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Wednesday, May 21, 2008
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gay Marriage Recycles Bad Idea
by Michael Medved
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Advocates for same-sex marriage should feel embarrassed by current efforts to recycle the three most discredited ideas of the “Free Love” Revolution of the 1960’s.

Most Americans look back at the radical notions of that rebellious and drug-soaked era with skepticism and discomfort, if not outright regret. The sweeping changes in intimate relationships may have provoked excitement some forty years ago, but those alterations produced so many painful costs in terms of shattered families, degraded culture and proliferation of sexually transmitted diseases that even the most enthusiastic revolutionaries have come to reconsider the advisability of encouraging copulation without consequences or standards.

Nevertheless, arguments for redefining marriage (including the shockingly shallow logic behind last week’s Supreme Court decision in California) rely on shamelessly silly assumptions from the Age of Aquarius without acknowledging their dysfunctional history and unwholesome origins. The case for legal sanction for gay unions relies on the notions that it’s beneficial to separate sex from child-bearing, that every intimate urge deserves respect and fulfillment, and that males and females count, ultimately, as interchangeable.

1. Separating Sex, Marriage and Procreation. The British poet Philip Larkin announced the new order in human relationships in unforgettable terms in his poem “Annus Mirabilis”:

Sexual intercourse began
In nineteen sixty-three
(which was rather late for me) -
Between the end of the Chatterley ban
And the Beatles' first LP

The principal facilitator for the new dispensation involved the development and dissemination of the birth control pill and other improved means of contraception. For the first time, young people could “go all the way” without fear of unintended, life-changing consequences. Legalized abortion (given Constitutional protection by Roe v. Wade in 1973) completed the explosion of the ancient association celebrated in another (anonymous) piece of poetry:

First comes love,
Then comes marriage,
Then comes Sally with a baby carriage.

The new ability to enjoy love without baby carriage also meant a new chance to indulge love without marriage… or a baby carriage without marriage, for that matter. The notion that Jr. ought to restrain himself or else he might get his best girl “in trouble” (and face a shotgun wedding) no longer carried weight. According to the core contention of the sexual revolution, intercourse represented a form of self-expression or even recreation, only occasionally (and unnecessarily) connected with procreation or long-term commitment. The result has been an explosion of out-of-wedlock birth (reaching 35% of all American new-borns in most recent numbers) with disastrous impact on poverty, crime and overall family stability.

Gay marriage won’t add to the out-of-wedlock birth rate (at least not directly) but it continues and advances the devastating disconnect of sex, marriage and babies. While society suffers from babies without marriage, gay matrimony guarantees marriage without babies. And while some heterosexual couples may prove as infertile, ultimately, as gay couples, only for a tiny minority of male-female marriages will there be the same certainty that exists for all homosexual relationships: that intimate expressions of affection can never produce progeny.

Yes, gay couples can raise kids who come to them through adoption or insemination, but in none of these relationships can there be an organic, physical, direct, causal connection between the love (and sex) exchanged between the partners and love for the progeny they produce – the very essence of a traditional marriage arrangement. With same sex union, the nature of marital sex receives a radical redefinition – disconnecting that intimacy from offspring even in a home where children may be present.

2. Following – and Honoring – Your Deepest Urges. Though I ought to be embarrassed to admit it, I actually hitch-hiked to San Francisco during the vaunted “Summer of Love” in 1967 and repeatedly encountered the slogan “If It Feels Good, Do It!” invoked with almost liturgical fervor. As an intrigued eye-witness to some of the public “Love Ins” and private social gatherings associated with that storied time and place, I can testify that this philosophy produced less fleeting fun, let alone long-term satisfaction, than widely assumed.

Every moralist, gay or straight, concedes that our passions – even the most deep-seated and undeniable urges—remain notoriously unreliable guides to happiness, productive relationships, and even long-term health. By supplanting the old imperative to “do your duty” with the new commandment “follow your heart,” the Love Generation embraced emotion as the standard for judging all intimate arrangements and explorations.

This new emphasis produced its most damaging impact not through the indulgence of new sexual alternatives, but with the exploding rate of divorce in the 1970’s. If marriage rested on feeling rather than obligation, it naturally proved more evanescent and disposable. Before the sexual revolution, many families might quietly hum the Righteous lyrics “We’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feeling,” but relatively few of them actually broke up their relationships. Commitment, tradition, honor and duty all helped to keep most couples together, even through difficult times.

Gay marriage serves to move matrimony even further toward the primacy of feeling. The chief argument for treating gay attraction as equally deserving of respect and support as man-woman-love is the depth, sincerity and undeniable nature of the passion that same sex partners feel for one another. The language promoting such couplings always emphasizes emotion rather than duty or commitment or tradition; same sex partners can hardly take their position in a long, sacred line of succession back to the beginnings of time. Yes, every society has included gay people but no civilization ever sanctioned gay marriages. Redefining matrimony as “an expression of love” rather than a public and profoundly consequential social contract damages the understanding of the institution for all elements of society.

3. Treating Male and Female as Interchangeable . Before John Gray and other astronomers of the intimate discovered the vast distance between Venus and Mars, before “Gender Feminists” revealed the natural superiority of women, before even Hollywood reconnected with the joys of girly-girls and manly men, the “Equity Feminists” of the ‘60’s and ‘70’s preached the interchangeable/indistinguishable nature of males and females. According to some psychological theorists of the prior generation, “gender” amounts to a socio-cultural construct, an artificial distinction meant to subjugate women. Enlightened pre-schools encouraged girls to play with trucks and forced boys to nurture dolls, confident in the expectation that kids of all genders would grow up equally adept as nurses and police officers, nuclear physicists and homemakers. Equality between men and women, according to the thinking of the time, meant the minimization of their intrinsic differences, and the erasure of the time-honored concept that each individual required a partner of the opposite gender for ultimate completion. The popular Ms. Magazine slogan, “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle” expressed the prevailing derision for the belief that both genders brought something distinctive, precious and irreplaceable to a relationship.

The promotion of gay marriage requires the same dismissal of gender differences: if a woman and a man bring utterly distinctive attributes to any marriage then same-sex unions lack the balance, the fusion-of-opposites energy, that constitute the very essence of male-female partnership. If men and women possess fundamental, unavoidable contrasts involving their physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual realities, then it’s ridiculous to claim that a male-male partnership is the same as a female-female partnership – let alone comparable to the combination of manly and feminine elements that characterize traditional marriage.

In a sense, the position of gay rights advocates has become contradictory. If replacing a bride with a second groom on the wedding cake makes no difference in the nature of the marriage, then a female partner is interchangeable with a male partner. And if the core differences between men and women count for so little, then it’s hard for homosexuals to claim that they can only feel attraction to their own gender. If men and women are, essentially, the same, then why can’t gay people choose opposite sex partners and spare us all the trouble of redefining the nature of marriage and upending the social order?

Despite politically correct protestations to the contrary, men and women remain, and will always remain, vastly and incurably different and for most homosexuals choosing a convenient opposite sex partner seems as unthinkable and unacceptable as my choosing another male. Science can’t fully explain the origins of homosexual impulses, but it’s a terrible mistake for defenders of traditional matrimony to describe it as a “lifestyle choice.” Most people – gay and straight alike – never choose their orientations, and every American deserves respect and liberty and privacy.

Insisting on equal rights for individuals, however, hardly requires the equal treatment of all relationships. The demand to recognize same sex unions as virtually identical to male-female marriage isn’t just a matter of extending an ancient, honorable institution to new customers. It is, rather, an unprecedented effort to redefine and restructure that institution at its very core and, in the process to breathe new life into three dysfunctional old ideas definitively discredited many years ago.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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Tacky-tacky
By adding polyester and disco to the equation the 70's showed the 60's how tacky their ideas really were.

Point 2
I particularly agree with point number 2. Even if I accept the premise that marriage is a social & legal construct (I happen to believe it's God's construct), the chief end of this construct is to protect women and their children. Despite our societies efforts to downplay the importance of men, it remains incredibly difficult for a single mother to make it on her own, as it has been for millenia. Marriage, the legal construct, provides women with a legal recourse should the primary (male) bread-winner decide he doesn't want to deal with his family any more.
The only reason a homosexual couple would require the protection of marriage is if they decide to have children (which is impossible outside of adoption or insemination). If our society is open to homosexual couples adopting, then we should also be open to providing legal protections should one partner decide to leave the other.
Opening up marriage to same sex partners essentially codifies the notion that marriage is primarily a "loving relationship" and secondarily "the foundation of the family", as oppose to the opposite.
Personally, I think it's most unfortunate that all of our cultural battles take place in courts. We have relinquished our morality to the government. Once we gave the state the authority to codify marriage, we gave the state the authority to define marriage.

The odd attack on adoptive mothers
If you happen to be an infertile woman who married the love of her life and adopted children and raised them as a family, Medved wants you to know your family doesn't really count. Well of course he doesn't really want you to know that. My guess is he doesn't even believe it. But he needs to say things that entail that claim to justify his arguments against homosexuals. After all, homosexuals getting married and raising families is about as opposite the free love tradition as one can imagine. And Medved is stuck arguing that black is white.

This is particularly clear with his other points. After all, homosexuals who marry are not engaging in anything goes attitudes. They are making committments. That is rather the point.

And it is not homosexuals who are claiming that men and women are interchangeable. They are acknowledging that for them their biology makes only people of the same sex suitable as partners for life. It is the idiots who argue that the freedom of gay men to marry women means they are not being discriminated against who are taking men and women to be interchangeable.

But this is the kind of nonsense one needs to engage in when one doesn't have serious arguments.

Thank You Leftover Hippies
Once again these Drug Addled Dinosaurs attempt to trash civilization. Hopefully, VERY SOON, their Decades of Drug Abuse will serve as The Yucatan Impact for them.

Gay Marriage
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Law's regarding marriage to include tax brakes are to encourage Propagation. My question is: Just what to Gays Propagate??

a shrug of the shoulders
what used to be a lightning rod for conservatives is now a mere footnote as you can see by the huge amount of posters on this thread.

i am not for gay marriage but i do notice that mass. has not been stricken from the earth.


bill
so if a heterosexual couple do not want to propagate should they be refused the right to marry?


Also,

decisions to engage in sodomy and other deviant sexual acts are entirely a choice. None of us have complete control of our thoughts, i.e. sexual orientation. However, by persistent effort we can increase our control of our thoughts. Consequently, those whose thoughts tend toward sexual excitement induced by members of the same sex can reduce the incidence of such thoughts occurring or being disturbing by deliberate effort on their part to change what they are thinking about.

housewar
" the chief end of this construct is to protect women and their children. "

his may have been true when women could not hunt or forage, or when they were denied jobs and other means of earning a living that ensured their independence and security. It's no longer true. Also, it doesn't provide a reason to bay gay marriage, as it doesn't prevent women from marrying men if they need that security for themselves and their children.

Many things in human societies become obsolete when they are no longer needed, like polygamy, execution for horse thievery, and chastity belts. It's a good thing.

You also said, " it remains incredibly difficult for a single mother to make it on her own, as it has been for millenia"

but this doesn't deprive women who can't make it on their own - it doesn't take men out of the hetero population.

Also, there will always be women (and men) who can't make it on their own - the solution is not to deprive others of their rights in order to correct the problem.

Housewar
You also said "Opening up marriage to same sex partners essentially codifies the notion that marriage is primarily a "loving relationship" and secondarily "the foundation of the family", as oppose to the opposite.

do you mean, then, that two people who either can't have children or don't want children should be deprived of the right to marry with all of its additional attendant rights?

Do you actually believe that the private, individual motives for marriage should be left up to the state and the government? Medved apparently does.


Lon
Whether you like it or not, marriage IS defined by who may participate. Feelings certainly enter into the equation but are not ultimately what defines a marriage. Maverick judges, "enlightened" legislatures, and official social tolerance cannot arbitrarily presume to redefine that which has been a settled matter since time immemorial.

I know of no one who would harass the settled lesbian couple that lives down the street. However we might congratulate ourselves on our live and let live ideals, nobody is fooled into thinking that that relationship is a marriage. It's an oddity, period, no matter how committed the women are to each other, no matter that they're great neighbors, no matter what.

Even the idea of "gay" adoption requires that somebody somewhere perform the ultimate act of physical intimacy between a man and a woman. It matters not at all that sperm banks and syringes or adoption agencies are the means of delivery for such couples, it changes nothing about how babies must still be conceived, and what kind of environment is best for them to grow and thrive.


Every point of contention have roots in
men's attitude and view of God. Mr. Medved would do himself a favor and begin here.

Mark 10:6 From the beginning of creation He mad them male and female.

The distinction began in the beginning not because man says so.

A confusion of this distinction leads to the evitable confusion between man and His creator.




Housewar
Marriage is should be legal institution only where the government is concerned. Any religious aspect of it should be strictly private. Laws regarding marriage were not made for religious reasons, and for ceneturies were not even recorded or noticed by the catholic church. State control of marriage came about because inheritances, usually in the form of land, needed to be recorded as families married for wealth, power, convenience, and as a means for joining groups together. Love and religion are a relatively modern idea, one which was antied up in the 19th and 20th centuries by the DeBeers industry.


Bill
"Correct me if I'm wrong"

Okay, you're wrong. Tax breaks for married people were not designed to encourage propogation, which they don't. The law declares that noone can be taxed twice, and marriage benefits are intended to make taxation more fair.

It's true that nobody wants to see a tax penalty for marriage, either, for the obvious reasons, but this should apply to both hetero- and homosexual unions.

think and housewar
Think, a well-written and relevant post, I would also like to add that even 100 years ago there were more reasons to promote huge families because medical care was nowhere close to what it is now, and out of a family of 6 or 7 children, at least two or three didn't make it to young adulthood. Children were also needed to work in factories and farms, and it wasn't until the waning years of the industrial revolution that that began to change.

So, Housewar, to call Marriage a concept of God is a luxury these days - in 1899 it was often a concept for cheap labor.

About Medved
The fact is, folks, that if same -sex marriage was an idea that was owned by the right wing Medved would be positing just as many arguments in its favor, and so would you.
If you look carefully at how various cultures have institutionalized (or repelled) homosexuality throughout history you could even make a cogent religious argument in favor of it.


What we believe about everything is entirely the result of when and where we were born, our immediate family, village, town, country, how we are raised, our hardwiring, our education (or lack of it) and our cultural influences.

None if it is free choice...the fact that some of you think it is only solidifies my point.

Housewar - one more point
You said, "Once we gave the state the authority to codify marriage, we gave the state the authority to define marriage"

I think you are partly right here, but the authority to define marriage was originally given to the church, because they kept the written records that were necesary for inheritance and tax records. Only gradually did they assume power of it on religious grounds.

The Christian church has always been notoriously homophobic, in fact in most places they condoned the death by torture of homosexuals (although interestingly, it some places, it was only homosexuals they felt to assume "female" roles - they didn't consider others to be actually gay)

I agree that government should not define marriage, wholeheartedly. Morality about homosexual marriage should be strictly private, as should be all things resulting from religious conviction, (Except things that overlap, like the basic "ten commandments" laws that were originally constructed to hold societies together anyway.)

Propagation & Tax
Can anyone tell me what "Gays" Propagate? As for a heterosexual couple decision not to have a child, the law is to "encourage" not mandate propagation. Why than do the laws give you a tax brake on each child, if not to encourage Propagation? Other laws have been added over the years to help in the support of mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers that for physical reasons can not support themselves and are dependent on their suns or daughters--by the way in this instance you don't have to be married, so Gays are eligble for this tax brake.

It seems to me
that we should all remember that right-wing columnists and radio jockeys pay their bills by promoting right wing ideas - it puts gas in their cars, koi in their private ponds, and hires the immigrants who mow their lawns.

Pure and honest ideology? Don't believe it.

Medved said
"gay matrimony guarantees marriage without babies."

this is just a deliberate lie. point made.

differences
Why does it matter that there is no 'organic' connection between the intimacy between partners and their children? Are couples that adopt now somehow 'lesser' than ones who can make their own children? Medved gasps with horror that there would be intimacy going on 'even in a house with children', in which the intimacy had nothing to do with those particular children. What absurdity. That is the case in hundreds of thousands of straight households that contain adopted children. These families are no less families, and they deserve no less protection.

Also, gay people don't treat gender as interchangeable. Most have an overpowering preference for a specific gender (that's the whole point, isn't it). It's the conservatives who say 'hey, you can just be with someone of the opposite gender, instead of the one you are attracted to!' who are stating that they are interchangeable. I have even heard people say that gay people have the right to marry--as long as they marry someone of the opposite gender. Again, it is conservatives, in this case, who are dismissing the importance of gender.

Lesbians are no less women than straight women, and they strongly believe in the differences between genders.


Bill
"Can anyone tell me what "Gays" Propagate?"

I'll tell you what gays "propogate" - when they adopt, they take in unwanted babies and older children that nobody else wants, and that you apparently prefer to see languishing in foster homes and institutions. In the course of raising their kids, they contribute to the local schools, the local economy, the tax base, and in most cases, the quality of the neighborhood.


You also said, "Why than do the laws give you a tax brake on each child, if not to encourage Propagation"

Because the government does not want to penalize families. Gay couples who adopt get the same tax breaks. Part of it is about fairness, which is the law.

I already answered you on this question.



JGP
"Mark 10:6 From the beginning of creation He mad them male and female."

The Christian creation myth is a cozy little picture, but if God is all powerful and responsible for everything (the premise of creationism, no?) then why did he create homosexuals in every part of the animal world?

Are you saying he slipped up?

AliveinHim
Actually most people who know people in same-sex marraiges are "fooled" into thinking they are real marriages. That is why the attempts to repeal same-sex marriage in Massachusetts fizzled once they became a reality.

It is generally the people who talk about the lesbian couple down the street as if they were some foreign species to be avoided that take their marriage to be phony.

In the long run there really isn't even much of a debate here. Acceptance of gay marriage is directly correlated with age. Since young people generally have grown up with more familiarity with actual homosexuals, they are more likely to be mystified as to why they should be excluded from marriage. But older people who remember when being gay was something to be hidden still hold those prejudices.

The debate is really what kind of protection homosexuals deserve while waiting for the people who grew up without the bigotry to grow up.

Because the discrimination is so silly, the shift in public perception has been much swifter than with race or gender. It is not surprising that the people left behind are feeling a bit of whiplash.

Animal Girl
Terrific post!

I wish I had written it.

Spelling
Yes it should read "Son" and not "sun"--you get 2 points.

Bill
Please start spelling 'break' correctly, you're making me go crazy.

When people take care of each other, they have less need of the government. It is in our interest, especially if we want smaller government, to encourage people to take responsibility for one another, whether they plan to have children or not. The government should ALWAYS encourage people's efforts to take responsibility for others.

Gay marriage furthers, in a small way, smaller government, and the idea that people should take care of their loved ones and not look to government.

Also, I have to point out what others have--gay marriage is the OPPOSITE of the free love ethic; many gay people do NOT want to separate sexual intimacy from lifelong commitment, which is why they want to marry. It is people like Medved who want to push them into sex outside of commitments.

AliveinHim
"presume to redefine that which has been a settled matter since time immemorial"

You're just wrong here. Many cultures have been observed to not only condone but honor gay marriages the same as differing sex marriages. It keeps peace, and they can avail themselves of the strengths and contributions that are not diminished by one's gender preferences.

The horror and fear of gay marriage is basically a gift of the Judeo-Christian tradition; I suspect it was originally a way of retaining power in large tribes.

Animal Girl
About your last post: This is one of the ways that conservative views are actually an argument for gay marriage, but nowadays people just seem to grab onto echo-chamber ideas.

This happens on both the left and the right, it's that phenomenon of hearing a new way of looking at things, and then looking at the guy next to you to decide what you think about it.

Duty vs. Do it
Statistically speaking what sort of people raise the best quality human beings. Determined by crime, drug addiction, suicide victims, work-ethic, alcoholism etc.

Someone explain to me why homos want to be married.

Are these people going to be taking their adopted children to their x-rated parade orgies. Sounds like great parenting to me.

These people are really sex addicts. I've had both males and females hit on me in very filthy ways.I've never had straight men talk to me like that.

*Lon*, morals are set in stone. You all have made up your own morality that floats about willy-nilly. You can not argue in morals since you don't really have any. Because tomorrow they will have changed.

Disasterbabe
You asked, "The Christian creation myth is a cozy little picture, but if God is all powerful and responsible for everything (the premise of creationism, no?) then why did he create homosexuals in every part of the animal world?


If you REALLY want to look at homosexual activity in animals, you'll have to acknowledge:
1. It is a behavior which will never produce offspring - therefore does not have a generational effect.

2. If "gay" animals don't have offspring - then the fact you see such activity would imply it's a genetic defect (at Darwin would say).

3. Lastly (the CORRECT answer) animal behavior is not attributed to sexual activity - rather method of showing dominance. Male dogs mount another to male to show dominance. Male monkeys mount other males, likewise, to show the power and order of their group. Apologists like yourself wanting to attack Christians don't understand these issues. Perhaps if you were to take a minute to educate yourself you might not be such a ... disaster.

King Liberal
You ask, "Has a single conservative sneator or house rep taken the floor and made a speech about this issue? No.

Ask yourselves why that is.



ANSWER: The American People overwhelmingly have spoken (by voting) to support the traditional definition of Marriage. It has been the COURTS (not politicians, not voters) which have overturned the will of the people.

The solution is not more speeches from the floor of the Senate. The solution (for those who oppose same-sex marriage) is to amend the State Constitution to stop these judges. Signatures already submitted to the California legislature to get this amendment on the ballot.

Any other questions KL?

King
I also think the writing is on the wall. Paleo, cro-magnin conservatives who ardently believe in the "homo" mythology will always be part of the society, but at least on this issue they are dwindling in number. I think it is also a class - phenomena in a way; it is mostly among the educated classes that views are changing, specifically the younger kids just leaving college who have other, more important priorities.

I also think that the change comes more from the middle class since those are the neighborhoods where a larger proportion of gays settle down and raise their families. Statistically, gays have more discretionary income than other groups and are more likely to adhere to middle class values.

In a way, It's not unlike the civil changes we have seen along racial lines...as people become familiar with it, they are less threatened, and the old neanderthal ideas like Joycey's fall away.

Years ago a friend of mine, (Jewish) married a college professor (African-American) and they joined a discussion group of other inter-racial couples to talk about their problems. The group folded, because the biggest problems always seemed to be about who was going to take out the garbage.


My point is that fear like Joycey's comes from unfamiliarity, which breeds superstition and imagined dangers.

Let us hope that people

who follow Jesus remember that Jesus taught that marriage was between a male and a female. Let us also hope that they will vote according to Jesus' teachings when the subject is so-called "same-sex marriage".

It Takes Both Sexes
It takes both sexes to naturally reproduce, even if not all both-sex couples produce children. Which sex is irrelevant? Men or women? Aren't both important? Marriage is about uniting both sexes and providing that joint parenting to the next generation.

Marriage is the only institution where the left thinks it is okay to exclude women.

As for homosexuality in nature... there's diabetes and cancer in nature, too.

http://walrus.blogtownhall.com/2008/05/17/why_marriage_matt ers.thtml

Disasterbabe - exposes herself
You wrote, "Paleo, cro-magnin conservatives who ardently believe in the "homo" mythology will always be part of the society, but at least on this issue they are dwindling in number. I think it is also a class - phenomena in a way; it is mostly among the educated classes that views are changing, specifically the younger kids just leaving college who have other, more important priorities."


In effect you have identified yourself as a left-wing elitist and bigot. You call people who view society from a moral lense uneducated, cro-magnin dwindling species. And the "enlightend" crowd are the young college graduates.

Thank for at least putting a bit of who you really are into your posts. Context is definitely important.

And wow - how amazing this cro-magnin male has figured out how to use this complicated lighted box and small buttons to post a message. Back to the cave for me!

Disasterous Ideas
These three ideas that were promoted back in the hippy days have done one thing. They have cheapened love.

Fast-food Marr-ivorces and Birth Control Abortions are a direct result of our dollar store mentality on love.

We get what we pay for. Free love is most definitely cheap.


disaster babe
Nice name. I've been around. New Orleans, Bourbon Street, Mardi Gras. Let's celebrate our gayness. Let's not be naive. It's not fear nor old-fashioned thinking it's pity. Your dreaming.

Disasterbabe
Name that culture or those cultures which legitimized homosexual couplings, please. Rome and Greece certainly tolerated it but so far as I can see it was just as much a circus then as it is now. Nothing new, there.

Homosexuality not a choice? What about Anne Heche-Ellen DeGeneres' former partner, now married to a man? How "gay" does one have to be to be genuine?

And Lon
Two lesbians thinking they're married doesn't make it so. Does my believing the sky is green make it so, even if I'm sincere down to my bones about it? Further, who really thinks about the lesbians down the street, is my point. And anyway, aren't people entitled to their own opinions about them?

I've known and do know gay people who are in relationships. They do in fact consider themselves "married". My own mother was in such a relationship and she and her partner considered each other to be "spouses" but that didn't make it so. Two becoming one flesh requires that the parts fit-both physically and psychologically.

I'm not kidding myself about the effects of homosexual "marriage" upon my own marital status. It is basically nil. What is concerning is that we have got to the point where feelings are a legitimate part of defining that which truly constitutes marriage.

Observation
So, it is the stance of those on this blog and Medved, that only benefits are given to those who agree with your personal subjective view of life and how to live that life?

It is also your stance that murderers, pedophiles, thieves, et.al. are bestowed the right to marry, just not the gays; that gay behavior is worst than any other behavior in life; you're okay with a child being molested, rape, stealing, abortionists, etc. since all these individuals can be married as man/wife. Even those on death row are approved for such a choice of marriage.

It is also your stance that you do not endorse the Constitution of this nation that promotes individual civil liberty by which personal choice, ownership of choice, accountability of choice and responsibility of choice are forfeit to those who don't agree with your personal subjective view of life and how to pursue personal happiness.

Excellent - you're sounding more like liberals all the time - the more you can control others behavior the better you think your life will be.

Good for you.

Animal Girl
"Why does it matter that there is no 'organic' connection between the intimacy between partners and their children?
---------
You ask "Why does it matter?"- I would ask "Does it matter?". If it does matter, then Medved is right. End of discussion.

However, if it doesn't matter (as you suggest), then you are basically telling adopted children that the wound they feel from being adopted doesn't matter. Please explain to us all why their wound doesn't matter.

God invented marriage
God invented marriage and so he has the copyright on it. If gays want to unify, they should use a different name, because its not marriage. It is one woman and one man for the Biblical purpose of bringing about a holy seed. (see Malachi). Therefore childbearing, while not essential to marriage, is an integral part of its purpose. If anyone in society should get marital protections, it should be hetersexual couples who have taken marriage vows, and contribute future taxpayers and workforce in our society. Its true, children are the future.

Goat
Considering that "gays" tend to earn more than the average bear, are not denied the right to vote, to have credit, and can live their lives pretty much along the same level as the rest of us, etc. etc., just how are they being discriminated against? Who cares?

Why do we have laws against polygamy, polyamory, incest?

That one man/one woman thing sure gets in the way, doesn't it?

Lon in CA...seriously
Why do you and so many others harp on and on and ON about procreation?
1. There is no shortage of procreation among human beings. In fact, we are losing sustainability because there might be too much!

2. Procreation obviously can be done by the stupidest animal and the worst human beings. That's not as important as NURTURING life AFTER procreation. And gays and lesbians are not devoid of that ability. Our society does benefit directly and indirectly from the productivity of gay people in OTHER areas of life.

3. Which brings me to the way that you're virtually talking about gay people as if not much elevated above chimps. And indictment that black men were painted with and the main goal behind Jim Crow.

4. Gay people have THE most important characteristics that support a fair and successful society. Compassion, intellect, courage, patience and civility and most of all LOVE. Gay parents don't love their children or parents or siblings any less.
THOSE are qualities beyond procreation that matter. And I shouldn't have to tell you that.
The dehumanization of gay men and women here and the reduction of their commitment and love for each other to less than the moral potential of heterosexuals is truly appalling.
I haven't seen sophist reductions like this of an INDIGENOUS human group SINCE material printed to maintain the most horrific and brutal institutions humankind has known.
You are some SICK people if you want to revisit THAT history again.

Scooter and his strawman
ScooterNYC writes, "It is also your stance that murderers, pedophiles, thieves, et.al. are bestowed the right to marry, just not the gays; that gay behavior is worst than any other behavior in life; you're okay with a child being molested, rape, stealing, abortionists, etc. since all these individuals can be married as man/wife. Even those on death row are approved for such a choice of marriage.


Scooter - you're attempting (poorly) to tie together gay marriage and the activities of criminals. No one is suggesting gays be locked-up because they're gay. No one is suggesting gays can't enjoy their lifestyle, participate in whatever type of relationship they seek. The objection is the legitimizing of same-sex marriage.

Follow along here:

Gay criminals convicted of child molestation = bad.

Straight criminals convicted of child molestation = bad.

Murderers - whatever their sexual orientation = bad.

MARRIAGE does not have a prerequisite of one being innocent or guilty of any crimes... simply it consists of *A* man and *A* woman. Nice attempt at labeling those who support traditional marriage as hypocrites.

AliveinHim...
You would ask stupid and rhetorical questions as if they haven't been answered.
Why don't YOU answer a few? You sound resentful if a gay person earns gainfully. You sound like the Nazis who resented Jewish prosperity.
'Along the same level' isn't the same level. If it were, then there would be NO bans of gay people from ANY free association that heterosexuals have. Especially because gay men and women are the children, siblings, parents of heterosexuals.
THAT sure gets in the way, doesn't it? And obviously YOU care.
But being that you're too intellectually sloven to give the idea much thought, just stupid questions, you don't care much about American history and it's context with discrimination.
Polygamists CHOOSE to be. And for each man with five wives, there are four men without one.
That makes the situation imbalanced and unfair and nothing to do with being gay.
You got served and answer, now go eat it.

AliveinHim
I am suspicious of the statistics indicating that gays earn more than the average bear. There is, after all, nothing about homosexuality that naturally makes one a better bread winner.

A more likely explanation is that people who make money are more likely to be in position to come out of the closet. That is to say that openly homosexual people are likely to make more money than closeted ones. And since homosexuality does not adversely affect earning power, they will show up as more successful in such studies.

It is possible that homosexuals actually do make more, and then maybe we should look into what it is about homosexuals that the rest of us should emulate. But because the disparity can be explained by the attitudes towards homosexuals it may be too early to start thinking about trying to emulate the homosexuals in this way.

Medved And Going To Bed
When I read articles like this I think about Diane Keaton in Woody Allen's movie "Sleeper." After agreeing to have sex Keaton directs Woody Allen to a machine called the orgasmatron which substitutes for physical contact. When he complains she remarks that, "People have no problems with sex in our culture, we are all frigid."
The idea that two consenting adults enjoying sex together, whether married or not, is somehow indecent and/or immoral is fundamentally flawed. It is an assumption that continues to permeate our society even though sex without procreation is generally a pleasurable and healthy experience. What is unhealthy is our perception that government is qualified to impose regulations upon a joyful human experience.
I would be careful of following Medved's advise too closely. There is nothing more volatile that someone who is sexually, frustrated.

Joycey
If your point is that true morality doesn't change over time, then I certainly agree. If your point is that what people thought was moral 50 years ago or 2000 years ago is more accurate than what we think is moral today, then that seems like nonsense.

After all 2000 years ago slavery was accepted as moral, and 50 years ago open racism was. But you are right that since discrimination against homosexuals is wrong today, it was always wrong in the past as well.

As for your other questions, homosexuals want to get married because they value committment. My guess would be that homosexuals will not start taking their children to orgies because they have gained the right to marry. That seems a rather odd thing to think.

Are you actually suggesting that Lesbians are more sexually driven than heterosexual men? Or are you saying that you have been hit on by both lesbians and gay men? (If the latter you may be dressing in an odd way).

As a heterosexual male I find the idea that lesbians are more sexually driven than we are somewhat unlikely.

Jon...so why then?
Okay Jon, the point isn't what you think the more marginally bad members of society are for marriage. The point is, the law gives them that freedom.
Comparing gay people to such elements isn't fair or right.
And YOU obviously believe the requisite for marriage is procreation. Actual children notwithstanding in a home with gay parents.
You slapped on labels conveniently enough.
But run when someone comes at you with one.
Gay people support traditional marriage too.
You just don't say WHICH traditional ones yourself, Jon.

The traditional marriage that gay people support is the current one that states two, non related consenting adults will be the primary custodian of the other.
In no way does the intent and purpose of marriage change at all. And not even radically.
It's the COUPLE that can be included. It's the legitimacy of MARRIAGE and gay people knowing their responsibility to it that makes it right to include them.
You're not fooling anybody, Jon.
And so what if a majority of people displayed their common prejudice. They did regarding slavery, and Jim Crow and women's integration too.
So?
So there is a history of wholesale discrimination of a particular group of people who don't choose their human condition.
Still doesn't MAKE YOU RIGHT.

Jon in CA
Jon, it appears YOU don't know what you're talking about when you discuss homosexuality in the animal kingdom. Yes, dogs might hump to show dominance, but in Bonobo chimps (who are genetically SO SIMILAR to us that many scientists say they rightly belong in the same genus as humans, and it is only emotionalism that makes us keep them in the pan genus, since we want to see ourselves as more different than other apes that we in reality are), homosexuality is extraordinarily common and normally has much more to do with bonding within large groups and diffusing tense situations.

about Anne Heche
She's from a situation burdened by prejudice towards gay men and women. Her family was dysfunctional because of her father's disclosure of his homosexuality and subsequent death from AIDS. And like so many of you like to assert, her brother thought he'd INEVITABLY die of AIDS and took his own life at age 19.
She was deeply affected by these losses. And her emotional stability is fragile.
Her mother's side of the experience was quickly exploited by the FRC and Anne herself is now divorced and having custody battles with her son's father.
A good deal of this tragedy could have been averted were the animus against gay people not so deep.
ELLEN on the other hand, is a very happy, successful and popular woman. She's with a hot beauty I bet YOU wish you could have and the DeGeneres's and I know Ellen's mother personally, are very kind and charitable people.
Anne has problems, and they are sad for her. But the legacy of bigotry is the root of it. It's the root for a lot of things that wouldn't have happened to decent and productive gay people but for the way so many of you talk.
The legacy of INSTITUTIONALIZED bigotry has scarred MILLIONS in this country with less than a generation to heal from it.
If they ever do. Marriage equality will serve what's GOOD about this country. We already know what happens when you don't turn that institution around.

AliveinHim
Also, this two becoming one flesh thing is not actually part of the definition of marriage from time immemorial. After all monogomous marriage is kind of the johnny come lately, not polygamy.

I have always had the sense that the two become one flesh idea was divised only after Catholic theologians started taking their vows of chastity. It is hard to see why people who have actually had sex would take it seriously.

aliveinHim
"Name that culture or those cultures which legitimized homosexual couplings, please. "

There isn't enough room on these kinds of threads, where all wisdom is supposed to be expressed in a bumper sticker, but I'll give you a large example Among many North American Indian cultures homosexuality was given a role and not forbidden or despised. Generally, the cultural attitudes towards it have more to do with people who feel threatened, or feel they have something to lose by it. Minority status does not, by itself, lead to prejudice, discrimination or repression.

Spanish and French (Catholic) explorers and missionaries who visited the New World quickly became awayre of Indian men who dressed as women and engaged in homosexual relations. One preist who observed hte Iroquios wrote:

"They have an excess of effiminacy and lewdness. These men are unashamed to wear women's clothing and practice all the occupations of women. They believe this comes from their religion."

Sound familiar?

Indians who practiced not only gender switching but homosexuals who kept male identities included not only the Iroquois, but various northern california tribes, plains indians and Northeastern seaboard indians.

righminded gal is correct
The first marriage, between Adam and Eve, was not some accidental social construct. It was ordained of God, and may have even been performed by Him. If not, it was certainly performed by one authorized by Him. Thus, marriage is born of religion. And 4,000 years of Judaism, plus 2,000 years of Christianity, plus several Eastern moral traditions, have consistently advocated hetero marriage and have consistently condemned homo activities. Now, 4 judges in California have unilaterally declared: "We are wiser than the people of California and we are wiser than 4,000 years of moral traditions with respect to marriage." What incredible hubris. What an anti-democratic usurpation of power. What a sad day this is.

more for you AliveinHim
The gender-switching indians were called "Berdaches", a word originated by the french, and they adopted the clothing, occupational specializations, mannerism, and speech patterns of the opposite gender. Male to female berdaches abstained from hunting and warfare and instead wove baskets, pounded acorns, dressed and tanned hides, quilled, and worked in the fields.

Female to Male berdaches did the opposite - they wore male clothing, carried guns, and joined the men in hunting and tribal warfare. Cocopa Indian girls were observed by missionaries to "play with boys, make bows and arrows, and had their noses pierced as men did. They married women."

Joycey The Moral
There is a big difference between morality that is set in stone and morality that is a mindset. I wonder if you can distinguish between the two. I have dealt with gay clients for many years, some of whom have children from past marriages. If anything, they are overly concerned about the welfare of their children and worry too much about their lives.
What part of your morality code encourages you to make such derogatory remarks about an entire class of people? My guess is you have a very delicate sense of what constitutes proper conduct which has little to do with morality.

Part three - Alive
Not every berdache was totally transgendered. A Klamath Indian woman was observed to marry another woman but continued to wear women's clothing. Male Berdaches of the Pima and Navaho tribes did not cross-dress even though they often (but not always) did both kinds of work.

I could go on and on, Alive, and talk about cultures all over the world that accepted and valued their homosexual citizens, but as I said, TH is not exactly meant for information.


Jon in CA
There's no "strawman", I merely point out that even though the examples I've presented with regard to what you call "bad behavior" of murder, stealing, child molestation, rape and others are given the privilege of being able to marry.

Are you attempting to deny that someone, the likes of Jeffrey Dalhmer(sp) would have been denied the right to get married to a woman?

Are you attempting to deny that someone the likes of Hitler (if a citizen here) would have been denied the right to marry?

We can example this all day long - you just don't like being presented with the reality of your choices of a subjective life.

You personally and subjectively decided that all these other behaviors, illegal or not, are given the right to marry, while gays are not. You are subjectively deciding that gay behavior is wrong, when it has NEVER been your place to make such decisions for others.

You do understand what it means to be subjective rather than objective about something I hope.

du
"The legacy of INSTITUTIONALIZED bigotry has scarred MILLIONS in this country with less than a generation to heal from it.
If they ever do. Marriage equality will serve what's GOOD about this country."
--------------

Fill us in here a little. What do you mean exactly by INSTITUTIONALIZED bigotry?

Right-minded gal
"God invented marriage and so he has the copyright on it. "

If you want to believe that, it's your right, but don't state it as though it were fact.

Here's a more substantiated piece of information: Virtually all fathers of the early Christian church - as interpreters of Gods intention, of course, like yourself, - Gregory of Nazantius, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, Jerome, etc., etc., praised all virginity and looked upon all sex with horror.Terullian said that sex - all violations of chastity - was "worse than death."
Ambrose described those who lost their virginity under any circumstances as "worse than devils". I could write hundreds of examples.

Just thought I'd point out that your ideas about "God inventing marriage" don't come out of thin air - they have a serious history in the mysogeny and sex-phobic traditions of Christianity.

Homosexuality is not just
a cause it is a symptom of God's judgement on people and society.

The Book of Romans teaches clearly that when men choose to ignore God, He turns them over to debase themselves with practices like Homosexuality. According to the God of the Bible, Homosecuality is a debase practice intended to make men ashamed and hopefully turn them to the God they've chosen to exclude from their thinking.

A difficult job and pathetic commentary when the society and culture glories in the very thing God wants men and women to be ashamed of.


Rightmindedgirl
If God really did invent marriage, as you seem to think, he must not have thought it was a very good idea, as he waited 40,000 years to put it into practice.

Also Jon
You fail to understand what it means to have civil liberties in our nation whereby each person can individually decide his or her personal pursuit of happiness, with no interference from you, thank you very much.

Legitimize? Awfully subjective language for something that does not require or desire you "legitimizing" it.

Legalizing it is what we're talking about - individual civil liberty whereby another’s subjective idea of life is not imposed.

Perhaps you don't like the idea of civil liberty, personal choice and freedom, is this your premise? Do you prefer to control people’s behavior? I should have asked to be certain.

lon
"I am suspicious of the statistics indicating that gays earn more than the average bear. "


Lon, when I read these statistics it wasn't a reflection of being gay, it had more to do with the fact that at that time, they didn't have families and children to support, were generally single and had to be self-supporting.

Im sure you've noticed, especially in the last couple of years, how many ads for upscale cars and interiors are clearly directed towards gays...and not just upscale, you've seen the VW ads, haven't you?

Gays are seen as a viable market with discretionary income that advertisers want to target.

Normalizing behavior that isn't normal
Important to remember:
Legitamizing the nice middle-aged homely ladies down the street will also legitamize the creepers with myriad partners hanging out on the beach. Let's not forget the groups of ladies in public restrooms. I've witnessed both. Why normalize unnatural and depraved behavior?

Ken
"Marriage is the only institution where the left thinks it is okay to exclude women."

What an odd statement. Do you really believe that only men are gay?


JGP
You speak of this god as though you know for sure and have authority. Does it occur to you that this is simply your personal way of living your life?

Why must you impose it on others in any legal sense?

Is it not enough that you are able and free to believe in whatever god, fairies, unicorns, etc. you choose without retribution from society?

Belief in god is subjective and personal in both experience and emotion, it has no authority over any except those that choose for it to be their guide, but they do so personally and not legally. You are most certainly welcome and free to do so.

disaster babe, huh?
I wouldn't call these men the fathers of the early Christian church. Christ is the author of Christianity, and the early apostles (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul) were the authorized leaders of the early Christian church. Their views are not ambiguous: Avoid fornication, let every man have a wife and let every woman have a husband.

Joycey
"Why normalize unnatural and depraved behavior?"

Do you think heterosexuals never practice "innatural and depraved behavior"?

Then, you would also be for outlawing heterosexuality would you not? Just like the Christian fathers?

Joycey
"Normalizing behavior that isn't normal"

So, you've decided what is normal for you and perhaps some of your friends who share such ideas and you think this makes you right, correct and authority of such?

Where did you come by such ideas of what is "normal"?

How was it decided for you what is "normal"?

Could it be that both of these questions are answered, "because you personally decided it".

If so, then does this not make your decisions subjective?

You do understand what it means to be subjective rather than objective, correct?


Jon in CA
"In effect you have identified yourself as a left-wing elitist and bigot. You call people who view society from a moral lense uneducated, cro-magnin dwindling species."

I never did any such thing, and you know it. I have nothing against people who view society from a moral lens, and I think cro-magnon views apear everywhere.

If it makes you nervous to think about American issues as having a "class" component, we really are miles apart. We may not like it, but America is a very class-conscious, class-structured society - it's at the heart of what conservatives resent about "BMW driving, white-wine drinking, elitist" liberals - a class attack if there ever was one - we pretend that we're not, but it drives everything. The conservative-liberal polarization is essentially a class war.

THradio
" wouldn't call these men the fathers of the early Christian church. Christ is the author of Christianity"

TH, Christ didn't "author" anything - I think those are just comfy words. He's like Socrates, he is only quoted.

The early church fathers were the first Christians who formed the hierarchal structure of the church and, more importantly, the body of dogma and belief that formed it's rules and structure and was, for the most part, borrowed from the platonists and Neo-Platonists, a popular pagan philosophy of that time.

Jon in CA
I just want to clarify what I said in my last post, when I said that the conservative-liberal polarization is essentially a class war".

I'm talking about perception, mostly - I'm not saying that one class is superior over another. I want to make that clear.

I think it's true that groups of people are devided by their incomes - we see that all the time, but they are also divided by attitudes, mores, beliefs which are sometimes (but not always) confused with class.

Jon - the moral lens
We tend to think of our laws against murder, theivery, etc. as existing because they are moral, but they really exist because they keep society from falling apart, as they should. They are the glue that hold us together.

Laws against gays and gay marriage do not work for the cohesion of society, or keep it from exploding - they have no practical purpose except for those who think God doesn't like it. There are probably plenty of people who think God doesn't like it when we miss church - should we make a law against it?

disaster babe, you are delirious
Saying that Christ is not the author of Christianity is akin to saying that your screen name is not disasterbabe. It is one of the most preposterous statements I have read in decades. What is next? That night is day and day is night? Have you even read the New Testament?
Try reading John 8:58, for starters.


OK Du
Tell me how gays are prohibited in any way from associating with others? So they can't be Scoutmasters. So what? Why don't they form their own groups and quit trying to force themselves where they are not qualified to be? Why should anyone be compelled to associate with anyone else?

As to earning gainfully, what exactly is your point? Our household earns a tidy six figures, thank you, we live in a nice home, so upon what grounds do you imply I'm jealous? I admire anyone who has the grit to overcome real obstacles and become successful, and would even if I were as poor as the proverbial churchmouse-which is how I grew up.

I suggest you quit listening to the liberals' theology of victimology as well as taking your own gay self soooo seriously. I promise you'll feel better.


Disasterbabe
I'm in the middle of housecleaning so excuse my absences.

You are correct that many "native" populations had their share of effeminate men. They were tolerated like one tolerates the flies in August but were usually forced to do womens' work since that's what they "felt" they were. They were never respected by the warriors as being on an equal plane.

Now you don't need to list every culture that exalted homosexuality. Just a few will do. Or am I right after all and you just don't want to admit it?

Aliveinhim
No one would suggest that gays are incapable of starting their own groups or scouts or whatever.

The problem is that when pluralistic tax dollars are used to support individualist ideology, we have a Constitutional problem.

If just christians want to support the Boy Scouts and thereby making it possible for it to become a private business and then can subject it's members or employees to certain standards, I think that's great. Whether anyone agrees or not with their philosophy or discrimination is irrelevant. They would then be free to do so as a private business.

Now, I know often many want to cite the other numerous programs, both liberal and conservative, that abscond with pluralistic tax dollars allocating to non-agreed programs rooted in ideology; I agree that these are not appropriate given our Constitution and the idea of individual civil liberty.

Scooter NYC try to follow along here....
Marriage - the union of one man + one woman.

Has NOTHING to do with ethnicity, criminal history, mental competence, or any other distraction you wish to interject.

One Man + One Woman

And YES - Gay CAN marry ... a person of the opposite sex.

And NO - straight people can NOT marry someone of the same sex either.

Gee - for being so enlightened you seem to have a hard time understanding this relatively simple idea.

AliveinHim
No, Alive, homosexuals were not "tolerated" in the examples I gave - they were allowed to contribute to their societies in the way in which they were bestsuited. It was beneficial to the prospperity and harmony of the larger group. And they were not "forced" to do the work of the opposite sex - if you read my posts at all carefully you would note that many did the work of both sexes but they were allowed to choose. There is also nothing in the written record to indicate that they were not respected by warriors - many of them were warriors, as I said. And, contrary to what you would like to think, many of the men who were gay were not effeminate - it was mostly those who wanted to fill transgendered roles.

As for your question, no, you are not right. You are citing what you want to think, I was citing the first-hand observations of missionaries and explorers.

I think you read into my facts what you need to believe - we don't give up our prejudices easily, do we?

Jesus said marriage is between

a man and a woman. I will believe Him.

Jon in CA to Scooter NYC
"Gee - for being so enlightened you seem to have a hard time understanding this relatively simple idea. "

The problem on TH seems to be that the once it becomes apparent that a simple idea is really not so simple as people would like, there is no way to seriously debate it.

THRadio
"Saying that Christ is not the author of Christianity is akin to saying that your screen name is not disasterbabe. "

With all due respect, TH, I think we are coming from two entirely separate points of view, faith vs. fact.

Never makes for a satisfactory discussion.

disaster
your history lessons are a disaster

THRadio
But here's another interesting fact about early Christians: The marcionite Christians were celibate, and the followers of Valentinius - the most famous being Origen - castrated themselves.

DU in California
You said, "The traditional marriage that gay people support is the current one that states two, non related consenting adults will be the primary custodian of the other."


DUH!

And polygamist will say, "Traditional marriage is one that states consenting adults ...."

And Pedophiles will say, "consent between adult and consenting child...."

And and and....

What you, and every other apologist worried about the poor poor people left out of ONE man + One woman - is that WE (the majority) decide what rules are acceptable and what is not. Disagree all you want ... but it will come down to vast majority of individuals voting to preserve the tradition this country has held: marriage = one man + one woman.

Hence - why California will have on the ballot a measure to modify the State Constitution to reflect the will of the citizens (where I will be voting).

And to let you know... GAY folks can marry a person of the opposite sex. Straight people can NOT marry someone of the same sex. Equal application of the law.

p.i.
Well, then, if you think my facts are wrong you must be able correct them, with sources, I'm sure.

Otherwise you wouldn't throw out such an ad hominem attack, would you?

Tell me where I'm wrong.

disaster
without context, you can make your history lessons teach us anything you want.

"marcionite Christians"

"followers of Valentinius"

you make it sound like these guys can be equated with modern conservative or evangelical Christians...when an honest analysis of history would demonstrate otherwise.

"castrate themselves" -- another ancient practice you seem to try and legitimize by attaching it to "early Christians". First, many of them were attempting to be noble devotees through castration...whether they were successful is another argument. Second, it was not a common/widespread practice...in the voluntary sense at least.

disaster
you ask for sources without giving any credible ones yourself...wow, love your honest approach to debate...very endearing.

Scooter
Nobody is compelled by taxation to support the Boy Scouts, or for that matter, the Masons, who also have a written code of conduct. You are free to contribute or not as you will through their fundraisers or even just by dropping a check into the mail. That is the difference between the Scouts and, say, Americorps. We all have to pay our taxes whether or not we like it that yet another "volunteer" program is funded by our tax dollars.

"Just Christians" DO support the Scouts in many communities, and subsequent to that, many churches host their own troops. Ours does through its dayschool, but it is not funded by the offerings of the congregation.

It's no different than the Scouts meeting at the local schoolhouse. No tax monies go to support the Scouts therein, but the parents of those Scouts DO pay the taxes that built and maintain the building and have every right to expect that the building they paid for is avaioable to them for extra-curricular groups.


Animal girl
You write, "homosexuality is extraordinarily common and normally has much more to do with bonding within large groups and diffusing tense situations."

Again - the application of "intent" on animal homosexuality is based on observation and THEORY (unless animals speak to you and discuss these matters?). Behavorists have long held such animal behavior revolve around dominance and societal order in the group.

But simply reaching a conclusion that homosexuality exists in the animal kindom therefore Gay Marriage should be codified is ridiculous.

Male lions will kill their own young. Legalize child murder?

Certain female insects/spiders eat the males after sex. Legalize cannabolism?

Gee It all makes so much sense! (eyes rolling)


How did the California Supreme

Court use reason to equate sodomy and other deviant sexual acts with traditional marriage?

How does anyone equate the two?

disaster
for example you say, "The early church fathers were the first Christians who formed the hierarchal structure of the church and, more importantly, the body of dogma and belief that formed it's rules and structure and was, for the most part, borrowed from the platonists and Neo-Platonists, a popular pagan philosophy of that time."

A vague first phrase makes your point more compelling in the end...to say the least. What you left out was the reality that the structure of the church pre-dates the "fathers" you mention...if you are specifically referring to the capital-C Catholic Church's hierarchal development, your point becomes more valid. The body of dogma you refer to, namely the Bible, pre-dates them as well...through councilary meetings they defended the collected works against heretical or contradictory works and eventually agreed to close the canon of Scripture for long-term protection against heresies. And, your "for the most part" statement is so vague that I'm spitting blood out of my eyes trying to understand where and what you are trying to say with the comment.

Most readers will notice

that the lack of reason is demonstrated in the arguments for those who desire to equate sodomy and other deviant sexual acts with traditional marriage.

Although the burden of proof is on the affirmative, instead of offering proof or reason in support of their advocacy of deviance they instead try to refute those who support the status quo. This is probably because neither facts, faith or reason support equating sodomy and other deviant sexual behaviors with traditional marriage.

Jon in CA
LOL so I'm not the first parent of teenagers who hasn't considered the possibility of eating my own young....


p.i.
"you ask for sources without giving any credible ones yourself"

Ok. I'll give you my sources, then you will correct my history with your sources, right? Agreed?

SOURCES:

Ruth Landes, "The Ojibway of Canada"
"The Prairie Potowatomi: Tradition and Ritual in the Twentieth Century"
"A Cult Matriarchate and Patriarchal Society"

---------

Reuben Thwaites, "The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents"
"Travels and Explorations of the Jesuit Missionaries in New France, Lower Canada, Illinois, and Ottowa";

-----------
Edward Denig, "Of the Crow Nation"
"Five Indian Tribes of the Upper Missouri"
------------
U.S. Bureau of American Ehtnology, Bulletin 151.

Greenberg, David F. "The Construction of HOmosexuality"

Now that I've done my part, will you do yours, and show my where my history is wrong?

Eddie, Too
"This is probably because neither facts, faith or reason support equating sodomy and other deviant sexual behaviors with traditional marriage. "

Gee, Eddie, I didn't see one poster who equated sodomy and marriage. But now that you've brought it up, are you really that convinced that sodomy is never practiced in heterosxual marriages?

disaster
very nice...and pretty quick on the sources...my compliments.

Let me check them out.

p.i.
"A vague first phrase makes your point more compelling in the end...to say the least. What you left out was the reality that the structure of the church pre-dates the "fathers" you mention"

There was no sructure to the church that pre-dates the first Church fathers. I don't care what you choose to believe, I'm not taking any more time to teach you the history you should already know.

Look it up yourself.

disaster
uhh-uhhhm...so let me understand you correctly...the first church in Jerusalem had no structure??? The church at Antioch had no structure??? The church in Rome had no structure??? The church in Ephesus, Philippi, Lystra, Derbe??? The communication between all of these in the 1st Century implies...no it couldn't imply structure...I must be totally mistaken again...sorry, I'll shut up now.

Just hoping you'd offer more context to your overarching deterministic arguments...and a little humility that might suggest you don't think you know more than everyone else on the subject...I don't mean to offend the obvious PHD in Theology you carry.

OK, Here's a start
The Christian church was not centrally administered and no central doctrine until Constantine's conversion in 313 A.D. - before that, local Bishops and church leaders pretty much interpreted scripture as they saw fit, with wide variations. Each Bishop had authority in his own diocese, and was only influenced by the persuasiveness of his fellow Bishops.

Read Robert M Grant, "Augustine to Constantine, the Thurst of the Christian Movement into the Roman World". (New YOrk, Harper & Row).

p.i.
I"ve got to go - I didn't really think your attack on my history meant that you were going to counter my facts with yours.

I don't really care, actually.

here we go again
The term marriage is not in the purview of the Federal government. The gays who want more than just legal rights(which I am not opposed to) are simply trying to salve their thin egos by changing a term which has existed for thousands of years.

Those of you who tout 'equal rights' have no idea what the term means. Gays can marry people of the opposite sex the same as heterosexuals can. Marrying someone of the same sex *is something else*.

Calling it marriage won't make it marriage any more than calling yourself Rover will make you grow a tail.

disaster babe,nycscooter and all
Should heterosexual deviants be able to marry, have and adopt children? How will you be able to stop homosexual deviants from marrying and adopting children? In your minds is there such thing as a homosexual deviant. I've seen quite a bit that I would call deviant.

Historical Homos
Homosexuality was accepted by our classical Greek and Roman ancestors. There is also a strong evidence that Israel's neighbors in Mesopotamia accepted homosexuality as well. As for them being relegated to sissy, domestic tasks, they we actively involved in philosophy, the merchant class and warfare.
Also, let us not forget the men and women who are currently fighting the war in Iraq. A number of them have "come out" after being discharged from military service and and a few have been revealed after dying in combat.
Personally, I do not care if they wear pink helmets and tutus. Peaking into the bedrooms of consenting adults and passing judgment upon what the do is much more perverse than an individual's sexual preferences.
For those of you who fear that homosexuality will lead to polygamy, I suggest you re-read your bible. Polygamy was, and still is a part of middle-east culture. It is possible that there have always been an inordinate number of homosexuals in that region with polygamy being the result. However, I wouldn't waste research dollars finding out.

Further, Disasterbabe
where do you get off saying I'm prejudiced? I've always been pretty much a live and let live type; I just don't believe that any same sex couple can legitimately be seen or described as being married. "One flesh" is just that and is impossible apart from the male/female relationship. And "Fried Green Tomatoes" is a favorite movie of mine. Think ye I'm unaware of the relationship between Idgie and Ruth?

Further, though many tribes may have accepted the homosexuality of some of its members, many does not mean "all" or even "most". The term is not universal in its meaning, ever. Some tribes indeed treated the effeminate as women, and did not consider them to be equal in any way to the warriors-and all before Big Bad Christianity came along. Sheesh.

Mr. Medved
On the subject of "lifestyle choice" the apostle Paul would disagree with you. In his letter to the Romans 1:25-27 he says,"For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exhanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and recieving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

I'm back again - Joycey
This passage, or outburst, depicts the depravity of the gentile world, which turned to idolotry. There are volumes of material that have been written about this passage, don't take it at face value.

pm
I came back because something was nagging at me. You accused me of not being humble enough - an attack I frequently receive on TH.

But I have to say my reaction was to your out of hand, off-the-cuff, insult of my history with expressing any reasons or counter facts.

I thought that was totally lacking in humility, and full of arrogance.

medved
just get on board the gay rights train.

You will need to save your strength for when they pick up the pedophiles, incests, polygamists, bestials, necros etc...

sheesh,,, medved save your strength for them.... your going to need it.

Alivein Him
Did I actually say you were prejudiced? If I did, I apologize, but I think in this respect you are.

You are trying to reduce my point about the acceptance of homosexuality and gender-switching being acceptable in many cultures to a few isolated instances where it wasn't accepted at all.

You're just wrong - I think I made a proper case for that fact with appropriate documentation. North American Indians were not the exception to these practices by any means, and I think your insistence that men who assumed the roles of women were denigrated reveals your - may I say it - personal prejudices towards both gays and women.

I did like your remark about people eating their children, though -- it made me laugh out loud.

halt,,,,
don't anybody say i'm comparing gays to,,,, pedo's, incests, polygs, bestials etc....

I'm not,,, they all have different attractions...

I am on the other hand showing how all the others (pedo's, bestials, polygs etc) will follow gay rights precedence for gaining rights and get thiers as well.

The same process (judicial decree) that gives gay rights will also give the others thiers,,,,, thank you

Disasterbabe
You suggest, "The conservative-liberal polarization is essentially a class war. "

I would suggest it is an ideological battle, not class warfare. Wedge issues (gay marriage, abortion, 2nd amendment, etc) divide the electorate by ideology but like-minded views are shared by folks in all classes.

Typical "Class war" is the attempt by John Edwards, Hillary, Obama - when they bark about the Two Americas... attempting to garner votes from folks who feel it's the GOVERNMENT'S responsibility to provide for their every need as opposed to conservatives view of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY (and/or Charitable institutions helping those above poverty).


scooter to Medved
"You will need to save your strength for when they pick up the pedophiles, incests, polygamists, bestials, necros etc..."

Yeah, Medved, because all the cons know that the entire population of "pedophiles, incests, polygamists, bestials, necros etc..."
are all gay.

You tell'em, Mike.

JOhn in CA
"Typical "Class war" is the attempt by John Edwards, Hillary, Obama - when they bark about the Two Americas"

Please. That comment, and the rest of your post, doesn't even beg for an interesting debate, it's so silly.

It's like those ubiquitous references to "elitist" liberals that pop out like bunnies on TH threads.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to get beyond the slogans and talk about real ideas?

To Continue Joycey's Observation
The next chapter in Romans begins -

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.


PLUSES
the pluses to gays rights becoming accepted and pedophiles, bestials, incests, polygamists etc.. also getting rights,,,

1. Think of the gay rights parade. Now think of that parade with all of these other groups i mention above,,
This parade will make just the gay parade look lame.

2. When molly at school says her daddy is a DOG. The teacher can now take her comment literally.

3. Polygamost clothing attire will become CHIC.

4. The 12 year old in the 6th grade really will have a good excuse to leave school early,,, her husband the JUDGE. Or HER PARTNER the judge if you prefer.

5. Morticians won't have to keep an eye on a dead corpse around NECRO's as it will no longer be illegal. (assuming the dead individual ok'd it before they died)

6. Brothers and sisters in HOPE ARKANSAS will finally be able to share thier TRUTH with the world. (incest) Does CHELSEA have a brother, or uncle?


As everyone can see there are many pluses to come about from GAY MARRIAGE.

disasterbabe,,,
don't you fret about the pedophiles, bestials, incests, polygamists etc.. in JAIL,,,

by the time the left and the media get done reshaping thier image (like gays) even the CONS will consider them worthy of respect.

Just another lifestyle choice,,, you know

negatives
these are the bad things that will occur due to gay marriage.

1. The process of judges determining what is a right and what groups deserve them will be extended to other groups in the future (unintended to you today).
pedophiles, bestials, incests, polygamists, necro's etc...

However,,, if you agree with any of these groups or gays then this is not a negative.

Baffled
I'm reading the posts for this article and the posts for the other anti-gay marriage articles and I don't understand why religion keeps coming up. What does marriage, hetero or homo, have to do with Christianity? And where are the wild-eyed Jews and Muslims, for that matter?

disasterbabe,,,
don't get the groups mixed up please,,, all the following groups have different sexual attractions and are not the same.

gays, pedophiles, bestials, polygamists, necro's, incest etc,,,

The similarities will be the process they all get rights.

Live and let live you go girl

Disasterbabe
Suggests, "Please. That comment, and the rest of your post, doesn't even beg for an interesting debate, it's so silly."


Sure - let's *pretend* to define class warfare but turn a blind eye to the pratical application of politicians drumming poor voters telling them the rich aren't paying their fair share or that Bush's tax cuts ONLY help the rich.

I can see how a person holding your views would quickly run from such a discussion.

John - Issues and No Answers
For the last few election cycles issues do not take precedence in our political debate. Instead we have been inundated by sound bites and pundits who interpret them for us. Additionally, the philosophical underpinnings of the conservative movement have eroded to a point where both parties look the same. Consequently, for me anyway, it appears that we are drafting candidates from a single, Beltway ruling class.
Both parties are struggling to distinguish themselves but when it comes to actual governing their methods are generally the same. They agree upon the preemptive use of American force, a complex tax code, nurturing special interests, an expansive federal government, increased spending (through taxes or deficits) and most of all getting and maintaining political power. Both parties would like us to believe that they represent working-class, average Americans.
In reality, the vast majority of those holding office and the people who advise them come from the "privileged class" and have spent the majority of their lives in academics, politics or busniess fueled by family money. With the exception of parroting a few sound bites, I doubt that most Americans could identify any significant differences between the two parties; because there aren't any.

Jon in CA
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound condescending, but the old saw about liberals and class warfare seems to me to be a string of cliches that have become tired and thin.

The point is, do you personally think that there are no divisions in America between the very poor and the very rich?

Do you personally believe that anybody in American can become anything they want, as rich as they want, etc.?

Do you personally believe everybody in America is dealt the same hand of cards?

Do you personally believe that one's convictions - about race, gender, education, religion, etc., are never influenced by one's socio-economic status?

Do you personally believe that it's equally easy for any American to "rise to the top?"

Putting bees in the wrong bonnets
As usual, the Leftie Losers have it WRONG WRONG WRONG on this issue.

In their usual backwards Bizarro-World logic, the Lefties are encouraging gay men to long for marriage, and teaching young women to distain marriage.

Of course their heads are full of mush, since young women have a REAL reason to desire marriage: protection for themselves and their babies.

After spending decades brainwashing girls into thinking that they should not reproduce, and that marriage and family are bad for them, the Left has then turned around and brainwashed gay men into believing that they desperately need to be married.

To the outside viewer, this hypocritical policy looks stupid and foolish... until you look beyond the surface.

The activist Left HATE HATE HATE traditional western culture with an obsession that makes Bush Derangement Syndrome look benign (in fact, it is at the heart of Bush hatred). They don't want white people reproducing themselves, filling the world and modernizing it.

By convincing young women to live lonely, mateless, childless existances, they have succeeded in (1) saving the environment and (2) weaken the United States so the Marxists can take over.

The gay thing? That propaganda victory ensures that marriage and family will lose its power to keep America strong and will provided the needed extra cultural chaos that will allow them to slip in and take power.

Joycey
"Should heterosexual deviants be able to marry, have and adopt children? "

They already are able to marry, have, and adopt children. Why should they have rights others do not?

Lightening_fast_draw
Re: Subject: To Continue Joycey's Observation

Cool.

Re: John - issues and no answers

Your post is a parallel position to what I was trying to say. Also, class systems are not obvious in every way - in government, they are clear - in the realm of job opportunities, social opportunities, mobility, education, and health care they definitely are not.

Mountain Rose!!
The Queen of liberal-bashing generalizations
and cheesy slogans!

Another reason that this benefits
the activist Left.

They are once again teaching the passive American sheep to lie down and let a minority steamroll over them.

If I recall, when a minority ruled over the majority in South Africa, this was called "apartheid" and trashed by the Lefties.

But when it is their despots that are lording it over the majority, it is praised by these hypocrites.

disaster boobe
Aptly named.

Hi Mountain Rose
I can tell you have a lot of anger and I don't really want to provoke you but please keep in mind that the CA supreme court judges who made this decision were appointed by Republican governors, except for one. If it's "bizarro world" you see, it was facilitated by conservatives. And I only wish we liberals had the power to brainwash! It would make the march of progress so much easier. But it's an astonishing claim to suggest that liberal progressives have any desire to limit anyone's reproductive choices. We're the ones who want people to have reproductive choices, remember? And finally, I remember firmly and proudly in the grip of BDS!

Jon in CA,, Alivein Him, Lightening_Fast
I'm getting off. I don't want to get into a food fight with Mountain Rose, she's got other issues and loves to break up any discussions that are occurring between people of differing views.

It's been fun debating with you all - I hope we can meet up again soon.

disaster boobe
You Lefties are welcome to live your lives any way you want, but it is disgusting the way you all brainwash other people's children.

Gays never thought about getting married, until the activist Left started making a big deal about it, convincing the useful idiots that they were missing out on something.

Just another chink in the wall that the Lefties hope to pull down, so that they leave America defenseless.

The more they devalue traditional marriage, the more that children are deprived of the kind of upbringing that made America great.

We will be left with fewer and fewer patriots to defend us from our enemies, both foreign and domestic... unless the good people wake up and take their children out of public education, and homeschool them.

Of course, this would require that women reject the narcissism that the Lefties have been promoting for decades, and return to childrearing, which is the most important job in the world.

Jeffrey- Huh?
Nope

Didn't feel a bit angry when I wrote that.

It feels really good to tell the truth.

Could it be that YOU are the one who is angry at what I said?

This is called "PROJECTION."

Can you say "Projection?"

I knew you could!

disaster boobe getting off
Too much information!

We are sad to see you go, and we feel for you that you are able to dish out the insults, but can't take them.

I apologize for having a superior intellect to you. Next time I will tie half my brain behind my back to make it more even.

Worse Than Prager's Column (1)

Prager had arguments to make, flaky though they might be. But all Medved is doing is trying to put over the slimiest kind of guilt-by-association to smear the idea of Same-Sex marriage by frantically trying to link it to other ideas, or Michael's bastardization's of other ideas, that he happened to encounter at similiar times in his own life.

"Gay marriage won’t add to the out-of-wedlock birth rate (at least not directly) but it continues and advances the devastating disconnect of sex, marriage and babies."

Lie (1): Homosexuality == Promiscuity

Surely we can all see plenty of people of each of each persuasion (gay & straight) have trouble keeping their pants on.


Forget your meds?
Mountain Woes, don't be so fearful. The conservatives always predict dire consequences for things they don't approve of that never come true. I'm not angry, I'm watching conservative judges respect the constitution, helping civil liberties advance! I'm in great spirits actually. You're the one ranting and raving and sputtering nonsensical gibberish.

Worse Than Prager's Column (2)
"By supplanting the old imperative to “do your duty” with the new commandment “follow your heart,” the Love Generation embraced emotion as the standard for judging all intimate arrangements and explorations."

The above is Michael's bastardization of the truth that we should acknowledge and understand that we have urges and feelings, rather than pretending that they don't exist.

lie (2): Homosexuality is a (selfish, perverted) 'lifestyle choice'.

I would hope that by now people realize that gayness is something one discoverers about oneself, as opposed to choosing. Most reasonable people acknowledged this even before the neurological and neurochemical evidence came to light.

"....the “Equity Feminists” of the ‘60’s and ‘70’s preached the interchangeable/indistinguishable nature of males and females. "

Again, only the most lunatic fringes of feminism preached the above, the main thrust of feminism is and always was for equality of opportunity is the many, many, areas in which men & women were (and sometimes still are) treated unequally without any compelling physical/biological basis.

And even at this extreme, I can't for the life of me fathom Michael's attempt to somehow link this excess of feminism to Gay Marriage. Gays can distinguish between Male & female just as well as straight people, they are just aroused by the opposite of the pair from straights.

Let me repeat
what I said in other posts: gay marriage can't come close to harming the institution of marriage the way heterosexual pre-marital sex, extra-marital affairs, and DIVORCE have. What kids have gone through in this country because heterosexuals have so little respect for marriage, and jump at the chance to divorce for any reason. It's a national disgrace.

Regarding the acceptance of homo-
-sexuality

One of the problems with the current despotic insistance that we accept homosexuality as normal, is that they don't get the psychological help that they need.

There was a time when homosexuality was known to be an emotional developmental disorder.

But since the power grab by the Left, and their desire to turn American culture on its head, the extreme activists have been shovelling dubious "facts" down our gullets.

Fortunately I still have a gag reflex, and I ain't swallowing any of it.

For example, it is a LIE that there is "gay gene." The Human Genome Project has cateloged the entire human genetic code, and has still failed to find a "gay gene." There are certain genetic similarities among a percentage of gay men, but it does not apply to most.

Whenever you hear gay men discuss when they first realized that they were gay, it is usually at an extremely young age. Just this week, I again heard a gay man telling a talk show host that he KNEW he was gay at the age of 5!

Five is during the era of Latency, when children are differentiating in regards to gender, and reject the company of the opposite sex. Boys usually realize that they like girls around the time they sprout pimples on their faces and little hairs on their chests.

This is a developmental issue, and can't be addressed if the truth is suppressed by the tyrannical Left.

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
Part of the Leftie disinformation machine is to divide and conquer.

They pretend that these issues are not related, when they actually ARE, and it is the Left that has made it so.

We are not buying the steaming pile that you are shovelling.