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Tuesday, June 16, 2009
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Outlasting the Ayatollahs
by Pat Buchanan
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The Obama policy of extending an open hand to Iran is working and ought not be abandoned because of the grim events in Tehran.

For the Iranian theocracy has just administered a body blow to its legitimacy in the eyes of the Iranian people and the world.

Before Saturday, the regime could credibly posture as defender of the nation, defiant in the face of the threats from Israel, faithful to the cause of the Palestinians, standing firm for Iran's right to enrich uranium for peaceful nuclear power.

Today, the regime, including the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, is under a cloud of suspicion that they are but another gang of corrupt politicians who brazenly stole a presidential election to keep themselves and their clerical cronies in power.

*** Special Offer ***

What should we do now? Wait for the dust to settle.

No U.S. denunciation of what took place in Iran is as credible as the reports and pictures coming out of Iran. Those reports, those pictures are stripping the mullahs of the only asset they seemed to possess -- that, even if fanatics, they were principled, honest men.

Like Hamas, it was said of them that at least they were not corrupt, that at least they did not cheat the people.

No more. Today, in the streets of Tehran and other cities, they call to mind "Comrade Bob" Mugabe in Harare, Zimbabwe.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will never recapture that revolutionary purity he once seemed to possess as the man of the people who was elected president in the upset of 2005. Today, he appears, as The New York Times puts it, "as the shrewd and ruthless front man for a clerical military and political elite that is more unified and emboldened than at any time since the 1979 revolution."

There are other reasons Obama should not heed the war hawks howling for confrontation now.

When your adversary is making a fool of himself, get out of the way. That is a rule of politics Lyndon Johnson once put into the most pungent of terms. U.S. fulminations will change nothing in Tehran. But they would enable the regime to divert attention to U.S. meddling in Iran's affairs and portray the candidate robbed in this election, Mir-Hossein Mousavi, as a poodle of the Americans.

When Nikita Khrushchev bathed the Hungarian revolution in blood, Ike did not break relations. Khrushchev was at Camp David three years later. When Deng Xiaoping and Co. ordered the tanks into Tiananmen Square, George Bush I did not break relations. When Moscow ordered Warsaw to crush Solidarity, Ronald Reagan did not let that act of repression deter him from seeking direct talks to reduce nuclear weapons.

Again, let us wait for the dust to settle.

By now, even Ahmadinejad and Ali Khamenei must recognize that the Iranian revolution is losing the Iranian people. This is the third of four straight presidential elections where the turnout has been huge and the candidate who promised reconciliation with the West and an easing of social strictures won a landslide among the student young. Those are the future leaders of Iran.

Which way the regime will now go is difficult to predict.

After Tienanmen Square, the Chinese rulers who ordered in the tanks sought to reconnect with the disillusioned young by opening up to the West and building a neo-capitalist economy.

Iran, in economic straits with U.S. sanctions biting, its oil and gas reserves dwindling, could try the same route. Seize the opposition's best issues by seeking accommodation with America.

More likely, the regime, backed by the hard-line military, will try to reconnect with the masses and regain its reputation as defender of Islam and the nation, by defying the Americans, denouncing Israel and pressing forward with Iran's nuclear program.

The dilemma for America is that the theocracy defines itself and grounds its claim to leadership through its unyielding resistance to the Great Satan -- the United States -- and to Israel.

Nevertheless, Obama, with his outstretched hand, his message to Iran on its national day, his admission that the United States had a hand in the 1953 coup in Tehran, his assurances that we recognize Iran's right to nuclear power, succeeded. He stripped the Ayatollah and Ahmadinejad of their clinching argument -- that America is out to destroy Iran and they are indispensable to Iran's defense.

With the mask of patriotism and the legacy of true revolution lost through this election fraud, Iran's regime stands exposed as just another dictatorship covering up a refusal to yield power and privilege with a pack of lies about protecting the nation.

Saturday's election not only revealed the character of the Iranian regime. It also revealed that time is on our side. If the people of Iran can defy this regime, it is no threat to us.

As with the other revolutionary and totalitarian regimes, from the Soviet Union of Lenin and Stalin, to the People's Republic of Mao, to the revolutionary Cuba of Fidel, America outlasts them all.

And the ayatollahs, too.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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©Creators Syndicate
We should be doing
everything we can to undermine the regime covertly. Of course, knowing Obama, we're not.

David Letterman tells another funny...
Did ya hear that President Obama is considering investigating President Bush for war crimes? It seems the Bush policy of bringing democracy to Iraq to cause political turmoil in Iran among the young was so successful that the Iranian Grand Ayatollah personally called President Obama telling him that Iran considers Bush a war criminal and Obama agreed. Wow ... when will that failed Bush presidency stop creating more messes for President Obama to fix?

Hey ... did ya hear about Palin's infant son...?

BUCHANAN CAN'T BE SERIOUS!
A floodtide of disillusionment with the mullahs started shortly before the end of the Iran-Iraq War in the late 80s. Most Iranians viewed the mullahs as terribily unreformably corrupt way before Friday's election. The election turmoil has changed nothing except the level of anger in the streets and the hunger for change. The mullahs are not the Chicoms, they are Islamic revolutionaries belonging to a death cult who, like the intransigent Saddam, will kill millions if necessary to stay in power. Moreover, comparing the weak, spinless Obama to Eisenhower is a travesty of that strong, good, honest president and great wartime general. Click my name and read my piece: "Khamiene's Plan to Humiliate Obama and the US."




Mr. Buchanan,
You are one honest person. No wonder you are attack by so many pee brains.

You can always depend that what you write will be balanced and gracious even to those you disagree with.

You are one of the best writers this site has.

should have been
pea brains.(mistake)

Go Pat
The most intelligent and logical voice on the right is once again on the money here.

Islam and its people
The dangerous path of interference is not a conservative principle, its a principle that has failed us time and time again..The American coup in Iran in 1953 was never forgotten and the seething hatred Iran had for us was squashed by SAVAK, the Iranian police force used by the Shah.We can sit back with the knowledge that the Persian culture has survived for 5000 years as opposed to our 233 and they indeed will use logic and intelligence in eventually overthrowing the deep thinking ayatollahs..Their population is very young and progressive thinking(liberal.The Ayatollahs are older,relgious zealots who have lost the intellectual battle and now have to resort to violence to hold onto power...Its over for the zealots in every nation, including ours, which is too bad for the real conservative thinkers who have aligned themselves with the Jesus 1st crowd.

Joel De
It's silly to think this represent Iranians "breaking the shackles of Islam". These people were Muslims yesterday and they'll be Muslims tomorrow. If they can throw off theocracy, that would be great, but I don't think it even goes that far. This is a great moment for Iran, but it'll be a long time before they can be described as remotely "free".

Typical Buchanan Nonsense
How much longer will Townhall allow this Anti-semite to spew his disgusting Jew hatred in their forum? Israel's threats to Iran? Only one with Buchanan's diseased mind is capable of such garbage.

scipio - Are you joking, man!
If I were living in Iran and daily heard Israel
threaten to bomb my country back to the Stone
Age, with massive civilian casualties, I would
not only be extremely angry at Israel's threats,
I would be terrified for my life.

So how is this "anti-semitism"?

It is your mind that is hateful and diseased.

Let the Dust Settle
I think if Pat says, the best approach is to wait and let the dust settle, Obama just might get this one right.

The Obama policy is working
Twaddle! The unrest in Iran preceded BO and should have been nurtured by the Bush administration.

With the current thinking and behavior by the dunderheads in DC, it is by no means certain that America wil outlast the ayatollahs, at least not the America we know.

Seeds of distrust
The seeds of disrust are growing in our favor in Tehran. We should heed Pat's words and let the garden grow while the people of Iran pull out the weeds on their own.

Maximus - Wise Words
Iranians resent interference in their political
system the same way we would resent another
country interfering in ours.

We should be quietly supportive, help in any
way we can and treat them with the same respect
we, ourselves, expect from others.

They will pull out the weeds on their own.

Carter Target Of Terrorism?

Four roadside bombs were found along the route that Jimmah Carter took when he left Israel this morning. Three Palestinians are in custody.

Does this mean that Palestinians hate Carter, too? If so, we have more in common with the Palestinians than we thought.

Of course, we do not support assassinations or attempted assassinations.

gatorbait - Can you really be serious?
From "Pea Brain"

The "Leader of Iran" has never said he was planning to "nuke" Iran. What would make that
particularly difficult is that Iran has no nuclear weapons and the Iranian population
might raise some objections.

Secondly, who cares if the "Leader of Iran"
claims the "holocaust" didn't happen. He's
entitled to believe anything he wants to, even
if silly. He is also entitled to voice his
opinion (it's called freedom of speech) even
if his opinions are silly.

By the way, capitalizing words here and there
makes you look like a really bad typist.

And finally, I wouldn't recommend that YOU
refer to other people as stupid - it just seems a bit odd and leaves you vulnerable to serious
rebuttal.

lILLY
Serious Rebuttal

wow that leaves you out

thats why we call YOU SILLY LILLY

I noticed you didnt have anything to say about what TALKING TO OUR ENEMYS HAVE EVER GOTTEN US

Lets see WANTING TO WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE MAP sounds SERIOUS TO ME ,forgot I was DEBATING AND IGNORANT LIB and THATS REALLY SERIOUS

Typing in CAPS WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I scared now

Lilly - I'm quite serious
First, you need to show at least one report from a responsible news medium where Israel threatened to bomb Iran "back to the Stone Age." Certainly, many news agencies believe that Israel is planning the possibility of bombing Iran's nuclear facilities. And that only after Iran threatened to wipe Israel off the map and continues to develop the capacity to do so with a nuclear bomb.

If I lived in Iran, I wouldn't feel my life threatened, especially considering Israel's surgical strike against Iraq's nuclear facilities.

Buchanan's article is anti-semitic because it is his latest (of many previous) distortions of the truth in such a way as to make Israel and the Jewish people the aggressor and the evil party, which is simply untrue.

gatorbait - What a comedian!

You're so funny - you need to take it on the road!

What has not talking to our "enemies" ever gotten us? For the last 8 years the American
government has refused to engage with its
supposed enemies and the U.S. ended up despised by most of the world.

After just 5 MONTHS! of President Obama's
government, Lebanon appears to have elected
a U.S. backed government.

In Iran, it's very possible that without fraud,
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would have been defeated by
by the more moderate Mir Hosein Mousavi who has
ignited the imagination of international observers, reformers and women.

So now it's your turn: what has Not talking to
our "enemies" gotten us?

Don't be scared, gator. Now is the time to show
off your smarts.

Buchanan wrote
"Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will never recapture that revolutionary purity he once seemed to possess as the man of the people who was elected president in the upset of 2005".

Actually, Iranian presidential elections are much akin to Indian ones (no mistake, India does have a presidential election, though it is not a direct franchise) rather than American. Since Nejad was chosen (read "approved" as with USSR) candidate of clerical council led by Khamenei, he won--and repeated this in 2009.

scioio - You just can't be serious
The article was printed in one of New York's
major newspapers a few months ago. I obviously
no longer have the newspaper or even remember
which one it was. But I will clarify my
statement. A group of Israeli settlers were
being interviewed and the entire group agreed
that Iran should be bombed back to the Stone
Age. Netanyahu would certainly agree.

Surgical strikes? What a joke. Israel does not
have the right to kill a single Iranian. If
Israel does, it should be charged with war crimes.

It's becoming extremely tiresome, but here
comes the fake fear again. Iran can threaten
to it's heart's content, but it's all impotent
hyperbole. Iran could no more harm Israel than
it could harm the U.S. Israel pretends to be
shaking with fear to justify an attack on Iran.

If I lived in Israel, I'd laugh at the spectacle
of my countrymen's faux fear.

So I guess how it works for you is that if I
don't agree with you that the Palestinians are the "agressor" and the "evil party" then you feel justified calling me an anti-semite. That's
how you treat Mr. Buchanan (and I've read most
of his articles).

You owe him a sincere apology.








"aggressor

"...no threat to us..." Pat?
The Soviet Union, the Chinese, and the hapless Fidel would never even think of using nuclear weapons. The MAD Doctrine was in full force and worked, for what that is worth. That is why Ike, Reagan and Bush I could still talk to these people.

The present Iranian "leadership" is basically insane, hyped up on religious puritanism that allows them to believe that they are right. They are willing to die for those beliefs and take as many "enemies" as they can with them: mostly Israelis and Americans.

Obama should have come down hard on this sham and let the maniacs understand that we were not duped and not pleased. He could still go forward with his "talk to our enemies" program just as the aforementioned Presidents did.

Lilly
Its gotten LIBS to blame EVERYTHING that has Happen to ISLAM on AMERICA. Tell me what we Americans REPS did to LIBS for them to take the side of the ENEMY(TERRORIST) over their own American people.

You people think that a religion that has been KILLING and BEHEADING People for thousands of years and whose Bible, The Koran tells them that never integrate with people NOT OF THEIR RELIGION care what America thinks, also People who do not Convert to Islam are considered INFEDELS and need to be Eliminated from this Planet. What has talking gotten us.

Do you know What not TALKING to them and instead TAKING ACTION AGAINST THEM has not gotten us

THE ACTIONS WE TOOK/NOT TALKING BUT ACTIONS HASNT GOTTEN US ATTACKED AGAIN SINCE 9/11

These people Live and Die by the Sword so remember an EYE for an EYE

Actions not Words is all these people understand
WHATS NOT TALKING and ACTIONS GOTTEN US
You havent read about any more AMERICAN EMBASSIES BEING BLOWN UP LATELY HAVE YOU?
HAVENT HEARD OF ANYMORE US VESSELS BEING BLOWN UP ANYMORE HAVE YOU.
SO ALL THAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED BY AMERICAN MILITARY ACTION, NOT TALKING

SO LOOKS LIKE TO ME ACTIONS OVER WORDS WORKED AND ARE STILL WORKING.
See we took the fight to them and didnt let them continue to take the fight to us. What was it you LIBS famous 9/11 Commission told the World
THE MUSLIMS HAVE BEEN AT WAR WITH US ALLOT LONGER THAN WE HAVE BEEN AT WAR WITH THEM and all of that was because of TALKING not ACTIONS

Remember to ask BILL(THE SCUD MEISTER) CLINTON what it got him(TALKING). We might know today if Clinton hadnt had SANDY BURGLUR steal those Papers from the NATIONAL ARCHIEVES, now wouldnt we.

Next

This is utterly ridiculous
This election fraud has been planned for months by the supreme leaders. This entire election cycle was vicious in Iran; as intense as the Obama/McCain one here. The youth in the country have been oppressed for years... and to be truthful, GWBush's pledge to stand by the Iranian people resonated a lot more at the time, it just got less coverage. And his secret ops he was financing to fund these "freedom fighters" helped,too.

To put it simply, this was going to happen. The Ayatollahs put the fix in, the election cycle was already at a high pitch. Turnout was high - fraud awaited. It was a virtual certainty.

To actually believe that BHusseinObama makes a speech and the opposition rises up in support of his words - and that his doddering non-statements now somehow are the wise path... my God, have you all lost your freakin' minds? He's simply taking credit for the inevitable after the fact.

What BHO should do now is what GWB did; tell the Iranian people that he stands with them. If he doesn't, not only will the US be the "country that overthrew their govt", we will now be the country that refused to lift a finger to help them take it back.

Obama probably didn't know these riots were going to happen. His overtures were directed at the leadership... now he's caught like a deer in the headlights, as the supreme leader he was charming turns out to be the villain. So what does he do? Plays it safe; says nothing, takes no sides... even the side of freedom.

Joe's the Insane one
"The present Iranian "leadership" is basically insane, hyped up on religious puritanism that allows them to believe that they are right."

And you base this on? This is just a lie perpatrated by Zionists and their followers - such as John Bolton and Bill Kristol. if Iran was so insane, they'd attack. Insane people don't wait patiently to get stronger weapons - they attack - rember, they're insane - they have no rational thought...

Lilly
You arent one of those KOOL ADE DRINKERS who claim the Muslims liked us before the BIG EVIL BUSH and GITMO are you?


gatorbait
Your comment is so foolish, on so many levels,
that I just can't summon up the energy to refute your many silly assertions.

But let me remind you of the Somalia/Pirate
situation. President Obama quietly went about
resolving it, with no fanfare, no angry
outbursts, no threats - and his actions
resulted in a safe crew and some dead pirates.


I did have a chuckle at your "Sandy Burglur"
line. Didn't he stick the stolen papers into
his underpants?!

lILLY
SEE its not that hard is it?
It was OBAMAS ACTIONS not his WORDS that took care of those Somalia Pirates. Dead is the only thing they UNDERSTAND,not words. To Islam talking to your ENEMY is a sign of WEAKNESS. So why didnt we learn that from them

Now he(OBAMA) needs to come out like Bush did and tell the IRANIAN people he have their backs and are willing to SUPPORT them. Then I would believe he actually cares about them like LIBS claim he does.

Remember Lilly you said it here first

OBAMAS ACTIONS not HIS WORDS got things done.

Bravo Lilly we agree on something. Remember ACTIONS not WORDS

Guess you stopped drinking the KOOL ADE huh.
LMFAO

Scipio and others
Buchanan's point is that the rulers in Iran can plausibly assert to the Iranian people and the world that Iran is being threatened by Israel. That doesn't make Buchanan anti-semetic. Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said in 2004 that Israel will consider "All Options" available to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons.



Another factor ignored
is the unveiling in 2004 of a black-market nuke-tech network operated by mohajir nuke scientist A.Q. Khan--whose prospective clients included Libya, Iran, Saudi Arabia, ... Also lost in the short news about it--no recovery was made of the centrifuges (and other technology) actually sold by Khan (the ones at Natanz are cent-percent of KRL design).

Indeed, some believe that it is not a question of if (or even when) Iran will go nuclear--as the answer is already in PAST-TENSE.

Obama wants Ack Mini Jad
Pat supposes that Obama would actually want to overturn the election results if he thought they wre fraudulent.

What a joke.

Obama wants Ack Mini Jad - they are kindred souls.

Both have been elected with massive voter fraud ...

AND ...

both hate Israel ...

And so, it seems does Pat.

Maybe that is why he cannot see how foolish this article is.

Who cares what Reagan, Bush I, Carter, or anyone else did.

This is NOT your daddy's USA, Pat.

This president is NOT even constitutionally qualified to be POTUS.

WHERE'S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE?

JUST VISIT http://WWW.WORLDNETDAILY.COM AND JOIN THE BATTLE TO RID AMERICA OF ITS FAKE POTUS.

USPatriot56

Pat Supports Obama - Change is working!
After reading this column, I have hope that change is working. Pat B. actually supports Obama's approach toward Iran. Gone are the days when naive and clueless was thrown around to describe a president whose only fault was 'let's try diplomacy first' because war has not worked well for us:)

Congratulations Pat and welcome to the change we can all believe in as we craft a US Policy based on human dignity and mutual respect for other cultures.


Charles: The Israeli attack
on the US in 1967 was a FALSE-FLAG operation requested by LBJ.

There is an audio tape of him saying "I want that damn** ship" at the bottom of the sea ...

or something like that.

BTW 9/11 was a false-flag operation as well.

If you are a patriot then you need to get up to speed and understand that our nation has been hijacked by a shadow government of global financiers.

Pat B. knows this is true or he is an idiot.

I am a Christian and I support Israel's right to exist. You obvioulsy do not,

Obama is an anti-semite, a puppet of Wall Street, and was elected fraudulently. He is also NOT a natural born citizen and is therefore NOT eligible to sit as POTUS.

Where is the Birth Certificate?

Find out by visiting http://www.worldnetdaily.com.

Save America - unseat Obama!

USPatriot56

Sheik: Obama's plan is to ....
try and use Iran against Russia.

He is following the plans put forth by Zbignew Brysinski.

This is all part of a strategy for the US to capture all of the world's oil reserves and deprive Russia of any oil at all.

We already control Iraq's oil fields. Now Obama is going after Iran's.

You are completely deceived by Obama.

Where is the birth certificate?

Visit http://www.worldnetdaily.com and join in the battle to remove Obama from office.

USPatriot56

Charles
Whats wrong your INFAMOUS LEADER OBAMA is a LIAR

He has been on his 160 day HATE AMERICA
TOUR, Opologising to all MUSLIMS that the BIG EVIL BUSH MADE THEM HATE US and we are sorry. Not Israel made them HATE us

Where did Israel do this or why didnt Obama blame them for all the things you are blathering about. I dont have much to say about Israel but I damn sure wont take the side of the ENEMY(MUSLIMS) over them like you LIBS do daily. No country is Perfect but I dont see Israel running around the WORLD BLOWING EVERYBODY UP and BEHEADING PEOPLE and until I see or read about them BLOWING EVERYBODY UP, I will take their side over the MUSLIMS side anyday.

Hell your boy JIMMA CATTA wants Obama to take HAMAS off the Terrorist List. Please cant yall rein in the PEANUT BRAIN who by the way started all this when he helped OVERTHROW THE SHAH of IRAN and let them hold US AMERICANS hostage for 444 days. I have never seen a group of people DEFEND THE ENEMY AS MUCH AS YOU LIBS HAVE DONE DURING THIS WAR ON TERROISM. Theres more and if I told you ,you would BE SHOCKED

All the Muslims might not be Terrorist but all the Terrorist are MUSLIMS.

Will Iran Get US Tax Dollars?
Will Iran Get US Tax Dollars?
On Friday, the Senate passed a $108 billion blank check for IMF expansion, as part of the military supplemental, in response to a request from the administration in fulfillment of the U.S. commitment to global stimulus pledged at the G-20 meeting in April. Since this appropriation was not included in the House version of the bill, it is possible that the funding might be stripped, as Rep. Obey has stated is his preference, and Republicans have threatened to do. More likely, it provides an opportunity to include various key reforms, without which the funding will likely not achieve its intended impact of global stimulus and may actually do more harm than good.

http://blog.thehill.com/2009/05/26/new-funds-approved-for-i mf-would-worsen-global-economic-downturn/

There is an ongoing move by Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats to prevent Iran from receiving any money from the IMF, if such come from the US bailout.

Will The Iran Get US Tax Dollars?
Will Iran Get US Tax Dollars?
On Friday, the Senate passed a $108 billion blank check for IMF expansion, as part of the military supplemental, in response to a request from the administration in fulfillment of the U.S. commitment to global stimulus pledged at the G-20 meeting in April. Since this appropriation was not included in the House version of the bill, it is possible that the funding might be stripped, as Rep. Obey has stated is his preference, and Republicans have threatened to do. More likely, it provides an opportunity to include various key reforms, without which the funding will likely not achieve its intended impact of global stimulus and may actually do more harm than good.

http://blog.thehill.com/2009/05/26/new-funds-approved-for-i mf-would-worsen-global-economic-downturn/

There is an ongoing move by Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats to prevent Iran from receiving any money from the IMF, if such come from the US bailout.

Sheik - Are you an all or nothing guy?
Each individual is a sum of ideas - some good - some bad. To agree with one person on every idea is just a way to avoid thinking for yourself. So tell me - do you agree with Obama 100 percent?

SHEIK
POOR PAT
He is no different than Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton, scavaging off the Backs of the American Tax Payer.

Oh my bad he must be fixing to WRITE or RELEASE another Book(LIE)

YOU CAN KEEP THAT CHANGE, HELL WE MIGHT EVEN PAY YOU TO KEEP THAT CHANGE , PAT FOR LIB POTUS IN 2012,


Charles from PA....
You have a very interesting background. I used to be a Chippendale myself.

Quit Meddling In Israel's Affairs

It is strange how Obama does not want to meddle in Iran's internal affairs, but is more than willing to do so in Israel.

And, before some genius raises US foreign aid to Israel, which is $3bn/yr, I will show you how to save $66.3bn dollars over 4 years in addition to Israel's aid in the next post.

Obama needs to show more spine
The young and ordinary Iranian folks with little to no power-are showing more spine than our own President. The current events in that country could lead to potentially significant democratic reforms in the future, yet Obama has chosen to remain "politically correct" or polite. The current events may also be a testament to the burgeoning democracy in Iraq, its neighbor. Furthermore, if these protests/uprisings are a sign that the Iranians are becoming more restless and wanting to pursue real democracy, it could also be a testament to G.W. Bush's vision of democracy in that region. After all, one of the arguments for invading Iraq was to create a viable democratic government in that region - first Iraq, now possibly Iran. Wow.

I Just Saved $66.3bn Over 4 Years

Obama Will Increase Foreign Assistance Funding By $25 Billion.

Obama Will Provide $2 Billion To Aid Iraqi Refugees.

Obama Would Spend $500 Million A Year For Religious Organizations To Help The Disadvantaged; Equal To $2 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Would Add "65,000 Soldiers To The Army And 27,000 Marines," Which Would Cost Approximately $11.04 Billion Per Year, Equal To $44.16 Billion Over Four Years. It Costs Approximately $1.2 Billion A Year For 10,000 Soldiers.

Obama Would Provide An Additional $1 Billion Per Year In Non-Military Assistance To Afghanistan, Equal To $4 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Plans To Implement Legislation That Would "Triple Non-Military Aid To The Pakistani People. It Would Authorize $7.5 Billion Over Five Years, An Increase Of Approximately $5 Billion In Spending, Equal To A $1 Billion Increase Per Year.

Obama Would "Lead A Global Effort To Secure All Nuclear Weapons And Material At Vulnerable Sites Within Four Years." Obama Said This Could Be Funded By Ending The War In Iraq, At A Cost Of $10 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Would Implement The Lugar-Obama Legislation To Crack Down On The Smuggling Of Weapons Of Mass Destruction. According To The Congressional Budget Office, Implementing The Lugar-Obama Legislation (S. 2566) Would Cost $2.2 Billion Over Five Years, Which Averages Out To $440 Million Per Year And $1.76 Billion Over Four Years.

The Stupidity of the War Mongering Right
know no bounds.

Listen to the idiot Hannity go on about Obama's "apology tour" (he issued no apologies in his speech). Hugh Hewitt publishing irresponsible pieces telling the Iranian populace not to count on America. Limbaugh the Brain Dead saying the same thing.

It is amazing that the war mongers can't fathom a simple concept: That by admitting that we HAVE been heavy handed in our politics and our economic practices, not to mention W's military foibles, and by expressing a modicum of humility, we are, FINALLY, beginning to win the hearts and minds of those that count: The PEOPLE.

Buchanan is absolutely correct: The reason for this uprising in Iran is that President Obama's approach of humility and respect has taken away the Mullah's scapegoat. The Clerics call us the Great Satan; the PEOPLE do not. Iranians are young, intelligent and educated. Thay are a profoundly polite people. Neocons would know this and exploit it if they ever took time to learn their enemies. This is the biggest advantage we have against them. Obama's strategy toward them, and the rest of the world, is BRILLIANT. And it is working.

Bin Laden was able to convince 19 idiots to fly planes into buildings because US policy gave him a talking point. Now, we have Iranian people in the street telling reporters to tell President Obama that the mullahs don't speak for them.

But the neocons would still bomb bomb bomb Iran.

Idiots.

LeftUSA ... How do you know?
How do you know that anything will come of this uprising?
Pat brings up a good alternative point (as conservatives often do) but how does that make one an idiot for not agreeing? A lame remark on your part.

The Return Of Idealism?

"So I have been struck over the past few days by the response of American pundits to the events in Iran. I cannot remember the last time that there was such a clear consensus across the political spectrum that one side in an internal political dispute in another country deserved our unabashed support. Every publication from The Weekly Standard to The Nation seems exhilarated by the prospect of Iranian liberals standing up to the theocrats who rule their country. Of course, there are sharp disagreements over how we should support the protesters. Should Obama speak out loudly on their behalf? Or would a forceful American response simply aid the mullahs and undermine the protesters? These are important questions, but they are tactical ones. What no one seems to be disputing is the underlying idea that Iranian liberals deserve our support--that their fight is our concern.

It remains to be seen whether this consensus on Iran will trickle up to the White House. Obama has shown little appetite for criticizing other governments, for making the kinds of moral judgments that are at the core of foreign policy idealism. For now, you can at least make a plausible argument that Obama's relatively quiet approach is serving Iranian protesters well. But if we reach a situation--for instance, a Tiananmen-style crackdown--where it becomes obvious that strong condemnations and tough diplomacy will be required to protect Iranian liberals, will Obama have the stomach for it? And will public opinion be able to pressure him to do the right thing? That is when we will find out just how strong a comeback idealism has made."

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2009/06/15 /the-return-of-idealism.aspx

Pat, Pat,....... Pat....Sigh
You haven't learned one thing in your years in politics. The events in Iran have zero to do with the Won, they have to do with a people tired of totaliarian dictators. I just wish we had a POTUS with the cahones to back up those willing to fight and die to rid Iran of the Mulah's and that wackjob Ameneedajob.

Charles
"St Denis I like you BUT Israel is NOT
our ally. As a conservative Repub I was a supporter of Israel until age 38, about 5 years ago. But then I learned the TRUTH. Through Mossad, they are the worst enemy we have ever had. Trust me."

Thank you. I like you, too. As for Israel, it is our only real ally in the ME. Surely, you do not think that Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Egypt, etc., are our enemies.

Even the Palestinians are problems. Four roadside bombs were found along the road Jimmy Carter used this morning to leave the Gaza Strip. 3 Palestinians are in custody.

"Jews control 90% of the Dem Party. Jews control 40-60% of the Republican Party. Yet, the Repubs are still our only hope."

True. As the mother of two half-Jewish children, it amazes me that so many Jews have Democrats. My ex-husband and his entire family are Republicans and and they wonder how many Jews are experiencing buyer's remorse, especially since Obama threw Israel under the bus.

To Carlos:
I certainly can't guarantee that the people will overthrow the Mullahs. But I do have history on my side. Castro has remained in power all these years because he's had a scapegoat that just keeps walking into it, embodied by a ridiculous outdated embargo. Likewise, W's idiotic and belligerant rhetoric simply pisses off the Iranian on the street. No one likes to hear their country bad mouthed; I HATED listening to the rest of the world do it to us during the Bush years. But they were right; we were bullies, economically and militarily. We had an simpleton in the White House, and those of us who knew it wanted to shout as loud as we could: We're not like him! But at the same time, part of me wanted to stand up and say, "Hold on. Just because this simp stole an election and fear mongered his way into a second term, doesn't mean you can discount our entire history; you French forget pretty fast who you call on when you need help". So there's an element of patriotism (that's right; we on the left love our country as much as you) that was a line in the sand. Iranians are no different; they hate the mullahs, but love their country and don't want to hear it trashed. Now, they don't have to make that choice. No, I can't guarantee you there'll be sea change in Iran, but I CAN guarantee you this is the best shot at it.

????
Here is another example of Pat Robertson being not only wrong but completely clueless. He starts by saying Obama's diplomacy is working , then writes an entire article talking about Iran's political troubles which have absolutely nothing to do with Obama's action (inaction). This guy has proven once again his irrelevance. Good job Pat! Moron.

LEFT USA
So what is your Concept about all those thousands of IRANIANS now MARCHING through the streets of IRAN praising ACHY for WINNING TODAY

Dosent sound like THE EMAM OBAMA got his Way with them after all , WOW TALKING REALLY WORKS

Well so much for HOPE and Change in IRAN

Now off to continue building NUCLEAR WEAPONS to BLOW UP THE INFEDELS and thats also MEANS you LEFTY

ALAH AKBAR LEFTY ALAH AKBAR

Carter/Buchanan 2012!
After all, doing nothing is a surefire way to combat hostility, just ask Neville Chamberlain.

Unbelievable.

St. Denis
That's a good analysis.

Lilly - try to read more carefully
Whatever Israeli settlers may have said does not speak for Israel however much "one of New York's major newspapers" would like you to believe.

Statements by individuals within any country do not constitute government policy. I will ask you once again: provide at least one report from a responsible news medium where Israel threatened to bomb Iran "back to the Stone Age." It is Iran, not Isreal that has been making threats.

Let's see: Iran's president (not just any man in the street) has threatened to wipe Israel off the map and Iran is developing nuclear weapons. But you say that Iran could no more harm Israel than it could harm the U.S. Wow! That level of naivety hasn't been seen since Chamberlin waved his little paper.

I do indeed believe Buchanan to be anti-semitic based not merely on today's article, but on his writings and actions over the last ten years or so.





did you see that photo of a
guy in Iran with a Che Guevara tattoo? Ohmy, what if Iran goes communist? What will all these neocons do?

LeftUSA... Please consider this..
Look - I agree with part of what you're saying - this might be the time to resolve the issue. But consider this...We attacked Serbs (Christian Whites) to protect Muslims. Kuwait exists now because of us. Women and girls can hold office and go to school in Afghanistan, There are no more mass grave in Iraq. I'm not waving the flag - I never thought we should have gotten involved - but that's how it adds up.

The Progressive's Love for Thugs
One could go back to Kant's quip that the Bloody Robbespiere actions were a New Beginning; or Hegel's crush on Napolean; or Wilson's admiration for Bismarck, and the Durante's man-crush on Stalin. Be it Che or Lennin (he referred to the Left as usefull idiots), one can always count on the Left to love Thugs. Is it fear that drives so many of the Left into the arms of men like Saddam or Castro? Or is it admiration for them, and a shared hatred for thier own society.

Columbia gave Admadinejad a forum for him to spew his hatred. Back in 2006, quite a few editorialists (The NYTs, Time Mag to name 2) wet thier pants they were so giddy to have such a violent, muderous tyrant in thier own backyard. Many women of the Left thought he was sexy. Many women of the Left said the samething in the early 1930s about Hitler.

Somethings will never change. The Left's adoration of tyrants is one of them.

Lilly
"It's becoming extremely tiresome, but here
comes the fake fear again. Iran can threaten
to it's heart's content, but it's all impotent
hyperbole. Iran could no more harm Israel than
it could harm the U.S. Israel pretends to be
shaking with fear to justify an attack on Iran."

Tell that to the families of the 19 US Airmen who were murdered in a bomb explosion in 1996 in the Khobar Towers. Iranian intelligence officers planned, paid for, and executed that strike.

Or tell that to the families of the 49 Jewish victims of the 2002 bombing of a Buenos Aires Jewish Center. Again, Iranian intelligence (this time using Hamas) planned and executed the bombing.

So, it is easy for you to talk about "fake fear". But then again, you could care less about either servicemen or Jews.

Pat's become a Progressive!
Just when I think I can predict how Pat will bounce on an issue, he comes along to mess with my mind. In this column he was writing as if he was Obama's press secretary! Gotta love it!

Pat's accepted the liberal/Progressive idea that idealistic young people can prevail in politics, even when facing a hard-a**ed tyrant like Ahmadinejad. It's sort of like transplanting "Yes we can!" to Tehran, with the protesting Iranian youth substituting for the Obama faithful at a campaign rally.

Don't get me wrong. As a a liberal myself, I think that there's at least something valid in all this hope. But we should do two things: 1. Don't trust the Iranian leadership to sing kumbaya--in other words--remain in a state of readiness to take action, and 2. our fearless leader should start saying that he's in tune with the Iranian youth and their desire for freedom.

Charles

My ex-husband is Jewish.

Buchanan has this wrong
The discontent with Iran's rulers has been growing year after year. To suggest that any of this has anything to do with Obama's "outstretched hand", is, with all due respect to Mr. Buchanan - silly.

I don't know whether any of this in Iran has anything to do with the U.S. whatsoever. But if it does, I would suspect that it has more to do with President George W. Bush than Obama.

Mr. Bush believed - and opposed by many - that ousting Hussein in Iraq and bring some form of freedom and democracy in Iraq, might be contagious to the surrounding nations.

I don't know how much Mr. Bush's plans may have affected the situation in Iraq -- maybe none. But I am certain that an empty sophomoric speech by Obama last week -- has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Also, just because there's riots by those who claim the election was stolen -- how does that make it so? And regardless of how much we would like to see their current regime fail, what were they supposed to do with the rioters -- standby and allow them to takeover the country? I don't think Iran will loose anything over this one way or the other. Pat Buchanan may be guilty of a little wishful thinking here.

But I do think that Mr. Buchanan can rest easy if he's concerned about Obama possibly beating the war drums. He's had no such intentions as that. His leadership, savvy and wherewithal -- begin and end with speeches.

LeftUSA
"It is amazing that the war mongers can't fathom a simple concept: That by admitting that we HAVE been heavy handed in our politics and our economic practices, not to mention W's military foibles, and by expressing a modicum of humility, we are, FINALLY, beginning to win the hearts and minds of those that count: The PEOPLE."

Do you really think the Iranian protestors trust anyone from the Left. When AQ was butchering Iraqis in 2004-2006, it was the American Left who demanded we admit defeat and leave. And when the Bush's surge had pacified most of Iraq, it was Obama, Clinton, and Reid who said it was an unmitigated defeat (just 2 weeks before the NYTs said it was an unmitigated victory).

Your fantasies are astonishing. If the world learnt anything from Bush and the GOP, it was they do not run from a fight. Obama and the Dems, in broad daylight announced to the world cira 2004-2007 that they have no guts, and as far as arabs and Persians are concerned, they are on thier own. Obama on the stump and as President has said many times that he doesn't believe that the West (ie the US) has the right to "impose democracy" on any arab nation. His treatment of Iraq's government and Afghanistan's governemnt has been noted. No American Liberal or Progressive can be counted -they are all self absorbed cowards.

The Iranians and Iraq
For 5 years now, the Iranians have seen Iraq build a better society. Despite horrible bloodshed and violence, Bush and the GOP stood by the Iraqis. The Iranians want the same freedoms. And they know perfectly well where Obama, Clinton, Reid, Pelosi, Durbin, Kennedy, et als stand. If things turn out well, Obama and the Left will of course sieze all of the credit. But the Arabs know full well who deserves the credit.

Obama's lapdog, sychophanitc speech in Cairo let all Muslims know where he stands. The Left is not to be trusted with anyone's freedoms.

To Gatorbait
I don't normally bother with people of your level of intellect, but briefly, the Pro-Amadinejad people are like the loyalists during the American Revolution. No revolution ever has 100% support. Let's say they're 50% of the population; according to the allegations of electoral fraud, they're fewer than that. But if we maintain the belligerent attitude of the Bush simpletons, we'll have 100% of the people against us. If we extend a hand, and respect their ability to solve their own problems, while simultaneously letting them know that we will no longer treat them as the Mullahs HOPE we will, then we'll turn 50% of the people to us.

Let me know if you need me to do the math for you.

To JPK Part 1
Let me explain to you how the world works:

When bad people get power, the first goal is to keep it. Witness the Mullahs in Iran, or W and Cheney here, or Castro in Cuba, or the House of Saud in Saudi Arabia. The best way to keep power is to dupe the stoopid masses into believing that they are protecting them from an external threat. This is called "scapegoating" and serves as a diversion from the real ills of their society. The average Saudi gets indoctrinated in a Madrass because the Sauds want them to think there's this great enemy out there; US. At the same time, the ruling class knows they need us to buy their oil.

Conversely, W and Cheney had to make us believe that the evil Arabs all want to destroy us. Can't have the American idiots focus on the fact that they were stealing all the wealth in this country. 9/11 fit the bill perfectly. 19 maniacs fly planes into buildings, and W used that and played the morons in this country like a piano. Why? Because otherwise we'd be aware of what was being done to us by our Government under W. So the Neocons were actually able to convince people that buying bigger gas guzzlers was a smart way to stick it to all the tree huggers. Meantime, the Oil companies and their corporate thieves get rich, and so do the Sauds, while the average Joe in each country gets the shaft. Now....

To JPK Part 2
...you can see how this same scenario plays out in Iran. It is imperative to the Mullahs that the people see us as the enemy. W played right into that, because it was equally useful for him to have the American Idiot hate the Iranians at the same time. After all, the American Idiot doesn't see Iranians as any different than the Saudis; they're both Aye-rabs, right? (no, they're not). The more enemies, the merrier. Keeps the American Idiot's mind off the fact that corporations were sucking up all the money. It is a symbiotic and mutully beneficial relationship for the corrupt in power.

President Obama is breaking that cycle, and thank God for that. Only the genuinely well intentioned can remain in power without a scapegoat; if the majority of the population benefits, they will maintain their government in power. Obama has no need for a phony "War" on "Terror", when in fact there are a relatively few maniacs, duped in the same way as the American Idiot by corrupt leaders in their own country, like bin Laden, who want to harm us. His policies will serve to begin to distribute wealth in this country fairly; there will be no need to distract attention to a scapegoat. This leaves the Mullahs in a predicament they don't want: They need our cooperation in keeping their people down, but we're not giving it.

It may take some time, but it will eventually work. The rabid anti American sentiment, to the extent it exists in Iran, will die out. Likewise, the war mongering right in the US will become less and less relevant. It's already happening. And whether you like it or not, we're not going to be bombing anybody anymore. Nor are we going to back Israel if they do.

So get used to diplomacy and brains over fear and panic. It's here to stay.

PB's main point here...
.. is not letting Israel extort the US into some insane attack on Iran. Despite Israeli fear mongering, the only immediate prospect of war is Israel going off on some "pre-emptive" strike looniness (that a nation takes seriously a so-called "Samson Option" tells us everything about how trustworthy its collective mental health is).
One of the most telling issues here is the quality of posters above who attack Buchanan. He seems to bring out opponents who are barely literate, ill informed, and obsessed with violence (like Gatorbait, who apparently types with his thumbs).


Slate Mag: Obama Must Walk Away


Slate: After its fraudulent election, Obama must walk away from Iran.

http://www.slate.com/id/2220555/

LeftUSA

"Obama has no need for a phony "War" on "Terror"

Great. I bet he can't wait for more buildings to fall and bodies to litter American streets.

"when in fact there are a relatively few maniacs"

Yes, it took 19 maniacs to crash 4 planes and kill nearly 3,000 of your countrymen, women and children, but in your world, who cares?

"duped in the same way as the American Idiot by corrupt leaders in their own country"

Yes, both Clintons, Fat Al Gore, John Kerry, Chuckie Schumer, and innumerable Democrats were on the record in the late 1990s as saying that Saddam had WMD.

"His policies will serve to begin to distribute wealth in this country fairly"

Oh, more Cloward-Piven talk. Listen up, you have NO right to my money. As for my "wealth", you will need to find it. I paid my taxes on it and removed it from financial institutions last year.

"They need our cooperation in keeping their people down, but we're not giving it."

Right, the Mullahs need your cooperation to squash their people like bugs.

The halcyon days have returned.

To Carlos Part 1
I appreciate the reasoned response.

First of all, more people have died in Iraq after our invasion and occupation than before. Look at popular sentiment there: They want us OUT. At the end of the day, people just want to live their lives. Saddam was a bad guy, but there are LOTS of bad guys out there. He had nothing to do with 9/11, and nobody asked us to come in and save them. Yes, when he invaded Kuwait, the Kuwaitis asked us for help. A more mature President, Bush I, responded, did the job, and wisely stopped short of trying to take over the country. I'm amazed that Neocons are against the Government takeover of GM but all for the Government takeover of Iraq.

I am not a fan of ANY religion, and Islam is probably the worst of them. I'm not making a case for preventing women from voting or working. But the idea that we're going to go in with our bombs and FORCE change by "liberating" every country that doesn't measure up to our ideals is ridiculous. Look at history: Whether you believe Reagan brought down the USSR (he didn't) or that it collapsed due to an unsustainable economy and rampant corruption (it did), not a shot was fired. Cuba's regime will be gone within 5 years of the embargo being lifted, unless they go democratic. China has embraced a capitalistic economy, and the Government's hand has been weakened since Tiananmen Square. They know they have to allow people to live their lives to stay in power. Eventually, all brands of tyranny fall. There will always be corrupt autocratic governments somewhere. It's not Whack-a-Mole; we can't stop them all. That's not our mission as a nation. The motto is "Give US your tired, your hungry, your poor..." not "We'll come over there and bomb your country till everyone's fed and rich".


To Carlos Part 2
We will change the world and promote freedom by EXAMPLE, not by force. In the end, it's each country's people's responsibility to make their own destiny. That's what's happening in Iran. If the reformists manage to overthrow the Mullahs in Iran, everyone wins: Israel, us, and them. This is the only scenario with that result. Any meddling by us will only result in a less desirable outcome.

We should be rooting for them, and hoping. And that's all.

St Denis
You're exactly the type of idiot that tyranny needs. Keep it up. But good luck with that; you're a dying breed.


Lilly, tell me you're not serious...
...Lebanon electing a prowestern parliament is because of Obama being elected???
from the HuffPo: Obama's speech did not resonate in the election campaign. But warnings by the United States that it could reconsider aid depending on the election's outcome have sparked Hezbollah accusations of U.S. interference. The U.S. has given around $1 billion to Lebanon's pro-Western government since 2006 (Uh, 2006...that would be your "Hated Bush Regime"

those policies regarding Lebanon were put into place by Reagan, kept up through Bush and Clinton and not until the last Bush regime, were given any teeth. Obama did zero.

And to say that Obama resolved the Somali pirate situation is laughable at best. The commander on scene was the one to take action. Obama just stayed out of the way after waffling for 5 days

Buchannan
Always right on foreign policy as usual. Good article - there's no need to waste more American lives in a war with Iran. We've intervened enough, in fact, if we hadn't intervened before we probably wouldn't have the Ayatollah's and Ahmedinijad now. If we intervene again we might as well annex the country because of how much we control it. We don't need an American empire - it wastes lives, breaks up families, weakens our national defense, stirs up hatred, and bankrupts the nation.

LeftUSA
I'm no progressive or anything but you're totally right. Unfortunately many of the other conservatives here are pro-war like the progressives were traditionally, such as Wilson and FDR. It's a shame.

I wish my Party, the Republicans, would stop defending torture and empire. It is illogical, and it's not conservative. It's also not Christian, and many of those defending torture and imperialism call themselves Christian. I remember Doug Giles saying a couple of weeks ago that spirituality (God) takes a back seat to security. I'll tell you so-called Christian's something: God never takes a back seat to anything.

We need to bring our troops home, not just from Iraq, but Germany, Korea, Africa, and the dozens of other countries we have troops in. We also need to end our limitless support of Israel - it can defend itself. If it really needs our help it should be paying us instead of us constantly sending them money while their economy does well compared to the rest of the world. Our support of Israel just connects us to their problems, like when they killed children while trying to kill terrorists in their recent offensives. End our entangling alliances, not just with Israel, but others, such as the tyrannical Saudi Arabians. Let's drill for our own oil and live in peace and prosperity, as much as can be achieved.

LeftUSA
"St Denis
You're exactly the type of idiot that tyranny needs. Keep it up. But good luck with that; you're a dying breed."


Really? I am a fiscally-conservative CONSTITUTIONALIST without party affiliation and I have been one since obtaining two degrees in economics and finance, a law degree, and a Master's in economics.

Tyranny? Yes, we are beginning to see that with the Tsars, aren't we? They are not answerable to Congress. They can implement fees and taxes, which are unconstitutional. Even Robert Byrd agrees with me on the unconstitutionality of the Tsars.

My children are half-Jewish. My ex-husband is part of a European Jewish family, who lost members in the Holocaust; thus, I am particularly sensitive to the possibility of any wide-spread annihilation of peoples, whether in Israel or the protestors in Iran.

I was also in NYC in 1993 when the first WTC attacked occurred and I know many people, who escaped 09.11.01.

People, who forget history, are destined to repeat it.

LeftUSA

You should also know that I am young and do not intend on going anywhere.

"When your adversary is making a fool ..
... of himself, get out of the way."

That is a rule of politics that Ho Chi Minh sheeted home via the example of the foolishly micro-managing Lyndon Baines Johnson gang. And that the Johnson Gang never learned.

Every one of them too damned busy picking up the crumbs of Johnson's massive corruption as he, having shouldered the execrable war-profiting Kennedy Gang aside and himself for a time heading up the Left's military-industrial complex, accumulated the 1.5 Billion (2009-Dollar) estate the failed schoolteacher, Johnson, never having earned other than the government's dole, willed to his widow.

B R A - L A

great posts oogywoogy at 5:55
It looks like there ARE conservatives at TH besides Pat B. The original conservative president, Geo.Washington advised that as best we can, "Observe good faith and justice with all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all." He said this will benefit us in the long run. We should be thinking about the long run.
We do not need to repeat the LIBERAL nation- building policies of Bush.

Intervening in Iran will inflame most Muslims, even Sunnis who despise Iran. It already happened in the first Gulf War. Muslims despised Iraq and its leader for invading Kuwait. But as soon as the US led the intervention, their opinion completely reversed itself against us. And while G Bush I and his buddies were guffawing it up about how easily we mopped up the Iraq's republican guard,rage began building that led 19 men to commit mass murder. For an enlightening read on how cultures overcome internal differences and rally against outsiders, see THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS by samuel huntington.

LeftUSA You mean like Rwanda?
I'm not part of the Hitler Youth Brigade - so You don't have to complement me for giving a thoughtful reply. Any tyrant who would create mass graves can only be stopped by a trained military. That's called self defense - not war mongering. I just want to drink beer and relax like the next guy - why would I want to start a war?

I love it
you have to attack a true conservative (one with whom I never agree) because you don't like what he says. Wow, will you accuse him of being gay too?

Pat-Conservative?
Pat's difficult to figure-I've agreed/disagreed with his comments about half the time. This time he's taking the weenie approach - so weak he will "live and let live." As a conservative neo-con, I can't buy his "wait and see" when that attitude has put us in a position where we are allowing a country which has vowed to destroy us and our allies with a bomb which could do so. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are honest; they mean to destroy us. Pat is absolutely not a conservative on this one. gene, longmont

thank you pat,
if most of the townhall haters can get over the hate, they have for President Obama, they will see how intelligent this president is.....President Obama ways of solving problems is very different to any other president i have seen......on the other side going against President Obama is ppl like rush,shawn and beck..they will NEVER get off the sidelines, but will cont shouting hate and lies but will never put anything on the line....this is who most repubs follow blindly.....

Carlos
The reason I recognized your reasoned response is that it stands out from some of the others on TH...not because I think you're Hitler youth. Didn't mean to offend you by complimenting you.

You have to admit your "live and let live" attitude is not the norm amongst the posters here.

Enjoy your beer :)

St Denis
Wow. That's a lot of education for someone so stupid. Good for you.

No, I didn't mean you were LITERALLY dying...I meant your type, the warmongering flag waver, is a dying breed. I'm sure you'll live a long life...you'll just be a frustrated person as this country finally evolves away from the mindset of the neocons.

I do admit, however, to a certain amount of dark satisfaction as I watch your ilk stew and pout, while Obama steadily goes about cleaning up the mess that Republicans starting with Reagan and ending with W created.


LeftUSA
"Wow. That's a lot of education for someone so stupid. Good for you."

I am anything, but stupid. I played on your post when I wrote my first post to you.

"No, I didn't mean you were LITERALLY dying...I meant your type, the warmongering flag waver, is a dying breed. I'm sure you'll live a long life...you'll just be a frustrated person as this country finally evolves away from the mindset of the neocons."

I happen to be the mother of two half-Jewish children. My ex-husband belongs to a European Jewish family that lost members in the Holocaust; therefore, I am particularly sensitive to widespread death and destruction whether Israeli or Iranian protestors.

I was against going into Iraq. I would have carpetbombed Afghanistan once we knew that OBL was there and prevented American soldiers from being killed. I am not calling for US military intervention in Iran, but I would like to see Obama be as hard on Ahmadinejad as Sarkozy was, at minimum. I am a fiscally-conservative Constitutionalist without party affiliation, which would make it difficult for me to be a neo-con.

"I do admit, however, to a certain amount of dark satisfaction as I watch your ilk stew and pout, while Obama steadily goes about cleaning up the mess that Republicans starting with Reagan and ending with W created."

Yeah, it must suck knowing that Obama will never be Reagan.


Oh, lloyd
if most of the townhall haters can get over the hate, they have for President Obama, they will see how intelligent this president is.....President Obama ways of solving problems is very different to any other president i have seen......on the other side going against President Obama is ppl like rush,shawn and beck..they will NEVER get off the sidelines, but will cont shouting hate and lies but will never put anything on the line....this is who most repubs follow blindly.....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just call this fiscally-conservative Constitutionalist a member of Code Pink, MoveOn.org, Media Matters, etc.

Please let us know when Obama solves his FIRST problem. We are still waiting. It is sort of like when many of us wrote that we were against the stimulus because it would not help the economy or lower unemployment. We did not have to "guess".

terry of GA @ 16:48 wrote
"The discontent with Iran's rulers has been growing year after year. To suggest that any of this has anything to do with Obama's 'outstretched hand', is, with all due respect to Mr. Buchanan--silly.

I don't know whether any of this in Iran has anything to do with the U.S. whatsoever. But if it does, I would suspect that it has more to do with President George W. Bush than Obama."

Really, you should be suspecting Ronald W. Reagan than either of the Jorge Bushes (especially Jr.) since discontent with the mullahcracy started in 1980's (note: agree US is probably only coincidental in the matter, see below).

By 1985 over 10,000 Iranians had been spotted (and recorded) by BSF crossing from Sindh into India's western states of Gujarat and Rajasthan (the desert-border-areas of India/Pakistan are at minimum 600 miles from Iran/Pakistan border, and not even vehicle-friendly); by 1988 over 12,000 refugee-claims by Iranians had been processed/approved (the numbers are admittedly not enormous, but they are the largest numbers I have ever heard of going to a SUBSTANTIALLY-LESS PROSPEROUS country as refugees--it certainly projects a great depth of discontent, and IMO shows an accurate picture of the tyranny/despotism of Iran's regime).

thank you pat,
President Obama is going to be a great president simply because he's for the ppl and also a honest president....eight yrs from now this country will be back on track..let the cry babies rush,shawn,beck cont to shout their hate and lies....they will never do anything other than sit in a studio and feed their ppl redmeat...they claim to know how to do things better but will never run for office...why???its easy to sit and wish for failure and criticise everything than it is to run and prove you know what your talking about..

Left OUT Is Full Of Crap !

Given the similarity in the underlying economic dynamic in the two societies, why did the Soviet economy fall first? Lloyd Dumas ( The Overburdened Economy )correctly predicted this in 1986 because the Soviets were trying to match U.S. arms production, weapon for weapon, with a smaller initial baseline economy.

In the end, however, the Soviet Union had devoted its economy to the arms race with the West, and it was a losing cause.

St. Denis
You'd carpet bomb an entire country to kill one man, yet you're against widespread death and destruction. Ohhhh-kay.

I am gratified to hear though that you were against Bush's folly in Iraq. Good for you.

It does NOT, in fact, suck knowing Obama will not be another Reagan. I am eternally grateful for that.

I'll give you a shot at this though: Tell me, please, if you were President, what you would do differently about this situation in Iran. If you don't mind.

Thanks

St Denis #2
Oh, one more thing: don't even TRY to use 9/11 against me. I live 2 blocks north of the World Trade Center. I was there. I heard the first plane hit, and I WATCHED the second one hit. I saw people jumping and I heard the thuds as the bodies hit the ground. My 9/11 credentials are impeccable. But my brain, not my emotions, rule my reaction to it. I won't fall for the fearmongering. I am more inclined to outsmart the people who perpetrated that atrocity. Those of you who fell for Bush's BS were played for suckers. That is precisely the reaction that was intended by bin Laden, et al. Start a war of hate. Get the US to bomb innocents. My preference would have been to render them irrelevant, their greatest fear. You're not going to bring the 3,000 back to life. Better to save the NEXT 3,000, wouldn't you say?

And that is PRECISELY what President Obama is doing. It is beyond refreshing to have a thoughtful, intelligent President after eight years of frat boy, fearmongering insanity.

LeftUSA
Tell me, please, if you were President, what you would do differently about this situation in Iran. If you don't mind.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would suggest that he take at least as hard of a position is my cheese-eating surrender monkey, French.

Carpetbomb where AQ was in Afghanistan. Yes, I certainly would have done so and I would not have let up until Tora Bora was flattened.

LeftOUT Can't Do The Math !

Just 29 percent of Iranians said they have favorable views of the United States in the latest poll, which was conducted last month. In a similar survey in February 2008 — nearly a year before Barack Obama became president — 34 percent had positive opinions about the U.S.

Time To Shut Your Pie Hole,Buffoon !

LeftUSA - Iran, North Korea & AQ

Iran:

Has had some type of nuclear technology since 1953. The Iranian Revolution occurred in 1979 during the Carter Administration. Ahmadinejad was one of the Revolutionary Guards that held Americans hostage. Mousavi was connected with Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons in the 1980s.


North Korea:

Has been playing these games since the Clinton Administration. You do recall Secretary of State Madeline Albright, do you not? She dealt with North Korea and the IAEA during the Clinton terms. She even went to North Korea in 2000.

Al Qaeda:

Has been bombing sites here since the WTC in 1993 and hit American targets overseas throughout the Clinton Administration.


None of this started with Reagan, Bush, Clinton, etc. It will not end with Obama.

St Denis
This is indecipherable:

"I would suggest that he take at least as hard of a position is my cheese-eating surrender monkey, French."

..so I'm not sure how to comment on it. IF, however, you're suggesting that he should voice US support for the opposition in Iran, you are completely, entirely wrong.

That's precisely what the Mullahs would like: to be able to denounce the opposition as US-supported. That's why the opposition hasn't asked us for it, and that's why Obama hasn't done it. The moment we put the US seal of approval on the opposition, they're done for.

Diplomacy 101. Wouldn't expect you to understand that.

And by carpetbombing "Where AQ was in Afghanistan", you'd be killing thousands of innocent men, women and children. That would make you just like...bin Laden.

LeftUSA - Mousavi & Nuclear Weapons 1
I tried to warn many people last week not to get their hopes up about a possible sea change in Iran.

Iran:

Has had some type of nuclear technology since 1953. The Iranian Revolution occurred in 1979 during the Carter Administration. Ahmadinejad was one of the Revolutionary Guards that held Americans hostage. Mousavi was connected with Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons in the 1980s.

"IAEA reports are an endlessly fascinating source of information. Mir Hussein Mousavi is widely viewed as Iran’s presidential candidate with the strongest support from reform-minded voters and is on record supporting renewed dialogue with the Perm-5 plus 1 on Iran’s nuclear program (according to recent media reports, he may also be on the verge of staging a stunning upset of incumbent Ahmadinejad, or at least forcing the election to a run-off). While ISIS has no reason to doubt Mousavi’s reformist credentials, and is encouraged by his commitment to renewed diplomacy with the United States and others, it is worth taking note of a small but important role that Mousavi played in the development of Iran’s uranium enrichment program in the 1980s.


leftUSA
Fair enough - on that we will agree.

LeftUSA - Mousavi & Nuclear Weapons 2
cont.

According to the November 2007 IAEA report, the decision to acquire centrifuge technology from the A.Q. Khan network was made by Iran’s Atomic Energy Organization and endorsed by then-Prime Minister Mousavi in 1987. In 2007, Iran provided the IAEA with a copy of a “confidential communication” between the AEOI and Prime Minister Mousavi dated March 5, 1987 in which the AEOI President stated that Iran’s activities with the Khan network “should be treated fully confidentially.” The communication was intended in part to substantiate Iran’s assurances to the IAEA that no military organization was involved in the centrifuge program. Mousavi effectively approved Iran’s use of the black market to pursue its secret gas centrifuge program. This decision, made more than two decades ago, may not reflect Mr. Mousavi’s current thinking regarding Iran’s nuclear program or nuclear proliferation in general, but it is worth being aware of."

He has stated that he would not disband the nuclear weapons programme.

To Tim
I don't normally respond to people of your obvious intellectual limitations. However, it's customary to cite your sources (not that your stats mean anything).

Do you think that that stat means anything after eight years of Bush beligerance?

But yes, indeed, sorry, I'll shut my pie hole for you. Absolutely. No wait, I won't.

LeftUSA
"I would suggest that he take at least as hard of a position is my cheese-eating surrender monkey, French."

> It is an American nickname for the French

"..so I'm not sure how to comment on it. IF, however, you're suggesting that he should voice US support for the opposition in Iran, you are completely, entirely wrong."

My position is the same as most journalists on both the Left and the Right.

"That's precisely what the Mullahs would like: to be able to denounce the opposition as US-supported. That's why the opposition hasn't asked us for it, and that's why Obama hasn't done it. The moment we put the US seal of approval on the opposition, they're done for."

According to Salon Magazine, they are already being rounded up and killed. They were screaming "They are killing us". This is very much like Tiananmen Square. The international journalists will be out of country within a day or two. Afterwards, Ahmadinejad will have many of the dissidents disappear - permanently.

"Diplomacy 101. Wouldn't expect you to understand that."

Diplomats from around the world agree with me.

"And by carpetbombing "Where AQ was in Afghanistan", you'd be killing thousands of innocent men, women and children. That would make you just like...bin Laden."

No, it would make me just like Obama when he issues missile strikes on homes and compounds in Afghanistan and Pakistan. There have been numerous innocent men, women and children killed.

More, please
More of this is what is needed in this country. Not necessarily Pat Buchanan, mind you, but more politicos/commentators willing to support the policy of the opposing party when they honestly feel it is the correct policy. I direct this to those on the left and right equally.

St. Denis
The perpetrator of the first WTC bombing is rotting in prison.

North Korea hasn't killed any Americans, and yes, Clinton, Bush 1 and Bush 2, as well as international coalitions, have tried, and exhausted every possible means of getting a crazy man to listen to reason. Agree completely that it's been ineffective. Obama, just today, stated that that methodology was going to change. We're intercepting ships bound to North Korea, and thankfully, haven't offered them anything this time to get them to stop their activities. Seems like Obama's getting this one right, too.

Lastly, Iran has the right to pursue nuclear power. They should be allowed to do so under close watch by the IAEA. This would afford them respect and provide us with a more effective means of monitoring their pursuit of weaponry, if they go that route. Certainly better monitoring than W's idiotic labeling of them as "evil". Boy, THAT was a smart move; nuts want nuclear weaponry, let's antagonize them. Then they'll cooperate.

Can't you do better than this?

Pat & Obama together again
Pat supposes that Obama would actually want to overturn the election results if he thought they were fraudulent.

What a joke.

Obama wants Ack Man dini Jad in office - they are kindred souls.

Both have been elected with massive voter fraud ...

AND ...

both hate Israel ...

And so, it seems does Pat.

Maybe that is why he cannot see how foolish this article is.

Who cares what Reagan, Bush I, Carter, or anyone else did.

This is NOT your daddy's USA, Pat.

This president is NOT even constitutionally qualified to be POTUS, so who cares what his policy is?

And he is NOT "playing it smart". Youy give him too much credit Pat.

IT is much, much simpler than that.

He WANTS Ack Man dini Jad in office.

Ack Man dini Jad is HIS MAN in IRAN.

BTW ... WHERE'S THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE?

JUST VISIT http://WWW.WORLDNETDAILY.COM AND JOIN THE BATTLE TO RID AMERICA OF ITS FAKE POTUS.

USPatriot56

St. Denis
I'm familiar with the phrase "cheese eating surrender monkeys". You stole that from the Simpsons. What I'm wondering is, what sort of "postion" would the French take? It's a simple question: what would you do?

They're killing protesters. Right. I saw that on the TV. So what would you do? Send in troops?

No diplomat has voiced that opinion. Not one. The only ones who have even suggested we should speak out on behalf of the oppostion are idiots like Eric Cantor and John McCain. Thank GOD McCain isn't president right about now.

I have to agree with you about the missile strikes in Pakistan. Bush started that. I believe that Obama is far more discretionary in their use. However, at the same time, Obama's intelligent diplomacy is, in fact, winning over many in the middle east that hated us under the Fredo Bush. Doesn't happen overnight. You can't undo the damage caused by 8 years of intense stupidity in 5 months.

Oh, yeah, at this point I'm compelled to remind you that 9/11 happened on Bush's watch. No denying that, that's for sure. And OBL is still out there, living life, doing as he pleases. Almost EIGHT YEARS LATER.

At any rate, while I'm sure you'll disagree, the fact of the matter is that Obama is president, the Neocons had their shot, they screwed everything up, from war to the economy, and now they're gone. Won't be back anytime soon, either.

LeftUSA - I
"The perpetrator of the first WTC bombing is rotting in prison."

Only because he was caught in America.

"North Korea hasn't killed any Americans"

The Korean War? How about the two journalists that were just sentenced to 12 years in a labor camp where real torture, starvation, and executions occur all of the time?

"and yes, Clinton, Bush 1 and Bush 2, as well as international coalitions, have tried, and exhausted every possible means of getting a crazy man to listen to reason. Agree completely that it's been ineffective."

You cannot negotiate with nuts with nukes or with nuts that believe they must bring about mass death and destruction to hasten the return of the 12th Imam, who was a 6 year-old boy that disappeared 1100 years ago.


LeftUSA - II
"We're intercepting ships bound to North Korea, and thankfully, haven't offered them anything this time to get them to stop their activities. Seems like Obama's getting this one right, too."

North Korea has stated that any interception will be a declaration of war on the part of the US. Further, what will the US do if it forces the ships into port? The UN has not said what the US can do.

"Lastly, Iran has the right to pursue nuclear power."

They are sitting on a vast ocean of oil and natural gas (the 2nd largest reserve in the world). They do not need nuclear power. Obama will not let us expand our nuclear power capabilities. Why does Obama not send Iran windmills and solar panels?


"They should be allowed to do so under close watch by the IAEA."

Just like in North Korea, the IAEA inspectors get kicked out repeatedly in Iran.

"This would afford them respect and provide us with a more effective means of monitoring their pursuit of weaponry, if they go that route."

Respect? And, allow them to pursue weaponry? So, that they can kill Jews or Saudis or American troops or Egyptians, etc? Most countries in the ME are petrified of Iran getting nuclear weapons. Many countries have already stated that a nuclear Iran will cause an arms race in the ME.



Oh Really LeftOUT !

As soon as you cite your source , regarding the fall of the Soviet Union,Big Mouth.



LeftUSA - I
"I'm familiar with the phrase "cheese eating surrender monkeys". You stole that from the Simpsons."

I did not steal the phrase from anyone. I stated that it was an American description of the French. I do not watch The Simpsons.

"What I'm wondering is, what sort of "postion" would the French take? It's a simple question: what would you do?"

The French are standing with the protestors and so do I.

"They're killing protesters. Right. I saw that on the TV. So what would you do? Send in troops?"

Go to the UN Security Council and instituite a naval embargo.

"No diplomat has voiced that opinion. Not one."

How do you know? You asked me what the French have done because you did not know.

"Thank GOD McCain isn't president right about now."

At least, the Telegraph in London would not have called McCain a coward.

LeftUSA - II
"Oh, yeah, at this point I'm compelled to remind you that 9/11 happened on Bush's watch. No denying that, that's for sure."

Sure it did and, as the 09.11.01 Commission determined, the majority of the plannin occurred on Clinton's watch.

"And OBL is still out there, living life, doing as he pleases. Almost EIGHT YEARS LATER."

I said that I would have carpetbombed Tora Bora until it was flattened.

"At any rate, while I'm sure you'll disagree, the fact of the matter is that Obama is president, the Neocons had their shot, they screwed everything up, from war to the economy, and now they're gone."

The term "neo-con" is used to describe Jewish Republicans, who used to be Democrats. They split from the Democratic Party because of Carter's handling of foreign policy. They have had nothing to do with the economy.

"Won't be back anytime soon, either."

According to the Gallup Poll released yesterday, 40% of Americans considered themselves to be Conservatives, up 2 points since the election. 35% are Moderates/Independents, down 2 points since the election. And, 21% of Americans label themselves as Liberals, down 1 point since the election.

The Republican lead the Democrats on 5 of the 6 top issues as identified by Americans. The only one that Democrat leads on is Social Security. The majority of Americans disapprove of Obama's handling of the economy and his spending. Their #1 concern is the economy/govt. spending.

St Denis part 1
Thanks for the laughs.

Yeah, I knew you'd blame 9/11 on Clinton. Guffaw. Happened on Bush's watch. Bush ignored the warnings. Then he USED it to the fullest extent of his abilities.

Iran has a right to pursue nuclear power. It is not the US's place to dictate to them. Like it or not. We are not the boss of the world

The US standing with the protesters will UNDERMINE them. France can afford to stand with them. I'm glad they're doing that. You don't hear a lot of people chanting "Death to France" in Iran, because their president for the last eight years hasn't been a buffoon who injects his country into the affairs of others. France, due to their reputation as thoughtful diplomats, is in a position to support the protesters. We are not.





St. Denis part 2
If you still think that this is a center-right country, good for you. You're deluded. I've got a poll for you; it was taken in November 2008. Obama's approval ratings approach 70%. The country loves him, so does the world, and rightly so. Of course, you've got Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck. Good luck with that. Democrats hold a large majority in both houses of Congress, and the White House. And you're making the case that the country is conservative? Uhhh, yeah. Sure. OK.

You already mentioned that you would have carpet bombed Afghanistan, and killed innocents, to capture bin Laden. Nice police work, there. Clinton caught Ramsef and Rhaman, by use of FBI informants planted within the organization PRIOR to the bombings, as well as by good old fashioned police work (finding the VIN of the rented van in the rubble). Then he tried them, and jailed them. Case closed. You, on the other hand, would start a war over a criminal act. Bush, Jr. It's worked great so far, hasn't it? How many American soldiers has Bush gotten killed so far? 4000 or so? More? How many innocent Iraqis? Oh, and how many Iraqis were involved in 9/11 again?

Lastly, whether or not you watch the Simpsons, that's where the joke came from. You ought to know your sources if you're going to quote them.

Screaming the same old thing
We just need to ask WWSED? (What would Sen. Ensign do?) Can you believe it? Doing the wife of a guy that works for you. A true moral giant. I was over on that thread and there is nothing but liberals. When are Denis, Uspat, Retgeek going to weight in on that? With something other than the liberals are worse? Could they leave the party affiliation out of the discussion and focus on the act? NFW!

I know it kills the conservatives that Pat is a moderate conservative but who cares? I figured the gang would complain President Obama was doing the same thing as Pres. Regan. I know y’all love to say Pres. Obama is a Muslim but you never say what type. There are at least 2, not counting sub-divisions. Even Ronald, who is very well qualified to judge (qualified by himself), has never said. Remember, repeating something over and over doesn’t make it true. Even if Ronald says it.

Buchanan Jumps The Shark
Obama hates America as much as the mullahs do. Obama identifies with them, he's an anti-Semite, and he just won big in Iran with his friend Ahmedinijad emboldened to annihilate Israel. It's no surprise he is silently enjoying the results of the election, he obviously envies their vote fraud operation and will probably ask for tips so he can tweak ACORN for 2010.

Tim from Texas

I weighed in on Sen. Ensign moments after the story broke. It was not very flattering.

I just did not do it on this thread.

LeftUSA - Police Work?

Yeah, we caught the 1993 bombers through police work because THEY WERE IN THE UNITED STATES. They were tried in Federal court because they were apprehended here, Mirandized, given counsel immediately, were able to conduct discovery, and were able to cross-examine their accusers.

You cannot use police work in a war zone. It does not work. Who is going to be the police men? Are you going to give Constitutional rights to people that you pick up in the middle of a battlefield? Huh? Huh?

Constitutional rights are only extended to American citizens and foreigners caught inside of the United States. Your birth here and your responsibility to pay taxes have earned you Constitutional rights. Now, you want to give them to a foreigner from one country caught in another foreign country after killing our troops.

Man, if you want to go down that rode, I will put down my briefcase and go join the Lawyer Brigade so that I can step in and prevent my "client" from speaking one word to investigators.

If you are not prepared to win when fighting a war, then surrender now. You might be able to save some terrorists, but they will be free to come here and saw off your head with a dull knife.

traitorbill
We should be doing
everything we can to undermine the regime covertly. Of course, knowing Obama, we're not.

-----

We did that already when we orchestrated a coup against the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran in 1953 because he wanted to nationalize their oil resources so his country could benefit from its profits.

They ended up with the Shah who was as brutal and insecure as Saddam. Who forced Anglonization on the people of the country against the own historical Islamic roots.
They never forgot that.. That's why they have been so upset with us since.

We should just leave them alone this time and let the people themselves fight for and win their own self determination. After all that's how we won our own revolution, isn't it.

And if there are 'covert' actions going on then Obama will not be as stupid as Bush to announce it like he(bush) did when stating that he was funding NGOs within Iran to help with regime change.


Denise @ 2009/06/16 10:22
Eh, I thought the Kuwait-born Baluch Ramzi Yousef was actually apprehended in Pakistan.

(or were you being sarky?)

Sky Pete scribbled "We did that already when we orchestrated a coup against the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran in 1953 because he wanted to nationalize their oil resources so his country could benefit from its profits."

Notes:
(*) Mossadegh was NOT democratically elected, anymore than Z.A. Bhutto was of Pakistan (Bhutto usurped power on 1971/12/17 from dictator Yahya Khan, he had actually LOST 1970 election to Mujib) leader, having USURPED power from the Shah
(*) Mossadegh actually was not even popular in Iran by that time (but Khomeini, who was glad at his downfall, was able to use him as martyr)--though the Shah wasn't exactly popular either (which was how Mossadegh had managed to usurp in the first place)

As far as leaving them alone--that brings two possibilities:
(*) ruling council (headed by Khamenei) deepening hold (as Saddam did after 1991)
(*) people overpowering the mullahcracy (I've heard many Banglas state that even if Pakistan had NOT decided to provoke India to official war, Mukti Bahini would have defeated West Pakistan--and there is evidence to suggest this as true)

St Denis (again)
If a crook robs a bank and then crosses the border into Mexico, what do you do? Carpet bomb them? Guffaw.

Yes. POLICE WORK. Repeat after me:

9/11 was not an act of war. It was a heinous crime, commited by an organized crime group and carried out by 19 criminals. The difference between an act of war and a crime is not a matter of the size of the crime. It is a function of who carries it out.

Treating the crime of 9/11 as an act of war, was a deliberate use of deception by W and his criminal White House.

Bin Laden could have, and should have, been captured, using intelligence, special forces where necessary, to assist in what was a POLICE matter.

And yes, absolutely, when he's caught, he should be afforded Constitutional protections inasmuch as they apply to all humans. The Constitution clearly makes the case the ALL men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights. He should be tried; the evidence is there. He's on video talking about planning and committing the crime.

Why would we be afraid to do this? Unless....W imprisoned people in Guantanamo without reason?


Patriot..Left USA...Charles
Patriot-why would scummy LBJ want one of our
own ships sunk?
Left USA- so you left the USA? You probably
didn't break too many hearts here!? Where do you live? Next door to Fidel? Or Chavez?
Charles- sooo you remember that ship sinking?
That was a real eye opener? We really don't have a lot of friends.
Pat didn't mention that the guy w/the guns stay in power a long time! Russia went to it's knees...financially! Everybody get that!?
Therein lies the key...not that bozo in the
Whitehouse! He's too busy kissing camals !!!
Elvis

Channeling Hannan
Weakness at home leads to weakness abroad...



"You cannot spend your way out of a recession or borrow your way out of debt. And when you repeat, in that wooden and perfunctory way, that our situation is better than others, that we are well placed to weather the storm, I have to tell you, you sound like a Brezhnev era apparatchik giving the party line. You know and we know and you know that we know that it's nonsense. Everyone knows that we are possibly worse off than at any other moment in our history as we go into these hard times. The world has said so. Our people have said so. The Chinese have said so as we monetize our money or, as Mr. Geithner would say, we use quantitative easing, which all others except you recognize to be monetization. The Germans, the French, the Russians, and Pravda have all but said so. The value of our dollar says so, which is why it is falling like a rock. In a 18 months, the voters will have their chance to say so, too. They can see what the fundamentals say and what those not drinking the Kool-Aid have seen all along: that you are the devalued Leader of a devalued Government."

- Paraphasing Daniel Hannan, MEP

LeftUSA - Again! - I
"If a crook robs a bank and then crosses the border into Mexico, what do you do? Carpet bomb them? Guffaw."

It is called extradition.

"Yes. POLICE WORK."

The FBI is prohibited from apprehending ANYONE outside of the US. Only the CIA and the military have the authority to operate overseas.

"Repeat after me: 9/11 was not an act of war."

Not according to the 9/11 Commission.

"It was a heinous crime, commited by an organized crime group and carried out by 19 criminals."

True. Peut-être, we should have slapped a RICO action on AQ.

'The difference between an act of war and a crime is not a matter of the size of the crime. It is a function of who carries it out."

True, but foreigners due not have Constitutional rights, if they are apprehended outside of the US.

"Treating the crime of 9/11 as an act of war, was a deliberate use of deception by W and his criminal White House."

No, they declared war on us, but go ahead and treat them like US citizens. One day, you will reap what you sow.

LeftUSA, Again! - II
"Bin Laden could have, and should have, been captured, using intelligence, special forces where necessary, to assist in what was a POLICE matter."

OK, instead of our military, I will volunteer to send the NOPD over to Afghanistan. In fact, my mayor, Ray Nagin, can go, too. Good riddance!

"And yes, absolutely, when he's caught, he should be afforded Constitutional protections inasmuch as they apply to all humans."

He is not afforded Constitutional protections unless he is an American citizen or caught on US soil.

"The Constitution clearly makes the case the ALL men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights."

For Americans. Do you want Amanda Knox to have our Costitutional rights or be tried under Italian law?

"He should be tried; the evidence is there. He's on video talking about planning and committing the crime."

Not in Federal Court. The docket is already full. If anything, he should be tried in a Military Tribunal under the US Code of Military Justice.

"Why would we be afraid to do this?"

Because we have earned Constitutional rights. He was not Mirandized upon detention. He was not given counsel immediately. He will have access to classified information in discovery. And, he will have 6th Amendment rights to call and cross-examine everyone.

"Unless....W imprisoned people in Guantanamo without reason?"

Hell, Woodrow Wilson incarcerated ~150,000 Americans for dissent, antiwar protests, producing a film that depicted the British soldiers during the Revolutionary War (they got 10 year sentences), and tortured suffragettes and homosexuals because they were defective so they needed "fixing" at Mental Asylums.

Go ahead and rebuild "The Wall" constructed in the Clinton Ad. As for me, I take Reagan's approach... "Tear down this wall".

Harm will befall us for such foolishness.
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