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Thursday, April 24, 2008
Terry Paulson :: Townhall.com Columnist
When In Pain, Find Someone to Blame: NAFTA!
by Terry Paulson
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It’s an election year again, and protectionist policies are again being played to a populist drumbeat in Democrat primaries. Facing difficult economic times and a painful housing market downturn, too many Americans are taking the wrong lessons. NAFTA is not the problem!

America has been getting a wakeup call from the world, but far too many are whining and clamoring for more government support instead of responding to the challenge. Many feel that they are entitled to a good standard of living, increasing salaries and increasing benefits. Most workers thought they could learn a skill, find a comfortable career, and work comfortably into retirement. Unfortunately, the world has changed, and too many Americans are desperately trying to hold on to jobs that are rapidly becoming unnecessary.

For the first time in history, anything can be made almost anywhere and sold everywhere. Talented and motivated workforces in India, South Korea and China are just a mouse-click away! These changes aren’t just taking American jobs; they’re also creating jobs. Most of those foreign workers are using American software. Most are drinking Cokes. They watch our TV shows, and they want the brands that we have. As other countries become more successful, they can afford to buy more American goods and services. The weakening dollar has already accelerated our export numbers.

It is true that when manufacturers in the U.S. can’t compete because of high labor costs, some move operations offshore while still others innovate more efficient manufacturing processes. Both strategies can eliminate U.S. jobs. But such changes bring down the cost of the products so more can afford them.

The expanded market for cheaper goods means more people need training to use what they buy, so trainers are hired. Anything purchased must be maintained locally; people are hired to repair and service the new products.

Such changes are painful for people unwilling to learn new skills. Economists call it “churning,” and it has happened over and over again throughout the history of capitalism. Its playing field is now global, and the speed of the churn is faster.

A few years back, Lee Kuan Yew, called by many the “Father of modern Singapore,” made some eye-opening observations about the global economy and America’s role in the world: “I see a very troubling and at the same time exciting new world in which international boundaries can be penetrated without difficulty. The flow of information, of capital cannot be stopped. ... Whether we like it or not, technology has made this a one-world market for labor. Jobs can leapfrog boundaries. But good minds in the world will command very high salaries, very high fees.”

“In the same way, jobs at the lower end of the scale can also be transferred across the globe, and will be,” Yew continued. “And so, whether Americans like it or not, whether Singaporeans like it or not, our lower-end jobs are going to be taken over by our neighbors because they will be able to do these jobs for one-half, sometimes one-quarter the price.... Unions will try to protect themselves and their members’ interests, but their jobs will run out because their companies will be beaten in the international marketplace unless they can make use of cheaper labor elsewhere. … There’s no use perceiving this as a threat because it’s going to happen…either with your participation...or against your wishes.... Ride it. You can’t fight it.”

The American dream is not dead! Wealth is still out there; it is just on the move. Instead of throwing up protectionist walls, we must help Americans meet the challenge of change. As my great uncle on the farms of Illinois used to say, “It’s easiest to ride a horse in the direction it is going.” In short, it’s wise to develop skills that will produce what customers are going to need. If you’re good at something someone needs done, you will do well!

His second advice: “If the horse is dead, get off it!” In practical terms, don’t send around resumes for skills that are no longer needed. Instead, master new competencies or lose out to those who are willing to refocus and retool to take advantage of change.

Instead of whining about the economic cards you have been dealt or waiting for the government to save you from becoming obsolete, develop your own recovery program. In fact, always invest time in your Plan B, a “What I could do next” Plan.

Let me add to my great uncle’s shared wisdom: “Since it’s hard to know if your horse is dying, have at least two horses.” Don’t wait for a career disaster, an economic downturn or a prolonged strike to hit your family! Americans should be investing 5% of their time in their next career at all times. It could mean starting a small business on the side, looking for cross-training opportunities or volunteering to work on a key strategic project. There will always be a need for people who can make a difference where it counts for customers willing to pay!

Many have said, “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks!” Well, you become an old dog when you stop doing new tricks. Welcome to the challenge of lifelong learning, your best insurance policy for the 21st century! Be thankful that in America, there are great educational institutions ready to help you meet that challenge.

When one young woman complained that to do what she wanted to do would require going back to school, I challenged her to take it one course at a time. She complained that if she took it once course at a time, “she’d be 45 by the time she got the degree she needed.”

Having already passed that milestone, I responded, “Optimistically, you will be 45 anyway. You’re either 45 with a degree or you’re 45 without one.” I asked her how long she had been thinking about her decision. When she confided she had been considering it for three years, I said, “You could have been 42! Get on with it!”

Don’t wait for Washington politicians to produce on their empty promises. In these difficult economic times, ensure your own success the old-fashioned American way—by earning it yourself one day at a time.

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About The Author

Terry Paulson, PhD is a psychologist, award-winning professional speaker, author of The Dinner: The Political Conversation Your Mother Told You Never to Have, and long-time columnist for the Ventura County Star.

 
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Mr. Paulson,
Since when did jobs become a commodity? Trade has to do with importing and exporting goods, not people. Just how do you expect people to make a living? Not everyone can have a baloney degree like you do and be paid to utter such garbage. I for one, would like to be able to buy a Hershey bar still made in the U.S., or a piece of clothing, or a toy, or a dinner plate, etc. You are under the ridiculous assumption that service sector jobs will take the place of manufacturing jobs. How can we consume without incomes?
The" Global "economy is a smokescreen for the downfall of America. We are becoming a third world country. Just look at our trade deficit. I say we bring in Chinese psychologists and professors. I hear Wal Mart is hiring, Mr. Paulson.

NAFTA Sucks, big time
quote:
"Americans are taking the wrong lessons. NAFTA is not the problem!

America has been getting a wakeup call from the world, but far too many are whining and clamoring for more government support instead of responding to the challenge."
-------

The only lesson the American Worker is taking is job loss. A lesson he could do without
So for them it makes sense to say NAFTA is a problem.
It is.
In fact it is the most disgusting and rotten deal this government has ever made against its own Citizens.

People like you Mr Paulson, think all of us are so dumb we can actually be hoodwinked into believing your nonsense.

Why don't you quit whining yourself over people not swallowing this bs you write.


Yes, we have sold our birthright....
for cheap foreign products. Our dollar is sinking and so in the US economy. In a few years, when we are a second world country, the jobs will flow back. Good luck making a living with one of those jobs. Free trade is and will be our downfall.

If NAFTA
is so good for Americans, why was it fast tracked? I don't recall anything in the Constitution about fast tracking any law or treaty. When something is fast tracked, I kind of get the idea that there's something not quite right, like the midnight scamnesty deal McCain/Kennedy/Bush tried shoving down America's throat.
I don't know about anyone else but I got a feeling the columnist was talking down to us.

NAFTA Unconstitutional, Big Time
Let's face it, NAFTA wasn't only fast tracked, it is unconstitutional. NAFTA is a treaty no matter what its name. A treaty is to be ratified by 2/3 of the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives doesn't vote on treaties, yet NAFTA was approved by a simple majority of both houses of Congress. Wicked men like Mr. Paulson consider American citizens as nothing more than units of labor or a bushel of tomates.

I didn't even read the article!!!
I don't have to, cause I already know that NAFTA is very bad for America.

These writers for TH.com would stick a knife in your belly and tell you it's good for you. Time to wake up people.


95% Employed...
There haven't been too many job losses, given the emplyoment rates are at historical highs...the author is correct..jobs will and do change, whether people do or not...there was a time when 90% of everyone was an ag worker...those jobs no longer exist,and most standards of living are better because of it...

Another anti-NAFTA grouse
The little fact that Consular officials (and Immigration officials at POE's) are oft NAFTA-clueless. I ran into one of these returning to Hartsfield Airport from Gatwick in 1999 (I was on a TN-1 at the time); it may sound trivial, but isn't.

For Paul08: based on media-coverage-only, the treaty (Canada-US Free Trade Pact) which morphed into NAFTA seemed to have received almost unanimous approval in 1988 (FYI, both VPOTUS candidates that year voted in its favour). That may be why it was fast-tracked--a contortionist could argue that the base treaty had already been ratified.

talent scout....
Does free trade benefit any American if a single American job is lost?

the Mercantilist falacies of the NAU conspiracists, never cease to amaze me.

No Nafta ain't perfect,...no one from the Austrian school of economics ever said it was, but it appears we are confusing perfect with good, and asking for protectionism (the BAD) as a cure or fix. This government control or protectionism has created in the past an environment of retalitory tariffs, and conditions for war.

Tarriffs must be enforced (More government at tax payer expense), and those increase costs (both the enforcement of tariffs and the tariff itself) are just foisted on the public with increased prices. This will eventually ripple through the economy, until the ones who cannot pass on the increase prices are exporters of American goods. the exporters cannot pass the costs along because they must compete on foreign markets.

So as economist Thomas DiLorenzo writes, a tax on imports is really a burden on exports. the net result is everyone pays. American jobs are being lost because of our overly oppressive tax system.

Of course, the closer one gets to free trade helps all. Yes, jobs will be displaced, economies are not stagnant. But out of those displaced jobs new economic opportunities arise. The computer has made our nation highly efficient and productive, requiring fewer workers to produce things like cars, and computers. Division of labor and capitalism dictate that the winner is the capitalist who can produce goods at the lowest cost, and highest quality. Those who can't will be driven out of the market and the market will correct itself.

What we need is minimal government intervention and intrusion for the benefits of Adam Smith's invisible hand to be made clear. What you advocate is more/bigger government that protects the few at the cost of the many(all).

Part of the defintion of Nafta from wiki
NAFTA eliminated the majority of tariffs on products traded among the United States, Canada, and Mexico, and gradually phased out other tariffs over a 15-year period. Restrictions were to be removed from many categories, including motor vehicles, computers, textiles, and agriculture. The treaty also protects intellectual property rights (patents, copyrights, and trademarks), and outlines the removal of investment restrictions among the three countries. The treaty is trilateral in nature; the terms apply equally to all countries, in all areas except agriculture, in which stipulations, tariff reduction phase-out periods, and protection of selected industries, were negotiated on a bilateral basis. Provisions regarding worker and environmental protection were added later as a result of supplemental agreements signed in 1992.

Manufacturing is Booming, in China
If you listen to the people like this writer of such bilge, one would have to think America had been surrounded by Walls and no Trade with anyone else in the world, before NAFTA, of course.

NAFTA is the "Tearing down of the Wall" of the "protectionist" policies of the "isolated" Americans.

Here are the FACTS:
1. America has had Free Trade since George Washington was President.

2. Government had been limited to Government, not Negotiators, Intermediators, Businessmen.

3.Through Manufacturing America grew into the richest of all Nations of the world.

4.Manufacturing is so important to a Nation, that Germany's Manufacturing was the Target for destroying Nazi Germany's ability to continue fighting.

5.Manufacturing is the cause America has/had a Middle Class.

6. Tariffs (protectionism) was Installed into Law by the WILL of the RICH Manufacturers, to ELIMINATE COMPETITION from Abroad.

7. NOW that the American Manufacturers have all gone INTERNATIONAL CORPORATIONS, they do not liek Tariffs (protectionism) cause that makes the manufactured goods they now have made by CHEAP LABOR IN CHINA OR MEXICO more COSTLY to bring back into "protected" America and SELL BACK TO US CONSUMERS.
And is all we are to these profiteers, who once are the very ones who WANTED TARIFFS TO BEGIN WITH.

8. China's economy has one problem, booming growth all from the American Manufacturing transplanted from America to China, Mexico, Bangladesh.

9. The Businessmen in Government will not STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION cause it allows the labor force to increase, AND BRING DOWN LABOR COSTS IN "ONCE PROTECTIONIST" America.

10. Then we have to deal with writers of this sort of bull**** like Terry Paulson thinks we are too stupid to see through.



free trade vs. protectionism
Competition in labor markets has existed since societies first organized, only the scale and magnitude have changed.Whatever happened to the buggy whip, butter churn, or cutlass makers?
Talentscout and boomerbabe, you are free to start companies which manufacture toys, or shoes, or shuttlecocks for that matter. You may locate those companies in the U.S, and charge whatever you like for your products. If you believe Americans will pay the higher prices for American made goods, thus paying manufacturing workers the higher wages, go right ahead, I wish you luck in your endeavor.
When America began making and exporting jet planes or automobiles or x-ray machines; did you worry about the steamship makers in Liverpool, the wagon builders in Brazil, or the undertakers in Uganda? Change, competition for resources, and allocation of labor, capital, etc. are ALL inevitable. GROW UP and stop whining.

If anyone wants to see
Who is behind NAFTA, CAFTA, the WTO and such international business deals done by Governments and NOT Free Market Entrepenuers, then take a look at the Gunrunners of the 19th Century America.

You know, the ones who sold the Indians GUNS, and made a huge profit.

Not really caring if the guns were then turned on the Pilgrims crossing the Plains.

The real problem in America today, is our "represntatives" are actually Sales Agents for the International Business Community.

And YOU?
You are a CONSUMER!
You are a PEON

How much did globalists pay you Mr.T.P.?
Mr. Paulson, how much did globalists pay you to write this apology for the devil? Every year, there is a smaller percentage of Americans who can buy your cheap imported junk at China-Mart. Mr. slave, how much longer will it take for your owners to eliminate the American consumer altogether?

An eskimo kills a wolf by setting out frozen bloody meat with a sharp knife hidden in it. The wolf licks the bloody meat until he reaches the knife. Soon he is licking up his own blood. In the morning, the wolf lies dead by the bloody meat.

Maximizing net income at the expense of the host nation is like cancer or leeches. Anyone can see that the almighty dollar, lacking soul or morals, is bleeding America to death for profit. It will be the destruction of this nation.

Quit whining
ex-canuck writes: 12:38 PM
free trade vs. protectionism
Competition in labor markets has existed since societies first organized, only the scale and magnitude have changed.Whatever happened to the buggy whip, butter churn, or cutlass makers?
----------
ts:
Its sad you do not know
But you asked the right man who will TEACH YOU.
Those inventions get changed into an on going improvement of inventions, that CREATED MORE JOBS FOR AMERICANS.
Capiche?

It is sad some are still so uninformed as you are

When, in fact, the buggy was replaced by the automobile, the manufacturing base GREW.
Like it is in China today, and at one time here in America.

Manufacturing is BOOMING, in China



"Terry Paulson, PhD is a psychologist"
Mr. Paulson is not an economist. He is not even an international relations person. He is a psychologist and a columnist, paid to make the Robber Barons' deeds less objectionable to the victims of outsourcing and off-shoring, that is, US.

The uneducated Canadian writes:



Talentscout and boomerbabe, you are free to start companies which manufacture toys, or shoes, or shuttlecocks for that matter. You may locate those companies in the U.S, and charge whatever you like for your products.
-----
Well, the Federal, State, County and City Laws restricting this is so expensive that one can only pine for the good old days when America was FREE to TRADE, Barter, and operate some Business.

Now that is it under the CONTROL of the Businessmen running our Government, they have created so many rules, regulations, taxes, insurance, License Fees that the only ones now who can do that is the Super Rich men who own the Politicians who make and pass the Laws in their favor.

Sorry you did not understand how the Market Place works today under this new world order.

But hopefully my explanation will clear it all up for you.
(probably not, may be too stupid, or one of the profiteers yourself)






Rhe gunrunning Canadian writes:
If you believe Americans will pay the higher prices for American made goods, thus paying manufacturing workers the higher wages, go right ahead, I wish you luck in your endeavor.
When America began making and exporting jet planes or automobiles or x-ray machines; did you worry about the steamship makers in Liverpool, the wagon builders in Brazil, or the undertakers in Uganda? Change, competition for resources, and allocation of labor, capital, etc. are ALL inevitable. GROW UP and stop whining.
----------
He** No
I say let them alone to do it like Americans.
Well once upon a time that is.

If you are going to come and cry about it all, at least keep your tears off the posts to me, I am very sensitive for the sobbing and whining gunrunners like you present yourself to be.

If anyone is sensitive, as I am
For a sob story, full of whining, crying and foot stomping as this article is by Paulson, its heart breaking to read.

And I read it 4 times, so I am so broken up about his weeping over NAFTA, I must take off some time to go and dry my eyes and contemplate how really sad it all is.

Anymore of such articles with all the sobbing heart break in it displayed by Paulson, and it just may cause me a nervous break down.

I must avoid his articles in the future for my own sanity.

a call to end free trade
i believe free trade is too devisive. it should eliminated in all forms. if i lived in minnesota, instead of georgia, i would push my representatives to pass laws that prevent companies from foreign states, like georgia, from buying my state's assets. it's egregious. have you heard how many of good minnesotans who work for northwest will be out of a job through no fault of their own? like a 1000. also, i just know they're going to try something sneaky, like plant someone on the city council there in st. paul or something. even though i'm from georgia, i just know it'll happen. that's what people who are only driven by money and profits do.

i also heard that texas has more fortune 500 companies headquartered there than any other state. if any of those companies had tried to move out of my state, you can bet i'd be calling my representatives. that's destroying jobs, i'd have said. you can't let them do that. if a company can just up and move from one state to another, it just isn't fair. they just shouldn't let that happen.

and while we're on the subject of companies moving around, we need to talk about people. i ran into one of those dirty alabamans the other day (i should know how dirty they are; i grew up there). anyway, i'm seeing way too many of them nowadays. at some point you've just got to say "enough. no more. we're full." they're a strain on our infrastructure and all. have you heard about the water problems we've had lately? i'm just glad i got here first, when, you know, the problems hadn't really begun. not only that, but they're competing for our jobs, too. (apparently the economy in alabama isn't doing so hot, but is that my problem?) scoundrels. we ought to pass a law to keep them out.

Monopolies
Can only be obtained when Business and Government become Partners.
Just like it is in America today.

One just needs to understand the thinking of what it takes to not just make money, but to control it so conclusive that it is a monopoly.

All it takes to gain control over all Markets, Free Trade, Profits and Government is too Incorporate it all.

Course this is the vision of Karl Marx, and not Thomas Jefferson, George Washington or Samuel Adams.
But is is the vision of Communsits/Marxists. Lenists/Bankers of the Federal Reserve/ and even the President himself.

It got its foot hold into America when Old Monopoly seeking JP Morgan and Rockerfeller bought enough Politicians to create the laws to allow the Incorporation of Business and Government as we have today.
It took them years to gain this present monopoly through stealth, and not the Violent Revolution they supported in Russia, to gain what thye now have in America.

The complete control over business and government.
Incorporating the powers of government and money, to bring all free men under their control, just as they paid Lenin and the Communists to do in Russia.

This is what NAFTA is about, and the word games they play is seen when they actually have the gall to call it "Free Trade".
Its amusing to see how well it works on the uninformed American Public, but also distressing to watch my country die.
The death of Liberty is here and now, and all of us are under the control of these very arrogant men who think you and me are here to be their servants.

And they all are so much higher in intelligence and rights than you or I, cause thjey can manipulate the public today so easy, it is pathetic

Rehashing Bubba's claims
"10 million jobs have been created through NAFTA"

Yes, if you call aspirin/paracetamol tablets "jobs". Fair to say that sales of these would have risen by at least that much.

Figures often lie
Finley writes: 7:04 AM
95% Employed...
There haven't been too many job losses, given the emplyoment rates are at historical highs...the author is correct..jobs will and do change, whether people do or not...there was a time when 90% of everyone was an ag worker...those jobs no longer exist,and most standards of living are better because of it...
----------

We have 20 to 30 percent of the working force from Mexico in the United States today.

Most all the jobs being created in America can be found in two categories.
Government which employees close to 23 Million, and the Retail/Wholesale Sales, which is close to 22 Million.

In China, everyone is working, and no immigration.
In fact, China has so much power here with their new rise into the world market place, dominating it, we are in the process of building them a highway from Texas/Mexican border to Canada.

This is just a drop in the bucket of all that is happening to the working conditions for US Citizens.
Who are now in competition with the least paid workers all across the world.


talent scout's ignorance
Mr. Talent Scout: If you actually BELIEVE even half of the vile putrid nonsense you spew, then you are undoubtedly a product of American PUBLIC education, and studied little if any college level economics. How IS that french fry machine treating you?
Your lack of proper grammar reveals as much about you as your lack of knowledge regarding economics and resource allocation.
Wall street once housed tanneries and stables, since lost to "highest and best use" determination. Americans who made shoes now make computer software programs. It's called progress.
Those who cannot compete successfully will always cry out for protection, either as subsidies or tariff enforcement. These same people usually vote Democrat.

hmmmmm
Nafta is a very good thing, period. It is good to trade with the world. I can buy a product i want from another country such as a cd set of teaching me how to speak the malay lang. As my wife is from there. So why should i be keep from buying that product from Malaysia? Oh you want me to buy one from here in the USA if it is made? But you want me to pay how much for it? Oh i see, you want a tariff on that product so that i might not even be able to buy it anyway.

Goofiness...
The very same people who whine and cry because they think Haliburton got no-bid contracts in the war want Boeing to be competition free in making planes because it costs Americans jobs...Americans must be more competitive or they lose...we want protection because we can't, won't, or are uanble to compete?

This is rich
ex-canuck writes: 4:31 PM
talent scout's ignorance
Mr. Talent Scout: If you actually BELIEVE even half of the vile putrid nonsense you spew, then you are undoubtedly a product of American PUBLIC education, and studied little if any college level economics. How IS that french fry machine treating you?
blah blah blah..........
---------
Everything I said is the way it is.
Screw college economics.
Its why there are so many dimwits today.

If you believe what you say here, you are a complete moron, public educated or not.

talent scounts goes on and on and on....
Let's analyze a few of his claims:

TS:
"6. Tariffs (protectionism) was Installed into Law by the WILL of the RICH Manufacturers, to ELIMINATE COMPETITION from Abroad."

OK, is competition something that benefits the consumer?

TS:
"7. NOW that the American Manufacturers have all gone INTERNATIONAL CORPORATIONS, they do not liek Tariffs (protectionism) cause that makes the manufactured goods they now have made by CHEAP "LABOR IN CHINA OR MEXICO more COSTLY to bring back into "protected" America and SELL BACK TO US CONSUMERS."

OK, what is it? End protectionism? Or protect American jobs and promote protectionism?

Seems to me you have a problem with wealth envy.
Who has created more jobs....Bill Gates? Or the Federal Government. If we end protectionism, then all benefit...the filthy rich businessmen who make more profits and buy bigger and more expensive toys, and me the lowly consumer who gets to buy more of the cheap and reliable products.

TS
"And YOU? You are a CONSUMER! You are a PEON"

And you would think that when the average low income schmuck who can more easily afford new jeans for their growing todder because they were made with Chinese labor, that the PEON parents didn't benefit.....I am dumbstruck to think what kind of logic would actually appeal to your mind.

Who did more for Katrina victims? Wallmart? Or the government?

TS:
"Monopolies
Can only be obtained when Business and Government become Partners. Just like it is in America today."

And so your solution is for what? To increase protectionism, and government regulation. Go figure.

This is real ignorance here
mr_sparky writes: 4:52 PM
hmmmmm
Nafta is a very good thing, period. It is good to trade with the world. I can buy a product i want from another country such as a cd set of teaching me how to speak the malay lang.
--------
You probably think Trade with foreign Nations was invented with NAFTA.
It makes it difficult to get it through heads so thick that believe that, its a good thing I am a patient man.

Try to understand the world has had world trade since the days of Marco Polo.
Then read up on the 16th Century Explorers.
All were into world trade way way way back then.

May be news to some of you, but even the Public Schools teach this much history.
Stop listening to the morons like the ex-cannuck, they really believe world trade began and ends with NAFTA.

Amusing though it be, it has gained many converts among us for the dumbing down of Americans, seriously infected with his ignorance.

gospelmidi1 writes
"How much did globalists pay you Mr.T.P.?
Mr. Paulson, how much did globalists pay you to write this apology for the devil? Every year, there is a smaller percentage of Americans who can buy your cheap imported junk at China-Mart. Mr. slave, how much longer will it take for your owners to eliminate the American consumer altogether?"

What now? I see the word "gospel" and think "Christian?"...but hope to God that as a Christian they wouldn't be so xenophobic as to demonize someone who supports free trade.

I see you have ill will against wall mart. So I ask again....who did more for Katrina victims....the government? Or China-mart.

When the next disaster comes your way (Solar Flares wiping out our entire power grid???) ...you may be thanking the Lord of all resources that he developed a system of economics where people can have jobs, and goods and services and quickly be distributed before starvation, and disease sets in.

I thank God for Wallmart, capitalism, and its ability to most efficiently organize resources goods, and services for the benefit of all.

Ain't nothing wrong with Wallmart...I shop there myself, proudly.

Hello archie
6:45 PM

TS:
"6. Tariffs (protectionism) was Installed into Law by the WILL of the RICH Manufacturers, to ELIMINATE COMPETITION from Abroad."

heresyarch writes:
OK, is competition something that benefits the consumer?
------
ts:
Of course, and it shows how little you know if you think otherwise.
You from Canada too archie?


TS:
"7. NOW that the American Manufacturers have all gone INTERNATIONAL CORPORATIONS, they do not liek Tariffs (protectionism) cause that makes the manufactured goods they now have made by CHEAP "LABOR IN CHINA OR MEXICO more COSTLY to bring back into "protected" America and SELL BACK TO US CONSUMERS."
heresyarch writes:
OK, what is it? End protectionism? Or protect American jobs and promote protectionism?
--------
ts:
First off Tariffs were designed to pay the costs of Government.
I do not have the time to teach American History, at the moment.
Secondly:
Tariffs were desired in the 1890's to the 1930's to protect manufacturing in America, keeping out lower priced goods, to the benefit of the rich manufacturers.
None of it was for the working man, except it relieved some of the yearly taxes that Congress extracted, raising the money off imports instead of the direct taxes on citizens back then.





Talent Scout writes...
This is real ignorance here

"You probably think Trade with foreign Nations was invented with NAFTA."

Again confusing the "perfect" with the "good".

You are dismayed at the loss of manufacturing jobs? What do you want our government to do about it?

End NAFTA which means increase tariffs. That is your solution. tell me where I am wrong.

OK its settled then....
TS
"Tariffs were desired in the 1890's to the 1930's to protect manufacturing in America, keeping out lower priced goods, to the benefit of the rich manufacturers.
None of it was for the working man, except it relieved some of the yearly taxes that Congress extracted, raising the money off imports instead of the direct taxes on citizens back then."

NAFTA ends tariffs, and promotes competition.

Geez. From wiki

"NAFTA eliminated the majority of tariffs on products traded among the United States, Canada, and Mexico, and gradually phased out other tariffs over a 15-year period."

Benefits the working man, no?

archie writes:

Seems to me you have a problem with wealth envy.
Who has created more jobs....Bill Gates? Or the Federal Government. If we end protectionism, then all benefit...the filthy rich businessmen who make more profits and buy bigger and more expensive toys, and me the lowly consumer who gets to buy more of the cheap and reliable products.
---------
ts:
Wrong

TS
"And YOU? You are a CONSUMER! You are a PEON"

archie says:
And you would think that when the average low income schmuck who can more easily afford new jeans for their growing todder because they were made with Chinese labor, that the PEON parents didn't benefit.....I am dumbstruck to think what kind of logic would actually appeal to your mind.
-------

ts:
How moronic can ya get archie?
You really believe we end up with lower prices for imported goods with the rising cots of food, fuel, housing, clothing and utilities?
Have you never considered what inflation is doing to the buying power of the Fiat paper Federal Reserve Notes?
When you talk of prices, you really need to understand these factor's too.


archie writes:
Who did more for Katrina victims? Wallmart? Or the government?
----
ts:
Huh? You don't know?
Well, do not know what to say, so will let you think as you wish arch.


TS:
"Monopolies
Can only be obtained when Business and Government become Partners. Just like it is in America today."

archie writes:
And so your solution is for what? To increase protectionism, and government regulation. Go figure.
-------
ts:
My solution is to study how it was done for our first two hundred years, and do it again without all the lobbyists involved.

I will explain this more KNOWING you will not understand it all yet.
When I get back to the computer later this evening.
Go read some history while I am gone arch.

Talent scount theorizes....
"You really believe we end up with lower prices for imported goods with the rising cots of food, fuel, housing, clothing and utilities?"
Have you never considered what inflation is doing to the buying power of the Fiat paper Federal Reserve Notes?
When you talk of prices, you really need to understand these factor's too."


OK...when I was a young lad of 13 in the 70's, I remember having to pay about $20 for a pair of LEvi jeans. I am buying jeans for my kids at Walmart for less than that....$12 on my last visit there!!! How is that possible with inflated federal reserve notes? Solution, me the PEON consumer is benefitting from Walmart.

The fact is, yes the fed is inflating and making their fiat currency worthless....which means that yes, if the fed didn't do that, instead of $12, I might have paid $2 ..but still, I would rather pay $12 than $20 dollars.


As to the rest of your diatribe, almost nothing follows coherently or logically. I don't know if you support government intervention, or are against government intervention. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. I am beginning to write you off as a senile old crank who just doesn't like to lose an argument.

Thank you ExCanuck and HeresyArch
The economic illiteracy of "talent" scout never ceases to amaze me. And the time he has to spout it forth!

Still, I suppose losing a job to a Canadian (because he's better educated, more productive, less tribal, etc etc etc) can do that to you.

Poor scout.

Tariffs were NEVER for the working man
.
TS
"Tariffs were desired in the 1890's to the 1930's to protect manufacturing in America, keeping out lower priced goods, to the benefit of the rich manufacturers.
None of it was for the working man, except it relieved some of the yearly taxes that Congress extracted, raising the money off imports instead of the direct taxes on citizens back then."
-----------


heresyarch writes: 7:03 PM
OK its settled then...
NAFTA ends tariffs, and promotes competition.

Geez. From wiki
--------
ts:
Right
But not to the benefit of Working Americans.
All to the benefit of the Corporations.
See arch, without Tariffs, this means the American Worker is in competition with the Workers in Mexico(the ones not here) or China, whatever.
The reason this is unfair to American Workers is cause we cannot live off the same wages they get paid in Mexico.

But this is what NAFTA is intending to do, equalize the Americans Standard to living to the peon wages of Mexico.
And of course people who are making big moeny off this scam on America, are going to defend it.
They do not care what happens to the American Workers to begin with

------
heresyarch writes: 7:03 PM
OK its settled then...

"NAFTA eliminated the majority of tariffs on products traded among the United States, Canada, and Mexico, and gradually phased out other tariffs over a 15-year period."




Benefits the working man, no?

---------
How?
Lower prices mean nothing when the FRN's are losing their buying power through inflation.

It is not a benefit for American workers to pay the costs of living here in America, but receiving the pay of a Mexican peon

How can you call that a benefit for American workers arch?

nafta
wasn't the nafta treaty (later only an agreement due to less than 2/3 supporting votes) touted by the supporters as a means of stopping illegal entry into the country from mexico because factories would be built there within a 20 mile zone next to the border?
hey, not only did it not work, but the workers that were attracted by the jobs and couldn't get one were pointed towards estados unidos for work.

free trade is not necessarily fair trade.

i will now enroll in diversity rehab after my comments.

adios,
Jarvey (formerly Harvey)
Lancaster, Mexifornia
dial 1 for english
p.s. my free spanish lessons in the walmart aisles is coming along great. maybe i could cut grass, i mean lawns in mexico.

I smell a skunk, Mellor must be close by
Archie writes:
OK...when I was a young lad of 13 in the 70's, I remember having to pay about $20 for a pair of LEvi jeans. I am buying jeans for my kids at Walmart for less than that....$12 on my last visit there!!! How is that possible with inflated federal reserve notes? Solution, me the PEON consumer is benefitting from Walmart.

The fact is, yes the fed is inflating and making their fiat currency worthless....which means that yes, if the fed didn't do that, instead of $12, I might have paid $2 ..but still, I would rather pay $12 than $20 dollars.
-----------
ts:
Well, time for another history lesson for you archie.
When you were a kid your mother and father were not both working to pay all the costs of today.
Just dad needed to work, and could afford to meet the costs of living and provide for some leisure expenditures.
NAFTA sucks big time

--------
Poor archie, nows falls into spit and foam at me for my good intentions to teach him something.

archie wtites:
As to the rest of your diatribe, almost nothing follows coherently or logically. I don't know if you support government intervention, or are against government intervention. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. I am beginning to write you off as a senile old crank who just doesn't like to lose an argument.
-------
ts:
If you could chew gum and walk at the same time, it would help you understand this subject is no limited to your dinky little mind and take on it all.
Cheer up arch, I am here to aide you in your ignorance

hmmmmm
No talent screw ball, i don,t believe nafta is about world trade, but with trade with Mexico, and Canada. And i do think Nafta is good for the US and think the US needs free trade agreements with Colombia, and one with Malaysia that is in talks. And all around the world. Increase world trade is very good for all.

Thanks Mellor...
and this illiteracy is coming from the quote conservative side of the political spectrum.

Talent scout seems utterly brainwashed and driven by his fear of the power elite (especially the NWO), that I think he is utterly conflicted...those damned elite who set up protectionism to prevent competition in the past are now the damned elite who want to compete. Anything that benefits the elite must come at the cost of the poor schmuck in TS's world.

Bogus. Economics, when there is no coercion is win-win condition of life. I part with my hard-earned dollars because I value this or that good from this or that manufacturer more. The wealthy business man wins in he values my dollars. I win because I value his goods. We live in total harmony.

Economics 101 for Talent Scout. I recommend for him Thomas Sowell's "Basic Economics".


repair, education?
repair throw away products?
dude, you must get alot of hate mail.

adios,
Harvey
Lancaster, Greater Aztlan
viva la raza
reconquista
drinko de mayo (tse dung)
ceasar chavez holiday for govt. workers
dial 1 for english

talent scout's obtuseness
MellorSJ2-thank you for your kind words.
However I rather doubt I took a job away from the likes of talent scout, as I run a small hedge fund. Investment decisions, deal management and evaluation of return potential require rationality and self-discipline, qualities not often found in incoherent muddled-brain liberal Democrats or black-helicopter -fearing CFR conspiracy paranoids.
As far as MY citizenship, I was born with dual; I CHOSE America for freedom and economic potential concerns.

Talent scout with this gem:
AN: "Benefits the working man, no?"

"How?
Lower prices mean nothing when the FRN's are losing their buying power through inflation."

Geez. Let's see...in Talent Scout's world lets have the worst of both worlds. Let have both higher prices (less purchasing power) due to inflation....and let's have even higher costs due to protectionism.....a double whammy.

Now instead of my $12 jeans I buy TODAY for my kids, I can get 70's $20 inflation adjusted jeans....say maybe $50.

You are a real genius there, TS.

The most moronic of all arguments
Is from the morons here who think NAFTA is "free trade".
Morons will be morons though, and we just have to accept this fact of life.

Doing away with NAFTA and all such GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION INTO FREE MARKETS is what gives us Free Trade, where NAFTA has given us INCREASED GOVERNMENT.

And the morons here think it the opposite of what it all really is.

Heresyarch writes
"and this illiteracy is coming from the quote conservative side of the political spectrum."

Time was, when one voted for the Repubs because they understood economics. Holding one's nose at the rest of their policies.

Now we have both parties promoting protectionism and bone-headed economics, with the likes of No Talent on the "conservative side." It's a sad day.

Talent Scout again confusing "perfect"
with the "good". We must destroy the "good" with the "bad" because its isn't "perfect".

TS: The most moronic of all arguments
Is from the morons here who think NAFTA is "free trade".

Once again, from wiki:

Part of the defintion of Nafta from wiki
NAFTA eliminated the majority of tariffs on products traded among the United States, Canada, and Mexico, and gradually phased out other tariffs over a 15-year period. Restrictions were to be removed from many categories, including motor vehicles, computers, textiles, and agriculture. The treaty also protects intellectual property rights (patents, copyrights, and trademarks), and outlines the removal of investment restrictions among the three countries. The treaty is trilateral in nature; the terms apply equally to all countries, in all areas except agriculture, in which stipulations, tariff reduction phase-out periods, and protection of selected industries, were negotiated on a bilateral basis. Provisions regarding worker and environmental protection were added later as a result of supplemental agreements signed in 1992.

What does Talent Scout propose?

Well, I am out of here....
Talent Scout's CFR armed black helicopters are flying overhead, and I gotta get home for homeschooling my children.

ex-Canuck
"However I rather doubt I took a job away from the likes of talent scout, as I run a small hedge fund."

I chose a Canadian because I din't want to inflame the "Build a Wall" nutcases. You can construct whole thoughts. That leaves No Talent out of the running.

"Investment decisions, deal management and evaluation of return potential require rationality and self-discipline, qualities not often found in incoherent muddled-brain liberal Democrats or black-helicopter -fearing CFR conspiracy paranoids."

And our friend No Talent goes for the latter.

"As far as MY citizenship, I was born with dual; I CHOSE America for freedom and economic potential concerns."

I, too, chose to be an American. For exactly these reasons. Today, I'm afraid, it's something of an embarrassment....

Glad I got all you morons together
Easier to deal with this way
"

heresyarch writes:
Geez. Let's see...in Talent Scout's world lets have the worst of both worlds. Let have both higher prices (less purchasing power) due to inflation....and let's have even higher costs due to protectionism.....a double whammy.
--------
ts:
No, in my world the American worker is not expected to pay the high cost of living in America on Mexican wages.
This is what the Corporations want.
Not me, and all working Americans.

Why would you think we should compete for the wages of a Mexican peon archie?
I do not see any reason that is good for any working American.

-------

heresyarch writes:
Now instead of my $12 jeans I buy TODAY for my kids, I can get 70's $20 inflation adjusted jeans....say maybe $50.
--------
ts:
I can see the subject is over your head arch.
You wanna try and back up your statements?
Lets see you try and do that archie, and compare the cost of levis in the 1970's and the wages paid back then in relation to both the quality and price today, v. the wages and inflation.

What cost $20.00 in 1970 would cost $111.94 in 2007.
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

What wages are being paid in Bangladesh to make the levis today(or China, wherever they have them made today)

Why do you think it is good to place the American worker in competition with the workers of the third world archie?

Now according to the inflation calculator, our wages should be 111.94 per hour to keep up with the ones who made 20 an hour in 1970.
I know this may be too much for you to digest, but think about it arch, and see how many are making 111.94 an hour today.
------
archie writes:

You are a real genius there, TS.
--------
ts:
Thanks arch, I knew you would wake up, if I just kept patience and taught you something.
I appreciate my talents being recognized, even if it comes reluctantly from my usual detractors.

Having lost the argument
archie begins his only recourse, lol.
Its really funny to see how often archie must retreat into his hole and run away from me calling out names as he runs lickety split for home.

-----------
heresyarch writes: 8:37 PM
Well, I am out of here....
Talent Scout's CFR armed black helicopters are flying overhead, and I gotta get home for homeschooling my children
----------

ts:
They are coming to take you away arch, now sing it often and loud, just so you can post something but what the subject is about.
I understand though arch, you have nothing but this left, and use it often.
Interesting subject too, black helicopters, lol.

http://www.google.com/search?q=black+helicopters+are+real&i e=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client =firefox-a


Black helicopter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Real black helicopters do exist. Some of them are flown by units of the Army National Guard and are actually black (not dark olive or chocolate brown) when ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_helicopters - 35k - Cached - Similar pages
disinformation | black helicopters come in all shapes and colors

The Black Helicopters Are Real! This Shadow article (issue #38, 1996) is by the ever vigilant and intrepid Bill Weinberg, writes of how the militia fears of ...
http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id458/pg1/inde x.html - 49k - Cached - Similar pages


Black Helicopters Are For Real
Yes, we do get a lot of calls about the "black helicopters." Here in Florida, for example, several farmers have complained to their members of Congress that ...
http://www.shout.net/~bigred/BlackHelos.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages


SHADOW 38 THE BLACK HELICOPTERS ARE REAL!
All those sightings of mysterious unmarked black helicopters, for instance, are not hallucinations. The black helicopters are real. ...
mediafilter.org/mff/s38/S38.BlkHelicopter.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages


LOOK OUT ARCHIE! here they come

Wiki or Greenspan?
heresyarch writes: 8:36 PM
Talent Scout again confusing "perfect"
with the "good". We must destroy the "good" with the "bad" because its isn't "perfect".

TS: The most moronic of all arguments
Is from the morons here who think NAFTA is "free trade".

Once again, from wiki:

Part of the defintion of Nafta from wiki....blah blah blah

-------
If you want the truth, go to the men best qualified to tell you what NAFTA is.
You are aware of Alan Greenspans credentials I hope.
From the Congressional Record, not the black helicopters crews, that are really really out there.......somewhere arch.


Mr. GREENSPAN. I think you have to define what you mean by a ''free market.'' If you have a fiat currency, which is what everyone has in the world--

Dr. PAUL. That is not free market.

Mr. GREENSPAN. That is not free market.

Here is the basis of why we now have this rape of America called NAFTA.

We do not have anything CLOSE TO FREE MARKETS IN AMERICA

Stick it moron
mr_sparky writes:
hmmmmm
No talent screw ball, i don,t believe nafta is about world trade, but with trade with Mexico, and Canada. blah blah blah........
----------
I do not care what you think
There is more than just NAFTA that is taking free trade away from Americans.

moron


The U.S. trade strategy is to pursue muliple market-opening initiatives on a global, regional and bilateral basis, establishing models of success that can be used throughout all negotiations.


Global


Regional


Bilateral
Selection WTO Home

Selection FTAA
Selection ASEAN Initiative
Selection NAFTA
Selection MEFTA
Selection APEC
Selection CAFTA-DR

Selection Australia FTA
Selection Bahrain FTA
Selection Chile FTA
Selection Colombia Free Trade Agreement
Selection Israel FTA
Selection Jordan FTA
Selection KORUS FTA
Selection Malaysia FTA
Selection Morocco FTA
Selection Oman FTA
Selection Panama TPA
Selection Peru TPA
Selection Malaysia FTA
Selection Singapore FTA
Selection SACU FTA
Selection Bilateral Investment Treaties (BITs)
Selection Trade and Investment Framework Agreements (TIFAs)

Nafta is not free trade1
How many neo-conservatives does it take to screw in a light bulb?

None, they prefer to sit in their caves in the dark.

NAFTA, CAFTA, SHAFT-YA has nothing at all to do with free trade. as managed trade is not free trade. SOme great articles by the Foundation for economic freedom has shown.

http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid =5031

Managed trade is socialism, no if's and's, or buts! ALso governments dont trade with each other, people in diffferent nations trade with each other. FREE trade does not require treaties that are over 1000 pages long! Tribunals, laws, regularion etc. So its all a farce, like the new republicans. Fraud!

Welcome to the sliding slope to the North American UNION of soviet socialist republics

Personal negative effects of NAFTA
In late September (or maybe early October) 1997, I received approval of my I-140--and found that my immigration attorney had misfiled me as EB-3 rather than EB-2. At that time, the H1-b cap for FY 1998 had already been capped-out, and I worked for an employer who I would have to bug repeatedly (to the point of actually getting in the way of job performance) to actually change from TN-1 to H1-b

For this India-born Hindu-convert-to-Christianity (born-again), the effect was a disaster--even to the point of making a marital search unworkable:
(1) Spouse neither American nor Canadian, not in North America (most compatible)-->see my earlier post on NAFTA-clueless imm officials, as it also likely applies to Consular Officials
(2) Canadian spouse-->excuse me, but if I have to go through the immigration headaches anyway, I'd at least like cultural compatibility as well as spiritual (among other reasons)
(3) spouse with US temp visa->spouse would need to maintain that status/visa, much potential for disaster
(4) spouse with US Green Card->red-flag, also would be unable to renew the TN-1 (and thus unable to work after it expired)->irrecoverable disaster
(5) US citizen spouse->immigration-wise, this would have been favourable, but cultural issue basically similar to Canadian

Fear
If a job is so simple to perform that a "peon" can perform it acceptably in a short amount of time, I can see where one holding one of those jobs would fear the "peons"...then, after it shakes out, one can experience fullfillment doing something more consistent with his talent...

Critical but undiscussed detail
I noted that none of the responses (including mine) so far mentioned a critical detail about NAFTA--actually, about its precursor Canada-US Free Trade Pact.

This pact was foisted upon Canada by a Prime Minister who revealed himself to be a quisling only two years later (through his attempt to foist Mooch Lake Accord)!

No-Talent Scout evades....
So I will answer some of my questions for him where I can:

I asked Talent Scout what he proposes...protectionism? Or Free trade? All I hear is a lot of hot air, but on this particular issue all I hear are birds chirping.

I asked who has provided more jobs the US....Bill Gates or the Federal government. I would guess TS might say the Federal government because of its scope and size, but the Federal Government doesn't provide anything it doesn't first steal, so the Federal government arguably because of its size, lack of efficiency, and lack of profit motivation probably provides a net loss of jobs to the economy. TS can review Bastiat if he wants to learn something about things seen and not seen. Bill Gates and Boeing, two of Seattle's biggest employers are responsible for the wealth in Seattle.

TS writes:
"What cost $20.00 in 1970 would cost $111.94 in 2007.
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi"

And thereby you have only helped to prove my argument...saying I should be paying $112 when I pay 1/10th is a benefit to the American consumer.
So, how is it I just paid $12 for jeans for my kids at Walmart, genius, that should've cost me (if made in the USA), 111.94?? If you return to a quality argument, my children routinely outgrow their clothes before they are even close to being worn out. Even my next child in line out grows the hand me downs before they are worn out. I was just remarking that my youngest is wearing my oldest's Walmart PJs tonight to bed.....that makes those PJs 4 years old and a few hundred wash cycles used! Imagine that.

I was at Walmart today pricing clothes with you in mind...slacks for $12, shorts for $8, jeans for $12. I just thank God for Walmart and free trade who counters the increase costs I would otherwise have to pay.

Absolutely Correct...
Well-said, Mr. Hearsyarch...

I see No Talent
--completely outgunned--has fled.

Let's hope he took the other protectionist with him.

Talent Scout
Let's all ignore Talent Scout. He's inpenetrably obtuse.

I took advanced economics as part of my MBA program. The evidence is clear: free trade is good for Americans and America. It creates more jobs than it eliminates and it improves quality of life for the vast majority.

"Creative destruction" is the principle overlooked by the protectionists. In their misplaced compassion for those few harmed by free-trade, they would cause deprivation and misery for everyone. They don't understand free markets. Or worse yet, they have been inculcated with Marxism. They think of themselves as the defenders of the poor and crusaders against the reckless greed of capitalism. It's hard to talk to zealots.

Steve @ 00:55 wrote
"The evidence is clear: free trade is good for Americans and America".

Under which NAFTA is not free trade; try bringing a vehicle from Canada into US (or the reverse)--the difficulties of doing that will drive the fact home.

Plus
The fact than none of you looked at it from Canadian perspective shows your true colours on this issue.

Please join NUMBERSUSA !
Dear Terry, You make good points but I think that you also shoul dwrite about the direction that Bush has pushed the US with his signing of the SPP. It is one thing for Americans to allow for shifting their production to Mexico , but it is another thing for Mexico to use the US as a relief valve for its excess population ! Show some guts and write about this .
We have in the US an underclass disproportionately made up of blacks and latinos.
They in turn are pushed out of jobs by legal and illegal immigrants. Now, I have heard this stroy many times that Americans will not take the jobs that illegals take. Well, Terry, that is because those jobs do not pay a market wage.
Terry, economics 101. Now, the other side of this is that if these low and medium skilled jobs will have high wages , then the business wil have to find an alternate solution such as automation. Now, I hope yopu see how much damage is being caused to the American economy with both legal and illegal immigration.
As far as Mexico is concerned, the damage is greater bceause by using the US as a relief valve for its excess population, they do not make the necessary market and structural reforms which are required. They remain the corrupt neighor that basically one party rule for 90 years has given them.

Paulson used a one-issue argument
Basing entire article on the issue of protectionism.

Unfortunately, NAFTA (and its base-treaty, Canada-US Free Trade Pact of 1988) ran into more issues rightaway when a new visa type (TC-1, morphed to TN-1) was designed--in a rather ham-handed way. Even further damage was done by the fact that US Immigration (and Consular) officials were never trained on NAFTA; the time I ran into the one at Hartsfield was SIX YEARS INTO NAFTA--plenty of time for the officials to have been trained. When Mexico was invited (and the pact morphed to NAFTA), a new visa type (TN-2) for Mexican professionals was introduced.

(Note: vast majority of Mexicans who have entered US since 1993 would NOT qualify for TN-2, even without a cap--6,500--on it).

And (as I mentioned earlier) the original Free Trade Pact was foisted (like the Gouge-and-Shaft-Tax) on the nation by Mulroney (treaty before, GST after the Meech Lake--termed by Western Canadians as "Mooch Lake" due to the accord being essentially a giveaway-of-store to grossly-underperforming Quebec, and which unequivocally constituted an act of high treason).

Had it been simply a trade pact (it wasn't/isn't, as it impinged on immigration issues), Paulson's article may have been valid--but due to how much he ignored, his article is only good for the bin!

Joseph writes:
"We have in the US an underclass disproportionately made up of blacks and latinos."

Sigh. We are consistently told by our government that these migrant workers are doing jobs that Americans will not or cannot do.

The "underclass" disproportionately made up of blacks and latinos is purely cultural, and a sociological effect that has been created ex-nihilo by the tyranny of good intentions of government.

Who made a society of fatherless families where it became "profitable" to have children out of wedlock? the Government. In their infinite wisdom, and out of political expediency of "helping" those in poverty, and the tyranny of "good intentions", they created this "underclass" who doesn't value hard work, and working your way out of poverty. And likewise, the massive infiltration of "guest workers", LOL, come for the freebies as well. Usually its only the "left" who can't comprehend this basic result of Economics, but increasingly we see this on the "right" as in Talentless Scout's case.

I have news for all the quote bleeding heart "conservatives", the government is almost the sole source of all our economic woes. Eliminate the freebies, and tell people to get off their "collective" arses, and things will indeed improve. Economist Dr. Williams points out, if you want to get out of poverty, get and keep a job. Eventually things will get better. He's right, and I myself, my life story is anecdotal evidence of it.

to clarify
heresyarch:

You made some crank comments . I am not sure whether they were aimed at my post ? That government programs encourage or at least do not discourage this type of behaviour which leads to an underclass is common knowledge. Allowing millions of legal and illegal immigrants into the country provides more competition for low and medium skilled jobs thereby forcing down the wage levels. We need to remove the illegal immigrants and place a moratorium on legal immigration to tighten up the labor market. This is the only way we can get the underclass to actualy start working. Like your reference to Dr. Williams, only work can break this cycle of poverty/destitution. If we continue to allow the invasion of illegals and legals, then we will have a cheaper workforce but at the same time we will be supporting the underclass thru taxes: local,property, and income taxes. Also remember, once the illegal immigrants have legal status, they too take every advantage of social services available.

Joseph....
My major point is anyone who has no short supply of work ethic, can and will get out of poverty. The *federal* Government should just get out of the way, first and foremost by dropping our overly oppressive tax rates funding this behemoth, second by eliminating freebies and finally to get out of what should be local education.

In the bible, the Israelites complained about the oppressive tax rates of pharaoh.....20%.

Oh, how I long and pine for the days of pharaoh.


oh.....
And along with the drop of tax rates, the government has to be cut in scope and size....unlike the Bush administration who thinks they can fund wars, expand entitlements like no tomorrow, and create general havoc, all while cutting taxes.

How is this thread still going?
I had thought my little Canadian history tidbits would have indecently buried it by now.

Svpallava speaks truth!
I lived in a place called North Tonawanda, New York. Ya, big deal so what? Well N.T. is right between Buffalo N.Y. and Niagara Falls N.Y.. This means I could go to the Niagara River and Look right at Canada! Now I worked, at the time, in a store in town and Canadians came to this store to shop. (You see at one point the dollar was worth $.56 more than the Loony, not so today.) Point is, they did complain about the harm NAFTA was doing to them and I left that job in 1999. The question they asked was simple, NAFTA is “FREE” to whom?
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