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Friday, January 02, 2009
W. Thomas Smith, Jr :: Townhall.com Columnist
Israel Must Fight and Win
by W. Thomas Smith, Jr
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Union Army Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman – the man responsible for laying much of my family’s homeland to waste in the final year of the American Civil War – once said, “War is all hell.” He was right: There is no way to bring war to the enemy that does not mirror what we might imagine hell to be.

Nevertheless, there are indeed justifications for this hell-on-earth we call “war.” Though some will deny it, the very security and prosperity we Americans enjoy today is an absolute extension of our own battlefield victories and success in war since 1775. And so the idea of approaching war half-heartedly or without the same willing commitment to destroying the enemy as is his toward us, is both foolish and destructive.

Which is why I tip my hat to Israel in its hard-hitting military offensive against the Iranian-supported terrorist group Hamas in Gaza, and pray for both Israel’s ultimate, decisive victory and a speedy end to the conflict for the sake of the innocents.

But make no mistake, Israel has a right – in fact an obligation to its people – to fight madmen who deliberately target civilian populations (with no military value whatsoever) with rockets, mortars, and suicide bombers.

Former CIA operations officer Clare M. Lopez, vice president of the Intelligence Summit and a professor at the Centre for Counterintelligence and Security Studies, agrees.

In a conversation over the holidays, Lopez says, “This action signals Israel's recovery [since the 2006 war with Hizballah in Lebanon], renewed determination to demonstrate its refusal to give up, and dedication to its own survival.”

Thank God: because Israel must never surrender to forces which would have no qualms about driving every non-Muslim man, woman, and child into the sea. Nor should we. And that means delivering “hell” in its myriad manifestations to the enemy on all asymmetric fronts: including military, political, and media (through the aggressive prosecution of the broader war of ideas).

The enemy is certainly fighting us on all fronts, and he is cleverly forcing Israel and the West onto ground, which – for the good guys – is impossible to attack from or defend.

As Middle East expert Dr. Walid Phares, director of the Future of Terrorism Project at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, points out, “It is clear that the Gaza war – triggered at the request of Tehran in the framework of an ongoing regional strategy pursued by the Khomeinist regime at least since 2005 – is aimed at collapsing both the democratic and peace processes from Afghanistan, Iraq, and Lebanon, to the Palestinian territories."

Every move is calculated and carefully orchestrated.

"There is an ominous, strategic goal behind Iran's ordering Hamas to engage Israel and flare up the Gaza battlefield," Phares tells me. “It is to force Israel into a precarious situation internationally wherein Israel would not be able to launch a preemptive strike against Iran's nuclear sites. For – as the strategists in Tehran project – when Israel is fighting in the Gaza slums, there would be such international pressure that it would seem unthinkable for the Israelis to also strike at Iran."

So do we have the stomach for this kind of war? Israel must: With Jihadist armies like Hamas in Gaza (Israel’s “critical southwestern front” according to Phares) and Hizballah in Lebanon (the “northern front”) surrounding them, and state-sponsors of terrorism like Iran (easily within ballistic missile range) threatening to wipe the Jewish state off the earth, Israel has no choice.

According to Lopez, “Israel draws the especial enmity of the Muslim world for its temerity to even exist as a Jewish state [despite the fact that Jews dwelled in those lands centuries before Mohammed was even born, and that birth was in Mecca, not Palestine nor anywhere else in what would become greater Israel], but also because it is an outpost of Western-style liberal tolerant pluralist democracy. There is no other state like it in the entire Middle East that embodies the values of Athens and Rome, as well as Jerusalem. This, too, is an affront to the objectives of the Islamic Jihad, which scorns individual liberty, tolerance for diversity, religious freedom, gender equality, and above all, equality between Muslims and non-Muslims.”

But then we have the gutless, ill-informed white-flaggers on Capitol Hill who were willing to surrender to the Jihadists in Iraq even when we had them on the ropes a few years back (That crowd on the Hill continues to damn our operations in both Iraq and Afghanistan with faint praise.). And what the Lebanese government, the U.S., and the greater international community have allowed Hizballah to become since the 2006 war – and to a greater degree since that terrorist group’s murderous rampage across Lebanon in May 2008 – is nothing less than a travesty.

Forget the diplomacy of gentlemen: It doesn’t work with Jihadists – celebrating bombers who deliberately target kids on playgrounds and families in restaurants – who only pretend to negotiate and come to terms in order to buy time for Jihad.

“But we continue to dither, and the new American leaders are fooling themselves when they say that vigorous diplomacy can induce the mullahs to retreat,” writes international terrorism expert Michael Ledeen at PajamasMedia. “It won’t happen, any more than the Israelis got the terrorists to retreat from all-out war against the Jews when the Oslo Agreement was signed, or when Rabin shook hands with Arafat. It only delayed the days of reckoning, at the cost of many lives, mostly of innocents, on both sides.”

So, yes, “war is hell,” potentially more hellish today than at any time in history, which is why we must never lose when fighting an enemy who will never quit. Israel and the West has no choice but to fight the terrorists, aggressively, unapologetically, with an absolute commitment to win on every front. And that fight must be on our time-schedule … never the enemy’s.

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About The Author
W. Thomas Smith Jr. is a former U.S. Marine rifle-squad leader and counterterrorism instructor. He is the author of six books, and he has covered war and conflict in the Balkans, on the West Bank, in Iraq, and Lebanon. Visit him online at http://www.uswriter.com.
 
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A Mere Truce Only Prolongs the Hell.
Smith states this well. What fool thinks that a truce now will not be followed by continued war in the future? Israel's crushing victory over her enemys will cure the conflict once and forever. So far, these enemys have not had the capacity to sufficiently provoke her but eventually they will cross that line.

Excellent
Spoken like a true Soldier, Mr. Smith

cant wait for the anti-semites
to come in here and spin yarns(lies) about Israel being illegitimate, being the aggressor, wanting to kill all Muslims, ad-barfeum.

Israel marched its own citizens out of Gaza and rockets were fired from there THE NEXT DAY. Rockets fired into neighborhoods and other civilian areas.

Large swaths of Palestine are nothing more than cultural cesspools at best.

Israel
Good article. What the msm also fails to explain is why Islamists keep getting away with these lies about how Israel is illegitimate. Weren't Abraham and Moses and all the Patriarchs and all the tribes of Israel there thousands of years before Islam existed?

Gaining Liberal Support
If Israel wants to garner liberal support in defense of their homelands they should immediately:

1) Collect all 25,000 of the endangered polar bears and put them in zoos scattered around the country.

2) Open 1,000 abortion clinics.

3) Designate large areas of land for carbon offset use only.

4) Have the entire Israelie population turn gay en masse.

Then should Hamas or Hezbulla attack, that might so enrage the moonbats that they at least issue a stern letter of reprimand.

Jealousy And Israels Enemies
Hate of Israel has little to do with opposing Religious views but of a small nations superior performance. They do not accept that their brothers and sisters will always remain in the stone age with a contribution of only ignorant and jealous suicide bombers.

Thanks Thomas
It's good to read an article from someone with a spine. We have been "informed" and led by people who have had their heads in the sands of naivety.

Holy War is Not Hell
The Jewish Torah tells you exactly how to fight a war. If you do it God's way you are createing heaven not hell. Sherman was wrong to start the scorched earth stuff. The Bible warned against scorched earth policy thousands of years ago. For Israel to win the Palestinians have to win also. Its a fight against the death spirit and we can show them we respect their life more than they do. Holy war is everything you do and every Christian and Jew is an ambasador for Jesus and the Christian way of doing things. The IDF needs to show some faith and some gonads and go in there with boots on the ground like the Bible says. Blowing up houses does nothing if Hamas has already run away to Egypt.

Godspeed Israel
TEHRAN, Iran — Thousands of people Friday demonstrated against Israel's attacks on the Gaza Strip in widespread protests stretching across the Middle East, Asia, Africa and even some scattered protests in Europe.
===========
Yet the eerie silence from the Muslim world concerning the ongoing murder of innocent Christians and others at the hands of radical Muslims is deafening. You are right in what you are doing Israel as defeating the monsters in Hamas is the only way. It would also ultimately end up benefiting the average non-radical Palestinian as well. Thuggish, murderous rats, good riddance to Hamas.

Palestinians teach Genocide to Children1

Using hate-filled textbooks and educational devices [read: indoctrination] which foment perpetual war & killing of innocent Israeli citizens, to make "Martyrs of Allah" of their own children, makes Palestiniansm alone, responsible for their destruction, suffering & loss of life :

Fox News, April 3, 2007:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,263666,00.html

I submit to you the following excerpt:

"A new textbook is teaching Palestinian kids to hate Israel and think of fighting Israelis as a holy Islamic duty, according to an Israeli media monitoring group.

The textbooks, published in December and distributed in the West Bank and Gaza to Palestinian students, deny Israel's existence and teach kids — many as young as 11 — that Palestinians are in the midst of a holy war between Muslims and their enemies, according to a Palestinian Media Watch report entitled "From nationalist battle to religious conflict."

The Palestinian Ministry of Higher Education said it was reviewing the issue, the organization reported..

"The books don't allow for a Palestinian child to accept Israel as a neighbor," Itamar Marcus, Palestinian Media Watch's director, told the Integrated Regional Information Networks (IRIN) of the United Nations. "When you define the conflict as a religious war you are no longer fighting for your own national identity or territory but for Islamic destiny. You have to accept either Islam or Israel," Marcus said.

"I would be happy if the books talked about a national struggle to get as many rights as possible. But to package it as an everlasting war is to generate years of conflict. It's child abuse against their own kids," he said."
______________________________________________

Palestinians teach Holy War to Children2

This is what the Israelis are dealing with.

Maniacal religion-inspired murderers in the Middle East [who daily promise that America and Europe are next], being coddled and sympathized with by idiots around the world who ignore the religious intolerance of Islamic murderous cutthroat fanactics warring against us, while claiming that it is Jews and Christians who are the evil ones.

No one, it seems, pays any attention at all, to the parents of these "innocent children" who prepare their children, through school textbook and classroom instruction, violence videos, and leading them in songs glorifying suicide bombing of Israeli civilians and tourists; all in the name of becoming "Martyrs of Allah", their malevolent "god" who requires them to commit acts of self-destruction in order to be rewarded with their personal use of 72 virgin sex-slaves in "paradise"

...nary a peep about this in the United Nation...don't expect it to ever be mentioned by the likes of Katie Curic, George Stephanoupolous, or Andy Rooney.

Does this sound like a people who want to live in peace to you?

Doug from CA
I think their heads are up somewhere the sun don't shine.

Palestinians teach Culture of Death 3

It's fashionable and "politically-correct" for the useful idiot liberals in this country and Western Europe, in an attempt to cozy up to Hamas, Palestinians, and anyone else who hates America & Israel [namely, Islamic jihadists who are reeking havoc the world over] in blaming Israeli policies for Palestianian "poverty" etc., etc., etc.

But when you brainwash your own children into the perpetuation of nothing but the need to kill their neighbors, demonstrating how to do so by rocketing Israeli civilians; while investing their futures to a, likely, unwinnable war...what "peace" can be realized between these and Israelis?

These Islamists strap suicide vests around their daughter's waists and send them off to die with the same nonchalance most Americans and Israelis send their daughters off to cheerleading or violin practice!!

What possible purpose would be served in a "cease-fire" with such an enemy?

The only real "cease-fire will come when Hamas, Hezbollah, and the rest of "The Martyrs of Allah" put aside their desire to kill Israelis & other non-Muslims...at the barrel of a rifle.

Visions of "paradise" and all the free pu$$y you can get, is what fuels Islamic fanaticism.

The have thousands of sex-starved adolescents lined up and ready to escape to virgin land.

Israel is dealing with a maniacal breed of brainwashed robots.

OOPs I meant
Mel from TX

Whatever happens in Israel
Is none of our business. Every time Israel looks like they are about to destroy the Palestinian war machine, we drag them off. By the same token, we give billions in aid to Israel.

We have enough problems without sticking our noses in someone else's business. Leave the world alone -- if these people can't live together, then let them kill each other. It's no skin off our backs if all of those people slaughter each other. Let's just leave them alone & let them work it out.

It's time we mind our own knitting.

Demographics
What will Israel do when the demographics keep going up for Palestinians? I believe that Israel has a right to exist, and I think that had America concentrated on building a stable Palestinian state over the past 7 years this ongoing war might have an end in site. Borders have been changed througout the 20th century -- Germany lost much of its historical territory, Poland has, Hungary has. These ethnic groups are not rioting in part because they live in stable countries (where they have food, shelter, schools, water, electricity and jobs). Palestinians do not have these things.

Germany was rebuilt after WWII -- I think a concerted effort could lead to a stable Palestine.

To Corbett Reply #1
I could not agree more!! I know it's morally right to stop a fight when you can, but this fight is long overdue and we should turn a blind eye to the Middle East. Let them work it out and if Israel is allowed to take care of themselves, this whole thing will be history in short order.

Corbett
I guess you're speaking out of ignorance.

They wipe out Israel and then the next easy one, then will have an easier time taking over us.

If you think we can cross that bridge when we come to it......pal, we are already on the bridge.

It is their(muslims) stated goal to rule the world.

To reply #16
Your thoughts are good and honorable but the last thing the Arabs in the Middle East want is a stable Palestine. The Palestinians are the pit bulls of the Arabs. They can stir them up at a moment's notice and sic them on Israel anytime they want. Believe it or not, the Egyptians, and all other muslim countries DO NOT want Isreal to exist in their midst. If the arabs wanted peace, they would merely dis-band the Palestinins and that country would no longer exist.

..............
Excellent article.

only one country in the world would
allow continued attacks from a neighbor, and that is the USA while under the control of criminal traitors like jorge w bush and his friends the liberals. if israel is going to do anything to end the hamas threat from gaza, it must do so before an even worse administration assumes control in washington dc. in 3 weeks, we will begin to discuss the necessity of sending troops to gaza to protect islamic murderers.

The inevitable Crusades
The West is allowing itself to be marginalized in our own countries by virtue of politically correct paralysis. We refuse to view the whole of Islam as a threat lest we bruise the sensibilities of "moderate" Islamists.

We witness these so-called moderates protesting by the tens of thousands in the streets of the nations of Islam, decrying our death, burning our flags and hanging our president in effigy but they do it so "moderately."

We will continue to play the proverbial Ostrich until we realize that the head that is about to be lost is the one we have plunged into the sand. At which point, the Crusades of medieval time will rise again. Unfortunately, we will be unwilling to face the "hell" necessary to win.

As for me, I plan to be one of the first to make a killing in the prayer rug business.

rebuilding "Palestine"
Feargal;
there never was any "Palestine",it's a construct of the Arabs after modern Israel was created,no "Palestinians".And before the 1967 war,Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza,yet there was never any effort to build a State of Palestine.Even after Israel departed Gaza,Hamas did nothing to -build- Palestine,only made more preparations for further war.In fact,Hamas -destroyed- valuable greenhouses left intact by Israel.

Hamas is ONLY about destruction,not building.

Jealousy angle won't work
A few posters have suggested that the Palestinians are jealous of the success of the Israelis -- and that motivates their anger. That same flawed reasoning is why people like Madoff and Noel were not investigated by the SEC -- those who suggested investigation are motivated by "anger."

60 years later, many Palestinians still live in refugee camps. This is a problem. With little to lose, people are more likely to resort to terrorism. While people might claim that Palestinians will always be at war with Israel I think that such a claim is as valid as the claim that France will always be at war with Germany.

In the 20th century many groups lost territory (Germans, Japanese, Hungarians, Poles) -- but nobody today is committing terrorist acts to take land back. People might be jealous of those who took their land (and engaged in ethnic cleansing) but people are not inherently bent on jealousy and revenge. The Irish suffered through 800 years of oppression by the English -- yet the Irish are not (for the most part) engaging in routine acts of terrorism. 150 years ago, many commentators would have suggested that the Irish were racially "inferior" and incapable of what the English could do. Today, the Irish are much richer per capita than the English.

Things do change -- there is no reason to think they cannot change with Israel and the Palestinians. However, claiming jealousy or incapacity on the part of the Palestians will just foster a constant war state.

Time for War
According to God, Jerusalem is the eternal capitol of Israel. According to Hamas, they want Israel to cease to exist and pledge their lives, or, cowards that they are, at least their children's lives, to this end. This creates a dilemma that may eventually compel Israel to take them up on their offer of martyrdom.

God, the author of a perennial bestseller, says, 'There is a time for war and a time for peace." This would appear to be a time for war.

refugee camps
Feargal;
the reason those folk live in "refugee camps" is that neither the PLO,Hamas,or the Arabs -want- to have them settled in regular housing.
Then they would have to go about BUILDING a nation,instead of making war against Israel.
The camps also provide a steady source of "martyrs" and warriors to fight agasint their enemy;Israel.Just look at the indoctrination and "education" Hamas and Fatah are giving their children.

And your statement about "nobody today is committing terrorist acts to take land back" is ridiculous;Hamas and Fatah both commit terror acts such as homicide bombings and rocket attacks against Israeli civilians -to destroy Israel and "take back their lands".

Feargal needs to actually LEARN the history of this land before she forms an opinion.

Mr. Smith's family
Assuming Mr. Smith is telling the truth about his ancestry, do you suppose that his grandparents voted for Thurmond in 1948 and Wallace in 1968? The answer: more likely than not. 100 years after Sherman committed the acts he committed Southerners remembered what Sherman did -- their view was not positive.

Would Mr. Smith's ancestors disown him for his use of Sherman as a positive example? Yes.

That being said, does he seriously think that the CSA and the USA were about as far apart as Israel and Palestinians? The USA shared a common history, religion and traditions as the CSA. Lee attended the same university as Grant.

..............
----.And before the 1967 war,Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza,yet there was never any effort to build a State of Palestine.Even after Israel departed Gaza,Hamas did nothing to -build- Palestine,only made more preparations for further war.-----

To add to Jay Wye's comment, Egypt only gained control Gaza in 1949, prior to that it was ancestral Jewish land called Azzah. It is where David defeated the philistine Goliath in order to save the Jewish inhabitants.

The palestinians are occupying Jewish lands in Gaza and the West Bank [Judea and Samaria].

Wye did not read my posting
I clearly stated that no Poles, Germans or Hungarians (or Japanese) are engaging in terrorism to take their land back. These groups all have pretty good arguments, but because they have stability, they choose not to engage in terrorism.

Are you suggesting that Palestinians are somehow different than any other group? People used to make that claim about the Irish, but it was untrue (the reverse is probably true).

Azzah was a long time ago
Few Jews lived in Gaza for over 1000 years. Under your rationale the Angles and Saxons should be thrown out of England and the Corish, Welsh and Bretons should be given that land.

The Palestinians in Gaza were actually different ethnically than the Egyptians that temporarily controlled that land (and lived in Gaza). The Ottoman empire history that pre-dated that period is what it is.

Of course, if you throw God in that complicates things a whole lot. To me, it is less than clear that God wants the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank.

Wye makes my point
The Palestinians are different. They had no Marshall plan or rebuilding effort like the Japanese and Germans.

Remember how evil the Japanese were during WWII? They engaged in horrific treatment of POWs, went on thousands of suicide missions and had soldiers that were fighting in Islands as recently as the 1970s. How are the Palestinians "worse" from an "evil" standpoint than the Japanese between 1935-1945?

unlike Smith and Wye
I do not have the moral confidence to always claim that the ends justify the means. While I do agree with America's general position during WWII, I do not believe that the firebombing of Dresden was appropriate. Many people disagreed with that decision at the time. FDR deliberately chose not to destroy Kyoto -- perhaps he was right, or maybe he was wrong.

..............
------Few Jews lived in Gaza for over 1000 years.-----

Jews occupied Azzah until arab pogroms finally drove them out in 1929. No cries from bedwetting liberals about Jews having their homes stolen.

..............
------The Palestinians are different. They had no Marshall plan or rebuilding effort like the Japanese and Germans.-----

The Japanese and Germans had functioning, sophisticated societies prior to the war. Rebuilding them, once the enemy was destroyed and permanently silenced, is far easier than building a society for those who've only know barbarism, peasantry and the koran. They do not want modernity, they want war, which is why they voted for hamas as their govt.

Why do you suppose the oil rich arab states don't help the palestinians? Why do they not absorb them into their populations?

corrections
An unfortunate collateral result of the Iraq war is that Fatah lost much of its support and Hamas filled the gap. Too many neo-con Americans could distinguish between Hamas and Fatah (since Fatah clearly also had a history of terrorism).

What kind of functioning society did the Catholic majority Irish have 100 years ago? I had ancestors whose native language was Irish and as recently as 40 years ago lived in a home where the roof was made of thatch. The cartoon depitions of Irish were not very flattering -- unless you think being considered drunken apes nice.

Do you really claim that the Palestinians caused as much havoc as the Germans and the Japanese during WWII?

People 10 years ago would have said it was impossible for Sinn Fein and the DUP to have a governing coalition. 20 years ago, the DUP leader, Ian Paisley, attended a Pan-European gathering with the Pope screaming that the Pope was the anti-Christ (and carrying large signs saying that as well).

Under the rationale of Mr. Smith and some other posting here the Palestinians should be wiped out.

I dissent from that view.

actual correction
I meant could not distinguish between Fatah and Hamas. Prior to the election, I heard some pro-neocon people state that Fatah was as bad as Hamas (because Arafat could not be trusted in the past). Perhaps this was stated because polls suggested that Hamas would win an election. I completely agree that Fatah is much more likely to support a peace plan than Hamas -- but the same could I suppose be said about the UUP and the SLDP versus Sinn Fein and the DUP.


Another incorrect statement
In 1929 very few Jews lived in Gaza -- they were a very small minority of the population. It is true that that small minority was driven out. In 1929 Germans were the majority in what today is Poland, Poles were a majority of what today is the Ukraine and Belarus, ethnic Germans were (and still are) the majority of Alsace-Lorraine, Hungarians were the majority in much of Romania.

Historically, native Irish were the majority of County Antrim and Down in Ireland -- though that is no longer the case. However, the native Irish are a much larger percent of the population today (and they were in 1929) when the number of Jews in relation to Gaza is compared to these other situations -- there is no comparison. Most of the Jews who were forced out (by the British) had only recently come to Gaza.

Native Irish are the majority today in Derry, Fermanaugh and probably County Tyrone -- and in Northern Ireland.

How did you feel about Kosovo? Did you support the U.S. position that was pro-Albanian immigrant or the historical Serbian argument?

The Great Satan Forgets
While I do not actually know what religion The Great Satan is, that person is likely ignorant of the fact that Palestinian Christians at one point comprised about 20% of all Palestinians. These people are descended from the oldest Christian communities in the world. Call them barbaric if you wish, but history is what it is. I agree that nobody cares about these "barbaric" peoples just like the Christians of Iraq are unliked. Most Christian Palestinians have left, but there is still a sizable minority of Christians in the West Bank.

I would conclude that this person is also ignorant of the fact that at one point (probably as recently as 40 years ago) a majority of people in Lebanon were Christians. Syria still has many Christians. I suppose that these barbaric people do not matter since they are apparently followers of the Koran (?).

People said terrible things about many other groups to justify violent ends. The English made many compelling points to justify An Gorta Mor -- Cromwell similarly made such compelling points.

barbaric peasants
Since most of my ancestors have been described as barbaric peasants, I thought I would post a cite which provides compelling arguments illustrating that point:

http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_2.html

Palestinians should be wiped out:

1) Because they all follow the Koran
2) Because Gaza voted for Hamas
3) Because they are barbaric
4) Because they are terrorists
5) Because other "oil rich" Arabs did not sufficiently come to their aid.

Germans should be wiped out:

1) Because they are all Lutherans
2) Because they voted in large numbers for Hitler
3) Because they operated concentration camps
4) Because they killed many civilians
5) Because they believed they were entitled to Polish lands
6) Because other Germanic peoples (Swedes, Danes, Dutch) did not stop them.

Who cares whether any of these facts are true.

Sherman "factory hands" "Roswell Women"
Unlike Mr. Smith, my relatives who were in the U.S. lived and fought for the Union. Still, I acknowledge that many people in the North believed that Sherman committed war crimes.

A New York newspaper wrote: "It is hardly conceivable that an officer bearing a United States commission of Major General should have so far forgotten the commonest dictates of decency and humanity...as to drive four hundred penniless girls hundreds of miles away from their homes and friends to seek their livelihood amid strange and hostile people. We repeat our earnest hope that further information may redeem the name of General Sherman and our own from this frightful disgrace." Sherman said the women were "tainted with treason and...are as much governed by the rules of war as if in the ranks. … The whole region was devoted to manufactories, but I will destroy every one of them"

Certainly, Mr. Smith believes Israel should engage in a similar strategy.

feargalX says: LOTTTTTSSSS
Mr Smith's article is RIGHT ON TARGET!! (Oh, Sorry, I can't say "Target" right??)
I am not a long-time fan of Israel, but over the years I've become convinced that the best course of action is exactly what they're pursuing now!! It's obvious to me that HAMAS (aka IRAN) will not relent SO-Anybody Got General Sherman's pager number??
Even U will admit that Sherman got his adversary's attention!! HAPPY NEW YEAR

It is interesting that Roy lives in WV
Given that WV is only a state because of the Civil War. While Iran may back Hamas, in the long run they are fundamentally very different (Iran is majority Shiite, Hamas is a fundamentalist Sunni party). Iran considers itself a revolutionary state, so they support many different revolutionary movements (including the I.R.A.). Historically, there are more Christians as a portion of the Palestinian population than Shiite Muslims.

Sherman's tactics may have had short term -- but they left much of the South with a desire to become a separate country for 100 years (hence the popularity of Thurmond and Wallace in 1948 and 1969). Sherman did not do a good enough job (at least following your reasoning) since Georgia and Mississippi both had the Confederate War flag as part of their state flag (Ga recently modified it). What do you think that meant? I think a lot of Southerners did not forget Sherman -- and they kept what he did in their collective memories for 100 years.

Your espoused "policy" has actually caused most Christians in Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq to leave their homeland over the past 40 years. Evidently, you think all middle easterners are Muslims -- they are not.

"FeargalX" says,
"Your espoused "policy" has actually caused most Christians in Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq to leave their homeland over the past 40 years."

Um, actually, Christians were "caused" to leave by your murdering muslims. You see, most people don't like "living" in an ongoing genocide of themselves. You might say they even find living to be antithetical to the goals of those genociding them. Hmm, imagine that.

Poor analysis
TH must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel to get meaningful commentary.

Smith's article is just a rehash of right wing dogma fuelled by the powerful pro-Israel lobby. The same right wing, John Wayne cowboy style shoot em up policy that has been an abject failure ever since the US got involved in the mess created by the British and the French almost 100 years ago.

The level of ignorance about the history of the Palestine problem demonstrated by most Americans and many in the West is appalling.

Smith quotes former CIA operative Lopez as saying that the Jews have a historical claim to Palestine. Sure they do ... but the Palestinians have a prior claim.

The Arab Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites, the first known inhabitants of the area known as Palestine today. They lived there about 3000 BC - way before the Jews came to that area.

The Hebrews came to the area around 1400 BC. The Jews were "expelled" by Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans at various points in history.

So to claim that the Jews have foremost claim to the area is unfounded.

Hopefully, President elect Obama will change American policy in the Middle East away from the failed right wing prescriptions.

A Time for Redemption
Mr. Smith,

I agree with you. Now, is the time for Israel to redeem the land they so willingly gave up to have peace with the Palestinians.

Too much time has passed and so little has been gained from the concessions made by the Israeli people.

The Palestinians have proven themselves to be less than animals. At least animals, kill only when they are defending themselves or when they have to eat. The Palestinians incite war and death because that is the path that they have chosen.

There is no reasoning with people filled with so much hate and total disregard for life.

All of Gaza needs to be purged and cleansed of these people.

The next target should be Iran.

Thanks for the fine read.


RE MR SMITHS OFFERING
FEARGALX --good to see Ur aware of the origins of the State of "West by G-D VA"!! I don't really have any axe to grind in this dog-fight but the many faces of this Palestinian Standoff
probably will never be resolved..As to who was there first: Dr William Dever (I think he's now at U of AZ) has some interesting insight into this but he's controversial as well. Have a good nite..

My murdering Muslims
2spot claims that Christians left Palestine due to the murdering Muslims. First, Christianity came way before Islam -- and those Christians were somehow able to survive the last 1800 years until the last 40 years. Many of Christian Arabs were killed by Jews -- but some of them also left because (rightly or wrongly) somehow Christianity became linked with anti-Palestinianism. So, many of them (for good reason) left.

Murdering Muslims certainly have driven about 1/2 of the Christians from Iraq over the last 5 years, but the invasion of Iraq was the event that immediately preceeded the burning of churches and killing of bishops and priests. America did virtually nothing for 5 years to protect Iraqi Christians.

Cheryl contends that "The Palestinians have proven themselves to be less than animals" and "All of Gaza needs to be purged and cleansed of these people."

Have the Palestinians caused as much suffering as the Germans or Japanese did during WWII? How about the Russian majority of the Soviet Union under Stalin? Should we not cleanse Germans, the Japanese and Russians as well?

It can be problematic to purposely engage in genocide. If someone is a Christian I would think there might be some pause before killing descendents of people who embrased Christianity 1000 years before much of Europe did so -- and kept that faith under years and years of Ottoman rule. Cleanse them. Kill them. Who will pay the price for that? Likely Israel. If Gaza and the West Bank are stable violence will go down. Remember, the Japanese engaged in suicide missions in incredible numbers -- and worshiped their emperor only 65 years ago.


THE 'LIFE' THEY'RE AFTER
Terrorists are bred and programed to achieve one and only one goal, the 'life' they're after, which is their 'life' after death.
Terrorists cannot be reprogramed or de-programed. The clearest example of this was Atta, a terrorist of 9/11. He lived in the US for years, exposed to 'freedom' peace and democracy, but this did not 'change' his belief that his 'higher power' would grant him the immortal happiness of 'life' after death with an even greater reward by paying the price of a martyr.
'Life' in the here and now has no value to terrorists, it's simply a means to an end--ending the lives of others and gaining admittance for themselves to the 'life' after death they seek.
I cannot (for the 'life' of me) understand why the leaders and people of all Countries do not realize the necessity of irradicating all terrorists, wherever they are, to end the breeding of their programmable youth and exterminate the fatal disease of terrorism.
Israel is currently fighting a war against terrorists and terrorism, all non-terrorist Leaders and Countries SHOULD join Israel to win this war, for they will be next to be 'wiped' off the map should Israel fail.

who do you suppose Cheryl and Eunice are
more like? Theo Van Gogh or Mohammed Bouyeri? The answer is Bouyeri. Violent religious radicals are who they are -- and they are quite self assured since frequently they believe God is directing them towards acts of violence.

Mr. Smith would never ever have the nerve to Confront the "Sons of the Confederacy" and explain how wonderful Sherman was to the South. I am sure that Mr. Smith also was a big time campaigner for the Georgia flag chance issue. No doubt that he is boycotting Mississippi because of its flag.

Sherman's March
Any time that Sherman is quoted I read the Article. This is well written. Thank You for your service Marine,... From a Gator Freighter Sailor...

FeargalX, do you have another life?
and do you sleep more than three hours at night dearie?
Some of your posts make sense but I see nothing where Smith praises Sherman. I only see where he agrees with the genera's statement that 'war is hell', and I doubt anyone north or south, conservative or liberal would disagree with that.

Israel vs. Hamas aka Iran
It would be best if Israel re-took the Golan Heights and the Gaza strip and drove the Palestinians and Hamas completely out. Every time the Israelis have given something up for peace, Hamas never honored it. They are not to be believed under any circumstance and the only way they will be deterred is throught their deaths and destruction. Screw UN/World Opinion. The UN is nothing more than a front for Islamic and other dictatorial scumbag countries.

Wishful thinking
But it ain't gonna happen. Caroline Glick's article today is closer to the ugly truth. Israel's current leadership does not have the steel to actually win. In fact, I doubt that any of Israel's mainstream political parties have what it takes. Most Jews are liberals and have a liberal leftist mindset. They are not willing to elect leaders that will do what is really necessary to win - which is the complete deportation of enemy populations. The only way Israel can survive for another 30 years is to completely remove all the Palestinians from the West bank and Gaza. Countries with no real government such as Lebanon or Somalia are probably the only places they can be realistically deported to. Even if all the enemy were deported to Lebanon, Israel would still be subject to bombardment. But it would allieviate the problem of being surrounded, and by concentrating the enemy in one place, deterrence could be achieved through retailiating to any missile attack with massive firepower - MOABs and thermobarics. Currently with Israel surrounded, no policy of deterrence has any hope of working, even if the most massive firepower was used.

The Mussolini delusion
Smith and many Israelis suffer from the same as Mussolini. When confronted with the problem of 20,000 communists, the Italian tough guy started killing them all, until by war's end there were 1 million of them. They forget another dictum--war is politics by other means, but it's still politics. There are no technical solutions. Even if you nuke 'em all, what do you do the day after when 1.2 billion Muslims respond, not to mention the rest of us?

Israel
Israel should shake the nuclear fist at the arab world around them. Let them know if they interfere their major cities are in direct danger of complete destruction. Then they should clear out the Golan Heights and Gaza.
Only by showing their forthwith to finish the job will Israel continue to be. They have no staunch allies. Only God.

Ralph in FL
Ralphie are you just making this stuff up or getting it from some Arab, Muslim,“Palestinian” propaganda source? Your “ignorance [or deliberate deception and lies] about the history of the ‘Palestinian’ problem … is appalling.” You are wrong on every claim that you make – “’Palestinians’ have a prior claim,” “Arab ‘Palestinians’ are … descendants of … Canaanites [who] lived there about 3000 BC … before the Jews came to that area,” “Hebrews came … around 1400 BC … were expelled by Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans at various points.” Thus your conclusion “that the Jews [do not] have foremost claim to the area is unfounded.”
Credible Middle East scholars agree no one knows for sure who the “Palestinians” are, from where they came, of whom they are descended, or even if there is any such thing as a “Palestinian.” Hebrews were living in the region on the specific land even before the exodus from Egypt of the Israelites. They have lived there continuously in some numbers despite the Assyrian and Babylonian partial exiles, return of many to the land, the Roman occupation and destruction, or the Diaspora.
I doubt you even know in your anti-Israel, Israeli, Jewish prejudice and hatred and pro-Arab-Muslim-“Palestinian” bias: 1) who first called the land Palestine thus “Palestinians”), when or why, or 2) that UN Resolution 181 of 1947 provided for both the Modern State of Israel (thus an Ancient Israel) and a Palestinian State to be established; and 3) that the “Palestinians” refused on the grounds of not recognizing the legitimacy of Modern Israel.
If you can read and are interested I have several sources for these truths. Otherwise Ralphie press on in your aiding, abetting, supporting of and apologizing for Islamic jihadists intent on the destruction of Israel, all Israelis, Jews, and takeover of the world for Allah to establish a worldwide caliphate with Shar’ia law.

Unfortunately
there's no 'winning' in that region. The 'tit for tat' killing ebbs and flows but never stops. Anyone who thinks that Hamas or Hezbollah can be eliminated needs their head examined.

muslims
How in the world can any straght-thinking person believe anything that come from an old demented man that's holed up in a cave?

You get a bunch of virgins when you die? Don't make me laugh, a well-endowed prostitute would be a lot better.

You muslims are really brainwashed and Jim Jones would have been a good leader for you also.

Gregdn
One could have said that about Egypt and Saudi Arabia too, 20 years ago. What one needs is a president like Carter. But, I agree, the way Israel is going about it makes one think they have other plans, like drawing in Lebanon and Iran into the war, and thus bringing in the US. It makes no sense otherwise.

AND WHAT HAS IRAN
promised Hamas or Hezzbala (?spelling) in return for provoking Israel into war and distracting the US and other Nations while Iran procedes with the technology to build nuclear weapons?
An educated guess would be that Iran has promised to share their future weapons of mass destruction with them.
Our Government knows this as do other International Leaders.
Another educated guess would be that our incoming liberal left Government and other International Leaders are sitting on their hands, waiting for the time to be 'Ripe' to create a 'global' Government. "Citizens of the World" sound familiar?

Unconditional Surrender
A tactic the allies used in WWII to defeat the Axis powers. It has proven to bring lasting peace even against a very radical and determined Japanese Empire. A half-century later proves it was the correct response. It is time for Israel to adopt the same strategy.

Why is everyone over reacting?
In three weeks our "messiah" will be in office. He'll simply give one of his patented speeches and the backs of all male legs on both sides will tingle with his word. For the women of both sides of the conflicts, he'll simply remove his shirt.

fishy

Hamas, and the PLO have been at war with Israel since 1947, or back to Kind David and earlier. Iran has feelings for the slaughter of innocent Palestinians, as do most of the world, and now, the sympathy of one Democrat in Congress. Killing all these innocent children, is surely anti-christian and would have been condemned by Reagan and most US presidents except Bush.

Al Wynn from office this year, has the following to say about Israel/Gaza:

I am deeply disturbed by this week's escalation of hostilities in the Gaza Strip, as I have been by the ongoing rocket fire into southern Israel. To support Israel and to ease the humanitarian crisis facing the people of Gaza, the United States must work actively for an immediate ceasefire that ends the violence, stops the rockets, and removes the blockade of Gaza.

--

That's as strong as it gets from our government. AIPAC knows their job!

No Culture War
Cain murdered Able because Able was getting a better deal from God. Jelousy was the motive and culture had nothing to do with it. Arab tribes are killing for possesion of oil wells.
What has culture to do with it??
Gaza residents would give up their anger if the wealth of Israel was handed over to them. If that happened there would be the wildest and loudest Hash Hish party in history.

The truth shall set you free!
Thank you Tom for your insightful and right on target article. This mornings news paper head lines condemn the invation of the Gaza Strip, it should have read, Hamas continues to break the treaty, with continued indiscriminate missile attacts on Israeli homes.
The news media continues it's biast, miss leading and untruthful garbage, is a disgrace to American journalism.
History is the teacher, look for the truth.

a few more uncontested facts
1) For about 600 years, Muslims ruled what is now Gaza, Israel and the West Bank without a mass exodous of Christians. For that matter, they ruled Lebanon (which was a majority Christian land) as well. Christians began leaving in high numbers about 50 years ago.

2) It is far from theologically clear that Israel is a "divine mandate." Most religious Jews did not believe that to be the case and were very opposed to "returning" to Israel. An interesting movie which depicts this as one of the themes is the movie "The Chosen."

No win
Only when Israel becomes a Christian nation will it have the ability to live in peace.
Till then, it will exist in chaos as fortold.

gorge
Like Israel hasn't broken a million treaties? And, that's beside the point, where in the treaty did it say Gaza could be blockaded and starved?

Taft in Ca
Palestinians are not 'innocent' of voting Hamas terrorists into power. If Palestinians want to live in peace, co-existing with Israel and 'protecting' the only true 'innocents', their children, who did not vote for Hamas, then the Palestinians need to remove their Hamas terrorists from power. If they can't or they won't, then Israels only recourse for the continuous attempted murders of Israeli citizens, who ARE innocent, is to do so.
Would you prefer our Nation to still be at war with Japan?

Taft in Ca
Interesting how Gazas blockade didn't stop Hamas from smuggling in weapons, instead of smuggling in food or medicine for their people. And if Iran cared diddly squat for the Palestinian people they'd have been supplying Hamas with food and medicine, instead of arms.

andrewpurdy is factually wrong
Israel's problem is not really Gaza and the West Bank (let's just pretend that issue somehow solves itself) -- it is the fact that Israel proper is 20 percent Arab. Israel, in part, aside from violence issues is being demographically changed due to birthrate and "immigrations." It is similar to what is happening in the American Southwest.

Mr. Smith and many of the posters here would (unwittingly) cause the destruction of Israel with their policies. It is not practical to "kill" everyone who identifies with the Palestinian cause (if you add up every Arab who lived in that territory 61 years ago + his/her children, g-children, etc. they outnumber the Jews in Israel. You might have to kill about 10,000,000 people -- and it would likley be necessary to kill more since some people would sympathize with mass killings.

Israel has a chance in surviving -- if Gaza and the West Bank somehow become prosperous and Arabs within Israel voluntarily want to choose that "nationality" I think that they would have a chance in averting dissaster.

The people who post on this board purportedly supporting Israel seem similar to me to radical Muslims -- the claim that all people in Gaza are "less than animals" and should be "ethnically cleansed" speaks for itself.

It is very troubling to me that Mr. Smith was in our military. While he was in the military service did he do the kind of things that Sherman did in the South? I hope not, but I have to wonder.

Palestinians Stand Up -
Open your eyes and rid yourselves of Hamas. Create an environment that rejects terror, extremism, suicide bombings, jihad. Israel gave you a chance in Gaza in 2006 for a state, economic viability, membership in the world community, a chance for your children and their children. Palestine and Israel can exist together. Rise up and throw off the barbed yoke of Hamas, Hezbollah.

Fishy

The collective guilt thing..the people voted Hamas in fails in several aspects.

1. The leaders of Fatah and Israel though it was a bad idea to let hem have elections and that they probably would win but Bush pushed for elections anyway.

2. Not everyone voted for Hamas and those who had been in Gaza and not happy with Hamas will now have an even harder time with discontent.

3. The killing is far too disproportionate and makes maters worse around the world. How much more danger will our troops be in now in Iraq, who , btw, are sending in aid to Gaza.

Fatah lost the election for many reasons
But I fundamentally do not think that it was related to the voters becoming more radical. I would prefer Israel to invade Gaza than engage in indiscriminite bombing -- a lot of collateral damage has occurred (thousands dead) while initially nobody was killed in Israel.

It would have been a lot more productive if 6 years ago the United States decided to spend its resources to try to solve the Palestinian issue rather than spending $1,000,000,000,000 in the Iraqi invasion.

Many Iraqis will always resent America -- like many Southerners resented Sherman. It will not be forgotten for a while. Perhaps in 125 years Iraqis will joke about Abu Ghareb -- but it probably won't happen anytime soon.

50 years ago, if Smith were to go around the South telling "his people" how wonderful Sherman was he might have found himself lynched.

FeargalX
Smith never said Sherman was "wonderful".
He agreed war is hell. Don't you believe it is.

Sherman

Never blockaded a city and shelled its citizens like sitting ducks.

Sherman


"FROM ATLANTA.; Another Epistolary Broadside From Gen. Sherman. Correspondence With the City Authorities. A Refusal to Allow the Women and Children to Remain. THE AUTHORITIES TO GEN. SHERMAN. GEN. SHERMAN'S REPLY. GEN. HOWARD'S CONGRATULATORY ORDER TO THE ARMY OF THE TENNESSEE.


September 24, 1864, Wednesday

Re: Sherman
Taft, do you actually believe what you just said?

Tad

It should be corrected to, shelling women and children.

Gaining liberal support
Loved Corndog's #% response. Excellent!!

I will entertain an alternative meaning
of "Nevertheless, there are indeed justifications for this hell-on-earth we call “war"

The first part of the story says what it says. It sounds like an endorsement to me -- putting it differently, it seems pretty much like "even though my family paid a heavy price for what Sherman did, in the end his policies -- and other similar 'war is hell' policies can be justified."

I disagree with Mr. Smith -- and I am concerned that his beliefs impacted his service in our military.

I have no problem saying today that the firebombing of Dresden was wrong and unnecessary. I also think that the ethnic cleansing of Germans from what today is Poland was immoral. I can say that even though I do support the Allies war effort of WWII in general.

Correction
Seems Sherman would kill women and childen,..if the were Indians.

"
Accordingly, Sherman wrote to Grant: "We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children." Writing two days later to his brother John, General Sherman said: "I suppose the Sioux must be exterminated . . ." (Fellman, p. 264)."

FeargalX
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing. Disagree all day long. But don't put words in others' mouths or try to divine some evil intent on the part of others just because you disagree with them.
That's what liberals so often do, and it makes our conservative heads want to explode in frustration.

Doug
Ditto

I will try to mimic Smith
During the last year of WWII, the Soviet Union avenged its earlier defeats. The general tenor in the writings was that the Red Army had come to Germany as an avenger and judge to punish the Germans.The Soviet author Ilya Ehrenburg wrote on January 31, 1945 "the Germans have been punished in Oppeln, in Königsberg and in Breslau. They have been punished, but yet not enough. Some have been punished, but yet not all of them ..."

Calls of Soviet generals spurred on the soldiers, in addition. On January 12, 1945, army General Cherniakhovsky turned to his troops with the words "There shall be no mercy - for anyone, as there was no mercy for us... The land of the fascists must become a desert …"

Even though I am German, and my people suffered at the end of WWII, "Nevertheless, there are indeed justifications for this hell-on-earth we call 'war.'"





FeargalX
Your "mimic" falls flat because that is not what this article says.
Smith also says he "prays" for a "speedy end to the conflict for the sake of the innocents". and "Israel has a right – in fact an obligation to its people – to fight madmen who deliberately target civilian populations (with no military value whatsoever) with rockets, mortars, and suicide bombers".

Note he says "madmen" not th civilian population.
and
"Forget the diplomacy of gentlemen: It doesn’t work with Jihadists – celebrating bombers who deliberately target kids on playgrounds and families in restaurants – who only pretend to negotiate and come to terms in order to buy time for Jihad".

Smith's words
How exactly is saying "He was right: There is no way to bring war to the enemy that does not mirror what we might imagine hell to be" not an endorsement of Sherman's policies. Smith wrote what he wrote -- if you agree with Smith fine, if not fine, but he wrote what he wrote. Don't pretend that Smith's writing is different than what it is.

I am not infering any evil intent -- I firmly believe that the Policies of Sherman were evil -- and they were counterproductive for decades because of what the South remembered. Smith disagrees with my point.

I am interested in what others may think of Sherman -- Smith and I disagree -- I am not putting words in his mouth.

FeargalX
I read it as "He (Sherman)was right" in saying "war is hell"
I don't "pretend" anything, but feel free to say I do if it makes you feel better

Tad
FeargalX is talking to me kid-o.

Jeff said (@11:08 am)
"Why is everyone over reacting?
In three weeks our "messiah" will be in office. He'll simply give one of his patented speeches and the backs of all male legs on both sides will tingle with his word. For the women of both sides of the conflicts, he'll simply remove his shirt."

That was worth an encore. Criminy, why don't people lighten up and have fun here? Last I checked, NOBODY has EVER been converted on TH. Conclusion: Armed w/ the truth in my last sentence one can (#A)Try to be creative/funny in your interactions w/ "the enemy", or, (sub-paragragh 2b) Continue to mindlessly smash ones brains against the rocky skulls of those "beneath you".

Sorry I was so long. Please, carry on w/ changing the world and such...

For what it's worth FgX
I also think the firebombing of Dresden was terible.

a simple comparison
While war is hell, not every union general did what Sherman did (few others did).

In WWII, the Allies' treatment of the Germans was markedly different than the Soviet treatment of the Germans. Do I think that the Soviet Union needed to exact revenge on the German population? No. Why do I think that? Because the Allied Generals did not "need" to do that to win.

Not only did Sherman help cause a rift between the North and South for 100 years -- but the misguided post-war policies against Germany after WWI almost certainly caused the rise of Hitler less than 20 years later.




another alternative
If Smith means to suggest, by citing Sherman as an example that war is always the same hell -- I would dissent from that view as well. The hell that the Germans in the East were visited with was a "worse" hell than those in the West. The people in the South who did not get the 'Sherman treatment' did not loose as much as those that did.

Dresden was its own unique hell at the end of WWII (even though that was a decision of the Allies).

Zounds! FgX
Here's another time I agree with you.

War in Gaza
Great article. I can't believe that more Americans don't speak out for Israel. They
have no clue of the problem. Israel should
have never given up the Gaza Strip. Why doesn't
Egypt give up some land for the Palanstians?
No matter what Israel does it will never be
enough and where are the American Jews on this.
Most of them voted for Obama. Oh, well; you
get what you ask for.
I am a proud Southener who knows what Sherman did.

Oh c'mon FgX
I was starting to agree with you, then you started back divining whether or not someone means different levels of hell.
I personally don't want any hell ..... even the lesser version of hell if there is such a thing.

for Doug
Doug asks: "Weren't Abraham and Moses and all the Patriarchs and all the tribes of Israel there thousands of years before Islam existed?"

Yes, but the Islamists believe in so-called "replacement theology," which asserts that after the events of the Old Testament occurred, God changed His mind and switched His covenants from the Hebrews to somebody else. In the case of the Islamists, they believe that they are that "somebody else," and that Allah (God) has switched His support from Jews to Muslims.

"Replacement theology" used to be employed by Christian anti-Semites to claim that God no longer cares about the Jews, despite what the Old Testament said. Now it's being employed by the Islamists, who are just as anti-Semitic.

Just for kicks
I tell people that in order to win a war you have to be more ruthless and determined than your enemy. You should see their jaws drop and their eyes bug out. But this is an essential protocol to winning any armed conflict. Like it or not. Isreal should unleash HELL on Hezbollah. In my opinion, if Isreal cannot succeed against an enemy that wants nothing less than total annialation of its people, then what chance do we have if we are even less committed in doing what's necessary to win a war for the sake of fighting a battle that is fought in a way that makes us "feel good" about ourselves? There is no such thing as a "steril war" nor will there ever be.

n2win
yep, you are right, you might add that the liberal wimpywishywashy whiners ..you know the ones that never saw a preborn baby or a surviving baby of abortion they didn't want to kill..also don't give a rats patootie that when
our military pulls it's punches, it's our military that suffers the casualties, just as Israels military has and will suffer at the hands of the wimpy libs running that country.
Let's hope Bibi is elected in February.

Taft in Ca
Just how disproportionate is trying to kill someone or some group who is or are 'actively' trying to kill you.
Tell me, if your neighbor was firing bullets through your windows, and your family was at risk of being killed, and you called the police and they came to your rescue with a Swat Team and high powered artillary, would you object and tell them their weaponry and use of force was disproportionate? That they should please just shoot bullets threw the neighbors windows.
As for the Palastinians who were smart enough not to vote for Hamas, just like here, the majority did and just like here (in 2008) the minority will suffer the consequences.
Personally, I believe, Bush did not make a mistake pushing for 'free' elections for the Palestinians. It proved, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that terrorists are terrorists and will always be terrorists and that will never, ever change.

.....................
-----While I do not actually know what religion The Great Satan is, that person is likely ignorant of the fact that Palestinian Christians at one point comprised about 20% of all Palestinians.,,,,,FgX----

Dimwit, what's your point? Do you think it's a hidden secret that there are Christian arabs in Israel? If it weren't for the Jews protecting their holy sites the muslims would burn them down, much like the Germans did to Jewish synagogues.


------I would conclude that this person is also ignorant of the fact that at one point (probably as recently as 40 years ago) a majority of people in Lebanon were Christians. Syria still has many Christians.------

Dummy, it's no revelation that there are Christians in Syria and Lebanon. I happen to have many Armenian friends from Lebanon. Some became huge rockstars here in the US but I digress. As for me I lived on a kibbutz near Haifa for a short while.


----In 1929 very few Jews lived in Gaza -- they were a very small minority of the population.----

Jews were recently uprooted from Gaza by the IDF in order to give the land to the palestinians. Did you conveniently forget that fact? And how were the Jews rewarded by the palestinians? With thousands of missiles and dead Israelis. Why do you suppose the palestinian govt, hamas, didn't concentrate on improving the living standards of the their people? Why do you suppose arafat embezzled billions intended for the palestinians? You do realize per capita the palestinians receive more welfare than any other group on earth.

When a culture like Islamism...
... deliberately teaches its children "Fighting and dying for Allah is your only reason for being born," there can be no negotiation... save with the fist, knife, bullet or bomb.

Did you know that in the madrassas (Islamist schools) children are taught to fall asleep each night while imagining a different way to die?

It's all part of the indoctrination process... teaching tomorrow's suicide bombers to embrace death with a total (and wholly unnerving) absence of fear...

Ronald in FL
What we do know is that an indigenous non- white population (reports state that approximately 95% of the early 20th century Palestine population was Arab)was displaced and their lands seized by a colonial power to make way for a European (white) population.

The seizure of Palestinian land by the European powers (Britain and France)is just one more of the atrocities inflicted by the "superior" European peoples on the non-white populations around the world.

The creation of Israel is a grim reminder of the maxim "might is right".

As to the claim that the Jews have some inalienable right to come back to a place after 2000 years and claim it as theirs, this is preposterous.

By your argument Kemo Sabe, the North American Indian should reclaim their continent from the white interlopers.

But I guess not, for as former British prime minister Winston Churchill, a great supporter of Zionism, once said of the Palestinian Arabs:

"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

(Churchill's contribution to the Palestine Royal Commission, 1937).

Yes Ronald, you, press on in your aiding, abetting, supporting of and apologizing for Israel's illegal occupation and destruction of Palestine and its people.

Ralph in FL Again - 1
Ralphie watching you make a fool of yourself in front of the world with your abysmal ignorance and typical Liberal muddleheaded attempt at argumentation would be funny if the survival of Israel, Israelis and about half of the world’s remaining Jewish population after the WWII Holocaust were not so serious.
In your pathetic attempt at a response you did not address a single one of the true historical facts I presented to you. You refused to deal with any part of UN Resolution 181 that provided for both Israel and Palestinian states. You presented again erroneous information as your facts. You posed an analogy of matters that are not at all comparable. You did not ask for the references I offered to provide in case you are literate and capable of reading with comprehension and understanding.
In other words you continued as an anti-Israel, Israeli and Jew hater and as a pro-Arab, Muslim and “Palestinian” Islamic jihadist aider, abetter, supporter and apologist.



Ralph in FL Again - 2
The true historical facts and evidence from credible Middle East scholars – are still there for you to address if you believe you are capable of doing so.
The challenge for you to respond to 1) who first called the land Palestine (thus “Palestinians”), when or why, or 2) that UN Resolution 181 of 1947 provided for both the Modern State of Israel (thus an Ancient Israel) and a Palestinian State to be established; and 3) that the “Palestinians” refused on the grounds of not recognizing the legitimacy of Modern Israel is still there for you to address if you believe you are capable of doing so.
In presenting your erroneous information as facts you show that you are either ignorant of truth or lying deliberately as an Islamic jihadist puppet. In addition to the “European (white) population Modern Israel has taken into its population and is host to and blacks from Ethiopia and other locales, most recently the Sudan, and other races from around the world, some Jews, others not, like, for example, Druse – both an ethnic and religious people - who claim to be from Egypt. You can correct your ignorance on this matter by Googling Israel+demographics.

RALPH: Jew Hater...
That is what you are ...

All of your distorted facts mean that you have rationalezed your hatred of Jews. Period.

Ralph in FL Again - 3
As to your claim that Jews came “back to a place after 2000 years you need to know, as I said, Hebrews were living in the region on the specific land even before the exodus from Egypt of the Israelites. They have lived there continuously in some numbers despite the Assyrian and Babylonian partial exiles, return of many to the land, the Roman occupation and destruction, or the Diaspora. If you have trouble reading and understanding those two sentences please get someone to read and explain them to you. Some clues: 1) partial means not all Jews were exiled; 2) return of many to the land means many were allowed to return to the land after the exile(s); and 3) Hebrews have lived there continuously means Hebrews – Jews, Israelites – have lived there continuously.
I have no idea where you get your “2000 years.” By 5th or lower grade math, 2008-2000=the 8th Century AD, or CE for you revisionists. The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD/CE, and the Jews resisted being ousted from their land for many years after that. Not all left in the Diaspora. Some remained, and again as in the exiles many returned long before 1948. So it is your “facts” and claims that are preposterous.
Your attempt to insult by calling me “Kemo Sabe” is okay with me. My heritage is of British who came to America in the early 1700s and of the American Indians that married then. So I know damn well how ridiculous your analogy of Israel and the U.S. is. Israel/Israelis and America, the United States of America and Americans, including American Indians are in no way comparable with the exceptions of both the Jews and American Indians being indigenous to the land. Somewhat like the indigenous Jews, the indigenous American Indians never left America in total. Many remained and many returned but in the case of the American Indians only from contiguous lands, e.g., Canada and Mexico.

Ralph in FL Again - 4
You show a penchant for quoting political leaders, so here’s one for you: “It is not so much that our Liberal friends do not know much, it is rather that so much of what they know is wrong.” – Ronald Reagan.
Ralphie if it is your desires to have Israel and all who live there, especially the Jews destroyed and for Islamic jihadists to take over the world for Allah to establish a worldwide caliphate with Shar’ia law, grow a pair, be a man, stand up and say so plainly and clearly.

Ralph -- Arabs are "not white"
Ralph Nader, Queen Noor, Douge Flutie and Spencer Abraham look "white" to me. Arabs are not really a "race" -- it is sort of a linquistic and cultural group. It reminds me of the "Hispanic" race. We have the diversity police to thank for creating new "races" in need of "understanding." Forget history. Many Jews and Arabs look alike since many of them are distantly. That being said, I have seen more postings on this site which submit that Palestinians are "worse than animals" and need to be ethnically cleansed. My God! Where do you think the first Christians came from? Do some of you not understand that some of the Jewish converts to Christianity from 1900 years ago -- are now Palestinian Christians. I cannot defend everything that Palestianians have done (or are doing) -- a few years ago I was in arguments with neocons saying we had to do whatever we can to try to prevent Hamas from being elected. The answer? They are all the same -- they are all jealous -- the war will never end. The war was not going on in the 19th century -- so why would it have to go on in the 21st century? People lie -- people say all Arabs are Muslims, Arabs will always be jealous -- similarly people lie about the relationship between Irish Protestants and Catholics. The truth about the 1798 Rebellion does not matter. Nor does the religion of many "brave protestant man who gave their lives to free" Ireland matter -- to quote the Wolfe Tones (named after a Irish protestant nationalist). These guys are like Ian Paisley screaming at the Pope that he is the anti-Christ. 20 years later though Sinn Fein and the DUP run NI. That cooalition was about as likely as a Likud-Hamas coalition leading a united Palestine at one point -- yet it happened.

God Bless Israel
Great article. Israel is fighting as we should be fighting Islam. But since we have a democrat party that is full of traitors, and one now about to run the White House, I fear that appeasement will reign. As noted on other comments, muslims will not rest until they either kill, enslave, or convert all non-muslims.

Get rid of Hamas.
Obviously, terror groups like Hamas incite the hatred in the Middle East. Israel will be condemned by some for it's military effort to crush those terroists groups. Seeing a need to peacefully rid us of groups like Hamas, I say let Big Labor organize the errorist "workers" against Hamas "management". After seeing the pay and benefits package demanded by the union, Hamas will fold. Job bank for terrorists anyone?

Whaddaya mean ''we,'' Mr. Smith?
--
Last time I looked, the Israeli government was widely recognized as a competent national command entity (NCE) all by itself.

Have they suddenly started subordinating themselves to the U.S. Congress, and clearing their military operations with our Department of Defense?

Much as I view Israel as the only bastion of Western civilization in an otherwise blighted and execrable Islamic Middle East (and would devoutly like to evacuate every Israeli citizen, industry, and Merkava to some equivalent area in the American southwest, there to form our 51st state), and much as I approve their current attack upon Hamas, I don't think "we" have any more reason to emotionally identify with the Israeli people and their government than we'd have if the French suddenly grew themselves spines and started dealing with their own woggish internal enemies.

The Israelis have casus belli out the kazoo, and the fact that their aerial attacks have smacked the hell out of obvious munitions magazines and rocket launching sites -

(( see http://www.strategypage.com/military_videos/military_photo s_20090101121112.aspx for a sequence that shows a Kassam missile "cooked off" on its underground pad by an Israel bomb blast ))

- with whacking great secondary explosions clearly demonstrating that these targets were crammed full of Hamas rockets and warhead-making materials ought to give anyone with more brains than a "Liberal" perfect proof that the present IDF operations are more than sufficiently justified.

Only the historically illiterate could deny that what the Sabras are doing is politically as well as morally justified.

Hamas is getting what its been asking for.

Just a little harder and a great deal more lethal than they thought they'd get away with.

--

Best Way
The best way to make sure enemies do not destroy you is to make sure all your enemies are dead. Had Rome done this, they would still be an empire. If we don't do it soon, we will go the way of Rome.

Israel is too small to accomplish this, but hopefully they will come to the conclusion Iran must be destroyed. I don't think we have the common sense or guts to destroy Iran.


Israel Must Fight and Win
Good article.
As for SJ Doc, I would say that "we" sounds appropriate because it suggests the forces of freedom against the forces of jihad, and we all have a stake in this fight.
Someone said that Israel's enemies like Hamas and Hezbollah are not America's enemies. Tell that to the Marines of Beirut 1983.
Tell that to the Americans who have died at the hands of Iran's Quds Force and Lebanon's Hezbollah in Iraq.
Tell that to any American who has suffered as a result of Sunni and Shiia jihadists all of who cry for "Death to America" an seek to kill women and children.

Weight of the Past--Beth Ann
Death of Americans is our problem, not Israel's. We cannot and should not justify what Israel does by our past timidity's. Proper action on our part in Lebanon 83 may have aborted the rise of Hezbollah, likewise for positive action in Iran during Jimmy Carter's Presidency. Our meddling in Israeli's affairs may have given root and life to Hamas. Now the battle is not ours, it is Israel's; we must take no more action or interest than we do in the Congo or Zimbabwe. Only those with a vested interest in the future of Israel should be involved. Whether we want to acknowledge it or not it is a Civil War, not unlike ours with the Great Plains Indians of North America. The Indians wanted a place to live, hunt, and prosper but ultimately they had to become a part of the whole. We would never have tolerated any country trying to usurp our National Interest by interfering in our western expansion. We should understand that as fact and stay out of Israel's future. Forget the Bible, God has not asked us for help in fulfilling his prophesies.

Israel vs. the killers
Excellent article, and I agree 100%. Israel needs to, and will, crush the evil terrorists. The terrorists always starve and kill their own people. They always learn the hard way. God will never let Israel be overtaken. Never. Goodbye evil terrorists, it's over for you.

Israel should smash Hamas
There is no peace possible without a decisive victory, and that means utter dominance militarily, politically, and culturally. Hamas and the Palestinians must be smashed into submission - like the allies did to Germany & Japan in WWII. Enough of this nice guy war B.S.

Destruction & demoralization of the enemy is the role of the military - not soft diplomacy or selective targeting. The Palestinians are to be punished for choosing Hamas over peace. They should not be allowed to rule one inch of the Middle East.

The two-state solution is not possible with Iran's mullahs still financing geurilla fighters; Iran should be next.

Suicide Bombers
There is no such thing as a suicide bomber in my eyes. I call them Homicide Bombers,cold blooded murderers glorified as martyrs by the cowards who are afraid put on a uniform and fight for their cause.

Someone taking their own life for whatever the reason is suicide.

Someone who straps a bomb to themselves and kills innocent people is a murder.

Until we crush these islamofascists into oblivion there will be no peace

Israel could have made a choice
They could have bombded and killed everyone in Gaza (since they abandoned their settlments three years ago) -- I am glad they did not. I have been concluding for a couple of days that the only thing that they could do is re-take Gaza temporarily.

As for the Palestinians, I submit that most do not support Hamas -- they were elected because of Fatah related difficulties.

I cannot think of what can be done about Iran (aside from going after a known bomb being built). Bad American policy helped elect both Hamas and the current Iranian leadership -- Bush definitely got those groups votes.

Pakistan has nuclear weapons and probably has as many radical Muslims as any other country. What can we do about this? I think the only choice is to take the motivation away -- Bush lied when he state that they attack countries who "hate freedom" otherwise they would attack extremely liberal countries like Sweden.

Israeli Struck an American
In 1996, an Israeli Jew, Forrest Silverman, struck me in the face in Fairfax, Virginia. I did in no way provoke the attack--he just didn't like the fact that I was a Christian.

That being said, Israel's incursion in Gaza is justified. In 1945, we sent an incursion into Nazi Germany and caused great destruction. No matter--the Nazis started the war.

Finally
Finally, someone who sees the situation as it realy is. Why don't you get on CNN?

Ronald in FL again
At first your ignorance seemed perplexing. But then it dawned on me that you and many like you have been raised on a diet of an imperialist, colonial version of history.

Assuming a self-righteous “master of all that we survey” and “to hell with what the rest of the world thinks” and “we are God’s chosen” and “we won, ergo, we write the history” you give a partial, very biased account of the formation of Israel. The paradox is that there is so much evidence out there yet you continue to offer up the same old, discredited partisan argumentations.

As to the origin of the term “Palestine” whether it is from the word “Philistine” or not is hardly of import. What is of import is who were the people living in the lands now called Israel when it was created and in the centuries before?

I know and you know that as much as 90% or more of the inhabitants were Arabs. Tell me what percentage of the population was Jewish at that time. You said that not all of the Jews left and that some returned – which is true. But I never disputed that. Jews have always lived in Arab lands and in the vast Ottoman Empire. What I want to know is how many were there in the Palestine region at the beginning of the 20th century.

Let’s go on to UN Resolution 181 of 1947. How many countries were part of the UN in 1947? How many voted for, against or abstained? What were the precursors leading up to the UN resolution. What right did the UN have in ratifying decisions made by a colonial power taking away the territory of a people and giving it to others from other lands.

The UN at that time was in effect aiding and abetting the stealing of lands from the then inhabitants – the Palestinians.

So some questions that you have ignored:

What was the Balfour Declaration of 1917?

What about the Anglo-French Declaration of 1918?

Why were the indigenous people never consulted?

Ronald in Florida once more
Didn’t David Ben Gurion say,

‘The Jewish people have always regarded, and will continue to regard Palestine as a whole, as a single country which is theirs in a national sense and will become theirs once again. No Jew will accept partition as a just and rightful solution.’
(July 15, 1937)

http://jpress.tau.ac.il/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=UEFMRVNUSU5FL zE5MzcvMDcvMTUjQXIwMDUwMQ==&Mode=Gif&Locale=english-skin-cu stom

No wonder the Rest of the World looks on with great scepticism when what we see is The Great Land Grab just being continued by the Israelis and condoned by the United States.

As for your advice about “growing a pair”.

What, a “pair of horns”?

Like the ones you got?

No thanks.

Islam: What The West Needs To Know...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781

Hamas Charter:
Calls for the destruction of Israel. So negotiations are an oxymoron.
There are Hamas, Al-Qaeda cells in every major city within the U.S. waiting for the right moment. Also mentioned for destruction in the Hamas charter: Free Masons, Rotary club, and others. Surprised? You won't get that from the mainstream Media.


history
just saw interesting video and read information documenting the close relationship between the arab leadership and hitler.
with friends like carter, the UN, and CNN who needs enemies?
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