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Wednesday, July 08, 2009
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
McNamara's Mind
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- The death of Robert McNamara at 93 was less a faint reverberation of a receding era than a reminder that mentalities are the defining attributes of eras, and certain American mentalities recur with, it sometimes seems, metronomic regularity. McNamara came to Washington from a robust Detroit -- he headed Ford when America's swaggering automobile manufacturers enjoyed 90 percent market share -- to be President John Kennedy's secretary of defense. Seemingly confident that managing the competition of nations could be as orderly as managing competition among the three participants in Detroit's oligopoly, McNamara entered government seven months before the birth of the current president, who is the owner and, he is serenely sure, fixer of General Motors.

Today, something unsettlingly similar to McNamara's eerie assuredness pervades the Washington in which he died. The spirit is: Have confidence, everybody, because we have, or soon will have, everything -- really everything -- under control.

The apogee of McNamara's professional life, in the first half of the 1960s, coincided, not coincidentally, with the apogee of the belief that behavioralism had finally made possible a science of politics. Behavioralism held -- holds; it is a hardy perennial -- that the social and natural sciences are not so different, both being devoted to the discovery of law-like regularities that govern the behavior of atoms, hamsters, humans, whatever.

Two of behavioralism's reinforcing assumptions were: Things that can be quantified can be controlled. And everything can be quantified. So, pick a problem, any problem. Military insurgency in Indochina? The answer is counterinsurgency. What can be, and hence must be, quantified? Body counts, surely. Bingo: A metric of success.

Not exactly. The behavior of the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong did not respond as expected to America's finely calibrated stimuli, such as bombing this but not that, and bombing pauses. Behavioralists were disappointed, but not discouraged. They would give nation-building another try.

It was in reaction to the mentality that McNamara represented that "The Public Interest" quarterly was born. Its founders were intellectuals, many of whom were called "neoconservatives" when that designation was more relevant to domestic than foreign policy. The journal's mission was to insist that (as Daniel Patrick Moynihan, then a Harvard social scientist, said) the function of social science is not to tell us what to do but to tell us what does not work. What did not work in the 1960s, at home and abroad, was quite a lot.

McNamara died on a day when there was interesting news from Asia, the region of his torments: There was lethal ethnic rioting in China. That development refutes, redundantly, the prophecy of a 19th-century social scientist, Karl Marx. Believing that he had discerned the laws of social physics, he said that the coming of modernity -- the rise of science and the retreat of religion under the rationality of market societies -- would mean that preindustrial factors such as religion and ethnicity would lose their history-shaping saliency.

So far, the 21st century is vexed by nothing so much as those supposed residues of humanity's infancy. Nevertheless, Marx's anticipation morphed into what Moynihan called "the liberal expectancy." It is the hope -- liberals tend to treat hopes as probabilities -- that the fading of those atavisms and superstitions has put the world on a path to perpetual tranquility.

The world McNamara has departed could soon be convulsed by attempts to modify Iran's behavior. Since a variety of incentives have been unavailing, more muscular measures -- perhaps "surgical strikes," a phrase redolent of the McNamara mentality -- are contemplated.

Some persons fault the president for not having more ambitious plans to somehow prompt and guide Iranians toward regime change. That outcome is sometimes advocated, and its consequences confidently anticipated, by neoconservatives whose certitude about feasibility resembles that which, decades ago, neoconservatism was born to counter.

Well. Every four years we saturate New Hampshire -- that small, English-speaking, culturally homogenous, ethnically temperate sliver of tranquil New England -- with politicians, consultants, journalists and political scientists. And often we are surprised -- even dumbfounded -- by how unpredictably that state's people, with their native perversity, choose to behave in their presidential primary.

McNamara, like many who leave high office, never left the capital of this nation that believes people learn from history, and that therefore history is linear and progressive. But the capital, gripped once again by the audacious hope of mastering everything, would be wise to entertain a shadow of a doubt about that.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Nice
Excellent column. The struggle between rationalists and empiricists is the defining feature of Western civilization. Plato v. Aristotle; Locke v. Rousseau; Burke v. Jacobins; Neo-Cons/Liberals v. Conservatives.

Additionally, both Rational Idealists and Religious Idealists, though their motives may be pure, are probably the mainspring of more human suffering than any other source through the history of mankind.

So long McNamara.

An 'American mentality'?
He was a numbers cruncher, a 'whiz kid,' who had no patience for anything that couldn't be worked out with a slide-rule -- not wisdom, not human intuition, not gut instinct.

Good column, but I'm not sure he represents an 'American mentality.' In many respects he was a oner, and everything he touched -- the Edsel, Vietnam, the World Bank -- was a disaster.

When You Think About It.
Good column, and it got me thinking. Since about the year 1800, what have the guys running the US Government done, that turned out any good? Not what the people of the US have done, what the guys running the government have done.

Name one thing.

Oh, I just thought of one -- national parks. Yes, Yellowstone and Yosemite are quite good things.

McNamara had Vietnam Right
He supported President Diem, but Henry Cabot Lodge overwhelmed him. Will is blowing a little psychobabble here, but still a fine column.

1960 Republican
Stopping Hillarycare in 1994.

John.
I think it was the people, who stopped Hillarycare, just like the people stopped that amnesty thing, a few years ago.

Nah, it's still just Yellowstone and Yosemite.

If you add up the intellect...
...of all other TH columnists, they still can't equal George Will at his worst -- and this is one of his brightest.

PS... let's not forget that Robert MacNamara was father of the Ford Falcon, the company's true biggest success of the 1960's (it in turn spawned the Mustang).

pb
Actually, Macnamara opposed the Edsel as a dumb idea, and killed it as soon as he became company president.

(PS, when posting on TH, don't you hate when you type a whole post, and then see that the page is so busy loading junk at the bottom that your writing never registers?)

U.S.Still A Target
KGB Defector: U.S. Still Target for Moscow

Tuesday, July 7, 2009 6:59 PM

By: Rick Pedraza Article Font Size



As President Barack Obama embarked on his week-long international trip yesterday, the first stop and main focus of the journey took him to Moscow, where he hopes to “reset” tense U.S.-Russian relations on nuclear arms and other issues.

But a former Russian diplomat who defected to the United States in 2000 said yesterday on Fox News that Washington should not fall into the trap of thinking the Cold War is over and that Russia is still bent on destroying America.

“People ask me all the time, ‘What has happened after the Cold War?’ And I’m always asking them, ‘Who told you that the Cold War was ever over?’” said former KGB spy Sergi Tretyakov.

“It transforms; it’s like a virus,” Tretyakov, one of the highest KGB spies to ever defect and subject of the best-selling book, “Comrade J: The Untold Secrets of Russia’s Master Spy in America after the End of the Cold War,” told Fox News.

“In the former Russian military doctrine, the definition of ‘potential main enemy/adversary’ was ‘the United States, NATO and China.’ In today’s doctrine, and especially the doctrine of modern Russian intelligence, the definition of ‘main target’ is ‘the United States, NATO and China.’


1960Republican
Since 1800?

I myself am very fond of Jefferson's Louisiana Purchase of 1803, providing Bonaparte much needed capital, and us a couple dozen of much needed states. I am also a secret admirer of James Knox Polk for the 1848 Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo, though it is clear that that particular conflict is as yet unresolved.

I think we'we may ultimately lose that war, but not owing to the failures of Winfield Scott and Zachary Taylor, but to the failures of soft-bellied political cowards like George Bush and Prince Barry.

McNamara, Management Guru and Activist
He did represent a slice of professional American life -that of management guru. In a way, he was an dogmatist in the same way any true believer is. Will is correct in stating that McNamara represented that stream of intellectuals that believed everything was rational, and could thus could be quantified -even wars.

McNamara was responsible not only for assisting in the escalation of Viet Nam, but also attempting (at least initially) to trim defense spending at the same time. The year 1965 was quite confusing for the Army, as it was short of helicopters, weapons, supplies. The beginning of the end for McNamara was 1965. On paper, both a reduction-in-force and an expanding combat role in Vietnam were possible. McNamara couldn't understand it -numbers don't lie, do they? Personnel shortages were so high that the Army didn't even have enough officers to deliver official condolences to the war widows. The Army had to farm that out to taxicab drivers and Wester Union employees -with predictable results (Col Hal Moore in his book, "We were Soldiers" described in heart breaking detail this episode).

It was also McNamara who insisted on 15 month individual troop rotations, which put the Army and Marines in a definite disadvantage vis-a-vis the VC and NVA. His goal wasn't necessairily to win the Vietnam War as it was to manage it. The results were disasterous.

It took a number of years for McNamara to rehabilitate his reputation. And that was only possible if he adopted the Zeitgiest of the times. He race to the Far Left was invetiable, and only underscores John Sullivan's dictim that unless a person is a rock solid conservative, he will overtime become progressively liberal.

RIP

hmmmm
"But the capital, gripped once again by the audacious hope of mastering everything, would be wise to entertain a shadow of a doubt about that."

You mean like when we invaded Iraq in 2003?

Whiz kid
He worked for the King of Camelot and then the Whizzer. Why is the political blame dumped on the whiz kid? Maybe it keeps the King of Camelot shining brightly.

Remember me;
Will we remember Emanuel in the same light, and Obama as LBJ? They may not be using the same formulas but I believe the same directions and quite possibly the same results. 58,000 candles on his cake?

WILL CONTINUES TO NOT GET IT
only the very old, like george will, care about history. complete american history is not taught in our schools. george's thinking is not taught in our schools either. his time has long past. why is he still given space at townhall.

John
" "But the capital, gripped once again by the audacious hope of mastering everything, would be wise to entertain a shadow of a doubt about that."

You mean like when we invaded Iraq in 2003? "

Actually, we had a different mindset in 2003 than we did in 1964-65. I mean 3000 dead civilians, the Twin Towers destroyed, and the Pentagon hit. If you remember, FDR believed that Germany was a far greater threat than Japan, despite Japan being the nation that attacked Pearl Harbor. Iraq was the same line of thinking. AQ may have been behind 9/11, but Iraq and Iran, and NKorea poised the greater long term threat.

My name is McNamara, I'm the leader ...
Read about the Whiz Kids. It is fascinating history. During the war, WWII, they used their industrial and academic experience to develop optimal contingencies for a variety of allied efforts, from the best use of industrial resources to distribution of defenses and instruments of war - probably intelligence assessment as well.

What ended the war? The utter destruction of German cities like Dresden and Japanese cities like Hiroshima, not surgical strikes or limited collateral damage campaigns - study Operation Market Garden.

Mac, for some reason, forgot this. Maybe it was the fatigue of WWII. Maybe it was the intervening years. Maybe it was regret.

War is indeed hell. Police actions don't insure liberty. Victory does. Unfortunately, in the grim process, treasures are lost and soldiers and, even worse, innocent civilians die.

Continue not to get it? lbs;
An old saw, a pilot, once said; We must learn from the mistakes of others. We will not live long enough to make them all ourselves.(sic)

If we are not teaching, we are not learning.
You old fool, what do you know.

1960Republican
The Hubble Telescope perhaps?
Sending a man to the moon?

Tommy.
Oh, you're right. I knew there was something, and I should have remembered it, as I live in the Louisiana Purchase.

OK, since 1803 then.

Scott. The moon, yeah, but he came back, left a Golf ball. And, close-ups of black holes are OK, too, I guess.

OK, we've got three good things the guys of the government have done, since 1803. There might be others. Let's hear about them

McNamara and the Whiz Kids ..

My graduate level statistics professor seriously suggested in the late 1970's that the People's Republic of Vietnam should fund several endowed chairs in departments of Operations Research in major U.S. universities. This grant was to be given in recognition of inadvertent services rendered.

One of McNamara and Johnson's major blunders was to ignore the recommendation of experienced field commanders.

There was even an active program to 'provide' automated decision aids for field commanders to help them decide how to approach villages. Imagine being expected to consult the output of a computer program in the field in 1960's Vietnam. I saw that computer program, read it through and through -- nothing more than an event-driven simulation based upon Lanchester's equations for attrition. There is no operational understanding in the mission context to be gained from such. Irony of ironies, that computer program was named "Guevara".

This was pretty small beer compared to controlling bombing raids and ground operations from Washington D.C.

That mindset cost lives.


1960republican
When did the USA buy Alaska from Russia?

Ever heard of the Gadsden Purchase?

No Use for McNamara
As a soldier who served nearly two years in Vietnam I had no use for the man. His orders were ridiculous; such as "don't shoot at an enemy unless you can guarantee that your bullet only hits him." He was a non-military man serving a political office and should never been placed in that position. All his decisions were made to help the Democrat Party and had nothing to do with the war or saving American (and Vietnamese) lives.

45caliber
Still a sellout to the Republican party, eh?

Did you know that two million North Vietnamese civilians died during the Vietnam war?

What was the purpose of Agent Orange? Are you still peddling the inane idea you were under orders to do no harm to Vietnamese 'infrastructure?'

McN's mistakes were endless
I had lunch with 2 other Vietnam combat vets yesterday and none of us could gin up any sympathy for McNamara. Indeed, with effort, we kept ourselves from cursing him. Ever hear of the McNamara Line in Northern I Corps?...a line of static Beau Geste-type points that Mc believed would inhibit NVA movement---HAH!! All it did was keep the 3rd Marine Div.busy wasting time, material and lives building and defending them--WHILE--being close enough to be shelled by heavy artillery North of the DMZ. Marine Commanders pleaded against this proven and patently dangerous idea but NOPE!! Could'nt tell that bastd. anything. I don't want to say anymore

1960 Republican
C'mon buddy. A Republican led government successfully prosecuted a Civil War, thereby freeing millions of human beings from bondage while keeping the USA intact. May i recommend James McPherson's BATTLE CRY OF FREEDOM and Doris Kearns Goodwin's TEAM OF RIVALS.

Vietnam: Another War of Empire
I am a former member of the US military and have nothing but respect for any member of the US military, but many of us in the military now or in the past have been pawns of this government that engages in Wars of Empire. Vietnam and Korea were mistakes. They did not attack us. We used our former immense wealth to improperly play world cop until it eventually became national policy even when we eventually became broke. Our Founding Fathers warned us never to engage in foreign entanglements or alliances. They wanted to avoid any semblance of Empire; thye were fighting the British Empire and looked with disdain on the treasure-draining, often egotistical and petty wars of Europe. The world bankers that own the FED and run the Bilderbergs have been bankrolling America's enemies forever. They bankrolled Hitler, Chairman Mao, and Lenin. They have profited from war lending on both sides of the conflicts. They are likely even doing the same today with GWOT.

Rick
The Republicans of 1860 passed a tariff on cotton that punished and threatened the South economically. It was designed to protect the fledgling textile industries of the North at the expense of the cotton-producing Southern States who depended heavily on British trade for their livelihood. Slavery was Lincoln's sideshow and political cover to excite Northerners to enlist in the Civil War. Many Northerners at the time weren't altogether convinced that the South didn't have legitimate gripe. That's why the South has always called this war the "War for Southern Independence" instead of the "Civil War" or the "War for Southern Slavery". I encourage you to visit the Southern White House of Jefferson Davis and the neighboring museum in Richmond, VA. In almost every room of the Southern White House, there is a portrait of George Washington because the South believede they were carrying on the same Independence of our Founding Fathers by leaving a Union that was deliberately infringing on States' rights and States' commerce.

The spirit that prevades Washington
is arrogance. But the arrogant generally find that reality will knock them down. But sometimes, it takes a LOT of reality.

Take Back
I agree with your take on the reason the South fought the war. The South tried to pull out of the Union for economic reasons. The North wanted the South to stay in because they needed the markets - under their control of course.

There is a strong push to revise history and has been for some time. One man I know has a history degree - but he won't teach because he must teach revisionist history. I recently wore a tee shirt with a rebel flag on it. A high school boy commented on it and said that a picture of the Rebel Battle Flag was in one of his histroy books. They asked the teacher what it was - and she wouldn't tell them. It isn't just about the Civil War (or War Between the States) either.

It is in all history. I don't know if you are old enough to remember but my daughter's history book actually stated that the military in Vietnam LOST the war - and that "heroic" Senators managed to form a truce long enough to pull out the soldiers before they could be wiped out! Considering I fought there two years it REALLY made me mad! But the liberal historians don't want the youth to know that it was the Senators who gave away every victory the military made and then blamed it on them.

zap
You apparently didn't read what I wrote yesterday. However I suspect you are too young to remember and believe the pap the government schools fed you.

First, believe it or not, I'm a registered Democrat - but a conservative one. I don't happen to like the Republican Party - partly because they have similiar platforms.

Second, I was there in Vietnam. I KNOW what was going on there. If you don't believe the orders I say we received, talk to other Vietnam vets who served in the Infantry. Those in the rear may or may not have known.

Third, why should I care that two million Vietnamese were killed? The ones near us weren't. I could care less about those in North Vietnam.

Fourth, in answer to a comment by you yesterday, there was almost no bombing in the South. No targets. So why should I care?

zap: To continue
Agent Orange? Do you know anything about it at all? It has 1/2% of dioxine in it as the active ingredient. It kills plants. I happen to work in the chemical industry and have since I graduated from college - AFTER I served in Vietnam. One of my jobs was to destroy Agent Orange for the government. We had a month long course on how dangerous Agent Orange really is. (BORING!)

Dioxine is harmless to humans. I've seen too much of the evidence. The environmentalists got it declared a hazard because they wanted to make sure it wasn't used on vegetation. But the government didn't figure that out until after they had promised billions of dollars to a lot of people. When it was pointed out to them, their comment was that if they agknowledged it, too many people would sue them. And they were right.

Look up the Form R regs on environmental reporting. It says that any chemical is toxic if it will harm creatures OR IF THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT IS. That's why the comment is there - Agent Orange.

zap again:
Incidently, I can tell you are from the North. If you were from the South, you'd never call anyone a liar. It would cost you some teeth. People in the South seldom lie - it is considered a worse crime than murder. Everyone agrees that generally you have a reason to murder someone. Besides, lying is a type of murder - you murder someone's honesty and reputation. But those of you in the North never learned that fact. That's why I avoid doing business with the North if I can. Lying, cheating is 'just business'.

45caliber
"Agent Orange? Do you know anything about it at all?"

Yes, it's a chemical defoliant. The USA used it to uncover and expose the Ho Chi Minh trail in both North and South Vietnam.

You lied, yesterday, when you said the US armed forces were 'banned' from targeting the Communist infrastructure. We did. No amount of shilling for the Republican party line can change that.

45caliber
"People in the South seldom lie."

Baloney. On February 1, 2003, the space shuttle Columbia disintegrated during re-entry over Texas, on its 28th mission, killing all seven crew members.

The Texas state government proclaimed it a 'natural disaster' thus enabling the Bush administration to transfer several hundred million of taxpayer's dollars to farmers with Republican political connections.

They used the death of seven American astronauts as an excuse for a clever wealth redistribution program to their fellow Texans. I think it's disgraceful.

45caliber
"Third, why should I care that two million Vietnamese were killed? The ones near us weren't. I could care less about those in North Vietnam."

South Vietnamese civilian dead: 1,581,000
Cambodian civilian dead: ~700,000
Vietnamese civilian dead: ~2,000,000
Laotian civilian dead: ~50,000

The USA armed Ho Chi Minh and the Communists in WWII to fight the Japanese. When the war was over the USA told Ho Chi Minh and the Vietnamese people to accept the French as their colonial masters, once again, and hand over their weapons to them.

In colonial times, the Vietnamese were expected to get off a sidewalk and into the gutter if a Frenchman was passing. They did not like this. Many Vietnamese saw the Vietnam War not as a war of 'Democracy and Capitalism' versus Marxism-Leninism but as a desire to run their own country.

Many in the South Vietnamese government and military were more interested in chasing skirts, drinking French wine, pastries and cheese than their North Vietnamese counterparts were. They looked upon the Americans as carrying the full freight of the war.

When Nixon and Kissinger signed the Paris Peace Accords they were doomed.





zap:
I was speaking of the SOUTH when I said we weren't to destroy any infrastructure. Infantry, which I was in, didn't fight in the North. As I stated earlier, I really don't care about the North. What we did there simply pointed out how really good soldiers we were. If you believe (like many liberals seem to do) that a war should be fought with the same number of casualties on both sides and no civilians can be targetted for any reason, you are a fool. I just hope you never end up in a war situation because you would undoubtedly get someone killed. While I don't really care if a fool gets himself killed, I do care when he gets others killed too. No soldier is going to stand there and let himself be killed because some liberal believes that he shouldn't shoot back. Personally I think it would be a good idea for every high school graduate to go through military training before doing anything else including going to college. It might teach them a few things liberals like you seldom learn - because if you did learn them you wouldn't be a liberal any more.


zap - on your lying comments
I reserve the right to make an exception of any and all politicians. Any money coming to Texas or anywhere else for any political reason is not the norm for the people although it is for politicians. And your comment about "farmers with Republican connections" is funny. Almost all farmers are conservatives; they have to be to be able to run a farm. Liberal wild ideas simply run a farm into the ground almost instantly.

zap: The humorist
Americans didn't kill South Vietnamese. The North Vietnamese did. Several reasons for this; one is greed. If I shot South Vietnamese, I was shooting the people I was supposed to protect - and they knew it. If I shot prisoners, I was risking losing any info they might be able to give me, including anything I might use. If I turned them over to the South Vietnamese (all prisoners were - we kept none) they would talk sooner or later - and then the South Vietnamese could shoot them. I didn't care.

Cambodian civilian dead? When the North established their bases in Cambodia, the people there fled if they were able. We bombed the bases. Why harm the Cambodians? They didn't do anything to us. On the other hand, the North did harm them. Don't blame Americans for their deaths. Apparently you are trying to place ALL blame on the U.S. - just like your hero, Obama does.


zap -continue
We turned them over to the French? Where on earth did you get that idea? We simply pulled out after WWII. Were we supposed to stay and rule things? I thought you liberals were against that idea. Again, this sounds like a liberal argument that everything in the world is our fault. Try to realize that we DO NOT CONTROL what other countries do. Nor should we.

Your comments about many South Vietnamese chasing skirts, etc. just means they are like our own politicians. What is your point? We soldiers could have cared less about them. It was the people we were trying to help. And the South Vietnamese were trying to "run their own country". Do you honestly think that the poople in Vietnam "run their own country" now? Not hardly! A few Communist leaders do it.

They were certainly doomed when the Peace Treaty was signed. But don't blame Nixon and Kissinger. They signed a treaty agreed to by Senator HH Humphrey (D) and his friends. Later, they called it a truce since it certainly wasn't a treaty. All Nixon did was sign it. But don't think I'm speaking up for him. He was as bad as Humphrey was.

45caliber
"No soldier is going to stand there and let himself be killed because some liberal believes that he shouldn't shoot back."

Yet another in a long list of Republican talking points. They like to push the line that 'liberals' force the military to 'keep the gloves on' when fighting an insurgency.

General Petraeus's technique of effective counterinsurgency is to keep the gloves on. The number of insurgents is not a fixed number.

For example, take the Allied invasion of Sicily in 1943. If there are 50,000 Germans on Sicily and we inflict 20,000 German casualties then that means there are 30,000 Germans left to fight.

When fighting an insurgency this is not the case. Much of it depends on what 'motivates' civilians to become an insurgent. This is the core of Petraeus's' technique.

Say you are fighting 5,000 insurgents and you kill 3,000. How many are left? Maybe 2000, maybe 10,000, or maybe 0.

Bombing North Vietnam created insurgents.
Indiscriminantly killing civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan creates insurgents which is
why General Petraeus is very concerned with
civilian casualties.

45caliber
"We simply pulled out after WWII."

France had been smashed by the Nazi's in WWII, remember? The French military were transported on US ships.

In 1950, to combat the spread of Communism, the United States began supplying the French military in Vietnam with advisors and funding its efforts against the “red” Viet Minh.

Many Vietnamese began to see Americans as the new colonizers.


zap - again you don't know ...
... what you're talking about.

Vietnam and Iraq are totally different. Sorry, but true.

Bombing in North Vietnam did NOT create insurgents - although it might have improved enlistment in their army there. All "insurgents", if you like to use that term, were South Vietnamese Viet Cong and we seldom ran into them very often. Most didn't even know how to shoot a gun since they were young kids the North talked into working for them. The North sent down army units. In Iraq it might create some insurgents but we weren't killing South Vietnamese. And the South Vietnamese were happy every time we killed one from the North. Even the South Vietnamese weren't worried about the Viet Cong. At most their idea of causing problems was to ride down a street on a motorcycle and spray bullets at a crowd. Since all their police and many others had guns they usually didn't get very far. It was the North Vietnamese army units they feared and we generally fought.

zap: the French
The French Foreign Legion was sent to Vietnam because the French colonists were being shot. The Foreign Legion is Foreign for a good reason - most were criminals and they didn't want them in France. As for us taking them there - so what if we did? We were doing a favor for an ally, not forcing them to move there. And none of the South Vietnamese figured we were colonizing them. I doubt if the North did. Talk to some of the Vietnamese brought over when they took the south. There are plenty around. At least plenty around here. And we bring in about 500,000 a year as legal immigrants into (mostly) California from camps in Thialand. They wait in line to come and can't wait to get here. If they were being colonized as you say, they wouldn't want to come.

Again, ask some vets and Vietnamese. The government pap is getting to you.

Got to run.

45caliber
"Bombing in North Vietnam did NOT create insurgents."

Many Northerners volunteered to infiltrate into the South after such bombings.


45caliber
"Again, ask some vets and Vietnamese."

I have, many had ties to the Colonialists and like to impress me with their knowledge of the French language, and have an appetite for fine French wine and Hennessey cognac. Some have told me that the best time of their life was when they went to military school in France.

The quality I admire
in McNamara is his ability to self-reflect on his actions while in office and to provide us with a list of guidelines.

I basically disagree with all of the decisions he made.

But I am overwhelmed at the profound wisdom of his 11 life lessons:

1. Empathize with your enemy
2. Rationality will not save us
3. There's something beyond one's self
4. Maximize efficiency
5. Proportionality should be a guideline in war
6. Get the data
7. Belief and seeing are often both wrong
8. Be prepared to reexamine your reasoning
9. In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil
10. Never say never
11. You can't change human nature


If only we had political leaders who would do the inner work first, not 30 years after the fact!

45 cal
God Bless you sir for your service, we remember
those days and the useful idiots who were Gen. Giaps fellow travelers. My husband's reserve status was activated (Navy) but nothing came of it, years later we learned that after Kennedy died, LBJ was persuaded to go to the draft rather than reserves because the American people would 'question' it or something like that. The person who told us that was a former officer and POW. (Ya think it was Robert STRANGE
McNamara who talked LBJ into that?)
We will never forget what the likes of John "I was in vietnam" Kerry did to you guys, or Hanoi Jane amd all the other "student" useful idiots who are now running our government as the Majority.
Anyway, having said all that, Zap is a SAP, you won't get through to him, he's a brainwashed and possibly braindead product of my native states school system. (I graduated when they still educated, and taught us to be proud of our American heritage and Massachusetts role in
creating this country). He's been taught to be ashamed.

reply to Take Back the Government
If the Civil War was just about economics--a very Marxist take on it, by the way--then how come most of the declarations of secession include reference to the rightness of preserving slavery? Go look 'em up and read 'em yourself.

The Civil War
The Civil War was about power. Lincoln believed in an all-powerful, centralized Federal government. The South still believed that states had sovereignty. Like his predecessors, Stalin and Mao, Lincoln did not care how many people died to assert his dominion.

The Old Republic died in that conflict. There were brief respites during the heyday of the Bourbon Democrats, the 1920's, 1980's somewhat, and the 1990's; but Lincoln's dream of centralized power has progressed mightily.


qhoratius
"The South still believed that states"

The South's only core belief was in the plantation system. They believed that they could treat certain human beings as 'labor units' if certain people's did not possess the correct skin pigmentation according to their self-absorbed interpretation of the bible. Face it, they were evil-doers and doing the work of Satan.

Tea Party
Thank you for your comments. I know I can't get through to zap - he is brain dead and stuffed so full of government sh*t that he has no room for knowledge or common sense. But I also suspect that many others who read these notes would believe me about what happened.

The entire war was arranged to keep people's attention off of economic problems. When the economy recovered we were pulled out to give the Democrats a political talking point. In fact, HH Humphrey tried to run for President on the grounds that he had "saved" the troops. Unlike Iraq, despite what the politicians would want us to believe now, it was certainly possible to win in Vietnam. Luckily, enough vets and their families remembered what Humphrey had really done and voted against him.
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