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Monday, December 01, 2008
Debra J. Saunders :: Townhall.com Columnist
When the Warmest in History Isn't
by Debra J. Saunders
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Here's another reason why people don't trust newspapers. When science reporters write about, say, hormone therapy or drinking red wine, they report on studies that find that hormones or red wine can be good for you, as well as studies that suggest otherwise. Any science involving complex organisms is rarely black and white.

When it comes to global warming, newspapers play up stories that reinforce the prevalent the-sky-is-falling belief that global warming is human-caused and catastrophic. But if a study or scientist does not portend the end of the world as we know it, it rarely rates as news.

In that spirit, many papers (including The Chronicle) have reported on a UC San Diego science historian who reviewed 928 abstracts of peer-reviewed articles on global warming published between 1993 and 2003, and concluded, "Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position."

Over 10 years, not one study challenged the orthodoxy -- does that sound right to you? If that were true, it would strongly suggest that, despite conflicting evidence in this wide and changing world, no scientist dares challenge the politically correct position on the issue.

No wonder, David Bellamy -- an Australian botanist who was involved in some 400 TV productions, only to see his TV career go south after he questioned global warming orthodoxy -- wrote in The Australian last week, "It's not even science anymore; it's anti-science." Bellamy notes that official data show that "in every year since 1998, world temperatures have been getting colder, and in 2002 Arctic ice actually increased." Exhibit B: Richard S. Lindzen, the MIT Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Sciences, recently wrote, "There has been no warming since 1997 and no statistically significant warming since 1995."

Such findings rarely are reported, even as, Marc Morano, communications director for the Republicans on the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee told me, "Scientists keep coming out of the woodwork" to challenge the so-called consensus. "It's almost like a bandwagon effect."

The Global Warming Petition Project urges Washington to reject the Kyoto international global warming pact as there is "no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate." So far, The Politico reports, more than 31,000 scientists have signed it.

The latest skirmish in the global warming war -- barely reported in America -- occurred after two bloggers found that the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies data wrongly cast this October as the warmest in recorded history. It turns out that the mistake was due to an error that wrongly tapped September temperature records from Russia. Christopher Booker of The Sunday Telegraph of London found the mistake "startling" in light of other contrary climate statistics, including National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration findings of 63 local snowfall records and 115 lowest-ever temperatures for the month.

In an e-mail, Goddard researcher Gavin Schmidt explained, "The incorrect analysis was online for less than 24 hours." (Thank bloggers Anthony Watts, an American meteorologist, and Canadian computer analyst Steve McIntyre for catching the mistake.) The error occurred because a report "had the wrong month label attached. There is quality control at NOAA and GISS but this particular problem had not been noticed before and the existing QC procedures didn't catch it. These have now been amended."

As for the snowfall records and low temperatures cited by Booker, Schmidt chalked them up to "cherry picking" data. He added, "Far more important are the long-term trends."

Now, honest mistakes happen -- even in high-powered, well-funded research facilities. Just last year -- again thanks to the vigilance of Watts and McIntyre -- Goddard had to reconfigure its findings and recognize 1934 -- not 1998, as it had figured -- as the hottest year on record in American history.

Alas, it is hard to see Goddard as objective when its director, James Hansen, testified in a London court in September in support of six eco-vandals. A jury then acquitted the six Greenpeace activists on charges of vandalizing a British coal-fired power plant based on the "lawful excuse" defense that their use of force would prevent greater damage to the environment after Hansen predicted the one Kingsnorth plant could push "400 species" into extinction.

Of course, he could be wrong.

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History Repeats
During the 1920s dust bowl era, a new type of huckster emerged, commonly known as "rain makers". Desperate farming communities would pool their meager savings to pay for the services of the snake oil salesman. Once the locals had been fleeced the criminal would sneak out of town while the victims waited in vain for his promised miracle to manifest itself. Al Gore is just such a fraud. His proposals to alter weather are pure bunk. The only tangible effects from Kyoto lunacy will be the deterioration of the American standard of living. Far too many people have been fooled into taking his pseudo-science as fact. Sadly, BHO has decided to play upon these zealots in order to advance his adgenda.

When "green" cars
Can accelerate from 0 to 60 in under 4 seconds and hug the turns on a banked track at over 185mph and SOUND like they're doing it I'll think about it. The fastest I've been known to go was 135 on public roads (late on weekends in perfect weather almost no traffic and dry road) but on a track like at Lyme we can push our toys to scary speeds. Until you open up a 911 Targa or C4-S Carrera near redline you don't know what a car IS.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Second to curmudgeon
"experience suggests to me that we will be more likely to demand another government bailout than actually address the problem."

Experience suggests to me that industry will adapt to fill a new need, as it did with industrialization, automation, replacing animal transportation with combustion, etc. But if you -- the anti-big government guy -- trust big government solutions over free market ones, be my guest. Was that what you meant?

To curmudgeon
Perhaps you didn't read my post thoroughly. The full quote was "You are a fool if you believe that fixing the U.S. dependence on fossil fuel will help in the least, unless the huge up-and-coming Asian economies subject themselves to your measures, as well."

Get the difference?

As for your 'ilk' (a loaded term I should not have used), I know that neither you nor your higher-profile spokesmen dare to take on China. It is well that you oppose big government, illegal immigration, etc. But those issues aren't the ones under discussion, are they?

As for 'pretending the energy problem will go away if we ignore it' -- when did I say that, or imply that? If you have nothing to say of substance, just keep throwing up strawmen.

to tallil2long
You are a fool if you believe that fixing the U.S. dependence on fossil fuel will help in the least,

you refute yourself. why should i ?

I would actively like to see an America that has kicked its fossil fuel dependence, and I'm confident that industry WILL develop the needed technology and infrastructure as it becomes economically desirable to do so.

your confidence is touching. experience suggests to me that we will be more likely to demand another government bailout than actually address the problem.

But you and your ilk need to grow some b@lls and start addressing the rest of the world, if you want to play the big global warming crusader.

you know nothing of my "ilk", moron. my "ilk" is against big government, illegal immigration, lazy and useless people living at public expense generation after generation, and stupidity in general. it is the stupidity in general issue where we disagree. you think the solution to the energy issue is to ignore it, and i disagree.

That is certainly the impression I get from the progressives shedding crocodile tears over deaths in Iraq.

what does your opinion of the crocodile tears shed by raving liberals have to do with your burying your head in the sand and pretending that the energy problem will go away if we just ignore it long enough? you are as misguided as the democrats.

Second to Wrat Wrangler
Just to forstall some of the accusations that are sure to follow, I do not suggest that EVERY Muslim is intolerant or violent. Indeed, I worked with, and greatly liked, many Muslims in Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan.

But ask the folks at that Jewish center in India whether Christianity or Islam is more greatly to be feared.

To Wrat Wrangler
Unfortunately, many of our domestic activists are only brave and outspoken when pontificating in America, to Americans. They rightly recognize that they are safe to do so, but going out on a limb and talking to the *real* hard cases... well, their commitment to saving the earth isn't THAT strong!

That is why, for instance, some of these guys love to gripe about sexism or homosexual rights in predominently-Christian America, but they don't DARE talk publicly about sexism or homosexual rights in Muslim nations. Even though Persians and Palestinian Arabs lawfully execute homosexuals, and even though men are permitted to beat their wives in most Muslim nations! They recognize that Christians will, by and large, tolerate even gross verbal abuse, while some Muslims just *might* cut off the heads of critics.
I'd LOVE to see the dude who put a crucifix in a jar of urine try that crap with a portrait of Mohammed.

The fact is, our 'talking truth to power' progressives are mostly scared spitless of the TRUE intolerant groups in the world.

Second to afrika
"As for the age of the earth, I see very little wiggle room on that, and I have to admit to being intolerant when people -- for religious or any other reason -- summarily reject the mountain of evidence for the earth's and universe's age."

Why would you be intolerant about this? Every human being harbors incorrect beliefs about *something*. I do, you do, Dawkins does. That is what happens when none of us is omniscient. If you believe somebody is wrong... well, they have the RIGHT to think what they wish.

That doesn't mean you have to smile and pretend to agree with them, or even keep silent when you believe them to be in error, of course.

To Afrika
"Why is it that conservatives are suddenly not only so interested... in a particular outcome in this particular scientific debate? Where is their "healthy skepticism" on, say, quantum mechanics..."

Most of those other fields don't really involve major moral or societal issues. Why get worked up about them?
Global warming, as it has the potential to wreck the climate (or, alternatively, as putatively misguided 'fixes' have the potential to ruin the economy and blight the quality of life of our kids), is of significant societal interest. Scientific findings regarding fetal development could have profound moral impact, and thus are of interest to anyone who opens his mind up enough to question whether killing unborn human beings is moral or not.

Studies about evolution are of interest to many, it is true, simply because they have made 'instantaneous creation' a tenet of their religious beliefs. Personally, I reckon that God could use any tool he pleased to bring about the species we see today, including evolution. The same is true of the earth's age -- a specific age is NOT a tenet of my faith. Who cares? But I recognize that it is important to some others.

"You don't get into a debate because there's a side you want to "win". You get into science to try to get data..."

I will be greatly encouraged to hear you deliver the same message to those who wield Evolution as if it were some sort of anti-theist weapon. You see, both the liberal and conservative sides 'politicize' science. Preaching to only *one* side about this matter seems awfully selective, doesn't it?

China snapping up Hummers!!!!
Tell it Brother!!! China, India, Russia and the rest do NOT want the Goremobile or the latest electric lawnmower with a windshield. They want HUMMERS, Tahoes, Armadas, Denalis, Jeep Commanders! The U.S. car makers are still shipping these over to Asia fast as they can build them.

WHY do you THINK they tried to force us into Kyoto? It placed all the burden on the U.S., U.K. and a few other industrialized nations while exempting China et al. GREAT way to bankrupt the U.S. AND get us to finance it too.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!!!

To curmudgeon
What did I say about oil in my post? Absolutely nothing. Your diatribe is rather an avoidance of my post rather than a refutation of it.

You are a fool if you believe that fixing the U.S. dependence on fossil fuel will help in the least, unless the huge up-and-coming Asian economies subject themselves to your measures, as well. The thing is, folks like you are lions when speaking to other Americans; you are mice when it comes to addressing China and India, etc.

I would actively like to see an America that has kicked its fossil fuel dependence, and I'm confident that industry WILL develop the needed technology and infrastructure as it becomes economically desirable to do so. They've done such things before, several times.
But you and your ilk need to grow some b@lls and start addressing the rest of the world, if you want to play the big global warming crusader. Otherwise, you're just an irrelevant pest. America is *already* moving toward your desired end-state, even if not as rapidly as might be wished. China hasn't even started, and apparently you don't care. Perhaps your commitment to the global climate is less important that your desire to castigate your domestic political/ideological opponents? That is certainly the impression I get from the progressives shedding crocodile tears over deaths in Iraq.

To Mark_0454
Mark_0454 said: "I'm not sure why you would think conservatives are suddenly interested in Science. They have the same interest as everyone else."

You are right. I phrased that poorly. What I *meant* to say was that many people who are usually completely uninterested in science suddenly get very interested -- to the point of having strong opinions -- when Science points in a direction contrary to a belief they would like to see shorn up. Certainly conservatives have no monopoly on that tendency. However, where I've seen it the most is in the ongoing "debate" between certain religious adherents and both biologists (evolution) and geologists (age of the earth). I should have been much more specific.

afriKa

Riddle Me This
I see no lack of evidence against global warming. Not when NASA has documented and owned up to the truth. Secondly, not when satelite and radar images prove the growth of the icecaps. All the scientific jargon in the world and the interpretation thereof by otherwise political wannabes cannot eclipse the manifest realities. By the way, isn't common sense a science? Are we really supposed to buy in to the 'black hole' in the ozone scare? At least you'd think some new verbage would be dreamed up and just let the stars continue to vanish. The whole mystery is greatly minimized by moving the black holes within the atmosphere. The only lack of evidence I can find is that which propagates an idea that Santa Claus may soon be homeless!

Thanks for a fair response
D'accord. It seems we are of similar minds. Alas, most of those engaged in the debate (and there are even a handful of scientists who do this) do not address the subject from a scientific basis. My field is economics - a social science, but, like climatology determining causality vs. correlation in a complex system is perhaps the greatest question that must be solved.

The economics should not determine the science, but incomplete science should not be misconstrued when the economic costs of misapplied action can be so very high. curmudgeon for example suggests that we should abandon fossil fuels as rapidly as possible. The economic costs of such a policy are huge and the policy must be reasonably certain to yield comparable benefit before such a course is taken.

As for evolution, there are a couple of problems: First, there is not merely a missing link for humans, no branch of the evolutionary tree is without enormous gaps. Most species, in fact. appeared, absent identifiable ancestors, in the Cambrian explosion. Darwin devoted quite a bit of effort to this still unresolved problem in "The Origin of Species". And second, there is no evidence of the evolutionary development of major biological traits, most notaby the eye. There were creatures without eyes and then there were cretures with eyes. The posited existence of a series of creatures with, say, light sensitive nerve endings that developed over time into the complex occular organ has never been found at any stage.

Maybe these issues will be eventually resolved, but until they do, the theory has some major unanswered questions to deal with.

afrika
"Why is it that conservatives are suddenly not only so interested in science, but in a particular outcome in this particular scientific debate? "

Not sure what to make of that statement. I have a PhD in chemistry and have spent my time since working as a chemist. A fair number of the people I have run into have been liberal, free-thinkers. A fair number have been devout and conservative. Most of them were believers in evolution. They found a way to reconcile their faith and science without too much trouble. I'm not sure why you would think conservatives are suddenly interested in Science. They have the same interest as everyone else.

To F1etch
Thanks for the serious and sober reply, with which I agree nearly 100%.

As someone who considers himself on the fringes of science (I'm a statistician, but was trained in math and physics), I agree that ALL theories must be questioned, constantly revised, and abandoned when a body of evidence contradicts them. And I happen to agree totally that the case that global warming is ENTIRELY human-made is hardly settled. However, atmospheric CO2 -- based on ice core data -- started rising right at the start of the industrial revolution, and is now at its highest point in the last 650,000 years. The question is whether this is the main causative agent of global warming. Personally, I believe it's a huge contributory factor. And also that that's the majority scientific position. But the dynamics are exceptionally complex, so there is much to learn. Still, there are many people who dismiss this out of hand, because they think doing something about it will harm the economy. That's a poor reason to take issue with a scientific theory or conclusion.

As for the age of the earth, I see very little wiggle room on that, and I have to admit to being intolerant when people -- for religious or any other reason -- summarily reject the mountain of evidence for the earth's and universe's age.

What defects are you talking about in Darwinism, incidentally? The only really serious one I know of is the mystery of speciation?

afriKa

I could stand a warmer world !!!
`

afriKa: Clarification
Actually, I agree with you that the biblical age-of-the-earth arguments are anti-scientific. That said, while I am no adherent to inteligent design, I AM concerned with the pretense that there are not serious problems with evolutionary theory - not with adaptation and natural selection which are actually separate, but with the serious holes and logic problems with the theory (that Darwin - who was a real scientist - conceded and are as yet unresolved). The science should win out and stifling inquiry never helps.

"I think it's more accurate to describe that as the 'position' of anyone who sees their theories of 'reality' as needing to conform to empirical facts. Conservatives certainly don't have a monopoly on that position."

No doubt you are correct but we are talking about the context of this particular issue and while there is little doubt that (a) global temperatures have been rising and (b) human beings impact the climate, there is still an enormous amount of unresolved issues between those truisms and the anthropogenic global warming theory.

The debate has been characterized (at least in the media and public policy debate) in such a way that there is a "consensus", that "the science is settled" and that there is "no (or little) peer reviewed research against AGW theory". None of those characterizations are true and, as you as a scientst know, ultimately "consensus" is meaningless. the science will out - as it must.

I have no objection to the scientists who firmly beieve that the evidence is that AGW is taking place. I am interested in, and have read a significant amount of, the reserach that many have performed. I object to the suppression of contrarian views by implication - that is, not interfering with publication but perpetuating the myth that such research doesn't exist, is not credible or is "out of the mainstream".

Clarification for F1etch
F1etch said: "And pretending that it is really about "protectig religion" is either stupid or dishonest (pick)."

If you read my post again, you'll see that that referred to the battle some people (not only conservatives) have with evolutionary theory (as well as to the age of the earth); certainly this has nothing to do with global warming, although I *have* heard some people argue that God/Jesus wouldn't let this happen, at least without a very good reason, like the End of Days.


I said: "That's simply not how science is done. You don't get into a debate because there's a side you want to 'win'. You get into science to try to get data that accurately explains how things work."
F1etch said:CONGRATULATIONS! Welcome to the conservative position!"

I think it's more accurate to describe that as the "position" of anyone who sees their theories of "reality" as needing to conform to empirical facts. Conservatives certainly don't have a monopoly on that position. I've met many hundreds of scientists in my career, perhaps most who would be described as "liberal", who certainly uphold this view.

afriKa

Nice try, curmudgeon
"my post certainly attracted the attention of the head in sanders."

How is it surprising that you are attentive to yor own work?

"there is not enough oil in the entire world to withstand the appetite of even americans"

I never said otherwise. However, there is no reason not to use the rsources available until shortage makes them cost ineffective.

"the biggest laugh of all..."

...is that you can't grasp that there is no economic differenc between any voluntary transaction between two parties. Whether it is for milk or oil or BMWs makes absolutely no difference - period.

The issue is not complex at all. That someone owns the resource that we want is the relevant issue. That they may be unsavory individuals soes not change the fact that they ALREADY OWN THE RESOURCE that can be sold on the world market. Damaging ourselves economically to prevent them from capitalizing on their wealth is an exercise in futility.

"just how long do you think we can continue to buy oil on credit before that happens?"

We don't. Individuals are buying the oil becasue it is in their best interests to do so. It has nothing to do with national debt.

"you want to blame china and india?"

No.

"both were using very little oil until americans became too lazy to manufacture their own goods"

That we can get goods more cheaply from there and use our resources to do other things is HUGELY beneficial to the people of this country.

"due to our own national suicide

Say hello to Mr. Rorke and Tattoo hil you'r there on the island.

Pull your head out. Learn a little economics (such as the principle of comparative advantage) and grasp that we will reduce our dependency on foreign oil when the price makes it in our best interest to do so and any attempt to artificially accelerate the process ONLY results in economic harm to THIS country.

afriKa
"Why is it that conservatives are suddenly not only so interested in science, but in a particular outcome in this particular scientific debate?"

WE ARE NOT. Obviously, we object to the deliberate distortion of the scientific debate as a justification for governmental action that meets a specific liberal government agenda. If that attemot were not being made, we would have no dog in this fight. And pretending that it is really about "protectig religion" is either stupid or dishonest (pick).

"That's simply not how science is done. You don't get into a debate because there's a side you want to 'win'. You get into science to try to get data that accurately explains how things work."

CONGRATULATIONS! Welcome to the conservative position!

"One additional explanation for the lack of papers against global warming..."

THAT'S JUST IT! Follow the links presented earlier. The "lack of papers against global warming" is ntirely mythological. It is a sham, contrary to reality. We are fighting the distortions such as the entirely bogus "study" that perpetuated the complete falsehood that any such dearth of anti-AGW papers exist.

f1etch and tallil2long
my post certainly attracted the attention of the head in sanders. first they attribute arguments to me that i did not make, then they fail to refute even the straw men they created. there is not enough oil in the entire world to withstand the appetite of even americans, and now the problem is compounded by the discovery by the masses of asians and others that they would like to be the same. the biggest laugh of all is the comparison of the oil merchants with the corner milk supplier. oil doesnt come from cows, moron. any cow can make milk. noone makes oil. you either have it, or you dont, and we had a lot of it, and for the most part wasted it. the problem is complex, but solvable, but it will not be solved by ignoring it until our "friends" the peaceful muslims, decide that they have enough american money, and dont want any more. just how long do you think we can continue to buy oil on credit before that happens? if any american businessman was making that decision regarding his own credit customers, it would have already have happened. you want to blame china and india? both were using very little oil until americans became too lazy to manufacture their own goods, and started sending their own factories to asia to utilize "cheap" labor. now we do not even have the option of buying american made products. due to our own national suicide, asians have more and more american dollars to send to muslim countries to buy oil. pull your head out. we only have a limited time to reduce our dependence on imported energy, but everything we are doing accomplishes the opposite. the democrats dont have the answers, and most of their policies are calculated to exacerbate the problem. the republicans dont even recognize that there is a problem.

Why is it that conservatives are...
Why is it that conservatives are suddenly not only so interested in science, but in a particular outcome in this particular scientific debate? Where is their "healthy skepticism" on, say, quantum mechanics, plate tectonics, the workings of mitochondria, etc.? It seems the intense interest in scientific theorizing extends to evolution and global warming, basically to protect their twin shibboleths of Religion (Xtianity, mainly) and Business.

That's simply not how science is done. You don't get into a debate because there's a side you want to "win". You get into science to try to get data that accurately explains how things work.

I have to commend the author of this article for at least attempting to be objective and balanced (unlike, say, the utterly insipid and obnoxious recent column by Doug Giles on the same topic). But I see very little here about the actual science, just "conspiracies", supposedly committed by "liberals".

One additional explanation for the lack of papers against global warming is simply that it is difficult to get really convincing data, which is required for peer review. And that might be because there simply is no such comprehensive data. At least consider that as a possibility, rather than some nefarious liberal cabal that wants to soak your tax dollars, unless you ENJOY entertaining these sorts of delusions about the world of science (in which I have spent the last 25 years, incidentally).

afriKa

Simple formula describes this
"Green is the new Red".

Environmentalists ultimately want the power to implement their worldview, and make us toe that line.

It's not about Nature, that's an excuse. It's about raw political power.

On faith and skepticism
Abelard had this to say about exercising healthy skepticism in relation to Christianity: "We seek through doubt, and by seeking we perceive the truth."

Followers of the doctrine of Global Warming, however, lack such robust faith. They cannot cope with healthy skepticism, but rather instinctively heap scorn and contempt on anyone who questions their gospel.
This is not a sign of healthy, rational thought.

environ"mentalists" . . .
can be equated with "earth worshipers" a religion with no real understanding of science.
They can also be considered "communists" for denying people the rightful use of their property. This involves environ"mentalists" using the force of government to unlawfully take property (either by restricting use or outright seizure).
They can be considered "terrorists" by condoning criminal behavior, both by government coercion and unlawful acts by themselves and their "supporters" (burning housing developments, etc).
One only has to look at the "lynx fur hoax" that was perpetrated in order to put land "off limits" (and was almost successful) before the GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE environ"mentalists" were caught. They were given a wrist slap type of "punishment" and are STILL on the government payroll.
I would bet that most (95%) of all environ"mentalists" and their supporters have NEVER been in a true wilderness situation. One only has to look at the government protection that human-eating animals get with resulting harm to human life. (Example: It is illegal to shoot a bear that is threatening human life by the judgment of "conservation officers" who have the power to decide whether a killing was justified).
Yes, environ"mentalists" are the lowest scum of the earth. It is a shame that their "fellow travelers" that support them and their sham science organizations are too stupid (gullible) to check thing out for themselves.
Yes,I am painting a broad brush. Let the chips fall where they may.

curmudgeon, stop bleating
"either humans are contributing to global warming, or they are not."

True.

"if they are not, how much harm do we do if we reduce our dependence on increasingly expensive fossile fuels?"

The costs are literally astronomical. Fossil fuels are used for one reason only: at present they are the most economically efficient source of energy used by society. If we abandon economic efficiencies, we must, by definition, radically impair the economic progress that has so drastically raised the standard of living of virtually everyone on this planet. This obstruction costs not merely money but LIVES as medical treatment will cost more, resources expended on alternative fuels will not be available to address other health and societal problems, poverty must increase...

"if the contribution is real, how much harm do we do by ignoring it?"

We simply do not know (the knowledge base isn't even close). Speculative doomsday models may be correct, but the ones most widely reported upon inevitably disappear because their dire predictions turn out not to be plausible.

"we damn well know we are being harmed by our dependence on foreign oil."

The statement ahs no basis in economics ... or reality. Certainly, we ARE harmed by foolishly preventing the use of our own resources and, of course, as prices rise, alternatives will become more cost effective, but incurring the economic pain of interference to end "dependence" is just foolish.

"are we really so stupid that we cannot see that sending our treasure by the shipload to our enemies will eventually be the cause or our destruction?"

I would have asked if there was anyone stupid enough to believe THAT! If you don't buy your milk from the grocer do you really believe you have prevented him from using his resources in a way you don't like?!?!

How's This For Psyence?
Do you suppose there is no reason that certain people would burden us with a guilt anxiety regarding the welfare of all future generations to inhabit the earth? Believe this, the “cattlizing” of the masses is one sure way to control them. If you think this is not a pressure imposed to aid a socialist regime, then perhaps your thinker needs tinkering. By squelching our religion, depleting our economy and corrupting our morals, we are now falling like dominoes and are ready to be scraped up by any(one) even vaguely resembling a savior (who, by the way would be in league with the perpetrators up to their neck). One hand steals the dog’s food, while the other brandishes the bone. We are being victimized by the biggest scam ever submitted, and the entire American public is the target. We thought we won our independence in 1776, but if we continue to swallow this tripe we may soon just call ourselves Euromerica.

So where has it been proven?
With all those billions spent, please tell me where exactly has it been proven that man's CO2 emissions are causing the dreaded "GLOBAL WARMING"
And while you're at it, tell which "Carbon" I am supposed to be concerned with, would it be graphite, or diamonds perchance?

Global non-Warming
I'm not a scientist but is it possible that anything having to do with temperature might begin with the sun? I'm suggesting that proponents of global warming take their group to that planet and start with Kyoto type programs there.

To curmudgeon
"either humans are contributing to global warming, or they are not. if they are not, how much harm do we do if we reduce our dependence on increasingly expensive fossile fuels? but if the contribution is real, how much harm do we do by ignoring it?"

Depends. If humans are not contributing to GW, and Americans wreck our economy trying to reduce our footprint, we have done ourselves and our children no favor. And even the 'experts' differ very widely on just how deep our sacrifices will have to go to 'fix' the climate.
On the other hand, it's all gravy if America reduces its footprint... but when none of your opinion leaders DARES to point the righteous finger at India, China, etc, it will make precious little difference to the final outcome. America is an awful waster of resources and generator of pollution... but we are turning the corner. We have already instituted greatly more stringent emissions standards, waste disposal standards, etc. But everybody in Asia and Africa is still dumping their used oil into ditches. I've been overseas and seen it. America is one of the MOST fastidious nations on earth, though certain folks who never get out into the real world refuse to believe it.

Pal, if you want to make a difference, start demanding that your priests of GW take on China. You simply cannot conceive just how awful their scale of pollution is... and it can only get worse as their productivity increases.

But you and your leaders dare not confront any nation but your own, because you wouldn't feel SAFE speaking up.

John in IN wrote @ 7:51 AM EST
"Back to the horse and buggy, but with a "passed gas" collector on every horse's rear.."

Will they put that "passed gas" collector on James Hanson and 'Fat Albert' Gore? Aren't they two of the biggest horse's patoots around?

Relegated to third world status?
We have been had by the likes of Al Gore, Pelosi, Reid and now Obama, and so many more who would "bankrupt" whole industries for naught.
The biggest reason to "go green" slowly and at all, is to conserve resources to last long enough to get the technology in place at a reasonable cost to replace fossil fuels. And in the USA alone, we have enough fossil fuels to carry us for at least 60, to a possible 100 years. If we cannot solve the energy problem in that amount of time, we are mere idiots.
AGW is greatly exaggerated by those in a position to benefit from its promotion. Perhaps when they freeze their collective rears off, will they too realize that they have been had.
If Obama buys the AGW theory, and it appears he has, signs the Kyoto treaty, it may well mean the end of American dominance in the industrial world.
Back to the horse and buggy, but with a "passed gas" collector on every horse's rear..

johninoregon
"Saunders would be well advised to step outside the conservative echo chamber and do some actual research before addressing this topic."

One of the biggest complaints is that most of the people on the list are not "climatologists" and yet the main pro-AGW sources mentioned (outside of the discredited realclimate.org crowd or just a blog - climateprogress.org) are James Hansen - a PHYSICIST and ASTRONOMER - (and this is FAR from his first complete screw up) and the head of an American physicists association. Perhaps before complaining that so many are "merely" physicists" or, in your example, in astronomy, or worse, speciously mention "veterinary science", one should show a little ... consistency.

Certainly, there are legitimate caveats to the list, but, of course, trumped up lists of "experts" (desribed as being part of a non-existent overwhelming "consensus") are favorite ploys of AGW theocrats. That, plus the latest "talking points" based on distortions of what the science really shows, are about all they have to offer in the face of overwhelming evidence that they're full of beans. For an example, based on still more AGW theology rather than science, see Joe Romm's (another physicist) Climate Progress website. The guy's primary scientific affiliation: The Center for American Progress (a liberal nut-job advocacy organization).

The double standard of liberals is truly amazing!

When the warmest . . . isn't
There is lots of real science available for the diligent searcher, and it all shows that (1) there is no global warming consensus; (2) recent temperature trends have been down, not up, including recorded history's biggest drop (Jan 07 to Jan 08); (3) there is, indeed, a huge vested interest in keeping the public scared and the governments on the side of global warming. Fortunately, the US Congress had some fairly searching hearings a few years ago that confirm the thesis of this article. For additional info, sheck http://www.scienceandpublicpolicy.org, especially the Monckton documents; Heartland.org; junkscience.com (especially "The Real Inconvenient Truth"); middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.htm; and numerous other sites.

johninoregon
Go away idiot. Actually the report was peer reviewed. Isn't that what the typical brain dead liberal like you requires. And the petition has thousands of scientists. People with Phds. Isn't that what pinheads like you require. And there are several of the people who Gore sited who have now changed their minds completely. Of course being a liberal the truth just doesn't matter. Only the fact that you and all liberals are the only truly brilliant people and can never be wrong. You are such a stupid jerk. I doubt if you can even read. You probably have someone reading these articles to you and then you ask them to right things for you.

Warming Myths by Jeff Schrembs
Man can/does/will have an affect on this Earth.
However, GOD and GOD alone will determine the fate of this Earth...as well as for man (as a species and individually).
Not only should we all AGREE to do what we can to IMPROVE the Earth (i.e. recycle, conserve gas, etc.) but we should also AGREE that unless/until we AGREE on other "issues" (i.e. Muslim Terrorists/Extremists, limiting Abortions, etc.) that there will ALWAYS be "room for discourse and division".
I pray for this Country, and this World, and for every living soul...espically the Children. We should all focus on SHARING/CARING for those Children (around the World) who are wanting/starving/diseased/ and do not have enough shelter/water/etc. and take care of them...first and foremost.
Once that is done there will be PLENTY of time, and good faith, to work together on other issues.
Lastly, having "scientists" who all agree on Global Warming is like Politicians (as they follow the money and the money is "being green"). However, having an opinion does NOT make you "right"...just opinionated.
God bless this Country, and this World, and standing up for what is RIGHT/GOOD is always a good thing (in hot and/or cold conditions).
Nuff said.
NOSTRADAMUSLIVES by Jeff Schrembs
http://www.jeffschrembs.com

stop bleating and think
either humans are contributing to global warming, or they are not. if they are not, how much harm do we do if we reduce our dependence on increasingly expensive fossile fuels? but if the contribution is real, how much harm do we do by ignoring it? look at it from the other side. we damn well know we are being harmed by our dependence on foreign oil. it is an absolute lie that we can overcome that dependence by drilling in previously protected areas. in order to find the oil, it has to be there to begin with, and there is no amount that would satisfy our geometrically increasing need. so how could it be wrong to decrease our use of foreign, or all, oil. are we really so stupid that we cannot see that sending our treasure by the shipload to our enemies will eventually be the cause or our destruction? lets quit bleating about whether or not our overuse of fossile fuels is the cause of unproven global warming, and instead do whatever is necessary to drastically reduce our use of such fuels.

To "Dr" Douglas and AGW believers...
What is the "right" average temperature for the Earth? Is it always fixed forever? Does the Sun have any say in this?

BTW, do Martians drive SUV's? If not, then why have the ice caps of Mars been shrinking? Just wondering...

global warming
You have to be stupid to believe anything that any Democrats ever say. There all a bunch of pinkos.

Obama case before SCOTUS...
Donofrio case before SCOTUS ... Donofrio says Obama NOT natural born citizen ... full SCOTUS to discuss case ..

go here:

http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/




Sign petition to compel ...
ALMOST President-elect Obama to prove that he is a NATURAL-BORN U.S. CITIZEN.

GO HERE:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81550

Leftist Fear-Mongering...

Fear is the path to the dark side.

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to suffering.

Master Yoda

useless petition
Johninoregon,

How is the petition from skeptics substantially different from the list of signers to the IPCC report? We keep hearing about the 1400 signatures (or whatever it was, I am working from memory). There are a lot of the same issues -- signers who are not scientists, people who would retract their signature, etc..

I think it would be good to be skeptical of both.



Useless Petition
Saunders would be well advised to step outside the conservative echo chamber and do some actual research before addressing this topic. For example, she cites the 31,000 "scientists" who signed on to a statement from the highly questionable Global Warming Petition Project. It doesn't take a whole lot of Googling to learn that two-thirds of those supposed "scientists" hold only bachelor's or master's degrees. Furthermore, only a small percentage of signers overall have degrees in fields related to climate science. Should we really care what some guy with a B.S. in science thinks about climate change? Or even someone with an advanced degree, if is in a field such as astronomy or veterinary science?

But of course trumped up lists of "experts" are favorite ploys of denialists. That, plus the latest "talking points" based on distortions of what the science really shows, are about all they have to offer in the face of overwhelming evidence that they're full of beans. For better information, based on real science, see Joe Romm's excellent Climate Progress website:

http://climateprogress.org/

In 1978, the earth was going to h*ell,
the world would be overpopulated by 2000, oil would be depleted by 2000, we would run out of food and water by 2000, wars about food and water would be endless, and energy would be rationed because we would have no sources of production.
Within 10 years, the earth was warming, the oceans' rising, the green revolution had saved us from starvation, oil and fossil fuels remained bountiful (if locked up in the US), and we could, if needed, desalinize much of the oceans for fresh water.

The entire solar system is warming: Venus, Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto (planetoid that it now is). Car exhaust, CO2, coal-fired power plants, and talk-show hosts’ exhaust are not warming Saturn’s southern hemisphere or causing a new red spot storm on Jupiter.

The earth was warmer for the ancient Greeks and Romans who celebrated spring the 1st of February. The 100;s Years’ War was fought mostly in rain in winter as Europe was then warmer. Chaucer knew drought in March, because the Middle Ages were warmer.

At the time of Shakespeare, not because of conservation, nor an end of burning wood (the fossil fuel of its day), and no change in volcanic activity, the earth cooled into the Late Middle Age Mini Ice Age, which we started to come out of c. 1850, the exact time many greens and enviros have seized on as the perfect period we should all live in forever.

They have this vision of wandering the virgin prairies with a stray symbolic Indian silhouetted in the far distance (preferably crying) while greeno’s bomb around stoic bison riding in monstrous Land Rovers and hybrid Jeeps, in keeping with their carbon footprints, except for ruining the grasses and destroying top soil as they express their joy in Giai and telling every one else how to live.

Greenhouse Gases
Question: What is the most important greenhouse gas?
Answer: Water Vapor

The AGW zealots want us to think it is CO2.

A few years ago in the Discover Science magazine, I remember seeing a CO2 vs. average temperature graph. This would have looked alarming to the casual observer who would have perceived a strong temperature correlation to a CO2 greenhouse effect, but very close inspection with a ruler showed the CO2 increase always lagged the temperature increase. They just made the time scale so big that you could hardly detect the CO2 lag with the naked eye. Needless to say, the science magazines are completely in the tank for AGW. To them, AGW is as much of a proven fact theory as evolution and natural selection. I, for one, do not see much difference between faith in intelligent design vs. AGW. Even if you grant the the premise that human activity is warming the climate, where is the proof that it is disaster for mankind in the long term? I will grant that there is always short term pain and adjustment to any climate change, but history shows a humanity has always flurished more with a wamer climate. Since most of the climate warming occurs at the polar regions, how would having more of the Earth's surface with a temperate climate be a bad thing?

climate
BECAUSE CONGRESS GOES ALONG WITH THE ENVIROMENTAL WHACKS,THEY ALONE HAVE DESTROYED OUR ECONOMY. OIL, COAL,WOOD, OF WHICH WE HAVE PLENTY,WE COULD BE SELLING,JUST LIKE OTHER NATIONS, TO CREATE JOBS,HOMES,CARS. BUT,OH!!NO,WE MUST SAVE THE PLANET,MOTHER EARTH(HOGWASH).WELL NOW, SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN LISTEN TO THOSE IDIOTS!WE ARE IN A RECESSION,THANKS TO (PETA,GREENPEACE AND SERRIA CLUB!

To Ender
It is ironic that Americans earlier rejected the ideal of aristocracy -- but many modern liberal/progressives demonstrably favor it. They assume that their glittering leaders will live above the law that applies to the commoners, and are only too willing to accept it.

Global warming increases
the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. One of the interesting facts about liquids and gases is that as you warm a liquid, it cannot hold as much gas as it does when it is cool. Thus, as heat from the sun has warmed the oceans, they have released carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. This fact, if it was known to Al Gore and other non-scientists, has been ignored just as it has been ignored or derided by men esteemed to be scientists who have wanted, apparently, to have power over non-thinkers. So, they have declared that the warming of the ocean comes from increased carbon dioxide (and, to them, it MUST have come from the activities of people)--when the increase in free carbon dioxide has come the increased temperature of the oceans. They ignore laws of physics; are they truly scientific in their reasoning? NO!

@JAG CA
The proper term for those 'sin credits' was indulgences. Consider what the more vocal and well-known greenites do, compared to what they would have us do...I think your choice of comparison was both apt, and a bit revealing. Thanks.

To Bleeding Heart Liberal
Your obsession is showing. Nobody claimed that GW was God-ordained; you made that strawman yourself. I hope you have joy of it.

Corndog, Nobel Laureate
Corndog, I think you may just have earned that Nobel Prize with your 8:13am post. Your theory actually makes more sense than anything ol' Al has put forward. At present I can't afford to send you that $10 but I will help out by drilling holes down about 30 meters into the ground and use my car jack to push the sides apart. This should help widen the earth a little. Let me know if you need any other help. Come on everybody, we can lick this problem if we just pitch in and work together.

Faulty models and ground based temperate
These bloggers tracked down and located temperature stations (the locations are publicly available in the US) and posted pictures of stations within feet of AC’s, tennis courts, BBQ’s, trash burn barrels, you name it. In many cases, they show the temperature trend of the station spiking after the AC’s or tennis courts, for example, were installed. One station was installed on top of a commercial building only 8 feet above a roof loaded with AC units and vents. They supposedly adjust for these “heat island” effects. Yea right.
http://www.norcalblogs.com/watts/weather_stations/
My favorite is the one right next to a BBQ grill.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/11/20/how-not-to-measure-te mperature-part-75/

Another blogger picks apart the climate models. To prove global warming, you just have to come up with a large enough “destabilizing” feedback number even though there has been up to 20X the current levels of C02 in our atmosphere without causing any catastrophic runaway greenhouse effect. Since 1995 they have doubled the feedback values in the climate models which increases the climate model’s sensitivity to CO2.
http://climatesci.org/2008/04/08/has-the-ipcc-inflated-the- feedback-factor-a-guest-weblog-by-christopher-monckton/1107 /

Same BS only different
During my college days (back in the 60s) the leading scientists were all talking about the coming new ice age with all of the horrors attendant to same. Other things to get in a tizzy about were THE POPULATION BOMB or Avian Bird Virus or incurable flesh eating virus.

The chicken littles have been with us since the beginning. Man made global warming has morphed into climate change where in either heating or cooling is man made and research grants into same can be justified when it gets warmer or when it get colder.


Al Gore is nothing but a windbag who has made a fortune out of BS. If he could sell it by the ton the US would not need any additional fertilizer.

Selling dispensations in the form of green credits is as bogus now as when the pope sold dispensations for future sins in the dark ages and have about the same scientific validity.

Years ago
there was 50 million buffalo wandering around.
There were dinosaurs big as houses, millions wolves the size of pickup trucks,bears, tigers as big as semis, other game and even little rattlesnakes crawling around farting all the time...........and here we are talking about all the human crap.....Jeeeeeeeeeeeze!

Signatures
How many of the signatures on the original petition in support of AGW proved to be from scientists in relevant fields?

"Oh, that doesn't count because that survey is so old."?

No, the original survey establishes a pattern of deceit by the AGW crowd.

As I said: no credibility
Your link makes the (obviously specious) claim:

"The IPCC’s findings form much of the basis for the consensus on climate."

The IPCC is a political (not scientific) organization requiring the sign-off of no less than 130 governments. They have famously removed contrarian research, distorted research contained in the working groups and deleted all economic analysis becasue the data was so injurious to theur cause.

That "only 40 climatologists" signed the petition is irrelevant (particularly since you found it appropriate to disregard atmospheric scientists and you gave the impression that essentially no climatologists dissent. That the societies mentioned all endorse anthropogenic climate change is a distortion. In discussions with the head of the AAAS years ago it was revealed that a poll of members indicated they agreed that "global temperatures were increasing" and "man has an impact on climate" but only a minority believed in anthropogenic global warming.

"You cite the list, [true] I debunk names on the list [in your head]."

"You link peer reviewed "denier" papers [true] which in fact support AGW when you into the paper and past the abstract [absurd]."

"You said people who have a BS in "appropriate scientific fields" are on the list. [true] Can you explain why only 44 climatologists agree with you? [obviously that list isn't comprehensive] Oh you can keep the meteorologists opinions, I take climatologist's opinions a little more seriously than weather girls [you have as much credibility]."

I understand the etymology of the word "meteorology". It does nit help your case.

Fear Mongering
Justin,
You make the point that people who could not see those theories were right and therefore you are right because you believe in this one. The only reason you could possibly have to believe this one is fear. Unless you possess the tools to prove it is wrong, you are just guessing too. You probably do not know how long this theory has been around. I studied it in college in 1971 and learned that nobody, including the originator, believed that either the theory or the computer program now used is valid.

It is worse than you make it seem.
In light of every paid researcher's paper supporting the global warming theory, the fact that the vast majority of scientists and engineers believe the theory and the computer program behind it to be invalid. There are far more names of scientists and engineers disavowing the theory than there are supporting the theory. However, when expertise is included, when only those scientists and engineers having expertise, knowledge or experience in a field touching on the global warming theory, then the ratio goes up to ten to one against the theory. You are listening to a lot of biologists and geolotists and zoo ologists and maybe a number of people who think they are scientists because of a sciene major. However, none of the spokesmen appear to have majored in science or even taken a couse in science. The new head of the EU is the only world leader who sounds at all intelligent on the subject of gobal warming. He has a science background.

Science is Not Democratic
Alfred Wegener - Stated his theories on continental drift. The scientific community resoundingly rejected his theories by concensus, turns out, the scientific concensus was wrong.

Lord Kelvin - Stated that, "No balloon and no aeroplane will ever be practically successful," in 1902, agreed to by scientific concensus. A year later, a pair of non-scientist bicycle repairmen ruined his face.

It doesn't matter what the concensus said. Science is not a democratic process, it is a dictatorial one. Science only has one right answer, wishing a different answer and getting a group that call themselves scientists to agree with it doesn't change reality.

Northern Hemisphere cooling
Carl Sagan (rip) pointed out to the world the dangers of willy nilly nuclear exchange. But, we did invent nuclear weapons, and we do own the generally unpopulated Aleutian Islands. Aerosolizing one of them would be cheaper than bankrupting our country.
Another solution: an all out effort to eliminate harmful insects like mosquitos and locusts. Afterall, they are animals and exhale CO2.

The "Consensus"
Every time the subject of AGW is brought up, liberals trot out the line about the "Consensus" of scientists agreeing the AGW is real.

Anyone who knows Anything about the scientific method, can tell you that in science, there is NO such thing as Consensus.

An the other tired old canard about all scientists disagreeing with AGW are paid by Exxon, is just as bad.

Want to see, some REAL scientists who say Gore is full of it?

Check out this link, You'll also notice, it's not from some "Right wing site"

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=c47c1209-233b-4 12c-b6d1-5c755457a8af

Of course, all the facts in the world are useless to the gore-bull warming fanatics, facts just get in the way of their pre-conceived notions.


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Max
It is not necessary to hold a degree in anything concerning the weather.
A little common sense & what has occured in the past tells us all we need to know.

The earth has been warming for many millions or billions of years
The 300 feet of ice in Death Valley melted yrs ago.
The 12,000 feet of ice in the NE part of the country has been gone for eons.
And lastly, there is absolutely no way in hell anyone can measure the temperature of the earth with any accuracy....it is not humanly possible.

A breakdown ocan be found at
http://cce.890m.com/scientific-consensus/

Kinda funny how only 40 Climatologists are on board. Oh I guess you could always just add 341 Meteorologists and then say they are all "Atmospheric Scientists".

"You have lost EVERY SINGLE POINT"
1.) You cite the list, I debunk names on the list.
2.) You link peer reviewed "denier" papers which in fact support AGW when you into the paper and past the abstract.
3.)You said people who have a BS in "appropriate scientific fields" are on the list. Can you explain why only 44 climatologists agree with you? Oh you can keep the meteorologists opinions, I take climatologist's opinions a little more seriously than weather girls.

Meteorology (from Greek µet?????, metéoros, "high in the sky"; and -????a, -logia) is the interdisciplinary scientific study of the atmosphere that focuses on weather processes and forecasting (in contrast with climatology).

Actually, Max
The paper you have chosen from the list of anti-AGW papers that you now claim supports AGW theory does absolutely nothing of the kind.

The paper specifically DID NOT find that the codes used "were not flawed" and, in fact, found, as you quote, "The impact on model response to doubling of CO2, on the other hand, is quite small and in most cases negligible" which should not be true is (a) the models are working properly and (b) anthropogenic global warming is the problem posited.

Even if your take WERE correct, you are now finding fault with a SINGLE paper from a (decidedly non-comprehensive) list that goes into the hundreds, when you had claimed that NONE exited.

Please, please, please, keep making me look good by comparison. I really appreciate it.

Specifically, Max
On the very page that you selected, just TWO WHOLE SENTENCES before the quote you chose to present, can be found this little tidbit:

"Signatories are approved for inclusion in the Petition Project list if they have obtained formal educational degrees at the level of Bachelor of Science or higher IN APPROPRIATE SCIENTIFIC FIELDS (emphasis added)."

Face it. You have lost EVERY SINGLE POINT and demonstrated not only the liberal reliance upon things that just ain't so, but, by pretending that the failure to check facts before posting was a problem of MINE, you have made it virtually impossible for anyone reading your posts to avoid visualizing the phrase "the intellectually bankrupt" after your moniker on each successive posts.

Tell us: are you really Loyal Democrat performing a parody of liberal thought so that that we can look so much better by comparison? We certainly appreciate your efforts on our behalf, in any event.

Great peer reviewed papers F1etch!!!
I especially like this one...

Effects of bias in solar radiative transfer codes on global climate model simulations(Geophysical Research Letters, Vol. 32, L20717, 2005)- Albert Arking

You should go check it out. Here is the abstract.
"Codes commonly used in climate and weather prediction models for calculating the transfer of solar radiation in the atmosphere show systematic differences amongst each other, and even the best of codes show systematic differences with respect to observations. A 1-dimensional radiative-convective equilibrium model is used to show the effects of such bias on the global energy balance and on the global response to a doubling of CO2. We find the main impact is in the energy exchange terms between the surface and atmosphere and in the convective transport in the lower troposphere, where it exceeds 10 W m-2. The impact on model response to doubling of CO2, on the other hand, is quite small and in most cases negligible.
"

And that last sentence probably got you a little excited. And I'm not suprised, the abstract is probably why the admin put the article up. He probably didnt realize that the author had hoped to prove CO2 is not a key player in anthropogenic global warming because different radiative transfer codes were used in the larger GCMs and could affect the GCM responses to CO2 doubling.
However....He came to the inconvenient (for you and deniers) conclusion that the transfer codes in the GCMs were not flawed. The radiative transfer codes was found to be negligible, not the impact of doubling CO2.

So your peer reviewed papers denying AGW support AGW. You do have a very unique style of debate; prove the other guy right.

Loser, Max
This is perhaps the most common tactic used by liberals in debating any point. As each successive position is destroyed, there is no concession of defeat, no attempt to justify the earlier position. It is merely removed from their consciousness as if it never existed. So as each successive point falls (that there were no peer reviewed articles, that the existence of same could not be proven, that the topic had been deliberately changed and that quotations had been deliberately and dishonestly excised. None of that matters to the liberal if they can win the essentially meaningless point that the 31,000 signatures represented a misrepresentation of the number of contrarian scientists - meaningless because the same point had been made BY ME at the outset.

Nevertheless, Max, you have demonstrated yet again another blatant inability to read. While it is true that "over a third of the signers only hold a BS"; there is NOTHING WHATSOEVER in your cherry-picked quote that describes the "field of study [as] being irrelevant" simply because IT IS NOT TRUE.

Its really hard for liberals when facts have NO liberal bias at all.

Kinda makes you sound stupid now doesnt it?

Facts are a funny thing F1etch
"*I* made was that your assertion that only a BS degree (in any field) was required to get the "scientist" designation was factually wrong"

From "Qualification of Signers (2008)". OISM. Retrieved on 2008-07-14.
"As of 2008, the petition's website states that "The current list of 31,072 petition signers includes 9,021 PhD; 6,961 MS; 2,240 MD and DVM; and 12,850 BS"

Over a third of the signers only hold a BS with field of study being irrelevant. Its really hard for conservatives when facts have a liberal bias.

"Since you could not debate that obvious point, you decided to pretend that your point was something else entirely."

Kinda makes you sound stupid now doesnt it?

As is typical
Often liberals (NHL) dishonestly pretend that every dissenting view to their orthodoxy is based on religion and can therefore be dismissed as faith rather than fact. The irony is that the advocacy of AGW theory, at least as presented here (not to mention the welfare state, the efficacy of regulations, etc.) is based ENTIRELY on faith.

This is not to say that there are no scientists that believe in AGW theory. Of course there are. But the beleief in an overwhelming "consensus", that anyone who disagrees with AGW orthodoxy is unscientific, etc. is contrary to reality. Max, for example, never bothered to type "peer reviewd studies against gloabl warming" in a search engine. He simply went with a talking-point about a "study" (long debunked) about there being no such literature and NEVER BOTHERED TO INVESTIGATE THE CLAIM.

The arguments against global warming theory are based in the ACTUAL SCIENCE and, to the extent that it AGW is used as an excuse for intervention, ACTUAL ECONOMICS. Meanwhile, those who question the theology are smeared as deniers of science, while the political IPCC has actively removed dissenting views from its analysis, misrepresented the findings of some reputable scientists and completely deleted an economic analysis of its proposals because it didn't like the outcome.

When speaking of "sophistry" and "God" in the same breath, liberals must consider a biblical passage about a "beam" in the eye.

Yes, facts DO matter, Max
"Link to source please?"

http://petesplace-peter.blogspot.com/2008/04/peer-reviewed- articles-skeptical-of-man.html

That took about 12 seconds. Your research expertise is astounding!

"In 2001, Scientific American..."

If you would care to demonstrate even the most basic of reading skills, go back to my initial post to you and grasp the phrase "While there are legitimate reasons why the 31,000 figure is hugely overstated (like the claims of AGW "consensus")..." Actually, there's no doubt that you saw it. You went out of your way to deliberately (and dishonestly) excise it from the quote you posted.

I conceded the point you are now making BEFORE you made it. The point that *I* made was that your assertion that only a BS degree (in any field) was required to get the "scientist" designation was factually wrong. Since you could not debate that obvious point, you decided to pretend that your point was something else entirely.

Yes, facts DO matter, max. So, BTW, does crediblity. You simply have none.

Again, no wonder liberals have to pretend (lie) - contary to reality - that scientists with dissenting views do not exist in the scientific community. The liberal position cannot tolerate dissent becasue it simply cannot bear scrutiny. You guys (liberals) are way better at blind worship than critical thinking ... as your posts demonstrate in abundance.

Faith
(BHL, I notice you are the first to bring god into the question, and so poorly you should get a pay cut.)

One hundred years from now, the updated "Fads and Fallacies and the Madness of Crowds" is going to list AGW, right there with "house flipping bubble".

F1etch's comments about Hansen's work being "problematic" is telling. Reputable scientists do not do "problematic", and reputable scientists do not reference problematic studies.

I believe Hansen will be regarded in the near future as a crackpot.

Wrong comparison
This is not science vs politics, it's science vs religion. It's a jihad!

Holy war on the wallets of the world. It's a red wire, blue wire decision. Just doing something is not enough, you have to KNOW what is going to happen in advance.

When they can answer the question: What is the proper amount of CO2 in the atmosphere? Then we have something to work with.

We know CO2 makes green things grow big and strong. That's good! CO2 sequestration takes away that food supply.

How many deserts do we want to create in the name of "doing something"?

Facts do matter F1etch
"There have been numerous papers (fully peer reviewed) that have undermined global warming theology."
Link to source please?

"it is factually wrong to assert "The only qualification to be a 'scientist' in their eyes is a Bachelor of Science degree" "
Oh and abou those signers...

In 2001, Scientific American:

Scientific American took a random sample of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a Ph.D. in a climate-related science. Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition —- one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers – a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community.[20]

Again, no wonder conservatives have no pull in the scientific community. You guys are way better at blind worship than critical thinking.

I finally get it
I finally understand the reason TH is against the idea of man caused global warming.

If GW is a cyclical fact of life and therefore God's plan, we should do nothing and let God's will be. Or, if man has caused the environment to change and caused global warming, it is part of God's plan and we should leave it alone.

By the same train of thought, God wanted oil to be in the ground, coal in the mountains, and air free from the combustion of those items. But God did give us free will so of course we can drill for oil, mine for coal, and pollute the environment.

Sounds like it's ok to thwart his will as long as its for our comfort and convenience. Never mind the He has given us the knowledge of good and evil.

It appears you folks will shout God's Will whenever. It allows you to take responsibility for nothing. If your God will allow you to get away with such sophistry, He is not much of a god.

To Deornwulf
If the Greens really cared about the environment, they'd start the Revolution with themselves.

How many of these jokers have given up their cars for bicycles? How many have given up disposable diapers? How many set their thermostats at or below 65F in the winter? How many set their thermostats at 85F in the summer? How many REALLY recycle (as opposed to dropping off a couple of cans when it is convenient)?
If climate change is REALLY that serious an issue, deflecting it will take seriously sacrificial lifestyle changes for most people in the developed world. So far, the number of folks I have seen who are willing to make those sacrifices is vastly smaller than the number that gets on the internet and pontificates about climate change denial.

Wonder what *real* sacrifice Max is making for our environment?

If you can control the
weather you control the world. Well liberals cannot control the weather but they can give out the perception that they can, and thus control the world.

Green Activists Singing the Wrong Song
If the Green Crowd really cared about the environment, they would be preaching a message near and dear to a conservative heart....recycling and other green practices save money.

Sorry, Max
The complete drivel that there are no peer reviewed papers questioning global warming was debunked LONG ago. The methodology of the search for contrarian views that, if the same basis had been used, you'd be hardpressed to find papers about CLIMATE in the list. There have been numerous papers (fully peer reviewed) that have undermined global warming theology. It is not our fault that you did not get the memo.

As for the assertion tha "you can't use junk science in a peer reviewed paper, and must have evidence to support your logic", one must wonder if you have ever actually done any research or read a peer-reviewed paper. The poltical nature of peer review has long been recognized as a problem WITHIN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY.

Perhaps you would have more credibility if you could get your facts straight. While there are legitimate reasons why the 31,000 figure is hugely overstated (like the claims of AGW "consensus"), it is factually wrong to assert "The only qualification to be a 'scientist' in their eyes is a Bachelor of Science degree" and your sister would not meet their standards.

No wonder no one takes liberal talking-point science seriously. You don't win the Ginsu Knives, the year's supply of Turtle Wax or a copy of our home game, but, hey, thanks for playing!

Al Gore doctrine

If Al Gore said it - NO ONE should believe it - that settles it.

Another Lie That Must Be Stamped Out.
Professor John Christy, who has been in charge of NASA’s eight weather satellites for nearly 30 years, taking over 300,000 temperature readings daily around the globe states “variations in global temperatures since 1978 cannot be attributed to carbon dioxide.” He also produced a chart that shows in the past four years (the period corresponding to reduce solar activity) the entire rise in temperatures since 1979 has disappeared. So much for cheery picking data. Professor Christy must a right wing dinosaur, what could he know compared to a professional protestor.

Al Gore
The Nobel Prize being awarded to Al Gore is like the Oscar being awarded to Linda Lovelace....Gore did nothing except run around and show a dis -informational infomercial which keeps the protagonists in Gov.Grant $$$.By the way who stands to make money on those carbon credits...uh that would be El Gordo,leader of the hypocritical do-as I-say-not as-I do liberal/left fat cats--the chicken -little scientists are the same ones who screamed Ice Age,Major Food shortages due to overpopulation,and other disproven balogna from the 70's...when their grants started running out they had to find something to keep their lifestyles...er,did I say coming ice age...no I meant global warming.Now if the science is settled answer me this...is coffee, which science told me is bad for me but now is good for me,but is bad for me but is good for me,good for me or bad for me?.....GW another theory being preached as fact.

science...
What should be obvious is that when the Algorian ("global warming/climate change") freaks argue their point, they inevitably argue by claiming that all or most scientists -- at least, all those not funded by Big Oil -- support their side. But such an appeal to authority is not a scientific argument.

Ms. Saunders, OTOH, actually makes a scientific argument in the sense that she appeals to the DATA -- which show a decline in global temps for the last 10 years. Because the data are not on their side, the Algorians must appeal to authority.

The recent worldwide temp decline does not prove that the greenhouse effect does not exist; but it does invalidate the computer projections used by the Algorians. Ten years of declining temps do not constitute an anomalous data point, but a definite trend -- a trend in direct contradiction to the Algorian computer models. Anyone who can read a graph can see that the projected temp trend of the models -- an ever-increasing temperature with an ever-increasing rate of increase -- does not match the actual data. Algorians ignore the data; the proper "scientific" thing to do is to give up on the models as inadequate.

By the way, I have bachelor's degrees in physics and mathematics, so I guess that qualifies me in one way or another as a "scientist." So the "scientists" that oppose the Algorian GW thesis are no longer 31,000, but rather 31,001. ;)

Corndog, the NP prize has been a farce
since they gave it to Arafat and Carter!

Loved your first post!

Funny how the sun is not producing as many flares and is in a cooling period and viola, the earth stops heating up!

Global Warming...
...is not caused by us. Anyone who thinks it is, and thinks we have it bad now should read "Roadside Geology of Texas" to be reminded that during the last interstadial (warm period between ice ages), sea level was 18 feet higher than it is now. Since that was about 135,000 years ago (between the Illinoian and Wisconsinan ice flows), it certainly wasn't our fault then.

Yes, we (as a species) do need to clean up our act, but the fastest way to do that is personal responsibility and the free markets. Even with all the regulations put in place here, the free market has made this country much cleaner in many respects than the rest of the world.

The comment about the shrinking globe has a great point. For perspective, all six billion plus of us could fit inside the State of Texas with room to spare. Think about that next time you fly over the rest of us.

Read up on the peer review process
You can't use junk science in a peer reviewed paper, and must have evidence to support your logic. Maybe thats why theres no peer reviewed papers which dont support global warming?
And have any of you guys looked into the 31,000 "scientists"? The only qualification to be a "scientist" in their eyes is a Bachelor of Science degree. My sister, a grad with a finance major, qualifies as a "scientist" by these guidelines. Please. No wonder no one takes conservative science seriously.

Good Work, Debra
Once again, Debra asks "why is the Emperor wearing no clothes?" and the left asks "what is the meaning of wearing?"

GLOBAL WARMING
WHEN SCIENTIST AGREE EVERYONE SUFFER SOMETIME
GLOBAL WARMING--GLOBAL WARMING--GLOBAL WARMING

Dr. Douglas
Thank god you made clear that your comment regarding republicans doing more to harm science was only your personal opinion.

RE: Your Biases
Dr. Douglas, you maintain that academic freedom is the order of the day in most of academe, and perhaps that's true, but then why the hysterical reaction to those who question AGW? Of the 31,000 scientists who have spoken out against this idea, the AGW proponents can say only that they have a conflict of interest or that they are not really scientists. Not once have I heard anyone actually refute the evidence these 31,000 scientists cite.
Ad hominem attacks are the last, deperate hope of one who knows he or she has no argument. If AGW is real and can be demonstrated scientifically, then let those who are convinced of it answer the objections raised with science, not personal attacks.

CAP & TRADE WILL ACCELERATE NEXT ICE AGE


.....GREEN GOON NEWS ALERT ...

....."A group of International scientists working in a heavily guarded secret enclave in the Swiss Mountains has concluded that the Earth has entered into a cooling cycle that will precipitate the next Ice Age ...

.....They predict that within a few thousand years, half of the Northern Hemisphere will be under a mile thick sheet of ice ...

.....Their recommendation is that the world's industrial powers must build CO2 generating plants to pump greenhouse gases into the atmosphere" ...

.....These findings are being kept secret to protect the scientists from green-goon hit squads ...COLOSSUS

Follow the $$$...
...and power. What would happen to all those juicy grants if scientists came right out and admitted that yeah, change is the natural order of things and there is virtually nothing we mere mortals can do about it one way or the other?

Ditto for the Left's ability to control other people's lives...

Kyoto Money
The main reasons our country has never approved the Kyoto treaty are:

1) it requires us to shut down most of our industry to reach a low pollution level while allowing all other countries to ignore it. That means we do all our buying from them.

2) to combat pollution our country is to give about $100 billion a year to other countries. They can use this money for any reason they wish without any auditing but are expected to use it to fight pollution.

Why should we give up manufacturing - our only real wealth - AND give $100 billion a year away so other countries can economically ruin us?

Irena Sendlerowa
Who is she?
She recused an esitmated 2,500 jewish children from the Warsaw ghetto during WWII.

What is the pertinence of mentioning her on this thread?
She was 'runner up' to algore for the Nobel Peace prize.

Mr. gore isn't fit to carry Irena Sendlerowa's pi$$pot. Every day that that idiot holds on to his Nobel Peace prize is a travesty and tarnishes the significance of the recognition. Until he relinguishes his award to a more deserving individual, the award itself is and will remain a farce.

The Real Reason
The real reason that global warming is pushed so much by many scientists is money. They can get nice grants from various governments to "study" the problem as long as they continue to insist the problem will destroy the world.

The one thing very few MSM groups will mention is that over 30,000 scientists have insisted this whole thing is a hoax. Try going to: iceagenow.com for more information.

Tallil2long, you don't understand...
You just don't get it, do you?

Look at how America-hating fascists treat any political speach that contradicts the puke they shout. Litterally, they think that ANYTHING that does not push their anti-American agenda is "suppressing" their own "first amendment rights." For example, merely by virtue of the fact that FoxNEWs, The Wall Street Journal, and talk radio exist, it means that the America-hating fascists are being suppressed in the United States. It doesn't matter that virtually all of the print and television press is monolithically left wing biased, that there are a handful of sources to hear reportage by those who DON'T hate the United States means the rights of America-haters are being suppressed.

According to America-hating fascists, like the internet-doctor, "suppressing science" merely means publicizing any scientific research that debunks their BS, unscientific lies.

couple of thoughts
First, "scientists" are waiting for expansive government regulations to crack down on CO2 emissions. Then, after the economy is being tightly controlled, they will finally acknowledge that the temperatures are falling (all in response to the regulations of course), and claim victory. This way they will be able to ensure that they can keep their regulations. After all, who would want to eliminate the regulations that saved us from Waterworld? (Of course, once you've seen the movie can you ever really be saved?)

Second, Corndog, that was hilarious. TY!

To Dr. Douglas
Ironically, this article doesn't attempt to 'suppress science' in any way. The author doesn't call for any program of research to be cancelled or reduced. The author doesn't call for any paper or report to be ignored. The author only points out ways in which portions of the scientific need to clean up their act and improve data handling and reporting. Don't you think these things would be GOOD for scientific inquiry?

In fact, by falsely labelling Ms. Saunders' column as 'suppression of science', you yourself are hindering scientific advance by stifling honest, constructive criticism and questioning. If the majority view on climate change is correct, then this sort of criticism and questioning can only *strengthen* the case.

Oh, ye of little faith.


Let's hope it is true...
...Human civilizations have made their greatest progress during the warm periods of the past centuries.

Besides,I HATE cold,I LOVE warm!

The audacity of man!
Be it in the political arena or scientific. Man figures he knows best and has the knowledge to fix all things. It appears the audacity is economically motivated or otherwise well intentioned. Consider Mr. Gore and his financial ties to the global warming issue. Or the scientist friend who told me it is OK for scientists and government to tell little white lies, because greater good would result. The audacity is simply that some people think they know better how you and I should live our lives.

Kyoto is useless
I'm just glad Kyoto wasn't ratified. Whether Global Warming exists or not this useless sop to the 3rd World wouldn't have lowered the temperature at all.

Dr Douglas
"My personal belief is that conservatives have done far more damage than anyone in their efforts to suppress science."

Speaking as a physicist, conservatives no more suppress science than liberals. My personal belief is that liberals (and liberal fascists) have done far more damage to human civilization than anyone.

Global Warming
As anyone should know ,that the earth goes through definite but uneven cycles of climate change. thee are influences that dictate these changes. Sunspots are just one of many changes, also too is the breathing of the earth as in volcanic activity that spews out noxious and toxic gases. These gases can statistically overwhelm any man made sources. The counteraction of these gases has been negated by over harvesting of rain forests in south America and in south east Asia. None of the Greenies have the resources to counter the spread of deforestation.
I think Al Gore should return his Nobel prize for fraudulently reporting of Global Warming.

2 things..........
2 Things that the moonbat politicians in the US continue to F*ck with...........Free Markets....and supposed climate change..........

Continually, the politicians continue to get crushed by the forces that drive both.......

The only reason that Political moonbats continue to focus on the climate is that it gets them VOTES.......nothing more than Votes.

Show me a liberal moonbat that is willing to give up everything they have in the House, Senate, etc.....to really go out and fight to stop this supposed climate change......(/crickets) Sad fact is that there is no one who claims to want to save the world that is willing to give it all up.......they would much rather sit in DC, collect their free healthcare, nice salary, and a pension that would make 99.9% of US citizens green with envy...and legislate the US into the 3rd great liberal failure........(#1 failure of CRA, Acorn, and the housing mess, #2 failure of the US to create its own energy independence......and introducing liberal failure #3.....climate change.........)

Response to lTz3Td52 - 2
To his credit, Weart explains the problem of historical data indicating that warming precedes rises in CO2 by centuries – a major debate in the scientific community with regard to the crucial issue or correlation vs. causation far from resolved – but then he simply moves on as if the only issue to be resolved is the nature of climactic feedback loops.

His choice of what to emphasize is of particular interest. He mentions an oft repeated quote by a Vostok core driller that it "turned the tide in the greenhouse gas controversy” but the reality is that the greenhouse effect was not controversial at the time and the Vostok data did not strengthen the argument that CO2 was a CAUSE of GW in the slightest. Similarly, when he references AGW zealot James Hansen as simply an uncontroversial source.

The point is we know EXACTLY what we’re talking about and the assertions of an “overwhelming consensus” are STILL complete drivel.

Response to lTz3Td52 - 1
Dr. Weart’s article was very interesting though he has, sadly, affiliated himself with the Realclimate.org crowd and the summary to which a link was provided was to the general subject of the greenhouse effect (which is not controversial) rather than anthropogenic global warming which makes up only about a third of the analysis. While not a climatologist (note that criticisms about the petition complain that many of the scientists are, like the good doctor, physicists), Spencer Weart’s history of global warming research is quite solid … until about footnote 45. After that, his zeal for the pro-AGW position leads him to give short shrift to contradictory research and pretend that only research supporting the theory is relevant.

For example, we are told that “computer models were coming into better agreement on the future warming to be expected from increased CO2” but the reality is that it isn’t enough that models agree with each other. In order to be valid, they must agree with reality. Models of the past can be modified until they fit. Models of future warming trends have still consistently missed the mark and have not been successfully “run back” to mirror actual warming.

Forget Global Warming
We've got a bigger problem to worry about...
Man Made Global Shrinking.

In the 1700's in took several months to sail from England to North American. Today we can cross the Atlantic in a matter of hours.

Lewis and Clark took 3 years to go from the East Coast to the West Coast. Now any family can transit the United States in a week or less.

And just a few short years ago it took days for letters and packages to travel to their destinations. Those same letters and packages now arrive at their destinations over night.

If the world keeps shrinking at this rate the continents will collide and we'll be one big Gondwanaland. It is also a PROVEN FACT (you can be assured that it is a 'fact' when it is in all capital letters) that when continents collide, the polar bear population will be decimated.

So do your part to help save the world and polar bears by purchasing sediment offsets. Send 10 dollars for every mile you drive to "Corndog dupes gullible moonbats". For every dollar I receive, I will harvest a bucket of soil and add it to the earth to halt this horrific Global Shrinkage.

Now where is my Nobel Peace prize?

Gaia's Wacko Acolytes
As a nonscientist I'm still perplexed by the continued dominance of the Global Warming theory. Has anybody explained why the CO2 rise happens some 800 years AFTER global warming, according to that famous, now infamous, graph?

My own theory is that people who don't believe in God have adopted Gaia as their god. They're trying to make everybody else in the world sacrifice to their god, based on very flimsy evidence that humankind can actually affect the earth's weather.

We're back in the Middle Ages, folks, where superstitions and weird cults proliferate. One gigantic meteor impact, or a volcano eruption, on the earth could forcefully demonstrate that we have no control over the earth's seasons and weather.

Now I do support research on diverting other earth objects from smashing into us but trying to change the weather by throwing billions at a chimera is utter madness.


An excellent book on the subject
An excellent book/resource on this subject is "Climate Confusion : How Global Warming Hysteria Leads to Bad Science, Pandering Politicians and Misguided Policies That Hurt the Poor" by Dr. Roy W. Spencer.

History

Spencer Weart of the American Institute of Physics on the history of the theory of climate change:

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm

Even if you don't believe it, at least know what it is you're arguing against.

RE: Your biases
I think that Dr Douglas should clarify what he means when he says that "...they just run counter to the vast majority of the research." Is he referring to "research" that ostensibly supports only Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW)? Those "researchers" who support AGW number a few hundred (some say 400) and a LOT of those are policy makers and NOT scientists. However, over 31,000 REAL SCIENTISTS have come out AGAINST AGW! Contrary to what Dr Douglas suggests, there is ample evidence that anti-AGW suppression DOES exist in Academia as well as at most media outlets and governmental organizations around the world! Being Politically Correct today (ie, pro-AGW) means being able to get one's climate research projects funded; however, SCIENCE is NOT about Political Correctness and does NOT care about reported CONSENSUS amongst AGW activists -- IT is what IT is, regardless of whatever SPIN AGW activists want to put on it! Otherwise we would STILL believe that our Earth is FLAT!

Your biases
The university I worked at had one meterologist who did not believe that humans contribute to global warming. All of the other faculty members in his department, even though they disagreed strongly with him, gave him complete support in every way (this principle of academic freedom is widespread among the academic community). I strongly disagree with the notion that these ideas are being suppressed; rather, they just run counter to the vast majority of the research.
My personal belief is that conservatives have done far more damage than anyone in their efforts to suppress science. This article is but one example.

Dr Bellamy is actually English
He merely wrote in an Australian newspaper. Just a minor correction.

Warmer
Oh, and another thing--we really have had a lot of hot and dry weather here in the Southwest, but hasn't the east coast had much colder and wetter weather in the last few years? What are they reporting about GW when there is six feet of snow in september? I know -- it's Climate Change. And that's as bad as global warming.

Warming
I totally don't buy into the GW hysterics. Here in Las Vegas when they reported the news this past summer, they announced that every day was x amount of degrees above normal. I hadn't really paid enough attention to it, until one day in August when the temp was only 104 degrees. They reported that it was another above normal day. I knew that couldn't be true--I have lived here for decades, and the temp in August is normally from 108 to 115. It was actually a very bearable day for Las Vegas.
We have had very little rain here for quite a while, but on the days that we have a real rainstorm, the official rainfall is listed as .02 or less of an inch. I realize that the rainfall is only measured at one spot for the entire area, but that one spot must be the driest place in our valley!! Also, where do they get the 'normal' readings?
There was an article in the paper one day about temperatures in the valley, and it quoted the averages for the 'last 17 years.' What? Why 17 years and not 10, 15, or 20?

A sad prediction
Over the next 24 hours, responses to this column will inevitably include bald unsupported statements (factually wrong) about how every "respectable" scientist believes in anthropogenic climate change. They will post crticisms about things like the 31,000 signatures (some of those complaints are actually legitimate) and will then dismiss those real reputable scientists who have not bought into the AGW bandwagon with links and (often discredited) information from the ideological Brookings Institution or the (anything but reputable) hosts of realclimatechange.org (originators of the now-debunked "hockey stick" graph) or will reference James Hansen's work (even though it has been problematic - often requiring major revision - even before his recent screw up with monthly temperature data).

We might see references to the (entirely political) IPCC or to the (entirely political) Al Gore. Maybe someone will even post a link to the "Climate Time Machine" which is very colorful but does nothing whatsoever to support the AGW case.

Certainly, there are reputable scientists who are wedded to AGW. They may even be in the majority. Only a blithering idiot incapable of doing real research, however, believes that it is "settled" science or that agreement levels are in the "90%-95% range". Still, it isn;t about the science to them; it's about liberal ideology, so the response is inevitable.

MEDIA committing FRAUD on AGW
The despicable idiots in the MSM are to blame
for PROMOTING Gore,Hansen, the IPCC and black-balling REAL science. AGW is the biggest LIE
perpetrated in science this century. OBAMA - the 'brilliant' has been taken in, also. Bush is smarter than Obama on this subject, for sure.
Great info can be found at SPPI(Science and Public Policy Institue) and Watts Up With That.

The Bigger The Lie...
...the more they'll believe it. That, and noone really seems to care that the politicians are attempting to rollback the advances of the industrial revolution. It's all about control.

Obama will sign Kyoto. that and the willy-nilly "bailouts" will destroy our economy.

Politicians fixing WX??
I'll refer U to the TV Commercials from some years ago dealing with "It's Not Nice To Fool MOTHER NATURE"..remember those??
To think that the very same folks who feel they can "Fix" Global Warming/Cooling can't even seem to get a handle on fixing pot-holes, Bridges etc in the Twin Cities and on & on..
Scares Heck outa me!!!
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