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Tuesday, April 28, 2009
Chuck Norris :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Decline and Fall of Private Education
by Chuck Norris
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There's something the U.S. government doesn't want you to know. And it's come out again in the new Heritage Foundation report on education. It conveys that the general public is increasingly dissatisfied with public schools, with a rising number opting for private education.

The report explains that during the 2007 and 2008 legislative sessions, 44 states introduced school-choice legislation. And in 2008, choices for private school were enacted into law or expanded in Arizona, Utah, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana and Pennsylvania. Today 14 states and the District of Columbia offer voucher or education tax-credit programs that aid parents with sending their children to private schools. But that may be short-lived.

Despite the growing public preference for private education, Congress recently canceled the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program, which was created in 2004 to offer students from low-income families in the nation's capital an opportunity to join the voucher educational community. The law provided $14 million in scholarships to help pay for tuition at private schools of their choosing. But no longer.

Why did Congress nix the program, especially when recent studies showed that students receiving vouchers since the program's inception were academically 18.9 months ahead of their peers? (I read the other day that 100 percent of Thurgood Marshall Academy's charter graduates are accepted to colleges.) And why would Congress phase out a program that costs $7,500 per student annually, compared with the $15,000 it costs in Washington's public schools to educate a child?

So its cancellation is not a result of costing too much, because it's half the price of public schooling. And it's not because of inferior quality, because the kids enrolled in the program were scoring higher than students in regular schools. There's only one reason Congress canceled it, and it comes down to this: federal control and educational indoctrination.

Of course, government officials won't admit to a blatant usurpation of our rights, but they will say their educational reform is seeking to help your children. They will say it is necessary to establish common educational standards. They will say that we need to leave education to the experts and not to parents. And I fear that too many of us simply will give in to the whims of the nanny state.

As I wrote in my new best-selling book, "Black Belt Patriotism: How to Reawaken America": "The reason that government is cracking down on private instruction has more to do with suppressing alternative education than assuring educational standards. The rationale is quite simple, though rarely if ever stated: control future generations and you control the future. So rather than letting parents be the primary educators of their children -- either directly or by educating their children in the private schools of their choice -- (government) want(s) to deny parental rights, establish an educational monopoly run by the state, and limit private education options. It is so simple any socialist can understand it. As Joseph Stalin once stated, 'Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.'" (Get a free chapter of my book at here.)

What's amazing, too, is how hypocritical it is for Congress to make this decision. The Heritage Foundation's report also conveys that 44 percent of current United States senators and 36 percent of current members of the U.S. House of Representatives have "at one time sent their children to private schools." While the foundation found that 11 percent of American students attend private schools, 20 percent of the members of the 111th Congress attended private high schools. And they want to remove the voucher option for private school education?

While the members of President Barack Obama's administration profess to have education as a top priority, they did nothing in March when Congress chose to discontinue the Opportunity Scholarship Program. Why? Because they all are in cahoots to not only choose our medical care for us, own the mortgage insurance and finance businesses, and place caps on corporate earnings but also control our educational choices for our children.

Our Founders' educational philosophy seems to me to be the charter of a true American system of education. But as we know, our nation's public schools, especially our nation's colleges and universities, are the seedbeds of politically correct and leftist indoctrination. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. It's a travesty that we have come to the point that we have to protect our children from the public school systems by looking to alternative methods.

If you have a good public school, congratulations. Stay active in the PTA, and attend school board meetings to keep it that way. For many parents, the only responsible choice is to send their children to private, parochial or Christian schools or to home-school their children. My wife and I home-school our 8-year-old twins.

What I also think is good about private schools is the students' wearing uniforms. Just like in my KICKSTART martial arts program for kids in Texas schools, uniforms in private schools give students a sense of pride and empowerment. They increase the atmosphere of respect. And uniforms make economic class more of a nonissue, making rich and poor students indistinguishable -- not to mention the fact that uniforms do away with young people's style of wearing their jeans down to their knees and showing their butt cracks!

Parents deserve educational choices; choice is what this country was founded upon. Government's controlling and monopolizing education is just another avenue for usurping power and control on the slippery slope to socialism. And it's unbecoming for our republic, whose Founders created a system of freedom, choice and minimal government intervention.

Is it merely coincidental that the private choice of home schooling was outlawed by the Soviet state in 1919, by Hitler and Nazi Germany in 1938, and by Communist China in 1949?

Is America next?

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About The Author
Chuck Norris is a columnist and impossible to kill.
 
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There already is school choice
Any parent who desires an education for their child will not send her to public school.

Indifferent parents or those looking for taxpayer funded daycare send their children to public schools. Since indifferent freeloaders make up the vast majority of the voting population, public schools are here to stay.

But parents do have a choice.

Problem of education entitlements 1 of 2
"There's only one reason Congress canceled it, and it comes down to this: federal control and educational indoctrination."

But that's exactly why Homeschool Legal Defense Association and many homeschoolers OPPOSE vouchers. Taking taxpayer dollars means meeting government established criteria which can lead to government control.

"discontinue the Opportunity Scholarship Program"

Do you mean they ended a voucher program (taxpayer funded) or did they end an actual scholarship program that was privately and voluntarily funded? There's a big difference between the two.

"So rather than letting parents be the primary educators of their children -- either directly or by educating their children in the private schools of their choice"


A primary educator is someone who is doing HANDS ON day to day teaching. A producer of education. Any parent sending their child to an institution is not a primary educator. They are consumers of education services.

"-- (government) want(s) to deny parental rights, establish an educational monopoly run by the state, and limit private education options."

Homeschooling and private schooling are legal in every state. Regulation of homeschooling has been steadily decreasing for the last 20+ years. What are you talking about?

If you want freedom for parents then you must end public education and stop taxing the people for it. Let them spend their own money (not taxpayer money) directly. Some sort of proposal will have to be made for the children of the poor.

Parents can then send their children to the private of school of their choice as long as they pay for it themselves.

Problem of education entitlements 2 of 2
"It's a travesty that we have come to the point that we have to protect our children from the public school systems by looking to alternative methods. "

No, it isn't. It is a very in keeping with "yankee ingenuity" that people in the private sector and coming up with different and innovative ideas. It's a travesty that America bought into socialism with public education to begin with.

And, if you're a pioneer homeschooler (one who thinks children are DESIGNED to be educated in a family rather than an institution) you are THRILLED the natural order is being restored through hoemschooling.

"Parents deserve educational choices; choice is what this country was founded upon."

Yes. Everyone who is not poor has a choice.

"Government's controlling and monopolizing education is just another avenue for usurping power and control on the slippery slope to socialism."

Yep. We got here as a society by buying into socialism by establishing public education and now Americans are so brainwashed and government dependent even those who are not poor are sure they cannot manage to educate their children without the government's/taxpayer's help. What a mess we are in as a nation.

How to have a choice
There is a myth in our culture that we live in a two income economy. Millions of people around the country earning average incomes are living proof this is not true. They are able to homeschool their larger than average number of children on one income.

Others have mom working during school hours to cover the cost of tuition at a private institution (many of which have a tuition at the same or lower cost than the state's average per pupil funding.)

To insure educational options on a modest income do the following:

1. Ladies, marry a man with a marketable skill and an excellent work ethic who shares your views on finances, child rearing, religious/philosophical beliefs, and lifestyle choices. If you are not practically compatible in addition to romantically attracted you will probably get divorced. Single parenthood almost always eliminates financial freedom to choose educational options unless you earn a lot of money.

2. While you are a "Dual Income No Kids" couple make every single financial decision on the husband's income. NO EXCEPTIONS! Put the wife's income in savings.

3. Avoid debt like the plague. Debt is the enemy.

4. Mom stays home and raises the infant-preschool kids herself careful to instill nurture and discipline. Badly behaved children are difficult to teach and will not make it in a homeschool or private school setting. Look into private and home options in these years so you don't make any knee-jerk decisions.

5. If you choose private school over homeschooling, mom returns to the workforce during school hours and her income covers tuition.

Way too many couples marry for the wrong reasons and make financial decisions based on the moment- not long term. They eliminate choices in their futures by making bad choices in the present.

Sacrifice
It is called sacrifice!!! Private school tuition requires you to pay double for your childrens' education. You pay property tax which goes to your public school and you pay tuition to your private school. We did this for our children and are doing it again for our grandchildren. My grandson in kindergarten reads anything you put in front of him and he thanks his teacher at the end of the day for his learning experience. The school believes that if a teacher is doing her job, the children do not have three hours of homework either. Public schools basically put their job on parents in the form of hours and hours of homework.

EXTRA Norris materials at WND
Chuck wrote EXTRA material in his exclusive version of this same article at World Net Daily http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=96204

“Phasing out a federal program might seem appealing, since so many of us are crying for less not more government. But when phasing out leads to bigger government and less personal choices, they’re again revealing one more sign of a system gone awry. That’s pure and simple lip service to educational reform. The federal government seems fine with options to education, as long as they are controlled by them or their puppet-union organizations. Their educational tyranny is now clearly seen from the nation’s capitol to the “Left-coast.”

“More proof of that came recently to my ears when I was speaking to a friend in California who has taught in public schools there for 30 years. She told me the school no longer begins their day with the Pledge of Allegiance, but a “patriotic observance.” During the presidential election, teachers were lined up in the library to take a photo with a stand-up cut out of Barack Obama (no other candidate offered). Without any prior consent or vote, the school union allocated $1 million to fight pro-Prop 8 (anti-gay marriage amendment). At the beginning of a faculty meeting, a teacher spoke up to remind everyone to vote against Prop 8, to which no rebuttal was welcome. My friend told me that at this point conservatism in any form is completely ostracized in her school—something that has radically changed over the past three decades. But aren’t we supposed to be offering education rather than merely left-indoctrination?


EXTRA Norris materials #2
“On December 26, 1820, Thomas Jefferson wrote to Destutt Tracy about his vision for the University of Virginia (chartered in 1819), “This institution of my native state, the hobby of my old age, will be based upon the illimitable freedom of the human mind, to explore and expose every subject susceptible of its contemplation.” One day later he wrote to William Roscoe a similar but expanded thought, "This institution will be based on the illimitable freedom of the human mind. For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it."

“The Founders educational philosophy even included teaching on the Bible. As Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", on March 28, 1787: "Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education.”

“Noah Webster, the "Father of American Scholarship and Education," stated, “In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed…No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

EXTRA Norris materials #3
In 1789, during the same time when the First Amendment was written, then President George Washington signed into law the Northwest Ordinance, which states, “Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.”

That is why my wife, Gena, and I are on the board of “The National Council of Bible Curriculum in Public Schools,” which is about teaching the Bible as history and literature and also morals. It has been implemented in 478 public school districts and 1975 high schools in 37 states to implement a course on it. 320,000 students have already been taught from it. You too can learn more about the curriculum, why its teaching is constitutional, and how it can be implemented in your public school by contacting:

National Council On Bible Curriculum In Public Schools
Post Office Box 9743
Greensboro, North Carolina 27429
(877) OnBible
(336) 272-3799
(336) 272-7199 (fax)
http://www.bibleinschools.net

CHECK IT OUT AT http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=96204

Chuck's chaplain??
Fascinating story how he led the "Laus Deo" crusade for Christian revisionist changes at the Washington Monument. See his story and FOXNEWS clip at http://www.nationaltreasures.org/CR_MonOmi.html

Dixie- Myth of paying twice
Very few parents actually pay twice. Some only pay a portion and many don't pay at all. Others with no children are still stuck paying.

It now costs on average, $10,000 per year per child K-12. How many parents out there are paying that in full from their own tax bill?

You pay once if you are paying for a private education (institutional or home) out of your own pocket.

You pay twice if you also pay in taxes what it would cost the state to educate your child(ren.)

Amen, Chuck Norris!
I hold a Ph.D. in a subject related to education and assure you that you are 100% correct that indoctrination is now the raison d'etre of public schooling. That is why George Bush's expansion of the Dept of Education was hideous. Keep up the good work. You rock.

Fix
WE CAN FIX OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM

A system that teaches to the median will bore one half of the class and not reach the other half.  The fix is simple, albeit disruptive.  Individualized instruction.  Since there are many gifted teachers, video lectures and interactive lessons could easily be developed for everything imaginable that would allow students to move at their own pace. 

A system that cannot rid itself of incompetent teachers and administrators must be flawed.  Eliminate tenure laws.

A system that continues to take a larger part of the budget and continues to slide backwards must be flawed.  I have an IMAC desktop that retails for about a thousand dollars and high speed internet access is available for less than $100 a month.  For many students that means total cost after the third grade would be less than $2500 a year compared to over $10,000 today.

A system that favors rights without responsibilities must be flawed as disruptive students are stealing from those who want to learn.  The fix is not so simple but rules have been developed. Let’s enforce them.


unions have Congress by the short hairs
re:
"There's only one reason Congress canceled it, and it comes down to this: federal control and educational indoctrination."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The teachers' unions represent some 2 million. More than any other reason, they account for the decline of public education with their PC agenda and their protect the lowest common denominator standards.

They pervade many myths about education, such as the hackneyed one about their being underpaid-- if only we would pay bad teachers more, the results would improve:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1955153
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_nypost_teacher_pay _myth.htm
http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2005/05/the_teacher_s al.html
http://bennett.com/blog/2007/02/the-myth-of-the-underpaid-t eacher/

excerpts:
"If we are to improve public schools, we must understand that the facts don't always square with our impressions. The story that on average school teachers are underpaid compared to other professionals is as widely told as anything from Aesop, and is just as mythical."

"Wow! Its no wonder that the NEA hates the idea of school choice and competition from private schools. They have built a public employment gravy train, with premium salaries, no real penalty for under-performance, and double digit raises for a 180 day a year job — all while selling the media on their woe-is-me-we-are-underpaid myth."

press pass for the Obamas
What was barely reported by the media is that the ObaMessiah and Michelle chose to send THEIR daughters to a VERY exclusive private school, Sidwell Friends. Defendants will bray that it is easier to make things secure for them there. Hmmm. That sounds OK until you study it closer and discover that the Jessuh Jackson's, the Congressional Colored Caucus, etc., also send their children there or to other private Washington area schools.

Funny thing how the chosen few among the race hustler black leaders, those who enrich themselves on the "poor people," decide not to send THEIR children to the public schools that they insist that YOUR children should attend and resist vouchers for same to have a choice. Hmmm.

Chuck is a Double-Talker
"Congress recently canceled the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program"

NO CHUCKY, The program EXPIRED.

You Know, ONE OF THOSE "FEDERAL SPENDING PROGRAMS" YOU HATE.

The ONE and ONLY FEDERAL VOUCHER PROGRAM in AMERICA.

I guess it's OK as long as you can funnel the money to PRIVATE BUSINESSES, RIGHT CHUCK?


union-plagued public schools

There is only one area where unions have not waned in influence in recent years-- unions of those working for government who can force the taxpayer to eat their increased costs.

Consider teachers, postal workers, and bureaucrats... are you impressed with the service you receive from ANY of these "public servants?"

Postal worker clerks make exactly twice what their counterparts do working for the competing private companies... but ask yourself this-- if it is REALLY important to get it there on time, would YOU rely on the U.S. postal service?!

Teachers whine and bray perpetually about being, "underpaid professionals." Yet if you look at the average teacher salary, and especially if you factor in their true qualifications (such as Education majors-- an oxymoron to be sure), generous benefits including teacher pensions, time off, and job security versus other options, teaching starts to look pretty darned attractive!

And what of this tripe about you cannot truly test a teacher with written competency tests... how then can THEY presume to test your child's competency?

And WHY should someone who purports to teach students in H.S. not have to pass 8th grade equivalency tests with flying colors?

Something is rotten in the teachers' lounges-- all of the brayed bromides of vacuous apologia.

CHUCK SAID,
"The rationale is quite simple, though rarely if ever stated: control future generations and you control the future."

In essence the above statement has been voiced by every socialist/marxist dictator in the world.

In the beginning it is indoctrination/brainwashing then comes the spying on parents and neighbors for their master.

When the children have completed this phase of their 'education' they are augmented into the "BROWNSHIRT BRIGADES" as Germany's youth were trained by Hitler.

The "BROWNSHIRTS" later became Hitler's bodyguards. We know them as the SS TROOPS...and most of us know the rest of the story...but our youth of today KNOW NOTHING ABOUT OUR HISTORY!!


about homeschooling
Someone mentioned the success of homeschooling...

The NEA opposes homeschooling, as well as vouchers for private school, because they make the poor results of public schools, at GREAT taxpayer expense, so glaring.

The typical homeschooler makes in the 85th percentile on those standardized tests where where publicly schooled scores have generally eroded since the 60's. We spend 10k per capita on public schooling for too often underwhelming results... and there is NO correlation between the magnitude of spending and measured results.

Notwithstanding fatuous suggestions that homeschoolers will lack social skills, quite the contrary, they actually excel in team player interpersonal relations, and tend toward leadership positions when they go to college or segue to "regular school." Actually, homeschoolers participate in many group activities among themselves and others.

The NEA likes to challenge the qualifications of homeschool parent teachers, but the relative results make that challenge silly and presumptuous prima facie. Parents teaching their children, by definition, have exemplary dedication to their welfare... and their relative success is a res ipsa loquitur (speaks for itself).

Why not give homeschool parents at least a tax credit, since they are saving considerable $ and helping to minimize alleged overcrowding?

Homeschool Mom
If I pay monies from my own pocket for my child's private education and also pay property taxes which fund public education, how am I NOT paying twice?

an EXCELLENT guest post I saved...

stephen Location: MD
NEA and the negligence of GOP and Dems

I'm an NEA member. It serves a useful purpose to sponsor state affiliates that can bargain with local systems about pay and conditions.

Unfortunately, it drifts into all kinds of extreme left positions that have little to do with the every day needs of kids. There is a learning deficit in US schools when it comes to the basics of science, math, English and most of all civics as we used to know it.

The NEA would divert resources from the basics and the teaching of American history and culture as it really was, to a scrubbed version of history and English that makes mediocre literature acceptable because of authors from minority groups who don't match up to our greatest writers in English.

History is now taught totally as the history of the civil rights movement. There is no place for patriotism or pride in the accomplishments of the military in the schools.

While the NEA plays a negative role when it strays from its economic function as a bargaining agent for teachers, and focuses on lobbying and electing liberal Democrats, it is primarily the fault of local school boards, parents and state education agencies that PC education, promotion of socialist learning theories like group learning and constructivism, and anti-American ideology all flourish in our schools.

Republican governors and education commissioners are just as guilty as Democrats in this utter destruction of education. We will be left in the dust by China and India, which do not bother with such silly nonsense, but stick to teaching hard rigorous courses and turning out well educated linguists, doctors and engineers. We will have to import all our professionals from abroad, except for lawyers and community organizers.

Our brightest kids are encouraged to become Barack Obama's, not science researchers, engineers, or historians of actual US or English History.

HOME SCHOOLING PAYS
I know parents are angry in America especially when they are ordered to send their children to failed schools run by the NEA who knows nothing about teaching and who cause children to fail. Almost all of the children in these failed schools are there wasting the other children’s time who really want to learn something.

My brother, Dennis, retired CWO3, was a chopper pilot during Vietnam with Engineer, and Math Degrees, but no certification from the Department of Education to teach his grandsons their reading, writing and arithmetic.

Dennis home schooled his two grandsons, John Leverette 5YO and Eric Leverette 4YO from kindergarten age through the 8th grade. Both entered high school as freshmen. The age difference was never a problem. The beauty of this situation was they each had a buddy to interact and play with in the rumble, tumble world of rambunctious kids, “EACH OTHER”.

They helped each other in their many and diverse subjects from foreign languages, French and German to American history, geography, math, algebra, geometry, calculus, American and European literature, art, science and biology, et cetara.

John and Eric were thoroughly qualified to begin studies in high school. Plus they were taking correspondence college courses via the Internet. Their home schooling by their grandfather, Dennis Leverette, CWO3, U.S.ARMY (Retired) ensured his grandsons would graduate high school.

The results of their final tests to qualify for the 9th grade revealed both John and Eric were in the top 99th percentile on the WAIS-III, Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale. Their ACT/SAT scores were 36/2400. Both were contacted by several universities offering scholarships.

Proof! Home schooled children are much better trained in manners, diversity in subject matter, discipline, study habits and responsibility of their actions.



the homeschool alternative
Academic Performance--

* The home-educated typically score 15 to 30 percentile points above public-school students on standardized academic achievement tests.

* Homeschool students score above average on achievement tests regardless of their parents’ level of formal education or their family’s household income.

* Whether homeschool parents were ever certified teachers is not related to their children’s academic achievement.

* Degree of state control and regulation of homeschooling is not related to academic achievement.

* Home-educated students typically score above average on the SAT and ACT tests that colleges consider for admissions.

* Homeschool students are increasingly being actively recruited by colleges.

Social, Emotional, and Psychological Development

* The home-educated are doing well, typically above average, on measures of social, emotional, and psychological development. Research measures include peer interaction, self-concept, leadership skills, family cohesion, participation in community service, and self-esteem.

* Homeschool students are regularly engaged in social and educational activities outside their homes and with people other than their nuclear-family members. They are commonly involved in activities such as field trips, scouting, 4-H, political drives, church ministry, sports teams, and community volunteer work

http://www.nheri.org/Research-Facts-on-Homeschooling.html
http://www.nheri.org/


There is only one problem ...
with vouchers. Vouchers will promote government involvement (meddling) in school curriculum, hours of operation, civil rights statutes etc. unless steps are taken to keep this from happening.
Just look at the two private colleges (Hillsdale and Grove City) that had to REFUSE ALL federal funding to be truly free of "government involvement". They could not take "veterans benefits" or "Pell grants" even though these monies are paid to the STUDENTS. The supreme court used the "one drop" rule as to finances. If the schools took "one drop" of "federal funds" even though the "funds" went to the student, federal mandates had to be followed. The "commerce clause" to the Constitution has been so perverted away from its "original intent".
The only way for "vouchers" to work would be to institute a "tax deduction" not unlike the mortgage interest tax deduction. In this way, "government influence is kept away from the private schools that choose to accept vouchers.

where is "everyonesfacts"?
It will not be long before "ëveryonesfacts" shows up here to defend the NEA and public education with the standard litany of apologia about the beleaguered, underfunded public education system.

In reality, public education is a black hole-- the profligate, inveterate, ineluctable giant sucking sound of union-plagued failure.

You Had Me
Dear Mr. Norris,

You had me there, until you mentioned uniforms - talking about the pride they instilled. And then in the next sentence, talked about "individuality." And then mentioned Communist China, which used to make all of it's people wear the same pajama-clothes ("for the sake of the revolution")

Some private schools have uniforms, some don't - but it's not a solution for public schools. the solution for public schools is to take those kids who don't want to work and put a rake in their hand, a shovel or a broom. Work or study. Special Ed kids who work hard sometimes surpass the kids who have the gifts but not the will - and if Special Ed kids want to learn, don't get in their way. On the other hand, if kids who don't use their gifts refuse to work, don't get in their way, either: send 'em packing.

But uniforms are a totalitarian's dream. I wish you had just left that out.

the theory behind public education...
re:
"If you want freedom for parents then you must end public education and stop taxing the people for it. Let them spend their own money (not taxpayer money) directly. Some sort of proposal will have to be made for the children of the poor."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

...has always been that all of society benefits from the public education/literacy of all. Unfortunately, the poor would not do this. This is a KEY reason why ILLEGAL aliens are enervating/decimating America-- they will be the new permanent underclass of ignorant poor guvment dependents. We are worried about the wrong swine flu spreading.

Unfortunately, the self-perpetuating NEA took public education down the wrong paths of PC and enriching the teachers irrespective of competence.

As expressed so well in the 8:15 post by an NEA member, we are reaping the failure that the NEA has sown.

Another major myth
is class size. Unfortunately many teachers, for reasons I can't explain, lol, don't seem to command much respect for their students, and so the NEA's answer is less kids, and keep the remainder on ritalin, so the poor teacher can more easily control them.

Let's look at average high school class sizes, stats from nationmaster. Japan, 35.5 students, Hong Kong, 31.9 students, U.S. 18.3. Whose kids are doing better at math and science?

Oh and for fun, public spending on education as % of GDP: U.S. 5.85%, Japan 3.65% andHong Kong 4.2%.

Now, consider the following, bearing in mind that Japanese teachers have less money and twice as many students. 35% of U.S. kids dislike school, compared to 25% of Japanese kids. 65% of U.S. kids find school boring, only 32% of Japanese kids do. 38% of U.S. kids report high levels of disorder in their classes, compared to 17% of Japanese kids.


more about the homeschool alternative
Homeschooling – that is, parent-led home-based education – is an age-old traditional educational practice that a decade ago appeared to be cutting-edge and “alternative” but is now bordering on “mainstream” in the United States. It may be the fastest-growing form of education in the United States. Home-based education has also growing around the world in many other nations (e.g., Australia, Canada, Hungary, Japan, Kenya, and the United Kingdom).

· There are about 2 million home-educated students in the United States. There were an estimated 1.8 to 2.5 million children (in grades K to 12) home educated during 2007-2008 in the United States. It appears the homeschool population is continuing to grow (at an estimated 5% to 12% per annum over the past few years).

· Families engaged in home-based education are not dependent on public, tax-funded resources for their children’s education. The finances associated with their homeschooling likely represent over $16 billion that American taxpayers do not have to spend since these children are not in public schools

· Homeschooling is quickly growing in popularity among minorities. About 15% of homeschool families are non-white (i.e., not white/Anglo).

Oracle 1
I've seen two types of homeschooled kids:

1) Kids taught by determined parents - determined to see that their kids succeed. They come from both religious families and counter-culture families. Some are conservative; others are not. These types of kids - children of determined, intelligent parents - succeed on many levels: athletically, socially and educationally. They mix well with their peers, rarely bully others and are generally very good citizens. They are achievers and tend to be adaptatable in diverse environments.

2) This 2nd group consists of kids who are lazy, disrespectful and spoiled. Mommy and Daddy took them out of government schools because the teachers wouldn't feed their need for adulation. These are narcissistic ninnies, prone to temper tantrums, and extremely demanding. They usually don't follow any curriculum for long, and when they come of age, they just drop out. Many of these come from religious backgrounds (but so do the successful ones.) They're ignorant, opinionated and rude; they are the type of people who yell at food-servers, Waiters and Waitresses. Prone to narcisissm and histrionics, they serve no useful function in any society. They are future drones.

I've seen more of the 1st group than the second, but the 2nd group, unfortunately, exists in too many numbers to ignor; they are a reality. They are future entitlement-seekers, expecting what they did not earn and what they do not deserve.

The 1st group, however, will eventually rule over the 2nd group, because when there're no entitlements left to give, the educated with self-motivation and self-interest will know how to take care of themselves. They will adapt.

Not so for the second group, who are taught to become parasitic.




Chuck
"If I pay monies from my own pocket for my child's private education and also pay property taxes which fund public education, how am I NOT paying twice?"

The use of property taxes to fund education was, as you may be aware being from Maine, a huge issue in the Granite State not long ago. Our state Supreme Court ruled that using property taxes to fund education was contrary to the NH State Constitution. The solution, the creation of 'donor' and 'recipient' communities based on enrollment, has been met with much criticism as well, and many here are still not satisfied with it.

Forgot the issue of teacher's unions
This was a good article but it did not mention or deal with one of the root causes of the left's rejection of school choice; teacher's unions. The teachers unions are clearly looking to solidify and otherwise perpetuate their control over the educational system that provides them with ever increasing amounts of pay, fewer students, and no accountability for results.

reply to: Jim
We have not seen your second group among homeschoolers in 3 states where we have been in homeschool groups, though I certainly went to private school (7 years in the 60's) with some spoiled, narcissistic brats.

Your beef would seem to be more with poor parenting than with homeschool which is a proven, successful education option. In truth, homeschooling is an EXCEPTIONAL bargain and value to society.

The data are myriad on homeschoolers proving themselves in group activities as leaders and team players-- not at all the too-long-breast-fed/overly indulged that you describe.

Do you fathom that public school is not also burdened by parental failings? This is one of the key pillars of NEA apologia.

Let Parents Choose
Stop letting the teacher's unions ruin our schools.

School "choice" only exists for those who can afford it, unless vouchers become available to anyone who requests it.

Why should vouchers be available only to those whose schools are underperforming, or to those children with special needs?

Each and every parent should have the option of taking a voucher worth the amount of the tax money that is paid into the public school program, and using it to send their child to the school of their choosing—public, private, or parochial—it should be the choice of the parent!

Homeschooling works...
That may be the reason it is feared so much in the liberal community. I had an experience last year that I think cogent: I have several degrees but no teaching certificate; in a discussion with a neighbor who was homeschooling her twins, she mentioned the difficulty of teaching some subjects which neither she nor her husband had ever taken, the most important being Latin, which they both recognized to be so important to scientific and language comprehension. I volunteered to help her any time she got 'stuck.'
Several days later, she came back with a new proposition; there were other parents who also would have their children learn Latin, and could I teach a class? I am not writing about an in depth study of De Bello Gallico, rather the basics of how the language worked and tons of vocabulary.
Upshot was nine kids, ranging in age from 7 to 12 who went through the text ($5.98 @ Barnes and Noble - as opposed to $71.00 for a language text at the local school) in about fifty hours.
Our local school system had an abortive Latin class -dropped for Spanish- but it was considered too esoteric (to quote one school board member) and too difficult fot young minds. Which says it all....

Why did Congree cancel that money?
Can we spell payback? The Teachers Union spent a lot of money on getting this President elected as did Unions in eneral. That is why this presidency is for Public Education, for giving Unions a 50% ownership of Chrysler and the list will get longer.

Home Schooling
My kids were mostly home schooled, one completely. One daughter is head of her math department at a charter school, one is an accountant, one is part owner of a trucking company, and my son is a computer engineer. Believe me, it works.

To Dave
It's fine that you "have several degrees" re homeschooling. But are you aware that some states have NO educational background requirement for the homeschooling parent, NO record-keeping requirement, and NO testing requirement? And that some homeschoolers want no state-imposed curriculum? Put all this together: it is legally possible in the United States to have a mother who dropped out of school in 8th grade teaching her senior high school sons and daughters anything that occurs to her and doing no evaulation or record-keeping to establish progress or the lack thereof. Material of which she's unaware or with which she's uncomfortable might get ignored entirely. How does that even make sense?

Some parents are academically well-prepared to teach and are natural teachers (you, perhaps). Some subjects are best learned in a tutorial situation (spelling). But there are many abuses of homeschooling, and evaluating any situation requires looking not just at its successes but at its failures---and at the mediocrity that lies between those two extremes.

And consider what the community response would be if a school hired high school dropouts, or well-meaning people with one year of Community College, as teachers.

Judges and Education
Recently a judge ruled that children should not be homeschooled because they needed an "alternate exposure" to things like Christianity that were a part of a homeschool classes. Why did they need an alternate exposure? Because Christianity is PC wrong. The students shouldn't be forced to study anything about it, as is NOT done in public schools, and should be introduced to non-Christian activities such as Muslem praying and free sex.

Germany has banned all schooling EXCEPT the public school system to eliminate the parents' right to decide how their children are educated, just like Russia did. It also eliminates religion since they are teaching that religion is a myth.

I would prefer that my children learned about God than learned about free sex, homosexuality, and Islam.

Dave, Latin is not too esotoric
or difficult for the young minds of the students, but for the minds of the teachers.

My dad had a classical education (via a Church boarding school) and was taught both Greek and Latin, starting before high school.

lilly
If some states have no record keeping or testing requirements, perhaps you should work to help them get standards instead of insisting all homeschooling should be stopped.

Second, it does NOT take a teacher's certificate to teach a child. That is the one BIG thing I have a problem with our educational system. Too many teachers have a certificate on how to lay out material for the kids but know absolutely nothing about what they are to teach.

Third, if you homeschool and don't know some subject, you can easily get programs to teach it anyway. The programs are much better than the ones the teachers (who don't know their subjects) use.

Next time talk about something you know about instead of something you know nothing about.

Lone rules
Duobletalker???? You are either very ignorant of facts or blinded by your far left agenda. The federal money spent on these students is the same no matter where they attend school.

The amount of federal money that is sent to public schools is by the head count. When these student return to public schools, the federal money sent to their previous charter school will follow them to the public school. In other words, the federal money for the charter school for these students will be spent at the public school. So either wise up or take off your leftist blinders.

Public Indoctrination
I have been seeing and saying this for two decades. The public education system, along with higher education in America is the antithesis to education--it's main goal is not education but indoctrination of young minds.

Proof is the election of Obama. In his first 100 days, he has already achieved what it took Carter 4 years to achieve--the worst president ever. But he continues to get good pole numbers. That alone proves just how ignorant our population has become. Nonsense and denial fill the minds of the public educated populace.

America is in deep trouble, we have already been put on our knees, time is running out.

this is not hypocritical
"What's amazing, too, is how hypocritical it is for Congress to make this decision. The Heritage Foundation's report also conveys that 44 percent of current United States senators and 36 percent of current members of the U.S. House of Representatives have "at one time sent their children to private schools." While the foundation found that 11 percent of American students attend private schools, 20 percent of the members of the 111th Congress attended private high schools. And they want to remove the voucher option for private school education?"

Unless, Norris believes these Congressmen
are using vouchers for their children's
private schooling, which to the best of my
knowledge they aren't.

reply to: lib lilly
re:
But are you aware that some states have NO educational background requirement for the homeschooling parent, NO record-keeping requirement, and NO testing requirement? And that some homeschoolers want no state-imposed curriculum? Put all this together: it is legally possible in the United States to have a mother who dropped out of school in 8th grade teaching her senior high school sons and daughters anything that occurs to her and doing no evaulation 9sic) or record-keeping to establish progress or the lack thereof. Material of which she's unaware or with which she's uncomfortable might get ignored entirely. How does that even make sense?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Charge that windmill! Kill that phantom problem!

See my earlier stats on the demonstrable success of cost-efficient homeschool vs. the CLEAR failures of public education... boy, how homeschoolers suffer from a lack of state-imposed PC curricula! Heaven forbid-- truly educated, they might even question how guvment also squanders much of the rest of their tax dollars!

about teachers' certificates
[As perspective-- I teach business and economics at a community college following a career in banking.]

Teaching certificates and "ëducation" degrees (pardon the oxymoron) are too often a farce. Check out the GRE scores of your education majors-- the best and the brightest are elsewhere... those who can, do... those who cannot, teach

Education dept. curricula involve a bunch of PC mumbo jumbo instead of science, English, real math, etc. Courses such as "classroom discipline" and "blackboard management" hardly lead to good pedagogy.

The NEA is all about higher salaries, job security and benefits... and a PC, anti-tradition agenda. It is NO focus on eliminating incompetents; in fact, it seeks to protect them.

Your against "learning about"?
"I would prefer that my children learned about God than learned about free sex, homosexuality, and Islam."

I don't know what it would mean to "learn about"
free sex, but I think almost everyone wants their
child to learn about homosexuality and Islam
this does not mean they want them to learn
either,but "learning about" them would be good.

Now how one learns about them seems to me to
be more contentious. Maybe, that's just me.

Response to Writ'r-MOM
School choice exists for everyone because anyone with the will can pay for private school. One of my colleague's secretaries, a single mother, lives with her parents, works and night job, and has borrowed modestly to send her two daughters to Catholic school. It can be done.

The voucher system is an invitation to the government: since public funds are being used subsidize education, the public can have a say on how that education is performed. This is the exact reason public schools are inadequate: they receive public funds making them subject to the political process. The political process leads to compromises, and compromises are the last thing caring parents want in an education curriculum.

You state: "Each and every parent should have the option of taking a voucher worth the amount of the tax money that is paid into the public school program, and using it to send their child to the school of their choosing . . ."

What about those without children? Can they get a voucher too as their tax funds are being used for something they don't even use?

Re: everyonesfacts
You are comparing apples to oranges. Wearing school uniforms in no way compares to a "one size fits all system" that teaches at the lowest levels and hinders the education of students that could and should excel!

Ron
First there is no one size fits all system in
the U.S.

We have at least 51 public systems and then
some.

I am not sure what "teaching at the lowest
levels" means. When compared public and
private systems come away with similar results
according to the best source we have the last
NCES reports on the subject when apples are
compared to apples (students with same econ.
background). Oh, and they do better than
Christian, non-Catholic, schools! fwiw.

reply to post on education laws

Joel-De Oppresso Liber:
"Home schooling is the ideal, but for those that cannot have a parent at home; we need a suitable free market, religious, government free option. Businesses, churches and charities could create and run great schools."

Doesn't this already exist?

"The government should NEVER be involved in schools. Why is it my responsibility to pay for children to be indoctrinated?"

Because each state has chosen this.
One can reverse by taking out the law or
Amending the Const. of any state that makes
it so.

"The DMV is about as neutral an office as the government has. Do you find it to be efficient?"

Yes, in MA. I have thought they were understaffed.

"Name one thing government does well?"

Delivering mail, public health, parks, roads,
military, etc.

"I will gladly educate my own children, and am more than happy to donate to my church and local charities to contribute to the education of other children. Just not in the government indoctrination camps!"

See how to change this above

"For the moment we are allowed by our overlords to homeschool, or private school our children. I doubt we will be permitted that liberty for very much longer."

Wanna bet! Again these same "overlords" choose
private education more often than average
citizens so logic would have . . .

"Regardless, my property taxes remain the same whether I have a child or not, and whether my children attend the govt school or not. By what authority does the govt compel me to pay for a service that I do not use, and find morally repulsive?"

Same authority that allows them to pass legislation for parks, roads, public health,
etc.


note the errors here
re:
everyonesfacts
Location: MA
Reply # 3
Date: Apr 28, 2009 - 11:32 AM EST

Your (sic) against "learning about"?
"I would prefer that my children learned about God than learned about free sex, homosexuality, and Islam."

I don't know what it would mean to "learn about" free sex, but I think almost everyone wants their (sic) child to learn about homosexuality and Islam this does not mean they (sic) want them to learn either, but "learning about" them would be good.

Now how one learns about them seems to me to
be more contentious. Maybe, that's just me (sic).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"everyonesfacts" is predictably back to proffer a defense of public education. The sad part is that even in a short comment there are multiple errors-- and I believe that s/he teaches! [Yes, I know-- we are supposed to excuse typos and spelling errors in blog posts, but simple grammar from an educator?!]

comma faults? subject/verb correlation?

I am reminded of the school motto of Faber College in "Änimal House"-- Knowledge Is Good

Re: One size system
everyonesfacts

You are probably right when considering "national". I should have clarified "State wide".
Also, I won't participate in Christian, non-Catholic bashing!

oracle one - 50% = F
Yes - your should be you are or you're.
their should be their.
they could be his
me should be me.

And yes it is a post - it is a problem when
one cannot understand the point the poster was
making this was not the case in my post.


oracle one - 50% = F
Yes - your should be you are or you're.
their should be their.
they could be his
me should be me.

And yes it is a post - it is a problem when
one cannot understand the point the poster was
making this was not the case in my post.


everyonesfacts
You really believe government has been effective with: mail, roads, and public health and the DMV??. Wow. So do you believe the same about retirement (SS) and budgeting (Congress)and public education???. We must live on different planets.

Schooling and abilities
Dear Mr. Norris !
Dear participants of the discussion !
I generally agree twith you comments.
However, not all public schools are bad; you can inquire about them on
http://www.greatschools.net/ , mostly by evaluating the student composition, not the teacher composition of the school, or the funding of the school.
Somehow you all start with so-called “blank slate” assumption, i.e. with the assumption that it does not matter, who is the student, what are his or her abilities; that only schooling matters. Unfortunately, it is not so.

Charles Murray (of “The Bell Curve” fame) in his recent short book “Real Education” emphasizes that we do not live in Lake Woebegon (of Prairie Home Companion radio show), where “all children are above average”. Unfortunately, exactly 50% of kids are below average. I have observed this on kids, including the kids of people, whom I love and consider close friends of myself. Clarification: when I said “Unfortunately, exactly 50% of kids are below average,” I meant below average with respect to abilities, or to be even more precise, innate abilities and qualities.
Respectfully, Florida resident.

lilly frets
"But are you aware that some states have NO educational background requirement for the homeschooling parent, NO record-keeping requirement, and NO testing requirement? And that some homeschoolers want no state-imposed curriculum?"
________________________________________________


I think that's the point of homeschooling, lil.

US Spends more per student

CBS News July 7, 2008
The United States ranks 18th. We must be doing something right the US wasn't last like I expected.
------------------------------------------------
UNICEF rankings of educational systems in the world's richest countries, indicating the percentage of 14 and 15 year olds scoring below a minimum level in literacy, math and science.
1. South Korea 1.4 percent
2. Japan 2.2
3. Finland 4.4
4. Canada 5
5. Australia 6.2
6. Austria 8.2
7. Britain 9.4
8. Ireland 10.2
9. Sweden 10.8
10. Czech Republic 12.2
- (tie) New Zealand 12.2
12. France 12.6
13. Switzerland 13
14. Belgium 14
- (tie) Iceland 14
16. Hungary 14.2
- (tie) Norway 14.2
18. United States 16.2
19. Germany 17
- (tie) Denmark 17
21. Spain 18.6
22. Italy 20.2
23. Greece 23.2
24. Portugal 23.6

America spends more per student than the top four countries combined.

Liberals controlled Education 50 years

Liberals have controlled Education for over 50 years, yet Barack Obama states that:

“I don’t want to send another generation of American children to failing schools. I don’t want that future for my daughters. I don’t want that future for your sons. I do not want that future for America.”
- Barack Obama
Jefferson-Jackson Dinner, Des Moines, Iowa
November 10, 2007

Liberals who created these 'Failing Schools', have elected the most radical and Liberal POTUS in history, to correct failed Liberal Schools - huh? - what?

Liberal insanity is like a fireman turned arsonist, who starts the fire and then wants to be the one in charge of putting out the fire.

Liberal behavior would be funny, if it wasn't destroying America.

Per Cent of GDP on Education

Netherlands 5.3% of GDP (2005) for Education, GDP = $687.5 billion (2008 est.)

United States 5.3% of GDP (2005) for Education, GDP = $14.58 trillion (2008 est.)

Top Ranked Countries in Literacy
================================
South Korea 4.6% of GDP (2004) for Education, GDP = $1.312 trillion (2008 est.)

Japan 3.5% of GDP (2005) for Education, GDP = $4.487 trillion (2008 est.)

Finland 6.4% of GDP (2005) for Education, GDP = $201.2 billion (2008 est.)

Canada 5.2% of GDP (2002) for Education, GDP = $1.336 trillion (2008 est.)

Austrailia 4.5% of GDP (2005) for Education, GDP = $824.9 billion (2008 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook /index.html

Do I?

everyonesfacts
You really believe government has been effective with: mail, roads, and public health and the DMV??

The DMV is state by state.
Ours in MA was not effective until recently,
but when I go there recently I don't see
much I could cut under our laws. Much of the
work is done electronically and through the
mail.

The others, yes.
I worked in shipping. UPS, FedEx, and what
used to be Airborne would not even attempt
to do what the USPS does.
Are they effective - imo, yes. I put a bill
or a letter in the mail it gets there for under
50 cents.

Our federal road system has been the envy of
the world until 1980. Since then it has been
underfunded imo.

Public health - yes, again only one major
outbreak in my lifetime. Could more have been
done with AIDS? Yes.


"Wow. So do you believe the same about retirement (SS)"

Without addressing the constitutionality of it.
I think for much of its life, yes. If the age
gets lifted as I think it should to 70 it would
be fine - do I think that is going to happen?
No.

"and budgeting (Congress)"

Did I say anything about this?
No, I have been a deficit hawk all my life.
Neither party has done a good job on it.

"and public education???."

As studies have shown public and private are
both sorely lagging what other countries do.
So no I do not think public education has done
a good job. Equally bad has been private education.

"We must live on different planets."

Probably not. I'm earthbound. You?

reply to : Retired Geek
No fair printing inconvenient facts/truths!

You will discomfit "everyonesfacts" and "lilly" who do not want to be bothered by no dirty stinkin' facts!

Next thing you know, you will be asking for more measured teacher accountability! For more teacher competency testing... but how dare we test those who purport to test our children?!

Funny thing, for decades in banking I got tested and evaluated routinely... pilots get tested... many occupations do.

Yet teacher "certifications" sometimes prevent a History major from a quality program from teaching history in favor of an "education" major. And the NEA bitterly resists competency testing for those who would be test givers. Hmmm.

the left, teacher's unions,
A poster writes:
"Forgot the issue of teacher's unions
This was a good article but it did not mention or deal with one of the root causes of the left's rejection of school choice;"

The left is being used broadly here because
we can say that the homeschooling movement
was largely practiced more among the left in
the 1970s and early 1980s than the right.
(Many still do today)
This of course is an aspect of school choice
maybe not the one the writer is addressing.

"teacher's unions. The teachers unions are clearly looking to solidify and otherwise perpetuate their control over the educational system "

The NEA certainly has tried this as is their
wont. Even though I disagree. The AFT less
so.

"that provides them with ever increasing amounts of pay, fewer students, and no accountability for results."

I think ever increasing pay is more talked
about than practiced, fewer students has been
a trend at early grades (1-3) based on research
supporting the same, and more accountability -
at least more than in the history of 20th C.
public education has also been a trend more or
less nation wide.

Chuck-You're right.
OK, you are paying TWO times so yes, you are right when you say you are paying twice. I should have chosen my words better. Most parents do not pay double.

BUT I think when most parents make this argument they mean "I am paying for my child's public education, so I should be entitled to have control over how, when, and where they are educated in the public sector. I should get a voucher that covers the dollar amount of the services I am receiving."

I don't. I think they can at best only hope to get either in tax credits or a tax cut for the amount they were actually paying in taxes that go directly to public education.

Many are often only paying a PORTION in taxes for the cost if services they receive in the public schools. What they want is the state per pupil taxpayer funded expenditure to go to any private school they like even if they paid no where near it in taxes.

People need to stop depending on tax dollars for the education of their children. That is the root issue I was trying to address.

To Retired Geek
Dear Sir!
You presented very interesting data on "Per Cent of GDP on Education" for differernt countries. However, you did not mention any differences in the innate abilities of the population of these countries.
It is like comparing the profitabiity of silver mine with the profitability of coal mine. The intrinsic quality of the ore is different.
I belive (after reading books by Ch. Murray, Richard Lynn and others, articles by Steve Sailer and others) that the IQ (intelegence) of the populations is important, while the school system is mostly the consequence of the IQ level of students.
To say it differently, Japaneese and Souths Korean students, Finnish students, British (of Anglo-Saxon decent) students perform pretty well, even in supposedly "broken" american education system, public or privite.
Sincerely yours, Florida resident.

Careful with those homeschooling stats
Remember that the homeschooling demographic is not as varied as the public school population.

Public schools have to deal with the children of apathetic parents, addicts, illiterates, criminals, welfare dependents, foster children, illegal immigrants who don't speak English, etc. The averages with this bunch can really drop the averages in the public system.

Parental involvement and motivation are huge factors in student performance, and it's hard to find a parent who chose homeschooling who is not very motivated. In the public schools it's a mixed bag and that can really take its toll on the averages.

Keep it in mind when you read the stats.

To Homeschool Mom, AZ
Esteemed Homeschool Mom !
Your statement is that
"People need to stop depending on tax dollars for the education of their children. That is the root issue I was trying to address."

I actually believe that the root issue is how smart is the student (other term for that is his or her IQ). It is not that I defend the indoctrination in public schools, which I had a chance to observe with my own kids. By the way, we were lucky: indocrtination was there, but it was (in our schools) rather tolerable.
Respecrfully, Florida resident.

reply to retired geek and oracle 1
Oracle 1

I'm not sure I understood retired geek's
facts when one considers the populations
being educated and the standard of living
in each country.

The U.S., we can argue, has the most difficult
population to educate if non-native speakers
is the prime metric. Or non-native speakers
of non-college educated parents which is better. The U.S has by far more 1st and 2nd
generation immigrants this will cost more.
Thus, imo the U.S. can either change who
they educate or spend more as a % of GDP which
I think is the best ways to compare spending
between countries - fwiw we are 57th!

"Next thing you know, you will be asking for more measured teacher accountability!"

This is what has been happening in the last
part of the last 50 years of what geek has
written about.

"For more teacher competency testing..."

This has been happening too.

"but how dare we test those who purport to test our children?!"

In most, but not all states this is de rigeur.

"Funny thing, for decades in banking I got tested and evaluated routinely... pilots get tested... many occupations do."

Teachers are routinely evaluated.
Not routinely tested, but in most states have
to prove they are continuing to be educated -
continuing education units (CEUs) or
professional development points (PDPs).


"Yet teacher "certifications" sometimes prevent a History major from a quality program from teaching history in favor of an "education" major."

Weren't you just arguing for more qualifications?

"And the NEA bitterly resists competency testing for those who would be test givers."

No. An inconvenient fact for you. They
support it. So does the AFT. They do not
support competency tests for test givers (those
who became teachers before such tests were
used).


On Liberal control (post continued)
I reject out of hand the belief that education
on ALL (?) levels is run by Libs for ANY of
the 50 years. Does that include Reagan as
President or Governor same for Bush II?

Now in MA - the #1 scoring state in the country
this is not even true since we have had
moderate Repub govs.


"Liberals who created these 'Failing Schools', have elected the most radical and Liberal POTUS in history, to correct failed Liberal Schools - huh? - what?"

Umm, do you really think this was a major
reasons for people voting for Obama? I don't.
Please prove.

Horace Mann was a Liberal by the standards of
his day - yes.


Florida resident et al

IQ is NOT as important as one might think - in my opinion.

Several studies have proved that there is an almost equal distribution of high IQ's and low IQ's in every race.

I taught advanced programming techniques for several years and encountered many interesting experiences.

I once taught a class of 10, all with Masters degrees in computer science. The class was about object oriented techniques and required the student to think in a high level of abstraction.

Interestingly, exactly half of the class (5) excelled and the other half were simply confused by the material.

Space is limited on these comments, so I will present one other observation I have encountered.

While teaching overseas, the attitude of the students towards me the teacher, was very different from most classes I taught in America - NOTE: all of my teaching involved college or university graduates.

Students in Egypt, for example, rose when I entered the room and did not sit down until I did, they took copious notes and focused on every word.

Students in America (not all) slept, read newspapers and were generally inattentive.

I have only observed the results and have no answer for the reasons.

The middle group of IQ's - those between above average and below average - must be attentive and take notes.

The ability to apply information, is missing in many high IQ people and is actually more prevalent in the middle group - in my opinion.

In my experience, the best managers come from the middle group, generally speaking.

To Retired Geek
Thank you, Sir, for sharing your experience.
I do not have opinion about people who become, citing you, "the best managers come from the middle group".
Your statement "Several studies have proved that there is an almost equal distribution of high IQ's and low IQ's in every race" is incorrect.
Yes, one can definitely state that "there are persons with high IQ's and low IQ's in every race". However, the ***distributions*** are not the same; the medians of IQ, or if you want, the averages of IQ, are statitsticslly reliably different. Moreover, the standard deviations are somewhat smaller for women, than for men; wsomewhat smaller for East Asians, than for the rest of the world. So, distibutions ***are*** different.
Respectfully, Florida resident.

Paying for Education
The best way to solve our education problem is to stop funding education with taxes. You should have a choice on how to educate your children and pay for the cost out of your own pocket. This would make our schools the best in the world eventually. Competition for students will raise the quality of education. And for the naysayers who will refute this I will agree that there will be some failures but the public is failing now. But I would wager that the level of failures with this approach would be significantly less than the current failure rate of public schools. This works for home school and private schools and gives parents the choice. If public schools had to compete for students and money like this they would change and improve and do what the parents want them to do.

Florida resident et al

Let me clarify, high IQ's e.g. 140 and above, seem to be equal in all races based on percentage - same with those below average.

If there is differences it is in the middle group.

I read the 'Bell Curve' a few years ago and I personally disagree with their findings after reading several other reports.

My contention is that study habits and attention in class - is most important for the middle group than any other group.

Mt theory is, that the middle group will do better at home schooling, than Public schools, simply because there is less distraction and parents have more control than Public School teachers.

I will post to you a quote from Dr Sowell, after this one, I would like your comments on his quote.

I personally do NOT buy into the theory that some races are smarter than others.

I have worked with many nigh IQ people in my time from all races.

on the public gravy train
re:
"I think ever increasing pay is more talked
about than practiced"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Public school teacher compensation has increased VERY nicely, especially in terms of real total compensation (benefits, vacation, job security, retirement). They OWN the politicians! Jimmy Carter foisted the Dept. Of Education upon us as payback. Funny how the country got along very well for 200 years without such a boondoggle.

Show me a senator or governor or mayor who does not grovel to teacher unions, ALWAYS promising pay raises for teachers. There are 2 MILLION of them, and their unions wield a mighty cudgel.

Here is an article which starts to speak to the widening gap between private employment compensation and that of state and local guvment workers-- now 40% and rising. A key part of that is due to teacher compensation:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensa tion_N.htm

See also the reference sources at my 7:27 post.

Florida resident et al


Quote from Dr Sowell several years ago

"One of the schools I researched years ago that impressed me the most -- in fact, moved me to the verge of tears -- was a ghetto school in a run-down building, located in a neighborhood that caused a friend to say that I was "brave" -- he probably meant foolhardy -- to park a car on the street there.

The children in that school scored above the national average on tests. In their classrooms, they spoke the King's English, behaved like little ladies and gentlemen, and made thoughtful answers to the questions they were asked. Yet these kids came from poor homes, often broken homes, and many were on welfare.

You can't buy that quality of education for any amount of money.

It has to be created by people who have their priorities straight. Don't tell me it can't be done when I have seen it done with my own eyes."

Dr Thomas Sowell

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell092503.asp

more PC drivel from everyonesfacts
re:
"Teachers are routinely evaluated.
Not routinely tested, but in most states have
to prove they are continuing to be educated -
continuing education units (CEUs) or
professional development points (PDPs)."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have to go teach a night class at the community college... just have time here to note that we get this constant litany of apologia from the public school teachers, but RESULTS keep disappointing... compared to other countries, our system underwhelms and has declined for years.

To say that there is no lib/PC bias in our public school system is laughable!

Why I posted Facts on GDP

I have NO ulterior motive.

Facts are NOT impressed with credentials or bias.

Bias is NOT applied to facts until one applies their perspective.

Perspective is 'Truth' to most Humans

'Truth' is objective NOT subjective, yet few humans think that.

An example, let us say the Objective actual fact is, that it is windy, raining and cold outside.

If someone is having a massive Tea Party that will be held outdoors, they might say it was a 'Horrible Day for Weather'.

If someone is 'Against' Tea Parties, they might say it was a 'Great Day for Weather'.

If one is a 'Farmer', they might say the 'Rain was Great', but it was too windy.

If one owned a 'Wind Turbine Farm', they might say the 'Wind was Great' and made them some money.

Four or more different 'Opinion Pieces' and their derivatives, could be made from one simple fact - it is/was windy, raining and cold outside.

everyonesfacts

Can you or would you post a link on a study that shows the United States ranks 57th on percentage of GDP for education?

That does NOT 'Jibe' with my research at all.

My Abstraction the Reason for Education

Many centuries ago, mankind realized that little nature gives one is suited for survival and must be transformed to meet their needs and the needs of those they are responsible for i.e. family.

Early mankind realized that they must be pro-active and seek to enhance skills, knowledge and implements to ensure the survival and well being of self and family.

The earliest Schools were started out of necessity for survival.

This 'survival' school had teachers (parents) students (children) a curriculum and a graduation.

Curriculum consisted of Courses on: shelter, Clothing, fire, hunting, fishing, planting and harvesting, gathering, defense, finding ones way, language etc.

Tradition and history were so important, that while resting around the fire at night the teachers recited over and over to their students the necessity of learning from the past and not repeating failure.

Life and death was determined by the skill of the teacher and the hard work and determination of the student.

Survival School was tough and grades were easily measured, 'Graduates' lived and prospered, non-graduates died.

Modern education is NO longer about survival, rather it is about 'Social Engineering'.

Controlling the future -
This isn't new - by any stretch. The model for "public education" was Socialist at it's inception in the 1880's. Hungarian, I believe, and had three objectives: good citizens, good soldiers, intelligent leaders.
We adopted the first -
- had the second -
- ignored the last.

The State has controlled education to greater extent as time passes - and we've been PROUD of it! It isn't the force-fed rote of public schools that has made our educational strength of the past, it's the individual desire - NURTURED, not forced.
How much has the current model destroyed? We'll never really know, but our "grades", compared to the rest of the world, should tell something.

Limited
Really, public schooling is excruciatingly limited.
It focuses on academia almost exclusively, leaving trades as less than an after-thought. Of course, books and classrooms are simple provisions - albeit more and more expensive.

Schools (especially "public") should include trades as equal to academics and "steer" students along the path of THEIR choice - then, any 'homework' will be welcome - and most likely self-generated. Quit trying to restrict and control the setting to conform to a single, measurable model - that isn't important to anyone other than a bureaucrat who wants to justify their position.

One of the reasons for success in home-schools is exposure: the students have greater opportunity to see LIFE as they learn, rather than being enclosed in a sterile environment with little thought but escape - yes, ESCAPE! Unless you are one of the minority who enjoy academia and wish to continue with it, your thoughts are more focused on escape. Even many of your college-bound have that focus - and are ill-prepared because of it.

We need ditch-diggers and service techs every bit as much as we'll need teachers, or physicists, or mathematicians. Education - by whatever means - needs to accept that and help students pursue their choices.



To Retired Geek
Dear Sir! I have read the article by Thomas Sowell, after you pointed it to me. So what? It does not prove anything. Reminds KIPP program, which is the ***selection*** of somewhat higher-IQ kids, not taking random kids and educating them. See http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=4844&sec_ id=4844 ;or: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIPP From there:
"Some observers, such as the authors of "…," say that KIPP's admission process self-screens for students who are both motivated and compliant, from similarly motivated and compliant -- and supportive -- families. Parents must commit to a required level of involvement, which rules out badly dysfunctional families. Reports of KIPP's discipline policy, which involves shunning the miscreant student, and other KIPP policies such as teaching students how to "walk briskly down the hall" (according to one admiring description of KIPP practices), might further tend to discourage willful, defiant or simply independent-minded students from applying.
In other words, KIPP is good ***as a selection tool*** for relatively bright kids; let me (Florida resident) repeat, ***good*** for bright kids. It is not good as an improvement tool for those, who have low IQ in the first place. Therefore it can not (and has not been) adopted for the mass population.
See also http://johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Straggler/073.html
I am greatly respectful of your personal experience, dear Sir. F.r.

The Institution
Eventually, Public Institutions (like private corporations, sometimes) become so large and expansive (and expensive) they lose touch with their reason for being and their very existence becomes their reason and the focus of their efforts - sometimes to the exclusion of their purpose.
The large Public Institution feels itself the most important at budget time. This is borne out by the things they are willing to sacrifice, should the public resist giving them their due. The first things to ever be sacrificed are almost exclusively the things most needed to justify the Institution: teachers, policemen, firemen, and DPW workers, to start the list.
Notice that these are also the only things the public are willing to "save". All of the Institutions realize, deep down, that the abundance of administrators, directors, managers, and superintendents are nowhere near as important to the public and the duties at hand, so they hold them hostage -
-and the public backs down.
Why would we entrust our children to an Institution whose primary focus is itself and the primary function of students is their value in State Aid?

Yep -
The Heritage Foundation seems to have it: some of us ARE increasingly dissatisfied

lilly-certification/education level
TORONTO, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - Oct. 4, 2007) - Home schooling appears to improve the academic performance of children from families with low levels of education, according to a report on home schooling released today by independent research organization The Fraser Institute.

"The evidence is particularly interesting for students who traditionally fall through the cracks in the public system," said Claudia Hepburn, co-author of Home Schooling: From the Extreme to the Mainstream, 2nd edition and Director of Education Policy with The Fraser Institute.

"Poorly educated parents who choose to teach their children at home produce better academic results for their children than public schools do. One study we reviewed found that students taught at home by mothers who never finished high school scored a full 55 percentage points higher than public school students from families with comparable education levels."

The peer-reviewed report, co-written with Patrick Basham and John Merrifield, builds on a 2001 study with new research and data. It examines the educational phenomenon of home schooling in Canada and the United States, its regulation, history, growth, and the characteristics of practitioners, before reviewing the findings on the academic and social effects of home schooling. The full report is available at http://www.fraserinstitute.org.

Abolish U.S. Department of Education
It is my contention that as part of the Conservative Platform in all future elections that we have as Plank #1 the complete and absolute abolishment of the U.S. Department of Education, and all Public Laws Established Regarding education since the mid-1960's when LBJ started the Socialist Take Over Of Public Education, which heretofore was a Local and State Affair. Period. This is where public education control was intended and did, in fact, operate for over 200 years before federal intervention into local affairs.

In 1966, we were number three in the world for educational outcomes from public schools. Today, we are at #28, trailing behind many third world countries. Was this an accident or was it a plan? Either way, it does not matter. The result is that we have an ignorant and dumbed down, brainwashed populace. Look at the last election and the level of literacy a vast majority of Obama voters had, and have.

It is not the ignorant public's fault that they have been dumbed down and brainwashed. It has been carried out by the public education system being dictated from Washington DC from the U.S. Department of Education, which is controlled and run by National Teacher Unions.

Jimmy Carter created the U.S. Department of Education in 1978 as a campaign promise to teacher unions who supported Jimmy Carter and lead his Grassroots Campaign in 1976. The National Teacher unions behind the U.S. Department of Education have single-handedly dumbed down and brainwashed every generation since the mid-1960's when LBJ interfered with local education. The Socialist agenda that we now have has been in play for over 50 years, and the Obama Administration is putting the last nail in the Coffin of This Republic if we allow it to continue. Under the Obama Education Plan, the US government now has absolute and complete control of public education, ending all state and local control.

Very good article
Education (like healthcare and a paycheck) is NOT a "right"; it is a service that SHOULD be settled between parties in the free market.

The best thing would be to actually BAN GOVT from educating children.

Innovation in the HS community 1 of 3
Eight Approaches/Methods of Homeschooling

Most homeschoolers use a combination of these approaches.

===Traditional School Approach ===

Typically uses prepackaged curriculum with a Scope and Sequence educational philosophy. Their daily and yearly schedules usually follow the 6 hour days of institutional settings and a 180 day school year with the summer off. Grading systems like those used in traditional school settings are the norm and aged grades mimic schools. Textbooks and workbooks are their primary texts. Fill in the blank and multiple choice are characteristic of this crowd. Children are generally taught the same information around the same age and proceed along the same path, although some may do so faster or slower. Think institutional school.


=== Unschooling Approaches A and B===
This is a broad term that applies to two distinct groups.

Group A

Generally believes children are wired for learning, and their job as teachers is to avoid interfering with the learning process. Their job is also to provide access to learning (books, lab equipment, etc.) guided by the child’s interests. They do not necessarily think children need to be “taught” outside of answering questions and teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic. Think Thomas Edison.

Group B

Designs every learning experience to answer the question, “When am I going to use this in real life?” by actually using almost exclusively real life, hands on, applied situations and projects. Only the real world here. They tend to be systematic and adult directed but are very careful to take additional time to follow a child’s interests some too.


Innovation in the HS community 2of 3

===Unit Study Approach ===

Typically these people integrate studies based on an era, historical event, person, character trait, technological development, or historical person. For example, if the Depression is the core of the unit study math, literature, science, history, economics, and writing will hinge on different elements of the Great Depression. This gives the student multidimensional understanding. Each child is given different assignments based on ability, but all study the same core theme.


===Living Books Approach ===
The best literature and writings on each subject are used. Think of it this way, instead of reading from a distilled over simplified textbook on, say, the Civil War, these teachers have their students read several of the books about the Civil War that an author of a textbook would read preparing to write the textbook. Now, think of doing that for science, history, economics, literature, art, etc. This crowd is also known for nature studies “in the field.” They typically use narration by the child of what he/she just learned to increase a child's attention span.


===Principle Approach ===

1. Research the topic by looking up terms in all applicable reference books including the one that is the center of their faith or philosophy.
2. Reason through the material looking for the underlying principles.
3. Relate the information you have found through research and reason and apply it to your life.
4. Record your findings in a logical systematic and persuasive format.

Innovation in the HS community 3of 3
===Classical Education===

Classical education has two distinct camps. They can be integrated as much as the teacher prefers. Both have a strong preference for first source materials and use primarily Western Classics (Also called the Western Canon, or the Common Book of the Western World.) Both can include the study of "dead" languages (Hebrew, Classical or Biblical Greek, and Latin) although some are content with good English translations of Classic works.


Groups A

Characterized by the Trivium. The 3 stages have many terms. Stage 1 Grammar (facts) stage 2 Logic (cause and effect) stage 3 Rhetoric (application.) History is studied chronologically. Logic is studied formally, and Science is studied with both experimentation, biographies, and original writings of the greatest minds. Classic works from masters throughout Western Civilization in all Eras are studied. Often History, Geography, Science and Literature are integrated into a more unit study approach.

Group B

Characterized by the Mentor Model and sometimes called a "Statesmen" education. Morals, virtue, and character are emphasized above all. In the early years children are allowed to follow their interests and learn good character and right and wrong while developing a strong work ethic. The middle years are when a teacher begins inspiring students by reading classic works by the best minds on the subjects and entering into apprenticeship situations with masters of certain skills. Finally, in the later years the students are mentored in apprenticeships in entrepreneurial situations for their future leadership roles and professional pursuits. Think Thomas Jefferson.

FL resident-IQ
One of the most outrageously stupid policies adopted in modern public school is assigning classes by age.

Children should be grouped by ability. That should solve the problem. Children with less ability typically need more time, more practice, and more concrete approaches to the basics of an education. That way they are less likely to fall through the cracks.

Children with more ability should also be grouped together so that their potential can be met and no one gets left behind.

Children with average ability should be grouped together so they are not the only ones in the room getting an education at their level and their pace.

My nephew's private school and my daughter's gymnastics classes and piano lessons are designed this way. Every child is getting what they need and the parents are getting their money's worth.

Two of my daughters are 2 year apart, but the younger of them is at the same ability level as the older in math. They are 11 and 13 but both are doing Algebra because they both can.

The older of the two learned to read fluently by her 5th birthday. The younger was not reading fluently until she was 8. We didn't get hung up on IQ, we focused on ability and met their needs individually. That's what kids need.

Reply to Greyhawk
Dear Sir! I agree with you that the Federal Department of Education should be abolished.
I doubt that in this manner all the educatonal problems will be solved.
Charles Murray in his recent short book “Real Education” emphasizes that we do not live in Lake Woebegon (of Prairie Home Companion radio show), where “all children are above average”. Unfortunately, exactly 50% of kids are below average not only with respect to actuial knowledge, but with respect to abilities. I have observed this on kids, including the kids of people, whom I love and consider close friends of myself.
Respectfully, Florida resident.

Homeschool Mom AZ

Great post @ 7:00 PM

I agree 100%.

Your other posts were good as well.

Reply to Fla Resident
Abolishing the U.S. Department of education and putting schools back under local government control would insure that the Indoctrination Ends. Also, with local control, the teachers would be required to teach academic subject matter, and not a political agenda, or the teaching of Donning Condoms to children, and other such Liberal and Godless nonsense that currently goes on in public schools as federal mandates.

Also, with local control, schools would become smaller as schools would be located in the communities where the children live.

All educational research proves out that a school grows to a number larger than about 400 students, academics go down, while behavioral and other problems go up. Also, smaller teacher-student rations are needed, especially in the early grades. And, speaking of early grades, Kindergarten and other Pre-School programs should be abolished all together. 4, 5 and 6 year olds are still curious, playful and active little children and should not be forced to particiapate in an environment where their natural and normal activities are stifled. This is especially true for little boys, who lage behind girls by 2 to 3 years in emotional and intellectual development at say, age 6. That is why boys are getting Mis-Labeled as LD, ADD, ADD/HD, Behavior Disordered, Emotional Conflicted, etc. Or, if they do not get the label, then they get the reputations as troublemaker, problem child, etc. And, all too many of these mis-labeled kids get drugged by the so-called experts who mis-label normal little boys who refuse to be cowed down or beaten down to behaving abnormally and unnaturally. Our whole system of education is now turned up side down, and there is absolutely no defense for the current model we are using. Abolishing the U.S. Department of Educaton would put over 200 billion into the hands of state and local governments and we could re-create the greatest public education system in the world.

Homeschool Mom & Ret Geek:

"Children should be grouped by ability"
Perhaps! But those schools asd teachers who have invested the time in the "Co-operative Learning" concept have found great success...



RESCUE OUR CHILDREN!
As a retired public school teacher I am convinced that our only hope is to rescue our children from the public (government) schools and raise a godly generation. Please see "Call to Dunkirk" at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRGZLSVph3A.

Reply to Anne in Pa
In olden days, the small rural communities in Ameerica had the one-room school where all kids went to school together, and these schools were far superior to any of the models we currently use. 8 years was about all the elementary, middle or high school that was needed, and those 8th grade graduates were well-perpared to go to work and be able to learn on the job, or to go to trade schools, or on to university. And, there was hardly any such thing as drop outs, except for kids who dropped out during planting and harvesting, but went back willingly when these chores were done. I recently saw an 8th grade test that students took n 1898, and I dare say that today, most college seniors would have difficulty in answering the questions, and this test was not for a college prep student but was a requirement for all graduates. And, the students not only developed good academic skills, they also had good work ethics, decent moral and family values, and they all, without exception understood civic responsibility and duty to God and country. Those were truly the good old days.

Downsizing Government is the Key!!
We need to start this grassroots campaign now and not only at the federal election level, but also in our towns, counties and states. Liberalism has infiltrated every level of government.

At the national level, as part of our platform, we need to not only tell them to cut spending, we need to demand that they start down-sizing government by abolishing every single agency, department or commission that does nothing but spend money and does nothing else and in fact, only hurt the nation.

A great place to start abolishing departments would be to abolish the U.S. Department of Education. This single department has been the mastermind behind destroying the credibility of the public education system, and under Comrade Obama's plan, it totally abolishes all local and state control in education. This has been the aim of leftists since LBJ when he first began meddling in local education. Education in American was, up until about 40 years ago, a nation where education was considered a local function only. The federal government and even the state government had no say so in public education, except they were to send back to the communites the money to run their schools since the state and federal government were extracting taxes from workers who live in these communities.

Next, abolish the Energy Department. Then, the HEW and all welfare programs. Welfare, again, is a local affair and should be handled at the local level on an as needed basis but never become a way of life for generation after generation. In short, abolish the Entire So-Called Great Society Program that LBJ started.

This is the direction and the only message I have, and short of abolishing all government agencies except those necessary to defend this country from enemies at home or abroad, and to take care of the infrastructure, including protecting and policing borders and ports from foreign invasions.

Florida Teacher Speaks (part 1)
An email I received earlier today:

Letter by a Florida teacher................ A teacher speaks.

This is a subject close to my heart. Do you know that we have adult students at the school where I teach who are not US citizens and who get the PELL grant,
which is a federal grant (no pay back required) plus other federal grants to go to school?

One student from the Dominican Republic told me that she didn't want me to find a job for her after she finished my program,
because she was getting housing from our housing department and she was getting a PELL grant which paid for her total tuition and books, plus money leftover.

She was looking into WAIT which gives students a CREDIT CARD for gas to come to school, and into CARIBE which is a special program (check it out - I did) for immigrants and it pays for child care and all sorts of needs while they go to school or training.
The one student I just mentioned told me she was not going to be a US Citizen because she plans to return to the Dominican
Republic someday and that she 'loves HER country.'

I asked her if she felt guilty taking what the US is giving her and then not even bothering to become a citizen and she told me that it doesn't bother her, because that is what the money is there for!

I asked the CARIBE administration about their program and if you ARE a US Citizen, you don't qualify for their program. And all the while, I am working a full day, my son-in-law works more than 60 hours a week, and everyone in my family works and pays for our education.

Something is wrong here. I am sorry but after hearing they want to sing the National Anthem in Spanish - enough is enough.

Florida Teacher Speaks (part 2)

The one student I just mentioned told me she was not going to be a US Citizen because she plans to return to the Dominican
Republic someday and that she 'loves HER country.'

I asked her if she felt guilty taking what the US is giving her and then not even bothering to become a citizen and she told me that it doesn't bother her, because that is what the money is there for!

I asked the CARIBE administration about their program and if you ARE a US Citizen, you don't qualify for their program. And all the while, I am working a full day, my son-in-law works more than 60 hours a week, and everyone in my family works and pays for our education.

Something is wrong here. I am sorry but after hearing they want to sing the National Anthem in Spanish - enough is enough. Nowhere did they sing it in Italian, Polish, Irish (Celtic), German or any other language because of immigration. It was written by Francis Scott Key and should be sung word for word the way it was written. The news broadcasts even gave the translation -- not even close. Sorry if this offends anyone but this is MY COUNTRY. IF IT IS YOUR COUNTRY SPEAK UP-- please pass this along. I am not against immigration – just come through like everyone else. Get a sponsor; have a place to lay your head; have a job; pay your taxes, live by the rules AND LEARN THE LANGUAGE as all other immigrants have in the past -- and GOD BLESS AMERICA!

PART OF THE PROBLEM?

Think about this: If you don't want to forward this for fear of offending someone, YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM!
It's Time for America to Speak up!
It's Time to hold our Government accountable!
If you agree, pass this along; if you don't agree, delete it


Children & inate ability to know Truth!
Yes, these days, if you send your child off to a public school, it is going to become a fulltime job trying to Un-Indoctrinate them on a daily basis. It is a good idea to teach them at home and then when they go to school, they at least can begin to discern the garbage the techers are promoting.

As a public school teacher for many years, the one thing I found in working with high school students, is that the reason that most students do not care much for history and other courses they are taking is that, at some unconscious level, many of these students knew that much of what they were being taught by incompetent and ignorant teachers was not true, so they just sort of ignored it. That was an internal Lie Detector system they had, but did not realize it. I found that when students were given good information without my or anyother bias, that they became involved in learning. People always make better, more informed decisions when they are provided with good, factual information. Kids have a natural desire to learn and they also have a natural repugnance when presented with lies and propaganda. And, while students may not immediately use what they learn, at least later on in life, they come to their senses and recognize the truth when they see and hear it. That is the joy of being a parent. Our kids many times reject our teachings about morality, good and bad, etc. but later on in life, they finally Get It. But, they would never Get It if they had never been exposed to it.

A truly free market in education
Movements take off when a good idea reaches critical mass.

When the people of a country are made ignorant and indoctrinated and their cognitive faculties deliberately disintegrated, as we are witnessing under this century of Deweyan Progressive education, then that country cannot survive over the long run.

We are almost at the point of no return. Much damage has been done to the minds of the youngest generations. If we do not resolve now to privatize the education system, it will be too late.

Vouchers may be a viable transitional strategy for some areas, but we must set our sights higher. We must be bold and aggressive. We must attain the complete privatization of the education system via the selling off of all public schools into private hands. Home-schoolers must be allowed to continue their way with no harassment from the government. Only the free market can save the education system, the minds of future generations, and the Republic.

A free mind and free market are corollaries.

Never too old.....
The older I get the more I thirst for education and the more education I receive the more I realize that perhaps ignorance is truly bliss. I find great discomfort in the fact that I, an educated person who worked hard to achieve a degree of satisfaction for my acedemic accomplishments am by all standards an idiot.
I think what I should have done is move to a foreign country, denounce my citizenship to the US, re-enter this country illegally, and get free health care, free housing and a free education as well as welfare....ONLY IN AMERICA land of the freaks and home of the naves. The founding fathers would not approve of this!

Survival of the fittest
"Government schools are not the fittest and need the protection of an unconstitutional (illegal) monopoly arrangement in order to survive"--Charles Darwin, or someone else

Greyhawk Reply #99: "In olden days, the

small rural communities in America had the one-room school where all kids went to school together, and these schools were far superior to any of the models we currently use."

Actually, the "cooperative learning" model IS throw back TO the "small rural one-room school where all kids went to school together.




public employees vs all private
employment is apples to oranges comparison.

The AFT spokesperson nails it most public
employees are teachers with college degrees
most private employees have less educational
attainment.


not exactly
More teacher union tripe (AFT-- there is ALWAYS some fatuous excuse), there everyonesfacts... the key differential is benefits period, which are on autopilot for the guvment workers because the cost is forced onward to the taxpayers, whereas in the real world competition checks the unbridled growth. In fact, the article in USA Today makes clear that while benefits are shrinking for private workers, they are GROWING for guvment workers. Hmmm

Second point-- if state and local workers make 40% more all-in with the teachers averaged in, then teachers alone must make quite a lot more than private workers! Actually, there are such stats at sites at my 7:30 post yesterday.

Gotta' go teach 2 college classes, but will touch back with further enlightenments later.

Reply to Anne
Exactly right Anne. That was the point I was making. We do not need any new research, methods, etc. The time-proven models have already been used. We need to return to days of old when things worked.

As a teacher of students who have been labeled as being EC or EBD, ADD, ADD/HD,etc.
and who were in my classroom because their attitudes and behaviors had become so bad, that they were confined to my Self-Contained Classroom, I was able to replicate the One-Room school in a large metro school with 1800 students. My students were the ones who generally were having behaviora problems that resulted in adjudications, and many other interventions. Most of my students were gang connected, hate group connected, cult-connected, using alcohol and other drugs, etc. And, all of them were the kids that regular classroom teachers did not want in their midst. Also, most of these students had been labeled at early ages in elementary school as being ADD, ADD/HD, LD, EC, EBD, or someother nonsensical label, and most had been put on Speed while very young, and over time, they only grew worse. And, most of these students were boys who were never ADD or any of the other labels. These were boys who at age 5, 6, 7, etc. who just kept on being natural and normal little boys and the school system would not tolearate an active, curious, and busy little boy who was following his natural and normal tendencies and fought being "tamed". In the meantime, to Tame the Little Wildman, they gave him drugs, and this began an altering of this kids life that lead them to my classroom, and other so-called Special Ed or later the PC term was Exceptional Ed classrooms, and their education has basically stopped at about the 3rd or 4th grade level.

The good news. In my classroom, where we had 3 simple rules or standards, Respect Yourself, Respect Others, and Respect Resources, these teens were able to have this nightmarish school experience repaired and turned around.

not exactly is right
The first line of the article from USA Today is
this:

"The pay gap between government workers and lower-compensated private employees is growing as public employees enjoy sizable benefit growth even in a distressed economy, federal figures show."

The question then is why aren't public employees compared to private employees as a whole, not just lower compensated ones?

Most people know that wages among the low
paid have been stagnant whereas wages for
better educated workers have increased.

I recommend the report Teachers and the Uncertain American Future for a comparison
between teachers and several chosen professions:
http://www.collegeboard.com/press/releases/110755.html

It has been called the A Nation at Risk of our
time.

Second point
"Second point-- if state and local workers make 40% more all-in with the teachers averaged in, then teachers alone must make quite a lot more than private workers!"

A lot is subjective but my answer to that is:
Yes, and well they should. Since about 30% of
the population has a bachelor's degree:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Educational_attainment.jp g

We can argue, in theory, this should put
teachers in the top 30% of wage earners if
educational attainment is the best measuring
stick.

the underpaid teacher myth


excerpt:
Note that when corrected for hours worked onto a $ per hour basis, teacher salaries are HIGHER than the average white collar or professional worker, and quite competitive with other professionals such as engineers and managers.

In fact, if you were to take out private school teachers (which mix the number lower, see below) the average for public school teachers is even higher. Occupations making more than teachers such as doctors and lawyers require much more education and long-term commitment than the average elementary school teaching role.

By the way, the Education Next article linked above gives us another clue that is useful in understanding teachers salaries: For the vast majority of professions, a government job in that profession pays less than an equivalent private job. People accept the lower government salary for a variety of reasons– sometimes for unique work (e.g. interning with the DA as a young lawyer), sometimes for the higher benefits and more job security, and sometimes just because the jobs require fewer hours and frankly have lower performance expectations than their private equivalent.

The one glaring exception to this public-private salary relationship is with teachers salaries, where the salaries of public school teachers are often as much as 50% higher than their private school equivalents.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1955153
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_nypost_teacher_pay _myth.htm
http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2005/05/the_teacher_s al.html
http://bennett.com/blog/2007/02/the-myth-of-the-underpaid-t eacher/

To Homeschool Mom AZ
Dear Mrs. Homeschool Mom AZ !
God bless your remarkable daughters.
I want to point your attention to the book
"The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do", by Judith R. Harris. It is $1.47(used)+about $4.00 S and H on Amazon-dot-com.
Oversimplifying the contents of this remarkable book, she states the following. Roughly 45% of the influence on the character of a child growing into adult is determined by genes. Roughly 45% is by peer influence (pressure, if you want). And only 10% is due to direct (non-genetic) influence of parents.
She discusses mostly the character, not the "contents" of education / raising children.
You may disagree with the particular numbers given by the author (J.Harris), but I am sure that it will give you a lot of material to think about.
I wish the best to your family. Yours F.r.

oracle
As you well know most teachers do work at home so
this is a bogus comparison.

So much so that the Manhattan Institute report
actually won the highly uncoveted Bunkum Award:

http://epicpolicy.org/think-tank/bunkum-awards/2007

From the award:

In How Much Are Public School Teachers Paid the Manhattan Institute author used hourly earnings data to contend that teachers are better paid than most white-collar professionals. This might have been impressive except, as our reviewer noted "this approach is fundamentally flawed because the [dataset’s] calculation of weeks and hours worked is very different for teachers and other professionals. In fact, the Bureau of Labor Statistics – which publishes the [dataset] – has explicitly warned its users not to use hourly rates of pay in this exact same context."

another article excerpt
(commentary from a source listed just below)

A lot of people ask “What do you have against teachers?” and I answer, “nothing.” I can’t remember complaining about what any employee of a private firm makes. In fact, for employees of private firms, I am happy to root for you to get all you can. Go for it.

But public school teachers are not private employees — they are government workers, just like every other government bureaucrat who gets paid by my taxes that are taken from me against my will. If I pay your salary, and in particular if I pay your salary against my will, you can be sure I am going to demand accountability.

By the way, I send my son to a private junior high. The school is widely acknowledged to do a much better job than any public school in the city. And you know what - my tuition at this school is $2000 per year LESS than the average per pupil spending in Scottsdale public junior high schools. And this school is 100% tuition supported (it is a for profit secular institution so it can’t take contributions) and it turns a profit for the family that owns it.

You know how many principals, assistant principals, administrators, and clerks it has for a 300 person junior high school? Two. The number at a similarly sized public school would be ten times as high. At least.

from the John Stossel column below
Still, we keep hearing that teachers don't make enough money.

But where's the evidence? In a free country when jobs pay too little, people don't apply for them. Yet the opposite is true in many school districts.

This year Boston needed 675 new teachers. They got 2,800 applications -- four for every job. In Los Angeles, it was five for every job. In New York, six. Chicago, 12. Kentucky had 11 applications per job, and Missouri, 19.

Also, remember teachers are paid for just nine months of work. They have the summer off. Some work summer school, others relax.

Some teachers take the time off to relax, go to spas. One teacher I talked to said summers give him time to travel.

"If I'm going to be a good Spanish teacher, wouldn't it behoove me to spend some time in Mexico," he said.

It might, but the summer off means when you calculate teachers' hourly wages, you find teachers make more than chemists, physical therapists, psychologists, registered nurses, aircraft mechanics and firefighters.

Stupid Stossel - not to be trusted
Stossel argues that the average teacher makes $7,000 more than the average worker. So?

The average teacher has at least a bachelor's degree and in many states is required to get a master's degree. Apples to Oranges again Oracle.

The private vs. public school comparison is
telling - answer how many special ed. students
are in the private school and how many are getting services?

Anyways, Stossel once did an hour long program
about public schools called "Stupid in America"
in which the AFT successfully rebutted or
qualified nearly every "fact" or assertion made
by Stossel.

See this chart (left column runs through
program nearly word for word right side rebuts
or qualifies each statement):

http://www.aft.org/presscenter/downloads/sidebyside.pdf

And again, no you can't
"the summer off means when you calculate teachers' hourly wages, you find teachers make more than chemists, physical therapists, psychologists, registered nurses, aircraft mechanics and firefighters."

It means you can for the summer if everyone
did as the anecdotal examples used in the
column do. But I don't. Elementary school
teachers often take several days to set up their class.

The logic is just plain dumb. Most teachers
who have commented on the blogs and sources
you gave write that it is work at night or
on weekends that isn't counted. And these are
your sources!

And teachers do spend time off vacationing!
Shocking!
And many do as the teacher suggested go to
places that will help there instruction.

A good point by Stossel, but only 1/2
good.

"Still, we keep hearing that teachers don't make enough money.
But where's the evidence? In a free country when jobs pay too little, people don't apply for them. Yet the opposite is true in many school districts.
This year Boston needed 675 new teachers. They got 2,800 applications -- four for every job. In Los Angeles, it was five for every job. In New York, six. Chicago, 12. Kentucky had 11 applications per job, and Missouri, 19."

This I think is the case but not every applicant is qualified and the main problem is
not hiring but retaining teachers.

Nearly half of these new hires in these urban
or rural districts will leave in the first 5
years. This is sometimes okay in other fields
but has been found to be detrimental in
city schools.

Yes or No to Private School
As stated by Norris, “The general public is increasingly dissatisfied with public schools, with a rising number opting for private education.”

In most cases, parents who are actively involved in their children’s education want to provide them with the best possible education. Unfortunately, financial circumstances limit a parent’s ability to have the option of sending their children to a private school. This is due in part, because people are already paying and funding public education through their property taxes. People should have the option to not have to fund the public school system through their tax money if they are not utilizing the resource. It is absolutely absurd to have to pay twice for your child’s education. I believe that a reduction in taxes aimed towards the public school system should be made if the household child is in private school, or an extra bonus should be added to the annual income tax. If the government were to approve these proposals, I guarantee that many parents would opt to have their children in private school rather than in public.

On a personal note, I was privileged enough to have the opportunity to attend a private catholic high school. In comparison to public school, I found the educational level and standard much higher and challenging from that of a public school. This is one of the main reasons why my parents decided to transfer me to a private school. Private school truly prepared me academically. My parents continuously say that it was the best money they ever spent.

to Janet
Dear Ms. Janet! Living in Florida, we (my wife and I) felt not so much the property taxes, which are less dependent on the main criterion of real estate agents: 1)Location, 2)Location, 3)Location. We felt the differential of the house prices between locations bound to a ***good*** public school and not so good public school. We had to buy the house for considerably higher price for that reason. Nowadays you can find about schools, public and private, on http://www.greatschools.net/
and go there for the info about **student composition* of the school. When we purchased our house (some years ago), it was real estate agent that helped us to make informed decision. Again, just as in the case of your esteemed parents, we think those were the money best spent.
Respectfully, F.r.

Stop Complaining
"financial circumstances limit a parent’s ability to have the option of sending their children to a private school."

whine, whine, whine,

If it's important to you, suck it up. Public schools give a one size fits all education. if you want something better for your kids, suck it up.

In the early 70's my parents sent my sister and myself to a parochial school at great cost to themselves; I remember bringing two checks for $80.00 each to the principle every month. My father made less then 20,000 a year as a entry grade accountant. That was after putting himself thru night school when he left the Marine Corp.(before the new GI bill) that comes to about 8% pretax income, we ate fried bologna and scraped.

This is just another case of whiny Protestants wanting Uncle Sam to shape the world into something their comfortable with.

Personally, I don't believe the government owes you an education, if you want to be a parent, be prepared to pay for it.

Chuck, young kids need scholarships too
I read the article, but with many parents not earning enough in today's economic climate, parents need scholarships and vouchers to get the kids into the private schools. And from what I have found so far on the internet is deadline after deadline has passed to qualify or apply for help. Man, what kind of help is that if you can see the prizes but can't even enter into the contest to karate-chop and prove that your kid deserves a spot in the private school just like the others? I am a truck driver and because I own trucks and trailers, I don't qualify for food stamps neither medicaid for my kids. We sold martial arts supplies here in Houston for ten years for side money, but we started having too many thieves take our Century stuff, so we closed the stores. Well, they stole stun guns and sometimes four foot swords too! Maybe you could point some of us the way, to maybe, to qualify for some kind of money to help me keep my two of my three girls in private school? Thanks for reading, I know that you are a busy guy.
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