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Monday, May 19, 2008
Dinesh D'Souza :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gay Rights vs. Democracy
by Dinesh D'Souza
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It is the essence of democracy that people should be able to decide the moral rules that govern the nature of a community. If people don't have that power, then they are living under an autocracy.

True, this majority rule is not unlimited. It is limited by what the government has the power to do. Consequently the majority cannot, in general, vote to seize the homes and accumulated savings of rich people. Leaving aside exceptional cases, government cannot mandate how parents how should raise their children. These kinds of power lie outside the scope of government in a free society.

Majority rule is also circumscribed by individual rights. But these are the rights clearly specified in the Constitution. A majority of citizens cannot prevent an individual from voting because voting is a basic right, as is the right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and so on. The state is constitutionally prohibited from undermining these enumerated rights.

Now the high court of California has made gay marriage into a right that is immune from restriction by the majority of citizens in the state. We already know what California citizens think about gay marriage: they oppose it. A referendum outlawing gay marriage was passed with the support of the state's voters. More than 60 percent of voters cast their ballots against gay marriage.

How, then, can a court invalidate the referendum and over-rule the will of the people? Basically through a kind of legal fraud. The court has to pretend that there is a right to gay marriage even though it is nowhere evident in the state constitution. Read the constitution, hold it up to the light, squeeze lemon juice on it--you won't see a right to gay marriage in there. It is simply not an enumerated right, nor is it a right that can be clearly derived from other enumerated rights.

In issuing its ruling the California court appealed to the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The basic logic is that gays have a right to be treated like everyone else. But just like everyone else, gays do have the right to marry. They have the right to marry adult members of the opposite sex! What gay activists want is something else: the right to marry members of the same sex. This is not a right currently enjoyed by anyone. What these gay activists seek is not equal treatment but rather to change the definition of marriage.

But states have a legitimate right to define marriage. State legislatures, drawing on tradition and appealing to the values of their constituents, have defined marriage in a very particular way. Marriage requires a) two people who are b) of legal age and c) not closely related to each other who are d) one male and one female. Note that this definition excludes people who want to marry children, or guys who want to marry their sisters, or Muslims who want to take four wives, or that strange guy who wants to marry his dog.

Now gay activists, with the acquiescence of the California high court, want to remove one of the criteria of marriage while keeping all the rest. Yet if it’s discriminatory to gays to require that marriage be between a man and a woman, why isn’t it discriminatory to Mormons and Muslims to require that it remain between two people? Isn’t incestuous marriage also between “consenting adults” who have a right to equal protection of the laws? And why doesn’t the Fourteenth Amendment protect the fellow who wants to walk down the aisle with his poodle on the grounds that “I love my dog and my dog loves me”?

The point is not that gay marriage is indistinguishable from child marriage or polygamy. The point is that any definition, and marriage is no exception, includes some people and excludes others. Consequently it’s unreasonable to say that gays have a constitutional right to over-ride the definition but other groups do not. The court’s real justification seems to have little to do with constitutional reasoning and everything to do with an assertion of political power.

Political power has its place, and that place is in the legislative and executive domain. So in the California high court decision, we see liberal jurisprudence subverting the legislature and the will of the people in order to achieve its ideological agenda. This is not about whether you think gays should be allowed to marry. If you think they should, go ahead and vote for candidates who support gay marriage. But you should still oppose the manufacture of bogus rights in order to reach a result that democracy would not by itself allow.

Attempting to insulate themselves from the political fallout, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama said very little about California’s legalization of gay marriage, muttering only that they have long opposed the idea. The real question, however, is what they would do to express this opposition. What would a President Obama do, for instance, to protect traditional marriage? Here the answer appears to be: nothing!

In the past Democrats have always appreciated courts doing their dirty work when it comes to issues like abortion, pornography, prostitution and gay rights. This way Democrats can advance their permissive agenda without having to take political responsibility for voting against the values of a majority of voters. It’s time to make the Democrats pay for this in the November election.

I know that there are gays who desperately want gay marriage, and in a way I'm happy for them. But at the same time I'm sad for constitutional democracy, which suffered a grievous blow at the hands of the California high court.

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About The Author
Dinesh D'Souza's new book Life After Death: The Evidence is published by Regnery.
 
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Dinesh Dinesh
Dear Dinesh

Once again conservatives are losing their way in this debate. The issue on the California decsion should NEVER be about the merits of gay marriage per se. That the Supreme Court of California decided in favor of gay marriage is not a capitulation to a flawed (according to conservatives) understanding of the value of marriage. Rather conservative (like you Dinesh) should confine your argument to the atrocity of the court's excercise of political power versus judicial review.

That the "gay agenda" seeks to redefine gay marriage is a political argument. The tragedy of the California case is that the judges entered into the politcal debate. The side they took should be immaterial to commentatotrs like Dinesh. I would submit that it would have been just as wrong for the court to have ruled differently had they done so over some "concern for the moral fabric of society" or "to preserve the institution of marriage" or any other flowery (conservative) sentiment.

The court simply should have said something on the order of "whatever our personal feelings for or against the condition and struggles of gay people, the constitution makes no provision for a category of citizen as defined by their sexuality gay or straight. Therefore, we can have no judicial opinion on this matter."

Case closed.






DARWINISM & ATHEISM: UNSCIENTIFIC & MYTH
On the Right-hand side Panel see How ATHEISTS BECAME HORRIFIED WHEN TWO DOCUMENTED ACCOUNTS OF THE DEAD BEING RAISED IN JESUS' NAME ALONG WITH MANY RECENT SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES that wither their philosophy to the core.

http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/#facts_about_evoluti on

Pray for them - Leave it on God
Pray for them - Leave it on God -

Noah ! did the same.
Sex is for one woman married to one man (1 Cor. 7:1-5). ACTIVIST JUDGES are Gods for left. We dont know how many pagans ideology are included in this untold rights.

There are other countries/societies with strange culture , which are not known for us. If introduced in America , they will fight for it.

Bills 'Dont ask Dont tell' policy is vital that he cared for power , even he might dislike it and hillary's crappy appearnace in LOGO TV with fake smile and crave for power.

remember the gay soldiers
on this MEMORIAL DAY, remember the courageous gay and lesbian soldiers serving in uniform to protect and serve YOUR freedoms and rights. As you, the opposition, feels no obligation to reciprocate here at home.
This is an especially important statement because your right to vote that these soldiers preserve, will be used against them and their fellow gay citizens to marry.
Those of you who have claimed moral high ground on the basis of simply being heterosexual, are reminded that sacrifices have been made and justice cannot wait for no man.
You are not righteous who maintains such injustice before God and man.
My appreciation for all soldiers is very deep. My father, a black man during WW2, returned to the injustice of Jim Crow for HIS service.
There is no justification to do something similarly against gay people for the freedom to marry. There is no injustice as this, that could disguise itself from the God you claim.
Memorial Day is a solemn occasion, and gay soldiers so duly earned much.
So, think of what meaning marriage, their service, your vote must mean to them, to do this for YOU.



Not really, Nobody
Judges didn't invent anything. I know that "activist judges" are the current whipping boys of the right wing but keep in mind that these were judges appointed by republican governors, except one. Presumably they used legal thinking combined with conservative ideology to reach their conclusion. They didn't invent a right. Citizens are presumed to have a right, unless the law prohibits it. Your rights are not diminished just because they are not specifically enumerated. For example, there are no laws for or against baking cakes on Saturday. You can therefore presume you can bake a cake on that day, until the state passed a law saying otherwise. Same with same sex marriage. It's a presumed right, unless the state says no. To make a law that prohibits it, the state cannot violate the constitution. In California, there are laws prohibiting gender discrimination, unequal protection, and separate but equal laws. Even laws created by referendum, supported by a majority, have to pass constitutional scrutiny. Prohibiting same-sex marriage fails on all three counts I've mentioned here. IMO.

so...all the statements
the opposition here, including D'Souza himself makes it clear why a Constitutional amendment will be the WORST mistake ever made SINCE Jim Crow. Our nation hasn't healed from THAT outrage, and expanding on or maintaining Jim Crow like laws will affect more than gay people. Although gay people ARE THE ONLY TARGETS.
The only thing you're making clear is the prejudice you're basing the amendment on.
And since most of you are STILL arguing that being gay is a choice, that is enough right there to know that a permanent amendment to support such IGNORANCE is appalling.
I think it's sad that none of you even knows any gay children or tries to talk TO and WITH gay people on their experience and who they are and their intentions.
Instead, the opposition here talks AT and DOWN to gay people with so few of them participating in this thread.
And it's THEIR lives you're making decisions on (not marriage), instead of allowing THEM to be included on such important decisions as who they marry and how their children will be supported.
The ballot booth is an easy way to anonymously be destructive to this segment of the entire human race.
Yes, the people still want to vote: but it's not the way to save marriage, separate gay folk's children from yours or know exactly what gay people really are, as opposed to what you BELIEVE they are.

D'souza himself
has benefitted from the very court decisions he now complains shouldn't exist. He has a white wife and he's forgotten for whom courts have intervened before and judges committed to at least the BASIC intents of the Constitution.

I don't know what part of COMPELLING argument that he nor the majority of you don't understand.
That gay people have sterile sex or don't procreate or can nurture children isn't compelling.
Because we voted that way, isn't either. And it's ALWAYS been that way, isn't as well.
Most obviously because NONE of those things are true. The judges decided on MANY reasons besides the aforementioned. They didn't do it to infringe on YOU or marriage, but because there IS no infringement and no compelling argument that marriage itself is in any danger from gay couples and their children.

the opening line
in D'Souza's article dismisses the status of those historically who have been outside of the benefits and conditions of the Constitution based on their status as a suspect class.
It has been immoral to ban citizens on the basis of their color, gender, and now for their ORIENTATION.
With the specificity of that, is why the laws expand to include a person being protected FROM the very tradition of injustice you want to maintain and the laws cannot.
Now that CA has put this issue up to public vote again, all of you have forgotten what cruel institutions would STILL be in place were it not for judges and courts.

This isn't about only marriage, but the infringement on a DISTINCT human minority of OTHER standards of free association, access and protection.
It's not about rights because they are gay....but about not CONTINUING injustice because they are.

con't
D'Souza is only succeeding at asserting the standard party line. It IS bigot bait, because THE only excuses here to continue the ban IS bigotry, not anything to do with preserving marriage and it's intents and purposes for ALL those who are willing to live by those standards, but sheer animus towards gay people in particular.
You have no such animus against heterosexuals who don't reproduce, and neither does the marriage law.
You have no such animus against those who cannot or do not raise children.
And there are thousands of gay couples with children. No this isn't about protecting THEIR children through the expansion of marriage for THEIR parents...but the purest and rawest form of traditional hostility that is AKIN to race hatred and misogyny.
Gay people are not exactly the same, but the overall animus has similarities.

Asserting that a majority voted against gay people marrying is no surprise, of COURSE they did. Given the traditional hostility towards gay people.
Instead of conceding this is the POINT of the Constitution, you complain that it's more YOUR right to continue the animus, than having any OTHER compelling reason that can come out no other way but in contradiction to marriage laws ALREADY written and what gay people DO agree to.

ignorance of homosexuality
I have to repeat it here and I shouldn't have to. But the primitiveness in how people respond to human behavioral facts is astonishing. Truly.
Heterosexuality (is the most COMMON orientation), homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality. These are orientations and NOT indicative of virtues or character.
Asexuality is an orientation that has NO interest in sex, nor the invasive intimacy we associate with sex and the instinctive quality to have it.
And to suggest that they be raped or turned into heterosexuals who want sex, would be an absurd and cruel idea.
Even moreso that they are ineligible to marry because they don't want sex.
Or deserve to be banned from serving the public because of that factor?
The operative word here is ORIENTATION, not 'preference'.

incredible
With few exceptions, Desousa and the majority here are ignorant and impossibly contradictory. Which is precisely the reason why Prop.22 could not stand.

The sophistry in this article is still asserting exactly why the Constitution and it's intents and purposes shouldn't be used as a discriminatory tool.
In most of the words here the animus against gay people is plain. And it's a tradition to hold such animus.
The judges in this matter, from the 9th to 11th circuits were elected, and conservatively appointed. The legislature, representing the electorate ALSO voted to expand marriage to homosexuals.
The operative words here are EXPANDED TO INCLUDE gay people. The basic definition of marriage is not changed at all. The couple who can participate changes.
But that's all.

And in the manner of expanding this option for it's intents and purposes doesn't either.
And NONE of the opposition here has said why.
Any other bans such as against plural spouses or incest, are based on STATUS and in the case of marriage would be REDUNDANT. Since marriage is also for the purpose of making two non related, non married people PRIMARY NEXT OF KIN. If you're already married or already next of kin....there is NO COMPELLING reason TO marry, as their is for gay people in particular.

Reply to Lestat Reply #2
I've been debating on another thread before I read this one. Lestat is absolutely correct in his/her? analysis. Dinesh correcly argues that the California court's decision is bad law and shows why.

Most posts have taken a religious or a civil rights tack while I have stressed the harmful longterm demographical consequences of gay behavior.

Polygamy is next to be approved if this bad law stands. After that, who knows as Dinesh points out.

This law is a major step in the unstated agenda to desroy American families and, consequently, America itself. That agenda is already well on its way. Somewhat surprisingly, the proponents of the agenda don't seem to understand that. They think that it all about equal rights but totally disregard the longterm consequences of their choices.

A Pro-Gay marriage Atheist weighs in.
I have read a few of Mr. D'Souza's columns before, and without fail I have disagreed with every single one of them. In addition, I have read several columns this week which predict with unbelievable certitude that giving an incredibly small portion of the population the right to marry will "ruin society," and I find their logic and reasoning deeply wanting.

In this case (somewhat surprisingly to me), I find Mr. D'Souza's logic to be flawless, and his comments reasonable. If the question is about moral and social meaning, I firmly believe that gay people should be allowed to marry and create families in whatever legal means are available to them. If the question is about judges inventing things to fit a political agenda, then I must (to my great shock) side with Mr. D'Souza: We can't allow judges to just make the law up as they go along. Which is terrible, in this case, since I am quite certain that over turning the decision of these judge for legal reason will upset and hurt many gays, including two close friends of mine.

James
Life is cruel and hard, and anyone who says differently is selling something.

Idea!
All the gay men in the country should find daughters of conservatives and marry them. Once people see how cruel it is to suggest that people be in false, empty, loveless marriages, this dumb argument that gay people can marry people of the opposite sex will stop. In fact, that is more anti-marriage than anything.

One of the worst things I ever did was get engaged to a woman from my church when I was younger. I knew I was gay (I have known since I was very young), but I still acted as if I loved her and was attracted to her. It was horrible and mean on my part. When I told her the truth, it hurt. Luckily I did not marry for my own selfish reasons. I did have a church friend who was married for 13 years even though he knew he was gay. He went to exgay therapy for over a decade, had two daughters, and said he was straight. When he realized that his life and marriage was a sham, he killed himself leaving behind two beautiful daughters and a widow. To suggest that gay men should marry women is disgusting, cruel, and an affront to marriage.

The purpose of marriage
Marriage does not exist so that government can sanction and validate romantic relationships; civil marriage exists because society needs children and it needs them raised in the most optimal environment possible. Tax breaks, subsidies and other benefits are conferred because society receives something in return. A stable marriage between a man and a woman is the only relationship that has the biological potential to produce children and then provide the optimal environment in which to rear the next generation. This is a societal and governmental imperative. Marriage is not an issue of love, rights or sexual preference. All loving relationships are not equal, nor have they ever been so. United Families International respects the rights of people to freely associate as they wish, while also recognizing that marriage is not about adult rights and adult benefits. Marriage is principally about the bearing, nurturing and development of children. There is no mandate to ratify a “right” for some individuals that stands in direct conflict with the equal right of children to have both a mother and a father. The same arguments that require legal recognition of same-sex “marriage” also require legal acknowledgement and protection
for any consensual sexual practice or form of marriage. Once the significance of a union between one man and one woman is abandoned, there will be little -- if any -- principled ground upon which to deny marital status to group marriage, incestuous coupling or any type of loving relationship. Same-sex unions are not a minor change to marriage, but represent a radical redefinition of the one institution we know to be best for children.

StandHisGround

Thanks for the advice. I live in town near family and my business. So it would pain me in another way to move.

However, I'd make a move beyond the beltway if I had the preverbal bird in hand.

camanintx

Wow, that was early on - it must have been caused by some act by someone in the colonies which is an intrigue thought.

I bet there is quite a story behind both those laws being inacted.

Sad that it took so long to overturn.

Jeffrey

I am sorry to be the bearer of reality but honosexuals can't produce children.

All I see are single parents who allow another person of the same sex to adopt their child.

What I also see is the discriminatory practice of excluding one of the child's biological parents in the raising of that child. So to have a child on purpose with the intent on not allowing that child to know his/her father or mother is DISCRIMINATION and is NOT in the best interest of the child.

it is very simple
it is really very simple, and EVERYONE KNOWS THIS:

homosexuals are sterile

homosexuality is sterile

that says all that has to be said about what homosexuals and homosexuality are worth

homosexuals are very frustrated because their anal 'sex' does not produce babies nine months after the 'sexual' act

homosexuals, with their suicidal inclination to anal 'sex' and cucumbers, have shortened their life expectancy by 2/3

homosexuals with their anal 'sex' produce and spread disease, with a consequent social cost

nothing favors homosexuals

nothing favors homosexuality

nothing recommends homosexuals

nothing recommends homosexuality

will/Will: homosexual 'sex' is not sex
will/Will writes: "Subject: AJB
Regarding gay sex as the "worst sin".

Leviticus tells us that gay sex, mixing fabrics and eating shellfish in the Jerusalem area are all equally abhorrent in the eyes of that great dictator in the sky.

Stop being a drama queen. It's just sex. No cosmic significance. Let it go."
__________________________________

Homosexual 'sex' is not sex, but rather a perversion of sex. It is an activity that the suicidal homosexuals engage in to shorten the homosexual life expectancy. It has social costs.

Before you quote the Bible, learn something about the significance of the parts of the Bible--you are making a fool of yourself to compare the proscription of homosexual anal 'sex' with eating shellfish.

Hello again Standing
That was quite a post, that last one. I'm using the same logic as the right wing about the importance of families. The state has some interest in seeing strong families formed, and gay people pair off, have kids, pay mortgages, send their kids to school etc. No one's forcing gay marriage on anyone: no one wants to make you marry a man if that's not your preference. Marriage of any kind is not forced on anyone. I assume the shotgun marriage concept no longer is practiced. As far as the bizarre recruitment argument, as long as heterosexuals keep having kids, some of them are gonna be gay. My very heterosexual parents had two gay kids. But actually, gay people have kids of their own, who, ironically, are usually straight. As fas as recruiting, one would think gay parents would do whatever they could to make their kids gay, too. So far, they haven't succeeded very well. I'm not really sure what statistics to use to gauge Europe's long-term health but I'm sure there's more to it than just birth and death statistics.

Lisa
The first US laws banning interracial marriage were introduced in the late seventeenth century in the slave-holding colonies of Virginia (1691) and Maryland (1692), so they were more than just bad law passed after the Civil War.

Camanintx

There was bad law passed after the civil war. What is sad about Loving vs Virginia is it took that long to get judges to acknowledge the unconstitutional aspects of the laws enacted and enforced DESPITE what the US constituion said.

We need to find people with the courage and humility to follow the Constitution.

Unenumerated Rights
Dinesh should keep in mind that the US Supreme Court used those same "unenumerated rights" in Loving v. Virginia to strike down miscegenation laws in 1967, without which he wouldn't be able to share his nice Southern California house with his Caucasian wife Dixie.

Lisa
If you're looking for the elusive conservative man in the town you live in, and that town is overwhelmingly liberal and Democratic, has it occurred to you to move? If the fish aren't biting in a certain part of the lake, maybe that's because there just AREN'T any fish in that part of the lake - and to catch them, you need to place yourselves where the fish ARE.

JMO51 (# 150)
"What would you want for one of your children if her or she happened to be..."

My children ARE gay, but not homosexual. I do not yield to your perversion of language.

If they were, I would want them to remember that their afterlife is the most important thing and to eschew all behavior proscribed by God. That's the same that I want for you - it's toleration, but not approval.

DA
Where it says you can baptize your children and give them communion in the Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Baptism and Communion have been an integral part of the exercise of the Christian faith since Christ still walked the earth. (By the way, the marriage of one man and one woman has been around even longer.) Are you really that ignorant of Christianity?

My question about where is gay "marriage" in the Constitution is not irrelevant. And my point about marriage should be between two consenting adults, one of each sex, is not opinion. It's the natural order of things. The way you wrote it "[quoting me]---Under any circumstance two consenting adults of the opposite sex who are unrelated should be allowed to marry---[your response] That is your opinion, but it is not shared by everybody," you seem to be indicating that there is a circumstance where two consenting adults who are of the opposite sex should NOT be allowed to marry. Is that really your position?

Sorry, but I have yet to see an argument that convinces me that gay "marriage" merits recognition by the state.

Swampfox

You'll please note that I would consider marriage to the ever elusive conservative man in my own town.

As my town is rabidly liberal, vicious, and Democrat, marriage is a remote possibility.

Bottom line, I wasn't refering to you.

Don't Get it - Do You?
People, people, people... This is not about gay marriage or any of the other 10 million off topic subjects being discussed. This is about judicial activism and the usurpation of the right of the people of California (and indeed the nation) to the referendum process. It's about judges who don't understand their proper function and the people of the state who don't take action against them. (I suggest drawing and quartering with their heads on pikes outside various courtrooms across the state.) Anyone remember how the courts declared that Prop 187 was unconstitutional? That was the Federal court inserting itself in California's 11th amendment powers. (Or is that 10th amendment?) At any rate, we have another issue on the ballot here in California that the courts are salivating over - Eminent domain. The courts have already decided that you don't really own your "privately owned property" and any local government body can take your property and dispose of it as they will without you having a say in the matter. We are losing our rights with ever increasing speed to activist judges who do not actually have the power to make the decisions that they make. They not only twist the language of various constitutions, they viciously torture it to obtain the wording they desire for the "decisions" they foist off as legal. Judges are not supposed to make law. Legislators do that.

Dinesh has nailed it.
The equal protection clause exists to grant citizens equal protection under the law. The law is decided by the people through their elected representatives. The people have very clearly defined marriage as ...well, marriage. That 'husband and wife' thing.

In this instance, the Court ruled against the people. That, by extension, is an affront to the Constitution they so blithely swore an oath to uphold. But, as they say, it's California.

activated

The "definition" of marriage has been changed constantly for millennium. Marrying for love is a very recent redefinition of marriage. Allowing people of difference races to get marriaged is a very recent redefinition of marriage. If history is any guide tomorrow there will be another definition. Let us not forget until very recently marriage was more about property rights than anything.

The state has a compelling interesting in marriage to promote stability. To allow two people of any sex to get married is a conservative idea. To promote stability. To have a legal structure for kids in case of one spouses death. To deny a family proper legal protections is to put in danger their spouse and their children.

JeffreyRO5
If it's so much in the public interest to allow gay couples the right to marry, as you claim, then why are you on the left so determined to force that practice on the public through unelected judges rather than let the public echo your sentiment at the ballot box? When or if enough of the public agrees with you that gay marriage is in the public interest, it WILL become the law of the land - but that day is not yet, and never will be as long as MY vote has anything to say about it. And gay couples do NOT bring families into the world in and of themselves: the gay lifestyle is perpetuated by RECRUITMENT, not REPRODUCTION. Perhaps you haven't figured it out yet, but God (or nature, if that's the highest thing you choose to believe in) did NOT make the human male able to bring children into the world without the assistance of the human female. Shouldn't that tell you something? A few species ARE hermaphroditic - but not ours. Maybe, just maybe, there's a reason for that.

And just what makes you think Europe is going to pull out of the death spiral it's now in? The birth- and death-rate statistics (compiled by the Supreme Being itself of the liberal universe, the United Nations) don't lie. This is the REAL reason America is so despised in Europe: as former Boston Globe columnist Don Feder wrote years ago, those who still have a survival instinct are always despised by those who have acquiesced to their fate.

hombre - Yep. Aren't you glad they do?
--
Bloats hombre:

"So judges' should ignore the explicit language (or silence) of the laws and the constitutions and cite 'English common law tradition,' or 'John Locke's premises' in order to impose their political/social preferences on us."



The whole idea behind the division of government power into the three rival branches (see "checks and balances") is that each of these branches has demonstrated propensities for failure.

The founders had much experience of various kinds of "branch-dominant" periods in English history - in one era too much of unchecked executive power in the form of royalty; in another, a permanently incumbent Parliament proving that a legislature could (indeed, almost inescapably *would*) become corrupt, tyrannous, and ineffective as a governing body; a judiciary that became the rubber stamp of royal tyranny (until escape-valved by what we call "jury nullification" today).

While no system of checks and balances could be made utterly perfect, the founders' purpose was to build in a degree of institutional redundancy to reduce the chance that our governments would repeat the mistakes of their English predecessors.

For one thing, they intended that the judiciary should function as an error-checking mechanism upon both the executive and the even more powerful legislative branches of civil government, particularly in matters where popular panics (like your own personal brand of blind idiocy) gave rise to emotional breaches of the public peace and good civil order the maintenance of which is the only real reason for having a government in the first place.

"Social" pseudoconservatives notwithstanding, the nature of government is not to serve your bigotries but to preserve the rights of the individual to life, liberty, and property.

-- Want more? --

That's easy, Activated
Marriage is a legal contract, like a mortgage or a car loan. Like any contract, it cannot be entered into without mutual informed consent. Animals, for example, cannot consent, so the fears about man marrying a dog is unfounded. Children under a certain age cannot, because of their lack of maturity, give informed consent. The age of consent varies by state, since marriage laws are the province of the state, not the federal government (making a federal marriage amendment a tricky undertaking). Clearer?

Hold on a minute Standing
Gay people haven't committed any crimes that would cause them to lose any rights. They're not felons who lose their right to vote, or drunk drivers with points on their drivers license. The Supreme Court has recently ruled that sexual behavior between consenting adults is completely legal. It is very much in the public interest to afford gay couples the right to marry. Marriage is the basis for families and the family unit is a basic building block of society. I don't wish to diminish or marginalize those people who choose not to marry in any way though. Marriage aimed at forming a family should be encouraged, not discourage. Furthermore, the children of gay couples are currently living in limbo, with an uncertain legal status. This is a national disgrace, in my opinion. Hate gay people if you want, but never hate or hurt a child. And I think Europe is going to turn out ok. Don't worry, as usual, the sky isn't falling!



Swampfox
that kind of goes with what I said: it is a dead issue but heck someone can raise a few coins.

So let's forget about who you might be sleeping with and talk about "Islamic fascism and the right of this country to control its borders. "

There is no such thing as islamofascism. It is a made up word and a fake enemy. The enemy is criminal terrorists using Islam as a recruiting and justification tool.

Our border problem seems to be solved. the economy in Mexico is better than here now and money is flowing from there to here. Heck Banks in Mexico are bailing out our banks

Just answer the question
Since marriage has now been changed from a man and woman to a man and man or woman and woman, WHY cant it be changed to include anything? Dont respond with any BS, give me the legal reason WHY it could not be changed again

Higene - regarding post #305
If, as you said, "people are NOT allowed to draw lines in the sand that prohibit one class of people from enjoying the same rights as all others, period" and this should apply to gay marriage, I can think of other areas that are just as logical extensions of this philosophy as well. Do you suggest that those with violent criminal records who are released from prison should have the same legal access to firearms as all others? Do you suggest that those with a long record of DUI convictions should have the same right as all others to have a legal driver's license? Do you suggest that those convicted of crimes against children should have the same right to be a K-12 classroom teacher as all others? I could go on and on, but you see my point.

The point being, some forms of "discrimination", as you would surely call it, in our society have come about because our citizenry was not aiming at pure PHILOSOPHICAL CONSISTENCY but rather at the PUBLIC INTEREST, even though the "disenfranchised" by the policies I've mentioned and their rooting section would vehemently agree. The American people have decided - for now - that restricting marriage between one man and one woman serves the purpose of procreating our society and encouraging the kind of family structure that serves our society for the socialization function it promotes.

You liberals love to cite Europe as a role model of "tolerance" in their sexual mores. I wonder if you've noticed that the European society you so lionize is dying out - and will be replaced by a Muslim one because the Muslims still take procerating seriously. I don't think you're going to like the new Muslim "Eurabia" one bit. Well, a sizeable majority of Americans don't want to go down the same path to extinction that Europe is - and our present marriage policies express that feeling.

I think you're right Swamp
The anti-gay marriage crusade seems to be running out of steam. I don't think you'll gay marriage in all 50 states anytime soon, but I bet it becomes legal in 10 or so states within 10 years. That might make enough gay people happy that they also lose steam in pursuing the issue. Hey, let's all try to guess which ten states become the gay marriage states!

No Hal
Karl Rove, the master politician, on Sunday said that this is not the issue that it was in 2004. Only around three states have gays rights on the ballot for 2008. The ones that I remember that he said were California, Arizona and Florida. Perhaps the anti-gay industry will work hard to inflame the masses. I just don't know.

Frankly, I think that the two issues that should be the center of the storm are the war against Islamic fascism and the right of this country to control its borders.

happy jake
---THAT ban was based solely on an accidental trait of birth---

And gender is not?

---The so-called "right" you are seeking is based solely on behavior that is not normal---

Again, this is your opinion and nothing more. That does not mean that your opinion should trump the liberties of others who disagree with you. If you do not believe that it is right, then don’t engage in it. Homosexuality has been demonstrated to have a largely physical cause [mixture genetics and hormones].

---Attempts to distinguish gay marriage from child marriage (which IS legal in a number of countries)---

Ironically, these countries tend to be of the abrahamic religious variety. That said, there is a clear harm that arises that makes pedophilia illegal. The case of polygamy is shakier. If the persons entering into marriage are consenting adults, then this should be legal. Keep in mind that the raid in Texas was not because of polygamy but child abuse.

---You'll claim "Slippery Slope Fallacy" when I say this, but this is only one step in the complete destruction of our value system as a nation---

I’m not claiming slippery slope, although you are committing that fallacy, I’m saying demonstrate why your opinion should trump the liberties [including 1st amendment rights] of others.



happy jake
---the constitutions of this republic put the law-making capacity in the hands of the legislatures (who are elected by the people) not the judges.---

The legislature cannot make laws that are unconstitutional and that is where the judiciary comes in. It is called separation of powers…

US Constitution, Article III

“The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States”

---Show me anywhere in any constitution in any state in this country that expressly states that there is a right to marry someone of the same sex as you---

Show me where it expressly says that you can baptize your children or receive communion. This statement is inane and irrelevant.

---Under any circumstance two consenting adults of the opposite sex who are unrelated should be allowed to marry---

That is your opinion, but it is not shared by everybody.


Folks
That entire blog could well have been written about laws preventing interracial marriages.

Gay marriage is a none issue - no one cares. But I understand the political right is panicing about fundraising and maybe this will help. Logic like this, I am thinking 10 senate seats in 08

SL Doc and J Locke
SJ Doc wrote: " ... Most of these laws directly or indirectly violate individual citizens' civil rights, and if they are not explicitly unconstitutional, they are violative of America's English common law tradition (which is the proximal basis of all case law in our system of jurisprudence) in that they violate the "Rights of Man" premise articulated by John Locke."

Oh. I see. So judges' should ignore the explicit language (or silence) of the laws and the constitutions and cite "English common law tradition," or "John Locke's premises" in order to impose their political/social preferences on us. Well, why not cite: "My momma told me ...," or "Emily Post's 'Rules of Etiquette'" while they are at it?

Thank you for sharing.

To Lisa
Lisa writes, "You and I could decide to get married. I would finally find a conservative in my town and you can change your mind about your preference." Sounds interesting, but I am still waiting on Mary Katherine Ham, the woman who runs Townhall, to accept my offer of a date. By the way I object to the term sexual preference, I prefer the term sexual orientation. I didn't have a choice.

hombre - Concepts of legality
--
Says hombre:

"Discrimination, per se, is commonplace and is not illegal. (Affirmative action, e.g., is discrimination.) 'Invidious' discrimination is the illegal kind...."


This kind of attitude appears to hold the appearance of legality - which is to say conduct of civil government according to enacted statute law (and, by extension, case law) - unimpeachable.

As all here should know, "Invidious" statutes are passed by popular acclaim to enter the law books every day. Most of these laws directly or indirectly violate individual citizens' civil rights, and if they are not explicitly unconstitutional, they are violative of America's English common law tradition (which is the proximal basis of all case law in our system of jurisprudence) in that they violate the "Rights of Man" premise articulated by John Locke.

You know. The philosopher physician whose *Second Treatise of Civil Government* (1690) was the crib sheet from which Jefferson derived our Declaration of Independence, and one of the major influences on the English Bill of Rights (1689).

Upon which was based *our* Bill of Rights.

It is a critically important function of American courts to test the validity of both legislative (statute) laws and prior court (case law) rulings against the standard of the various state constitutions (at the lower levels) and the U.S. Constitution - as amended - at the federal level.

This serves as a check upon the popularly elected local, state, and federal legislatures, which are rank cesspits full of pandering p!mps whom you wouldn't trust alone with your dog unless you wanted to have it violently sodomized the instant your back was turned.

So let's look at the concepts of legality and "civil rights," okay?

-- More? --

Re: "Try again Hombre"
I see you did read D'Souza's article between "Jeffrey's cognitive dissonance I and II." Congratulations!

Unfortunately, your response "Try again Hombre", illustrates that you still do not understand it.

While I appreciate your effort, I don't think someone who claims that womens' suffrage in the US derives from the Equal Protection Clause has much to offer me on the issue of constitutional law.


California's highcourt dilemma
Once the amendment to California state constitution is passed, it will be difficult the United State Supreme Court to over rule its constitutionality (who knows with judges). California already has generous domestic partner laws which gave many legal rights to the homosexual community. The main right that was being denied is the right of calling their civil union “marriage”. Those who ask why people have a hard time with homosexuals calling their union a marriage should also ask that question to the homosexual community. California high court has opened a can of worms; they must now start granting marriage rights to all consenting adults. If the fail to grant marriage rights to all consenting adults, then they have created discrimination.

I'll think about it Lisa
I'm originally from Virginia, and miss it. I'd move back in a heartbeat. And if I've learned nothing else from reading these posts it's that a child is always better off with a woman and man in the house, so I'm glad that you're actively looking for a mate.

To Lisa
It wasn't too long ago that married working couples were whining about the fact that they paid a marriage penalty. And, they changed the law. Now everyone is whining about the Minimum tax. Our income tax system is screwed up beyond belief. I am childless, yet I pay taxes to educate our children. I have never had to ask for governmental assistance (thankfully) because of health problems, but pay for taxes that cover those who can't. Frankly, the tax benefits that gays might reap will be minor.

Good luck on raising your child.

Not really the end of the story, Lisa
Actually, with the California decision, I think the story has a new chapter. So not really the end of the story. Believe me, when conservative judges can't even figure out a way to discriminate against gay couples, you know there's a new story! And given how quickly Americans have warmed to the idea of gay marriage and civil unions, it seems like there's a real momentum building.

Well, not quite the end

You and I could decide to get married. I would finally find a conservative in my town and you can change your mind about your preference.

Good to know there are options however remote.

Your choice

You and I have the right to marry the opposite sex. We have both chosen not to.

End of story.

Jeffrey's cognitive dissonance II
JeffreyRO5 wrote: "The state has a history of intervening to prevent institutionalized discrimination. The constitution of the United States requires it: the Equal Protection clause. It played a big part in granting women the right to vote ...."

Jeffrey: Do you just make this stuff up?

Discrimination, per se, is commonplace and is not illegal. (Affirmative action, e.g., is discrimination.) "Invidious" discrimination is the illegal kind and the overwhelming majority of courts in this country have found that outlawing same sex marriage ain't it.

Womens' right to vote is guaranteed by the 19th Amendment, not the Equal Protection Clause.

Swampfox

I know - I am just imitating the whining.

I'm actually fine with the current condition. I also understand that I dom't have a "Right" to marry as it is an act that takes another person's agreement.

I don't see the State interest and don't want my already heavy tax burden to increase.

The difference between me and gays is they apparently have a tremendous amount of time and resources on their hands to encrouch upon my rights as a parent in term of my daughters education. According to many of these posters because single parents NEVER have time they are destined to have the heavy side of regressive taxes for things that the Constitution does not support.


Mercy and Kindness
"... who want to take four wives, or that strange guy who wants to marry his dog."

One can't help being born gay, for Pete's sake, Its not at all like the examples given here.

Let me try again Lisa
I here what you're saying, that gay people technically have the right to marry. But if you think about it, that's kind of a dishonest argument. Gay people, I suspect, don't want to just get married; they want to marry someone they love. If you're a heterosexual woman in Massachusetts, you certainly are free to marry another woman, but it's probably not your desire. So saying that gay marriage is available to you is a false promise. Imagine if the government said, "sure, Lisa, you can marry a man, but he has to be over 60, and we get to pick him." You certainly have the right to marry, but it's so severely constricted as to not be a right at all.

Try again Hombre
He explicitly recognizes that courts have a right to nullify legislation (whether by referendum or otherwise) that do no comport with the constitution. To keep saying that it's the will of the people (as so many on these posts have) completely misunderstands how the legal system works. Judges get to decide what's constitutional or not. Not the legislature, not the executive, not you or me. You can't have unconstitutional laws. No matter how they became law. Geez.

To Lisa
Lisa writes, "So why don't I as a single parent get some benefit? Why can't I pass down to my daughter all my money without taxation? It is the same thing as asking for gay marriage - that and I get to bundle into one transaction most of my estate planning needs." In 2010 if you are interested in dying in that year, you can do that. As a single parent you can claim head-of-house hold. And, of course you can remarry.

MIZ Sophie
I love you! This thread would be deadly without your irreverant wit! How many times are we expected to listen to same pious posters blather on & on about "activist judges" & "moral relativism"? (blargh!)

Jeff


That is like shouting "Because I said so".

Again, what interest does the State have beyond the contracts now available to you?


Jeffrey's cognitive dissonance
JeffreyRO5 wrote: "Drop the religious stuff!
... Our recourse is to vote elected officials out of office, folks. That's democracy, not the convoluted drivel in this inane article."

Jeffrey: The article is a legal evaluation, not a religious treatise. Part of the author's point is that this Court cancelled the votes of Californians who had outlawed gay marriage. It is irrelevant to his argument whether their votes were for "elected officials" or a referendum. Maybe you will understand if you read it a couple more times.

Jeff

Jeff you have the "right" to marry just like anyone else.

There is no discrimination.

JeffreyRO5
Your proposal is that we 'religiosos' just vote those out of office with whom we do not agree.

One HUGE PROBLEM with your argument is that they were not VOTED IN

The state's interest
The state has a history of intervening to prevent institutionalized discrimination. The constitution of the United States requires it: the Equal Protection clause. It played a big part in granting women the right to vote, for example. Marriage is a government-sanctioned contract. So, the government gets to decide who can enter into the contract. The conservative judges in California evidently decided that there was no good reason gay couples can't enter into marriage. That's about all there is to this whole drama.

Jeffrey

Again, why not make up your own ceremony? Nothing prohibits you from making your own contract. Certainly writing a will is a loving thing.

What interest does the State have in gay unions?

Explain, please.
Heterosexuals been very successful in screwing up traditional marriage?

Lisa, bad point!
An important factor about the marriage contract is that you get to choose who you want to enter into it with! We don't do arranged marriages in this country, and I suspect you would need a little more than just someone being male. Similarly, gay people don't just want a body, they want someone who they love. Just like you would. Marriage is way more than just about plumbing!

Lisa, great point!
You should petition the government, who decides things like who can marry, for redress of your grievances, as gay couples have. They won! It could work for you, too. God bless democracy!

Equality vs Equivilency

Willful ignorance has gays demanding their "right" to marry the same sex because they think equality means equivilent.

Gays still have the "right" to marry the opposite sex.




Drop the religious stuff!
Any reason for or against gay marriage based on religious principles is irrelevant! We're a secular country not a theocracy! The state decides who can marry and who can't. The state defines what marriage is, not any religious organization. So if the state decides that it is willing to issue a marriage license to same sex couples, so be it. Our recourse is to vote elected officials out of office, folks. That's democracy, not the convoluted drivel in this inane article.

Dear Higene"
You mean rights as in Right to Marry? Enjoying the right to a marriage with some eunuch or another? Or to marry the vagina of your dreams?

For that you attempt to move heaven and earth? As Mr. T says"

"I pity the fool."

Moral relativism - the rule of Man

Ever wonder why it is so expensive to go beyond the bounds of Nature?

Thank goodness we have the medical technology to prolong a productive life or ease pain at death. Beyond that - going beyond nature is just an excuse to take money from my pocket.

Gays have the ability to mke contracts between themselves, to grant permissions under a medical health directive, a will and a trust.

Do they do it? No, a majority do not.

I as a single parent will have to pick up the tab for gays if they are granted the "right" to marry. All the tax benefits will increase my share.

So why don't I as a single parent get some benefit? Why can't I pass down to my daughter all my money without taxation? It is the same thing as asking for gay marriage - that and I get to bundle into one transaction most of my estate planning needs.

What interest?

What interest does the State have in gay unions beyond contract law?

WICKED WAYS
Until recent elections, dems were unable to win at the national ballot box. So they concentrated on activism independant of national elected office. This, of course, is where court appointments come in.

On local and state levels, where liberals had the numbers, they made a practice of appointing activist judges and electing activist city councils and state officials who would help them meet their 'needs'.

Now we see the 'wicked fruit' of their labors.

Radical liberalism will always exist in some areas of the country. But responsible Americans can keep this contained and marginalized.

My thoughts
I am gay. And, I don't necessarily believe in gay marriage/equality with heterosexual marriage. That is just the way that I feel on the subject, currently.

response to Robert from 5:37pm
Robert in my opinion gay marriage does not hurt our country but their needs to be a hierarchy. As a society we believe that the best environment for a child to grow up in is a heterosexual relationship with one mom and one dad, because in general men and women are different, and a child should have both these influence. The problem is the way this, is being decided, it makes all environments the same.

Plus it takes way our civil rights to decide what marriage benefits are given by our democratic-representative process. Please understand that marriage benefits are not a right. It's not a right for heterosexuals, and it's not a right for homosexuals. Government can take away marriage benefits or it can increase them. If society decides it is beneficial to society to give benefit to homosexual for getting married, then that decision should be decided in the legislative branch of government, and not the courts. Before this decision, gay people had the right to get married, just not to the marriage benefits. For anybody could go into a church that agrees with his or her belief and get married


Swamp
"No further questions on my little experience of major depression last year."

No, I get the picture. Sounds bad, obviously. I've been distracted by other stuff and am about to make tracks anyway. Sorry for your experience.