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Friday, December 12, 2008
John Hawkins :: Townhall.com Columnist
Five Short Economics Lessons For the Age of Obama
by John Hawkins
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"If all we want are jobs, we can create any number -- for example, have people dig holes and then fill them up again, or perform other useless tasks. Work is sometimes its own reward. Mostly, however, it is the price we pay to get the things we want. Our real objective is not just jobs but productive jobs -- jobs that will mean more goods and services to consume." -- Milton Friedman

Barack Obama and the Democratic Party seem to have fallen in love with the idea of "make work" jobs. In other words, they're going to take money from taxpayers and then use it to "create green jobs," work projects, and other marginally useful government programs. Then, to add insult to injury, these very same politicians who've taken the money out of working people's pockets will pat themselves on their backs for being compassionate enough to put people to work.

What shouldn't be missed is the other side of the equation: much of the money paid in taxes to the government would otherwise be spent, thereby creating jobs. Furthermore, since the government is less efficient than private industry and because in most cases, people are better able to fill their own needs with their own money than the government can, the "make work" job process is inherently inefficient.

That's why one of the worst things the government can do, particularly in a recession, is to try to create "jobs programs."

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread." -- Thomas Jefferson

The federal government is inevitably slower, dumber, and less competent than private industry. Moreover, just about every truly catastrophic economic event that has occurred in the last century -- from the depression to the savings and loan crisis to the current housing crisis -- all have at their root government intervention in the market.

That's why the partial nationalization of this country's banks and auto industry should absolutely terrify people. There is absolutely nothing that should make anyone think that an "auto czar" or some other bureaucratic flunky who's answerable to Congress would do anything to help make these businesses more viable over the long-term. It's quite the opposite, actually.

Over the long haul, the more intimately our government is involved in the market, the more damage it will do to our economy.

"Suppose I hire you to repair my computer. The job is worth $200 to me and doing the job is worth $200 to you. The transaction will occur because we have a meeting of the mind. Now suppose there's the imposition of a 30 percent income tax on you. That means you won't receive $200 but instead $140. You might say the heck with working for me -- spending the day with your family is worth more than $140. You might then offer that you'll do the job if I pay you $285. That way your after-tax earnings will be $200 -- what the job was worth to you. There's a problem. The repair job was worth $200 to me, not $285. So it's my turn to say the heck with it. This simple example demonstrates that one effect of taxes is that of eliminating transactions, and hence jobs." -- Walter Williams

The Democrats' answer to every problem is "raise taxes" and now that they have a large majority in D.C., they will get to do exactly that over the next few years.

However, the more you raise taxes, the more economic activity is retarded, and the more the economy slows. We cannot massively expand the size of the federal government and erase the deficit almost entirely on the backs of the rich without dramatically slowing down the growth of our economy over the long term.

Since the current and future prosperity of this country hinges on the economy continuing to grow, we need to do everything we can to keep taxes as low as possible for everyone -- poor, rich, and middle-class.

"We don't have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven't taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much." -- Ronald Reagan

It's ironic that Reagan mentioned a "trillion-dollar debt" in that quote because we've thrown away far more than that on the bailout so far and are on pace to run trillion dollar deficits over the next few years.

We are selling our children into slavery via debt -- to give seniors more comfortable retirements, to hand out goodies to interest groups, and to bail out failing companies.

Worse yet, the majority of our political class in D.C. doesn't seem to care that we're selling our nation's economic birthright for a bowl of porridge.

"It is the maxim of every prudent master of a family, never to attempt to make at home what it will cost him more to make than to buy...What is prudence in the conduct of every private family, can scarce be folly in that of a great kingdom. If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them with some part of the produce of our own industry, employed in a way in which we have some advantage." -- Adam Smith

Because our tax rates are creeping ever higher and the number of regulations on businesses is continuing to expand, American companies are become less competitive with our overseas rivals in an increasingly global world.

There's a right way and a wrong way to handle this.

The right way is to cut taxes, decrease regulations, and work to open up more foreign markets to our goods. This would help keep goods here cheap, help American businesses become more competitive, and help spur job growth.

The wrong way to deal with this problem would be to increase the cost of foreign goods through trade barriers in order to keep them uncompetitive with American products. That would make goods we buy more expensive, make it more difficult for American companies to compete globally, and slow job growth.

For the United States to remain an economic super power, we need to have competitive businesses that employ productive workers. The American people have proven up to the task for over 200 years and will remain so as long as the government doesn't get in our way.

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John Hawkins is a professional blogger who runs Right Wing News, Linkiest, and Viral Footage.
 
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One thing
we can guarantee is the current idiots in Washington will try to solve this crisis resulting in even more hard times. The best thing that could happen is for government to get out of the private sector and let the poor businesses fail.

Well John
Even though I agree with you, I am not so sure that now is the time for Republicans to be giving advice on how to manage the economy. You may want to start small and then expand. Wall Street or Detroit, for example; maybe smaller, the Poteet Strawberry festival. They are having a bad crop this year.

What we need is a smarter public
The marketplace has far more power than most of us realize. When Detroit began making junk because of their unworkable business model, the public quit buying the Detroit products.

The big three are worried that people won't buy cars from a bankrupt company. They should be worried about whether we will buy cars from companies that have just robbed our wallets.

Neither the government nor business can manipulate us if we don't cooperate.

Price is not the only factor that drives a purchase and sometimes the actions of government, regulating or taxing, or business, playing at community responsibility or taking bailouts, makes me keep my money in my pocket.

Well, done
Every point is economically sound.

No "stimulus" package can possiby work because any government "investment" must be in lieu of private sector investment meaning the loss of many more jobs than could possibly be "created" by a stimulus package.

Government caused this crisis, just as it did the last one and the Great Depression (which only a complete idiot believes would have been over sooner if only FDR had spent more) which was then made much worse by FDR.

Right now the meddling has so damaged the confidence in the economy that they could pour money down on everyone - as they are trying to do - and it still wouldn't get spent.

The best solution, as always, is to get government out of the way and LET THE MARKET WORK.

The World We Have Created
America is now filled with people that believe they can make a living by sticking their hand in their neighbors pocket. They have received an atrocious education and are informed on the nightly news by people that really want to be actors and have no understanding of the way the world really works.

This has led us to the point where we are massively in debt and quickly creating a lot more debt. The increasing debt, the debasement of the currency and the drop in economic activity will cascade and swamp the nation. The politicians will see this as a reason to increase interference in the economy. Pretty much the definition of insanity. Congress will keep doing the same thing thinking they will get a different result. They won't.

Cause and effect
Quite obviously 'getting votes' is more important to politicians than whether every one gets a fair shake.

Sixty years ago, I had a high school teacher, Mr. Carl C. Gardner, who taught us what government was SUPPOSED to do and how badly it was doing it. It only took me about 10 years to begin to realize how right he might have been. About 5 years later, the evidence was irrefutable -- anything humans can mess up, 'government' can mess it up far worse by 'fixing' it or even 'helping'.

Oh, politicians will continue to offer bribes and people will continue to take them -- until there is nothing left with which to pay the bribes.

Sgt Relic, F1etch
and h20skier have it exactly right. Politicians will ruin this country if they have not already. Now that Ovomit and the Democrats were allowed to take over, it's down hill all the way. Those companies (any company) through poor management or allowing themselves to be browbeaten and intimidated by unions or any outside force deserve what they get.

Paying a person $26 dollars an hour to do a $7 dollar an hour assembly job is just plain stupid!

Of course, with this new Liberal/Socialist administration it is truly "The Dawning Of The Age Of Stupidity!"

Agree
I certainly agree with the columnist, and all your thoughts. In trying hard to be fair, I would like to add the automakers' woes are not entirely of their own making. Yes, it is the union/benefits/salary, but it is also government interference, taxes, making them make a car no one wants to buy, CAFE standards, and on and on. It is stunning to learn how well these same companies are doing overseas! Congress, please get out of the way!!!!

Hide your money from Big Bro government.
The "social justice", Big Bro government of Barry and Michelle have their eyes on your money and assets.

Hide them now. Don't feed the beast of the federal government. Barry "Blago" Hussein should SACRIFICE some of the millions he made peddling his two RACE OBSESSED books.


'THE COMPANY WE KEEP'
The bottom line seems to be that the liberal left congress believes they would make a better 'Board of Directors' of not just 'failing' businesses but any and all companys. They are also of the opinion that
they can wave a magic wand and instantaneously create their own 'job works' 'Company of America'.
Since congress, especially in the last two years, has proven how inept they are at 'running' the government, why would they expect the American people to be 'stupid' enough to think they could manage 'running' anything. Just because the majority of Americans voted for 'change' doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to know any government managed business or company is NOT where they would invest their money or buy stock in.
However, 'global' investors might just buy into and invest in the 'failing' businesses and 'Company of America' that our 'failing' government manages, knowing at some point, they then can step in with a 'hostile takeover'.
And that's the 'TICKET' and 'THE COMPANY WE KEEP' for 'voting' for 'CHANGE'.


Public works projects
Here are a few words in defense of public work programs. The last time my husband and I visited New York City we took a walking tour of Central Park (admitttedly one of my favorite places on earth). We learned that the park was the result of a giant Victorian era public works project during a nineteenth century economic downturn. The project was greatly criticized at the time for the same reasons we're hearing about today ("boondoogle", "make work", etc). Now, with the benefit of hindsight, we can see that the park has paid for itself many, many times over. Not only does it enrich the lives of New Yorkers and tourists from around the world, a view of Central Park commands much higher apartment rents, condo prices and hotel room rates (all of which reap greater tax revenue for the city of New York).

Here's another example. Have you ever driven along Chicago's magnificent Lake Shore Drive? For this you can thank FDR and his Depression era vision.

Certainly, many public works projects are just pork laden bridges to nowhere. But others create lasting legacies for our country, Let's just hope that our new administration has vision that persists long after the next election. Our country's future depends on it.

PS. I just Googled Mt. Rushmore. It was a public works project.

re: ellen
the difference back then was people wanted to work to take care of the family and work towards doing something to better themselves. today most people think government should be taking care of them, they do not want to work, i have a few in-laws that are living proof. they say something is wrong with them and are unable to work. the truth is they are fat and lazy and dont want to work, (you can imagine how much fun holidays are around here) they want to have their cell phones, ipods, games, big screen tv's so they can watch movies.

Thank you Don Juan!
Thanks, Don. I neglected to mention the Interstate Highway system. Eisenhower not only helped save the world, he left a lasting legacy that most of us use everyday.

I also didn't want to imply that what America needs now is parks and monuments. What we need no is to free ourselves to our addiction to oil. President Bush talked about that a lot in his State of the Union message a few years ago but nothing substantative was done. Now is the time to act. Our grandchildren will thank us.

ellen
A few problems with your analysis: first, the determination that those projects (Central Park, Lake Shore Drive, Mt. Rushmore) have "paid for themselves" is NOT an objective assessment. It is based on the unsupported assumption that the economic benefits of those projects not otherwise undertaken could not have exceeded the benefits of those public works projects. Your enjoyment of Central Park and Mt. Rushmore in particular - as the economic benefits are minimal - certainly have placed emotion over reason.

The "enrichment" of New Yorkers and (vastly overstated) tourist draw from the park would have to enormous to offset the incalculably large return that those resouces could have yielded if used in the private sector.

Second, and particularly relevant with regard to Lakeshore Drive, the issue is not whether or not public works are worthwhile in themselves but whether or not they can create an economic "stimulus" when, in fact, that is economically impossible.

Third, don't confuse differences in property values with an economic windfall; it's nothing of the kind. Property values are relative to other locations, not otherwise static. The increase in rents/condo prices/hotel rates are inherently offset by reductons in still other areas. The increased tax benefit is illusory.

Our country's future depends far more on the lasting legacies of its economic policies than on any set of public works projects. No doubt there is a benefit to seeing that our infrastructure is at least sound (given the state monopoly on these items) but the real benefit of the "legacies" you mention is entirely fictional.

Don Juan
One should not attempt to berate others for "stupidity" while so clearly displaying such economic ignorance.

The notion that:

"for a seller to make money, HE HAS TO HAVE CUSTOMERS!!! Henry Ford created an industry by creating a market (his workers) for his product."

...is both economically backwards (and historically wrong). As Ford understood, the economy is driven by entrepreneurial investment in anticipation of future customer demand (not the other way around) and if he had to rely solely upon his workforce to purchase his product he would rapidly have gone out of business.

"Remarkably, Australia does not even have a modern expressway system linking their three largest cities (Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane)."

And yet Australia's economy is doing just fine, with a GDP per capita (typically the best measure of living standards) better than Denmark, Great Britain, Germany, France, etc. - all with marvelous road systems.

But perhaps the dumbest statement that I've seen lately is: "Free markets don't exist in the real world except at a micro level, and only in certain situations" particularly when arguing for still further government intervention (which caused the financial crisis in the first place!).

Conservatives have a lot of nerve
After 8 years of the failed economic policies of the Bush Administration which most conservatives embraced It seems funny to hear conservatives lecture the Obama administration on fiscal responsibility.

Inspite of all of the claims against liberals, it is conservatives whose toll boxes are empty. Times are good cut taxes- Times are bad cut taxes.

As John Maynard Keynes taught us, the way to get out of a recession is deficit spending that is used for job creation. This has a multiplier effect each new job puts money in the hands of that worker who spends that money and increases the demand for good and services. One job creates more private sector jobs.

What makes Obama's plan even better than the traditional Keynesian Approach is that Obama wants to create those jobs not just digging useless ditches but rebuilding our nation's infrastructure something that conservatives have ignored. Government policies have often included incentives whether on the spending side or the tax cutting side. The decision to tax capital gains at a lower rate than what you tax the worker who earns his money through sweat is a policy decision.

Obama plans to maximize efficiency by creating those jobs strategically. As to cutting taxes, Obama will likely let the Bush Tax Cuts aimed at the wealthy to expire as they were designed to do. But additionally he will give a tax cut to the middle class more than they got fron conservatives. This will certainly increase the national debt, but given our current circumstances that should be secondary to pulling us out of this Bush Recession.


JMO51 Location: NY
You haven't seen nothing yet. We plan to get all deranged just like you all did with peso george. At least we will be doing it with good reason!

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

EVERYONE HAS A PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY....
LIBS JUST DON'T HAVE ANY FILM!

Obummer the Brick
Jeesh! Move along people.

Teaching Economics to a Lib?

You're better off trying to teach a cat how to throw a baseball!

Of course, if you can explain it in a way so that the "I feel" curve intersects the "I demand" curve on graph, then they might clue in.

JMO51, you are getting boring trying
to sell that conservatives were in charge for 8 years. Bush is not a conservative and the Republican party is way too full of liberal RINOs. It was the failure to adhere to conservative principles that caused this mess and more leftist "liberalism" not only won't fix it but will make it far worse!

What a maroon!

Economics Lessons
This article reflects the perpetual problem of the left’s preoccupation of undermining the economy, stability, and security of the country in order to satisfy the irresponsible and usually immoral segment of society looking for handouts.

I predicted this on 5 Nov: My 10 predictions in the next four years: 1) Iran will acquire nuclear weapons. 2) North Korea will be partially appeased by capitulating to its demands and providing huge amounts of aid at taxpayers’ expense. 3) The economy will not bounce back for four years, three if hope for a GOP win in 2012 looks do-able. 4) Iraq will disintegrate into chaos after we prematurely pull-out. 5) Afghanistan becomes a hopeless mission and Bin Laden dies of old age, is not caught, or he moves in the White House’s Lincoln bedroom. 6) Africa, especially Kenya, will be recipients of huge amounts of aid at U.S. taxpayers’ expense. 7) At least two ultra liberal Supreme Court judges will be named with disastrous long-term consequences to the Constitution and its precepts. 8) Welfare of every kind and imaginable by perverse leftist minds will be rampant. 9) Taxes will be the highest in our history. 10) Despite the fawning MSM and obsessive image fabrication, the pretender will be ignobly voted out of office in 2012. For an 11th, I would say it will take at least eight years to undo the damage done but maybe a large part will be irreversible. For a twelfth: Publicly, the international community will laud the pretender for his “brilliant diplomacy”. Privately, they will gloat, snicker, laugh, and point at the gullible buffoon in the White House and the greatly reduced influence of the U.S. on the world’s stage.


JMO51
"After 8 years of the failed economic policies..."

The only such policy that was a failure of the administration was the out-of-contro spending that Obama wishes to increase by several orders of magnitude. Arguably, affirming Bernanke as chairman of the Fed (chief architect of the crisis) was a mistake, but the administration cannot alter Fed policy.

"Inspite of all of the claims against liberals, it is conservatives whose toll boxes are empty. Times are good cut taxes- Times are bad cut taxes."

Since, of course, the problem is SPENDING, not insufficiently high taxes (which has had NOTHING to do with any economic problem), why should "conservatives" abandon reality?

"As John Maynard Keynes taught us..."

Gee, if Keynesia economics had not already been discredited (in no small part because deficit spending does NOT result in job creation), his message would REALLY have been helpful.

"What makes Obama's plan [worse] than the traditional Keynesian Approach..."

... is that it is an even greater embrace of policies already demonstrated to be a complete failure in the 1930s.

"Obama plans to maximize efficiency..."
It's called the economic calcualtion problem: it is economically IMPOSSIBLE for government to do ANYTHING more efficiently than the market from which the funds to pay for such programs must be taken.

When you call it the "Bush Recession" rather than, say, the "Fed Recession" you serve only to further demonstrate your lack of economic knowledge, but, hey, thanks for playing!!!

JM051
Here's a shining example of Obamaspeak, the sort of sophisticated sounding pap that is meaningless but still dazzles the drones:

"Obama plans to maximize efficiency by creating those jobs strategically."

Thank goodness! See, at first I had my doubts about the effectiveness of government make-work programs in terms of providing an economic stimulus, given their less than stellar historical track record. But that was until JM051 informed me that His Holiness will create these jobs "strategically."

How wrong I was to doubt the Dear Leader. I'll just go flog myself now for my sins.

Good column
It reinforces the "I've got a bad feeling about this" thought that I've had throughout the "create jobs" discussion--namely that the only way government can have money to invest in the economy is if it takes money out of the economy in the first place.

Seems to me to be, at best, a zero-sum proposition.

Nice try, Don Juan
"It's a serviceable simplification of an incorrigible fact of economics. If you already have six Bentleys, what is the marginal utility of having a seventh?"

Interesting question - completely irrelevant to the discussion, but still interesting. Ford was able to offer a roduct at a lower price becasue of his development of automation. He paid his workers better (in the absence of government mandate) in order to attract and retain the best workers he could find. In no way does that support the (ecnomically ridiculous) notion that he "created a market" for his products by paying workers more.

"Putting more money in the hands of the wealthy will not stimulate demand."

THAT is the problem with your analysis. The notion that the economy is driven by "stimulating demand" has been thoroughly and completely dscredited. Economic growth is driven by wealth creation. This is not "trickle=down" anything; it's a basic fact of economics. Even investment in T-bills is economically more beneficial than government spending - the notion that these assets are "idle" is another canard - as even then the private use of those resources can still be facilitated.

The imbecility that "[t]he problem with this economy is that too few have too much, and too many have too little" is not an expression of economics, but of nothing but envy.

And don't try teaching economics to me - you wouldn't have passed the course when I taught it and that's been more than a decade ago.

More economic foolishness from Don Juan
"We should be investing in green energy."

When the market makes it cost effective, it will happen. Any attempt to force it beforehand is economiclly destructive.

"We have lots of idle plant capacity, and there is plenty of wind in northern Michigan."

And you have enough personal knowledge of these plants and capabilities that you can determine better than investors and property owners what is commercially viable?!?!? Typical fooish liberal arrogance.

"If we used these factories to produce turbines, and converted fleet autos to run on LNG..."

...all of which you assume without basis will yield benefits greater than the cost...

"...we would reduce our balance-of-payments..."

No such "problem" exists.

"...and energy problems..."

Again, what "problem" exists that is not inherently addressed by the market.

"...and put people back to work."

Only the maretplace can create jobs. The notion that government can do this has been debunked by actual history.

"The investment would pay for itself, but it is too large for an average company to pull off."

Say hello to Mr. Rorke and Tattoo while you're there on the island!

"Renewables are now cost-competitive..."

No, they are not.

Problem is, I've never seen an economy that the government couldn't run into the ground via staggering incompetence (see this one, the Great Depression, etc.).

WAIT A MINUTE!
I thought Liberals believed in EVOLUTION! But ACORN Hopey McChange says his Economic Plan will result in The CREATION of jobs. Well let’s see, if he gives someone a job changing light bulbs, they use 1000 Hour bulbs and there are 8760 hours in a year. This individual will change individual light bulbs 8 times a year. If they use Al Bore’s Green (i.e. TOXIC) light bulbs, they will need a HAZMAT Crew to change light bulbs, which will make changing them COSTLY. At the same time, you have Plastic Surgery Piglosi and Sherry Reid wanting to bailout The UAW and appoint a Car Czar. With Moe Obama, Larry Piglosi and Curly Reid on the job, I expect that the next time I buy a vehicle, I will we looking at a Horse & Buggy by Candlelight.

Ha
Republicans trying to lecture on economics. You did a bang-up job the last 8 years, but I think we'll stick with the Libs from now on.

some good some bad
The good: you have to give Hawkins credit for quoting Reagan in an argument on the evils on debt without giving an indication that he was laughing while writing it. In general, people who supported Reagan and/or Bush probably should not be pretending to an expertise on how to avoid deficits.

What is interesting about the rest is how little it is concerned with the actual economic situation we find ourselves in. Given the credit crunch would rich people respond to tax cuts with job creating investments? According to the article it would appear that the actual economic situation is irrelevant to what we should do. When one is 8 it makes sense to understand fields in this kind of simpleminded manner. If one is not ready for dealing with reality then one memorizes a few rules and one is good to go.

But really isn't Hawkins an adult? His picture would seem to indicate he is.

Don Juan writes:
"Problem is, I've never seen a government that a Republican couldn't run into the ground via staggering incompetence."
-----

Oh really?

Better thank the GOP Congress from 1994 to 2000 for preventing Bill Clinton from destroying the benefits of the Reagan boom.

Of course, you probably credit Clinton for this.

LOL

don juan
your and your stupid green industry all the time. It is fine to slowly move away from oil if we want. It is totally ridiculous and inefficient to not use the resources we already have. And you must be about 3 years old. Because it seems you have not been around very long. Your talk has been going on since that wonderful economic stimulator Carter was around. If there was a huge market for what you say the private sector would have moved there already. But obviously they have not. It never works and is not the task of government to move the economy in one direction or the other. That is how we got into this mess in the first place. Of course a believer in the Frank, Pelosi, Reid, Clinton, Obama and all other liberal mantras would not have the brains enough to see that.

Lon
I can't believe how screwed up Pennsylvania has become. I see so many mindless arrogant liberals from my state who think they are so much smarter than everyone else around them. What John Hawkins is telling you is common sense, something you and every other liberal I have ever met are completely devoid of.

sdf
Scary that people like you are allowed to vote. Guess what the republicans did not create the housing mess the wonderful liberals did. Go stick with the liberals in North Korea and see how efficient and smart they are.

Don Juan Location: IL sayz:
Econ 201 for Republican morons

And a person named don juan is going to teach us economics?

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

EVERYONE HAS A PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY....
LIBS JUST DON'T HAVE ANY FILM!

Tax increases by Obama
No! No! No! Tax increases only stifles the market. This does not increase jobs.

Lon
"[Y]ou have to give Hawkins credit for quoting Reagan in an argument on the evils on debt without giving an indication that he was laughing while writing it. In general, people who supported Reagan and/or Bush probably should not be pretending to an expertise on how to avoid deficits."

Of course (unlike under Bush) Congress during the Reagan years increased spending by substantially more than he requested.

"Given the credit crunch..."

...created by Fed policy. No such "credit crunch" still exists. To the contrary, people are retiring debt and staying out of the market due to the lack of confidence instilled by the repeated and wrong-headed interventions that have taken place and will likely continue to do so.

"...would rich people respond to tax cuts with job creating investments?"

That is a mischarcterization of the fundamentals. Investment does not change. The priate sector is a more efficient allocator of resources. Therefore, every dollar siphoned from the private sector for government "investment" resuts in a net LOSS of jobs. Always. Without exception. In good times or bad.

"According to the article it would appear that the actual economic situation is irrelevant to what we should do."

BING!!! The economic fundamentals do not change because government has aready screwed up the economy.

"When one is 8 it makes sense to understand fields in this kind of simpleminded manner."

There is little more "simpleminded" than believing that fundamentals change with the circumstances. If one is not ready for dealing with THAT reality, then one only undermines one's own credibility when holding forth on these issues.

Taxing The Rich Is BiggerTax On The Poor
Barack Obama's stated mission is to redistribute the wealth: Rob Peter (5% of America) to pay Paul (95% of America) -- an old political trick practiced by Democrats that depends on Populist greed and ignorance.

Wealth, contrary to populist beleif, is not finite. It is infinite. It is ever expanding, daily, nearly exponentially.

Instead of urging Americans to go get their own wealth, Obama recommends just taking it from others. How uniting! Remember trickle-down-economics? It is not a science, but an observation, like Karma, or what-goes-around-comes-around.

Trust me, those at the top are not going to take a pay cut. Like all good Democrats, the Obama team is hoping that the citizenry aren't smart enough to figure out that as you tax the producers of goods, services and jobs, they will simply pass it back to the citizenry with higher prices and lost jobs.

Taking wealth from others, only makes you poorer, on every level.

It is amazing what the power of greed does to a voter -- ignore consequences, ignore logic, ignore country, ignore your soul, go for immediate self gratification. Think "ME"! Vote Obama! He bet on your greed / ignorance. It worked.

Obama is a lot like the Lotto: neither deliver like the promise; And, just like the Lotto, betting on Obama is a tax on ignorance.

America is about to get taxed ... big time!

Tax Increases
You neo con morons said the same thing when Clinton raised taxes on the rich. But instead of slowing economic prosperity the DOW increased by more then 300%. Tell me neo con morons how much has the market increased since Bush cut taxes for the rich.

Before the Bush tax cuts the Clinton admnistration was running surpluses.

Listen morons the bad economy is do to a concentration of wealth not because we tax the rich to much.

RIDE THE RED PONY


.....The housing market collapsed because of too much easy credit ...the Government solution? ...give Paulson 700 Billion to give to the banks so that they can continue extending credit ...

.....This is like giving an alcoholic free whiskey when he can no longer pay for it ...but somebody has to pay for the whiskey eventually ...unless the Government can declare Chapter 11 when the Credit bubble finally bursts ...

....The only thing stupider than the Politicians in Washington are the people who vote for them ...they think they can get somewhere riding on a merry-go-round ... get the red pony he's the fastest .....COLOSSUS

History repeats
"If all the economists and all the weathermen swapped places over night, the next day, no one would notice" (source unknown).

This is largely because our nations economic IQ is 10 (out of a hundred). And even the so called experts are idiots. Here are some basic economic principles:

1. Wealth and Money are not the same thing. Wealth is the creation of tangable assets. Money is a medium with with to conduct economic activity. Wealth is the force that drives things, the movement of money is the energy that produces economic work.

2. The maximum wealth is created when the least amount of energy (i.e. money) is used to create the most amount of benefit. This is called allocative efficiency. This is where your standard of living comes from.

Based on these principles, the government is inherently a wealth sink. It will siphon off money from individuals who are making their decisions about allocative effeciency and funnel it to other activities, but only after reducing the amount of energy through beaurocratic overhead.

To put it another way, for every 900 jobs the government will "create" with its programs, 1000 jobs are lost in the private sector from the loss of energy in the system.

The Great Depression was as much caused by FDR's programs as it was helped. I fear history could be repeating itself.

Waiting
I have held my tongue in regards to Obama thus far. some of his picks are OK, but others like Carol Browner, are horrible. I don't see much good coming to this presidency; however, let him have a chance to succeed or fail. then the American people can vote to persist or change course. My main concern is that voters are so imbecilic that they will keep this Chicago pol in charge.

PAUL CA - SPEAKING OF MORONS

.....Paul baby ...just keep voting for Feinstein (D) and Boxer (D) ole buddy, they will straighten out the State along with RINO Terminator (don't call him a conservative) ...

.....What is the budget deficit in CA again? ...

.....My State is run by Conservatives ...we have a budjet surplus, low unemployment and no State Income Tax ...match that you Liberal Pinko and then come back and spout your nonsense .....COLOSSUS

Name Calling
Paul, how come you liberals always resort to name calling. Try some cogent arguements instead. The Presidency has little to do with economics compared to the influence of the Congress. Go back to civics class is you don't belive me.

The area where Clinton did have an effect is trade, and there he excelled with things like NAFTA (to the dismay of most of the liberals). The rest of the credit for the 90's goes to the Congress.

People are quick to blame Bush for the current economic difficulties, but most of that goes to the Congress, and yes the 6 years under the Repub's were not good either. The Repubs got full of themselves holding both Congress and the Presidency. I expect a similar lack of integrity from the Dems this time around.

Fletch
"Of course (unlike under Bush) Congress during the Reagan years increased spending by substantially more than he requested."

Not True.

A year ago, I read “An American Life, Ronald Reagan – the autobiography.” I thought there would be no better way to learn about small government, free market conservatism than from the Maestro himself.

I was shocked to read this on pages 344 and 345.

“Through it all, the farmers who suffered most were those who had been encouraged to overproduce by the billions of dollars available in federal subsidies.”

and,

“In the farm crisis of the mid-eighties we gave farmers more billions than any administration in history. Frankly, I didn’t relish giving so much of the taxpayers’ money away, especially when we were battling to bring down the deficit. But farmers were facing a real emergency, and since government had produced many of their problems, I believed it had an obligation to help bail out the victims, then to work to return farming to the free market.”

Wow, looks like we are still BAILING out the VICTIMS 25 years later. I wish the government would treat unemployed software engineers, like me, with this kind of conservatism. I could have collected a large unemployment check every month for five years and when my job skills had deteriorated, I could be declared a “victim” and President Reagan would mandate an even bigger check, a so-called “bailout” from the federal government, perhaps several hundred grand.

And now, in the year 2008, with farm subsidy handouts and ethanol mandates approaching $35 billion a year, we are well on the way to a free market in agriculture or the FINANCIAL SERVICES industry? The bailouts are only getting bigger.

Nanny State Removes Freedom, First
Don Juan offers, "Renewables are now cost-competitive, but the infrastructure must be built. It's a sort of chicken-and-the-egg problem, which is best solved by governmental intervention."

So, the Government should dictate what to make because "they" know what is best for Consumers?

So, what if the Consumer doesn't buy what "they" make?

Unfortunately, as the USSR learned, if the Consumers aren't buying what "they" make, "they" will need to lock down the borders (Iron Curtain) and give them no choice.

So much for freedom. How "green" is that?

Don Juan Lost In Economics
Don Juan offers that taxes are not always passed to consumer, "If producer #1 raises his price, producer #2 may not, and wealth is thereby redistributed."

Nonsense, of course.

If both producers are taxed, both producers will reflect the taxes.

Rest assured...
...that Obama and his cronies will do everything wrong to "fix" the economy, thus insuring that the recession will last longer than it would if the feds would just get out of the way. Of course, the longer it lasts and the worse it gets, the less Obama can blame everything on George W. Bush and "evil capitalism." At some point Obama will start getting the blame... and he won't know how to deal with the criticism. He will hole up in the Oval Office and develop even more ludicrous schemes to "fix" thngs. It won't be pretty...

I'll love seeing the thug disintegrate, but it's a shame millions will have to suffer in the process. I canonly hope that those who suffer most will be those who vioted for him. That seems likely, of course, because the people who create the jobs - and who didn't vote for Obama - certainly will fire others before they fire themselves!

http://www.colony14.net

Paul
You are confusing correlation with causation.

"You neo con morons said the same thing when Clinton raised taxes on the rich. But instead of slowing economic prosperity the DOW increased by more then 300%. Tell me neo con morons how much has the market increased since Bush cut taxes for the rich."

You were awrare, of course, that the economy (and thus the Dow) was rising as the Clintonm years began as a recovery was already underway and that economic grwth slowed to its weakest post-recession growth rate to that time in the wake of the tax increase. By the time Clinton left office, the economy was in full bore dive into a recession (inevitable long before Bush arrived).

"Before the Bush tax cuts the Clinton admnistration was running surpluses."

...which could not possibly have continued under any circumstances (and Clinton never predicted anyway). Clinton was surprised by the strength of the economy due tyo conditions in place BEFORE he took office.

"Listen morons the bad economy is do (sic) to a concentration of wealth not because we tax the rich to much."

When making such obviously economically ignorant comments as "the bad economy is do (sic) to a concentration of wealth" one might look in a mirror before using th term "moron".

zap
"Not True."

Yes. Actually, it is. Note that I did not say that Reagan undertook to cut spending, only that Congress spent more than he requested which is consistent with any coparison of the president's submitted budget and what was actually passed.

Don Juan
Supply siders will always spend like drunken sailors once they get their tax cut in place. Here's why.

All the borrowing and spending, borrowing and spending and more borrowing and spending during the George Bush years has, in itself, had the ability to raise tax revenues.

For example, borrow $400 million from China, then, Congress decides we need a critical infrastructure investment project like "a bridge to some island, populated with 40 people, somewhere in Alaska."

The U.S.A. borrows the money, pays the workers, and the workers pay income tax. If the construction company is unlucky, it may have to pay some corporate tax too. This is one project, now multiply all the above by 14,287. Feel free to pick another country to borrow from.

Feel free to double the size of the Department of Education. Feel free to increase entitlement spending with Medicare Prescription (part D), and free to spend $150 billion on two wars, every year, and, in general, feel free to increase domestic spending across the board. Well, sorry, I lied, cut Amtrak, but who needs mass transit when the President tells us, "we are addicted to foreign oil as never before."

The USA went from a deficit of $5 to $11 trillion the past seven years. It only took 200 years to get to $5 trillion. This total outstanding debt works out to about $37,000 per person in the USA. Now those tax cuts do feel good at the moment, but is there any upper limit to our nation's credit card?

To Liberals, All Income Is Gov't Subsidy
Don Juan offers, "We subsidize the hell out of oil -- "

Absolutely stupid nonsense.

The only money that the oil industry has ever gotten has been what they have earned on their own.

Unless of course, one beleives all income is the property of the Government -- an inane Liberal thesis. Then, anything that they let you keep is called subsidy.


Milton Friedman
put the final nail in Keynes' coffin years ago. Only a lefttard would suggest otherwise, but then these are the same dolts who think socialism and communism never got a fair shake and need to be tried again.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Educating Don
"You presuppose that the market can properly allocate costs."

You presuppose that there are sufficient externalities involved to materially alter the dynamic. That there are ANY such material costs is entirey without basis.

"We subsidize the hell out of oil..."

No. Actually, we do not. What subsidies there are should certainly be eliminated but they pale to insinificance next to the subsideis for alternatove fuels.

"...including your ridiculous invasion of Iraq (essentially, a failed resource-grab)."

I never supported the invasion of Iraq, but the assumption that it was an "oil grab" hasn't magically become less stupid over time.

"Besides, infrastructure takes time to build."

Okay. So? The poit is meaningless.

"For you, supply-side is a religion."

For me, applying sound economic principles (which are neither "supply-side" or otherwise) is always preferable to emotional uneducated ranting.

"Stay out of Drugs Limbaugh's medicine cabinet."

Ooooh. Great intellectual comeback. There is no economic basis for concern about the balance of payments otherwise known as "the trade deficit" - the only time it has been favorae was during the Great Depression and, oh boy, the deficit is expected to shrink in th near future. It is an accounting ficton (completely offset by a capital surplus).

The concept that individuals trading freely with one another (which wouldn't happen without mutual benefit) would result in us being shafted in the aggregate is logcally ridiculous.

Fletch
Yes, it is true.

Reagan lifted the 'Carter' grain embargo on the USSR. He then massively subsidized wheat shipments to the USSR making bread cheaper in Moscow than anywhere in the USA. Isn't that 'aiding and abetting' your enemies?

F1etch
Thanks for the laugh. It is fun seeing people both pretend to know something about economics and maintain that the actual economic situation is irrelevant to what changes should be made in policy.

In other columns you have pretendes you should be taken seriously, I am somewhat glad to see you have given that up. Even the Laffer Curves, which represented what little economic underpinnings there was to Reaganomics, is based on the fact that the economic situation is relevant to what policies should be pursued.

And, the idea that Reagan proposed small budgets that the Congress expanded is fantasy.

Don't misuse economic terms
"You presuppose price elasticity. If producer #1 raises his price, producer #2 may not, and wealth is thereby redistributed."

Do you get some sort of perverse pleasure out of misuing economic concepts? In a corporate tax environment, the taxes fall as an additional expense on all producers and the cost is passed through, as Mac pointed out, to consumers. Only when there is a differential application of taxes is the cost not passed on and that merely leads to other economic distrtions and lost jobs. Only in this latter case does elasticity matter and the less taxed entity raises prices anyway because he can do so to a lesser extent than the taxed entity and still bring in more business.

MacMoore
"The only money that the oil industry has ever gotten has been what they have earned on their own."

Poor analysis. When the Democrat-controlled congress took away some of their tax credits, they got the 'right' geared up claiming it was a tax increase. This would be like a welfare queen getting dropped off the welfare rolls and then claiming she got a tax increase.

The 40% tariff on Brazilian ethanol protects not only US corn farmers but oil companies from competition. The USA has a 'rigged' market in the energy supply sector that says oil will win.

Lon again
"Thanks for the laugh. It is fun seeing people both pretend to know something about economics and maintain that the actual economic situation is irrelevant to what changes should be made in policy."

Well, gee, maybe I should just return all that money I've made being an economist, then.

"Even the Laffer Curves, which represented what little economic underpinnings there was to Reaganomics, is based on the fact that the economic situation is relevant to what policies should be pursued."

Actually, it does no such thing. he Laffer Curve does not speak to altering economic fundamentals, but rather shows the theoretical point at which marginal taxation levels yield the most tax revenue. That does not change the fact that taxation above a certain level retards economic growth and that government spending cannot stimulate the economy - regardless of the economic conditions. That is why they ARE fundamentals.

"And, the idea that Reagan proposed small budgets that the Congress expanded is fantasy."

I did not say that Reagan submtted "small" budgets. I said that Congress requested more which is an objective fact.

r729
I am less interested in uninformed common sense than I am at actual information about the economic situation we face.

It is actually somewhat insulting to the idea of common sense to equate it with this kind of simpleminded nonsense.

In many situations tax cuts can provide effective stimulus to the economy, in some they do not address the actual weakness in the economy. In relatively few cases tax cuts actually pay for themselves, in most cases they add to deficits.

A similar thing can be said for spending. In an economy in which people are afraid to buy private enterprise is not going to ramp up production to meet nonexistent demand, not even with tax cuts in hand. In such cases, more stimulus can be provided through government spending than through tax cuts. Increased spending also, in rare case, can reduce defitics if they stimulate enough. But normally, not surprisingly they increase them.

In the real world one needs to balance the dangers of deficits and the various diffent anti-stimulus effects of either raising taxes or increasing spending and how these things are done.

Or one can just put on a dunce cap and proclaim that across the board tax cuts are the way to go regardless of the economic situation one faces, there is no reason to actually understand the situation one is addressing.

GT sayz:
Curly Reid

Dear SirL
Please refrain from using the name Curly to describe a marooon.
And besides, he was smarter than all congress put together.
Thank you for your compliance in this matter.

Curly's biggest fan.
Doc.

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

EVERYONE HAS A PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY....
LIBS JUST DON'T HAVE ANY FILM!

Government vs. Business
I don't think it is that business is actually smarter than government. "Business" consists of multiple entities engaged in competition. The "intelligence" is not based on an individual business but rather on the fact that free markets sort out the winners from the losers.

The government is a single entity. So, in a free market you have multiple opportunities (the individual businesses) to get it right while with government you only have one. Also, the goals of business are simply to be successful while the goals of government are diluted by other considerations, such as policy, public opinion, re-election, etc.

Nuance Is Liberal Language For Math
Zapdoodat offers, "When the Democrat-controlled congress took away some of their tax credits, they got the 'right' geared up claiming it was a tax increase."

What on earth are you babbling on about?

Only a Liberal would argue that raising taxes is not a tax increase.

Nonsense, of course.

Don Juan
Subject: Urinate on yourself
More discredited trickle-down economics....

Well ask the interns to take you to the bathroom, that's why they are there.
By the by, what is the name of that institution?
I may want to send you a Christmas card.
Merry Christmas to all!

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

EVERYONE HAS A PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY....
LIBS JUST DON'T HAVE ANY FILM!

The solution
We the people pay all taxes, and we are the only ultimate source of all tax revenue. Regardless where government initially collects the money, all tax money ultimately comes from us, the people, even though business has to pay thousands or millions of dollars at one time, and get it back from us one dollar at a time.
Since we the people are the one and only source of all tax revenue:
There should be only one tax to collect all tax revenue.
It should be a single, simple, fair, direct, graduated, individual, full-income tax levied on living persons for each level of government: One Tax and Done.
The best thing that government can do to help the country, the people, and even government, is to repeal all of the many hundreds, or thousands of existing taxes, fees, and charges. These taxes are the federal deficit. These taxes are the high price of everything. These tax eliminations are spending cuts. Every tax that is eliminated is a tax that we the people no longer have to pay. These taxes are the difference between the price we pay for health care and everything else, and the price we would pay if these taxes were repealed. Eliminating these taxes will remove them from the price paid for everything by everyone, including government.
One Tax and Done will provide many benefits to all, even government:
One Tax and Done will reduce the price paid for everything by one-third, While Democrats have Trillions of Dollars in new taxes written in bills awaiting action to quadruple the tax burden of all Americans, except for tax-exempt rich liberals.

Fletch
"I did not say that Reagan submitted "small" budgets. I said that Congress requested more which is an objective fact."

Not True. Reagan requested huge increases in defense spending. The only way he was willing to pay for this increased spending was to issue billions of dollars in US debt securities.

Great article, home run
Will only be argued against by those lacking understanding (Ellen) or with an emotional investment in leftist cliches (Don Juan).

Those believing we are "addicted to oil" are free to use whatever other energy souce they wish. No one will stop you. The reason they won't is because it would cost them too much so they wish to shift these costs to others.

The left always desires to coerce others to do things they themselves are unwilling to do voluntarily, eg, higher taxes, charity, reduced oil use, etc. Ellen and those like her are free to pool their own money to build parks, monuments, etc., if they truly believe it's a wise use of their money. I guarantee they won't!

Tax And Spend - Same Coin
Lon offers, "In relatively few cases tax cuts actually pay for themselves, in most cases they add to deficits."

Absolutely silly nonsense, of course.

The US Deficits are more kin to over-spending than to under-taxing.

Taxes are a burden on the economy. The lighter the burden, the more robust the economy. Of course, the economy needs safety to exist, so a tax is needed to finance safety. As our Mission Statement, the preamble to the Constitution, reads, ".... provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare ...". Not the other way around.

Let me know when the spending drops back to safety levels and I will let you know when taxes are well matched.

For example,
The price of basic oil is one-third (1/3) taxes. The price of gasoline at the pump is 45% taxes.

Business has people skilled in the fields of business. Government has people skilled in increasing taxes and regulating what they don't know or understand.

Sorry, Zap
But you simply lack the intellectual capcaity to engage in these discussions. In your efforts to rail against all things Republican, it has become increasingly apparent that you cannot grasp the simplest concepts.

When you say "Not true" the onus is upon you to demonstrate that I was wrong when said:

"I did not say that Reagan submitted 'small' budgets. I said that Congress requested more which is an objective fact."

You continue with:

"Reagan requested huge increases in defense spending. The only way he was willing to pay for this increased spending was to issue billions of dollars in US debt securities."

As any four year old can grasp, the size of Reagan's requests in no way undermines my statement. That what Congress ultimately sent him for signature was LARGER than his requests is, as I had said, an objective fact.

Go find some other sandbox to play in. Your legitimate outrage at government spending is undermined by your inablity to make a cogent argument or directly address the points made when you'd rather go off on some tangent.

Government Can't Be Efficient
Governments cannot be efficient as they have a unique disadvantage - they are not made up of the best people. Governments are made up of individuals selected not by their skill, but by popular election. The majority of any heterogenous population cannot be the expert on anything. Thus, those who select leaders are therefore the least qualified to make a decision on whatever the situation that a leader is being elected for. Even if all the other obsticles to a Government doing things the right way were removed, like the impossiblity if knowing what each individual in the society it governs wants at any given moment, the individuals selected are not of the calibre needed to make a rational decision.

All it takes to get elected is to convince a large population to give up votes. Skills, track records, etc are not required. Even if an individual could demonstraste the knowledge or skill required for such a large undertaking, the voting public wouldn't have the knowledge to understand the difference.

Then there's the problem of even attracting the right candidates. Politics pays less than what a good economist or business leader could make, thus immediately dissuading the most qualified in society from even running. This puts up further disadvantages as only the least qualified run for the position as they lack the ability to make it in the private sector.

Under all of these conditions, it is possible, but exceedingly rare, to actually end up with a competent person capable of running anything in a position of political power. Thus, our best chances are to never allow a political figure to have any power over an economy, via regulation or direct interference.

Don Juan
You are of course correct that Monopolies can provide SOME goods and services more effeciently. Go back and read your Econ text. The business conditions for which this is true represents about 5% of overall economic activity.

If our government stuck to only those areas (like defense and road building) we'd be fine. It's areas like Education and Health Care that are (will be) disasters when run as a monopoly.

Fletch
"But you simply lack the intellectual capcaity to engage in these discussions."

I dare say you are not an economist, but a lawyer with superb skills of rhetoric. How many years of law school do you have under your belt?

This is how Republicans get Supply-Side economics to work. By borrowing and spending, borrowing and spending and more borrowing and spending during the George Bush years has, in itself, had the ability to raise tax revenues.

Here's how,
For example, borrow $400 million from China, then, Congress decides we need a critical infrastructure investment project like "a bridge to some island, populated with 40 people, somewhere in Alaska."

The U.S.A. borrows the money, pays the workers, and the workers pay income tax. If the construction company is unlucky, it may have to pay some corporate tax too. This is one project, now multiply all the above by 14,287. Feel free to pick another country to borrow from.

Feel free to double the size of the Department of Education. Feel free to increase entitlement spending with Medicare Prescription (part D), and free to spend $150 billion on two wars, every year, and, in general, feel free to increase domestic spending across the board. Well, sorry, I lied, cut Amtrak, but who needs mass transit when the President tells us, "we are addicted to foreign oil as never before."

The USA went from a deficit of $5 to $11 trillion the past seven years. It only took 200 years to get to $5 trillion. This total outstanding debt works out to about $37,000 per person in the USA. Now those tax cuts do feel good at the moment, but is there any upper limit to our nation's credit card?

And Lon again
"I am less interested in uninformed common sense than I am at actual information about the economic situation we face."

Apparently not.

"In many situations tax cuts can provide effective stimulus to the economy..."

Actually, they are always stimulative though the stimulation is typically more than offset by unrestrained government spending.

"...in some they do not address the actual weakness in the economy."

No tax policy can address poor monetary policy.

"In relatively few cases tax cuts actually pay for themselves, in most cases they add to deficits."

That's true primarily because tax rates aren't typically above 50% in any cases anymore.

"A similar thing can be said for spending."

THAT statement is completely false. There is never a circumstance in which government spending yields economic benefit. There are cases when other benefits exceed the cost (national defense as an obvous example) but there is o such thing as stmulus from government spending. That notion has been completely discredited by actual history.

It is not deficits, per se, that are the problem. Spending must be paid for either by taxation (economically bad) or devaluation of the currency (equally bad). Taxation merely determines how ths burden falls (harmfully) on the economy.

"Or one can just put on a dunce cap and proclaim that across the board tax cuts are the way to go regardless of the economic situation one faces..."

Again, the issues being discussed relate to basic fundamentals. The problem is spending. That is what must be dealt with and it is not resolved by either more spending or higher taxes (which based on equilibrium deficit theory) actually results in MORE spending.

And Lon again
"I am less interested in uninformed common sense than I am at actual information about the economic situation we face."

Apparently not.

"In many situations tax cuts can provide effective stimulus to the economy..."

Actually, they are always stimulative though the stimulation is typically more than offset by unrestrained government spending.

"...in some they do not address the actual weakness in the economy."

No tax policy can address poor monetary policy.

"In relatively few cases tax cuts actually pay for themselves, in most cases they add to deficits."

True - primarily because tax rates aren't typically above 50% in any cases anymore.

"A similar thing can be said for spending."

THAT is completely false. There is never a circumstance in which government spending yields economic benefit. There are cases when other benefits exceed the cost (national defense) but there is o such thing as stimulus from government spending. That notion has been completely discredited by actual history.

It is not deficits, per se, that are the problem. Spending must be paid for either by taxation (economically bad) or devaluation of the currency (equally bad). Taxation merely determines how the burden falls on the economy.

"Or one can just put on a dunce cap and proclaim that across the board tax cuts are the way to go regardless of the economic situation one faces..."

Again, the issues being discussed relate to basic fundamentals. The problem is spending. That is what must be dealt with and it is not resolved by either more spending or higher taxes - which based on equilibrium deficit theory results in MORE spending.

Don Juan
F1etch, I would have failed this guy, too!
What is the problem with a liberal reading a first grade economics text and learning some buzzwords? Nothing, unless they think they know something about economics and become a "central planner", or worse, run for Congress!
I have no clue about this guy's intelligence (although I can speculate), but he is clearly undereducated.

Cut Non-Safety Spending To Fix Deficit
Zapdoodat offers, "The USA went from a deficit of $5 to $11 trillion the past seven years. It only took 200 years to get to $5 trillion. This total outstanding debt works out to about $37,000 per person in the USA. Now those tax cuts do feel good at the moment, but is there any upper limit to our nation's credit card?"

Yes. It should be no higher than the cost of our common defense as noted in the preamble to the USA Constitution.

Cut spending back to safety levels and the deficit will get corrected within a couple years.

Public Schools Dumb-Down Citizens
Walter as to Don Juan, "I have no clue about this guy's intelligence (although I can speculate), but he is clearly undereducated."

Actually, it is worse. One can not have been borne that dumb. It has got to have been learned. My guess is that he was Public School educated and, like too many citizens, never recovered.

What Is Treason According to Our Laws?
Is it treasonous to have sent our soldiers to fight against the Islamic terrorists who tortured, murdered and beheaded Americans and other civilians int heir countries and boast of it on video then have our U.S. Congress do nothing after allowing the misappropriation of our tax dollars and to continue to print more that hasn't been distributed to WE THE PEOPLE in the form of stimulus checks as promised but keep throwing at certain banking institutions who are not only taking U.S. tax bailout at our expense while we're losing our jobs and homes, but taking Shariah Law Financing which is tied to the Islamic terrorist leaders? Does anyone have an answer?

Fletch
"There is never a circumstance in which government spending yields economic benefit."

Please preach that to the goobers who think the US taxpayer should pay for a moon colony!

Fletch
Bottom line, Republican Supply-Side values always come with stimulative spending.

And as well, all Republicans are Socialists. They all believe in wealth redistribution.

Farm subsidies sky-rocketed under George Bush. That's wealth redistribution from blue states to red states. It's nigh time to get these teat suckers off the government sow.

Pork barrel spending redistributes wealth from people who have no political connections to people who do. Plain and simple. As we conservatives know pork-barrel spending increased under Republican rule from 2001-2006.

Liberals Want "Big Brother" To Decide
Zapdoodat offers as to taxing oil companies, "When the Democrat-controlled congress took away some of their tax credits, they got the 'right' geared up claiming it was a tax increase. This would be like a welfare queen getting dropped off the welfare rolls and then claiming she got a tax increase."

Absolutely insane.

Only a Liberal would consider entitlements the same as earnings.

According to your logic, all wealth belongs to the Government and "they" decide who gets how much. Well, Obama is your guy, for sure.

MacMoore
"Cut spending back to safety levels and the deficit will get corrected within a couple years."

How did the Republican Party do from 2001-2007?

What should the government do?
Someone asked Ludwig van Mises. He replied,"Nothing......Sooner"

Zapdoodat - Hysterics Defined
Zapdoodat offers, "And as well, all Republicans are Socialists. They all believe in wealth redistribution."

Hyperbolic nonsense.

Republicans generally follow a barter model, whereby one gets something for their money.

Obama offers wealth redistribution, whereby the Government tries to equalize wealth by diminishing one person's wealth for no other reason than to increase another person's wealth.

There is a difference.

Certainly, the Republicans have failed at their mission, but hyperbolic temper tantrums won't fix that.

MacMoore
"Obama offers wealth redistribution."

And Sidney McCain III? Is he not a Socialist, the Republican nominee of 2008.

John McCain said, "I'm going to spend $300 billion, and help homeowners who can't afford their mortgage."

Where's this money going to come from? From the taxpayer(Democrat-style) or just borrow more from China and other countries. (Republican-style)

I live in a condo with the mortgage paid off. Why should income be redistributed from me to someone living in a $500,000 house they can't afford?

Who would have paid for John McCain's Socialist mortgage bailout?

Zapdoodat Lost In Neverland
Zapdoodat asks as to spending, "How did the Republican Party do from 2001-2007?"

Lousy. So, what's your point?

MacMoore
"Republicans generally follow a barter model, whereby one gets something for their money."

Yeah, like a government handout!

Republicans have many brands of socialism. Of course, they don't overtly talk about it, but nevertheless, it comes in many forms. One form is pork-barrel spending. From 2001-2006, with Republicans (Bush, Hastert, Lott) at the helm in DC they ramped up pork barrel spending from 3,000 to 14,000 projects a year.

This Republican spending takes money from those who have no political connections and transfers that money to those who do have political connections. In sum, it is the ruthless expropriation of wealth from the American downtrodden political strata to those in the upper political strata.

I say ruthless, because it's feeding at the government trough, at the taxpayer's expense, in a time of war. Didn't these Republicans have no shame!

Zapdoodat In Wrong Blog World
Zapdoodat asks, "I live in a condo with the mortgage paid off. Why should income be redistributed from me to someone living in a $500,000 house they can't afford?"

Hey, don't ask me, go to Huffington Post, Obama or George Soros and ask them.

MacMoore
"lousy, So, what's your point?"

My point is that the core Republican value is to shift wealth to their constituents. Follow the money, and you will find out who their constituents are.

Some Want To Re-Live Yesterday
Zapdoodat cries, "I say ruthless, because it's feeding at the government trough, at the taxpayer's expense, in a time of war. Didn't these Republicans have no shame!"

So, what?

The Democrats are in charge, now. Hyperventalating over yesterday's news is like staying at the bar after everyone else has left.

Temper Tantrums Are Not Sound Arguments
Zapdoodat offers, "the core Republican value is to shift wealth to their constituents. Follow the money, and you will find out who their constituents are."

That's just plain stupid.

No where in the Republican platford or articles of mission does it say such nonsense.

Results are not always products of the mission. Sometimes, the results are the product of multiple missions interferring with each other.

Walter
It's simple really. They have read the ocassional Paul Krugman column - a man who was once a respected (albeit Keynesian) economist but has long since abandoned even the pretense of adhering to economic principles in order to bash all things Republican - and think that they have learned something.

Ah, well.

Repeating history.
Those who believe that spending trillions during a recession is the answer to solving
our problem are believing a fantasy. Franklin
Roosevelt tried this in the 30's, in the attempt to stop the Great Depression. He failed. If it weren't for World War II, the country would have gone bankrupt.

Good column John
I see F1etch, Mac Moore, and Chuck are trying to educate the trolls. Good posts all. Even though it is pointless to attempt to educate zapdoodat or Don Juan, there are probably many readers who fail to post that learn from such posting. Keep up the good work.

Ron:
One man with courage is a majority.
Thomas Jefferson

Its Not
Its not that the intelligensia is not aware of all the manipulation and government intervention in the past and what it has done..........

The Intelligensia chooses to ignore it.

F1etch
I have absolutely enjoyed reading this thread and watching you mop the floor with Don Juan and Zappy.

Please keep up the good work

What a Crock of Sh*t
Hawkins, you are an idiot plain and simple. A conservative telling a new administration what to do economically is a joke and should really be a crime after what Conservative politics have done to this country over the last 8 years, and really going all the way back to policies of the holy grail of conservatism, Reagan (what a fraud, we're still seeing the fruit of all his deregulation and other policy blunders).

Conservatives, supposed Americans and patriots, like you should be tried for treason and hung for the bullsh*t Right-Wing/Neo-con propaganda you spread and defraud everyday American people with.

You and your fellow conservatives live in a fantasy world where there is no accountability, only hypocrisy. And I don't know when you will all get it through your thick skulls that supply-side economics simply increase the wealth of the rich at the expense of taking wealth from the middle-class and poor.

I just scanned through the posts


F1etch Wins....hands down..

Libs...move on to the next blog........

Here is an average democrat's thinking
This article is timely, but I'm afraid it's too late. The inmates have broken out of the asylum and are now spreading out all over the internet.

One such inmate, "Ban The GOP", may seem like he's too extreme, but his column here shows what we are facing. I've linked to one article where he articulates what the average democrat would like to see in an Obama Administration. This is just one of his MANY posts that horrifically show us the true nature of most the left wing people in this country.

I normally don't post links to other sources outside of Townhall, but if this is what we face, we must...MUST!...rethink our resolve.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/BanTheGOP/39


Shaam
Republican politics....not conservative principles.

You sound like someone took advantage of you.....so are you waiting around for the Obama surge? Blago your hero? In love with Rahm Ratfinger?

Tell us Sham...what ails you?

Not the Average Democrats thinking
A blog post by on random democrat out millions, does not constitute the thinking of the average democrat.

If ALL those policies were actually from THE ACTUAL DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION, i would buy your worthless argument.

Where's the love
Hey Vulture Unless you've been living under a rock, or Iraq maybe since that seems to be the new conservative playground and endless pot of treasure, Conservatism = Republicans.

And you really want to get into it with me and politicians???

Bush your savior? Larry Craig your pastor? Stevens your pork barreler? How about Abromoff? Delay? Still backing Coleman? How the Wiesel Cheney? Rumsfield, old Paulie boy? Do I really need to go on?

Please, if you're going argue a point, make an argument that you can actually stand on for more than 5 seconds before you get knocked off.

Johnah
"Here is an average democrat's thinking"

Oxymoron.......

Think of Moonbats as 1/2 of the participants in a dogfighting ring. They fight, fight, fight...without even knowing what it is they are fighting for. They just see something they don't like.........mostly they are the ones getting their throats chewed, though.

Then when its said and done, they go back into their corner and expect a reward from their master......still not knowing what it was they were fighting for......

Sham
What you will find here is that there are few who supported Bush's lack of discipline on fiscal policies.....Conservative principles on fiscal responsibility, limited government intervention, small government, free markets, low taxation. Power in the individual....government is not the answer.....

Iraq? Don't show your stripes so early here.........try to make some sense first.

But, make no mistake.......liberal inverventionism has tanked the economy time after time......

As for the politicians.......yea....on both sides right?

However its the Republicans who are hounded out of office......When is Nancyrexia going to drop the hammer on Charlie?

Moonbats?? They're congratulated, fight to the bitter end, deny, deny, deny.....hell if not for the blue dress.....poor monica would have been deported as a right wing plant.....

Frank, Dodd, Raines, And all the Race hustling congressmen......Those men perpetrated the biggest fraud of the 20th century against the american people by failing to uphold their official duties of office. All for some liberal squeezy policy giving loans to people who never qualified for them to begin with.......And Raines has how many millions????

Spare me your faux outrage.......wipe your screen down, It has spittle on it.

F1etch
F1letch, don't give up; it is obvious that Don Juan has spent more time on romance novels than economics. I think they are part of the group that uses the internet to attack and frustrate reason and education.

A car czar is an idea right out of the Communist playbook. I doubt if we can say that economic ignorance is congress' problem; they are mostly committed to their self-interest: re-election, salary, gifts, status, power.

Shaan

Have you taken your meds today?

Anyone from Illinois that thinks they have Democrat solutions and answers - definition of insanity?


Forrest Gump wisdom ...
Stupid is as Stupid does! Stupid = our federal government mainly most of Congress! IMHO!

With bail out layoffs
Bank of America has proved what will happen even with billions in a loan. The layoffs in the auto industry will continue because people will not be able to use the homes they are upside down in to get car loans.

Retail is being hit with layoffs because people are afraid to buy.

Should we build the nuclear power plants that will give us clean energy? Should we improve roads and bridges? Or should we put more money into bailouts of those who put the most money into the pockets of politicians?

Let The Economy Free - Mitigate Taxes!
Allen asks, "Should we build the nuclear power plants that will give us clean energy? Should we improve roads and bridges? Or should we put more money into bailouts of those who put the most money into the pockets of politicians?"

None of the above.

Taxes, nearly by definition, are a burden to an economy. So, the best thing for a weakened economy is to rid as much of its taxes as possible .... give it air! ... let it breath!

How about instead of tax and spend, let's roll back taxes, keep as little money in the Government's hands as possible, let bankruptcies happen and let entrepreneurs loose to attract Consumer approval and drive wealth back up.

Economic Lessons
College quotes Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau. Testifying before the House Ways & Means Committee in May of 1939, the FDR ally and acolyte did not sugarcoat it:
"We are spending more money than we have ever spent before and it does not work. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started and an enormous debt to boot."

Homework
Well, I'm all for the free market. But if it's a matter of putting people to work here, or putting people to work in, say, Southeast Asia? I'd say put 'em to work here.

Some people have it in their minds that our workforce is crap, and that any starving, servile slob in the middle of some village will work harder than we will. Well...

That is true, when we preach the rewards of capitalism, then steal it away in taxes. Who wants to work for people who won't? On the other hand, who wants to work for virtually nothing? Little pay, bad hours. Some rewards for capitalism! And then they sell off our crappy jobs to overseas labor, and invite outsiders in to do our work for virtually nothing - and tell us it's our own fault? Where is the capitalism in that?

The problem is, many people in business want to send ALL of our jobs overseas, and there won't be anyone here working that's making enough to buy those products. Employers are being encouraged to do it, every day, in a sort of group-think/group-act. It's a mass-emigration of jobs, based upon fantasies of endless cheap labor. And so we have Heparin poisoning, and worse to come.

That's not capitalism: that's the sound of a herd that's being driven over the cliff. We're only hearing the "splat" now - now that portfolios are being affected by it.

John Hawkins...deep thinker
Now let me make sure I have this straight: Hawkins already blaming non-president BO and pretending that a bunch of GOP ideas might be the solution?

Um...Johnny, your squad has been on the mound for the past eight years and controlled general manager of the team up until 2006. How did that turn out?

Not sure that the GOP is exactly the right folks to be listening to per financial advice. The Bush/Paulson battery (not sure who was the catcher and who was the pitcher) tossed $700 billion at Wall Street just for saying "GIMME" and have monitored it so closely that about $300 billion is gone and nobody seems to know where it went or what it did. Go figure.

But hey, let's get those evil blue collar guys to cut their pay in half if they expect $14 billion for their industry. Fair is fair. Right John?


And speaking of those Economic Lessons
that Hawkins mentioned, looks like some folks on Wall Street just don't get it.

Seems that some clever old white shirt named Bernie Madoff has admitted to burning around $50 billion (yeah, that is a "b") for his clients. Not sure why he doesn't qualify for some of Paulson's free cash. Must not be in the club.

But again, the good news there is that Madoff only has about 20 or less clients who are looking for their cash.

Hell, Paulson gave the BofA $15 Billion and they are planning to lay off 35,000 workers. By that billions to clients/workers screwed or laid off ratio...Paulson should hire Madoff!

Tom - Too Clever By Half
tom offers, "Not sure that the GOP is exactly the right folks to be listening to per financial advice."

Actually, John Hawkins quotes famous conservative economists, not GOP. The advise is sound. It is a shame that Bush never followed it.

If by GOP, you mean Bush, then we all agree not to listen to him on economics. Heck, Obama, on economics, is working really hard to be Bush II. But, I think that has more to do with the fact that he has no brain of his own.

Mac Moore
Hawkins also quoted Milton Friedman who advised Ronald Reagan who probably did more long term harm to our nation's economy than any other president.

I agree that Obama appears to be leaning toward Bush-like policy and that could be tragic. But we have to wait and see exactly what kind of decisions he makes.

Tom
Hawkins also quoted Milton Friedman who advised Ronald Reagan who probably did more long term harm to our nation's economy than any other president.


Jezus man....what is the color of your koolaid??


Please don't tell me that Carter was your hero?

Mr. Hawkins - You missed one
==

"Taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed."

-- Robert A. Heinlein

==

tom - On financial advice
--
Say tom that he is:

"Not sure that the GOP is exactly the right folks to be listening to per financial advice."


True. As in the past, the Republicans had screwed the pooch.

Also as in the past, the Democrats have raped (and will continue ever more viciously to sodomize) the poor puppy.


So are you folks ready to listen to us libertarians now?






=====
"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

-- P.J. O’Rourke

Greed
Capitalism is based upon greed. Not necessarily a bad thing when you live in a culture where everyone is greedy. However, someone in this deal is going to lose. More often than not, it will be the vast majority of individuals that are not on the top. This is why we should not be surprised by all of the sudden need for 'bailouts'. After all, what can you expect from a country that values (in dollars)their ballplayers much more than their teachers and nurses?
One thing to remember in all of this; If the unionized autoworkers are making &70 plus an hour, imagine what the 'management' is making. Same is true for ballplayers and their owners. I say, more power to that autoworker and owner to get the bailout. That is what it means to be American. Ooh-rah.

Dear Stacey .....
you are the victim of a way of thinking that is not consistant with 'all' realities.
Let's assume then that you are correct ....
in the end you are eternally the victim and someone is going to capitalize on your ever diminishing resources, be it capitalist operator of industry or government functionary.
The only time that you are the victim is when the government is accessed by lobbyists as the government is ever expanding its control of every aspect of your life at the behest of whomever the best bidder is at the moment.

Stacy - FL
Greed is a result of socialism too.

The Puritans tried it when they arrived on the US shore for example. Great concept until applied to reality, everyone works to fill the stores, only problem is - people started to figure out they didn't have to work to reap the benefits. Why work hard if your going to get the same whether you work hard or not? In this case the greed was; greed of slothfulness. It caused all sorts of problems until they adopted a capitalistic plan.

Capitalism rewards hard work. Teachers are a wonderful example of why government should stay out of the private sector. K-12 Grade schools are federally run protected by unions and the teacher pay is STILL crappy. Privatization of schools would hire a teacher place them in specialized schools which would create competition with other schools for students, in turn will create better schools, better pay for GOOD teachers, and expanded educational knowledge for all.

The better the school -- the more demand for it.

Health care is a mess because of silly lawsuits and over regulation. Again the blame lies with government.

Your argument likely will be "but it's not fair" that some can afford the better schools. I disagree - it is fair. Just as it is fair for most of us not to go to Harvard, etc... we either didn't qualify or we don't have the money - so? There are many other great schools to got to - it's no the end of the world.

Some work hard to eat steak, some work not-so-hard and eat hamburger. It's up to the individual to figure out their own degree of effort in the pursuit of happiness.

In every example, capitalism is self correcting if left alone to work with out socialistic meddling in the name of fairness.

Nature is not fair - capitalism mimics nature.






To cliff
you state: in the end you are eternally the victim and someone is going to capitalize on your ever diminishing resources, be it capitalist operator of industry or government functionary.

Not me Cliff, but someone, yes. Greed is the factor. For one to succeed, someone else has to go belly up.
What would have happened to the banking industry without the bailout? Thousand would have lost most everything. The few at the top would have lost continued access to their income but would have definitely walked away with millions each. Greed gave them what they earned, greed caused them to fail, greed enabled them to walk away unscathed. For them, greed was a very good thing indeed.

To Jo
You state: Some work hard to eat steak, some work not-so-hard and eat hamburger. It's up to the individual to figure out their own degree of effort in the pursuit of happiness.

Effort has less to do with it than motivation. What motivates a person? Many times that is greed.
I know many people who work very little and makes lots of money off of other people working very hard.
I know many others that work very hard every day of their lives and can barely afford that hamburger.
Greed told those Puritans that they shouldn't have to work for everyone while everyone doesn't work.


To Jo
You state: Your argument likely will be "but it's not fair" that some can afford the better schools.

Fair and capitalism do not mix. It is not fair to have someone working their life away, building a business and home for their family in a community only to have it succumb to "going out of business" because the big corporation built a Walmart next door. It is happening all over the country. It is not fair, but it is capitalism at its finest. I win, you lose. The more I win, the more I have and the less you have (there is only so many resources). Barnum was right. There is a sucker born every minute. Capitalism only needs to convince him to buy HIS stuff instead of some one else stuff.

To Stacy
Economics is not a zero-sum game. When you bought the sandals you wear at the beach in Fl, was the store greedy in asking you to exchange something of value for them rather than giving them to you for free, or were you the greedy one and waited for them to go on sale so you could get a great deal?

When we make a transaction, we trade something that someone else finds value in, to get something we find value in...everybody wins.

There are cases where that does not apply, such as #1)taxes/entitlements/gov't intervention/price controls/rationing, #2)a great disparity in knowledge of value between transacting parties (selling a lemon), #3)and more morally when there are shortages of life sustaining items. There are a handful of others.
(note that the current financial "crisis" is a mostly a product of #1, and to a lessor degree #2). "greed" is a subjective judgment and only serves as a personal attack.

If you really believe that for someone to succeed, someone else must fail, you live a miserable life...either always feeling guilty for stomping someone else, or always feeling the victim of those greedy people.

Good luck with that.

Stacy - FL 4:43
Fair and capitalism do not mix. It is not fair to have someone working their life away, building a business and home for their family in a community only to have it succumb to "going out of business" because the big corporation built a Walmart next door. It is happening all over the country. It is not fair, but it is capitalism at its finest. Stacy

================
My entire point was fair and capitalism are not intended to work. I don't want things fair. It's not natural. If I work hard and I make money why should I have to support people who don't work as hard as me? (And don't give me the "greedy" speech or tell me "some can't do this on their own" crap.) I'm self made - I know it can be done. I went from rags to riches with the invention of the computer. Free education at the end of my finger tips, all I had to do was study my chosen industry.

Anyhow -- how wonderful Wal mart is. All the jobs Wal mart provides! Now if we could only get the government to get their noses out of corporations who make the products FOR Wal mart, then we wouldn't need to be importing most of them from China. This would create even MORE jobs here in the USA!

But you contend Wal mart's creation of *thousands of jobs* should be terminated to save a few hundred? Are you suggesting that we ought to limit free markets? That the government ought to tell us how much success we are allowed?? Wow -- not me.

This is not our way. Our way is to find niche markets. I have friends who can't compete with Wal mart ammunition in their gun shop, so they don't bother selling that ammo - they sell what wal mart doesn't have. They found their niche market.

I suppose now you will cry foul on Wal mart Wages or something. No need to -- no one is forced to work at Wal mart, now are they?

Freedom means the freedom to be rich or poor, it's your choice. Wal Mart isn't the problem - limiting success is.




Stacy - FL 4:43
The more I win, the more I have and the less you have (there is only so many resources).Stacy

--------

Not true. If it were we'd be out of food sources, out of trees to build with, out of sand for concrete etc...

Many resources are grown, raised or recycled.

All people win with innovation. We are no longer bashing our cloths on river rocks, cooking over a open fire, or traveling by horse and buggy. We came into the industrial revolution as we are coming into green technology revolution.

All be cause of business' like Wal Mart. See a need fill a need, makes people rich. Wal Mart saw the need for lower prices for the less fortunate. People save millions because of Wal Mart. I say go Wal mart! Live the American dream.

BOO Stacy - YAY Jo
"Fair" is a subjective judgment. Capitalism is "fair" because it allows any participating party to decide the definition of a "fair" transaction and to walk away if they don't think they are getting a "fair" deal.

As for your hamburger example, if those folks working very hard and can barely afford that hamburger, no one is making them work for that "greedy" person who gave them a job. It is up to them if they want to trade their labor for that check. If the trade is so bad, why are they making it? OTOH, if it's so easy to setup a business, build a customer base, provide jobs and make lots of money while doing no work and laughing at all their sucker workers, why don't you do it and employ these people and pay them better? Oh right, maybe it's not so easy.

If they are REALLY being taken advantage of, get together and sue the owner of the business, alert the authorities & police or the press, contact your city council or local elected officials, or unionize and strike. Don't sit and whine about it here, do something about it if you care so much.

Or you could vote your new socialist/communist masters and rulers (and czars) into office and wait for your bread and games, which I suspect you are already doing.

Don't forget though, when you do, you are no longer a citizen but a subject.

Fabby and Jo
Don't worry Fabby, I am a very happy person. I have been blessed beyond measure. I constantly think of Julie Andrews in the Sound of Music where she sings that song..."...somewhere in my childhood, I must have done something good" because I have been so blessed. However, to the casual observer, my life may not seem so. Just a matter of priorities and what one values I guess.
And Jo, I LOVE Walmart. Having raised five children, it was a God send. My point is, having Walmart eat up all of the mom and pop stores in small communities is capitalism. I wasn't putting a value judgment on them, only stating the obvious.
Greed may be subjective, but usually only to those that feel guilty about it.

Greed
Stacy I wrote a response to you but TH won't keeps kicking it back. This is a test. If successful I will try to re-post it.

On greed ... Isn't it greed to want other peoples money? The politicians of the left are greedy, they want to take it in tax, then give it to those who didn't work for it. And the poor are greedy for the handout, are they not?

Most "rich" give to charity freely, this will be reduced (or stop) if they are robbed by the government. Legislating the rich's money won't make them more generous, and it won't make the poor rich. No more than a country has ever taxed their way into prosperity.

Stacy - FL 1
Effort has less to do with it than motivation. What motivates a person? Many times that is greed.
I know many people who work very little and makes lots of money off of other people working very hard.
I know many others that work very hard every day of their lives and can barely afford that hamburger.
Greed told those Puritans that they shouldn't have to work for everyone while everyone doesn't work. Stacy
---

Stacy the reason for Motivation usually isn't greed. I was motivated to shop for Toys for Tot's the other day, for example. I am also motivated to become wealthy because I want to leave something to my kids when I pass on to make their lives better than mine was - no greed there, I sure can't take it with me.

People who work very little and make money are smart workers wouldn't you say? Intelligence does play a role. It takes intelligence to decide to make choices of wealth.

continued...

Stacy - FL 2
Clearly those who work hard and can't afford the hamburger are in a rut, they must recognize the rut then make changes to get out of the rut. For example, sitting at home watching "Entertainment Tonight" after work, in effort to live vicariously through Hollywood stars, instead of utilizing public library computers to learn new skills isn't the way to wealth.

Greed of slothfulness was my point now wasn't it? Today we have greed of slothfulness as well. We also have class envy. People don't like the rich -- why? Because those who envy are greedy for other peoples money in the name of "equality and fairness". The poor have been told that the rich are "lucky" -- which is not true. Most rich people I know WORKED for it. So who is greedy the rich who worked or those who haven't worked and want the riches money handed to them for free?

Again nature is not fair, it is not natural for all of us to be the same. Our differences makes us better, creates a learning environment, this includes wealth. Want to get wealthy? Then talk to someone who is. You can learn much!

Last note Stacey
And Jo, I LOVE Walmart. Having raised five children, it was a God send. My point is, having Walmart eat up all of the mom and pop stores in small communities is capitalism. Stacy

==================
I love Wal Mart too, I have 3 boys I hear you.
No one wants business to fail. However it is important to remember that Wal mart employs many people. More than the jobs lost. This we never seem to hear about in the news. It's always about "lost jobs" not job creation. The media did a good job demonizing Wal Mart, that's for sure.

Capitalism works very well if it is not tampered with. Socialistic cogs in the capitalism wheel created this mess. Capitalism can not be effective with government meddling. For example the financial market catalyst was caused by governments instance on lending to those who couldn't pay the loans back. Of course there are those who took advantage of this rule, still the catalysis was government interference.

Government isn't supposed to be involved to the degree they are in our lives. Our forefathers would not be happy. Abortion, Gay rights, health care, welfare, energy, even public schools etc... not their job according to our constitution. Read amendment number 10.


oxymoron: government oversight
The same government whose job it was to oversee Fannie and Freddie now want to oversee automakers and job creation programs. Had Fannie's and Freddie's books been open to the public the current crisis would have been avoided years ago. Instead we were told by the very politicians that want to fix the auto industry that these companies were sound and strong.

Taxes... Fair or Not
It is clear that in America serious reform needs to occur. The idea that we can continue to spend taxpayer's money for private corporations has got to be trumped by reason. My family works hard. We have debt. We could appreciate a bail-out from the feds. However, they would rather bail-out banks that used their bail-out money to buy other banks. The bail-outs must stop! If they don't, they never will! Companies that make foolish decisions must suffer the consequences for their own actions. Let them file Chapter 11.

Okay, THAT'S just stupid
"Hawkins also quoted Milton Friedman who advised Ronald Reagan who probably did more long term harm to our nation's economy than any other president."

Don't confuse Reagan with Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Wrong- headed, Stacey - 1
Capitalism is based upon self-interest - the exact same se;f-interest that induces someone to get a job in order to feed himself and his family, give those he loves a decent standard of living, and - as a result - contribute to the society for the benefit of everyone.

The notion that someone must "lose" is nonsensical. It is NOT a zero-sum game. That self-interest results in wealth CREATION that makes us all as a group better off. This is what has created the wealthiest and most dynamic middle class (not to mention the wealthiest "poor") in the history of the planet right here in the US. Arguing that everyone but those at the top lose is so contrary to reality as to be nothing less than delusional.

"This is why we should not be surprised by all of the sudden need for 'bailouts'."

No such "need" exists and the conditions leading to their request were created entirely by government.

"After all, what can you expect from a country that values (in dollars)their ballplayers much more than their teachers and nurses?"

I dunno. Common sense? It is not just demand (which is very great for teachers) but SUPPLY (which is also very great for teachers) which determines price. What you are saying is forget everyone else's choices, you would impose your own value scheme on everyone else. How totalitarian of you.

"One thing to remember in all of this; If the unionized autoworkers are making &70 plus an hour, imagine what the 'management' is making."

Ah, the great liberal canard: "we know better what management deserves because anyone can do better or else the companies would never be in difficulty" It's just to infantile to believe.

Wrong-headed Stacey - 2
"Same is true for ballplayers and their owners."

When you can hit a major league curve ball, perhaps you'll have credibility on the issue.

"I say, more power to that autoworker and owner to get the bailout. That is what it means to be American."

Last time I checked, "what it means to be an American" had something to do with individual liberty, not government handouts. What history did you take?

”For one to succeed, someone else has to go belly up.”

According to your theory, Stacey, we all still live in caves, there are fewer than a billion people on the planet and we are desperately fighting over the same few limited resources because wealth can’t be created and, thus, no more exists than did before history began. Gee, you MUSt be right. Sheesh!

“What would have happened to the banking industry without the bailout?”

Restructuring. Continued operation without a huge cost to taxpayers. Perhaps “thousands” of investors (not depositors) may have “lost everything” but the hundreds of MILLIONS of Americans would have been unscathed except by the impact on the economy the government already created.

“Greed gave them what they earned, greed caused them to fail, greed enabled them to walk away unscathed.”

Actually, years of successful management got them their salaries, manipulation of the money supply created the situation that caused the failures and none of them are walking away unscathed. It is quite clear you haven’t the slightest idea what you are talking about. – not a surprise at this point.

Wrong-headed Stacey - 3
“Effort has less to do with it than motivation.”

Having dispensed with the imbecility that it is “greed” that motivates under capitalism, let’s address the “effort” question. Actually, what determines success is the provision of something society desires to a degree that others cannot. People wish to be entertained watching the best baseball athletes compete so they are willing to spend, say, $50 a ticket a few times a year for that pleasure. They pay vastly more sums than that personally on education either in taxes or directly in tuition because they value education more. BUT the education dollars go to wide range of administrators, teachers, counselors, etc. (maybe we need a bigger mix of teachers, hmmm?) but there are only a handful of A-Rods and Miguel Cabrera’s and Big Papis that can provide that relatively inexpensive entertainment.

“I know many people who work very little and makes lots of money [given your demonstrated lack of judgment, the credibility of that assessment is essentially nonexistent] off of other people working very hard.
I know many others that work very hard every day of their lives and can barely afford that hamburger.”

The concept of “exploitation” that you have embraced has been completely discredited as pure Marxian drivel.

Wrong-headed Stacey - 4
Justice and capitalism are interdependent. Fairness is an entirely subjective assessment. It may not be fair that I come down with high blood pressure, diabetes, chemical depression, high cholesterol, asthma, dishydrotic eczema, etc. It is, however, not unjust that I do not have the right to expect someone else to bear the cost of treating such ailments. Likewise, it is not unjust that the friends, neighbors and acquaintances of the owners of the family business determine that it is their family’s best interests to buy the less expensive products from Wal-Mart – even if that means the family business will fail. Would you demand that everyone pay more for their products so that the less well-off members of the community subsidize the family business?

“Barnum was right. There is a sucker born every minute.”

We know. There’s no need for you to demonstrate it with your posts.

Not zero-sum #1
"Greed may be subjective, but usually only to those that feel guilty about it."

It can't be both as you're implying here. Anyone can define it however they want to (and they do), so as a logical point of argument it merely serves to cast someone else is a bad light among yourself and your audience in an attempt to weaken their argument. Do I think some are "greedy"...sure, but that is not related to the failures of capitalism (or any system) since folks on the "greedy" spectrum exist in any type of economic structure.

As for your argument of win for one = fail for another....I believe this to be a very important point that many people don't understand at all, so I'll jump on Jo's bandwagon here (and others this morning it appears).
Yes, there are finite resources for particular commodities which create scarcity. But economies also create value** where there was none. It's not as if someone discovered a mine full of 10,000 washing machines and when we run out, no one will be able to get a new one. Someone who constructed the operating washing machine created something that is worth more than it's parts. The same can be said of a gold mine....no gold -> then mine -> gold. Value created (actually found, but the distinction is irrelevant).

In an economy, there is value creation, i.e. manufacturing, mining, construction, engineering, etc. On the other end is the financial side, which does not create value, it trades the value and the debt that finances the creation of value. They serve each other.

To argue this is zero-sum is a logical failure.

**Value is also a subjective measure....of worth. Perceived value if you will. If it weren't, it really would be a zero-sum game, and we'd still be living as hunter gatherers.


Not zero-sum #2
Western economies have been heavily debt loaded, rather than even value / debt loaded. This is what has sustained the continued rapid growth rates of industries and led to the boom / bust style rhythms we’ve seen (and led to the relative high standard of living the west has sustained). The monkeying of fiscal and monetary policy, taxation, international trade & politics of governments also plays a large role in the boom – bust. (See Fannie & Freddy, which are socialistic/communistic entities which skewed the debt market)

The trouble with a debt loaded structure is that debt finance requires continued confidence that the debt will be re-payed. When the confidence weakens, the pressure on the entire economy increases incredibly fast and value creation is affected since it relies on the debt financing to create the value (and there is more debt than value). Downward spirals can result, which is what everyone is terrified of currently.

Capitalism’s strength is that value creation is not hindered by social policy. The problem with social policy is that it is a political game, which by definition is zero sum. This is the weakness of socialism and communism.

Cheers to all in this thread. Thanks to Stacy for starting the discussion.

F1etch & Fabby are correct
Great posts. I think Stacy is an intelligent person, just misguided. Did you notice the argument was about "Wal Mart" vs, mom and pop business? This was no more than a page out of the lefts talking points.

This is the problem with much of America. Many hear a story that fits their ideology then run with it. Truth be darned.

Capitalism has made the USA the the most prosperous in the world. The left has a campaign to convince people prosperity is "bad & greedy" -- what they fail to recognize if that without the rich the poor would suffer a great deal more. How many would starve or be at constant war if America was greedy and didn't give foreign aid or military assistance?

To posters who hate the rich and see them as greedy, I challenge you to explain how the poor will create jobs "from the bottom up"?

BO is proposing government creation of jobs, do you REALLY want this? Do you want to be controlled and run by a government? If so I suggest you read about Nazi Germany or the USSR.

You are asking for your own slavery, and you don't even know it.




to f1etch
You behavior is very rude. There is no need to be nasty and name calling. You don't have to agree with me, you don't have to be nice either. That is your choice. You chose to be mean over just disagreeing.

To Jo
You state: The left has a campaign to convince people prosperity is "bad & greedy"

I don't know about the left, but I do not see prosperity as bad. Greedy, yes. Take away the negative connotation of 'greed'. I am not saying greed is bad or good. I am saying it is the root of capitalism . And I am all for capitalism. In an ideal world, everyone would work to their best ability and no one would be in need. You and I both know we do not live in that world. Wanting to prosper, wanting to better oneself is not (in my opinion) a 'bad' thing, but it is hypocritical to say it does not contain, at some part, greed. The owners of Walmart obviously want (desire) more than they need. They have to do this at the expense of someone else (their workers and competition). Yes, they provide jobs. However, if everyone who worked for them decided they too wanted the money Walmart makes, there would not be anyone left to work for Walmart. For capitalism to work, there has to be a segment of the population that does not 'prosper' in order for others to prosper.

To Jo part 2
As an economic system, even capitalism needs (unfortunately)government intervention. Why? because we are all greedy. Otherwise, we would have the Walmarts of the country (poor Walmart, do not mean to pick on them, only using them as an example) hiring young children at very small wages to work 18 hour days. Would you and I stop shopping at Walmarts were they to do this? Maybe. Would everyone? No. Would enough of the population stop shopping there to close them down or make them change their ways? Sadly, probably not because there are far too many just trying to feed and clothe their own to worry about such things.
I see government as a necessary 'evil' to combat the human condition. However, the government, being made up of humans (ok, that is sometimes debatable), needs to be put 'in check' itself by the people it governs. Unfortunately, it sometimes runs amok.

To Fabby
You state: As for your argument of win for one = fail for another.

I used to work for a very wonderful organization. We received a bonus every year. The amount of that bonus was determined by different criteria (work performance, etc). But the company had a total dollar amount to give their employees. The better one performed, the higher the bonus. For me to receive the high bonus I did, I had to outperform someone else. The person who did not perform as well as me may have 'needed' the money much more than me, but by working harder than them, I received part of their potential bonus. Now, did I, knowing that I did not 'need' that extra money and that someone else did, give it to them just because I worked (maybe even just slightly)harder? No. Couch it in any term you like...I deserved it because I worked harder, they could have gotten more if they worked harder, etc...bottom line is greed. I took something I did not 'need' from someone who did 'need' it. But in our culture, I can feel OK about it because I worked for it and the other person did not. I 'deserved' it. It would not have been fair to give us the same amount since I worked harder.

Nonsense. Again.
To repair the American infrastructure
would not involve 'make work' jobs.
No one is suggesting digging holes and filling them in. Your characterization of Obama is
typical right-wing garbage, pure bull.

And quote Ronnie all you want. He's the man who turned America into a debtor nation
and was proud of it. All the while expanding the size of the Federal government.

Education is a wonderful thing.

Stacey - FL
For capitalism to work, there has to be a segment of the population that does not 'prosper' in order for others to prosper. Stacy

====================================

Exactly correct. That segment is 1) people with limited intelligence or ambition (or both) who do not try to attain knowledge or wealth. 2) Younger people who are starting out. 3) immigrants assimilating to our life style.

Again just as in nature we must have light and dark, right and wrong, love and hate, the strong and the weak. Capitalism is no different. If we all were strong (wealthy) or all weak (poor) we could not survive economically. Someone has to be the guy who stocks Wal mart, some one has to work at McDonalds.

In capitalism the worker has a choice -- to stay at that job or to seek better employment. What you are suggesting is that we keep everyone equal. This is communism. Theoretically a great idea on paper. But not compatible in reality with human nature. It makes people slothful.

As happened this last election, people are discovering that they can vote in politicians that can steal prosperity (property) form the rich and give it to the poor. Wealth redistribution. The people essentially voted for the government to decide how much income is excessive. This is dangerous. The government given this power can eventually lower the standard to $20,000 instead of $200,000.

The poor have voted to enslave themselves. BO plan to create jobs?? To do "public works" projects. The poor will not get richer digging holes on the side of the road.

Our forefathers were very wise, they knew a pure democracy would not work. Mob rule never does. This is why we live in a republic, where ever "area" has a representative that speaks for the people. We have individual pursuit of happiness; liberty and capitalism and it's made us a great country for 232 years.

A Thought On Wal-Mart and Fletch
Sam Walton didn't start out with giant superstores all over the countryside...he began, just as nearly every successful business does, with a single store which he made profitable...he had to compete with Sears, JC Penny, Wards etc. back then, just as "mom and pops" must compete with Wal Mart or Target today...even now, somewhere out there lurks a "mom and pop", ready to grow into something big, just as Sam Walton did...it's a free country, and Sam built a huge business by providing shoppers with products they wanted at prices they chose to pay...

If you read what Fletch writes you're bound to learn...he's sort of reminiscent of, say, a Walter Willimas or Thomas Sowell when Sowell's expounding on economics...

Stacey - FL
As an economic system, even capitalism needs (unfortunately)government intervention. Why? because we are all greedy. Otherwise, we would have the Walmarts of the country (poor Walmart, do not mean to pick on them, only using them as an example) hiring young children at very small wages to work 18 hour days. -- Stacey

I agree that over sight and law is needed of course -- but meddling in the private sector is dangerous. Bailouts and wealth redistribution is meddling, don't you agree?
============================

I see government as a necessary 'evil' to combat the human condition. However, the government, being made up of humans (ok, that is sometimes debatable), needs to be put 'in check' itself by the people it governs. Unfortunately, it sometimes runs amok. - Stacey

I agree that limited government is necessary. They have over stepped and they are out of control. They are breaking constitutional law. The tenth amendment clearly states,

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


I see nowhere in the constitution where it gives the government the power to bail out the private business with our tax dollars. Nowhere does it say that there is a corporate or individual growth cap and after it is exceeded there must be income redistribution.



Bill
Excellent points. Especially the one about asking for your own slavery and not even knowing it. That was a gem. - Bill

========

Thanks Bill, sadly it's the truth.

Our rights are being dismantled. Like a stack of bologna in a deli they take one slice at a time so it's not noticeable.

For example - Obama said he won't take gun rights away, perhaps he's telling the truth. But he doesn't say he won't take the ammo away. There is legislation for the Ammunition accountability act.

Our government is using deceptive tactic and must be stopped from law breaking.



Stacey
"You behavior is very rude."

Not at all. The arrogance of a position that deems one's own judgments of what something is worth as inherently more valuable than everyone else's (as determined by free choices in the marketplace) is very rude. The closest I came to name calling amounted to nothing more than reflecting your own phrases aimed at those who embrace capitalism.

By definition, then, if my response is "rude", yours is glaringly hypocritical.

Stacey - FL
I deserved it because I worked harder, they could have gotten more if they worked harder, etc...bottom line is greed. I took something I did not 'need' from someone who did 'need' it. But in our culture, I can feel OK about it because I worked for it and the other person did not. I 'deserved' it. It would not have been fair to give us the same amount since I worked harder. -- Stacy

===========================

Stacey you made a CHOICE. You chose to work hard - you could have chosen not to. I disagree it was greed. Sounds more like it was competition. And your competition CHOSE not to work as hard.

You also taught a lesson that you may be unaware of to the other worker. That there is always someone who can out work you. That everyone is replaceable. And they have to work even harder to get the bonus, or not try for it at all. Your interaction gave them life experience. Which is very valuable.

Failure is just as important as success. They both teach us lessons.

Once you learn to accept the every lemons in life you can learn to make lemon-aid out of them.

I know one man that has a bad-back, he can't do his regular job anymore (automotive) so he lives off his wife's pay - they are very poor because of one income. I found him a job where he could make $8 per hour sitting at a counter taking in work in the automotive industry. He turned it down because he thinks he's "worth" more than $8 per hour.

He dismissed opportunity and still complains about lack of money.

So should the "rich" foot his bill because of his ego?





Educating Stacey - 1
"I do not see prosperity as bad."

And yet you rail against its very source. The term "greed" is inherently negative. It means much more than "self-interest" which is the real driver behind all human behavior and the reason that capitalism is so phenomenally successful. "Greed" is placing self-interest above the rights of others.

"The owners of Walmart obviously want (desire) more than they need."

That statement is obviously false. They wish to earn whatever they can to the betterment of themselves (as do the employees and the customers and everyone else). The assumption of how much one "needs" is entirely subjective and inappropriate in a discussion of what works.

"They have to do this at the expense of someone else (their workers and competition)."

That statement, too, is absurd on ots face. That they are able to compete in the marketplace makes more goods and services available to consumers and is, therefore, a great boon to their customers. That they are able to operate is what provided the OPPORTUNITY for their workers to better themselves that would otherwise not exist. That competition exists means that resources are allocated most efficiently for consumers which benefits EVERYONE and encourages (forces) resources allocated less inefficiently to be reionvested elsewhere (again, to everyone's benefit).

"[I]f everyone who worked for them decided they too wanted the money Walmart makes, there would not be anyone left to work for Walmart."

The scenario is ridiculous. Jobs are created in the marketplace based on the return that the job can generate - all jobs (cashiers, managers, CEOs, baseball players, doctors, etc.). What the workers "want" is meaningless and has no bearing on the real world. All that matters is what their efforts can command in the free market.

Educating Stacye - 2
"For capitalism to work, there has to be a segment of the population that does not 'prosper' in order for others to prosper."

Again, if that were the case, we'd all still be living in caves. It is imbecilic. Capitalism CREATES opportunities and wealth. It is capitalism that has created the strongest middle class and the wealthiest “poor” in the world RUGHT HERE.

“As an economic system, even capitalism needs (unfortunately) government intervention.”

Completely absurd. It all flows from the absurd premise that everyone is motivated by “greed”. In fact, it is CAPITALISM that essentially eliminated child labor – NOT government intervention.

For all of human history up to about 200 years ago, the whole concept of outlawing child labor would have been looked at as monumental stupidity. Children worked on the farm as soon as they were able. The prosperity of the division of labor and free markets allowed children to attend schools for longer and longer periods (long before government got involved) until the best workers began demanding that they not have to compete with children for quality jobs. The practice was doomed as a society-wide institution before the first law against it was ever passed. The 18-hour day was destroyed, again, by the private sector seeking the best workers. In fact, in the steel industry, the only 8-hour days existed in non-union shops trying to, again, attract the best workers. And if your theory of wages were correct, then no one would ever be hired at an entry-level job for a wage higher than the legal minimum which is obviously absurd. There isn’t a single speck of truth in your whole assertion.

Educating Stacey - 2
"For capitalism to work, there has to be a segment of the population that does not 'prosper' in order for others to prosper."

Again, if that were the case, we'd all still be living in caves. It is imbecilic. Capitalism CREATES opportunities and wealth. It is capitalism that has created the strongest middle class and the wealthiest “poor” in the world RUGHT HERE.

“As an economic system, even capitalism needs (unfortunately) government intervention.”

Completely absurd. It all flows from the absurd premise that everyone is motivated by “greed”. In fact, it is CAPITALISM that essentially eliminated child labor – NOT government intervention.

For all of human history up to about 200 years ago, the whole concept of outlawing child labor would have been looked at as monumental stupidity. Children worked on the farm as soon as they were able. The prosperity of the division of labor and free markets allowed children to attend schools for longer and longer periods (long before government got involved) until the best workers began demanding that they not have to compete with children for quality jobs. The practice was doomed as a society-wide institution before the first law against it was ever passed.

Educating Stacey - 3
My apologies for the double- post.

Still, the 18-hour day was destroyed, again, by the private sector seeking the best workers. In fact, in the steel industry, the only 8-hour days existed in non-union shops trying to, again, attract the best workers. And if your theory of wages were correct, then no one would ever be hired at an entry-level job for a wage higher than the legal minimum which is obviously absurd. There isn’t a single speck of truth in your whole assertion.

“I see government as a necessary 'evil' to combat the human condition….”

…only because you have grossly misdiagnosed the human condition.

“But the company had a total dollar amount to give their employees.”

Of course, that bears no relation whatsoever to the economy as a whole which does not work like that and, again, “need” is completely irrelevant to the discussion. There is no wealth-creation in a bonus program even if the desire to maximize one’s own bonus were not absurdly labeled as “greed”.

Novalis
“To repair the American infrastructure would not involve 'make work' jobs. No one is suggesting digging holes and filling them in. Your characterization of Obama is typical right-wing garbage, pure bull.”

Uh, hate to break it to you, genius, but (a) no such “characterization” was made of Obama, (b) even if it had been, it would make no difference, and (c) whether or not the jobs are “make work” or not changes nothing. It is economically impossible for governmental spending to stimulate the economy.

“And quote Ronnie all you want. He's the man who turned America into a debtor nation and was proud of it.”

You are obviously confusing Reagan with FDR, arguably the most economically destructive president in American history.

“Education is a wonderful thing.”

I agree. You should try it some time.

Fabby and Jo
Great work! Keep it up. Alas, living in south central PA, I must go watch my Steelers-fan neighbors try to shout down my Ravens-fam neighbors while my Eagles-fan neighbors commisserate with the lone Boston-expat (whose license plate reads "PATSFAN").

I'll be out of circulation for a while.

Stacey, F1etch and Fabby
F1etch have fun with the game and neighbors!

I won't be on for a while today myself -- I have 5 horses to ride - one a paint Stallion that needs training. Then reluctantly (if I can pull myself out of the barn) I will make Christmas cookies... ugh. See you on TH later.

Common Sense, Plainly Spoken
Well written but, by now, boilerplate explanations. Given that everything the author says here is obviously true, and widely known for decades, the real mystery is why such a large percentage of Americans continue to tolerate the heavy hand of their Federal Government. To that question, so far as I know, no one has a convincing answer.

Education is the problem and answer
It used to be that people were educated in their home and in schools that work should be worthwhile and that it should be equitable. This no longer is the case in either place; we instead teach about the oppressed and that we as a nation are a bunch of miserable, skinflint, scrooges. One of my Boy Scouts, who has to write a letter to his Congressman as part of a badge, wrote about how the US needs to give more foreign aid, because we give out less per capita than some other nations (I still can't find the backup for this one).

Also to blame is a media and television who teach that the political organizer, whistleblower or protestor is worth more than a reliable worker. Also, they portray everyone is rich, living in a huge house, with no visible means of support. As an example, just think about the message that Extreme Makeover Home Edition provides. While I believe in charity for deserving people, when you wind up with a poor family, not working, with a 7,000 sf home (individual bedrooms for each of 9 kids I think I remember on one episode)loaded to the gills with all sort of toys, it does not provide a good message.

Therefore, everyone thinks that it is stupid to go to work when you can take or whine for what you want from others.

Comic relief?
Read -- http://mises.org/story/2645 - The Peculiar History of Arthurdale -- to enjoy a good laugh; or to motivate the beginning of your economic education; or to simply feel uncomfortable that economics, evidence, and logic are unable to influence your reaction. Thanks to John Hawkins for his timely essay! Lee Welter, SACRAMENTO

The reason why
so many people "tolerate the heavy hand of government" because they are being TRAINED to by education and the media.

Great post by the Historian, you're right public education is a mess. Another example of government failure. Government wasn't meant to run education, our founders would be stunned. I find it ironic that democrats preach "separation of church and state" (not that there is any such thing), in the name of pushing religion - yet don't seem to mind the pushing of political ideology on our youth.

Then there is the main stream media which is located in large metropolitan cities. They are primarily liberal, and haven't a clue how fly over country lives. Naturally they report slanted to the left, problem is it shapes the minds of people who haven't time (or are too lazy) to look up facts.

For example how many people thought the financial mess was LACK of regulation when in fact it was because of BAD regulation?

Education and the media don't tell Americans the whole story. Especially if it doesn't fit their ideology.

Historian and Jo,
Tell us, if you could calculate all of the corrupt welfare that has ever been wasted on the societal dregs who get it...and compared it to the all of the corporate welfare in the form of tax breaks and loopholes plus the amount that the Wall Street white shirt scumbags have legally and illegally stolen...which amount would you guess is by far the largest?

Keep the following in mind: to burn the $152 billion given to AIG alone...the dumbest (or most corrupt) businessman on the planet would have to lose $50,000,000.00 per day...every working day of the year...for almost 13 years!

Not sure how that compares to those evil folks on Extreme Home Makeover but that IS either some serious welfare or some really, really uneducated white collar wonders. Don't you agree?

Tom - WI
Tell us, if you could calculate all of the corrupt welfare that has ever been wasted on the societal dregs who get it...and compared it to the all of the corporate welfare in the form of tax breaks and loopholes plus the amount that the Wall Street white shirt scumbags have legally and illegally stolen...which amount would you guess is by far the largest? Tom

====================================

Tom you will not see me supporting *any* welfare programs, therefor the amounts do not matter -- NO ONE is entitled to welfare it is unconstitutional. IT is not the job of our government, to take our tax dollars and hand them to other people. As Obama wants to do, by "spreading the wealth".

Not corporate welfare, not social welfare programs, not income reallocation, not social security, not medicaid - all are constitutionally ILLEGAL.
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