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Thursday, October 23, 2008
Paul  Edwards :: Townhall.com Columnist
The New Confessing Church
by Paul Edwards
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It used to be that a “confessing church” was a church known for its adherence to the great theological confessions from church history. Not any more. Kensington Community Church, a seeker megachurch in suburban Detroit, is bringing a whole new meaning to “confessing church” by joining the bandwagon of churches who think the time has long past for the church to apologize to the culture for being the church. On Sunday, October 19, 2008 this church began a weekend message series titled, “Confessions of a Sinful Church.”

The very idea of a “sinful church” is oxymoronic. Christ gave Himself for the church so that He might cleanse it with the Word of God and present it to Himself a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27), evidence that market research is defining our own perception of the church rather than the Bible.

It should be noted that this idea of begging the cultures’ pardon didn’t originate with Kensington Church. Google their series title and you’ll be introduced to a dozen or more churches across the country that have discovered the latest fad sure to increase your worship attendance created by the psychologically-driven church growth movement: be sorry—be very sorry—for preaching a gospel that rubs the culture the wrong way.

So just how has the church so offended the culture that it warrants such a public apology? Well, it seems there are variations of seven or eight sins the church is guilty of, but never more than five are ever presented by any of the churches confessing them. Evidently the attention span of today’s seeker isn’t longer than five weekends on any one subject.

In February and March of this year Rolling Hills Community Church in Danville, California confessed that the church has been self-righteous and hypocritical, supported racial segregation, mistreated homosexuals, fought bloody crusades and argued that the earth is flat.

At the end of September, Tillman Road Church of God in Fort Wayne, Indiana began a series confessing the church’s sins of being hypocritical, anti-homosexual, judgmental, sheltered, too focused on getting converts and too political.

As for Kensington, their five confessions focus on being sorry for being self-righteous hypocrites, for judging others, for despising homosexuality and for caring only about converting people.

Whoever created this package of confessions missed the point that most of these so-called “sins” are nothing more than liberal media stereotypes of conservative, evangelical, gospel-preaching churches whose real sin is offending the sensitivities of the culture by maintaining their faithfulness to the Word of God.

I’m not arguing that people who profess to be followers of Jesus have never been self-righteous, hypocritical and judgmental. There may be pockets of such behavior and a minority of local churches who fit that description. But the media has taken these exceptions and made them the standard by which all churches are defined. Kensington, along with these other churches, is encouraging you and me to apologize for a stereotype.

The fact that “research says the majority of people now view Christianity as hypocritical, intolerant and even hateful,” only proves how effective mass media is in creating perceptions. Since when do we shape our ministries in response to the latest survey of pagans by Barna Research rather than by divine revelation as revealed in sacred scripture?

Any church that takes a stand in defense of the unborn and for traditional marriage will be accused of being “too political.” Any church which has homosexuals in a list along with thieves, alcoholics and adulterers (as the word of God does—1 Corinthians 6:9-11) will be accused of mistreating homosexuals. Any church that teaches a literal six-day creation and a young earth will be viewed as archaic and out of touch with the mainstream of scientific research (read: evolutionary theory).

And while I personally don’t know any Christians in any church who do not believe the slave trade was cruel and hideous, I feel no personal responsibility for it, though I am rightly ashamed of any part my ancestors may have played in propagating it. No amount of remorse on my part for their crimes against humanity will erase the history, no matter how politically correct an apology may be.

As for the church being focused on getting converts, I thought that was the whole point (see Matthew 28:19-20).

Truth be told, none of these “confessing” churches believe that they themselves are guilty of these sins. They believe your church is guilty of these sins. This pre-packaged series of sermons is designed to help you and your church see the error of your ways while keeping their church from ever being as offensive to sinners as your church, because from the perspective of these churches, the one sin to be avoided at all costs is the failure to be liked by the culture. And the culture likes them a lot when they point out the speck of dust in your eye.

When the church is the Church, living out her character and calling as mandated by God’s word rather than the whims of a secular culture, it will offend. The gospel we proclaim has its origin in divine revelation. It is foolishness to Gentiles. It is a stumbling block to Jews. The Founder of the Church, the Author and Finisher of our faith, warned that, because of Him, the world would persecute us (John 15:20-21) and hate us (John 15:18) because it hates Him.

More often than not, the church will find itself at odds with the prevailing culture on any number of issues. They can ignore the hard truth we preach by writing us off as judgmental, causing us to ask self-reflectively, “Who, after all, are we to judge?”

This is who we are: we are the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. The church is defined not by the failure of some in living up to this high calling. We have been eternally defined by the infallible, inerrant and perfect Word of God personified in the Word made flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ. Our mandate is to preach the Word, not waste our time apologizing for it to a self-obsessed culture under the guise of “humble orthodoxy.”

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About The Author

Paul Edwards is the host of The Paul Edward Program and a pastor. His program is heard daily on WLQV in Detroit and on godandculture.com

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PC Insanity
An apology can only be rendered by the party that delivers the offense. If these Churches are guilty of these offenses by all means apologize. If they are arrogant enough to believe they represent Christianity as a whole they are mistaken.

We must avoid following the world...
for He is not of this world!

"And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world." (Joh 8:23 NASB)

We should take note of Paul's advice to the Colossians:
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." (Col 2:8 NASB)

Seeking the public's approbation over God's will ultimately lead to destruction.

Sinful Church Indeed!
Any church that must base its' positions in the temporal world has no standing in the eternal. Money is the only thing these "apologists" seek, not the true Word of God. Their foundation is "built on sand."

THE CHURCH IS THE CHURCH !
THE LIGHT SHINES ON THE DARKNESS.THE DEVIL CANT HANDLE THE LIGHT OR THE TRUTH,TOUGH!!!

Salt's Theology
The way I understand Jesus:

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
God demonstrated His love for us in this: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
We are saved by grace not by works, lest any man should boast.
Jesus gave us a new commandment, that we should love one another.
We should extend the same grace to others that we have received from Christ.

Love to all.

Let's see...
... Offend sinners by pointing out that their behavior is sinful; or offend God by not doing so.

Hmmmm... That's a tough choice.

I think I'll stick with offending sinners as opposed to offending God. That seems the better career move.

The role of the Church
The role of any church is to encourage men to follow God's will, not the reverse.

For example, when a priest (minister, rabbi, imam, whatever, I'll use priest from here on, because I'm Catholic) says that homosexual ACTS are wrong and gravely sinful, even if homosexual THOUGHTS and URGES are, in and of themselves, not, he is trying to mold men to God's will. (Those who have the urges should not be so weak as to succumb to them.)

On the other hand, when a priest says that homosexual acts are now OK (even though they hadn't been before), and engaging in them is a right and proper thing to do if one is predisposed to that sort of thing, that is molding God to man's will. Aside from heresey (preaching a doctrine contrary to that of the Church) that priest also commits the sin of scandal (i.e.: leading others into sin.)

Happy Jake
I agree with you. I'll try to satisfy God any day rather than the people. And there is NO WAY I'm going to insist that man can change God.

I think that is one of the things too many liberals believe. "If enough of us believe this is not a sin, then God has to agree."

Not me!

I wonder
how many MEMBERS of these churches agree with the appologies. And I wonder if the persons doing the appologies are expecting to attract new members by doing so? I don't think I would want to join a church that says all of its members were like that.

LOL...let them apologize.......
who cares.....?

the chaffe will be separated from the wheat.....

LOL...let them apologize.......
who cares.....?

the chaffe will be separated from the wheat.....

A crisis of confidence
It sounds to me like they are suffering from a crisis of confidence. They aren't sure who they are or who they want to be. They are at a loose end.

error of biblical proportions
"We have been eternally defined by the infallible, inerrant and perfect Word of God personified in the Word made flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ."

Yeah that is the problem now isn't it. You are defined by a contradiction. The "infallible, inerrant and perfect Word of God," on the one hand. Scientific, verifiable proof of error on the other.

Let's see....
"hypocritical, anti-homosexual, judgmental, sheltered, too focused on getting converts and too political...."

I've only got a problem with #1. As for the rest -- amen!

God does not need a consensus
45caliber wrote:

'I think that is one of the things too many liberals believe. "If enough of us believe this is not a sin, then God has to agree."'

I hadn't thought of it that way before, but you are exactly right, liberals think if they can say there is a consensus or they have a majority, well then the majority rules!

God does not seek YOUR approval and somehow I doubt that Heaven is a democracy.

Cults...
Of course they think they are right and everybody else is wrong. All tribes are ethnocentric...

Almost all the churches, in the US, caved in to Woodstock, and are now cults, growing out of the US post-Judeo Christian tribalism...

If they did what what was necessary to be orthodox, the churches would be empty next week...

Christian Hell On Earth
"God does not seek YOUR approval and somehow I doubt that Heaven is a democracy."

Well said and creepy. It is because heaven is depicted as a tyrannical totalitarian dictatorship that us Atheists are so worried about Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews...etc... desire to create a heaven here on earth.

As for the God approval thing, Santa clause doesn't seek your approval either and for the same reason, they are both made up buggy men to frightened little children into behaving well. Unfortunately many grown ups can only out grow Santa clause, but still believe in god. Sad really, especially since many of the same argue that they believe in him so that they don't misbehave. i.e. they never established a sense of write and wrong independent of fear of a fairy tail.

And maybe for this reason alone we atheists should be the biggest supporters of some type of religious faith. Clearly while we seem t be able to tell right from whore with out a scary story, most people need one. If only they could believe in a story which didn't also support some truly evil ideas, like stoning disobedient children, and such.

uber
"It is because heaven is depicted as a tyrannical totalitarian dictatorship that us Atheists are so worried about Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews...etc... desire to create a heaven here on earth."

That argument cuts both ways. Many of us Christians are worried about you atheists creating a dictatorship - and we should. Judging from what I've read from their posts on TH, most atheists care about no one's rights but their own. Atheism has killed far more people than Christianity.

Toleration
Within the Church sin is not to be tolerated. Toleration of what God has defined as sin acts like yeast that effects the whole ball of dough. It causes arrogance.
Does this include those coming to church to find out who Jesus is? No! Does this include unbelievers outside of the church? No! Unless their lives involve crime. As United States citizens it is the duty of Christians to vote according to God's statutes. (A Christian should not be voting for a strip club to move into their community,or human life to be destroyed in the womb or the legalization of single sex marriage).

Unbelievers that choose to be moral will live happier more fulfilling lives but they will miss out in eternity.

There should be a careful study of the 7 churches in Revelation.

Chirstian Butchers
"Atheism has killed far more people than Christianity."

How many people have been killed because they were not Atheists?

Christians have killed far more people, for not being christian than, any Atheist has killed for not being an Atheist.

In fact, as we speak, Christians are busy in a genocide in Africa, killing and persecuting people accused of witch craft.

We are talking about tens of thousands in the Congo, and hundreds in South Africa, and many more in other nations across Africa.

And interestingly, Sarah Palin's church brought in an Arfican witch hunter to pray for her and protect her from witch's.

And this is not only confined to Africa, but, which hunting and killing is on the rise around the world, including India.

uber...
uber...

What you are opposing about God isn’t true…

God is big enough to have a world of 6 billion people, each person with enough freedom of thought to have their own opinion, and some like you are free to oppose God and talk about God in a skeptical manner, and others follow God. Some obey God out of fear and some want a love relationship with God…

There are the gods of the nations, that are Satan and spirits, some of whom follow God and others oppose God that run the planet and rule the nations, guiding some nations toward God and others guiding nations away from God…

You just need to read it with a more animistic perspective…

Read all of Job chapter 1…

One day when the angels came to present themselves before the LORD and Satan came with them, The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

God doesn’t even know what Satan is doing until he tells him…

uber
"Christians have killed far more people, for not being christian than, any Atheist has killed for not being an Atheist."

That's a dodge. Atheists have killed far more people than Christians, period.

"And interestingly, Sarah Palin's church brought in an Arfican witch hunter to pray for her and protect her from witch's."

The witch hunter actually PRAYED??? Horror of horrors! Does Sarah Palin's church think the Constitution guarantees them religious freedom or something?

P.S. In case you've forgotten, the Constitution does guarantee religious freedom. Get over it.


Chas
God knows everything, including what Satan is doing, since He allows him some leeway until he's thrown in the lake of fire. It was more a rhetorical question.

Uber, just because some people in history and in the present use the term "christian" to justify their cruelty doesn't mean they are truly Christians. There's more to following Christ than a title. You know that, but are using the misinformation as a weapon..it won't work with those of us who are followers of Christ.
These churches that substitute heresy for the
gospel aren't truly Christian..Christianity is about the CROSS and HIM CRUCIFIED. By overlooking sinfulness and excusing it, they are denying Christ's atonement for all mankinds sins. These pastors that are pushing this doctrine are in grave eternal danger fol leading their flocks astray.
My husband's grandfather was American Indian, so
am I to understand that to be in right standing in these psuedo christian cults, he must apologize to himself for the percieved sins of his white ancestors in pioneering the west? And the indian side, must accept his other side's apology..shades of Obama, at war with his
dual races.

Confessions of a Sinful Church
As a Kensinton attender, let me briefly comment on Paul's article. We don't apologize for what we believe, but rather for how we've behaved -- by misrepresenting Jesus to the world. Jesus said the world would know us by our love, yet surveys (and our own observations)show people view us as hypocritical, intolerant, and hateful. That's either God's fault or our fault, and since he's infallible, it's probably ours! Hence, the apology. Speaking only for our own local church, we are apologizing to those who have been offended not by the cross, but by the joking and judging they've received from the Christians they've encountered (including us). We are reaching out to all those who are far from God by extending his unconditional love and forgiveness to them, not by behavior modification but by a living relationship with Jesus Christ. By doing some serious soul searching, we realized that we've said and done things that have dishonored Jesus concerning the people he died for -- especially those who don't look like us or vote like us or live like us. We admit that we have put shameful stumbling blocks between them and God in the past, and we are simply saying, "We're sorry for ignoring you or marginalizing you when we should have been praying for you and doing works of compassion within your community." None of us are immune to predjudice, so we've added a new topic to the series,"We're Sorry for Discriminating Against Muslims." Rather than pointing an angry, condemning finger at people who disagree with us, we are taking a posture of humility, respect, and teachability with them. Apologizing is only the first step, but we believe it's important to admit our failures upfront as we extend God's grace. After all, we are just broken people who are struggling to live fully surrendered to God. As Christians, we absolutely believe in pursuing biblical truth, but we are absolutely sorry for often speaking that truth without love.

Good word, Pastor
I will peruse the comments at my leisure and deconstruct any in need of it.

I can say immediately, however, that, in my opinion, the REFUSAL of the FAITHFUL and SCRIPTURAL CHURCH to warrant, legitimize and validate homosex is the FOCAL POINT of the split in the GOP and the Republic.

I will also suggest that we live in times where the Faithful Church may need to start asking Questions about the Interface of Revival and Revolution in Our Constitutional Republic.

The Big Mick

Tea Party...
"God knows everything, including what Satan is doing."

That comes from our theology...

When our theology disagrees with the actual main point of what the stories in the bible are saying, I ignore the theology and try to understand the scriptures…

The main point of the story about Moses talking to God on the mountain and receiving the Ten Commandments is this…

Exodus chapter 33 the whole chapter:

“The LORD said to Moses, I will send my angel before you… But I will not go with you because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way…

Moses said to the LORD, Remember this nation is your people…

The Lord replied, My presence will go with you and I will give you rest…

Then Moses said to him If your presence does not go with us do not send us up from here…

And the LORD said to Moses I will do the very thing you have asked because I am pleased with you and I know you by name”… NIV

That disagrees with our theology…


Karl 6:39
I'll come back to deconstruct you more throughly later, but your first obvious inanity is: “people view us as hypocritical, intolerant, and hateful. That's either God's fault or our fault, and since he's infallible, it's probably ours.”

That’s a false dilemma, Karl! There is an obvious 3rd choice and it is THE BIBLICAL one. The fault is not yours, not God’s BUT THEIRS!
“If they hated me, they will hate you!” You need to expand your awareness of the Jesus material somewhat! “The light has come into the darkness but men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.” “Blessed are you when men speak all manner of evil against you FALSELY for my name sake, for so they treated the PROPHETS before you!”

If YOU did something, Karl, confess it SPECIFICALLY To the SPECIFIC PERSON YOU DID IT TO, make restitution, seek reconcilliation, do penance if necessary and MOVE ON! General confession of institutional sins is not only a cop out, it is disingenuous.
"No longer shall you say, our father's ate sour grapes and their children's teeth are set on edge, for each man will suffer for HIS OWN sins."

The Big Mick

Karl…
You are products of a deficient atheist public school system and are apologizing for things you are incapable of understanding…

Apologize to the unsaved?
Right.

I'm not apologizing for anything
My people go back here to the French and Indian wars and have given enough blood to water a nation of roses.

And until WW II, we were just backwoods NJ Pineys, dirt farmers, people who thought holding a mortgage was a sin, who stayed out of debt, and didn't need a contract because our word was our bond.

I always say I come from excellent white trash.

So, when Congressman Murdtha calls PA'ers racists and rednecks, he forgets the Marines are manned by a whole bunch of us, and we even come in colors, as there were black Pineys as well as whoever else put up a shack in the woods and lived by hunting and their wits, before the great cityfolk started building suburbs a gadzillion miles from their skyscrapers and using up the land.

We are now teachers and engineers and lawyers, but the land is in the blood.

So, when Jon Stewart and his ilk mock Palin as living in the woods and yelling f-you at her, we will be saying f-you back on Nov. 4.

Vote McCain/Palin for believable change in DC.

karl deconstructed p2
Karl writes: “We don't apologize for what we believe, but rather for how we've behaved”
No, Karl, YOU REPENT SPECIFICALLY of what YOU DID TO the Person you did it TO! No “WE” about it.
“ by misrepresenting Jesus to the world”

And precisely HOW did you do THAT? Jesus, on more that one occasion “point[ed] an angry, condemning finger at people who disagree with HIM! Especially on MORAL Issues!
“White washed tombs!” “You don’t know the Scriptures OR God!” Forget about the Temple Cleansing did we? Do a little word study on how often Jesus got piszd, Karl.

“Jesus said the world would know us by our love”
Karl, I don’t know what your “church” THINKS it’s doing but it sure as HELL ain’t teaching you SCRIPTURE! Read the dang TEXT, Karl, John 13:34-35, what’s the context? Who is he talking to? Who is the “one another”? He’s talking about Disciples! Karl. The love of CHRISTIANS for one another! He ain’t sayin a dang THING about what people see in our attitudes toward Muslims or Perverts! Maybe you can get that out of some OTHER text, but not THAT one.
Your hermeneutic is in need of some serious work, Karl.

cont. tbm

Karl deconstructed p3
“Speaking only for our own local church, we are apologizing to those who have been offended not by the cross, but by the joking”??? Huh??
“and judging”
What judging? Like “that’s sin and you ain’t supposed to, ‘go and sin no more’”?
Does this mean the Racists can be offended at you for “judging” them? How about child molesters? Polygamists?

“they've received from the Christians they've encountered (including us).”

NOW your talking out of both sides of your mouth! Are you REPENTING (apology is not necessarily a CHRISTIAN concept, Repentance IS, Reconciliation IS) “ONLY FOR OUR OWN LOCAL CHURCH” or for “THE CHRISTIANS THEY’VE ENCOUNTERED”–WHICH IS IT?
I tell you again that I consider it to be New Testament teaching that YOU can repent ONLY for SPECIFIC ACTS KARL has committed and Reconciliation MUST be sought from those INDIVIDUALS SPECIFICALLY sinned against!

cont mick

Karl deconstructed p4
“We are reaching out to all those who are far from God by extending his unconditional love and forgiveness to them, not by behavior modification but by a living relationship with Jesus Christ.”

Are you implying that you EXPECT no modification of behavior? That CHRIST does not? “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who DOES THE WILL of My Father in Heaven.” “He who HAS my Commandments and KEEPS them, he it is that loves me, and he who loves me will be loved by my Father and I will love him.”
What then is your Doctrine of Sanctification? Of Regeneration? Is there NO accountability for the FRUITS of REPENTANCE?
Ya sure as hell ain’t Wesleyan!

“ By doing some serious soul searching, we realized that we've said and done things that have dishonored Jesus concerning the people he died for -- especially those who don't look like us or vote like us or live like us.”

How the Hell have you “offended” those who don’t look you? By parting your hair in the middle? How the Hell do you “dishonor Jesus” by NOT looking like somebody ELSE?
How the HELL do you know how somebody ELSE VOTES! And how in the HELL are you SUPPOSED to LIVE if NOT UNLIKE PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH live!
DANG, Karl, have you even READ the New Testament? Practically the WHOLE dang THING is TEACHING CHRISTIANS THAT THEY AIN’T SUPPOSED TO LIVE LIKE OTHER PEOPLE!! How the HELL are you “dishonoring” Jesus by NOT living like the World?
You simply enlarge my idea of the possibilities inherent in ignorance, Karl!

cont. tbm

Karl 5
“We admit that we have put shameful stumbling blocks between them and God in the past”

Who is WE, Karl? YOU? What “stumbling blocks”, BE SPECIFIC! HOW, be specific, are they “shameful”. How did YOUR specific action, specifically put a block between what SPECIFIC PERSON and God?

“and we are simply saying, "We're sorry for ignoring you or marginalizing you when we should have been praying for you and doing works of compassion within your community."

WHO, Karl, who have YOU ignored? Why? Who have you “marginalizid”? HOW did you do that? WHAT SPECIFIC “community” did you NOT pray for or NOT do works of compassion in? WHAT SHOULD you have prayed? WHAT works SHOULD you have DONE?

“None of us are immune to predjudice,”
That includes the “communities” you SAY you have “ignored” or neglected.

“so we've added a new topic to the series,"We're Sorry for Discriminating Against Muslims."

Now how in the HELL did you do THAT? By NOT making sure they had the soft seats at COMMUNION!?!
This may come as a shock to you, Karl, but THEY think you are an INFIDEL and fit only for Conversion, forced or no, or Slaughter and consignment to Hell.
the big mick

K6
“Rather than pointing an angry, condemning finger at people who disagree with us”

What like Jesus did?

”we are taking a posture of humility, respect, and teachability with them”

Humility sure, respect maybe, for the person NOT the behavior, but “teachability”?
We have ONE teacher, Karl. Our minds are to be conformed to HIS not to the World!

“Apologizing is only the first step, but we believe it's important to admit our failures upfront as we extend God's grace.”

What “failures”, Karl, be SPECIFIC.

“After all, we are just broken people who are struggling to live fully surrendered to God.”

Good, that’s as it SHOULD be! Now do you expect the PEOPLE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TO DO THE SAME?!? Or are they OK in their NOT “fully surrendered” state in perpetuity?
Do you EXPECT them to ENGAGE the struggle, or are you telling them, THEY don’t HAVE to?

“As Christians, we absolutely believe in pursuing biblical truth, but we are absolutely sorry for often speaking that truth without love.”
Be specific, Karl, WHAT TRUTH and HOW “without love”? Stanley Hauerwas, the foremost Christian Ethicist at Duke, has a saying all his disciples repeat often: “NAME THE SIN!”
Until YOU do Karl, you guys are just, to quote the guy who discipled me, “throwin dust in the air.”

The Big Mick

Hope and despair...
God wants you and you must change...

is hope...

God wants you and you don't need to change...

is despair...

Night cap on bona fides
The Big Mick has an M.Div. from Duke Divinity and 15 years experience as a Pastor in the Wesleyan Tradition.

I not only got street cred on this, I got SAY!

The Big Mick

bigmick - I had a little less...
I was evangelical 40 years then went to a Wesleyan tradition college full time for three years 3.8 g.p.a. and did everything but the fourth year internship to be a missionary...

They said everybody has to be in therapy with a councelor, turned my wife feminist, and it broke up my twenty year traditional marriage about nine years ago...

I havent been back to church since...


The Church
Amen brother!!! Well said.

my 2 cents
There is only ONE true church. It was established 2,000 years or so ago at the last supper. Its founder, Jesus Christ, promised to be with it until the end of time.

Since His ascension it has been run by human beings who are fallible and who screw up frequently, sometimes to the extent that Jesus has to step in and fix things.

There are more than 1,000,000,000 of us and we soldier on day to day and we have been blessed by almighty God with two of the greatest Popes of the last century, in fact PJPII is called "Pope John Paul The Great" and it was so three years before his death, and that designation has been used only three times in 2,000 years so it means something. Of all the many things he said over his lifetime and his pontificate there are three that stay with me -

Be Not Afraid

I refer of course to the Catholic Church.

FYI - I am a practicing Catholic.

Thank God (literally) ...
... there are now churches, Protestant and Cathloic, willing to stand up and say we ARE the church, we WILL preach the Gospel, we WILL tell you how that should affect your politics, we WON'T apologize, we WILL be in your face, and we WON'T bow before left-wing pressure groups or the IRS.

Resonse to Uber ...
... and his/her Christian Butchers comment: you forgot to mention Joseph Stalin, Vladimir Lenin, Ho Chi Min, Mao Tse-tung, Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Adolph Hitler, Idi Amin. I'm sure I've missed someone. Their actions do not excuse murder by supposed Christians who believed they acted in God's name. Still, I do believe their total far exceeds any number you can come up with for such "crusaders."

What does God say?
He tells us that there are only two responses to His gracious offer, 1) contrite acceptance of His gift or, 2) derisive laughter. In Acts 2, after the ENTIRE Church of the day received the power of the Holy Spirit, it is recorded for us that the non-church crowd either listened and agreed with the Church's message or mocked the messengers and said they were drunk. The same two things happen today. That the Church gets mocked (e.g. Palin's experience, or Maher & Hichings rantings) doesn't dilute its message, nor does it suggest it should, therefore, "apologize" for being. Rather, the Church is told to face the crowd, demonstrate what love looks like (see Eph. 5 & 6 for characteristics of a group that loves), and get on with sharing the good news. No mamby-pamby stuff here.

Perhaps a significant portion of the issue is that some groups that use the label "church" are nothing of the sort; they shouldn't be expected to act as such.

chas
I sympathize bro.
Will Willimon of Duke in his "Worship as Pastoral Care" decries the "Clinical" approach to Models of Ministry. Clinical Pastoral Education gave ME a clinical depression TOO!
It's no comfort, I know, but there's a lot of your experince going around. Guy I knew from a Walk To Emmaus had his wife feel a "call to ministry" and dumped him in a very messy divorce. Got part of the Emmaus Community in on it too, according to him.
Guy has been burned bad.
Don't blame him or you.

Another friend of mine and his wife have started to seriously question the point to their Presbyterian Churche's massive staff and multi-million dollar budge.

I've begun to think that any group of Christians too large to meet in somebody's living room ain't doing church.
Hang in there, chas.
People, being fallen, fail and betray us badly,
and it's hard not to transfer that to thinking God LET em do it, let US walk into it and that God has therefore betrayed us too.
Ain't true "when we are faithless he remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself", but it still seems and sure as hell FEELS that way.
In the end what we got is "greater love has no one than this, that He lays down His Life for Us."
GOT to buy into that!

blessings,
the big mick

Christian Butchers
"The witch hunter actually PRAYED??? Horror of horrors! Does Sarah Palin's church think the Constitution guarantees them religious freedom or something?"

This is not a question of religious freedom, this is a question of Palin and McCain's character. Fact is Palin consorts with a dangerous radical crowed, who believe is superstitious nonsense, which has caused the death of thousands of people not in the past but now.

Further more if we want to compare the deaths caused by Atiests, vs, Christians, even by that metric Christians have killed many more people than atheist, simply by virtue of there being so many more of them.

Take just the ten million who died is the Congo under King Leopold, a Christian. Or the millions who died in world wars at the hands of German, French, British, American, etc... mostly Christians. In fact during World War One, it was non Christians who refused to go to battle and kill their fellow man. And that doesn't even start to take into account all the Christian terrorists like the IRA or militia groups in Columbia. And that doesn't even start to count all the Christians who commit murder. Or slave trade....

The majority of Christians kill not so much as a matter policy, but more as a matter of habit.... because they don't value non Christians life.... That is the real sickness at the heart of Christianity.... It's the total empathy and lack of basic decency by which Christians organize their lives in ways that sacrifice human life at the alter of their own personal gain and then justify that on biblical grounds.

It is Christians it turns out who have killed the most Christians.... because the dark heart Christianity's has no moral compass.



jersey renny
I hear ya bro. I refer people to the VA edu Website on how the Irish were treated in America, NASTY! We took jobs too dangerous to risk a valuable black slave on!
Ever see a movie called "The Commitments", bout an Irish MOTOWN band! GREAT Music! “Mustang Sally” and “Chain of Fools” etc. Great Flick! Great line: “Don’t ya know the Irish are the blacks (maybe they used Whoopi’s word for her dear little friends, the language was pretty raw with “phookin” used every sentence.) of Europe, and we Dubliners are the Blacks of Ireland!”
As I tell people working the White or Productive Guilt Trees: “I don’t owe nobody a damned thing!”

Similarly with the MALE guilt they tried at Duke: Being an English teacher by trade before, ALL MY SUPERVISORS were WOMEN, HALF of em BLACK WOMEN!

Again I told them I had enough SPECIFIC PERSONAL sins to keep me working at Repentance, Confession, Restitution, Reconciliation, and Penance, for the foreseeable future. They could take THEIR corporate Guilt and SHOVE it! (Was that another specific personal sin for which I SHOULD have repented? Didn’t FEEL like it, FELT like TRUTH AND JUSTICE!)

Once again, important NT doctrine: “Each one will suffer for their own sins.”
Corporate Confession is....NOT!

Mick

uber
Interesting handle.

Your logic is faulty--wars are carried out by nations. By the way, none of the leaders of the Axis powers in WWII were Christian. Neither was Stalin, a persecutor and murder of Christians, Muslims, persons of any religious belief, many ethnic "minorities" (interesting since he wasn't Russian), people he didn't like, etc. He was an avowed atheist.

Someone may claim to be a Christian, but you must compare them to the standard. It isn't hard, the Holy Bible comes in most languages. We admit we are sinful and make mistakes.

Atheist regimes have killed more people for religious belief than allegedly Christian leaders for the wrong belief.

uber
What at HOOT! First of all to assume that CALLING one's self CHRISTIAN MAKES one "Christian" either in nature, character, or doctrinal approach.

Hey UBE, ya got your "coporate guilt" SCAM going again!

For the record Ube, though this qualifies as "casting pearls before dumbasz pigs" and Jesus says don't waste the effort, the HEART of Christianity is a Man who allows EVIL people to TORTURE HIM to DEATH because HE is convinced it will SAVE YOUR SORRY GOD DISSN ASZ FROM HELL!

Everything else is UHF4-CH4, Ube, "when it ain't got the balls to be bull and the substance to be sheite!"

And in making your body counts, ube, don't forget the Atheist Red Chinese, the Khmer Rouge, the Turkish destruction of the Armenians,
Hitler (occultist not Christian) and the Nazis, Tojo and the Racist Imperialist Japs, Rape of Nanking, the Original Rise of Islamic Imperialism that PROVOKED the Crusades, all the Barbaric Tribal Migrations, pre-Christian Wars, Hellenic, Eastern--Persia, India, China, Monguls, Huns, etc etc, Punic, list goes on.
Hell, got to add in the JEWISH Wars even THE DELUGE cause that's pre-Christ.

GOD doesn't seem to have as big a problem killn people who need killn as YOU do, uber. Especially those who DIS HIM!

I'm just sayin...

the big mick

burger king theology
Ah, the perfect storm. Woodstock emotionalism meets burger king theology.
The nature of the church is that it is divine but manned (sorry, political correctness) “personed” by the human animal.
The question is not the hypocrisy; that's a given. The question is staying true to the gospel. While I may cohort with sinners for the purpose of reviving my humility and spreading the good news, I need not back away from what is true.
I do however differ with this notion of individualism though, expressed in some of the comments. Should I take advantage of institutional sin (for instance justifying slavery but treating my slaves well), perhaps there needs to be an attempt to address the wrongs of the institution. I can also destroy the institution from within by interpreting the truth from my vantage point (individual interpretation of the Scriptures is what I mean, though I don't want my post to veer in that direction). With that said, I believe the "confessing church" to be guilty of the latter, to have fallen into a false sense of interpretation that falls away from the pursuit of Truth. It looks to me as a slick method of having it my way. I want to feel good and not condemn what is obviously sinful so that I can maintain some sense of relatedness with certain social groups, even if the cohesion of these groups depends upon the denunciation of truth.
I guess that the cross is what provides cohesion for Christians. As a Catholic and a historian, I've seen the results of what happens when the reality of the cross is jettisoned.
Also, I see the confessing church as just one more example of why the cross is a stumbling block.
Steve R

ubetube2
TELL me you didn’t actually READ this before you posted it, ube, much LESS actually THOUGHT about it:
“Palin consorts with a dangerous radical crowd”...
Oh you mean like Saul “to the barricades”Alinsky and Bill “blow em up” Ayers, and Michael, “Watch Me Out Mao Mao” Klonsky!? THAT kind of “We didn’t kill enough” Radical Crowd? Or are you referring to the “God Damn America” “dangerous radical” Black Racism “crowd” (the word you were looking for was “congregation”, ube) of Jerry Wrong as distinguished from the “dangerous radical” Black Racist “crowd” of “Rev” Jesse Jackasson and “talkn down to Whoopi’s dear little friends”?

Just askin...

Ube continues:

“who believe in superstitious nonsense”.

Hate to break it to ya, ube, but belief in a Real Active Satan is a orthodox historical Doctrine of ALL Mainstream Protestant Churches, the RC and Eastern Orthodox Churches. Orthodox Judaism, and Main Stream “moderate” Islam!
Just cause, like the color blind man, YOU got no perception of it does not in the LEAST mean it is “superstitious nonsense”. Absence of evidence apparent to YOU is NOT evidence of absence universally. The guys from Togo who I worked with sure as HELL knew it was NOT “nonsense” OVER THERE! Witchcraft and Black Magic were the KEY to Financial and Political POWER in their country. I have that from the NEPHEW of a CABINET MINISTER!

Ube, you have simply enlarged my perception of the hilarity inherent in bigotry and ignorance.
Thanks for the laugh of the week!

mick

parting thot
Just a little heads up Theological Note to the thread here. At bottom this idea of “Corporate Guilt” is tied into the Concept of “redeeming SOCIAL STRUCTURES” and there’s a DEFINITE MARXIST ROOT to it. Avery Dulles (kin to John Foster Dulles) in his “Models of the Church” points out that an Ecclesiology (doctrine of the Nature and Mission of the Church) that wants to be about “redeeming social structures” primarily has got to get the rational “on grounds other than Biblical.” It simply ain’t a concept Jesus taught his Disciples. “My kingdom is not of this world.” INDIVIDUALS NOT STRUCTURES. The approach of the latter is steeped in Marxism, the concept of “praxis”, and “the kingdom of God” (basileon ton theon–I say better translated RULE of God) as essentially Social Change.
Stay alert for the language clues.
Mick

kudos to most "God bless all here!"
And "God save the good work."

Good stuff, brothers and sisters, keep up the LIght and the Fight!

Steve, well put. Considering Woodstock as ALSO about Drugs, Sex, Rock and Roll and MAO, you DO got the perfect storm here.

The THREE CENTRAL ISSUES dividing the GOP and Our Republic on the eve of this election revolve around your Woodstock, Drug, Sex, Rock and Roll and Mao, meets Burger King, "have it your way" "customerized" "Christianity". From the 60's Sexual DE-volution we have the WAR to norm Homosex! From the Cultural Revolution we have the Lurch to the Left OVER the Socialist Abyss--the New Deal gone New School! Both those groups have joined in their Hatred of Christianity with the "Third Wave" the sympathizers and enablers of the ENEMY in our War for Suvival Against the Sandnazi Imperialist World Wide Hegemony.

All bent on the destruction of the Republic, all united in their Hatred of Christians.

And it's why I have begun to ask Theologians to begin to consider the Interface between Rivival and Revolution in our Constitutional Republic.

There is a time for peace, and a time for war, a time to cast away stones and a time to gather stones together.

Which times do we live in brothers and sisters?

Which times? Is it time for a prophet to arise who says: "Yet 40 days and America will be overthrown."

Just askin...

the big mick

uber
"The majority of Christians kill not so much as a matter policy, but more as a matter of habit.... because they don't value non Christians life...."

I repeat, atheists have killed far more people than Christians - period.

Gospel in reverse
"...the one sin to be avoided at all costs is the failure to be liked by the culture."

Jesus did not commission his apostles to go out into the world, learn what is popular, and bring it back to his church. He sent them out to TEACH the world the Gospel. What these apologizers are advocating is the Gospel in reverse.

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but continually be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may be able to determine what God's will is-what is proper, pleasing, and perfect. - Romans 12:2


uber - do not lie or slander
it is sin.

What's the point
As I've grown in my faith (conservative Catholic), the question that often comes to mind is this:

What's the POINT of going to church if your church and your religious ideology tells you it's okay to do whatever you want? If your church supports sexual promiscuity, abortion, and other intrinsic evils?

Seriously - I'd like to know.

To me, that's basically like putting your photo on the altar and worshipping it. If your religion makes no demands of you, does not require you to practice self-control, self-restraint, and self-denial of gratification...why bother? If that's how I felt about religion - that God was a-okay with anything - I wouldn't bother. I'd sleep in on Sundays and catch a nice brunch.

I converted to Catholicism fully understanding the doctrines of the Church and what I was professing when I was confirmed. It was not a lighthearted decision. Every day I have to recommit myself to continuing to study my faith through reading and prayer and worship in order to live up to the ideals of the Church.

Do I make mistakes and sin? Yeah. But that's *my* fault - not the fault of the Church's teachings - because human beings are sinful.

That doesn't mean we should eschew religious orthodoxy for feel-good, warm-fuzzy, hackneyed spirituality that requires *nothing* of you.

To Amy (resonse #1)...
Beautiful response! Well said, and thank you!

Yes and AMEN!!
I have been pastoring for now 32 years I have seen this mush-mouth preaching before. In the early 80's it was called counseling from the pulpit and it gave us weak personal responsibility. In the late 80's it was being friendly environment, open, early seeker. Then mid-90's topic of the day preaching... turn of the century more openness to all but all the time being weaker and weaker on personal responsibility and weak on biblical wholeness! What is needed is being different than the world: Like having hope...love, peace, grace, joy, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self control. Different yes... truthful...yes... yet kind and respectful. If anything needs to be confessed it is the sin of silence to speak those truths and LIVING those truths.
THANK YOU!!! For speaking out truthful against such false righteousness... I have had my fill of this bunk selfish me-o-logy - of the false trinity me-myself and I!

Real Living...not this false confessing.
Being different than the world: Like having hope...love, peace, grace, joy, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self control. Different yes... truthful...yes... yet kind and respectful. If anything needs to be confessed it is the sin of silence to speak those truths and LIVING those truths.
Dietrich Bonheoffer said: “To deny oneself is to be aware only of Christ and no more of self, to see only Him who goes before and no more the road which is too hard for us.” “Human love has little regard for the truth. It makes the truth relative, since nothing, not even the truth, must come between it and the beloved person.” In a world where success is the measure and justification of all things, the figure of him who was sentenced and crucified remains a stranger.
THANK YOU!!! For speaking out truthful against such false righteousness... I have had my fill of this bunk selfish meology.

Uber's broad brush displays ignorance
Calling oneself "christian" does not make one a Christian because Christianity is not defined by human beings, but by God as He has revealed Himself to mankind through His Bible. Hitler and any other murderous scum you want to say were "christians" could as easily have called themselves potted plants, but that wouldn't have meant they grew roots and started photosynthizing. They lacked the basic ability to be plants; they also lacked the relationship with Jesus that defines Christianity. So before you make any further comments on CHristianity, I suggest you read Acts, to see how that term was defined in the early Church. All other definitions are specious, including whatever one's you want to create.

Moreover, your smear brush is awfully broad. You like to mention atrocities committed in the name of Christ as proof of the "evil" of Christianity. We've dealt with Hitler and Stalin. Being European doesn't make you or your nation christian (little "c" intended). Look at the rest of the world and history, you'll usually find it was Christians being persecuted by non-Christians. The Crusades? Well, some would call the self-defense, since the Muslims invaded Christian territory first and forced Christians to convert or accept a virtual slave-class status in society.

But, even then -- were the men conducting the Crusades "Christians"? Maybe some were. Most were secular rulers who responded to the RCC request for aid in exchange for "magical" absolvence of their "sin" of being soldiers. By participating in the Crusades, they were told, they would not have to spend time in Purgatory paying for all the death-dealing they'd done in defense of their own kingdoms. As you won't find that in the Bible, I don't think you can call it a "christian" doctrine.

Uber's Brush 2
Then there were the very groups of Christians back then. For example, my theological forebears were anabaptists of the Alpine tradition -- not Zwingli's group, but those who existed before, probably descendants of Waldenses or other groups of anabaptists who had been forced into exile by the RCC and had withdawn up into the high alpine valleys to avoid further persecution while continuing to practice their faith, which was not Roman Catholic, but based upon the simple Bible faith as found in the New Testament. They didn't participate in the Crusades because they were busy being persecuted themselves. This is not to knock the RCC, but simply to point out that Uber makes statements without knowing what he's talking about. Again, study some history before you make comments as if you're an expert. You aren't!

Then look at what countries where Christians live alongside other groups -- either of other faiths or atheists. Who is killing who?

Malaysia -- Christians are hunted down and killed for the crime of "sorcery".

Burma/Myanmar - Christians are enslaved and killed for the crime of being Christian.

The Punjab - Christians are killed for the crime of being Christians.

Columbia - evangelical Christians are kidnapped and executed for preaching against the drug trade and trying to help families in the Medillin area break free of the traffickers.

The Middle East. Well, we don't need to detail that, do we?

Examples about. Where are the true Christians killing anyone of another faith? Find a place in this world and specifically name it. Just be careful, because I'll check your assertion.

Karl - a reply
Thanks for being willing to clarify your position.

Please recognize that there is nothing wrong with confession. Christians are called to do so. Big Mick and others have already correctly explained that corporate apologies really mean nothing. We all stand naked before our God as individuals, personally responsible for our own sins. That doesn't change when our sins are washed away by Jesus or when we join a church. I, who am by choice of an anabaptist tradition, do not become automatically guilty of, for example, the Crusades conducted by the secular allies of the RCC just because someone has decided I should be guilty. Now, to the extent to which I (Aurorawatcher) have acted in less than Christian ways, I do owe apologies, but for what you may or may not have done -- I do not.

On the other hand, and this is critical -- if your church has, as part of its institutional history, conducted itself as a body in a less than Christian manner, yes, you may owe your individual community apologies as a corporate body, but only specifically for the actions of your church, not for THE Church. Christians everywhere are not guilty of what your specific church body may or may not have done and it is inappropriate -- actually quite offensive -- for you to include the rest of us in your guilt.

Do you understand the difference? The emphasis of Christian confession has always been and should remain on the individual standing naked before our Savior asking that our (and only our) sins be washed away. Anything else is really dancing around the issue. I think it's a lot easier to be guilty in a group than to be guilty as an individual.

What is Christian?
While the God that raised up the Roman Empire, justly was bringing down the Roman Empire “Come out of her my people so you don’t share her sins… and suffer her plagues.” Jesus prophesied Jerusalem would not have one stone left on another, and the church shouldn’t rebel against the authority of the Roman Empire, like the Jewish Zealots who were taking up the sword against the Romans. But Jesus was also very clearly said, when on trial before Pilate, that The Roman Empire’s authority to execute Jesus on the cross was from God and was legitimate. Paul further said those Roman soldiers don’t wear that sword for decoration. Everything they do is with God’s authority. So while I defend the Catholic Church, I don’t take any of their hippy crap, about no death penalty, or unjust wars, or not imposing anything. When the Roman Empire became Christian, it didn’t suddenly lose its right to be brutal. The Christians, weakened by the fall of the Roman Empire, all across North Africa, were conquered by the Muslims, and remained a weak tiny minority. Both ends of Europe were being conquered by Muslims. All of Europe would have all bowed five times a day to Mecca, if they didn’t learn how to be more brutal than the Muslims. Vlad the Impaler was a Defender of the Faith, who kept Rumanians Christian, by being more brutal than the Muslims in Turkey, which were conquering. On the other end of Europe, the Muslims had conquered all through Spain and France. The Christians had to learn how to be more brutal than the Muslims to stop them. It took seven hundred years, of learning how to be more brutal than the Muslims, to push the Muslims out of France and Spain and back into Africa. Muslims still refer those lands, as lands that must be re-conquered.

Either you defend your way of life or you lose it…

That is Christian…

America's Founders are the problem
They -- or at least the ministers they followed -- were some of the first to politicize the Christian pulpits with a-biblical political ideas that had nothing to do with the Bible or historic Christianity.

"Someone may claim to be a Christian, but you must compare them to the standard. It isn't hard, the Holy Bible comes in most languages. We admit we are sinful and make mistakes."

Exactly. Men like Washington, J. Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Franklin oft-presented their creed under the auspices of "Christianity" but went onto reject nearly ever tenet of historic Christianity (or like Washington and Madison, utterly ignored them).

Rejectoing Christianity...
"reject nearly ever tenet of historic Christianity"

The historical context that must be understood, is that all of the English speaking world was pretty anti-Catholic, but not anti-Christian. They were trying to reject the Pope, and find reformantion forms of government that were not monarchies. The French revolution was a rejection of all traditional religion, the American Revolution was as George Washington described, needed the pillars of our society religion and morality, and you are not patriotic if you give them the finger...

Is the following Christian?
Here is a portion of John Adams' letter to Jefferson, September 14, 1813, where he notes he rejects the Trinity because it flunks the test of reason. The context is important. Jefferson & Adams were discussing the just repealed British law that made it a crime to publicly deny the Trinity. Adams notes that man’s reason — not the Bible — is penultimate for determining Truth. And that he rejects the Trinity because it flunks the test of reason. He even goes so far as to as if he were with Moses on Mt. Sinai and God revealed the doctrine of the Trinity to him there, he would still reject it because man’s reason proves 1+1+1 = 3, not 1! Even I, a secular kind of guy, would admit this borders of arrogance. As he wrote:

“We can never be so certain of any prophecy, or the fulfillment of any prophecy, or of any miracle, or the design of any miracle, as we are from the revelation of nature, that is, nature’s God, that two and two are equal to four….This revelation had made it certain that two and one make three, and that one is not three nor can three be one….Had you and I been forty days with Moses on Mount Sinai, and admitted to behold the divine Shekinah, and there been told that one was three and three one, we might not have had the courage to deny it, but we could not have believed it.”

Chas
There is a kernel of truth in what you say, however their anti-Catholicism was part and parcel of a larger anti-creedalism which in turn led them to reject the tenets of orthodox Christianity even while passing off their unitarian creed as "rational Christianity." They associated orthodox Trinitarian doctrines like original sin the Trinity the Incarnation and the Atonement with the Nicene Creed and hence the Roman Catholic Church. John Calvin, to them, was "Popish." Here is a quotation of Adams that perfectly illustrates this fact:

“The Trinity was carried in a general council by one vote against a quaternity; the Virgin Mary lost an equality with the Father, Son, and Spirit only by a single suffrage.”

John Adams to Benjamin Rush, June 12, 1812

America's key Founders like John Adams were "Davinci Code" Christians.

The Trinity…
The Trinity…

I probably won’t be able to give you a satisfactory response to your questions, other than the Trinity, is a mystery, like most of the teachings of the Church, and people struggle to understand mysteries all their lives. Most of my life I was clueless. I heard all kinds of crazy explanations in Evangelical churches. After I studied it, the Trinity seemed simple…

Augustine was in the Roman Empire that was very polytheistic. To him there was a great danger in the Trinity being described as three Gods. He wanted the oneness stressed. He suggested God is to the Father, Son, and Spirit, is as a human person is to, say, his own memory, understanding, and will. When I read that it seems to have too much modalism. I prefer the explanation, in the first few chapters of Genesis that we are created in God’s image. Male and female and later their child, were all described using the phrase ‘in his image.’ A family and a unified church are the only true representations of the Trinity of God on earth. One family that is three persons represents one God that is three persons…

I have not heard, very many people in the churches, saying anything like this…

Maybe if Adams and Jefferson heard this explanation, they would have been satisfied…

Maybe not…



Often forgotten
is that our citizenship is in Heaven (Philippians 3:20) and as ex-patriots living in the world, we must still abide by God's loving instructions contained in the Scriptures.

Seems like these churches are confessing and asking forgiveness from the Accuser and the world instead of from their Lord and Savior.

Thanks for the apologies…(1)
---The fact that “research says the majority of people now view Christianity as hypocritical, intolerant and even hateful,” only proves how effective mass media is in creating perceptions. ---

Or the people could have that opinion themselves, from assessing the evidence.

---Any church that takes a stand in defense of the unborn and for traditional marriage will be accused of being “too political.” ---

I accuse them of bigotry.

---Any church which has homosexuals in a list along with thieves, alcoholics and adulterers (as the word of God does—1 Corinthians 6:9-11) will be accused of mistreating homosexuals. ---

But they won’t stone them. Why not? It’s god’s law!

---Any church that teaches a literal six-day creation and a young earth will be viewed as archaic and out of touch with the mainstream of scientific research (read: evolutionary theory).---

Yup. Creationists are archaic, out of touch, deluded, ignorant (or lying), reality-denying charletans.

Stuart

Thanks for the apologies...(2)
---And while I personally don’t know any Christians in any church who do not believe the slave trade was cruel and hideous, I feel no personal responsibility for it, though I am rightly ashamed of any part my ancestors may have played in propagating it. ---

What about your bible that teaches the circumstances under which you will not be held responsible for the homicide of your slave?

---No amount of remorse on my part for their crimes against humanity will erase the history, no matter how politically correct an apology may be.---

Cop out.

---The Founder of the Church, the Author and Finisher of our faith, warned that, because of Him, the world would persecute us (John 15:20-21) and hate us (John 15:18) because it hates Him.---

John claims he said that. Did he exist at all?

---We have been eternally defined by the infallible, inerrant and perfect Word of God personified in the Word made flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ.---

…yet you don’t feel comfortable apologising for being self-righteous??

Stuart

aurorawatcher
---Hitler and any other murderous scum you want to say were "christians" could as easily have called themselves potted plants, but that wouldn't have meant they grew roots and started photosynthizing. ---

Hitler saw Jesus as a key part of his master plan to wreak vengeance on the Jews. He was a nutcase, but you would have to be a nutcase to think an ancient preacher, dead 200 years, could have anything more than a psychological / placebo effect anyway.

---Moreover, your smear brush is awfully broad. You like to mention atrocities committed in the name of Christ as proof of the "evil" of Christianity. ---

Yeah, you don’t need the atrocities. Just the evil doctrines of hell, original sin and the need for ‘salvation’ are enough to roundly condemn any church blighting humans with those dogmas.

---The Crusades? Well, some would call the self-defense, since the Muslims invaded Christian territory first and forced Christians to convert or accept a virtual slave-class status in society.---

It was followed pretty quickly by the Inquisition in Southern Europe. They were not loving and forgiving.

---… As you won't find that in the Bible, I don't think you can call it a "christian" doctrine. ---

But stoning adulterers, homosexuals and ‘unbelievers’ is very christian.

---Then look at what countries where Christians live alongside other groups ---

Are you saying atheists are killing christians, because they are not atheists?

I do understand the itch some must feel to do damage to evangelical christians. What a load of tedious, whining, ignorant bores they are. I never would do such damage of course because I am a loving, law-abiding atheist. Love the christian, not the christianity!

Stuart

Ken
---That argument cuts both ways. Many of us Christians are worried about you atheists creating a dictatorship - and we should. Judging from what I've read from their posts on TH, most atheists care about no one's rights but their own. ---

There are plenty of atheists who think religion should be allowed or encouraged to die, but I don’t know of a single one who actively wants to remove your right to believe whatever fantasies you want in private. I support your right to self-delusion. Atheism is not an ideology, there are no rules or doctrines. It is just freedom from the specific demands people make because they want everyone to please their Imaginary Friend in the sky. Today there are christians murdering abortion doctors because of their fundamentalist ideology and islamists killing because of theirs; I know of no atheists killing anyone because of ‘atheist ideology’. Can you name five?

Stuart

To Jon
Your quote from John Adams saying that Mary lost out on co-eternity with the Father, Son, and HS by a single vote only shows that great Americans can be stupid, ignorant, and careless in speech.

By the way, if you are proud of being an infidel, how do you feel bearing the name "Jehovah has Given", for I assume your full name is Jonathan.

stu
"Today there are christians murdering abortion doctors because of their fundamentalist ideology"

Can YOU name five?

stu - uber - etc...
Can you name one atheist country in history that have anything other than totalitarian governments, whose election ballots look like...

Stalin: Yes_ No_

You better thank God every night there were a bunch of heretick southern baptist nutcases, even before the reformation in Europe. They made every decision by voting, in a Europe full of monarchs, and eventually demanded it in the government...

You better thank God every night there were a bunch of heretick Presbytarian nutcases in the European reformation that were looking for ways of doing representative government, when you vote for a leaders that represents your group, to replace the monarchy...

Democracy and representative republics began in churches before they were used in your governments...

What did the atheists come up with?

Intolarance - Creationists - Darwinists
Lets dig a little and discover who is the one who is intolarant...

How many creation therories are there?

- at least 10 that I have seen...

How many Darwinist theories are there?

- basically 1

Is there any church that says anybody is a heretick if they don't believe any of the creation theories?

- no, it is a non-essential church teaching and Christians are free to believe any of the at least 10 creation theories or Darwinism or any combination or no theory at all and is isn't held against them and doesn't effect their salvation or orthodoxy in any way...

Can anybody disagree with Darwinism?

- you will be considered harming their pure science if you disagree with Darwinism in any way, and harming the children's right to have this education with pure science, which has record dropout rates...

- all the kids in all the schools have to be taught Darwinism and everybody in the country must pay for it even if they disagree with it, even if we know it was the basis for survual of the fittest group in Hitler's Germany, and if they want their children in a school that teaches anything other than Darwinism they have to pay for both the atheist public school their child is not attending, and the private school their child is attending...

Will you make any progress pursuing your higher education in state universities and in secular careers if you believe anything other than Darwinism?

- no ask Ben Stein

Will you be make progress in Christian College or Christian ministry if you don't believe creationism...

- yes even the Pope believes some form of Darwinism

To me it is very obvious who is intolarant...

Chuck
Stu: "Today there are christians murdering abortion doctors because of their fundamentalist ideology"

---Can YOU name five? ---

James Charles Kopp
Peter James Knight
John Salvi
Eric Robert Rudolph
Paul Jennings Hill

Stuart

chas
---Can you name one atheist country in history that have anything other than totalitarian governments, whose election ballots look like...Stalin: Yes_ No_---

Totalitarian governments only adopt atheism because their own ideology cannot stand the competition from religious ideology. I don’t advocate an atheist ideology because there is no such thing. I would think Turkey might be as awkward at international relations as its islamic neighbours if the Turkish army did not staunchly reinforce the secular constitution. A secular democracy is the goal. That is what the US is…just. The religionists can take their 10 commandment tablets and attempt to insert them in their bigoted and ignorant backsides as far as I am concerned. Apologies for the graphic imagery there.

(SNIPPED bits that made no sense)

Stuart

1 - Stu What outrages you?

If you have a traditional understanding of morality:

1. No other gods, because you know God is outraged when you have other gods, or wrong explanations about what God is like, because God doesn’t like being misrepresented to people.
2. No graven images, because you were created in his image. Don’t create gods in your image. Our humanity is the only thing in all of the creation that represents God, and God is outraged when you misrepresent him to people.
3. Don’t misuse God’s name, because God is outraged when he is reduced to a curse word, and God is outraged when people call themselves followers of God and live like the devil.
4. Remember the Sabbath, because God is outraged when oppressive bosses require people to work seven days a week, or when you are too greedy to take a day off work, to spend time with God and family.
5. Honor your parents, because God is outraged when anything destroys the unity of your family. We are created in the image of God. The Trinity of God always agrees and never fights each other, unlike the hostility between the gods that are always fighting each other. The image of God is expressed in the relationships of the family, husband, wife, and children. Since the fall of Adam and Eve people need authority to maintain be social order.

2 - Stu What outrages you?


6. Don’t murder because, the people who have lost someone will be outraged and grieve. And God will grieve and his heart will be filled with pain. God will demand that by man your blood will be shed.
7. Don’t have sex with anybody to whom you are not married, because your spouse will be outraged by your betrayal.
8. Don’t steal because, the people who you stole from will be outraged by their loss.
9. Don’t give false testimony because, the person you commit perjury against in court, or gossip about in the neighborhood, will be outraged by being convicted of a crime they didn’t commit, or by the loss of their reputation in the community.
10. Don’t desire your neighbor’s house; He probably is outraged by all the neighbors’ resentment and their scheming to swindle him out of his house. Your family will be outraged because, until you get that house, you lose all the enjoyment in your life, since you think you are a loser, and your neighbor is a winner.
Don’t desire your neighbor’s wife, because your wife will be outraged, if you stop for a lap dance on the way home from work. You will become bored with your own wife.
Don’t desire your neighbor’s business, thorns and thistles grow in everyone’s fields, and everyone must work by the sweat of their brow all the days of their life. Your neighbor didn’t escape it by getting a desk job.
Don’t desire your neighbor’s car, just say nice car, and realize you are better off driving your run down, bucket of bolts that nobody notices, because you own it.

3 - Stu What outrages you?

God is more outraged and the victim of the crime is more outraged, if you murder, have sex with someone you are not married to, or steal than if you only have the thoughts of hating, flirting, or coveting, with the thoughts not put into action. But God is outraged by all of them and so are the victims.

God blesses you with things, but is outraged when you spend too much of your life, living for all these things, and forget him. It’s like a man gives his sweetheart a beautiful ring, she falls in love with the ring, and forgets him. All of these desires will leave you with a deep dark emptiness that can’t be filled, and your neglected family, left bobbing in the wake of your ambition, will be outraged that you live for things rather than for people. Thanking God and enjoying the things he gave you, not expecting more than he gave you, and being able to enjoy the beauty of what you don’t own, and wishing your neighbor success, frees you from the darkness.


These spell out all the specific reasons there is outrage if you have a traditional understanding of morality. You want the government to pass laws and enforce them to protect people from being harmed by these and to punish people who learn the hard way.

4 - Stu What outrages you?


If you have lost your religion everything changes…

You become outraged by inequality of wealth, inequality of power, harming the planet, belief in the supernatural, harming animals, wars…

God calls all men to repent…

Mr. Edwards thanks for testifying to the absolute authority of the Scriptures.

“[God] commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” [Acts 17:30-31]

God is God and we are the creatures lost and helpless and without hope in the world. It is God who calls men to repent and believe the Gospel because we are all responsible before Him for our own sin and the suppression of truth in unrighteousness. Even for those who never heard of Jesus Christ, God declares His glory in what He has made so that they are without excuse [Romans 1].

How is God to judge the world? Jesus answers this question…

“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” [John 12:48].

This is why the church is called the pillar and support of truth, not that the church is the truth but that it is where the truth is proclaimed with power and sanction of God Almighty for the purpose of equipping the saints for the work of ministry and for calling His people so that they might walk in good works.

What separates Biblical Christianity from the other religions is the resurrection. If Christ is risen from the dead, then we who have been raised up to see and enter into the kingdom will also be raised up with Him on the last day.

When the church fails in its mission and preaches another gospel, then truth gives way to the false religions including Islam and naturalism and the perversions of Christianity as in socialism and the host of false prophets.

stu
James Charles Kopp - 1998 New York
Peter James Knight - 2001 Australia
John Salvi - 1994 Massachusetts
Eric Robert Rudolph - 1997 Atlanta
Paul Jenning Hill - 1994 Florida

With the exception of the Australian, you have to go back to the last century to come up with five names out of 6 billion people on the planet, to make a moral equivalency between Christians killing abortion doctors and Islamist killing anyone they deem offensive.


Tell me why I couldn't, according to the criteria YOU use, list Dylan Klybold and Eric Harris, as examples of ATHEISTS killing people because they wanted to "actively ...remove your right to believe whatever fantasies you want in private?



stu
And furthermore, tell me why I shouldn't imagine you at your keyboasrd wearing a black trenchcoat with a sawed-off shotgun leaning against your chair?

And
a stack of pornography alongside?

chas
I have no idea what you are on about.

Stuart

Chuck
---With the exception of the Australian, you have to go back to the last century to come up with five names out of 6 billion people on the planet, to make a moral equivalency between Christians killing abortion doctors and Islamist killing anyone they deem offensive.---

To me, that is five names of people committing murder NOW in the name of their fundamentalist christian beliefs. I did not equate it to islamist murder, I added the two together. Maybe we should be grateful we don’t have any examples from 2008.

---Tell me why I couldn't, according to the criteria YOU use, list Dylan Klybold and Eric Harris, as examples of ATHEISTS killing people because they wanted to "actively ...remove your right to believe whatever fantasies you want in private?---

Was either Klebold or Harris an atheist? What actually was their motivation for their violence? Did either of them ever write or say that they wanted to remove people’s rights to believe whatever fantasies they wanted? How are these two examples of "atheists killing (anyone) because of ‘atheist ideology'"? What ideology?

Regarding the others of your sick postings, I will not be honouring them with a reply.

Stuart

ValiantForTruth
---Mr. Edwards thanks for testifying to the absolute authority of the Scriptures.---

Shame you don't follow that authority then. How many adulterers have you personally stoned?

Stuart

stu, how convenient
When Christians point out to you that people like the five you cite are not representative of true Christians nor do they exemplify true Christian belief applied into action, you brush such justifiable objections aside and dismiss them as prejudicial nonsense,

yet when two individuals act out their atheistic paranoic beliefs you then get technical and imply their motivatioons sprung from some other place.

My other questions were serious regardless if you were offended by them and I would like a serioius reply.

Based on the examples of Klybold and Harris, what good reason can you give me that would assure me that, at some future date, I will not be reading about you doing the saem?

stu, additionally
In staying in context with the subject of the article, can you give me one reason why I, as a believer, owe you, an atheist, an apology for ANYTHING?

Ignore MSM--Polls--Vote McCain
The MSM media has no more credibility than does the Democrat Party and their Hand Picked Hand Puppet Obama. They are doing everything they can to Steal this election and hand us over to Socialism which would be complete should we Americans be foolish enought to elect this Questionable Candidate, Barack Obama. With a packed congress of Socialists such as Pelosi and Frank and others and a Puppet of theirs, Obama, every piece of legislation that the Marxists are sitting on would be rushed through congress and handed over to their Puppet, Obama to sign into laws. Things like taking away all State's Rights guaranteed by the Constitution, such as eradicating all state laws that put any limits on Abortion, such as Parent Notification for minors. Obama and the Liberal Democrats do not think that parents have any rights over their own children's lives. They want all the Children to Belong to the State. Things like the so-called Fairness Doctrine, which would end free speech on radio talk shows. Things like Abolishing The Right To Own Guns, a second amendment guarantee that we have so that we can defend ourselves from Thugs and Despots. Things like destroying the military and spending the monies now being spent on defense to fund UN initiatives such as World Welfare and expanding American Welfare to Illegal Aliens and others. Also, this Marxist Congress with a Marxist President would pack the courts with Marxist Judges, and the end of American Democracy with Checks and Balances as is our tradition and Right.

Better wake up America, An Obama Presidency is a Clear and Pesent Danger to our National Sovereignty and individual freedoms.

Ignore MSM and Polls--Vote Republican
The MSM media has no more credibility than does the Democrat Party and their Hand Picked Hand Puppet Obama. They are doing everything they can to Steal this election and hand us over to Socialism which would be complete should we Americans be foolish enought to elect this Questionable Candidate, Barack Obama. With a packed congress of Socialists such as Pelosi and Frank and others and a Puppet of theirs, Obama, every piece of legislation that the Marxists are sitting on would be rushed through congress and handed over to their Puppet, Obama to sign into laws. Things like taking away all State's Rights guaranteed by the Constitution, such as eradicating all state laws that put any limits on Abortion, such as Parent Notification for minors. Obama and the Liberal Democrats do not think that parents have any rights over their own children's lives. They want all the Children to Belong to the State. Things like the so-called Fairness Doctrine, which would end free speech on radio talk shows. Things like Abolishing The Right To Own Guns, a second amendment guarantee that we have so that we can defend ourselves from Thugs and Despots. Things like destroying the military and spending the monies now being spent on defense to fund UN initiatives such as World Welfare and expanding American Welfare to Illegal Aliens and others. Also, this Marxist Congress with a Marxist President would pack the courts with Marxist Judges, and the end of American Democracy with Checks and Balances as is our tradition and Right.

Better wake up America, An Obama Presidency is a Clear and Pesent Danger to our National Sovereignty and individual freedoms.

Thanks for the article
Paul,

Thank you so much for writing this article. It still bothers me two days later, so I pray when it comes to mind. I checked out the sites. By their fruits we know folks, and these fruits, though well-intentioned are pandering to the very people that need calling out of darkness.

I for one used to believe that Christian doctrines should be popularized, that way we could reach more people. But I soon learned that God's big work is best done in small quiet and personal places.

I'm not embarassed or ashamed for these folks, but they do not speak for me; I have my own sins to account for and by His Grace do it as often as I need to, first to God, then to those I've offended, even if in the past. It's no big production but it has mended many shaky/broken fences and actually been the undoing of some, which in the end have been for my good.

To those of you who are buying into these philosophies, please get on an online Bible (try http://www.blueletterbible.com) and search the following phrases, study them and think on them before getting caught in a swell of Christian populism: ashamed, [prey] philosophy, philosophies, angel of light, disguise, [mind] captured to Christ, bewitched, [loved] this world, [love] this world, blind.

If more people spent five to ten minutes in the Word for themselves separate from Bible classes and sermons, they'd be less apt to buy what well intentioned but charismatic folks are selling them in the name of Christ.

Beware of popular movements. Run from them and live a quiet, Biblically educated life serving those however great or small a community.

Jman
So you mean do it your way, not the way of one of the other 34,000 christian sects who all each have the one true path?

Stuart

Chuck
---When Christians point out to you that people like the five you cite are not representative of true Christians nor do they exemplify true Christian belief applied into action, you brush such justifiable objections aside and dismiss them as prejudicial nonsense,---

I thought I was being generous. But since you mention it, your characterisation of my ‘examples from the last century’, you only coming up with two examples and asking me if I thought they might fit the question, and in any case choosing examples of psychopathic killers who had never given any public indication of a religious or antireligious motive is a joke.

---yet when two individuals act out their atheistic paranoic beliefs you then get technical and imply their motivatioons sprung from some other place.---

Would you think it reasonable for me to say that all killers who are christians killed because they were christian? I have specifically chosen examples of murderers who were motivated by christian dogma. It is telling that you cannot find even one definite contemporary example of an atheist killing because of ‘atheist’ convictions.

Stuart

Chuck
---In staying in context with the subject of the article, can you give me one reason why I, as a believer, owe you, an atheist, an apology for ANYTHING? ---

I think as a ‘good’ christian believer you would say that I am a sinner. Well I am glad you have not, but I have asked several other christians to exclude me from their blanket statement on my behalf and apologise, not from the accusation of ‘sin’ itself (which I consider to be a farcical concept) but for the implied slur on my ethics without making a specific accusation. As you can imagine, I’ve had not one apology from any of them yet. Maybe you could be brotherly about it and apologise to me on their behalf.

Also, I will make the assumption that, as a ‘good’ christian, you endorse the bible in its entirety. I think it would be civil for you as a believer to apologise and withdraw the death threats against non-believers contained therein.

Stuart
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