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Sunday, June 21, 2009
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Tobacco Control and Thought Control
by Steve Chapman
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The great judge Learned Hand once said, "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right." If so, the tobacco regulation bill recently passed by Congress indicates that the spirit of liberty is even scarcer than usual in the halls of government.

What motivates advocates of stricter tobacco regulation is the unassailable assurance that they are not only completely right but that their opponents are a) wrong and b) evil. This invigorating certitude makes it possible to justify almost anything that punishes cigarette companies, even if it does no actual good -- or does actual harm.

One of the main purposes of the new law is to reduce the number of smokers in the name of improving "public health." This is a skillful use of language to confuse rather than enlighten.

An individual decision to take up cigarettes is a private event, not a public one, and its health effects are almost entirely confined to the individual making the choice. Swine flu warrants government intervention because it is transmitted to people without their consent. Not so with tobacco addiction.

That's not the only Orwellian touch in this measure. It is called the "Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act," which raises the obvious question: What does "family" have to do with it? Answer: nothing, but doesn't it sound sweet?

Like many intrusive government actions, this law is supposed to protect children. That's the pretext for telling tobacco companies, in exhaustive detail, how and where they can communicate with consumers, actual and potential -- allegedly to prevent the contamination of young minds.

So: Cigarette makers are forbidden to use color in ads in any publication whose readership is less than 85 percent adult. They are barred from using music in audio ads. They are not allowed to use pictures in video ads. They may not put product names on race cars, lighters, caps or T-shirts. From all this, you almost forget the fleeting passage in the Constitution that says "Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech."

When it gets in a mood to regulate, Congress doesn't like to trouble itself with nuisances like the First Amendment. In 2001, the Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional for Massachusetts to ban outdoor ads within 1,000 feet of any schools and playgrounds. So what does this law do? It bans outdoor ads within 1,000 feet of schools and playgrounds.

The court said the Massachusetts law was intolerable because it choked off communication about a legal activity. "In some geographical areas," complained Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, "these regulations would constitute nearly a complete ban on the communication of truthful information about smokeless tobacco and cigars to adult consumers."

But to anti-smoking zealots, that effect is not a bug but a feature. The only problem they have with imposing "nearly a complete ban" is the "nearly" part.

The crackdown on magazine ads is supposed to foil a dastardly plot to enslave middle-schoolers to lifelong nicotine addiction. In the 1998 legal settlement between states and the tobacco industry, cigarette makers agreed not to target adolescents in their advertising. But since then, reports the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, tobacco companies have sharply increased outlays on marketing efforts "that reach and influence kids."

If the point was to recruit new smokers, they've wasted their money. Students in middle school and high school are 44 percent less likely to try cigarettes today than they were in 1998. Only 6.4 percent of teens smoke every day, less than half as many as before.

The Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids says "cigarettes that are the most popular among kids are those that are also heavily advertised." But that doesn't prove advertising causes teens to take up the habit. It only indicates advertising may affect the brand preference of those who already smoke.

Corporate marketing doesn't explain very much about teen substance abuse. There are as many kids who use marijuana once a month or more as there are who smoke cigarettes that often. When was the last time you saw an ad for cannabis?

Punishing tobacco companies, which provide a legal product that consumers want, may not achieve anything in terms of reducing teen smoking or improving health. But in that case, sponsors may take satisfaction in the sheer pleasure of inflicting that punishment. Rest assured, they will.

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Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Pharmaceutical nicotine
The insane amount of money spent by the pharmaceutical companies marketing their own brand of nicotine may far surpass the money spent by big tobacco, and yet the government sees nothing wrong with this. Imagine AA having an alcohol replacement therapy, that product being alcohol. The pharmaceutical ads bombard people of all age groups 24/7 on television for prescriptions that people can't even purchase without a doctor. And big pharma's brand is far costlier than the natural product, thus the marketing scheme to make smoking an evil thing and using children as a ploy. The result, smoking bans that kill small business and insane taxing of a minority population to pay for health care bills, etc. What a scam!

Who cares
Cigs should be taxed.

What is the point of this article?

If advertising doesn't affect sales
what is the point of any advertising at all?

What happens
when there are no more smokers in the USA?
Where will the states and the feds get the money to replace the lost tax revenue?

For all you big government advocates, don't worry. They WILL find a replacement source. Its all about control, folks. This is just one of many more to come.
You are too stupid to make your own decisions. You must have "the gubmit" take care of you. Its for your own good, doncha know?

The wrong direction
The pres, who so dearly wants everything under his control is clearly wrong headed in this issue as in most. He is not addressing the real problem. Health. Well, if he wants to fund the health care program, why not do it by making those who make the health care cost so much - those who, by their choices need to use the health care system - smokers and drinkers.

Doesn't big tobacco
contribute largely to the GOP?

Just like all the car dealerships that were shut down by the new government. Only the ones who donated to the GOP were forced to close.

Just like all the taxpayer funded "community help" programs clownmessiah is ushering in. They all are tied to the dem/socialist party.

This is a naked power grab. This is the demsocialists using our taxes to empower the government to destroy our two party system.

In short, this is tyranny.

Costs
I don't smoke or drink, and I still use a doctor...

regulations are not new
THe FDA control of cigarettes will change things -- but I don't get why so many conervatives want a hands off policy for tobacco, but a very hands on policy for porn, drugs and FCC radio conrol. Our regulations are so strong that effectively also prevent medical competition.

FeargalX

Since you don't get why conservatives want a hands off policy for tobacco but not porn, drugs, and FCC, I will explain.

Conservatives believe its fine for Government to regulate tobacco for teens. They also beleive its fine for Government to regulate porn for teens, drugs for teens, alcohol for teens. Why? Because they are not yet experienced and mature enough to make a good decisions concerning its use.

Liberals on the other hand, want the government to regulate tobacco for adults and not regulate alochol, porn and frequently drugs for teens.

So we see Conservatives object to regulations when they impose on personal freedoms, but do not object to regulations that protect those most vulnerable among us who are unable to make and informed decision.

Its really a matter of common sense.


Over reaching FDA

This week the FDA announced it may classify Cheerios as drug and thus impose regulations on the breakfast cereal.

This as a result of Cheerios claim ths eating the popular breakfast cereal may result in a reduction of Colesteral by as much as 10%

If the claim is true or false matters not.
That is a mater for the Fair Trade Commission.

What is troubling is the reasoning behind the FDA decision. The FDA claims since the cereal is making a claim that normally is make by a precription drug, they have the right to classifiy it as a drug.

Imagine that. Apple producers claim apples are high in anti-oxidants and as a result eating apples will reduce cell damage and chances of cancer.

Will the FDA soon classify Apples as a drug for their health claims?

Liberals support over-reaching government.

By this logic, then...
...I would assume you just as vehemently oppose Marijuana Prohibition, but something tells me that's not the case...

So according to Joel-De Oppresso Liber,


If someone wears perfume that may give another an Asthma attack, the government should ban perfume. If someone plants Roses in the Garden, the government should ban Rose plants to protect people with Rose Fever. If someone uses a lawn insecticide that irritates someone else's throat, the government should ban insecticides, If someone is alergic to Aloe, the government should ban Aloe, etc. etc. etc.

There a six Billion people on the planet. Someone somewhere is always going to be allergic, annoyed, or irritated by something.

Welcome to Joel's world.

Sheeple
When will you all ever learn? It isn't nor has it ever been about curbing smoking or concern for the public health. It is about getting their foot in the door for controlling you.

In 2003, a total ban on tobacco products was proposed in North Dakota. The bill banning tobacco was defeated in large part to testimony given against the ban by anti-tobacco groups such as the North Dakota Medical Association, American Heart Association, American Cancer Society, American Lung Association, North Dakota Public Health Association and North Dakota Nurses Association.

Ban tobacco, they lose their cash cow!

Since you sheeple have fallen into the clutches of the smoke-nazi's (so named because the most ardent anti-smoker and hater of tobacco was Adolf Hitler), look at what else has come under closer scrutiny and calls for higher taxes, control and such.

It isn't about any public health at all, but about controlling you, in your home, on the street, in your car, at work, you name it.

You just keep giving up your liberties freely because some self described "expert" tells you they know better for you.

Joel
Your posts tend to confuse me somewhat. In your first, you speak of your disdain for smoking in placers where others might alos congregate, and suggest you might like to see a ban on such, yet in your remaining posts, you express a love for individual liberty.

If a restaurant is still able to allow a smoking area in their establishment, it should be up to the ownership of that restaurant, not the government; and it should be a choice of the customers of that resteraunt whether to continue to eat there or to move on to an establishment that does not allow smoking.

Like you, I do not and have never smoked, and I hate the smell of tobacco being burned, swhether pipe, cigar or cigarette. I have had a few drinks in my lifetime, but that is not the subject of this article. If I am somewhere where others are smoking to a point that it bothers me, I exercise my right, not to tell them to quit, but to leave the area myself.

I agree with you 100% that it is not the central government, but the individual states that have the authority to make such laws, and it seems we have had this discussion before as it relates to secession and enforcing the tenth amendment.

One cannot believe that the federal government should do what they are planning and still believe that it is the states right only to enact such laws.

I hope I am misinterpreting what you have been saying.

typos
sorry about the typos in my last post.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber
You have bought the propaganda statements from the anti smoking group that secondhand smoke is bad. It is NOT harmful. If it were then you wouldn't take your family out for a walk 3 or 4 blocks in a city which contains more poison than a million cigarettes.

Also, when you cook and eat a steak, you get the same "harmful" content as cigarettes.

As for nicotine, leafy vegetables and tomatoes are loaded with it.

LD35: Excellent points!

(Sorry Joel) But, this is not about smoking, or not, per se.

It's about govt control and social engineering... and the govt's further intervention in private business.





yeah the cutting edge here
seems to be Joe's public verses private.

If one admits that cigs give off a toxic substance then one has to frame the issues as issues of POLLUTION.

On the other hand, if the “pollution” is no more than a charcoal grill, or a lawnmower or your neighborhood paper mill then we are talking relative damage and limits to others’ rights to restrict my behavior on the principle of mere “risk” to them. Measurable, certifiable harm, like their commieqr partner giving them AIDS, yeah, mere statistical coincidence, nah.
You got an uphill battle proving my cigar or pipe or smokeless dip or chew is the same as piping my car exhaust into your living room.

So, if your risk is the same as me dumping my sewage into your well, yeah. If your issues are really a visceral disgust with the pleasure of tobacco, upyars.

The other side is framed completely wrongly. The issues of private ownership of public places like restaurants and theaters has been mis-framed from the beginning in order to force certain sociological and politically correct goals–social engineering. If it’s my restaurant it is my RIGHT to associate with and to serve only those people that I CHOOSE to, the SAME as I have a right to invite to my house ONLY those I choose to. Don’t give a Grand Coolie Dam what the SCUTS-R-US says, CONSTITUTIONALLY my right to Property, Voluntary Association, Privacy, says I can tell anybody I want, on any basis, Race, Ethnicity, Gender, Sexual Perversion,
Religion, Taste in Clothes, Eye Color, Bad Breath, Political Affiliation, to get the L off my property and STAY the L out of MY place. If I want to smoke in my own place and let others do so, it's nodambody else’s dambusiness. If you want to work for me you work under those conditions, same as wearing the uniform I tell you and the hours I set.

Most of the UHF4-CH4 here comes from confusing and mis-framing the issues.

Mick

Joel-De Oppresso Liber

No Joel I am not twisting your words.

Someone wears perfume in public it can affect some people with Asthma. The pollen from my Rose Garden doesn't stay in my Roae Gardem. It Travels throught the Community just like the smoke from my cigarette. The fumes from the fertilizer I put on my lawn will be picked up by the air and travel around the community. The Resturant is the Private property of its owner. That Owner happens to invite the public onto his private property to purchase food but its his private property to use as he sees fit.

The fact that you happen to have a relative with a genetic defeat caused asthma that makes them super sensitive to the smoke from tobacco does not change a thing.

If someone else has a relative with a genetic defect of dwarfed legs, according to you the Government should then ban steps.

You can rationalize your belief all you want but then someone else can then rationalize why you should lose some of your liberty when something you do bothers them.

That is the dangerous slope you advocate.

jodi
your demand for cleaning up after one's self is legit. Your claim of certifiable damage from someone's cig smoke is moot in the sense of debateable. Your prose suggests and indication that this is less a rational issue of rights for you, then a visceral--"how disgusting".
Again the issue can be solved by private owners of public places exercising their Constitutional Rights. If I want smoking in my bar YOU don't have to GO there, you don't have to WORK there. At that point the INVASION the ASSAULT, the IMPOSITION is YOURS on ME. Off the subway, the taxi, the courthouse, the public library fine and dandy.
In the space I own, nyet!

mick

Joel: Agreed to a point!


”There are exceptions, but as a general rule, smokers are a rude, and ill-mannered bunch of louts.”

A bit of a gross generalization.

”They do not care who they blow smoke on, sometimes doing so deliberatly.”

Perhaps, but also a bit of a gross generalization.

”They drop their butts anywhere they please, littering, and making sidewalks, streets, and public areas filthy.”

Again, also a bit of a gross generalization, but I admit those who do make me crazeee! And they should be fined for littering.



TheBigMick #30 does make excellent points.




TheBigMick #32: You really nailed it!

”... private owners of public places exercising their Constitutional Rights. If I want smoking in my bar YOU don't have to GO there, you don't have to WORK there.”

Agreed 100%


”Off the subway, the taxi, the courthouse, the public library fine and dandy.”

Agreed 100%



Govt Control
Anne nailed it!
It's just another way to grow government under the guise of helping "the people". Look at the War on Drugs as a prime example.

They are already moving on
Income from taxing cigs must be declining, because the government is moving on to other bad habits like sugar.

I don't smoke. I hate cigarettes. Most smokers I've met are clueless about how much they stink. Still, it is a legal activity. If a business wants to allow smoking on their property they shold be able to. The ONLY places I would agree should be smoke free are governemtn run entities like the courthouse, DMV, public transportation, etc. Those places are run by everyone's tax dollars and should be accesible by all. Anything that is privately owned, however, should be up to the owner.

Anyone who agrees with this, just wait. Eventually they will come after something YOU use.

Southern IL Pat,
your post #37 could have been written by a Founding Father or your fellow Illinois boy Abe.

Adolph Hitler was very, very apposed to smoking but felt it's regulation would be to authoritarian for Nazi Germany.

Homosexuals die
younger than smokers. How can the government keep kids from starting that bad habit too?

If we levied a special tax on gay sexual acts, could we then increase the life expectancy of the homosexual? If we really cared about these people, wouldn't we want to help them?

Wow, isn't taxation bitchin'?

Tyler from WA can use taxation to force everyone to live like him. What a Happy Day!

Prohibition, Part 11
It is amusing to read the comments here. Everyone thinks THEIR opinions and rights are more important than those of the opposing views.
Thus it is with every issue.
My opinion?
Why not total prohibition on all tobacco products in every way, shape or form in the US. (Would "weed" be included in this, too?) It worked pretty well for alcohol in the 1920's, right?
Anti-tobacco people would be happy, and since there would be a thriving "black market" of tobacco, the addicted would be happy, too.
Problem solved, right?
Wrong!
What about the thousands upon thousands who are connected to the tobacco industry who would lose their jobs? They sure wouldn't be happy.

And what on earth would the states and congress tax next to make up for the millions in lost tax revenues due to tobacco prohibition? Since there is nothing left that hasn't been taxed, then existing taxes on everything will just have to be raised.
Who would oppose that?
Remember, every action causes a reaction. Some good, some not so good.
Will the citizens ever reach a compromise between Constitutional rights, personal rights and responsibilities?
I doubt it.

Second Hand Smoke
Here's the Science on the subject.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,26109,00.html

Joel
"All of you are welcome to disagree, and justify yourself, but the objective reality is that smoking tobacco puts poison into the air."

I don't think anyone here will disagree with you that smoking is harmful, but to claim that smoking puts poison into the air is crossing a line that I don't think you are willing to cross. Exhaust gas from cars, trucks and buses put a degree of poison into the air, and I would guess to a higher level than tobacco, but I would be willing to bet the farm that you would not be for banning the use of the internal combustion engine.

The issue here is not whether a substance is bad for someone or not. The issue is whether the government, on any level, has the right to tell an individual that they can not do something stupid to themselves if they decide to. When Jesse Ventura was running for governor of Minnesota, he talked about the fools who ride their snowmobiles on ice too thin to support them, and how it should not be the state's responsibility to save their *sses, and he said that it was just "Nature's way of getting rid of the terminally stupid."

Like the stupid snowmobilers, if smokers want to inhale that poison into their lungs, I say let 'em do it. As far as the harm from second hand smoke goes, I think it is all hype, since there are many more harmful polutants in the air we breath and I surely wouldn't want to get rid of the cause of those polutants.

Joel, you and I usually agree on most subjects, but I differ with you on this one. As I said earlier, I am not and have never been a smoker, and never will be, but I will defend the smokers' right to indulge in the use of a legal product, and I object to the government restricting in any way their right to do so.


Joel
writes: Have you EVER known someone that did not turn green, cough, and want to vomit when they take their first drag? Why do you suppose that is? Perhaps there body is attempting to REJECT the poison?

Apparently, my body is perfectly adapted to take poison unlike the "clean living" types.

I did not turn green, choke or want to vomit on my first drag. do you know any smokers or caffeine drinkers for that matter?

I've seen you post again and again about liberty but when it comes down to something you disapprove of lookout Joel knows best.

Private businesses have every right to allow smoking and you have every right not to patonize them. I know it's a tough concept but no one holds a gun to your head and makes you go to a restaurant or bar or whatever.

This has always been about social control -- smokers were a test case for government to acclimate the sheep to total tyranny. And many people participated in the loss of their own freedoms. I can't wait til they go after the fatties and the drinkers. but guess what they'll be going after people for the number of children they have, the size of their house, if you can grow your own food, buy things with cash and ni ID.

It's all coming but you keep feeling good that you've punished those awful smokers.

$$$$$$$$$$
I dispute that the decision to smoke is a private one that harms nobody else. Leaving for a minute the entire concept of second-hand smoke, I am thinking of the monetary cost of medical treatment of millions of smokers when they get smoking-related illnesses. My son's mother-in-law died last year of emphysema. Her lung tissue was destroyed by many years of almost constant smoking. Basically, it is fair to say that she slowly choked to death, and this was not a pleasant way to go. The cost of multiple hospitalizations, home care, oxygen, ambulances, emergency room interventions, and medication was mostly borne by private insurance and Medicare. That means that all of us in Blue Cross and all of who pay the taxes that support Medicare helped to pay the costs of her last illness. Multiply this by several million. And, since I am limiting this post to the monetary costs of smokers' illnesses like emphysema and lung cancer, I also won't go into the emotional costs but to say that my daughter-in-law might have had her much-loved mother with her for many years yet, but for smoking, and that the lady left a husband who, a year later, is still absolutely devastated by the loss of his life's companion.

To Anne
Going to Europe a few years ago I steeled myself to have to breathe second-hand smoke (which, having grown up with smoking parents, I am very familiar with and loathe) as more people still smoke in Europe than here. But I had forgotten a few more second-hand delights of being in Smokerworld. 1) I was not out of the airport terminal when somebody carelessly flicked hot ash onto me---nothing personal, just a smoker gesturing as he talked, throwing his arm around the environement with a lit cigarette at the end of it. 2) At a resort, I left my robe on a lounge when I got into the swimming pool. A smoker on a high-up balcony flicked hot ash down and burned a hole clear through my (new) robe. I have to agree with the poster who said that smokers tend to be a bunch of selfish self-involved louts---my words, same meaning.

To Marlene from Horse's Mouth
I just happen to be sitting two feet away from a pharmacologist who was involved with the OK-ing of Nicorettes, which seems to be what you're talking about, so I asked him, well, what about it, how did Nicorettes work and why were they better than cigarettes? He said, two reasons. 1) No tars and other crap as are in cigarettes so the person gets his nicotine fix (which is a physical addiction) without the added carcinogens (cancer-causing agents). 2) The idea is NOT that the person stays on the same dose of Nicorettes forever as a permanent substitute for cigarettes, but that he gradually decreases his use of Nicorettes with diminishing dosage controlled by a doctor. They're a less-harmful-than-cigarettes way to taper off, for those who have the personal will and self-discipline to taper off. Not a diabolical plan to make the Federal Government or Big Pharma your pusher, as you assume. And I really hope you aren't suggesting that it's worth having the population all smoking Lucky Strikes and getting lung cancer if ONLY we can just can keep small business happy?

lilly, lilly, lilly... Because of

TWO (2) rude people who happened to be smokers, you label all smokers selfish self-involved louts???

Oh pa-lease.........

We have MUCH BETTER reason to think of liberals as selfish self-involved louts!


Psychopaths and Nicotine...

There are 2 types of Psychopaths: Those who kill, and those who don't kill.

A high percentage of Psychopaths who 'do' kill, do not smoke.

Inversely, a high percentage of Psychopaths who 'do not' kill, smoke.


Hence, smoking can save lives.


Carlos: You do know, your post will

cause lilly's eyes to roll right back into her head?? :-)



Anne

Isn't that her natural look :-)

Angry smokers often reach for a cigarette when they're upset, and thus reflect first before acting.

What do Angry non-smokers do?


Have a good night Anne!






smokers
since when is it the government's job to decide what is healthy enough to keep doing and what is not? and what's to stop them from the next thing they say costs us too much money? why is it now the governmant's job to not stop smokers, but tax them more until they quit? if it is so bad, make it illegal. have a national referendum or something, an amendment to the constitution. or are they so cowardly that they have to do something step by step so people won't notice?
i have no problem not smoking @ non-smokers, even though my smoking hasn't been proved to harm them. until i see a study that has babies living from birth until death in a closed room breathing only second hand smoke and dying from whatever disease second hand smoke gives them that cannot be attributed to genetics or other environmental problems, second hand smoke is just a (forgive me, please) "smokescreen" for outlawing something you don't like, and that goes against everything this country stands for.
as for spending more money on smokers, please refer me to the study explaining exactly how much is spent on deaths due to smoking (minus the people who die from cancer every year that have it in their family tree, as you cannot prove that they wouldn't have gotten it anyway, and the ones that might have gotten it from something else, like anything the left doesn't like next) vs. the amount we would spend on them if they lived to a ripe old age and died from something else after years of care in a nursing home.

The real question is...
This weekend on an NPR interview, Phillip Morris representative conceded that tobacco should be regulated by the FDA, as it contains an addictive drug (nicotine) and is responsible for cutting the short the lives of approximately 400,000 people a year.
But the real question is this: Why on earth would anyone want to do business with the tobacco companies, which are selling you a product that they know is addictive and has the potential of killing you?
Having the right to grow or sell tobacco is not the same thing as being right in doing it. The tobacco is industry is composed of scum who want line their pockets at your expense. The very fact that they continue to sell something they know is addictive and can kill you puts them on the same level as drug lords, some of the dregs of humanity.
So, again, why would you lower yourself to giving these worthless scum your money?

Obama's smoking
I wonder if you believe that Obama's harming others? I also wonder if Democrats would have been horrified if Bush had smoked? And no, I'm not a smoker.

Obama's smoking
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the Left in that they are strangely silent when it comes to Obama smoking. No way would the Left let a Republican president get away with it. It's the hypocrisy and double standard that I despise. Also, I'm sure Obama doesn't smoke in the White House however, I'd bet he has smoked with his girls present at times-where's the outrage?

Next
The assault on cheeseburgers, sodas, candy, chips, and anything else that liberals decide is bad for us is next. I'm not a smoker, but I do like liberty

Chapman's complaints are unfounded
What Chapman conveniently omits from his criticism of stricter regulation of tobacco is that the strictest possible "regulation" of a competitive product is to make its production, sale, and possession illegal; which is the case with marijuana.

Since marijuana was discovered by American adolescents in the late Sixties, it has been tried by upwards of half of all teens and its market has grown steadily. My study of Californians seeking to use it medically
confirms that the same "kids" attracted to pot were also disposed to try both alcohol and tobacco, thus raising considerable doubt about the forces that impel teen use of (and addiction to) all drugs.

Chapman is simply trying to score political points in an area he doesn't understand, and it shows.

tobacco control
mr. chapman: it is too bad the facts are not clearly addressed. desease from cigarette/cigar smoke is caused by improper breathing technique &/or heredity. studies show that cigarette/cigar smokers are 50% less likely to contract Alzheimer's or Parkinson's deseases, and smoking actually benefits patients. other deseases, such as asthma & stress, also seem to receive some benefit.

The Liberal Haters
Apparently have not watched a TV Commercial for any major Pharmaceutical Company describing the side effects of the drugs they sale, up to and including death. Thanks Mr. Chapman for pointing out the hypocriscy and stupidty of such non-sense for the children by the Hypocrit in the White House and his Congressional Supporters on both sides of the aisle. Would the Liberal Haters ban prescription drugs that could cause death if taken. I think not. And about those numbers, I still challenge anyone on TH to tell me that they have seen a Death Certificate, signed by a MD, that stated cause of Death, Smoking. Scan It and Post it Please. I would also say this is not about money, the Waxmans in Congress really do believe that they are God(s), and not only can control you, but the temperature of the planet earth as well. Newsflash Liberal Haters, no man, woman,or animal is God and that includes you Haters. I know this because I hate all golfers and think they should be taxed or punished just like the cows, and our property taxes should not be spent on building Golf Courses for them to destroy the Ozone. Just kidding about the cows, I wouldn't want to upset the good folks at PETA.

Joel-- you are wrong on this one!
"Roses are in someones PERSONAL garden. No one else has to go there. Same thing with insecticide, and all of your other examples."

If I own a business it is my PERSONAL business. It is my PERSONAL investment and hard work that created it. If I wish to allow smoking in my business, that is my right. If I want to cater only to men or only to women that is my right.

I am astounded by your views here. It goes without saying that you are a conservative. However, like any other legislator who has a PERSONAL bone to pick with any business, you jump on the bandwagon of gubmint control. And we all know that politicians with personal axes to grind are EXTREMELY dangerous in a free society. You can post over and over again a million reasons why gubmint should be able to dictate to PRIVATE businesses the activities that will be allowed in those PRIVATE businesses and you will still NEVER convince a TRUE limited government conservative-constitutionalist that you are right. What's next? Our PRIVATE (until now) homes? Would you have gubmint tell parents that they cannot smoke in their homes for benefit of their kids? Would you also consent to gubmint telling them what to feed their kids?

Yes, you have an axe to grind on smoking with what seems to be good and heartfelt cause HOWEVER THAT DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT! You may respond but NO argument will ever change my mind on this one. In this case you are out in the lefties field.

Mr. Joel D. O. Liber'
Regarding my suggestion of total prohibition of tobacco, you totally missed the deliberate sarcasm of the suggestion. Read it again. I know some have a hard time realizing they are being mocked.

Smoke police
I agree with merrycolin. If you want smoking in your business then you should be able to allow it. You should not have the government telling you who to hire, what you pay or if they can smoke. Let's open some smoking only businesses and the government will still interfear. And now the FDA is going to regulate cigarettes. That is not right.
Government is out of control and forgot the constitution and forgot what their role is.

control freaks
There's already a black market in tobacco, suppose it will just get bigger now.
The Govt can't even control pot smokers and now they are going to try and control smokers?

Well I Checked Back Today
To see if one Liberal Smoker Hater would post a Death Certificate where an MD signed it stating that the cause of Death was smoking. Not one Liberal Hater on TH posted one document. Liberals say smoking related, and I say fertilizer and BBQ pit related. The bottom line is Liberal Haters have no prooof of what they claim. They just have a desire to hate something or someone, and hating African Americans is no longer PC. Hope you are getting your Hate fix Liberals. I REALLY DON'T HATE GOLFERS. I love Freedom and Liberty too much too be like you.

Talk about evil...

Eddie L
Very very perceptive take on the hating of the left. It was indeed the democrats that shot down the first civil rights bill was it not?

Bottom line - they are a bunch of cowards, that try and live their miserable lives vicariously through power hungry scumbags like the Kenyan president wannabe.

The Romans used to talk about certain cultures being "more fit to be slaves then soldiers". The far left easily fits this description. They have no moral fortitude of their own, so they hide like cowards behind dictator wannabes like the Kenyan.

Taking it a step further
Has anyone else noticed that the far left does not care what the Kenyan actually wants to do? That is because they are, again, living vicariously through the power they believe he has.

Consequently, as the Kenyan continues to weaken you will see the left lose it's courage faster than a stripper loses their confidence after passing the age of 35. But we must continue the assault to make sure no more Child-King wannabes can play their messed up games with the economy. Real people are hurting because of the Kenyan's pre-pubescent understanding of economics and reality.



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