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Tuesday, May 27, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Mascot Politics
by Thomas Sowell
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Years ago, when Jack Greenberg left the NAACP Legal Defense Fund to become a professor at Columbia University, he announced that he was going to make it a point to hire a black secretary at Columbia.

This would of course make whomever he hired be seen as a token black, rather than as someone selected on the basis of competence.

This reminded me of the first time I went to Milton Friedman's office when I was a graduate student at the University of Chicago back in 1960, and I noticed that he had a black secretary. This was four years before the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and there was no such thing as affirmative action.

It so happened that Milton Friedman had another black secretary decades later, at the Hoover Institution-- and she was respected as one of the best secretaries around.

When I mentioned to someone at the Hoover Institution that I was having a hard time finding a secretary who could handle a tough job in my absence, I was told that I needed someone like Milton Friedman's secretary-- and that there were not many like her.

At no time in all these years did I hear Milton Friedman say, either publicly or privately, that he had a black secretary.

William F. Buckley's wife once mentioned in passing, at dinner in her home, that she had been involved for years in working with a school in Harlem. But I never heard her or Bill Buckley ever say that publicly.

Nor do conservatives who were in the civil rights marches in the South, back when that was dangerous, make that a big deal.

For people on the left, however, blacks are trophies or mascots, and must therefore be put on display. Nowhere is that more true than in politics.

The problem with being a mascot is that you are a symbol of someone else's significance or virtue. The actual well-being of a mascot is not the point.

Liberals all across the country have not hesitated to destroy black neighborhoods in the name of "urban renewal," often replacing working-class neighborhoods with upscale homes and pricey businesses-- neither of which the former residents can afford.

In academia, lower admissions standards for black students is about having them as a visible presence, even if mismatching them with the particular college or university produces high dropout rates.

The black students who don't make it are replaced by others, and when many of them don't make it, there are still more others.

The point is to have black faces on campus, as mascots symbolizing what great people there are running the college or university.

Many, if not most, of the black students who do not make it at big-name, high-pressure institutions are perfectly qualified to succeed at the normal range of colleges and universities.

Most white students would also punch out if admitted to schools for which they don't have the same qualifications as the other students. But nobody needs white mascots.

Various empirical studies have indicated that blacks succeed best at institutions where there is little or no difference between their qualifications and the qualifications of the other students around them.

This is not rocket science but it is amazing how much effort and cleverness have gone into denying the obvious.

A study by Professor Richard Sander of the UCLA law school suggests that there may be fewer black lawyers as a result of "affirmative action" admissions to law schools that are a mismatch for the individuals admitted.

Leaping to the defense of black criminals is another common practice among liberals who need black mascots. Most of the crimes committed by black criminals are committed against other blacks. But, again, the actual well-being of mascots is not the point.

Politicians who use blacks as mascots do not hesitate to throw blacks to the wolves for the benefit of the teachers' unions, the green zealots whose restrictions make housing unaffordable, or people who keep low-price stores like Wal-Mart out of their cities.

Using human beings as mascots is not idealism. It is self-aggrandizement that is ugly in both its concept and its consequences.

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Thank you Dr. Sowell
Many americans have felt this way for years, but when most try to verbalize it, they're shot down as racists.

Liberals are all about Symbolism, if you look hard at any liberal program, you'll see there's no "There" there.

But they sure feel all warm and fuzzy inside because they've raised awareness.

The sad part is, the people who need to read this the most, will be along shortly to call you names and insult your family.

As a much wiser man than me once said, "They know not what they do.".

Self Aggrandisement
Liberals who use Mascots to demonstrate their sanctity are also generally rude to others they see daily. When someone brags about their love of mankind, while mistreating people, recall that actions speak louder than words.

Truer words were
never spoken. Thank you Dr Sowell, I never looked at it that way before but, it's true. I wish more people, black and white, had the clarity of your thought process.

I don't know that it would change anything, but, maybe we could get past all the fake concern from the libs and all the "Oh poor pity me" garbage from the mascots.

Very Good Article

You have clearly outlined the biggest single failure of affirmative action,

the near universal practice of ignoring qualifications.

Dr. Sowell
is one of the most brilliant minds our country has. He has perfectly described one of the negative aspects of affirmative action.

It seems so obvious that the left is using blacks as "mascots" but few are aware of it.

LIke craftyone
I never saw it that way before, but Dr. Sowell is bang on. It takes a genius like him to see what seems obvious in retrospect.

10 Stars Dr. Sowell!!!
Simple truths, expressed simply and directly.

Liberal policies toward blacks hurt all,
not just blacks.

No it is not surprising that the policies of liberals hurt blacks. After all, these policies hurt everyone. Only some of those policies aimed specifically at blacks will hurt only blacks. In addition, these absurd policies often form the basis for wildly contorted interpretations by the liberal SCOTUS in an effort to support policies that are clearly unconstitutional power grabs by the federals. One of those policies was mentioned in the article and that was the removal of black neighborhoods and businesses in order to upgrade to expensive real estate. That was the “urbane blight” ruling that converted public use to public benefit and served as the stepping stone for Kelo and the removal of private property rights.

And
The fact that the left has those mascots throws a shadow of doubt over the minority students/workers who ARE qualified to be where they are.

Boute: Offensive in the Extreme
You take Dr. Sowell's column way out of context. If blacks had an average IQ 15% less than whites as you claim, they wouldn't qualify at ANY college.

Bu there are 1000's of colleges where blacks *do* excel.

The problem Dr. Sowell is illuminating is the practice of putting blacks into colleges where they don't qualify, simply because they're black -- NOT that blacks do not qualify. Many whites do not qualify for these same colleges; but, as he says, no one needs white students to "prove" someone else's "virtue."

The worst part of your comments is that you're exactly the kind of person that people like Anthony Thomas, Ralph Ellison, Proud Liberal, etc., will use as evidence of how horribly racist conservatives are.

Boutte
If black people are as inferior as you say, how do you explain the brilliance of
Dr. Sowell, as well as the outstanding abilities of Condeleeza Rice, Colin Powell, George Washington Carver, Maya Angelou, and Juan Williams--to name just a few.

Boute: Culture vs Color
How do we separate the effects of culture, ie the fact that many black do not place a high value on education from innate abilities. Many young men who want to get an education have to fight being called "white", if they try to break out.

I've read that a lot of the inner city black culture can be traced to certain type of white immigrants to the South. If so, a valid comparison would be between them (and I'm sure that some still live in a similar manner), and inner city blacks.


Right on
When I was in Atlanta on my whirwind tour of job applications, one place I was sent was to the Education Board. They were looking for a secretary for a Black professor who was nearing retirement, and I bet they told me six times that he was Black. (I am not Black.) Finally I told the liberal woman who was in charge of the secretarial department that I did not care if he was Black -- I just wanted to work for him. I got the job. Later I discovered that this woman was one of those you describe above. She was *careful* of the feelings of the Black employees to a degree that they found insulting in the extreme.

The last job I had in Atlanta was with a firm I will call Engulf and Devour, who took over our mid sized law firm because buying law firms is what they did (not running them, just buying them and selling them). They hired a Black woman as head of HR and bragged that she was a *twofer* and they made her the mouthpiece for all their very unpleasant business decisions (it was her job, for example, to inform us that we would never get another raise as long as we worked there, because we *already made too much money.*) Therefore, by making her both a mascot and a target, they also got a twofer: they got the points for hiring a Black woman and thy blamed all the dissension and discord on her.

College Ball player

I'm sponsoring two college kids for a collegiate baseball team I'm sponsoring. One of them drove up last night and settled in to the basement bedroom.

He is the nicest fellow whose mom and dad are still together. His dad runs his own auto detailing business and his son has paid for his community college through academic scholarships and baseball.

He was accepted to a four year college for junior year.

He is in the right place and he is making it happen through his own intiative. He went out to explore the town and called me to ask if he could pick up dinner for us and again I was surprised. When he got home he was on the phone with his Dad.

He met my roommate who leaves for Africa today to visit her children.

He looked at me with such intensity when I told im about our friendship - I can't yet fathom what he is thinking.

Oh and he is black though to me it is just an enriching detail and he is simply a hardworking, nice young man from a solid family who will make much of every talent he possesses and every opportunity given.

Just wanted to let you know I met the future and it is great.


My experience was that...
... blacks who were chemistry majors were, in general, superior to the average chemistry majors. They were highly motivated, hard working and generally excellent students. They went on to graduate and medical schools where they again did very well.

On the other hand, many of those that I encountered in the introductory general chemistry course were clearly badly prepared for college work with particular weaknesses in math. All of those students were the products of our city school systems. On a number of occasions, while I was consulting with those students, they would tell me that they had taken three years of math in high school. Yet they could not solve the simplest of algebra problems. How that is possible, I have no idea.

Ahh, Boutte......
Your disgusting post is factually wrong.

There is no discernable difference in intelligence among different ethnic groups. The difference is in the cultures in which they are raised. In the US, Asians and Jews largely value education and the family support to that end is well documented. While there are many middle and upper class Blacks who have the same appreciation for education, most working class (and lower) Blacks actively reject education to their detriment, and that of their children. The results are poor social skills and an I-can't-win attitude. If one thinks they cannot succeed, they will not. That does not speak to their native intelligence, but to their ignorance and poor judgement.

Boutte, your kind of untruth belongs on Daily kos or the huffandpuff post, not on Town Hall. If you must display YOUR ignorance and racism, please do it elsewhere.

Execellent article, but
Boutte's post, if it is not a joke, sort of undercuts the article, because if people are racist, then even if a black person is qualified, he or she will never be given an opportunity to show that he or she is qualified -- which means their only opportunity would be if some non-racist white person or black person gave them a chance. Which then comes clo9se to the idea if trying to hire a black secratary, that Sowell condemns as "tokenism." So -- is it a joke?

Concerning college mismatching...
...quite a number of people support this instance of preferential treatment out of the belief that merely attending a high-echelon school is itself a guarantor of later success. Among rational men, it goes without saying that this belief is mistaken...but given the number of people who believe it, maybe we shouldn't go without saying it.

many years ago
i do not agree with boutte, but perhaps he/she read the same article i read many years ago. i cannot recall where because i did not believe it, but there was an article in a magazine years and years ago by a supposedly intelligent doctor that there was a 15% or so difference in intelligence. it showed pictures of skulls and gave all sorts of "evidence". this may be the basis of the belief, mistaken as it is.

Obama tough love message

Obama is right about Charter Schools!

POLITICO-Taking a position that could help him win a general election, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) said in an interview that the federal government should experiment with charter schools even if some Democrats oppose the idea.

“I’ve consistently said I think we need to support charter schools,” Obama said. “I think it’s important for us to experiment in terms of how teachers are compensated — working with teachers but looking at how we can reward excellence in classrooms.”

watch


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/obama-is-right-abo ut-charter-schools

not all conservatives are stupid
unca alby please don't tar all conservatives with the same brush. some of us are intelligent and believe and have always believed the same way dr. sowell does. this is especially true of women who have been tokens themselves as they broke into traditionally mens work fields. i know, i was one. i think people grow stupid once they get to washington d.c. no matter what side they are on.

CP
Everything Dr. Sowell says about affirmative action and blacks applies to women as well. I was an early female graduate of Harvard Business School and the assumption was that I was incompetent. This was before political correctness so my fellow male classmates had no problem telling me that I was less qualified than they were or that I was taking the place of a man who should have been there. The facts were not true in my case but unfortunately, there were many women admitted who were not qualified and as a result the attrition rate for them was quite high. Affimative action does not help those who are not qualified and it harms those who are.

Bouette IS a joke
Normally scroll past his posts about as fast as one of Robert's, but sad to say I lingered today, to my dismay. Disgusting, simply disgusting.

Excellent article, Dr. Sowell, as usual. Your wisdom leaves my mouth agape, sometimes. I've been aware of this situation for years and most of the black people I know (not a lot but more than a few) are too. The ones in the dark buy into Rev Wright type conspiracies and not coincidently blame white Republicans for their victimhood.

How long will we be saddled with the touchy feely, do gooders, and race pimps? Follow the money.


Personal observations...
This brings to mind some of the Nigerians and other Africans who were classmates of mine during my undergrad & graduate years.

I was a good student, but it was all I could do to keep up with some of these guys. They showed their smarts in the classroom and in the lab, and some of them, in the years since graduation, have published more papers than I have even read. Companies pay big bucks just to know what they're thinking.

And not one of them was a result of so-called affirmative action, or "optional" entrance exams (see today's news re. Wake Forest).

Amazing...
First, minority entitlement (to what I'm still trying to figure out) is one of the key Dogmas of the Stalinist Left so attacking one of their primary opportunities to feel good amongst the niggling conscience that they really don't know what is going on is a grand head-on assault. Good. Thank you, Dr. Sowell. Perhaps it is because they find it easier to practise the religion of secularism, it is easy to lose the lessons of the fish, yet being a consultant, the advantages are clear in every business I change.
I guess it is true - the real fascism is a leftist/socialist phenomenon and it is that side of the political dimension where the real bigotry lives; the real bigotry being the one that is buried so deeply in their emotional psyche that they are in permanent denial.
And let us not confuse the behaviour people adopt to deal with everyday events with the inner quality of those people. Remember, do you not love someone whose behaviour is not appropriate on occasion? Just because people do not behave the way you think they should does not mean that they are undeserving of your agapaeic love.

MILTON didn't mention it
but you, Sowell can't help yourself.

I hope you get to the root of your troubled view and finally realize that you are obsessed with this topic and that, at your personal need to uncover Truth, you continue to pander to 1/2 of our American race...which appears to be much more color blind than you.

KateM
"I've read that a lot of the inner city black culture can be traced to certain type of white immigrants to the South. If so, a valid comparison would be between them (and I'm sure that some still live in a similar manner), and inner city blacks."

*******************

did you read Mr. Sowell's book "White Liberals and Black Rednecks"?

Boutte - not very good satire.
from a flaming leftist.

Dr. Sowell, to quote you
This is not rocket science but it is amazing how much effort and cleverness have gone into denying the obvious.

You should know that Truth [about oneself] lies in one's own words.

Talk about being a mascot
Boy Mr. Sowell you hit the nail on the head.

Talking about being a mascot. Get a reality check, if you don't think MANY of you Blacks on the right are not MASCOTS for conservatives.

Yes! I know you are there on your own merit. It is just the Blacks people on the left that are not qualified

You are revealed! Praise the Lord!
Now go, and sin no more.


God bless you.

AA is rotten to the core
I had the misfortune to teach AA kids enrolled in engineering at a major (top three) technical university. They were horribly unprepared and unable to even read and write (I couldn't decipher their papers). They were given a one or two month "orientation" as pre-freshmen in the stupid hope that it would jump-start them and make up for 12 years of substanceless affirmation in their schools.

I could only imagine how they must have felt returning to the neighborhood after being viewed as traitors and mocked by their friends as they left for what their "friends" called whitey careers.

Vouchers are a start. Free the students - end government schools.

Sowell is right again
I'm old enough to remember the days before affirmative action. When I met a minority (black, woman, whatever) in a position of prestige I knew that he or she was not only competent to be there but probably supremely competent based on vestigal bigotry. Since affirmative action, one can never be sure if the black manager, for example, is qualified or a token. This not only does a disservice to those unqualified who are placed over their head but to those many qualified whose accomplishments are illegitimately questioned.


AA is so destructive
Years ago I worked at a federal agency that was run by a 5 person board. One of the board members was a black female, who was utterly unqualified for the position. At one board meeting, she voted "no" on an item and her young assistant rushed up to her side. After a few whispers, she announced that she meant to vote "yes" on the item. Embarrassed smiles all around, as we all knew what just transpired.

On the other hand, I have had the privilege of working with scores of talented, intelligent and motivated blacks during my career. I strive to judge each and every person by their qualifications and performance. Skin color is so irrelevant. Such a shame that so many liberals cannot do the same.

Dr. Sowell is Spot On once again!

Dr. Sowell writes, "Various empirical studies have indicated that blacks succeed best at institutions where there is little or no difference between their qualifications and the qualifications of the other students around them."

Of course, and that also applied to any white or Asian student as well.

I did quite well at Syr. Univ., but there is no doubt that I might have "punched out" at MIT or Tufts.

The idea is to set up all students for "success" rather then set them up for "failure."

I remember Nellie
on Little House on the Prairie. She was very mean spirited.
Well, Nellie, welcome to Town Hall.

Dr. Sowell
You have left out how this affects the work place. My husband does a great deal of hiring in a large company. He is given quotas based on skin color and gender. And there are some people that he is not allowed to fire. Since he also manages a department he has seen over the years a huge drop in the quality of work. If someone knows they will not be fired no matter how they conduct themselves. Well, human nature is what human nature is.

Nellie are you trying to make sense?

More laser-like commentary ...
cannot be found. Our society needs more Dr. Sowell's to help eradicate the idiocy of the left and imbue the cause of conservatism with confidence. Thank you, Dr. Sowell.

PC AND RACIAL CHARADES

.....Dr. Sowell ...

.....I'm sure that you will catch heck from the Liberals who are strongly in favor of AA ...

.....Though Liberals never pass up an oppertunity to call Conservatives racists, it is they who are the racists because they discriminate between the races while seeing themselves as White Knights or Crusaders for the cause of equality ...they are always stunned and indignant when I point this out ...

.....I have been called a racist many times by "white guilt" Liberals because I do not discriminate ...I treat everyone on equal terms, neither giving nor asking quarter, accepting no excuses and expecting maximum effort from everyone, at all times .....COLOSSUS


A question I have always wanted to ask.
I have read many of Mr. Sowell's books and think this article is a great contribution to the discussion on affirmative action, but what about the positive effects? I have never been able to weigh in my own mind the fact that forty five years ago when I was a kid, blacks were not able to get most jobs. I would like to hear what Dr.Sowell thinks on balance. Granted the majority of effects of affirmative action now forty five to fifty years later are probably more divisive than curative,but what about where we as a nation were coming from post Jim Crow laws in the 1960s? Without the thousands and thousands of government jobs opened up to blacks in the last fifty years would a concrete change in the status of the black community have been possible? I personally agree that affirmative action is now questionable at best but what about what it has done to redress a bleak situation fifty years ago?

Gross generalizations
Dr Sowell, I respect your point. I think it would be an even more productive article if you didn't insinuate that all liberals are guilty of having insincere motives in their efforts to assist minorities in improving their lives, while using the examples of a few highly respected conservatives who clearly are above mascot politics to suggest that all conservatives are, in contrast, sincere. This sort of "we are virtuous and they are evil" mentality that is perpetuated by SOME conservatives and SOME liberals takes us further and further away from finding some common ground in which can all work together to ensure that minorities are proportionally represented in all professions and positions of leadership in our country.
Beth
Missouri

Butt, cabobby, and of course, Nellie...

AS USUAL, some of the most reprehensible comments ever posted on TH.

Combined, you should have a quarter of the intelligence of Dr. Sowell's, but you don't!

Bet you never wondered just WHY the brightest and best of the Black community are Republican/Conservatives.

If you're capable of "pondering" you might want to ponder that notion. That might keep you busy for the next decade!


Nellie
I'm not sure what your problem is, but it is not up to YOU to judge the so-called "sins" of others.

President Bush quietly does many things at the bedside of wounded soldiers - which, of course, wouldn't be known if others didn't occasionally point them out.

Dr. Sowell is employing the same method.

For someone who comes on here often espousing Christian principles, you sure are judgmental of others behavior.

Boutte
I used to think the same as Boutte. Looking at black norms for the life of our nation I wondered if they were just not as capable mentally; however, after reading sereral of Dr. Sowell's books I have reached a vastly different conclusion. There are many examples around the world throughout history in which whole groups have raised their IQs. As Dr. Sowell points out the Scottish were once vastly behind the English; however, within a short period of time they made vast strides and became leaders in science and industry. When Caesar came to the British Isles he thought that the English were too studid to make good slaves. These are the same people who later formed the British Empire. Thomas Sowell has pointed out many other examples.

Doc Sowell
Great article. We on the right contribute more to charities than the left and never trumpet them. The leftists love to spend OPM (other people's money) and bleat about it while we on the right use our own to help America.

BTW ALL...

Check out the Anti Liberal Zone (click on my name AND BOOKMARK IT) ASAP. Today we're blasting Obambi and McShamnesty!

http://noliberalspin.blogtownhall.com/

Liberals, proof of human DE-evolution.

Boutte is a perfect ...
assample of the extremes one can get to when viewing life through the prism of no hope (read: atheist). His invective comments run the gamut of extremes. He his, above all, to be pitied.

Differences in average intelligence
I have looked at the data showing differences in average human intelligence within different ethinic and racial groups and find that it is well founded. I was a little shocked at the lack of awareness of this fact by so many of the posters. Is this an example of exactly the type of wishfull thinking that leads the liberal left to come up with such wrong headed but good sounding policies?

Affirmative Action is.....
just another form of discrimination. AA created many problems. It apparently was not enough to simply eliminate discrimination by law and enforce it. The left had to foist it upon us through acts of constructive force. I mean that members of minority groups were plugged into slots based solely on their race and not on qualifications. Some were simply passed on and their shortcomings were not acknowledged.

Nickel
Not every state had Jim Crow---So as a nation we are not coming from that point of view. In my town we had a black city councilman in the 1920's. and many black businessmen, even a black woman owned a diner in our town in 1910. Please stop applying those racist Jim Crow laws to the whole nation.

Beth in Missouri, can you please ...
help to quantify what it would look like once, "ensure that minorities are proportionally represented in all professions and positions of leadership in our country."

You, incorrectly I believe, assume that all people wish to perform all the differing jobs in equal proportions. That's insanity! The only correct course of action is to do our best to make sure that everyone has equal opportunity to achieve, if that is what they desire and are willing to work to achieve it.

Life will never be fair, equal, or just for everyone. Someone will always have an advantage because of wealthier parents, better teachers, or just excellent genes. It sounds to me like you want well defined measuring sticks to ascertain fairness.

I suggest that any measurement you establish will be arbitrary and your desired goals impossible to meet.

Francis W. Porretto
I was fortunate enough to be clued in by someone who knew (I was the first on either side of my family to go to university) that it is not the university you ATTEND that matters, it is the one from which you GRADUATE that your future depends upon.

This smart uncle advised that I spend three years at a school that was geared not only to my strengths but to my weaknesses (e.g. an inability to do math of any type at all) and then transfer to a Name School from which I would get my degree. I worked very ahrd at Small Bible College and took double loads as many semesters as I was allowed, and when it came time to transfer, circumstances fell into place so that I could spend that final year taking a round the world cruise and then "cruising" to the finish line at the Land Campus that owned the cruise ship.

I also discovered that nobody really cares what you major in or even what grades you got, once you have proved you can do the work.

Perhaps the AA babies (or as my boss at the Education Board called them, the "MLK Babies") could learn from this. Go to a school you can handle, learn everything you can, transfer to a Name School in your senior year and succeed. Unless, of course, you are at school to play Bawl. In which case someone else will take all your classes for you.

Sowell
A simply great article. This issue is something that most people are not able to write or talk about without getting into some sort of trouble. Well done. Perhaps you should run for president? Oh please?! haha Your articles get better and better with each passing week.

I see the likes of Nellie has insulted you on...hmm, nothing. You see Nellie, here is the difference. Any person on the conservative side is simply there because of the issues they believe in. Any black republican won office over their issues as republicans (specifically more to conservatives), while Democrats run blacks for office to say they have more blacks. Just look at this presidential race. Democrats claim they are more diverse simply because they put up a woman and a black man for president. Well, Im sorry to disappoint, but conservatives could care less. If Sowell ran, he would take pretty much every conservative vote. If Condi Rice ran she would as well. We don't care that they are black, we care what they are going to do once they take office. Where on the democrat side they are voting Obama simply because he is black or Hillary because she is a Clinton. Its all about what they can accomplish in the name of diversity and not what they can accomplish for this country in general.

As for libs
it's ALL show for them. Substance has no meaning.

Nellie
You are so wise. I only wish that you would expound a little more fully on the ways in which Dr. Sowell is incorrect. I am here to learn.

jayhawk in aotearoa said @ 9:09 AM
"This sort of "we are virtuous and they are evil" mentality that is perpetuated by SOME conservatives and SOME liberals takes us further and further away from finding some common ground in which can all work together to ensure that minorities are proportionally represented in all professions and positions of leadership in our country." sic.

You miss the point, Beth! You still see minorities that need "help" while Dr. Sowell see excellence in people -- period.

If one goes back to the original "AA" laws one will (should if one is honest with ones self) see that the complete intent was to develop "Color blindness" in our society; i.e., we couldn't turn a qualified individual away from a job if they were black or red or yellow or green or blue or white. It wasn't supposed to matter. Then, however, the courts took control of the law(s) and in their stupidity they completely turned everything upside down and away from competence and toward quotas, etc.

If you can't see that, you don't belong posting here; but, please keep reading because you will surely learn much from the conservatives who post and will also see the ridiculousness of the liberals who try (in their ignorance) to post here.

TBC ~:>{)

Clinton and Obama
Anyone else feel like both Clinton and Obama are "mascots" in this presidential race? Democrats discarded one better qualified candidate after another until it was down to these two, neither of whom has a good answer to the question: Can you name a specific accomplishment that qualifies you to be president? They are both mediocre senators at best.

Mascots
Sowell does it again...a hammer hit squarely on the nail.

Has Anyone Noticed?

More and more Democrats are leaning toward Thomas Sowell's position. And in doing so are leaning more moderate/right. Slow but sure, America is rejecting the brainless banter of the Elitist Leftists and moving in the direction of common sense.

Don't be surprised if President McCain isn't forced to make sharper right turns during his first 4 years, to satisfy a growing Conservative majority.

Farewell Pinko-commies! The Sun is shining brighter and the Grass growing greener on the Conservative side of the fence :)

this reminds me of a time...
when my husband and I had a small plumbing business in a very small town. We had bought out another plumber who was retiring. He asked us to keep his hired hand working. At the time we didn't think we would be able to afford an employee, but decided to try it.

The employee was a young black man, married with one child. Long story short, over the next 10 years he became an invaluable asset, always going above and beyond what was expected. We wanted to do something extra for him so when his wife was expecting their second child we offered to help them buy a house on what we considered the "good" side of town.

They turned down our offer and bought a house on the other side of the tracks and began improving the property. Some time later the young man told my husband that the reason they had done this was because they wanted to begin showing their friends and neighbors that anyone can improve their lot in life and have a satisfactory degree of success with hard work and perseverance.

We need to remember that we all have the right to determine what success means in our own lives and that while we may not see success in the choices someone else makes doesn't mean it is not there.

Allowing people the dignity of determining what works for them and allowing them the freedom to choose their own battles in life by standards they set is far more compassionate and helpful than insisting they be measured by what our standards are.


Beth
Proportional representation is affirmative action.
Your bias is showing...

jayhawk
One big problem is that "they" have won, and they have shouted down "we" with charges of racism at every attempt to make a positive change [except for schools, where they charge Conservative changes would bankrupt the public education system (women and minorities to suffer most!)].

The Advancement of Colored People
Reply #41 asks whether Affirmative Action has not done at least a little good. I'd surely like to believe that such an enormous effort has not been wasted. However, in the very uncertain world of "what if," we can only base our supposition on a continuation of the trajectories established before A.A. The economic rise of Black people was more rapid before the passage of the Civil Rights Acts. People smarter than I am, e.g. Dr. Sowell, have suggested that the downward pressure has been the result of the simultaneous passage of the war on poverty. Since I supported that, too, I am loathe to admit it, but there is to much empirical evidence that I really can not deny the proposition.

Someone has also suggested that Black Conservatives are also a sort of mascot. The difference between the Liberal mascots and Black conservatives is simply that the Black conservatives are respected for their very obvious ability, while the discussion of affirmative action centers around the lack of ability found in people chosen only for color. Otherwise, we'd not be having the discussion.

Nellie isn't a Christian...
Christians love their neighbors as themselves. When a lawyer asked Jesus who was his neighbor, Jesus told him about a "Good Samaritan". The Samaritans were hated by jews. They were according to the jews, stupid, lower than dogs, and were not worthy of salvation. But Jesus told this Jewish lawyer that the Samaritan was the one that did what was right and forced him to tell the truth. The one that showed mercy was the real neighbor no matter what race he was.

Dr. Sowell shows mercy as well.

Beyond the pale...
I am not quite sure where you lived when you were young but I am glad they had a black commissioner in the 1920s and a woman who evened owned a diner in 1910. I would venture to guess that you also had other people who worked in lots of jobs and happened to be black. My point was the number of jobs open to blacks in most of the US prior to the widespread effect of the AA laws in the 1970s was restricted. Do you really doubt this? I happen to think that the AA laws in the US have long since served their purposes and should be eliminated. What I was asking is what Dr. Sowell's opinion was about the need to open these doors.

Boutte is Right, But SO WRONG!
Boutte is right about IQ scores, but so wrong in his conclusion. Here are a few facts.
FACT #1 --"While it has been long been known that, historically, the average IQ of blacks has been about 85%, compared to a national average of 100, what has not been so widely known is that the average IQ of blacks in the North was for years consistently higher than that of blacks in the South"
FACT #2 -- "As late as the First World War, white soldiers from Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky, and Mississippi scored lower on mental tests than black soldiers from Ohio, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania."
FACT #3 -- "The 1970 census showed that black West Indian families in the New York metropolitan area had 28% higher incomes than the families of American blacks. The incomes of 2nd generation West Indian families living in the same area exceeded that of black families by 58%. Neither race nor racism can explain such differences. Nor can slavery, since native born blacks and West Indian blacks both had a history of slavery."
FACT #4 -- "With blacks as with whites, the redneck culture has been a less achieving culture."
Conclusion -- Its CULTURE, Boutte, not race. I am inclined to agree with ROADMASTER AND NUTNFINR in their opinions about you, but I will give you a second chance. The quotes above and their references can be found in "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" by Thomas Sowell. Please buy it and read it. That is, if your racist mind won't explode because you are learning something from a black man.

Exactly...
Jackpine Savage, right on.

Response to OrpheusMay
Is this data you present from Dr. Sowell's book, Black Rednecks and White Liberals" really a refutation of the data that was presented earlier about IQ differences by race and ethinicity or just a clarification of the variations within subgroups? The point of the article as that Affirmative Action has become a reason for hiring or promotion and that those then hired are often protected from firing or other levels of accountability by those who implemented the AA policies in the first place and that this creates a negative situation for all involved. The problem lies where Dr.Sowell put it in the motivation to hire a "black worker" as a trophy rather than as an employee who is there based on their qualifications. His point I believe is that this is both counter productive for the organization,the employee themselves and the society that enshrines these approaches.

And the rest of the story
Those who are selected because of their race and do succeed seem to forever question whether they quite measure up.
I once worked with an outstanding black doctor who was accepted into medical school thru affirmative action. She never seemed to have the confidence to defend disputed descions based on facts, but became defensive because fo her race and the fact she was able to get into school based on that race. I have no idea of why she went the affirmative action route, she certainly was an outstanding doctor, and should never have had to feel she didn't quite measure up.

Response to Nickel
I agree with the "trophy theory" as explained by Dr. Sowell and that you summarized so well. Being a black in corporate America, unfortunately, have seen the effects of the "trophy theory". It is indeed a lose-lose-lose proposition.

I was responding to a narrow-minded post by Boutte who got stuck on, and based his entire argument around, IQ differences between the races. I was trying to show Boutte that the differences in IQ is better explained by culture not race.

Too many of my people cry "racism" WAY TOO OFTEN. I have a sweat shirt that is my response to them. "So life has a hill. Get over it."

Thanks for the post, Nickel.

cabobby
"Talk about being a mascot
Boy Mr. Sowell you hit the nail on the head.

Talking about being a mascot. Get a reality check, if you don't think MANY of you Blacks on the right are not MASCOTS for conservatives.

Yes! I know you are there on your own merit. It is just the Blacks people on the left that are not qualified"

Your post shows that you do not understand the basics on the topic.

One cannot be a mascot under a philosophy that bases relationships on equality and independence.

I assume... Sowell is physically, mentally, emotionally, and economically able and prepared to walk away from any economic relationship because he has based his career on exchanging value in a free(ish) market. Free exchange or value among equals is the driving factor in the relationships.

The liberal / socialist philosophy is based on third-parties (government) adjusting things in an attempt to achieve “fairness”. This makes the first and second parties dependent on the third party. Free exchange of value is not the driving factor in the relationship.

Under conservative / classical liberal philosophy, when an economic relationship no longer provides net value to both parties, each party is free to walk away.

Under a liberal / socialist philosophy, theoretical fairness is the measure which can leave the parties beholden or dependent on the other.

IQ
As OrpheusMay pointed out, there are differences in IQ between various segments of society and those differences have much more to do with culture than innate intelligence or ability.

Sowell did, in one book (but I've read several and can't remember which one this was in) postulated that the degree of intelligence is roughly equal between races but the type of intelligence varies slightly. One of the examples he used was that whites "tend" to be more philosophical in nature while blacks "tend" to be better in situations that require very rapid analysis of information and quick response. I've used music as an example of this. If you go to a symphony concert, the overwhelming percentage of musicians will be white. The music is very scripted and requires analysis and interpretation of the composer's music coupled with their own technical excellence. If you go to a jazz club, the overwhelming percentage of musicians will be black. Jazz music has only an outline and requires the musician to interact with the other musicians and improvise 'on the fly.' An appreciative ear recognizes the talent and intelligence required by each genre is roughly equal and yet different. There are, of course, crossovers and this is certainly no hard and fast rule but I think there is a valid point.

ex-Wyomingite, I just about ...
fell out of my chair when reading your comment about "a big burly Samoan"! I grew up in Carson, California, and there is a large population of Samoans there. The Carson Colts, my high school and it's mascot, were feared throughout LA because of the dominance of both the offensive and defensive lines, anchored by those "burly samoans".

In high school, they were as mean as badgers (I had my lights punched out by a samoan because my basketball team bit his in a pick-up game). My experience was that they mellowed after high school and were great friends. And Allies!

Amen!!
Dr. Sowell is a true scholar and one of the brightest and sharpest journalists of our time. Thank you for being honest, forthright and non-politically correct in your assessments. The truth always rises above error and lies.

Amen Marion
That is what I do not like about affirmative action. No matter how qualified we are, there is always a cloud of doubt that hangs over a hire when he/she is black.

Thanks for the post, Marion.

Where is "Boutte's" post?
Rats! It seems I missed the rumble. In fact, I'm not even sure whether the spelling is "Boute" or "Boutte". But the "Bouttes" seem to be in a majority.
I guest Boutte's post must have been flagged and removed as offensive.
That's a pity, actually. It keeps late comers from fully understanding the anti-Boutte posts.
I'm not a huge fan of censorship, and believe it should be used sparingly, say, for obviously filthy (as in body-part and/or excretory-functions-or-fluids posts) spam-ish or vandalism posts. IMHO those types of posts are much worse than the merely stupid or racist ones. I almost never flag a merely stupid post.
It seems some posters thought "Boutte" was lousy satire. The possibility of being misunderstood is why I've never been exactly thrilled by satirical posts (e.g. LD) in the midst of a serious, or at least semi-serious discussion.
Oh well, I guess missing out on what's happening in the talk string is what I get for tuning in late.
Looks as if nobody likes you, Boutte, baby! Maybe you should think about changing your stinking little nihilistic life!

Funny
Just yesterday I posted an article on my blog about how liberal law enforcement policies that are supposed to help "racial justice" actually hurt blacks by releasing black criminals back into black neighborhoods. Now I find the exact same sentiment worded much better in this essay.

Wish I had known this was coming and I could have saved myself the effort.

Thank you for your nice post as well
Orpheus May. The issues raised by Dr.Sowell are complex. I am white but decended from those french Canadian and Scotch Irish roots mentioned above as having similar problems with ADHD etc..derived from thousands of years of hunter/gathering experience, preparing myself and my children for things other than sitting at a desk. I was once put into a class for semi retarded kids in high school and although I eventually escaped that attempt by the bureaucracy to shunt me off to failure land, I well realized at the time that if my skin color had been black instead of white I might never of gotten out of those classes. That said this issue is not only a difficult one, but so charged with strong passions on both sides that it is difficult to discuss in a level headed fashion. I am not sure of what my personal opinion is regarding this matter. I have read several of Dr.Sowell's books on the subject and effects of affirmative action and live in an area where the differences are up front and personal everyday, but I still on balance when asked by my children whether or not AA was a good thing come back to the reality of limited access to jobs, credit, homes, and education that preceeded the enactment of AA legislation in the 1970s. I don't think it is a clear cut case either way, but without those jobs by the thousands there would have been no real change for most blacks for another century. Thank you for your reasoned response to my post.

Most of the trouble I've seen ...
on these threads is that most conservatives tend to try to argue logically. Most liberals tend to call names. It is fun to argue with a liberal who actually uses logic and tries to put his ideas out to convince you he is right. It is annoying when a liberal (or conservative) simply tries to convince everyone he is right by calling names.

If all you can do is call names, then you aren't convincing anyone of anything except that you can't otherwise support your arguments - which basically means that you don't believe those arguments yourself.

Johnnyp, I once read an article ...
by Leonard Pitts where he attempted to "zing" the reader on AA. He wrote from the perspective of where "someone like me(him)" received special consideration to get into a writing program. His word usage was vague. His insinuation was that he was admitted to a program via Affirmative Action.

It turns out that he was admitted because "people like him" had high academic achievement. He was frustrated that people would assume that he received his award because of AA.

I wrote a letter to him that never received a response, and pointed out that his ability was questioned not because he was black, but because he was black and Affirmative Action existed. If AA never existed, then there would never be a reason to question anyone's position or achievements.

Hey Johnnyp -- got any investments?
From the flavor of your post you seem to be "intelligent", Johnnyp, let me ask you a question. If you have investments, are 90% of your funds in a single fund? Would any financial counselor advise you to put 90% of your funds in one account? Of course the answer is "NO". So be it with Blacks and the Democratic party and those of us Blacks who are now conservative.

Thanks for the revealing post, though.

OrpheusMay
I agree with what you've posted, therefore you must be a genius! I have managed in several companies over the years and consulted with many more. I have come to the conclusion that every company sells the same thing, namely its capacity. Companies can acquire identical capacity (production machines, for example) so that, in order to be competitive, a company must distinguish itself from its competition by somehow differentiating its capacity to make it more attractive to customers. In my opinion, what differentiates capacity is the people in the company. The operator that can get a little more production out of the machine, the tooling engineer who can get a few more pieces out of a coil of steel, the maintenance person who keeps the machines running 5% more than the competition and so reduces overhead cost, the salesperson who understands the customer's needs just a little more clearly and delivers just that few percentage points more than the competitor's salesperson. Thus, it behooves the business owner to hire the best person for every position in the company, regardless of race, gender, or any other superficial characteristic. It is my opinion that through affirmative action, bigots who would deprive their companies of the best employees simply because of race are made more competitive than they would be if they were allowed to deny themselves a huge segment of the available talent pool. So while AA may be harmful to the very groups it supposedly serves, it is helpful to bigots. I can't believe liberals would support something like that!

Gideon
I am sure many people here would find Bouttes post offensive. It was him spouting off on how blacks cannot measure up to white in IQ. Then went on to say why with some African reasoning and such. Very offensive and wrong to say the least.

GunnyG
As Always with Liberals:
Feelings=Facts
Right=Wrong
Wrong=Right
Losing=Winning
Winning=Losing
Intentions=Results
Style=Substance

Mr. Sowell
Aside from this particular incident, how does it feel to cast your lot with conservatives when you scroll down a thread about Obama and read one vicious, racist post after another? Do you just close your eyes to it? Do you tell yourself that it doesn't really reflect conservative thinking, even though 7 out of ten posts are blatantly and blithely as racist as a lynch party on a Saturday night?

Remembering
For the greater part, we as a population are not ready for an Obama black president, let alone a candidate who is so lacking in background and sporting a whacky liberal mindset. The liberals and the media are wheeze and whine like crazy to make him look like a good fit. It will nevery happen, this election coming up. No sireeee.

Paraleipsical Pandering by the Race hust


This is staggeringly candid, true, and nobody says it better

Gideon--my last post was Boutte's post
I forgot to mention that I copied and pasted his rant for your viewing displeasure.

think 4 yourself
could you please quote one of those racist posts and tell us why you think its racist.

Paraleipsical Pandering
Paraleipsical Pandering by the Race Hustlers

This is staggeringly candid, true, and nobody says it better.

John Konop #20
Government should stay away from charter schools. With their record of destroying everything they touch, they would turn charter into another type of the government schools that are destroying the lives of many prople.

profblog #36 Nellie on Little House became an nice person after meeting a Jewish man. Maybe there is still help for this one.

CK Hustler
(On my other computer, Think_4_yoursself is upstairs)

This won't take more than a second or two; don't go away.

THINK_4 YOURSELF.....think again.
People disagree with political positions all of the time. Just because the candidate is Barack Obama does not mean that these same political disagreements are now racist.

Sorry I missed...
...the Boutte post. It must have been...umm 'entertaining'. Can I assume he was flagged and removed?
While I don't agree with Boutte on anything, I think his posts should remain for others to read, that others may judge the left's positions.

ex-wyomingite
I second the motion. I am tired of coming to a thread to find many responses to some idiot but, the idiot was deleted to protect their idiocy from attack I suppose.

Insulting
Is it just me, or would anyone else feel insulted if your child's teacher said to you "because your child can't possibly do as well as a white/black/brown/whatever student on a particular test, we're going to give him an extra 20 points." Why do people receiving AA not feel insulted?

Question:
How does Obama fulfill AA quotas? Since he is of mixed racial parentage, does he only half-fill the quota?

Or, as he has demonstrated, is it just a matter of declaring your race to be Black or White?

"We" declared Clinton to be our first Black president, so why is Obama a step up? (or half-step?)

As long as we continue to obsess over race, we will have these discussions.

I declare all of America to be the AMERICAN RACE....I declare us to be the Whack Race or if you prefer the Blite Race. Now...no more need for AA is there?

What slays me, a Conservative!
There is nothing becoming more and more repugnant to me, a stauch conservative Republican than to hear over and over from so called conservatives, blaming all of America's evils upon the liberals.

It seems like they are not ashamed, or maybe to their credit, they may not even realize, that each article they write and each speech they give in blasting the liberals, they are proving how so weak they are and end up, in my book, just plain whinners etc.

Yes the old saying: One finger points to the liberals, 3 point back at the writers and spekers themselves, so self declacred conservatives, while one point up to God Almighty!


none: Sometimes posts are just too foul

and reprehensible to leave on the threads.


Mrs. Paddy
That reminds me of a story a THer told on here...I don't know if this is true, but it gave me a laugh.

Here is a paraphrased version

A woman wanted to get her kid into an all black school. They wouldn't let her in at first, so she just stated they were black and they couldn't refute it since, what is black? There is no cutoff spot for a black person, so they found the loophole and her kid got to go to the school.

Now I remind you that I cannot vouch that the story is true, but it is rather amusing.

The only ones I would delete
are like the ones HalD above just made. It proves no point and is simply spamming the thread.

Keep shining your light Dr Sowell
People are used as 'pawns' by liberals Dr. Sowell not just blacks.

Tokenism is a major tool for liberals who care little about the damage to the individuals they use.

When used the they dispose of those individuals like 'used tissue' becaus they can always find another 'usable' somewhere - after all "It is for the Common Good!"

H.D. -- facts are facts
I am with you, but you must agree that facts trump emotionalism. Conservatives, for the most part, base their positions on facts. I cannot say the same for others. Do you agree? By the way, I am not blaming ALL of America's problems on the liberals. A majority, yes, but not all.

Strong post, my friend. Keep up the good fight.

Flagging
I agree with ex-Wyominite and others who are upset over posts being removed. Flagging should be limited in scope, and only used for the most egregious offenses.

While I don't think freedom of speech is a blank check to say any filthy, insulting and threatening thing that the poster wishes, I will defend to the death their right to spew stupid nonesense.

Maybe we should be able to grade the post like we do the article...or have a similar way to express disgust and warn others to read with caution? What say you TH?

Georgetwin
You got that right amigo.

From a historical standpoint, libs have been on the wrong side since 1775 when they became Tories and fled to Canuckistan. Unfortunately, they left a few fifth columnists behind and those parasites have multiplied.

Flagging
I think everyone knows who the main offenders are and how silly most of their drivel is. I see no harm in removing wasted space.

Should someone reasonable post here with a differing opinion in order to get an honest debate going, I think that is golden...

Liberalism ...
Many have accurately filled in the rest of that sentence and I guess Dr. Sowell has added another: Liberalism has a Mascot mindset.

This piece deserves more, i.e., a chapter in a book, a book title, something. And we find ourselves entertained by those here who try and argue his point.

5 stars!