Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Sunday, February 08, 2009
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
How Congress Trumps Darwin
by George Will
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



WASHINGTON -- "Descended from the apes!" exclaimed the wife of the bishop of Worcester. "Let us hope that it is not true, but if it is, let us pray that it will not become generally known."

An American majority resists such an annoying notion, endorsing the proposition that "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years." Still, evolution is a fact and its mechanism is natural selection: Creatures with variations especially suited to their environmental situation have more descendants than do less well-adapted creatures.

This Thursday, the 200th anniversary of the births of Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln, remember that Lincoln mattered more. Without Darwin, other scientists would have discerned natural selection. Indeed, Darwin's friend Alfred Wallace already had. Without Lincoln, the United States probably would have been sundered into at least two nations. Probably into more: Southerners, a fractious tribe, would not have played nicely together in the Confederacy for very long.

Unlike Lincoln, Darwin still disturbs humanity's peace of mind. Some people flinch from the idea of natural selection, aka "survival of the fittest," because it suggests Lord Tennyson's "nature, red in tooth and claw." But Darwin, in the last paragraph of "The Origin of Species," saw beauty:

"Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."

Walt Whitman, seared by Lincoln's war to guarantee the nation's survival, adopted a materialist's mysticism about the slaughter: Human immortality is in earth's transformation of bodies into an "unseen essence and odor of surface and grass, centuries hence."

After Copernicus dislodged humanity from the center of the universe, Marx asserted that false consciousness -- we do not really "make up our minds" -- blinds us to the fact that we are in the grip of an implacable dialectic of impersonal forces. Darwin placed humanity in a continuum of all protoplasm. Then Freud declared that the individual's "self" or personhood is actually a sort of unruly committee. All this dented humanity's self-esteem.

Still, many people of faith find Darwinism compatible with theism: God, they say, initiated and directs the dynamic that Darwin described. In the end, Darwin, in spite of perfunctory rhetorical references to "the Creator," disagreed. As a scientist dealing with probabilities, and with a profoundly materialist theory, he had no intellectual room for a directing deity that wills a special destination for our species.

Darwin's rejection of premeditated design helped to validate an analogous political philosophy. The fact of order in nature does not require us to postulate a divine Orderer, and the social order does not presuppose an order-giving state. As a practical matter, we cannot expel government from our understanding of society as Darwin expelled God from the understanding of nature. But Darwinism opens the mind to the fecundity of undirected, spontaneous, organic social arrangements -- to Edmund Burke and Friedrich Hayek.

Speaking of government, in 1973 Congress passed the Endangered Species Act. It said that when identifying an "endangered" or "threatened" species, the government should assess not only disease, predation and threats to its habitat but also "other natural ... factors affecting its continued existence." Natural factors?

Four years later, the act held up construction of a Tennessee dam deemed menacing to the snail-darter minnow. Ed Yoder, a learned and sometimes whimsical columnist, noted that it was under Tennessee's "monkey law" that John Scopes was tried in 1925 for teaching biology in a way considered incompatible with "Genesis." While not equating Tennessee's law with "a measure so enlightened" as the 1973 act, Yoder noted:

"Both measures involve legislative interposition in the realm of biological change; and which will have involved the greater hubris is yet to be seen. Tennessee's ambitions were comparatively modest. It sought only to conceal the disturbing evidence of natural selection from impressionable school children. The Congress of the United States, one is intrigued to learn, intends to stop the nasty business in its tracks."

Having accomplished that, it should be child's play for Congress to make the climate behave. Pick your own meaning of "child's play."

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read George Will's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
I hate being repetitious, but
Mutations are common, you each probably have 10 to 15 mutations, and they are probably all neutral, and if 10,000 of you were completely separated from the rest of the population for a couple thousand generations, it's doubtful you would still be able to breed with the rest of us (certainly at 10,000 gens) even if we still superficially seemed to be the same species, because of accumulation of mutations different from the general population. It just isn't true that mutations are rare.

MikeH
That sounds like a pretty accurate description though I'm sure others will disagree.

I don't think you can do much to raise intellectualism. It's sort of like common sense, ehtier you have it or you don't. There is no amount of education that can increase the desire for knowledge. And as you have seen there is even less you can do to break through the shield of irrational beliefs.

"Pseudo-Intellectuals" cont.
A pseudo-intellectual, therefore, would be someone that feels they have absolute knowledge and is unchanging in their opinions.

This is why the evolution-creation debate is important to me. If someone holds to their beliefs dogmatically despite evidence that contradicts their beliefs, does it end only with evolution? Or does this way of thinking permeate other aspects of their life that are more consequential than the theories concerning the diversity and complexity of life, like child rearing, for example?

So, I ask the other posters here, is this a good definition of pseudo-intellectual, and, if so, how can we raise the level of intellectualism here and elsewhere?

"Pseudo-Intellectuals"
Fallacious Cunctator has thrown this epithet at a number of posters including myself and Christopher Hitchens.

But what is a "pseudo-intellectual?" To know I suppose we should first understand what an intellectual is. Most definitions given are something like "a person who uses his or her intelligence and analytical thinking." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual) But that is a rather vague definition. I tend to like this one better:

"a person who places a high value on or pursues things of interest to the intellect or the more complex forms and fields of knowledge, as aesthetic or philosophical matters, esp. on an abstract and general level" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intellectual)

A person who values knowledge. That, I think, is good definition of the term. But how do we know who truly values knowledge and who gives intellectualism only lip service? While there may be many ways, one way would be to see if the person in question enjoys the furtherance of knowledge in themselves.

To that end, intellectuals relish being shown that they are wrong.

If a belief that they hold is not true or is not justified by current understanding, then they welcome the evidence that shatters their old belief and enlightens their understanding of the world.

Joycey
"You have not given me one example because there are no examples and you know this fact."

I'll ask you again. Will you reject your belief in creationism if I show you an example of speciation?

A Few Questions
Fabius Cunctator
Reply # 255
Date: Feb 9, 2009 - 4:55 PM EST

"Define mathematically what “changes in genetic frequencies” mean. That sounds like double-talk to me."


Fabius Cunctator
Reply # 256
Date: Feb 9, 2009 - 5:02 PM EST

"Evolution Theory: Self Contradictory and False Science-"


Here we have Fallacious Cunctator tacitly admitting that he doesn't know what evolution is in his 4:55 post, and, in the very next post, he feels that he can disprove what he doesn't even understand.

This, to me, is the height of arrogance. FC has no excuse for not understanding evolution. I and many other Townhall posters have presented him with every bit of evidence he has asked for. He has chosen to remain willfully ignorant.

My question is what should we do about this? Should we ignore someone who seems to be so prejudiced that no amount of evidence would enlighten him? Or should we continue to answers his objections in the hope that someone might come to have a better understanding of current scientific knowledge in spite of FC's obfuscations?

And to my creationist brethren, do you feel that FC is a good representative of your side of the debate? Do you think that he exemplifies creationist thought?

Disappointing
I thought it would be about how brain-dead Congress is--in other words, guaranteed survival of the most unfit!

Fallacious Cunctator
"In those “references”, what new species were formed in the laboratory or in a natural environment? What is the name of the old species and what is the name of the new species?"

Evolution deals with more than just speciation. I've already told you what evolution is. (And I believe that I have already given you evidence of speciation.)

All you are doing is showing that you are ignorant of the theory that you reject. But continue your posts and I will continue to combat your ignorance.

Fallacious Cunctator
"Defining "genetic frequency" still does not say anything as to how this term works to prove or is a factor in the evidence that proves Evolution is a valid physical science"

Wow. You ask for answers. Those answers are given. You don't "accept" them. What a surprise.

So you don't embarrass yourself at your "Who's Who" meetings, let me tell you what evolution is.

EVOLUTION IS THE CHANGE IN GENETIC FREQUENCIES IN POPULATIONS OVER TIME.

I'm truly sorry that that doesn't jive with your prejudices, but that genetic frequencies in populations change over time is a FACT. I have given you evidence for that.

Oh, and by the way, I don't claim that "evolution is a valid physical science." Biology is the science of which evolution is a theory.

Fallacious Cunctator
"The study of genetics is not related to evolution"

You are an idiot.

Joycey
Please define "kind" for me.

Evoution
Theory:
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Justin
If you know something is true should you live in such a way as to pretend it is not?

MikeH
Blah Blah Blah

You believe in something that is impossible.

I believe that The Almighty God did the impossible.

You exist. That is a fact. Since you exist you got here somehow. Your existence is impossible.

Yes, there is evidence that God exists.
Jewish history, the Bible and the Incarnation. Fulfilled Prophecy. All complete with eye- witnesses.

The Apostle Paul(who was a great deal smarter than you) thought very little of your theory. He dismissed it in one sentences in A Letter to the Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD through what has been made so that they are without excuse."

Note "clearly seen". At this point there weren't even microscopes. An examination of nature and thought and the use of common sense should lead you to a faith in the existence of God.

MIKEH you are without excuse. The Truth is so obvious you should be able to see it but you
have your eyes closed. The light is on but you are in the dark. OPEN YOUR EYES. Instead you believe in something that cannot possibly happen.

You have not given me one example because there are no examples and you know this fact. Look up "according to their kind" in Genesis.

Tom
The Big Bang is certainly evidence of a currently unexplainable (well not completely explainable) event. Many theists point to that event as one of divine creation. I can see their reasoning but there is no evidence to tie the two together.

Here's evidence of creation.
The Big Bang is "evidence" of creation. It is evidence, maybe, but not proof. I think you're looking for proof. Sorry, you're going to have to look and think deeper for that. Good luck.

Darwin and Intelligent Design
Surprisingly, Darwin acknowledged the strength of the design argument long after Origin was published. In his autobiography, Darwin wrote:

"Another source of conviction in the existence of God, connected with the reason and not with the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting, I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist."
We often rue youthful indescretions.

FC
"I dare you to explain, in your own words, as you said “how and why Evolution explains changes in genetic frequencies”. You must:

1) Define mathematically what “changes in genetic frequencies” mean. That sounds like double-talk to me."

Simple. Mathematically a gene frequency, or allele frequency, is the number of a certain allele in a population divided by the number of organisms in that population. Changes in that number are "changes in genetic frequency"

http://www.biochem.northwestern.edu/holmgren/Glossary/Defin itions/Def-A/allele_frequency.html

Sounds like 5th grade math to me.

"2) Show what physical evidence bears this out. No websites, just give a printed scientific journal and the web site that gives access to this journal if possible."

http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/127/1/229

http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/179/4/2091

In fact, if you truly want an answer to your question, I would get a subscription to the Genetics Society of America.

I'll try again
So here we have another debate on the validity of evolution, creation, or intelligent design.

On MANY occasions I have read posts attacking evolution and pointing out the numerous holes in the theory. What I have not read EVER is a post that offers evidence for the theory of creation. Pointing out a weakspot in one theory does absolutely nothing to strengthen an evidence free belief.

So is there anyone out there that can answer the challenge to provide evidence for creation that is not born of ignorance?

Fallacious Cunctator
"Please do not cite brainwashed websites as support and make false and unscietific conclusions about what Evolution theory does."

The fallacy is:AD HOMINEM ARGUMENT

This occurs when one responds to an argument by appealing to a characteristic of the argument's proponent (or, in this case, source), rather than actually offering up a refutation of the argument or claim.

In this case I'm not even sure what argument FC is addressing, but it seems he has already made up his mind that any website that does not conform to his view must be "brainwashed."

.................
-------If you took the genetic code from a DNA molecule and transferred it to a computer chip it would be so small that it could fit on top pin head.

What is your point..........Mod Mark-----


Except we made the computer chip and encoded it. You would have us believe a cell, that evolved from rock, was lucky enough to go through the correct chemical reactions, despite the second law of thermodynamics and an inhospitable environment, and somehow, amazingly by chance, evolved into a reproducing cell whose DNA had the necessary characteristics to sustain life. It's absolutely preposterous.

Think how the first cell could have randomly evolved into what we see now. An organism would have never survived let alone evolved. And it most certainly wouldn't have evolved in the shapes and variety of species we see now. The organism would have been no more advanced than an amoeba.

Nowhere can we observe a species in the middle of it's transitional stage. There is no fossil record of transitional species. As a matter of fact scientists have found species with no similar ancestral species; “it's as if they just appeared” said one of the scientists.

The only plausible explanation is intelligent design; God. Ultimately science will bring us closer to God and we will have a greater understanding of His work.

SS
There are a lot of scientist that don’t want to say anything because the don’t want the

S.S. scientist after them.

They just focus on their work and get results.

Jocey, peter, et al
"Until God HImself is disproved evolutionary theory is only theory and not fact."

""evolution is a fact" stated by the author couldn't be more wrong. Evolution is a thory..."

Two things. First, let me highlight the logical fallacy being employed here. Its called "Argument from Ignorance." It happens when someone claims something to be true because it has not been proven false.

(1) No one has been able to disprove the existence of God.
Therefore:
(2) God exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/argumentfromignorance.html

Now, to the "evolution is a theory, not a fact" canard. It is both.

Evolution is defined as the change in genetic frequencies in populations over time. That is a well documented fact.

The Theory of Evolution works to explain how and why changes in genetic frequencies in populations occur.

WOW
You scientist are the ones that are

manipulating matter and then adding values to

single celled beings that don’t even match the nature of single celled beings of today.

you would make those Bronze Age witch doctors blush with embarrassment.

Sea Dogs
Pirate Rob is going to have to go back and finish collage.

I smell Noble Peace Prize Gold. ARRRRRRRRRRRRR mates you know how pirates love gold.

Joycey
"No there really isn't any. I do not see you offering any examples."

Let me ask you this. If I provide you with examples, will you then give up your belief in bronze ages myths and embrace current scientific understanding of the diversity of life?


Think?
I watch the history channel and you should tell those scientists about your theory.

Because they think the whole earth was covered in ice at one time and then it was covered with water and then it was a ball of lava and all the land was in one area and on and on and on.

So only scientist can change the make up of the earth without question?

Talk to your own people then get back to me ok.

Justin
You are assuming. The violence caused by a world-wide flood would have leveled and created different geographic features and their heights, for who knows how many years

The Basic Point
Of what I've been saying is that, despite what people in this thread have been arguing, there's just no viable reason to give all the multitude of creation theories an "equal shot" in public schools, especially those that are simply impossible for all of our observational records. This means we'd have to give Aztec theory as much time as those who still think all reality popped into being in 4,250 BC. We simply don't have the time or resources to teach all of it. The Bible's version isn't any more important than the claim that Amataseru dipped a Katana into the ocean and dripped out Japan to warrant a special pairing along with scientific observation.

That's what science class is about, observing the world and trying to come to a conclusion around what is observed. Intelligent design does have a strong claim when it comes to the creation of all time and matter (sorry physicists, you fail here, you've never been able to come up with a remote explanation how all this stuff came to existence from a total nothingness), but when it starts trying to use the divine word of God as written by a cohort of men over a few thousand years, it starts to get really dumb.

Since ID is better left to the time 0 point billions of years ago, it should not be approached until such a time, which is a doctorate level college course. We don't teach string theory to middle schoolers so we don't need to be teaching them ID, they're on the same level. All the other hard line "God dropped us here in loincloths" arguments are too flimsy to be argued in any setting and should be left out until something non-scripture related pops up, especially in our school system.

Mike H
No there really isn't any. I do not see you offering any examples.

At Work
The scientists I work with are smart level headed problem solvers.

So I have to use humor to get them to look at my suggestions.

They tell me stuff I listen.

Pirate Rob
Even with a total melting of all the ice on our planet, that would not generate enough water to cover the planet 30,000 feet deep. Even the most BASIC tennents of the Bible when trying to act as a guide for actual planetary history is unquestionably out of whack with any reality.

The question is amazingly basic to simple concepts of geometry. To fill an area between sea level and Mt. Everest, you'll need to fill a space 30,000 feet high around the entire world. Using the volume of a sphere, 4/3*Pi*r^3 of just the Earth (7,926 miles) and subtracting that with the additional 30,000 feet, you'll find that we need 4.4 billion cubic miles of water in addition to what is already sitting in the oceans and lakes of the world. This is a problem as the Earth only has a total of 280 million cubic miles of water if we melted out all the free standing ice on the planet.

So, given that water tends to expand when frozen at polar cap levels or vaporised, we see that mathematics is showing that the idea that a major global flood will cover all the land is pretty much impossible as we are unable to account for 4.2 billion cubic miles of water. Even at a simple 22 foot depth, assuming all the world was a flat, featureless sphere, we're STILL missing 3 million cubic miles of water. That's a sphere of water with a diameter of 185 miles, which would be visible from orbit. For further reference, Lake Superior, the largest of the Great Lakes, is only 2,900 cubic miles of water and the Caspian Sea, the largest lake on the planet, is 18,800 cubic miles. Where did a lake that's 174 bigger than the Caspian Sea or a chunk of ice the size of Greenland vanish to? Basically, that's a huge freaking number.

You don't need a forest to write Genesis, the basics presented just don't jive with reality.

I like Science
Pirate Rob isn’t talking about religion

I’m not the brightest pirate on the boat that would be Captain Morgan.

Some of You scientist keep reaching for straws then drag the bible into it.

which makes me think some of these theory’s are designed to discrete the Bible.

I’m looking at your theory’s and wondering if some of you scientist aren’t pot smoking libertarians.

A bit more beltway disease
Will's statement that:
"...An American majority resists such an annoying notion, endorsing the proposition that 'God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.' ..."

...sounds as if it's based on the assumption that everyone who professes religious belief in this country must also believe in the above. I think he is flatly wrong here, and I would be curious to know if he based this assertion on a poll or survey or if he simply conflated religious belief and creationism. If I understand the theory correctly, I believe even Intelligent Design isn't based on the assumption of man's creation "within the last 10,000 years."

Justin
Justin I’m sure I could not use the bible to explain science nor would I ever try.

The first book of the bible would deforest the planet if it was written by scientist.

Justin if the top third of the earth was covered with ice and some of that ice melted and

Broke through an ice dam to the hot dry desert areas that water would evaporate into the

air and cause a lot of rain.

Your scientific laws state that matter can change to other properties.

Ice can become a gas or water so that’s not hard for a knuckle dragging pirate to understand.

People like to live near the water because the property values are higher and no one likes

to drag their boats miles to the ocean with out a trailer and a SUV.

So in short that would flood a lot of people and the government isn’t that good at helping

people in flood like conditions.

The ice age is over that ice went somewhere?

Spare me...
...from any religious interpretations of ANYTHING!

Point Proven Pt. 2
Tell me that it makes sense to give that kind of attitude on decision making in the world an "equal shot". If you can demonstrate to me how a 22 foot increase in the water level can cover mountains without quoting Biblical passages that's one thing, but no one has even bothered to try, they know they can't do it.

There's nothing wrong with having integrity or a code to live by, but making up stories behind them is pretty lame, especially when pretexted by a "with us or against us" attitude. There may be a kernel of truth behind religious texts, but it isn't our job to blindly follow despite the gaping flaws, it is our job to figure out what exactly is true about it. The message of Genesis and other Biblical stories are still valid, but we've pretty much shown that all of the hard-line history with specific dates, times and details simply don't hold up to reality. This attitude is the kind of attitude that despots and tyrants love in the population they rule over, nothing spoils a good dictatorship like someone questioning a law.

Point Proven Pt. 1
No one noticed that I supported or denied a specific viewpoint. What I did say is that there are certain behaviors that are dangerous to instil in our youth as it leads to poor behaviors in the future. As Pirate Rob above has explained through his application of Godwin's Law (any discussion on the Internet will inevitably lead to someone referring to the Nazi party), the Nazi party used the very same concepts presented in Biblical passages: the truth of the Nazis was true because they said they were true.

If I can't come to the same conclusion WITHOUT cracking open the Bible and quoting passages, there's room to question. I had this very same argument last week with a pair of hyper fundamentalists (one Baptist, one Mormon just to avoid the "my version is right"). I asked a simple question, how could 22 feet of water (Genesis 7:20) cover mountains and couldn't even get a remotely believable answer. First it was that a cubit was 2,000 feet to cover the fact it would take 30,000 feet of water to submerge Mount Everest (a cubit is 1.5 feet), but then asked why God would ask Noah to make a boat that was 600,000 feet, which is 113 miles, long (300 cubits) and it was quickly shifted into a wild story about God smmashing down mountains real fast and raising them up again after the flood subsided (not even bothering to look for a passage, just making it up on the spot).

Congress' Trump
George - To me, I find this column a little too obtuse to enjoy by either refuting or agreement. However, it's encouraging that even with individuals hating so intensely in that time period, the earth with all its natural inhabitants carried on. God does tarry.

LOL
we are certainly in lala land now reading the above

ah!:"whyGod allowds megadisasters"?
let's see. ripping appart unborn babies as global policies?
erasing even angels and fairies from the kids education also as policies?, not God's stuffs perfect for kids on evil and good tales and stories? but sodomic hipsex on schools?
isn't it anything sexier than a fairy?, why I can't see the fairy as a sex symbol, but inocence and an endless time grace creature?
is it good for kids?
if you don't want a baby, give to adoption, don't ecourage God's armies, they "aren't God"
how do you feel if you are an angel and the people don't even believe you even exist?
would you help humanity?
what if the 2012 "thing" becomes into
a (nother) "lesson from the heavens"?
would you still support the changes the world doesn't need?
would you still supporting your own no drill slavery maker? (easy, instant solution, as any country is trying to drill, the key "magic" word libs fight, worst aprvl % on history became into a social real course, normal with socialist pursuer states very active for decade$ now)

Justin
If you don’t separate the science from your religion you’ll be doing that Nazi leg

Exercise the goose step.

A lot of people are going to get killed because of your false pride and your willingness to

Believe your theroy is superior.

and all the lesser life forms must be done away with to make room for a better world of people

with white lab coats and pencil caddies.

Listen Justin in a world full of people competing for government funding the strong

will try to kill the weak to get at the fat mother idol with the multiple breasts to feed.

Joycey
I can't see god so he does exist is not a scientific argument either.

Joycey
I'm ignorant of the scientific evidence concerning macro-evolution so it doesn't occur is not a scientific argument.

MikeH
I can't see God so He doesn't exist is not a scientific argument.

In "theotherlife" yougotowhatyoubelived
If you think Darwin's theory was enough to explain science of God, well you'll eternaly become into an ape.
But if you at list tryied to conserv not change God's nature on your memory along with the history of God's mankind, repent, tryied to change your selve to a closer path to The Almighty, then, grace and love will follow tyou to fix your mistakes, and become a citicen of the heavens...
What say you?
pd: God's defenseless abortion survivor children, that is a real crime to deny legal rights, while real terrorist planners are treated "specially" (in times of war) and the war on terror supporter faces government scrutiny, seeking for "failures" to be silenced "legally", within family, work, and civilian environment.
Your place in history will come (in fact came with the worst aprvl % on history of congress already), no matter how many you silence or how much money from e-donations you can easily summon by say the things the terrorists love: unilateral disarment of T USA, "talk and change policies with the enemy in times of war", Iraq desperation, economy bubbles out of control (iran, venezuela and rusia worse the crisis by gas prices, and the worst % of aproval comes to the no drill in times of war, worse)
Stephani, YOUR LIBLAND MADE THE GLOBALBUBBLE CRISIS, ACORN STILL ORDERING AUTHORITIES, YOUR TERRORIST OIL COUNTRIES WORSE IT INCLUDING YOUR MASSES.
What part of LIBORG$ create the crisis you don't understand?, how much was the necesary war on Iraq to stop nuclear-Israel and any wipe out Iran, are you waiting for the "3rd Iran nuke (Israel 1st, europe 2nd, USA 3rd, you can e-check this info starting with Iran's own global terror regular threats)

Justin

There are a lot of mythological evolution theory’s is what you mean.

Al Gore uses the same scientific method as the World News Daily

He is the master at filling in the hole with ruble.

Justin
Darwin is the Job Biden of science.

Don’t get me started on the Egyptian evolution theory. Lol

Louis Pasteur dispelled Spontaneous generation until Darwin dusted off the Egyptian

Evolution theory and the debate goes on.

Listen you scientist have got to separate the science from your religion.

Justin
What evidence?

MikeH
No we don't.

re: Mod Mark #190 (ascending order)
"It seems that most of the so called evidence supporting ID is in reality, attempts to disprove evolution."

The evidence supporting ID is in reality attempts to prove ID.

"If I accepted this evidence and claimed that evolution is a hoax, then we would have no valid theory for life on earth."

Set aside your 'scientific' blinders, and give the Genesis account of origins an objective, truly-scientific, fair shake.

"Why would the designer of life on earth need ~2 billion years to design simple multicellular life?"

He didn't "need ~2 billion years."

"This is a switch to another science, physics and the Big Bang. The unique atomic properties of water, which gets in a liquid form is denser than its solid form, was created moments after the Big Bang and has nothing to do with evolution."

Your "switch to another science" is another typical dodge of an ID denier.






Joycey
"Every creature was given at Creation a certain degree of adaptability for survival. Adaptation does not change one type of creature into another. We do not witness this. There is not proof of it."

Yes, we do. Do you know what we actually have never witnessed and have no proof for? Creation.

Don Juan - What is he's right?

There are obvious questions, if one acts on Mr. Watson's directive: "We need to radically and intelligently reduce human populations to fewer than one billion."

* how - gas chambers, cyanide-laced koolaid followed by ovens and/or compost heaps?
* who gets to play god and decide who is disposable?

There is every reason to believe that Mr. Watson, and perhaps you, intend to be serving the koolaid, not consuming it.

Your comment: "consuming raw materials is like consuming capital" is monumentally ignorant. The source of wealth is not raw materials. Wealth is created by purposeful thought. Raw materials are just that; if raw materials equate to capital, Africa would be the wealthiest region on the planet.

Your comment that "given the limits of present technology, a sustainable population level might be as small as one billion." is a subjective assessment - sustainable in some people's minds is a weird combination of nature preserve and museum, with no people.

You say, "There are two solutions to the problem: reducing the population and improving the technology. But come to grips with the problem, we must." There are indeed technological solutions, many of which already exist, but are considered politically incorrect since they do not facilitate the imposition of socialism upon the populace.

You close with, "One cannot argue with Thomas Malthus. If the facts are as they are, what do we do about it as a species? " On the contrary, Malthus is easily argued with -- his assumptions and predictions only apply to static, closed systems - which ignores external inputs (e.g. solar radiation) and innovations that change the interactions (e.g. technology we already have created, space flight, which we are beginning. Take a close look, and you will have to concede that this earth is not a closed system.

v/r,

-- Bud

Creation Should Not be Taught Pt 2
This is the key reason why such a mindset has no place in our public school system. As a proper scientist, I know not to ever hunker down behind my assumptions when presented by an unfillable hole. I have to simply change my assumption. The Intelligent Design crowd does exactly the opposite. It will twist or outright disregard anything that doesn't fit within the presented truth. Scientific behavior has a working assumption and evidence is gathered to support it, but when evidence is gathered that doesn't support it, a good scientists tries to see if they have all the details on the counter evidence or if they actually need to change their assumptions. ID says, "This is the truth and all evidence WILL fit what I think is the truth, end of story." Of course, this same behavior does give the science community a bad name when hacks like Richard Dawkins open their big mouths, Atheism is no more scientifically supportable in its current form than any religious argument.

Basically, fairly teaching religious angles to a science course is not possible due to the sheer numbers of them out there and defeats the very purpose of a science course, to teach children to verify EVERYTHING they're presented with and to never take something as truth, especially when it is simply said to be. ID is better left to a much more advanced level of study and to people who know the basic concepts of science and how those basic concepts don't mix with fundamentalist approaches to religion.

Creation Should Not be Taught
Not for the reason you may be thinking. There are over 1,000 different creation stories using differing methodologies, different timeframes and from different cultures and religions. Due to the sheer number of them, it is impossible to teach them all in any school, even if years of education are dedicated to giving all of the stories and "equal" hearing in school. What makes the Biblical account the true account and not the Popol Vuh account (Mayan creation)? Both are radically different in just about every aspect short of a higher power simply willing us into existence.

The reason Biblical and other creation theories should be left out of the public realm is they teach poor behaviors, not just in science, but in our lives. The ultimate "proof" presented by any creationist is that the method of creation presented by the texts is true because the texts say they are. Imagine if you lived your life this way. Barak Obama won with the same concept, "I'll be a good President because I say I will." Creation theories, like all good religious texts, are presented in a way that has a convenient out no matter what information is presented to the contrary, ultimately falling back on the "it's true because we say it is" argument. It's difficult to counter that one, but it can easily be used by compulsive liars.

to hal donahue in PA
do not assault my statement with your liberal agenda. I'm stating few axioms, but I can go deeper if you like in isn't new age religion, more like old age religion proven by science..why don't you look up the statistical probablilty of a 100 celled organism lining it's dna by a random process that would get it just right. Next you will probably call me a racist as that is what all of you leftist communist do when an argument can't be won. I'm probably a nazi too according to your criteria. educate yourself and then argue. no one said anything about flat earth you moron.

Inventions are key to better lives.
The printing press, paper, cotton gin, the sewing machine, the zipper, the combine, the computer, the telephone. What people have truly changed mankinds lives for the better materially? Inventors and those responsible for getting their products to market. Darwin has added nothing. A child could have come up with his theory and probably did. If God does not exist there is no other explanation for beginnings other than the material. But how does a scientist or anyone disprove God? He cannot simply cry and stomp his feet, "I can't see Him so He doesn't exist." Until God HImself is disproved evolutionary theory is only theory and not fact.

Every creature was given at Creation a certain degree of adaptability for survival. Adaptation does not change one type of creature into another. We do not witness this. There is not proof of it.

Who has given mankind the ability to create to better the world for himself and others? Why is human life most precious? Whose image are we made in? And because of this the world is not a life boat that some must be thrown off of for survival but a cup continually and miraculously overflowing with blessings.

The First thing God did with Adam was put him in the garden with a purpose. That he should maintain it. Not exploit it or leave it alone or worship it but to maintain it, take care of it and use it, to make it useful to himself and others that would follow. If cared for properly it would last and keep producing.

Leave Darwin in the Grave
Darwin is Dead (Leave Him in the Grave)

http://ednews.org/articles/33215/1/DARWIN-IS-DEAD-Leave-Him -in-the-Grave/Page1.html

This article explains why we should resist the overwhelming propaganda being perpetuated by Darwinian disciples.

Please read the entire article...
Personally, I am not a big fan of George Will, however, the comments on this article are really a sad commentary on the reading comprehension level of many of you.

This article is not an apology for evolution. It is a condemnation of Congress for its hypocrisy regarding its position on paying for the teaching of evolution, which contains a plank known as the, "Survival of the fittest," while at the same time, Congress also funds and legislates against activity which is designed to prevent any potential elimination of a weaker species.

In doing so, Congress demonstrates the left-hand doesn't know what the right-hand is doing.

So what is Congress really accomplishing? Nothing. They are, however, running up your tax bill, wasting money, wasting time, and they are totally engaged in a fool's errand all while thinking way too highly of themselves.


peter
"Date: Feb 9, 2009 - 10:12 AM EST
evlution is not a fact!
"evolution is a fact" stated by the author couldn't be more wrong. Evolution is a thory, yet it is accepted as a fact and a new age religion bu the liberals...."

LMAO say scientific theory it is not a theory there is a difference. Stop with the new age religion nonsense. Do you think the earth is still the center of the universe and and flat?

all the rest is gibberish. Compete in the arena if you can...but you know you cannot

evlution is not a fact!
"evolution is a fact" stated by the author couldn't be more wrong. Evolution is a thory, yet it is accepted as a fact and a new age religion bu the liberals. Even the darwinists will tell you that 90% of all species that ever lived became extinct. That does not prove evolution but decay. Second law of thermodynamics, an unaided system will eventualy decay not IMPROVE! that is just one example. OUR DNA is designed to eliminate mutations. There is no such thing as a positive mutation, all negative designed to keep the copy as clean as possible. Adaptation proves that the genetic material is already there, it just pulled out in case of need, no new genetic material is created. Galapagos finches are still finches, just with shorter beaks and can still mate with other finches and have healthy offsprings capablae of reproduction, unlike mules or other hybrids. that is all i can fit here without boring all of you but there is a ton more....Earth 4 bln yrs old? please, the salinity of oceans in nowhere near wher eit would be and there is ofcourse that pesky dilemma of earth volcanic activity....if the was indeed 4 bln yrs old there wouldn't be any volcanism on our planet unless we were a star like our sun..an had a nuclear reactor at our core, but then of course we would be able to detect the radiation..

"Al Gore"
"Al gore got a D+ in natural science"
And remember that he flunked out of theology school.
Now he has put his expertise in science and theology together in a new religion.

Contrary to the popular
opinion among atheistic college professors and scientists, believers in God do not doubt evolutionary changes and improvements in nature. We also note the many evolutionary mutations that occur.

But to compare the minute evolutionary changes to vast systems in nature and man set in place by God is one of the most pathetic crutches invented by man running from a God that doesn't bow down and introduce himself to them, oh, except through is Son, Jesus Christ, who they murdered.

Natural selection & conservatism…

Mr. Will looks at natural selection and sees macro-evolution. Most conservatives look at it and see conservatism.

His argument might have some weight if he could tell us by what mechanism new DNA is constructed when its design is to copy itself and repair copy errors. The other conservatives see natural selection working because of the genetic potential that already exists in the DNA.

Remember Mendel? There is a mechanism to reduce genetic potential, but not increase it. Remember Pasteur. We thought he put biogenesis to death, put paganism has a life of its own even among conservatives.



John
"Date: Feb 9, 2009 - 2:08 AM EST
Darwin
Evolution is popycock! They have no proof whatsoever, because all their so call proofs fail in the face of investigation..."

Oh, taking any medicine? Much of it is because of evolution. You are simply wrong and actually are telling a lie. This is not even open to question. Do you still maintain the earth is flat and the center of the universe? Make another explanation other than magic for how life works

"... Intelligent Design is, in fact, supported by science ..."

simply not true and evolution does not rule out a believe in a god

both george will and darwin !
it takes a village with a large dictionary to understand,and even then it was not worth the time!pick up a bible,and pray as you read you will feel much better!

darwin??? did not have a clue!
you mean the liberal demo-rats who are at the helm of the titanic,these darwin new age dudes,are running in to icebergs and they think its funny!

Al Gore
Al Gore knows nothing about the weather or the path the Earth orbits around the sun.

The tilt of the Earth and how that affects the amount of the suns energy the earth absorbs.

Al gore got a D+ in natural science.

You let a politician into your science circle

and he went right for the gold and all the

fame hogged the cameras and no one knows

anything about what the real scientist did.

Darwin
I use science all day at work that’s not my point.

The average 3.0 GPA high school senior knows more about evolution then Darwin did.

Lincoln Vs. Darwin
A monster and a great man share a birthday? I have to question that. Darwin was hardly a great man, but certainly no monster. Lincoln was, by any objective test, a terrrible person and could be defined as a monster. Darwin was an intellectual vacuum, but he didn't cause the death of another human being. Lincoln, conversely, was responsible for the death of 600,000 of his own constituents; the rape of our legal system; and the destruction of more American property than any foreigh invader in history.

If there was a monster born in February, it had to have been "Honest" Abe Lincoln.

Darwin
Evolution is popycock! They have no proof whatsoever, because all their so call proofs fail in the face of investigation. Intelligent Design is, in fact, supported by science and of course is the whole premise of the Holy Bible. Atheists have tried to debunk it and have gotten saved in the process.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God...
Sign Watcher, La Porte, Texas.

Funny?
I don’t have the brain power to even begin to explain Gods existence.

All I know is that the cutting edge science in Darwin’s day was measuring the bumps on

Peoples heads to determine what they are or will be.

Kind of like palm reading.

Go back to Darwin’s day and see what science was thinking about.

Updating One’s Conception of God
Assume for the sake of argument the best current scientific evidence suggests that the universe probably came into existence in a massive explosion or expansion about 13.8 billion years ago, our solar system including the earth was formed about 4.5 billion years ago, the first forms of life appeared on the earth about 3.5 billion years ago, the first mammals appeared about 265 million years ago, the first primates about 60 million years ago, the earliest member of the genus Homo appeared about 2 million years ago, and the first members of our species, Homo sapiens, appeared about 200,000 years ago.
Also assume for the sake of argument that all that happened during the past 13.8 billion years occurred through natural processes that human brains are beginning to understand through the study of physics, mathematics, chemistry, biology, genetics, paleontology, anthropology, cosmology etc.
If these 2 assumptions are true, does it necessarily follow that a “Higher Power” or “Supreme Being”, or “God” cannot possibly exist? Of course not. Whether God exists or doesn’t exist is a totally separate question. But if these 2 assumptions are true, it does suggest that some conceptions of God that may have been previously acceptable but which conflict with the unfolding evidence of science need to be significantly updated. It isn’t God that needs changing; just some outdated conceptions of God that seem to linger in some human brains.

Go for the Gold
The place I work at has a suggestion box and Pirate Rob keeps it full of ideas because
if you’re not in you can’t win.

If I was a scientist I would consider the Noble Peace Prize my personal suggestion box.

If Yasser Arafat can submit a model for peace and win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Anyone can win.

Yasser Arafat’s model for peace is still being used by Hamas by the way.

Darwin?
Darwin didn’t even know what was inside a single cell.

Back in Darwin’s day a single cell was a blurring blob in the micro scopes they had.

Darwin went on vacation to some islands in the pacific and picked up a star fish

And looked at his hand and noticed both had five appendages and concluded all life must

Of evolved from the sea.

What The?
A butterfly has three stages form a pod egg thing to a caterpillar then a butter fly.

It morphs into a butterfly in one year.

Your single celled god has to in theory take billions of years to become human.

Will all be dead by then?

Anyway now you’re moving away from the single cell god worship to stem cell research.

Cheating.

You’re evolving from worshipping a single cell being to becoming an intelligent designer.

You want to be a god?

No IQ in that cell
Listen you slacking non producing single celled being worshippers.

All the other sciences are pulling their weight in this country.

The other sciences have helped produce billons of things in the last 100 years

While you single celled worshippers have yet to come up ONE single cell that has

Spontaneously generated with no help from other living matter and has the intelligence to

Pass on to it’s off spring the ability to survive the battle of the fittest.

Listen I don’t want to sound like a bigot but your single celled god is not that smart.

How can a single celled being even conceive of teeth and claws when everyone knows

that a single celled being has no foreign policy experience.

Mod Mark
"Where does evolution say that?"

Uh...how did one celled organisms eventually become people if they did not evolve into more complex beings? Are you now saying that humans are not the pinnacle of evolution?

"The ability of a species to adapt to the environment does not infer complexity."

Now you are equating adaptation with evolution. Everyone believes in minor changes that promote adaptation, even creationists. :)

Got to go, it's getting late. Homeschool in the morning.

Mod Mark
"If I accepted this evidence and claimed that evolution is a hoax, then we would have no valid theory for life on earth."

Well, at least you're honest about why you are holding on to your dogma.

"Well there the problem, the so called evidence support ID. It seems that most of the so called evidence supporting ID is in reality, attempts to disprove evolution."

But a real scientific theory should be open to challenge. The only reason this Darwinian fantasy has lasted so long is that the proponents won't allow any questioning of it.

Mod Mark
In your example, from 1905 no less, the researcher found another variety (or species, if you will) of primrose. So? That's a horizontal change if anything. Your theory purports that organisms become more complex as they evolve. How is O. gigas more complex than O. lamarckiana?

Mr. Will
You cannot stand above every issue and not take a side. Clearly everyone cannot be right at the same time. To point out both sides of an argument and not try to wrestle with the ideas yourself accomplishes nothing. And it isn't very honest. Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word? It either is or it isn't. You must take a side.

Mutations.
Mutations are common. Most are neutral, although they are more likely to be harmful than beneficial. The average human carries about a dozen point mutations that differentiate them from either of their parents.

Face the Facts
The jig is up. Evolution is a zillion times more impossible than the Blue Fairy, the Witch of the North, Aladdin's genies, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, the Headless Horseman, and the mathematical definition of impossible all put together. (Joseph Mastropaolo)

The Life Science Prize is proof positive that evolutionists are all hot air.

I suggest open-minded readers take a look at the LSP website (http://www.lifescienceprize.org/) and its links and decide for themselves.

Natural selection is the lie of the ages
The complexity of even the simplest organism requiring all systems to be operative at one time, leaves out any possibility that a gradual change and adding this or that could have been how the specie came into being. Where does emotion, instinct, feelings, human intellect cognitive come from as a part of the natural selection process? One can attempt to do away with rational thought but while doing so only demonstrates what a fool he is.

PK
As always, there are two sides of a story. The ID response to the Dover trial:

http://www.discovery.org/a/2879

D - You Have the Wrong Apollo
I never said that McCain would win and devoutly wished for him to be demolished as he was.

Nor did I support Obama whose fascist philosophy is a brazen attack on individualism and the free market. I further despised McCain for being "Obama Lite".

TNX, Apollo, for Dover link...

Big mistake in the Dover trial was that defense did not take plaintiffs ice fishing.


To All Dover Doters

Everywhere in the universe the finger of time points downward in devolution. Evolution’s fictionalized finger points upward as it and its finger are devolving. But evolution is not fiction like Mother Goose where the cow jumps over the moon. A cow can jump a low fence so Mother Goose is straight forward fantasy that children enjoy. Inverted Mother Goose would be the moon jumping over the cow. That kind of inverted fantasy is what evolution is, the exact opposite of reality, an example of the medical dictionary definition of psychosis, and it twists the psyches of our youth. (Joseph Mastropaolo http://www.josephmastropaolo.com/)

Robert Feb 8, 2009 - 9:33 PM EST
Not only did evolution survive attacks by Christian religious fanatics but from Communist fanatics as well.

The Communists hated Darwin. They wanted to believe that the "New Socialist Man", a man free of selfish individual desires and willing to altruistically dedicate himself to the proletariat, could be produced by changing the ownership of the means of production.

They desperately wanted a way for acquired characteristics to be inherited. Darwin's theory stood in their way, so as they did with all intellectual opponents, they mercilessly attacked him as a tool of the capitalists. They brutalized Herbert Spencer as well for his views on evolution accusing them both of advocating a kind of economic jungle where predation is the only means of survival.

The theory of evolution has survived the onslaught of both supernatural and secular faiths. That is quite a testament to the robustness of the theory and the genius of its creators.

Need link to Dover...
Hal Donahue,
No, I have not. This is the first I've heard of Dover, but am willing to consider such if you provide a link to same... unlike Darwin devotees who refuse to step out of their prejudicial comfort zones.

Hal Donahue Feb 8, 2009 - 8:50 PM EST
It seems that after the discovery phase of the trial (no pun intended) a lot of people tried to distance themselves from the Dover trial.

During this phase the Discovery Institute provided evidence that it had edited a creationist text to make it appear to have a non-religious intellectual basis. It looked like "search and replace" was used to substitute "intelligent design" for "creationism".

This was when Santorum flip-flopped and Meyer and Dembski withdrew.

If it wasn't the revelation of the text substitutions that caused Santorum to flip-flop then to say the least the timing is suspicious.

Evolution
I never cease to wonder at the widespread antipathy toward evolution. Never in the history of science has a theory fit in so well with the related natural sciences. It has survived 150 years of attacks from religious fanatics and the pseudo-science of creationism. It survives because it WORKS. Its effects are observable for those willing to look. As a geologist, I have to believe that life, without an innate ability to evolve, would have survived the several extinction events of these past 2,800 million years.

Dear Mr. Will:
I wonder if you have ever studied II Peter 3:3-7, especially verses 4-6.

Surely you will agree that II Peter was written nearly 2,000 years ago.

If you study those verses, you discover the passage is describing the doctrine of "uniformitarianism," (or "gradualism")a foundational doctrine of the theory of evolution. Thus, it seems, the theory of evolution was prophecied in the New Testament more than 1,700 years before Darwin wrote, "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life." (Sorry - no access to italics for the title.)

Believe and "preach" what you will, you will have to answer to God some day. You might want to research the passages in the Bible listed in the concordance under "unbeliever" and study the writings of those you no doubt deem to be "ignorant" because they do not agree with either Darwin or you. You would be shocked to learn that they are no "dummies." In fact, evolutionists prefer debating subscribers to "intelligent design" who try to "go it alone" rather than "Creationists" who have scripture in black and white to back up what they are saying.

What size is your hat?
Evolutionists have no evidence, not Star Wars, not swords, not pitchforks, not pointed shoes, nothing. When they wisely default on the Life Science Challenge it proves they are all bluff and no science, or as they say in the Southwest, all hat and no ranch. Now, you say you have a jumping frog that can beat our jumping frog but you refuse to put you money where your mouth is. Or you say you have a runner who can beat our runner or a jumper who can jump higher than our jumper. Well, let's put them on a level playing field and see. The proof is in the results of the contest. The contest settles the issue with finality. Hot air contests never end. The Super Bowl and the World Series are not decided with hot air on web sites. If you are so sure of your position you would debate. (Joseph Mastropaolo)

PK
did you read Dover?

No trick...
No trick, Hal Donahue... simply fact.

Ice fishing, anyone?

Insectman
Dover did settle it. Why didn't you send the 10K?

Insectman
"Date: Feb 8, 2009 - 8:58 PM EST
Cluck cluck
All of you Dover devotees should get Judge Jones to join you and go for the $10K Life Science Prize.,,,"

Are you really this stupid? LMAO Well I guess so,,,, LOL

PK
"PK Location: CT
Reply # 162
Date: Feb 8, 2009 - 8:57 PM EST
..."

You didn't read Dover did you? For your next trick want to explain why the earth is not the center of the universe?

Cluck cluck
All of you Dover devotees should get Judge Jones to join you and go for the $10K Life Science Prize.

“Evolutionists have no evidence, not Star Wars, not swords, not pitchforks, not pointed shoes, nothing. When they wisely default on the Life Science Challenge it proves they are all bluff and no science, or as they say in the Southwest, all hat and no ranch. Now, you say you have a jumping frog that can beat our jumping frog but you refuse to put you money where your mouth is. Or you say you have a runner who can beat our runner or a jumper who can jump higher than our jumper. Well, let's put them on a level playing field and see. The proof is in the results of the contest. The contest settles the issue with finality. Hot air contests never end. The Super Bowl and the World Series are not decided with hot air on web sites. If you are so sure of your position you would debate.” (Dr. Joseph Mastropaolo)

There are enough of true-believers listed at http://www.lifescienceprize.org/ to raise the ten grand needed to undergo the mini-trial referred to as the “Life Science Prize”. Not only could you take Dr. Mastropaolo’s money, but you could shut my mouth.

The only problem is, the LSP would be based on observable objective SCIENTIFIC evidence, not Never Never Land “just-so” stories.

Evolutionists bragged, got “called out” on their bragging, and lost by default. Even six-year-olds know what to call something that struts around clucking.

Examining Intelligent Design

As is true of the scientific method, intelligent design is also largely based upon the objective observation of patterns, structures, compositions and correlations. In its observing the myriad intricacies of our physical surroundings, intelligent design, however, does not ignore de facto evidence for design. The religious component comes into play only after the evidence for a coherent, intelligent design is acknowledged.

Just as it would be inappropriate to insist that New York's Brooklyn Bridge spontaneously appeared and evolved over the East River with no consideration given to the planning, engineering, design, fabrication and construction elements that brought it into being, intelligent design recognizes the micro/macro design-factors (fingerprints, if you will) in the complexities of the physical realm.

Once the evidence for a coherent intelligent design is acknowledged, it may then be argued that the faith implications of this conclusion belong to studies outside the science classroom where people are then free to attribute physical origins to the designer (or lack thereof) of his own choosing.

An evolutionary conundrum for me involves an important characteristic of water, specifically, the twist ("points of inflection" in mathematical terms) in water's specific gravity vs. temperature curve. As a result of this bend in water's specific gravity curve, water at 39 degrees is heavier than water at 32 degrees. This is why freezing of ponds and lakes occurs from the top down, as the lighter, colder water floats on the surface, and the heavier, warmer water sinks to the bottom. It is this mechanism that keeps bodies of water from freezing solid, to the great relief of the resident fish population.

It takes an enormous stretch of the imagination to relegate this unique design of water to chance.

Apollo
"Date: Feb 8, 2009 - 8:40 PM EST..."

Let us not forget failed senator santorum and his heroics LMAO

Professor X
"Date: Feb 8, 2009 - 7:42 PM EST
ATHEISM & DARWINISM both in RUINS ..."

Read Dover and be quiet. Your fairy tale is over

rdk
"Date: Feb 8, 2009 - 6:58 PM EST
Hal Don
"Southerners, a fractious tribe, would not have played nicely together in the Confederacy for very long."

ROTFLMAO
We have enough education among the fracteous tribes to stay out of Pennsylvania..."

Actually not true you tried it once at a place called Gettysburg

"...Lets see here; Texas is about the ninth largest economy in the world. And somehow the rest of us manage to live without artificially inflated prices that go for welath among the uninitiated."

Hmmm well "uninitiated" you do live in GA I believe... LMAO

Afraid to Debate?
The Dover trial gave the advocates of "intelligent design" and creationism their chance to fight it out in public and lay waste to the supposed pseudo science of evolution.

The mighty champions of ID, Steven Meyer and William Dembski, ran away like scared little girls refusing even to be deposed after initially submitting papers to the court. Meyer of the Discovery institute ran so fast that he may have disproved Einstein's contention that nothing can travel faster than light.

It was good that he did run because Michael Behe didn't (to his credit) and he was ripped to pieces on cross examination. Reading the transcript I actually found myself feeling sorry to see a man so totally humiliated in public.

Anyone who wants to can read the transcripts of the trial and see just how pitiful the arguments for ID are.

http://ncseweb.org/creationism/legal/kitzmiller-trial-trans cripts

There may be other websites with the transcripts as well.


Does George have the Will?
Evolutionists, like George Will, are bluffing when they say their beliefs are scientific. Be sure to look at the list of evolutionists who refuse the debate challenge from Dr. Joseph Mastropaolo. See the list at http://www.lifescienceprize.org/.

George Will is #88.

Evolution devotees
Evolution certainly hasn't done anything to increase mankind's propensity or capability for virtuous behavior. This is the real test of validity.
The theory of evolution does nothing but grant crippled minds added license to sin more craftily.
Science, adoringly referenced by many respondents here is no more than a grain of sand under the Almighty's toenail.
It's not out of any special love for the human race or passion to get at the truth that evolution is advanced.. . it's just the thrill of them toppling the giant, the reigning champion. It's no different than the cocky upstart wanting to triumph over the seasoned veteran.
As far as bringing anything more virtuous.. . that isn't the point. It's more to experiment.. . and co-incidentally the resemblance is just like adolescents experimentiing with sex, with the results just as embarrassing.

ATHEISM & DARWINISM both in RUINS

Again,

Irreducible Complexity is just one of many examples for how unrealistic and dishonest Darwinism really is. The same biochemical limitations in one organism may be advantageous within a genetically different organism that appears morphologically similar. These scientist use this slight of hand technique to deceive a gullible self-absorbed public as they
merely cherry pick those organisms that appear similar even through they have NO biochemical relationship with one another.

Natural selection does not produce new genes; it only selects from pre-existing ones. They claim that mutations from radiation not only contributed to the development of life (in all its harmony within the complexity) but when they say “natural selection” they expect the listener to believe that small variations are the missing links to future life forms with completely different structures. But if one asks for the evidence of mutational advance were by one life-form develops benefical functional structures as a result of reproduction or mutations,

1. Many times they want to change the subject;

2. They’ll just say that it is happening more often but they never show evidence for it;

3. They try to backup and try to disown irreducible complexity or say that natural selection has nothing to with the complexity of life, as a result they invalidate Darwinism themselves;

4. They submit an antiquated and outdated link from the talkorigins website about speciation that mostly deals with plants and three unrelated fruit fly examples that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Mutational ADVANCE.

5. Others just rehearse arrogantly how unreligious they are and commence firing “random” obscenities at all those who “dare defy the great prophet Charles Darwin," founder of the RELIGION of Darwinism, venerated by Atheists and the Secular Humanists around the world.

The point is that they themselves cannot demonstrate it.

http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com

Oops
That should have read Master of Science degree.

...............
Dr. Douglas, no one disputes micro evolution, the problem is with the idea that we all came from pond scum. Although the existence of liberals does give some validity to that theory. To whatever extent evolution has occurred the point is that it has done so via an ultimate architect and engineer: God.
The odds would be better for you to win the lottery every year fort the rest of your life than for a cell to randomly develop, in an inhospitable climate for such a theoretical chemical composition, from an inanimate object.

Tell me, if we all came from bacteria why the need for all the varying species? Why would we evolve to compose symphonies and build airplanes when the primitive organisms main objective would be to reproduce, eat. If chance is the argument we would have never moved past amoeba.

DARWINISM & ATHEISM both in RUINS

Irreducible Complexity is just one of many examples for how unrealistic and dishonest Darwinism really is. The same biochemical limitations in one organism may be advantageous within a genetically different organism that appears morphologically similar. These scientist use this slight of hand technique to deceive a gullible self-absorbed public as they merely cherry pick those organisms that appear similar even through they have NO biochemical relationship with one another.

Natural selection does not produce new genes; it only selects from pre-existing ones. They claim that mutations from radiation not only contributed to the development of life (in all its harmony within the complexity) but when they say “natural selection” they expect the listener to believe that small variations are the missing links to future life forms with
completely different structures. But if one asks for the evidence of mutational advance were by which one life form develops into a different structure from reproduction or mutations,

1. Many times they want to change the subject;

2. They’ll just say that it is happening more often but they never show evidence for it;

3. They try to backup and try to disown irreducible complexity or say that natural selection has nothing to with the complexity of life, as a result they invalidate Darwinism themselves;

4. They submit an antiquated and outdated link from the talkorigins website about speciation that mostly deals with plants and three unrelated fruit fly examples that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Mutational ADVANCE.

5. Others just rehearse arrogantly how unreligious they are and commence firing "random" obscenities at all those who "dare defy the great prophet Charles Darwin," founder of the RELIGION of Darwinism, venerated by Atheists and the Secular Humanists around the world.

The point is that they themselves cannot demonstrate it.

http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com

Dr. Douglas @ 7:01 pm
Nothing could be further from the truth. I have a Master's Degree in Science from an Ivy League School. Over 700 scientists have signed the Scientific Dissent from Darwin statement since it originated in 2001. Darwinism is a religion that requires more faith than Christianity. Your "evidence" is mostly speculation and wishful thinking.

I would recommend reading Michael Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" and Philip Johnson's "Darwin on Trial."

Andrea
You ask "how does that prove your theory"? I can't really say because there's not enough in the quote you gave for me to speculate. Usually, theories as big as evolution cannot be proven "as a whole", but must be broken down into smaller theories (hypotheses) that can actually be tested. For evolution, one of the obvious smaller theories would be that selective pressures (from different environments) select different species. Maybe this is all your quote proves - though I suspect that the emphasis on chromosomes in your quote means that it proves something a bit more profound.

One of the less well understood parts of evolutionary theory concerns how different species evolved. One popular model is that different species arose from "geographical isolation". Say you had one species of plant living in one valley in the smokies. Then the seeds were distributed one time (say due to a huge wind storm) and produced plants in the next valley over. Now we have two geographically isolated populations of plants, both of the same species. Assuming that the two valleys had different climates, soil, etc,, those two different environments could give rise to different plant species (plants that "fit" the climate of the valley would produce more offspring and thus survive). There's all kinds of evidence for speciation of both plants and animals all over the world as a result of this kind of geographical isolation. Doesn't explain everything, but removes a large part of the mystery..

Thank you Bandu
G. Will in this column sits like a doddering near-sighted intellectual has-been. It's amazing to see the faith "intellectuals" place in theories and then assert it as fact. Boy George, you really know how to drive home a non-point. By trying to say something profound you have said "absolutely nothing".
The God of Abraham sure owes people like you a debt of gratitude.

George Will the has-been writer
What a twisted, painful, excruciatingly convoluted way of saying absolutely nothing.

anti-intellectualism
There's a surprising amount of anti-evolutionary comments on this thread. I'm sure someone already said it, but 99.99% of the existing scientific evidence supports darwinian evolution. Given this kind of evidence, one would have to be extremely intellectually dishonest to reject it.

But more generally, please consider this: If you reject evolution, you are also rejecting many sub-fields of biology (botany,immunology, physiology, etc). because these fields are based on an solid evolutionary framework. If you believe in "young earth" creationism, then you are also rejecting all of the physical sciences, such as physics, astronomy, cosmology, geology and so on which are based on a 13 billion year history of the universe.

Similarly, you are rejecting a range of other sciences, such as psychology and anthropology, which have made much progress by incorporating evolutionary concepts.

So understand that in rejecting evolution you are also rejecting virtually all modern science. This is an extremely anti-intellectual position to take.

Hal Don
"Southerners, a fractious tribe, would not have played nicely together in the Confederacy for very long."

ROTFLMAO
We have enough education among the fracteous tribes to stay out of Pennsylvania.

Lets see here; Texas is about the ninth largest economy in the world. And somehow the rest of us manage to live without artificially inflated prices that go for welath among the uninitiated.

Dr. Douglas
Perhaps hybridizing is not the proper term. But, the point was this man discovered a different variety of primrose. So what, how does that prove evolution? It's still a primrose. Still a flower. This example proves nothing about your theory.

...............
Mod Mark, the point is that this chain link of genetic code needs to work in a proper sequence for there to be life. Imagine billions of molecular machines all performing specific tasks to give a cell life. If you have a breakdown along any of the points that amount to a stack of paper 625 ft tall, completely filled with code, you will not have life. DNA contains all the information about an individual; hair color, eye color, height, etc. It's a blueprint of that person. Where did the first DNA molecules get the code from?

Andrea

As a gardner, you might want to brush up a bit on your botany (and biology). I don't know how in the world you get from that 1905 finding to hybridizing. Of course a gardener can hybridize within a species (as can nature), but hybridizing across two genuses is much more difficult. Sorry, I just don't know what you are talking about.

If you look at the history of various plant species (say the 800+ species within the genus rhododendron) there is enormous evidence for evolution. Not only is the resulting speciation obvious, but in many cases the "in-between" species are obvious. In addition, in many cases the evolutionary selective pressures (topology, changes in climate across time, etc.) that selected for the existing species are understood.

How Congress Trumps Darwin
Liked C.H's idea that man's concern for the preservation and care of lower species was an indication of his being made in the image of God the creator. The rub comes when the sub-species start to destroy the the higher order,or degrade their ability to thrive.The same goes for those who destroy others for false ideologies,false religiousities,or fame and fortune etc. This is where man made in the image of God needs the real God to make the discernment of who the real ememy is.

Mod Mark @ 5:02 pm
"While studying the genetics of the evening primrose, Oenothera lamarckiana, de Vries (1905) found an unusual variant among his plants. O. lamarckiana has a chromosome number of 2N = 14. The variant had a chromosome number of 2N = 28. He found that he was unable to breed this variant with O. lamarckiana. He named this new species O. gigas."

We gardeners call that hybridizing. When that primrose turns into a fish, get back to us.

Origin of Energy the real question

Most accept the singularity of the 'Big Bang'.

The energy, space, materials, motion and time required to 'Bang' the bang are all conveniently ignored.

What caused the origin of energy?

"Evolution is a fact"
Still believing that fairy tale, Mr. Will? How quaint.

Science involves observation, does it not? Who has observed macro-evolution? Where is your evidence? Piltdown Man? The peppered moth? Galapogos finches? Haeckel's embryo drawings?

Where are the transitional forms? Why does the fossil record disprove your fantasy?

And you call us dogmatists!

The Missing Link has been Found

What separates animals and sub-humans from humans?

Humans have rational faculty, reason and choice, or mind and morality.

We now have a group of humans who are the missing link.

These sub-human say that they are unable to make choices and or decisions because of chemical predestination and genetics will not allow them too.

This is a doctrine of animal husbandry that is appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of animals, but not between animals and men.

These humans believe their ability to choose, their convictions, values and character are determined before they are born, by physical forces beyond their control.

This is nothing more than an ignorant version of the doctrine of innate ideas - or of inherited knowledge or lack of knowledge - which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science.

Congress Trumps Darwin, Fact not Theory
"Still, evolution is a fact and its mechanism is natural selection:"

Once more rhetoric makes science. It must be true, George Will said so.

And all This time I thought it was a theory. It is good to know that a long standing theory becomes scientific fact when a columnist says so.

Now I know where ALGORE get's his science facts from.

I guess we have come full circle.

Go figure.

Fred

A STEALTHY ROUTE TO D.C. STATEHOOD
from: Mwalsh5647@aol.com

Re your D.C. column see my blog 'One Washington State Is Enough" POSTED TODAY.

Mod Mark
I suppose Pantheism is one word for it. But this God (I.e., Pure Consciousness) is not abstract. It's not conceptual. It's Real. This is what's so important: to distinguish between what is Real and what is conceptual.

What is Real is what's going on in This Moment prior to drawing conceptual boundaries and dividing this from that, here from there, then from now, etc.

What is conceptual is everything we conceive of.

So God (i.e., Pure Consciousness) is Real. Our thoughts are conceptual.

This is a critical distinction to make. Ignorance of this distinction is the source of all human suffering (as distinct from pain) and strife.

Fabius Cintator
"Many Southerners kept the slaves at great cost because it would have been inhumane to a free people who would not have been able to support themselves."

So the plantation owners lounging on their verandas drinking mint juleps were the true victims of slavery?

I'll cut Georg Will a break on this one-

If I'd lived in Washington D.C. as long as George Will has, I might believe in evolution, too.

Darwinism
Please say it ain't true. Someone as brilliant as George Will supports Darwinism with such an obviously shallow speculation equivalent to the mental power of spotting the face of Sitting Bull in a rock formation.

The Darwinian premise of the origin of species from a single cell is a theory supported by not one skintilla of evidence, not bio-chemistry, not paleantology, not astronomy, not physics, etc.Nothing
People like George Wills who cite natural selection as established fact prove their complete lack of knowledge. What they mean is change thru adaptation but change per speciation is a Darwinian creation myth, and someone as smart as George Wills should know that.

...............
If you took the genetic code from a DNA molecule and transferred it to a regular sized piece of paper the stack would be 6 feet tall [or 14 copies of War & Peace]. That code must be perfect for there to be life. The genetic DNA code in each cell, which contains about 3 billion DNA base pairs, would be the the equivalent of a stack of papers 625 feet tall. The idea that a single cell just evolved from inanimate objects, evolving to the point of being a functioning cell all through nothing but random chance, which happens to be mathematically impossible, is preposterous.

Hey - I THINK I GET IT !

There is a theory in the evolution of man that the Neanderthal man branched off before Homo Sabiens developed and were an isolated group for many years. That explains the liberal's and congress's lineage. The Neanderthals were a very agressive and barbaric sub-species marked by a lack of restraint. Who else could they be?


Myths
Darwinian evolution is a scientific myth. Lincoln as a great American president is a historical myth. Both belong in the pantheon of frauds.

poorgrandchildren.com
PGCC said:

Survival of the fittest

I believe it was Darwin who never said, "Government schools are not the fittest and need the protection of a monopoly arrangement in order to survive."

Could be that Darwin believed it though. I think that he home schooled his children (he, his wife and private tutors).

Darwin's personal life was exemplary. A good husband, a loving father and loyal to his friends.

When his cousin, Francis Galton, concluded that intelligence was in large part hereditary it was Darwin who insisted that this discovery not be used to control who married whom. He considered such choices to be rightfully within the scope of the individual, not the government.

Perhaps we should forgive the religious zealots who assault Darwin's character because "...they know not what they do".

Nah, I leave that kind of forgiveness to Christ. For my part these zealots should never be forgiven for harming the reputation of a remarkably brilliant, good and decent man.

Conflict in World Views
Evolution, Intelligent Design, Creation - What's the truth? It's amazing how we talk at each other without really hearing each other. Those who interpret the Bible as saying that God created the world in 7 24 hour days have plenty of evidence to back up their view. Intelligent Design proponents have plenty of evidence to back up their view. Proponents of evolution have plenty of evidence to back up their view.

When I look at sites like http://www.talkorigins.org (thanks Mod Mark) I don't find anything to make me change my mind. And it's not because I'm against thinking or against examining the evidence.

Before I became one, I thought Christians were ignorant and non-thinking. It's like I told God when He encountered me in my own Damascus road experience - if you expect me to give up thinking, you have the wrong person.

It reminds me of what Thomas Kuhn wrote in The Structure of Scientific Revolution about scientific paradigms.

The paradigm, in Kuhn's view, is not simply the current theory, but the entire worldview in which it exists, and all of the implications which come with it. There are anomalies for all paradigms, Kuhn maintained, that are brushed away as acceptable levels of error, or simply ignored and not dealt with.

Like I said before, I personally have no problem with an old earth. I have no problem seeing process in God's action of creation. The bible makes it clear that there was process. But I do have a problem in any world view and any theory based on that world view that replaces God with 'Natural Selection'. In other words, because of my own Damascus road experience, for me 'In the beginning God...".

For all three positions, it's not 'scientific' evidence - it's faith based upon a particular World View. And then evidence presented and filtered to support that world view.


DARWIN's THEORIES AND GOD
Darwin's theories on evolution were not to prove or disprove the existence of a God.

In fact, in all of his writings he never stated there was no God. Once a Dutch writer asked Charles Darwin's views on the grounds for belief in God. He replied that "the imposibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God.

He went on to add, "the minds till craves to know whence it came and how it arose. I can not overlook the difficulty from the immense amount of suffering through the world...The safest conclusion seems to me that the whole subject is beyond the scope of man's intellect; but man can do his duty."

Quote is from a biography on Darwin by Randal Keynes, the great-great-granson of Darwin, written in 2001.



...............
Another anti-intellectual

Like Algore, George Will proclaims the issue of Darwin's theory is settled by stating 'evolution is a fact'; no more debate needed. Darwin never addressed origins of life and he himself stated that there should be an abundant fossil record of transitional species validating his theories. He stated if these transitional species were not found then his theory would be wrong. Tell me George, how many of these transitional species have been found?

Theories of primordial soups are non starters since oxygen would have destroyed the forming chemical compounds. Anti-intellectuals will adopt any theory but the obvious. Anthony Flew, a world renowned atheist and philosopher, came to the conclusion after years of study and technological advancements, which allowed scientists to “peel back the onion” further, that there must be some intelligent design at work.

“On the one hand, says Flew, naturalistic efforts have failed to provide ‘a plausible conjecture as to how any of these complex molecules might have evolved from simple entities’,and ‘It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism.’On the other hand: ‘The enormous complexity by which the results were achieved look to me like the work of intelligence.’As Jonathan Witt comments:

The amazing complexity of even the simplest cell; the information-bearing properties of DNA; the exquisite fine-tuning of the laws and constants of physics that make organic life possible. . . these signs of intelligence do not compel our belief in a God who thundered from Mount Sinai, lay in a manger or hung from a cross. But the evidence does have metaphysical implications, drawing us to a still place of wonder where such notions can be reasonably entertained.”

http://www.arn.org/docs/williams/pw_antonyflew.htm

Harold
Neither statement was intended to be sarcastic. The origin of stuff or a designer is something that is beyond the capacity of my brain. Darwinists could say that the stuff did not need an origin any more than the designer did, and neither of those positions can penetrate my skull. Infinity is a very long time.

poorgrandchildren.com
Did you know that Abraham Lincoln, a Republican, was the first President to impose a national income tax?

PSF
I Find You Remarkably, fascinating..In a Bird ..snake sort of way..
You Being the Snake....

Lincoln's accident
Lincoln's main achievement was an accident. To help the Union in the War of Secession, he issued a statement purporting to free some of the slaves--only those in the areas which has seceded. This edict was resisted at the time, but it eventually led to freeing all the slaves.

Incidentally, a civil war is a fight between two or more factions for control of one government. That is not what happened in 1861.

PoorGrandchildren
I assume from the tone of your first question that you are being sarcastic but if you aren't here is the answer to the first.

I spent the 1st 40 years of my life believing in evolution---UNTIL I startded studying the lack of TRUE science behind the theory.

Darwin was a good "birdwatcher" or maybe even "croc hunter" but a *is poor excuse for a scientist as are those who have followed his errors.

To answer your Q #2.

If you are a fish in a tank you are dependent upon [greatly] the person who feeds you, changes the water, keeps the light on, etc.

But, that person [maybe my 24 year old daughter, in which case you are in big trouble]who is connected to you nevertheless has an independent existence. Even tho sometimes she is able to interpose herself into your tank to clean it, or pick out a dead fish, or whtaever.

The Creator of this universe is "external" to this universe. Therefore, HE is not bound by, nor does He have to follow the "laws" we see of cause and effect. In other words He doesn't ever had to have had a "beginning." He is the One who created the concept of beginings for our cause and effect universe. But just like the "keeper" of the fish tank, He is TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of whatever happens in the tank.

The atheist, because they are self-centered and juvenile in their world view can't get the simple and observable because they do not want to consider what it does to their options.

As stated by the "Darwinists" evolution is absolutely incompatibe with A Creator and A Savior. An "ape" has the first but doesn't want the second.

Recovering Liberal


ID vs evolution
The whole debate over evolution and an intelligent creator is based on flawed assumptions about God. The "problem" unravels as soon as it is understood that God is not some particular thing. God (i.e., the source of all things) is simply Awareness, Consciousness. Of course, awareness is not something we can see or touch. It has no color of form. It is not big or small. Yet we cannot escape it's presence. Everything we see, or can even imagine, is a form of consciousness. Birds are forms of consciousness. Rocks are forms of consciousness. The internet is a form of consciousness. But consciousness does not act out of will. It does not have a plan. It acts out of what it "sees". So, in a sense, there is a "creator", but this creator is nothing like the God of the Bible. However the "creator" is not unfamiliar to us. Indeed, nothing could be more familiar. We ourselves are forms of this same consciousness.

This is why there is so much confusion about how consciousness came about. People seem to assume that the earth was here, and then consciousness somehow appeared after that.

But consciousness is primary to matter. Consciousness creates matter. Once this is understood, the question, and the mystery go away.

Also Genesis is a metaphor, and a wonderfully wise one, at that. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of KNOWLEDGE. In other words, man developed the ability to conceptualize our experience. And with this special ability, we became self-conscious, which separated us from God (i.e., Pure, Undivided Consciousness). The way to "reconnect with God" is to forget about the self altogether and just see things as they are, prior to dividing the world into subject and object. Then we are looking through the eyes of God. Then we'll understand how God works, and how evolution works, and how the world can be the way it is.

Nice try Will
The "monkey law" was an attempt to establish the Bible as the only true interpretation of reality. That's modest? It strikes me as the height of hubris and arrogance.

And it's quite the logical leap to go from trying to protect one particular species from extinction, (which we have done several times) to "making the climate behave". It's not fair to characterize the goal of environmentalists to "make the climate behave". The goal is simply to stop gratuitously dumping tons of greenhouse gases into our paper thin atmosphere so that the planet doesn't become over-heated How is that hubris?


Hey Michigander...
I didn't call you a bigot. You proved yourself to be one as evidenced by your bigoted comment, "Yes, we would be living in an entirely different world had the South won the war. Now let's hear from the good ol' boys... I can hear that banjo strummin' and see the dawkies smilin' at ol' massa."

I know nothing of the sort in reference to the states not being separate countries. Explain the ninth and tenth amendments, the purpose of a governor as Head of state, a state Senate, a state representative, coupled with separate civil codes, criminal codes, tax codes, and administrative codes, complete with their own distinctive flags and military reserves.

If this is one big happy plantation as you purport in your ignorance of history, I can only deduce it must be the use of the word state as opposed to country which renders you confused.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
After this preamble, the very limited responsibilities of a federal government and its individual branches are clearly delineated. The constitution is not the abolition of state sovereignty nor is it a compact establishing a National centralized government. Any loss of sovereignty or liberty were the direct result of usurpation and tyranny at the federal level.

Darwinism?????
Gotta Love It !!
Man is SO Smart..Tower of Babel, The earth is flat, The Sun Revolves around the Earth.. Spontaneous Generation..

75 Million years ago...YOU, Where There?

But, The Sedimentary rocks Show.. that FRESH Lava TODAY on the Big Island is 250,000 years old by Radio Carbon Dating

Astro Physics..Gravity..Gears and Springs..Rolex..or Quartz and tuning forks..Seiko..PS: The Seiko is one heck of a better watch at 1/100 the cost !

SO: ANY PARADIGM SHIFT THINKERS OUT THERE ?????

Usually I, think Diagonally..

Try this on for Size;

TIME is not Linear:
Time is Compartmentalized:
Hence, It is not the Speed of light which is required for time travel but rather the Compartment Key:

Darwin, was a little Anti-God Man who was "blessed" by Satan to totally screw up humanity..because his vision was not God's Vision.. the test is Faith not Reason....Reason has screwed up constantly..there is the standard..

I love those guys in bent up "cowboy" hats at the "dig" in Wyoming..Goverment Grant.."uncovering Tyrannus Taxpayer Mega Fu&kus..
and saying "75 Million Years Ago"

Check out...enviromental stress changes..in regards to manifest physical changes...WITHOUT DNA Changes...(Darwin's Theory Screwed)..

Morons with PhD's graduate every day...Ozone layer, DDT/Malaria.. Y2K .Global Warming..The Eco balance between a Preius and a Hummer H-3 ( The H-3 -s life of vehicle..more eco-friendly)

Darwin who?
Job 38:4-10 "Where were you when I laid the Foundations of the earth?" "Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone? When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Global what?
Haven't you heard? Al Gore won the fight against global warming and is due another prize. Not only is the Earth cooling, somehow Big Al's efforts have caused Mars to reverse its warming trend too. All the evil rich especially need to thank him because they now will not have to contribute their fair share of the huge costs to remove the SUV's from that planet.

Two Problems
1. Science has not explained the origin of all the stuff which it says evolved into the Universe we see today.

2. Religion has not explained the origin of the Intelligent Designer who it says created the stuff and the design.

Darwin
Congress has a lot of power, but neither Congress, the President, the Supreme Court nor the UN can trump biology. Just as they cannot change the laws governing physics, chemistry, they cannot control the laws of biology. I also believe that they cannot control or change the laws that I think govern economy, sociology and psychology.
The girls and women will continue to have the babies. Unprotected promiscuous sex will continue to lead to pregnancy and venereal disease, including that equal opportunity killer-HIV. So will shooting up with dirty needles spread HIV.
High risk behavior equals serious consequences even thought some think that no one should ever have a bad result for bad behavior.
Donald W. Bales

re: Don Juan - extinction is forever ..

Not sophistry, but substance:

There is indeed a perverse fascination with human extinction, forced depopulation, and eugenics just under the surface of this movement.

The following took five minutes to assemble. A thorough literature search will generate considerably more..

Benatar, David, Better Never to Have Been, http://www.amazon.com/Better-Never-Have-Been-Existence/dp/ 0199296421/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197824816&sr=1-1

Engber, Daniel, (forced) depopulation, http://www.slate.com/id/2173950/

Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, http://www.vhemt.org/

Watson, Paul .. "We need to radically and intelligently reduce human populations to fewer than one billion."
http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/editorial-070504- 1.html

Weisman, Alan, The World Without Us,
http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Us-Alan-Weisman/dp/0312 427905/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234119367&sr=8-1

v/r,

-- Bud


Eugenics
Nancy "Salamander" Pelosi is a believer that the unfit should not be allowed to breed: they cost the states too much in Medicaid money, she reasons, so money spent on their sterilization - (or rather, on their temporary sterilization) - should be considered buoyant to our economy! Shades of Margaret Sanger, Eugenicist and social reformer, who thought that we should limit "human weeds."

Margaret Sanger was joined at the hip (metaphorically speaking) to Walter A. Plecker, himself someone who decried racial mixing - and as the first director of Virginia's Burau of Vital Statistics, who once boasted that "Hitler himself" didn't have such accurate records as those Plecker, a Medical doctor, kept.

So the circle has come full, 'round to people like the messiah, who is clearly a Deist - (as Robespierre) - but clearly not a Christian. Deists - (not Christians) - find Evolution compatible with a god, but not actually compatible with the God of Abraham, Moses and Jacob. Those require faith in Someone other than he-who-poses-in-the-mirror.

But Deists come and Deists go, though their evil lives on for new generations to plod through, and to infect others with. Now that Senator Infanticide is President Infanticide, we should reasonably begin to wonder what is in store for our own "unfit," particularly among the elderly. Will they be regarded as "passed beyond their humanity," just as babies already born are declared by the president as not quite definable as human, even though their first breaths have been taken?

Such are the Evolutionists and the Darwinian theorists. There is no such thing as "love" in their universe: only chemicals and hormones and transmitters and receptor sites. To them, human beings are just a flea on the back of an overburdened planet.

evolution is impossible
Will says, "Still, evolution is a fact and its mechanism is natural selection: Creatures with variations especially suited to their environmental situation have more descendants than do less well-adapted creatures."

He doesn't know what he's talking about. Evolutionists say humans and apes have a common ancestor, not that we evolved from apes. Evolution is not a fact and you cannot deduce that is from his argument; that he who has the most offsring has the most offspring.

Evolution is impossible and atheism is a logical absurdity.

We could make progress here.
If you could bring people of faith to accept that the bible and evolution are not fundamentally different, except for what made it happen, we could persuade people to stop thinking the earth is 7000 years old, which is awkward. If the concept of natural selection merely means the lack of premeditated design, that gives us a clear choice without one of them being stupidity. My own father is a member of such a faith-based group but came to realize as he picked up ice from a glacier and popped it in his mouth, that he had ice in his mouth that was formed 15000 years ago. It is asking too much for a preacher to ask you to believe that not only is the bible gospel, but his interpretation of the bible is also gospel.

phil
"Date: Feb 8, 2009 - 1:33 PM EST
hal whatever
your early post decrying gwb as incompetent is beyond laughable-.."

it did very little competently

"...Unions reduce the workforce to the output of the lest competent,protect the incompetent from the consequences of their own ineotitude, insure that the competent will never increase their output beyond the grubs at the bottom of the Darwinian theory."

really why were we the strongest power house in the world and won WWII, landed on the moon etc when unions were the largest and we are weakest now when the unions are also weakest. The least unionised states are also the poorest states

Survival of the fittest
I believe it was Darwin who never said, "Government schools are not the fittest and need the protection of a monopoly arrangement in order to survive."

hal whatever
your early post decrying gwb as incompetent is beyond laughable-the most identifying trait of liberalism is precisely -incompetence.
Unions reduce the workforce to the output of the lest competent,protect the incompetent from the consequences of their own ineotitude, insure that the competent will never increase their output beyond the grubs at the bottom of the Darwinian theory.


Jeff
and the center of the universe with the sun revolving around it...

Jeff
"Date: Feb 8, 2009 - 1:17 PM EST
Evolution is a lie
Evolution is a lie put forth by liberal academia and should be fought until our last breath just like other conservative issues as gun rights, Pro-Life issues, and other liberal lies!

Never give up the fight!"

you left out "the earth is flat"

Evolution is a lie
Evolution is a lie put forth by liberal academia and should be fought until our last breath just like other conservative issues as gun rights, Pro-Life issues, and other liberal lies!

Never give up the fight!

Lepanto
"Date: Feb 8, 2009 - 12:44 PM EST
Doc Liberty & Hal Donahue
Why, then, do leftists excoriate GWB?(Doc Liberty)

....The primary reason leftists excoriate GWB is political ideology. Time has lulled he left into believing there is not a current threat so political ideology trumps all. "

I disagree at least for moderates. We believe that the threat has grown because of mishandling and must be addressed quickly and professionally.