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Tuesday, December 23, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Another Great Depression?
by Thomas Sowell
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With both Barack Obama's supporters and the media looking forward to the new administration's policies being similar to President Franklin D. Roosevelt's policies during the 1930s depression, it may be useful to look at just what those policies were and-- more important-- what their consequences were.

The prevailing view in many quarters is that the stock market crash of 1929 was a failure of the free market that led to massive unemployment in the 1930s-- and that it was intervention of Roosevelt's New Deal policies that rescued the economy.

It is such a good story that it seems a pity to spoil it with facts. Yet there is something to be said for not repeating the catastrophes of the past.

Let's start at square one, with the stock market crash in October 1929. Was this what led to massive unemployment?

Official government statistics suggest otherwise. So do new statistics on unemployment by two current scholars, Richard Vedder and Lowell Gallaway, in their book "Out of Work."

The Vedder and Gallaway statistics allow us to follow unemployment month by month. They put the unemployment rate at 5 percent in November 1929, a month after the stock market crash. It hit 9 percent in December-- but then began a generally downward trend, subsiding to 6.3 percent in June 1930.

That was when the Smoot-Hawley tariffs were passed, against the advice of economists across the country, who warned of dire consequences.

Five months after the Smoot-Hawley tariffs, the unemployment rate hit double digits for the first time in the 1930s.

This was more than a year after the stock market crash. Moreover, the unemployment rate rose to even higher levels under both Presidents Herbert Hoover and Franklin D. Roosevelt, both of whom intervened in the economy on an unprecedented scale.

Before the Great Depression, it was not considered to be the business of the federal government to try to get the economy out of a depression. But the Smoot-Hawley tariff-- designed to save American jobs by restricting imports-- was one of Hoover's interventions, followed by even bigger interventions by FDR.

The rise in unemployment after the stock market crash of 1929 was a blip on the screen compared to the soaring unemployment rates reached later, after a series of government interventions.

For nearly three consecutive years, beginning in February 1932, the unemployment rate never fell below 20 percent for any month before January 1935, when it fell to 19.3 percent, according to the Vedder and Gallaway statistics.

In other words, the evidence suggests that it was not the "problem" of the financial crisis in 1929 that caused massive unemployment but politicians' attempted "solutions." Is that the history that we seem to be ready to repeat?

The stock market crash, which has been blamed for the widespread suffering during the Great Depression of the 1930s, created no unemployment rate that was even half of what was created in the wake of the government interventions of Hoover and FDR.

Politically, however, Franklin D. Roosevelt could not have been more successful. After all, he was the only President of the United States elected four times in a row. He was a master of political rhetoric.

If Barack Obama wants political success, following in the footsteps of FDR looks like the way to go. But people who are concerned about the economy need to take a closer look at history. We deserve something better than repeating the 1930s disasters.

There is yet another factor that provides a parallel to what happened during the Great Depression. No matter how much worse things got after government intervention under Roosevelt's New Deal policies, the party line was that he had to "do something" to get us out of the disaster created by the failure of the unregulated market and Hoover's "do nothing" policies.

Today, increasing numbers of scholars recognize that FDR's own policies were a further extension of interventions begun under Hoover. Moreover, the temporary rise in unemployment after the stock market crash was nowhere near the massive and long-lasting unemployment after government interventions.

Barack Obama already has his Herbert Hoover to blame for any and all disasters that his policies create: George W. Bush.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Dr. Sowell
Don't try to confuse people with facts. They don't want to hear about facts. They just want to be rescued by the one. Even though his policies are basically the same as those that created the Great Depression with one exception. His spending proposals will really cause the deficit to skyrocket. One thing is true that any failures of his proposals will be blamed on Bush.

Dr. Sowell, and also
systems theory says the government shouldn't intervene.

Dr. W Edwards Deming told us that tampering, which is to change a system without understanding the source of its variation, creates even more variability, and thus makes the problems worse.

Based upon analysis of the historical records and the theory of systems, the best thing that government can do is to stay out of it. Alas, they won't.

Obama's path may lead to econ recovery..

... All it took to generate the geniune demand to get us out of the Great Depression was a World War. And with the Neville Chamberlins taking over our government, we may just very well get there.

Obama's path may lead to econ recovery..

... All it took to generate the geniune demand to get us out of the Great Depression was a World War. And with the Neville Chamberlins taking over our government, we may just very well get there.

Dr. Sowell waxes redundant
"With both Barack Obama's supporters and the media..."

Dr Sowell
One major flaw in your article! Soon, all our wants and needs will be graciously provided by Our Dear Leader.

Why would anyone even want to work?

agree h20skier
Right on the mark! h20skier, Couldn't say it better, myself. We are destined to repeat the mistakes we don't learn from. The left in this country has such an absolute hatred for bush, that they DO NOT CARE, where this next administration takes us, as long as it isn't "BUSH"! Then they'll of course, blame everything, that doesn't work, ON bush.

We're all Screwed.
We're all screwed.

To protect yourself...
...Buy gold. Obama can't print more gold.

Obama and Roosevelt
Obama is in an enviable position. Blaming Bush has become such a proven approach in the media, universities, entertainment and much of the general public that no thinking is required. Use a few stock phrases or cliches, a lie or two in a typical crowd of such people and voila, the assembled multitude is participating in that great patriotic struggle to criticize the notorious George W along with his infamous revisionist revanchist renegade clique. Some readers may recall China's destructive Cultural Revolution which provided these clever quotations.

Terse Economics
No Free Lunch
Wealth is not created by printing money
We get more of what we reward
Talk is cheap

Charlie
I would also add...We get less of whatever we tax

SCHEMERS AND DREAMERS
Knowing that 'ending' the War in Iraq was not enough to get barry elected, the liberal left 'schemed' to take our 'economic machine' apart, creating a 'crisis' with which to convince American 'dreamers' only they and the 'one' could put it back together.
However, these politicians with their elite 'higher education' had no training or background in 'building or re-building' anything. And after dismantling the machine of our 'economy' (pocketing its profitable parts) leaving the rest in pieces, the liberal left congress had no clue how to put it back together again.
So to President Bush they ran screaming 'Humpty fell off the Wall(Street)--we need 700 billion of green glue to put him back together again'. But it wasn't enough 'green glue', and they kept coming back for more, having to 'make' (print) more and more 'green glue'.
While the 'dreamers' Hope' they can, sadly some of us know "All the Kings horses and All the Kings men can't put Humpty back together Again".
The 'Hopeful Dreamers' elected 'Hopeless Schemers'.

Charlie and Icedog
And you get more of whatever you subsidize.

Dr. Sowell's right: W is another Hoover, a sunshine capitalist. (What was it that Bush said the other day? Something like "I'm a free-marketer, but I'm not going to let markets cause problems or mar my legacy.") Obama is another Roosevelt, a clueless socialist -- but I repeat myself. This could get messy.

Dr. Sowell Keep Shining Your Light!

The Barack Obama solution.

Let he who is without wealth cash the first check!

George
Please cease spreading the false notion that WWII saved our economy. What saved us was the destruction of our competition and the goods and profits we built in the 50's. The same war crushed England France and Germany as players on the world stage. Theories have value only according to their ability to predict results. The theory of relativity was hotly debated until the advent of instruments able to confirm its predictions arrived. Economics is no different. Sowell occupies a hig place because his theories have predictive value. Make work projects only make things worse. Does a man up to his ears in credit card debt reduce it by digging holes on the beach for the tide to fill? Work is not the answer, profit is the answer. Whichever country manages it the best will emerge from this world wide slump the quickest and best. In the 30's it was Germany, and it made HItler the most admired politician in the world.

It sure looks
like 30's deja vu all over again. We hear hoofbeats and Occam's razor says its horses. Still, no one knows what Obama will do. He wants to be re-elected, so who knows, he might produce zebras. More likely horses and blame Bush. It worked for FDR.

America forgets it's history well....
It seems every "X" amount of years years or so we have an economic downturn and every time the government gets bigger it gets worse.

In 1893 we had the great panic,
In 1929 the stock market crash and then bigger government in 1932 with FDR's new deal.
In the 1970's we got Carter and government got bigger...
In the 90's we got Billy boy Clinton and government grew again...
now
In 2009 we get stuck with The socialist elect.. and he already is promising bigger government....Pattern here folks?

When Hoover was leaving office he desperately wanted to show he was doing something/anything to relieve the crisis can anyone say TARP?

In 1933 when FDR took office within 100 days he vastly increased government with an alphabet soup of new government agencies and
dove head first into the tax and spend philosophy...here we go again (socialist elect)

FDR passed 15 major laws so fast that no one knew if they were even constitutional.
fittingly named things like:
Emergency banking act,national industrial recovery act, "civilian conservation corps" can anyone say "Obama's citizens army"?
and
we also got stuck with the 18th amendment.
(later to be repealed)

Democratic congress gave a rubber stamp to FDR's mess and it made the depression last longer than if America was left alone.

The communist party usa (CPUSA)reveled in FDR's election...like they do with the socialist elect.
Radio (MSM then) supported FDR at record levels...

History is repeating itself...we can thank Jimmy Carter for the dumbing down of American voters with his Dept. Of Education and it's minions the NEA and other teachers unions.

Thanks to the democrats for this mess...

History forgotten is bound to repeat itself..

Welcome Back FDR/Carter







Our Dear Leader is Bush!
He has been more socialist than any US Prez in history. He is Roosevelt and Johnson combined. Thank God he is going away forever. My children than him for their future bondage.

INTERVENTIONS
Exactly what are the interventions and solutions offered by Hoover & FDR that led to increased unemployment.

The ole addage is true!
Those who do not learn from their past are doomed to repeat it!!

Now get back to work! Millions of illegal immigrants on welfare are depending on you!

Global warming is a Hoax!

Peace Out!

But, but,

Didn't President FDR go on TV right after the crash of '29 and tell the people about a day that will live in infamy, or something like that? Vice President elect Biden (next-in-line to be) told Couric that, so it must be true. At least the MSM didn't jump all over it like when Couric made Palin look dumb.

I really believe that if the average voters would just weigh the nuances put forth by the MSM they could cast a responsible vote without needing to waste time on facts, or that pesky Constitution.


History Repeats

Prior to the depression 1028 Economists warned against Smoot-Hawley Tariffs. FDR and others went ahead and accelerated the great depression. It took a War -WW II - to get the US out of the depression (and not the Government projects such as WPA etc). Dr. Sowell is right again. Unfortunately Obama is going to follow the same mistaken path and when his economic policies fail he will take the country into a long drawn out war -- probably in Afghanistan-Pakistan ---. Also it is important to note that Russia is strengthening its armed forces; and Putin is becoming a stronger more perpetual leader.

Read the following article for more on Smoot-Hawley.
http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id= 12798595

I also believe that Smoot & Hawley were Republicans proving that politicians are "ECONOMICS" DUDS -- regardless of party.

History repeats itself because people do not learn from history.

Thomas
"...Moreover, the temporary rise in unemployment after the stock market crash was nowhere near the massive and long-lasting unemployment after government interventions..."

LMAO and what Thomas was happening socially in the country? Programs do not happen in a vacuum do they? The consensus is rapidly coming round to the view that FDR's mistake was letting go of government intervention in the economy too soon. I do congratulate you though you told not one lie.

but...
It was an interesting article, as usual, but where is the smoking gun? Like some others who comment here...I'm interesting in the rest of the story.

Rayc55...
If you read Dr Sowell's article you saw that Hoover signed the Smoot-Hawley Tariff bill which placed high tariffs on imported items and in turn allies like Canada raised their tariffs in retaliation. Therefore we couldn't/didn't export as much closing factories and transportation. 87 branches of American factories opened north of the 49th parallel.

Roosevelt started the "brain trust" and soon after he got into office he declared a "bank holiday" closing banks for a week inciting panic. Congress appropiated 3.3 billion to set up a nationwide system to manage the economy. FDR then took us off the gold standard and printed all the cash he needed.
He also gave us the SEC...
And that's just a quick run down.. May I suggest a good read...America, The Last Best Hope vol II. for more.

Hal Donahue
Hal wrote:
>
> "...Moreover, the temporary rise in
> unemployment after the stock market crash was
> nowhere near the massive and long-lasting
> unemployment after government
> interventions..."
>
> LMAO and what Thomas was happening socially
> in the country?

Since I am uncertain exactly what you are referring to Hal... will you share what you believe was happening socially which was more likely the cause of the aforementioned massive and long-lasting unemployment?

> The consensus is rapidly coming round to the
> view that FDR's mistake was letting go of
> government intervention in the economy too
> soon.

Paul Krugman's opinion doth not a consensus make, Hal... nor even the the alignment of your opinion AND Paul Krugman's... so, praytell, which other notable economists share Krugman's (and presumably, your) opinion?

Don't confuse me with the facts!
A Dumbocratic theme or song, if you wish! Don't confuse me with the facts! I have already made up my mind!

So how the heck do we get past this Dumbocratic theme? Hang on until we can elect people who do the right things right! It is not that the Dumbocrats do not read and understand the real facts. It appears to me they simply consider them inconvient facts to be ignored because it does not help them to get and remain elected and in-charge! IMHO!

"FDR's Folly:

How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression" by Jim Powell -- an excellenr read, and one that, among other things, debunks the myth of FDR as some kind of secular saint. (And THAT is long overdue!)

Depression I am afraid so
Interestingly enough if you look at the numbers for this recession, it appeared as if the economy was bottoming out in September, before all the intervention. With the election of Mr Obama and his choices of government appointees combined with his statements, the economy has entered a steep decline.

BO cannot blame Bush forever
In politics, four years may as well be forty. Americans are impatient, and most have a two week attention span. Blaming Bush for every problem in the world got him elected, it won't get him reelected.

If BO wants to be reelected, he'll have to eschew the election-year rhetoric, pi** off his base, and govern as a fiscal conservative, that is, more conservatively than Bush. Shouldn't be hard.

I'd be pleasantly surprised to see him veto a Democrat budget bill. Unfortunately, he isn't man enough to stand up to Pelosi and Congressional Democrats.

Who Is John Galt?
Ms. Rand is seeming all the more prophetic as the yeras pass.

depression
When you add Obama's central planning on energy with the economic intervention, this country is heading into tough times that will make the Great Depression look mild. Despite the tough times, Obama will be able to blame Bush. The One will control the media with no Limbaughs or anyone else to oppose his plans. The Democrats have been given free reign to control every aspect of our lives. It will be like the Soviet Union where the central committee even took away the seed the farmers would use for planting.

Rayc55, another good read
If you want to know more about the Great Depression and how FDR's policies worsened and prolonged it, read "The Forgotten Man" by Amity Shlaes. In it she says what my mother (who was a 16 year old high school graduate, and working in 1933) always told about FDR and the Depression. FDR was not the savior we were told about in high school.

Let's clarify
Smoot-Hawley was signed by Hoover on June 17, 1930, fully 8 1/2 month and by some accounts 10 months after the onset of the Depression. It raised tariffs by 2 1/2 percent over the already existing tariffs. Between 1929 and 1933 total GDP fell by almost 50%/~$48B while the drop in combined exports and imports was a bit >50%/~$6.5B. There hardly exists evidence that the tariffs were significant in their effect. It did not cause the depression. And since it wasn't the cause it is pure speculation and an exercise in determining lying figures who use figures that lie that is significantly added fuel to that fire.
The smart money is on a failure of the FED to stave off bank runs caused the depression.
This article twists history to make a Smoot point. We are already in a mess and there isn't much talk of protectionism, not to say there is none.

don juan...
interesting that someone whose username is supposed to symbolize love would be so full of misguided hate.

don juan...
interesting that someone whose username is supposed to symbolize love would be so full of misguided hate.

Don Juan
Why not just come out and openly propose that we convert our Republic to a formal scoialist model?

You want to increase taxes on those who provide jobs, kill unborn children on a massive worldwide scale and silence the voices of conservatism.

Regardless of whether or not you believe what you write, you must admit that your thought are very un-American.

ERverything you advocated for in those two posts above was actual policy under the USSR. It was 50+ years of soul-less abject misery, fear and poverty for most living under that umbrella.

Ironic that you show no grasp of recent history while commenting on an article written about the dangers of not learning from history.

Scarry.

RD

FDR'S MOVE TO THE LEFT

.....In 1935 FDR's popularity was waning because his policys were not seen to be working ...his main critics, including Huey P Long of LA, critized FDR for not being far enough to the Left ...Long was a strong believer in wealth redistribution and most of the voters also liked this idea ...

....So, to enhance his chances for re-election in 1936, FDR moved further to the Left with his Second New Deal ...among the Legislation he signed in 1935 were: ...The Social Security Act ...The National Labor Relations Act ...The Banking Act ...The Relief Appropriation Act (WPA) ...

....."Decrying the unjust concentration of wealth and economic power," the President (FDR) called for Federal inheritance and gift taxes, higher personal income taxes in the upper brackets and a graduated corporate income tax ... he then signed the Wealth Tax Act ...

.....Roosevelt was casting his lot with the forgotten man (who seems most often to be remembered during and just prior to election years) ...it would be "us" against "them" in 1936, and FDR clearly wanted to be one of "us" ...the strategy worked and FDR was re-elected in 1936 ...

.....Since Obama is a great admirer of FDR, I would not be surprised if he used the same tactic in 2012 .....COLOSSUS

Yeah, quote the DailyKos
On Townhall.com. That'll go over like a fart in a spacesuit. :D

Ignore the trollz...
If TH'ers ignore the resident trolls we'll have a better discussion...

Resident troll list (growing daily)

Hal Donahue
Ranger29/robert/wobbie
Don Juan
Koolmuse
etc...etc...etc....

There are alot of great posters with very valid points lets not let them hijack this thread like they keep trying to do.

We're facing an American Downturn/crisis and we need to hang together or most assuredly we'll hang apart.

Obama's plan
Obama said that he intends to shut down the coal industry? He presented it as just stopping new coal-fired power plants from being built. There is a lot more to coal than that. This move will shut down the coal, iron, and steel industries and every industry that uses coal, iron, and steel.
Coal is used to power some trains, heat some homes, and to make iron ore into iron the metal.
Coal is used to heat pig iron to form it.
Coal is roasted to make it into coke.
Coke is used to convert iron the metal into steel the metal.
Coal is used to form steel ingots into shapes like I-beams.
Steel is made into parts like nuts and bolts, angles, rebars, pipes, etc.
Reinforcing bars are needed for reinforced concrete.
Steel parts are made into machines such as lathes, harvesters, reactors, pumps, etc.
Steel is needed for drilling and transporting oil, natural gas, coal, and nuclear fuel.

When all these industries go out of business, they will no longer pay the many taxes they now pay, nor pay the employees’ income taxes, nor pay the new taxes that put them out of business.

Obama cannot endear himself to the American People by taxing us to death and spouting the global warming hoax while forcing the oil, natural gas, coal, and electricity energy suppliers out of existence when we’re entering an ice age that will hit full force when we’re halfway through what might be his second term.

No Easy Answers,
U.S. taxpayers, under the coercion of the President and congress, have now doled out billions to private banks and businesses and there is no accountability or disclosure from the "loan" recipients. Where's the outrage from the President and congress on this failure to track taxpayer's money? Hmmmmm...(crickets chirping).

Obmaama promises massive centralized governmental bailouts and social spending so government (in all its' efficiency) can produce employment. Since when has government done anything efficiently? At a time like this, this is a recipie for economic depression.

Americans, especially our children, are becoming increasingly unaware of what free market capitalism is. Free market capitalism will die in America under the Obama administration.

Remember it's our "patriotic duty" to pay more in taxes as per The Office Of The Vice President Elect.

Gird your loins people....Obamama in charge now.

only politicians believe...
...that if a little (money, regulation, whatever) moves something in the wrong direction, that a LOT will make it reverse course.

and no politician ever lost an election by underestimating the intelligence of the American voter.

Don Juan
"Finally, we should aggressively promote family planning throughout the world, including abortion"
Why don't you put your theory into practice and abort yourself.


Ron
Don't you know that we'll get cheap steel from Asia and it will just be their air that's getting and dirty and America's clean air from our shutdown industries will save the planet.

I love the Disney-like commercial where the young lady is told by the middle aged business man that his superiors don't eat granola (not tree huggers) and she replies that they'll save 40% on their $18 mil energy bill. Then the colors explode with tree vines and small animals and music and he mumbles, "Where do I sign?"

The savings will be from less business not any green initiative. You can save by doing things smarter =and if there greener, fine. As a matter of fact green is not about low lying fruit its about lib opportunities in an upside down American world.

I'm not sure how to take Dr. Sowell's
last sentence. Does he mean BO will definely ruin the economy with Bush as his Hoover-like scapegoat or that he hopes BO follows the indicators and not be FDR to Bush's Hoover?

DEAR JUAN

.....How's the weather in IL? ...don't forget that everytime wind chills drop below zero, blizzards and ice storms paralyze the State ...that it is all caused by the Republicans and Global Warming ...

.....Keep voting for good Democrats like "Little Dick" Durbin and pushing for more wind farms so that we can keep our oil in the ground where it belongs ...Go Green ...your friend .....AL GORE

Yo, Ken
Any idea what the dim Congress has to do with the last two years or do you have a pair to inquire?

Thomas
"Let's start at square one, with the stock market crash in October 1929."

And FDR didn't become President until three and a half years later. The economy died under Hoover, a Republican.

You should have been so tough on the Republicans from 2001-2007! They doubled the size of the Department of Education, increased pork-barrel spending from 3,000 to 14,000, added another whole layer of entitlement spending (MedPrescD) that costs $50 billion a year, mandated $4 billion a year in ethanol subsidies, are planning a moon colony, and have been engaging in a social-engineering project in the Middle East that is costing our country $120 billion a year.

All paid for with tax cuts and a mountain of debt. The past eight years has seen more debt piled onto the national credit card than the previous 210 years. This policy of spending more than you have is what helped the world's financial system to implode.

The first one hurt
This recitation and analysis of the facts proves the axiom that if the government sets out to help you, you will be the first one hurt.

Commie FDR
FD Roosevelt was a Communist by any other name. He had known Soviet spies surrounding him (Algier Hiss, Owen Latimore) just to mention a few.
One of the top "main Stream media" moguls "I F Stone" got busted by the "Venona Project". The Communist have been at this for a long time and they are very effective.

Thomas Sowell is one of the few that tells us the truth that America desperately needs to hear.

America must wake up soon, or not at all. The "Commies" aren't coming, there already here.

Keep upthe good work Mr. Sowell.

Ken92:
You love Bush and you know it.......

Open your eyes, the Democratic politicians are selling us out as much as the Republican politicians are. If you think anything will change under President Obama who changes his policies one day to the next depending upon whose voting block he wants in his pocket, you're delusional.

I urge you to drop your liberal pom poms and join the rising conservative movement, reject liberal and RINO "principles" that got us into this mess and help take our country back.

Renounce the Democrats and Republicans.

Free yourself, embrace true conservatism.

An Even Greater "Great Depression"?
Government: George Washington called it a “dangerous servant and a fearful master.”

If this whole economic "crisis" is not a conspiracy it sure comes close. It's beginning to look like an advance taxing scheme that will extend our already obscene National debt.

Questions, rhetorical questions: Will the taxpayer, who is being saddled so far with a mindboggling 8.5 trillion dollar bailout ever get reimbursed? If so, how? The way I understand it so far is that money is being showered on these greedy incompetents/crooks on Wall Street with little assurance that we’ll recoup anything. I bet government can’t even track and account, accurately if at all, where the moneys are going and for what. Even if moneys will be repaid, it will be to the U.S. Treasury and, to my knowledge, no provisions in the bailout legislation addresses how the moneys returned to the treasury will be repatriated back to the taxpayer. What I strongly suspect will happen is that if by a miracle any moneys flows back into government coffers the temptation by the politico thieves will be to use the moneys to fund their programs or as a sludge fund to bail out some other government caused disaster without any of it ever returned to the originator, the taxpayer. I feel the shackles being clapped on my ankles and wrists already!

The payback, which is highly questionable, is only half the worry. The incompetent, irresponsible, if not outright criminal way the money is being spent with inadequate accounting is the other half. Anyone getting hot under the collar yet? IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!

"O" adopting FDR's tax and spend ways
We've seen the previews and now for the feature film....

"It's patriotic to pay taxes" courtesy of Joe "gaffe master" Biden..."In 1929 on television..." no wonder the socialist elect is keeping his VP elect out of the radar scope...

In the first 100 days in office FDR pushed through and got the "National industrial recovery Act" and through the "sick chicken case" SCOTUS declared it UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

FDR in his anger/frustration called SCOTUS grumpy old men and then started to disassemble and "rig" SCOTUS with his cronies and like thinkers..."O" setting up for round 2 of this same old, same old.
He's already made this public knowledge in the Saddleback debate.

The parallel that is emerging between FDR and the socialist elect is almost as good as a Disney adaptation of a favorite book...Close...very very close...

FDR got rid of the gold standard and had a tax and spend philosophy and so does the socialist elect.

The only way to intercept a lot of heartache is to get a stalemate in Congress in 2010 and from the way it looks according to AP this morning the "red" states should be picking up more Congressional seats while the "blue" states are staying the same or losing seats.
it may be the break we need to get this in check as quickly as possible.



Wow, zap
You jumped all the way from '29 to 2001 right over the 40 year dim led Congress. Speaking of, where are they and what have they been doing for two years? I guarantee that 90% of the 21st century budgets have been controlled by Teddy K pressure on McCain and NE rinos to make sure their pets get funded while the GOP has been concerned with taxes, the border and WOT. Get ready because these dims will make the Bush spending look like Scrooge.

Ken92 Location: NV
How's that whole BDS thing going? Looks like you are doing great with it.

Thomas Sowell:
You can beat em over the head with facts all day.
It does not hurt them (thick skulls) and they tend to forget history and keep repeating it for some reason. Maybe something to do with the thick skulls.

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!



champ
"that if the government sets out to help you, you will be the first one hurt."

You should say that to all those bankers with their bailout money! John Thain of Merrill Lynch received $65 million in compensation this year. He wanted a $10 million bonus. Merrill Lynch received $10 billion of taxpayers money just a month ago. Was he hurt?

Doofass:
I am just curious. Where you a nanny stater when you were in the service? Most of the vets I know are much more independent and still patriots even after the way they were treated by the Government and the aholes who were afraid to go.
I often wonder if you got splinters off your chair and your just pissed about it?

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

indyincontinent
Did someone not tell you the President of the USA for the past eight years was a Republican.

The Speaker of the House was a Republican from January, 1995 through January of just last year.

Do you know what positions Bill Frist and Trent Lott held?

Please stop playing the victim card.

It was Republicans who held all the levers of power as this financial catastrophe brewed. And they set the policy.


ZAPADDODAT

.....Yes Hoover started the ball rolling by getting the Government into the free market ...FDR picked up the ball and ran with it ...the point is that Government cannot create good markets with taxpayer money no matter which party tries it ...

.....Bush led the GOP down the primrose path by trying to beat Democrats at their own game ...he didn't do anything different than Kerry would have done except for Iraq ...

.....If Kerry had won in 2004 the GOP candidate in 2008 would have been the agent of change ...If the RNC had been smart enough to get behind MITT or Fred ...we would be on the road to recovery ...instead we are in a MINI-Depression and headed for a replay of 1932 with Bush playing the role of Hoover and Obama as FDR .....COLOSSUS

indyincontinent
When the Republicans got control of Congress in January of 1995 they took care of some friends.

Cotton Subsidies by year, Texas
1995-----$11,326,513
1996----$192,005,776
1997----$177,186,203
1998----$335,010,715
1999----$511,405,328
2000----$488,484,785
2001----$707,989,054
2002----$583,405,392
2003----$807,291,334
2004----$475,324,635
2005--$1,036,033,167

Total $5,325,462,901

That's 5 billion dollars!

Does you know that most of the cotton grown in the USA is exported. Just look at the label on your clothes for that information. Guess what country is the number one importer of US cotton?

You got it. China.

The US taxpayer is subsidizing t-shirt manufacturing in China. Is that patriotic? Tom Delay's district gets a lion's share of the handouts. Great work, Tommy Boy!


zapdoodat--tired argument
You blame Republicans for this financial disaster.

Let me repeat what I've said before: Unconstitutional government intervention in the free market is destructive NO MATTER WHO DOES IT, whether Republican or Democrat.

The "your guy does it, too" comeback doesn't disprove the fundamental assertion of the need for a free market. So, enough.

zap in MA:
Nothing will change unless the U.S. taxpayers get so pizzed off at congress and votes out all the dead wood...Democrats and Republicans alike.

Right now both parties are screwing this country equally.

Obama will work doggedly to socialize everything he can with the help of Nancy and Harry and an all to willing fiscally irresponsible congress.

Blaming one party or another is useless at this point.

Call and email your congressmen and tell them to say no to any more bailouts and increased spending on socialized pork spending.

baseballdoc
'cut taxes and spend even more' is worse than 'tax and spend.'

As we all true Conservatives know, George Bush, and now with the help of Hank Paulson, Republicans have tacked on as much debt from 2001-2008, than as in the previous 210 years of our peaceful and freedom-loving America.

George Bush, Denny Hastert, Bill Frist, Tom Delay and John Boehner massively increased the size of government during this time. They doubled the size of the Department of Education. They increased pork-barrel spending from 3,000 to 14,000 projects a year. They, believe it or not, added a $50 billion a year, additional entitlement program onto the backs of Americans. We are currently spending $120 billion a year on carrying out a social-engineering project in the Middle East.

All of these big government projects have been financed with a ton of debt. This debt is symbolic of wealth redistribution from the Republicans who ruled DC during this time onto the backs of America's children and the unborn. They never had a chance to vote, but are now saddled with a debt approaching $33,000 per person. It's all been a big disgrace to we Conservatives.

The Roosevelt Myth
Gretchen in VA, the myth of FDR was actually debunked long ago by his contemporaries such as John T. Flynn, Garret Garet, H.L. Mencken.

Sowell's Cherry Picking Facts
Here are a few additional facts:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm

What should the government do?
someone asked Ludwig von Mises. He replied. "Nothing.....Sooner"

I encourage conservatives
to go to Kos and HuffPo with changed monikers and start throwing doubt into BO's and the Dem base; not just about the war, but everything. For instance, express doubts about his ability to give tax cuts in this economy (Say, "He needs to raise taxes to get us out of the mess Bush put us in."), pull out of Iraq, & etc.

Be subtle. Blame Bush.

After he assumes the office, pretend to be an outraged liberal who feels betrayed. Start your comment with, "The Republicans left this country in a horrible mess, the people spoke and we finally got rid of them. So why does it seem that they are still in charge? I'm speaking specifically about..."

No need to be subtle. Blame Bush. Tie Obama to Bush every time an opportunity arises. I never liked Bush, but this strategy will have two effects: (1)the BO sycophants will defend BO and by default, defend Bush, and (2) demoralize the Democrat base.

Don't worry, it's not hard to pretend to be a liberal. Don't think, feel.


zap:
Listen to anything Obama says, does he encourage free market capitalism or does he favor centralized governmental control of the economy?

Obama is a socialist. Sorry to burst your love bubble for Barry.

Hawkeye58
Geez, try to not mangle your credibility with misusing FDR's quote for Pearl Harbor with his words regarding the Depresssion "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself."

What an idiot.

Dave
Sorry to burst your bubble.

Read my lips. It's not about spreading the wealth. It is about wealth DESTRUCTION.

Under Bubba's reign the stock market tripled, mostly, because the sound "tax and spend" policies of the 90's was eventually going to bring the deficit to zero.

Under George Bush and the Republican Congress' 'reign of error' the
outstanding national debt has more than doubled in a mere eight years. The stock market has lost 20% of its value due to the Republican mantra of 'cut taxes and spend even more.'

Don't forget, the entire war in Iraq has been financed by sending IOU's to China, UAE, Japan, Singapore, Saudi Arabia to name a few. This is wealth-redistribution from Americans to foreigners, plain and simple. And you can thank the Republicans for this.

Dave
Are you talking about Socialism?

Republicans are Socialists, they just believe Big government should be free.

What a farce. It was the Republicans who added the $50 billion a year Medicare Prescription, Pard D program, while bogusly claiming it would only cost $40 billion a year.

When someone in the Congressional Budget Office wanted to inform Congress that the program would really cost $50 billion a year, the Republicans fired him.

This additional spending program was a handout to the pharmaceutical companies, on the backs of the American taxpayer.

A year later, President Bush campaigned about the looming crisis in entitlement spending. What a joke, this just after the Republicans had tacked on yet another entitlement spending program, paid by dumping the entire cost onto the national credit card.

Do you think an American should be able to shop for drugs in Canada or Mexico if that's what they want to do? The Republican party says that is criminal behavior. Talk about nanny-staters!

How do we get out of this mess...

By finding, supporting, and voting for politicians that will do the “right thing” instead of the “politically correct thing”. Americans have created an aristocratic, self-serving, and corrupted political class that no longer represents the will of the people. Our only options are to send them home and install a truly elected government that does represent the will of the people. The only other option is too revolt against this corruption; however, under our Constitution that would be very difficult and would possibly bring about the anarchic mayhem we all fear.

The question then becomes; “Which is worse”? Do nothing…or take actions that will bring America back from the brink of a disaster that is over-taking it.

Write, fax, phone, and e-mail your representatives at all levels of government. Tell them just how you feel about this mess they have gotten us into and continuing to perpetuate it, can only make it worse. There is no mistake about it, our representatives are the problem.


zapdoodat
Who said Bush was a true conservative ? I voted for him twice but he let us down by being a left leaning moderate but no way a conservative.

The Republicans in office seem to be mostly RINO's. All those in Washington are there for the power, be they left or right, NOT for the good our country.
I heard yesterday that our illustrious leaders just voted themselves a raise. I haven't had a raise in 3 years !! So now more will be taken from my income to pay these rich bast**ds in Washington.
When will Americans have enough and "storm the Capitol" and get the power back to the people not the elitists ??

zapdoodat Location: MA Reply # 66
It was Republicans who held all the levers of power as this financial catastrophe brewed. And they set the policy.

How soon libs forget. The names Barney (my boyfreind's back and you gonna be in trouble now) Franks or Chris DoDo mean anything to you?
And how about the rest of the porkers in Congress.
It was a joint op. Chump.

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

Zap in Mass.
Barney Frank has been cornholing you for so long up there in Mass. that your mind is numb.

Obama plans to outspend Bush in his first year if you total up all the entitlement spending he will slide through congress.

Dems / Repubs - zero difference, except you must like the way the Dems screw you better.

Last Saturday night
I was scrolling through the tv guide and saw a show coming on the History Channel titled, The Depression of 2008. My first thought was, WTF. I double checked the channel. Ya, it was the history channel. I watched, mesmerized, as a couple of so called economists calmly laid out the factors leading to this historic economic calamity. The things they discussed sounded like ancient history and I had to keep reminding myself they were talking about things that happened only months, sometimes weeks, ago as though it were proven history. It turns out there were two people to blame for this historic calamity and one idea. The people were Phil Gramm and George Bush and the idea was deregulation. Surprised? The sheer audacity of this program left me with little hope. I am starting to see what Obama really meant with the title to his book, The Audacity of Hope. Since the word audacity modifies hope, it is audacious to have hope in these times.

au·da·cious (ô-dshs)
adj.
1. Fearlessly, often recklessly daring; bold. See Synonyms at adventurous, brave.
2. Unrestrained by convention or propriety; insolent.
3. Spirited and original: an audacious interpretation of two Jacobean dramas.

audacious
Adjective
1. recklessly bold or daring
2. impudent or presumptuous [Latin audax bold]
audacity n

Sounds like a pretty good definition of what is coming.

THE GREAT DEPRESSION - 1929 - 1941

.....WWII Pulled us out of the Great Depression because our factories needed workers for the war effort and we began selling arms to our allies ...

.....After the war, the economies of our competetiors in World Markets, Japan, China, Germany, England & Europe were devastated while ours was intact, so we prospered ...

.....If the Great Depression lasted for 12 years and it took WWII to get rid of our competition in World Markets ...then what is it going to take to get us out of the coming Depression of 2009 if it lasts 12 years (2021)? ... are we going to need another war? .....COLOSSUS

zapdoodat--tired argument
It appears we share this view: that government should NOT be in the business of meddling in the free market by bailing out using our tax dollars failing companies.

You must be a free market guy. Or is it that you like government intervention, you just don't like it when any Republican has his fingerprints on it?

Why do
Presidents always get ALL the attention and the Congress/Senate get a free pass?

One would think the President has untold powers to manipulate the winds and waves to his every whim. I think that as a nation, we let our Congressmen and Senators get away with whatever they want. We focus everything on the President. Is that really who deserves ALL the blame?

(I refer to now, the 1930s, the next 8 years...all of it)

Let's not forget that OBAMA's
number one job is to . . .
GET RE-ELECTED!

AND -- he has already said on many occasions that he cannot worry about the deficit for a while -- too many problems to fix with money.

Does anyeone see a terribly disturbing trend here??

FDR II is on the way.

World War II
Can you tell me why world war 2 ended the depression? Taxes for the wealthy and corporations were taxed at a higher rate than at any other time in history. The rate of GDP to Government spending was also a all time high.



baseballdoc:
".....If the Great Depression lasted for 12 years and it took WWII to get rid of our competition in World Markets ...then what is it going to take to get us out of the coming Depression of 2009 if it lasts 12 years (2021)? ... are we going to need another war?"
________________________________________________

According to the next administration massive government intervention on scales never seen before will lift us out of this depression.

See now....isn't that a simple answer?

Next problem.

Yo Zappa whatever
If you think you're upset, we conservatives see red (pun intended), when looking at Bush's often interventionist, anti-capitalism policies he has enacted. You'd think all presidents would hire economists who look at the economy with objectivity, like Dr. Sowell and follow economic policies that have been time proven to be successful, and avoid the "feel good" policies of those who are just looking to be re-elected.

Finally, someone is correcting the mis-information about our economic history. Roosevelt's aid was reported to have said they intended to put economic policies (govt. give-aways) in place that would ensure Democrat victories forever.

O.'s Post of 10:21 AM bears repeating:
"An Even Greater "Great Depression"?
Government: George Washington called it a “dangerous servant and a fearful master.”

If this whole economic "crisis" is not a conspiracy it sure comes close. It's beginning to look like an advance taxing scheme that will extend our already obscene National debt.

Questions, rhetorical questions: Will the taxpayer, who is being saddled so far with a mindboggling 8.5 trillion dollar bailout ever get reimbursed? If so, how? The way I understand it so far is that money is being showered on these greedy incompetents/crooks on Wall Street with little assurance that we’ll recoup anything. I bet government can’t even track and account, accurately if at all, where the moneys are going and for what. Even if moneys will be repaid, it will be to the U.S. Treasury and, to my knowledge, no provisions in the bailout legislation addresses how the moneys returned to the treasury will be repatriated back to the taxpayer. What I strongly suspect will happen is that if by a miracle any moneys flows back into government coffers the temptation by the politico thieves will be to use the moneys to fund their programs or as a sludge fund to bail out some other government caused disaster without any of it ever returned to the originator, the taxpayer. I feel the shackles being clapped on my ankles and wrists already!

The payback, which is highly questionable, is only half the worry. The incompetent, irresponsible, if not outright criminal way the money is being spent with inadequate accounting is the other half. Anyone getting hot under the collar yet? IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!

Nancy & Harry
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid have already gotten us there by destroying $6 trillion in US net worth in two short years. Oshama will only destroy more, with their "aid".

James OH
I think that as a nation, we let our Congressmen and Senators get away with whatever they want

Damm fine point and as a nation we need to all push and impose our will for term limits.

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

How WW2 ended the depression
We put so many men and women in uniform, and our factories were cranking out vehicles, guns, ammo, beans that we went from high unemployment to a shortage of employees. This is really the first time in US history that women left the house in great numbers to work in the factories. This is the time when the US seen wage fixtures (to prevent a bidding war for employees), company provided health care (to get around the wage fixtures), victory gardens (to make sure there were enough beans) ect.

Then after the war the US was really the only major manufacture left in the world that was intact. So our factories turned the tank assembly lines into tractor assembly lines, we started exporting all the food that we couldn't consume, and we rebuilt Europe. Japan just chugged along until a guy named Dr Demming came along and taught them how to mass produce.

Not to mention the Soviet Union exploding a nuke and starting the cold war that lasted for decades, Korean war, Vietman war ect.

You wait WW3 will be by far the worst. And the US will be the center. You don't build roads 4 football field wide right through the center of a country to move goods and produce. You build roads like that to move armies and have ready made runways for fighter and bombers to land/take off-expecially when there is a pipeline conveniently running along side of it.

This one will be worse
This will go down in history as "The Greater Depression" & will see the end of the United States.

In '29, most Americans lived on farms, the tax burden was light & the savings rate was high. We had a comparatively young population & since there was no Social Security, the elderly either worked or depended on family. Furthermore, money was tied to gold & silver.

Now most of our population is urban. This means that hunger and even starvation will be rampant. We have a very high tax rate & no savings. We have an aging population who are almost totally dependent on Social Security. And our money is worth less every day.

In '29, the government was in debt, but no where near the staggering level of governmental debt today. In '29, personal debt was very low. Today, personal debt is a way of life.

The world, and our nation along with it, is about to experience near-total economic collapse as the effect of fiat money & socialist polices come home to roost. Our government will collapse along with the currency.

This is not a bad thing. We no longer have enough common interests to make continued union worthwhile. I have no desire to have my laws made by people in California or Massachusetts. I am sure they feel the same thing about having their laws made by the people of Tennessee.

It worked back then

Pistol Location: FL
Reply # 78
Date: Dec 23, 2008 - 6:33 AM EST
What saved us was the destruction of our competition and the goods and profits we built in the 50's. The same war crushed England France and Germany as players on the world stage.

=======

Well now, we pulled 12,000,000 men at their highest productive age, from the work force, took them off the payroll, and sent them to war.

We quit building auto, and all those other gadgets available for purchase, and changed the products made in those factories from things for better living, and instead produced guns, bombers, tanks, and bombs, which were all made to throw away, and never be used again.

The people who did that work, was Rosie the Riveter most of whom had never had a job before, but performed with perfection.

Billions of dollars worth of products were invented, designed, manufactured, shipped across the ocean, and thrown away.

But when the war was over, we quit making and throwing things away, and made the "simple" change from building B-24s to making a Chevy.

When those men came back, they went to college, married their Sweetie, bought a house, bought a car, and off we went as a highly competitive society.

And then we spent billions helping the destroyed countries in the rest of the world, rebuild their country and their economy.

But I don't recommend this as a good way to get out of this financial mess.

Doc.bitterownerclinger
Amen to term limits! AND Congress should not have a pay raise or cost of living raise while the country is in a recession.

aspacia wrote of me:

'Geez, try to not mangle your credibility with misusing FDR's quote for Pearl Harbor with his words regarding the Depresssion "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself."

What an idiot.'

Yes you are. The misattribution was intentional and purposely aimed at Biden. Only one with his level of brain power could not understand that.

Summers Location: LA Reply # 100 Date:
Amen to term limits! AND Congress should not have a pay raise or cost of living raise while the country is in a recession.

Agreed! But any of these ideas will only be imposed by the will of the people.

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

A False Prophet or A False Illusion?
The Bible states that countries will be brought to their knees through famine, disease, immoral acts, corruption, killings (abortins), wars and rumors of wars, etc. and then a False Prophet will make things all better for awhile and the people will worship him as he walks on water and they believe he is the chosen one or the messiah and chant to him, but his intent is to turn on the people and then his true colors shall contort into a evil socialist marxist agenda for those who don't march to the same drum beat - could this story be true today?

SINCE
The government is using American taxpayers money for 'bailouts' we didn't pay taxes to do, then the government is using us as a 'bank'. Banks 'charge' interest, therefore, the government 'owes' each and every taxpayer interest on that 700 billion and I suggest we, the American taxpayers set the interest rate that the government must pay us at 50%, which would eliminate our having to pay taxes at all. Maybe then, government would become frugal and efficient with our tax dollars in the future.

Our recession and economic collapse

Are Bush's fault! And the nuts who voted him in.

1. housing ownership bubble. sluggish income growth, and lax regulation played in producing the housing crisis.

I was born
in 1929 and vaguely remember how difficult life was during the depression. Government intervention was a temporary solution but really didn't help matters. When we were drawn into WW II our economy thrived despite shortages and rationing. Now we have the usurper-elect planning massive government intervention under the pretext of creating millions of new jobs. Who will these new jobs go to? Will the current unemployed get first crack at them? Will the illegals be eligible for them?
I await with breathless anticipation of what 2009 is going to bring to us.


FDR an idiot
For some reason people revere FDR. He was an idiot, and an arrogant one at that.

First, he thought that the capitalism was dead and old fashioned. He preferred socialism/communism ala his hero Josef Stalin.

He did not have a clue as to what he was doing. He raised taxes and raised high tarriffs killing trade with any country. His capital gains taxes were about 80%. Who in their right mind would invest in such an environment? BTW no one did.

FDR's sheer arrogant stupidity caused the suffering of millions of people from 1932-1941.

FDR should be regarded as one of the biggest failures as a president.

Rose

What you just described could be the situation on earth at every time. Things have been far far worse many times in America and the world.

Bush the first 20% president

Bush, with the lowest approval rating in history, gave us this sort of scene..

"The global financial system was teetering on the edge of collapse when President Bush and his economics team huddled in the Roosevelt Room of the White House for a briefing that, in the words of one participant,

“scared the hell out of everybody.”



All By Design
Our government is doing this to us on purpose. They want to control our healthcare and businesses. When they control our healthcare, they control our lives. Are you gonna protest the government when you have to contact the government to see a doctor? If you do, they can (secretly) punish you in a number of ways. Just look at all our politicians. They are gleeful, fat, rich and happy. Americans are losing their jobs and homes and all our politicans just gave themselves raisies! They keep pushing "green" and "global warming" nonsense so they can pass environmental legislation so they can control your business and tax you to death. The media keeps screaming "crisis" and "bailouts" so people will look to the government for a solution. The people who run our country are traitors. They are criminals. They are liars, all of them. They want you and me to hurt. It makes them smile. They get more powerful. Have a Merry Christmas, everyone. Nomatter what happens, keep a positive attitude. See ya'll in the soup lines!

Taft # 105 and 109
Subject: Our recession and economic collapse

Are Bush's fault! And the nuts who voted him in.

Don't be a dum dum. See my post #84
It was a joint op. Chump.
Also, peso george might be at 22%, but what was the congress rats again? Like maybe 9%? AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
Stop it or people will start mistaking you for wobbie.

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

Taft wrote:

'Subject: Our recession and economic collapse

Are Bush's fault! And the nuts who voted him in.

1. housing ownership bubble. sluggish income growth, and lax regulation played in producing the housing crisis.'

Oh wise one...when will you reveal to us the three things that will make up 2. ???

If printing all this money to keep
interest at 0 to ineffectually *goose* borrowing regenerates inflation, we'll have Carter and not FDR:

high inflation,
eventual high interest as a response,
high unemployment,
all of which = stagflation--the bane from 76-82, when Reagan cut tax rates.

When FDR started tinkering, the US had no debt, no deficit, no service on interest for the debt, and few of the regulatory burdens business carries now. A good case could be made by the auto industry that gov't itself through its CAFE standards, safety requirements, and oppressive taxation has made Am. cars unprofitable.

Everything O does will be wrong: stimulus packages that have proven they don't work;
high taxation that suppresses business productivity and hiring;
strong union support which also suppresses hiring;
idiot MGW taxes, fees, surchases on energy, that hinders all progress;
other protectionist measures which guarantee depression in exports, which have until recently been one bright spot in the ec.

Save, save, save. Write DC daily that we need drilling, energy independence, and gov't disinterest in our individual lives. The best gov't governs least, something that hasn't functioned since Coolidge.


Taft
And your democrat led congress is at 9%. Which is less than half of Presidnet Bush's!

George Patton Jr. III
But, don't we get the government we deserve? It's about time we stop watching the msm, especially Fox, and taking our government back.

If your related to the first Patton, you must be very proud!

Buckskin
The latest poll I saw had it more around 23%.

Doc.bitterownerclinger
Barry's frienemy HiLarry has announced that she will be 'enlarging' the State Dept. Now that should be interesting.

Taft
And just what poll was that?

Hey Renny! Excellent
post. However it's going to be very hard to convince those who voted for the soon-to-be usurper-in-chief to realize that they followed a pied piper. No experience, no substance. The first time he is faced with a military crisis like the one impeached Will'yam faced in Somolia, will he react the same way?
He needs our prayers.


Buckskin
Looks like I was wrong. They said that on the news the other day.

They know it too
It is generous to assume that liberals do not know that FDR made matters worse, and that Hoover was the pin cushion for their own mistakes. They know that FDRs policies caused most problems in the Depression - they know this because they wish to repeat it. Already, they are blaming deregulation for the market problems even though no deregulation took place - they have already set it up so that they will be able to blame somebody when they fail. The problem is that anyone around with FDR was either censored or jailed if they spoke out. BHO will have a harder time with this I hope.

Taft forgots AGAIN
1. housing ownership bubble. sluggish income growth, and lax regulation played in producing the housing crisis.'

2- All host of perps who took contribution's from fannie mae and others (payola) like Franks, DoDo, Obamba, Jamie Gore Lick, and a host of others. Rino's and Demorats!
Wobbie stop that! Oh sorry, it's you Taft.

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

ken92 Too young to remember carter?
Congress voted, the Iraq invasion was legal, get over it. Take your meds.

Summers sayz:
Barry's frienemy HiLarry has announced that she will be 'enlarging' the State Dept. Now that should be interesting.

Let's hope it does not get as big as her A$$!

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

To Taft
Please Explain This:

"The global financial system was teetering on the edge of collapse when President Bush and his economics team huddled in the Roosevelt Room of the White House for a briefing that, in the words of one participant,

“scared the hell out of everybody.”

It sounds like your saying the economy was close to collapsing (which it was) and Bush got his economic team together, but at least one of them got the "hell" scared out of them.
So, what's your point?

Taft
writes, "The global financial system was teetering on the edge of collapse "

Ooh. Who leaked this juicy quote, somebody got the hell scared out of them? Btw. What is up with the darn teeter totter metaphor everyone likes to use? Just a little too much weight here or there and we all slide off into the abyss? We should all move away from the edge, I suppose.

Rich
It means this.

Eight years of Republican 'cut taxes and spend even more' philosophy coming to fruition. Did you know that the Speaker of the House was a Republican from January, 1995 through January of just last year?

It's like a family that earns $50,000 a year but spends $60,000 a year. Each year they just get a new credit card and max it out. Sooner or later that debt will bare fruit. It usually manifests itself by said family declaring bankruptcy.

For the USA, it will mean a declining dollar, decreased American purchasing power and a decline in American economic and military power.

Summers
writes, "Barry's frienemy HiLarry has announced that she will be 'enlarging' the State Dept. Now that should be interesting."

Very interesting. Hillary is gonna get her half or more of the bureaucracy some way. A little remodel for Hill? I am sure the top French interior designers etc. are en route. No expense will be spared for the shoulda been chief executive's new digs are concerned. No expense. I bet she doesn't recycle a single thing taken from the White House.

zippy sayz:
For the USA, it will mean a declining dollar, decreased American purchasing power and a decline in American economic and military power.

We are not talking about the clintoons here, rather someone worse!

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers or permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

Doc.B
Good point! But have you ever wanted to pay for George Bush and his fellow Republicans bloviations?

Remember a few months ago when Russia invaded the Republic of Georgia? The Republicans blustered, blathered and bloviated about how Russia would surely pay for their crime against the Georgian people.

George Bush even sent a frigate to a Georgian port. The Russian soldiers gave it a one-finger salute. Evidently, a single ship did not intimidate those Ruskies.

After it all, Bush gave the Republic of Georgia one billion of the American taxpayer's dollars.

Blather, bloviate and then give away some money to make yourself feel better. A job well done!

zapdoodat
What? You turning into a fiscal conservative now? How much the government spends and how much it takes in are two separate things. Completely unrelated except the impacts of spending too much and taking in too little. The USA is not maxed out yet but, it soon will be when your heroes makes Bush and his enablers look like spendthrifts. Obama is proposing to take that 10k per year deficit and multiply tenfold. Of course, its for the economy, jobs, the children, you know, the usual list. Unions. Teachers. Enviro wackos. etc ad nauseum.

LOL.....it's great.....
when liberal, socialist policies come to fruition......lol.....another Great Depression would be very depressing to Obama supporters.....lol


This depression will be "change we can believe in".....lol.......

What will you do?
We all know that Mr BO is going to tank our economy even further w/his anticipated FDR-like plans. (I assure you I'm very pissed w/ Bush & his economic dingbats & those corrupted numb-nuts in Congress!) What are you going to do to keep food on your table, pay your taxes, & utility bills? Are you all just going to point fingers at everyone else? Is your job safe? What will you do if you get laid off? Are you going to sit on your butt, collect welfare or unemployment checks & drool? I want to hear some answers that we as individuals can do to survive this political mess that has been going on for yrs. Personally, I've cut down on all excessive spending, pay the bills on time, save more, & will invest in very conservative vehicles that will not be govn't backed. I don't trust the govn't w/any money including my own.

Hitchhiker
"How much the government spends and how much it takes in are two separate things."

Yeah, and deficits don't matter.

All the borrowing and spending, borrowing and spending and more borrowing and spending during the George Bush years has, in itself, had the ability to raise tax revenues.

Here's how, for example, borrow $400 million from China, then, Congress decides we need a critical infrastructure investment project like "a bridge to some island, populated with 40 people, somewhere in Alaska."

The U.S.A. borrows the money, pays the workers, and the workers pay income tax. If the construction company is unlucky, it may have to pay some corporate tax too. This is one project, now multiply all the above by 14,287. Feel free to pick another country to borrow from.

Feel free to double the size of the Department of Education. Feel free to increase entitlement spending with Medicare Prescription (part D), and free to spend $150 billion on two wars, every year, and, in general, feel free to increase domestic spending across the board. Well, sorry, I lied, cut Amtrak, but who needs mass transit when the President tells us, "we are addicted to foreign oil as never before."

The USA went from a deficit of $5 to $11 trillion the past seven years. It only took 200 years to get to $5 trillion. This total outstanding debt works out to about $37,000 per person in the USA. Now those tax cuts do feel good at the moment, but is there any upper limit to our nation's credit card?

zippy # 127
Subject: Doc.B
Good point! But have you ever wanted to pay for George Bush and his fellow Republicans bloviations?

No, none in the Government, not one. Truth is we need to throw all the bums out and start over.
Have you ever noticed I usally call him "peso george?" The reason for that is I like to spread the blame around. But given the way Obambi talks about talking with people like I'manutjob, I still think peso george had the better idea. You can NOT appease aholes and that has been proven through out history time and again!

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

Surrender to common sense.....
...and acknowledge the historical record of government failure? With the Democrats in office; not a chance, Dr. Sowell.

We're talking unimaginable power in the making with millions of soon-to-be dependent sheeple ready to be shorn. The new lefty egos in congress and in the oval office aren't about to pass up on this opportunity.

A case in point: Tens of thousands of climage scientists have strongly disputed the glo-bull warming nonsense as a man-made problem. The Democrats are ignoring the truth wholesale.

The government regulations that will be implemented to curtail the pretend, coming soon to a sky near you, disaster will cost the economy trillions of wasted dollars, and more cost to daily living.

Still, the Democrats rise.

Thanks for the common sense and logical article, Dr. Sowell. It could save us, but tens of millions of people prefer to worship at the feet of a government master than to do what's necessary to save the economy and get working again.

I can't believe how people are slobbering over hussein obama. Really, it's surreal.

Thankful for FDR
I'm probably not politically correct but I thank FDR everyday for Social Security. If it wasn't for him I would have had to work for someone (if I could have found a job) until I dropped dead!

I retired at 70 after 36 years as a pool/landscape contractor. Just in time too! I wouldn't have had any work the following year---the economy tanked and I would have lost my business, while the banks' CEO,s left with multi-million dollar bonuses.

Also, if it wern't for Medicare, I would have had my house in hock for a couple of hundred thousand, leaving me with no equity for a reverse mortgage.

As it was, between S.S. and a reverse mortgage on my home of 46 years, I can make it.

Tell me again how I should have invested my money in stocks, so I would have had a nice retirement!!

Wayne

Is anyone
gonna answer the questions in my 1:03 PM post?

MAWIO DA WETARTED MORON EEDIOT
PWESIDINT OBUMA WIL SPIND MOR MONEE IN WON YEER DEN BUUSH SPENDED EN AWL UF HIZ 8 YEERZ.

Depressing to contemplate
The 1920 crash was itself triggered by ill-advised Fed & government acts.

The present financial crisis was caused by the system being loaded up with toxic mortgage-backed debt, leveraged 30:1. The toxic debt resulted from the general abandonment of creditworthiness standards, which started when the "Community Reinvestment Act" was construed by the Clinton Administration to impose a racial quota on mortgage lending. I.e. that "great economy" for which the Clinton yrs are so fondly remembered by some was the product of several bubbles, of which this was the biggest & most devastating yet. (The dot-com boom & Enron-type accounting funnies being 2 others). We are basically now paying for that wonderful Clinton economy.

Naturally the American electorate rushed to elect one of the architects of the CRA shakedown to be POTUS, & turn the government over to radical leftist meddlers. Small wonder the market has been casting votes of no confidence ever since.

For the economy to recover, the toxic debt has to be flushed out, the market has to have confidence in the rules under which it will operate, & that assets & profits won't be arbitrarily confiscated. No such confidence can exist with the radical Dems coming into power.

These "bailouts" only serve to prevent the flushing of bad debt while introducing the moral hazard, which has everybody sitting around looking for handouts instead of doing business.

Never mind the looming threat of the "climate change" dogma. "Green jobs," yeah, right.

That, & the known character & ideology of the people taking over the government, has paralyzed the market & will continue to do so for some time, at least thru the next session of Congress, & probably for the remainder of the Obama Administration. Best of all, he gets to muck around & fail to revive any real private economic activity, while blaming it all on George!

All of'em suck.
I truly don't know how anyone can sit here and blame this mess on Democrats, Republicans, conservatives, liberals, libertarians, leftists, neocons, environmentalists, or hookers. Simply put, we have stupid people who run our country. ALL OF THEM. They spend our money like druken sailors and then act like a**holes about it. You people who pin the blame on one person or group are only fooling yourselves. Are you ever gonna wake up?

Don't Tread on me
Endless Republican drivel!

For your spin to work, I would have to believe that the liberal, homosexual, Demoncrat from Massachusetts, that is both gay and liberal, has more power than the President of the United States of America.

Did you know that the Speaker of the House was a Republican from January, 1995 through January of just last year?

Did you know that the House Finance Chairman was a Republican from January, 1995 through January of just last year?

What's the point of being in the majority if, you don't exercise power?

Any attempts of Republican reform of Fannie and Freddie the past decade was about taking power from those two entities and giving it to Wall Street. Wall Street used an average leverage factor of 40 and Freddie and Fannie about five. It was all this over-leveraging that imploded the Financial markets.

You need to read a wider variety of sources.

Hey Dave! No one
is going to answer the questions I raised in my 1:03 PM post concerning the millions of new jobs that the soon-to-be usurper-in-chief is going to create.

GEORGE PATTON JR. III
Best post I've read in a long time.

Call, email, or fax your congressional representatives and put their feet to the fire.

Obama ain't gonna' do it.
Dems. and Reps. ain't gonna do it.

We are on our own. Survive or die.

Excellent Article, Dr. Sowell!
Of course, there is some distant logic that the market crash (if -40% is considered a "crash") made the politicians act irresponsibly, thereby making unemployment soar. So, It's not their fault --- the crash made them do it!

WILLIBEAUX:
It's simple my friend.

One of three ways:

1) Allow the free market to function on its' own without the coercive hand of Big Brother Gubmint.

2) Deport 15,000,000 illegal ailiens and let American citizens take the jobs.

3) Prez. Obama will wave his wand and sprinkle his pixie dust while chanting "yes we can!" ad infinitum.

The War - Held At Ransom For Votes!
Zapdoodat offers, "Any attempts of Republican reform of Fannie and Freddie the past decade was about taking power from those two entities and giving it to Wall Street."

Now, there's a novel idea, having a capital enterprise being run by a capitalist for profits. We should try it some day.

Of course, instead, we have captial enterprises like Fanny and Freddie being run by politicians for votes. Nice work, Frank, Dodd, Pelosi, Reid and Obama. America's capital institutions may have tanked but, the ploy was a success, you got in office! Sweet paychecks for failure!

A question...
...for all you posters claiming that FDR's Depression policies were in fact successful.

Why then did it drag on unabated until WWII broke out?! Why did recovery fail to happen during the preceding decade of peace? Why did things keep getting worse, or at least no better, for the duration?

Are you trying to say that there was something so grossly poisonously wrong in 1929 that all this unprecedented government micromanagement of the economy needed a decade to overcome it? If so, what was it, how did the New Deal finally take it down, & why did it take a decade?

Or, does the fascistic near-totalitarianism, & dismal standard of living of that time, in fact constitute what you consider success?

BTW, we can argue ourselves blue in re just what it was ABOUT WWII that ended the Great D, but the Depression definitely ended as we geared up for all-out war. Something about the conditions of those times unquestionably accomplished what a decade of govmt micromanagement showed no sign of doing.

Dave
"Allow the free market to function on its' own."

Most of the sub-prime loans made were outside the government's regulatory framework. Private mortgage companies made, by far, the most sub-prime loans. They did so, because Wall Street could quickly package them up and sell them off, making a profit for everyone involved. Only banks that had FDIC insurance and are regulated by the government are subject to the Community Reinvestment Act.

How many loans was the insurance company AIG forced to give?

How many loans were Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs forced to give? Nil, they were outside the regulatory framework.

Are you telling me all those pesky credit card and home re-fi offers I got in the mail was because the government forced the companies to send them? I got dozens every week!!

Read #95


willibeaux Location: CO
Reply # 135
Date: Dec 23, 2008 - 4:05 PM EST
Is anyone
gonna answer the questions in my 1:03 PM post?
=========

Read


jim Location: CA
Reply # 95
Date: Dec 23, 2008 - 12:28 PM EST

Mac Moore
"having a capital enterprise being run by a capitalist for profits."

Like AIG, the insurance company? When they bet that Credit Default Swaps would make them money, they lost big time and came looking for a Republican, taxpayer financed bailout; 'Quick and Clean.'

Republicans have many brands of socialism of their own. Of course, they never talk about them, but nevertheless, it comes in many forms. One form is bailing out huge companies. Take AIG, for example, they have now sucked at the teat of the government sow to the tune of $150 billion. That's $500 smackeroos per American.

This Republican give-away takes money from all Americans and gives it to the executives who have successfully run AIG into the ground. AIG is the insurance giant, that once they got their greedy hands on some taxpayer's money, went to a fancy spa, got rub-downs and drank fine champagne. Executives in this fine company are increasing their deferred compensation and giving themselves bonuses. Talk about feeding at the government trough. George Bush, Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke certainly know how to take care of their friends.

In sum, it is yet another Republican example of the ruthless expropriation of wealth from the American downtrodden toiling strata to those in the upper strata.

Hey Jim! Hepp
dis ole dude. Please explain how your 12:28 PM Post answers my questions. I'm a little slow on the trigger being an old Korean War Vet (age 79).
Thanks

Mac Moore
"Now, there's a novel idea, having a capital enterprise being run by a capitalist for profits."

Aren't farmers entrepreneurs who run a business for profit? why not live by your words or just SHUT UP!

A year ago, I read “An American Life, Ronald Reagan – the autobiography.” I thought there would be no better way to learn about small government, free market conservatism than from the Maestro himself.

I was shocked to read this on pages 344 and 345.

“Through it all, the farmers who suffered most were those who had been encouraged to overproduce by the billions of dollars available in federal subsidies.”

and,

“In the farm crisis of the mid-eighties we gave farmers more billions than any administration in history. Frankly, I didn’t relish giving so much of the taxpayers’ money away, especially when we were battling to bring down the deficit. But farmers were facing a real emergency, and since government had produced many of their problems, I believed it had an obligation to help bail out the victims, then to work to return farming to the free market.”

Wow, looks like we are still BAILING out the VICTIMS 25 years later. I wish the government would treat unemployed software engineers, like me, with this kind of conservatism. I could have collected a large unemployment check every month for five years and when my job skills had deteriorated, I could be declared a “victim” and President Reagan would mandate an even bigger check, a so-called “bailout” from the federal government, perhaps several hundred grand.

And now, in the year 2008, with farm subsidy handouts and ethanol mandates approaching $35 billion a year, we are well on the way to a free market in agriculture or the FINANCIAL SERVICES industry? The bailouts are only getting bigger.

It's a big shame that the vast majority of these farm handouts go to people who are self-described Republicans and Conservatives.

The ec. was destroyed by Dems.'
Freddie/Fannie/CRA's that demanded financials loan to deadbeats and criminals money that was never going to be repaid and the institutions never recapitalized. It worked as long as prices rose but could not be sustained otherwise.

For those who blame capitalism--you cannot name a fully socialized ec./gov't that ever worked. From the USSR to Cuba, either nations collapse or starve. Sometimes both.

Semi-socialism in Europe produces such aenemic ec.'s that they run 10-15% unemployment regularly, for which we would have rioting in the streets. We're at 6.5% unemployment and pewling and whining like infants now.

When Bush had 4.36% unemployment, a 15000 stock market, and 4% GNP, I didn't see the moaners here recognizing a hot ec. They were still groaning about bad times and *the homeless*
(who will soon disappear as there were no homeless under Clinton; only Reagan and the Bush's).

And you can be thankful for Soc. Sec. and Medicare, as I am, but they are not going to last. We have an unfunded liability of %39 trillion for SS and no way to pay that obligation. So, I'd say stay on the job and plan to work forever, because the gov't cannot continue to function this way.

I wish
that Dr. Thomas Sowell was the man who became America's first black President, and not this mealy-mouthed biracial loser who now makes headlines because he has been photographed with his shirt off to show off his tawny scrawny body. We would all be better off.

test
test

I cause more problems than I solve.

willibeaux Location: CO
Reply # 6
Date: Dec 23, 2008 - 5:30 PM EST
Hey Jim! Hepp
dis ole dude. Please explain how your 12:28 PM Post answers my questions. I'm a little slow on the trigger being an old Korean War Vet (age 79).
Thanks
============

You are a youngster, just wait until you catch the incurable disease, eightyitis. My doctor says that is the best descriptive word for that problem.

Hey look again, I didn’t say it would solve whatever problem you have, I just thought it would be of interest, based on what I could remember you were looking for.

Just remember, I cause more problems than I solve.

But don’t knock the Korean war. Maybe it wasn’t the greatest thing for those who suffered and died, but for me that was the greatest international incident that ever happened.

When I was recalled to the Army, I told a friend that I had nobody to kiss goodbye. She gave me the phone number of the most beautiful lady the world has ever seen, and she was mine, or was it that I was hers, for the next 55 years.

Gold
Obama can't print gold, but, like Roosevelt he can confiscate it for the greater good!

The MSM and the Economy
The MSM is working overtime to destroy the nations hope for the economy. This is done primarily to discourage the public and push them to placing the blame on President Bush. The MSM cannot find enough negative items to bring to the publics attention. We can be assured that as soon as President Bush leaves office, the MSM will immediately shift their emphasis to an improving economy.

The number of Americans who have or will loose their jobs, their hopes, their ambitions, their life savings because the MSM hates President Bush is overwhelming. But, the majority of those in the MSM who continue to discourage the American public, feel safe because others of their ilk control who in their industry retains their jobs. Can you imagine any of the talking heads of the alphabet channels being fired because the economy is in a foul shape, caused in a great part by these same talking heads?

williebeaux Honey Chile
Merry Christmas to your sweet self and your sweet wife! Enjoy!

To zapdoodat
First of all I didn't know you were Taft. Second of all you still didn't answer my question. And lastly, if you are trying to tell me the current economic crisis is secondary to an increasing national debt then please educate yourself from MIT Economics Professor Simon Johnson and former head of the International Monetary Fund at his web site:

http://baselinescenario.com/

And also explain to me how Tarp (which is more deficit spending) was responsible for preventing total economic collapse in Oct 2008. And yes the economic bailout did prevent economic collapse.

From a former employee at Lehman Bros on Oct 7, 2008:

"With banks losing money by the billions seemingly every week, lending (credit) CEASED! Now NASA we have a problem – with out the “credit” markets functioning all major companies stood to run out of “cash”, effectively choking financially and going out of business in a matter of months. I’m talking companies the likes of McDonalds, American Express, Boeing, GE, Kodak, American Airlines, Verizon, AT&T, Con Ed, Time Warner, Viacom, Disney, etc. Colleges and Universities, Football, Basketball & Baseball teams, etc. Cites and States would shut down, as many government employees fired or furloughed – including Police, Firemen, and Teachers. As a matter a fact Google Vallejo Calif and see if they’re able to pay their bills"

So, my advice, zapdoodat and you other liberals is to educate yourself before posting.

True Fiscal Conservative
The last two years, Sarah Palin presided over a state budget awash in high oil price revenues. She faced a legislature that wanted to spend all that extra dough. She said NO! She took out her red pen and used her line item veto to cut unneeded programs, to scale back over-funded programs and to hold the line on programs that didn't need a massive increase. She put the extra money in the Constitutional Reserve Fund. The legislators howled because the money wouldn't be available to them.

Now the price of oil has dropped and Sarah is looking at the budget once more and in a time when government is spending like mad, she proposed a seven percent spending reduction and turned down a proposed $25000 pay raise.

This woman sits at the head of a state that necessarily relies on government spending. The federal gov't and Native corporations own 99% of our land and the environmental lobby controls licensing for almost any capital project in the state, preventing the growth of a strong free market. She had the discretion to spend the money and she didn't. Now, she could simply take the money from the "savings" accounts and fund gov't at current levels, but she's asking for a spending reduction and putting her money where her mouth is by turning down a proposed pay raise.

That's a fiscal conservative! If you want to know how to do it right, watch her! Alaska can't be free market, not until we get our land and resources back under our control, but we have a fiscal conservative at the helm and she has so far kept the promises she was elected on.

Irony
Dr. Sowell is a highly intellectual economist. It is too bad that some of the posters' on this thread have an IQ that would challenge the hat size of Dr. Sowell.

Instead of using foul language and personal attacks it would be beneficial if the discussion is kept to the topic at hand. However that might be too much to expect from individuals whose "grey matter" (that's the brain) is stained by the RED color of Marxism & Socialism.

Voteright
The tough is the book Sowell is pimping is regarded in academia as junk. The important thing to remember in these bad economic times is that the republicans screwed us over good.

To Taft
Yeah academia like Bill Ayres and his ilk. I wish the conservatives in academia would come out of the closet and stand up for the idealogy that they believe.

Voteright
Ayers is a creep, but he doesn't represent Academia. I can't see conservative professors, or any professor in our universities, being cowed by the main stream. All one asks is good scholarship and to provide the facts, something Vedder and Galloway don't do.

Taft
Ayers is more representative of academia that most think.

Law schools and business schools teach people how to take care of themselves in the short term and to hell with the long term damage to society.

AN elderly neighbor of mine asks, "Have you noticed that the worst economic crisis of our lifetime was set off by people with the highest education? If they're all so smart, how come they're so dumb?"

I hadn't thought of it that way, but he has a point.

The meltdown began with the subprime-mortgage folly, when the political establishment pushed the real-estate industry and its bankers to grant mortgages to buyers who couldn't afford them.

The chief architects of the disaster were the officers at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, urged on by politicians and monitored by negligent regulators.

Here's a list of some of the main players and their academic credentials:

James Johnson: He was Fannie Mae's chairman and CEO from 1991 to 1998, boasting that the company was doing well and "serving a public function at no cost."

It was then discovered that Fannie Mae had improperly deferred $200 million in expenses, allowing Johnson and his cronies to walk away with huge bonuses. Johnson took down $21 million.

His credentials: A master's in public affairs from Princeton University, later a member of its faculty.

Franklin Raines: Served as Fannie's chairman and CEO from '98 until he took "early retirement" in '04, when he was accused of promoting massive accounting shenanigans enabling him and others to earn huge bonuses.

Raines left with a $90 million payout. He set in motion the subprime avalanche resulting in charges of "pervasive and willful" earnings manipulation, lax controls, perverse incentives, unjust bonuses.

Raines is a graduate of Harvard Law and was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford.



To Taft (continued)

Jamie Gorelick: Vice chairman of Fannie from '97 to '03, serving alongside Raines. In an interview with Business Week in 2002, Gorelick said, "We believe we are managed safely. Fannie Mae is among the handful of top-quality institutions." A year later, regulators accused Fannie of a $9 billion accounting scandal, of which she was a prime beneficiary.

She walked away with $26 million.

Gorelick's education: A BA ("magna c laude") from Harvard and a JS ("c laude") from Harvard Law.

Taft (cont'd)
The statement about Johnson, Raines and Gorelick is quoted from New York Post.

Caused by the Banks
The Great Depression was caused by the banks when they raised the interest rate and reduced the money supply after the stock market crash that was caused by manipulation of margin calls and rumor. Much the same, the banks are refusing to loan money now. It was not caused by a lack of regulation by a government that has no idea what is involved in the businesses it is attempting to regulate.

FDR's programs worked because they put money back into the pockets of the population which creates 70% of the economy.

The current economic problems have been caused by an exponentially increasing maze of regulations that have been put into place since the Great Depression. This nightmare has become unmanageable with regulators not being able to predict what good and bad results will occur in different industries when another regulation is put in place. It's a guessing game and they don't have the skills or knowledge of the industries they are attempting to regulate to even make and educated guess.

Where FDR made his mistake was that he did not downsize the banks to their proper role in the economy. If he had done this we would not be spending $7 trillion of our children's money trying to save them.

http://ewebsmith.com/Finance/7trillion.html


ZAP, the broken record
ZAPdoodat is really Barney frank's limp wristed chief of staff and a paid political hack. Not an ounce of blame will ever cross a dimbocrat desk. It is always Bush, Hastert, Frist, DeLay,etc. etc.....Ignore the fool, please.

We make the mistake of caring what any of them think if they are completely unwilling to assign any of the the discredit equally to the leaders in BOTH parties that have sold us down the river. We have certainly all had our issues here with GW and are looking forward to his departure.

Buying votes with printed and borrowed money is wrong. Bush is certainly guilty of trying. But he got precious few votes for all of that money. Obama promises much more of the same. Liberals can be bought. But not by phony conservatives. Only by true big govt. lefties. The authentic cheats.

I will ask again, why do the trolls hate GW? , he is just Obama light... What is the difference?

para_dimz
Smoot-Hawley was signed by Hoover on June 17, 1930, fully 8 1/2 month and by some accounts 10 months after the onset of the Depression. It raised tariffs by 2 1/2 percent over the already existing tariffs. Between 1929 and 1933 total GDP fell by almost 50%/~$48B while the drop in combined exports and imports was a bit >50%/~$6.5B. There hardly exists evidence that the tariffs were significant in their effect. para_dimz

=====================

It was the catalysis. The Smoot Hawley tariff (that was opposed by over 1,000 economists)prompted many countries to retaliate with their own increased tariffs on U.S. goods. Because of this American exports and imports plunged by more than half.

zapdoodat
writes, "Republicans have many brands of socialism of their own. Of course, they never talk about them, but nevertheless, it comes in many forms. One form is bailing out huge companies."

At last count there are 23 forms of republican socialism. Sorry, you're not invited to the secret meetings. I believe number 13 is up next time. I could list them here but, you know, they're watching.

Dr. Sowell and Dr. Williams

Dr. Sowell,

I have a job for you, and I would love to get a comment from someone who knows more about this than I do, and that includes many of you.

We already have the FBI, called the Federal Bureau of Investigation, we have the CIA, and a whole variety of investigators who are a work trying to predict, and prevent terrorists attacks.

I propose a new Bureau, that would be called the Financial Bureau of Investigation, with Dr. Sowell and Dr. Williams sharing the title of the “J Edgar Hoover” of this new organization.

The idea is that we would have experts stationed all over the USA, and residing in our Embassies in all major Countries, whose job would be to predict and prevent financial attacks.

It would be difficult to compare the death of 3,000 people at the Twin Towers, with the people who suffered great financial loss in this financial mess, but why not try to prevent such financial terror in the future.

Don’t tell me it is impossible. Even I predicted this problem, but not to this high degree, a couple years ago, but when I mentioned to a Banker, he said, “But don’t tell anyone, they may change the law.”

But I want to tell someone and change the law as needed. The financial problems we have every 10 years or so, can easily be predicted, discovered, and corrected, if somehow had to duty to predict it, and the power to keep it from happening. The cost would be less than the cost of one bank failing.

And I do want to hear from … … …

zapdoodat
On farming subsidies:

I agree there shouldn't be subsidies, but in the SAME there shouldn't be federal regulation setting the price farmers get for their product.

Can you imagine trying to survive on what the fed's decide what they will *allow* you to collect for your product??

The subsidies are the government fix to their own government regulation. (which make a larger problem)

A favorite saying of mine is: Don't complain about a farmer with your mouth full.

Did you know now Congress has proposed a tax on methane farm animals? Say good-bye to your food source if the feds keep this up, farmers are already selling off to get out of a no win business.

I raise brangus cattle - I know first hand that the fed's must know this will eliminate the large animal ranchers. We simply won't afford the feed competing with the already high price/use of corn for ethanol production.

Regulatory prices, subsidies incentives, and unaffordable taxation are the tools of choice the fed's are using to eliminate the rancher - all in the name of global warming.





Jo
All Republicans are Socialists. They all believe in wealth redistribution.

Farm subsidies sky-rocketed under George Bush and Ronald Reagan. That's wealth redistribution from blue states to red states. It's nigh time to get these teat suckers off the government sow.

U.S. sugar farmers could not compete against the other countries without sucking at the teat of the government sow.

Economists have criticized farm subsidies on several counts. First, farm subsidies typically transfer income from consumers and taxpayers to relatively wealthy farmland owners and farm operators. Second, they impose net losses on society, often called deadweight losses, and have no clear broad social benefit.

The U.S. government heavily subsidizes grains, oilseeds, cotton, sugar, and dairy products.

U.S. farm programs have cost about $20 billion per year in government budget outlays in recent years. But budget costs are not a particularly useful measure of the degree of support or subsidy. Some subsidy programs, such as import tariffs, actually generate tax revenue for the government but also impose costs on consumers that exceed the government’s revenue gain.

The forms of subsidy vary by country and commodity as well. The main forms of subsidy include: (1) direct payments to farmers and landlords; (2) price supports implemented with government purchases and storage; (3) regulations that set minimum prices by location, end use, or some other characteristic; (4) subsidies for such items as crop insurance, disaster response, credit, marketing, and irrigation water; (5) export subsidies; and (6) import barriers in the form of quotas, tariffs, or regulations. Often, supply control programs such as land-idling requirements, production quotas, or similar schemes accompany price supports or other programs. In addition, the governments of most wealthier nations provide aid for agricultural research and development, promotion, and some agricultural and rural infrastructure.


WWII & The Depression
Some people think that WWII ended the Depression. It didn't -- except very indirectly. WWII ended FDR's kooky fascist/socialist experiments which eventually ended the depression.

But did WWII directly end the depression? Of course not. War is not good for the economy. If it were, all we'd have to do is draft everybody in the country & we'd all be rich.

War production is a waste of economic resources, Let say you spend $1,000 to build a bomb. You drop the bomb. What do you have? You have nothing to show for it & you may have blown up a factory somewhere else. Is there anyone who is fool enough to say that this helps anyone's economy?

Nor does drafting people to do unproductive work help the economy. If it did, WELFARE would help the economy. If GI Joe is drafted he is not producing anything of economic value. If we give Joe Lazy money to sit on his rear & watch television, he produces the same economic value -- namely none.

I'm not saying that the military isn't necessary. I was in the Army. I know we need a national defense. But let's not say that the military is good for the economy. The military is overhead, pure and simple. Part of our problem is that since WWII, we have born the cost of defending Europe & Asia. Now it's Saudi Arabia. It's time to cut overhead & bring our boys home -- from Europe, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan & the hundred plus other places they are stationed. Let them guard OUR borders & the rest of the world can bear the expense of guarding their own.

Mario..Take your potty mouth to KOS
If you can't say anything nice PLEASE don't say anything...
Didn't your momma ever tell you that?


Bill
Not to be defending Johnson or Raines but you do realize that the people who have gotten us into all this economic mess have all those prerequisites; education, degree, experience in finance, etc., don't you?
I'm kind of tired of the stuffed shirts trying to run the world.

Wayne --gov. and corp. greed
When you get to be more than 70 years old like me, you can see the 'Big Picture' better.

Check out my post #134 and see what I mean. I think too many people are standing too close to the trees to see the forest.

I would really like to believe in a totally 'free market system' with no gov. involvement; but let's face it, the middle class is screwed both by the gov. and by corporate greed--- when either has too much control (read money = power).

Mario
Nothing I wrote was a lie. Please educate yourself and start by rereading my post, which you for some reason thought you needed to repost.

Despite those limitations made necessary by federal government control of our lands, resources and infrastructure development, Sarah has acted as a fiscal conservative. Alaska isn't running out of money and that spells good news for our economic future. The discussion was "where are the fiscal conservatives." One of them is in Alaska resisting the temptation to spend money she had in order to save it for a rainy day.

Release the land, resource and infrastructure hostage, Mario, and Alaska won't need federal handouts, but as long as you and your ilk keep us tied up like hogs for the slaughter, you owe Alaskans for all the cheap resources we send your way every year. If we owned those resources and we able to charge you what it was worth, we'd be the northern United Emirates. Give us back our land and we won't need federal dollars. You'd be coming to us for loans.

Palin comment still stands
Any governor with a surplus in the budget in this time of crisis who chooses to roll back state spending by 7 percent rather than spend it all is a fiscal conservative with their head on straight. There may be one or two out there who are doing the same thing, but Sarah Palin is the only one I know of. If there are others, someone enlighten us.

zapdoodat
Republicans are clearly far less socialistic than democrats are. I agree that recent years republicans trying to become "centrists" have adopted liberal spending habits, and the GOP picked a centrist failed candidate, but are they more socialistic than democrats? No way.

Government subsidies AND agriculture market regulation both have to go. ot one without the other - unless you want farmers to go under, which would be a disaster.

Even if government didn't subsidize they'd still collect federal tax from blue states and spend it elsewhere. You're fooling yourself if you think blue state tax would be reduced.

Eliminating subsidies will increase blue states cost of food. Which perhaps is overdue. If democrats have their way they will tax the large animal industry out of business - in the name of global warming. This will have a ripple effect on not only meat consumption but dog food, medicine, tires, soap, household products etc... all made from animal by-products.

You'd be surprised what damage to other markets government interference will cause.

As always government is the problem not the solution.






Dr. Sowell
Great article! We need more like this!

What I find interesting is that, even if you go by government statistics, the GDP did not reach 1929 levels again until 1941 (and even this is deceptive, because economic activity--specifically, those processes involved in war mobilizaton--is not the same concept as the production of value).

The leftist liars are psycho to think they can get away with guilting us and fooling us into believing their false economic models in this day and age. It really is incredible if you think about it.

Economic Nationalism
Death to economic Treason!
Pack off these "Free Traitors" and send them to Dubai!
Most Americans have been Severely Hurt by this Very Costly 'free trade'. Globalism is a Failure and Economic Treason is just that,Treason! I vote my economic interest from now on until the Neo-Con's become Conservative again - Social issues be damned!

Depression Managed by Government
While the government manages the commonwealth, citizens through their productivity create the economic climate of the nation.

Webster said, "First came agriculture, then all other art and trade.”

Money is a by-product of industry for public credit to represent and transfer value in the exchange for product and service produced. When other markets fail, then back to basics. Money does not fix it; money is worthless without the product of the human hive.

The human hive, similar to a beehive, exists and thrives only where few divisive conditions of threats exist. Not unlike the beehive, the human hive exists because cooperative relations prevail.

Where we do not share mutual cultural, social standards and values, because others promote diversity and equality, neither can exist. It is a gross folly and ignorance to suppose that "diversequality" is even possible. Without complimentary moral values and standards, no society can prevail.

This is a matter of ethics, honor and integrity of each individual. If the same standards and values do not rule each of our lives, then division and chaos rule. The knowledge of principle in the law of the heart is what governs the moral compass within; there is no law that can change that, because we reap just what we sow. The economy is the consequence of moral and ethical agents working together because they have respected one to another. Promoting diversity as some new virtue destroys cooperative effort; productivity falters then fails.

These virtues: equal accountability, equal responsibility and encouragement according to our ability; foster true equality.

Another Great Depression?
Dear professor, you never take the time, in your article, to postulate on what caused the stock market crash in the first place. Could it be that the greed induced crash created such a mess that it created massive employment down the road, years after the pivotal event? Blaming political action is childish, since the market itself is a result of political action. The depressions of 1873, 1929 and 2008 were all caused by greedy social criminals and mindless economic theorists like you.

to Fred
it was the prospects of Smoot-Hawley passing (and Hoover not using his veto pen) which caused the crash.

Fred
Your understanding of economics and reality is quite childish. It is because of political activists like you, who worship government and power, that cause these things, not greedy capitalists. Tyrants, like you, sir, who are too ignorant to see the truth because you're jealous of the rich and those who are far more successful than you'll ever live to be so long as you continue to have such moronic opinions. Grow up.

I listened To Grandma ?Did You?
It is kind of silly that some younger Americans have an opinion on something they never heard of.

The great depression was worse than anything today's generation will ever suffer through.

The only people that halfway survived without money during the depression were rural Americans who grew their own food.City dwellers had no clue.

Key to Surviving
Do Not leave your money for the bankers to swallow up!! My Great Grandfathers advice continues to ring loud and clear among my family!!! Pull your money out of the banks before it is too late! Banks are broke and FDIC couldnt cover the amount of deposits in America if they tried, They are broke as well!!! In a Depression CASH is KING!

Thankful for FDR
If you will go to my post #133, you will see reality--- and not a bunch of bickering by the economical and political theorists who don't ever come to a concensus, because only by living a long time and seeing the effects of different policies and programs, can one determine what is best for all---and not just for the few who plan to make a bundle by screwing with the systems.

Basically the middle class is going to be screwed either by the government or by corporate greed---and fortunately we do have a little more control over the government--- but not much.

Dr. Sowell
Thanks for a timely and scary reminder that those who rewrite history surround us at present. We will have a huge price to pay for the $$ printing presses which presently work overtime frantically trying to bail us out of the mess ............. Congress created. We'll never read a peep about the causes, i.e. Barney Frank and Sen. Christopher Dodd!

America's own Pravda if you will!

Rarified atmosphre
I am so scared about the direction our country is headed. We are about to be lead by the very people who got us into this predicament. Are democrats all a bunch of airheads who believe everything that cometh out of the mouths of their air-headed leaders? Does the MSM believe everything that is fed to them?
I always like to read what Sowell has to say to us about the economy. He is the only one I can trust to tell us the truth. Years ago someone said that he should run for president. At that time I realized that since he does not follow the democratic line, which blacks are required to follow, he would end up just like Clarence Thomas and Bill Cosby: he would be villified by the press for some trumped-up sexual harrassment charge.

Another great Depression
Madoff was the CEO of his company(he is a Dimbulbcrap) and he has perpetrated the biggest ripoff in world history. Spain lost 3 billion dollars.Again like the 3 Dim Governors(McGrubby,Spitzer and Blogojivich)the Dims true colors have come out. A track record like that doesn't bode well for this country.
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