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Thursday, January 01, 2009
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
If You Think Health Care is Expensive...
by George Will
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


WASHINGTON -- Health care, says the man most concerned with that 17 percent of America's economy, can be "a nation-ruining issue." As Michael Leavitt ends four years as secretary of health and human services, he offers this attention-arresting arithmetic: Absent fundamental reforms, over the next two decades the average American household's health care spending, including the portion of its taxes that pays for Medicare and Medicaid, will go from 23 percent to 41 percent of average household income.

It is, Leavitt says, "predictable" that today's traumatizing economic turbulence, by heightening Americans' insecurity, will complicate reforming entitlements. This, too, is predictable: By curtailing revenues, today's recession will bring closer the projected exhaustion of the Medicare Part A trust fund, from early 2019 to perhaps 2016. That should get the president-elect's attention.

When Medicare was created in 1965, America's median age was 28.4; now it is 36.6. The elderly are more numerous and medicine is more broadly competent than was then anticipated. Leavitt says that Medicare's "big three" hospital procedure expenses today are hip and knee replacements and cardiovascular operations with stents, which were not on medicine's menu in 1965.

After being elected to three terms as Utah's governor, but before coming to HHS, Leavitt headed the Environmental Protection Agency. He came to consider it a public health agency because the surge in Americans'

longevity in the last third of the 20th century correlated with cleaner air and fewer water-borne diseases. Longevity is, however, expensive, and demography is compounding the problem.

In the 43 years since America decided that health care for the elderly would be paid for by people still working, the ratio of workers to seniors has steadily declined. And the number of seniors living long enough to have five or more chronic conditions -- 23 percent of Medicare beneficiaries -- has increased. Many of those conditions could be prevented or managed by better decisions about eating, exercising and smoking. The 20 percent of Americans who still smoke are a much larger percentage of the 23 percent who consume 67 percent of Medicare spending. Furthermore, nearly 30 percent of Medicare spending pays for care in the final year of patients' lives.

Suppose, says Leavitt, buying a car were like getting a knee operation. The dealer would say he does not know the final cumulative price, so just select a car and begin using it. Then a blizzard of bills would begin to arrive -- from the chassis manufacturer, the steering-wheel manufacturer, the seat and paint manufacturers. The dealership would charge for time spent there, and a separate charge would cover the salesperson's time.

Leavitt says that until health care recipients of common procedures can get, upfront, prices they can understand and compare, there will be little accountability or discipline in the system: "In the auto industry, if the steering-wheel maker charges an exorbitant price, the car company finds a more competitive supplier. In health care, if the medical equipment supplier charges an exorbitant price, none of the other medical participants care."

Medicare is a price-fixing system for upward of 12,000 procedures and drug codes -- and for hundreds of categories of equipment, the providers of which tenaciously oppose competition. Leavitt began implementing a tiny program of competitive bidding covering just 10 products in 10 cities.

Based on the 15 days it lasted before Congress repealed it, savings were projected to be substantial. That is why equipment providers got it repealed.

Rather than ruining the new year by dwelling on Medicare's unfunded liabilities of about $34 trillion (over a 75-year span), ruin it with this

fact: In the next 50 years, Medicaid, the program for the poor -- broadly, sometimes very broadly defined -- could become a bigger threat than Medicare to the nation's prosperity.

This is partly because of the cost of long-term care for the indigent elderly, some of whom shed assets to meet Medicaid's eligibility standard -- sometimes as high as income under 200 percent of the federal poverty level. And many states, eager to expand the ranks of the dependent with the help of federal Medicaid money, use "income disregards" to make poverty an elastic concept. For example, they say: A person who gets a raise that eliminates his eligibility can disregard the portion of his income that pays for housing, or transportation.

Governments with powerful political incentives to behave this way will play an increasingly large role in health care. As is said, if you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it is free.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Having it Both Ways?


If complex medical procedures are so expensive because there are multitudes of hidden costs charged by unaccountable providers of obscure medical equipment, drugs, services, etc, wouldn't it be much, much better than nothing to have a system like medicare, that at least does fix costs for many medical procedures?

I'd like to hear more about Mr. Leavitt's short-lived pilot program, but absent that aren't (relatively) fixed costs better than unaccountable pricing run amuck?

Here we go again
"That at least does fix costs..."


Been there. Done that. Doesn't Work. It makes the "fixed cost" procedure free except that that "Free" procedure DOESN"T GET PERFORMED !!!!!!!

Geez.... .LIBERALS!!!!!

Mortality Rate
The mortality rate is still 100 percent, whether you are rich or poor, have good coverage or not.

As a fairly poor person, not anywhere near "middle class," I could worry myself to death about all this...

You don't have to be a Ph.d in sociology to see that the suicide rates will also be going way up--if these propects come true.

Canada
What do you call a Canadian getting a timely MRI?

A visitor to Michigan.

Set costs also set limits.

Do you agree with this idea?

I have posted this several times, and have received absolutely no reply from anyone. Would someone please give me your thoughts on the matter.
---

Here is a copy of my letter to Dr. NO, Senator Coburn from Okla.

Dr. Coburn,

If citizens and the Congress insist that there be a single-payer health plan, here is an idea that should be looked at. This is page one, of a 5,000 page document, but it must start somewhere.

I’ve talked to several doctors and pharmacists and to economists, PhDs and others, and they all think it sounds great.

Health care would be free to all, except all would pay taxes and a co-pay, rather than for health care insurance.

The way to reduce Health Care costs is simple. Just eliminate all insurance companies, their buildings, computers, and employees, and get rid of all Government health care employees. That would also eliminate the people in each and every doctor’s office and hospital, who spend their day filling out insurance forms.

I understand that there is a list of the procedures and the cost of each, for various parts of the Country.

Give every qualified doctor, hospital, and pharmacy a BLANK CHECKBOOK so they could write a check each evening for all the services they had provided that day.

Find the proper line on every income tax form, multiply that number by a percentage that would equal the total cost of health care. Based on that number, issue a card that would tell the co-pay (a progressive number, based on income). No one would get in for free, with maybe at least a dollar for those who can prove they had little or no income.

Just hire a bunch of auditors to randomly check and made sure they aren’t stealing any more than is being stolen today. And on and on.

And I bet the cost would be cut in half.

Health costs in this country are so high because these days, a $5,000 funeral, is delayed by a much more expensive medical procedure.

we could see three offices with MRI syst

Cyril Location: PA
Reply # 4
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 12:55 AM EST
Canada
What do you call a Canadian getting a timely MRI?
======

One year (ten to fifteen years ago) when friends visited from Toronto, Canada, (we lived near Palm Springs at that time), they mentioned that there were three MRI systems in all Toronto, with a long waiting list of patients.

As we stood at the corner of Monterey and Fred Waring Drive, we could see three offices with MRI systems, and was just three of several for a few hundred thousand people in the Coachella Valley, not three systems for the millions of people in Toronto.

What's all the fuss about?
Obama can easily moderate costs to our healthcare system by outlawing unhealthy activities. After all, people who take care of themselves should not have to pay for the harm smokers, pot heads, drunkards, and lechers subject themselves to. Heck almost any activity could be banned if B.O. and congress consider it somehow dangerous. Under socialism, one man's burden becomes the entire community's burden.

Can we logically expect any differing outcome under the incoming administration?

are you going to improve on that?

Mr. Will said: The 20 percent of Americans who still smoke are a much larger percentage of the 23 percent who consume 67 percent of Medicare spending.
=========

Just a few days ago on TV they were interviewing a famous Doctor about the cost of Medical Care. He said, and I have heard others say the same thing, that a smoker dies before a lot of medical care is needed.

If they quit smoking they would live longer, and the total cost of health care would go up.

I remember that 75 years ago, we sometimes paid $1 to Dr. Bonebreak for an office visit. No one had any medical insurance, and guess what, everyone lived until they died.

Now tell me, how are you going to improve on that?

We Have Lost ?


Really Curious !

"PRAVDA TH" JUST PULLED THE MICHELLE MALKIN COLUMN FROM THEIR SCREEN.

The last post I saw was :

@ Reply # 275
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 12:28 AM EST ...

~~~


My last post was :

~~~~
Is it just my screen?

The fine Michelle Malkin Column is no longer shown on my screen with the Photo, and the other options.

Her column is NOW, shown ONLY at the top of my screen where only the Name of the author, and title of the article are shown.

Hmm?

~~~

Hey, Michelle! YOU ARE DIRECTLY OVER THE TARGET !

Please drop your full load of Bombs!

You have a BIG following here at the, more and more, leftist, PC adherent, and just irrelevant 'Town House' site.

~~~

GEEZE ! Town Hall !

WHY? WHY Are the commie posters are treated with more respect than many of our best Columnists and posters ?

~~~
I did celebrate the 'New Year' with celebratory noise.

I lifted my left Cheek and gave all the commie trolls a kiss of a vaporous combination of Methane, CO2 and other emanations, to revile the senses.

And, Pravda TH, here is another, just for you ! OK, Just One More... !@#$%^&*() DANM ! Now I have to go wipe on TH er TP.

~~~

OK, I may be banned forever, from 'PRAVDA TH', but I have to say this !

If the UAW has now become more powerful than the Ist Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States, this Once Fine Country is already dead!


TownHall AKA 'Pravda TH' has just pulled Michelle Malkin's column from their screen!

Why? Because she dared to criticize the UAW !

I have worked under the thumb of the UAW for 43 three years, and I can tell you, She is 100% correct on every account! Yes! I can tell you stories if you want them!
email @
rattusamericansis@yahoo,com

I can also tell you, she understated their vile doings in every one of her comments!

Doubt it? I can tell you stories, but if I had any condemning PROOF, I would not still be alive.



Health Care?
Current system is enough to make a person sick.
Insurance drove the price up and the service down. I say put Doctors and Hospitals on the free market. Let the people decide who what when and where they want to spend their money. The health care folks may look like used car dealers offering lower prices. But, heck at least we would know they really want our business because they would be out here soliciting for it. 'Knee Job $199.00 with Sunday paper coupon!'

Bad Policy All Around
The ugly fact is that a government policy mandating health care for the elderly, alongside a policy funding research that allows citizens to live longer (and supporting regulations that lead to longer life spans) represents a bad mix.

Yeah, I know. Harsh. Longer life spans also increase pressure on natural resources and, believe it or not, drive up costs for raw materials.

I'm watching my father-in-law live out his last days--which are very long days--unable to see, barely able to hear, unable to walk, and simultaneously incontinent and constipated, all thanks to modern medical miracles like pacemakers and blood thinners and anti-cancer treatments. At 91, he's gone far past his "best when used by" date. Nature intended him to go 15 years ago or more, when his heart simply stopped functioning. Medical science swooped to the rescue, but are the results worth it?

Now he sits in a wheelchair all day, in pain due to a necrotic hip joint, and has to lay down in order to pee (he requires dedicated care 24 hours a day). He can barely feed himself due to loss of neural function, and his right hand is becoming less and less capable every day.

He could have gone quickly. Now he just dies an hour at a time, while we watch. Medicare pays for this travesty. 'Way to go, us.

From New England Jrnl of Medicine study.
Consumeraffairs.com article, dated Aug. 2003:

"The overhead cost of operating the United States health-care system is more than three times that of running Canada's on a per capita basis, and the gap is getting bigger, according to a study published today in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Savings gleaned from a national health insurance system like Canada's would be enough to provide medical insurance for the 41 million Americans who now lack coverage, the researchers said.

The study puts the administrative cost of the U.S. system at $294 billion per year, compared to about $9.4 billion in Canada. That translates to a per-person cost of $1,059 in the U.S. and $307 in Canada. A similar study, conducted in 1991, put per-capita costs in the U.S. at $450 and Canadian costs at one-third of that.

The study by Dr. Steffi Woolhandler of the Harvard School of Medicine found that Americans spend more on administrative costs because of the many private companies supplying insurance coverage. The multitude of companies create increased paperwork while Canadian doctors send their claims to a single insurer, the government."

Our costs are excessive, compared with the industrialized world. Our longevity and infant mortality rates are mediocre, at best.







Medicaid
Write congress and ask them to outlaw "shedding" assets before going to a nursing home. After all, they are stealing aren't they. Any of you crooks out there? I know several and they are all liberals.

Does anyone really think ....
Does anyone really think the American taxpayer is going to just take the government’s confiscation of their earned income / wealth to pay for more and more socialized health care? I don’t! I expect a REVOLUTION if this confiscations continues!

vamtns41
I get your point but wonder if you've considered that there appears to be more of us that are willing to spend other's money than there are producers. Take a look at taxfoundation.org and you might conclude that we are on the way down since politicians are only interested in getting re-elected.

hmmmm
Welcome to the land of more and more socialism. and remember to turn the light on at motel 6 so when you chek in for your last trip to the DR as they give you a drip to end your life since the gov has bankrupted everybody and now no money to live on.

What Will Be
Nevertheless, national health care is coming. Conservatives can bemoan it all they want, but it's coming.

America is a different country now. Now a majority of its citizens have either resigned themselves to or fully embrace socialism. They were conceived in a hippy ganggbangg at Woodstock and then abandoned by their doper parents, illegal Third World refugees who know nothing but servitude, or indigenous losers who want government to take stuff away from those they envy. They are now the majority.

Conservatives will do what they always do, meekly pay for it. No, there wont' be a revolution. Productive Americans will not risk their warm homes, big TVs and their comfortable life styles to battle it out with the BATF, FBI or the National Guard. They will submit.

And one day when you've just been notified by the Committee of Health Authorization that you're number 5,678,9000 on the waiting list for a life saving operation, you'll get mad and yell at the Peoples Representative on the phone.

And she'll say, "Don't you be talkin' ta me dat way. I be hangin' up on yo a@@zz mother effer".

Cognitive dissonance
One of the rules of economics is that any product or service that is subsidized goes up in price. We have in the US a medical "system" in which nearly all medical care is subsidized by employer-paid insurance.

Instead of increasing insurance coverage as nearly all politicians promise, we need to go the other way - reduce medical insurance to the status of car/house insurance. Do you expect your car insurance to pay for oil changes, or your house insurance for routine upkeep? Why do nearly all of us expect health insurance to pay for nearly all our medical needs. Move medical insurance to the point of paying for major medical expenses and let individuals pay for their routine medical care.

I've talked with several good physicians who bemoan the amount of time, money, and effort they expend satisfying the insurance bureaucracies. They could provide health maintenance and minor illness care at a fraction of the cost w/o all the paperwork.

One of McCain's good ideas was to remove the tax deduction from employers and transfer it to the individual citizen to be used as the citizen felt best for his circumstances.

As for the poor, let states/local governments/charitable organizations establish programs to help them. Matter-of-fact, I remember from my childhood in the dark ages that a number of physicians provided free or cut-rate medical care through such programs.

A 'lifeboat' society
We are obsessed with 'lifeboats' such as SCHIP (State Children's Health Insurance Program), Universal Health Care, Welfare, Medicare and Public Education. Usually, Leftists begin their arguments with "if America is a compassionate nation, how can we not take care of ____ !"

Leftist solutions almost always rely on higher taxation, which inevitably ensures that more people will need such lifeboats.

Observe how much of our discussion is centered around the few Americans who 'have not'. A visitor from Mars would think that there must be some kind of ongoing calamity in America that causes so much attention to be directed towards relief efforts. The same Martian visitor would simultaneously be confounded by the reality that America is actually quite an affluent, prosperous place. While success in America is by no means guaranteed, a minimal standard of living is reasonably easy to achieve. However, that minimal standard of living does not necessarily include the highest level of Health Care - or filet mignon every night for that matter!

The truth is that whining about compassion makes for great political rhetoric - and not much else. The (D) party has figured out that we Americans are suckers for sanctimonious do-goodery.

The (R) party is also powerless to resist that 'lure of easy money', as exemplified by the fact we are witnessing competing proposals from both parties - both of which expand UHC.

Soon, we will see competing proposals for Universal Health Care. Republican candidates will bleat that they are fighting vigorously to stem the Leftist tide, while offering proposals that are only slightly less obscene than those from the Democrats.

In the end, we will become a nation of lifeboat-dependants, while the main ship falls into decay due to the neglect caused by false incentives. It is also very likely that the ship sinks under the weight of the gold plated lifeboats that we have constructed.

Are you mindless enough to be liberal?
For complete list/article see here:

http://ednaeagle.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx

Cognitive dissonance
As a tax, mortgage, and bill paying member of the medical community, it galls me when I receive the blizzard of bills from the "a la carte" menue after I, or a member of my family, has received any care. If my income were to remotely approach the amount of money I put out for health care per hour of care, I'd be a remarkably rich man. Instead, I struggle to combat the deceptions and self-serving "negotiations" made on my behalf by the insurance company I have retained, and the haphazard charges, allowances, co-pays, deductibles, write-offs, contracted prices, and the rest that combine to determine my bill. This lot not to mention the double-dipping, balance-billing, whoops-we-made-a-mistake-shouldn't-a-done-that attitude I encounter when I manage to figure out I've been had.

No wonder in this age of financial meltdowns, bank malfeasance, greed and assorted selfishness has health care come to mean "money grab." The bottom line of the health care system isn't the health of you or I, it's the size of the profit to the payor -- be it me, the insurance company or the government. Put that factor back in my hands (the end user-for example, as a in a HSA) and we'll soon see sanity returned. Until the $$$ stops at the owner of that $$$, bills, charges, and income will tend to demand maximum profit.

Would rather die free than
live under what appears to be coming. God, we have become home of the cowards. Would you go ahead and die at 70 rather than 72, for instance, to save your grandchildren, if it meant having freedom but perhaps not being able to afford free care at the end to keep you alive in a coma? Then support FREEDOM, free markets.

Obama and team will even more heavily regulate the system with the goal being to increase costs even faster until so high that we kneel at his feet and plead for his and Hillary's way.

Heil Fuhrer! Your way is going to win after all. The American People lack the character to be free. We'll be into socialism before you know. Might even look something like the Nazi variety.

H S A, all the way!
Two years ago, I offered the employees at my company a choice in Health Insurance plans:

* traditional (70/50 PPO)
-OR-
* 100/70 High Deductible Health Plan (HDHP, with Health Savings Account (HSA), and a $50/mo employer contribution).

For those who are unfamiliar with HSAs, here are some features:

* HSAs do NOT have an annual use-it-or-lose it policy!
* HSAs are owned by the individual, so they are completely portable - not tied to the employer or to the insurance provider.
* In our case, each individual gets a debit card (M/c or Visa) that can be swiped while buying prescriptions, eyeglasses, or even vitamins at a grocery store. With tax-exempt dollars!
* Visits to doctors' offices can be paid for via a checkbook that draws on the individual's account. With tax-exempt dollars!

From an employer's perspective: The total expenditure per employee is roughly the same for my company irrespective of the choices made by employees. But the premium costs for PPOs rise much faster than those for HSAs.

In the first year, about 50% of the employees opted for the HSA. As an employee/owner I opted for the HSA for myself (and family).

Now in the second year, 66% of the employees opted for the HSA. The 'fear of the unknown' has subsided.

Some think of it as a 401(k) for healthcare! And that is not a bad analogy.

Conclusion: HSAs work!

A 10 year plan to fix Healthcare
PHASE1 (1st five yrs)
* Medicare/Medicaid vouchers for the poor and elderly - yes, this perpetuates the status quo, but fairness dictates a short term 'amnesty'
* cease Medicare 'deduction' and employer match
* return the previously extorted Medicare funds (with interest) into the Health Savings Accounts of individuals
* continue tax deductibility of Health Savings Accounts - employers may choose to contribute into the Health Savings Accounts of their employees
* fee for service begins to eliminate the need for insurance companies EXCEPT for catastrophic coverage
* costs start to come down (supply-and-demand at work)

PHASE2 (next five yrs)
* Healthcare vouchers ONLY for the poor and/or for those who are above a certain 'cut-off' age
* tax relief for everyone else
* end tax deductibility of Health Savings Accounts

PHASE3 (the future)
* no more Medicare, Medicaid etc.
* the poor are helped by voluntary, private charity
* Return to fee-for-service
* Health insurance is relegated to its rightful status - as a hedge against catastrophic illness

Opponents will charge that it is too cold & heartless. Inevitably there will be some who can't afford medical care, requiring private charity to intercede on their behalf. In reality, the lower costs would ensure that there would be a decrease in the number of people who can't afford medical care.

Actually our healthcare system is less screwed up than our education system! At least Govt does not (with some exceptions) own and operate most of the hospitals. So, the above solution is easier than my proposal for fixing K-12 education:

http://voice.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx?mode=post&g=a71b 80ca-d2ff-4587-a7cd-1c6c55221b55

The above solutions do not 'feel good', but they will work. However, it may be difficult to get a Presidential candidate to take this 'tough love' approach - for fear that it may not resonate in present-day Peoria where populism prevails.

Make it illegal...
...to get sick or injured.Problem solved.Now what's the next problem?

Government Intervention?
“Based on the 15 days it lasted before Congress repealed it, savings were projected to be substantial. That is why equipment providers got it repealed.”

Once again we see the effects of our illustrious leaders in the congress acting on our behalf, and once again we see the increased costs associated with their intervention. The best remedy for our entire nation’s ills is to get the government out of the way, off of our backs, and out of our pockets.

Government regulation caused the financial market meltdown. Government regulation adds untold thousands to the cost of a new car resulting in diminished sales. Government regulation is bringing this once great country to its knees.

The Rub
The contradictions of this quasi private/public medical system that we have abound. And, at the end of the day, we pay almost twice as much today as people in most other industrial nations pay for health care. And the cost is rising - not falling.

Are we getting twice as much value? Not according to the most important statistic - which is longevity.

We also like to pretend that our free enterprise medical system - which is not a free enterprise medical system when over 50% of the cost is already paid for by government - is more innovative and provides better care. But is our care "TWICE" as good as the rest? Indeed, when you look at the difference between having 3 $1 million MRI machines on a corner, or 3 in one entire city, you can point out that one has a waiting list - and one does not - but that says nothing about whether or not the 3 in one city are sufficient to maintain the health of the citizens - even if they have to wait. And since Canadians live longer, it appears to be so.

And, of course, nothing stops a Canadian from driving to the US and paying for an exam - which is, after all, free enterprise. But most don't - they just complain about the waits - knowing they pay about 1/2 for care that Americans do.

So, if you could save 50% on your medical care - would you wait?

Right now we pay health insurance and taxes to cover medical costs, and the price we pay suggests we should have a "cadillac" system.

But you know what - most Americans don't drive Cadillacs because they can't afford them.

And that's the reason most country's have single payer health systems. Those systems are Ford's, and provide basic health services to their people, for about 1/2 the price.

There's the rub.

HSA won't work
How would the Illegal aliens get medical care?

As someone else says, get back to work, 12 million illegal aliens are depending on you!

OLD JOKE

.....Doctor to patient, "If you stop smoking, stop drinking and stop chasing women, you will live ten years longer" ...

.....Patient: "If I have to give up all that, why would I want to?" ...

.....The main problem with health care is government interference ...what the government does best is collect taxes and make everything more expensive and inefficient ...

.....RINZAI FL .....I sympathize with your father-in-law ...when the quality of a person's life becomes intolerable they should be allowed to opt out with dignity ...

....There was a movie several years back where society mandated that life be terminated at a certain age, I think it was 30, I can't remember the name of the movie, it was "(Blank) Run" ....can anybody help me out? .....COLOSSUS

Government regulation
Excessive (and often unconstitutional) government regulation amounts to fascism. This is not a bad system if you are a politician. When the inevitable disasters occur, you can always blame the "evil" owners of the privately owned but government controlled companies.

health care costs
no one has mentioned the effect of our huge supply of lawyers and the outrageous liability insurance premiums paid for by doctors. How would this be handled under a single payer system? I believe that other countries have an entirely different tort system

Ratas y Ratones
Michelle Malkin's column and comments come up just fine for me. Relax, it's just a glitch, not a conspiracy. Now why don't you go out and buy yourself something pretty...

baseballdoc
it was "Logan's Run" with Michael York & a delicious Jenny Agutter.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074812/

Healthcare $
All good, true pts. In spite of the gaming of the system by both govt's and individuals and even in spite of our aging demographic, so many of our health probs c/b ameliorated, even cured, by better choices, as Will pts out - in exercise, eating, smoking, alcohol, drugs and all the rest of it. I know. I've been fighting and losing my battle w obesity all my life - between a pathetic lack of discipline and genetics, I'm s______, though I have had transient successes. Indeed I'm utterly convinced the only factors keeping me alive and in reasonably good health today are prayer and my exercise regimen.
Our problems are very largely self generated, something no one wants to admit, least of all pols.
Indeed incremental moral improvement on all our parts would go a long way.

Well George,
Maybe we need to look north.

O Canada

Will on a role
Though he's short on solutions.

I agree with many on this thread. Eliminate subsidies and the price of health care and health insurance will come down. Tort reform should occur as well.

It's the only logical solution. To do otherwise is illogical and doomed to fail, as we are currently witnessing.

If you had the choice
If you had the choice to be born anywhere in the world, and your family situation was uncertain, which would you choose?

Country A: less life expectancy, higher infant mortality rate, larger chance of living in poverty, twice the health care bills

Country B: longer life expectancy, lower infant mortality rate, less chance of living in poverty, half the health care bills as above

Oh, and there is a chance that in Country B that you may have to wait a few weeks for your hip replacement, but everyone I have ever known to get one waited years to decide they were going to bite the bullet and make the commitment.

Then there is are the people like me who do not get the root canal in a timely fashion because it costs $1,500 out of my own pocket. Of course I'm in Country A, and I don't get to pop into the local dentist and simply get it done.

Hmmmm. Longer life, less costs, better chance of living past infancy... tough choice. OH, WAIT!!!! OH NOES! Country B IS BEING CALLED SOCIALISM!!!! WE CANNOT HAVE SOCIALISM!!! I'M GOING TO HAVE TO VOTE FOR Country A TO AVOID THAT DARN WORK I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT EXCEPT THAT ROVE TOLD ME IT WAS BAD FOR THE GOOD OLE USA.

Rat, Rat, Rat....
Michelle's column is gone because it was YESTERDAY's, replaced, like always, by TODAY's. It's still on her website.

Usually luv your stuff, but I think you owe TH an apology.

You've posted your protest on every thread I've visited so far today. Don't make me start scrolling past your comments as a useless, waste of time and space - like Wobbie, Hal or Krulmews.

If You Think Health Care Is Expensive
Not mentioned in this column is the fact that already some 50 million human beings have had their lives ended by abortion before they could grow up and start earning and paying in to Social Security and Medicare--and just as the largest generation in American history starts collecting, we begin an administration led by a president who has promised to greatly increase the number of abortions. A generation from now, will our elderly be facing involuntary euthanasia because the country simply cannot afford them?

I JUST DO NOT UNDERSTAND

CAN’T EVEN ONE OF YOU RESPOND TO MY POST #5

In the next 35 replies, several of you have hinted at the same thing I propose, and the problem others complain about, would be solved using what I propose, but not one, not one of you responded to my plan.

Every doctor, every pharmacist, every economist I have presented it to, thought it was a great idea.

Would at least one of you please re=read it and comment.


I will let God do it.


I say that when it is my time to die, and I hope it is soon, I will let God do it.

And God don’t use no pills, no tubes, no tanks, no wires, no knives.

I told my Dr. that if he ever hooks me to one of those stupid torture machines, he better hope it doesn’t work, cause if it does, I coming after him.

There should be a thousand Kevorkian Rooms in this country, open 24/7 to all comers, plus one in each and every prison.

I propose someone start the Kevorkian Airline, an airline that will fly a mile high, push the needle, fly a hundred miles over the ocean, then kick open the door. They could sell a million tickets in the first five minutes.

Would you but a ticket, at the right time?

How about the Kevorkian Cruise Line, with one-way tickets, good for 500 miles out in the ocean?

What gives anyone the right to tell me that I can’t fly in Kevorkian Airline?

And I pray that I will have dinner in Heaven tonight with my Beautiful Sweetie.

Hey Rat Rat

Why not stay on the subject instead of giving false information.

I just read Michelle's column on TH, so get with it.

With your wise-guy attitude why don't you respond to #5?

To baseball doc
And in Logan's run the people didn't know they were being terminated. Their government had convinced them that in the ritual known as "Renewal", they were being reborn rather than disintegrated. Must have been Democrats.

Jim
Are you proposing a Canadian system with blank check to the doctors? Blank checks are obviously a bad idea, but I'm sure every doctor you spoke with like the idea.

Why not simply adopt the program that we know works and costs less? No need to perform research that will cost a billion to come to the same conclusion other countries have already done.

Oh, that would be the dreaded SOCIALISM!! Run away, run away. We cannot have lowered infant mortality rates, higher life expectancy, and pay about half in medical bills -- if it involves the dreaded SOCIALISM!!!

Too bad so few Cons understand what socialism means, or what parts of their lives are already socialistic in nature. Many also do not understand how much of what we pay for medical bills goes to the inefficient payment system in place.

As for the lawyers, I'm not as interested in applying a band-aid when the patient is in need of a tourniquet. Just as man-on-dog Santorum how much his family reaped from his wife's back surgery after Rickey proposed a cap on lawsuits. Hypocrite.

It's not just the insurers and gov't
As an RN having worked in the field for almost 30 years, I'm usually dismayed by patients who drive up costs by demanding things that are not needed. Used to be that after shoulder or knee surgery I'd tell patients to use a bag of frozen peas or corn to reduce post-op swelling. The bag could easily be shaped around the joint and was inexpensive. But now they insist on a cooling pump that does the same thing (at $200/day for the first 14 days post-op). And those unfortunate folks who wind up loosing legs used to receive an artificial limb costing $20,000. Now even 90-year old wheelchair bound patients (or their advocates) insist on a computerized leg costing $100,000. And all those unnecessary MRI's ordered (approx $1000 a pop) by physicians afraid of being sued if they don't. I could go on. Fact is, we brought this crisis on ourselves!

OREGON LADY & M

.....Thanks! ....I saw the movie years ago but I had a temporary mental block .....COLOSSUS

Comment number 1 on my #5

inthemajority Location: PA
Reply # 45
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 12:20 PM EST
=====
WOW, you actually responded to #5.

I am not proposing a system anyone has ever tried.

I don't think the QUALIFIED doctor would steal any more money than is being stolen right now. With a proper Computer Program, and a bunch of Monitors/Auditors, and prompt and proper punishment for the crooks (well some doctors are Libs), that could be controlled.

Just think of the elimination of all the paper work. The saving on file drawers would be millions.

As for lawyers, it would be a criminal action for a lawyer to even talk to a patient about suing a doctor.

If the doctor commits a crime, by his actions, that's the Government's problem. If the patient wants to collect money if the doctor makes a mistake, the patient will buy the malpractice insurance, just like many people do when they fly on an airplane.

The doctor is human, and if he makes a mistake, so what, you are most likely there because you made a mistake.

Messing with the computer system would be a Capital crime, carried out within 30 days of the computer fool showing off his criminal mind.

And you will live until you die, the greatest health care system ever. And that is not new.

INTHEMAJORITY & JIM

.....Since we no longer have a Constitutional Republic and are knee deep in Socialism already, why not go whole hog and get it over with ...

.....Let's nationalize all hospitals and health care facilities ...doctors and nurses will then become Federal employees and health insurance can be made illegal ...

.....All health care and hospital stays will be free as they will be paid for by our taxes and the the government gets to decide who lives or dies ...maybe an implanted chip at birth with an expiration date ...sort of an improved version of Logan's Run ...

.....This would also solve the SS crisis ...retirement age could be raised to 95 as nobody would live that long .....COLOSSUS

inthemajority
You are pretty naive to think that socialism will improve life expectancy. You liberals love using Norway and Canada as examples of wealth redistribution's attributes. In reality, the latter country is not doing very well, with their so-called system on the brink of collapse. The quality of their health care is an absolute joke, they have no research and development to speak of, and their pharmaceutical industry consists of medical marijuana (you're favorite, I'm sure). As for Norway, it's a country of four million that's built on oil and not affiliated with the EU. All things considered, they should be quite a bit better off.

Don't think, for a second, that I will allow you to take MY money in order to finance your sorry excuse for a lifestyle. I work for a living and take care of myself, YOU do not. I am not going to pay for the consequences of YOUR drug use, laziness, and reckless decisions.

AFFORDABLE
Our government has given us AFFORDABLE retirement (Social Security and Medicare that are in the hole between 50 and 100 TRILLION dollars), AFFORDABLE poverty (the war on poverty has cost between 5 and 10 TRILLION dollars without even a dent on the poverty rate but the enslavement of untold millions of individuals), and AFFORDABLE housing (who knows how many TRILLIONS of dollars this will cost in addition to feeding the socialist beast). I think I can be forgiven for being somewhat apprehensive about what AFFORDABLE health care will deliver.

Happy New Year

Inthemajority said:
“Too bad so few Cons understand what socialism means, or what parts of their lives are already socialistic in nature.”
*******************************************************
The S word is all that matters for most here. Come on Cons – tell us why better health, lower costs is bad.

America starts getting healthy in 19 days. Bush/Cheney virus near end.

Jim in CA
Only socialists and the ignorant want socialized health care. Most here on TH, including myself, don't want taxpayer subsidization of ANY industry. Health care costs are a perfect example of what happens when government creates a monopoly. Wrong is wrong, and no matter how it is implemented (even with your plan), socialized health care costs way more than it benefits.

What you offer is a false choice. Plus, you're asking conservatives to suspend reason and "think" like liberals.


facts
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php

Inthemaj
I know what socialism means: state-sponsored slavery, tyranny of the majority, and lowest-common-denominator equality.

"The whole of society will have become a single office and a single factory with equality of work and equality of pay." -Lenin (1917)

" In a country where the sole employer is the State, opposition means death by slow starvation. The old principle: who does not work shall not eat, has been replaced by a new one: who does not obey shall not eat." -Trotsky (1937)

"The finest opportunity ever given to the world was thrown away because the passion for equality made vain the hope for freedom." -Lord Acton

Oh yes. I know socialism all too well. You are evil.

Read, understand, then comment

When I asked for a comment on My #5, I did expect at least one of you would read it, and try to understand it, before posting all the crap I see now.

baseballdoc Location: TX
Reply # 5
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 12:42 PM EST
Subject: INTHEMAJORITY & JIM

You: .....Let's nationalize all hospitals and health care facilities ...doctors and nurses will then become Federal employees and health insurance can be made illegal ...

Me: Not even hinted at. The only person you meet with is your doctor, and he is a private citizen.

You: and the the government gets to decide who lives or dies

Me: the govt will not be involved at all, only your Dr.

Health Care is Expensive
Health Care is Expensive: The conservative solution should be emphasis on PREVENTION, EDUCATION, and insisting on PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY; all anathema to liberal pukes who want others to foot the bill for their profligacy. Yes, there has to be a last resort privately-run system to address "no fault of your own" medical problems but it must be as lean as possible while providing quality care with dignity...a real balancing act!

It is a private system

Each year the medical associations in each area determine the costs for each procedure they might preform, and estimate the total cost. The Govt will determine, by information collected from Income Tax forms, what percentage is needed to finance what the medical people require.

I still liked the no health insurance plan, where you live until you die.

=====
The Plumber Location: CO
Reply # 1
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 1:10 PM EST
Subject: Jim in CA
You: Only socialists and the ignorant want socialized health care.

Me: I never said I wanted health care for all, I liked it best when a person was permitted to live until they died.

You: no matter how it is implemented (even with your plan), socialized health care costs way more than it benefits.

Me: All those costs are prohibited under my plan.

I don't want socialized health care.
but if we are going to have it forced on us, let's do it right.


The Plumber Location: CO
Reply # 1
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 1:10 PM EST
Subject: Jim in CA
You: Only socialists and the ignorant want socialized health care.

Me: I never said I wanted health care for all, I liked it best when a person was permitted to live until they died.

You: no matter how it is implemented (even with your plan), socialized health care costs way more than it benefits.

Me: All those costs are prohibited under my plan.

Jim in CA
I did read your comment. Several times.

"If citizens and the Congress insist that there be a single-payer health plan"

Illogical.

"Health care would be free to all, except all would pay taxes and a co-pay,"

Oxymoron.

"Just eliminate all insurance companies, their buildings, computers, and employees..."

UnConstitutional.

"Give every qualified doctor, hospital, and pharmacy a BLANK CHECKBOOK..."

They've already got a blank checkbook. Each check, however, is a 100+ page form.

"Find the proper line on every income tax form, multiply that number by a percentage that would equal the total cost of health care. Based on that number, issue a card that would tell the co-pay (a progressive number, based on income)."

egads.

Please. Stop voting. And stay in CA. Please.

As a combat wounded.....
...veteran I'm "entitled" to receive free medical treatment for the rest of my life due to the number of them. But I wouldn't go to the Detroit VA hosptital (aka, "the hole before the hole") for any reason, even at gunpoint.

Think about it, federal employees with a union and affirmative action: a deadly, fire-proof combination when it comes to committment, capability, and accountability.

For a time, I drove the extra 50 miles to the VA hospital in Ann Arbor and found that the assembly line method of treatment to be the same: show-up, shut-up, and take these meds, number #146 (or whatever number you drew upon arrival). More surgery needed? Go to department C, and make another appointment. See you in a month - or two, or three.

To the people who want socialized medicine; you have no idea what you're in for.

When the wounds act up, I go to a private physician or hospital and pay for everything myself. My physician cuts me major financial breaks, (a great guy!), and he gets the job done without any hassle - as happens when I end up at a hospital on rare occasions.

No days off to drive to a VA hospital are necessary. My doctor sees me in minutes, and then I'm out of there. The hospital is just about the same, with real, knowledgeable human personalities treating you.

My choice for medical treatment absolutely destroys my bank account, but I just continue saving for future visits. It's worth it to me because the government alternative is a nightmare.

something to look into
My daughter is married to an Alaska Native (we capitalize that word here). Because of that, her children's medical care is all free, as well as her maternity care. Including an emergency C section and two weeks in the NICU for her daughter. They are not crushed under medical debt. Mother and daughter are both alive and in good health. So. This all is done through the Native corporations and not the Bureau of Indian Affairs. How is that different from socialized medicine? Is it worth emulating? I don't want British medicine where you have to wait so long to get into a hospital that by the time you do get in, your condition is untreatable. I do want something that saves my daughter's life, or saves other people's daughters and granddaughters. I would pay taxes for that. Can it be done?

nomo
I don't know how to communicate this in terms you will understand. Simply put, under socialism, people like me who work hard and take care of themselves have to pay for people like YOU who do not. That's a pretty good deal for you, but don't expect me to allow it without a fight. Moreover, when YOUR naive president-elect finds out how poorly you and your comrades take care of yourselves, he will have to ban activities that strain the healthcare system.

I suppose you plan to cure America in 19 days with all of that great medical marijuana. Quick question: how do you fend off a case of the "munchies" with that organic PETA-approved food? I doubt it could be very satisfying.

lemonfemale
Your daughter is dealing with a VERY small-scale system. It is almost certainly not cost-effective, but is too small of a burden to be addressed. Open that system to 300 million Americans and you can expect some trouble. Socialized medicine can only avoid disaster in small, naturally wealthy countries like Norway (4 million people and built on oil). It's still not the best system in those countries, but they can afford it, nonetheless.

Also don't forget that socialized medicine severely limits research and development. Pharmaceutical executives may live handsomely but not to the extent that they would enjoy if they were REALLY price-gouging us. When you consider how much those drugs cost, coupled with the demand, the CEOs would be much more wealthy if they were as corrupt as Michael Moore claims. Americans pay formidable sums for medicine because our companies produce the best and most innovative products in the entire world. Our only serious rival is Merck which is hurting from a few blunders like Vioxx and Zetia. Not surprisingly, liberals don't give credit to Wal Mart, despite their commendable efforts to provide reasonably-priced RX drugs to their customers (their savings are incredible).

Ultimately, affordable healthcare is not rocket science. Buy a reputable, high-deductible insurance policy, take care of yourself, save for a rainy day, and you'll probably be fine. In the rare event that such measures are not sufficient, private charity and possibly some ad hoc governmental assistance can fill the gaps. Don't fix what is not broken.

Marlbama
I'm disgusted that I have to pay for the consequences of B.O.'s slovenly smoking habit with MY money. The leader of the left cannot even set a good example.

I should have said, read and think

The Plumber Location: CO
Reply # 60
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 1:55 PM EST
Jim in CA
I did read your comment. Several times.

=======

Well maybe you have a wrench, a pipe cutter, a pipe threader, and a keyboard.

Well, being able to use three out of four ain't bad.

The cost of medical care is also a
result of our own personal choices. No one forces us to: Overeat, over drink alcoholic beverages, stuff ourselves with sweets and fast foods, sit in a chair all day and day after day,over salt our food, wear shoes which damage the toes or other articles of clothing that are restrictive to breathing well, leave our bodies dehydrated because we just can't stand plain water,and last but not least...smoke. I'm not even going to attempt to go into the crapola we do to our kids as it would fill two more columns.

It's the same da*n message...take responsibility. Yes there are diseases and conditions that have nothing to do with the above comments, but a great deal of the ones that are expensive in themselves and then go on to cause other systems to deteriorate start with our own choices. You weigh in at 300 pounds...fix it doc. Total ignorance supported by lack of discipline. When will we learn?

How to Fix the Healthcare System
Step 1: GET RID OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND RETURN TO THE ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION!

Step 2: Now, each state/community/city/individual (however the local citizenry elects to fashion their sovereign government) will be free to administer their health care however they see fit.

This system will allow for those who want to be subjects in a "single payer" fiefdom to do so. And those who want to live in a free market society will also be able to do so.

So, if the commies up in Seattle decide to have a single payer system, they are free to do so. And if we freedom lovers here in the South elect to remove government from the health care workflow entirely, we are free to do so.

If you don't care for the society in which you are living, you can then emigrate to a locale that suits you.

Then, and only then will the rancorous debate between the statists and the liberty lovers cease.

It's important to note that this is not a "left" & "right" argument; as both democrats & republicans alike WANT/CRAVE/NEED the government to provide for them and comfort them (it's only the process they disagree on).

Arguing over percentages & regulations is only addressing the symptom, not the cause; and consequently...A BIG FAT WASTE OF TIME.

State Health Care
If we have to provide free health care for everyone, then we have a right to dictate how people treat themselves. We cannot waste valuable resources for those who abuse their bodies or put themselves at risk. All of us will have to sacrifice for The Movement.

We will establish the Committee of Biological Composure with offices in all towns, villages, cities and counties to monitor the health of the people. Those that do not comply with party guidelines must correct themselves.

All fat slobs, smokers, drinkers, and drug users will be required to report to physical conditioning camps in the Dakotas for mandatory behavior modification. There they will undergo military style PT in strict isolation, removed from all vices and improper conduct and fed correct diets of natural foods they grow themselves. They will get healthy, or live in these camps forever.

Irresponsible persons who contract AIDS and other diseases of choice, will be quaranteened on remote islands so as not to endanger others. No longer will these groups who participate in immoral and perverse activities be allowed the cultural privileges and legal preferences that they current enjoy. Any acting up by these miscreants will result in their execution.

Citizens with life threatening pre-conditions must be sterilized so that they cannot conceive and burden the State.

Any that attempt to evade our party's lenient guidelines are enemies of the people. Consequently, they should be gassed and cremated.

Max
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php

Ron jones
The war is over – your side lost – Lincoln freed the slaves – Jeff Davis was caught and arrested – times have changed and no, you can’t go back. In 19 days a black man will be your president.

Nomo
You are, of course, free to hold your opinion. There will be contention over the matter of payment.

It is my job to care for MY family. Not yours.

I will not be held up by a gang of criminals and forced at gunpoint to pay for the care, feeding, education, healthcare or retirement of anyone not a member of my family.

Lazy, shiftless, arrogant losers with entitlement complexes, who opted for childbirth over education will get the life that they chose.

Legal?
I challenge anyone to show me in the Constitution where the Federal Government has the authority to mandate national health care, or to take 1 penny from us for Medicaid, Medicare, or any such creature. General Welfare? Nope, Congress can pass laws to get money for General Welfare, but not to institute it unless already given such as follows after General Welfare and Common Defence ( I like this spelling). So then, what we have here is theft. Any honest, careful reading of Article 1, section 8 shows how obvious this is to anyone who reads it . Mr. WIll instead of writing what is essentially an acquiescing article you should be decrying the constant criminality of those in power. Use the prominence you have been given as a nationally syndicated columnist for all that you can to confront those in power who are abusing it. Don't just an observer and commentator, rise up in excellence and be a great man in this nation.

Townhall rolling Leftward
I think they want to keep the Fox news interviews -- definitely becoming more liberal. Lack of character is showing. Still, that said, at least it is an outlet.

Malkin is superb. Keep her on Townhall.

RonJones
...the gang of criminals will be leaving in 19 days.

Nomo - On Jeff Davis
Funny you should mention Jeff Davis. Yes, he was arrested. However, he was quickly released.

The party in power knew that he'd be acquitted in any trial for treason. Turns out they knew that war to crush Southern independence was legally dubious at best (even among the dirty statists who could actually claim it with a straight face).

Why do I reference events that happened 144 years ago?...

BECAUSE IT'S COMING AGAIN!

RonJones
He was indicted for treason and released after two years in prison. What, exactly, is coming again?

Lets toss in some real life...
Social medicine..Free for all? Stupid idea at best. First off from the economy point of view, go ahead and throw out all the insurance companies. Guess what? The ENTIRE MARKET would plunge to zero overnight. Yes, they have that much money and power. Second and more obvious, you set doctor's on a set pay scale and the good doctors are gone! Yes, your family doctor DOES DESERVE the $250-400,000. a year! With all the rish today, bad drugs, lawsuits and etc. even a cool million a year is not enough. Social medicine is a pie in the sky dream and only an a$$ would try to make it real. If you think its so good then go ahead and push it but you are only digging your own grave. Possibly sooner than you think. Those of us with $$$ will still have access to the few doctors left who will do the best work and we will have no other chice but watch in horror as the rest suffer and die! Good Luck!

Coming again
We will not go quietly into a stalinist tyranny where we, the producers are expected to support the non producers, the lazy, the shiftless, those lacking in any sort of industry.

We will not continue to be defamed, degraded and defiled by communists/fascist/democrats/republicans who think that government reigns supreme.

We will not continue to allow you to steal food from the mouths of our children in order to subsidize the costs of your poor lifestyle choices.

What's coming you asked ignorantly... A third war for independence fought with real bullets by taxpayers who are tired of being raped by a government bent on empire and the welfare/warfare state.

When ballots are meaningless, the people will turn to bullets.

bravemonk
http://www.pnhp.org/

RonJones
Are you an anarchist?

REPLY: http://www.pnhp.org/
..Thank God I can afford to go to Switzerland for an operation if I need one!!!!!!!

Anarchist
Yes, my transformation from republican to anarchist began some years ago when I read "A Century of War" by John V. Denson

It was finally completed when President Bush ignored the existence of the constitution and committed billions & billions of taxpayers [worthless fiat] money to bail out the union commies at GM et al.

Along the way, I began to see why we ended up in the position we now find ourselves. And how the US constitution made it almost a foregone conclusion. A good reference can be found here:
http://mises.org/multimedia/mp3/audioarticles/2874_Hoppe.mp 3

bravemonk
Why Switzerland?

RonJones
Can’t say I agree with those views. How committed are you to the cause? Not sure what to call it even – frankly sounds nutty – you kidding maybe? Anarchy would be chaos wouldn't it?

Coming Again??
LOL @ those commenting here who claim that they will endeavor to join "forces" with other like-minded individuals to recreate another Civil War (part II) using their home popgun arsenal..

Again..LOL!!

Too funny!!

DDL
Don't refer to "those" who want another civil war. You are quoting ONE person on this board who claims to be an anarchist rather than a Republican. Your attempt to associate all of us with one fringe poster is pathetic. I, on the other hand, can fairly clump all of you looney leftists together. I would be very surprised, for example, if you disagreed with anything written by comrade nomo and his left-wing propaganda website.

It is people like you who are violence prone, or at best complacent towards criminal violence against the Right. Has you hangover worn off from the celebration following the burning of Palin's church? ALL left-wing posters on this site were happier about that criminal act than Obama's election.

The Conservatives do need to be ready for war, but not against you. We will have to take action against the Russians once you guys screw up and turn your backs towards them at the worst possible time. How about a wager? I'll bet that by the end of the Obama administration Soviet nukes will be stationed in either Cuba or, more likely, Venezuela. What say you?

comrade max
What is wrong with single payer health insurance?

http://www.pnhp.org/


nomo's PNHP site is hogwash
The usual propaganda at its finest. As always, they tout Norway, the wealthiest country in the world with only 4 million people, and desperately spin Canada's dismal experience in a positive light. These ideologues also fail to address my frequently stated concern that lazy people will lose their financial incentive to take care of themselves knowing that society's dwindling productive members will pick up the tab.

Lastly, these dense souls insist that chiropractic not be covered under socialized medicine. Seriously folks, can ANYONE give me an example of a successful back surgery in world history? Anyone? I'm listening, hello?

They also mandate that antioxidants not be covered, stating that they have been proven a dangerous alternative remedy. That may or may not be true, but the debate is FAR from resolved. Many alternative treatments are fraudulent, but that doesn't give these arrogant socialists the final say in what will and will not be allowed. Let the free market sort that out. When people pay most of their income in taxes (no, their stats on tax rates are not accurate), they are factually bound to only utilize the care that is deemed worthy by the government's arbitrary discretion.

Furthermore, nomo's inept article fails to mention that socialized medicine will destroy our pharmaceutical industry. I hope everyone is satisfied with the medicine available today. There will never again be a significant medical advancement once Obama socializes America.

The Underlying Problem
When employers in the early- to mid-70's (led by steel and auto pressured by the unions) began providing VERY low deductible and copay medical plans (not real INSURANCE per covering catastrophic events) they disconnected the medical consumer from the cost and pricing of medical care. Then physicians and hospitals were allowed to collude within their peer groups in price fixing. Viola' hyperinflation in medicine. But socialized medicine is not the solution, because it will produce uncapped demand which will only lead to a greater proportion of GDP being shifted to meet this unfettered demand. Notwithstanding the economic logic, this is the mess that the Dems seek to impose on the American people. God spare us from this BHO revival of FDRism. Voters should keep in mind the FDR-engineered Ponzi sheme known as Soc Sec. How's that working for us?

I know all of that but

Lenard Location: MD
Reply # 73
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 5:46 PM EST
Legal?
I challenge anyone to show me in the Constitution where the Federal Government has the authority to mandate national health care,

=========

Even as mean and nasty as I am, if a Liberal driver has hit a nice sweet Conserv walking down the street, when the Conserv gets to the hospital, I want him/her taken care of right away, without waiting to find out if his care will be paid for by someone.


Dr. Chaz
Excellent post.

Max,
47 million without health coverage – do the math – one in six without health insurance. How much more broken would you like our present system to be?

Dr chaz,
Social security is working very well. Millions have been saved from poverty because of it. Thankfully, the dems prevented Bush & co. from privatizing it 8 years ago. Or have you forgotten that great repub idea.

Keep an eye on mental health
Psychiatric diagnosis are ever-increasing-even when not warranted-especially among teens. I have lost count of the kids carelessly dignosed and "treated" for bipolar disorder, clinical depression, ADD/ADHD, etc... Often these diagnosis follow them into adulthood, and the reactions to medications over the years lead to yet more diagnosis and medication. Over the years I have heard from kids- now adults- who recovered from mental health system "treatment" and are doing well despite all the "help" during their younger years.

The cost of all of this in terms of medication, needless disability, and other health problems that arise due to over/incorrect medication are is astounding.

nomo: You don't get it! Few, if any,

actually cares a wit if Bozo is a back man or not!!! Get OVER IT!

What INTELLIGENT and INFORMED PEOPLE ACTUALLY CARE about is that this man just happens to be a Marxist-Communist and his Socialized health care plans are among the WORST of the many very bad ideas he has.

That's why!


America beheaded by Socialism/Comunism
Plus killing itself off, as the most abusive Empire the world has ever known from heretofore.

Yes, the likes of a final Tatanic voyage like, heading for the iceberg it built by itself for itselves, and now handing this locked in voyage to a fellow by the name of Barack Obama, who my sit on the wheel while hitting the iceberg.

For far too long has America enjoyed this ride while living on borrowed time, as the true national debt now stands at way over 53 trillion dollars and growing trillions a year more.

Yes, due to all the Socialistic/Communistic programs the very Federal Government kept imposing year after year, whil claiming to be the true unspoiled free-market in example to the whole world to imitate.

Yes, full disobedience to the Founding Fathers has now come to shed its fruit a hundred fold. These words form George Washington to in a way prove my comment: "No pecuniary consideration is more urgent, than the redemption and discharge of the public debt: on none can delay be more injurious or an economy of time more valuable.

So, America lets fasten our seatbelts a little tighter, for the ride ahead might be rougher than we wish.


Maximilian
"I'll bet that by the end of the Obama administration Soviet nukes will be stationed in either Cuba or, more likely, Venezuela. What say you?"

What about China?

Who is consorting with communism?

None other than the global conservative corporate capitalists.

As far as Russia putting nuke missiles in Cuba, where was the pro-war PNAC response to Cuba, instead of overthrowing Saddam in Iraq, when Fidel was less than 100 miles away?

Is it because there is no oil reserves under the ground, or was it because Cuba is/was no threat to Israel or Kuwait?

The US embargoes tiny communist Cuba, yet permits huge Communist China to economically devastate our country.




nomo #88: I cannot believe that you're

actually asking, "What is wrong with single payer health insurance?"

The myriad of real problems has been discussed and EXPLAINED, ad nauseam, endlessly, in detail.

If you don't get it by now, you're NEVER GOING TO GET IT!


Anne
Are you also an anarchist?

The ugly truth about socialized medicine
This is a moral issue, but not in the sense that liberals mean when they say it. It is wrong to steal from others. It does not matter whether you steal to give the loot to someone with less. It is wrong to steal.

People are already guaranteed life-saving emergency treatment in this country. But irrational people say that people should not be driven into bankruptcy just because they get a costly illness. YES, THEY SHOULD. Bankruptcy does not mean death in this country. It means bankruptcy. If you get an illness, you do not have the money to cover treatment, you do not have insurance to cover the costs of treatment, and you cannot procure enough charity to cover the costs, then you *should* go bankrupt. This is called causality, not injustice. It is simply irrational and evil to give people the means to make an end run around reality, especially when that "means" belongs to someone else.

But what the left TRULY wants here is not even free health care--what they want is redistribution of wealth in the context of the health care system. They want to be able to parasitize off others without being reminded of it or having the nature of it shown publicly.

At its ugly core, the issue of free health care is about preserving the self-esteem of parasites.

JD's Handsome SOn
Reply # 31
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 4:28 PM EST

That is more real than these lefty trolls might ever be willing to admit to. The costs would mandate it or something very close.

You lefties need to leave your Utopia mindset in DC after the gala event and coronation of your "leader". Your answers will bankrupt an already teetering economy. There is no free lunch. Despite what FDR, LBJ and BJ Clinton have led you to believe before "The Ones' we have been waiting for" sold you that same bill of goods. You guys will believe anything won't you? You are, simply put, fools.

nomo: WHAT? Am I also an anarchist?

What kind of stupid question is that???

And, "also" meaning am I an anarchist in addition to what?

You still hung over from a rough New Years Eve?


Wendy,
Who pays for those who don’t pay (bankrupt patient)??

Anne,
Sorry if I offended you. Reason I asked was another guy (RonJones) is and you seem to have similar ideas/comments to his. For some reason he has left the arena – maybe part of anarchist’s credo – never be organized or something.

And no, I am not hung over since I refrain from those types of activities. Alcohol should only be used in moderation, if at all, since it can be very detrimental to a healthy lifestyle.

Did you read my #5?


Anne Location: PA
Reply # 98
Date: Jan 1, 2009 - 9:51 PM EST

The myriad of real problems has been discussed and EXPLAINED, ad nauseam, endlessly, in detail.

=============
Did you read my #5? It is page 1 of a 5,000 page Government Document.

DDL
Nice diversion. I see you're worried that the Chinese are going to take over the world. I'm frankly a little more worried about the restored Soviet Union which is already taking steps. If you pinkos are worried about China, however, then you have at least two years to do anything you want about the matter. Tell B.O. to get going; morgen, morgen nur nicht heute. There are absolutely no excuses to be had.

nomo
Healthcare is a service, not a right. People who remain uninsured do so at their own peril. I personally use a high-deductible PPO plan, the costs are very reasonable and it allows me a few freebie doctor's visits per year to catch problems before they escalate. There's no excuse for not getting such coverage. Most of the people who claim they can't afford it, probably subscribe to cable TV, own cell phones, and hold a slew of expensive habits like drinking and smoking. Who is the last able-bodied American you've met who honestly could not make ends meet despite hard work and discipline? REAL poverty no longer exists here. Care solely for the severely disabled is not what is being proposed, so don't fall back on that ploy.

Concerning your statements about bankruptcies, I would prefer to keep the stigma attached to those who don't plan ahead, rather than encourage shortsightedness as a way of life. Bankruptcy reform is always worth considering as well, maybe four years down the road.

DDL, one more point
We haven't invaded Cuba since the Bay of Pigs fiasco because JFK made a deal with Kruschev not to take the island so long as the Soviets did not station missiles there. B.O., however, is no JFK in any respect. He will not take action if RasPutin places missiles in Cuba or Venezuela.

Some points to consider
Single-payer systems DO NOT equal socialized medicine. Doctors and hospitals will still compete with one another, just as they do now. Consumers will still be free to visit the healthcare provider of thieir choice. About 30% of healthcare costs go towards administration. A single-payer system will eliminate most of those. Those who feel they absolutely MUST pay that 30% premium will be free to support the insurance company of their choice. And to those who threaten revolution if the healthy are forced to pay for the sick, YOU ALREADY ARE. Much of the money insurance companies pay out in claims comes from people who don't get sick or injured. Otherwise companies would have to charge much, much more. Insurance is inherently socialist. Everyone puts a certain amount into a pool and withdraws it as they need it, and the bigger the pool the better. Why else would insurance company X advertise that their assets are larger than Y's? So why not one big pool? Per capita costs for healthcare administration for 2007 was $1,000, and one streamlined system would eliminate more than enough to cover those too poor to pay for coverage. There's no reason why healthcare should be reserved for the rich, and with our current system, that's exactly where we're headed.

Healthcare is not expensive if...
you are a member of the "special" groups. Really, the health care cost crisis is
soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo east to solve. Everyone just needs to become an over pampered, overpaid, over perked, over pensioned cop, teacher or lesser public parasite. Then whoever is left can pay for most or all of their health care until the day they thankfully drop dead.

Make a stand
I think that those of us who believe that it is morally wrong for government to forcibly confiscate private property (aka their income) must be loud in our dissent.

I believe that political correctness stops us from saying that it is shameful and pathetic for capable adults to feel entitled to someone else's property.

TO YOU LIBERALS: Why do YOU think it is acceptable for a fellow citizen to have their time and money (time IS money) confiscated so you can work less?

what's REALLY costing in healthcare
36 years ago I got into daily hands-on acute hospital patient care, a medical professional(doesn't matter which one). You know what's costing untold TENS OF $BILLIONS. The millions of old foreigners. They live here a few years, never hold a job, speak no english; and when, inevitably, they get sick, they're put into the system, and the only way out is w/ a toe tag. Their kids seldom make 'em a no code, and they end up on ventilators, dialysis, blood transfusions, vasopressors. They're in every level of medical care in this country, from Your local ER, to the countless old folks homes, sub-acutes & LTC's. Meanwhile is it 100 million Americans, born here, paying taxes, that have no medical care w/o being stripped of everything, bankrupt? So do You think the old foreingner's KIDS are paying for the ventilator? That's why We infinately generous Americans voted in Medicare, right? To take care of ALL of the worlds poor & oppressed?

Here in Houston
Our first baby of the New Year was born to illegals at a county hospital at the cost of the taxpayers. Happy New Year.

Who is paying

One of the problems with the current U.S. Healthcare system, crafted by Liberals, is working people who worked most of their lives and can't afford healthcare are paying healthcare costs for people who never worked a day in their lives. Its just unfair.


Response to #6 and some added facts
Counting the number of private MRI clinics is hardly reflective of the actual services available in Toronto. You fail to take into consideration radiology departments of hospitals with MRI.

There are over 20 hospitals listed in Toronto. A number of these hospitals will have MRI included within their radiology service, e.g., Hospital for Sick Children, St. Michael's, University of Toronto, et.al..

Currently, in the USA, 45% of the per capita cost of health care is provided through public funding (taxes). Over 20% of private funding for health care goes for administrative costs.

Heath care costs
We don't really have a free market in health care because we do not have market determined prices.
1. Force all providers and insurance companies to disclose all prices and bundle for the entire service.
2. As long as the provider is competent (board certification, licensing etc.), allow any provider to contract with an insururance company
3. Have providers submit bids for services on an internet market exchange that everyone can see!
4. The best quality indicators are the number of procedures performed or patients(with a specific condition) treated by an individual provider.

Large groups, hospital groups and private contracts inflate prices. Fixed price structures can be abused or be too low and result in rationing.

Exactly backwards
David: "We don't really have a free market in health care because we do not have market determined prices."

You have this precisely backwards. We do not have determined prices BECAUSE we don't have a free market. Any car company run like the Medicare driven market would quickly go out of business to a car company that treated the customer like the customer. Force will not get us out of this mess - getting out of the mess will get us out of the mess.

No competition the problem?
This sounds like government run cable services.
It has to be the only technological business that technological advances haven't brought down the price - gee, I wonder why.

The equipment program was a botched mess
Leavitt must not know much about competition if he thought that the medical equipment program would have increased it. The "program" was designed to end competition and would have assured an oligopy of large providers in place of thousands of small ones now in the business. If the prices are wrong then Leavitt has the power to fix them. CMS under Leavitt has butchered the only program that actually saves health care dollars! Granting "Franchises" to a few national companies is how we got in the airline mess we are now in. Do we really want our health care provided by a few "low bidders" supervised by CMS? We already have intense competion in the medical equipment retail business....what we need is CMS and Leavitt out of it. If CMS had done its job over the years there would have been no problem with pricing or fraud. Instead of firing the incompetents they want to punish the customers!


When "competition" isn't
Based on the inaccurate info Mr. Will received from Sec. Leavitt on his "tiny" bidding program, I'd suggest checking his sources more closely. "Repealed?" I wish that it were. Congress only delayed it for about a year. "Just 10 products?" That would be 10 product CATEGORIES encompassing thousands of products. "Providers...tenaciously oppose competition?" Au contraire. Medicare's idea of "competition" was to eliminate 80-90% of competitors from the marketplace. Durable medical equipment (DME) happens to be one of the most competitive sectors in all of health care. (It also accounts for less than 2% of the Medicare budget and has seen price increases far below the average for healthcare in general.) Rather than being designed to introduce competition, Leavitt's "tiny program" did the exact opposite. DME providers tenaciously fought to PRESERVE competition and to stop the Medicare bureaucracy from consolidating market share into the hands of a few. Mr. Will is right that the Medicare program needs serious help if it is to survive. An introduction of market forces may well be part of the solution, but this misbegotten program should serve as an example of how NOT to proceed.

Competition, Greed, & Medicare
A health insurance agents perspective: Competition needs to be at the end-user level. The public needs a website to compare the firm costs of services and products, and allow a free market to regulate itself. This works very well in the complex Medicare world (go to http://www.medicare.gov). Our government bureaucracy created that website as an ironically efficient tool to compare costs of drug plans, as well as health plans, and RATE the providing companies. It allows consumers to choose what is 'best' for them. That format could be used for a national healthcare system. Why is an insurance salesman advocating a national system? Because greed and fraud are out of control at every level - consumers lie about their health; doctors, hospitals, and clinics lie about services rendered; insurance companies are top-heavy with useless management, withhold valid coverage from their subscribers, and valid reimbursements from providers..I could go on with more 1st hand experience. But, the point is, ethics are gone. You cannot control morality by legislation. Competition can. Medicare WILL have to be funded by increased taxes. There are no alternatives, because whether you balance the books at a national level, or an individual level, the money has to go from the 'haves' to the 'have nots'. Our U.S. government is to provide for the welfare of U.S. citizens. It's in the Constitution (if that's still operating).

Single-payer systems sounds good to me!!
I am 58, single, and retired. I worked for a large company for 30 years. I retired at 55 to take care of my 90-year-old father. I am in excellent Health; knock on wood; and never needed in/out patient hospital care. When I was employed, my company paid for most of my health Benefits, where I paid approx. $100.00/month. unbeknown to me and management the company switched the benefit’s plan for all retires to a Future Health Account(FHA) $40,000. The FHA is not a portable account, and can only be applied to premiums covered by the companys retiree health benefits coverage, which is currently $750.00/month. To cover my portion the company takes $400.00 from my pension each month. If health care costs keep going up the money in the health account will obviously run out before I am eligible for Medicare. In just three years I had to pay an additional $300.00 for my health benefits coverage. At this rate if government do not step in I will end up spending over half of my pension for health care. My 401k maybe worthless by the time I reach 59 ½. I own a cute little house, my morgage is all paid for, but If something isn't done soon to revive the economy I'm not looking forward as to what the future might bring.
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