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Sunday, August 17, 2008
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Pastor Warren's Politicized Pulpit A Mistake
by Star Parker
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A number of years ago, John McCain did a hilarious segment on "Saturday Night Live" in which he did a spoof commercial for an album called "McCain Sings Streisand."

The "commercial" featured a crooning McCain torturing a number of Streisand hits -- "People," "Memories," "The Way We Were."

The senator then pitched, "I've been in politics for 20 years, and for 20 years I've had Barbra Streisand trying to do my job. So I decided to try my hand at her job."

Pastor Rick Warren's presidential candidate "Civic Forum" at his Saddleback Church brought this SNL highlight to mind.

I'm picturing a segment with Lou Dobbs or Brit Hume preaching a Sunday sermon in a crowded church and then looking into the camera and saying, "Rick Warren is taking a fling at my job, so I thought I'd try my hand at his."

My apologies to Pastor Warren. Who am I to question a pastor who has sold 35 million books that flick on the light for folks to see that life is more than just about themselves?

God Bless Pastor Warren for this.

But I think his foray into presidential politics carries a lot of baggage and creates problems.

If anything characterizes the problems we're having today it is relativism and ambiguity. A blurring of lines between everything. John McCain's "Saturday Night Live" sketch jokes about one part of this. Our elevation of entertainment and celebrity to the point where movie stars start thinking they should be setting public policy, and the public taking them seriously.

In our materialism, we're losing the distinction between money, power and celebrity as compared with knowledge and wisdom.

Now we're seeing a world in which clarity between good and evil, right and wrong, knowledge and ignorance, men and women is disappearing into a borderless and indistinguishable gray.

For whatever good intentions Rick Warren may have, by posturing as a neutral broker between different points of view, many of which have profound moral and religious implications, he contributes to the moral ambiguity which we'd expect a pastor to be combating.

We have institutions for civic and political forums. The press, universities, town halls, etc. If they're not delivering well, let the marketplace work to improve what we're getting. But this is not the job of pastors or churches. If it is, where do we go to learn about good and evil?

What exactly is going on in America when our obsession is to cleanse every inch of public space from religion, yet somehow we think it is appropriate to bring a presidential political forum into church?

Our kids can't pray in public school. Or read the bible or learn to apply traditional values in managing their lives. The Ten Commandments cannot appear in our courthouses. A creche cannot be displayed in a public space during Christmas season.

Yet somehow we think a church is an appropriate forum for hosting candidates for president?

Our world is turning upside down. Rather than raising our public and private lives to a higher moral standard, we're politicizing religion. It's actually worse, I think.

The pretense of neutrality is really a left-wing illusion. It's a sleight of hand to buy into relativism and somehow Warren seems to have fallen into the trap.

When a pastor hosts a political candidate that has a 100 percent rating by NARAL Pro-Choice America and a zero percent rating by the National Right to Life Committee, he gives legitimacy to that candidate. When legitimacy is given to a line reasoning that says that poverty and AIDS are symptoms of anything other than moral breakdown, the relativist views of the left are justified.

To a disproportionate measure, when we are talking about poverty and AIDS in America, we are talking about black communities. These communities are in disarray because of moral ambiguity. They not only need moral clarity and leadership, they crave it.

Partisanship is not our problem today. Healthy partisanship is vital to freedom.

Our problem is moral ambiguity. Anyone that thinks this ambiguity is helpful in addressing poverty, crime, and disease is misinformed.

We need political leaders that are more moral, not church leaders that are more political.

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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Warren did okay
Not particularly great, but okay. He asked some basic questions, at a journeyman's level of competence, with little follow up and let the candidates talk. But in a way he did us a favor by letting the candidates do exactly that-talk-and we did get some insight into both of them.

I would have preferred that format, but focused on one question--say when life begins or evil in the world and then explore that in depth for an hour. That would have been very interesting. But I doubt the campaigns would ever agree to it (or rather I doubt Obama's campaign would ever agree to it), and Warren had to make the best with what he had.

Computerized Transcripts from Last Night
I have posted the entire computerized transcripts from the Saddlebrook Obama - McCain debate last night on my blog.

From the blog you can EMAIL yourself or others the transcripts - 3 parts for each candidate.

From the blog you can PRINT yourself or others the transcripts - 3 parts for each candidate.

To access these transcripts just click on my name on this post.

You may also access these transcripts at:
http://hisfacts.blogtownhall.com/

Rick Warren Did A Good Job
Rick Warren did a good job; he asked the questions the "commoners" wanted answered, and he asked them exactly as we would have: straightforward without the razzle-dazzle. There were no puff questions designed to make one candidate look better than the other, and Rick asked them both the same questions so it was fair-n-square.

I thought McCain was the clear winner. Obama's answer "..above my paygrade" was very telling. If Obama lost the debate, he did it all by himself, with his own words. Unfortunately, when people quote Obama, they are called "liars." Expect someone to come out soon and clarify for us what Obama meant when he said (this) or (that).





Let's back out of the forest a bit
Your concern starts with a faulty modernist premise.. The idea that the faithful can only be some marginalized zombies that only deserve to ask questions of a non political nature, in a church and only to each other, is inane at best. In that regard, the saddleback forum is no different than a candidate speaking at The A.C.L.U or N.A.A.C.P or any other freely formed group. As far as i know this was not part of a religious service....Those of you who have become obsessed with the separation of someones faith and their politics are either social engineers or wishful thinkers.The 1st Amendment is often selectively quoted, so much that we've coined the phrase ..."The Establishment Clause", but immediately following this phrase in the constitution, is the phrase NOR PROHIBIT THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF. I refer to this as the "Free Exercise Clause" Religious people are also citizens, just like, doctors, atheists, stock brokers, peace activists and bee keepers are citizens. You can't restrict anyones speech on the basis of faith... that's undeniable, if you honor the constitution.

great article
http://mefeedia.com/entry/706459/

This link gives a good example of Rick Warren's style....*my* meaning, *my* significance, *my* purpose...etc...

He's like any motivational speaker, but worse because he uses the premise of Christianity.

What 'pastor' has the hubris to repackage the message of Christ and the meaning of the Bible into a McMessage?.....faster, easier to digest, and all about *me*.

He gets people focused on the purpose of their life. When you give your life to Jesus it is no longer *your life*. There is only one purpose, to get more people to believe in Jesus so they can have eternal life.

He wrote a book that gets everyone focused on themselves here and now, it is a dangerous sleight of hand. He takes them away from the Bible. The Bible is very simple in it's explanation of what is expected of us...'love your neighbor as yourself', 'I desire mercy not sacrifice', 'forgive others as I have forgiven you', 'obey My commandments', 'whoever is the least is the greatest'.....love, mercy, forgiveness, obedience, and don't seek any glory for yourself.

The most important element which he totally blows off, 'Believe in Jesus and you will have everlasting life.'

This life is nothing compared to the one that is coming, so why the push for a *purpose*? There is only one purpose, to get more people to believe in Jesus so they can have eternal life.



AGREEMENT
Star, I agree with you. I liked the format of the interviews, but would prefer ministers stick to teaching the Gospel. The congregation can gather info on the candidates from other sources to make up their minds. As a one time event it was rather refreshing, but it will likely set a precedent with more to follow. I forsee the biggest Cahtolic Archdicese next followed by the largest Synagog, and on and on until this format becomes trivialized like debates with MSM 'moderators'. If media talking heads were practicing Christians and not almost totally biased for the left, we would probably get questioning like Pastor Warren displayed last night, and his interviews from Saddleback would never have taken place.

Warren Needed His Media Fix
It's all gone to Warren's head. This is not the forum for this and he is not the man to do it. But I did like the way it was conducted, same questions, without anyone knowing them in advance and not hearing the other's answers. Warrens is a great guy but is becoming a ham.

Ms. Parker's concerns about holding the.
forum in a "church." The forum was held in a church building, the church is the membership which meets in the church building. Should Pastor Warren held the fourm in the Saddleback church building? That is a question for the members and leadership of the Saddleback church. The rather simple forum revealed many weaknesses in Obama. The more the voters know about Obama and his ideas the better. We need to know who is "pulling Obama's levers" (think Wizard of Oz).

Star Parker is mistaken
Rick Warren not only has a right to play any roll he would like to play in politics but an obligation. The Founding Fathers never intended to remove religion from the public square. They just did not want the state to establish a state religion. With so many Godless and hypocritical people in the media and in politics, we need all the moral guidance in politics that we can get.

Got The Moral Part Right:
The last line of the article, "We need political leaders that are more moral, not church leaders that are more political."

I disagree that our church leaders shouldn't be political. That's the whole problem; we were told there must be a separation of Church & State, and the Silent Majority shut up. We let them take our nativity scenes down, take the 10 Commandments away, and we certainly can't pause in a moment of prayer at school anymore.

I'm glad to see Christians involved in the political process; it's long over due. We have kept our lips shut and allowed these politically-correct gurus shipwreck the country with their radical, unChristian and unAmerican ideas.



I, too
wonder if our churches are becoming too political. However, if the media did it's job Warren wouldn't have to do it for them.

For every action
There is an equal and opposite reaction. I found that reaction in an article by Byron York writing in National Review Online. Following is a link to the article. It is an interesting contrast between the perspective of Ms. Parker and Mr. York.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTBjN2RkY2Y3ODZhYmRmYT ZjYTI1NTQ4ZGNkM2Y2YmU=&w=MA

The pulpit
Is a great place to inform people and teach principle. As odd as it seems to some, Scriptural principle informs the believer on how to live, vote etc. However, politics from the pulpit does more harm to the church than to the state. Instead of taking a stand on difficult principles of Scripture, Rick Warren is more interested in being "relevant" to a debased culture. The Scriptures are perpetually relevant. To use exegesis and exposit from the Scripture has eternally greater value than politics. Yes, pastors need to speak on current issues and how Scriptural principles apply, but as is the case for so many, Warren is about Warren and making the gospel "palatable" to those interested in cheap grace, which is no grace at all. Warren is ego (purpose) driven and has done a disservice to the believer that has a God worthy of setting something apart, that is worship, praise, and yes, the pulpit. This is my own personal observation, but it seems to me that the so called shepherds that politic from the pulpit are either wacked out extremists or liberals. His Word is Holy, and we have lost a lot when we have no place set aside for the sole purpose of preaching His Word. If you truly preach the Word, the people dont need to be set straight politically. If you truly preach the Word, you will not allow apostasy to be spoken from the pulpit. If you truly preach the Word, you immediately and firmly challenge false teaching. Warren does not, did not, will not.

Christians are supposed to be....
AMBASSADORS for Christ. not lobbyists, not pundits, not moderators.

And...

CITIZENS of Heaven - not earth and it's wordly things...

I disagree with above poster who says "There is only one purpose, to get more people to believe in Jesus so they can have eternal life."

It is NOT up to us to get anyone to believe. The Bible clearly tells us it is GOD who does the calling - it is God's Spirit who woo us to Him. Remember Christ tols his disciples "YOU did not choose me, but rather I Chose YOU."

Problem with many Christians today is they are told to go out and make believers...their own Bible say howver to make DISCIPLES of Christ. No one can make anyone believe ANYTHING. The Bible also tells Christians not to FORCE their corrupt doctrines (yes, all the churches doctrines are corrupt), but rather EXPLAIN their hope of the promise of Christ to those who ASK!!! In other words - keep your mouth shut UNLESS you are asked and then you can to preach with SOUND doctrine and REFUTE those who contradict it.

Rick Warren
Thanks to Rick Warren for asking the same questions of each candidate, and doing it as an ordinary person would. It was refreshing.

There is no doubt that age and experience mean something. I don't think a "community organizer," who has been on the floor of the senate for less than 150 days, and who has yet to specifically define his "vision," is a long way from the presidency!

Pharoah
Why did Jesus send them out two by two?

I can't MAKE anyone believe, but I can be salt and light in a dark world.

Pastor Jimmy Carter
When asked why he was into politics, presidential politics even, Carter responded, as I recall, that though it was tempting to become a pastor, being President would give one a much larger "congregation."

While in college, young Bill Clinton was approached by a naive Catholic priest about the prospect of Clinton someday becoming a priest (see the great bio, "First in His Class," by David Marraniss).

My point I guess, and McCain made it more beautifully last night than Obama, is that potential presidents want to help people.

Even Prime Minister Putin, somewhere in his soul, is motivated not primarily by wealth or fame--but by the strong desire to be of service to others. This I believe.

Rick Warren did a great service for the American folks. He started the Campaign. He introduced us to John and Barack. Brothers in service. Perhaps I've missed your point.

(Really excellent points about what our Holy Father calls the dictatorship of relativism.)

But McCain, especially McCain, evinced real faith, real character. The camera did not lie last night.

God bless both brothers, and may the best man win.

American People are Smart
Obama did what he has promised to do, to be a different kind of leader. He took the questions as they were asked and answered them honestly and personally. McCain did what he was used to, politicking and pandering. Of course, he stayed on message, because he gave his stump speech. So, McCain rehearse performance was better. We shouldn't be surprised, Hillary did the same thing. But after awhile people began to see that the sound bites aren’t sufficient and they drifted toward the more complete answers and solutions that Obama offers. I have confidence, the American people are smarter than they are treated!

Obama earned applause
At best, the diversity in the crowd was slim and not readily apparent to viewers at home. All the applause that Obama got from this audience was truly earned! It was sincere. They did not necessarily agree with him, they respected his stance on a particular topic! There was no way he could win this audience over but they did acquire a level of ease with him.

Obama was thoughtful, complete, and complex. He took the questions as they were asked and attempted to answer them honestly and personally. There is a general consensus that Obama answers were thoughtful. But this seems to have been a liability, Since it has it become a liability in our politics for someone to explain himself too much and to go out of his way not to offend folks who disagree with him. McCain stuck to more of a political stance and sought to pull on his campaign rhetoric as a method of avoiding the questions. McCain tended to give shorter, brief response. He barely answered the questions and instead sought applause lines.

I think it is amazing
that Rick Warren got the holier-than-thou Barack Obama to heel.

I don't mind if a religious leader interveiws candidates, but these two slick dudes wouldn't have done it if Warren wasn't a pushover.

I'd like to see a Jonathan Edwards type fellow interview these two.

...sinners...angry hands...etc.


Two by two....
Where do you come up with the purpose of Christians is to make others BELIEVE in Christ from this?

I see you have admitted that you cannot make anyone BELIEVE anything...so is your statement (seed) for thousands to read about the purpose of a Christian just as much as a bogous gospel as Rick Warrens whom you soundly and appropriately criticize?

Can you admit that you have been deceived in your zealousness to follow Christ? If so, repent and go slap your pastor.

Thanks, Star
Good column ,Star. I was pleasantly surprised at the way this interview was presented. I expected the worst and it wasn't that bad.

Warren asked some softball questions,but also,some hardball ones. Both answered about the way we expected them to answer.

Both candidates are lightweights and looked and sounded so.

Rick Warren
Warren is CFR and we are seeing the birthing of the apostate church. He doesn't preach the gospel of Jesus Christ but the gospel according to Bono. Good works and self righteousness.

He has already had Obama to Saddleback for his "aids" conference. The solution is condoms?


If you want to know more about Warren and what he has invited into his church, read "A Time of Departing" by Ray Yungen.


"In my view, THE TRILATERAL COMMISSION REPRESENTS A SKILLFUL, COORDINATED EFFORT TO SEIZE CONTROL AND CONSOLIDATE THE FOUR CENTERS OF POWER - POLITICAL, MONETARY, INTELLECTUAL AND ECCLESIASTICAL." B. Goldwater

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId =30874


Warren is on board with the "new world order". I guess he never read in his bible how that one world gov thing turns out.


I agree Star Parker
You make such excellent points!


DanNV
Thanks for the link. That was interesting.

Ms. Parker is correct
Rick Warren wants to stay neutral? As aChristian how can you claim to believe the Bible and remain neutral on topics like abortion and gay marriage. He doesn't seem to be neutral when it comes down to poverty and AIDS. How can he be neutral on abortion and gay marriage????? ANSWER: Its cool to beconcerned about poverty and AIDS, but "mean spirited" to be against abortion and gay marriage. Warren is too concerned about his image in a world gone crazy to be of any use at all. He should just put on his Hawaiian shirt, take his millions, sit out on the beach, along with friends Brian McLaren and Bill Hybells, and shut up for the rest of his life. Leave the preaching to someone who is not a coward.

Political vs. Church Leaders!
Ditto to: "We need political leaders that are more moral, not church leaders that are more political."

Rick Warren what are you doing trying to be a political leader? You do not have the moral authority, intellectual knowledge, and required experience!

Rick Warren
Rev,Warren has a feel-good message. Anyone can see that in his writings. Who goes to him for spiritual guidance?

A real pastor should condemn the bad and uplift the good. I expect my pastor to do that not Rick Warren.

The issue of moral relativity
is destroying the moral fabric of our society. Thanks for bringing this aspect of the spectacle at Saddleback into the forum. From a partisan standpoint, it was delightful watching Obama try to give a "non-answer" to the abortion question; the "above my pay grade" answer was damning in it's admission of his lack of moral clarity.
If he is the one he has been waiting for, shouldn't he know the answer?
He is a novice at best. McCain was better if only for the obvious strength of his conviction in his answers.

Mac'08

pharoah
No one has to slap anybody. Can't we talk?

I'm quoting from Luke 10. If Jesus said the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few, then sends our the seventy-two, two by two. They went in Jesus' name, healing in Jesus name and casting out demons in Jesus' name.

Jesus said they were lambs among wolves. He also said "He who listens to you listens to me."

The seventy-two returned excited that they had healed the sick in Jesus' name and demons submitted to them in Jesus' name.

Jesus said..."do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

The goal, it seems to me, is to get everyone to see that there is eternal life if we believe that Jesus is the savior of the world so they can have the same blessing that we have. Why would I not tell them that?


Pastor Warren provides Obama
with a priceless gift.

According to the Pew Research Center about 12% of voters believe "that the Democratic presidential candidate adheres to the Muslim faith": http://pewresearch.org/pubs/898/belief-that-obama-is-musli m-is-bipartisan-but-most-likely-to-sway-democrats

Pastor Warren helps to disregard the incorrect perception...

Can only Atheists ask Questions

I do NOT think Warren should have had the debate at his church.

I do NOT have a problem with Warren being the moderator. The format was the best I have seen in politics.

If a Christian cannot be the moderator then the President should NOT be a Christian.

The moderator should NOT be any more important than the Donkey was that Jesus rode into Jerusalem.

I received more information about the candidates last night than everything I have viewed or read so far.

How can Rev Jesse Jackson or Rev Al Sharpton be involved in politics but Rev Warren can't.

Information is information.


CH
I was doing nothing more than refuting the purpose of a Christian - as emphasized by you as their singular purpose - was to MAKE people believe. That is a false doctrine and needs to be exposed and refuted.

Read your words again and don't obfuscate your your teaching by supplementing it with Scripture that tells us to TEACH, REPROVE and REBUKE. Liek it equivocates with MAKING SOMEONE believe

Here is the appropriate Scriptural response to what our purpose is...

God has created different people for different purposes. To (the original) Pharoah in Exodus we learn "But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth"

You may think it is a little point but many Christians today are told by their pastors to go out and evangalize with an unscriptural charge to WIN souls for Jesus. This approach (hello Kirk Cameron) is obnoxious, arrogant and self-serving. It robs God of His Soveriengty and builds man/flesh.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw [Greek - drag] him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I haven't met a "evangel" who doesn't crumble under scrutiny or real questions about doctrine or Scripture. NO ONE should be teaching/preaching unless they can answer God's Truth sincerely and most importantly Scripturally.

Also consider - PAUL...who knew Scripture better than any man alive didn't evangalize for 13 years after the road to Damascus experience.

God is Holy and His Word is Truth. I don't take it lightly and neither should you. Now do me a favor and go slap your pastor....

Is any American Neutral on Abortion?

I haven't met one yet or heard about one.

Would everyone agree to a National Referendum on abortion where only women could vote and then settle the question once and for all?

Obama Answer from the Transcript
4 NOW, LET'S DEAL WITH ABORTION. 40 MILLION

5 ABORTIONS SINCE ROE V. WADE. YOU KNOW, AS A PASTOR I

6 HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS ALL OF THE TIME. ALL OF THE

7 PAIN AND ALL OF THE CONFLICTS. I KNOW THIS IS A VERY

8 COMPLEX ISSUE. 40 MILLION ABORTIONS. AT WHAT POINT

9 DOES A BABY GET HUMAN RIGHTS IN YOUR VIEW?

10 A. WELL, I THINK THAT WHETHER YOU ARE LOOKING AT

11 IT FROM A THEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE OR A SCIENTIFIC

12 PERSPECTIVE, ANSWERING THAT QUESTION WITH SPECIFICITY,

13 YOU KNOW, IS ABOVE MY PAY GRADE.

Pharaoh - not ambassadors, but disciples


Pharaoh wrote: “Christians are supposed to be.... AMBASSADORS for Christ. not lobbyists, not pundits, not moderators.”


It may seem like a small point, but the Apostles were ambassadors, chosen and appointed by Christ. We are to be disciples.

Dictionary.com
am•bas•sa•dor
–noun
1. a diplomatic official of the highest rank, sent by one sovereign or state to another as its resident representative (ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary).
2. a diplomatic official of the highest rank sent by a government to represent it on a temporary mission, as for negotiating a treaty.
3. a diplomatic official serving as permanent head of a country's mission to the United Nations or some other international organization.
4. an authorized messenger or representative.



~~~


Pharaoh wrote: “The Bible also tells Christians not to FORCE their corrupt doctrines (yes, all the churches doctrines are corrupt)…”

We cannot (and should not attempt to) force anyone to believe anything, but it is NOT true that “all the churches doctrines are corrupt”.

There are faithful, independent, non-denominational churches of Christ, all over the world, each of whose highest Authority in all things is the inspired Word of God in the Bible, and whose beliefs and practices reconcile and harmonize with God’s Word.

Here is one Bible study website that I encourage you to investigate for yourself, compare what is said to Scripture (cf. Acts 17:11), and see whether every doctrine is according to God’s Word in the Bible: http://www.gospelway.com

If you are interested in finding a faithful congregation of God’s people near you, please contact the website, and they will try to find a congregation in your area.


James Cone -> Mentor Wright -> Obama

"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community.

If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him.

The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy.

What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal.

Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love."
James Cone
New York's Union Theological Seminary

Mentor Wrights' theology is based on the teachings of James Cone.

"It was because of these newfound understandings (at Trinity under Wright) -- that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice...that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity...and be baptized." Barack Obama

Apparently not understanding what racism means is above the pay grade of Obama.

Obama and his church and Farrakhan

Obama followed Minister Louis Farrakhan to the million man march. Obama and his church and Pastor Wright gave Minister Farrakhan a 'Lifetime achievment award'. Minister Farrakhan is the head of the Nation of Islam.

"The white man is our mortal enemy, and we cannot accept him.

I will fight to see that vicious beast go down into the late of fire prepared for him from the beginning, that he never rise again to give any innocent black man, woman or child the hell that he has delighted in pouring on us for 400 years."
-- Louis Farrakhan, City College audience in New York

Obama: He Doesn't Get It
After hearing Obanma's answers:

It is apparent that he is not that smart. Referring to abortion he said something to the effect that this is a moral question a woman faces. DUH! Is that supposed to be profound?

Then he felt that common ground could be found between Pro-Lifers and Pro-Abortionists by simply REDUCING the number of abortions. I think most 8th graders are smarter than that knowing his suggestion is not a viable compromise position (as there is none). No murder is acceptable to the Pro-lifers.

He clearly does not get it. The Pro-life position sees abortion as murder. Allowing FEWER murders is not a place of common ground.
His view that the ultimate "right" of a to choose murder totally distorts his ability to think Biblically.


You mean I'm not alone with
NOT being OK with the candidates kissing the Rich Warren...er Rick Warren Ring? I'm sure Mr. Warren does good works. But this intentionlly blurs the lines of the Sixth ammendment of the Consituution. I would feel the same if leaders in my church called a meeting in Salt Lake, to propmote a political ideal. I want the church to say nutural. (By church, I mean all religious affiliations.) When a church dabbles in politics, other faiths get left out.

obama looked bad
in this interview. If he'd performed better, I bet ms. parker would be singing the praises (puns intended) of the objective, peace-seeking Warren. The fact is, that Saddlebrook place is not holy ground--it's just a building where 3,000 (!) people go to listen to Warren talk about God. Even a Catholic church becomes just a building when the tabernacle containing the Eucharist is removed (for secular events or remodeling). There is nothing wrong with a preacher (of whatever stripe) taking off his vestments to moderate two differing sides.

Obviously it took an Act of God, through a Godly man, to get obama to sit down and answer a few reasonable questions. Perhaps the msm will be forced to ask a few, too....

Wow
There are so many good comments on this thread.

CH #29 exactly, excellent point
Anna good suggestion but there's an ego involved.
Rightviewpoint..I thought the same thing last night, it's going to give Obama the cover he needs.

Star Parker has had a rough life before coming to the Lord, so she's certainly got a strong
perspective on what she saw. We've been so indoctrinated on the bogus "establishment clause" that we haven't consulted the historical
place the church had in our culture from before
the Revolution. It was Pastors that taught the
congregations the facts about what was happening to the colonies, and they prepared the people for the Revolution years before and
what the Christians position would be.
(per Peter Marshall jr., pardon paraphrase).
these pastors didn't take prisoners, they called sin SIN, but pastors like Warren shy away
from the sin issues. And I think Star was
trying to point that out. People can use every foul and curse word in existence (unless it's George Allen)but sin is an obscenity and Jesus is a curse word. They don't want to hear it., they want their ears tickled.
Having said that, I was surprised it did turn out as well and we did get insight into the
thinking of the candidates and that McCain isn't a senile old curmudgeon, he was sharp and humorous..does Obama have any sense of humor?

pharoah
I think i get it...
you believe predestination.

I think God is merciful, 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise...He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.' 2Pete 3:9

Rick Warren can do whatever he wants...cure AIDS, stop poverty, moderated presidential debates, etc. I take issue when he does it all in the name of Jesus and leaves out essential elements of our faith. He should try to figure out his purpose in life, because he could be confusing a lot of people.

Scott
(2Co 5:20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Where, in Scripture, do you get that only Apostles are ambassadors? Where are we told that Apostles are categorzied different then you and me? I read to "be as He is in this world".

An ambassador to any country cannot involve himself in improving the country to which he is sent. That is not his concern. We have an ambassador to Iran. If our ambassador to Iran gets involved in the politics of that country and starts demonstrating against the terrible condition of women and starts a campaign to improve the treatment of women in Iran, he would be immediately withdrawn from his ambassador's position.

Have you never wondered why Christ never suggested that anyone should demonstrate against the Romans?

Where is Christ's kingdom? Where do the living Sons and Daughters of Christ claim citizenship?

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

There is lots more of these things in Scripture you don't seem to be aware of. I seriously doubt dictionary.com or gospelway.com can harmonize the corrupt doctrines taught in EACH and every church today. Of course, I suppose your church is right and the other 32,999 are wrong but remember Christ is not divided.







obama 3, mccain 8.5
First off, I'm not into the whole religion thing. I thought Obama bunted, McCain hit a stand up triple. ABOVE MY PAY GRADE? What kind of pre-presidential answer is that?

robert
I don't care for Robertson or Falwell, but c'mon, while you're slinging the Blame Mud, don't forget about reverend jackson, reverend al sharpton, and reverend jeremiah wright.

As usual, when things don't go the way libs have scripted them, suddenly libs start pointing fingers to the guy on the "right."

Whatever.

Sabotage
Leftists know that true, biblical Christianity will always be diametrically opposed to leftist ideology. They know the only way they can reduce the influence of Christianity on politics is to blur the lines and make it seem as though good Christians disagree on issues that they really do not and cannot. (No one can read the Bible honestly and conclude that it approves of homosexuality or "gay marriage.") To accomplish that, many leftists have infiltrated churches and sabotaged them from within. Those churches have been corrupted and are now little more than tools for "progressive" social engineering.

The Left politicizes churches even as it screams bloody murder every time a conservative politician mentions God - or even worse, Jesus! It's a knife that is designed to cut only one way: in the Left's favor.

My understanding is that Warren is not a full-blown leftist, but he fails to uphold biblical standards of morality by downplaying them in the name of "not being divisive" or "focusing on AIDS and poverty." I call that moral cowardice.

retired geek...
what ranger29 meant was that most Americans are not fanatical on one side of the abortion issue or the other.

polls have consistently shown that the majority of Americans believe that early abortion should be a legal choice, but they don't like the later-term abortions.

unfortunately, you have the right-wing zealots who think that birth control pills are murder...and on the other side you have the Planned Parenthood zealots who believe that anything less than abortion on demand for no reason until the baby crowns is unacceptable.

I always find it ironic that the anti-abortion crowd is usually the same people as the pro-war crowd. the lesson is, if you want to kill babies just wait till they're 18 and in the Army and it's ok.

Obama's idiotic comment about this "not being in his pay grade" was a take on the general who made that same comment some time ago about Iraq. Obama is simply trying to get elected. I don't know what he believes or doesn't believe. but I do know that Rev. Wright was right about Barack being a politican...

CH, close...
I believe that God is SOVEREIGN. Big difference.

You are right about Warren. I went to his church for many years in the early-mid 90's and was as carnal as the day is long but felt "good". I still have quite a few friends there I keep in touch with who are good people.

Let me give you more to consider regarding the Scripture you cite.

Isaiah 14:24 [ A Prophecy Against Assyria ] The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.

It says: God plans and executes His will.

Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

It Says: No one can resist God and his purpose. Man's will does not matter.

Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

It says: God carries out all of his desires.

Isaiah 46:11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

Hopefully, if God has given you eyes to see and ears to hear you can now harmonize these with this verse (read slowly and carefully):

1Ti 4:10-11 (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (11) These things command and teach.

Is there any pastor out there teaching that God is the Savior of ALL men (all means all unless you are a politician or theologin).




C.H.
Amen! You hit the nail on the head. All you need to do is read your Bible not pad a phony guys pocket.

People like lydia are the reason Hollywood and Washington are swimming in power and money.

Lydia sweetie you are a lamb led to slaughter.

Redmeat
Your rebuttal was better than the article. What he/she said!

ruth...a few points, please:
1.Most Americans have swallowed the old "there but by the Grace of God go I" argument and are unwilling to vociferously condemn abortion because "hey, I coulda had an unwanted pregnancy, too, so who am I to judge?" Part of Christianity is not judging each other--and non-Christians have used that against us for centuries. So, while polls may show us unwilling to condemn an early "oops" abortion, we still know it's a bad thing and is wrong.

2. How DARE YOU imply that our Army is anything but a volunteer force comprised of free, intelligent, highly informed ADULTS? Did you seriously think that hateful and ignorant comment would go unnoticed?

3. You give obama WAY too much credit. First, he doesn't listen to generals enough to remember their comments and second, the term "pay grade" is something civilians adopted long ago from the military and have been using in ignorance. obama spoke in platitudes and cliches, "pay grade" was just another term he pulled out of his shallow magic hat.


Actions speak louder than words.
While the style of the forum might have been more informing than what msm implements which is merely a means of injecting bias, pandering and muddying the waters on issues.

Just as the government and politics don't want religion in politics I don't want politics in churches or religion. In my opinion Warren was way out off base.

This kind of forum has now set the stage for Jessie Jackson, Uncle Al and all the rest to hold their own "faith and values" forms. these forums will no doubt be structured to defend the racist comments made by Jeremiah Wright to "educate ol whitey" about black liberation theology.

Warren walked right into it and I have to wonder what his motive was? With Billy Graham's declining health I hope it's not a political move on his part to insert himself as the next presidential and national spiritual leader.

True believers do not need someone to ask candidates about their values and morals. Scripture tells me you will know the tree by the fruit it bears and in the book of James it was recorded "I will show you my faith by my works". I knew the values and morals of both candidates before Warren sat down with them. They are revealed in the company they keep and the tasks they have set their hands to.

By the way I did not watch the forum as a matter of principle. The pulpit was not the place for this.


Lestat
'To accomplish that, many leftists have infiltrated churches and sabotaged them from within. Those churches have been corrupted and are now little more than tools for "progressive" social engineering.'

Beautifully said.


The apostle Paul was such a good example to follow. He was always cognizant of how he represented Christ. He was itinerant...so he didn't have a BIG church where he could park himself for 30 years and be lauded into believing he might be a little smarter than Jesus.





This just gives Warren...
exposure. These mega-church pastors want a big tent and so they try to appeal to all sides. Something like Joel Osteen when he was on Larry King and refused to say people are condemned for not accepting Jesus. Billy Graham, ditto, when interviewed by Robert Schuller. Politics and positive thinking are a lot of what these preachers and churches are about. And wider exposure in the mainstream press to draw the crowds and the money in.

soul
I have to respectfully disagree with you. There was NO pulpit in sight! It looked like a big, plain auditorium. Not even any stained glass, or candles, or Christian anything.

While I am also leery of Warren's motives (great point about the 'spiritual adviser'!)I have to say that he really didn't act offensive or preachy. I did watch the whole thing because it the first time I have ever seen obama unscripted.

Since obama has either refused a debate or made one impossible, a lot of us have had no chance to see or hear him. I want to see and hear the man who would be MY president. I'm just sad that the only person who could get him to "play ball" was a secular Christian.


Imagine if------
Warren can get away with it because he is Rick Warren. Imagine the howl if Mitt R

Imagine if------
Imagine the howl if Mitt Romney had even been invited to participate; imagine the howl that would go up if Obama and McCain had been invited to debate in the Conference Center in Salt Lake City! Rick Warren got away with it because of who he is!

Imagine if
Ooops, hit the wrong button---sorry for the duplication

"does Obama have any sense of humor?"
Tea Party wrote Aug 17, 2008 - 10:43 PM EST

"...I was surprised it did turn out as well and we did get insight into the thinking of the candidates and that McCain isn't a senile old curmudgeon, he was sharp and humorous..does Obama have any sense of humor?"
___________


Anyone who becomes a leftist is losing the sense of humor first. It is one of basic laws of nature.


Soldier's of God
The responses about the question of evil were the most revealing. Obama’s answer was very introspective. He said, “Evil does exist. I mean, I think we see evil all the time. . . .I strongly believe is that . . . we are not going to, as individuals, be able to erase evil from the world. That is God's task, but we can be soldiers in that process, and we can confront it when we see it.” He humble in the face of God an saw himself as a soldier in God’s against evil. He was an instrument of the Lord. Whereas McCain’s answer was not introspective. There was no humility from him. For most Christians, the first response to that question would not be "Al Qaeda" and following Bin Laden to the gates of hell. Most Christians do not believe that they alone can defeat evil, they understand that is God’s task-- but they are soldiers in his army.

Armywife88
Using the term pulpit I was not referring to a podium I was referring to the church itself. Contemporary places of worship like Saddleback are built as multiple purpose buildings.

However churches are dedicated houses of worship. They are the place where like belivers gather to focus on things of spiritual matters. The dedication of the building in essence recognizes that God is the owner of the building regardless of it's architecture.

There are three debates scheduled between McCain and Obama in the next few months. I did see a few of the clips and agree that Warren didn't appear preachy nor did I expect him to. That is his style.

I respect your position and your opinion and remain committed to my opinion that the church is nowhere for politicans.

Soldiers of God
The responses about the question of evil were the most revealing. Obama’s answer was very introspective. He said, “Evil does exist. I mean, I think we see evil all the time. . . .I strongly believe is that . . . we are not going to, as individuals, be able to erase evil from the world. That is God's task, but we can be soldiers in that process, and we can confront it when we see it.” He humble in the face of God an saw himself as a soldier in God’s against evil. He was an instrument of the Lord. Whereas McCain’s answer was not introspective. There was no humility from him. For most Christians, the first response to that question would not be "Al Qaeda" and following Bin Laden to the gates of hell. Most Christians do not believe that they alone can defeat evil, they understand that is God’s task-- but they are soldiers in his army.

Pharaoh - reply to post #47 (Part 1)


Pharaoh wrote: “Where, in Scripture, do you get that only Apostles are ambassadors? Where are we told that Apostles are categorzied different then you and me?”


In many places.

The apostles had to be eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ (Acts 1:21,22; 1 Corinthians 9:1; 15:8; Acts 2:32; 3:15; etc.).

Apostles confirmed their apostleship by doing miracles (2 Corinthians 12:12; Mark 16:20; Acts 3:1-10; 9:32-42; etc.).

Those who received this miraculous power from the apostles, could not in turn pass it on to others (Acts 8:5-18).

All apostles received direct guidance of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4; Ephesians 3:3-5; John 16:13; 14:26).

All apostles received the power to "bind and loose.” Some claim that Jesus, in Matthew 16:19, gave exclusively to Peter the power to bind and loose, but Matthew 18:18 shows that others also had the same power.

John 20:22-23 - All apostles had power to forgive or retain sins, but only as guided by the Holy Spirit. No apostle could originate laws but could only reveal the laws God made. They did this by revealing and preaching the gospel. If men obey, their sins are forgiven; if not, their sins are retained - Romans 1:16; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:36-41; etc.

Paul affirmed he was equal with other apostles in every way - 2 Corinthians 11:5; 12:11.

All apostles were ambassadors for Christ (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:20).


Pharaoh - reply to post #47 (Part 2)


Pharaoh wrote: “Where is Christ's kingdom?”

Not of this world (cf. John 18:36).


~~~


Pharaoh wrote: “Where do the living Sons and Daughters of Christ claim citizenship?”

In the kingdom of Christ.


~~~


Pharaoh wrote: “There is lots more of these things in Scripture you don't seem to be aware of.”

There are many things contained within the 66 books of the Bible; of a necessity, we can barely have scratched the surface in the exchange of a single post, prior to this one.


~~~


Pharaoh wrote: “I seriously doubt dictionary.com or gospelway.com can harmonize the corrupt doctrines taught in EACH and every church today”

Dictionary.com was simply a reference used to define the word “ambassador”, you may choose any other common reference source for the definition if you are unhappy with dictionary.com

But what you may (or may not) seriously doubt is irrelevant. Isn’t what God’s Word actually says (and does not say) the important thing?


http://www.gospelway.com teaches what the Word of God says. If you find any doctrine that does not reconcile or harmonize with God’s Word in the Bible, they would most certainly appreciate hearing from you, and the opportunity to examine your claims with an open mind and an open Bible.


If you believe that “corrupt doctrines” are “taught in EACH and every church today”, then you have examined the church of Christ carefully, and you have not found a single congregation that is faithful to God’s Word, according to Scripture?

If (as you contend) there is no church that is faithful to Christ in the world, if every church is corrupt and has therefore had its candlestick removed (cf. Revelation chapters 2 and 3), then must your position not be that we are all lost? Only those within the body of Christ are saved, are they not?

Can we be saved outside the body of Christ, and if you say yes, what Scripture do you use to support such a doctrine, without contradicting other Scripture?


Pharaoh- reply to post #47 (Part 3 of 3)


Pharaoh wrote: “Of course, I suppose your church is right and the other 32,999 are wrong but remember Christ is not divided.”

It is not “my” church, it is the Lord’s church, which He established on the day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts chapter 2, and evidenced by the following verse:

“Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” (Acts 2:47, KJV)


You are of course correct that Christ is not divided (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:13).


There are thousands of different organizations that classify themselves as “churches” of one kind of another. According to the Word of God in the Bible, there is only One church that belongs to Him. The Lord’s church has many members, but it is ONE body:

“[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6)


There is ONE head of the body, Jesus Christ.

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.” (Colossians 1:18)


Christ is the Savior of the body:

“For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.” (Ephesians 5:23)


If we are not a member of the body of Christ, the church that Jesus created, then how can we be saved?


BHO
My husband and son both say all the time that they think Obama is the Anti-Christ. & I think he is evil.

Warren's was right
This was forum for the Evangelical -- Christian vote -- and that is where the Church and State collides! BAM!! McCain 10, Obama 0

whoa now, army wife
"while polls may show us unwilling to condemn an early "oops" abortion, we still know it's a bad thing and is wrong."

--no, that was not what I said. my point was the majority of Americans do NOT believe an early-term abortion is wrong. that may not fit with your ideas, but it happens to be the truth.

"How DARE YOU imply that our Army is anything but a volunteer force comprised of free, intelligent, highly informed ADULTS? Did you seriously think that hateful and ignorant comment would go unnoticed?"

--not sure why that was such a "hateful and ignorant" comment.

it is quite true that anti-abortion partisans also tend to support pro-war positions.

but I'm confused, because I don't believe I said anything about the soldiers themselves, did I? other than to point out that sending 18-year-old kids off to die in unnecesary wars is tragic. I mean: don't you?

"You give obama WAY too much credit. First, he doesn't listen to generals enough to remember their comments..."

first of all, I rather think Obama would remember this one: it happened in 2005 as Donald Rumsfeld appeared before the House Armed Services committee, and it was Gen. Casey who said it. the remark was pretty widely disseminated in the press. anybody who'd been paying any attention to politics will remember it.

secondly, while I am not an Obama supporter, I do give him more credit than you and some of these other posters do. anyone who claims that he is "not smart" is just deluding themselves. he's plenty smart. you may not agree with his positions, but that doesn't mean you get to call him stupid.

You are right in Principle but...
this time the Saddleback Interview gave America the best and ONLY chance so far to see both candidates clearly.

Anyone watching that interview who can STILL vote for Obama is simply ignorant or a fully-committed socialist of the first order.

Obama is simply NOT AMERICAN enough in his core beliefs to be POTUS.

Much to my surprise, Rick Warren did a great service for the Amercian people.

That interview proved that John McCain should be the next POTUS and that Obama should NEVER
be POTUS under any circumstances.

He hates America - you can see it in his eyes. There is not light in his eyes and his demeanor is that of an arrogant radical.

He does not think he should have to answer any questions from anyone - least of all the American people.

Yank the Tax Exemption
I have about had enough of politicians using churches for campaign events; I am equally disgusted with ministers and parishioners being used by the venal for the corrupt. I think that any church that allows itself to be used by these conniving hypocrites should have their tax-exempt status yanked immediately. There is a clamor for 'separation of church and state' in this nation that borders on the totally ridiculous until some self-righteous bas**** needs a public venue for free advertisement and some type of publicity that borders on respectability, then churches become acceptable. This is a bunch of rot and it needs to stop immediately. No church should ever be involved in any political campaign, nor should a minister use the frock to participate in such. I think that the verse, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's" is appropriate here.

Star has it right
Allowing a rabid pro-choice hack like Barack Obama to enjoy a platform in a Christian church is wrong, even if it's a seeker-friendly-mega-sorta-church. I'm no fan of McCain, but there is immeasurable harm done to the body of Christ when we allow the leftist-first-Christian-second crowd to believe they have an honorable option in Obama, and that's precisely what Saddleback Sam is doing here. Christ said "suffer the children to come unto me," not "suffer moms to kill their children." It's disgusting to see a Christian pastor giving credence to someone so clearly adverse to the teachings of Christ.

Obama a soldier of God???
Bullshirt, he is too much a coward to be a soldier of anything. Just like Clinton, these cowards reveal themselves by showing their distain for the men and women so much braver than they.

And how stupid to believe that we as individuals can not confound evil - the U.S. and its Allies just kicked the shite out of evil if Iraq and Afghanistan at with record low casualties (on our side). Now treasonist Robbie wants to complain about the woman and babies killed, yet neglects to mention that they were the targets of Al Queda (apparently the team he was rooting for).

Never doubt the power of the individual truly inspired by God as opposed to the politician wrapping himself in lamb's skin.

Occam's Razor
I have a lot of admiration for Star Parker and her insight. I also believe that many of you are thoughtful in your comments. But, let's apply Occam's razor and try to evaluate the real essence of this "Civic Forum."

Warren provided a neutral site and asked the same questions of the two candidates. Everyone watching and listening got to hear the candidates individual response to each of these questions, and I am sure they came away with a better understanding of the inner thoughts, general knowledge, and political positions of the candidates.

To me, that was the essence of the forum, and there is nothing wrong with that!







STAR: YOU SAY
our problem is moral ambiguity, and then tell us to forget about those whose job it is to deal with morals. This has about as much logic as saying the government should take over [fill in the blank]. Politicians make bad educators, health care providers, social security administrators, farmers, etc. They are also notoriously bad at practicing good morals. They need to consult educators, doctors, financial planners, and yes, the clergy for help in the above areas. Our problems ensue when the politicians think that their successful political campaigns make them experts on everything.

I like your columns, Star, but on this one you missed the mark. Last night's forum was the most helpful discussion to date in this year's political discourse. And if not Pastor Warren, then who?

Refreshing actually and relevant
So, would it have been better to have had MSNBC moderators or YouTube politically planted hacks all designing their questions to make Obama look holy and McCain look like a dweeb?

Sorry, Star, this was a refreshing event and since Obama won't agree to any townhalls, it will be probably the only neutral and fair performance by the two candidates in a question/answer format for the remainder of the electoral process.

This was not a church service where anyone was learning about God. Rev Wright did just a fantastic job of that..so did Pleger and so is Moss. This meeting did not hurt religion or Christianity. This was a meeting to discuss issues important to Christians, Catholics, Evangelicals and others who want to know how the candidates feel about their own important issues that will certainly not be covered in the MSM where belief in God is taboo topic.

Pastor Warren's Forum
Think you have this wrong,Star Parker.This by far the best managed and fair Q&A of the 2008 political season, and left little doubt who our next President should be.In a hostile world in which we live, and the economic and social ills we face here in the U.S.A, we don't need a rookie leftie, we need the old, solid, you can depend on rightie, to come in and pitch.

Will someone please explain to me
why NO ONE ever questions years of political speeches in black churches, but let the political discourse hit a white church, and it's "controversial"?

No Medal, Star
The most important election in the free world is going to take place in less than 100 days, and I don't care where Americans see or hear the views of the candidates.
Points for style, structure, and effort, but you missed the landing. Sorry, Star, no medal for you.

KUDOS TO YOU!!!
Star, I applaud your willingness to state, succinctly so, an honest, accurate appraisal of Pastor Warren's efforts. I can only imagine you will be rebuffed soundly by well-intentioned, though nonetheless erroneous Christian conservatives who will no doubt skip over the validity of your points in an attempt to bolster what they will have perceived as a resounding victory for their non-Obama candidate. I spent more than twenty-five years in various ministries, and still believe in the very simple concept of clearly delineating right from wrong, moral from immoral or amoral, and leaving the rest up to God and His grace. While I do feel strongly that Christians can, and in fact SHOULD participate in the arena of political debate, I do not believe that they or or their churches should for the sake of expediency or acceptance feign or actually embrace ambivalence or relativism.

William Carr, Los Angeles

Evangelicals are not monolithic
They are not necessarily "one issue voters". Some of them have trouble with high energy prices. Some of them do not have health care. Some of them have opinions on the Iraq war. Some of them are losing their homes because of a bad mortgage. Some of them have opinions on illegal aliens. Etc.

NOW that is how to live the faith.
Easy to talk about,but let us discuss how we can achieve our goals.

First let us get rid of those who might oppose us.
1. Quakers
2. Shakers
3. Christ-killers
--->Do not fret left-behinders. There are plenty of them in the Holy Land who can fulfill the final prophecy
4. Mormons
--->Jesus walked in North America? How can ever do business with these people
5. Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, all the rest of that asian idolotry
6. Jehovah Witnesses
7. Russian Orthodox Church
8. Islam (obviously)
9. Atheists
10 Catholics
--->only if the get uppity.

Now I normally try not to reinvent the wheel. So I think we should look to other countries who have been governing according to religious doctrine.

1. Saudi Arabia
--->remember when the mullahs prevent female student from escaping from a burning school building because the girls were not properly dress. NOW that is how to live the faith.
2. Taliban
---> Yes granted, they should have provided sanctuary to OBAMA.(ooops, i meant to say Osama)
They were very proficient a keeping the citizens in line with their faith.
3. Iran

Now I know many of you are buckling over with the thought of copying muslims.
We are not going to duplicate their governments, however they are doing some things right.
Spare the Rod...

Let us all pray for the day when SUpreme Court looks first at the BIBLE and then the constitution.

Let us also pray for rain in Denver

Troll29
As usual, you don’t know you’re a$$ from a hole in the ground.

No pope ever uttered the words: “Kill them all. Let God sort them out.” That is a 20th century ad-lib of convenience.

In 1209, during the "Albigensian Crusade" against the Cathar heresy in Southern France, the forces of Orthodox Catholicism had been besieging the city of Beziers, defended by the Cathar heretics, for some time.

It was Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeaux, a monk, who stated: “Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet.” (Kill them all. God will know His own.)

A monk, Wobbie. Not a pope.

F MINUS

never nuetral
Not posturing as neutral but asking question that deserve an answer. Where else will someone be asking focused questions of morality other than in a church? Who else owns that domain rather than Pastor Warren and his fellow pastors and priests, etc?

Saddleback Happening
The Saddleback Happening is all over the news-I can't get away from it so I turned off the television. And I most certainly did not watch it.

Mr. Warren never did impress me as a Church leader or Preacher of the Word; I would consider him more of a motivational speaker and a little too saccharine for my taste-artificial.

As far as Senators McCain and Obama I shudder. Neither of them is a strong defender of the Constitution, they are both internationalist and neither impresses me as being overly honest. So as with the majority of Presidential elections in my life I will vote against the Evil of Two Lessers, or Lesser of two Evils however you want to put it.This will be my tenth Presidential election and Ronald Reagan was my only FOR vote, and for that I am greatful.

Rick Warren
Sorry, the conversations with Warren were far more helpful than anything done by any of the institutions you state as being the proper forums for our Presidential candidates. I learned more from this event, than all of CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and any speech given by either McCain or Obama.

A Good Thing
The debates this year were a joke. The moderators bias didn't help.

We Christians do not leave our citizenship and responsibility at home when we attend church.

I'd never heard of Rick Warren, but the answers to his questions were helpful. Obama measured his answers. He tried to reach the crowd he was addressing without offending his base.

There is no such thing as "separation of church and state." Nada.

Would you rather we make our decision based on the commentary of Chris Matthews.

Rick's Forum
Did you watch the show? It was evident that Obama worked to give the answers he thought the viewers wanted to hear. John just answered the questions from his heart and life. The contrast between the two men was obvious.

The constitution was designed to keep the state out of religion. It is impossible for one committed to any religion to keep that religion out of their politics. if they can they are not committed.

I thought Rick worked hard to seem to welcome both men, but it also seemed ot me he was much more welcome and appreciative to John's comments and answers.

ENTERTAIMENT SELLS
Though I agree that "religious leaders" should stick to religious principles and issues, religion and politics do impact each other.
What "sells" and gets the highest "ratings" in our country and our culture is the ENTERTAINMENT QUOTIENT of all of our media, unfortunately this includes sermons. However, this is what our citizens listen to and are influenced by.
Entertainment should only be a temporary and brief escape or respite from the challenges and responsibilities of reality, as were square dances years ago, before radio, tv and the internet. Now we are a people obsessed and addicted to entertainment 24/7. Americans used to honor patriotic heros, many of them, then became celebrities, now celebrities are idolized first and very very few have then become patriotic heros.
Hopefully, the entertainment of Pastor Warrens Forum did bring at least some reality into the decision making of our voters.
The candidates, because of the publics demands for entertainment, must sink to that level while campaigning. But once in Office, our country will not survive if led by an "AMERICAN IDOL".

Ms.Parker Bias....
I think Ms.Parker your objections have a "double
standard" in that I don't think you were as vocal when Rev.Wright used HIS church to disparage-"God Dam* America"-NOR did you protest
Pfliger when he 'acted Black in mocking a White
Candidate, Hillary'? While you may seem to lean towards the MSM?, the biased reporters, or professors(for more cerebral commentary?) who would "Slant anything towards the Left"-I felt it was the FIRST time I got to hear two people who want to become POTUS-Given the very SAME questions, in a civilized manner, with time to answer, by a HOST, who stayed "in the middle", thus letting the guests go either way. At least
in MHO, Warren wasn't screaming, walking like some "cocky Rooster" as if he were at a concert.
Perhaps with ALL the hatreds in our country, it
was the FIRST time people WERE civil in an atmosphere that WAS a level forum, by a person who happened to be a true believer in a Higher Power. Would AN ATHIEST HAVE PROVEN YOUR POINT BETTER MS. PARKER, SINCE YOU DON'T MIND THE LEFT
ACADEMIA BEING INVOLVED?

Star, i disagree

Warren used his forum and format to get the candidates to answer questions that people of religion might have interest. The candidates participated willingly and we learned much more than we would have done in a conventional debate forum. No cute direct replies, no talking over.

And we already have too many secular writers trying to do pastor's jobs and failing. I had no problem with his brief foray into the arena, and the rules were clear up front.



consistency a virtue
there is something to be said for consistency as a virtue. on the other hand there is something to be said for stupidity being consistent. such is the case with Ms parker
ive only been reading her colums for a few months so i probably dont have a true base line from which to measure the relative degree of stupidity exhibited in each column. i can only work with what ive got.
her columns have almost perectly gone consistently bad on almost a perfect negative gradient. bad. not evil, just bad. they say nothing (although she does seem to be aware of what she is doing in that most are shorter then the average bear) still , as she has shown, you can =pack a lot ot TNT (stupidity) in a very small casing. if her original article was rated plus 100 she is down around plus 2 now and i am starting to do reseach on the posibility of negatve ratings.

For Michigan Ruth
You said: " always find it ironic that the anti-abortion crowd is usually the same people as the pro-war crowd. the lesson is, if you want to kill babies just wait till they're 18 and in the Army and it's ok." Well, that's a left talking point you have there, and the same one they use to protest the death penalty. You are missing two points. One, killing innocent babies is a different moral issue than having the state execute evil adults. As for the volunteer military, men and women are considered to be adults at 18 and know when they volunteer that they may have to lay their life down to protect the rest of us. THat is a selfless act of the highest order and you should not demean it. And then your final point that pro-lifers send 18 year olds out to die: you are inferring that only Republicans send our troops out to die. But if you will check the roll call, there are plenty of Democrats, who are certainly not pro-life, who vote to send our troops to war. It is your own moral ambiguity that mistakes these two polar opposites as the same issue. And in case you don't know, "our troops" include a whole lot of people who are not 18. NCO's, officers, generals, the experienced military are not 18, but it is their job to train them and lead them. It is obvious that they have done an outstanding job. We have lost fewer troops in the years of this conflict than die in America every year in traffic accidents.

I'd love to make a comment ...
about Ms. Parker's column, but really, it's above my pay grade.

In all sincerity, I can see Ms. Parker's point. As a Christian, I'm a little tired of the foray into politics many pastors seem to have taken. Dobson comes immediately to mind.

I also agree with Ms. Parkers sentiments about moral ambiguity. However, as a Christian American who loves his liberty and the freedom afforded me to worhsip as I choose, I have to realize that that same liberty applies to those who wish to not be moral. Therefore, I'm tired of some evangelicals attempts to make sin illegal.

We cannot use force of law to impose Biblical precepts on society except where they meet with individual liberty. In my opinion, doing so has at least two negatives. First, it causes some who may be open to Biblical truth to shut down and build walls in defense. Second, it weekens our God. Think about it. Our God, creator of all things, Supreme in all the universe, needs some two-bit legislator to pass a law for people to recognize Him? Gimme a break!

Pastor Warren's Pulpit
Lesser known voices, such as Steve Camp, have been espousing the same wisdom for some time now. Glad to see at least one of the Townhall pundits bring this to light as well. The church has its own mission and that mission needs its full attention.

Sophia C. Schwarz

In a World of Moral Ambiguity
In a world that is becoming increasingly immoral and anti-Christian. Where the voice of Christians are becoming more stifled, I applaud Mr. Warren for his efforts. Unlike the Hollywood leftist elites who "shove" their political and moral filth down our throats, Rick Warren did just the opposite. He approached each candidate regardless of their views very objectively. Using the church merely to house the forum is not any kind of covert religious politicizing of the Christian faith. Today's debates and forums on the public mainstream media seem to gloss over the social issues that really matter (i.e. abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, faith, etc.) and Rick Warren touched on these issues and therefore every candidates stand on these issues were made very clear.

I hope Rick Warren's Faith Forum becomes a long-standing tradition for many more years to come.

Breath of Fresh Air
What a bunch of victim mentality. Star claims Pastor Rick "contributes to moral ambiguity." What I saw was the first time in my voting history that opposing candidates were brought together and queried about substantive issues. Pastor Rick put the "professional media" to shame by using a forum at Saddleback Church to conduct an open, unbiased session that brought out more than trite campaign rhetoric in only one hour apiece. It was for me, a breath of fresh air. How you tie his efforts to educate the public at large to your concern for the disease and drug infected black population that is poor and uneducated is a weak excuse for an attack on what happened at the church. Oh yeah, I forgot the victim mentality, "it's always someone else's fault!"

Rick Warren has compromised principles
In his quest to make a difference in the world, he has compromised what should be biblical positions.

He is supposed to be a light in the world, especially as a Pastor in a mega-church. But he has chosen to shade that light into grey so he can meld into the world system. This is what he has done.

Virtually every one of our social problems are connected to spiritual issues. You can't solve spiritual issues in carnal fashion, or in a worldly way.

Whether it's poverty, racism or AIDs. These can never be solved using man's methods, using social programs because they are spiritual issues. Division is a spiritual issue, poverty is a spiritual issue.

Using social methods to solve spiritual issues is like using dandruff shampoo for brain cancer.

In my opinion, Rick Warren has traded in the Kingdom of God, the power of the Bible, for a name in the world, for a legacy, for a statue somewhere.

God in the Public Square
It is true that the liberal socialists in our society have done their best to eradicate God from our society. Thankfully, they have not succeeded. Why should the church not have a forum to question these candidates? Are they less deserving than the NAACP? Should they be silenced while NARAL is allowed to publicly lobby for their obsessive support of abortion? I am not familiar with Rick Warren or his ministry - but I am a lot more familiar now with McCain and Obama. The choice is clear.

I did not see the debate
but if Whyamisurprised is telling the truth, that Pastor Rick got to real issues while the media (we know this is true) skirts the issues for the sake of harmony, then I am with Whyami.

Star's article talks about several issues but fails to pull them together into one clear, single point. It sounds a little too much like the old "Christians should stay out of politics" garbage that we hear all the time from the left.

The truth is, religion and politics are inextricably linked and always have been. Politics is about the way we live and react with the world and each other. How can these issues possibly be seperated from religion? If a man of God is not willing to get down in the trenches and make us look at things truthfully, then who will?

I think one of the reasons America has lost her Christian mooring is because for way too many years, Christians were willing to sit back and leave the most important issues in the hands of politicians.

It was our job, and we failed to do it.

Saddleback Event
Star, you are so wrong!!! The format at the Saddleback church Saturday night was so much better than those idiotic debates a few months ago where each candidate had a minute and 30 seconds to get their points across to the public. This event was much more informative and I think that format should be used again instead of the regular formal debates. Much more interesting than debates!!!

"Pastor" Warren's Forum
Star Parker's column makes a point that bypasses many professing Christians today. When professing Christians are willing to use their facilities for POLITICAL PURPOSES, they are not using that facility for the purposes for which it was intended. The "pulpit" is for preaching The Gospel of Christ", not for political forums, debates, or any other purpose than for preaching and teaching the Word of God.

She is right; religion for the most part in America has shifted into the shadowy areas of ambiguity. When that happens, Bible Truth is compromised. We would have a much more strong and stable nation if our preachers and members of these churches that are willing to engage in such things, would just do what is supposed to be done in "church", worship God "in spirit and Truth" (John 4:24). Political forums are not worship of God.

Just the Beginning
Warren has produced a broadcast quality two hour show which will surely be widely used for information and discussion between now and the election. If it demonstrates moral ambiguity. some may use the show to combat that. Warren may not seek to be the conscience of the nation, but others will.
As for using the church building, maybe Parker is for locking rhe doors and keeping the church clean. Remember, the great cathedrals served as hotels for pilgrims who camped out inside. The doors were high enough to accomodate men on horses. The pilgrims cooked and caroused all night in the naves. Parker might have ben scandalized.

Warren Should Do All Of Them
You have to be kidding. The news media asks the same questions over and over in their stilted moderated debates. We get the same canned answers in those debates and now that we have a decent format, and a person who actually elicited new information from the candidates, you media types want to pull the plug on future ones?

You media types are fond of poll results. I say, let's have a poll - Who does a better job of getting information out of our candidates Rick Warren or the DC/NY media? Which format do you like better for Q&A? Do you think the DC/NY media panders to candidates to get them to come on their news shows or sit down for an interview? In that same poll, you could ask for an approval rating for the DC/NY media. Warren doesn't have to pander. Warren never mentioned shivers running up his leg, either. And Warren's livelihood doesn't depend on one of those guys becoming president and granting favors.

I don't know anything about Warren (didn't read his book or care to) but he did a heck of a job. Maybe next time we should get that guy who's on Inside The Actors Studio to talk to the candidates...

The ''borderless and indistinguishable''
--
Hell, that's all we're allowed any more, isn't it?

Good ghod, Ms. Parker, but what the hell *ELSE* have the two wings of the "Big Bipartisan Boot-On-Your-Neck Party" offered us this year?


The pseudoconservative faction has anointed the man personally responsible for the most violent assault on the First Amendment since the Alien & Sedition Acts (thereby doing his very, very best to make sure that America never sees a political candidate like Ronald Reagan ever again).

As if that weren't bad enough....

The National Socialist wing is going bugphuck over Barry "The Maglev Mulatto" Obama, a free-floating fascist with about as much real definition as a Rorschach pattern who looks more and more like Jimmy Carter every time he opens his mouth and we get to hear that sonorous echo between his ears.

Are you *SURE* he hasn't got an alcoholic brother named "Billy" wandering around someplace looking for a beer?


Jeez, kids, but this forum should've been hosted by Penn & Teller at the Rio in Las Vegas.

Maybe it still can be. Certainly, a couple of intelligent, articulate, politically libertarian atheists can do a more effective (and entertaining) job of barbecuing these two smarming sonzabitches than any hokey megachurch fakir like Dickie Warren.





=====
"I don't travel in circles where people say, 'I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith.' That's just a long-winded religious way to say, 'Shut up.'"

-- Penn Jillette

Rick Warren
Star...I have the greatest respect for you, read your book....Rick did a good job of letting the public see how each candidate responded to the same questions...I thought it was a great night for McCain...I do understand your concern and agree with you...our political "experts" today are so biased that I enjoyed Rick's stance as moderator...thanks for your writing..jim

where has she been
Why is it all the sudden that Ms Paker wants to ask questions about the church and politics. Where has she been when the right has tried to hijack GOD.

Could it be that Sen. Obama showed he is faithful and showed a knowledge of the Bible and Sen McCain could only joke and answer in policial dogma.

STAR PARKER
HER ARTICLE ON RICK WARREN'S FORUM IS REDICULOUS

lydia
It takes Mr. Obama longer to answer questions because you can't say two opposing things in a short sentence. People would be on to that. Instead, make it a longer 'nuanced' paragraph where you slowly morph the beginning statement into its opposite. That takes longer, and you wind up having really said nothing, but it leaves people having heard the view they like.

I wouldn't mistake smooth and nuanced pandering for humility.
As for being a soldier against evil, I wonder what specifically Mr. Obama has actually done in that regard. Oh, woops, he hasn't actually DONE much of anything. Except talk.

"Disenfranchisement"
Neither candidate should be talking about his religion or his religious beliefs.

We are a pluralistic society whereby MANY people have MANY subjective philosophies by which they guide their personal lives.

Elevating one subjective philosophy over another is inherently ANTI-AMERICAN.

Freedom, choice, pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, our national security and fiscal responsibility should be their focus ONLY.

Religion is subjective and has no place in politics or the public forum. It is personal and private and ought remain as such.


The big question
Did it help neutralize the brand of christianity that Mr. Obama has presumably been following and practicing for the previous 20 years?

I disagree with Ms. Parker on this one.
The initial premise is that Rick Warren had no business doing the forum and I disagree with that. This is still a largely Christian nation in spite of the ACLU's and other organizations attempts to change that.

If we're not getting the answers anywhere else, to whom do you turn to get the answers? Our religious leaders. What we want most is a leader who is "like us." We want to know who we'll be safer with (from persecution and other indignities)when it comes to religious matter.

Now, I didn't watch the program nor have I read the transcripts as yet, so how political was it actually? However, from all accounts I've read, so far, it was a values forum, not all that political. If the American people aren't supposed to be concerned with the values of governmental leaders, why have elections at all? Why not just put it on America Idol or something similar?

Star Parker - lamo Liberal rant
Star - You spew about Moral ambiguity when it comes to Aids and Poverty in the Black community. Well maybe the Black community needs to take a look at it self, instead of a blaming Whitey for all of its problems. The Black community is Liberal in its Morals, how else can you explain these problems. The Black community votes in a majority for Liberal democrats every election, and yet the problems have not been solved yet, whats the problem? Black people need to get their House in order, and voting for the young new GQ Messiah will not fix your problems, probably just make them worse.

I have faith in only One Person!

I dare not make railing accusations, but
I am weary of a pastor trying to unite
the world into one religion. Unless!!!

A background of hatred is not the answer
but one of LOVE is...
By now we should be educated enough to
know a wolf in sheep's clothing!!!

W.Lorraine

Wow Star Parker Forked Tongue
Well, Star has not headed her oen recommendations to not meddle outs0de of her expertise or "form"!
My family and I appreciated the Warren question and answer show! Least those of you who still think you your great great grandparents were snails or some other form relative to Darwin's views, there are those of us, and the majority of our Founding Fathers who did beleive in God. It was and is that Godly principle that allows for alternate thoughts to exist without persecution!
Additionally both of these candidates had the choice to say "No"...somthing our news media and residents seem to have forgotten how to do! They agreed, they responded and it was a valuable reinforcement of what a number of us already knew!

Rick Warren
If pastors and church people don't get somewhat involved in politics then we cede ground to the secularists.

Ah, Star.....
can't agree with you on this one.

It was not the venue that mattered, but the ease with which Rick peeled away the posturing so that we saw the stark difference between the two men.

Obama: Bloviating so as to be able later to claim that is not what he said/meant. Rick had to prompt him to get to the point. Typical code words to disguise distribution of wealth and make his worshipers get that thrill down their legs when he spoke.

McCain: Incisive, informed, strictly to the point. Examples: When does life begin-"at the moment of conception." What have you changed your mind about-"Drill here, drill now!" And so on. He used a razor to slice away the rhetorical fluff and get right down to business.

That is not to say that Rick asked the right things. Like why did Obama sit and listen to Rev Wrong for 20 years? If Michelle is honest, as he claims, did she really mean that comment about not being proud of her country. Like why does McCain want the shamnesty mess for illegals. Like how has the McCain/Feingold finance reform trash helped anyone. And ad nauseum....

I came away with a much better feeling about McCain, but I will still have to hold my nose real tight to vote for him. IMO, right after vigorous prosecution the war on terror, the most important difference between the candidates is that McCain will nominate justices to the SCOTUS that will actually read and follow the Constitution.

300,000,000 Americans, and these two are the best we have?

With the MSM cover for Obama
in place, someone has to ask 'real' questions.



Great Venue
I disagree as well. For me, it was getting away from the sound bytes and allowing the candidates to explain where they are coming from on an even playing field.

I think it showed distinctions. Obama appeals to the postmodern, nuanced crowd while McCain appeals to the "there is truth and evil and this is it" crowd.

I think Warren did us all a service by staying out of the way and letting the candidates speak for themselves. He is a peacemaker. We have had enough nasty fighting.

Best debate
Frankly I think the MSM has a long way to go to measure up to this debate. It really left little room for spin, altho Obama managed to hem and haw out a pretty good spin without saying anything.
I have a much clearer picture of the strengths and weaknesses of each of them. Frankly I find it really hard to believe that a "born again Christian" as Obama claims to be can really stomach the infantacide that goes on in this country dressed up as "choice".

Ms Parker,
You are right in more ways than can be numbered in your short article.

You keep writing and stating things like this and it will make you a target of criticism and people won't feel good about you.

Just Another Influence Peddler
The good pastor has been bit by the celebraty bug. He is one of many younger evangelicals who have led a less "Christ-Centered" church, and a more therapuetic one. Self is all the rage these days. Divisive issues such as homosexuality and abortion have taken a back seat to climate change and the Living Wage. Something similar has also occured in many Catholic parishes, but Evangelicals lack a teachig magisterium, and so it is much easier for individuals like Pastor Warren to lead large numbers of people astray. Warren is of course hedging his bets. But if I'm a betting man, I would say he backs Obama.

The conservative, evangelical led protestantism is undergoing a demographics evolution. Look to see many of these Pastor Warrens in a mega-church near you.

MORAL AMBIGUITY

.....STAR ...

.....If you want moral clarity in the black community then teach black woman (and girls) to keep their knees together until marriage ...

.....If a woman says "yes" the man is not going to say "no" ...so unless a lot of black men are raping unwilling black women ... then the onus for illigitament births and single parent households falls on the women .....COLOSSUS

The Role of the Church
If I remember correctly, the early American Churches where fundamental to the developing ideas of liberty and democracy in the American colonies. The black Church, to its credit, has maintained that tradition to large extent, though often with more bias to one side or another than I would prefer.

To have these candidates speak in Church forum is to revive a missing element of American democracy. I believe Rick and Saddleback did all they could to be fair to both candidates.

Simple Questions W/ no comments
I really don't see any negatives at all. I watched all of the program and Pastor Rick to see if there was any bias and I didn't see it. It indeed was the best I have ever seen and the pastor never preached nor commented except for nods. Seems the only negative comments came from those who either thought their man lost or had a problem with the building where it was held. When Church is mentioned some people go nuts and I hope they do the same when hell is mentioned.

A Couple of things...
One poster referred to Dr. Dobson as a pastor who meddles in politics. The reality is this: he has never been a pastor. He has an earned PHD in psychology and is a specialist in the pediatrics branch of the same.

He fame began with books. He has written many of them and helped millions to raise their children wisely and to deal with thorny family problems.

Focus on the Family has been on my own radar screen since around 1977. I'm not sure what year he founded it, but his videos on family and home were very helpful to my churc family and others here in the Oxford HIlls community back in 1982.

Dr. Dobson began to speak out on public issues because of abortion, which he correctly sees as murder. From there, this faithful husband, successful father, radio host, entrepreneur, and educator began to speak out on moral issues in the public square.

He is not now, nor has he ever been a pastor.


Another thought
Anyone using the name Pharaoh as their posting handle must have issues. He or she seems to be out to correct everyone about everything. I think that there is an inflated ego in play there.


Rick Warren was just shedding "light".
I'm conservative...I believe the Bible has a lot to say about leadership both good and bad.
What better place the expose good and bad than a place where God's word is taught.

Evil must be confronted when it is uncovered.
Good morals are an asset in politics.

So get over it.

In America since 1627.

Good Article
The job of a pastor in a Christian church is to "pastor" or guide them in living a Christlike life, teaching them what He said about right and wrong. The problem with what Rick Warren did is as Star Parker said is "to validate a candidate" whose positions about life and personal freedoms are juxtaposed to those taught by Christ. While there were many in the audience who have looked at both candidates enough to know the validity of their positions on these issues, there are those who are not so educated who need the pastor to point out the truth to them and not just present the candidates with equal approval.

Rick Warren did an exceptional job
I agree that the church should not be involved in Political Debates.
But this was not a political debate, it was a discussion on views, politically, spiritual,
and personally.
If that discussion didn't take place there would not have been a meeting between the two
candidates.
Obama will definitely stay clear of McCain now, knowing that without rehearsal and teleprompters he wouldn't stand a chance.
This is much to do about nothing. A little sour grapes, knowing there candidate was thoroughly truancy by an older and wiser veteran.

Outcome
I suspect if the outcome had been different. In other words if your guy had won, the comments would be praising warren.

The Saturday Night Debate & NBC Bias
Barack Hussein Obama must have been a disappointment in the 'Great Debate' Saturday night.

Andrea Mitchell,one of NBC's biased Obama flackers,made the statement on 'Meet The Press' yesterday,that McCain might have beeg given the questions beforehand.

Never mind if it is not true ,sling it out there and see if it sticks. A typically 'unbiased 'statement.

NBC is so transparent,they don't even pretend to be impartial anymore. Simply free advertisement for the Democrat Party.

Separation of church and state.....
is meant to keep government out of religion; it is not meant to keep religion out of government. The words "separation of church and state" are not even in the Constitution. The words are contained in a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote, which the court used as a basis for their ruling. The court should have looked more in depth at Thomas Jefferson with respect to his views on separation of the two entities in order to make the correct ruling. Thomas Jefferson wrote the letter on a Friday. Two days later, he went to church - in the House of Representatives! Church services were held in the House of Representatives for years and Thomas Jefferson went to the services on a regular basis. In addition, while President, Thomas Jefferson saw no problem at all when church services were also held at the Supreme Court. It is obvious that Jefferson saw no problem with religion in government - but he did see major problems with governemnt interfering in religion. Jefferson's actions, taken together with the words, Congress shall make no law respecting religion (which is in the Constitution), gives a clear indication of the Founders wanting to keep government from dictating anything about religion. I would like to see Thomas Jefferson come back and smack the leaders of Congress and the Supreme Court Justices upside the head, and tell them to get the laws regarding religion back in line with what was intended by the Founders. I would especially like to see Jefferson smack Nancy Fail-osi upside the head and set her straight about showing respect for the United States.

Star you are wrong on Pastor Warren
AT WHAT POINT WILL WE SEE DEMOCRATS STAY OUT OF THE BLACK CHURCHES AND STOP POLITICIZING THAT VENUE> WHEN THAT HAPPENS,YOU WILL BE JUSTIFIED IN TELLING PASTOR WARREN TO STAY OUT OF POLITICS.

why
can't I read any of the comments here???

Obama's Pay Grade
In one sense it is unfortunate that Rick Warren tried to lend Christian legitimacy to Obama's secular left wing candidacy, but the forum was nevertheless damaging to Obama. It was damaging to Obama because he showed an inability to respond to meaningful questions in a direct manner, choosing instead to construct tortured defenses for untenable positions. On the other hand, McCain responded very directly on the same questions, because he was stating his clear beliefs instead of a political platform.

The empty suit is deflating. I am more sure than ever that it will be President McCain in November.

Star, I'm surprised ...
... at your naive review of the Saddleback event. With all due respect, you, as a black person, should be familiar with the abuse of tax exempt black churches by the Democrats to promote Democrat candidates and sway voters.

Stearman has it right when he says that, "Separation of church and state is meant to keep government out of religion; it is not meant to keep religion out of government." Pastor Rick Warren crossed no legal or ethical line in the format or moderation of the event.

Rather, he showed the biased media coverage for what it is with his fair format. Pastor Warren showed the TV network "debates" for the moderator performances that they are. And he, showed us the lack of information in the candidates TV advertising.

I thank Pastor Warren for his attempt to elevate political campaigns, and I am disappointed with Ms. Parker's criticism.

Right on Star
Once again you have hit it out of the ball park. When you have a candidate who says his positions on when life begins are "above his pay grade" are we legitimizing that kind of moral ambiguity (at best) in a leader? In a society? How can we expect someone to lead us on public policy when the strongest position he will take on anything is no position at all.

Instead of teach...
I understand the temptation Pastor Warren would have to do this. I however agree wholeheartedly with Star Parker's comments. The sad reality is that the church, very much like the public square is far TOO filled with emotion and far less with reasoned thought. Many times I hear people talk about issues in a total vacuum. "Oh, poverty and AIDS aren't they awful- those people need more money or they need more compassionate leadership etc. etc." President Bush has put more into AIDS than any President- how many know that? We don't inform folks of what the facts are and then we wonder why they are so flighty and indignant to the conservative who is labeled a big meany! Just like the prelude to war- how many have actually read the State of the Union of 2003 or read books that explain the process leading up to that war- UN resolutions broken x 17--- regime change urged by Clinton, the violations of the no-fly zones, IAEA viloations etc etc. Yet, people spout stuff without researching anything (you could still disagree with the war, but be far better informed!). Warren to me is an unwitting extension of the post modern mindset that states "what is truth?" even though he preaches truth a lot. What I mean is that he is doing the bidding of the post modernists when he stages an event like this and tacitly gives the assumption these are two very similar men. Even the questions are NOT substantive enough to have people have an understanding of the depth of the issues discussed. He should have left this stuff alone and told his flock to do their own extensive research (both left and right information sites and articles and books), read and understand their Bibles and make their own decisions.

Star Parker's opinion is
Irrelevant. The meeting could have been held in an out-house and moderated by Larry Flynt, as long as the goal was the same (although, I expect it would have been much more crowded and loaded with cursing). That goal being to ask the candidates, who want to lead this great nation, some very direct questions that give us some insight into their thoughts and purpose. The forum provided for a fair and honest response, instead of the typical scripted talking-head moments that these two are accustomed to. Whether your pick 'won' or 'lost' is up to you, the voting individual. Mr. Warren did a great job of hosting and delivering the questions; the format was excellent. It gave us all a chance to see what is brewing in each of these men's souls. Unfortunately, BOTH took opportunities to push their platform and revert to their day-old rhetoric. But, in the end, I believe the goal was achieved: We know each of these men just a bit better now. Otherwise, we are only treated to the usual, scripted, speech-writer garbage (from BOTH) that is pushed on ALL the networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc.).
If you love Obama, you still love Obama. If you love McCain, you still love McCain. If you were not sure which to choose, you might have come away from the broadcast with an answer. And, if it takes someone like Mr. Warren (who can be polite & impartial/un-biased), then so be it.

Those who disagree with Star
You may be correct that Rick Warren did a good job here but, the larger question remains. Is it a good idea for a pastor or church to get too involved in politics? For many, I think Warren included, the church is politics, it is about getting more and more people to join your sect, denomination, party, etc. It involves compromise to achieve plurality. I believe Star's point is a good one. The message is the message. Scripture is scripture. It cannot and should not be watered down to please the masses. That is the danger of politicizing religion.

Neutrality???
The good reverend was all about selling more books, advertisement for his church and as for neutral, when it's all about money and power he was just doing what the tv evangelists do.
To not question a ridiculous statement we need humility to fight evil, that really levels the playing field. "Above my pay grade" a totally stupid statement that was not even questioned by the good (?) Reverend. Yet the empty suit once again uttered empty words between the ahhs and umbs. Dumbocrats still think the new messiah will save them. I would be amused if it weren't so serious to think a Marxist could be elected by intellectually challenged and indoctinated graduateS of liberal academia. GOD HELP US!

Michael in IL, finally!
For those of you who are not students of the Bible, now is the time to do a little research.

Pastor: shepherd, leader and teacher of children of God.
Church: God's children.
Building, tent and/or place together: for God's people to worship. In my day "Church" was called God's house of worship!
And for those that are not familiar with God's Word, He hates religion!

And thank you Michael (reply #36), for telling it like it is

What religion do you think should
have a voice in this country?

I don't see how if an atheist came to our church and told us why he was an atheist that some how this would justify atheism. I would consider it an education on how to understand and therefore reach atheists.

Our ideas are better than theirs.
We have nothing to fear.
We become citizens of God's kingdom when we believe, but we are also citizens of the United States of America and we hold some power in our hands. I am responsible before God for the candidate I choose.

Faith plays the largest part in political choices. Historically the Christian Church has played a major role in American politics. Politics cannot be separated from religion. A person who is unwilling to speak about his faith in the public sector is of weak faith and character. It has nothing to do with good taste. When George W. told us about his faith it wasn't to force his faith upon you but to let you know from where he personally was coming while making decisions.
As the Christian voice weakens in the public sector, our country is lost to humanism and further degradation. Humanists are not shy about forcing their faith upon us. Look at most college professors and the slanted media. Unlike college professors and public school teachers and global warmers everywhere,
Christians know faith cannot be forced upon a person but is a gift from God when and if the Truth is heard.

Star Parker's Column on Pastor Warren's
Basically, her remarks are right on-----but in the absence of a fair media, there is little information available to help voters decide between candidates today---the internet has the problem of verifiable truthfulness, so it doesn't help much----whether this was the motivation for Warren's action, I don't know, but I won't fault him for making the effort. BTW, I've often why Parker's and other similar criticisms are not leveled at Jackson or Sharpton when they openly take political positions??

scooternyc is a good case in point
"Religion is subjective and has no place in politics or the public forum. It is personal and private and ought remain as such." This person could be speaking for Star Parker.

This is precisely the reason America is in the mess it's in. The anti-God crowd, who set out to get control of everything in our country from day-care to the Supreme Court, convinced Christians they shouldn't dirty their pretty hands with things political. So we sat back and spent all our energy at church bake sales and the Godless took over.

Is this really what God wants from us? Doesn't the Bible say "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is in Heaven". God's will, will not be done on earth when God's people let the Godless run things.




Next a Mosque?
What if this forum had been held in a Mosque?

Although it was informative, I don't think the church, any church, should host such a forum.

Warren Did a Better Job Interviewing
I think Warren did a better job at getting info from the candidates than anything I've seen from the news media so far this year. I find it ironic that it takes a pastor to do the media's job--and do it better. A pastor can moderate interviews one day and preach the Word on another. Is it logically necessary to thing that one effort cancels the other?

I enjoyed the evening.



Jackson and Sharpton -
the REV. in front of their names are meaningless and just serve to add to the ambiguity that Parker is speaking of.

Atheist Propaganda
“We have institutions for civic and political forums.”

Only a complete fascist would write something like that.

“What exactly is going on in America when our obsession is to cleanse every inch of public space from religion, yet somehow we think it is appropriate to bring a presidential political forum into church?”

That may be your agenda, but it is not the agenda of 95%+ of Americans. Karl Marx’s agenda was to “Cleanse” society of religion. Since you are obviously a secular atheist I don’t expect you to understand, just please stop vilifying the will of the American people with this propaganda. Your religious cleansing doctrine is unconstitutional under the freedom of religion, and as long as the federal government does not establish a “state” religion it is not in violation.

“We need political leaders that are more moral, not church leaders that are more political.”

Wrong again, wow—totally wrong. Yet somehow I bet that you are cool with Labor Unions involvement with politics.

Rick Warren Lied!!!
Rick Warren lied to millions of people on national t.v. He said John McCain was in a "cone of silence" when actually John was in a limo in a ride to the event.

Warren even admitted it on CNN Sunday morning.

Warren was right on
What better way to highlight the differences between a relativist (Obama) and a realist (McCain), than to ask them the same questions.

Cures for moral ambiguity…

Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, “I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the LORD.” And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it…Then Shaphan the scribe showed the king, saying, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read it before the king. Now it happened, when the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, that he tore his clothes.

Then the king commanded Hilkiah the priest…saying, “Go, inquire of the LORD for me, for the people and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found; for great is the wrath of the LORD that is aroused against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us…” [2 Kings 22]

Unique Forum and Great Questions
I certainly have no objections to the venue. Nor do I object the the interviewer's having been a pastor. In fact, I applaud Rick Warren for taking the risk of alienating many of his fellow evangelicals in not honoring their strong opposition his proposed "debate."

The questions were great. The format was unique. The outcome was clear: there could be no sharper contrast between the candidates! McCain was great; Obama nuanced in all of his answers and unintelligible in many!


There goes that race card!!!!!
Its funny how conservatives always cry race card!! I thought this was a good article until the poverty issue. Are there not white people who live in poverty??? In truth there are more non black people living in poverty than blacks so dont go dissing blacks!!! Sure they suffer from there own ignorance sometimes. But they are still recovering from the effects of racism and slavery. But how bout you offer more reason for poverty for blacks other than just their moral compass, cause I think you would agree there are great christian blacks who still live in poverty!!!!

More on Warren
"Mr. Warren, the pastor of Saddleback, had assured the audience while he was interviewing Mr. Obama that "we have safely placed Senator McCain in a cone of silence" and that he could not hear the questions... Interviewed Sunday on CNN, Mr. Warren seemed surprised to learn that Mr. McCain was not in the building during the Obama interview"

Warren and Politics
Good article by Star but is this the way it originally was? No and I'm not a big fan of Warren either! I'm going back to our founders, most were pastors themselves and all believed that the Bible (God) should be the bases for our nations foundation! We need to wake up before she's gone forever.

Scooter NYC
We need to know where the candidates are coming from if we do not know this how do we decide? Politics are affected by world-view/religion/philosopy we cannot separate how we think from how we vote.
You cannot believe that there is such thing as neutrality.

poverty a moral issue???
now i will grant that a small percentage of the poor (black, white and hispanic) are immorally not upholding their responsibility to God, country and family.

but if we take into account that 60% of the poor are under the age of 18, it seems absurd to call it a moral failing on their part.

poverty is a societal problem (with the exceptions i have noted) and needs to be addressed by Christian folk and the government of the richest country in the history of the world.

Reporter Star Parker
It seem you don't know the roll of every pastor in his congregation and his Civil Rights as a citizen, provided by the Constitution of the U.S.A. Your problem is that you listen to the leftist interpretation of the Constitution, but he is supposed to let his members and visitors to know what is right or wrong with each and every candidate to be elected to government positions, since it will afect everyone in the country. Pastor Warren did what was best for everyone to find out which candidate is best one to be commander in chief of our country by exposing them to the forum. No wonder people are very sckeptical of the Media and their leftist views.

Great Article
"We need political leaders that are more moral, not church leaders that are more political."

Well put, Star. You hit the nail on the head. Thanks for the article.

jmitch
The word is "about", not "bout." And enough of "dissing."

Three Little Words
Ebeneezer Baptist Church; where have politics been and where do they belong? Churches as much as anywhere else.

I enjoyed the forum...
Pastor Warren did an excellent job. He obviously likes both men and I believe he did a good job staying within his questions. The question of whether or not he should have held this forum is rather presumptuous. Why should he have any less right to host a forum than any other citizen of the United States? It was a freely attended forum...I don't believe he coerced or forced anyone to attend, and that includes the two candidates. He asked questions I particularly wanted to hear answers to, as a citizen and as a Christian. Those social issues are not ones you will hear discussed in the three tightly controlled "debates" which will occur. I liked the format and I liked the way Pastor Warren presented the questions.

Ambiguity?
When asked the question, when does life begin, Mr. Obama was NOT ambiguous...he doesn't have an answer to THAT one! Wooooo there fella, that's a stumper.

McCain was not ambiguous either: At conception. No hesitation, came right out with it.

Ms. Parker basically wants them "Christians" to stay in Church and keep their mouths shut...unless they are praying for good solid secular folk to be in government.

Ms. Parker is not ambiguous either: Keep religion out of politics even if that means the inevitable destruction of millions of lives ala the Marxist states.

Star Parker is way off base!
I totally disagree with the premises of this article. This secular society we live in has become so brainwashed with political correctness and which/what forums are appropriate for debate, we are focusing on the wrong things.
Barack Obama and John McCain are their party's nominees for President of the U.S. It is important to the American people to know as much as possible about each of them, who they are, what is imprtant to them and what they believe, etc. so we can make as informed a choice as possible when we vote in November.
To concern ourselves about whether Rick Warren is qualified to ask the questions or whether interviewing them in a church (of all places) is just plain stupid.
This article is an insult to common sense.

At that time, it was just a building

Lolo1 Location: CA
Reply # 11
Date: Aug 17, 2008 - 7:34 PM EST
I, too
wonder if our churches are becoming too political.
-----
How about Jackson or Sharpton and many candidates over the past century who spoke in a church.

Speaking about politics in a church does not make it a Congress, praying in Congress does not make it a church.

I have attended Billy Graham meetings in the Cotton bowl in Dallas, and the Coliseum in Los Angeles, and in neither case did anyone score a touchdown.

There were hundreds and thousands of victories for Christ, but none for a ball game, just because he was speaking in a ball field.


Jackson misused a church building

It was interesting to listen to the “non-biased” reporters on MSNBC and CNN, immediately after the Warren meeting. They had not yet been told what to say, so all were complementary about McCain, and not OBamBam.

Then I held my nose and read comments on HuffPro. What a bunch of Crap.

And by the way, for those of you visiting here from HuffPro, McCain didn’t need to hear what OBamBam said in his part of the program, to know what subjects were to be discussed.

Warren gave them both a list of subjects, but not a list of questions.

HuffPro people say that since McCain asked about the Supreme Court question, he had heard the earlier hour. Not true, Warren gave them both a list of subjects, and the Supreme Court was on the list.

========

I remember years ago when Jackson was so-called running for President, when he begged and harangued the people in a small church in the mid-west to give more and more money.

Then he jumped into a private plane, and when he arrived in DC, he checked into a hotel that charged him, twice as much as he had collected in that church.

Now that is a misuse of a church and its audience.


Saddleback
I think that this was a perfect way for the public to see and hear both candidates answer some really good moral questions. Pastor Warren was probably the only who could get both candidates to appear on the same show. Having the candidates asnswe the same questions was brilliant.

Senator Mc Cain was the shining star --- he proved that he is the right --- the only choice for the USA. Senator Obama, as usual, lied and it showed.

There is a time and place ...
There is a time and place for everything under God's heaven; and a house of God is not the place for politics. The disgusting democrats have been using black churches far years to spread their lies and hatred.

While I'm glad I heard Obamba bombed and McCain did well, this forum should have been held anywhere outside the alter of God. I'm reminded of Jesus and the money-changer's in the temple.

Obama/McCain/Pastor Rick Warren
Did the Author (of this blog) even watch or listen to the broadcast?
Pastor Warren asked questions that no one else is going to ask. Examples: about worst Moral mistake and about Abortion. About Chief Justices. I thought the responses were very instructive. It told me a lot more about each of the candidates. This is helpful, regardless of where the interviews were held.

Rick Warren Forum
This was a forum that was needed. It was not in the church itself but in the gathering area I believe. For too long the media has given hundred times the coverage of barrak Husein obomba excessive covers where he plays roles and his real self is not shown. He is a Manchurin candidate and a very dangerous man of the world. One of his statement in Berlin was I am a citizen of the world. obomba replaced our Great Country's flag with his own sickening symbol. It is time that pastors take back the pulpit and not let the mindset that wants to destroy this country continue to tell pastors what they can and cannot do. Note: This forum was not on a Sunday!!! There are too many ignorant voters that vote because of the b.s. they are feed from the corrupt media that has been captured by the socialists and communists. There is only basis by reporter that have their agenda set because they cannot think for themselves. It appears you have fallen into this class.

Amen!
Personal faith should have no place in the realm of politics. I believe in the value of personal morality and responsibility. I do not believe in government assuming responsibility for individual morality.

From my understanding, it is exactly this issue of forcing morality down our throats that was one of the key issues in the story of Satan's expulsion from heaven ("I will redeem ALL men (ie- by force), only let the glory be mine.") Inasmuch as a person's actions or beliefs do not interfere with the rights and freedoms of others, they should not even be discussed in the context of politics.

I understand that there are moral issues that churches would like to see pushed into the political realm, but in most cases the better answer would be to put the issue back where it belongs - in the realm of personal responsibility. In other words, don't impose your values on the rest of the world because you wouldn't want the rest of the world's values imposed on you.

Rick Warren
If you don't like what a pastor has to say, you don't have to go to his church. That's called freedom in the USA. Thousands of people want to hear what Rick warren has to say and thoudands of people wanted him to interview the candidates--wether you like it or not. That's called freedom. I want to hear what many people have to say, including pastors--wether or not it's political--and even you. But, I think for myself, no matter what you or anyone else has to say. Stop insulting the American public, as if we follow blindly...and stop trying to sensor what pastors say...that's why we left Europe and fought for our right to choose who we want to listen to.

Star Fades from Brightness Again
Reading Star Parker's tortured meanderings trying to blemish the most excellent Civil Forum on the Presidency moderated by Rick Warren was just short of hilarious. The venue and format gave the candidates opportunity to show themselves as they chose to do.

Star is miffed because her candidate did not come off well in comparison to the other candidate when responding to essentially the same questions.

While stating correctly sales of Warren's book, The Purpose Driven Life, at 35,000, Star did not acknowledge that Obama knocked 10,000 off the actual sales figure and had to mention his books. Likewise, while blathering about the need for more moral politicians, Star did not note the distinction between the core beliefs and values of the candidates as revealed in answer to the question on the beginning of life.

Not only did Obama say clearly the issue was "above [his] pay grade" compared to McCain's prompt, decisive response be it right or wrong by any means of assessment, Obama once again spoke a glaring untruth. Someone needs to tell Obama abortion rates in the U.S. are down in recent years and there are not 57 states in the United States.

The last time I checked Christians, evangelicals and other faith believers are allowed to vote and otherwise participate in affairs of the nation. Nothing in the Bible, including the teachings of Jesus, advocates faith believers excluding themselves from or being excluded from political or other participation in matters affecting them so profoundly. Indeed Jesus so upset the authorities of His time that they had the political rulers torture and hang Him on a cross until He was dead, only to be resurrected much to their chagrin.

Finally, for Star to be consistent in her views which I doubt she is, she must abhor the political views espoused by Jeremiah Wright in the Trinity United Church of Christ that Obama only reluctantly denounced for political expediency.

pros/cons
For all of the pros' and cons on this subject there certainly is a lot of feeling on the matter both good and bad.
AS one who missed the interview as such I have to rely on what others have said. The total response has been of interest to read. Though I have to say I didn't read each one I have scanned a few to get the gist of things.

For the attempt that was made I am glad that he did what he did even though I missed seeing and hearing it . I know that many have supported the Scriptures and for that I am so glad to know that I am not alone in doing that myself.
God will only honor those who HONOR HIM. For the one who will humble themselves and seek God in all earnestness and not their own glory, God will let them know Who He is. For the one who seeks their own agenda and not listen to GOD, then he is certainly in trouble.

Realize who Created you ! Your parents were only His instruments, but He was the one who orchestrated the combination of genes to go together and the One who gave you your parents and combination of personality.

So these two cannidates are no surprise to GOD. It is up to us to vote our conscience, to seek the right one to lead us as a country. May God give His blessing to the one who will honor HIM.

RICK WARREN AND THE APOSTATE CHURCH

Rick Warren entered the realm of politics a long time ago with his membership in the CFR or Council on Foreign Relations... Warren was in good company on saturday as he questioned his fellow Globalists about their views on various subjects. Afterall, Obama and McCain are both members of the Globalist CFR or Council on Foreign Relations.

The Council on Foreign Relations has always promoted Globalism and realizes it cannot accomplish this goal as soon as it would like to so it has come up with something called Regionalism....i.e. Nafta and the imminent merger of Canada, Mexico and the United States...similar to the E.U....they envision a North America with no boundaries or passports..open to everyone who lives there. The have even devised a currency for this merger called the Amero.

Rick Warren is touted as the next Billy Graham with his Apostate Church of New Age anecdotes. He is given a free ride by the Globalists who control the major networks and by reporters who are also CFR members and a integral part of the Liberal Eastern Rockefeller Establishment. He has recently hosted a forum on Globalism and Aids...and promotes using hard earned blood money from the American Taxpayers to accomplish his goals. Mr Gerson and his CFR duties have lead him too..to Washington..for the Grand Shakedown of our Senators to allocate American Taxpayer money for CFR Pet Globalist Projects that in my view are unconstitutional. Gerson, Warren and the Two presumptive Globalist candidates are cut from the same CFR Globalist block. Either way you have a Globalist in the White House which is in sync with CFR Globalist strategies of destroying American Sovereignty.

Clarification
I want to make it clear that I have nothing against a pastor wanting to interview candidates, and I certainly don't deny his right to say what he wants. I just think that it was stupid of both candidates to accept the invitation. Religious beliefs may be part of who a person is and have an ind