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Wednesday, December 10, 2008
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Costs of an Offensive Analogy
by Michael Medved
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Why did 70% of California African-Americans vote against gay marriage on November 4th?

While a narrow majority of white voters opposed Proposition 8 (which defined marriage as "valid and recognized" only between a man and a woman), and a small majority of Latinos supported it, the black community overwhelmingly said "no" to the top "civil rights" priority of gay activists.

Liberals explain this surprising result with insulting (and occasionally racist) claims that black voters didn't understand the real nature of the fight, and suggestions that they were misled by TV advertisements or their impassioned pastors.

Conservatives, on the other hand, hail the tally as a sign of powerful, sturdy black support for traditional marriage --- an odd conclusion for a community with disproportionately high rates of out-of-wedlock birth and single parent households.

In fact, my conversations with several leaders and thinkers in the African-American community lead to another explanation for the one-sided rejection by black voters of the homosexual agenda.

At least in part, the support for Proposition 8 reflected deep resentment for the gay community's appropriation of the rhetoric and symbolism of the black civil rights struggle, along with understandable anger at the offensive analogy between African-American identity and gay sexual orientation.

For three reasons, the comparison of the gay struggle with the black struggle insults the memory of black heroes of the past and trivializes the problems of the African-American community of the present.

1. The expression of gay identity is a matter of choice, while only individuals with complicated mixed backgrounds (like Tiger Woods) get any element of choice in determining their racial identity. Even if you accept the politically correct argument that homosexuality is no more controllable or correctable than left-handedness, an individual still chooses how he wants to act on his inclinations, or the extent to which he wants to identify with a movement based on sexual orientation. My finest teacher in high school (a brilliant, challenging, completely dedicated English instructor and an inspiration to his students) was, I now suspect, gay. Of course, no one in the 1960's ever knew or ever asked (and I still don't know anything about his personal life with any certainty). In other words, Mr. S---- never experienced discrimination or hostility of any sort because he never chose to discuss or reveal his sexual identity. The black teachers in our school (or in any school) obviously enjoyed no such luxury ---everyone knew within moments of meeting them that they were African-American, and reacted accordingly, for better or worse. No one would argue that homophobia doesn't exist, or deny that many innocent people suffer from external reactions to their actual or perceived homosexuality. But a comparison of the inconvenience and unpleasantness of hostile reactions to gay identity (which homosexuals can avoid in many if not most facets of their lives), and the omnipresent, crippling ravages of racism in America's past (and, alas, present) is dishonest and appalling.

2. The best evidence that racism plays a far more destructive role in our national life than homophobia involves the relative success of members of the gay community, especially when compared to the continued economic struggles of African-Americans. Despite spectacular and altogether admirable progress in the last generation, black people remain handicapped by their history and identity, trailing their white counterparts in income, accumulated wealth, education, and other familiar measures of success. Gay people, on the other hand, according to figures from "The Advocate" and elsewhere, exceed the national average in education, income and professional success. Comparing the gay struggle to the black struggle is ridiculous on the face of it, due to the fact that gay people already enjoy at least the same standard of living and opportunity as their straight fellow-citizens, while African-Americans continue to lag behind whites (and Asians, for that matter). When gay activists insist that they only seek their "basic human rights," the claim sounds like self-pity and whining for a community that's already privileged in educational and economic terms.

3. An interracial marriage isn't profoundly or fundamentally different from a single race marriage, but a same sex couple is irreducibly distinct from any mixed sex union. Comparing a right to gay marriage with the right to interracial marriage therefore highlights the distinction between a racial influence on identity (which is relatively minor) and a gender influence on identity (which is huge and unavoidable). The Supreme Court in Loving v. Virginia (1967) found that a marriage between a white man and a black woman differed in no substantive way from a marriage between two whites or a marriage between two blacks: the identity of the spouse you chose didn't change the essential nature of the union you entered. This argument of course bears no application to the case for same sex relationships. There, the choice of a partner of the same sex (as opposed to a partner of opposite sex) fundamentally and profoundly alters the terms of the union – for instance (and most obviously) eliminating the chance that the two partners will produce a child together. It's important to understand that the essence of this difference between male-female and single sex couples is based on gender, not sexual orientation. For instance, most sane and objective observers would concede that it's important for a child (particularly in its early years) to benefit from the care of a mother. There's very good reason, then to give preference in adopting an infant to a male-female couple, or even a female-female couple, above a male-male couple. The key distinction involves gender, (which is profoundly important) rather than race or sexual orientation (which are far less significant). That's why legal distinctions based on gender (women don't register for the draft, and they get obvious preferential treatment in custody cases in divorce court) persists where discrimination based on race, national origin or even sexual orientation would look far more questionable.

In short, the analogy between the gay struggle and the black struggle for equal rights, as well as the comparison between a right of inter-racial marriage and a right of same sex marriage (precisely the comparison on which the California Supreme Court based its now infamous – and overturned- prior decision) make no sense and win no arguments.

Those analogies also no doubt contribute to the overwhelming rejection of the radical gay agenda by members of the African-American community. The invidious comparisons should produce the same indignant and outraged reaction from all Americans of good will, regardless of race.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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Wix
so, did you choose to be straight before or after you had sex with a person of the same sex?

what African Americans or Mormons think
is irrelevant. The California Supreme Court will be overruling Prop 8.

reply to K'ssandra
Clearly, you're either not a conservative or your're a conservative who doesn't understand her own ideology. Conservatism requires precisely the sort of self-concealment you write about. Conservatism requires conformity--whether genuine or feigned--to the standards of Biblical religion, regardless of the cost to individual well-being that might result. You're exactly right: the conservative demand is that the gay person harm him or herself to make conservatives more comfortable. That's why we should not expect conservatives to be in the forefront of any movement for tolerance. On gays, conservatives are very predictable and never fail to disappoint.

How condescending
I can understand how African Americans could be bothered by the civil rights parallels. And I have always understood people who are offended by the extreme behavoir of some homosexual people.

However, the argument of "just lie and we'll leave you alone" is as ignorant and insulting as anything I have ever heard. Do any of you even understand what it takes to "pass"? It means never being honest with anyone you work with, or go to church with, or live next door to. It means never trusting anyone and living in constant fear of being outed. It means hiding the one relationship in your life that supports and inspires you more than any other when everyone around you can speak of their significant others and families with impunity. The self-loathing, shame, and depression that comes from living in the closet cannot be described to someone who hasn't been there.

It is the ultimate in condescention to expect me to hurt myself like that just to make you more comfortable. The author here is a Jew, you'd think that the history of how the religious minority he belongs has been treated would teach him a few things. After all, a Jew can "pass" too, if he simply confines the practice of his religion behind closed doors and drawn shutters.

Response to Jim:
You know, I think you're on to something here. Prop 8 says, "Only Marriage between one man and one woman is valid in California."

So let's just use the word 'Matrimony' instead of 'Marriage'.

The homosexuals in California can petitition the State to start issuing 'Matrimony' licenses to everyone, including same sex couples, in place of 'Marriage' licenses. That way they could have gay unions and there would be no violation of the new constitutional amendment because it only defines 'marriage' not 'matrimony'.

Some would say that both words mean the same thing, but the fact is that that the new law defines is just 'marriage', it does not say 'marriage AND matrimony are one man and one woman'.

I think I will recommend that course of action to the California gay activists. Thanks Jim.

The cluelessness of the homophobic..
..agenda reflected in this thread is illuminated most glaringly by this quote from Michael Medved:

"Mr. S---- (his much admired English Teacher) never experienced discrimination or hostility of any sort because he never chose to discuss or reveal his sexual identity. Of course, no one in the 1960's ever knew or ever asked (and I still don't know anything about his personal life with any certainty)."

In other words, It's Ok to be gay as long as you stay in the closet and don't confront 'normal' people with your disgusting behavior.

The fact is that in the 1960's openly gay men were not allowed to be employed as teachers in a lot of states, and California narrowly avoided passage of a Proposition 8 type initiative in 1978 that would have outlawed gay teachers, just as Arkansas just outlawed gay adoptions.

I have no doubt that blacks are as homophobic as anyone else, and are therefore 'offended' by comparisons between the struggles for black civil rights gay civil rights, but that does not invalidate the comparison.

Medved goes on to say, "Despite spectacular and altogether admirable progress in the last generation, black people remain handicapped by their history and identity." I would like to hear him explain why that same statement does not apply equally to gays?

Response to auroawatcher:
Would you be surprised to learn that there is no gene or gene sequence that causes femaleness or maleness?

It is, in fact, chromosomes that determine gender, not genes. So why do you rule out the possibility that sexual orientation is a bilogical imperative determined by factors other than genetics?

There are pleny of theories about what those biological factors are, or might me, but suffice it to say that whether or not homosexuality is genetic (most likely it is not), does not mean that it it is 'something you choose'.

Just an Opinion
I think it's normal for developing children to go through a period somewhere between 10 and 14 depending on the individual when their sexuality is somewhat maleable. If they are in a situation where they are given some impetus some small percentage can drift into a perversion of their natural instincts. Once they have confirmed this by behavior they may imagine that this inclination was always part of their idenity. To some degree people justify in their own minds what they do and if they feel a measure of subliminal guilt they can become hostile toward those who find their inclinations with disgust wheter or not they are discriminated against.

Michael
When the Human Genome Project finds a gene or gene sequence that causes homosexuality, you'll have a legitimate scientific argument for it not being something you choose. What you are describing so far are physical anomolies for which we should medical treatment.

Make of this what you will
I belong to a fake Christian church. I mean, it's one of those mainline denominations so you guys know it's not really Christian. Well, a couple of sundays ago we had a 'new members' Sunday' in which new members of our church joined it officially. In the church bulletin were the names of two women, printed just as the names of other couples were printed. The two women were introduced to the congregation by the pastor, just the way he introduced the straight married couples. No one objected, no one walked out. That's how I know I'm in a fake Christian church. In a real Christian church, there would have been quite a scene, maybe even some gunfire.

After the service, old members introduced themselves to our new members during a coffee hour. Guesss who walked up to the two women and introduced themselves first? Yep, the retired captain of a Navy boomer (missile sub) and his wife. I guess this guy missed the anti-gay indoctrination at Annapolis. And they invited the lesbian couple to come to hte next meeting of the church couples group, to which my wife and I belong. Clearly a fake Christian church.

Now I know. Real Christians are about exclusion, hate, fear, loathing, and scriptural authority. Fake Christians are about God's love, salvation, and goodwill. I'll stick with the fake Christians.

well...
I will never understand why ANYONE would choose to not only primarily identify themselves with their bedroom habits, but want them public anyway. Bedroom happenings are really not anyone's business in the first place, which is why those sodomy laws were rarely enforced. I do not wander around throwing MY bedroom habits in people's faces, so I expect the same from others.

David- more total falsehoods
The most persecuted people on the face of the earth are Christians. Behind themm come the Jews, and the recent holocaust against them.

Ernst Rohm was credited with placing Hitler in power, by Hitler himself. Ernst Rohm was a homosexual, and so were all of the top SA leaders.

Pointing to Muslims killing homosexuals is not new. They consider homosexuals nothing more than human decadence. You should note that Muslims have killed tens of thousands of Christian heterosexuals for every one(1) homosexual. And that figure is conservative.

Most kids are picked on and bulllied by others for a myriad of reasons. I had glasses. Was that a hate crime?

Homosexuality is a behavior, a proven loser in the writings of history, and the attempt to link it to the color of skin as a civil rights movement is failing miserably.

The civil rights arguement has even been abandoned by many homosexual activists as not believeable.

tombo777
In addition to forgetting about the predominantly black churches, they also forgot about the Asian, Buddhist, Hindu, places, and of course the Muslim mosques.

The whole pack of them are cowards. The "in" crowd bashes Christians with their bigoty without conseuences, so, they take the same route, and use the easiest strawmen they can find.

Did the anti-8s miss something
When they attacked Mormon churches and protested outside Saddleback? Did they forget to protest outside black churches, or was something else like PC, in the wind?

NOT DESIGNED FOR IT
Manuel wrote:

"Tell me who scientist affirms that sex among sodomites is normal and their bodies are made to have sex among same sex?"

Exactly. Here's the medical position clearly stated in terms even a sodomite cannot refute:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0 075.html

"Anal intercourse is the sine qua non of sex for many gay men. Yet human physiology makes it clear that the body was not designed to accommodate this activity.

"The rectum is significantly different from the vagina with regard to suitability for penetration by a pe nis.

"The vagina has natural lubricants and is supported by a network of muscles. It is composed of a mucus membrane with a multi-layer stratified squamous epithelium that allows it to endure friction without damage and to resist the immunological actions caused by semen and sperm.

"In comparison, the anus is a delicate mechanism of small muscles that comprise an "exit-only" passage. With repeated trauma, friction and stretching, the sphincter loses its tone and its ability to maintain a tight seal. Consequently, anal intercourse leads to leakage of fecal material that can easily become chronic.

"The potential for injury is exacerbated by the fact that the intestine has only a single layer of cells separating it from highly vascular tissue, that is, blood. Therefore, any organisms that are introduced into the rectum have a much easier time establishing a foothold for infection than they would in a vagina. The single layer tissue cannot withstand the friction associated with penile penetration, resulting in traumas that expose both participants to blood, organisms in feces, and a mixing of bodily fluids."


My Goofy to say the same thing

Isaiah Location: VA
Reply # 94
Date: Dec 10, 2008 - 4:08 PM EST
Subject: jim
"Is the best you can do, is the horse and cow, WOW? I thought you were comparing homosexuals having sex, to a cow trying to have sex with a horse."

Sharing labels, mixing definitions and whatever else doensn't change that fact.
======

That was exactly what I was trying to say, without really saying it.

stedes #104
Gays do not want equality. They already have that and aren't satisfied. Marriage laws do not inquire into sexual orientation. They treat all the same regardless of orientation. Gays don't want to marry though. If they don't want to marry fine, no one is telling them to.

Manuel
Manuel, the "ex-gay" thing is a myth. There are also many ex-ex-gays.

They may change their behavior but they don't change their feelings and attractions.

They are still attracted to men and they never chose it.

Even the head of Exodus Internationl, Alan Chambers, says that he did not choose to have homosexual attractions and while he is Christian and now married to a women, he still has homosexual attractions.

He says he has to deny his nature every day of his life and admits there is no real "cure" for homosexuality as the homosexuality itself never really goes away.

Studies show that most "ex-gays" hate having sex with their wives and look at gay porn or cheat on their wives with other men.

Also all ex-gays are religious fanatics and thats why they pretend to be straight. They have been brainwashed and abused by their religious upbringing to think that they have to act straight or go to Hell.

Heck the man that started Exodus International says its a sham and has gone back to identifying as gay.

David: Anus' worshipper (2)
Tells me how the so-called “scientists” can explain that homosexuals are “born” when nature has not provided for them another way to prevent those diseases? Everybody knows that anatomically there is not way for homosexuals to have normal sexual intercourse. Tell me who scientist affirms that sex among sodomites is normal and their bodies are made to have sex among same sex?

To say “there is not science that supports the notion that pray away the gay” is misleading, inaccurate and false. Let’s start with the beginning. It is misleading because there is not teaching in the bible that by praying homosexuals will disappear. The bible teaches that God can change a person into a new creature. It means that homosexuals can change their life style by accepting Christ. This answer your sarcastic question, Yes the bible tells me so.
It is also inaccurate because Christianity does not rely in so called science to support the fact that homosexuals can change. It is the other way; science can verify the fact that homosexuals have changed. It is false because science cannot deal with spiritual issues.

And finally, if the scientist is biased toward sodomites, then you cannot expect him to agree with the fact that homosexuals can change.

David: Anus' wrorshipper (1)
Sodomites like David # 67 commit the fallacy of the authority. However, what he fails to grasp intellectually is that those “peer reviewed” “conclusive” and unambigious is the FACT that there exists thousands of former sodomites, men and women, who now live a natural, normal, positive, and productive life. That homosexuality is not mutable? This claim is irrelevant because the mere existence of former homosexuals debunks that claim.

So called scientist must come with a explanation on why homosexuals leave that destructive life style and became normal individuals. If homosexualism is genetically ingrained in our system, then why they changed?

And talking about opinions? There is not need to give my opinion when the facts are in front of your eyes. I know personally former homosexuals who now are helping other homosexuals to leave that vicious life. Do I ask the opinion of a “scientist” to tell me that my friends are still homosexuals? Of course not. The fact that they change their lives is strong evidence against the false conclusion that homosexuals are “born” that way.

The fact that homosexuality is against nature is easy to prove. The life of the homosexuals centers in the anus. And the consequences are really tragic and disgusting. According to the Annals of Clinical Laboratory Science, “Gay bowel syndrome” is a clinical pattern of anorectal and colon diseases, which occur with unusual frequency in homosexual patients. The diagnoses include condyloma acuminata, hemorrhoids, proctitis, anal fistula, anal fissure, amebiasis, polyps, hepatitis, syphilis, rectal ulcers, shigellosis (sexually transmitted disease with direct oral anal contact), and lymphogranuloma venereum (sexually transmitted disease). These diseases are really nasty and abominable.

(will continue)

Isaiah
"What gay marriage advocates want is for the government to get involved in that relationship. To treat it in a special way. To force other citizens to recognize it and respond in particular ways toward it".

I think you miss the point here. Gays do not want special traetment, just equality. Legal recognition for marriage grants them tax benefits and other legal rights that traditional marriage has today. It is social and legal recognition. They are asking for equal rights.

The only arguments I have heard against gay marriage in this post is either religious scripture or personal disgust.

These are not valid reasons to deny people their "pursuit of Happiness"

inconvenience?
Since when is persectution, prejudice, and hate crimes mere inconvenience and unpleasantness??

During the Inquisition some homosexuals were burned at the stake.

During colonial America, gay men were castrated and lesbian women had part of their noses removed as punishment for being homosexual.

During the Holocaust- 50,000 homosexuals were rounded up and at least 10,000 were slaughtered.

There was a time in American where homosexuality was considered a mental disorder (many gays were forcefully institutionalized and abused with lobotomies or electro-shock therapy), gay sex was illegal, and in 1986 the Supreme Court ruled that gays did not have a right to privacy. Police could go into gays homes and if they were in bed with their lovers they could arrest them for sodomy.

As recent as the 70s-- gay teachers could be fired just for being gay.

Even Lou Dobbs admits that most hate crimes are committed against gays and lesbians.

What about Lawrence King, a gay 8th grader that was shot in the head twice and killed by a classmate just because he was gay?

Gay kids are bullied, attacked, and ridiculed all the time in our public schools and the teachers allow it.

Many Islamic countries in the Middle East and Africa make being gay a criminal act and even exectute them.

You can use google images and see pictures of gay teenage boys hanging dead from nooses in Iran because they execute them.

In Nigeria, it is not only against the law to be gay but it is even against the law to advocate for gay rights.

So don't lie and say that gays don't have a history of being persecuted or that theirs is not a civil rights movement.


biological
Anyways, articles about several studies....

Homosexuality and the hypothalamus..

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n9_v140/ai_1 1315232

Homosexuality and the amygdala...

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains- structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html?feedId=onlin e-news_rss20

Homosexuality and the commissure...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=4 9673

Again, homosexual sheep have the same differences in hypothalamus that homosexual humans have...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3008-homosexuality-is -biological-suggests-gay-sheep-study.html

Homosexuality and Twins....

http://www.tim-taylor.com/papers/twin_studies/studies.html

Homosexuality and X-Chromosome...

http://general-medicine.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/1993/80 6/1

Homosexuality and Birth Order...

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20060626/birth- order-may-affect-homosexuality

Homosexuality and the Animal Kingdom...

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20718

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

Homosexuality, fruit flies, genetics, and brain hormones….

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071210094541.h tm

Bigotry Issue
I asked two African-American couples at our church how they felt about this and they said it was insulting that rich white people with a choice to pick their fights actually want to whine that somebody is treating them badly for the choices they make. Both couples are descended from slaves and the older man remembers segregated facilities in the South. There is no comparison, they say. If gay people would just go home and keep their sexual activities private, nobody would know or care and they wouldn't need to fight. "This is a fight they're demanding to have simply so they can whine about how they've been mistreated," Mary, the younger of the two woman, said. "Why should we honor that anymore than we honor the whining of a drug-dealing gang-banger who thinks he's being racially discriminated against when he's arrested for shooting someone in front of 20 witnesses?"

Allen
"In the case I referenced, the guy killed was a straight guy who had been drinking and was walking down the street arm in arm with his brother"

That brings up an interesting case. If there are hate crime laws should the guy who killed this person be tried using them because he "thought " they were gay or should he not be tried using hate crime law because the guy turned out to not be gay. That is my problem with so called hate crime laws. Also does the dead guys mom , dad or family morn less becuase he was straight.

Moral Issue
The Bible unequivocably calls homosexuality a sin. Refer to Romans Chapter 1. This was written after Peter's vision of the sheet coming down from heaven that said it was okay to eat shell-fish, btw. Many of the Levitical bans were put in place to set the Israelites apart from the surrounding tribes. It turns out that eating poorly cooked pork and shellfish does often resulted in illness and death, which might also explain why God didn't allow the Israelites to eat either. However, the ban on such foods was lifted soon after Christ's death when Peter was shown all the "unclean" animals and told to "kill and eat". However, nowhere is the New Testament will you find God lifting the ban on homosexual behavior. Trying to explain it away just betrays Biblical ignorance.

I have a couple of coworkers who are lesbians. I consider one a friend. I treat both as fellow human beings deserving respect and God's love and salvation, but I also don't lie to them and say that God doesn't mind their lifestyle choice and that they can continue to live that way and have Him be pleased with them. Lying to one's friends isn't a very loving thing to do and I'm not going to do it.

Legal issue
There are mechanisms in place currently that allow common-law spouses to transfer property to one another and allow visitation in hospitals. Maybe it's not quite as simple as a marriage ceremony, but mixed-gender couples who decide not to marry make use of those legal mechanisms all the time. There is no need for homosexuals to co-opt marriage (which has been defined as one-man-one-woman for millennia) in order to gain these legal benefits.

And, before anyone says I don't know what I'm talking about -- my parents were a common-law couple who raised a child together in the 1960s and managed to share custody of me, buy houses together and be involved in each other's medical issues. The only complication I ever heard about was when my mom applied for Social Security and forgot that her legal last name was not my Dad's (in those days, ID was a little less strict than it is now) and she had to reapply under her legal last name. But, if they could do it 40-50 years, Ellen DeGeneres can do it now.

We Can Lead Them To Water But...
My son attended an inner city high school in Baton Rouge. When it came time for the parent oreintation visits to the schools,very few African-American parents went, although their kids were in the majority. The opportunities are there for them but just because you offer someone something doesn't mean that they will take advantage of it, but also doesn't mean that they won't hesitate to complain about discrimination once they are beyond school age.
Iguess that discrimination against the poorly educated or the unmotivated will continue as long as employers have a choice. Maybe, President Obama will fix this situation so that employers will have to hire the unmotivated, poorly educated, rather than the best educated and motivated.

Missing Medved's Point
If a black person isn't convinced by the analogy and in fact is angered by the analogy, does it make sense to use the analogy to win his support to your cause. Even if the analogy is perfect (and it isnt') attempting to use it in that situation is counterproductive.

If someone tries to convince a court that x should be done because the Bible says so, and the court responds that it doesn't care what the Bible says, does it make sense to keep arguing from the Bible? Perhaps some arguments which the court is willing to entertain is the best way to go. Even if the Bible is 100% correct on the issue, it does no good to argue the Bible to a court that places no weight on Biblical teaching.

When you are attempting to persuade people, you do it with the argument they are willing to hear and be convinced by. If they aren't convinced by your argument, the argument should be set aside in favor of a more effective one even when the argument is without substantive flaw.

First, the genetic issue
As far as I have heard, the Humane Genome Project has not found a "gay" gene. When they do, the argument that you have no choice in being gay will become arguable. Until that point, it's a choice and choices are something that come with consequences.

jim
"Is the best you can do, is the horse and cow, WOW? I thought you were comparing homosexuals having sex, to a cow trying to have sex with a horse."

I guess I didn't make it clear enough. You were taking the analogy a little too litterally. As in the examples you gave, I was trying to demonstrate that words have meaning which is important.

Cows and horses having sex wasn't the point. The point was that a cow is a cow and a horse is a horse. Sharing labels, mixing definitions and whatever else doensn't change that fact.

jim
I think we are saying the same thing, but you seem to have missed my point. The problem is that the meaning of marriage has been corrupted in recent times. My analogy was an attempt to illustrate that.

The cow is marriage. The horse is what the gays want. They are calling it marriage, but it isn't marriage. In the story, people called a horse a cow, but it wasn't a cow.

The gay marriage supporters are constantly pulling a bait and switch. They say that two distinct things are the same and then say that since there is a right to the first, there is also a right to the second.

If you have a right to a cow, you have a right to a cow. Calling a horse a cow doesn't give you a right to a horse.

stedes--God made me do it
From a Christian perspective whether or not a person is biolgically gay is irrelevant. All men have a sin nature. Not everyone is tempted in the same way, but all are tempted to sin. There is no exception for your favorite sin, or the one you have the greatest difficulty resisting. Sin is sin and no matter how strong the temptation it is wrong to succumb.

Most men have a strong desire to find a multitude of lovers, yet succumbing to that desire is wrong. That they are born with that desire is no excuse.

Some people are unable to find someone willing to marry them. They have a sexual desire, but can never satisfy that desire without sinning.

Others have strong desires to seek out children as their would be partners, yet to succumb to that desire is sinful and wrong. Even our secular society recognizes this.

It doesn't matter how much we ant to do a wrong thing. Desires do not make the wrong right. Christians believe that we are all tempted in many ways and that we should do all that we can to resist those temptations.

What is this about a cow and a horse?

Isaiah Location: VA
Reply # 76
Date: Dec 10, 2008 - 2:08 PM EST
Subject: David #65
Look up marriage in a dictionary from the time time.
=============

The dictionary says the following, so get your own words, and leave these alone.

Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife

Husband: a man joined in marriage to a woman

Wife: a woman joined in marriage to a man

If two men say they are married to each other, do they have a marriage? Answer No.

Two families pay money each month to live in a house, is it the same? No, one pays rent, the other pays a mortgage.

Two wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a bike, the other a motorcycle.

Two multi-wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a car, the other is a truck.

If a man and a woman are married to each other, do you have a marriage? Yes, of course.

=====


Is the best you can do, is the horse and cow, WOW? I thought you were comparing homosexuals having sex, to a cow trying to have sex with a horse.

Don't you understand? I don't care what people with a special birth defect do in their bedroom.




stedes
Gays are free to "marry". They can go to a church or some other organization, have a ceremony, say "I do" and all the rest. They can go through their lives referring to each other as my "husband" if they wish. The government isn't going to get involved and tell them to stop it.

What gay marriage advocates want is for the government to get involved in that relationship. To treat it in a special way. To force other citizens to recognize it and respond in particular ways toward it.

If conservatives are inconsistent about marriage it is because they haven't called for the abolition of government involvement in marriage altogether. That is the change that would lead to less government in our lives.

There are all sorts of complications that would arise if the government were to get out of marriage altogether many of them relating to reproduction which is the main reason the government has an interest in the issue in the first place. It is also a reason why gay "marriage" isn't really needed since gay relationships are internally sterile.

Hold all the hands you want

David Location: NY
Reply # 75
Date: Dec 10, 2008 - 2:06 PM EST
Jim
"I don't care what a couple or a bunch of homos do, just don't do it in public, and quit advertising it."

You said: Don't look. If you see my partner and me holding hands and you are offended, that is YOUR problem, not ours. Too bad.

===

And the fact that you say I was talking about holding hands, just proves the point that you are an idiot.

Plight continued
There is no rational reason that two good friends should be denied any rights given to gays. Redefining marriage to include gay unions presents a problem to a pair of friends like that above. The label marriage is not one that they likely wish to have attached to their relationship for it implies some sort of sexual dimension. This pair is then disserved by a redefinition of marriage while a marriage like legal relationship may give them that which they seek.

The benefit of such a legal relationship is that it takes the sexual relationship off the table. It depoliticizes the issues. Gays get the rights they seek with no thought put into their sexual orientation or relationship. There is no charged political reason to deny brothers or friends the ability to designate the other as their closest human relation.

Any two people arguably should be allowed to do this regardless of their relationship. Two people committed to helping each other through life and working together for common benefit could be given a set of rights, privleges and burdens associated with that commitment.

It defuses the issue.

I don't think that the rights are really the point for the gay activists though. They don't want rights, they want social approval. That is the whole point. The California court recognized that civil unions afforded all the rights of marriage. The problem was that the label didn't carry the same level of prestige. That appears to be the true goal--force society to believe that gay relationships are a worthwhile, acceptable and moral as straight ones.

stedes
I agree too many people here tend to spout hatred and venom while defending a Christian point of view. That damages and dilutes their message.

As far as gay marriage and getting the government out of our lives... That's the point. We don't want government endorsing more definitions of marriage. By allowing government to do so, we are letting it intrude more into areas it should not go.

Democracy is all about majority rules. Has been and will be. The idea is to protect the majority from the tyanny of the minority. Which by the way, is another reason to protect traditional marriage. The majority want it that way.

God doesn't make people gay. Being gay has nothing to do with biology but with behavior. God gave us free will so we could freely choose (or not) to worship him.

The Irrationality of Being anti-gay
First, in reading these posts I am appalled at the amount of anger, venom and hate from you folks while invoking Christianity.

Then the unreality of it, "OK you are biologically gay, just don't engage in gay activities" This is a contridiction and makes no rational sense. It is like like telling a straight person not to engage in heterosexual sex. Why would God make someone gay and then cast them a sinner for engaging in gay sex? Is this God's form of a cruel joke?

However, Enjoy your anti-gay majority becasue time is not on your side. Studies and polls continue to show that the younger you are the more you accept homosexuality as a norm. 70% of people under 30 support gay rights. In the next 20 years anti-gay folks will be a minority and you will see more gay rights and social acceptability.

Then there is the constitutionality of prop 8. Just becasue a majority is against gay rights, dose not mean the majority shall rule. Thomas Jefferson feared too much democracy where 51% of the population controls a 41% minority. Our Constitution is designed to "protect the minority from the tranny of the Majority".

Lastly - Where are all you small government conservatives who believe "Get the government out of our lives"? "The government shouldn't tell us what to do". How do you square this view with government telling gays hey cannot marry each other?

The Plight of Tom and Joe
Tom and Joe are two fictional men who can help illustrate the problem with creating gay marriage. Tom and Joe are not themselves gay. They have learned that if they work together, share bills, a house, things like that, they can make their paychecks go farther than if they lived separate lives. So they live together, often eat together, share responsibility for maintaining the house, vehicles and everything else.

They aren't particularly close to their families. If one were to get sick he would prefer the other rather than a family member care for him in the hospital. They each want their assets to go to their friend at death rather than to the family for whom they care little.

In short their life is little different from a heterosexual or homosexual couple. The only difference is that Tom and Joe do not have a sexual relationship. They love each other deeply, but it is not an erotic, rather it is a brotherly love.

Is it fair that Tom and Joe don't have access to the marriage bundle of rights? Don't they have as right to those rights? If the nation were to allow gay marriage, should they have to call their relationship a marriage in order to get those rights? Would they be denied a marriage if they sought one?

(continued below...)

Medved supports gays.
Biology or not, being gay and being black are not the same thing. Blacks know this and voted accordingly. They don't like their civil rights movement being dragged in the mud by gay rights groups.

It seems gays should be glad this data is in front of them now. It is doubtful they will ever convince blacks that gay rights should be included in the civil rights movement and so gay activists can now adjust their strategy to get their agenda pushed through. Their first task at hand should be to get off the civil rights train and get their own train moving on a seperate track. Gays should thank Medved for his support.

Why is Gay Marriage a "Right"
Is it necessary so that a gay person can have a life long relationship with the partner of his choosing? No. Gays can and do have such relationships despite the fact that the law does not provide for gay marriage.

Is it necessary to ensure that a gay person can provide for his partner economically? It could be argued yet, but why should two gay men have a right denied to two brothers. If there is a right to make economic provision for the person you love most why is a sexual relationship the prerequisite for that right. Any two people should have access to that right. Best friends, relatives, whoever. To grant marriage rights to any pair who is as deserving of protection as the gay couple is to destroy any semblance of meaning in the institution of marriage.

Is it necessary to ensure gays can visit each other in the hospital? No. Other legal options are available to ensure that protection. Perhaps this may involve more hassle than married couples face, but again why should gays be singled out for preferential treatment above friends with no sexual relationship, but who may desire the same benefit.

Is it necessary to ensure gays can adopt? No. Courts can easily require gays be allowed to adopt just as anyone else.

There is no purpose to be achieved by gay marriage which cannot be achieved in other ways.

David #65
Don't confuse your refusal to accept secular arguments against gay marriage with there being a lack of such arguments.

Second, it would seems that the ones advocating a change to the status quo and rejection of the near universal practice throughout human history of not recognizing same sex marriage would be the ones who should carry the burden of establishing a good reason for change, or the recognition of a right that has never existed.

That is to say why should society call a gay relationship a marriage. Is there any compelling reason to do so? I am aware of none.

David
"The published, peer reviewed science is clear, conclusive and unambiguous. Sexual orientation is no more a choice than eye color" - so if they can say their studies support the conclusion that homosexuality is not a choice, but is rather genetic, that has to mean also that, just by looking at genes, tell whether that person is a homosexual or not?

Regardless, the choice to engage in a homosexual encounter is always a choice. No one forces anyone have sex with another, or it is then called rape.

The Bible does not preach against homosexUALs, the Bible preaches against homosexualITY. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Sin is ALWAYS the choice of the one committing it.

David #75
If we see you holding hands and are offended, that is our problem not yours. How faithful are you to that reasoning.

Is it your problem not his if someone offends you with a sign that says "God hates gays". (To be clear, I am not saying he does, in fact he loves them)?

Is it your problem not his if someone walks aroud with a Tshirt graphically depicting a dismemberd aborted fetus?

Is it your problem not his if someone offends you by deficating in the middle of a public street?

Is all public behavior acceptable, and all objection to any public behavior without merit?

Is is not decent and neighborly to abstain from public behavior will offend a large segment of the population?

Mary
Blah Blah Blah. Who cares why they are homosexual. It is an aberrant lifestyle. The same garbage you were spuing can be argued by a petifile. The why is immaterial. I will concede that they do not CHOOSE to be gay.

Your disgusting argument that heterosexuals engage in sodomy (which use to be against the law in all 50 states until recently) is not the issue either. Heterosexuals may engage in sodomy, but sooner or later to procreate they do it the right way. Homosexuals have no other option which is why it is aberrant. This pathetic argument along with the argument that because some women are infertile and need science that homosexuals can do it to is repugnant. All homosexual sex is incapable of producing a child. ALL. .01% of all women in this country can not conseive the proper way, and to use these specious arguments are disgusting. You have no arguments that can stand on there own. First it was a civil rights fight, then it was "heterosexual couples" need invitro, and now it is that some heterosexuals engage in sodomy so what is the big deal.

The point is that it is not a "civil right" it is disgusting and cruel to use the pain that a woman feels when she cannont conceive a child as a right to raise a child in a homosexual home.

Marriage between races was

being practiced in other states at the time of Loving. Marriage by definition did not exclude multi-racial marriages.

Redefine marriage?
If it is to be redefined then should it refuse the right to three or more people? If they are in loving relationship and provide a loving home to children why is it any business of government?

Gays are being discriminatory for not redefining marriage its most broad sence.

David #65
Look up marriage in a dictionary from the time time. You will see that the definition is inclusive enough to include interracial marriage. The law which was struck down would have been pointlessly redundant if the definition of marriage only included unions of people of the same race. Because marriage (as defined at the time) included more than the people wanted, they had to pass laws restricting the availability of marriages.

An analogy may help make the point. Suppose there is a law which says that everyone has the right to own a cow. This is easy to understand, but suppose that some people thought that not everyone should be able to own any type of cow. They pass a law which says that people with last names from s-z can't own brown cows. This law retricts the availability of cows. Now not everyone can have a cow of their choice. Some can get any type of cow they want, others can only get certain types of cows.

Now the court comes along and decides, it isn't right to let some people pick any cow they want, while other people get to only pick brown cows. The court strikes down the law and now everyone can have any type of cow they want.

40 years later a group comes along and says, we don't want cows, we want horses. The problem is that the right is to own a cow, not to own a horse. These horse lovers have a right to own a cow just like everyone else, but they don't have a right to a horse. Not satisfied with the right to own a cow, they begin to call a horse a cow. If they can convince everyone that a horse is a cow, then they will have a right to a horse. Unfortunately the people don't buy the argument. They know that a horse and a cow are not the same thing and that calling them the same thing doesn't alter that fact.

The proper course of action would be to convince people that horses should be available to all, rather than calling a horse a cow.

Jim
"I don't care what a couple or a bunch of homos do, just don't do it in public, and quit advertising it."

Don't look. If you see my partner and me holding hands and you are offended, that is YOUR problem, not ours. Too bad.

What on earth would you do if you had a gay son or daughter? After all, while you need a license to catch a fish, any schmuck can impregnate a woman.

Mary FYI
One of the founders of NARTH (Charles Socarides) has an openly gay son who served in the Clinton administration. Prior to his death, Dr. Socarides was thoroughly discredited.

The article that you link to has NEVER been published in a peer reviewed scientific journal.

Genetics are not a required component of sexual orientation for it to be biological. Research is ongoing. Homosexuality is seen throughout nature. I'm still trying to figure out when and how those gay dolphins and penguins chose their lifestyle ;-)

Just do it in private, and shut up

I don't care what a couple or a bunch of homos do, just don't do it in public, and quit advertising it.

When I see some children in the neighbor's yard, I have a suspicion that may they had sex a few years ago.

But I don't know or care what they did last night.

Forty to fifty years ago I spent many nights in Frisco, on business. I soon learned what streets I could use for my nightly walk.

Before I learned that, I almost had to fight off the homos, but I loved "talking" to the ladies in other parts of the city. And all I did was "talk." Right.

But I would have been happier if they didn't advertise their sexual preference.

in favor of most all Discrimination

John Location: PA
Reply # 48
Date: Dec 10, 2008 - 11:58 AM EST


I am in favor of most all Discrimination. I agree that Discrimination because of color is maybe necessary, a little, but character trumps color.

I have talked to many people over the decades, and have found that when you get to the bottom line, no one really hates another person because of color, race, gender, creed, or anything like that. Those factors are the identifiers, and what you do next depends on your past experience with such a person, or what you just read in the paper, or heard on the news.

A month or so ago I said to a Black man, a Pharmacist (His name is Rudy, so I call him Rudy Huxtable), “Do you know what I would do if I saw three big black men coming towards me on a dark street?”

He said, “You would cross the street.” I said, “No, I would say, Good evening Michael Jordan, glad to meet you Magic Johnson, I loved your show Bill Cosby.” He cheered my comment, and roared with laughter.


Tweaky
"You're a rather sad case. Maybe if you found a nice girl and got married, your thinking and your life might improve."

Nothing to improve. I have been with my partner for almost 30 years and we both do quite well - thank you very much. Most of our straight friends have a divorce or two. Do you usually refer to women as "girl[s]?"

part two
For the last bit of your post, I have several other comments: "The solution is for all responsible citizens to condemn hatefulness, for criminals to be condemned for hate crimes unreservedlt (as you have done), and for people like Mr. Medved to maintain an intellectual, analytical discourse, not rely on emotional appeals encouraging people to be outraged and indignant against gay people"

A) condemning is one thing, and I think both sides of the philosophical fence DO condemn stupid actions such as the New York incident, etc... having Hate Crime laws, IMHO, is worthless, and only furthers racial divides, similar to Affirmative Action. For racism to TRULY be done away with, we need to do away with things like hate crimes, AA, special considerations, and the good ole' N-word, which I only do not type out here because it will result in my post getting flagged. Either it is OK for ALL to use it, or none... and Whoopi Goldberg and her ignorant self needs to realize that. (I refer to the headlines made by the discourse on "The View" a while back). I even believe terms like "African American" need to be done away with - I don't refer to myself as an "Irish-German American". We are either in this boat together, and all Americans, or we are not.

Finally, I did not get the same impression that Medved was "encouraging people to be outraged and indignant against gay people" - just pointing out that the usual arguments they use to justify their thinking are not valid.

sir Allen
Firstly, as far as I am concerned, this is a Conservative site, NOT a Republican one. There is a difference. Conservative Democrats, however rare, do exist... and IMHO liberal Repubs, too... see John Mc for further details.

Second, when you post "I would suggest that hiding one's hated attribute out of fear of physical violence is not the solution to hate in a civilized society." - that is not exactly what I meant. ALL people, period, should ALWAYS consider their actions versus the setting they are in. This is similar to these poor kids that make BooCoo bucks in professional sports, and whine because they can't go out to a club without fear of someone trying to take advantage of them. (see recent Plaxico Burress issue).

What I am trying to say, is related to why I think Liberalism is a pipe dream: Liberals see things in terms of how they think things *should* be, and conservatives tend to see things for how they *are*.

Doesn't matter that it is not right that NFL and NBA players can no longer do the same things they used to when they were just another poor guy, the reality is is they they ARE now rich and famous... and that reality should factor in to every decision they make. None of this excuses ANY crimes perpetrated against them, all I am saying is that better choices would have resulted in a non-issue.

sodomites
For all of you who claim that homosexuality is a perversion because 'the parts don't fit together', you do realize that heterosexuals engage in oral and anal sex as well, right?

I have never seen weaker arguments for a moral imperative in my life. Here is a link to scientific statement about homosexuality that was requested earlier. There is actually much in the literature about multiple gene interaction and environmental causes that refute the pure hatred of gays on moral grounds found here. Happy reading!

"Complex psycho-social behaviors such as sexual preference are not determined by a single gene, but by a gene-environmental process involving possibly hundreds of genes acting through complex environmental
factors (Rutter, 2006). “The fact is that so far, scientific research has not confirmed any one-to-one correspondence between a gene and a [complex psycho-social] behavior. Behavior results from the activity of multiple genes amidst the influence of multiple environmental factors”

http://www.narth.com/docs/080307Abbott_NARTH_article.pdf

Manuel
"The truth is that homosexualism [sic] is against nature and homosexuals can change their sexual life style to a normal, positive and productive life. The benefits are for life."

The bible tells thee so?

The published, peer reviewed science is clear, conclusive and unambiguous. Sexual orientation is no more a choice than eye color. Moreover, sexual orientation is NOT mutable. There is no science that supports the notion of pray away the gay.

Can you provide a SINGLE article published in a peer reviewed scientific journal that supports your opinions? Yeah, I know, this is a big conspiracy by politically correct liberals. Sure.

David Loving Cont.
Your comparison fails in another way. The main purpose behind the restrictive marriage laws was to retain racial purity, specifically white purity. The laws didn't for example bar blacks from marrying asians, but did bar whites from marrying either. This shows that the legislators weren't really being faithful to the principle they claimed was the impetus behind their law.

More to the point, the laws prevented people from reproducing with their chosen partner which was the main concern of the court. A gay couple cannot reproduce together (unless they are a gay couple in a heterosexual relationship ie a lesbian and gay man) so there is really no relevant similarity.

Loving
"You gloss over the simple fact that the court did not need to redifine [sic] marriage in order to reach its decision. "

They most certainly did redefine marriage from between two people of the same race to between to people. Outlawing polygamy redefined marriage. Civil divorce laws redefined marriage. Indeed, marriage has been redefined from being about the conveyance of property. In Loving, the Court said: "Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State." Similarly, the right to marry someone of the same gender resides with the individual.

There is an obvious absence of secular arguments in support of banning same-sex marriage. Banning gay marriage is entirely funded, choreographed and championed by the religious right. Separation of church and state is still the law of the land.

More importantly, I have yet to see a single cogent argument that explains how one couple's gay marriage in any way affects another couple's "traditional" marriage.

Sodomites, a race? yeah right.
Yes, I heard the argument before and only those who are anus’ worshippers can believe that being homosexual is at the same level of race. Let’s use our common sense. There is not such thing as homosexual “race.” Homosexuals have nothing to do with race but with behavior. Those who think that homosexuals are “born” that way are just justifying their unnatural life style because they are afraid to change and because they enjoy their sexual experiences with members of the same sex.

The truth is that homosexualism is against nature and homosexuals can change their sexual life style to a normal, positive and productive life. The benefits are for life. No more anal cancer, bowel cancer, and all the diseases associated with anal sex. The color of our skin cannot be changed our race or ethnic heritage cannot be reversed, but homosexual behavior yes. Homosexual behavior can be changed to a heterosexual normal style of life

Homosexuals are protected by the constitution and there is nothing that prevents them from getting married, as long as they married someone from the opposite sex. So the false claim that their rights are being violated is a straw man argument. They are protected as any other American citizen. So do not believe that they are not. Homsexualism is a choice, not a race.

Poor David... poor, poor David
You're a rather sad case. Maybe if you found a nice girl and got married, your thinking and your life might improve.

I have two gay friends who are married. They are committed to their wives and their children and they are remaining faithful to their families and their God.

Gays already have the right to marry - if they're just willing to be guided by their commitments rather than being guided by their groins.

Isaiah
Your 1:01 pm post is very well said!

David Loving
You gloss over the simple fact that the court did not need to redifine marriage in order to reach its decision. Marriage was already a union between a man and woman. Because the definition allowed more Marriages than the legislators wanted to recognize, they had to limit the types of available marriages.

Marriage does not by definition include the union of a man and man. In order to allow such a union, the court would have to redefine the word itself. No such exercise was necessary in Loving. It is clear that the two situations are quite different.

The Loving decision essentially declared--"if it fits under the definition, it is allowed." Gay marriage doesn't fit under the definition so states are free to reject it.

Tweaky
"2. When I say, '...a gay who is married', does a different picture come to mind? ... If you are a normal, thinking person, you see two different pictures. It's obvious that gays already have the right to marry."

That is a remarkably vacuous argument. The logic is transparently tortured.

There is nothing "obvious" about your definition of marriage other than the conventional. You are only proving the point that it's the same argument as interracial marriage. Would you have said that "black people already have the right to marry?" They did as long as it wasn't to a white woman.

You are also establishing the basis for my argument that gay people NEED legal protection under the law provided to them by the courts.

David Hart
http://www.tips-Q.com

Private/Public
While people may have a right to choose how they act in private, this does not grant them the right to act however they want in public. It further does not mean that public institutionas should be required to endorse, support and encourage that behavior.

The argument is stay out of my private life. How does my private life concern you? Stay out of my bedroom. Fine, society seems prepared to accept that proposition, but do us a favor and be consistent with your argument. When you start demanding the right to take your private life public, then you make it everyone's business. The more public you make your private life, the more the public has a right to restrict what you are doing.

Just because you have a right to do something in secret, doesn't mean you have a right to take that behavior public. Otherwise the whole privacy argument is a sham. The private isn't really private after all.

Some things are so obvious, it's painful
Thought exercise:

1. When I say, "...Gay Marriage", what picture comes to mind?

2. When I say, "...a gay who is married", does a different picture come to mind?

If you are a normal, thinking person, you see two different pictures. It's obvious that gays already have the right to marry.

Prop 8 simply stated the obvious.

Great column, Medved. There may yet be hope for you.

Loving v. Virginia
Here is what is in the record for the opposition:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

Sound familiar?

In point of act, ALL of the arguments in opposition to gay marriage are similarly sectarian and equally irrelevant in our legal system.

David
Your post shows a serious denial of reality. Gay marriage bans get passed by the people everywhere they are attempted even in the most liberal of states. Standing against gay marriage is not a losing issue in any way. It only has the potential to hurt candidates in a very limited number of states. Even in liberal California, standing against gay marriage seems to be a winning formulae.

14th Amendment
I remember Vice-President Al Gore tried to use it in his fight in Florida. The funny part was that he like others want the equal protection clause to apply only to them and violate the rights of others. He fought tooth and nail to stop service members from having their votes count because they were late. Forgeting the fact that the ballots were sent late and most of them were in foreign countries. It was the argument by Gore that the "intent" of the voter was the important thing not whether pushing a pointed stick through a piece of paper was too difficult. The law at the time was a close election mandates 1 hand recount not 75 or until the democrat wins. The 14th amendment was used by Gore to extend the recount. The Supreme Court said that the 14th amendment does not apply because Gore only wanted special treatment in a few counties not all of them. Equal means equal. All or none.

Allen on Loving
What was the definition of marriage when the court ruled in Loving? I don't think it included a union of two men or two women. The right to marriage is the right for a man and woman to join together in matrimony. I recently had a chance to look up marriage in a 1930 something dictionary. It specifically mentioned that it invovled a man and woman, but said nothing about race. The racial component of the laws were not based on the definition of marriage, and reflected an attempt to narrow the availability of marriage. The meaning of the word marriage included more than the laws allowed. The court struck down the limiting laws making giving full effect to the meaning of the word marriage. The right recognized in Loving, the right to marriage, is the right for a man and woman to unite in matrimony.

Gays do not want the right recognized in Loving. In fact they have that right, but refuse to exercise it. They do not want to unite as man and woman, rather they want to unite as man and man or woman and woman. The court did not say or in any way imply that there is such a right. This is not marriage as the word is defined at the time the court made the ruling.

What they are doing is saying "I have the right to x, but I don't want x, I want y, so lets call y x."

JM, Thump they bible
"sodomites are no different than...Pedophiles. They both are mental disorders and they both need to be dealt with by re-creating and enforcing laws."

Shall we be stoned?

By "sodomites," presumably you are referring to gay people? And precisely which medical association asserts that sexual orientation is a "mental disorder?"

Exactly how you would equate gay people with pedophiles requires an astonishing leap of "faith." Aside from the fact that the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual, one would have to pretend that it is comparable to the acts of consenting adults.

Aside from the offensiveness of your screed, it lacks any semblance -- even remotely -- to intellectual honesty.

The good news is that you folks will keep the GOP relegated to the bible belt and virtually guarantee a second term for Obama.

Alan
A) In that opinion you cited Warren said "Personal right" not Constitution Right. If he is correct then two people any two people enjoy that "Personal Right" or civil right. If you are going to extrapilate from that that two gay people can marry under Justice Warren the fourteenth amendment applies to every group I cited. The law against interracial marrige use the same arguments that you are using against multiple and interfamily marriage. It is either a fundemental right for everybody or the state can limit as it does for some of the reasons you argue.

If you can site some legal case that shows that gay people in the past 10-15 years not 1950 where a homosexual or lesbian was fired I would like to see it. I live in a VERY liberal state NY and it is a violation of the Labor Laws (Federal Labor Laws).

Nice try but again the fourteenth amendment has been used to argue so many things (abortion for one) that the liberty and equal protection clauses never say anything about abortion or homosexual marriage. It is time you people realize that if it is not in the US Constitution it is a privialge and the state can control who, what and when. Justice Warren and Stewart were referring to race and race alone. No one believes that same-sex marriage is protected using the 14th amendment and bars other groups. If the 14th amendment is the cornerstone of EQUAL PROTECTION then it applies to every class and group not one over the other. Equal means equal.

Good point, Mr. Medved
There is no flaw, sin, or even disadvantage inherent in being different from the majority of people within a society except the disadvantage that may be imposed by some of the majority group. Homosexual behavior, however, is not only aberrant behavior but debasing, ignoble, unhealthy, and disgusting to any person of decent character. Although it is not a sin to feel same-gender attraction, it is certainly sinful (despite efforts of the gay activist community to refute) to act on that attraction, just as it is sinful to give in to any temptation, sexual or otherwise. I believe the majority of African-Americans recognize the huge difference between their situation, which cannot be considered sinful in any respect, and that of people who consciously choose sinful behavior. Although I am not of African-American lineage, the attempt by gays to force a comparison is outrageous to me, and it is not surprising that it would insult and outrage the black community, as well.

Even for Medved, a New Low
"Even if you accept the politically correct argument that homosexuality is no more controllable or correctable than left-handedness, an individual still chooses how he wants to act on his inclinations,"

That is spectacularly, mind numbingly moronic. Medved grudgingly (almost) accepts the established science. Then he seems to be suggesting that gay people should be celibate? Hornier than thou? That's his solution? I should avoid sex entirely rather than have sex with another man? And precisely WHY on earth would I do that?

David Hart
http://www.tips-Q.com

sodomites are no different than...
...Pedophiles. They both are mental disorders and they both need to be dealt with by re-creating and enforcing laws.

Housing Discrimination
If a person owns a duplex and lives in one, why should they have to allow ANYONE to rent? There are spirits that go with activities, and if one does not want to have a witch or orgies in their building, they have a right to peace and safety. Your "rights" cannot trump mine. The whole thing is based upon a notion that everyone has to accept everything, no matter how anti-social, offensive, or perverted.

When dealing with race, it is simply skin color. If a person has a poor rental history, convictions for disturbing the peace, or is rude and not neighborly, it is not racially discriminatory to refuse them if they are of a different race. It only is if the decision was based upon skin color rather than character. Our family is inter-racial, and people love having us around because we support family and traditional uplifting values.

Every person worth their salt is discriminatory. We all discriminate. In fact, the term "discriminating gentleman" was considered an honor. I discriminate against vile, disgusting entertainment, watching hopeless sports teams, eating split pea soup and liver, clients who can't pay their bills and unfriendly customer service people. I also discriminate in my associations - I want to be around people with spiritual values, with uplifting moral standards - people who will help me and not try to trip me up. We are an inter-racial family, and when we got our first apartment, they grilled us thoroughly, calling my boss and checking our credit. People from all over the world lived there and the place was safe and wonderful. After a while, they stopped being so fussy. We and a lot of people moved out. It became Section 8 and there were gunshots in the hallways. The once magnificent Mayfair House on Lincoln Drive in Philadelphia became an ugly 16-story empty decaying hulk. It is now demolished and turned into parkland. We need to really look at things differently or our whole society will end up just like that.


Marriage and interlocking
If you want to use an electric lamp, do you connect its plug (male) to another plug (also male)? Also, if you need to extend power froma wall outlet, do you connect the socket (female) on the extension cord to the outlet (female)?

Perhaps the people who voted for Proposition 8 know what is natural and what is unnatural.

eddie too
I don't know whether the act of sodomy itself, (not clear whether you are including by heterosexual couples as well or just homosexual ones) but there was a recent story about a couple brought together, one might say, by an appreciation of that act, who took in a 4 year old boy who had been left to care for his new born brother because they were being cared for in a neglectful heterosexual family. 4 years later, through the good parenting of that couple the brothers are reported to be thriving.

I think that is a pretty uplifting story. Children who are victims of neglect generally have very difficult lives, that these boys lives have been so positively influenced by this couple is pretty uplifting.

Amazingly some people would like to sacrifice these brothers out of the desire to maintain their condemnations of same sex couples. Have you ever heard anything so vile?

There are 26 letters in the alphabet

I can not imagine why those idiots with a birth defect that they are so proud of, want to have any association with normal people.

With their help, it is impossible to create a sentence in polite society that contains the words “Qu*er, and “Ga-y”. Now they want to put the word Marriage in the same pot hole.

I would think they would like their own word, one that is immediately recognized for what it describes. How about Garriage? That tells exactly what is being talked about, and does not ruin another good word in the language.

With the 26 letters in the alphabet, along with spaces and dashes, billions of words can be formed, and it would have a specific meaning.

When you see the word hippomatus, or alligator, you know exactly what it means, just like Garriage would let you know the subject is idiotic.

Moral issue or Racial issue?
The issue has been proposed in thirty states and it has passed in thirty states. I applaud all of the normal voters in California who passed Proposition 8. I helped pass the same proposition issue in Arizona. Does that make me Black? This has nothing to do with civil rights; it has to do with what normal people think is the definition of marriage. Is that gay bashing? No, it's just the simple fact of voters imitating life.

Accuracy
There is nothing at all "gay" about being sexually perverted. The correct adjective is not "gay" but, "homosexual."

the non-word "homophobia," were it a real word, would mean "fear of sameness." Try to understand that there is a difference between fear and simple disgust.

The term "African-American," can be applied correctly only to people who were born somewhere in Africa, subsequently moved to this country, and became naturalissed citizens. Thus, most people who call themselves "African-American," are not, they are simply Americans, who happen to be black. There are some people who think that Mr. Obama may indeed be an "African-American," but that is another matter.

Fiddler1 from KS

What difference does it make if Homosexual behavior is a choice or genetically imposed?

I frankly don't care what people do as long as it doesn't hurt others. To date there has been no data, no evidence that homosexual relationships hurt anyone outside of their relationship.

I support freedom. The more freedom people have the better until that freedom hurts others.

I oppose redefining marriage because it hurts the current man/woman marriages. I don't oppose Civil Unions because that has the potential to help a lot of people who are not gay but still have a legitamit need.

And a final note
You all sound like a bunch of whiny politically correct Democrats.

No offense. :)

"Black people should be insulted, blah blah blah."

This sort of thinking is nothing but the manifestation of a victim mentality which pathetically and selfishly holds on to the uniqueness of its suffering.

A comparison is apt or it isn't. The mere fact of past or present oppression does not give one a moral high ground justifying emotional resentment at the comparison. Such emotional resentment is immature and interferes with the proper human responses of (rational) objectivity and (emotional) empathy.

People need to grow up and stop looking for manufactured reasons to feel insulted. It's politically correct bullsh*t, frankly, and I am surprised to see it on a Republican site.

Moral issue or Racial issue?
The issue has been voted on in thirty states and it passed in thirty states. I applaud the State of California voters for voting for normalcy and attach no other meaning to their votes.

Oxymoron
Scientifically, there is no such thing as "marriage" unless the parts are distinct and interlock. This is true with carpentry joints, electronics, plumbing, computers, and wouldn't you know it, PEOPLE! I am in the design profession as an architect, and form does follow function.
The opponents of Prop 8 use the term "Gay marriage", but it is one of worst oxymorons possible.

The reason that homosexuality is considered unnatural is because it is! It is equivalent to trying to force a round peg into a square hole. Most people who act "liberal" about the subject do not understand what it is that homosexuals and lesbians actually do (it is extremely gross and not beautiful like the REAL marriage act).

When people hate God and how he made them, they rebel in various ways. To legitimize perversion is absurd, and to compare misuse of the human body with one's skin color is absurd and horrifically offensive. Rights are given by God, and nowhere does God allow for people to pervert the natural use of the human body.

Allen,

I choose not to accept your words regarding job and housing discrimination. Please offer proof is you want to be taken seriously.

The idea of marriage addressed in Loving is that of opposite-sex couples and was not in the remotest thoughts related to same-sex couples.

Again, you make unsupported assertions about government interests in polygamy, polyamory and minors. Further more, in the instance of same-sex coupling incest is a non-issue.

Clearly, you need to spend more time researching and contemplating this issue before displaying your ignorance on TH.

I wish people who use the word "gay"

would instead be more precise in their language.

There is definite difference between people who engage in same-sex sodomy and those who refuse to engage in such acts.

Does "gay" apply only to practioners of same-sex sodomy or to all people who are sexually aroused by members of the same sex?

Black insult
It is true that the black man cannot hide his color and has to face the bigotry and discrimination every day of his life.

For the homosexual community to compare itself to the black struggle is truely insulting. Look at the history of the black man in this country and compare it to the homosexual.

The homosexual has suffered but a hang nail in comparison.

How are the civil rights of those

who engage in acts of same-sex sodomy violated?

Consider this
If it weren't for the resentment blacks feel with the comparison of their struggle for freedom with the gay rights movement, fewer would have voted against Proposition 8. It might well have passed. If gays were take greater account of black sensitivities, it has an excellent chance of passing the nest time. And there will be a next time.

Theodore
Your post is so full of factual and legal error, I am not sure that I can address it all. Let me tackle the big ones.

1. Homosexuals get denied jobs and fired from jobs simply for being gay all the time in states which don't have sexual orientaiton written into their anti-discrimination statutes. I know people who have been fired for being gay. It wasn't that many decades ago that there was a movement in California to prevent gay people from being teachers. Thankfully, Ronald Reagan stood up for gay teachers and the measure failed.

2. Homosexuals do get denied housing simply because they are gay. Again, I am aware of actual cases. Even more significantly, as buster has pointed out, many innocent, vulnerable gay teens are thrown out of their own house by their parents. That is sick and wrong.

3. The right to marry is a right, not a privilege. Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man." Loving v, Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967).

4. Restriction of polygamy, incest and minors is different because in those cases the government has a legitimate state interest in protecting potential victims. On the other hand, mere moral disapproval of a group cannot be a legitimate governmental interest under the Equal Protection Claus. Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003).


Marriage laws in the U.S.A.

are indifferent to the sexual orientation of people affected by these laws.

They apply to all people equally regardless of sexual orientation.

That is why the supporters and glorifiers of acts of same-sex sodomy have not supplied any evidence of marriage laws discriminating based on sexual orientation. If they could, they would.

Is there anything redeeming about

engaging in acts of same-sex sodomy?

Of course not, if there were we would hear about it constantly.

Anyone heard or read anything recently about how beneficial or up,lifting acts of same-sex sodomy are to individuals or societies?

No Right to a State License
Marriage neutering activists hitching their cause to the "civil rights" bandwagon is clever - if it works. I don't think it is legitimate, however.

http://walrus.blogtownhall.com/2008/10/28/the_race_card_and _prop_8.thtml

analogies
Analogies are imperfect. Expecting an exact fit is sort of like seeing a post by MoniQue and expecting it to be on topic--it ain't gonna happen.

Sadly, not all of you will get that on the first read through...

Craig
I appreciate your post.

In the case I referenced, the guy killed was a straight guy who had been drinking and was walking down the street arm in arm with his brother.

I agree that given the amount of prejudice and hate in the world, gay people have to be careful.

However, I would suggest that hiding one's hated attribute out of fear of physical violence is not the solution to hate in a civilized society. If a pill had been discovered in the 1950's and 60's a pill that changed black pigmentation to caucasian, would your (or Mr. Medved's) recommendation have been that black people go to the doctor and get it?

The solution is for all responsible citizens to condemn hatefulness, for criminals to be condemned for hate crimes unreservedlt (as you have done), and for people like Mr. Medved to maintain an intellectual, analytical discourse, not rely on emotional appeals encouraging people to be outraged and indignant against gay people.

All are Poor Analogies
1) The civil rights argument, as Michael points out, is a bad and insulting one. Michael is right in that you can not hide your skin color, but you can hide your sexual orientation. I will take his word for the economic equality with heterosexuals plus no one would deny a homosexual a job, or a place to live. Marriage is and always was a union of a Man and a Woman for the purpose of procreation and stability in a society. If homosexual’s want some form of union, since it is both a violation of the bible and of biology, then they can form their own cultural symbols. The act as I mentioned before violates biology if nothing else.

2) The other argument they use is children. One argument, that is really offensive, is that some women in their marriage cannot conceive children so they go to a fertility clinic. The idea that because of a sickness that causes women to become infertile or a biological anomaly they are born with masks a number of responses. A) the fact that 1 in maybe a million women become infertile and need intervention through science is that an anomaly. Two men or two women (100%) can not under any circumstance conceive a child together. B) Since the state issues certificates of marriage and it is not expressly worded in the Constitution it is a privilege not a right. When the state can bare certain people from getting a marriage license then it is not a violation of the Constitution’s equal protection clause. If it were true then multiple marriages (usually more than one woman), brother and sister, adult and child (+18 to -16) could argue the same equal protection since the violation of more than one wife is a violation of the first amendment on religious grounds.

A behavior that is aberrant (out of the norm) on its face is one reason why most people of color (more religious then whites) are opposed to gay marriage.

To read my full text go to my blog Money and Culture.

Gay pain
One of the worst things that can happen to a young person is to be rejected by their family. An African-American child has NEVER been thrown out of their house by their family for the sole reason that they are black. By thousands of black, white, and brown young people have been left homeless for the sole reason that they are gay.

Great column!
This is the most well-reasoned argument I've yet seen on this subject. Free of emotion, full of salient and lucid observations, it appeals to common sense and the honesty both sides of this issue should display.

Seth
Part of the reason that I think homophobia may be an appropriate term is that the arguments made by people opposing gays are so bad. Reread your comments above, and do you really not see how strained they are?

You really think that violating the civil rights of jews is different than violating the civil rights of gays because what exactly? Jews are more diverse? Are you so clueless abotu gays that you don't know that they run the same gamut of character types as jews. It appears they are equally likely to be conservative for example, which is somewhat astounding since it is no longer the case that conservatives are directly targeting jews.

You think that society does more to constrain harmful behavior based on religious grounds? Are you simply unaware of the first amendment, or the latitude given to actions that can be claimed to be religious behavior?

Could you find somewhere in your argument, the difference between religious civil rights and homosexual civil rights that actually makes a moral difference? It is true that homosexuality starts with an h and religion starts with an r. But again that doesn't seem to be the basis for a serious disanalogy.

AudiR10
Your comment illustrates a relevant point, although probably not in the way you intended. People who point to the fact that Blacks voted for Prop 8 seem to be relying on some false idea that when a group is discriminated against they naturally feel empathy for the next group that is discriminated against. But as you show, it is as often the case that they resent the idea that other groups suffering should compare to their own. How dare blacks think they went through anything similar to what we went through.

Jews have, on average, actually been surprisingly good at empathizing with other people who have been discriminated against. That is why despite being comparatively wealthy as a group we are also comparatively liberal as a group. But we are very protective about holocaust comparisons. So why should we be surprised that blacks are equally protective about civil rights comparisons.

As you show, the fact that blacks resent other groups being compared to them does not mean that the other groups are comparable. It just means blacks have a tendency that is common to people in general, namely of wanting their own suffering to be recognized as special, whether it is or not.

Allen
You state "Apparently Mr. Medved thinks that the poor guy who got beaten to death in New York last week is culpable for failing to avoid the "inconvenience and unpleasantness" of being brutally murdered for no other reason than because people thought he was gay"

I do not know about this story, but it bears resemblence to the Matthew Shepard story, which I am familiar with.

First and foremost, regardless of HOW the victims were acting, appearing, or whatever action they took, the perpetrators of the crime are completely and totally responsible for it, and the victims did not deserve death.

That said, we must all always be aware and cognizant that our actions, no matter who we are or what we appear to be, ALWAYS HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

If Matt Shepard had not been in a redneck bar hitting on some guy, (we may never know what really happened there, but that seems to be the most logical happening based on the info we do have) he may yet be with us today - in other words, he had the power in his own hands to prevent harm to himself, in much the same way as I can avoid my own demise by not going to a KKK meeting wearing an "Obama 2008" T-shirt...

Blacks Didn't Need an Analogy
The need to resort the the flawed analogy highlights the weakness of the gay rights argument. The civil rights movement didn't need to analogize to anything in an attempt to show the merits of their cause. It was obvious on its face. It stood on its own.

The analogy between race and orientation is flawed in many ways. It is full of imperfect parallels which destroy the strength of the analogy. Despite the weakness of the analogy, it is still a central argument for advancement of special gay privleges masquerading as rights. Continual reliance on a deeply flawed analogy seems to indicate a lack of any truely strong argument.

Not the Same
The laws targetting blacks actually targeted blacks. They did this deliberately. They referred to race in order to have their effect. Race was the key, the center, the focus the core of those discriminatory laws.

The laws targetting gays for their sexual orientation don't actually target them for their orientation. The laws don't care about orientation. They don't say if you are gay then things go one way, but if you are straight it is different. The focus isn't on the status (sexual orientation) as it was with the laws the civil rights struggle fought against. Those laws focused on the status (race).

The marriage laws if anything are discriminatory based on sex rather than religion. The man who can't "marry" a man is being discriminated against not because of orientation, but because of sex. No man (whether gay or normal) may marry another man. The law doesn't focus on orientation, it focuses on sex.

I wish I could attain
the same low salary as Magic Johnson and the rest of the (primarily black) NBA. Salaries in the NFL aren't bad, either. By the way, I have a PhD ...

Truly amazing (Part 2).
Ad Lon:

Comparing homosexual behavior to religious freedom is a false comparison. Religions are not equivocal with behaviors--as evidenced by the fact that not all religious adherents act in exactly the same way. Nor, are they necessarily able to be singled out based on a singular behavior in which they engage; or, in which they have the desire to engage. If a religious adherent starts doing something that is damaging to the society--or, at the least, not very helpful--then they will be rightfully censured and taken before the proper, God-given authorities.

I don't deny that there is some folks that out-and-out hate homosexuals, but these people are a small minority. Saying that one does not find homosexual behavior to be morally acceptable is not hatred. Saying that homosexuals should not be allowed to fundamentally redefine the institution of marriage is not hatred. Hatred would be homosexuals getting lynched in large numbers; or, being beaten either to near to death, or to death itself. I have yet to hear of any homosexual rights marches having fire-hoses turned on them at full blast; or, having had dogs unleashed on the for the purpose of seriously injuring them. Heck, I have yet to hear of a homosexual being told to drink at a separate fountain, eat at a different restaurant, or have to move to the back of the bus. Such things as those are examples of hatred.

Truly amazing (Part 1).
Ad Lon:

I think we found the "more clueless claim" than Medved's: namely, that someone who doesn't even know as much as Medved does about the teacher in question would presume to know more than Medved about this very teacher! Not to mention the fact that the rebuttal misses the point. The teacher could hide his orientation. Blacks back then could not hide their skin color, and were targeted a lot more frequently than gays were back then--and are now.

The idea that sexual orientation is a "fundamental" part of one's identity is a dubious claim at best--especially in light of the fact that no one can seem to set parameters for what "sexual orientation" actually entails. Further, if it is discriminatory to tell gays that they need to hide their sexual inclinations and proclivities, then--ceteris paribus--the same goes for pedophiles; or, any other sexuality that society once considered aberrant and/or perverted.


I respectfully fdisagree
The primary reason for the higher opposition ot gay marriage initiatives by black people in California is their religious belief that homosexuality is wrong. Those who think homosexuality is wrong are offended at the civil rights comparison because they don't like gay people. Simple as that.

Are there differences in the civil rights struggles of black people and homosexuals? Yes, obvious differences. Are there similarities. Yes, of course. They are both civil rights struggles.

Americans of good will support marriage equality. Those who claim to be offended by the legitimate identification of the legal inequality gays face as a civil rights issue are neither people of good will nor good americans.

There are lots of different measuring sticks one could use to determine whether it is worse ot be black or gay in current America. I would suggest the most compelling one is the likelihood one will be exposed to violence for simply being or appearing to be a member of one of these groups.

Apparently Mr. Medved thinks that the poor guy who got beaten to death in New York last week is culpable for failing to avoid the "inconvenience and unpleasantness" of being brutally murdered for no other reason than because people thought he was gay. It is criminal acts like that and people like you who carelessly contribute to societal views which encourage them that are appalling, and it is denial of the violent hatred against gay people which is dishonest, Mr. Medved.

Buster:...What?
"Our society has made it much more painful to be gay?" To the contrary. I would submit that gays enjoy more freedom of expression, recognized civil unions, work place protections, special "hate crimes" laws...
on an unprecidented level than any time in the history of this Republic. Not to mention glorification via the entertainmeny media, their own newspapers, magazines, Bars and clubs, even schools.
The so-called pain is brought on by their insistence on forcing their lifestyle down the throats of the majority who will never accept their it or same sex "marriage" as normal or equivalent to heterosexual relationships/marriage. No, Gay activists have made it more painful to be heterosexual in this decadent age.

Clueless
Mary is clueless, because there is not a scintilla of evidence proving that homosexuality is genetic. Nice try, though. Homosexuality is a behavior, not a condition, and up until fairly recently it was considered perverted by nearly everyone, instead of only by the intelligent and enlightened as it is now.

Ya Missed It Medved
Perhaps the more important reason for blacks to vote against against gays -- they do not want another "minority" to get in on the act. And the gay group would have much higher status. They got educated and earned more money than the black people were allowed.

The Cost of Being Gay
When I prefaced my remarks at a discussion of the influence of liberals in academia with a confession that I was a conservative, a leftist colleague thanked me for "coming out of the closet." I've chosen to be an outspoken conservative/libertarian where I work and it has real costs. I cannot imagine what it must be like to hide being gay. I recognize the role children play in justifying the special institution of marriage, but as a former homophobe, suggest our society has made it much more painful to be gay than many are willing to admit. The author's remarks suggest he thinks personal GDP is the catch-all measurement of happiness; it is not.

John Lewis
Once I wrote a respectful letter to John Lewis, my putative representative when I lived in Georgia, pointing out how offensive and misguided his characterization of the mayhem Blacks inflicted on us, themslves and each other with the Holocaust was to those of us with Jewish ancestry and whole branches of our family missing due to the actions of outside forces -- that is, the Blacks are exterminating themselves, as the Jews did not.

He left me a voice mail message calling me a Racist.

Perhaps the best thing that can happen to the Victim Culture that has replaced the Black Family and Church culture there was before the Sixties is to have a real, tangible enemy like the homosexuals. This will allow them to stop focusing on their navels and understand at last that they need to reject the stereotypes about Black helplessness, victimhood and doomed extermination by, er, other Blacks, even as they insist that Whitey adhere to them in toto. Ugliness in others is easier to recognize than ugliness in your own mind. Sometimes it takes an outsider to show scorn its own image.

"...complicated mixed backgrounds....."
"1. The expression of gay identity is a matter of choice, while only individuals with complicated mixed backgrounds (like Tiger Woods) get any element of choice in determining their racial identity."


A choice such as say, the obamessiah deciding to be black rather that Halfrican-American?

Civil Unions have public support.

Since Civil Unions have public support, we really need to question the motivations of Gays who want to re-define marriage.

The fact that the Homo-lobby doesn't pursue Civil Union legislation tells me they really are not seeking civil rights or equal rights at all.

They are choosing to remain victims and not find a satisfactory resolution.

How many "associations" will we ignore?
Who cares what Obama thinks? What do YOU think America? How many “associations” are we going to ignore and simply just let a CHICAGO THUG and Michelle Angela Davis Obama waltz in and DISGRACE THE WHITE HOUSE?

We have one last chance to contact the Electoral College to stop the constitutional crises that will result if Barack Obama gets sworn in without meeting the presidential requirement of being a natural born US citizen.

AMERICA IS CALLING – SHE NEEDS US NOW: PLEASE SIGN THE LETTER TODAY! Deadline is Thurs Dec 12 1pm (EST), takes 30 seconds, FOR THE COST OF A COUPLE PACKS OF SMOKES LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD!
http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/%E2%80%A2-ur gent-sign-fedex-letter-to-electoral-college/

The letters will be sent FedEx to all 538 members of the Electoral College and will be delivered Friday morning, giving each elector the weekend to consider the constitutional issues raised by Obama's presidency.

Remember: We are not responsible whether they listen or they fail to listen, but we ARE responsible to deliver the message [Read Ezekiel 2 & 3]

Maybe
Blacks just see homosexuality for what it is, a sick,disguting perversion that needs to be exterminated. Mary, your proof that this abomination is genetic is what? Documented facts only please.

Over & Over & Over Again

This is the SAME article that Medved always writes on this subject, just some words changed here & there. The ideas are just as ignorant, just as wrong, and just as offensice as ever.

amazing
It is hard to imagine a more clueless claim than that Medved's teacher in the '60s did not feel discrimination because he managed to hide his orientation (sort of given that Medved suspected others probably did more). Can someone really be clueless to not realize how limiting that would be?

As Medved should know, there have always been light skinned blacks who could pass as white. But the idea that having to hide such a fundamental part of their identity is a sign of lack of discrimination is inane.

This bizarre idea that discrimination against homosexuals is not a civil rights issue because there is an element of choice (namely whether to act on who one is or avoid it to meet the bigotry of society) holds up only if one does not think that religious discrimination counts as a civil rights issue. A kind of bizarre idea.

Homosexuals do have the advantage that because homosexuality occurs seemingly randomly distributed through society, past discrimination does not go forward generationally in the way that it does for blacks. Women have the same advantage.

On the otherhand, some of the advantage that homosexuals seem to have in terms of success may be a result of the fact that people who are successful are in a better position to come out. The fact that it remains harder for poor black gay people to come out (and poor white gay people as well) will have the effect of making homosexuals look more successful than they actually are.

Certainly homosexuals have been impressive in what they have accomplished in a world full of hatred towards them, but the fact that the poorest homosexuals are least likely to be counted will create a false sense of how well they are doing overall.

Clueless one
Gee, I wonder if your finest teacher, Mr. S., would concur with your assessment that he was never discriminated against. What an arrogant and insulting statement to make of someone you seem to care for - away in a distance where I guess you can't smell him or anything. Homosexuality is genetic, but I don't think it's contagious.

You are clueless, sir.

To LovelsEqual, du, Hunter
Since none of you will read the article before starting on your half baked rants about homosexual marriage, you should have, this sums the arguement up nicely.

Hunter uses threats to state homosexuals will get what they want. Period. (his.her words)

The author is correct. This portion of time belongs in history as the most heterophobic, Christophobic time of hate ever seen before.

None of these people dare attack a black church or a mosque for their beliefs. Smarmy if you ask me.


Medved a hypocrite and a liar just like
the rest of the GOP establishment taling points reading frontmen Hewitt, Prager, Gallagher, Hannity, Ingraham etc...

Michael, why were you silent about Scwarzenegger and Romney's illegal implementation of same sex "marriage?"

Why did you like your liberal "Republican" RINO friends advance the liberal lie that the courts "legalized" same sex "marriage?"

Do you realize that by ceding the lie that judges make law that you are actually advancing the culture of death and the gay agenda further and faster than the left could ever do on their own?

Do you realize how many of your listeners no longer trust you since you covered up for Mitt Willard Romney's illegal institution of same sex "marriage" and his establishement of 50 dollar abortions as a "healthcare benefit?" (even though you were made aware of his actual record on numerous occasions privately!!!!!!!!!!!)

You are a fraud Michael. Your anti-Christian bigotry is readily apparent to anybody who listens to you and it is clear that you, Hewitt, Prager and are neo-cons thru and thru.
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