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Saturday, August 23, 2008
Doug Giles :: Townhall.com Columnist
Jesus, Beer and Your College Kids
by Doug Giles
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to prosper.”

—Benjamin Franklin

As some of you know by now, I’m a Christian. As a believer I have no problem whatsoever with either you or me having a mug of beer, a glass of wine, or a snifter of brandy, enjoying in moderation what the good Lord has blessed us with. No, Spanky, I’m not a teetotaler. Having said that, I’d never encourage nor drink around someone who, for whatever reason, has no self control. It ain’t worth it. That would be an abuse of my liberty.

In addition, I’m in favor of the legal drinking age being dropped from 21 to 18. I say if our young men and women can go off to war and face a real bullet they should be able to at least kick back a couple of Silver Bullets.

No doubt some of you legalistic 21st century killjoy Pharisees have problems with a Christian drinking alcohol. How do I know? Well, it is because Christianity as of late has been chopped down by the likes of you to these six things, namely:

1. Not watching or reading anything with the name Harry Potter on it

2. Not going to R-rated movies

3. Not smoking cigarettes, a cigar, or a pipe (there goes C. S. Lewis and Charles Spurgeon)

4. Not listening to rock music

5. Not watching CNN or MSNBC (this doesn’t send you to hell, just makes you dumb as hell)

6. Not drinking alcohol

Yep, somehow the greatest story ever told has been reduced to some goofy self-righteous denomination’s list of do’s and don’ts. The funny thing is that the majority of Christian ministers who are fierce about not drinking are not so vociferous about the tons of food they eat, or the gossip they spread, or the unforgiveness they harbor, or the many hours they spend online viewing porn.

I was watching Christian TV the other day as this chunky, sweaty minister who was at least 150lbs overweight (at least!) lectured his flock/the nation on the “demonic evils” of enjoying a Bud Light. I’m sitting back thinking, “let me get this right, Jabba . . . Jesus gets perturbed when I have a 12oz bottle of beer, and he’s completely cool with you eating chicken by the bucket, hamburger by the pound and pizza by the foot?” How convenient, Pastor Man Breasts. And correct me if I’m wrong, Reverend Cletus Klump, but I believe the glutton and the drunkard are both condemned in Scripture. Google it and get back to me.

Both the Old and the New Testament are rife with celebration (feasts) in which alcohol was involved. Alcohol was a part of the God-ordained festivities. And it wasn’t for medicinal purposes, or because the water was rancid and they didn’t have any Evian, and it wasn’t a non-alcoholic grape drink like Welch’s or Juicy Juice; it was a buzz-generating knock back just like the stuff we drink today. Period. End of discussion. Deal with it.

Y’know, I hate to bring the Bible into this, but one of the first snapshots we have of Christ in John’s gospel is Jesus at the wedding feast of Cana turning water into wine. Now, you do know that he could have turned water into anything he wanted to, right? Why? Well, he’s God, for God’s sake. He could have turned water into soy milk, orange juice, a banana smoothie, a wheat grass shake, Yoo-Hoo, Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, Mountain Dew, a No-Foam-Half-Decaf Skinny Latte, or a Red Bull—but he didn’t. He chose wine—alcoholic wine. And that would be 12 vats of the fruit of the vine. And . . . and . . . that was after all the people had already swilled down the initial 12 mondo jugs of the stuff.

Yes, Jesus filled the wine vats back up, but this time with better vino. This really screws with some Christians’ minds because: A.) Jesus is actually enjoying himself at a party with alcohol and not fasting, weeping, or holding a rabbit like all the paintings depict poor Jesus doing, and B.) when there is a lull in the soirée because the partiers have floated their keg, Christ works a miracle (obviously completely cool with the Father and the Holy Spirit) and keeps the party hopping with fresh and better brew. At that moment he demonstrated his deity not by healing a cripple, not by turning a napkin into a dove, not by making Oprah skinny once and for all, but by turning water into wine.

So, what’s my point? My point is this: If the Son of God drank wine and God “gave wine to make the heart merry,” and if your kids are going to be offered it sooner or later, then you’d better get busy teaching them how to get pleasure from it without going Lindsay, if and when they decide to drink.

I’ve seen too many families forbid their kids to drink only to have them go ape crazy once they got out from under their parents’ watchful eye (i.e. in college!). Yes, it’s usually the party-repressed church kid who gets the most hammered during spring break because booze has been the forbidden apple all their life.

I believe that if drinking is done properly in front of our kids (in moderation), they won’t be the stooge doing 20 shots of tequila down in Cabo on top of the bar at Hagar’s place for a Joe Francis T-shirt, nor will they be at end of 25” hose sucking down Schlitz from a massive funnel.

At our house we have wine or beer served at nearly every meal (especially breakfast!) and at every party. Nobody gets hammered. Nobody strips naked and starts screaming off my balcony and throwing stuff at my Russian neighbors. Nobody drives home blitzed out of their skull. Nobody starts trying to stab anyone in the eye socket with a pool cue after they lose a game of 8 ball. Everybody relaxes, chills and has a good time. No wild crap whatsoever.

My daughters have seen this from birth, and ladies and gents, I’m glad they have because they’ve had modeled before them moderation versus madness, and I believe they’ve carried a mature view of enjoying the fruit of the vine from an early age.

Cheers!

* (If you’d like a couple of great books which cover the topic of Scripture and spirits, get: Drinking with Calvin and Luther: A History of Alcohol in the Church, by Jim West, and God Gave Wine: What the Bible Says About Alcohol, by Kenneth Gentry).

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About The Author
Doug Giles’ new book “If You're Going Through Hell, Keep Going!" is now available. Ann Coulter says "Doug Giles is a substantive and funny tour de force for traditional values.” Doug’s talk show and video blog can be seen and heard at www.ClashRadio.com.
 
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I agree but maybe tone it down a bit...
The Ben Franklin quote is a fake... He actually wrote something similar about wine...

That being said, I agree with most of what you wrote here, although I think you'd attract my flies with honey as the saying goes...

I wrote a similar blog series here... Take a look and provide feedback if you get the time...

http://blog.homebrewbeer.net/2008/04/home-brewing-beer-chri stianity-part-1.html

I'll drink to that!.... in moderation.
I agree that we need to teach our children how to drink alcoholic beverages in moderation, rather than in excess. Both abstinence and abuse are extremes. If we don't disciple our children, our culture will --and I don't want my kids living for Miller moments.

I like ben franklin ;-)
I read the autobiography of Ben Franklin. He sounded like someone Doug or I would love to have living next door. It has been about 10 years, so the ending is a little blurry. It was something like, "I'm still alive, sooo..."

He was a funny guy too, but serious about serious things, and living in a serious time. He was a believer in God, but not a zellious follower of religion. Probably because of the religious fads that prevailed then as now.

The law of God, like every law on earth (created for the benefit of the citizenry), is intended to curb the extreme and caution the moderate, and condem the evil.

Ask anyone who has spent their life studying the word, and they will tell you that selfishness is the core of every sin. Avoid that and you will not only be well on your way to wherever it is that wonderful people go, you will also be a favorite neighbor to any thinking people.

As Benjamin Franklin said:
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

Let them drink
the day they become subject to criminal prosecution as adults. And put a paragraph in the law that says that when they are on trial for driving Daddy's BMW 200 kph down the 401, losing control of it, jumping into the Southbound lanes and causing a multi-car pile-up that kills seventeen people, their attorneys cannot refer to them as "This Child".

And also put the same paragraph into their insurance policies: that the insurance defence their policy requires is not allowed to characterize the boozed up brat who dived off the hotel balcony into a two foot deep fountain and caused himself irreparable brain damage as "this helpless Child" and insist that everyone from the hotel to the sand pit where the sand that was turned into the beer bottles is to blame for "the harm done this innocent Child" -- but the brat who chugged the liquor down is pure as the driven snow.

In simple terms: Don't Do The Crime If You Can't Do The Time. A liquored up 18 year old who kills 17 people in a multi-car highway crash is a mass murderer and should be punished accordingly. He is not a poor little tot that was too young to know the consequences or be punished for them.

Allen
Just which verse was out of context and what is the correct context for said verse?

cave
Do we just live in a cave wearing sack cloth and only listen to Southern Gospel? Support your claims bud. You need more than one out of context verse.

Allen
Maybe you just didn't read the post. It's #88, and there is plenty of scripture cited. What does it mean to you?

same song again
Chiefest, your Scriptural Rhetoric is the same BS that Doug is referring to. You have the same indefensible Phariseeism that has no defense in Scripture. Tell us what you mean by "catering to the flesh." That idea is only in your head not the Word.

Prescription wine
I almost forgot the other time I was prescribed wine by a licensed medical professional.

12 years ago when I had been in early labor with my oldest child for about 40 hours and had only 3cm dialation and contractions were never closer than 7 or 8 mintutes apart, my CNM told me I needed to sleep or have a baby. So, she said to drink a glass of wine or a wine cooler, get in the birthing tub and get as relaxed as possible.(It was a homebirth.)

My husband was betting on sleep. My mom was betting on baby. Mom was right. After a couple of hours things got rolling really well and I was FINALLY in active labor. My daughter was born about four hours later.

It's not really a homebirth thing. Women birthing in hospitals were sometimes given alcohol drips in the 70s and 80s to stall preterm labor.

SAME OLD SONG-please don't be decieved
"Do whatever you want and be a Christian".

Catering to the flesh will send you to HELL. I don't care what scriptures YOU THINK you can find to explain or condone your behavior. "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh: but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." ROMANS 8:5. "...Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye CANNOT DO THE THINGS THAT YE WOULD." GAL 5:16,17.

DONT UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS I WRITE? Consider this: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." I COR 2:14.
What is the fate of the natural man concerned with carnal things? "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." ROMANS 8:8. If you're not pleasing to God, where do you think you'll spend eternity? "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye throught the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye SHALL LIVE."ROMANS 8:13.

Oh, and the fat TV preacher you're concerned about? He'll answer for his actions just as you will before the Great White Throne.

Greg
"Greg Location: KY
Reply # 2
Date: Aug 23, 2008 - 6:29 PM EST
A little rough but right on
True points. No need to insult Cledus the gluttonous pastor. But yeah, bottom line is you are correct."

Why not? He's just pointing out Cletus' sinning with similar terms these guys use to condemn sins (Biblical as well as extra-Biblical) they observe in others. Let he who is without sin throw the first stone, right?

Is it light or Lite
1.My New American Standard Version says
"Be the light of the world." At least it does before breakfast. I suppose being a believer, you ask the blessing before you eat. Wow! you have it all, receiving the light and drinking the LITE.

2.How many mugs of beer did Ben Frank have when he made that statement?

3.Yeah Buddy, the prisons are full of people who beat their wives, abused their children, ran over their neighbors on the road, because they had to much chocolate cake.

4.If you have been to boot camp, trained hours on end using sophisticated weapons systems, and are member of our armed forces in good standing
and you are 18 or 19, lets have a military exemption. Or else let's have all 18 & 19 year olds pass boot camp before they can buy drink.

5.R-rated movies argument? Bogus.
Some christians look at porn? Bogus.
Look when I met Jesus, I was completely reborn.I had to go to friends and family and tell them there are words, places and things I can't be a part of. My christianity didn't come from church membership, family tradition, or a Sunday school certificate. I became a new creature in Christ. Mr. Giles our society is crumbling. Whatever our activities may be, we need to ask ourselves, as the Apostle Paul put it. Are we doing the deeds that match our repentance?

Reply to Sword of Light
With all due respect, I got the point. The thesis is that we should amend public policy (federally, I guess)to reduce the drinking age to 18 or 19. The rest of the article is about the perceived persecution of his belief in Christian liberty. My humble point is that this is a serious topic that may contain more than 2 viewpoints. I believe alcohol-phobia has already been successfully marginalized, even among conservative evangelicals. I have chosen not to teach my 21 year old to drink alcohol. I can't teach what I don't know. It is saddening if the article was motivated by pain caused by the personal hypocrisy of someone close to Doug. Sadly, I've lived enough to be hurt by the hypocrisy of both libertine and legalist. I will be moved in my opinion by voices of responsibility that demonstrate love for the fallen from each end of the spectrum.

Vic
His music is darn good road music, though, especially when he's joined with the other Highwaymen!

God rest his soul. That man had a hard life until he met June and God.

Bozo
You're right.

I should have made it clear that I meant "whatever adult beverage floats your boat!"

My apologies.

Beer and Breakfast
Well, I woke up Sunday morning
With no way to hold my head that didn't hurt.
And the beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad,
So I had one more for dessert

Johnny Cash

Jesus, Beer and Your College Kids
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was raised a Southern Baptist, with pipe smoking minister grandfather. My parents, on the other hand were teetotalers, and yes, I went bananas when I left home. Eventually found a middle ground and stayed there. But,gosh....breakfast?????

Animal & Homeschool MomAZ
Our family doctor once told Mom to give me teaspoonfuls of honey and whiskey for a cough. It worked very well.

Animal says
"It has only been since the first of the 20th century that christians have shyed away from drinking." No, Christians in the nineteenth century were speaking against alcohol, also. My maternal grandmother (born in 1864) had no use for alcoholic beverages (or playing cards).

What is the point?
So is Giles saying that because drinking alcohol per se is not condemned by the Bible (though drunkenness most definitely is), there should be no minimum drinking age? Comparing other age minimums is irrelevant. That's like saying if you can drive at 16 you should be able to enlist in the military at 16. Apples and oranges.

Jesus' wine
It is interesting that after the wine Jesus made from water was served, the master of ceremonies was surprised that it was better than the wine that had been served, since the custom was to serve the best wine first and, after everyone had drunk too much, serve the cheaper wine. Does this not indicate that the wine served was from fermented grapes, and not non-alcoholic?

Homeschool MomAZ
I am glad to hear that you have gained some weight.

FeargalX - to say that people who "preach against achohol are by definition non-Christians" is ludicrus to say the least.
Preachers teach what they have been taught by those who have been taught, etc.

It has only been since the first of the 20th century that christians have shyed away from drinking.

The Bible does not condemn drinking in moderation. It is man who decided that 'Thou shalt not drink.' If you look at those men of God in the Old Testament, you will see that they drank fermented wine.

Mark 14: 25: "Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of thr fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

Anyone can put into this verse anything they want it to say, but it is clear that Jesus is drinking 'new' wine in the Kingdom.

Some will say that this verse is teaching about His bllod, but I ask those who believe this, Is Jesus talking about drinking blood, when in the Law, God said not to drink blood?

by definition a non-Christian
Those people who preach against driking achohol are by definition non-Christians. The bible says what it says. There are many good arguments against using achohol -- people can get violent and make poor choices. Claiming somehow that Jesus does not like it is crazy.

Animal-prescribed underage drinking
Animal,

When I was a teenager I was very thin. At 5'2" I weighed only 90lbs and was a size 0. I was otherwise healthy, but needed to put on some weight.

My doctor told my mother, "Well, IF she were of drinking age I would recommend she drink a glass of wine and eat a piece of dark chocolate before a meal to stimulate her appetite and improve a possible digestive problem, but, um, that would ,um , only be IF she were of age." (Wink. Wink.)

I have met several people who were given the same advice by their doctors.

Unfortunately I couldn't stand the smell or taste of wine then and I still have the pallet of a 12 year old. I only have alcohol mixed with other sweet drinks.

Then I was put on the dream diet: extra fatty foods, minimal physical activities, and eating between meals for about 6 months. I never made it over 96 lbs.

Pregnancy fixed the problem and I've been a steady 110 size 4 ever since.

This farm kid would add
Where I come from the job of little sisters (that would be me) was to burn the trash. I got in trouble when I DIDN'T set things on fire. I was about 6 when I was assigned that job. There was no trash pick up in rural AZ at the time. We had a burn barrel and a box of matches to handle all our household trash everyday.

We also lit the pilot light on the old fashioned gas stove and used a match to light the burners while the gas was running when we were elementary aged kids.

Other jobs we had as we got older: trimming trees with a chainsaw and burning weeds with the flame thrower. The only person ever injured was my step-dad. He once dropped a running chainsaw on this chest at the top of a tree, but it hit him hard enough to bounce which was probably the reason why he did not need medical intervention. It's just a flesh wound.

We were around livestock and on horses without helmets, protective armor or bubble wrap from a young age.

We could all use a firearm. Country women tend to prefer double barrel shot guns for personal protection because they require less time in target practice. We had no 911.

Pregnant women on the farm do all the chores they did before they were pregnant. They move hay bails and 30-50lb. bags of feed.

Every teenage boy had a rifle and a shot gun and they went hunting together without adult supervision as soon as they got their licenses. Many also had a hand gun or two. Some had hunting bows. No one even blinked at the thought and no one was ever injured.

At the homeschool convention this year I attended a workshop where the speaker asked the audience of 100-200 people, "How many of you moms felt you had been prepared to run a household full of children?" I was one of two women who raised their hands. "Did either of you grow up on a farm?" Both of us did.

Malnutrition
When I was around 5 years old, I was shipped to my dads by my mom. My dad took me to the doc because I was really skinny (kinda like the vegetarians and vegan that try to tell us how to eat). Anyway, getting back to what I was saying, the doc was from Germany. Guess whsat she told my dad to give me. That's right BEER and peanutbutter, as much as I could eat of both. These two items worked and my health returned to what it should be.

Pro and Con
Christians who claim we can't drink can never tell me why Jesus created the "good" wine for his first miracle at the wedding. They also can't tell me why Jesus commanded us to drink wine in rememberance of him as one of the most important sacraments, communion.
I think Jesus was making a statement that it is OK to imbibe considering these actions.
That being said, however, I went to college when the drinking age was 21 and I think it should stay 21.
College presidents need to stop being moral imbeciles and promoting the lowest common denominator behavior to the future leaders of this country. 21 was plenty early to legally drink when I was a coed at Purdue.
College is hard enough without college Presidents encouraging kids to drink instead of study.
Also, recent brain research claims our brains aren't even fully developed until after the age of 21 so why encourage kids to kill off more developing brain cells they will need the rest of their lives!

Extrabiblical beliefs
Great points about the church inventing sins. It reminds me of the ongoing issues with online poker. Big government nanny-staters decided that this must be a sin, just because they think is, so they have actually fought to strip Americans of this liberty. Now, as a result, many poker players won't vote GOP this year. I know many of you think that's no big loss, but consider that the Poker Players Alliance has over one million members.

http://theengineer.pokerplayersalliance.org
http://www.pokerplayersalliance.org

Excellent article
First of all, why no complaints from posters here about the unconstitutional power grab from the federal government in the first place? Surely we can all agree at the drinking age should reside at the state level, can't we? Next, should we all now look to the federal government to solve our problems? LOL at how fast many here are willing to cede liberty to the government.

The Worst Thing...
Prohibition in the US was one of the worst mistakes this country ever made.

I'm a lifelong Christian who grew up in church being taught that drinking alcohol of any kind was a sin. When I got older, and started reading the scriptures for myself, I discovered that a lot of what I was taught in Sunday School was contradicted by the Bible.

Read Deuteronomy 14:26, for example. Read it with an open mind, remmbering that it is Scripture, not our opinion, that is right.

In fact, read the entire paragraph, going back to verse 22, and realize that a lot of what we've been taught about the TITHE is contradicted by this scripture.

I'm a lot less concerned about what the "church" teaches, and more concerend with what Scripture says. The biggest problem we have is that most Chistians don't know what the Scripture says...

saltydog - Prohibition doesn't work
--
The perpetual argument is that if the consumption of alcohol - a sedative and disinhibitive substance - can be forbidden to people of *ANY* age, the consequences associated with alcohol abuse (from motor vehicle accidents to habitual intoxication to Korsakoff's syndrome) will be prevented.

Good notion, I guess.

The problem is that it was tried - whole hog - back during prohibition, and it just plain DIDN'T WORK.

In large or in fine (whether you pass some massive idiocy like the 18th Amendment and the Volstead Act or you just arbitrarily jack up the drinking age from 18 to 21 - which is what the FedGov did in 1984), statutory efforts to suppress alcohol consumption can only criminalize an activity that the overwhelming majority of sane, rational Americans consider not only harmlessly pleasurable but the exercise of a right no government in this nation is lawfully empowered to infringe.

At the very least, it gives inoffensive, honest young men and women to consider themselves criminal enemies of the state for doing something that they know full well will *NOT* be criminal in ten months' or ten days' or even ten minutes' time.

An entirely arbitrary minimum drinking age makes a mockery of the concepts of law and government, and brings both institutions - quite justifiably - into public contempt.

Religious admonitions against the consumption of alcohol (and other psychoactive substances) are a matter of conscience, and I would not disparage such *CONSENSUAL* and *VOLUNTARY* restrictions.

Turning an exercise of personal conscience into a matter of compulsion, however, destroys whatever virtue might putatively be found in such abstention, and brings religiously motivated campaigners for such political measures into a state of war (and yeah, I mean *WAR*) against their peacefully coexisting neighbors.

Temperance is a good thing. So is sex.

Temperance at gunpoint - like sex at gunpoint - is not.

--

Why play with fire?
Christians are called to go against the grain, not go with the flow. Parents are to be examples and in my experience it's the ones who drink, but forbid their kids to drink that have the problems. "Be a witness for Christ, if necessary use words." Wise words from Chuck Colson.

Bridge 2 far
You post very reasonably: "...I feel that Christian leaders such as you and I should set an example of how one can live a happy and enjoyable life without alcohol for the benefit of those whose lives and families have been destroyed by alcohol. I've seen too much of what pain and destruction can be wrought by drink to even be able to enjoy or recommend it myself."

I'm not Mr. Giles, but if I may I'd like respectfully to post a response.

I believe that I am not causing a brother to stumble if I drink in the proper context, as long as that brother is not present when I do it. It is also up to me to confront a brother who refuses to acknowledge the sin of alcohol abuse in his life, and pray for and with him to help him through it. It is not up to me to completely eliminate drinking from my life in order to remove any excuses that my brother may have for abusing alcohol, for one simple reason: alcohol abuse is not the only sin. If I were to apply this principle to every conceivable potential sin, I could not possibly be both a preacher and a human being at the same time. Do I eliminate dancing from my life? Movies? Cards? TV? Boardgames? Reading? Anything to which anyone can possibly be addicted?

As the writer of Ecclesiastes wrote, there is a time for everything under the sun. Nothing is to be done to excess. Live life to its fullest, as God meant it to be lived, in a balanced way. If I strive for this under God's guidance, I will be the best possible leader.

SJ Doc
My mom sat in my grampa's lap as he drove the truck on the farm. She started driving the truck as soon as her legs were long enough. She could also whip the neighborhood boys at Indian wrestling. (My apologies to those who are hyper-sensitive to racial references. 'Tis what 'tis.)

Randy & spiritof76
You missed Mr. Giles's point. He is obviously angry about some judgmental things that some "legalistic 21st century killjoy Pharisees" have said to him in the name of Christianity about his thoughts on drinking. I think that he overreacted. However, his main point (with which I agree) is that those who criticize him for his stance about drinking should take the log out of their eyes before trying to take the mote out of his. This is thoroughly Biblical.

Randy: His statement about pornography was part of this larger point. I'm sure that you have personally experienced or observed the effects of the behavior of Christians who spend hours pontificating about the evils of specific sins only to discover that they had sins of equal or greater significance in their own lives. Swaggart and Bakker are prime examples. Mr. Giles was not saying that all of those who call drinking sin also have porn fetishes.

spiritof76: The Nazerite vow was optional to make, and temporary once you made it. It should be construed neither to effect every Christian, nor to be permanent.

AliveInHim
"Cheers to all and to all a good whatever floats yer boat! "

I'm certain, based on other comments you have made in these forums, that you don't really mean what that statement implies.

Even in this particular context.

Some poeple can handle it and some can't
I have seen alcoholics come from both drinking and non-drinking backgrounds. As far as deadly binge drinking goes, it has definitely increased since the drug warriors and the madd mothers took charge in the '80's. I remember kids going to rock concerts tossing frisbees in the parking lot after rolling a couple of joints in them and maybe knocking back a beer or two before the show. The couple of idiots that got hammered didn't have any fun. My group preferred the Mary Jane because at It's strongest,it was milder than being drunk and more fun being in control of yourself. My old friends and I have all done well, although we had to quit the weed after "reefer madness" fully took hold. If Conservatives don't get off of being the prohibition party, things will get worse.

why the age 21

The high death rate among teens in drinking and driving accidents caused an uproar from grieved parents. I don't know if this death rate improves with the higher age limit, but it is easy to understand the reasoning behind raising it. Its an attempt to save the lives of teens.

I personally believe if 18 year olds can fight our countries battles, they should be treated as adults all around. But my heart goes out to the parents who loose a teen over a party.

I also believe Christians who demand total abstinence from alcohol do not do so from a strictly Biblical perspective. Alcohol abuse causes a lot of heartache and we must combat it out of concern for the safety of us all.

LOVE this article!
And let's not forget Paul telling his young disciple Timothy that a bit of red wine would be good for his digestion. Who'da thunk that 2000 years ago this would be borne out by modern science? Those ancients knew far more abaout health than we'll give them credit for!

I'm positive that there was no official drinking age back then, there being few if any alternatives to goat's or cow's milk, wine or beer. Jesus likely had wine as part of His daily bread even growing up, after all!

Cheers to all and to all a good whatever floats yer boat!

What a Liberal
Christian this politically conservative Giles is.
Mr. Giles and his Clash church are in the front lines condemning other Christians for not being as cool as they are. What was it that God said about being in the world but not of the world? Whether or not he drinks does not bother me so much as his attitude. God never said a Christian would be popular. On the contrary, non-Christians would persecute you. I don't believe Mr. Giles has that problem. A popular Christian needs to think about that. Google his Clash Church and see which way the evangelical church is headed. Its like a rock concert -- anything goes and all beliefs are fine.

Stevel
There is also no Jesus in Islam

Islam is superior
There is no alcohol in Islam.
There is no tobacco in Islam.
There is no premarital sex in Islam.
There is no prostitution in Islam.
There is no pornography in Islam.
There is no rock music in Islam.
There are no pet dogs in Islam.
There are no jokes in Islam.
There is no humor in Islam.

Resistance is futile....


Beautiful
Funny! Very Funny! I am a college student and I can definitely appreciate this article. I have always believed that moderation is the key to enjoying many things in life. I mean, scientists have discovered that if you drink wine in moderation, you actually live longer! Imagine that!

Keep on writing, Giles! Let common sense reign!

Giles
What an inane piece! If Giles hadn't proven what a juvenile loser he is in previous works, he did in this one. The publishers of Townhall must think they have pre-adolescents among their readers.

Get off the stage, Giles! Try to find the good sense that John Hagee somehow came up. He faded into the political woodwork after Americans beyond his San Antonio flock were exposed to his big jowls and small mind.

Hob
If I sent you a picture you would see a sixty year old man who by the gov. standards is overweight, but lifts weights and is pretty buff for my age.

Everyone
The Apostle Paul told the people in Corinth that they should drink at home and not when they are at church. Timothy was told to drink "a little wine for his stomach sake."

American church leaders are just about the only ones who condemn drinking. Go to Germany or any other country and you will see Christians drinking with their meals.

It is drunkenness that is a sin, not drinking.

There is a book I read years ago. It is about the history, as told by their diarys, of the first christian settlers in America. They made rum and then gathered together to drink in a barn. (What I thought was funny, was that the men did the drinking while the women were in the loft throwing apples at the men if they got carried away).

Do i drink, maybe once a year I will have a beer and that is only when something special comes my way. We also have our little tradition here of wine at Christmas. No one gets drunk and the left over wine usually gets tossed after sitting in the frig for several months.


Hob
6'0", 185 lbs.

Had a small glass of Chardonnay with my meal last night.

pistol
also, in the liquer store, Baptists don't recognize other Baptists.

Reading the responses...
I bet that if you had everyone require a picture to be sent to you, you would probably see that most of your critics are overweight. You are being criticized because you have stepped on toes here.

Kudos!
Especially on Rev. Jabba. Anything in excess is wrong including food.

Jesus, Beer, etc.
I was wondering what part of the Bible you read endorses name calling? Just curious. By the way, if you'll take a very serious look at the real research on brain development and dysfunction after alcohol, state by state accident statistics, and the real starting age for binge drinking which is now around 13, you'll see that the idea of the 18 legal drinking is a terrible public health idea. I guess you were to busy working on names to call preachers to really research your article. Maybe next time, huh?

He who is noble devises noble things
I keep wondering when Doug is going to drop his attempt to appear hip to the young and learn that what they really need are examples of mature sound judgement and wisdom in their elders.

Maybe by the time he is 50 he will learn that trying to appear hip is a snare that will trap him in its limitations and instead of encouraging them to not be "legalistic", can begin, with sound reasoning and by example, require them to "devise noble things" (Is. 32:8)

There is a larger issue here than the mere toleration of alcoholic consumption, and I am saddened that a pastor misses his opportunity to address it, but I think that may be, in part, an example of the downside of making "hipness" one's modus operandi in ministry.

At a time when the young, Christian or otherwise, need no encouragement or instruction in the art of loosening restraints, and we see all around us the effects of doing so, when are we going to begin once again, to hear from the pulpits, aa appeal and a call for the attractiveness of moral refinement in the Christian?

Yes, the Israelites were not enjoined to refrain from the enjoyment of wine, but the Rechabites and the Nazarites who did so voluntarily, were singled out as being exemplary.

Where are those who would call us, by their words and by their examples, to such lofty goals once again?


For all of you people who maintain
that biblical wine was not alcoholic I have one question. Where were all the refrigerators that stored this grape juice for months after harvest?

Of course it was alcoholic and for good reason. Number one people liked it that way and number two; it was safer to drink wine and beer in those days than water since they had no water purification methods.

there's still a problem, here
Doug, I can understand your point about legalistic Christian leaders forbidding alcohol. But I think there's another aspect to this whole thing that you overlooked. You came close to it in your first paragraph:

"No, Spanky, I’m not a teetotaler. Having said that, I’d never encourage nor drink around someone who, for whatever reason, has no self control. It ain’t worth it. That would be an abuse of my liberty."

The problem, Doug, is that people with alcohol problems don't have to actually see you in your home washing back a Bud to take your example to heart. All they have to do is read this column. You as a Christian leader are an example. For a brother who's struggling to kick a vicious alcohol addiction, it's counter-productive in my opinion to say "you know, man, it's ok in moderation." They can't define moderation, otherwise they wouldn't have a problem. Their lives are simply better off without the drink, and they should have Christian leaders supporting that example. Yes, Jesus turned water into wine, but the partygoers were also not attendees at a pastor's conference. Where scripture is concerned, is the example set by Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 8 any less relevant to the discussion? Or Proverbs 31:4 ("It is not for kings or princes to drink intoxcating drink."?) I'm not trying to be a pharisee, here, I just think these must also be weighed in the balance when we're consulting the bible for a right standard of behavior, here.

Doug, I agree with you that alcohol is not inherently evil, and it is not a sin to consume responsibly, but I feel that Christian leaders such as you and I should set an example of how one can live a happy and enjoyable life without alcohol for the benefit of those whose lives and families have been destroyed by alcohol. I've seen too much of what pain and destruction can be wrought by drink to even be able to enjoy or recommend it myself. That's just my two cents on the matter.

What did Jesus drink?
Do we know that Jesus partook of the wine? Or are we to infer this? I don't see it in the Scripture passage.

What did Jesus drink?
Do we know that Jesus partook of the wine? Or are we to infer this? I don't see it in the Scripture passage.

what about mary jane an other rec drugs?
Can we apply Doug's thoughts to marijuana and other recreational, so-called, drugs. Toke responsibly, kids? Just take enough cocaine/crack/crystal meth/ecstasy/whatever/to get a little happy while remaining socially responsible?

Wine in the Bible - Alcholic or Not
I do not fully agree with Mr. Giles. It is my understanding that you really need to go back to the old Greek in the Bible to understand which type of wine was being spoken of. I believe there were 2 types of mentioned in the Bible, one, of course, was fermented and the other was a sweet drink. I do, however, agree there is no prohibition in the Bible to drinking alcohol, BUT there is a prohibition to being a drunkard! Also the only other issue is IF you drink alcohol and it affects the belief of a weaker brother, then you should not drink (or eat).

Pistol: Naughty Corner for you! LOL :-)
.

Pistol
Good one

Apollos
Do you know why Baptists won't have sex standing up? They are afraid if they get caught, people will think they were dancing.

Doug
Hit the nail again.

Farm Kids...

Hey, can you parallel park a tractor?



O. K. You got your driver's licence


The Rural Rat...

FARMERS...

SJ Doc
Location: NJ
Oh, really? Didn't grow up in farm country, either, didja?

In "flyover country," kids handle flatbeds, four-wheelers, tractors, pickups, even combines on private property owned by their parents and neighbors. In some rural communities, kids of 12 or 13 will spend September through June every year getting behind the wheel of the farm's third-best truck, drive from one home to another (entirely on contiguous private tracks), pick up three or four other families' worth of children, and tool into the back lot of the local school without ever once even crossing a county road.

Self-reliance borne out of simple necessity, facilitated by practiced expertise.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for discussing civilization before the 19th Century (remember I mentioned Pasteur and Lister, dummy?), the point you miss is that giving kids alcoholic beverages as a safer alternative to disease-carrying *NON*-alcoholic liquids was a commonplace for literally thousands of years, and imposed no intrinsically adverse consequences.

Responsibility is learned - like bouncing a rubber ball - only thru practice.

Denying the opportunity for that practice is insane.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SJ Doc
Location: NJ...

Yeah. Me too. And my wife.

Driving at age 10!

Oh Gee. We both feel really disadvantaged.

Farm Kids, both.

~~~

I started sipping beer very early. Mom and Dad, and Aunt and Uncle played Euchre, two or three times a month. Dad and Uncle drank beer.

'Us Kids' would come by and 'sneak' a sip of beer. It tasted great! Dad would, after awhile, say, "You have had enough."

I never got drunk in my life, until I had been in the Navy for over two years.
Five beers. Yes. That's all it took.

I still drink, but I limit the amount. Why? I do not like feeling like a leftist.



Ben Franklin Rat

Ratas y Ratones


Fishing
Don't take a baptist fishing, he'll drink all your beer; take two of them -- they won't drink any.

"Word!"
1. I LOVE the Harry Potter books!

2. R-rated movies: Does it have a plot??

3. Non smoker who loves C. S. Lewis.

4. Listening to rock music

5. Hates TV news

6. Wine mostly, but not opposed to the occasional margarita!

7. Saved by grace. Hallelujah!

WASP - Ever bounce a rubber ball?
--
Proving that WASP really *IS* historically illiterate, and couldn't get a point if it were pounded squarely through his skull with a hammer, he says nothing worth quoting in his final paragraphs.

But in his address of "Mother of 4," he says:

"We don't let 14 year olds drive because they don't have the judgment necessary."


Oh, really? Didn't grow up in farm country, either, didja?

In "flyover country," kids handle flatbeds, four-wheelers, tractors, pickups, even combines on private property owned by their parents and neighbors. In some rural communities, kids of 12 or 13 will spend September through June every year getting behind the wheel of the farm's third-best truck, drive from one home to another (entirely on contiguous private tracks), pick up three or four other families' worth of children, and tool into the back lot of the local school without ever once even crossing a county road.

Self-reliance borne out of simple necessity, facilitated by practiced expertise.

My own experience came of hauling a trailer loaded with harvested grapes and other produce, using my grandfather's tractor. I was maybe 9 or 10 years old. My wife grew up doing pretty much the same thing on another farm.

No big damned deal. We just did what we were taught to do.

Just how the hell much "judgment" d'you really think it takes to drive a motor vehicle, WASP?

Do you *EVER* think, sonny? Can you?

As for discussing civilization before the 19th Century (remember I mentioned Pasteur and Lister, dummy?), the point you miss is that giving kids alcoholic beverages as a safer alternative to disease-carrying *NON*-alcoholic liquids was a commonplace for literally thousands of years, and imposed no intrinsically adverse consequences.

Responsibility is learned - like bouncing a rubber ball - only thru practice.

Denying the opportunity for that practice is insane.

--

Age of adulthood.
I agree that there should be an age of adulthood that allows all of the following:

military service
buying/consuming alcohol
consenting to medical treatments
signing legal documents
being held 100% legally responsible for your own actions
etc.

Cheers, Doug!
I grew up in Southern Baptist churches and I now attend an Independent Baptist church. I know EXACTLY what he's talking about.

The Bible doesn't forbid drinking, it forbids drunkenness. There's a world of difference between the two. My father, who my mother threw out of the house when I was 7 days old because of one of his drunken rages, is a recovering alcoholic. His alcoholism devastated our family. I have no patience for drunkenness.

I also have no patience for people arguing the Bible says or means anything other than what it says. Alcohol is not forbidden. It is used responsibly in front of our children in our home and in public.

Mother of 4 and SJ Doc
Mother of 4,
I never implied any responsible parent would want to teach kids to get drunk. What I was trying to say is that the underage drinking problem is not going to be solved by teaching kids "How to drink". We don't let 14 year olds drive because they don't have the judgment necessary. Life is full of things that one must be a certain age to do. Not that some couldn't handle it, but experience has shown that maturity is needed to handle some responsibilities. I have read diaries of women in the late 1800's who were happily married at 14; I don't think that would be a good idea in this country. Also why do we need to use Alcohol to teach moderation? I for one don't have a shortage of issues to teach that virtue. Again I don't see this as a sin issue rather as a judgment issue. I hear all the arguments about other cultures that have kids drinking at a young age, but in this culture underage drinking is huge issue. If underage drinking was caused only by "pitiful Protestants" who don't drink or let their kids do, it would not be such a large issue. Yes we have all seen Christian Kids go off to college and drink to much - I was one of them - but I also got very drunk with a lot of kids who were taught to drink at early age.

SJ Doc
If you want to use mid-evil society as your point of reference thats great, but I have clean water, that even comes from indoor pluming - sounds like you don't. You should check it out, it's very cool.
As for keeping things forbidden from kids in this country - we should never tell our kids that they should have to wait. Everything, all the time.


Labor Day With Family & Friends
This Labor Day would be a great time to talk to family and friends about socialism and the detriment to our standard of living. Talk about Obama's unmerciful position on children who survive abortions. Tell them about Obama's plans of taxing everyone into an equality of misery out of "fairness." Seek out the young adults in your families; find out if they are Obamabots and need to be rescued from the cult. Obama's campaign is preying on the young and uninformed; we need to get the word out so that everyone knows the truth by November. Labor Day Weekend would be well-spent laboring for our continued freedom.

Pastor Giles
How do I put this?

How about...the obverse of a sermon against drinking would be a sermon on "It's ok to drink."

Both miss the point entirely and I would have quietly walked out of either service.

Doug, I'm saddened by your lack of depth.

WASP - Ever ride a bicycle?
--
Asks WASP (yet another "pitiful Protestant," eh?):

"So should we start our kids drinking at 15, 14 years old?"


Oh, hell, no. *MUCH* earlier than that.

Are you as thoroughly historically illiterate as are most "social" pseudoconservatives?

Let's take that as a given.

Know anything about the water supply in most areas of the world from which the modern West has descended? Ancient Greece? Rome? Northern Europe?

Study up on the subject and you'll learn that apart from places where aqueducts brought potable water from remote mountain streams and rivers, drinking from open sources near any urban area was a recipe for "the flux" (meaning dysentery, up to and including death by cholera). Also hepatitis, amebiasis and a bunch of other waterborne infectious diseases.

On the other hand, by using even some of the nastiest muddy river water to brew beer, you could pretty effectively clear it of microbiological pathogens.

If you were a medieval Englishman, and you loved your children, you'd rather pour them a cup full of small beer than an equal amount of milk.

Tuberculosis, y'see.

And wine - usually watered, even among the roistering Greeks - was a perfect way to make for a safely potable beverage in the days before Pasteur and Lister.

The reason why we should get our kids used to encountering alcoholic beverages in their first decade of life (a helluva lot younger than 14 or 15) is that they need to learn about the sedative and disinhibitive effects of these substances in safe, parentally supervised circumstances.

As for the putative "value" of keeping it forbidden....

Hm. And the Islamic world is just *SO* peaceful and unaggressive and utterly, completely non-violent, isn't it?

--

Drinking is not a sin!
I, too, am a Christian, specifically I am a Roman Catholic. Too many times in my life I have heard evangelical Protestants state that drinking alcohol is a sin (as is dancing, but that is another debate). I defy anyone to tell me exactly how drinking, as opposed to getting drunk, is a sin. Doug is right on target in pointing out that Jesus, who was/is without sin, drank alcholic beverages. If drinking alcohol itself were a sin, the Jesus would have sinned, which is impossible for Him to have done. On the other hand, intentionally getting drunk IS a sin. The main reason that it is a sin is because it deprives a person of his/her reason. It can also lead to other sins such as fornication/adultery. That being said, I would like to add another book to the list that Doug mentions at the end of his article. It is:

The Bad Catholic's Guide To Wine, Whisky & Song: A Spirited Look at Catholic Life & Lore From Apocalypse to Zinfandel

From the back cover:
This book views Catholic life from a unique perspective: through a shot glass darkly. Ask anyone the question — “What is the difference between “whisky” and “whiskey’” And you will learn more about them than if you ask them about their favorite politician. Starting with the wines, beers, liquors and liqueurs made around the world by monks, the authors serve up a lot of facts, then add chasers of drinking games, food, and drinking songs, and cocktail recipes from past and present. This A-Z dictionary of alcohol serves at once as a bartender's guide, a party planner, and a screwball catechism.

THE DRINKING AGE
I imagine this whole article is tied to the recent college presidents support for lowering the drinking age. Your assumptions on some broad aversion to this by "Bible thumpers" only who oppose the evils of alcohol is ludicrous. There are plenty of less than overly religious responsible Americans with good reasons to keep the age at 21. Pointing back 200+ years for infringement on our liberties is a stretch. Ben Franklin's kids had a Mustang that might throw the rider. Our kids have a Mustang that can kill by the carload even without the introduction of alcohol. The college system is only trying to cover their own tracks in supporting the change of the drinking age. Colleges across the country have turned a blind eye to underage drinking for years, occassionally at the cost of young lives. Their only interest is in reducing the liablility of a college in those cases. I spent four years on a prominent Christian campus where alcoholism was part of daily life and the college looked the other way. Reducing the drinking age at a time when so many of our best and brightest are first going away from the home (and the people who truly have their best interests in mind)is hardly the prescription for an enviornment to learn responsible drinking habits. Just read the statistics regarding binge drinking in college already and legalization hardly adds much disincentive for the practice. Are kids going to drink... Yes. Are some 18 year-olds adult enough to handle alchol responsibly...Yes. Are you ready for the call when your kid falls from a balcony or worse innocently gets killed by another young drunk and still inexperienced driver? I'm not.

The advantage of Sicilianity
--
Having not only been raised in a small town almost entirely populated by Italian-Americans (it wasn't until I went to high school that I realized it was possible to have a last name that didn't end in a vowel) but also growing up in a family one side of which ran a vinyard and made table wine -

(( where other kids grew up mowing lawns and raking leaves, I spent my week-ends and much of the summer months tying up vines, spraying fungicides, harvesting, grinding bushel after bushel of grapes - no, you *don't* stomp them in a big tub, damnit - and doing whatever my grandfather ordered in the way of getting the product fermented and bottled ))

- I literally can't remember when I *didn't* have at least a small glass of wine at the table during Sunday dinner.

The standard family remedy for a head cold was always half-and-half orange juice and dago red. I don't recall as it made a sore throat feel any better, but it seemed pretty effective at ensuring each kid got plenty of bed rest.

As everyone knows (or should know), wine-drinking cultures tend to have pretty low levels of alcoholism relative to the more puritanically abstemious societies.

I knew pretty well what it felt like to get mildly buzzed by the time I was in 3rd grade (and you're damned right I didn't like it), so when I swilled illicit beers with my buddies in high school I knew *precisely* when I was getting impaired, and could back off with a fine degree of discretion.

But how the hell do you pitiful Protestants handle the whole notion of going from dead stop to flank speed the instant you hit some sort of mythical "age of majority," anyway?

Worse yet, in this age of idiotic "Zero Tolerance," parents aren't *ALLOWED* to permit their kids to drink even the sort of miniscule amounts that were poured for me at the Sunday supper table when I was a kid.

And God forbid a child should grow up in a household where the parents brew their own beer!

--

Repug
Shocked the heck out of me. You actually posted without a direct attack on the Republican author of the article. I know you're a troll, but maybe there is some common ground on the plane of common sense. I anticipate disappointment, but, nevertheless, I'm responding to your post.

You state that times were different in Ben Franklin's day. Perhaps, but, I have a Brita water filter on my kitchen sink faucet, in response to a laundry list of contaminants present in Philadelphia tap water.

I can honestly say that I've not sustained any crypto-sporidium infection from the Heineken I've consumed.

The whole point of the article is that the consumption of alcoholic beverages is not antithetical to the Christian faith.

“The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”
----Matthew 11:19

alcohol
During my high school years, I walked away from Christianity because a minister that I greatly respected believed as Doug Giles believes. I had experienced the destruction of my family to alcohol. Many lives and families have been ruined because of alcohol thus associating it with evil that we as believers are called upon to avoid even the appearance of. The New Testament standard is to be filled with the Spirit - the new wine: the flow of the Holy Spirit in our lives producing joy unspeakable and full of glory. Believers are called upon to walk circumspectly, redeeming the time because the days are evil. God is a holy God who calls his followers to holiness. Let's not forget the Nazerite vow of desiring to avoid the fruit of the vine in dedicating oneself to God. I just don't see Paul, Silas, Timothy and Barnabus sitting down to share a brew together.

Oh, and One other thing
OK, I get the gluttony thing. Do we give the preacher a pass on his weight, as long as he indulges in a little booze, also? But, what's up with the private porn fetish accusation? Am I to infer that a preacher must be predisposed to pornography if he believes abstinence is a superior choice for young people (a great idea in my mind)or Christian leaders (certainly debatable among men of good will) or all Christians (a rare position, not worthy of a Town Hall column)? You need more than anecdotal evidence to substantiate the claim (that preachers against booze are hooked on porn). Here's the logic as I follow it. You like to drink alcohol. You are not comfortable with reasonable discussion of the issue. There are some great arguments in favor of your position. All arguments to the contrary are stupid. And anyone that falls for them is secretly a pervert. I'm convinced. I'm certainly not a pervert.

WASP
You seem to be missing the key point. You're talking as if people are teaching kids how to get drunk.

The point is that parents need to teach teens to use alcohol responsibly and in moderation.

Teaching the moral virtue of restraint with alcohol goes right along with teaching kids other moral virtues like reserving sex for marriage, applying oneself to one's work, and otherwise remembering that their body is God's temple and that the choices they make in their lives need to be made carefully and in accordance with God's will.

In other words, its one aspect of teaching them to become ADULTS.

That's a far cry from enabling irresponsible and destructive partying.

Evangelical Protestants
My military career has forced many moves, which has allowed me to experience many different Churches throughout the country. Evangelicals do a great job of learning scripture and being faithful to the Bible. The problem arises when they try to add to scripture or ignore it. They will fight for literal meaning of Genesis yet dispute Jesus’ first miracle of changing water into wine. It is the same for the last supper and the Biblical fact that Jesus used wine to represent his blood. Hearing explanations from Pastors that is was grape juice when the scripture tells us wine is troubling.

I believe this is the point Doug makes in his reference to gluttony. The Bible does not condemn distilled spirits but is against drunkenness. Although tobacco use may not be good for you, it is not a sin. If you condemn Harry Potter, you need to condemn CS Lewis’s Narnia stories for similar magical allegorical references.

I wish it were that easy
"I’ve seen too many families forbid their kids to drink only to have them go ape crazy once they got out from under their parents’ watchful eye (i.e. in college!). Yes, it’s usually the party-repressed church kid who gets the most hammered during spring break because booze has been the forbidden apple all their life."

So should we start our kids drinking at 15, 14 years old?
What I have seen over the years is that kids who want to drink want to be free of the restraints their parents put on them. Drinking is just one aspect, sex and drugs are the other part of the equation.
I have seen kids go off to college and stay out until 4:30 in the morning; should parents not have a curfew for their teenagers so they can get used to college life.
Why 21 and not 18 - as anyone who has raised a teenager will tell you the ability to think rationally grows a lot during those years.
Is drinking sinful for adults no, I enjoy a beer with my Christian brothers often; but I am mindful that my children are not adults and that moderation is not high on most teenagers lists. I wish dealing with teen drinking could be addressed by dad "twisting off" every night after work.
One last thought, it's great that you are teaching your children to drink if that's what you feel you should do, but please don't get upset with me or condisend my teaching because I see this a a real potential issue in one of my kids and chose to to other wise.

Abstinence is ok, too
This is kind of a straw man argument. Who are you trying to convince. I'm 50 years old. I think my wife and I are the only people I know (Christian or otherwise) that don't drink. A good friend of mine pulled a fast one on another friend of mine, telling him that I used to be a raging alcoholic (explaining my abstinence). Friend b, of course, bought it, because really, why else would someone abstain? The alcohol abstinence message is quite marginalized. Alcohol abstinence is a personal decision. I am judged far more harshly by Christians for abstinence than I ever judge them for drinking in moderation. By the way, I'm right there with you on cigars (as long as they are hand made premiums).

Personally,
Personally, I can't stand beer.

It confuses people because, since I don't drink beer and I don't get drunk people think that I don't drink. Then it blows their mind when I enjoy whiskey on the rocks instead. But just one.

An advantage to teaching the kids about alcohol, both directly and by example, at younger ages is that if they know what it tastes like they're less vulnerable to people pulling stupid tricks.

A friend's kid wrecked his lovingly restored muscle car one day and it turned out that he had an illegal blood alcohol level at age 16. He said that he hadn't been drinking and, being a good kid, people were inclined to believe him.

After investigation, his "friends" were shown to have spiked his cola with vodka as a "joke". He was too polite to tell them that their off-brand soda tasted bad and, since he'd never even smelled a drop of alcohol, he didn't know what the weird taste was.

I believe that there should be one age for ALL adult privileges and responsibilities. Drinking, driving, military service, sexual consent, marriage, signing legal contracts, ... the whole shebang. Pick and age and draw a hard, bright line. Then hold people to the responsibilities as zealously as they claim the privileges.

I agree
Although I wouldn't have been quiet so hard on the tv pastor, I admit to agreeing with this article.

I was once told, by a pastor, that real Christians do NOT drink alcohol. Meaning that anyone who disagreed with him wasn't actually a Christian. What a way to stop all discussion on the issues.

There is nothing with not drinking but to imply that a person who drinks is somehow less spiritual then one who doesn't is obnoxious and wrong.

I dunno
I like Doug; consider him a brother-in-Christ and all, but, man alive,... beer drinking?

Kind of makes me think of teachers complaining today that the students are running in the halls, chewing gum, and not doing their homework.



two in a row
Giles, you are too funny to be a Xtian! And you are making way more sense every day...

...which scares the crap outta me!

Mr. Giles
We lived in Louisiana for 7 years. Even though it is in the bible belt and heavy on catholisism the parents have a much better handle on teaching their children how to drink properly. Most of the colorful stories that you here about in New Orleans involve roudy tourists, not locals. Although there is a strong criminal element in areas but this is due to liberals running the place. Anyway why would parents not want their children to learn how to drink properly when they are of age. It is much safer for them to have this information and it isn't like having sex out of marriage which is always against His rules.

Also I wish Christians would stick with teaching unbelievers the "Good News" instead of focusing on their sin, and how that sin is going to send them to hell. I may be able to convince someone to quit getting drunk but stopping your sin doesn't get you in. If we focused on the "Good News" maybe we would stop in-fighting over small issues also.

Taft
I didn't know I was watching MSNBC News the other evening on a public television. I actually thought I was watching a 1/2 hour long campaign add for Obama.
I don't watch television news. I read magazines. The news you recieve does not come in sound-bites but is instead very thorough.

And who trusts MediaMatters?
It's another spawn of the Soros empire through his various holdings and organizations?

Didn't Hillary suggest the formation of MediMatters?

Isn't MediaMatters the idiot group who stumbled over Don Imus' off-the-cuff stupid remarks about the RU girls basketball team and made a cause celebre out of it?

I would really look to them for "real" news.

Sorry, but no cigar
5. Not watching CNN or MSNBC (this doesn’t send you to hell, just makes you dumb as hell)

This is actually been proven to be the opposite. Fox News viewers hare usually more ignorant to the facts of news events than all the others.

Examples;


Dick Morris said today that the Iraq Gov. invited us in.

several days ago they lied about key facts about Obama

"Additionally, they played both ads but only deflected Obama's, leaving McCain's vague charges of corruption hanging in viewers' minds. The accusations that Obama saved $300,000 on his house courtesy of Rezko are debunked by Politifact.com**, and rumors of his doing favors for Rezko are squashed with the facts at MediaMatters.com.

The list goes on and on and on

Giles should once again consider preaching Christianity.

A little rough but right on
True points. No need to insult Cledus the gluttonous pastor. But yeah, bottom line is you are correct.

Good Points
I think this issue exemplifies the age old practice of picking and choosing certain morals over others just because their easier to enforce. Jesus himself said the most important commandments to follow for all his followers were to love god with all your heart and love thy neighbor. But you can't legislate that or rile people up with that. Alcohol, pornography, abortion, and homosexuality are all those issues that some people attack just because it's easier to get attention when they scapegoat something.

This is a free society and that includes the freedom to drink and consume whatever you want so long as it does not harm others.
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