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Monday, January 05, 2009
Rachel Alexander :: Townhall.com Columnist
Terrorists' Rights Versus Crime Prevention
by Rachel Alexander
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Civil libertarians, including prominent conservatives like Rep. Ron Paul and former Rep. Bob Barr, have made loud objections to the U.S. government’s efforts to counteract terrorism in the wake of 9-11.

In particular, they have protested the detainment and interrogation methods used on suspected terrorists at Gitmo, wiretapping, and other methods of surveillance. They don’t represent the majority of Americans, many who privately say anyone involved with terrorism should be executed.

They don’t dare say this publicly since the law has evolved over time to provide those accused of crimes certain privileges, labeling them “rights.” While some of these “rights” make sense in order to prevent the government from falsely imprisoning innocent people, at some point there is a line where these specified additional “rights” for suspected terrorists begin to infringe upon the rights of innocent Americans. How these terrorists’ “rights” have been created and defined has mostly been decided in the U.S. courts by judges, not by Congress, by overturning legislation passed by Congress and signed by the President. Considering the judiciary is controlled by the left, and considering our Founding Fathers as a representative body wrote the Constitution establishing our rights, it is disturbing that a few lone judges are now deciding what our rights – and the “rights” of terrorists - are.

Since the 1960’s, liberal activist judges have created so many new “rights” for criminals that it has become very difficult to get information out of accused terrorists or detain them for very long. It’s a vicious cycle – law enforcement is no longer permitted to get information from suspected terrorists unless they coddle them, read them their right to remain silent, and supply them with a U.S. taxpayer-funded attorney to represent them, etc. Without the ability to obtain any information from them, it becomes difficult to justify detaining them without violating their (new) “rights.” So even though we all know the Guantanamo detainees have been aiding and abetting terrorists whose sole goal in life is to kill U.S. citizens, we pretend that the U.S. Constitution includes all these additional “rights” for terrorists and their aiders and abettors, ultimately enabling them to continue their attacks upon U.S. citizens.

Many of the anti-terrorism methods being attacked by civil libertarians involve new methods and areas of communication never addressed nor contemplated by the Constitution or Congress. Claims that our freedoms are gradually being eroded by the government’s attempts to deal with terrorism are inaccurate since these new areas had never been established as constitutional rights for those accused of terrorist activity. Cell phones have only come into existence in recent years. Torture has only become broadly defined in recent years, so attempting to claim that certain interrogation measures are “unconstitutional” is nothing more than another attempt to broaden what defines “torture.” Congress has passed laws attempting to reconcile changing technologies with the Fourth Amendment’s vague general protection against “unreasonable” searches and seizures – emphasis on unreasonable. Left-leaning civil liberties activists seem to forget the word “unreasonable” in their efforts to apply the Fourth Amendment to new Congressional law in these areas.

In the legal arena generally, there are myriads of exceptions to judicially-carved out Fourth Amendment rights. For example, there is no absolute right to be free of wiretapping regardless of who you are, there is always some way to get an emergency order authorizing one.

Civil liberties activists contend that the government will abuse its power through surveillance programs, and so they demand that any surveillance authorized have a proven link between the suspect being monitored and terrorist activity or organizations. While this sounds good in theory, it does not take into account the fact that terrorists deliberately try to avoid scrutiny by disguising overt connections through the use of third parties and misleading names.

Another criticism of left wing civil liberties activists is that the surveillance is authorized to search communications within the U.S., not just overseas. Again, this doesn’t take into account reality, which is that many terrorists are now operating within the U.S. as sleeper cells, and others have friendly enablers in the U.S. helping them coordinate their attacks. All of the 9-11 hijackers were in the U.S.

A better approach would be give the laws on terrorism as drafted by Congress a chance, and then if an abuse does occur, where the government spies on someone with no connections to terrorism, revisit the law and determine what changes should be made to prevent those abuses. There will always be areas where the government can overreach, we can never get rid of the possibility of human error in any area ever. It’s simply not possible to eliminate this variable. So to proactively restrict the government’s power in this arena beyond current limitations would seriously cripple the ability of the government to protect us from terrorists. As long as the U.S. is the freest democracy in the world, there is little chance that our government is going to turn against its citizens and spy on them. As long as we have free elections and are electing free market, pro-democracy leaders, these kinds of abuses are unlikely and would be an exception should they occur.

When critics say that terrorist prevention “weakens our civil liberties,” what do they mean? It means in that person’s opinion, any laws being drafted to address the new technologies and methods involved in terrorism should allow the government very little latitude to stop terrorism, and an activist court needs to declare in an official sounding manner using plenty of legalese that there is a correlation between greatly restricting government’s ability to stop terrorism and the vague phrases “protecting your constitutional rights” and “civil liberties.”

It is good that we have watchdog groups looking out for our rights and liberties. But their interest in determining what constitutes “rights” needs to be balanced against the interests of Americans who are entitled to life, liberty and happiness as provided by the Declaration of Independence. Failing to take precautions to prevent another 9-11 due to politically correct notions about terrorists’ “rights” tramples on the rights of innocent Americans.

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About The Author
Rachel Alexander is the co-editor of the Intellectual Conservative.
Government will take our freedom
first of all I would like to say that our government was based on a republic form of government not a democracy. A democracy is defined as a people ruled government, we however are not people ruled we ourselves elect officals to make the best decisions for us this is why we elect represenatives and senators.
on to the subject of this I do think that the government can and will try to take our freedoms away however this can be stoped if we fight back and vioce our opinions. congress will continualy try to slowly erode away our freedoms by finding ways around our constitution. for example of this the government wants us to carry ID cards around is this not in violation with our first ten amendmants you tell me

Geneva Convention
Why should these people be given the same rights as uniformed soldiers who abide by a certain code of conduct. I don't believe people who strap bombs to innocents and perform beheadings for the sheer purpose of terror deserve the same rights. They are thugs, but if there is a chance for error give them a military trial not a trial in this country with our rights period. They did not commit the acts on our soil and should not be tried on our soil.

There is little chance?
"As long as the U.S. is the freest democracy in the world, there is little chance that our government is going to turn against its citizens and spy on them."

The only problem with this statement is that the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act together ALREADY grants the U.S. gov't the authority to label any U.S. citizen a "domestic terrorist" and suspend THEIR rights.

The writer also seems to forget the U.S. gov't already HAS spied on its own citizens - hence the Intelligence Oversight Act of 1980 which in part governs the way the gov't can use intel collected, inadvertently of course, on U.S. citizens while it is simultaneously collecting intel on other countries' citizens.

Cardinal5671
Wouldn't you object if another country tried to hold US citizens indefinately without a trial? Cardinal5671

===================

Like WW2, WW1? Our current terrorist enemy would have us decapitated and not held, they don't follow the Geneva Conventions rules of war. But luckily we do.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e63b b/6fef854a3517b75ac125641e004a9e68

Art 118. Prisoners of war shall be released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities.

I disagree with SCOTUS on them having constitutional rights, we should treat them as war prisoners keeping Gitmo open, and not law breakers.

But since they are allowed these rights, they should be tried and fried in capital punishment states.

Just think about it for a minute...
"So even though we all know the Guantanamo detainees have been aiding and abetting terrorists whose sole goal in life is to kill U.S. citizens, we pretend that the U.S. Constitution includes all these additional “rights” for terrorists and their aiders and abettors, ultimately enabling them to continue their attacks upon U.S. citizens."

If we know, then why not use that information to "rightfully" incarcerate them? Or is it that we really don't know and just figure they are guilty and are waiting for them to confess?

I'm not suggesting that the standards for evidence against the terrorists should be the same as that as used in US criminal trials, but we should at least agree that we must have some kind of evidence to prove guilt before holding someone indefinately.

Wouldn't you object if another country tried to hold US citizens indefinately without a trial?

Islam: What The West Needs To Know...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781

Illustrating the point
http://www.scottbieser.com/images/Sept11_c540.jpg

And remember that unarmed civilians courageously and successfully took down one of the planes.

Armed civilians could have stopped ALL of them.

Terrorists hiding in the population.
Chuck writes:
"They (terrorists) blend in with the population only to emerge to kill. They came to our country on 9/ll and killed close to 3,000 of us. Terrorists don't wear a big red "T" on their shirts to identify them as combatants. "

That is the beauty of the 2nd Amendment. When they emerge to kill we kill them in self defense. Or we would have except we have been mostly disarmed cause we obey even bad and / or unconstitutional laws.



Terrorists
The terrorists don't worry about torture; they just cut off the heads of any of our military they capture. they don't hold trials or have the bleeding hearts wringing their hands over the "constitutional rights" of the prisoners they capture. I'm so sick of the political correctness that will ultimately lead to our downfall as a nation.

The real threat

The older I get, the more I despise "idealists". They are simply blind to the realities of this world. History is rife with the tragedies of comparatively advanced cultures which were, ultimately, defeated by enemies who were, technically and scientifically, less advanced . . . but more relentless, more barbaric, more cunning and more deceitful than their more refined and civilized victims. Everything we do in this life is a matter of DEGREE, of PROPORTION, and often, a matter of a choice between two unpleasant, but necessary decisions. There often really is such a thing as a lesser of two evils . . . sometimes we do not have a better choice.
There are people in this world who do NOT care about rules, about morals, about Constitutions, about due-process, and, contrary to what those on the Left would like us to believe, the MAJORITY of those unscrupulous people do not dwell within our own society and government, but OUTSIDE of our own borders . . . in regimes and cultures which, demonstrably, do not share the values of the U.S. Constitution. We will not be destroyed by an occasional failure to live up to our own principles. We will more likely be destroyed by our own naive and "idealistic" collective dogmatism that refuses to acknowledge that there are people who have a LONG-TERM agenda . . . people who will put on a public mask of "peace", while using the freedoms provided by the Constitution to infiltrate our country and subvert that same Constitutional system.

FROG . . . in KY

So, what exactly is your point?

Daily Steve
That is an awfully large number of embarassing mistakes you made in an awfully small space.

First, the idea that released Gitmo detainees are flooding into battle is something of an urban myth pushed by the right. In reality it turns out its basis was a report which counted people who criticized their incarceration at Gitmo as joining in the fight. You see they figure that people knowing that innocent people were brought to Gitmo makes us look bad, so people pointing that out are fighting against us in the war on terror. Yes there are very stupid people out there that don't understand much of what America stands for.

But the really embarassing error was your thinking that claiming that some people released from Gitmo were terrorists (if true, and at least after being released from years of abuse) somehow contradicted my point that some of the people at Gitmo (in fact it appears most) were innocent. You do see that it is possible for some people to have property X and yet for other people not to have property X, don't you.

You also seem to be unaware that a small minority of the people at Gitmo were actually captured by us on the battlefield. Most of the Gitmo detainees were bought from bounty hunters by third parties looking to make money off of the Bush administration stupidity. That probably explains why the guilt rate seems to be so low.

chvietvet
I'm older than dirt, white, retired Military and CONFUSED!!! What, exactly, are U trying to say?? I think I have seen a posting or two by U previously, talking about this *inability to get a job* because of something to do with Ur Military Service in Vietnam..
I don't serve in any Official capaciry, but I have numerous contacts within the VFW, DAV, VA, etc. who ARE quite effective in obtaining help for people who need help..WHAT SAT U???

chvietvet
I'm older than dirt, white, retired Military and CONFUSED!!! What, exactly, are U trying to say?? I think I have seen a posting or two by U previously, talking about this *inability to get a job* because of something to do with Ur Military Service in Vietnam..
I don't serve in any Official capaciry, but I have numerous contacts within the VFW, DAV, VA, etc. who ARE quite effective in obtaining help for people who need help..WHAT SAT U???

Kerry from MI

I agree Terrorist, Enemy Combatants, and war are different and require different responses.

Unfortunately, this concept is just too complex for Liberals to grasp. They like the simplistic "one size fits all approach" that does not require a lot of in depth thought or understanding.

However, there might be a problem with your analysis, Geneva Accords only apply to signers of the accords. Al Quaeda, to my knowledge, has never signed the accords. Al Quaeda is not a recognized state and yet has declared war on the U.S. Legally, Al Quaeda can be viewed as a nation whose people reside in many counties.

Under these circumstances, applying the standards of the Geneva Accords is optional on both the U.S. and Al Quaeda.

Yes Al Quaeda has comitted "Crimes Against Humanity". But as we have seen all too often, "Crimes Against Humanity" is not always and consistantly persued. There is no International treaty that mandates enforcement of "Crimes Against Humanity".

We can all take comfort with the knowledge that the better educated we are about domestic and international law, the more we know George Bush did an excellent job complying with the spirt of the law.

Those that disagree with Bush's handling of Enemy Combants, are just not well educated on the issue.

What rock did you crawl out from under?
Ms. Alexander, you have drank way to much of the Bush coolaid. And that comes from a life long right wing conservative constitutional Republican (me). Have you considered in your mind that the only mistake made was that we did not "declare war", as required by our Constitution, prior to engaging enemies in foreign lands? Had we done that, there would be no issue, and you would not have a job. We would simply be doing it the same way we did in WWII. When you start avoiding the requirements of the Constitution from the very begining, you end up with all sorts of problems down the line. Sort of like telling a "little" lie at the start, and ending up having to come up with whoppers before you know it and you are in deep trouble. Ron Paul warned about this from the very beginning. All he wanted was a declaration of war prior to engaging the enemey in a foreign country. Wise up Madam.

What Country are You From?
Take some time to actually read the Bill of Rights and the Constitution and you will find that the laws have been there since the beginning. They did not evolve over time to provide those accused of crimes certain privileges, labeling them “rights.” We do not know that all of the detainees are guilty of terrorism. We know that the government locked them up.

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

“He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” -Thomas Payne


Alice Lillie
Excellent post. I agree with you 100%. Too many people are willing to give up their freedom for security without looking into why we need the "security" in the first place. Spot on regarding our foreign policy and the reason why we are having so many issues now due to our meddling in others lives. I too support Ron Paul and the Campaign for Liberty.

What freedom loving American can truly agree with the Patriot Act? It is absolutely unconstitutional and is setting up American citizens to have their rights stripped from them if they are deemed a "terrorist" which is subjective in and of itself. Who determines what or who a terrorist is? The government and of course they are our friends and would never attempt to harm us. Look to the Constitution and see what limits are imposed upon our government to determine it gives the government the authority to pass any law or regulation. I don't see which Article authorizes the Patriot Act.

I PROUDLY SUPPORT PAUL AND BARR!!!
I am a proud supporter of Ron Paul. He is right. Not only that but he is popular. The establishment media drummed him, and Libertarian Bob Barr who I voted for in the general election, out. This is evidenced by the GOP debate on FOX before the primaries when Dr. Paul got more text message votes than all the others *combined.* Including mine. Also his fundraising.

Go to You Tube and check him out.

Paul is right about the Constitution. The Constitution lists what the federal government *can* do and says that the federal government can do *nothing* else, all else being left to the states or the people. The Ninth and Tenth Amendments are quite clear.

For a search to be reasonable you need a *warrant.* The Fourth Amendment is quite clear.

As for rights, don't forget that rights come from *God* not the government, not even from the Constitution. The Bill of Rights *lists* some of these rights but does not *give* them. We all *have* our rights, no matter what. They are *unalienable.* No matter how many laws are passed, we still have our rights.

As for terrorism, our foreign policy over the past century or so is the main reason. We *must* stop meddling, bring troops home, have commerce with all (this means a free market) and entangling alliances with none.

And, the *government* needs to follow the law the same as the rest of us.

The country is going to heck, and it's mostly because of government not staying in it's place.

Read my blog at http://www.alicelillieandher.blogspot.com

Rights for "criminals"
"So even though we all know the Guantanamo detainees have been aiding and abetting terrorists"
How do we know that without a fair and open trial?

You might be the next "terrorist"
Count me in with those heretical conservatives like Ron Paul (who I voted for in the Republican primary) and Bob Barr (who I voted for in the general election) who think our Constitutional rights and civil liberties ought to be "conserved," even in the face of a terrorist threat.
The question isn't just "Are terrorists nice people?" or even, "Do terrorists have rights?" The question is: Do you still have rights if the U.S. government *says* you're a terrorist? What if the government is wrong?
I'm as concerned about terrorism as the next person, but I'm more afraid of an out-of-control government released from all Constitutional bounds than I am of terrorism.
Keep this in mind: If you own guns and believe in gun rights... or if you oppose abortion....or if you object to excessive environmental regulation of private property... or if you disagree with race-based affirmative action...there are people on the Left who think YOU are a potential terrorist or accomplice to terrorism. Do you want to give them an excuse to treat YOU as you want Islamic terrorist suspects to be treated?

Goofy liberals
Lon does not seem to follow these issues too closely.

He writes: "And the only people who know that everyone at Gitmo is a terrorist are people who have not been paying attention."

Yeah, tell that to the people who died because we released detainees who went back and started killing again. Oh, that's right you can't - they're dead because idiots like you insisted on releasing killers.

He writes: "Presumably when Republican insist that people accused of a crime should be treated as if they are guilty of crime they are counting on some belief that people like themselves will not have such mistakes made about them."

Presumably when liberals insist that people caught on the battlefield who are not in uniform - which is a war crime by the way with a quick bullet to the head the appropriate punishment - be treated as the Geneva Convention allows they are counting on some belief that the terrorists won't kill them along with the Republicans, a foolish belief at best and downright dangerous.

One of the reasons some of the detainees are still in Gitmo is that they are in danger of being tortured in their home countries and no other countries will accept them.

Embarassing
Alexander does not seem to follow these issues too closely. This is an odd collection of know nothing rants.

Most of the current judiciary was appointed by Republicans. The idea that the courts are liberal controlled is pretty goofy.

And the only people who know that everyone at Gitmo is a terrorist are people who have not been paying attention. Most of the people sent to Gitmo because they were the worst of the worst have since been released because it turns out they aren't.

One group, the Uighurs are openly acknowledged not to have been enemies of the US when captured (how they feel after 6 years of inhumane treatment at Gitmo is another question.) Know they are at least kept in the nicest part of Gitmo with their own soccer field, but they still give the lie to the idea that everyone at Gitmo is a terrorist.

Presumably when Republican insist that people accused of a crime should be treated as if they are guilty of crime they are counting on some belief that people like themselves will not have such mistakes made about them. Otherwise they might actually be dumb enough to believe such mistakes are not made. Either way it is pretty embarassing.

"rights"
The author's act of putting it in quoatation marks certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Torture is always wrong. Waterboarding and other Bush approved techniques are torture.

There is no defense to these acts that is civilized and reasonable, no matter how eruditely made. The use of torture has damaged our nation, increased terrorism, and the defense of it by people like htis writer have damaged the legitimacy of the Republican party.

Leon Panetta has been nominated for...
CIA Director. Given Janet Napolitano was nominated for Secretary of DHS, when she couldn't control her own home state's borders, I guess our national security will be MIA for the next 4 years.

Harold
If there IS another 9/11 - or several - perpetrated on this country during Obama's presidency because his administration's policies make it easier for terrorists to strike us on our soil, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that heavily liberal areas will be their likeliest targets - such as Seattle. Somehow, I doubt that places like Salt Lake City or Tulsa or Sioux City or Jackson, MS - in other words, redoubts of the VRWC - are higher on Islamic terrorist hit lists than, say, L.A. or NYC or Washington DC or Chicago. Who knows, Obama himself may be among the first ones greased in a WMD attack on our soil that his administration's policies may enable: if his policies make it easier for Islamic terrorists to hit us in that way, somehow I doubt that the terrorists will show their gratitude by deciding that Washington DC should be considered sacrosanct.

So if Obama makes it easier to terrorists to strike us during his presidency, HIS supporters figure to do the vast majority of the paying for it in blood. But, when their survivors are visiting their grave sites, they'll probably still blame their loved ones' deaths on George Bush - even if the attack happened the next-to-last day of Obama's second term. So if a terrorist attack during Obama's presidency turns a good bit of Seattle into a wasteland, maybe your fellow Washingtonians might finally be roused from their Starbucks-induced stupor. But I'm not holding my breath.

More Rights for Terrorists Than Citizens
The U.S. government has bent over backwards to accomodate imprisoned Islamic terrorists and those attempting to force their religion upon Judeo-Christians and all other Americans by threatening and suing Americans under freedom of religion which they're being allowed to abuse as the judges go along with their demands, but the fact is that the intent of their religion is political and encourages the takeover of the only FREE country in the world and killing infidels. Therefore, it's time to stop this insanity and stand up for our constitution and country and those foreigners who don't want to assimilate and stop forcing their beliefs on Americans have the right to live in their own countries. It's time for those who are violating our constitutional laws and jeporadizing the welfare and safety of our citizens to be held accountable. It's time for those who were aware of the fraud and abuse of our tax dollars and filled their bank accounts to be kicked out of office and who are taking vacations and partying and handing out bonuses and taking money from Islamic terrorist funds to get elected and get wealthier because of their greed and jet around at taxpayers expense to be held accountable instead of telling the American people to go build bridges and dig holes because too bad that we stole your taxes, social security and 401ks and trampled on your U.S. Constitutional laws and telling us that we must support Global Poverty and illegals from around the world who break our laws and provide them with healthcare, housing, driver's licenses, and jobs, but turn around and arrest CEOs if they don't know if a ID is fake or not. Who are those people in the White House, but then if they use voter fraud to get elected or take money illegally from foreign countries and don't prove who they are as a U.S. President to We The People, it looks like they don't care much for our American traditions, laws, or way of life, doesn't it?

Terrorists Rights
Whenever I hear one of these idiots complain about how how mean terrorists are being treated I want to puke. They are more concerned with the rights of those killers than in the safety of their own country. I also find myself hoping that if there is another attack on this country, as on 9/11, that some of their loved ones will be the victims. Them, maybe, they won't be so quick to sympathize with these killers. The trouble is, they would probably decide that it was all the fault of the United States. They'd probably claim that there wouldn't be attacks if we didn't treat our attackers so cruelly. Just like those idiot Democrats, after we went into Afghanistan and Iraq, who actually claimed that 9/11 would not have happened if we had not gone into Iraq. Naturally, I thought they were talking about Desert Storm, but nope, they were talking about the current war in Iraq. The fact that 9/11 happened first was irrelevant to them. In fact, to this day I still hear liberal making the claim that 9/11 would not have happened had we not gone into Iraq and Afghanistan.

Myk in Oregon ...
You sound a lot like Esau. Enjoy your warm meal. It may be your last.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Rights for Terrorists?
Constitutionally, Habeas Corpus isn't even a right for Americans; it's a privilege.

Article 1, Section 9, Clause 2 clearly states: The PRIVILEGE of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, UNLESS WHEN IN CASES OF REBELLION OR INVASION THE PUBLIC SAFETY MAY REQUIRE IT. (emphasis added)

And I wonder, are these same lawyers for 9/11 "truth" going after Bill Clinton for the wiretapping his justice department performed? I doubt it, since under Clinton it was justified as "information gathering" and not "prosecution."

"The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes and that the President may, as has been done, delegate this authority to the Attorney General....

It is important to understand that the rules and methodology for criminal searches are inconsistent with the collection of foreign intelligence and would unduly frustrate the president in carrying out his foreign intelligence responsibilities....

Intelligence is often long range, its exact targets are more difficult to identify, and its focus is less precise. Information gathering for policy making and prevention, rather than prosecution, are its primary focus."
-Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick, 1994

Calling BS...
"They don’t represent the majority of Americans, many who privately say anyone involved with terrorism should be executed."

The majority of Americans watch American Idol and voted for Obama -- two other dumb ideas.

"So even though we all know the Guantanamo detainees have been aiding and abetting terrorists..."

Glad that "we all know" this -- even though the majority of people hustled off to Gitmo have since been freed.

In short, this columnist offers only pre-fab, git-yer-dander-up BS sound bites. When will we get some conservative columnists who actually seem capable of fresh thinking?


Problem with this analysis -
"A better approach would be give the laws on terrorism as drafted by Congress a chance, and then if an abuse does occur, where the government spies on someone with no connections to terrorism, revisit the law and determine what changes should be made to prevent those abuses.

The above statement assumes "laws on terrorism" are legitimate. If the terrorists have declared war on the US, why do our (criminal) laws apply at all? Who ever heard of a rule that says that laws of one country apply to terrorists who, by definition, are combatants outside the purview of law?

It seems that the only law that should apply is the "law of war," which says that one must fight the war in a way and with a result that leads to a lasting peace.

Play your trump card
National security trumps wishy-washy tactic anytime. And, oh, guys, John McCain was not tortured for information, but for sheer evil.

Human Rights are Universal.
UncleB,
It seems that your Mr. McCain, has enough spare houses, to handle the entire Guantanamo population on his own.

& knowing his history as a POW, I wager that he will not agree with you & those like you, when it come to "Torture", & other such Universal inalienable human rights.

"If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose that freedom: & the irony of it is that if it is comfort, or money, that it values more, it will lose that too."

W., & his crew (you?) are, in my opinion, guilty of War crimes, & crimes against humanity. They will be Judged & punished.

Google Lawyers for 9/11 Truth, Justice is coming to settle a big Karmic score !

Pancho
Pancho, my apologies. I've confused you with someone else. You are correct.

I will go outside immediately and engage in 20 minutes of self criticism.

By the way, I love Utah, was stationed at Hill AFB for a while long ago and almost relocated there afterwards. Still have many friends there.


none
You are SOOOOO right about the liberal a-holes hosting a gitmo prisoner (or two) in their homes during the trials. Maybe a few could be housed with the lib's grandchildren. I mean they are peace loving misunderstood muslims.
Right??????

gitmo detainees
this argument could easily be solved: each lib member of congress should host a detainee during the trial. since they are all innocent people it should not be a problem for the dems. kind of like a foreign exchange for adults.... furthermore the aclu should represent the detainees pro bono-just because... ah, i wish.

58ttom
Please inform us which/what "rights of yours havebeen offended and what "secrets" of your have been exposed to the world because of the patriot act.
Do you have something to hide from us. If you are doing stuff y ou don't want us to know about, maybe you should be in Gitmo yourself

Losing more credibility
>Too bad you're unable to forsee the future properly. This is because you're a "progressive thinker", one of those "open mind" liberals whose open minds are always filled with crap by some messiah or secular potentate who does your thinking for you.<

Boasting that you can see the future properly only makes you conceited, not correct, especially after proclaiming that Obama is a Muslim and we have an Islamic sympathizing legislature. That's an extremely radical position, and my disagreement with it doesn't make me a progressive, liberal or whatever negative characterization you feel compelled to apply.

Like many TH posters, when challenged, your default position is to claim liberalism or the really irrelevant conjuring of the term, "messiah".

There's lots not to like about Obama, especially his commitment to entitlements and the nanny state. Had you followed my posts in the past year, you would know that I was a strong supporter of Mitt Romney. My concerns with Obama stem more from his embracing socialism, not the perceived accusation that he is a Muslim. That doesn't him my messiah and it doesn't make a case that someone does my thinking for me.

It only means that I disagree with your statement.

Money Is At The Root Of All Evil
Three bearded men are seated at a small round table in a Damascus motel. They have been in discussion for nine hours and the subject is the price of peace in Gaza. The agreement has almost been reached it is now only about how quickly a billion dollars will be transported to Hamas. There have been no discussions about ideology or religion only about the size and delivery of the extortion payment. The men are getting tired and peace will soon return to Gaza.

Walk in one's shoes first
You go jumping all over Ron Paul or constitutional government. Yet, you have not taken time to inform yourself to the whole understanding. Your view is progressive ideology of let Mother government take care of me.

Rights are given by a law that is a shorten version of liberty. So you want to keep adding on laws then at some future date complain for your loss of liberty.

Do you not think it better. If the USA strengthened its borders, making everyone walk through Ellis Island indoctrination. That would serve as one darn good prevention.

Also, if our other constitutional rights were not taken away. Most Americans would not only defend their property, they would defend their neighbors as well.

Thereby not needing the police state you so indulge yourself with under the pretense of protection.

What has government ever done for you and got it right? Social Security? Schooling? Trade? Business? Taxation? Security? Illegal Aliens? Drugs? Let me be free to do what I can do best. Watching out for my own interests.

Pancho and Baseballdoc
Hi Pancho, glad you liked some of my earlier post. Too bad you're unable to forsee the future properly. This is because you're a "progressive thinker", one of those "open mind" liberals whose open minds are always filled with crap by some messiah or secular potentate who does your thinking for you.

Also, you're at a handicap because like all liberals you're a product of either a hippie lovein from Woodstock, or a 1970s swinger ggangg bangg, and then you were abandoned by your doped out parents. This is why you feel lost and angry and why you strike out at your country. You need to accept your mental illness and get your head right, man.

Baseballdoc, you are correct. Finally, in December 1972 we did in Vietnam what we should have done in '65 and in the two week Christmas bombing we brought them to their knees. How tragic that it took 7 years and 50,000 guys to die because our spineless rulers were afraid of victory.

I was there in '72 and I can tell you the sky was black with '52s and tactical aircraft.

It's also a shame that Bush dusted off the failed Vietnam strategy of proportionate responses and fretting about world opinion more than he did the loss of Americans.

We need to accept the fact the world hates us because we're the best. We need to stop trying to make them love us. They'll always hate us. F them. Make them respect us.

All the world's in chaos because they're all mongoloid, mouth breathing lower forms of life. There's too many of them. We need to kill lots more Third Worlders and save future American boys and girls.

I wouldn't trade the entire group of 6+billion foreign citizens for one American G.I. I'd push the button, kill them all, eat lunch and take a good long nap.

The rights of criminals outweight

"There is no such thing as a legitimate police investigation." – ACLU

So, I guess if I went out, using my rights to own a gun that contains real bullets and shot one of the local ACLU Lawyers and killed them or shot a democrat like Al Franken. In the Obama world about to be subjected too in 2 weeks, I can expect no police investigation and have an ACLU lawyer represent me for free, using the defense that the investigation into the “alleged” crime was illegal in the eyes of this new interpretation of our laws.

It’s going to be a long 4 years as we are forced to watch our laws be interpreted instead followed, the outcome of which will be more freed criminals released to practice their criminal activities to become possibly better at what they do best, take from others. I guess they are only following the bad example from our politicians, who freely and openly steal from the taxpayers, who look for trouble, generally find it, even if it’s not there, misdiagnosed it and provide an inadequate or ineffectual remedy. Can the American public sue our Congress for malpractice? Then, sign me up.

Rights are Earned !!
Terrorists don't deserve rights for they have Forfeited those rights by there actions. What has happened to the Common Sense that Rights have to be earned by our Actions and Conduct, why should people who break the Law weather Mans Law or Gods Law be given the same rights of those who follow the Law, The Constitution has been manipulated by Liberals to afford equal rights to those who by there own actions don't deserve equal treatment,Consequences for what you do should not afford you equal treatment that those who don't break the law have earned, A Terrorist, Murderer,Child Molester, should not be afforded Constitutional Rights equal to those who live and follow those Laws by there actions. Our Society has become so Liberal that people believe they can do anything with no Consequence and that respect and Honor and Rights don't have to be earned, Libs want it equal until you do something to them and then you find out who should have rights or not,just look at the past Election on how and what they could say about McCain but bring up Obama's past and we were all Narrow minded Conservatives.As a Veteran who has served in the Middle East 82,83& 90,91 believe no Muslim who has killed Americans in a Terroristic act should be Afforded Constitutional Rights. It should be Military Law only that is the determination and outcome for these spineless Fanatically Yellow bellied Muslims who run like Cowards on the Battle field but will attack Defenseless civilians.

Pretty good post
until

>So guess who our agents are going to be focusing on now, especially that we have a Muslim Commander in Chief and a Islamic sympathizing legislature?<

Sorry, but you lost credibility with that zinger.

TAKE NO PRISONERS

.....When General Giap was asked if French soldiers who had surrendered at Dien Bien Phu should be spared he replied, "If we keep killing them, they will stop coming" ...

.....If we had carpet bombed Hanoi and Haiphong in 1965 we would have won the war and saved millions of lives ...take no prisoners .....COLOSSUS

Wake up people, it's not about R vs D
I see a lot of comments here about how liberals have eliminated many of our rights as well. And there are many who oppose the patriot act but support many other invasive government laws and regulations. You're exactly correct!

We need to fight tyranny in all its forms. And right now, we're getting tyranny and big government from both the Rs and the Ds. They both increase both domestic and foreign spending, send us further into debt, steal our money and send it to irresponsible and failed banks, and participate in central economic planning. Both have aggressive foreign policies based on the initiation of violence (see Somalia, etc, for Clinton, and Iraq for Bush), and our fiscally disastrous policy of maintaining troops in most of the world (we have troops in over 70% of all countries). Neither is trying to lift the outrageous regulations on business, and how we live our lives as private citizens.

The rhetoric is different. The politicians are the same. They all want more power, more of your money, more restrictions on you and your life, and fewer on them.

It's not about R vs. D, the politicians have all long since sold out the principles they supposedly stood for. It's about us vs them, the tyranny of the government vs the freedom of the people.

They always try to scare you into giving up your rights and liberties, whether they be personal or economic.

Let's be truly brave, and rise to the example of our ancestors. Let's fight to restore our rights and liberties, because this country is headed down a hole, which has nothing to do with terrorism or recession, and everything to do with unchecked government power.

Let's make the flag stand for freedom again.

Laws Against Terrorism
What I see as the problem with public opinion is this
People such as Ron Paul and Bob Barr are not given equal time in the various medias to explain their positions. The media has great sway over the public and their solutions are not always the correct ones.
js

"Terrorist Rights"
Basically a concept akin to "civil rights of ILLEGAL ALIENS" (aka malfeasant aliens). Basically, the malfeasant alien is unlawfully present in the country, and intends it harm--and has no intrinsic rights other than to be sent to home country (personally, I believe they should also be handed a bill for this service).

Subject: Terrorists' Rights 3?
Related to this issue: Sometimes I wonder if all the blood spilled of our young men in the military is not a cynical exploitation by what President Eisenhower called the Industrial-Military Complex; big contracts to support the unwinnable pseudo-war on terrorism that enriches these companies. I know oil plays a part too, as it is a part of our nation’s strategic economic security concern, but there are more sane ways to secure our thirst for oil than sending our military in harm's way with one arm tied behind their back

Terrorists' Rights 2?
In country, sealing the borders should have been priority #1 within a year of the attack and profiling should be used openly. Immigration policy should be tightened and perform more stringent background checks, especially of the person is muslim This is no time for niceties; that’s exactly what the terrorists rely on and see as a weakness to exploit.

You have no rights
"You have no rights until you've committed a crime." -- Unknown

"There is no such thing as a legitimate police investigation." -- ACLU

Rights for Terrorists?
Ms. Alexander says that people such as Ron Paul do not represent the ajpority of Americans when they speak against the torture of the terrorist prisoners and the wire tapping. Unfortunately, the American people have very little knowledge of what is actually taking place within our government. The American people are being watched by big brother and the umbrella excuse is," we're just trying to keep you safe from terrorists".
I certainly don't mind some sacrafices for freedom but when we use the same tactics that we condemn the Nazis and the terorists for then we become no different than them.
This little trick to call someone a liberal for standing up against government intrusion in our private lives works fine for people who are ignorant of the past and the way government gets control over the citizens lives.
Big brother will know your every move and then when you get a little out of line or a little too wise they will come and get you. You have become a terrorist threat.

if only
in a perfect universe
those who support weighing in favor of terrorists
at the expense of american citizens
would be segregated into specific locations which
would be the first to be attacked.
in a similar vein, those who parole criminals
would be forced to live in a community where
criminals would be released, and forced to live
side by side.
if this measure were adopted we would see
a stark revision of these practices.

Terrorists' Rights?
The liberals/left will be the country’s undoing. Extending the same rights that U.S. citizens have to non-citizen terrorists is nonsensical at the very least and dangerous, very dangerous as a norm. To gain citizenship to this country one has to swear allegiance to the nation. Foreign “combatants” (terrorists) swear to destroy our nation. These low-lifes don’t even qualify for the precepts of the Geneva Convention that applies to the conduct of military personnel in war and which excludes acts of terrorism. For security reasons non-US citizen terrorists must be treated in reciprocal ways that they themselves use: Torture of every kind, exterminating their families, and whatever gets their attention. It’s ugly, yes, but their despicable ways requires “an eye for an eye” approach. When the smoke from 9/11 cleared a small contingent of our special forces should have been organized and stealthily deployed from Pakistan to hunt and kill Osama and his band within a month of the attack on us. As soon as that deed is done, pull back, leave, but continue surgical aerial strikes when necessary. Do not get embroiled in the armpit of that part of the world!

Our borders north and south should have been secured within a year of 9/11 even if it meant stationing troops along the border while they built the fence; troops that should not have been sent to Iraq. Politicians are, once again, irresponsibly not taking the measures necessary to deal with real, demonstrated threats. Fire their sorry carcasses!

essential liberty
FROG writes:
-----------------------
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

That was Benjamin Franklin, a true patriot. True liberty always involves the risk that some may use it as a weapon on others. Give me my unfettered 2nd Amendment rights and I'm more than happy to take the risk."
--------------------------

Totally unarmed citizens successfully brought down one of the planes.

Just imagine how many of those planes on Sep 11th would have gotten to their targets if only 10% of the Americans on the planes had concealed firearms or other tools of self defense.

Old Ben had a clue. Too bad we have given up a lot of our rights over the years.

Ponder this
There is some merit in opposing some expanded enhancements to our authority to surveil, arrest and punish "terrorists".

I'm all for summarily executing foreign nationals, here and abroad, who even think of annoying us. This is only logical.

However, I am not entirely on board with expanded surveillance and investigative capabilities given to the FBI and other law enforcement groups to do so to any and all persons in this country.

Why is this? Think honestly about how America adapted to 9/11. What did we do? Sure, we went to war, but we told our troops not to win because to do so would offend the sensibilities of the Russians, the Chinese, and the "Arab Street". This is why we'll ultimately lose over there, regardless of our current success, a success meant only to keep things quiet until the elections. In the long run, we will crawl out of arabia "with honor" like we did in Vietnam almost 40 years ago.

Over here we exempted the very groups menacing us: Muslims. Think of how we bent over at the waist for that "relion of peace". We have to strip naked and cannot bring Brylcreem on airplanes, while Muslims jerk us around and sue us for responding to their exploratory moves testing our security.

And our agents can now be personally sued for insulting a Muslim.

So guess who our agents are going to be focusing on now, especially that we have a Muslim Commander in Chief and a Islamic sympathizing legislature?

Who's soon to be the new terroris: Ahmed Muhammad, or Joe Smith, NRA member who writes in congressmen complaining about his taxes?

Ahmed as CAIR and ACLU financed lawyers who can reach the estates of agents. Joe Smith doesn't. Who's the path of least resistance?

Ken #10
McCain was not chosen by Republicans. He was chosen by dims and indis in open primaries. The Repubs didn't get a chance to select their candidate.

If the grand caliphate ever comes
here, the libs. will be the first to go.
They won't know what to do if they can't protest, demonstrate, whine, sue, *discover* uncounted votes (there won't be parties to vote for--Islam does not sanction democracy), castigatae the rest of the population as *stupid* and *unsophisticated,* or be idolized as elitists and celebrities.
Or, they will be the must subservient, most spying, most boot-licking schmucks the world has ever seen.

Terrorism Almost Legal
Bob Barr, Ron Paul and other self destructive Criminal and Terrorists Rights Groups have made crime and terrorism almost legal. Granted out of 300,000 incidents, one innocent person is abused but what about the other 299,999? These people who have their heads in the wrong part of their body are ignorantly trying to destroy themselves and the rest of us with them.It is all about having too many martinis then wanting to get publicity as they sit behind guarded doors.

Rights
Those who demand US Constitutional rights for terrorists and civilian combatants (non-uniformed) are liberals.

That means they aren't really sympathetic to the terrorists' cause; they merely want to feel good about themselves.

The libs want to feel sanctimonious, so they assume a posture of universal love and tenderness toward everyone and tell themselves they are "really good people", darn it.

Libs are self-delusional and arrogant. They will end up getting more Americans killed, and the Muslim terrorists will thank them for it (just before they kill them).

Re: Terrorist Rights???
Look, this is what happens when you let a bunch of bleeding heart liberals control things, we start giving rights to murders and the like because we want to be humain and all the ladee ladee dee!!! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE OFF YOUR ROCKER!!! THESE PEOPLE WANT TO KILL YOU!!! LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN-THESE PEOPLE WANT TO KILL YOU!!! They have no remorse and no thought of regrete, so stop thinking that we need to give the rights that AMERICANS enjoy-THEY ARE NOT AMERICANS!!!! They don't have ours rights!!!! Stop drinking the Kool-ade!!!!

Leftists don't care about protecting
*Americans,* as they don't care about protecting Am.

They want something else--Sweden or France, if they must settle for something.
However, France has the Napoleonic Code and does not have to inform anyone of their rights (they don't have a US Const.) and have not had serious bombing as the French can pick you up and hold you without a telephone call within 24 hours or a free lawyer to defend you.
Mexico also has the Nap. Code, and druggies who get jailed for six months before anyone knows they've been missing, have direct knowledge of why terrorists do not much thrive there.
Am. lefistist would not really like either Sweden (very low real crime rate; young people fleeing like rats and sinking ships) or France (almost always in recession as it has no GNP), but they know they hate the old repressive US that only grants them unlimited rights of expression, fundraising, and protest. Hypocrits all.

"It is good...
that we have watchdog groups looking out for our rights and liberties."

Well, maybe.

On my job, I do a lot of research into non-profit groups of all kinds. One thing I have learned is that some of these groups actually work against the thing they purport to protect.

They use high sounding names that seem to mean one thing, but in reality mean something else.

Some of these "watch dog" groups who say they want to protect liberty are lead by people who are or have been members of the communist party in America. So, when a group tries to dismantle America's ability to protect itself under the guise of civil liberties, what it really wants to do is simply render impotent America's law enforcement and military.

What people DO is a much better yardstick for measuring their intent than what they say.

meet the new boss
Just wait and see what the incoming administration does with the executive powers the outgoing adminiistration accumulated. The Obama Biden administration can get off to a running start, without even waiting for new laws to pass, to provide plenty of 'protection'.

I hope no libertarians out there are holding their breath waiting for them to repeal or curtail the Patriot Act. You'll have a long wait.

Rights of the individual
It's easy to scare people into giving up their rights as guaranteed by the constitution. What is the difference if a government controls us by "giving " us things, as Obama promised, to make us beholden to that government or it scares us into control, as Bush did, by taking away basic rights. We as a society are too quick to allow government to run our lives.We need to stop being afraid and we need to stop looking at government for solutions to our personal problems. We need to find the individualality that made this country great.

Constitutionla Rights
I do not believe we are morally obligated to extend our rights to non citizens particularly ones who attempt to kill us.
The Geneva convention has seldom been observed, and when we capture terrorists on our soil , or soil that we are engaged in with troops, we are not obligated to extend our Bill of Rights or constitutional privileges to them at all.

Sorry, but the argument does not hold water.

Change is coming
Now that the Dems have won, you will hear very little about the Patriot Act infringing on our rights. They now have total responsibility to prevent another terrorist attack. In fact, I bet you will see the next revision to the Patriot Act will be more intrusive than the current version. They will add more liberal spin to justify giving additional powers to the government. It will be amazing how quiet the ACLU will become with the new Administration.

That's my guess.

Gregdn writes:
How do you 'know' this Rachel? Because your almighty government told you?
This is a pretty lame article even by TH standards.

And that's a pretty lame statement, even by lib standards.

BTW, I'm sure that after 01/20/2009, libs will be staying government statements are the Gospel truth, because Obugout and his people make them.

Rachel:
"So even though we all know the Guantanamo detainees have been aiding and abetting terrorists whose sole goal in life is to kill U.S. citizens..."

How do you 'know' this Rachel? Because your almighty government told you?
This is a pretty lame article even by TH standards.

The slippery slope . . . ?
That quote by Franklin . . . about the dangers of giving up liberty for security . . . is trotted out every time somebody gets paranoid about our own government allegedly being a greater threat to our liberty than the terrorists who demonstrably want to cripple our economy, and, thereby, destroy our ability to adequately finance our own defense.
Here is another quote: "The Constitution, with its Bill of Rights, is NOT a suicide pact" . . . designed to give our enemies the freedom of movement they need to undermine and destroy us.
ILLIBERAL "Liberals", and even some right-wing isolationists, always repeat the cliche that they will, "fight to the death for your right to . . . blah, blah, blah". Coming from THOSE people, however, such drivel really is a rhetorical sham. Most of them will not actually FIGHT for anything . . . except with their mouths and hot air. At the first indication of physical danger to themselves, they will plead for "negotiations".

Jeffersonian Constitutionalist: post #1
The difference between an "enemy combatant" and a "terrorist" is the wearing of a uniform, so as to be recognised on the "field of conflict". (And no, a kaffidah or ski-mask does not constitute a "uniform".) The T has NO constitutional rights in this country. The EC should be treated consistant to the Geneva Accords. (as amended) The closest that either get to being designated a "criminals" is an EC commiting war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc. ALL terrorists are commiting crimes against humanity and thus should not be treated as ECs or mere criminals. If there were no differences between federal laws and international laws, there wouldn't be seperate Federal Courts (in the US) and an International Court. (in Belgium)
War is the disproportionate act of (attempted) mutual destruction, commited between nations-states, and adhering to international agreements. (such as the Geneva Accords) Terrorism is the act(s) of inflicting extreme fear, to immorally force people to capitulate to conditions and/or demands, by (internationally recognised) extra-legal means, upon innocent bystanders. (mass murder, indiscriminate bombing of civilian sites, forcible imposition of inhumane conditions, etc)
I believe war, terrorism and criminal acts are three seperate acts that require individual responses. Criminal acts are the violation of domestic law by an individual or a group. (RICO) Terrorism & war are defined above.
To treat a terrorist like a mere criminal would be like treating a rabid dog like a puppy who just "piddled" on the carpet. Then taking the "piddling puppy" outside and putting a bullet into it's skull. The punishment should be proportionate to the act.
(Wobby, this also answers your rhetorical question, but my New Year's resolution is to stop feeding the lib-turd trolls. Please disregard any enlightenment I may have provided.)

Ahhh. the slippery slope!
Try this quote, Ms Alexander:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

That was Benjamin Franklin, a true patriot. True liberty always involves the risk that some may use it as a weapon on others. Give me my unfettered 2nd Amendment rights and I'm more than happy to take the risk.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

What happened to my right to protection?
First, it is a government by the people, for the people (e.g. U.S. citizens) The Constitution is for us, not citizens of other lands, unless they hold dual citizenship.

Gitmo detainees are a threat to the West, especially the U.S.A. and Israel. Their goal is not protecting their lands, instead it is annihilated us via our liberal laws, and demographics (Arafat).

Wake-up and stop singing Cumbaya.

Constitutional Rights?

There is, to any SANE mind, a fundamental difference between the essential rights the Constitution spells out . . . and the PROCEDURAL regulations passed by legislatures, written by bureaucrats or demanded by judges, that dictate the specific red-tape required to PROCESS individual cases. Unfortunately, the "legal community" and the judiciary have become so obsessed with minutiae, they are often incapable of seeing the "forest" because they are too busy focusing on the individual "trees".
I have a fairly large library of books on a host of legal cases, and, there is no question that legitimate evidence has sometimes been thrown out, and a significant number of demonstrably guilty people have escaped prosecution . . . NOT because their essential CONSTITUTIONAL rights were violated . . . but rather, because of trivial reasons . . . such as a perfectly innocent and inadvertent mistake made by the police, prosecution or courts in abiding by some nit-picking PROCEDURAL regulation about how the defendant's paperwork was supposed to be handled . . . in some cases, a signature being in the wrong place on a required form, or other -- seemingly minor -- mistakes in documents. I know, because in a former job, I used to COPY documents for attorneys, and I studied many of their cases.
All the Constitutional rights, privacy laws and due-process protections in the world are not going to do us any good if we are DEAD from a terrorist's bomb, and the same people, who are now complaining about how our rights are being eroded by the government, are the same people who would be screaming . . . after their own family was killed in an attack . . . that the governnment did "not do enough" to find
terrorists.

Communist government - Part 2
In all, the government has spent at least a million dollars on legal costs just to make sure that I never held a job in the United States. The campaign against veterans was so successful that the homeless veteran became a familiar sight in every American city. George W. Bush (conservative) has continued to this policy against the servicemen he sent to Iraq, and many of them have chosen suicide to avoid the fate of so many Vietnam War veterans. The money Congress appropriates for them winds up being divided up as "merit bonuses" among the civil servants who routinely deny services to veterans.
The author of this article is now telling me that the U.S. government is my friend and wants to protect me from terrorism by giving itself the power to seize anyone on the street on nothing more than suspicion and lock them up for life without a trial. The KGB used to do this in the Soviet Union, and their rule is rightfully regarded as state terrorism.
The U.S. government has seen to it that I have no civil liberties, and nobody can convince me that it wants to protect me from terrorists. Government agents simply want the power over the rest of us that Communist functionaries enjoyed over the citizens in their countries.

Communist government - Part 1
This article presents great arguments for completing the transition of the United States to a Communist state. I fought against the Communists in Vietnam for more than one tour of duty, and because John Kerry (liberal) said that all of us are war criminals, I have been denied all employment opportunities in the United States for more than 40 years.
I was never accused, received no trial, and was never pronounced guilty. I am not a war criminal. In fact, many more of the enemy I was fighting were actually war criminals than American and allied servicemen were. The Communists bombed and rocketed cities indiscriminately, disguised themselves as civilians when attacking, murdered civilians, used civilians as human shields, and tortured American war prisoners. Because they were so successful at committing terrorist acts and war crimes, Nixon (conservative) handed Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia over to them, allowing them to murder about 4 million people during the first two years of their rule. Successive presidents (liberal and conservative) have since blacklisted me and about a million other veterans for fighting against the Communists to please militant feminists (liberals) and conservatives who dodged the draft and do not want their job security threatened by veterans with preference rights. That is why I have had to live in Europe, South America, and Southeast Asia in order to find employment for the 40 years since I received my honorable discharge. I sued government agencies several times for overt employment discrimination, and each time, I was denied my right to take my case to a jury by both liberal and conservative judges to save the government lawyers the disgrace of losing.

In comparison to what?
I can't agree with you totally on this one Rachel, honest elections? Are any of you aware of that our Republican party illegally changed the rules in 12 states to assure John McCain as the candidate of choice? He was pushed forward for us -- NOT chosen by us for petes sake. You say we are the most free country........ in comparison to ??? how free we used to be? More free than Russia or Canada? Our standard should be the Constitution not a communist or socialist state my fellow conservative. Let's not settle shall we? I leave you with a quote:

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Thomas Jefferson


WHAT THE H-LL DO YOU EXPECT?
SEEMS TO ME THIS COUNTRY HAS GIVEN "RIGHTS" TO ILLEGAL ALIENS, CONVICTED KILLERS AND CHILD MOLESTERS(they can even get a college education)SO WHY NOT GIVE TERRORIST "RIGHTS TO KILL AS MANY OF US AS THEY WANT , HELL SEND THEM TO DISNEY WORLD AND SO WE WONT BE CALLED CRULE AMERICANS.

Denise from LA

Denise you make a good point.

All we hear from the left is complaints about loss of freedom. Yet, the Patriot Act hasn't negatively affected my life, and 99.9% of all americans in any way.

At the same time, these self appointed guardians of our freedom, want to ban certain fast foods, ban cigarette smoking, ban alcohol consumption in public places, ban school choice, ban secret union elections by workers, dictate what energy efficent applicances we can buy, mandate the size of automobiles, mandate bathroom toliets, increase taxes on Gasoline, soda, cell phones, and the internet.

From what I see the biggest threat to my everyday freedoms is what Liberals advocate.

Rules of War
If we declared war against the terrorists and the various countries or entities who harbored them (Barbary pirates-look it up), any combatant who is not wearing an identifiable uniform is subject to being shot as a spy without a hearing or trial of any sort. This is what should have been done with the Gitmo prisoners. This is what they deserve now.

Treating terrorists in this manner would deny them honor and hamper recruiting. Treating them as criminals is nuts-so are liberals.

Liberty?
Curfews?
Open container laws?
DWI roadblocks?
Punitive taxes on tobacco and alcohol?
Motorcycle helmet laws?
Can't use cell phone while driving?
Motor vehicle inspection laws?
Can't do your own plumbing?
Can't do your own wiring?

Where are all these libertarians when these laws were passed?
What happened to probable cause?

USA
I'm sorry but at 66 years of age I don't feel that much matters anymore about our once great country. The slow decline has increased to a rapid ending that is beyond stopping in my opinion.

Those who give up liberty ...
It is not so much that I am worried about rights for honest to goodness terrorists, it is that I am worried about the expansion of government power.

Remember, who defines what a terrorist is? That's right, the government -- and there have been moves recently to expand the definition to include many forms of peaceful civil disobedience.

Perhaps you believe the Bush administration is only acting in everyone's interests, and wishes only to protect the innocent. Very well, but what about the next administration, and the one after?

What happens when we get a power hungry commander in chief, or one who does not mind using the full force of the government for his own personal and political interests?

Are you comfortable with all these powers in the hands of that future leader?

There is a reason that Franklin pointed out the dangers of giving up liberty for a little temporary safety. We and our ancestors have fought long and hard for these liberties, both economic and personal. Let's not toss them away over our fears over terrorism or any economic crisis.

I would rather a tiny percentage risk of dying in an attack, than an assured loss of the personal liberties and restraints on government that our ancestors died for. And, I would rather lose my job and live through a recession than lose my economic freedom to central economic planning.

Let's be truly patriotic, and stand up against the destruction of those principles that are truly American: Liberty and Freedom. I would willingly lose life, limb, and wallet in the defense of them. Would you?


Civ. Lib. for Libs.
"When critics say that terrorist prevention “weakens our civil liberties,” what do they mean?"

Of course, some retards don't want to "weaken our civil liberals" when fighting terrorism, but care little if the government mandates transponders on American cars to tax driving miles... or, taxes our cheeseburgers... or taxes anything that moves. It seems that sincce our tax dollars are funding civil liberties only for terrorists and we should demand a refund. American tax dollars should protect AMERICANS first.

It is about darn time that Americans start worrying about "liberty" period because terrorists could care less about "civility".

Sounds like...
... a mid-term exam written by a college freshman. Yawn!

Differences

One of the deficentcies the liberal mins has is understanding the differences between a terrorist and enemy combantants. One is a crime and one is an act of war.

A criminal has one set of rights. An enemy combantant has different set of rights.

Liberals have long suffered from an inability to view complex issues with clarity. It has something to do with the way their brain is wired.

They prefer to lump them all together and treat all the same without reguard to consequences. They prefer a "one size fits all" solution. Again another failing of the liberal mind, is to not understand the long term effects of their actions.

I am afraid as issues and solutions become more and more complex in our technological world, the average liberal mind will be unable to keep up with changing conditions.
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