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Wednesday, August 20, 2008
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Absolutes, Moral Clarity, and the Great Political Divide
by Michael Medved
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Why do conservatives and liberals respond so differently to the current war in Georgia?

The answer to that question exposes the great political divide separating left and right, Democrats and Republicans, in today’s America. The stark contrast between Barack Obama and John McCain at this weekend’s televised Civil Forum at California’s Saddleback Church further underlined the vast gulf in worldviews when it comes to injecting moral standards or arguments into politics.

Conservatives approach every challenge with a determination to approach the question (as far as possible)as a choice between right and wrong, good and evil. Liberals, on the other hand, look for nuances, subtleties or extenuating circumstances. They feel reluctant to denounce any action or position as unequivocally wrong, or to endorse any alternative as quintessentially right.

Those who take their inspiration from Ronald Reagan enthusiastically embrace moral absolutes; those who admire Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton or Barack Obama feel uncomfortable with terms like good and evil when applied to politics and world affairs. Republicans relish crisp black-and-white when drawing distinctions; “progressives” feel an incurable fondness for shades of gray. On foreign policy, social issues, even the economy, the right wants to take sides and to make sure the good guys win. The left, on the other hand, seeks to split the difference among warring interests in behalf of a “can’t-we-all-get-along” vision of moral equivalency.

When John McCain responded to the invasion of Georgia with a full-throated, unequivocal denunciation of Russian bullying, Barack Obama’s top foreign policy advisor, Susan Rice, condemned the Republican nominee for “shooting from the hip” and “complicating” the situation. Her criticism echoed the sentiments of nervous 1980’s liberals who slammed President Reagan’s “simple-minded” and “destabilizing” characterization of the Soviet Union as an “Evil Empire.”

In contrast to The Gipper’s famous courage and clarity, Obama offered a mild and even-handed initial response to the attack on Georgia calling on both sides, amazingly, to “show restraint and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war… All sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability of Georgia.” To him, in other words, the bloody attack and brutal occupation of a sovereign state represented some sort of misunderstanding, an unfortunate break between rivals of more or less comparable guilt and legitimacy. His feeble response to the most menacing Russian maneuver in a generation recalls the leftist insistence of moral equivalence between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. at the height of the Cold War. Yes, the Soviets might murder millions and oppress hundreds of millions of Eastern Europeans, but America had no right to respond because we sanctioned segregation in our own southern states or supported corrupt dictators in Latin America.

When conservatives insisted that the struggle between the superpowers still represented a conflict between good and evil, they never claimed that America counted as flawless and pure, or that the Soviet Union possessed no virtues at all (after all, they sustained a formidable ballet company). The Bible informs core western concepts of right and wrong, but even Holy Scripture features heroes with prominent flaws and shortcomings (like King David, Samson, even Moses and Abraham) who nonetheless champion goodness and righteousness against the vastly more cruel and corrupt forces arrayed against them.

Fortunately, the Good Book reports no liberal interest groups of antiquity who insisted on defending the civil rights of Philistines or Amalekites, or demanded respectful consideration of Pharaoh's heartfelt arguments against freeing his slaves, or championed a compassionate, multicultural outlook that defended the time-honored, distinctive Roman tradition of treating religious dissenters to crucifixion and mutilation.

Liberals have alienated countless ordinary citizens by their promiscuous deployment of sympathy – expressing compassion and understanding for foreign nations and domestic criminals who don’t deserve their concern in any way. The persistent suspicion that leftists count as “soft on crime” comes from their noisily expressed 1960’s solicitude for imprisoned perpetrators above the victims of violence – much as today’s liberals seem vastly more worried over the welfare of the anti-American fanatics in Guantanamo than they are for the heroic counter-terrorism fighters who keep us safe. It’s not entirely fair to say that the ACLU and its acolytes hate America, but it does seem that they feel no more loyalty to their own country than they do to its most implacable enemies.

In any event, the moral obtuseness of the left remains apparently incurable, resulting in the stubborn refusal to draw distinctions between good guys and bad guys at home or abroad, or to acknowledge that the decent or indecent behavior of nations or individuals must dictate the reward and respect they receive.

This same refusal applies to economic policies, where the redistributionist rhetoric of the Obama camp demands financial and standard-of-living guarantees disconnected from an individual’s hard work, productivity or moral worth. Unfortunately, the instinctive liberal reluctance to take sides between the righteous and the rotten doesn’t mean a non-interventionist, hands-off approach to economic policy. On the contrary, the left favors aggressive governmental involvement to punish – or at least question – material success. To progressives, that success counts as an indication of unfair advantage, rather than the result of productivity and job creation. A society becomes rich only if its members create wealth, but the left views such accumulation of resources as suspect and dangerous. Liberals want economic intervention not to protect or reward virtue, but to restrain the natural consequences of virtuous behavior such as disciplined work, patient saving, stable family formation, and entrepreneurial risk-taking.

Instead of glorifying the business people who sustain communities and provide jobs, liberals try to show their compassion by sanctifying the homeless – a population overwhelmingly categorized by substance abuse, criminality, and untreated mental illness. The aggressive insistence that government should champion the unfortunate doesn’t amount to the application of a moral calculus to political questions but, rather, the refusal to consider moral standards. The left looks for the least powerful or successful as the only appropriate recipients of governmental favor – considering only status (the more hapless the better), not virtue or vice.

The liberal discomfort with ethical absolutes became painfully apparent during Barack Obama’s joint appearance with John McCain at Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church on Saturday night, August 16th.

The Democratic Senator dodged uncomfortable questions about marriage – declaring that he defined marriage “as the union between a man and a woman” but never explaining his opposition to a California initiative that supports that definition, or his commitment to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (signed by President Clinton) that applied the same standard at the federal level. When it came to abortion, Obama allowed that “there is a moral and ethical element to this issue” but said nothing at all about what that “element” might be while insisting, “I am pro choice.”

Most tellingly, when asked by Rick Warren about how to deal with evil (“Do we ignore it? Do we negotiate with it? Do we contain it? Or do we defeat it?”), Obama refused to answer, saying only that evil should be “confronted.” His examples of evil – Darfur, street crime and child abuse in America – pointedly excluded the transcendent depravity of Islamo-Nazi terror, which turns the murder of children, and the suicide of other children, into holy acts.

Instead, he seemed to suggest that the United States should feel guilty about its own evil deeds, committed on behalf of good intentions, saying it’s “very important for us to have some humility in how we approach the issue of confronting evil, because of a lot of evil’s been perpetrated based on the claim that we were trying to confront evil.” In other words, Obama takes us back to the tired old moral equivalency arguments of thirty years ago, recycling a familiar plot from any number of acclaimed gangster movies – with the crusading cop becoming just as compromised and vicious as the criminal he’s determined to bust.

In real life, as in cinematic fiction, shades of gray occasionally do predominate, making it difficult to separate right from wrong, or to distinguish between good guys and villains. But on other occasions – most occasions in our contemporary world –it’s possible and necessary to make moral distinctions. That’s certainly the case in the current conflict between Russia and Georgia – where both sides may be imperfect, but one party to the conflict bears vastly greater guilt for aggression, destruction and obfuscation, while the other side remains far more worthy of sympathy and support.

The same logic applies to the American Presidential race and other political skirmishes of the moment. Both sides may be imperfect, but one faction carries a far more debilitating burden of obtuseness and relativism, while the other – for all its faults – strives more consistently for moral clarity and merits wider support.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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Great job Medved!
The Saddleback humiliation of the boy child was telling.
Adults have had it up to their eyeballs with this infantile equivalency garbage.
The left cannot coexist with everyday grown-up reality.
It is, at it's core, inherently incompatible with adulthood and reason.
It's becoming more apparent by the day.
-And saddleback has done much to reveal this vital point.

Will, Kimberly paid posters multi names
The article will stick. It is passed around all over the world, read, digested and in most cases appauded much to your chagrin.And that is important, far more than your attempts to deflect the point of the column.

Interesting that both Kimberly, 7 sticks, and Will post nearly simultaneously on different threads. Check out Michelle Malkins column, good columns, also trashed by two of these three , in the same order. Makes you wonder if this is a debate point or nothing more than a paid attack.

Will posts under several different names and has been identified as a paid poster by others here at TH

Michael Medved. Not much I'm afraid...
I think that Georgia attacked first, then the Russians went in to repel them. Why is it that Fox "news" has such a hard time telling it's viewers this?

All I can say is with Medved's intellect, what a shame that he can't use it for good? Such negativity! Liberals this and leftists that.

Just a couple of notes:
Mccain isn't the President. His messages to the Russias are not being coordinated with our administration and therefore could complicate matters. Susan Rice is correct to denounce mccain's comments.

Medved sez:
"On foreign policy, social issues, even the economy, the right wants to take sides and to make sure the good guys win. "
They do? Really? The facts of the last 7 years would prove medved wrong. The "Good guys" like Enron? Exxon? Duke Cunningham? Blackwater? KB&R? One could argue that since he's still free, even Osama Bin Laden has won, thanks to this idiotic administration. Is he a "good guy" now?

Some of the BS that Medved writes is just unbelievable. If America is the greatest country in the world (And it is.) why do we torture? Why, if what Medved writes is true, and there are so many "Anti-American fanatics" in Guantanamo, why have we been sending them back to the middle east quietly and without trials? Would we send fanatics away? No. We've held these people for 6 years on no evidence at all, then we send them back where we captured them. That's Russian, not American.
I'm proud of what America once was but I'm embarrassed by what America has become these last 7 years. Medved is smart enough to know better, but he writes this tripe anyway. Shame on Medved!

So many insiders have been coming out and saying that everything we liberals have said for the last 4 years has been true. Stop supporting Bush and his cronies and lets all get together and bring our country back to the level at which it should have been all along.


"NO $ALE"
No, Michael, on foreign affairs conservatives don't view the world exclusively thru the prism of right and wrong, but rather thru the prism of self interest and national security.

Leftists and idealists see the world exclusively thru the prism of right and wrong.


Another Myth for the Left
First it was:
Bush stole the 2000 election.
Then it was:
Bush Lied, people died.
Now it's:
McCain cheated in the cone of silence.

Don't you guys ever get tired of making up weak easily refutable excuses for your failures? I guess it's easier than owning up to your lack of substance.

Secularist Absolutes
This is not a trick question, but could the liberal posters out there name the good and evil in the world? Maybe I'm wrong, but it always seems like Liberals/Democrats explain away behavior and use the phrase "who are we to judge?". So I would like to know some liberal absolutes of good & evil, right and wrong.

Medved is right for a change!
Yes, Micheal is right. We should judge the world in terms of right and wrong. And we should immediately condemn the aggressors in Georgia, and damn their actions! What's that? The Georgians started it by invading Ossetia and killing a bunch of Russians? They were armed and trained by Americans and Israelis? Whoops! Never mind!

A Brush Too Broad.
Geesch, Medved, that "brush" covered everything, including the kitchen sink. Your fans, and anti-fans, love it, I see. It's not worth the paper it's not printed on. And, Medved, I am a conservative, and a Repulican, all my life; and it is your ilk that has hurt this idea, and this Party, more than any other.

You don't even mind using an obfuscation in your use of the term, "The Good Book," and what a lowdown thing to do, the way you did it. My experience is that "The Good Book" certainly includes the teachings of Jesus Christ, does it not?

Well, sir, Jesus Christ taught the opposite of what you are pronouncing in that aspect of your article. That's one thing. The rest of it is just too ridicules to comment on.

I don't think you are a bad man, no, not at all. It, this asinine "brush too broad," must be what comes from living your life at the movies.

Europe's Problem
It's beyond past time to ween Europe off the American teats. Do we really "have" to meddle in every aspect of every crisis in every nook and cranny in the world ?
NATO's original purpose was to counter the Warsaw Pact. Having fullfilled that purpose over a decade ago, like every other big bureaucracy, it's members now are desperately seeking justification for their existence with no clear purpose in sight.
Georgia is basically Europe's problem. They have 350 million prosperous souls to Russia's 170 million not so prosperous, let them assume responsibility for their own interests.
Meddling in the Bears' backyard and poking it with a very short stick is not a very smart move at all.

Dumbest line in Star Wars
(Trust me, this is relevant)
In a scene in Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace, We are told of a crisis between the people of a planet and the leaders of a multiplanetary "Trade Federation." The planet was blockaded by the enemy force. Ships entering and leaving were fired upon. A delegation of negotiators from the galaxy's central government to settle the issue was overdue. Lines of communication off the planet were cut off, and the queen's advisors indicated that invasion was inevitable.

The (14-year-old) queen's response? "I will not condone a course of action that will lead us to war."

That is easily the dumbest line in a 6-movie series that ran around 13 hours of total filming written by a guy (George Lucas) who has admitted he's not great at writing dialog. (Please note, I'm enough of a fan of Star Wars that I even LIKED this movie).

When you're already at war (declared or not) NOT taking aggressive action to defend your lands is the height of irresponsible leadership.

You expect this from a 14-year-old girl character in a movie written by a flaming liberal.

You don't (or shouldn't) expect it from a United States Senator and candidate for President.

So Russia invades the soveriegn territory of Georgia, ostensibly because there is resistance from some Georgian provinces to Georgian rule. Georgia's government was freely elected and is pro-western (which irks Russia, because Georgia was so well taken care of when it was part of the Soviet Union (note sarcasm.)) And I'm sure the big oil pipeline in southern Georgia had nothing to do with the invasion.

And Barack Hus-Change Obama says both sides -- BOTH SIDES -- should “show restraint and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war."

Hey, Barack, what do you think an invasion means?

One more thing
So it's OK for Russia to invade a soveriegn nation with a freely elected government and an oil pipeline, but it's not OK for us to depose an evil dictator who has ignored warnings about his own aggressive tendencies (as demonstrated by history) and his dealings with people that want our entire way of life destroyed?

Wrong, again.
Tell me this, Mr. Medved. As a Jew, would have wished for all the civilians who hid Jews from the Nazi to have only thought in terms of absolute right and wrong? After all, many of them lied to the Nazis to protect Jews, deceived the Nazis to protect Jews, harbored Jews -- all the time lying.

I'm very grateful that those brave, courageous people didn't think your way of absolutes.

wes
How is it that Georgia attacked first when the area in question is within its own borders? The people in that area are Russian-aligned and Russia has been instigating rebellion in that area. BUT--the land belongs to Georgia. They have a right to quell rebellion within their own borders. How is it that I know that and you don't?

false dichotomy
Medved is spot-on about large components of the right and left. Mistakenly, he presents this dichotomy as our only choice and then chooses the one over the other. Like many of the partisan pols we're invited to elect, he fails to acknowledge that the majority of adult Americans embrace neither unthinking moralism nor wishy-washy sophistry. Instead, while we recognize that all things are relative, we are able to see where on the continuum each event lies (regarding the specific example of the Russian invasion of Georgia, Russia is the relative bad actor). We also understand the necessity for pragmatic decisiveness; that is, we do not oppose Russia because Russia is immoral, we oppose Russia because Russia is our adversary.

Wrong, again
What a stunningly ridiculous show of illogic! You are "absolutely" going to weigh a lie against the death of innocent people? I trust God knows the motivation of the liars that saved lives and does not condemn them for that. A little reason please!

jerabaub
"Leftists and idealists see the world exclusively thru the prism of right and wrong."

Hardly. Leftists and idealists see the world exclusively through the prism that assumes the U.S. is in the wrong. They are well-informed on that subject, but when it comes to other things going on in the world, they are often woefully ignorant.

For example, not many leftists seem to realize that al-Qaida targets not just the U.S., but India also. Knowing that would make shambles of their view that our troubles with al-Qaida are all our fault, so if they do know about it, they say nothing.

Another example is the plight of Amanda Knox, who has been imprisoned in Italy for many months despite not having been convicted of a crime. To make her plight known would educate Americans on how Europe isn't as progressive as leftists make it seem.

But the most damning evidence of the screwball leftist prism is their attitude towards Muslims, especially the regime in Iran. That regime butchered many leftists and has the usual sins of Muslims (namely, sexism and homophobia) but curiously, leftists cannot bring themselves to condemn it, because it's anti-American.

No, leftists and idealists do not see the world through the prism of right and wrong.

Michael:
Good article and right on the dot

The Socialist Party are real good at spinning words to avoid losing a few voters.
They can and do use their allies in the MSM to assist them in that effort and America be damned.

They, like the socialist posters here are cowards and hide behind pcs and tv studios.

Test
Capitalism/Communism+Socialism. Ask someone which side they are on Russia or Georgia. If Georgia then they are basically a capitalist and if Russia they believe either the basic tenants of communism or more probably socialism. It seriously is that simple. I've done this with countless people from all walks of life and it has told me their political leanings correctly every time. Unscientific results: Most conservative christians had capitalistic preferences in politics, liberal "christians" and all other cults tended toward socialism. The few non european immigrants I spoke to all had serious communist preferences (here's a request : why can't we import conservative, capitalist friendly immigrants?) and this concerned me as they were all here on work visas for a boat company and bragged about how they are voting for Obama because New London lets them vote even though they are not citizens! I was still trying to figure out what they were doing in a large "seeker friendly" christian church (I was visiting a friend for VBS - I attend a conservative Bible believing church) when they would have clearly been more at home in a mosque!

Will
It's fall and RCIA (right of Christian initiation of adults) will be starting up at your local Catholic church soon. The first 6 weeks or so are pure inquiry, where you can anonymously ask any questions. You may wish to consider attending, because you really are poorly informed regarding biblical teachings, morals and Christianity, as judging from your early am post.

Bible and thought
Well, this is one agnostic who won't read the Bible, yet still has moral clarity. I subscribe to black and white points of view on morality the majority of the time, without all of the stories in the Bible.

A difference
There is a HUGE difference between moral clarity (biblically) and moral relativism. Moral relativism allows each person to determine morals themselves and deem them right. Mans standard never cuts it alone.

Obama gets credit...
... for being a genuine pacifist in the Russo-Georgia spat. His response that "all sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability of Georgia" is exactly what one expects from someone who is a pacifist.

But that WASN'T how the other pacifists responded. On other lists, when the anti-war types were asked why they were silent, they eventually came out with a story of American culpability, as though "anti-war" means "America is guilty" rather than "all wars are bad."

So, I'll give Obama some credit on this one. At least he didn't blame America.

Not that I'd ever vote for him.

Gay conservative
And where do you think all this moral clarity came from?

Miep Gees
I am a great fan of Miep Gees, because I am of Dutch heritage. And, as a Mom, Grandmom and Great-grandmom, I try to always focus on strong, powerful women.

Meip Gees was a brave, noble woman who LIED over and over again to protect the Franks and others.

Learn from her, Mr. Medved, about absolutes.

Your politics fly directly into the fact of your precious Old Testament teaching. You would have forced Meip Gees to tell the truth, and, in the process, lost even more innocent lives?

My Pet goat
Wow. That was amazing.

MPG
Your reasoning, not MG's actions (lest you misunderstand). I'm sure no theologian in the last 2k yrs (or Medved for that matter) ever considered that aspect of it.

Oh Medved
Medved must be forgetting the time that I got him to admit, on the radio, that there is no such thing as a moral absolute. He argued, that there are, however, moral standards. To which I say, "So what. Criminal gangs have moral standards."

By the way, as a liberal, I have no problem making moral distinctions: Barack Obama is a honorable man running an honorable campaign for the presidency; John McCain is not.

Also, to see the danger of being an absolutist, as Medved seems to encourage, ask your self: Is it a good thing if Russia and Islamic extremists think of us as evil and them as good?

The fact is, all lines of distinction look solid on the surface, but when you move in for a closer look, a deeper look, you will inevitably find that the lines blur.

For example:

Here's how Steven Pinker describes the "moment" of conception in "The Blank Slate":

"Just as a microscope reveals that a straight edge is really ragged, research on human reproduction shows that the 'moment of conception' is not a moment at all. Sometimes several sperm penetrate the outer membrane of the egg, and it takes time for the egg to eject the extra chromosomes ... Even when a single sperm enters, its genes remain separate from those of the egg for a day or more, and it takes yet another day or so for the newly merged genome to control the cell. So the 'moment' of conception is in fact a span of twenty-four to forty-eight hours."

By the way, the censors at townhall seem to only allow me to make one comment a day, so I probably won't be able to respond to any responses.

Phylo out

Black/white always assumes we're white
"Republicans relish crisp black-and-white when drawing distinctions; “progressives” feel an incurable fondness for shades of gray."

The problem with Medved's thinking is that it literally can't SEE any shades of gray. I am a Republican conservative, and find the reductionist thinking of stark black/white, good/evil thinking on everything a sure sign of simplemindedness. I put on a blue shirt rather than a green shirt this morning not because blue is good and green evil. Some grays are darker, and others lighter, and that determines how we navigate the vast majority of life's questions.

Phylo...
I'm sure your arguements absolutely destroyed Medved.

But my issue with acclaimed moral relativists is the continuous malleability of their positions, based (largely it seems ) on convenience. We can always find counterexamples to absolutes, but they always would seem to be within an epsilon (as a mathematician would say) of the absolute.

osthode
to expand a little bit on your reply to Ex-pat in Geneva (home!) (Wrong Again) and for My Pet Goat, Mr. Medved would be the first to say the Nazi regime was evil at its heart. In fact, if you listen to his show, he's said as much many times. To fight this evil, lying would be an acceptable sin and would fall into the "absolute" of fighting the much greater evil of genocide. What matters here is that the absolute evil of the Nazi regime was fought with all the tools available, including lying to save human lives. Osthode has it correct; God knows the motivation for the lie and would forgive such because He knows the motivation for the sin was to fight the greater evil.

Oh, Phylo, please
I'm sure I've mentioned this to you before. A few years ago a conservative was bragging in the Wall Street Journal about he had flattened a moral relativist. The relativist in question was a lesbian who was a former nun, and when she asked the conservative for one moral absolute, he replied, "Thou shalt not rape." That shut her up. So, what do you say about this? Is it a moral absolute or not?

Keep in mind that there's a difference between saying that there are no moral absolutes and that there are moral absolutes but that they are often difficult to determine.

Will scribbled
"conservatives look for 'right and wrong, good and evil' because THEY'VE HAD THAT DAMNED BIBLE inculcated into their thick heads SINCE CHILDHOOD"--and, as usual, inserts both feet in mouth.

The following people are all examples of conservatives:
(1) Deepak Obhrai, Canadian MP (Calgary East)--Hindu born in Dar-es Salaam
(2) Wajid Khan, Canadian MP (Mississauga-Streetsville)--Muslim born in Lahore
(3) Rahim Jaffer, Canadian MP (Edmonton-Strathcona)--Muslim born in Kampala
(4) Narinder Kaur "Nina" Grewal, Canadian MP (Fleetwood-Port Kells)--Sikh born in Osaka
(5) Gurmant Grewal, Canadian MP (Newton-North Delta), Nina's husband--Sikh born in Ludhiana
(6) Murali Manohar Joshi, erstwhile Indian MP (Allahabad)--Hindu born in Delhi
(7) Manohar Joshi, member of Rajya Sabha, Hindu born in Maharashtra
(8) Fazalur Rehman, pro-Taliban ultra-Muslim cleric born in Dera Ismail Khan

All of these, except for Rehman hold degrees (first five LLB's, M.M. Joshi a PhD in astrophysics) and NONE were 'inculcated with Bible'--debunking groats such as will & kimbat.

Moral clarity has no absolutes...
Good and evil are far too subjective for absolutes.

Who are the 'good guys'? Those who entered a sovereign country at the request of its citizens, as Russia did when the South Ossetians protested Georgian actions, or the ones who invaded because of WMD and possible involvement in 9/1 based on lies and misinformation?

The Good Book advocates one liberal interest-Jesus advocated that we 'turn the other cheek'. Or are you really suggesting that Jesus would support a war rather that peace?

The ACLU doesn't 'hate' America, but it loves the U.S. Constitution, and defends it far better than conservatives. How better could we have proven to the world our belief than by extending its rights to even our enemies?

More than half the so-called 'anti-American' fanatics in Guantanamo were released because we couldn't prove that they were anything more than ignorant goatherds at the time of their capture and denied due process and the rule of law - although after torture and imprisonment I would guess that they are certainly anti-American now.

As for economic prosperity, there has been ample evidence over the ages that individual prosperity has seldom 'trickled down'. And championing the unfortunate was once a virtue, not a vice - Love thy brother... Do unto others...

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Is the Islamo-Nazi (a new word for me,and a seeming contradiction in terms) better than a Judeo/Christian-Nazi, with their absolute right and wrong. After all (forgive me) many German citizens considered themselves morally 'right' in persecuting Jews for being wrong about Christ, for all that Nazism was supposed to be secular and atheistic.

Be careful what you advocate, that you don't become what you hate.

Liberals and Moral Absolutes
Don't you feel sorry for liberals? Because they find the concept of absolute truth repugnant, they have no fixed standards of morality. So, to use a sailing metaphor, they are like ships being buffeted in a sea of moral ambiguity, unable to use the stars for navigation or anchor in any port. They are intellectually lost at sea with no hope of rescue. It's sad, really.

odd defense of the empty promise
What a simpleminded view of the world Medved suggests here. Do Democratic attempts to provide services to the poor really ignore the reality that poor people are bad and deserve to starve? That is the clear implication of Medved's article although he focuses on the other end of the spectrum. But presumably he focuses on the other end of the spectrum because the ideas he is supporting become obviously to stupid for even a child to accept if one looks at the other side.

This image of Reagan as standing for good at all costs seems to require forgetting his Lebanon fiasco. When push came to shove Reagan was much more of a realist than his supporters want to remember him as.

It is certainly true that of late Conservatives have wanted to understand the world at a junior high school level while Liberals (and smarter conservatives now on the outs with the republican party) have wanted to deal with reality instead.

But the picture of economics as one in which one side is guided by morality and the other is not is silly.

Medved applauds McCain for promising to stand with the Georgians. But McCain is not actually advocating standing with the Georgians. He is for promising to stand with them. What is the moral greatness of making empty promises? In Medved's world apparently it is the difference between good and evil. Good people make empty promises. Maybe in junior high that counts as sophisticated.

Valerie
240 years of the American Experiment has proved that economic prosperity...trickles down?...hell no, flows up. Millions of immigrants came to this country without a penny to their names and became prosperous and wealthy through, get ready, "hard WORK." Alistair Cooke's great BBC series AMERICA quoted an immigrant to this country as to what the greatest lesson he had learned was. Answer, "There's no such thing as a free lunch." Exactly. The great thing about the USA is, or was before the Left started dismantling and destroying it, nobody would stand in your way as you pushed to the top whereever you wanted to go. Only leftists expect the good things to "trickle down" to them. If you believe that you don't even understand your own country.

And the Nazis committed genocide against the Jews not because of their beliefs but because of their race. And would you seriously have counselled them to "turn the other cheek?"

You as a good Leftie, believing that "discrimination" in any form is bad, are incapable of making moral choices, except the one that says America is always evil and bad. And your bilge about the South Ossetians is just that. The Nazis and Communists always used excuses that they were "invited" in before they invaded. Many of your brethren in the USSR-loving Left couldn't even bring themselves to condemn the Soviet freedom-crushing actions in 1956 Hungary and 1968 Czechoslovakia. But I dare say they were "asked" to come in.

P.S. The ACLU did not protect Mr. Heller's 2nd Amendment right to protect himself and his family with a firearm in D.C. The ACLU seems to be strangely silent against the monstrous proposals on the Left to silence free speech with the Fairness Doctrine.

Liberals Rewriting history
To refresh your memory; The So called "invasion" of Iraq was AFTER they invaded Kuwait years ago. After trouncing Sadams first army; he agree to a cease fire (not a peace treaty). If the terms of that aggreement were broken we had the legal right to go all the way and depose him. He violated the terms of that agreement over 100 times before we took action.

But hey who are we to judge; Sadam was just misunderstood; or his mother did not love him enough; or (insert lib excuse).


As for bringing the bible into the argument; yes the it does support a righteous war. One comes to mind; the battle when an angel called Lucifer tried to usurp him. I dont recall and cheek turning there.


http://www.truthaboutiraq.org/index.php/Legality_Of_The_Ira q_War

Liberals and Absolutes
The only place Liberals have any use for ANYTHING Absolut is from a Bottle of Vodka.

Conservative Camouflage

Medved again takes way too long to state
the obvious. Blah Blah Blah. What a windbag.

Yes the liberal mindset is neck deep in moral relativism. They live in the gray. Nothing new.
Medved attempts to hide his RINOism though in a clum with many many words? He doesn't want any conservatives to see him for what he is.

The only thing the Saddlehump fiasco did was show that McCain is better at townhall style rhetoric than Obama. Not much of a feat really.

McCain said what conservatives wanted to hear. He wants to win after all, but it's just rhetoric. Lieberman is (or was) on the list for VEEP. Medved's obvious comparison of McCain to Reagan doesn't work either.

No matter how hard he tries though, Medved's RINO stench gives him away every time.

Plug your nose folks.





medved again
This article is so patently wrong about almost everything it says that it seems incredible that anyone would resopond to it except to tell others how wrong it is. unfortuunately there is not an iota of diference between the two candidates views on georgia. both were mistaken as is the author. Georgia invaded a country whose citizenship had not been decided, but whose choice, if they had been given one, would have been russian. if they had been given the choice in the prime exampkle in what the conservatives call a democracy in the former USSR. Russia retaliated. This speaks well for them, at least when compared to the absolute naked aggression we displayed in Iraq. , we are the nation that invaded a country, russia had little excuse but at least some. we had none, We have killed and wounded ten s of thousands of iraquis becauxde we were mistaken in what we thought was true , a child in 6th grade who did something that hurt another pupil even though he felt he was right about what had happened would be expelled. nothing will happen to Bush.and gang. nor to Medved , the author of this article, Why in the world anybody believe Medved about anything,when he once said on radio. "He saw nothing wrong with the president tinkering with the constitution if he felt it was necessary" good solid conservative thinking, huh?

I deal in moral absolutes
I am a conservative, and I deal in moral absolutes, and I will absolutely say that Medved is lying by omitting important truthes.

South Ossetia has voted overwhelmingly for independence, they prefer Russian rule to Georgian rule, the Georgians attacked first, and killed Russian peacekeepers.

Russia is doing exactly what Medved would call for if it were American soldiers killed. It's exactly what Medved called for when Israel bombed Lebanon into the stone age over a couple of captured soldiers. Russia is treating Georgia the same way we treated Serbia & Kosovo.

Medved's problem here is not that he is dealing in absolutes, the problem is that he is changing his absolutes depending on what nation he is speaking about.

Yes, Georgia is an ally, but ally or not, they acted imprudently and immorally. Russia is protecting their interests in a manner not disimilar to the way that America protects her interests.

Russia is no longer the Soviet Union. If we continue to meddle in their affairs, embarass them on a global scale, and immasculate them, they will become the Soviet Union once again. The Cold War is over. If we continue to act like we are still at war, that's exactly where we will find ourselves.

We punished the Germans severely after they were defeated in World War I, and it led to World War II. We failed to include Iraqis in reconstruction, and it led to the insurgency. We have already defeated the Soviet Union. If we do not start cooperating with the Russians now, we will turn them back into the enemy they once were.

JFP
""Thou shalt not rape." That shut her up. So, what do you say about this? Is it a moral absolute or not?"

I'd say yes. But it's notable that rape appears to be condoned in the bible.
“So, now kill every male among the little ones and every woman who has known man, lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” Moses - Numbers 31:18

See also Judges 19:23-4, where women are offered up as sexual objects to be raped by men. There’s another in Lot, and another in that Leviticus story about the two angels against the mob (”Don’t rape the angels, take our daughters instead…”)

When I asked Townhall collumnist and self-titled 'Christian apologist' Frank Turek about all this, he didn't try to argue that these don't condone rape. He instead told me "What is immoral for us is not necessarily immoral for God."

In other words, it's not a moral absolute, according to the bible. If God does it, or backs a human doing it, then it's OK. If RAPE is ok if God's on your side, then you can pretty much justify ANY sin if God's on your side.

At any rate, 'relativist lesbian nun' notwithstanding, I don't know of any liberals who claim there are no moral absolutes. Though I've come across loads of Christians who deny that it's possible for a non-Christian to have objective morality.

He has it half right
The left will equivicate and waffle on most issues.


But on their pet issues, gay right, abortion on demand.....etc.... they see only black and white.

AndyR
It's no good quoting the Bible at me since I'm not Christian. (I'm a deist.) Also, if you want to see a liberal who claims there are no absolutes, just read Phylo's post.

Liberals have absolutes
Only when the absolutes serve their liberals cause. For example, embryos moving in their mothers' wombs are not alive. Otherwise, it is indeed a "who are we to judge mentality." Who are we to say that the terrorists are really evil. Who are we to say that the Russians are evil.

Of course, liberals are quick to judge conservatives. Liberals are quick to accuse our troops of air raiding villages. Liberals are quick to say President Bush is evil. Liberals are quick to say that we can't waterboard terrorists.

mrbmrb
You call our going into Iraq "absolute naked aggresion." Why not read what Sean said? We ultimately acted in response to what Saddam Hussein did. And let me guess: you're not going to call his invasion of Kuwait "absolute naked aggression," are you? I didn't think so.

Hmmm
"But on their pet issues, gay right, abortion on demand.....etc.... they see only black and white."

So do the GOP on those issues, so what's the difference? Both sides think they're in the right - big surprise.

Lon
You charge conservatives with seeing the rest of the world at a junior-high level, while those to the left of center want to see the world as it really is. This is utter nonsense, as I pointed out in my first post (at 8:03). Liberals and leftists troll the news for items that show America to be the bad guy and ignore everything else.

Come on, Lon, be honest. You imply that liberals and leftists are well-informed about the rest of the world. So, what percentage of baby-boomer leftists have even heard of Manchester United? This is supposed to be the most famous team in the world, yet most of the liberals and leftists, despite their allegedly great knowledge of the rest of the world, have never even heard of it.

As to Democratic attempts to help the poor, this is counteracted by their attempts to hurt the poor. Lots of environmentalists want gas to cost nine bucks a gallon. How will that help the poor?

Whereas we used to have a party of the rich and a party of the poor, the reality today is that we have two very different parties of the rich. One party hurts the poor in certain ways, while the other party hurts the poor in quite different ways, by imposing goofy environmental costs, by being soft on crime, by ruining the public schools, and so on.

Face reality, ok?

some thoughts
JFP: Suppose a female terrorist new about a nuclear weapon set to explode. Would it be justified to rape her to get the information? I gather a lot of people think it would.


Shauna: "The policy of Russia is changeless. Its methods, its tactics, its maneuvers may change, but the polar star of its policy, world domination, is a fixed star."- Karl Marx

Valerie
You say that no Iraqi wanted us to enter Iraq. What about the Kurds? And what about Iraqi exiles?

It's amazing how people like you are so self-deluded. You think you know more about what's going on in the rest of the world, but you don't. As I've said on two different posts already, you basically see the world through an anti-American prism. Anything that fits that prism you use against America, and anything that doesn't fit you ignore or distort.

Pointless Conservative Blather
That about sums up this article. We are not all Georgians.

There is little or no difference in Obama's prescription for American behavior with respect to Georgia and Russia and the Bush administration. You can accuse Bush of many things, but being a moral relativist is not one of them. The only real difference between Obama's position and Bush is that Bush is currently the President and must act. We only have one President at a time. McCain and Obama can only talk.

Obama understands something that McCain fails to grasp. You cannot make empty threats in this world. Putin knew exactly how far he could press into Georgia and the limitations of the US and Europe in responding. Bush has learned that painfully over the last 7 and a half years.

There was no way Bush was going to militarily assist the Georgians. Putin knew that. Bush knew that however much he might want to, the correct strategy for the US here is not unilateral and requires diplomacy and alliances with Europe.

Obama knew this on day one.

McCain is rattling sabers he cannot and would not use if President. He is either pandering to fools like Medved or too naive to lead this country. In either case, it is clear for all to see that this incident proves McCain is unfit to be President.

housewar
Aparently lying is not one of the moral absolutes Medved praises. I doubt he cares little for the Georgia conflict and is only using that rhetoric to push for RINO McCain.
It's all a ruse.

Cheerios with Sugar Cubes.

WIKIPEDIA info about Georgean revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Revolution
The "Revolution of Roses" (often translated into English as the Rose Revolution) was a bloodless revolution in the country of Georgia in 2003 that displaced President Eduard Shevardnadze.
A significant source of funding for the Rose Revolution was the network of foundations and NGOs associated with American billionaire financier George Soros. The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies reports the case of a former Georgian parliamentarian who alleges that in the three months prior to the Rose Revolution, "Soros spent $42 million ramping-up for the overthrow of Shevardnadze." Speaking in Tblisi in June of 2005, Soros said, "I'm very pleased and proud of the work of the foundation in preparing Georgian society for what became a Rose Revolution, but the role of the foundation and my personal has been greatly exaggerated."

By the way, Phylo
You say Barack Obama is honorable. Ok, so he's left of center, which means leaning towards an egalitarian society, and he went to an elite school.

So, I just want to know what he thinks about the role of elite schools in an egalitarian society. Isn't it no role at all? Shouldn't they be dismantled? Do you think he will own up to this consequence of his views?

Wikipedia 2-nd info: Georgian cabinet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temur_Iakobashvili
Temur Iakobashvili (also transliterated as Temuri Yakobashvili) (born 1967) is a Georgian political scientist, diplomat and politician serving as State Minister for Reintegration since January 31, 2008.
Iakobashvili was born into a Georgian Jewish family in Tbilisi. He graduated from the Department of Physics at Tbilisi State University in 1984. He further attended Diplomatic Course at the universities of Oxford and Birmingham in the United Kingdom (1998), obtained the Yale University scholarship for the World Leaders’ Program (2002), and took international security courses at the John F. Kennedy School of Government in the United States (2003).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kezerashvili
Davit Kezerashvili (born September 22, 1978, i.e. as of now he is 29 years old) is the Georgian Minister of Defence. Kezerashvili was born in Tbilisi. He studied in Russia and Israel before studying law and international relations at Tbilisi State University.
Kezerashvili is a former Israeli and is fluent in Hebrew. After working in the Justice Ministry he became an assistant to Mikhail Saakashvili. Saakashvili helped him become chief of the Tbilisi City Council. On November 11, 2006 he was appointed as Georgian Defense Minister, replacing Irakli Okruashvili. Shalva Natelashvili of the Georgian Labour Party criticized Kezerashvili's appointment, arguing that he "has never served in the army... doesn't even have the title of sergeant and has no clue about the armed forces."

Sailer: do we need young NATO partner ?
Steve Sailer (http://isteve.com ) poses the question, which I reproduce here: should USA really be in a hurry to pull such a young defense minister (29 years old) into NATO ?

JFP
"Ok, so he's left of center"

Who says? He might be bang in the middle. You lot are far right!

sjpatejak
It was the feminists who espoused the view of rape as absolutely morally wrong. Why not try your counter-example on them? I wasn't proposing that it was, but was merely pointing out that some people who say they are relativists really aren't.

As to the counter-example itself, go read what soliton said above: "We can always find counterexamples to absolutes, but they always would seem to be within an epsilon (as a mathematician would say) of the absolute."

Florida resident writes:
Subject: Sailer: do we need young NATO partner ?
Steve Sailer (http://isteve.com ) poses the question, which I reproduce here: should USA really be in a hurry to pull such a young defense minister (29 years old) into NATO ?

Should the USA really be in a hurry to put a young, inexperienced, and untested man into the White House?

JFP
"people who say they are relativists"

Who says "I am a relativist"? It's almost used pejoratively. I don't know anyone who applies the label to themselves.

Paul ans Wes
By your logic then, it would have been perfectly acceptable for British forces to invade the United States for its "aggression" when they invaded seceding States during the Civil War. (The peninsular, and Red River campaigns, New Orleans, Vicksburg, etc...) The breakaway provinces in question here certainly constitute an active insurrection against the sovereignty of the republic of Georgia, in my studied opinion. Neither Russia, nor the United States has any business interfering. Of course, this has not stopped countries (including the US) from doing just that.

JFP #19
Wrong.

The entire rationale, premise, raison d'etre, for communism was was to liberate the exploited working classes by those evil owners of the means of production.

It was extremely idealistic in that once all class distinctions were obliterated, and the bourgeoise and owners of production were removed, this classless society would ensure that all peoples equally shared in society's goods and services. No more exploitation.

You simply are wrong on this point.

Most of the leftist political philosphies are predicated upon a utopian and idealistic naivete regarding human nature.

Unlike some confused "righties", I don't regard Osama and the Democrats as communists or Marxists, but the principle values they embrace on more equitable redistribution of resources do embody an idealism in wanting to restructure society as to remove want and deprivation.

Insofar as foreign affairs are concerned, leftist idealism is the exact opposite of pragmatic conservatism.

how typical of the left.
seeking to accommodate others always ends up making the situation worse.

I would suggest that if anything americas response to problems has been far too measured and mostly inadequate for the problem at hand.

Kosovo proves the dims are clueless in confronting evil, but since the left can't recognize evil they have no desire to help as long as the problem is far away in some third world toilet.

But as bubba proved he lacked the courage to intervene in the bloody massacre in ruanda and hundreds of thousands died.

But then looking to the un who also failed in ruanda and the african union to resolve darfur has proven to be equally useless.

Perhaps what is needed is a world police force comprised of soldiers from the democratic countries who with a smaller mobile force can step into the ruanda's and the darfur's and stop the aggressors who are brutalizing and killing the helpless.

But the left fails to understand that force not words stops thugs. Their messiah believes his presence alone will make the world a better and safer place. That is pure delusion but the left rallies behind this notion as if talk and reason ever solved armed conflicts or saved victims from being butchered by aggressive thugs.

and here comes
..the inevitable Hitler comparison. Way to go. Well thought out piece of crap Valerie, but at the end of the day its still just crap.

Misinterpreting scripture doesn't make you smart either. However your not too bad at the lefty bumper-sticker, moral relativist, garbage. Nothing new your saying here darlin...

We'll be waiting for the day when you grow beyond your adolescent view of the world, and when you do, you'll wake up to conservatism like everyone else does.

Dave2
I am not one of those democrat "leftists", but I have to ask what you mean by "Kosovo proves dims are clueless when confronting evil?"

It was a Democratic administration that got us into the Kosovo war.

It was the obsessive hatred by Madeleine Albright toward the Serbs that duped a clueless Clinton to bomb Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanians who wanted to wrest Kosovo from Serbia.

These Christian Serbs we bombed(on behalf of Muslim Kosovars)were the sons and grandsons of Serbs who at great risk to their lives protected U.S. pilots who were shot down over Nazi occupied Europe in WW2.

And this is how we showed our gratitude.

That war was a disgrace. We should never have gotten involved.

Clinton's ONLY redeeming quality was his good judgment in not deploying American ground troops there.


jerabaub
Redistribution of society...

Don't you find it ominous now that capitalism is slowly being replaced with corporatism, that the redistribution of wealth is going primarily in one direction... in the direction of the ever-merging international corporations? Exxon, Pfizer, Citicorp, Viacom; the U.S. is going to see an increasingly wider and wider gap in wealth as the middle class moves to a lower-middle class status and companies like Exxon, already hauling in almost 13 billion dollars profit FROM A SINGLE QUARTER, start taking over more of America's natural resources (offshore drilling, possible ANWR drilling, wind and solar, etc.)

If government worked better, these natural resorces should be NATIONALIZED, never privatized. International corporations (who have no alligiance to any one particular country) should not be allowed to exploit a country's national resources (oil, coal, gold, etc), taking profits that should remain in the U.S. (or wherever) elsewhere.

Manichean Thinking
I strongly recommend Glenn Greenwald's book, "A Tragic Legacy:How a Good vs. Evil Mentality Destroyed the Bush Presidency."

The term Manichean refers to the mental state that divides the world into two neatly defined camps, one good and one evil. The conservative mentality does indeed fall along that line. But there are serious, real problems with seeing the world that way.

For one thing, almost nothing in the world actually works like that. Conversely, almost everything in the world is a mixture of good and bad. Almost every issue of contention exists in a grey area. If you want to deal with reality you have to accept that, or the likelihood is you will make things worse.

The second problem with a Manichean mindset is that it forces people to classify relatively minor issues of contention as either GOOD or EVIL, when in fact they simply aren't either one. COnservatives have a terrible problem with this: anyone who disagrees with them becomes, ipso facto, EVIL. Becomes the ENEMY! And, when dealing with pure evil, what travesty can't be justified?

People who have a scientific view of the wrold that embraces evolution become EVIL. Science, if it doesn't confirm conservative prejudice, becomes EVIL. The idea of something just being different gets lost, because everything is either good or EVIL.

And the third big problem with Manichean thinking is that it almost surely pollutes human deicsion making. Sooner or later, the things we like, want or support become Good, no matter what. And things we don't, become evil. People end up justifying injustice, unfairness, cruelty and a host of other terrible things in the name of the Good or in the process of fighting EVIL.

Medved is right about the differences between conservatives and liberals. But the ultimate conclusion is that conservatives are a bit on the crazy side.

Liberals believe in moral absolutes --
they inflict them on their political opponents all the time. If a Republican lies, it's (gasp) utterly unacceptable and he must resign and face trial.

If Sen. Obama, or Pres. Clinton, or Sen. Clinton, or Sen. Pelosi, or Sen. Gore, or Sen. Byrd, or Sen. Kennedy lie, it's apparently fine. No angry front-page demands from liberals for resignation or redress or legal action, just excuses and obfuscations.

And that is observable fact. Please just ONE of you refer back to a post on ANY board in which you expressed outrage at lies told by ANY Democrat figure.

I'll check back.

AndyR
I don't know anyone here who is far right. That is reserved for people like Osama bin Laden, Ahmedinejad, etc., who want to drag us back to the 7th century. The conservatives here at TownHall merely want us to go back to the 1950s. There's a big difference.

jerabaub
if you go to war to fight to rid the world of some killing dictator and you have the best military then go in get the job done and return the country to it's citizens.

While kosovo was a huge mistake totally based on maddy halfbright's lack of understanding of the situation and misrepresentation of why we needed to get involved.

But electing to fight from 20,000 feet didn't get the job done. bubba was clueless and we are still in a morass we should have never got involved unless we were a small part of nato which was the force that should have been running the mission

will
Unlike some who labor under the illusion they are "conservatives", I think you raise valid points on the destructive effects of corporate globalism, and its impact on the American worker.

Nationalization of the resources is thing. I would need to study it more before hazarding an opinion.

But nationalization of corporations is something I would not favor.

But at the very least, any and all tax benefits accruing to an American corporation moving its operations overseas should be stopped.


To will
"If government worked better, these natural resorces should be NATIONALIZED"

Unfortunately, the history of our federal government doesn't inspire sufficient confidence to convince people to do this.

FEMA.
IRS.
BATF.
FBI.
CIA.
VA.

Feel free to name more agencies which have had embarassing catastrophes in recent years.

Take a careful look at how immensely successful government agencies are at managing resources and making decisions in Canada (16 week waiting lists for CAT scans), Germany (bribing Turkish immigrants to go home when they get older, so they don't draw on the welfare system they paid into for years), France (GENIUS handling of their Muslim population), Britain (head-in-the-sand do nothing approach to home-grown Islamist terrorists).

There are severe limits to the average level of efficiency, sincerity and empathy of any large bureaucratic organization. And that limit is invariably reached JUST SHORT of where you'd like it to be if that organiztion were making your health care and day-to-day energy choices.


JFP
"I don't know anyone here who is far right."

Fair enough. We can argue all day about who's in the middle and who is an extremist. It varies from nation to nation anyway - Thatcher was the darling of the Right, but she tightened UK gun laws and never denationalized the British health service.

I don't see any reason that Obama should say Private schools should be abolised in order to make him consistent. You could describe me as a lefty but I had an expensive education (not that I had a choice). This took pressure off the state: one less person in the schools paid for by your taxes.

If Obama was saying that these schools should be abolished, THEN you could say he was further left. But he doesn't, so you can't.

jerabaub
I thought we were talking about how leftists today in America see the rest of the world.

But since you bring up communism, let's talk about it. The exploited workers wouldn't have had good lives, even if they hadn't been exploited by factory owners. What were their other options in life? The fact that so many were willing to be exploited shows what few other options they had. Yes, the factory owners probably could have done more for them, but one could say that about the rest of society, too. So why pick on them exclusively?

As for the owners being evil, I've seen leftists at the top of academia who are just as heartless. There's a jobs crisis in academia these days and lots of us are unemployed, but how much have leftists at the top done to change the situation? Nothing. They won't even write about it. They'd rather bash Bush than handle problems in their own back yard.

As for redistribution of resources, there are lots of leftist professors who believe in that. I invite you to name just one such professor who also believes that resources WITHIN academia should be redistributed. For example, name just one leftist academic who thinks that grant money that they get should be redistributed. I know of none.

They are phonies.

JFK
You write: "The conservatives here at TownHall merely want us to go back to the 1950s"

I agree with this. They want us back in a time when women stayed in the kitchen and them uppity black folk had their own drinking fountains.

I am just glad somebody admits it.

Jack
If your understanding of Manichean thinking is correct, then I agree with you.

I think you are the person who was so smitten with Michael Scheuer's "Marching Toward Hell", which I also read and also found compelling.

Some people today who claim to be conservative do have a tendency to portray those with whom they disagree as "evil".

To me, that is not conservatism at all.

That is a perversion of conservatism.

Most things in life are far more complicated than simply being all good or all bad.

And I suspect that if and when ultimate evil does present itself to some who like to label themselves as conservatives, they won't even recognize it as such.

Such is its sophistication and allure.

JFP
I never said I believed in these things.

Only that it was part of the communist ideology.

You make my point that communism is a leftist ideology when asserting that leftist professors on college campuses do believe in redistribution.

Communism's entire premise is based on inevitable exploitation of the worker finally manifesting itself in a violent overthrow of the existing order, to be replaced with one in which all members of society equally share in its resources.

I did not say I believed in it.

Jack
I'm JFP and not JFK! However:

1. I'm actually a leftist. So I don't know to what extent the actual conservatives would agree with my characterization of them.
2. Where I lived, everyone drank out of the same drinking fountains.
3. However bad women were treated back in the 1950s, it is nothing compared to how they will be treated when shari'a is imposed on us. Are you willing to admit that?

jerabaub
"You make my point that communism is a leftist ideology...." Did I deny this? I merely argued that the leftist response to the exploitation of the workers was not the most intelligent response.

Plus, I don't know how we got onto communism anyway. You were the one who brought up that subject.

JFP
You ask "However bad women were treated back in the 1950s, it is nothing compared to how they will be treated when shari'a is imposed on us. Are you willing to admit that?"

Your question isn't phrased adequately. If you had written, "it is nothing compared to how they WOULD be treated IF shari'a WERE TO BE imposed on us. Are you willing to admit that?", I would agree. But given that there is literally zero chance of Sharia law ever being imposed on the US, the answer to your question is actually, "no."

jb

You are correct. The allure of the great battle between GOOD and EVIL ensnares a lot of people. It's very heady to think that one's beliefs and efforts are all on behalf of some greater GOOD. I forget who said that "conservatism is engaged in the oldest of all efforts, and that is making a moral good out of pure self interest." and I am way loosely paraphrasing.

What if?
"the Good Book reports no liberal interest groups of antiquity who insisted on defending the civil rights of Philistines or Amalekites"

Long ago, MAD Magazine did a satirical article on "Protest Campaigns That Fortunately Never Happened."

In one of them, in Biblical times, as David was getting ready to take on Goliath with his slingshot, the Hebrew peacenik protesters demanded unilateral disarmament by David because of the risk of "pebble fall-out".

Hapless Democrat Politicians
I have a suggestion for these professional, political parasites on the other side of the isle called Democrats. Yes, the people who do nothing but whine and lie. Every time I see or hear one of these hapless Democrats they are whining about something or blaming someone else for their problems.

Just round up the homeless, the poor, the uneducated and the uneducated teachers included. The uninsured also need your help, the illegal aliens, the communist union leaders (if the secret ballot is squashed) and all other minorities in our country who are on welfare and hurting. You can form another political party and leave the Democrat party alone. You can name it "The Socialist Party of America". Obama would enjoy being your very first Socialist Party candidate.

Obama was at Howard University encouraging students to think differently about socialism in America he asked, "Are we willing to make the investments in genuine, equal opportunity in this country?" He says, "People aren't looking for charity. We talk about welfare and we talk about poverty, but what people really want is fairness. They want people paying their fair share of taxes. They want that money allocated fairly."

There is already a system in place full of very, very rich Socialist thinking people who will give you all the money you will ever need. I am talking about rich, wealthy people! You will never need to fleece the government anymore.

Those Democrats and Republicans in the Senate and Congress who are not Socialist can get down to business and get our economy on track, drill for oil, shale oil and gas anywhere. Pay off the deficit, build the double fence on the Mexican border and abolish the Department of Education. REFORM the IRS, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and enforce our Immigration laws.

The Bad Guys
The Georgians in South Osettia were attacked by Russian militias who are nothing but thugs who fight for pay from the highest bidder. The highest bidder is Russia. Putin's pawns.

The Georgian Army was trying to protect their citizens and repel the Russian thugs from Georgia.

The whole Russian Army and Navy was waiting for the first shot to be fired by the Georgians and began to systematically obliterate the infrastructure of Georgia, their Navy and killed or imprisoned innocent Georgians.

The President of Georgia is not a fool. He does not have the power or resources to engage in war with anybody, especially Russia.

He knows what Putin wants to do to all the people who left the former Soviet Union for independence...make them pay!!

Jack - sharia law
"Are you willing to admit that?", I would agree. But given that there is literally zero chance of Sharia law ever being imposed on the US, the answer to your question is actually, "no." "

You should pay more attention to events transpiring in the UK. Zero chance of Sharia in the US...? Don't proclaim an emphatic "no" so soon..

USNbubblehead
Although the British did not invade the US during our Civil War, there was a dominant group of foreigners involved in the war. As the Southern states left the Union one after another in the spring of 1861, the governor of Missouri tried to bring his state to the aid of their Southern brothers. Federal forces under General Nathaniel Lyon and Franz Sigel (a German exile) formed five nearly all-German regiments in St. Louis to keep Missouri in the Union. Some them were German-Americans, but many were Germans who were not American citizens--at least not at the time of the war. Many of those Germans had fought under Sigel back in Germany during the revolution of 1848.

AndyR
"I don't see any reason that Obama should say Private schools should be abolised in order to make him consistent.... If Obama was saying that these schools should be abolished, THEN you could say he was further left. But he doesn't, so you can't."

Fair enough. But there are some concerns about these schools that ought to worry anyone who is left of center. For the last 24 years, Democrats have nominated candidates who went to elite schools. Why? Are we back in the 18th century when it was thought that the masses just weren't good enough?

Also, the push for diversity in terms of race and gender BUT not class has helped a lot of wealthy women and blacks. But lots of poor people have been left out. In the last couple years, leftists have noticed this and have tried to get more poor people into places like Harvard, which is fine as far as it goes. But there just aren't enough slots at these schools for all the deserving poor people. Plus, what about those of us who have already graduated from lesser schools? Don't we get a shot at the good jobs?

Dan
I am perfectly confident that the US will never operate under Sharia law. 1000%.

Those who se the Sharia bogey man under the bed are just paranoid.

Moral Aptitude
MPG (reply #27)
Meip Gees was a brave soul indeed ... she definitely made a personal moral judgement to lie, for the good of mankind.
Moral decisions should not be hard for individuals to make, if the individual has established their own 'Moral Aptitude'. The problem escalates when our moral aptitudes are in conflict with one another.
There are basically three types of morality:
1)Universal Morality, which is imposed upon us by a Creator, and therefore identical for everyone.
2)External Morality, which is imposed upon us by an outside source, such as society, and identical to all within the affected group.
3)Internal Morality, which is imposed upon us by ourselves, and is unique to a person.

Of these three, the only one that truly "works," in the long run, is the third. When morality is imposed upon us by society (or "the majority"), there will always be those who bristle under the definitions. The same holds true for morality imposed by a Creator, for (obviously) 100% of the populace will never agree upon that Creator and his/her/its edicts. But when morality is imposed upon us by ourselves, we never question it, right? Wrong. We do question it. We constantly re-evaluate, constantly grow. We are free to improve it over time, because it is our own. It's the only moral code that is not static and lifeless.

John McCain has had a long time to establish his own "Moral Aptitude" and was able to respond to the saddleback questions decissively.

Republican Responses to war
" But before we get deeper embroiled into this Balkan quagmire, I think that an assessment has to be made of the Kosovo policy so far. President Clinton has never
explained to the American people why he was involving the U.S. military in a civil war in a sovereign
nation, .."

Tom Delay

Senator James Inhofe (R-OK): “(P)resident [Clinton] has decimated our ability to defend ourselves.”

Senator Judd Gregg (R-NH): “I don’t believe that a ground war in Kosovo using American troops is
going to be very successful.” [NBC, “Meet the Press,” 4/18/99]

Representative Randy “Duke” Cunningham (R-CA): “This is the most inept foreign policy in the
history of the United States.” [Washington Times, 4/29/99]

Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN): “This is President Clinton’s war, and when he falls flat on his face,
that’s his problem.” [New York Times, 5/4/99]


There's much more
"? May 4, 1999 -- The Scotsman reported, “The Senate majority leader, Trent Lott, said at the weekend:
‘I think that, as Jesse Jackson would say, give peace a chance here. There seems to be some
momentum. There seems to be an opportunity - we should seize this moment. As a matter of fact,
you know, I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning. I didn't think we had
done enough in the diplomatic area.’” [Scotsman, 5/4/99, emphasis added]


JFP
"Democrats have nominated candidates who went to elite schools. Why? Are we back in the 18th century when it was thought that the masses just weren't good enough?"

It's quite rare for someone to get the White House without having enjoyed a lot of advantages in life. As a separate point, it's flat out impossible to run without hundreds of millions of dollars backing you up. Bush Jr is hardly an example of someone 'coming from nowhere' - his dad was POTUS before him!

It's not Obama's fault that he went to a nice school. He benefitted from a good education - why should that count against him? He still had humble origins - his dad was a goat herder!

Teach Them To Fish
That is ONE way of looking at morality. I suggest that Stanley Kohlberg's Developmental Moral Psychology is a more useful tool. Interesting that in both schema, the final morality is an internal structure that is constantly being debated and revised.

Andy and JFP
ACtually, if you look at the data over a much longer period you would see that Harvard, Princeton and Yale have produced a very high percentage of not only Presidents, of all elected national officials. And that doesn't include the appointees to major cabinet posts and the candiates for all offices who were not elected.

Jerome Karabel from Berkely wrote a book about it.

osthode - Est ist alle gut!
Very true. Right or wrong, this was acceptable to the Lincoln administration as he considered secessionists to be in a state of insurrection against their rightful government. Also, these troops ("I fights mit Sigel!") operated under direct federal authority, and not at the direct behest of a foreign government. In other words, France, for example, did not send troops to invade Virginia, which would constitute a military intervention by a foreign power on the side of the US, which would be improper, in my opinion. Russia, on the other hand, DID invade Georgia to bolster the aforementioned breakaway provinces and they did so in a blatantly overt way. I do not believe they have the right to do this. Conversely Georgia has every right to subdue an insurgency. Considering America's own history (our own insurrection against Britain in 1775, and the Civil War of 1861 - 1865) one could say we are contradicting ourselves whatever position we chose. It can also be said that the Civil War resolved the question of a state's or province's right to secede (there is none)and that only victory in war legitimizes the independence of such a nation.

two weeks ago
just think two weeks ago you could have resd every article and every e mail letter to any of those articles and you wouldnt have even seen the words russian agression or georgia, or communist aggression. once in a while some idiot would claim that obama, and once or twice even mccain was a communist but that was it. now like cockroaches when the lights go out everybody is an expert on communist agression, georgian democracy the evil putain how much more moral our aggression is then russias,. where have you all been hiding. we could habve used your profound knowledge about all these things a day or so before it happened. bet i can give 90 per cent of them a blank map of eastern europe and they would miss finding georgis on an average of 1000 miles. they might even miss russia by 500. now every body is an expert. must have really crammed

no courage among bloggers
this is abklout the fourth time ive told people about medved and his " tinkering with the constitution." nobody ever comments about it. what =, do you all just agree with him. or disagreea and feel it would betray one of your heroes.

Here is why "moral clarity" and
"moral absolutes" are RELATIVE.


Being born in the United States in the 20th century predisposes one to think in a certain way, predisposes one to adopt a certain set of religious and political and economic beliefs (the large majority define themselves as some type of "christian", say...one tends to be either republican, democrat or "independent"....the GOODNESS of Milton Friedman-style capitalism is rarely challenged or debunked, though most believe that capitalism mixed with a small to moderate degree of socialism generally works best).


Now. Let's all imagine ourselves being born in Beijing, China or Bangladesh or...FRANCE!

Let's imagine ourselves having been born in ancient Greece during the day of Plato. Or in Italy sometime during the 13th century, the height of the Middle Ages. There are hundreds of thousands of years of human history. Let's imagine ourselves transplanted into many of them. Europe's 17th Century Age of Reason or 18th Century Enlightenment. The Bronze Age.


The truth is we are all, largely, a product of our time and place. Morality is a relative term, a fluid term, in this context. Moral absolutes is a useless idea to apply to the sweep of history. Evangelical christians today would probably not even be christian were they born in the Middle East a hundred years ago (or today).


Hapless Democrat Politicians
I have a suggestion for these professional, political parasites on the other side of the isle called Democrats. Yes, the people who do nothing but whine and lie. Every time I see or hear one of these hapless Democrats they are whining about something or blaming someone else for their problems.

Just round up the homeless, the poor, the uneducated and the uneducated teachers included. The uninsured also need your help, the illegal aliens, the communist union leaders (if the secret ballot is squashed) and all other minorities in our country who are on welfare and hurting. You can form another political party and leave the Democrat party alone. You can name it "The Socialist Party of America". Obama would enjoy being your very first Socialist Party candidate.

Obama was at Howard University encouraging students to think differently about socialism in America he asked, "Are we willing to make the investments in genuine, equal opportunity in this country?" He says, "People aren't looking for charity. We talk about welfare and we talk about poverty, but what people really want is fairness. They want people paying their fair share of taxes. They want that money allocated fairly."

There is already a system in place full of very, very rich Socialist thinking people who will give you all the money you will ever need. I am talking about rich, wealthy people! You will never need to fleece the government anymore.

Those Democrats and Republicans in the Senate and Congress who are not Socialist can get down to business and get our economy on track, drill for oil, shale oil and gas anywhere. Pay off the deficit, build the double fence on the Mexican border and abolish the Department of Education. REFORM the IRS, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and enforce our Immigration laws.

mrbmrb
Medved otherwise known as Meddie Vedder for those on the Northwest coast, is all talk and no walk. He is full of hot air mostly, repeating old conservative viewpoints and tries to tie them somehow to the McCain camp. Most feel he should stick to B movie reviews.

Even the conversation here has ignored Medved's constipated grin and his entire clum and moved on to better discussions. Few have fallen for his rhetoric.

I like Mike
But I also admire and respect Gorbachov, an undisputed catalyst in the peaceful fall of the Soviets.

Either Gorbachev has character or he does not--to use the model Mike is proposing, the model of absolutes (and my real hero, here, is our Holy Father).

Did you hear, Mike, what Gorbachev had to say today? Did you happen to Gorbachev in the U.S. Congress in 1992? Or at Hofsra University in 2003 or so?

Did you read what Gorbachev had to say today about our treatment of Russia?

You know, Pat Buchanan is making more sense, and Mike is making less sense in these dangerous times. We're all patriots here. The question is how to be smart in these exceedingly dangerous times.

Mike, we can plan for the long haul or for the short term.

Mike, What is your choice?


Can somebody tell me?

Did the Soviet Union truly "fall" under Ronald Reagan? What, today, is meant when people say it "declined" and "fell"?

Maybe some revisionist history is now called for (in the wake of Georgia). Apparently the monster didn't "fall" at all. The bear was merely hybernating, and has now awaken from a slumber.

Jack and Andy
You guys are left of center, yet you are content with the status quo. That's why I now vote Republican, even though I consider myself a leftist.

And by the way, when I was younger, Democrats nominated people like Lyndon Johnson and Walter Mondale, who hadn't gone to very elite schools. And Richard Nixon nominated as Supreme Court Justice who went to the obscure William Mitchell School of Law.

Medved does not know the difference
between morally clear and morally simplistic.

Western Bondbeam
Meddie Vedder?

That's a riot, I hadn't heard that.

I'm not sure if Medved is as intellectually childish (and child-like) in real life as he sounds on the radio, it's hard to imagine he could be on the air 15 hours a week if he were not.

Most people acheieve the developmental task of realizing that the world is not evenly divided between supermen and jokers. It generally happens around the age of 12 or 13. ^The idea that everything is divided into clear camps of good or evil is puerile and a sign of developmental delay.

The Aid to Russia Alliance
“Why do conservatives and liberals respond so differently to the current war in Georgia?”

Perhaps not.

I have read posts here at Townhall.com by some conservatives who blame the West and Georgia for having provoked Russia. These conservatives talk incessantly about the necessity of accepting and respecting Russia’s sphere of influence.

Liberals believe that it all boils down to “an unfortunate break between rivals of more or less comparable guilt and legitimacy.” In other words, there is no right or wrong and we should attempt to understand the other side’s position so that we might arrive at a mutually beneficial solution. We should not be so quick to profess the moral superiority of our position over theirs.

Of course both sides have very different rationales and motives behind their arguments and desire radically different end results.

Yet in the end, both positions aid and abet Putin’s imperialistic Russia.

bookfiend
Medved is a pretender. Just like McCain using Saddlebutt to sing conservative tunes Medved uses his medium to present his agenda (which is get McCain elected)

How long can McCain keep singing in tune though is up in the air. Amnesty, cap and trade etc.

A Excuse for Everything
Your article should be required reading for everyone. It's particularly disturbing when one looks at the contortions they go through to defend the indefensible. It's positively Orwellian. A case in point is Bill Ayers.

http://blog.topicaltopics.net/2008/08/obamatrons-and-bill-a yers/

http://blog.topicaltopics.net/2008/08/who-is-bill-ayers-and -why-does-he-matter/

Street crime?
You ~do realize~ Obama meant Wall street?

5*

Way down south
Curious, that the fact that Saakashvili is as liberal as they come doesn't seem to deter you in this case. He and his closest government are all ex-students from Columbia, the University of Chicago, Yale, left-wing intellectuals who only interrupted their education here when the 1990 rebellion broke out in Southern Ossetia , who wanted to ally with Northern Ossetia to become an independent country, and Georian troops executed a massacre in retaliation.

You don't even know who it is you are actually against.

Western Bondbeam
I think you're right.

Well, Medved obviously has no shortage of awed sycophants like Andy, who has no shortage of right-wing websites, apparently.

The last time I listened to Medved, two callers suggested that Obama was the "anti-Christ". One caller got that idea from reading one of the Swept Away books, which he apparently did not realize was fiction.

Well, you have to give Medved and Obama one thing: they definitely understand their audience, and don't overestimate their collective intelligence.

bookfiend wrote,
“You don't even know who it is you are actually against.”

My post clearly indicates who I am for and against.

I thought that moral relativists were nuanced thinkers.

Medved's silliness
Medved says speaking of Obama:
"His examples of evil – Darfur, street crime and child abuse in America – pointedly excluded the transcendent depravity of Islamo-Nazi terror,"

Whatever Obama says, its wrong, even when what he says would seem to agree with Medved. So I guess those things should be taken off the list of evil? Was the question, "Obama, please give us an exhaustive list of what you consider to be evil"? (No, it wasn't)

And of course, Medved is counting on his audience to be ignorant of the fact that the atrocities in Darfur are being sponsored by the Arab-Islamic rulers of northern Sudan.

I won't honor Medved's silliness by calling them the non-sensical "Islamo-Nazis".

From TPM
The big concern with a McCain presidency - a concern which I am surprised has not been vocalized more fully - is that the U.S. will lurch from crisis to crisis, confrontation to confrontation, whether it be with Iran, North Korea, Russia, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. The danger is that McCain's pundit-like rhetoric will entrap the U.S. in descending spiral of foreign policy brinksmanship. Just think about the very likely scenario of McCain giving Iran/Russia a rhetorical ultimatum and Iran/Russia ignoring it. Now we are stuck - either we lose face by not following through on our threats or we follow through and go to war. We can't afford such a reckless approach after the last eight years. For the next eight we need a president not a pundit.
Read the whole post.

For anyone who had eyes to see, Georgia was a perfect illustration of this. He totally flew off the handle, ramping the situation up dramatically with his unstable rhetoric.

Sheldon, Medved appeals to people who think that Obama is an "anti-Christ". They believe this from reading the "Swept Away" books, which they don't seem to understand are pure fiction.

The said fact is, you can make anybody believe anything, so long as you play to their ignorance and washes of emotion, which generally substitute for thought.


sheldon
then what do you call these haters and killers who use their so called religion but closer to a blood cult to justify their butchering of those they kill.

It is reported that mein kamp is the second best selling book in the m/e and the muslims were great admirers of hitler and the nazi's.

You seem to lack any understanding of who these haters truly are

Jerabaub.....You Really Nailed It !

Its unfortunate but you are one of the few who has a clue about this tangeled web of deceipt being woven by the Neocons like Medved.

NEOCON AND LIBERALS SHARE BLAME !!
"From the Balkans to the site of ancient Babylon, our interventionist policies have set us up for confrontations with groups and nations that seek to stem U.S. hegemony, principally Russia and Iran. We are, it seems, presently engaged in a two-front "civilizational" conflict: with the Slavic world, in central and eastern Europe, as well as in the rest of Russia's "near abroad"; and with Sunni insurgents and Shi'ite Iranians, i.e., a good deal of the Islamic world.

How did we get to this point? The grand convergence of Left and Right interventionists during the Clinton years led directly to what Gen. William E. Odom has described as the biggest strategic disaster in American military history. As Jacob Heilbrunn puts it in They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Neocons:

"As [Lawrence F.] Kaplan and Kristol depicted it in their [2003] book [The War Over Iraq], the main issue that should unite the liberal and conservative hawks was the belief that American power, which had liberated the Balkans from Serbian aggression, should be redeployed against Iraq. Once again, morality was the key as well as the putative link between Osama and Saddam."

"Such bellicose rhetoric," Heilbrunn points out, "was adopted by numerous liberal hawks, including Paul Berman." Such militancy wasn't confined to a few left-liberal intellectuals who suddenly imagined themselves as their generation's version of George Orwell. It also infected the mindset of more than one liberal politician, e.g., Hillary Clinton, whose pro-war rhetoric at the time of the invasion, as well as her vote to authorize the strike, reflected the new bellicosity on the Left. It was Hillary, you'll recall, whose pressure on her husband to do something about the alleged "genocide" was the decisive factor in launching the bombing campaign against Serbia."


NEOCON AND LIBERALS SHARE BLAME !! (2)
"The neoconservatives often get the whole of the blame for the unfolding disaster in Iraq, but the reality is that they couldn't have pulled it off all by themselves: they needed, sought, and got the support of the liberals.

Have liberals learned their lesson? Not if calls for intervention in Darfur or Kenya can be taken seriously. Iran and Pakistan loom large as potential sites of future U.S. military action, but I doubt whether we can count on opposition from the liberal wing of the Democratic Party, either in Congress or as represented among the pundits. The neocon-liberal popular front lives on and is bound to be an endless source of schemes for yet more overseas wars in which we have no national interest."


Mr. Medved
"The same logic applies to the American Presidential race and other political skirmishes of the moment. Both sides may be imperfect, but one faction carries a far more debilitating burden of obtuseness and relativism, while the other – for all its faults – strives more consistently for moral clarity and merits wider support."
-------------------
The same logic also applies to the disagreement between you and me. One side carries a far more debilitating burden of obtuseness and relativism, while the other - that would be me - strives more consistently for moral clarity and merits wider support.

In looking the other way as McCain doggedly adhered to his version of collectivist pragmatism over the years, not to mention his outright lie on Saturday concerning his abortion position, you are guilty of the very "split the difference among warring interests in behalf of a 'can’t-we-all-get-along” vision of moral equivalency' that you excoriate the Progressive liberal Democrats for.

Now all of a sudden you got principle? We don't think so. You are simply a shill for cowardly pragmatism.

bookfiend wrote,
“The said fact is, you can make anybody believe anything, so long as you play to their ignorance and washes of emotion, which generally substitute for thought.”

Now I understand you!

Do you speak for all moral relativists?

Mr. Medved
Let's delve into principles some more, since you had the nerve to bring up the subject, you cowardly little shill.

Having principles requires that you stand by what you think is right in the face of negative consequences.

You say that McCain gave a "full-throated, unequivocal denunciation of Russian bullying." Talking is easy and popular. Yet, he refuses to stop Russia. Military options are off the table for McCain. What that means is that if he has to make a choice between the fall of Georgia and the commitment of U.S. military force, he would choose the fall of Georgia.

Why? Because the commitment of military force is unpopular. (And don't even bother to deny that is the true reason; we all know it).

In other words, he is not principled, just like I have been saying, and unlike your arbitrary assertions to the contrary.

But it is worse than that. It is catastrophic, grand epic hypocrisy, because in another context, McCain had also made a full-throated unequivocal claim that he would rather lose an election than lose a war.

NEOCON "NATIONALIST SUPREMACISTS"

neoconservatives are essentially "nationalist surpremacists" in their ideological stress on both power and morals in global affairs.

"Neoconservatives find their inspiration in a belief in the greatness of the American nation, which justifies its preeminent rank in the global hierarchy, defined in terms of both military and moral power. Neoconservatism is not a nostalgic patriotism. Irving Kristol, the intellectual father of modern neoconservatism, writes that ‘‘neoconservatism is not merely patriotic—that goes without saying—but also nationalist."

"Patriotism springs from a love of the nation’s past; nationalism arises out of hope for the nation’s future, distinctive greatness.’’ Nationalism provides the greater purpose needed to mobilize societal virtue and prevent the slide into decadence. Kristol and Kagan argue that such a sense of commitment is necessary even to preserve basic vital interests. This is why the movement so embraced Ronald Reagan. The President vanquished the Vietnam syndrome that had sapped America’s self-confidence and crippled the administration of Jimmy Carter in its dealings with Iran and the Soviet Union. In doing so, Reagan drew a strict moral line that neoconservatives respect between virtuous American democracy and an evil totalitarian empire...."





NEOCON "NATIONALIST SUPREMACISTS" (2)
"Neoconservatism is not a nationalism of the soil as is the case with American isolationism or other nationalisms across the globe. Rather, it is based on the superiority of American ideals and values, a universal nationalism. As a result, even more than others, American nationalism has a strong moral component that distinguishes it sharply from the amorality of realism. Realism is simply pragmatic, while neoconservatism puts great stress on the importance of American ideas and the strength it derives from them. Neoconservatives take what might be considered a constructivist approach to world politics that is sharply distinguished from the realists’ austere materialism. Hence, they are highly engaged in the media battle over the course of American foreign policy.45 The belief in the superiority and universality of American national values leads them to a vigorous promotion, at least rhetorically, of American institutions and ideals, most notably democracy. However, they do so in a unilateral way, in keeping with their nationalism...."

interesting re: Georgia/Russia conflict
Russia-Georgia Conflict Fueled by Rush to Control Caspian Energy Resources
Sobering thoughts about Russia from Ha'aretz 8/14/2008

Human Rights Watch has accused both Russian and Georgian forces of killing and injuring civilians through indiscriminate attacks over the past week of fighting. Professor and author Michael Klare joins us to talk about how the Russian-Georgian conflict is largely an energy war over who has access to the vast oil and natural gas reserves in the Caspian region.

Michael Klare, author of thirteen books, including Blood and Oil and Resource Wars. His latest is Rising Powers, Shrinking Planet: The New Geopolitics of Energy. He is the defense analyst for The Nation and the director of the Five College Program in Peace and World Security Studies at Hampshire College in Amherst.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Human Rights Watch has accused both Russian and Georgian forces of killing and injuring civilians through indiscriminate attacks over the past week of fighting.

On Tuesday, a Russian cluster bomb strike in the town of Gori killed at least eight civilians including the Dutch journalist Stan Storimans. An Israeli journalist was seriously wounded in the same attack. Human Rights Watch said this is the first known use of cluster munitions since Israel’s attack on Lebanon in 2006.

Meanwhile, tensions remain high between Moscow and Washington. On Thursday, US Defense Secretary Robert Gates issued a stern warning to Russia.

CONT...

interesting re: Georgia/Russia conflict
ROBERT GATES: If Russia does not step back from its aggressive posture and actions in Georgia, the US-Russian relationship could be adversely affected for years to come.

AMY GOODMAN: Russia is now maintaining that the events of the past week have fundamentally redrawn Georgia’s borders. Russia’s Foreign Minister said it will be impossible to persuade the separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree to be forced back into the Georgian state.

Our next guest has been closely examining how the Russian-Georgian conflict is largely an energy war over who has access to the vast oil and natural gas reserves in the Caspian region.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Three [years] ago the United States helped open a 1,000-mile-long pipeline that connected Azerbaijan to Turkey, running through Georgia. The pipeline was designed specifically to bypass Russia. More oil and natural gas pipelines are scheduled to be built in Georgia.

Michael Klare is the author of thirteen books, including Blood and Oil and Resource Wars. His latest book is Rising Powers, Shrinking Planet: The New Geopolitics of Energy. He is the defense analyst for The Nation and the director of the Five College Program in Peace and World Security Studies at Hampshire College in Amherst. He joins us this morning.

Welcome to Democracy Now!, Michael.

MICHAEL KLARE: Good morning.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, talk to us about the pipelines and the energy aspect that has received almost very little attention in all the coverage of the Russian-Georgia conflict.

CONT...

interesting re: Georgia/Russia conflict
MICHAEL KLARE: Well, I believe that this is what really underlies the conflict, and it has to do with the fact that the US has eyed the Caspian Sea, which lies just to the east of Georgia, as an energy corridor for exporting Caspian Sea oil and gas to the West, bypassing Russia. And this was the brainchild of Bill Clinton, who saw an opportunity, when the Soviet Union broke apart, to gain access to Caspian oil and gas, but he didn’t want this new energy to flow through Russia or through Iran, which were the only natural ways to export the energy.
So he anointed Georgia as a bridge, to build new pipelines through Georgia to the West. And it was he who masterminded the construction of the BTC pipeline, which is now the outlet for this oil, with new pipelines supposedly following for natural gas. And he chose Georgia for this purpose and also built up the Georgian military to protect the pipeline, and Russia has been furious about this ever since. And I think that’s the reason that they have clung so tightly to Abkhazia and South Ossetia ever since.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re not hearing very much about this conflict, as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice heads to the area—I mean, the energy oil politics behind this conflict.

THE AMERICAN STANDARD !!

"We've staked the whole future of American civilization NOT on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us . . . to Govern ourselves according to the COMMANDMENTS of GOD. The future and success of America is NOT in this Constitution, but in the LAWS of GOD upon which this Constitution is FOUNDED."

President James Madison

interesting re: Georgia/Russia conflict
MICHAEL KLARE: No, but if you study very closely the history of US ties to Georgia, it’s unmistakable. Even under the Clinton administration, when Eduard Shevardnadze was the president of Georgia, who was hardly a paragon of democracy, President Clinton said that we need Georgia as an energy ally of the United States. And that was the basis on which the US forged a military alliance with Georgia.

And since then, we’ve poured hundreds of millions of dollars into beefing up the Georgian military. And this is unmistakable in the State Department and military Department of Defense justifications for arming the Georgian military, specifically to protect the BTC pipeline against sabotage and attack. So, looking into the Pentagon and State Department documents, there’s no question that this is about energy security, not about democracy or human rights or the other justifications that have been given.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Now, how would the two breakaway provinces affect this battle? Does the pipeline run through one or either of them?

Subject: interesting re: Georgia/Russia
MICHAEL KLARE: No, they run very close to South Ossetia, in particular, and I believe that the Russians have always been resentful of this effort by the United States to bypass Russia. Now, previously to this effort by the Clinton administration, subsequently embraced by the Bush administration, to establish bypass pipelines, previous to that, all of the pipelines from the Caspian Sea ran through Russia, of course formerly the Soviet Union, ran through Russia to Europe.

And it is the ambition of the Russian leadership, especially Vladimir Putin, to dominate the flow of oil and natural gas from the Caspian Sea to Europe, so they could maximize the profit and the political advantage of dominating the flow of Caspian energy to Europe. And by building these alternate pipelines, the US is trying to undercut Russia’s political and economic power in Europe. That’s what this is about. It’s a geopolitical contest between the US and Europe for—between the US and Russia for influence in Europe.

So, by clinging to these enclaves, this is Russia’s insurance policy, I guess you could call it, or veto power, over the American strategy, because they’re saying, “From our positions in these enclaves, we can sever those pipelines whenever we want,” which is exactly what they attempted to do this week. They did in fact bomb or attack the pipelines. And what they’re saying to the Europeans is, “You can build pipelines through Georgia, but we can snap them whenever we want.” And I think that the message that they’ve been sending to the Europeans is, “Don’t think that you could build more pipelines through Georgia and they’ll be safe. They’ll never be safe.”

JUAN GONZALEZ: And, Michael, as you mentioned in one of your recent articles, the Russian leadership is as tied to its energy infrastructure as the present Bush administration is to the energy infrastructure here. President Medvedev is a former head of Gazprom, isn’t he?

interesting re: Georgia/Russia conflict
MICHAEL KLARE: Yes, exactly. And what’s underway in Europe is an effort headed by the EU to try to get under the thumb of Gazprom’s dominant role in the delivery of natural gas. Gazprom now delivers something like one-fourth of Europe’s natural gas. And if Gazprom has its way, it will double the amount of natural gas it supplies to Europe.

This has many Europeans and the United States deeply worried, because it kind of undercuts NATO’s independence. So, under American prodding, Europe has plans to build an alternative energy natural gas system called Nabucco, after the opera by Verdi, and this would go right through Georgia. And I think one of the major objectives of Russia’s incursion into Georgia is to say to the European leadership, “Your ideas about Nabucco are futile, because we can smash the Nabucco system anytime we want.”

AMY GOODMAN: Michael Klare, I wanted to ask you about John McCain’s adviser, the controversy around Randy Scheunemann, part owner of the lobbying firm Orion Strategies, the Washington Post revealing Scheunemann briefed McCain before an April phone call with Georgian President Saakashvili, the same day Orion signed a $200,000 contract to advise Saakashvili’s government. Scheunemann then helped McCain draft a strong statement of support for Georgia. And Saakashvili has been talking directly to McCain, I mean, speaking through the press to McCain.

Subject: interesting re: Georgia/Russia
MICHAEL KLARE: Yes. It’s my impression that neoconservative circles in Washington have been egging Saakashvili on, have been telling him that he had much stronger support in Washington for this move, for this attack he made last week into South Ossetia, than he really did. I think, like so much else that’s happened in the past few years, there are really two foreign policy voices in Washington: the State Department voice of Condoleezza Rice and the Vice President’s Office and other elements around Dick Cheney that have a completely different foreign policy. And I wouldn’t be surprised if people around John McCain and Vice President Cheney weren’t telling Saakashvili that if he invaded South Ossetia, he would get much more support from the United States than in fact he did, and that this is what motivated him to provoke this clash, thinking that the US would come to his rescue. I have absolutely no evidence for that, but this kind of report that you just cited leads me to think that he went into South Ossetia last week with some sort of promises that never materialized.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And what do you make of Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic nominee, his response to this crisis? Do you see any difference in his approach at this point from those of Bill Clinton previously or President Bush, in terms of the situation in Georgia?

interesting re: Georgia/Russia conflict
MICHAEL KLARE: Well, you know, I get the sense that he was caught off guard by all of this. You don’t get the impression that he was following this as closely maybe as he should have. I don’t think he was aware of just how much—how much there has been this history of US support for Saakashvili and how much encouragement he’s probably been receiving from elements in Washington to engage in this adventuristic policy against the Russians.

And again, I don’t know how much he’s even aware of the degree to which Georgia has been a US military protectorate, the hundreds of millions of dollars of military aid, the fact that there are US military instructors in Georgia, and that this fast-track NATO policy that the Bush administration has favored—all of this has been viewed in Moscow as an effort, as part of this larger effort, that the Bush administration has pushed—is seen in Moscow as part of an offensive, you know, an attack on Russia. It’s tied, of course, to plans for putting missile interceptors in Poland and with the radars in Czechoslovakia. They see this as a Cold War assault on Russia coming from Washington, tied also to plans I mentioned a minute ago to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. They feel they’re under attack and very threatened. And so, all of this is viewed by them as something that required a strong countermove.

I don’t get the sense that Senator Obama was quite aware of the degree to which they felt under attack and were poised for some kind of counter-response.

interesting re: Georgia/Russia
AMY GOODMAN: It’s also interesting to see the presidents of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia standing with the Georgian president. They all went to Georgia. I just came back from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, and I was very struck by, when asking why these countries had joined with the US in invading Iraq, albeit their forces very small in number but both in Iraq and Afghanistan, people repeatedly said, “We have to do this, because we need the US support against Russia.” They’re still very afraid of a Russian occupation. They don’t forget the sixty years.

MICHAEL KLARE: Yes, this is true. But on the other hand, I—again, I come back to this notion that we have two foreign policies. We have the State Department foreign policy, Condoleezza Rice, who often speaks of the need for a cooperative relationship with Russia, with working out these complicated issues, and we have a neoconservative foreign policy emanating from the Vice President’s Office, which isn’t interested in cooperation, which is interested in confrontation and in reviving the Cold War. And I think that they go to the countries on the border of the Soviet Union and encourage them to take a confrontational line and seek out leaders who are willing to speak this way. This is not where the rest of Europe is inclined.

AMY GOODMAN: Michael Klare, we want to thank you for being with us, defense analyst for The Nation, director of the Five College Program for Peace and World Security Studies at Hampshire College in Amherst. His latest book is Rising Powers, Shrinking Planet: The New Geopolitics of Energy.

Gotta love those TH word limits
There you have it, in about a gazillion parts (which I now realize you are reading in reverse order). Lovely!

Anyway, it's interesting that you don't read about this stuff in the American corporate MSM. Our friends Dick Cheney and the neo-cons are at it again.

BTW, Ha'aretz is an Israeli newspaper, but I was told that this is a transcript of a Democracy Now! report. DN is a radio show on the Pacifica network broadcast out of New York.

Nuance is a refuge of cowards
Sen. Obama uses "nuance" to justify not taking a position on a moral issue, namely, abortion. This is cowardice, and cowards should not be presidents.

Even if Sen. Obama has not resolved for himself whether abortion is good or evil, he must enforce the laws as they are while taking positions on others' attempts to change them, e.g. by vetoing or signing legislation and appointing federal judges. Therefore, his personal moral cowardice provides no political refuge. Voters who would provide him this refuge are also cowards.

Finally, I've seen it oft remarked in this forum that the Bible cannot provide a moral philosophy based on reason. This is false.

When a decent, thinking man consults both the Bible and the works of Prof. Peter Singer on moral issues, he relies on the advice of the former because the latter is obviously a vile, wretched fool who justifies infanticide on grounds that the capacity of reason endows moral worth. Yet reason also endows moral worth on the basis of belonging to the human race, and by so doing limits reason as a justification for depriving humans of moral worth.

Reason must impose limits on reason. Otherwise, it is an insatiable snake dining on itself - the icon representing this truth (the ouroboros in the Christian and Jungian views). Sen. Obama's moral cowardice prevents him from understanding this vital truth, and we must hope that it consumes him before November.

What an Insult to Conservatives!
Medved's view of conservatives is very low. Very much defensible, but very low.

"Conservatives approach every challenge with a determination to approach the question (as far as possible)as a choice between right and wrong, good and evil." Liberals, on the other hand, engage in such things as "nuance." This, Medved claims, shows their moral weakness. Thus, in the current affair in Georgia, the correct Medved view is: Georgia good, Russia bad.

Now, as a libertarian, I don't agree with conservatives or liberals on a lot of things. But maybe Medved could stretch that calcified neoconservative brain of his and realize that his view of Russia and Georgia might, just might, be a little over-simplified.

First of all, South Ossetia and Abkhazia have enjoyed defacto independence from Tbilisi since 1991--a fact rarely if ever mentioned in flatfooted, Medvedian commentary. That very defacto independence was guaranteed, with UN approval, by Russian peacekeeping forces, who were killed in the initial GEORGIAN invasion.

(Yes, Georgia started the war. Another bothersome fact for Neocons.)

Russia, not surprisingly, did not take well to the killing of its own soldiers, and responded with force. Very similar, you will note, to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon after a much smaller number of its soldiers were killed in a border skirmish. But remember, to a Neocon: Russia BAD! Israel GOOD!

Really, Medved's view is a tremendous insult to conservatives. To be fair, REAL conservatives--those who have read and understand the Founding Fathers' wise counsel to stay out of foreign entanglements--probably do feel insulted. But more and more, the Republican Party is run by nut-case Neocons who think America has to choose a "good" or "evil" side in every conflict.

Moral Absolutes, Good and Evil
There is an important term which conservatives so often neglect, prudence. Anyone who is what ordinarily is understood to be "reasonable" will understand that action is this world is always a matter of shades of gray. The moral universe men and women live in is contaminated by original sin, yet saved by Christ's love. Where conservatives go wrong, and Medved is mostly wrong, is to see a simple dichotomy between good and evil. St. Augustine has already shown that evil does not, properly speaking, exist. It's a pure void, or lack in terms of a moral standard. In the darkened world we live in one must have prudence and a sense of all parties involved. The "invasion" of Georgia is no more simple than the "invasion" of Iraq.

Liberals, I confess, hope that conflicts can be resolved because God's creation is a harmony and they yearn for that simple harmony. They over look the sinfulness we have inherited from Adam's first sin, listening and acting on Eve's suggestion.

Therefore, I condemn both conservatives and liberals, ask all of my readers to read St. Augustine, and begin a practice of daily confession in their local parish.

Thank you,

One hoping in the vision of God

the subtext matters
I watched the Saddleback program and was deeply impressed with Pastor Warren's ability to ask a probing question without framing it within some tricky "How are things now since you've stopped beating your wife?" context.

I also appreciated his ability to convey his respect for both candidates. It is possible to disagree with someone's position without conveying your conviction that the speaker is a moral midget or a moron. Both liberals and conservatives fall into this swamp of generalization.

I was not happy with Sen. Obama's comment that determining when the human fetus has human rights is "above his pay grade." That question is at the heart of the abortion debate and one needs to have some clarity on that very point.

However, the inadequacy of his response does not, in my opinion, make Sen Obama a moral relativist. His comments on other areas of public concern show clearly that he is not afraid to name something as morally wrong.

At the same time, Sen. McCain's response to the Soviet-style aggression in Georgia does not make him irresponsible or trigger happy. You can disagree with his analysis of the situation in Georgia but you cannot say the man knows nothing of the dynamics of war. His staunch resistence to torture as a legal method of interogation is an example.

Painting people with broad brushes just confuses the issues and short-circuits dialogue. It's not helpful and, at it's heart, it is very unfair.

Medved just once
can you leave the South out of an article? It would be so refreshing.

Notice how Medved pointedly ignores Israeli evil done to the Palestinians. I guess his lack of moral equivalence allows him to find good in the killing of Palestinian kids by Israeli bullets. Of course, the Amalekites received no quarter either so it must have been good to annhilate them too.


Moral instruction
McCain's "staunch" resistance to the use of torture leaves a little to be desired, since he has switched to supporting the use of waterboarding. Of course, as the article points out, there's no room for nuance here. McCain is either for torture or agin' it. Guess he likes it now.
Does moral obtuseness include thinking that it's stupid and juvenile to divide the world into "good guys" and "bad guys"? Someone please tell me when this kind of dumbed-down terminology became the touchstone of enlightened thinking on the far right. Was it Forest Gump? Do all the Republicans want to emulate good old Forest?
In an interview for Esquire Magazine, McCain explained his attitude toward serving in the Navy: "I enjoyed shooting rockets and dropping bombs and shooting off guns. ... Noone in his right mind wouldn't enjoy that!"
This is obviously one of the "good guys", right?
But, hey, it gets better on domestic issues. Medved the Moral thinks that the wealthy are by definition "righteous" and the poor are intrinsically "rotten". If that is ethical clarity, what is?
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