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Monday, June 08, 2009
Harry R. Jackson, Jr. :: Townhall.com Columnist
Restoring America's Marriages
by Harry R. Jackson, Jr.
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Last week marked a nadir in the battle for biblical marriage. Two huge events occurred. First, former VP Dick Cheney voiced his support for same-sex marriage. Second, New Hampshire became the sixth state in the Union to legalize gay marriage. Despite these two events, nationalizing same-sex marriage is absolutely not inevitable. Gay marriage proponents are only too aware that the recent California Supreme Court ruling that the 2008 Proposition 8 victory will stand guarantees that a fresh round of marriage amendments, initiatives, and referendums will undoubtedly be levied in the states that have scored temporary victories for same-sex marriage.

*** Special Offer ***

I must admit that Cheney’s defection from his party’s long-term stance on marriage was especially disappointing. His open admission of his transition to same-sex marriage advocacy - which places him left of President Obama - seemed especially hypocritical in light of his second term ascension to power on the wings of the same sex-marriage controversy. Perhaps this admission explains why the Bush administration ran out of steam on the issue shortly after their 2004 victory. Numerous pro-family groups who have supported the GOP for years are questioning where their values will find a new political home.

While these groups meditate on the political ramifications of recent marriage regulations and decisions, new alliances are being formed and millions of nameless and faceless Americans will soon join the struggle to affirm biblical marriage. The New Hampshire legislature muddied the waters in the marriage debate by attempting to throw the religious community a bone, declaring that conservative ministers would not be forced to perform same-sex marriages.

Despite the New Hampshire governor’s attempt to paint this as a compromise position, the religious services exemption is tantamount to giving pro “biblical” marriage proponents the sleeves out of one’s vest. In most cases openly gay people will not seek out conservative ministers to perform their weddings. Only activists seeking a precedent setting case would even entertain coercing a biblically faithful minister.

Knowledgeable pro-traditional marriage advocates understand that the real danger lies with the unintended consequences of gay marriage on the next generation. Redefining marriage, redefines family, the redefinition of family changes the definition of parenting, the definition of parenting changes the dynamics of education. As a result, in the state of Massachusetts, eight-year olds are reading Heather has Two Mommies. To make things worse, their parents cannot opt out of these classes.

In California five-year olds are asked to become gay “Allies” and they can join such a club, which meets during breaks in their elementary classrooms. These kinds of ill-advised social experiments may produce a host of unexpected consequences. If gay marriage is allowed, the nation will soon begin to experience more and more degradation of the nuclear family - resulting in fewer kids being raised by both a mom and a dad. There have been no studies that suggest that any other marriage arrangement beats the power of having one mom and one dad investing in their own biological children.

What will the landscape of America look like if same-sex marriage is legalized across our nation? According to the writings of Dr. Stanley Kurtz, nations who have gone this way see a dramatic increase in out of wedlock births, long-term singleness, and other symptoms of the devaluation of the institution. If the American family loses the presence of its birth dad in the home, there will be several huge consequences.

Consider these statistics. Over half of Americans studied in a survey in 2001 by Harvard University’s Kennedy School of Government believe that the high number of single-parent families is a major cause of poverty. Studies also reveal that most Americans believe that welfare programs encourage single-parent families and teenage pregnancy.

Malcolm D. Williams in 1997, used a sample of 1,610 10-13 year-olds in a study. He found that children who learn to share significant ideas with their fathers had fewer behavior problems and developed stronger cognitive abilities than their peers.

Similar results were found in a 1995 study of 254 black adolescents living with both of their biological parents. Ninety-six percent of these boys said their fathers were their role models. In this study, only 44 percent of black adolescents who were not living with their fathers said their fathers were their role models.

The Journal of Family Psychology in 2000 reported a study of 116 African American students ages 10-13. The boys with married parents were found to have much higher levels of self esteem and a better sense of personal power and self-control compared to single-mother homes.

Repeatedly, scholarly studies focused on adolescence show that early onset of puberty in girls is a major problem. It is associated with negative psychological, social, and health problems. Depression, alcohol consumption, and higher teenage pregnancy rates are some of the results. An eight year study of girls and their families showed that a father’s presence in the home, with appropriate involvement in his children’s lives, contributed to later pubertal timing of the daughters in the seventh grade.

These studies and scores of others suggest what most Americans have always known: that both boys and girls, are deeply affected in both biological and psychological ways by the presence of their fathers. We have emphasized the father half of the biblical duo called “parents,” assuming the mother is intact within the family setting.

In conclusion, let me cite the fact that even former Vice President Al Gore sees the need for strong fathers to remain in the nuclear family. In June 2000 he said, “Don’t ever doubt the impact that fathers have on children. Children with strongly committed fathers learn about trust early on. They learn about trust with their hearts. They learn they are wanted, that they have value, and that they can afford to be secure and confident and set their sights high.”

Most gay activists do not seem to understand that two mommies or two daddies cannot replace the balance of one mother and one father. Despite the incredible adaptability of children, our entire culture should advocate for family structures which promote the most positive environments of our next generations.

Let’s set our sights high. Let’s not fall victim to the inevitability argument of our opposition. We need simply need an army of bi-partisan leaders to strategize, organize, and prioritize the protection of marriage!

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About The Author

Bishop Harry Jackson is chairman of the High Impact Leadership Coalition and senior pastor of Hope Christian Church in Beltsville, MD, and co-authored, Personal Faith, Public Policy [FrontLine; March 2008] with Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council.

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Big Problem Harry
Seriously, is this what every columnist here is going to do every time another state makes gay marriage legal? Harry, you're beating a dead horse that has long since decomposed. And like every other anti-gay column I read, you didn't check you facts.

Gay marriage has not had a negative effect on society. The Nordic countries as well as Denmark have had gay marriage for nearly two decades and there have been no signs of negative effects. In fact, marriage rates are up in those countries. Look at eSkeptic for details on the studies done on this matter.

Even if heterosexual marriage is best for children, this is a free society. You take the best with the worst whether you like it or not. People have a right to raise their children and form unions however they please so long as it is not forced. If you don't like it, go to Saudi Arabia where women aren't allowed to divorce, gays are executed, and children can be beaten with no consequences. This is a free society. Get used to it.

Intellectually Dishonest
First of all "restore?" Utter nonsense. I have been waiting on Jackson and NOM to make a single coherent argument that one couple's same-sex marriage has any effect on another couple's traditional marriage. I have yet to entertain one.

With our current divorce rate, most children are raised by a single parent. The research shows that children of same-sex couples do as well as those raised by two parents. I'll take that to mean that they do better than kids raised by a single parent.

All this drivel amounts to only one thing. Mullah Jackson wants to impose his religious beliefs on everyone else.

He is free to practice his religion as he chooses. If he feels that same-sex marriage is a sin then I would recommend that he not marry someone of the same gender.

Yeesh!

David Hart
http://www.tips-Q.com

Jack . . .
Perhaps right wing Evangelicals make terrible parents. They raise incurious children who dismiss science. They raise children on the belief that the universe is 6,000 years old. They condone corporal punishment and beat their kids into submission. Their kids believe that their Jewish friends are going to hell.

It's bad enough that these folks are allowed to pull levers every November but having kids? That should be against the law.

Of course, I am being sarcastic and would not THINK of interfering with their parental or adoptive rights. Or would I?

Redefine family?
And what is the "definition" of family. I'd like to thing that family is defined by a group of people who care and take care of each other.

One can argue about the upside of "traditional" marriage, and that is fine for people who want it, but it is not the only way.

I don't have much contact with my biological family. A phone call every other week or so maybe. I consider my family my friends.

Truth be told, I hope I never get married. That doesn't mean I'm going to spend the rest of my life single. I can live with a woman, not get married, and be perfectly happy, raising completely normal children.

Advocates of marriage like to make you think that marriage was invented by Jews or Christians, but that is not the case. Marriage was around long before monotheistic religion reared its head.

I'm not saying it is a bad way to live, I'm saying that it is not the only way to live.

Agreed
But I fail to see why social conservatives should continue to support the GOP because of their miserable failed record in this area.

Ultimately, I think it needs to be the fathers and men of this nation that needs to protect future families. And, I would personally not look to some organization like the promise keepers who welcome homosexuals.

I think we just need to be honest and say yes, I believe in discrimination for the sake of today and future families, instead of get all mushy mouth like Rick Warren, Cheney and others who want to appease or are afraid of the fanatical gay lobby.

Return to traditional marriages.
Yes, I agree that we a return to the most traditional form of marriage in human history: one man, many women.

These comments by the supporters

if acts if same-sex sodomy provide further evidence that submitting to the lusts of same-sex sodomy destroys the abilities of the participants to effectively use reason and logic.

These people are not so much ignorant or stupid as they are mentally ill and will support any nonsense that might alleviate the guilt they feel each time they sexually abuse themselves and others.

Jack
Before you attempt to make an argument, you should first analyze whether or not your argument is logical. In your first paragraph, you insinuate that the argument for gay marriage is over and done with, in which it is pointless for the author and other conservatives to continue to oppose. The facts are, out of the two hundred and thirty three years that America has claimed to be a sovereign nation, gay marriage has only been legal in the past five. In the past five years, only six states out of fifty have legalized gay marriage, the majority of which were decided by the courts and not the people. The facts completely contradict your statement in that gay marriage is a new ideology and is resoundingly rejected by most of the people in this nation.

In your second paragraph you argue that gay marriage has not had a negative effect on society. In society, there are two basic factors which determine success and failure: population growth and functionality. In 2002, Denmark posted a 10.4 marriage rate per 1000 people, and in 2005 posted a 1.77 live birth rate per woman, below the 2.1 rate necessary for population replacement. Denmark's fertility rate is one of the highest for Europe, but only because it also has one of the highest Muslim populations. You suggest in your third paragraph that Islamic nations and by extension Muslims are dysfunctional (and rightly so - this is why Islamic nations are "third world") which means that native Danes are not reproducing, and those who are reproducing within Denmark are Muslims. Here you have the two basic negative effects on society - negative population growth and increasing societal dysfunction with the introduction of Islam - which means that gay marriage, or the state recognition of a childless, dysfunctional union HAS had a negative, and perhaps ruinous effect on their society. (Statistics from Mark Steyn's book "America Alone" page 54.)

The act of discriminating

is intrinsically, morally neutral.

Saying something is discrimination tells the listener nothing about the morality of the discrimination.

People need to stop using discrimination as a negative viewpoint.

Newsflash
Gay marriage is not the problem with American
marriages today.

Turelie
You are confusing correlation and causation. There is no evidence to suggest that same-sex marriage has had a negative effect on society.

The fact that recognition of same-sex marriage is new is irrelevant. The same thing could be said of interracial marriages.

Civil rights have traditionally been won at the courts in contrast to the ballot. I do think that national same-sex marriage is inevitable. Opposition is almost entirely based on religion. I have yet to entertain a single coherent argument that would support the notion that same-sex marriage has any effect, whatsoever, on traditional marriage.

I expect that Boies and Olson will ultimately be successful with a 5-4 Supreme Court decision - pretty much along the lines of Lawrence.

Jack (continued)
In your final paragraph, you make the self-conflicted argument that "this is a free society," but then go on to disparage the Saudis for holding traditions in their society that you yourself consider to be wrong. In your argument, you are misunderstanding your own definition of the word "free." "Freedom" does not mean that one can do whatever he wishes, because this would mean that anyone could beat their children and execute gays to their heart's desire. The basic definition of "free" is "without cost," which means that we are only "free" to do that which does not exact a price. When it comes to society, we are free to do that which is allowed by law, but we are NOT FREE to do that which is contrary to the law, because doing so would cost us our most precious possession: our liberty.

Because it is LAW that determines what we are free to do, law is the most important matter of discussion. What is the difference between a just law and an unjust law? TRUTH. If we are to create laws concerning the definition of Marriage, we must first base our laws on TRUTH. Because Marriage itself was defined by God as the union of a man and a woman (that's where we got the idea of marriage in the first place) plus the fact that every single human being is the product of a marriage (all humans have a father and a mother - homosexuals cannot create life), then the definition of marriage can only be between a man and a woman, no matter how loud the gays, politicians or other idiots scream and cry.

eddie too
You seem to poses all the same characteristics you attribute to the sodomites. In all your posts fro as long as I have noticed them, you fail to provide a single valid reason to oppose same-sex marriages. Of course, there seem to be very few in the first place, but your comments seem to particularly egregious in that you never use logic, reason or intelligence.

Turelie Response
David already properly addressed the points you brought up with the claims on Denmark. And it's also worth noting you didn't address the other Nordic nations like Sweeden as well. So you're basically cherry picking.

In regards to my remarks on freedom, you're twisting my words. When I say freedom in the context of a free society I mean freedom of life, liberty, and property. Human rights essentially. Those 'traditions' I mentioned from the Saudis directly oppose those rights. They oppose the rights of homosexuals to live, they oppose the property of children in regards to their bodies being harmed by abuse, and they oppose the rights of liberty that allow an individual to pursue whatever it is that makes them happy. The limits are when one individual or a group seeks to deny those equal rights to others, in this case homosexuals. If one idnvidiaul can enter into a union with another while another individual is denied on the basis of sexual orientation, that is an affront to the free society where all individuals are protected equally under the law.

What Mullah Jackson is saying goes against human rights. It's denying one group of people the same rights another group has. And there is no valid reason for this aside from personal prejudice, religiously motivated bigotry, and ignorance.

Traditional marriage
I would just guess that perhaps two percent of our population might opt for a same-sex marriage. That leaves around 98 percent of the population to opt for "traditional" marriage. I would suggest that The Reverend Jackson try to fix "traditional" marriage problems without trying to blame gays and lesbians.

Obama appoints Drag Queen for Education

"Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted."
Vladimir Lenin

Barack Obama appoints 'Drag Queen' (Transvestite) for key Education post - Kevin Jennings.

Insiders are saying Kevin Jennings will direct sex education in public schools.

Here is what Kevin Jennings said about the Religious Right:

"We have to quit being afraid of the religious right. We also have to quit — I'm trying to find a way to say this. I'm trying not to say, '[F—] 'em!' which is what I want to say, because I don't care what they think! [audience laughter] Drop dead!"

See a video about him here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUMFqYboizo&eurl=http%3A%2F% 2Fwww.moonbattery.com%2Farchives%2F2009%2F06%2Fobama_picks_ mil.html&feature=player_embedded


Tradition of marriage
First of all marriage is an act that have been religious in nature until civil servants decided to profit from the event. That led to the invention of the marriage license, and the divorce. Money is the root of evil that ruin marriages, lack of or too much have caused divorces. The love of God have been removed by society from most marriages, this have led to divorces in the Christian church. Along with the preconceived notion about being married prior to being thrity have also cause unsuitable pairings. None of this is grounds for deviancy to be forced on society in the name of same sex marriages.

Neither civil unions nor same-sex
marriage are recognized under Italian or Irish law. The marriage rate in Italy is now 5.4 per 1,000 people. Apparently Denmark's has dropped to 6.1 since 2002. Ireland's is lower than both at 5.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_mar_rat-people-marria ge-rate

The latest birth rates in Italy, Denmark and Ireland are, respectively, 8.36, 10.71 and 14.33.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_bir_rat-people-birth- rate

The legalization of gay marriage doesn't seem to affect these numbers much.

And why would it? Just because a gay person can't legally marry a person of the same sex doesn't mean they'll opt to marry someone of the opposite sex and have children. Few people marry more for the mere legality of the institution than for the rewards they get from becoming the life-partner of a chosen person.

One of the main causes of the single parent problem is that the Western world no longer practices social shunning of divorced people, people who live together without being married and single mothers and their children--once effectively insulted by being termed "bastards." I mean, goodness, we've had a very popular divorced president. The election of Reagan certainly didn't send the message that divorce is terrible. It sent the message that everybody makes mistakes, marriages aren't for life, and it's OK to move on from a bad one. Right or wrong, that was the message.

Laws that attempt to regulate private morality that aren't backed up by strongly expressed social disapproval will not change behavior. We've seen it with the failure of Prohibition and the failure of media censorship. We've seen it in the gradual elimination of laws against homosexual activity and the selling of contraceptives. It's going to happen with marijuana too.

To Patrick
"First of all marriage is an act that have been religious in nature until civil servants decided to profit from the event. That led to the invention of the marriage license, and the divorce."

First of all divorce has been around for as long as marriage has been around. And, have you ever heard of common law marriage? In some states, just live together, call yourself man and wife and the state will recognize that you are married whether or not you have gone through any ceremony at all.

Women putting off marriage beyond thirty has caused problems. The rise in female problems of having children and the rise in birth defects because of the aging of the woman's eggs.

Recent Presidents
Of our post World War II presidents the following did not have good relations with their fathers:

Richard Nixon
Ronald Reagan
Bill Clinton
Barack Obama

No Forced Marriage Neutering
It is up to those who want to change marriage licensing to apply to brideless or groomless pairings to demonstrate that the benefits FOR SOCIETY will outweigh the negatives.

http://walrus.blogtownhall.com/2009/05/26/handy_dandy_marri age_neutering_plea_repellant.thtml


Retired Geek
We had a drag queen as founder/head of the FBI for decades and it didn't seem to limit his ability to run that agency--maybe it made him a bit "liberal" with cutting corners on civil rights, but hey--when you look that good in pink chiffon, who's going to criticize?

Jack of VA?
Are there any types of marriage that you would not vote For in Virginia?

What is Marriage For?
The question to ask, in order to provide a solid foundation to all arguments about marriage is this:

What is marriage for?

Is it for adult companionship, pleasure, and convenience? If so, then what we have now -- marriage as a purely optional possibility, lightly entered into, lightly gotten out of, completely divorced from childbearing, and extending as a "right" to any number and/or combination of consenting adults -- is the inevitable result.

If the current situation is not desirable then marriage must have some other purpose than merely as a pleasant possibility to facilitate companionship among adults.

In the traditional understanding of marriage, as practiced by every society humanity has ever produced, marriage is much more -- it is a formal, permantent, legal (and often, but not necessarily, religious), bond between male and female that serves multiple functions.

1. Marriage obligates both biological parents to participate in raising their offspring. This drastically reduces the number of children thrown onto the community to be supported via taxes.

2. Marriage obligates sexual fidelity -- harnessing biological drives and channeling them to productive rather than destructive purposes. This drives down rates of both sexually transmitted disease and the depression and other mental problems which plague the promiscuous as they continually form, destroy, and re-form relationship bonds.

3. As a corollary, by assuring that each child's parentage is known marriage improves the next generation's ability to find suitable, un-related mates and the raising of blood-siblings in the same household makes incestuous attraction unlikely. This is biologically healthy for the human species
...

What is Marriage For? Cont.
...
4. Marriage ensures mutual support through the difficulties of life and the vicissitudes of fortune. Families and extended families assist each other in a myriad of ways that no other community, however well-intended, can duplicate. Friends may have other obligations. Neighbors may not even know each other. But couples, siblings, cousins, and even in-laws are there for each other because that's how families are.

5. Marriage provides beneficial connections to extended family groups. Few things are rarer and more remarkable than for a mere friend or acquaintance, much less a stranger, to help a young couple with the down payment for a house or a car or to provide other financial support to help set a new adult on his/her own feet. Few things could be more commonplace than for family members to do so.

Many people gain their first, valuable work experience that sets them on a lifetime of productive employment in a family member's business. They might not have taken a chance on a completely inexperienced stranger, but since its a nephew, a cousin, or your sister-in-law's sister-in-law the connection makes a difference. The old saying is true -- you don't just marry your spouse, you marry the family.

So we need to recognize that the formation of these social bonds and connections -- things far removed from mere adult companionship -- is part of what marriage is for. Indeed, in many societies, these literal or figurative tribal connections are more critical for the ordering of society than local, regional, or even national politics.
...

Which is the Greater Threat?
Even if you accept that gay couples are a threat to traditional marriage (I don't, but let's go on here) I can think of no more than three or four gay couples that might conceivably want to marry---they are stable relationships of long standing---but I can think of dozens and dozens of people I know who are either divorced heterosexuals or straight couples who live together without marriage; many have had children. I can't believe that the few gay couples are a worse "threat to marriage" than the many many many many more straight couples who either never marry or contribute to the 50% divorce rate. I get the part that some on the Right see homosexuality as a sin or perversion, but I wish somebody could explain to me why, if the worry is about the state of marriage as a support of society, the same folks aren't equally up in arms about unwed cohabitation and the high divorce rate?

What is Marriage For? Conclusion
6.Marriage provides for the orderly transmission of both wealth and culture from one generation to the next. The first through financial support AND education while the parents live and through the inheritance of property after the parents die. The second because despite the efforts of government schools and tax policies that often force mothers into full-time jobs children still learn their values at home.

A child raised by his/her married, biological parents is better off by every measure of success than a child raised in any other living arrangement.

Marriage is not for "two adults in a loving relationship". Marriage is bigger and grander and more ambitious. Marriage is for nothing less than the perpetuation of human civilization.

And the social pathologies that accompany family breakdown -- whether this involves never marrying at all or uncommitted marriages resulting in serial polygamy via too-easy divorce -- prove that we need to recapture the proper understanding of marriage if the US is going to survive in any recognizable form.

To crosstalk
Step aside for a minute from how you feel about gay people or gay marriage and consider whether you think it's comical that you describe politicians as being panicked by or subservient to "the fanatical gay lobby". What adjective would you choose to describe the gun lobby?

America's Marriages

Two straight demon worshipers can marry.
Two Christian lesbians can not.

Two straight atheists can marry.
Two Christian gays can not.

Two straight witches can marry.
Two Jewish lesbians can not.

Two straight pornographers can marry.
Two Jewish gays can not.

Two straight drug pushers can marry.
Two Christian bi-sexual women can not.

Two straight left wing media can marry.
Two Christian bisexual men can not.

Two straight radical activist judges can marry.
Two Jewish bisexual women can not.

Two straight eco-terrorists can marry.
Two Christian missionaries of the same sex can not.

Two straight Hollywood movie producers can marry.

Two straight illegal aliens can marry.

Two straight new agers can marry.

Two straight MSNBC anchors can marry.

Two straight tax and spend politicians can marry.

Two straight Muslims can marry.


Two people of the same sex, who love the Lord Jesus Christ and know Him as the One who died, was buried, and rose again so that they could know the truth about Him and live; two people who are committed to each other in a loving and stable relationship and want to declare it publicly in the eyes of God and man; two people who contribute to their church and their community and are hard working, responsible members of society; two people who never did anything to hurt anyone can not get married.

This is traditional marriage. This is the legal definition of marriage. This is marriage in the USA.


It is wrong.

Get over it!
I won't begin to act like I understand homosexuality. But if two adults want to get married in a so-called free country, then why not? The church doesn't have to recognize the marrige or adapt their policy to perform gay cerimonies. The gays should be allowed to obtain a marriage license through the court, and perform whatever cerimony they want. Our society is supposed to be one where church and state are seperate, so therefore the church should not be the deciding authority on any issue regarding law.

BigFredd,
If you think that the church won't have to recognize same-sex "marriages" you are woefully ignorant. Both in the US and abroad Christians have already been subject to legal sanction for attempting to maintain their moral principles in this area.


Sweden
Bishop Jackson left out impact studies of the effect "gay marriage" in ofthe countries - http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz200602280810.asp is a good article. You can not have only two mommies or two daddies, your imagination can run wild. The end result is always much less fertility.

Confused
The author is confused between same-sex marriage and same-sex parenting. His arguments try to condemn same-sex parenting, which is legal in all 50 states.

actually, jeremy
. . . if homosexual couples do any parenting, it is by nature always single sex parenting. That's kind of what homosexual 'marriage' has to be.

lilly,
you stated"
"I wish somebody could explain to me why, if the worry is about the state of marriage as a support of society, the same folks aren't equally up in arms about unwed cohabitation and the high divorce rate?"

I believe that all who believe in the importance of marriage are "equally up in arms" about all practices that denegrate marriage.
Why do you lilly, believe same-sex marriage would be positive?

ReadIt Yourself,
your one comment I found to be very alarming and I believe it must be stopped.

"Two straight left wing media can marry."



Hello Jeffrey,
Haven't spoken with you for a bit. Have you been OK?

Lily
I don't know how you got from gay marriage to guns, but it appears that gays don't believe in every constitutional right, just the ones they want. Hey, maybe we could call it gunphobia;
http://constitutionclub.wordpress.com/2007/06/14/gay-with-g un-ejected-from-pride-fest/

The real meaning of same-sex marriage
"If they (homosexuals) can enshrine same-sex 'marriage' in law, they gain the power to persecute and silence those who regard homosexual acts as sinful. In other words, same-sex 'marriage' is about power, not love. Once you gain the cultural victory, you make sure that you consolidate the victory with the might of Caesar."

--- Mark Shea in the National Catholic Register

Interesting change
It will be interesting to see that now that Cheney and McCain's former campaign manager both advocate same-sex marriage, will the GOP feud with itself on the issue? Funny how a wedge issue used against Democrats could become a wedge issue within the Republican Party.

Myopic Choices Will Keep Us Out of Power
One of the greatest problems our conservative movements have today is that EVERY potential leader is eliminated from contention by some single issue. The libertals know it and the liberal media plays it to the hilt to get us to reject our own promising leaders!

Same sex marriage is not marriage in God's eyes, but making it legal or not is insignificant compared to defending the country, cleaning up our legal system so it eliminates violent offenders, and retaining our capitalist economy.

Judge not lest thee be judged!

You will know them by their actions!

Re: Jim in NM
Jim you are contradicting yourself. You say that defending traditional marriage is not an important issue, then turn around and say that instead we should focus on eliminating violent offenders and retaining our capitalist economy. It is the breakdown of the traditional family that has lead to increased inner-city poverty, which in turn has spawned the expansion of "socialistic" solutions and the increase in violent crime. Do you think that young people would feel the need to join a gang if they really had a sense of belonging in a family.
The surrogate families (gangs and government) which have sprung up to fill the vacuum left by abandoning tradition, are the cause of our social ills. The only solution is to reclaim tradition, not trying to re-invent it, or re-define it. I have no doubt that some gay couples as well as some single parents are capable of raising wonderfully well adapted and capable children, but given the odds why would we abandon the institutions which have demonstrated time and again to produce the best results.

Thank you
Bishop Jackson, please keep up your fight in this important area and informing us all. Gayle in IN--very well put.

Jim,
You are completely mistaken, Jim.

Most of the social pathologies that afflict American society today are the direct result of family breakdown.

ALL the enemies of the traditional family -- a man and woman who have made a permanent, legally and socially sanctioned commitment to each other raising their own, biological children -- must be fought by every person who values peace, order, prosperity, and the continuation of the unique freedoms that comprise the American Dream from generation to generation.

Homosexual "marriage" is only one of these enemies -- serial polygamy via no-fault divorce, promiscuity, out-of-wedlock pregnancies, and other issues are just as dangerous -- but its the highest profile at the moment and thus deserving of the greatest attention.

History proves that when societies no longer honor marriage and the family they weaken and succumb to some conqueror. If you want to pass all that is the USA to your children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren don't be an ostrich with your head buried in the sand.

Open your eyes and think about the consequences of devaluing marriage and family.


Is this the homosexual agenda? Part I
Michael Swift, “Goals of the Homosexual Movement,” Gay Community News, 15-21 February 1987

Quoted in bringing up Boys by Dr James Dobson


We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We
Shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports
Arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your
Truck stops, in your all-male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons
Will become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.

All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men. All homosexuals must stand together as brothers; we must be united artistically, philosophically, socially,
Politically, and financially. We will triumph only when we present a common face to the vicious heterosexual enemy.

Is this the homosexual agenda? Part II

The family unit—spawing ground of lies, betrayals, mediocrity, hypocrisy and violence—will be abolished. The
Family unit, which only dampens imagination and curbs free will must be eliminated. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory. They will be bonded together in a communal setting, under the control and instruction of homosexual savants.

All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. We adhere to a cult of
Beauty, moral and esthetic. All that is ugly and vulgar and banal will be annihilated. Since we are alienated from middle-
Class heterosexual conventions, we are free to live our lives according to the dictates of the pure imagination. For us too
Much is not enough.

We shall be victorious because we are filled with the ferocious bitterness of the oppressed who have been forced to play seemingly bit parts in your dumb, heterosexual shows throughout the ages. We too are capable of firing guns, and manning the barricades of the ultimate revolution.

Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks.

Changing definitions

If Liberals believe changing definitions doesn't really matter, Lets change the the definition of homosexuality to include homosexual Catholic Priets who like little boys.

Its not 100% accurate but neither is changing the current definition of marraige to include same sex couples.

Gay marriage simply isn't important
As far as I am concerned, marriage is a religious sacrament and government should have no part in it at all. The legal part of marriage is the contract, which in my opinion should be available to any two unmarried adults who wish to enter into it. The flip side of that is once entered into, it should be FAR harder to get out of, impossible when children are involved. The problems society is having with the disintegration of family is far more attributable to the bed hopping of straight people than the marriage of gays.

Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie have six children and are now splitting without ever having married. Octomom has spit out 14 kids without benefit of marriage or even having a father around for them. Jon and Kate Gossett are having a very public split while the real victims are their children. THAT is the real threat to family values and all the vitriol and hysteria directed at gay marriage should be focused there instead.

Homosexual "marriage" should not be
determined by a group of "judges" they are not voice of the people. Unless each state votes on the issue and the results are accepted within that state, and that state only, WE THE PEOPLE have not had our voice and it is us who decide not judges only, at any level.
Remember calling sin by any other name doesn't change it despite how many shout at the top of their lungs. Until we vote by state it should never become the law. It is not the loud obnoxious voices that rule but the People.

The Rest of You Can Relax
Joel has just posted what is easily the stupidest, least factual, most eager-to-be-an-idiot comment in the history of Townhall:

"The PRIMARY reason for a man to identify as 'gay' is that he was either seduced or raped by an older male when he was a teenager or younger."

Joel, please liberate us from the sickening oppression of your hate and ignorance.

Florida Jim
I agree this should be addressed at the state level. There is NO constitutional basis for the federal government being involved in marriage at all. And it should not be decided by the judiciary, who have no right to form laws. However, we not a democracy but a republic. The enacting of laws is NOT by the People but by their elected representatives.

Bruce and Pat from IL
I don't fear or loathe homosexuals, but I don't see the benefit to society of legalizing homosexual marriage. Unlike many of your supporters I don't view marriage as a civil right. I don't have a problem with the expansion of rights to all individuals that would for example, allow them to select someone to be a spokesman for them in the event of hospitalization, but this would equally benefit everyone regardless of their marital status or sexual preference. I don't have a problem with those type of benefits being extended to insure that people can establish significant others as persons of responsibility in their lives, and in areas where those type of legal relationships are not available they should be made available. They would benefit the gay couple as well as the aged lady whose children live far away, but whose neighors have adopted her as a surrogate grandmother.
The problem I have with "gay marriage" is that it does nothing to help society. The ideal scenario for raising children is in a home with their biological father and mother. Yes, there are many family situations that do not meet this ideal, and there are many family situations that do meet the ideal that are less than ideal, but that doesn't justify promoting other lifestyles to the detriment of traditional marriage. In European countries where same sex marriage has been legalized, the number children born out of marriage have increased. How is this good for society? It is true that divorce is rampant, and some traditional families are disfunctional, but how would the legalization of same sex marriage improve that?

Civil Rights vs. Discrimination
Freedom to marry the person you love is a basic civil right. Gay marriage is gaining ground will soon be the law of the land in all 50 states and will enjoy the support of Conservatives.

Just 50 years ago at least 8 states had laws against interracial marriage and "anti-mongrolization" laws. Biblical law was cited by Conservatives such as "tribes should not intermingle and intermarry" and Conservatives warned that there will be blacks on blondes. Now Conservatives have come to love and celebrate inter-racial marriage and have no problem with it.

http://www.pollingreport.com/race.htm

(Scroll down half the page for marriage)

Similarly, Conservatives traditionally defended slavery by saying blacks were not capable of anything better and citing Apostle Paul's statement "Slaves return to your masters" arguing that Jesus was essentially pro-slavery/anti-freedom. Now most Conservatives have admitted that they were wrong on this issue too.

Gay marriage actually helps society by creating more stable relationships reducing free-roaming lifestyle, AIDS, and other diseases and provides loving homes for foster homes.

It does not hurt traditional marriage but may provide a model of fidelity for the many Conservatives who have been unfaithful partners and adulters such As Newt, Sweatty Sinner Swaggert, Mark Foley, Reagan, Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, Jim Bakker, Rush Limbaugh, and others.

In terms of fidelity, Conservatives have a poor record of marriage fidelity as reported by the Barna report and are America's divorce leaders right alongside Jews. Atheists and Agnostics tend to be have much higher fidelity and create better marriages according to the stats.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

Freedom to marry (like universal government healthcare) is a basic right not to be denied legal U.S. citizens.

We see you Mr. Jackson
And no matter how many times you say "pro-family" we know what you mean: anti-gay.

To First @ 1:18
You completely and totally misunderstand what a civil right is. It is a right granted to you by the U.S. Constitution to participate in government and in the economy. Marital status does not hinder your right to vote, worship, hold a job, due process, arm yourself, from unwarranted search and seizure, etc. Blacks had these civil rights violated which led to the Civil War and the Civil War among the Democrats which led to the Civil Rights movements of the 1960s. Nonrecognition of marital status between two pervs does not a civil rights violation make.

"Biblical" marriage?
Jackson's calling it "biblical" marriage is simply a way of couching it in terms most people believe in. But "biblical" marriage was largely polygamous, and governments were not involved --people were simply married in a religious ceremony or married because they SAID they were married.

A religious sacrament? The Roman Church did not consider marriage a sacrament until the 12th century. That's a long time after the "biblical" period.

When European governments starting registering marriages as legal bonds, it was mostly to establish paternity and make sure male spouses and children had all the rights and property to the exclusion of women.

As for addressing the issue at the state level, that doesn't account for the 1,100 or more federal laws that give rights and privileges to married couples. And it merely prolongs the inevitable, requiring the same battle for marriage equality to be fought over and over in 50 states.

Why is that, when it comes to states' rights, people pick and choose what issues states should have control over? Any state that wants to legalize marijuana will be trumped by federal law, and people think that's just fine. But when it comes to marriage they think the power rests with the state.

To Mother of 4
Looks like the four or five shrill 'queens' who started the argument for the forcible recognition of homo-unions on this thread by demanding someone show them why such unions were detrimental to the life, culture and mores of the nation, or why the traditional family unit coming out of heterosexual marriage is beneficial, found nothing to counter your cogent exposition on "What is Marriage for?"

Nothing like a well reasoned argument to have them crawl back under the nearest rock. They may counter with the usual dire divorce and co-habitation statistics which -in their version- just happen to neglect the fact that those come about as the result of marriages entered into without proper preparation, through immaturity, and for the wrong reasons.

We live in a supremely pluralistic, individualistic and transient society where people marry 'strangers' for the convenience of companionship or sanctioned sex, only to find that they are 'incompatible' or unwilling to shoulder the responsibilities that come with the territory.

It is a fact that those countries where traditional values of faith, morals, where families take the time to know each other, and where pop-TV/H'wood-culture influences are either ignored or unimportant, divorce rates are minimal and children grow mentally healthier, rarely distracted by, indoctrinated into, or engaging in homosexual behavior.




Gayle
Thanks for your post. You say "I don't fear or loathe homosexuals, but I don't see the benefit to society of legalizing homosexual marriage."

The benefit to society is the same as that for allowing heterosexual marriages--it encourages more stable relationships that solidify society. If there are children involved, it's better to raise them in a more stable (i.e married) home. If there are no children involved, then a gay marriage is the same as a straight marriage where there are no kids--it has no impact on child rearing, but benefits society by encouraging stability and for people to take care of each other. So, far from your claim that gay marriage does nothing to help society, it would contribute in the same way that heterosexual marriage does.

Even if the "ideal" situation for children is a home with their biological father and mother, we're so far beyond that now that it's pretty irrelevant. Unless you're going to outlaw divorce and take the children away from (or force remarriage on) parents who have lost a spouse, we're on the same ground here.

The ultimate issue however is that it's not going to matter what you're comfortable with, or what you want or don't want--if that's the case we'd still have segregated schools and laws preventing interracial marriage. The issue will be that there is no longer a compelling reason to not allow it, and if the citizens or legislatures don't vote it in, the courts will impose it.

David in WA is right
David said replying to Jackson:

"Biblical" marriage?
Jackson's calling it "biblical" marriage is simply a way of couching it in terms most people believe in. But "biblical" marriage was largely polygamous, and governments were not involved --people were simply married in a religious ceremony or married because they SAID they were married."

Its true. Polygamy used to be the law of the land and traditional "biblical" marriage was and is still practiced quietly among modern Israelis and Mormons.

The historical validity for it can be found in scripture from the "Wisdom" of Solomon who bedded 700 wives and 300 concubines to King David with his multiple wives. God even promised David more wives if he wanted more proving it was "good" by biblical standards.

http://christianpolygamy.com/

http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/
Biblical scholars agree that Polygamy is God's preferred method of raising families and insuring that wives submit to their husband's authority.

"Traditional" values
When you hear someone say "traditional values," translate that to mean "MY values." It leaves no room for anyone with a different moral code.

And "family values"? That's usualy code for "anti-gay." God forbid anyone with a gay family member should consider loving that person and wanting him or her to have the opportunity for a fulfilling life to be a family value.

I applaud Dick Cheney for finally recognizing that he cannot "hate the sin" and still profess to love his gay daughter.

A cop-out
National politicians aren't necessarily advocating state rights when they say about gay marriege, "I think the states should decide."

What they're really doing is ducking the issue. If they say it should be up to each state, then they don't have to take a stand one way or the other.

A few Canadian provinces had same-sex marriage before it was finally enacted at a national leve. I think that will happen in the U.S., but I believe it will have to be a civil rights decision by the Supreme Court.

MichelleO Marriage
You think that you will be crowned as the Queen of America as soon as Dumbo gets all his oppression in place. I’ll tell you now, it won’t happen!!! Previously Dumbo insinuated that he might have Muslim leanings. Now, he has declared that he is one, and you know how Muslims treat females.

On the day that you will expect to be crowned, you will find yourself strapped to a table with somebody carving out your insides. If you are lucky, you will be sedated, but that isn’t guaranteed. You will next get to listen to the screams, as the same thing is done to your daughters. You will find all your and your daughters’ expensive designer dresses replaced with the black rags of the Taliban. Remember, Muslims consider females lower than farm animals in the hierarchy.

Each of Dumbo’s three new wives will be younger than the previous one. As the first wife, you would expect to have the dominant position over the others, but, as the wife who didn’t have a son to carry on the tradition of carving out girls, you will be in last place as the Old and Barren Wife. Is it true under Muslim law, that males cannot be punished for harming females?

You won’t be allowed to speak to Dumbo and any other males without prior permission. You won’t be allowed to leave the house without a male escort, possibly Dumbo’s brother who now lives in a shed in Kenya on $12 a year. Dumbo might bring him over and generously double his income (to $24 a year and a room) to be your escort.

Start planning your escape now. Select a country without a Muslim population and without an extradition treaty. Send every cent there that you can, putting it into a secret account. Get multiple passports for each of you and your daughters, showing different names, appearances, and sexes, and always have your passports hidden on your person.

Consider this:
In the nose of each person is a tiny opening going to a small gland called the Vomero Nasal Organ, or V.N.O.
The V.N.O. detects pheromones given off by human skin.
Pheromones are the catalyst that causes attraction between humans-Cupid’s arrows.
In heterosexual people, the V.N.O. detects opposite-sex pheromones, male to female, female to male.
In homosexual people, the V.N.O. detects same-sex pheromones, male to male, female to female.

Ron of Penn,
Are you implying that homosexual men are attracted to the odor of a mangina?

Christians and marriage
I think a lot of heterosexual Christians are into this issue because it makes them feel pious and they think they'll get brownie points from God for "upholding" the Bible, all while making no sacrifice themselves.

It's always easier and more satisfying to impose rules on others that don't apply to oneself.

Jeffrey from MI
You said "while making no sacrifice themselves."

What sacrafices should the straights make on behalf of the homosexuals?

Kevlar
Straight people don't make any sacrifice when they oppose the adoption of same-sex marriage. They can already get married. They're opposing something that doesn't affect them. It's an easy position to take because it doesn't cause any sacrifice personally. It's the reason Christians aren't too quick to legally impose other biblical rules, such as outlawing adultery or outlawing divorce: it might impose a personal sacrifice or inconvenience.

Jeffrey, I disagree with:
"It's the reason Christians aren't too quick to legally impose other biblical rules, such as outlawing adultery or outlawing divorce: it might impose a personal sacrifice or inconvenience."

Bear in mind that the flavors of Christianity are even greater than the varieties within homosexuality. But, I believe that most American Christians are firm believers in freedom of religion as laid-out by the Constitution.

Kevlar
I think there are substantial numbers of Americans who are happy to impose their selective religious beliefs on others, and favor that imposition. Many Christian Americans, in particular, favor putting Ten Commandment monuments in locations of prominence, or teaching creationism in public schools to Christian and non-Christian alike.

I bet a lot of American heterosexual Christians are willing to use perceived biblical prohibitions against homosexual behavior or biblical descriptions of marriage as between a man and a woman as reason enough to oppose same-sex marriage. My point is, these same Americans wouldn't dream of using the Bible in support of making divorce or adultery illegal. That's because they themselves might want to indulge in a little adultery or divorce themselves. They know they don't want to have a same-sex marriage so they readily sign off on outlawing that though.

Hypocritical Bishop
Well it must be Tuesday as I see Bishop Jackson once again blaming gays for all of the world's problems. I find it interesting that he calls Dick Cheney a hypocrite when Bishop Jackson is the biggest hypocrite going as he states children are best raised in a loving 2 parent family yet he berates Cheney for showing what a loving parent he is by effectively acknowledging that his homosexual daughter is no less a person than his heterosexual daughter is. I have never been one of Cheney's biggest fans but I admire the love and support he has shown towards his homosexual daughter. Cheney is not about to throw his daughter under the bus to appease the "gays are the root of all evil" wing of the Republican party. Is the good bishop as loving a parent? I doubt it.

Response to "What Is Marriage For?"
1., 2., and 3.: Plenty of heterosexual people have failed to provide for their kids, cheated on their spouse, or produced a child with someone other than their spouse. There is no reason to believe that same-sex marriage will make the situation of heterosexual couples any worse. Straight couples are failing to live up to the ideals of marriage all on their own! And please don't blame the modern world--this has been going on since time immemorial.

4. and 5. Marriage between same-sex partners also gives children (which they may have through adoption, assisted reproductive technologies, or previous heterosexual partnerships) access to loving, supportive extended families who may employ them in a family business. And it will be beneficial to these children to have their parents' marriages legally recognized.

6. Legally recognized marriage will also make it easier for same-sex couples to pass their wealth on to children. Fewer papers to fill out, hurdles to jump.

So, there is nothing in the "What Is Marriage For?" post that provides any logical reason for denying equal marriage rights to same-sex couples.

Jeffrey, your post #76
Your citing of a couple of instances within a nation of 300 million seams rather inconsequential. Especially considering that none of these went anywhere.
You and I both know that the farcicle concoction of same-sex marriage only gets approved in places with an extremely high percentage of Christians.
The evidence is that only the followers of Jesus posess the appropriate levels of tolerance and forgiveness to accept this new concept.
Wouldn't your time be better spent attacking the non-Christian world?

Proud Lib?
At present, civil unions in our state Do Not contain all of the equal rights and responsibilities as regular marriage.

In New Jersey, civil unions Do have identical rights and responsibilities as marriage.

If New Jerseys' type of civil union were on the ballot, would you vote for or against it?

Proud Lib, you stated:
"children (which they may have through adoption, assisted reproductive technologies, or previous heterosexual partnerships)"

Are you demolishing the born gay theory?

Kevlar
Earth to Kevlar: and exactly what organization was the major backer of Prop 8 in your state? I think, yes, it was the Mormon Church, which, backed by many "Christians," helped sweep away the legalized right for same-sex couples to marry.

I maintain that there are many heterosexual Christians who are only too happy to force homosexuals to live biblically through force of law, but who exempt themselves from doing so.

Born Gay, what it means.
"Are you demolishing the born gay theory?" - Kevlar

Born gay means that we do not choose our sexuality anymore than heterosexuals choose their sexuality. I don't know why I am gay, do you know why you are heterosexual?

Swampfox, you asked:
"do you know why you are heterosexual?"

Yes, Evolution.

Swampfox anf Jeffrey,
At present, civil unions in Michigan and South Carolina Do Not contain all of the equal rights and responsibilities as regular marriage.

In New Jersey, civil unions Do have identical rights and responsibilities as marriage.

If New Jerseys' type of civil union were on the ballot in your state, would you vote for or against it?

To Kevlar
I'm not saying people aren't born gay--I'm saying those are the ways in which same-sex couples may have children. I was trying to avoid those rants about gays not reproducing!

And children who have one or more gay biological or adoptive parents may be gay, or they may be straight. If there is a genetic factor in being gay, and I think there is, it's most likely recessive, as gays are a minority of the population. And I really don't care if being gay is due to heredity, environment, or some of both--I believe gay people should not be discriminated against.

And i would vote for civil unions, but would do so believing civil unions should be an incremental step toward equal marriage rights, with both federal and state recognition of the marriage.

ProudLib,
Thanks for your response.

Born gay?
I think what Kevlar was getting at in questioning the unchangeable nature of sexuality (born gay) was the mention of gays having had children from a "previous hetersexual relationship."

One of the problems in discussing gay rights is the absolute ignorance about sexuality among those who want to deny rights to gays. OF COURSE there are gay men and women who have had previous heterosexual relationships and have natural children! MANY of them! That does not mean they have changed, or that they can control or change their sexuality at will.

Some marry as a "cover." Some choose to live a heterosexual life for various reasons, but their attraction to the same sex will never change. Many people in older generations didn't even recognize their natural sexuality until after they were well into heterosexual marriages. It was a taboo subject, and they didn't admit event to themselves that they were gay.

Kinsey described sexuality on a scale from zero (totally heterosexual) to six (totally homosexual). Most people fall somewhere in between, albeit closer to one end than the other. But nearly ALL gay people have related to the opposite sex in some way at some time in their lives, and many have produced children. Mel White, the famous gay activist who founded Soulforce, appeared on "The Amazing Race" with his son.

Homosexuals who are closeted and married are all around you. You work with them, go to church with them, socialize with them -- you just don't know who they are. Sen. Larry Craig, Rev. Ted Haggard, and former New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey are simply the most visible ones and the ones who got caught in their hypocritical dalliances.

To David
Thank you--I misunderstood Kevlar. I totally believe in the Kinsey scale myself. I also always make the point that whether or not people "choose" to be gay (I don't believe it's a conscious choice, at any rate, although there is a choice whether to live openly or be closeted) should have no bearing on civil rights. People choose their religion, and our laws prohibit discrimination based on religion. So should we also prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, no matter what factors cause a person to be homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual.

Sterile atheists can get legal marriage
...Even though they cannot procreate via coitus, and they don't need any church's blessing.

Legal marriage is independent of church marraige.

There has yet to be any constitutionally consistent justification for making 'genitalia' part of a test for legal marriage.

Where is the law about upholding any tradition?
Where is the law about marriage being only for raising children?

Do bad parents lose their 'marriage rights'?

Better 2 moms, than 3 baby-daddys.

Do these guys want black gay men to experiment with women instead...

Just curious...
Name one heterosexual marriage that was pushed to divorce because of gay marriage.

Can Jews ban Americans from eating pork...to protect their kids from being taught that eating pork is acceptable? They don't believe in the NT. Should Jewish parents fight for their right to uphold their traditions, by forcing everyone else to abide by their rules?

youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoWtGS43VK8

18-page Legal Analysis of why 'legal' gay marriage will succeed...and churches won't have to change a thing:

http://morpheus1919.blogspot.com/

The next generation will fix hyper-conservative blunders of these MD pastors. If the gay's fail...I'll step in and win on their behalf.

Mother of 4
"If you think that the church won't have to recognize same-sex "marriages" you are woefully ignorant. Both in the US and abroad Christians have already been subject to legal sanction for attempting to maintain their moral principles in this area."

The US churches haven't been subject to legal sanctions here in the US. In states where gay marriage is recognized, churches are faced with losing their tax exempt status for not recognizing gay marriage. If they truly want't to maintain moral principles give up the tax exempt status. Is money more important than moral principles?

Jackson is a liar....
Jackson sure counts on laziness and fear to get his way.
Citing the tired "Swedish study" by Stanley Kurtz...(again) as impetus against marriage between gay couples.

When it's SOCIAL PROGRAMS that have made marriage UNECESSARY and unwanted, not gay couples who get married.

He's really working that 'the gays are gonna teach about it in school!' meme to death.

When it's really code for:

children won't learn that gay people are terrible and scary and that their friend's gay parents are good and kind people you don't have to fear.

You won't restore marriage on the backs of keeping gay couples disconnected from the affirming aspects of committing to and maintaining family in their own lives.

The question is still left unanswered:

How can gay people doing something (serve in uniform, commit to marriage and children needing homes) which is applauded and supported when heteros do it, POSSIBLY threaten anything?

And YES, you owe an answer that is consistent with treating hetero couples the SAME way.
I repeat: consistent with doing it for the same reasons to hetero couples.

This is going to be fun! :0P




Jackson can stuff it
'Biblical marriage'..yeah. Right.
Why does this interpretation of marriage get waved around under the noses of gay people as IF Biblical marriage is in effect right now?

As if marriage hasn't evolved and changed traditions and intents and purpose over RECENT decades?
What wetbrained woman in here really wants to 'obey' her husband?
Would expect that he could rape and beat her with no legal recourse?
What about owning her own property and being her own person?

How many men threatened their wives (and other women) with violence and divorce if they joined the suffrage and cited Biblical reasons to justify it?

Those of us listening hear the echoes of history that is NOT on your side on this one.
All the shouting down and willful deafness won't silence that reality.

Canada is a country with a similar cultural comportment as our own. They are a large nation with a similar basic government and sensibility. Marriage is legal throughout and NONE of the predicted bad consequences has come true.

Except for a certain precedent in speech directed to and about gay people. Canada warns and censures when speech becomes a liability.
Canada doesn't tolerate hate speech like we do here. And gee, they have a LOT less hate crimes too.
Of course, Jackson won't mention THAT.


Mother of 4.
Since the majority of gay people have been raised by heterosexual parents, your speech is redundant.
Those of us who support marriage equality support all you've said.

What you're NOT doing...and can't is justify why gay people won't benefit society and each other by DOING THE SAME?

You and all the opposition have NEVER answered that question.
Mostly because you refuse to be CONSISTENT with how all that is committed to by HETERO couples.
You can't restrict hetero couples for all the reasons you want to against gay couples.

Why don't you just admit that your argument is IMPOSSIBLE to commit to public policy in any consistent way and call it a day?

The many thousands of couples that got married in CA did so and none of it required any sacrifice by straight people.

It's only when you all fu*k with gay people you screw up a lot of everything else!



Single, Straight Scandinavian-American
I'm a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania. You get to see a LOT of liberal and homosexual activism there. They are "good and kind people that you don't have to fear" - AS LONG AS YOU AGREE WITH THEM. Even Jesus said it was of no significance if you love those who love you - he would be looking at how you treat those who hate you. And the rhetoric of the homosexual community doesn't make that grade.

Yes, I'm aware that some who call themselves Christians don't score very high either. Jesus again was not fooled - he said in advance that many would claim in the last judgment to have served him and be told that He never knew them. Those who describe themselves as "Christians" while blatantly disregarding Scriptural truth are not struck dead in a moment because God is long suffering. Neither the serial killer who was repeatedly elected president of his Lutheran congregation, nor the recently departed Dr. Tiller who sucked babies' brains out and crushed their skulls while serving as an usher - again in a Lutheran congregation. (Hmm...)

Let's stop vilifying conservatives and weeping for homosexuals and other liberals. ALL are humans, ALL have the problem described by Jeremiah as "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know." Without Jesus Christ, our common and mutual fate would be eternal perdition. Liberals and conservatives alike. And Jesus Christ, being One with the Father who inspired the Mosaic prohibitions of homosexuality, is on record as not liking it. (Look at Chapter 1 of the Roman epistle.) He's God. He's in charge. He doesn't want it. Eventually, the case will be closed.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber
We have a lot in common - more than just long-windedness and a choice of clunky title lines. Much as I sometimes disagree with Mark Twain, I still find some of his remarks worth remembering, such as: "Man is the only animal with the ability to laugh at itself - or the need." It may sound strange to say that and then say that I respect and agree with a lot of what you said. But it makes a point.

Whoever it was that said, (a lot of scrolling ago), that some Christians are more interested in demonstrating their own piety than actually making sacrifices to effect change, was partially right. Right about SOME, but by no means all. Not everyone who fought in World War Two had perfectly pure motives. I'm sure they ran the gamut, including Klansmen and anti-Semites. But if we had had no draft and rigorously screened enlistees for moral purity, well, Michael Haydn's tune to "Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles" was rather catchy. I suppose we'd have gotten used to it.

The fact is, we may NOT win against gay marriage. The end times of apostasy may be at hand. That doesn't mean we should give up striving to live godly (and expect persecution as promised by Scripture). It does mean we should remember that "by works of the flesh shall no man be justified." The most fervent proponent of traditional marriage and the most flagrant disciple of the homosexual goals quoted by "henry" above will alike end up in perdition's flames if they do not accept that their personal sin problem exists and that only Jesus Christ can erase it and transform them.

Our earnestness is not our salvation. It is not society's salvation. "The joy of the Lord is your strength," said Nehemiah, when he told the Jewish exiles to respond to the reading of God's Word - even with its recitation of their grievous past national sins - by having a huge party. THEN, they got back to work.

well then Ken...
You are making a religious case, and those who CHOOSE, and they are free to do so, can live by what THEY choose.
So forcing gay people to the margins has accomplished what?
It's not much of a leap to suspect why homosexuality was frowned on.
We can build on the mistakes of religion, a new house, the way we embrace the rise of women in free societies and all they accomplish when that happens.
So what about the Mosaic prohibition on homosexuality? Too much of this argument is religion based, most religious cultures have NO sense of the nature of gender and how to treat those who are gender variant.

Females are not held in much esteem, so therefore, if they don't meet the artificial expectations 'meant' for them, or men have characteristics that seem too much like that of women and vice versa, well, this is treated as actionable with violence.
People are taught to be threatened by this natural occurrence and it's off to the races.

We, in so many other areas of human relations and progress have done so well. These reactions against gay people are persistently PRIMITIVE and not especially enlightened, but assumptions layered over ignorance matted with deliberate defamation.

I feel sorry for God, God is defamed too. Given the blame and impetus for so much violence and human misery.
As we more embrace freedom, empathy and the value of fairness and real justice, we are better in ways fundamentally religious cultures never are.

What if....
you loved your dog so much that you wanted to marry it. Would you then propose legislation to be allowed to legally marry your beloved Fido? I know that sounds silly, but it's only the next step. It's the pursuit of happiness (do whatever makes you feel good).

Our country was founded on basic principles. Those principals are based on christian beliefs. Christian beliefs come from Biblical scripture. Biblical scripture goes against sodomy, whether it's with the same sex or heterosexual. Marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman. I realize that not everyone believes in scripture, but if you are going to make an argument in favor of gay marriage, you cannot base it on that very scripture. You cannot pick the Bible apart and only reference the parts that seem to support your agenda.
Come to think of it, didn't Satan try to use scripture against our Lord?

sherwin
A dog cannot consent, sign a marriage license or give primary care and custody to a human.

When, when, WHEN will that STUPID conjecture regarding marriage between animals and inanimate objects go AWAY?!

As for the rest, the ONLY restrictions are age minimum and kinship STATUS.
PRIMACY and CONSENT are the paramount standards for marriage.
You GOT an answer sherwin, don't ask it again.
Are we DONE with this sh*t already?

so where are your beliefs in...
No our country's foundation is in equal justice, fairness and responsibility.

We are expected to treat our freedoms and rights with respect and agree on them with essential common function.

We have progressed from restricting the rights and freedoms of another citizen based on their biological attributes, religion, national origin. We are a nation of people with many differences who CAN live under the same basic function.

The most moral and ethical religious tenet common among most cultures is treating another the way YOU'D want to be treated. This is from where the most ethical judgments and actions flow.
SHERWIN.
So where is your religious principle in THAT regard?
Our nation was founded specifically to avoid a STATE religion, a PREFERRED religion sanctioned by the state.
We don't enforce it here.

You want to live in a nation like that, you're in the wrong place.
And there is NO LAW that should be imposed on gay citizens that they be excluded from the same protections and privileges as other citizens. Especially with regard to the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
It's not the Bible that granted these rights, but the very documents which is our nation's contract with all of us.

I stand with you Pastor Harry!
Another homosexual activist judge fighting hard to preserve the STD curse on the earth and the social destruction of America. As he and other like judges seek to defy the will of the citizens of America, he represents the same sort of politics the current anti-democracy regime in Iran employs. Instead of authoritative Islamic mullahs usurping legislative powers away from the people, in America, we have socialist-leaning secular humanist extremists waging an unholy war against the will of the people. The vote over marriage belongs to the voters not the courts.

I hereby call for a national RECALL on all activist judges in America. We need to start with the judge in Washington DC and the 9th Circuit Court. Let's put power back in the hands of the American people. How can America reflect the values of Democracy before other nations while it is not happening within our own boarders? No wonder Russia is abandoning the very freedoms that democracy provides by ramping up greater power in their central government over the press, businesses, banking, personal property, and even placing restrictions on the freedom of religion. No matter how people strive, human government will never be able to take the place of God over or within people's lives.

Let's evict these activist judges out of their positions legally while there is still an opportunity. America is currently under siege by a coup of activist lawyers and judges imposing the religion of secular humanism in order to pave the way for totalitarianism. As a naturally born American citizen (non-like some of our national leaders) I refuse to bow down to judicial tyranny. These judges are a threat to America's future and national security.

http://www.cross.tv/8245

- HMH JR
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