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Tuesday, December 23, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
When a Woman Isn't in the Mood: Part I
by Dennis Prager
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Given our preoccupation with politics and economics, it is easy to forget that for most of us micro issues still play a greater role in our lives. So here are some thoughts that, as heretical as they might sound, have been found extremely helpful, sometimes even marriage-saving, from listeners to my radio show, which features a “male-female hour” every week.

The subject is one of the most common problems that besets marriages: the wife who is “not in the mood” and the consequently frustrated and hurt husband.

There are marriages with the opposite problem — a wife who is frustrated and hurt because her husband is rarely in the mood. But, as important and as destructive as that problem is, it has different causes and different solutions, and is therefore not addressed here. What is addressed is the far more common problem of “He wants, she doesn't want.”

It is an axiom of contemporary marital life that if a wife is not in the mood, she need not have sex with her husband. Here are some arguments why a woman who loves her husband might want to rethink this axiom.

First, women need to recognize how a man understands a wife's refusal to have sex with him: A husband knows that his wife loves him first and foremost by her willingness to give her body to him. This is rarely the case for women. Few women know their husband loves them because he gives her his body (the idea sounds almost funny). This is, therefore, usually a revelation to a woman. Many women think men's natures are similar to theirs, and this is so different from a woman's nature, that few women know this about men unless told about it.

This is a major reason many husbands clam up. A man whose wife frequently denies him sex will first be hurt, then sad, then angry, then quiet. And most men will never tell their wives why they have become quiet and distant. They are afraid to tell their wives. They are often made to feel ashamed of their male sexual nature, and they are humiliated (indeed emasculated) by feeling that they are reduced to having to beg for sex.

When first told this about men, women generally react in one or more of five ways:

1. You have to be kidding. That certainly isn't my way of knowing if he loves me. There have to be deeper ways than sex for me to show my husband that I love him.

2. If this is true, men really are animals.

3. Not my man. He knows I love him by the kind and loving way I treat him.

4. You have it backwards. If he truly loved me, he wouldn't expect sex when I'm not in the mood.

5. I know this and that's why I rarely say no to sex.

Let's deal with each of these responses.

1. You have to be kidding. …

The most common female reaction to hearing about men's sexual nature is incredulity, often followed by denial. These are entirely understandable reactions given how profoundly different — and how seemingly more primitive — men's sexual nature is compared to women's.

Incredulity is certainly the reaction most women have when first being told that a man knows he is loved when his wife gives him her body. The idea that the man she is married to, let alone a man whose intelligence she respects, will to any serious extent measure her love of him by such a carnal yardstick strikes many women as absurd and even objectionable.

But the question that should matter to a woman who loves her man is not whether this proposition speaks poorly or well of male nature. It is whether it is true. And it is true beyond anything she can imagine. A woman who often deprives her husband of her body is guaranteed to injure him and to injure the marriage — no matter what her female friends say, no matter what a sympathetic therapist says, and no matter what her man says.

(Very few men will confess to the amount of hurt and eventual anger they experience when repeatedly denied sex).

Of course, there are times when a man must simply refrain from initiating sex out of concern for his wife's physical or emotional condition. And then there are men for whom sex rarely has anything to do with making love or whose frequency of demands are excessive. (What “excessive” means ought to be determined by the couple before the refusals begin, or continue.) But the fact remains: Your man knows you love him by your willingness to give him your body.

2. If this is true, men really are animals.

Correct. Compared to most women's sexual nature, men's sexual nature is far closer to that of animals. So what? That is the way he is made. Blame God and nature. Telling your husband to control it is a fine idea. But he already does. Every man who is sexually faithful to his wife already engages in daily heroic self-control. He has married knowing he will have to deny his sexual nature's desire for variety for the rest of his life. To ask that he also regularly deny himself sex with the one woman in the world with whom he is permitted sex is asking far too much. Deny him enough times and he may try to fill this need with another woman. If he is too moral to ever do that, he will match your sexual withdrawal with emotional and other forms of withdrawal.

3. Not my man.

Many women will argue, understandably, “My husband knows I love him. He doesn't need me to have sex with him to know that. And this is especially so when I'm too tired or just don't want sex. Anyway, my man only enjoys sex with me when I'm into it, too.”

The importance of mutual kindness to a marriage is impossible to overstate. But while necessary, it is not sufficient. Women can understand this by applying the same rule to men. Most women will readily acknowledge that it is certainly not enough for a man to be kind to her. If it were, women would rarely reject kind men as husband material. But as much as a woman wants a kind man, she wants more than that. If a man is, let us say, lacking in ambition or just doesn't want to work hard, few women will love him no matter how kind he is. In fact, most women would happily give up some kindness for hard work and ambition. A kind man with little ambition is not masculine, therefore not desirable to most women.

Likewise, a kind woman who is not sexual with her husband is not feminine. She is a kind roommate.

Furthermore, a woman who denies the man she loves sex is not kind.

4. You have it backward.

Every rational and decent man knows there are times when he should not initiate sex. In a marriage of good communication, a man would either know when those times are or his wife would tell him (and she needs to — women should not expect men to read their minds. He is her man, not her mother.)

But, to repeat the key point, rejection of sex should happen infrequently. And it should almost never be dependent on mood — see Part II next week.

5. I know this and that's why I rarely say no to my husband.

This is a wise woman. She knows a sexually fulfilled husband is a happy husband. (At the same time, men need to recognize that complete sexual fulfillment is unattainable in this world.) And because a happy husband loves his wife more, this cycle of love produces a happy home.

In Part II, I will explain in detail why mood should play little or no role in a woman's determining whether she has sex with her husband.

I conclude Part I with this clarification: Everything written here applies under two conditions: 1. The woman is married to a good man. 2. She wants him to be a happy husband. If either condition is not present, nothing written here matters. But if you are a woman who loves your husband, what is written here can be the most important thing you will read concerning your marriage. Because chances are the man you love won't tell you.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Great Column
Women may denounce this column, but I completely agree and have practiced number five for sixteen years. My husband and I have an ever-growing unconditional love for each other marked by transparency and security that I appreciate comes in part by the respect he receives through intimacy that is not limited to 'when I am in the mood.' As a man he definitely has a stronger sex-drive than I do but a wise and godly woman told me early in our marriage. "If a man always has to beg and humiliate himself every time he wants a drink of water he will be constantly thirsty, if he knows that there is a cool pitcher waiting for him anytime he wants it, he will think of it less often."

His Needs Her Needs by Willard Harley and For Women Only by Shaunti Feldman have are excellent resources in this department and well as the Bible specifically Ephesians and 1 Corinthians 7

Men really are animals
Yes, Dennis, we men really are animals! The default behavior of unsocialized males, who haven't been civilized, can be observed in any biker bar, group of gangbangers, or high school classroom.

As a group, women don't have the faintest clue about the power of male sex instincts. Mothers over the eons have claimed THEIR thirteen year-old boy isn't interested in sex yet. Statements such as this have been a continuous source of humor to men, since Ugh.

Sex in marriage
I am a 68 year old woman and i absolutely agree that having sex for the man is very important. Being at this age im probably never in the mood, but i don't let him know that because i feel it is very important for the man's well being. If you notice after you have sex with your husband (a good husband)that day he is whistling, etc. Proof enough!

Candyce
I absolutely agree!
For men, sex is the apex of the relationship. If they are getting that regularly, why go the extra step in committment? Why buy the ring, the house, the minivan, and provide for the family?

Hmmm...maybe that's why waiting to have sex until marriage is a good idea?

hmm
You gotta give it up!

My wife of 42 Years

My wife and I were watching some TV show where an 'Expert' said men think about sex at least once every 5 minutes.

My wife asked "Is that true?"

I said "He is probably underestimating us".

Marriage is all about being friends, working together, raising a family, building a future together and being there for each other 'No matter what trials and pain we suffer'.

Sex is the reward for that faithfulness.

James
I would have to agree. The old saying about the cow and milk comes to mind.

I think sometimes both parties forget love is not about me and my feelings. The abuse of indifference is a very damaging trap easy to fall into. It's been my observation that couples who are self sacrificial on both sides can endure all hades (hope this is not an unacceptable word) and life can throw at them.

Candyce
This is not at all the "if you really loved me" crap that boys tried in high school. He is talking about married men and women in a committed relationship in which the man is faithful and provides for his wife and their kids. In this situation, the wife is getting everything that she needs but is selfishly denying her faithful husband something that he needs when she is the only person on the planet that can provide it. Don't you get it? It is not just about the physical act but the closeness, the joining of two into one, the emotional aspect, the feeling of being wanted and being desired-that is what the man craves. A man will eventually find another woman to give him self-validation if his wife (the one he works and provides for) will not. Or he will become bitter and morose-then the wife will have just one more thing to complain about. BTW-what would you say about a woman married to a man with a high six-figure income, completely faithful, generous, does housework, takes equal care of the kids (even in the middle of the night) but gives nothing in return?

CVN
You are so right. I am the first to agree that the wife truly is the one who establishes the atmosphere of the home. Even so, when things go wrong it doesn't happen in a vacuum; the husband who has a strong work ethic still has a responsibility to be careful that he doesn't neglect his wife. Women can and should fly with their own wings and not be clinging vines without outside interests. That is a far different matter than flying alone, however, and men do need to realize this.

As G Liddy once advised husbands, "You must attend".

Candyce and James
Please reread the column as many times as it takes for you to understand what Mr. Prager is saying, then feel free to comment. What you are both saying at this point has absolutely nothing to do with the premise of the column.

BINGO!

Dennis hit the nail on the head. And so did John Paul II in “Theology of the Body.” We were designed in a certain way and the way we were designed means something.

If more people realized, accepted, and admitted the very simple truth that men and women are different, there would be far happier marriages.

Different doesn’t have to mean “better” or “worse”, “good” or “bad.” It simply means different. We should learn to appreciate and accept each other’s differences.

God had a purpose in His design, even if our limited human minds are incapable of understanding it all.

Want to be a good wife? A good husband? All you have to do is follow one simple rule -- Give yourself entirely to the other. Works every time!

CVN65
What would I say about "a woman married to a man with a high six-figure income, completely faithful, generous, does housework, takes equal care of the kids (even in the middle of the night) but gives nothing in return?"

A. I would sooner believe in mermaids and unicorns.
B. That is one foolish husband.
C. Exactly how long should it take before he becomes a bitter and morose philanderer seeking self validation?

Hmm
Makes one wonder if it is worth it. We women are now providing at least half the financial support for the family while still fulfilling our traditional roles of having a family - child rearing, cooking cleaning, yard work, etc. Even though women's responsibilities have increased, men tend to want to still play with their boats and toys, as well as hunting and fishing. Oh yeah, and their contribution to the child rearing is to teach the boys how to play with boats, toys, hunt and fish. On top of that, they need to have our love proven by providing them with sex too?

gd
Women are only "providing half the financial support for the family" because any man who insists on being the sole provider is labeled a sexist, misogynistic, bigot who simply wants to oppress women--starting with his wife. No man in his right mind is going to subject himself to that kind of scorn willingly. Women wanted to be independent and free, but still enter into a relationship like marriage where dependency is a fundamental part. In point of fact: they want to have their cake and eat it too. As far as teaching boys to be men: what would you have them do? Teach them to act like women?

As usual
Prager says something which he expects to be taken as true because he says it. Notice the part where he says that he is right despite what doctors, teachers and therapists say. Yet he gives no proof for his assertion that men know their wives love them because of their willingness to have sex.
This is typical Prager. Simple, authoritarian solutions for complicated problems. Don't ask why, just trust him to run your life for you.

AMEN!
Additionally, when a woman pro-actively GIVES the gift of sex to her husband she is often rewarded with a particular intensity -- because its hard-wired into women to take joy in the act of giving.


Candyce
I have given my wife support done more than half (at times the majority) of house work, cooking, child care, etc. And what did I get apparently what you think I should REJECTION, NO affection verbal or physical of any kind including very little and low quality sex. She must be your kind of woman ad this must be your kind of marriage.
after almost 2 decades of working very hard at making this marriage work, (usually singlehandedly), being faithful and all that list.
She will be getting her divorce as soon as a couple of things work out. It took me almost 20 years of Hades to finally give up hope.
IF you are this kind of "wife" please do not put your husband though everything I have suffered through in the name of "love".
If however, you want a happy, fulfilled, loving marriage read this article again and again till you get it. You will have a better, more loving, and devoted husband.

Mother of 4
What is your basis for claiming that "it is hard-wired into women to take joy in the act of giving"? This is a very controversial statement, so I hope you can explain what gives you the right to present it as if it were a fact.

Some Advice From My Experience,
As a VERY happily married woman -- who didn't get 4 kids out of the cabbage patch -- let me offer some advice for both partners.

Men,

Its hard to get anything out when you didn't put anything in. Just as many women don't understand that their rejection of their husbands' sexual advances is rejection of their love many men don't understand that a woman will feel unloved if her man doesn't demonstrate his affection throughout the day.

Foreplay doesn't start after you're in the bedroom with your clothes off. It starts the moment you wake up in the morning. Waiting until after the bedroom door is closed for the night is like not putting in the first string quarterback until the 2-minute warning in the 4th quarter.

You don't need roses, jewelry, and a dinner out. Email her a particularly funny LOLcat or a picture of a place that you've been together. Leave a sticky note on her steering wheel. Buy her favorite candy bar at the convenience store where you got gas. Take the kids off her hands for 15 minutes after you get home so she can have a little peace.

Early in the day mention that you'd like to make love that day. While a surprise now and then is nice, women's lack of instant response is often as simple as the fact that we haven't thought about having sex. You guys always have sex on the brain ;) but women, especially when we have kids to care for, are likely to get focused on our daily responsibilities. Its often not that we don't WANT to have sex. Its frequently that it simply hadn't crossed our mind.

Try telling your wife early in the day (or at least as soon as you're home from work), that she looks so great in what she's wearing that you can't wait to get it off of her.

Assuming that you have, over the years, learned to please each other that will give her something to look forward to. Anticipation improves the experience. :D

Thanks Dennis
Forty years too late.

Seth
First of all, I did not write about my "philosophy of marriage." I was talking about genetically based, instinctive drives of male and female humans. Males want unlimited sexual access. Females want to belong to a male. (Insert Gaussian curves here.) Our species has been exceedingly successful because of it.

You are certainly right that we are not always worth the effort. Are you always the kind of man with whom a woman would want to share her bed?

Listen ladies
the problem discussed here is the phenomenon that a clean, hard-working, straight-shooting man has to beg for the thing that he has sworn to forsake from all others by women who do not have the wisdom to realize that the price that they are paying for holding out for perfect sex is a truly like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Long sentence. Very poor choice sisters.

Look over There
Often the truth about one issue is revealed when focusing on another issue. This column and comments show us clearly where the roots of our hyper-consumerism culture lies. It isn’t men who are culpable. We men seek our fulfillment in the very “green” act of sex. Consumerism is in the bailiwick of women who seek their fulfillment in what a “hard working,” “good man” can give her; the minivan; 3000 sqft home; gadgets; clothes; baubles and most of all financial security (more money and resources than one actually needs).

Mother Earth thanks you ladies.

Always in the Mood
My husband and I have been married for 41 years and he has always been able to put me "in the mood". I may not think I am but he somehow can tease me, make me laugh, and before you know it I am more than in the mood. And after 41 years I can tell you that I still feel like I am on my honeymoon. A wife needs to be cajoled sometimes, but she also has to remember to allow herself to be cajoled.

The solution to this problem was written
almost 2000 years ago. Wives are to submit to their husbands, and husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her. Husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies. It is also written that wives don't have authority over their own bodies, their husbands do, and vice versa.

Problem solved.

Yet people will continue to ignore this to their own detriment. Selfishness reigns supreme.

Furthermore,
Furthermore, Ladies,

NEVER talk down your husband. To enlarge upon your husband's foibles and follies to your friends and family is to show him the same sort of damaging disrespect that he would be showing you if he were whistling at other women in the street and flirting with them in front of your face.

The bumbling, incompetent barbarian of the sitcom stereotypes may be good for a cheap laugh, but he's the least sexually arousing male figure conceivable. If you spend your time bitching about your man you undermine your ability to respond to him. No woman wants to go to bed with a jerk.

But if you praise his good points in public and focus on how much you respect his virtues you'll set yourself up to want to take that good man into the bedroom and offer him the gift of your most intimate love.

Finally, for both of you,

Take an active and pro-active interest in each other's interests. While it is unlikely that you will be enthusiastic about ALL of each others' hobbies make a determined effort to learn enough about them to hold an intelligent conversation (I spent an entire summer trying to learn to like baseball one year and my husband has made valiant efforts to understand enough about sewing to grasp what I'm doing).

And when you find something you BOTH enjoy -- for us its shooting, home improvement projects, football, and role-playing games -- do whatever it takes to make sure you engage in those activities frequently. Nothing sets up for a good night in bed like a good day spent doing something you enjoy together. :)

WHO WOULDA THUNK IT

.....GEE PRAGER! ...

.....Men and woman are different ...thanks for the clue ...

.....If a man can't or isn't willing to get his mate in the mood then he doesn't deserve sex and if he takes it anyway ...then he is a selfish cad .....COLOSSUS

CVN65,
Beautifully put!

Marriage isn't 50-50, its 60-40.

The trick is that you BOTH give the 60. ;-)

Couples who try that, sincerely with all their heart, find an overflowing abundance of love and joy.

Primavolta,
My statement is not the least bit controversial. Before society, in the words of Thomas Sowell, "replaced what worked with what sounded good," it was universally understood and acknowleged.

Women are hard-wired to take joy in giving because otherwise no child would ever make it to adulthood.

Of course you don't grasp that. Your choice to deny your womanly nature by murdering your unborn child hardened your heart and scarred your soul in the very place where the feminine joy in giving is most strongly expressed.

God have mercy on your husband because your comments make it clear that you never will.

In response to gd
Yep, keep blaming men. Thats the way to a happier marriage.

Men didn't ASK women to provide financial support while trying to juggle a family and a home. It was WOMEN who asked women to be everything and do everything and never ever feel overwhelmed.

Really, do you need the extra income, or is the lifestyle just too hard to give up? Do you really do everything all by yourself while your husband plays with his toys because he's too lazy to help? Or is he palying with toys because YOU can't just admit that you need help and that you can't do it all, so you get mad whenever he tries to help or you criticize him for not doing everything you ask as perfectly as you would have done it? Typically, a good husband will try to help, and if that is too demeaning for you he'll support you in hiring someone who you'll let help you. Unless you are too proud to accept that, too. I'd give up, too, if I were him.

If you want to blame someone for increasing your responsibilities, look no further than yourself and your feminist friends. It was you and them who turned men into nothing but sex toys- but only when you are in the mood, of course.

Marriage isn't about two people performing their responsibilities well. Marriage is about two people loving each other and serving each other. If you are serving him nothing but humiliation and scorn, don't expect him to hang around looking for ways to serve you happiness and help.

Tedmug,
Nicely summed up.

Except in the case where one partner (or both), are natural jerks, marriage failures are due to either a lack of understanding of how the sexes are hard-wired or a selfish denial of those differences one the part of one or both partners.

As studies originally set up by those looking to prove the sexes are alike keep proving, Biology Is Real.

Estrogen and Testosterone affect the development of the brain in characteristic ways and that affects behavior.

Mother of 4
I wonder if you could be MY mother! LOL! Seriously, I learned everything about a loving marriage from my parents and my mother has shared with me some of the same things you are saying.

My husband and I are "day and night" - he likes it first thing in the morning when I'm like a zombie, and I'm ready at night when he's ready for sleep. We've had the "sex" conversation several times during our 9 year marriage. I finally had to realize that sometimes he needs the physical part (and even the connection) as Prager said and he finally realized that so do I. So we work on "giving" of ourselves from time to time even when we are not "in the mood". I mean, I'll almost never be in the mood at 5 am, no matter what. Not even for Brad Pitt! LOL! But I know that he needs some lovin', so why not give in a little. I'll catch him later! ;) Same for him. We "meet up" before he starts getting sleepy. He's certainly no night owl!

The most important thing about this article and what some of you have said is this: constant communication with your spouse about your needs, constant compromise in order to live in a peaceful and orderly house. You are a TEAM and we all know there are no "i's" in TEAM.

If you feel that men are just "sex fiends" and nothing more, then don't bother getting married. Be a virgin spinster and be done with it. Men have different sex drives than women. Deal with it.

As Mother of 4 so wonderfully pointed out - we don't think about sex all day long like most men do. So men have to learn to get us "in the mood" and more than just the foreplay. And women, I've heard we can help ourselves by trying to think about it every so often as well. I find that helps! ;)

It's a give and take and if you're not doing that in your relationship, you will be MISERABLE.

Glitchy Today,
One of my posts vanished in the repeated glitches.

Mentally insert the coming post, "And Ladies, ..." before the "Furthermore" post. :-)

Mother of 4
Thomas Sowell does not know what life was like "before society" any more than you do.
Your claim that women are "hard-wired to take joy in giving" amounts to a denial of moral choice for them. It sounds like you are saying that men choose to do the right thing, but women (unless they are fallen like me) are programmed to be sweet. I guess I'd rather be everything you say I am if it means I get to choose my actions.

Isnt in the Mood?
Nothing new here but it's as complete and succinct as I've seen it. I'll add that marriage is not a natural state but a necessary social contract.

The feminist agenda has done more harm to society than can be imagined. Take, for example, their ridiculous influence on the family courts and the pervasive industry surrounding it. Their ham-handedness in this area has done irreversible damage to families across the Nation both financially and emotionally, caused more acrimony due to disparities in the rulings between the parties that are wrongly skewed heavily in favor of the female gender, and harmed more children’s lives than you can shake a stick at. The family unit is the bedrock of society. You tinker with that and you face a major, unnatural disintegration of society into something very ugly indeed. You see the effects around you all the time: Kids dropping out of school, kids not having a real purpose in life (rudderless), and increased crime and angst. Creating this amount of discord without seeing the long-term ramification is the hallmark of feminism.
I must add that men contribute to the problem. Men must regain their backbones and stand up to what is right and proper. Of course, the feminist agenda includes brainwashing boys into pathetic wimps and girls into “wonder women”. This also has serious consequences to society.

Mother of 4 could just as well
have the handle of "Wife Of One". Bravo to you, maam! I, for one, would love to see you have your own column here on TH and focus on relationships. I'm confident that you could share some wonderful insights on parenting as well.

Tata Plum, your husband is truly a blessed man. While storing up treasures in heaven, I'm confident that you have received some earthly rewards as well.

The best Biblical admonition on sex in marriage can be found in 1 Corinthians 7. Starting in verse 3 through 5:

"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control"
I have never been one who enjoys the "quickie"

This, simply put, is the "golden rule" of sex in marriage. Live it. Love it. Reap the benefits!!

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Show Him You Love Him!
Women need to stop expecting men to think and behave as they do. Men have different needs. A woman shouldn't wait until the mood hits to make love to her husband. When wives withhold sex from their husbands, they do not feel loved. A woman needs to love her man the way he needs to be loved. Don't wait until the mood hits to do it. But, a man needs to make sure his woman feels loved too. Men need to be good to their wives. They need to tell them they love them, and let them know they find them beautiful.

And Ladies, part 1
Don't wear yourself out! If you're overworked and find yourself mentally, physically, and spiritually drained by outside commitments you'll have nothing available for the most important person in your life.

You CAN'T have/do it all and you don't even have to try.

Turn your primary focus on your marriage and your family to ensure that this most important aspect of your life gets the best you have in you. If you relegate your husband an afterthought you WILL lose him emotionally.

If that means a career change to a less demanding field or putting your career on hold until your children are grown so be it. Its the same for women as it is for men -- no one ever says on their deathbed, "I wish I'd spent more time at the office."

...

And Ladies, Part 2
...

Don't slob around in sweats with bad hair and ruined make-up. Its entirely possible to dress both comfortably AND attractively at the same time. If you know that you look put-together and attractive you will feel confident AND sexy.

Marilyn Monroe would neither feel good nor look sexy in the shapeless, men's sweats that she wore to paint the living room and bathe the dog with her hair greasy from night sweats and stiff with yesterday's hair spray. Your family, especially your husband, deserve to see you at your best and YOU deserve to know that you look good.

Weight is NOT an excuse. Even the most grossly obese woman can wear clean, unstained, well-coordinated clothes that make the best of her best points while tactfully skimming over the rest.

Heavy women can try this experiment. Buy a good, SUPPORTIVE bra (a good bra takes off 10-20 lbs). Put on a low-cut shirt, stand with your back to a table or dresser of a suitable height, and call your husband. As he approaches support your hands on the table, lean back, and smile into his eyes.

If nothing happens for either of you then you probably both need to see a doctor. ;-)

If you're flat-chested but have great ankles vary the details of clothing and position to suit your figure.

Mother of 4
You are a wise woman indeed. Thank you and tell your husband he is a lucky man (but I'm sure he already knows that fact very well)

Primavolta,
Your strident protests only make it more clear that I'm speaking the truth.

"You're not the boss of me!" is the cry of the selfish and immature.

Choosing to do wrong in order to show the world that you accept no authority, not even the laws of nature, is both profoundly silly and a guarantee of misery for you and all about you.

If selfish people ruined only their own lives it would serve them right and the rest of the world could ignore them in peace. Unfortunately, that sort of me first, last, always, and only attitude is as destructive to bystanders as it would be to drive a tank through a shopping mall.

Icedog,
Thanks.

My DH certainly knows how often he "gets lucky". ;)

We're blessed with a true partnership. But it didn't happen by accident. We'll be celebrating our 20th anniversary this spring and its been 20 years of ups and downs and hard work.

But infinitely worth all the effort.

HappyHolidays!
Those who claim that Biblical submission of a wife to her husband and the husband's position as the head of the household creates a master-servant relationship are deeply confused.

I am not and have never been in the military, but the only possibly analogous relationship I can think of is that between a commissioned officer and his sergeant.

Marriage is a partnership and no form of exploitation enters into it. Both partners must give to each other with sacrificial love and devote their energy to the well-being of the relationship. To even begin to worry about power balances and determining percentages of equality is to deny the fundamental nature of the relationship.

My husband respects my brain as I respect his character. He has a vision for our LIFE in capital letter terms in all the sweep of years and accomplishments that lie ahead of us. I have my hands on the details of daily life that must go on regardless of what else is happening. There is mutual love, mutual trust, mutual effort put towards our mutual future.

Many times my husband's decision as head of the household is that I should make a particular decision. But when he decided last year that in his carefully considered and well-thought-through opinion the company he worked for was likely to go under and that our best option was for him to form a partnership in a business of our own I owed him the support of believing that his decision was indeed carefully considered and that he had the welfare of our family firmly in mind when he made it.

Both the submission of a wife and the authority of a husband require trust and commitment -- the trust that the other partner has your best welfare as his/her primary goal and the commitment to put the family above selfish indulgence of personal desires

Primavolta, innate yearnings,
while generally true are not universally factual. There are always, I mean ALWAYS, exceptions to EVERY rule. But for you to believe that you alone choose what you do is extremely naive.

The following quote from William Butler Yeats may help:
"Our thoughts and emotions are often but spray flung up from hidden tides that follow a moon no eye can see."

There are many things that have happened in your life that you can't consciously recall yet they still have strong ramifications on you and the choices you make. No one is as independant as they think they are.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Frog
I never said that I alone choose what I do. But I maintain that the fact that I am a woman has no effect on whatever freedom of choice I do have.

Mother of 4
So when you do right by your children, that is not because of a conscious decision you made, it is just because of your programming. Is that what you are saying?

FROG,
Thank you very much.

A Good Read
A Day in the Life of an Ambulance Driver is not a blog for everyone, but the posts where AD honestly lays out the sequence of events and personal flaws in both partners that led to his divorce is painful, insightful, saddening, and hopeful -- hopeful in that his willingness to lay his soul open that way might help others avoid those same mistakes.

Note the role that having ceased making love played.

http://ambulancedriverfiles.blogspot.com/search?q=divorce

Erin
I find your response annoying. You use the word "women" like all women deserve to get what some women demanded. I have no idea if you are male or female because the name you are using is ambidextrous. Women are not one amorphous mass.





What?
What is this column doing on a political site and what are Mr. Prager's qualifications to be giving advice on this issue?

Mother of 4
I am glad for your family that you've found a workable system for survival. I know many people live as you do and are happy that way. But what makes your way THE WAY? I know all kinds of people who have figured out a variety of different solutions to the problem of how to be happy while fulfilling their commitments. Assuming that there are a number of workable solution, what makes your so superior?

Primavolta,
You are being deliberately obtuse.

As free-willed, sentient human beings we humans can always CHOOSE our actions. We may choose to act in accordance with nature or we may choose to act against nature.

Choosing to act against nature -- God's plan/proven tradition/the FACTS of human biology -- is foolishness and a path to misery.

And choosing to act against nature for no better reason than selfish immaturity and the adolescent desire to thumb one's nose at authority proves nothing except the fact that whatever years a person's body has attained that person's mind has never progressed beyond 8th grade.

Both individual people and society as a whole are far better off when people grow up and ACT LIKE ADULTS instead of clinging to the perpetual adolescence of the spoiled brat who is a jerk to everyone around him/her in the pursuit of his/her personal pleasures without any thought of duty, responsibility, or the welfare of other people.

This column is about the proper behavior of couples who mean well by each other and who want their marriage to succeed. Not about spoiled brats who want to be made happy and who don't particularly care if that "happiness" is achieved by hurting or ignoring others.

Proper view of sexuality…

‘…to avoid fornication, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control’ [1 Corinthians 7:2-5].


Marriage provides for the legitimate expression of human sexuality. Our bodies are not our own, but they belong to our spouse for their benefit. We are to consider the other more important than ourselves. We should know our weaknesses that are common to man and understand the wiles of the evil one.

HappyHolidays!,
You've got that wrong again.

I actually wrote that particular piece neary a year ago in response to a similar column and was told by people who did have military experience that I was right on about that relationship.

I'll continue with another selection I wrote in response to someone who reasoned as you do. It's long, so it will take several posts (which could be fun as glitchy as this site is today).

"Unfortunately, I have noticed many times that it is difficult, approaching impossible, to explain the reciprocal and mutual nature of the marital bond to those who have been brainwashed either with the idea that male dominance means authoritarian abuse or, conversely, the idea that any recognition of authority is enslavement.

Geekier sorts may grasp this example from Star Trek's original series and the book and movie extensions thereof:

Spock, McCoy, and the rest of the officers were in no way unequal to Kirk as a matter of human rights. As time progressed Spock, Sulu, and others could have had commands of their own. Yet they deliberately chose to submit themselves to Kirk. This did not diminish their human worth but enhanced the whole which became greater than the sum of the individual parts.
...


HH -- Christian Submission, cont.
...

"In his turn Kirk submitted to the authority of Starfleet Command and of the highest moral laws that are above all merely human authority and submitted himself, in the manner of the greatest leaders, to the welfare of his people -- even unto the point of being willing to lay down his life for their sake.

The marriage relationship, as God intends it to be, likewise consists of a woman willingly submitting to her husband's authority and dedicating her efforts to the welfare of the marriage and a man submitted to God and dedicated to the welfare of his wife and to their joint mission.

The failure of either party to keep their focus on the other's welfare and on the welfare of the family as a whole will destroy the marriage. But when both are willing to deny selfish impulse and yield themselves to the welfare of the marriage than 1+1=5, or 500, or 5000 even.
...

Mother of 4
How can I choose to ignore my hard-wiring? I am hard-wired to eat. Therefore I must eat. If our "feminine nature" is just as natural as eating, how could it ever be possible to ignore it? This is not obtuse--this is me pointing out your contradiction.

HH --- Cont.
...

"I pity those who fear submission, both women who fear to submit to their husbands and men who fear to submit to the the responsibilities of marital authority, so much that they must forever remain without the chance to become part of something greater than the mere worldly arithmetic of one plus one equaling 2."

Andrea 2:07
Can't stand the Truth, huh?

Prager needs no more qualifications for this then being married and having been denied sex by his wife.

You got a cogent rebuttal, cough it up, girlfriend.

But you don't, do you?

You don't because the REAL UNPALATABLE TRUTH BENEATH what Prager is saying her, is that most women simply DO NOT LIKE OR WANT SEX!

What they WANT is Security, Companionship, Children. They are willing to BARTER sex, and that at as favorable (minimal) an exchange rate as possible. in order to get what they really want. Once they got it, all interest is completely lost.

That's just the way it is.

Don't buy it? Of all the women I have known in my life I can accurately say that I have known only 2, that upon close analysis of their statements and behavior, could claim accurately to actually enjoy and WANT sex. Both of those could also accurately be said to have emotional problems.

Now admitting that most of the women I know have never had a conversation in my hearing about sex, but counting what I know about my friends wive’s, that still comes out to something less than 1%.

I challenge any man on this thread to better that percentage, and prove they weren't lying to you.

The Big Mick


Primavolta, whether intentional or ...
or not, your posts have you coming across as very "ME" oriented person. When you responded to Mother of 4 with "I guess I'd rather be everything you say I am if it means I get to choose my actions." the "... I get to choose my actions" part trumpeted your desire for autonomy and independence.

Please forgive me if I misunderstood you.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Rebuttal to Andrea 2:07 cont.
Further, I defy the women on this sight to produce a higher percentage of THEIR gender who says (and means) things like: "I just can't get enough of my husband, I want him all the time" in an absolutely SEXUAL sense.

Produce a higher percentage of your gender who crave sex at least one a day.

Compare that to the percentage of men who would gladly take sex multiple times a day if they could get it.

As I say, that's just the way it is.

Now I happen to think there is something gravely wrong with that, that the Male and Female God created should be in such radically different places sexually. It strikes me as NOT RIGHT, both intellectally and viscerally, but it is what it is. The very fact Prager can write a column on it shows its universal Truth.

Call it a consequence of The Fall, or a development of Modern Society, I don't know.

But it strikes me as seriously disfunctional in a World in which I expect some rationality.

The Big Mick

Big Mick
Women generally do like sex. Probably they just don't want to sleep with you.

Primavolta
There is only 1 way to make a happy and successful marriage.

That is that the man does his best to be mindful of women's needs and to fulfill his responsibilities to provide for, care for, protect, and love his wife and children and that the woman does her best to be mindful of men's needs and to fulfill her responsibility to care for, nurture, love, and support her husband and children.

A person who puts himself/herself first in all things may find happiness in marriage because his/her needs are being met. BUT, unless his/her spouse is one of those people who are so psychologically twisted that he/she finds pleasure in abuse, the marriage will not be successful.

Sopie/HappyHolidays @ 2:12pm
"Even my south american (i.e. macho), catholic raised husband knows this much.

Lucky for him too!"

My, my, doesn't this sound very threatening. Are you saying that, if you're husband didn't "know(s) this much", that there'd be hell to pay?

It sounds like there's some deep seated anger that needs to be addressed.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Frog
I probably am a pretty 'me' oriented person. But in this case, I'm not just navel-gazing. Mother of 4 is at least as 'me-oriented' as I am. One of the many differences between us is that she wants to universalize and normalize her experience, whereas I speak for myself. Mother of 4 makes these authoritative sounding proclamations about 'feminine nature' and 'hard-wiring' and 'God's plan.' I use examples from my own life to invalidate her attempts to universalize.

Final challenge
A quick skim of the thread showed a gratifying number of women WILLING to gratify their husbands greater sexual desires, but that still doesn't address MY argument.

What I reguire is PROOF that a majority of women actually do enjoy sex and want it as often as they can get it.

Failing that, I consider MY premise that the majority of women neither want it or enjoy it
"quod erat demonstrandum".

And again, that men an women differ so fundamentally on this strikes me as terribly bad, broken, wrong, etc.

Note I do not "norm" one position (all the time/only when I have to) over the other or place blame or fault.

What I desire is an admission that there IS a fundamental problem here, and that it IS a kind of wrongness that needs to be addressed somehow.
The Big Mick

Financially secure widows don't remarry
This is so funny that a man equates sex with love. So what are all of those one-night stands about? This is precisely why financially secure widows don't remarry. Never again will someone else's sex drive be their problem. It's also why men will disinherit their own children for gold diggers. Paul McCartney probably actually believed that Heather Mills thought he was a stud.

Mother of 4
Your response to me is very egalitarian. Spouses need to look out for each other. Who could argue with that? But you sing a different tune in posts 33, 35, 49, 61, etc. Either men and women are equal, or one gets to dominate the other. Which is it?

Candyce pt. 2
When you make statements about "genetically based, instinctive drives of male and female humans" you are making--among other things--philosophical propositions. The fact that you didn't write a comprehensive philosophy of marriage is irrelevant. Nevertheless, you still haven't refuted the point that if what you say is true, women become prostitutes and men become their customers.

Second of all, we do not need marriage in order to merely propagate the species. Given that Prager's admonition was directed towards married women who purposefully withhold their bodies, I do not see the relevance of pointing out how our differing biological drives make propagation easier.

Given that I'm a married man, the bed which my wife and I share is not merely hers; nor, is it mine. It is ours, just like our bodies. We are--in the eyes of God--one flesh. Hence, if things are working as they should, we will be looking to make our body as healthy as it can be. However, ransoming sex in order to get safety, comfort, etc. is metaphysically equivalent to injecting oneself with blood which has been tainted by A.I.D.S.

The Big Mick,
Nonsense.

The average, normal woman doesn't want sex as often as the average, normal man (though, as I said, its frequently not that we aren't interested -- once the idea has been planted --as that it simply didn't cross our mind). But she does enjoy it.

If a normal woman who does not enjoy sex with her husband then either she's got a problem such as I warned about with undermining her own romance through lack of respect or her husband needs to learn more about how to do it well.

Christianbook.com has a number of manuals for couples that should be useful in the latter case. I can personally recommend The Act of Marriage, by the LaHayes -- an older edition of which was among our wedding gifts.

If dryness is an issue (a problem for many women at various points in their cycles), http://www.amazon.com/K-Y-Touch-Massage-Oil-Warming/dp/B00 19SNY4G/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1230062561&sr=8-3 can't be beaten.

Finacially Secure Widowers Get a Pre-nup
Ad Evy:

It's equally funny that any women still don't understand the part of love's nature--equally essential to security--that is sexual at heart. One night-stands involve two people: he's looking to get laid, she's looking to get paid--whether it be with money, alcohol, "fun", a place to stay the night, etc. It's also the reason why well-to-do widowers get pre-nuptials: so that some gold-digging black widow can't suck him dry and leave him out in the cold. Whether Paul McCartney was smart enough to do that is immaterial.



Primavolta 2:52
Primmy, I dealt openly and honestly KNOWING that it left me WIDE OPEN to exactly the CHEAP SHOT you couldn't resist.

I did so because I believe our Society has a SERIOUS disfunction going on this issue that DOES HAVE POLITICAL as well as Social and OTHER ramifications.

I had hoped the women on this thread would respond with equal integrity, honesty and cogency.

That you could not does not say anything good about you.

By the way, I was a virgin when I got married at 36, and I had had as modest an amount of opportunities to get laid as the next non-alpha male. In all but one of those occasions, it was I who denied the sex. This includes, through the years, at least 4 different women who offered sex on multiple occasions. Mock the number if you wish, my point is that I had my opportunitiues and the choice was MINE.

This includes the woman I married who I can "from my experience" accurately say radically changed her sexual behavior following the birth of our children.

Again, mock me as short in the satisfaction department if you wish. That gets you no closer to rebutting my premise.

Do so if you can.

Big Mick
I love having sex with my husband. I'm pregnant at the moment and terrified to have sex until an OB says it's okay, but I can't wait to make up for lost time as soon as we get the green light.
I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. But what you said was kind of outrageous.

BigMick
I woud suggest that men and women just aren't in sync at various ages.

Teenage boys want sex way more than teenage girls; whereas twenty-something women probably desire sex more than men in their late thirties or forties.

Thirty-something women in most instances desire sex less than thirty-something men, but thirty-something women probably desire sex more than men who are 50+.

Women's hormones fluctuate more monthly and throuout life than do men's. And then you have women who have experienced menopause or hysterectomy and they have decidedly lowered sex drives than similarly aged husbands.

Women also have a strong emotional component to their sex drive -- meaning for women to be interested in sex many need to feel a strong emotional connection. From personal experience, I would say that I feel most amorous towards my husband when we have spent the day together and far less so if we have not spent any time together that day. Men are more basic when it comes to sex -- probably because their arousal is necessarry for the survival of the species.

Big Mick2
Your premise that most women do not enjoy sex in my experience is wrong.

It could be generational but although this is anecdotal my large circle of girlfriends enjoys sex very much. Two caveats though. Although my circle of femal friends and acquaintances enjoy sex a great deal many that have become mothers are tired very very tired and sex is not the priority it was before children. The other caveat is a lot of men are very bad at sex (even though all my males friends seem to think they are great lol) if you talk to enough women you will find that many men are terrible lovers and that can effect a woman's interest in sex.

this discussion is nauseating
Most women love sex--if skillfully approached by the man in their life.

Didn't the Bible call "the way of a man with a maiden" one of the world's wonders? This man knows how to push the right buttons.

Don't expect a woman to want you if you approach sex in a clumsy way. What a turn off.

I don't know about these women, but a man who thinks doing housework is going to get him some play would be making a big mistake with me. Forget the hum drum. Do something glamorous once a month. Take me out for a romantic dinner. Make me feel beautiful. Now you're talkin'.

Study your wife. Maybe she needs intellectual conversation so she feels like something other than a house frau.

Some men act too much like clods and haven't learned to say the right things. Just because you are a "man" and have your "needs" doesn't obligate me to force myself to desire you if you have gotten lazy in romance or let yourself go.

Primavolta,
Since you are again being deliberately obtuse and are intentionally confusing posts made on different topics there is no point in continuing to attempt to talk to you.

This column is about marriages where the partners at least WANT to have a successful relationship where you present yourself as a person who wants your own personal happiness, or at least want to get your own way, regardless of what effect that has on others.

Yes, I am sharing my personal experiences -- as illustrations of how others who would also like to enjoy 20 years (and hopefully double, triple, and even quadruple that figure), of deliriously happy marriage can use the simple principles of selfless giving and Godly partnership to attain the same results.

If you were to repent of the evil you've done, turn to God with a truly broken and contrite heart, and accept his gift of new life in Christ you too could find that those principles would lead to a happy marriage -- for BOTH parties.

Prim 303 response to M4
Zero sum games are for sophomores.

Equality does not require identicality or sameness. Being created equal does not mean equality of performance or outcome.

If it did, "diversity" would be a MEANINGLESS concept, now wouldn't it?

Or are you going to argue the President is “more equal” than Congress, or the Supreme Court?
That the Chair of the Committee is not equal to its members?

Neither does lack of identicality of role necessarily imply “dominance”. Does the Congress Dominate? Does the Committee Chair dominate?

Your dilemma is a false one. And a classic Feminist dis-cogency by the way.

The Big Mick


Big Mick
I never suggested that equality meant sameness. If men and women are equal, then there is no reason why husbands should have more power in marriage than wives. There is also no good reason for prescribed roles based on gender. Gender roles only make sense if there is inequality, since the traditional role of the woman is much more limited than that of the man.

Joel
your last post is disturbing on so many levels. Although there is the phenomenon of hypersexuality in some people who have been sexually abused, this does not account for the majority of women who enjoy and want sex.

I do believe that hormones are a large part of the disparity between men and women thoughout various life stages. But that being said, I wil say it again, although this is anecdotal the vast majority of my female friends and acquaintances were intensey desirous of sex before becoming very tired mothers and my girlfriends who are not mothers still report the same sex drive.

Mick,
"Zero sum games are for sophomores."

Nicely said.

BTW -- Some women desire sex less after childbirth because of physical damage done during the birth (in most cases time will heal this).

Some suffer reduced interest while nursing because of the hormonal changes. (I still enjoyed it most of the time -- assuming I wasn't too tired -- but HATED it when DH made advances while I was actually in the act of nursing because the arousal stuff conflicted with the motherhood stuff unpleasantly like a physical version of static on the radio.

Some suffer reduced interest because their changed body makes them think that they've become fat and unattractive. The let themselves frump around because they can't believe that a woman with stretch marks, a few extra pounds, and a sagging bosom could possible be attractive to her husband.

Some new mothers make the same mistake that Meg made in Little Women of focusing so intensely on their child that they forget their role as wife.

Some have a mental divide between the role of lovers and the role of parents -- as if they never quite got the concept that their parents actually had sex.

And some are simply TIRED because pregnancy, childbirth, nursing, and the care of children can be physically and mentally draining -- especially for a woman who also tries to work full-time.

Many of these problems CAN be fixed -- but first the woman needs to admit that it is a problem. Something Prager's column may help. :)

Ad Lisa.
Don't expect a man to want you if you can't be bothered with his "clumsy" approaches. He'd probably rather pay fifty bucks to a street-corner girl and risk the S.T.D. Same result with far less hassle.

If you think that a man who does housework for you isn't enough, then you're going to be a very lonely woman. No man I know is against doing "glamorous" things. Indeed, most men want to! However, we lose interest in doing these things the more interest we feel that is being lost in us. If you want glamor, make it worth his while. Otherwise, don't complain when he not only stops doing that, but stops doing the housework as well.

Most men I know do study women, and not just their bodies. However, men and women typically are not interested in the same "intellectual" matters. Most men I know aren't interested in discussing what their wife/girlfriend/fiance' learned in her feminist studies class.

Some men are clods, and some women are too. I've seen women that couldn't seduce a man to save their lives. As far as our "needs" go, we don't really need you for sexual fulfillment--our hands can help us to achieve the same results. If a man is letting himself go, getting lazy in his romantic proclivities--or anything else of this nature--he's probably with a women who isn't worth the effort. If you want us to romance you, make yourself worthy of being romanced. The street goes both ways.



Mother of 4
I will repeat what I said to you the other day. Your god is not mine. To me, that being is not real. I do not discuss my spirituality with people I do not know and trust intimately. But I do have spirituality and even a religion of sorts. I will never share those details with you, however. You have called me many insulting names and made many accusations against me on this board. But you have never honestly answered one of my questions. If you want to convert me, you have to show me some respect and get me to trust you. Since you have never tried that approach, I know you do not really want to witness to me. You just want to show off to the other people on this board.

If your wife doesn't want sex...

And you are a good, kind, trustworthy, stable, unselfish, hardworking, and faithful husband...

You will have to wait until your mother-in-law dies.






Ad HappyHolidays.
The one night stand still involves going to a secure location, but it doesn't necessarily have to be solely about security. Most women I've known who engaged in one night stands were either drunk, high on some kind of drugs, or a combination of the two. Those who weren't did so because they weren't happy with what they were getting from the current boyfriend/husband. Point is they wanted/needed something that they weren't getting. The sex was secondary to some deeper need. They used the sex to get it.

As far as you wanting sex more than your partner: fair enough, but if he wasn't working, or was tired from being up all night partying, I doubt you'd be very interested in him.

Happy Holidays!,
In Christian Submission the wife submits to the authority of the husband and the husband submits to the authority of God -- who commands him to sacrifice for her as Christ sacrificed for the church.

The husband has the authority, but he is only to use it for his wife's benefit and the benefit of their family.

The wife's submission is a purely voluntary act of faith -- faith in her husband and faith in God's plan.

The husband has no authority to force submission on a woman who will not grant it. He has no authority to use his headship of the family for his own self-aggrandizement or to in any way put his wife at a disadvantage.

It is both symbolic of and a pale, mere-human imitation of the relationship between God and his people.

"A sexually fulfilled husband is a happy
husband."

Excellent column, especially this part about some wives (the "wise" ones):

"She knows a sexually fulfilled husband is a happy husband. (At the same time, men need to recognize that complete sexual fulfillment is unattainable in this world.) And because a happy husband loves his wife more, this cycle of love produces a happy home."

This is a most helpful column---and hopefully people (especially we wives) won't miss Part II (after the Christmas rush is over), and will go back and read this Part I.

Joel
You make a very peculiar claim. You say: "that a woman that does WANT sex every day, and thinks about it all the time the way men do, is almost always that way do to abuse or trauma."

My experience is quite the opposite. WOmen who are free from trauma have a much healthier sex drive than those who are not. You position is, in effect, that women who have a strong sex drive must have something wrong with them.

Not true.

Seth, you clod
I do make myself worth it. And I'm not lonely or complaining. I keep myself fit. I aspire to be sexy all of the time, to be a credit to my husband. I want other guys to be jealous. ;)

The other things I do might be TMI for this thread.

And I expect a man who understands that when he expresses his desire with sophistication, he will be more than rewarded.

Oh, BTW, I do love my husband very much. He is a kind and wonderful man. We do housework, we go to church, we schlep kids to activities. But I believe it is worth the effort it takes to keep things hot. And I want a man who thinks so too. Good thing I've got one.

Love And Marriage
When two people love each other,they want what is best for each other. During courtship,each usually shows the other their 'best side'. This same behavior needs to continue after marriage.

Marriage means two people are now one. When one hurts,so does the other one. If one is happy,the other is also.The courtship should continue.

It doesn't take much to 'prime' each other. A meaningful look,a hug as you pass the other. Just a touch.

Feminists have emasculated men. Many make more money than the husband and never lets him forget it. They let him know the do not need him for security. He feels less of a man.

Being alone for many years,I watch some couples together and wonder why they don't smile or touch each other. If I was in their place,I would not let a moment pass without conveying the love to my spouse.When it's over,it's over. Make the best of each moment.







Prim, Lisa, Lulu, Happy Hol
I find it fascinating that the basic response of the women on the thread so far is either: "It ain't so cause I say it ain't." OR "It's all YOUR fault."

Note my requested Proof has not yet been forthcoming. ALL the rebuttals are in the "mitigated" category.

What I requested as the standard was the number greater than 1% of women known to say “I want his stuffing in my bird NOW!”

Prim comes the closest. Good for her! Her husband is a fortunate man, I hope he maintains that fortune for the rest of his life. All I can say is that I can’t think of a single male I have talked to that mirrors his experience. Be interesting to see what he says, my instincts tell me he would back his wife and that it would most probably be, in the main, True. But then can Prim claim, like LuLu, that the majority of her female friends give the same testimony? LuLu comes the next closest, but I still don’t “hear” THAT flavor in the narrative of her girlfriends. “Enjoy” is a relative scale, and it is still a moot, in the sense of debatable, point how much factors IN ADDITION to sex factor in the enjoyment quotient. Ask your girlfriends how content they would be (if they had all the kids they want) going without sex the rest of their lives. Compare that to the men. How does “enjoyment” factor on THAT scale?
Note too how much mitigation comes in her talk of hormonal flows and emotional content.
That and Lu and Lisa agreeing it is most likely the fault of the man’s technique.

Lisa even finds the subject nauseating. Interesting that. What’s it tell you?

Still that beats Happy’s “ silly wrong and offensive stereotypes”.

Don’t give a damn about YOUR stereotypes, Hap. My experience is my experience, rebut it IF you can. As regards women and “multiples” so you SAY. We’ve seen on film how easy you guys can fake it. I’m interested if any MEN on the thread were present for an alleged “multiple” and have proof?

mick

Joel
I keep trying to say something to you, but the post keeps getting deleted. Let's see if it works this time.

Lisa, you clod.
You didn't even argue against me. What a shame. You simply demonstrated my point.

Joel,
That is just sick.

How often a person wants sex and how much they enjoy it are two COMPLETELY separate items.

And how often a married woman wants sex -- assuming she's not over-tired, stressed in her job (either as a mother or as a paycheck earner), distracted by over-commitments, etc. -- is going to be part hormonal and part a reflection at how good her husband is at doing it.

A man whose wife does not enjoy sex would do well to purchase a suitable marriage manual.

And she would do well to think on her own thoughts and attitudes to see if she's been guilty of doing him the disrespect of dwelling on his failings rather than his virtues or of allowing her role as a mother to crowd out her role as a wife.

Sophie
The whole submit to your husband thing is not about one person exercising tyranny over another. It IS about ONE person making the final decision for the good of the family when no compromise is possible. There can only be one captain per ship, as it were. That said, God doesn't really care who handles the finances, maintains the family automobile, or does the cooking. Whoever has the gift makes the larger decisions IN LIGHT of every possible consideration of a given situation, if an impasse exists. It's called trust. Without it, nothing else matters. The "You're not the boss of ME!" types never get it and they're the ones most often in divorce court.

Christian submission
Wife submitting to her husband's authority? That is not a marriage of equals but a master-slave relationship. It is not realistic and a key recipe for a marriage breakup (especially when both the husband and wife are resonably intelligent). Any woman who needs her husband's permission to take decisions is only a doormat.
(At least now I know why I never claim to be christian)

AliveInHim
If it is not about tyranny then it should be "submit to each other" or how about "take a decsion jointly"? Obviously under some situations the wife's decision may be better and in other cases the husband's. The foolish idea of "submitting to the husband" presupposes that the husband's decision will always be the better one and that is wrong. (Obviously one of those biblical writers was a misogynistic idiot)

Joel
Proof = I am a woman. I enjoy sex. Therefore the claim that all women hate sex is false.

Give me strength
So just how long during a session am I supposed to be on my knees helping him to get it UP? I'm old, too, and frankly, I'm tired of trying to keep encouraging him when he says he wants it everyday, but can only come through once a week.

But is he willing to give it a rest? Nooo, his macho ego takes precedence over my arthritis. Those effing little blue pills only work sometimes and the doc says it's not a physical problem; it's old age.

So if I'm not in the mood, I've got every reason and right to refuse. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is STUPID!


It's disrespectful to me to keep coming at me and then make me tell him , "Oh, honey, it's all right. We'll try again later." Frankly, I'd rather be doing the laundry than play this game.

"you're not the boss of me"
Why is this such a bad sentiment? Everyone wants to be loved, but most people don't want to be controlled. Who could blame them? Even people who claim to enjoy being submissive like Mother of 4 probably are not submissive at all in reality. They've just figured out that as long as they tow the submissive line, they can do whatever they want and no one will care. Well-to-do southern ladies stand to benefit particularly from this approach. And they are the biggest battle axes of them all.
As for the claim that any ship can only have one captain--I don't see why this has to be the case. My relationship does not have a captain and it's been working really well for seven years.

"God intends for men to have more than--
one wife." (According to "Joel," 3:51 p.m. post)

Joel's 'reasoning' is SERIOUSLY FLAWED!

I agree that God intended for *certain* men, such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to have "more than one wife." After all, HE can, and did, authorize polygamy at certain times, for SPECIFIC *good* men, who act in *obedience* to God's will, rather than in their own lustful desires.

These cases were for God's own purposes, to "raise up seed" unto himself, at *certain* times.

I see NO EVIDENCE that God "intends" polygamy as a general rule, for all men, at all times.

Happy Holidays!,
You are either severely confused or deliberately misunderstanding.

ALL Christians must always submit to God. That's a given.

Christian wives are, additionally, called upon to submit to their husbands.

Christian husbands are, additionally, called upon to sacrifice for their wives as Christ sacrificed for the church (note that means dying by torture if necessary -- as Christ died on the cross).

Unmarried female Christians are not called upon to submit to any random man. Unmarried male Christians are not called upon to sacrifice for any random woman.

Joel
I thought you were the one who said the only women who enjoy sex are the ones who have been molested. Perhaps I was wrong. In any event, I have never been molested and I do enjoy sex very much.

Aliveinhim,
Nice to see someone else who understands the Christian Submission concept.

I don't understand why so many people, even Christians, can't grasp that its not about power, its about unstinting, unmeasured love and boundless trust. :-)


Prima, wife opted to order take out
Might shock you to know, but I totally agree that "you're not the boss of me" is the RIGHT attitude to have in MOST circumstances. The only exception being God and God's Kingdom. In this latter case there are some issues of Pastoral authority in terms of Doctrine, etc.

I don't adhere to the classic "husband as Lord" model. I look to the context of "submit to one another" and "there is no longer any male and female but all are one in Christ", likewise "the two shall become one flesh."

A close look at the text shows different tasks for different reasons, both I would argue, geared to the different lacks, limitations, DIS-inclinations and challenges of fallen women verses fallen men.

In politics, "you ain't the boss of me" is fundamental to our Constitutional Republic" which I regard as the epitome of proper, God endowed minimal Government.

I would want to argue the higher the "boss" quotient in a Society, the less evolved, less free, and more prone to corruption it is. Mexico and Afghanistan come to mind.

The Big Mick


Listen to Dennis, He's right.
I didn't read all the comments.

I absolutely agree with Dennis on this. Besides, men (and women) don't get married to NOT have sex. I can count on one hand the number of times I turned my husband down in our 15 year marriage. He was an every day kind of guy for the first 10 years and now he's an every other day guy now that he's over 40.

I'm the only woman my husband has ever been with and if he can wait 26 years for me, I'm glad to accommodate him even if I'm not in the mood. The beauty of female design is I don't HAVE to be in the mood for an orgasm to have sex with him. I can just enjoy being close to him. He does all kinds of things for me in the bedroom and out, so I'm glad to please him.

I think sex is a very accurate indicator of the quality of a marriage. Frequency and variety should be very high and if you have to choose one or the other for some reason, go with frequency.

Men, resentment kills the mood for a woman, so keep your eyes and ears open and resolve things gently in a mutually beneficial way ASAP, and she'll probably warm up. If she's complaining about being tired, then help pick up the domestic chores and parenting responsibilities more consistently and she'll probably be more responsive.

Ladies, if you're not interesting or enjoying sex anymore, you may need to see a doctor because you could have some underlying medical problem and it will eventually affect the other aspects of your life too. Take care of yourself.

Joel, I am not going to fall into your
foolish trap.

YOU made a blanket statement that "God intends for men to have more than one wife." I did not read a qualifying, or limiting, statement, BY YOU, that you did not mean for that to apply in general, in our nation, for instance, TODAY. Are you engaged in polygamy, or polyamory?

You did not cite a scripture reference for the fallacious interpretation that that applies to ALL MEN, at all times, and you CANNOT (at least in the King James version, which is what I read).

I read scriptures nearly every day. (Do you read the Bible every day?) Yes, there are several instances of Old Testament prophets who were given more than one wife by God. Also several, such as David, who engaged in polygamy, at times, UNAPPROVED by God.

But those scriptural cases in no way prove your statement, if you meant:

"God intends for [all, or even any, in the world today] men to have more than one wife."

The people who were living "The Law of Moses" were NOT all living in polygamous marriages, according to the way MOST people read the Bible.

HappyHolidays!,
Because Christ doesn't submit to the church and the church doesn't die for Christ. :D

Its not merely a practical plan for dealing with the fact that a ship can't have two Captains (I noted in the original post that very often my DH's decision is that I'm better equiped to make that particular decision), its also an act of symbolic faith.

TriciaCT
Let us not forget that a lot of these "prophets" were simply dirty old lechers. Why blame God for their actions.
There are cultures in the world where women were allowed to have more than one husband. Their "prophet" told them that was okay.
So if God allows one then the other is also equally valid. And besides, one woman can have sex with more than one man in a single night. The reverse is not easy for men. So I say God actually allows polyandry (one woman many husbands)

Mother of 4
Life is not one "ship" but many ships representing different situations. In some situations husband can captain the situation ship and in other the wife can. To simply assume that the husband is captain in all situations is silly.

Thank goodness
I thank goodness that I am single and don't have to worry about any of this. Sorry, guys, but I really don't care if you are wired to think about sex every 5 seconds...my body is my own--not anyone elses. You need to understand where real frigidity comes from (and I am not talking about the occasional "headache")...when your wife gives in all the time when she doesn't want to, why do you then you complain that she no longer is the passionate woman you married years ago? Well, she just lays there an takes it because you guys haven't learned that sex is NOT the most important thing in life--especially as one gets older. And now you all are taking little blue pills to force it to happen when nature already said slow down?? There is a reason why age affects virility...That was the way it was intended.




Homeschool Mom AZ,
Very well said.

Sex is an act of emotional and spiritual bonding as well as mere physical pleasure. There are few good reasons to pass that up.

I've had to say no more than a handful of times in nearly 20 years, but I always try to set a time for the rain check and I try to stay open to the possibility that I may not be as distracted and not in the mood as I thought I was if I'm willing to let DH snuggle me and see what he can get started. :)

Half an hour of cuddling in bed while you read or talk can work wonders.

Gosh Fabius Cunctator
How do you think we become mothers?

Men and Women and Sex
If a man can't figure out how to get his wife to have sex with him, then he isn't a very good lover. All this analyzing crap that lays all the blame on women for not wanting sex, especially after taking care of kids, the house, work and god know what else, the man involved needs to listen to his wife and help her so she can actually have the time, energy and desire to be a lover herself.
The old saying, "there are not frigid women, just clumsy men" has more than a little ring of truth.

UM,
That is one of the mysteries of faith.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 1 Corinthians 1:25

Fabius Cunctator,
Not qualified? ROFLOL

News flash. Babies don't really come from the stork.

News flash 2. If your grandmothers had that many kids they weren't making their husbands sleep in the barn.

I've spent the day dealing with a cranky 3yo, supervising an 8yo who is so excited about Christmas that he can hardly keep still, baking multiple batches of fresh cookies, cooking two hot meals, admiring the 17yo's latest efforts in 3-D computer modeling, and determining what last minute things we need to get tomorrow morning.

I've still had plenty of time to debate this issue and have no reason not to agree to anything my husband would like to do later this evening.

I don't have half the energy that many women I know have either.

The floor is covered in toys and probably won't get picked up tonight and the 15yo needs some prodding about the dinner dishes but those are trivial things by comparison to reinforcing our marriage bond.

Fabius Cunctator-intimacy recharges
You wrote to Mother of 4:

"After caring for children during the day and doing things with your hubby, you mean to say that you have enough energy to enjoy sex at night? Unless you are very rich and have servants, I find that hard to believe. "

Why is that so impossible to believe?

Time with the husband RECHARGES me. Intimacy fuels a woman when it's with a man who is attentive and loving outside the bedroom and skilled and loving inside the bedroom.

That's the part of my day when I can put aside my endless list of tasks and clear my mind and enjoy the closeness-not to mention the oxytocin rush.

It's a very important part of my life because it's one of the very short parts of my day when I'm not working. Someone is attending to ME and making ME feel good, and loved, and beautiful, both emotionally and physically at the same time.


My 3 kids are 3, 11, and 13. I teach all the core subjects to them at home in addition to running a household and being a taxi service like every other mom out there. Most of my homeschool mom friends have 5-9 children and they still enjoy a good sex life. (Yes, conservative women do talk about sex with each other.)

When a woman isn't in the Mood
I have spoken with my wife and other women about this, and their general feelings mirror the article. For the most part, they just don't get it. Say no capriciously, and often, and then wonder why their men cheat. Sex used to gain advantage or as a bargaining chip cheapens the act until it loses its connection with loving, and becomes just a physical release. I believe that this trend has much to do with the high divorce rate today. If a man makes a fuss about wanting, and being denied sex, he is "pressuring" his wife. Almost an abuser, so to speak. Her reaction is often to pull away, which will exacerbate the situation. Wanting to talk about it is seen as further pressure, and criticism! We are all animals, with a full set of instincts and drives as part of the package. In short, you can't fool Mother Nature, and she wants her men randy and ready! (sorry Mom)

One thing about me...second attempt
Is that I always admit it when I get a cogent rebuttal.

While I'd still like to interview their husbands and girl friends separately for corroboration, I’ll admit that if you weigh their anecdotal evidence as equal with my own the ladies on the thread have, at a minimum, expanded my data base on the other side. I now have to postulate a much higher percentage.
Couple of caveats though.
Even taking their anecdotal evidence at face value, we still have to note the disconnect between “enjoyment” and frequency. I continue to argue that if the enjoyment was equal in intensity and nature or type, one would expect greater congruency in desire of frequency.

That that remains is unrebutted, though Homeschool edges up to it.

I continue to await the evidence of womens’circles who complain to each other that their man doesn’t give them enough to slake their hor_ _-ness and--would you call it the contrapositive?--the husbands who lament to each other how their woman is keeping them “wore down to a nub.”

Haven't heard THAT yet, so I continue to argue my basic premise remains intact.

Which continues to be that if you ask 100 husbands and 100 wives if they are getting all the sex they want a higher percentage of men will answer “No!” I extend the premise to say a large majority of men will answer “no”, and a majority of women will NOT answer “no.”
I continue to postulate this is NOT a good thing. One can argue that society has made men way too oversexed as easily as you can argue that women are under.

and one more thing

mick

When a woman isn't in the