DL: OK. Whoa. Do you know this guy, the governor of Illinois?
JM: He came to my office one time after he was elected governor, at his request. And told me he was going to be a great reformer.
DL: Really? Is that right?
JM: I'm not making it up. That he wanted to do like I had done in the Senate and have all these reforms. I really must have impressed the guy.
DL: Now, John, in your experience, and this is what everybody is saying –- the guy is either stupid or he's nuts. What do you think?
JM: I think a rare combination of both.
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