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Monday, August 25, 2008
Paul Greenberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
No Sale: General Obama and the Few
by Paul Greenberg
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No wonder Barack Obama got such a tepid reception this week at the Veterans of Foreign Wars' convention. The better the United States does in Iraq, the worse he looks.

If only his strategy had been followed. His presidential campaign would be sitting pretty at this point instead of struggling to maintain a once comfortable lead. Iraq would still be Issue No. 1 instead of the economy, and he would be making the most of it - instead of events in Iraq working to his political disadvantage.

It's been a long McGovern summer for Sen. Obama as his lead in the polls has dwindled down, and he's been obliged to wiggle out of - excuse me, refine - one position after another. (Some of us are old enough to remember when he was still a left-winger instead of a waffler.) That he's quite good at shifting his political stances can't quite disguise the fact that he's doing it. And it's costing him his credibility. Especially when he insists that he's not changing his stance at all, not at all, just giving it some, uh, needed nuance.

Without the Surge in Iraq that, lest we forget, Sen. Obama strongly opposed, and whose success he still tries to deny, Iraq would be in chaos, America's enemies crowing, terrorism revitalized, our allies demoralized and the rest of the Middle East quaking.

But the growing prospect of victory in Iraq has tended to remove it as a political issue. Nothing unites like success. The brigades devoted to the Surge are now out of Iraq, the Iraqis are moving into political confrontations rather than civil war, and victory is in sight, not that Barack Obama is prepared to accept it.

There are few things sadder in this presidential campaign than General Obama's trying to depict himself as some kind of realist. When he does, as before the real vets this week, even his legendary smoothness deserts him.

Sen. Obama bridles when it's pointed out that, not to put too fine a point on it, he favored failure in Iraq. If this president and commander-in-chief hadn't finally followed John McCain's advice, changed secretaries of defense, and replaced his incompetent generals with an effective commander, America would now be confronting another Vietnam-era defeat - this one in the heart of the Middle East.

All of which might have been good for the Democratic presidential candidate's chances in this election, but it would have been disastrous for America and freedom everywhere.

At that infamous congressional hearing when the Surge was still largely an abstraction rather than an accomplished fact, Sen. Obama's co-star at next week's Democratic convention, Hillary Clinton, said it would take a "willing suspension of disbelief" to back General David Petraeus' new strategy. Which may have been the most memorable misjudgment in contemporary military history. And the junior senator from Illinois seconded her motion.

Both senators grabbed the headlines when they were predicting the Surge would never work. Now they're awfully quiet on the subject of General Petraeus and his strategy. Maybe they have some shame after all.

Has either of these armchair generals ever recognized how wrong they were on Iraq? Has either ever apologized to the real general whose leadership has matched the valor and skill of his troops in Iraq? Or praised George W. Bush for having the flexibility to adopt a whole new and better strategy in Iraq? If so, I haven't noticed.

Instead, Barack Obama pretends that it's his patriotism that's being criticized, not his military judgment, which has been more political than military. What a stark contrast with Sen. McCain's record. John McCain was criticizing Donald Rumsfeld in the strongest terms years ago, while Barack Obama was still nuancing like mad. As is his way.

Happily, Mr. Rumsfeld is no longer secretary of defense and we're winning in Iraq. But it was John McCain who stuck to the goal of victory through the darkest days in Iraq and never wavered, while Barack Obama was ready to pull out and hope for the best, which in reality would have been the worst possible outcome.

At one point, Sen. Obama said his policy toward Iraq was much the same as the president's, but that of course was early on, when we appeared to have won a short war.

Never fear: Barack Obama is not about to desert his country's cause in its hour of victory. It is only in times of crisis - when the enemy is advancing and America is divided and defeat seems inevitable, in those times that try men's souls, to borrow a line from Thomas Paine - that Barack Obama fails the test as president - and as commander-in chief.

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Mr. Greenberg
"Have either of these two armchair generals ever recognized how wrong they were on Iraq?"
"...apologized to the real general...?" "Or praised George W. Bush...?"

Are you kidding me? These guys are nuancing with the stars! It should be the next big ABC craze. They've been trying to posture their ability to pull defeat from victory for their lefty leaders and still be C-in-C worthy. Of course they can't for us in the know. But the MSM will put the best spin on this investment in defeat ever seen on national TV. And don't forget armchair colonels Reid, Pelosi, Biden, Kennedy, Durbin, Murtha, and the rest of the dim clowns trying to lose to the terrorists.

Marketing tips
Maybe Saint Obambi needs to "report for duty" like J(ane) F(onda) Kerry and take a photo op in a tank like Michael Dukakis to establish his credentials for Commander-in-Chief. As experienced and outstanding as we are told he is, he just needs to polish his presentation a little to convince the doubters to vote for him.

nice try
1. Response not tepid from the VFW, and Obama rated MUCH higher by Vets groups than McCain. So maybe this item should appear in the "fiction" section of this blog?
2. Posting and comments already bear the signs of RNC talking points--"nuancing with the stars"...I expect I'll see that on half a dozen blogs by morning.

We're on to you. And no one is fooled.
The genuinely shallow shouldnt call the smart guy dumb--that will come back to bite you. And the "media is my base" candidate will have to withdraw the "celebrity" card very soon.

Obama would be a disaster
As Commander in Chief. He's been a disaster as a Senator and unless he has teleprompters to read his remarks from, he's a disaster as a public speaker.

No wonder our enemies want him to be our president so badly. They're laughing their heads off at this fool behind the scenes, and some even publicly.

There is NO WAY this idiot should ever get anywhere near the oval office, except as a visitor.

indyconantidim
Thank you . . . I couldn't have said it any better.

THE BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA PLAN

In the beginning was the Obama Plan (Change We Can Believe In!). And then came the Obama Assumptions. And the Obama Assumptions were without form. And the Obama Plan was without substance. And darkness fell upon the face of the Voters.

And the Voters spoke amongst themselves, saying, “This is a crock of you know what, and it stinks.” And the Voters went unto their Party Supervisors and said, “It is a pail of dung, and we can't live with the smell.”

And the Party Supervisors went unto their Party Managers, saying, “It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it.” And the Party Managers went unto their Party Directors, saying, “It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its’ strength.”

And the Party Directors spoke amongst themselves, saying to one another, “It contains that which aids Plant growth; and it is very strong.” And the Party Directors went to Joe Biden, saying unto him, “It promotes growth and it is very powerful.”

And Joe Biden went to Barack Obama, saying unto him, “This new Plan will actively promote the growth and vigor of the Nation with very powerful effects.”

And Barack Obama looked upon the Plan and saw that it was good.

And the Plan became Policy.

And that, my friends, is how; “you know what” happens.



Marine's Dad
"There is NO WAY this idiot should ever get anywhere near the oval office, except as a visitor."

First, thank your son/daughter for their service. I pray for our troops every night.

Regarding Obama getting near the Oval Office . . . he shouldn't even be allowed to visit.

Nice revisionism Jude
But it doesn't wash. M brother was at the convention and had to sit thru the OBORME speech in an auditorium that was all but empty.
This is as compared with the almost full auditorium for Senator McCain.

Oborme got polite applause compared to standing O's for McCain. Now tell me again that Obama got a "much better rating" than McCain.

Pat, Thank you and you're welcome
On behalf of my son.

But on keeping Obama completely away from the Oval Office, as nice as it sounds, I don't think that would work since he's at least in title, if not actual time spent there earning his pay, a member of the U.S. Senate.

Jude of NY: Where do you get your...
Information? I am a member of both the VFW and American Legion and I don't know of any members of either post that claim that they are voting for Obama. They know that he will decimate our military, just as Clinton did, at a time when we need a strong defense more than ever.
No...We're on to YOU. The propaganda and disinfromation of the Obama campaign continues.
This man cut his teeth as a radical/activist whom denegrated America and is not much different than the race baiters Al "Not too" Sharpton and Jesse "shake-em down" Jackson".
He is just a master of deception when it comes to presenting a persona that is so far removed from the real Obama. "there will be wolves in sheeps clothing"...

Bravo, Neal!
That, my friend, was very clever! And, as Rush would say, the best parody holds elements of truth within its tale. You get a "10" on my scorecard.

As to the article, the lefties just find it so difficult to acknowledge any success or correct policy advanced by the right. No wonder the public finds politics distasteful in the current climate of rancor.

Hey jude
Take a sad song and make it better. This week is going to be fun. These loser clowns and their cronies with the mind numb lemmings at the ready. Get your spot at the front so that you're first off the cliff.

What's good for America
I've long held the position that what is good for America is bad for the Democrats. Sad that the Democratic Party has positioned itself such. Need a list? Energy, Iraq, Taxes, Entitlements, Budget, Big Business, Small Business,foreign policy, ...

Texas
My husband has retired after 26 years in the navy and now serves those who served by volunteering as an honor guard at Ft. Sam Cemetery. All of the retired military men who volunter there exchange information constantly and all feel that the Demorats "Chosen One" is a dangerous threat to this country in many ways. I agree with them, so why can't these bleeding heart liberals see it. Are their heads so deep in the sand or so far up their butts they can't see, or are they wanting Democrats to be in power so badly that they are willing to put our country at risk?

The article was right on and as one great Repulician said, " You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time".

Great article
spot on! I'm sure the MSM will run cover for Obama as best they can.

This should be a fun election season, with Obama squirming while he attempts to hide his true nature and beliefs. While he flip-flops on every issue as he further defines himself. He is both for and against everything depending on what group he's talking too.

Biden will come across as the new Howard Dean.

McCain should pick Hutchinson as his VP. He'll pull in all the female Clinton voters if he does.

Either way, this should be a fun election and McCain should win in a landslide. If he doesn't, this country is in serious trouble.

Reba, Thank you husband for his service
for me. The elitists in media, academia and civil service are either thoroughly propagandized by the MSM spin against George Bush or by poor education, revisionist history against America and its Judeo-Christian heritage. Add to that the Vietnam revisited of the 04 Kerry campaign, Watergate revisted led by Schumer/Wilson/Plame boondoggle and Fatman Moore's movies/Oblaba impact on youth and you have the modern Democrat party I refer to as the dims. Even though Oblaba and Pelosi will invoke Bible verse from time to time its all lip service to con the middle class Christians.

If this bunch gets total control our military will be stripped, our paychecks will disappear for more taxes and higher costs passed through for green initiatives(higher gas /utility prices)and the judges they install will make representative government moot. If you've ever called on God to protect this country we better make sure we do it now more than ever.

reality check.
I am not here to argue Obama would make a good commander in chief.

He probably wouldn't.

Obama may be bad, but that sure as hell doesn't excuse Bush.

My problem with Obama has more to do with his desire to tax Americans to deal with global poverty(altho Bush approving 80 billion in American tax dollars to deal with aids in Africa is almost as stupid).

Plus, I don't like Obama's mindset in implying "peoples of the world may not be okay with choices we Americans make"...purchase of suvs, and temperature settings on our thermostats.

I don't care what peoples of the world may think when it comes to purchases I make.

And for Obama to think it should matter is simply incredible.

But for hopeless and clueless defenders of the administration on Iraq, let me ask you one question:

If it was so successful, why isn't anyone calling for more "Iraqs"?

If Iraq was such a "success", let McCain run on the platform of involving our nation in more "Iraqs" in the future.

Demand we "liberate" more Muslim nations!

I mean, if it was such a great success, and all.

There are number of fine candidates out there.

Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, just to name a few.

Spin it anyway you wish. Claim the "surge" has meant Americans now approve of Iraq.

But the fact is Iraq was a historic blunder, especially given the cost.

And people know it.

As part of Bush's "war on terror", we deposed a secular Sunni thug whom Bin Laden viewed as an corrupt infidel(which is EXACTLY how he views the Saudi government), and brought about an Iraqi Shia government that is increasingly aligning with Iran.


The Republicans are rarely right
but the Democrats just never seem to get it right at all. Only a fool truss the judgement of people like Pelosi, Biden, Kennedy, Byrd and other luminaries on theleft, for the simple reason they are always wrong. These people continue to insist that issuing firearms carry permits to vetted honest citizens will result in blood running in the streets. Yet EVERY instance where these laws have been passed, crime rates dropped. Their pronouncements on Iraq have been universlly shown to be erroneous. Their proposed big govt solutions just haven't worked. Statements like We can't drill our way out of this, and Inflate your tires are lunacy on the face of them. Yet identity politics, pocketbook politics, free lunch politics trumps reality and results for half the population. TINSTAAFL. Figure it out, voters.

lowwer taxes
you conservative get a snit fit whenever the word taxes if mentioned. ok but for you and yours to constantly harp on lowerng taxes without giving ua any idea of what would be afedted by thal lowering is deceitful. from now on if you really want to peforn a service, tell us what programs would be cut and their cost. just cutting the budget is stupid. cutting specific programs becausethey are wasteful is much more effective. also, dontdont give the old stand by. youll cut waste in government spending , cut subsideies to corporations, . i checked and almost every poitician republican or democrat for presiden or dog car=tcher, who has run fo ofice since 1865 has made the same promise.almost always to no avail.

General Who?
Mr. Greenberg accurately paints Senator Obama as supporting losing in Iraq but at least one thing should be corrected in this article. Barack is not a General and calling him one is insulting to all the good Generals and military men who strive to become one. BO is a divider, a loser and a waffler of global enormity. If anyone stops and looks at his position in this one area alone, you could not vote for this candidate. He is not prepared to be President and is not prepared to be Commander in Chief in times like this. Since BO still clings to the hope we will lose, we need to make his wish apply in his own life and elect his opponent. Then we will have sore loser Obama-Biden for future bumper stickers.

Plus when we deny BO the presidency, we need to vote the liberal socialists (sometimes called Democ"rats") into retirement. The next President deserves better than what these Democ"rats" of the Pee-lose-i party have been and are. Their 9% or less approval rating shows what we think of them all and yet they have the nerve to take a five week paid vacation and pass no meaningful legislation to resolve anything.

Say no to BO and say Goodbye to Bi-den.

Jude
Marine's Dad was there. Whom should i believe?

Obama is an inner city black activist politician in the tradition of Marion Barry, Alcee Hastings, Maxine Waters, Kwame Kilpatrick, and New Orleans Nagin. Maybe he'll break the mold, but i see no sign of it. If he gets elected, its Detroit coast to coast.

Spin Obama
How do you spin not visiting the wounded troops, but you can talk with the Germans who do not like us, and wanting to be Commander and Chief of the armed forces.

You cannot, it is what it is.

Hindsight is 20/20
"...If this president and commander-in-chief hadn't finally followed John McCain's advice, changed secretaries of defense, and replaced his incompetent generals with an effective commander..."

This comment, in an otherwise insightful and humorously written column, is unfair to Bush, Rumsfeld, and the generals. Nobody is born knowing how to run a war. Remember Washington's and Lincoln's learning curve.

Obama would be worse than a Jimmy Carter
So far Obama has managed to insert his foot into his mouth at every speaking engagement he has attended. Unless the People listening are complete Idiots this must be obvious to all. Obama fancies himself as some sort of Trail blazer, but the poor misguided Booby just does not have a clue. The MSM and his Supporters have built him up and he will come crashing down and it wont be pretty. The poor Boy has been propped up by White Liberal America for his entire life, coddled and told he was special and he believes it. When he fails, lets see how many of those Supporters and MSM people are there for him then.

Surgical operation
Bush, Rumsfeld and "the generals" carried out an astounding operation which struck terror into the hearts of all aggressor nations in the world, and especially those of the Middle East who are still wondering if they are next. So Bush and Rumsfeld weren't perfectly prepared for the insurgency. Who was and who could have been? Useless speculation.

Jude "dude"
I would like to know what you are smoking...it surely messes you up big time.

Driving on the Left!
If Obama has been in charge of the military during the American Revolution, we'd still be driving on the left side of the road. Hum! I guess he and his Democratic party would like being on the left! Ha!

Listening to the Generals
In an interview last week, when asked about the success of the 'surge' Petreaus said 'It's not durable yet, it's not self-sustaining.'

The point here is that what we are seeing in Iraq now amounts to a series of ceasefires. What we are not seeing is the legal and governmental fundamentals that will indeed lead to a durable security.

Until the fundamentals are in place the surge cannot be rated a success.

Kirkuk and the provincial elections are a prime example of how tenuous the present gains are.

Obama is Wrong
on every issue important to this country.
There is no VP pick that could add to Obama's resume or subtract/distract from his inexperience.
He is who he is and he is not the person we need in the office of POTUS.
History will confirm the importance and value of the determination and foresight of GWB.

Hey Jude
I know of no military guy past or present who supports this clown, unless you count wesley clarke who is a joke in himself..I spent 20 years in the Navy and remain close some 30 years later...this guy is considered a fool at best and a very dangerous one at that....he is ignorant and arrogant, he borders on the delusional and has no business anywhere near the oval office.

We know nothing about him and he wants it that way...when he stands on the stage with Mccain in the debates, he will be exposed for the vacous, childish fool that he is.

The folks wore wear and have worn the uniform know leadership, they know character, Mccain has both in spades and I would go into battle with him any day, bambi has nothing but hot air and couldn't lead me to the head.


Seawolf - guess you don't get out much?
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 7:37 AM EST Subject: Hey Jude
I know of no military guy past or present who supports..."

And guess what the closer they were to the pointy end the more support for Obama. The younger they are the more they support Obama. Your spew of disinformation is absurd. If you want to support an elderly senator who, as Limbaugh says: I heard was in Vietnam, then do so. But the vets go Obama watch..


Now the Dems. have both
pres. and veep candidates with no military experience and even Biden's so-called foreign affairs knowledge only comes from sitting on a committee that he regularly uses as a platform for bloviating endlessly, loving his own voice better than asking questions in hearings where someone might inform Biden that what he was saying was drivel.

Let's not forget Biden was driven out of the pres. campaign in 88 for accusations of plagiarism.

Two liars and frauds. The Dems. are a disaster.

I hope they poll worse than McGovern who only took MA, DC, and Guam. And McGovern had served during WW II and was traditionally Am. except for his anti-Vietnam war stance.

Today, even McGovern opposes the union sop of *card check* that would deprive workers of a secret ballots during organizaing. The Dems. cannot even claim anymore that they are the party of the workers that they regard as bitter, Bible-hugging, gun owners, and want to treat as objects for union goons.

Iraq Surge Article
The surge did work. Bush picked the right General. Even though he was called a liar, and General Betrayus. Even though both Obama and Hillary ranted and raved, so did Senator Bidden. And they expect my vote????

Thats one down, Iraq, and how many more threats do we face, Russia and Iran, China, both real threats. Iran and Russia have military treaties and will soon go after Isreal. They want control of Mid East oil, then they control the Western countries. China wants, for starters, Tiwahn back. They are building a seven hundred and fifty ship Navy which will be completed by 2012 to 2017. Totally modern. The Unitd States will have a older 150 ship Navy by then. They are building bombers, fighters and refueling tanker aircraft like crazy. Along with attack helicopters that look like ours. Also transport helcpters which again look like ours. Wonder where they got the technology and plans????

To me as a vet, and from the old school, I am 66 years old, still working ful time, it appears the Democrat leadership wants the United States to fail, so it can be re-built in their far left image. The Democrats of old are not like this new Democrat. The old Democrat was for the working folks. These new ones are not for us. They are for special interests, power and money. They have blocked our domnestic oil production for 35 plus years, the have the guts to blame Bush, they have blocked adding refineries from expanding, up dating, or nw ones for years, the blamed Bush. Oil folks, is a main part of our National Security. Big time. The United States blockaded Japan regarding oil, and WW2 started.

I use to be a Democrat, 30 plus years. No more. Now I am a Independent. If and when the good Democrats, and there are lots of them, get rid of the rich elitist like Sorros, the European rich fella, who is far left, and get back to the working people firt, I may go back. But now, no way.

Rosemary
Regarding your quotation that "history will confirm the importance and value of the determination and foresight of GWB"(presumably on Iraq), I offer the following quotation from Diana West's article on Townhall, entitled "America's Global Influence Spread Too thin".

You should read her entire article, but at least read the following from it:

(Regarding Iraq, West writes): "My sense is that a democratic ally and bulwark against Iran doesn't enshrine sharia in its constitution; doesn't have a prime minister practically itching, as Nouri al-Maliki put it to Der Spiegel, to "prosecute crimes committed by U.S. soldiers against our population"; doesn't have 42 percent of a population which, according to a 2008 BBC poll, believes attacks on U.S. troops are acceptable; doesn't make the U.S. soldiers who protect it pay OPEC prices at the pump; doesn't express solidarity with Hezbollah; doesn't participate in the Arab boycott of Israel. And that's just for starters".

Obama may indeed be wrong.

But Bush policies sure as hell weren't right.

Jude/jerabaub
You are just wrong.
Vets and active military do not have much respect for Barry Dunham.
M.S.M. may try to spin it some other way but the soldiers I know use adjectives a little too salty to post here.

Jerabaub...,you are wrong too.Please read redmanrt(post#26).. You mention an S.U.V.,and A.C..Aaaak!
If you're driving around in one,and you go home to an air conditioned home...thank a soldier.

They say that ignorance is bliss. But sometimes it just makes you look stupid!

William
How does the situation in Kirkuk figure into your assertion that the surge has worked?

Hal
Vets vote (R)almost always (that is when their votes are actually counted . . . they know a fraud when they see one. I cannot imagine any serviceman or vet actually saluting that Marxist.

Paul
I have an American passport,what a mistake!The entire World knows, that America is one of the most "Prejudiced" places in it.In England, my friends read the American papers and tell me of their disappointment.Mostly they assail America for the ways she has squandered her resources, physical and political.Articles like yours give this insight.The first paragraph sets the tone.In sports when you have equal teams,there are going to be "Fluctuations".Politics are no different.I will no longer be able to read your articles,they are "Pathetic"...

L.C.
Not sure what your point was.

Our freedoms indeed have come about thru the sacrifices of our soldiers...but the crucial point is that our soldiers' lives be jeopardized and sacrificed only in furtherance of OUR national security.

Read that portion of my 8:03 post on Diana West's quotations on Iraq.

Is that a "success" for the United States?


LC
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 8:06 AM EST ...They say that ignorance is bliss. But sometimes it just makes you look stupid! "

So true and you should take your own advice

Killer
Who cares about your English friends, that's purely anecdotal. Check out the waiting list for citizenship and you'll see how we are actually viewed - not that it matters. I am sick and tired of the media and others trying to portray America as out of step with the rest of the liberal world. Just wait til they need help with tsunami relief or ask Kuwait if they are happier now that Sadam is gone.

Sheeeese you people find so freakin important to be accepted by a bunch of painty-waistes, it's unbelievable.

Bad news Jakota
Obama tops McCain in military donations.

Imagine that.

Hal
I see you have reverted to the normal liberal tactic - start name calling. Besides if someone doesn't know the meaning of a word (which I happen to) that in no way makes them a liar. Ignorant, perhaps but certainly no liar.

You say "That may have been true once but is no longer..." Gee, Hal, I guess you must be right, I'll just take your word for it. I sure don't want to be called a liar again.

bryce1
that proves nothing - big oil gives more to Obama as well. Donations are not counted, votes are,

Marine's Dad
...I am confused, since when did being a Senator qualify you to spend any time in the white house. The executive and legislative branches of the government are separate. Just because you have a job in Washington DC does not necessarily mean that you will ever get an invitation to the White House. I might suggest you spend some time reading up on some old high school civics books before you start posting blogs...

He is what he is...
Listed below are obama's accomplishments, experience, thoughts on his judgement and character that would make him an excellent commander in chief:

Point taken Jakota
Guess we'll have to wait till November to see the real results.

not smoking anything
I'm sorry if facts bother you folks but:
1. active duty military are donating to Obama in a 6 to 1 margin over McCain
2. Disabled Veterans of American gave Obama 80% rating for his votes for vets, gave McCain 20%
3. Iraq and Afghanistan Vets for America gave McCain a "D" and Obama a "B+"
4. Obama's audience at the VFW was light because people were leaving the state in advance of the HURRICANE that was about to hit, sorry. But his response to McCain's offensive and continuing assault on his patriotism was quite loudly received.
5. The footage of Obama's Iraq visit--full of admiring military personnel--was shot by the PENTAGON, not the MSM.

Pistol: Hearsay is a poor standard for information.
Mac: So your "posts" represent all vets? I belong to the A.L. Womens Auxiliary, but would never extrapolate overall attitudes from that sample.
LC: "the soldiers YOU know" are probably like you. Tells me nothing.
indyconantidim: Clever lemming comment...that hasn't been used a couple thousand times on these blogs...

HHDoofus:
Got a bumper sticker for your ticket:

Prevaricator/Plagiarist '08 - No Truth Here

pass it
Obama's campaign reminds me of the time my sons (14 and 11) told me our dog broke a window in the family room ... Pass the Obama Kool-Aid.

The demo/Lib stupidity
is so common they must think that the average American patriot doesn't notice. Or they think that WE are so stupid that we accept all their lies as truth!

As A Korean vet myself, I agree with all the vets posting here. Ovomit would be a disaster for our country and our armed forces!

When during the Warren questioning, McCain answered quickly, precisely, and accurately! That is what we expect from our President and Commander-In-Chief. The MSM and Liberals call that a "Knee-Jerk" reaction!

But when Ovomit gave his non-answers with..uh, er, ah, hm, it depends, well if..etc. Thus hiding his true thoughts and avoiding a commitment. The MSM and Liberals call that nuance, "he's just being.. thoughtful!"

Ovomit is sickening as are the Liberals who defend this Marxist, Socialist pig!

prevarication & plagiarism
1. McCain committed a criminal lie when he swore he was already divorced when he applied for his marriage license to Cindy.
2. Biden cited the source of that comment several times before the instance where he didn't. While we are on the subject, can you say "Wikipedia Georgia entry"? Glass houses, boys....
3. It's easy for McCain to avoid plagiarism in fact, tho, since he hasn't actually written any of his books, leaving Mark Salter to coax together the narrative McCain claims as his own.

why not the Messiah?


I think that a number of little things make people nervous about Obamanation, and taken altogether they may prove fatal for him--

arugula... Rev. Wright... the militant wife they are trying to muffle... Rezco... virtually NO apropos experience-- the empty slate... a weird upbringing/background... vague promises about "change"-- BUT WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN?!... "people in Pa. embracing their guns and religion amid fears"... the certain sense that he would raise taxes and social welfare spending-- though that has NEVER worked in the past, and we theoretically slowed that government giveaway trend in the late 90's.

Funny thing, except for "the Bradley Factor," I would have thought a short time ago that the Messiah could not lose because Presidente
Jorge had made such a mess in Iraq and he and Amnesty John had embraced ILLEGALS, and gas prices had soared, but the Messiah might be blowing this lay-up... the election will be a referendum on Obamanation.

Jude
Who cares? Your five points whether true or spun are not germane. When the country was at its darkest hour in the War in Iraq, John McCain put his political career on the line and completely supported the surge. It was the most courageous political act America has seen in years. If the surge did not work he would not even be the Republican nominee.

Obama chose defeat. He was not willing to try the surge and has not had the courage to admit he was wrong. Democrats are week in foreign policy because they have no core beliefs. They will not completely support things they believe in. Look at their retreat on off shore drilling. When it comes to confronting evil you can’t parse words you must be bold. In a dangerous world with an emergent Russia we need a bold leader with strong beliefs. McCain has proven his wisdom in foreign policy.

Goshawk
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 9:16 AM EST ....As A Korean vet myself, I agree with all the vets posting here. Ovomit would be a disaster for our country and our armed forces!"

See no you do not agree with all the vets posting here because I happen to be one. Your blind psuedo patriotism and moral relativism have left a badly damaged military and tarnished USA. Wake up


Hal Doofass scribbles:
Goshawk
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 9:16 AM EST ....As A Korean vet myself, I agree with all the vets posting here. Ovomit would be a disaster for our country and our armed forces!"

See no you do not agree with all the vets posting here because I happen to be one. Your blind psuedo patriotism and moral relativism have left a badly damaged military and tarnished USA. Wake up

His usual bullsh!t. Making assertion about someone, then stating them as fact. And Hal, you are a still a REMF, Garritrooper, Sad Sack loolng for a job in a Dumbbuttcrap Administration, as Assistant Secretary of Degfense for Butt Kissing, and it does not matter whose. You threw Hillary under the bus faster than Obugout threw the unReverend Wright under the bus.

OBAMA LOOK BAD? NAW......
He looks better and better...maybe he can keep looking better and better--- for defeat!
elvis

Lepanto
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 9:31 AM EST Subject: Jude
Who cares? Your five points whether true or spun are not germane."

LMAO really LOL

" When the country was at its darkest hour in the War in Iraq, John McCain put his political career on the line and completely supported the surge."

He completely supported the invasion of Iraq as well as the failed conduct of the war until he finally began ghedging his bets. McCain put nothing on the line. The elderly guy has little or nothing to lose


"It was the most courageous political act America has seen in years..."

the standard for courage has certainly fallen to a low standard

"... McCain has proven his wisdom in foreign policy..."

LMAO "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran..." to a 50s tune is not wisdom as a matter of fact such disregard for the lives of our military only highlights the question if the elderly senator is mentally competent

Hal
Spin any way you want Obugout's suit is as empty as your head. You haven't had an original thought the entire time you've been here.

In fact, Hal, you must be absolutely insane. You keep coming to to TH, with the same result, the complete utter disregard for your ideas the conservatives here show you. Thatiat is a definition of insanity.

Good Article
I fully agree with this article. I run with many former & some current military members and don't know of a one that thinks Obama makes a good CIC candidate.... not a one. They're not excited, not enthused, and not encouraged about the thought of BO as President. He is THE MOST unqualified guy that's been foisted upon us, EVER. I'd like for us Americans to figure out a way to make campaigning for this important job less "slash & burn" so that the sharpest, most qualified, would run.. not the persons with the most ambition.

Lumberjack7392
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 10:45 AM EST ....You keep coming to to TH, with the same result, the complete utter disregard for your ideas the conservatives here show you. ..."

LOL I still show a counter view and do not leave your extremism go unchallenged

exF14Pilot
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 10:58 AM EST Subject: Good Article
I fully agree with this article. I run with many former & some current military members and don't know of a one that thinks Obama makes a good CIC candidate.... not a one. "

Amazing the Norfolk/Langley area has a huge group of veterans for Obama

"They're not excited, not enthused, and not encouraged about the thought of BO as President. He is THE MOST unqualified guy that's been foisted upon us, EVER."

Ahhh see most folks I know say hands down that would be GW but I think they are talking incompetent versus unqualified. Since the CIC is a civilian what makes one qualified?

" I'd like for us Americans to figure out a way to make campaigning for this important job less "slash & burn" so that the sharpest, most qualified, would run.. not the persons with the most ambition. "

LMAO you have two points here one is less slash which McCain supported but then turned his campaign over to the same folks who used slash and burn on his daughter and family. Second, most qualified that is an open question and would certainly eliminate McCain

Hooray for Our Military Men
Our military men are heroes and for any politician to say anything against the sacrifyces that they voluntarily provide for our country should rightfully bring tepid or cold responses by those who keep our country free and protect our citizens! Hooray for our Military Men!

Obama - No Conviction - No Problem
Excellent Article.

Obama has no conviction.

After 20 years nodding to Rev. Wright, he is told by his advisors that such preachings are not acceptable to most Americans, so he agreed, in public. Instead of standing up for his church, its minister and the congregation, he tossed them off like so much old clothes. No problem. No conviction.

Georgia, an upstart democracy gets invaded by an autocradic disciplinarian Russia and Obama says both sides should show restraint. Nice. No problem. No conviction.

No conviction? Big problem! No thank you.

Hal Donahue
I specifically mentioned political courage. There is no need to go into McCain’s physical or moral courage because that is well documented and above reproach. If you can’t acknowledge McCain’s political courage backing the surge in December, when it was not a popular position and he was in a fight for the nomination, you are either not very astute politically or a partisan hack. Even democratic pundits have called McCain’s backing of the surge in December as courageous.

Your reference to McCain’s joke about bombing Iran only makes my point. We know where he stands when dealing with vicious dictators. Does anybody believe Obama’s strategy of face to face talks with Iran will work?

Military experience...
... schmilitary experience. What bugs me is the total lack so far on EITHER ticket of anyone with entrepreneurial, P&L business experience. We conservatives are too obsessed with the military, and need to root for someone who's lost sleep worrying about making payroll.

Hal, you may need to point out where....
...all of these "Veterans for Obama" are. At BO's website, he lists just over 1300 "veterans", which isn't much since the military is a hundred times larger than that. Since I live here in the Norfolk area, and pay attention to the news, I have not seen this "huge" group, so try not to hyperventilate while you exaggerate. The rest of your post is typical of your other rants, tinged with insults. ...Who needs you? Flake off, nitwit.

conversation vs spin
Lepanto: My points (facts) were directed to respond to the spin offered by previous posters in response to my original post. I was doing the courtesy of replying, having a conversation. It is YOU who have interjected spin, 'my friend'. And you seem to have bought the big spin of "the surge" and McCain's "heroism". First, what's heroic about standing up to a bunch of people who've been shown to be utterly incompetent in handling a war, and a republican group of fellow senators who don't have power to appoint you to anything cuz the dems are in charge? Second, "the surge" is a hoax. If the folks running things really thought more security was the crucial factor in providing cover for political progress, all they would have had to do was order 25,000 more bodies from Blackwater, to join the 125,000 or so who are there. Political reconciliation was beginning to percolate, the troops helped that. But it's not like the troop additions made the political/cultural success work. Money helped alot, buying the allegiance of local leaders, and those leaders themselves being sick of watching their neighborhoods ransacked.
Our soldiers did great jobs wherever they were deployed, but not because John McCain was a hero. Let's not rewrite history.

While we are on it, someone asked earlier how Bush & co could have foreseen the sectarian violence....Perhaps by paying attention to all those history books Bush is always reading. When you remove a dictator from a population that (a) largely has known nothing but that dictatorship, and (b) is full of sects that have been hating each other for many generations, you usually get chaos. What's important here is that McCain was more gung ho to bring this about, and with no aftermath plan, than Bush.
What do you all think of his desire to bring back the draft?

Not for Him!!
I would in no way sacrifice my life for this Government nor Obama at any level, I served and would sacrifice my life for my Country and those who have served and died so bravely before me, but Obama as Commander and Chief no way! this Guy dose not have the first clue on real Sacrifice nor do any of the arm chair bleeding heart liberal Socalist Democraps, I mean I am a Disabled Veteran and to listen to Obama and the Dems Wine about all the Lifes Lost from the war get real,More people die every year in this Country from the lack of health Insurance and a lack of being able to afford Medication that has been lost in the war over the last 5 years and what have they done about that (NADA) and just like the War and the Previous Election that Handed the dems Congress and the Senate they have done nothing but Wine and Cry about it and put the Troops lives in danger than lift a finger to do anything to help eliminate the problem of Terrorists against our Nation.If we as Americans don't realize that our Politicians weather Dem or Repub are the problem and will bring us down,and that the bottom line is if we are not ready to fight to get our Country back than we are the problem, it might take some sacrifice but thats what built this great nation of freedom was sacrifice,not money but Blood was what paved the way and its time we realize that and put our people and land first before anybody or thing.

Hal Donahue - Living In the Past
Hal Donahue offers to other vets, "Your blind psuedo patriotism and moral relativism have left a badly damaged military and tarnished USA. Wake up"

Intellectual Elitist nonsense.

In the military, the old axiom, "what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger", is an everyday thing. Damage forges a stronger military. Today's military is stronger and better equipped than any before it. Like an old snob, you probably think everything was better back in your day. Barf!

Things have changed. You have been passed by. Get used to it.

America is no more tarnished today than it was 200 years ago. Heck, over 30 years ago, "ugly Ameriican" was a popular book. It has always been a popular past-time by intellectual elitists to quip about America's image. You are merely just another intellectual elitist carrying on the legacy of snobery.

Hal Donahue convinces me to vote McCain
It's the Hal Donahue and Ranger29 (i.e. Robert) who are here to demoralize the Republicans to not vote for Republicans that have finally convinced me to vote 100% against Obama and therefore I will hold my nose and pull the straight Republican ticket.

Previously I was going to vote for principle and vote for Chuck Baldwin for President/Constitution Party.

I have NOW stopped talking McCain down with my friends and NOW just point out how HORRIBLE leftwing radical proabortion Obama is.

Thank you Hal Donahue and Ranger29 for waking me up to the FACT that I must defend this country from the EVIL left wing radical proabortion Obama.

exF14Pilot
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 12:03 PM EST ... which isn't much since the military is a hundred times larger than that."

LMAO I just received the list for PA that greatly exceeds that number so I have no idea what you are talking about the numbers are far stronger and growing daily

"Since I live here in the Norfolk area, and pay attention to the news, I have not seen this "huge" group, so try not to hyperventilate while you exaggerate. "

LOL well glad you read a bit but watch events in the next two months. Hypoxia on your part maybe?

". ...Who needs you? Flake off, nitwit. "

LMAO

Jude
Please re-read my response to you. I never said McCain was heroic for supporting the surge I said he showed political courage. McCain would be the first to say he was not a hero for taking a tough political position. His is a hero for his actions as a POW. I can understand you being unfamiliar with courageous political positions because with modern democrats they are virtually unknown. It is why Obama did so poorly at Pastor Warren’s forum. His advisors should have warned him to avoid any discussion of issues where the American people expect you to have firm beliefs.

jude
If McCain does advocate bringing back the draft, that would be GREAT news.

Let America's fathers and mothers in effect vote to send their sons and daughters into combat, and possible death or lifelong horrific injuries, over "democratizing" Muslim tribes who have historically been tribal peoples for a millennium, and over which having nothing to do with our national security.

I would love to see that "vote", and that debate.

Not to disparage Muslim societies.

Whatever type of social order and governance that works for them, is fine with me.

Bush was too chickens**t to ask for the draft on Iraq, and instead supplemented the relatively few enlistees with private contractors.

I am opposed to Obama due to his tax policies and his weird mindset about soliciting the approval of peoples of the world on what types of vehicles Americans drive, or what temperature we heat our homes, but McCain worries me alot because I fear he will follow the disastrous neocon foreign policy that so wrecked the Bush administration.

Lepanto
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 11:55 AM EST Hal Donahue
I specifically mentioned political courage. There is no need to go into McCain’s physical or moral courage because that is well documented and above reproach. "

BS heck according to McCain no he wasn't even tortured was he? He only underwent enhanced interrogation? He cannot have it both ways and he clearly demonstrates that any reserves of both" physical or moral courage" ran dry some time ago

"If you can’t acknowledge McCain’s political courage backing the surge in December, when it was not a popular position and he was in a fight for the nomination, you are either not very astute politically or a partisan hack. Even democratic pundits have called McCain’s backing of the surge in December as courageous."

It was desparate he had nothing to lose at that point did he

"Your reference to McCain’s joke about bombing Iran only makes my point. We know where he stands when dealing with vicious dictators. "

Georgia is a better example an ineffective sabre rattler when he had no sabres that made Russia look strong and the US look ineffective - it is not I drinking kool aid here

"Does anybody believe Obama’s strategy of face to face talks with Iran will work? "

Believe has nothing to do with it. This is where you folks go so wrong. Bush is still strutting and Osama makes a laughing stock of him daily. Now even McCain is coming around to Obama's Iraq strategy are they not?

EF14-LJ7392-MDad
The Obamoron's 2 Point Plan on The WOT:
1. Bend Over and Grab Ankles
2. Repeat Step 1

Courageous Democrat
Jude, I wish to correct my last comment on the dearth of Democrats with political courage. Senator Joseph Lieberman while a Democrat showed political courage by supporting the War in Iraq and the surge. He was rewarded for this courageous stance by being tossed out of the Democratic Party.

NO verification: "Obama tops McCain

in military donations."

This is the same ruse that the ronnie paulbots tried...

ANYBODY can make a donation and put "put on the donation form" that they're military! AND there is NO VERIFICATION!

No different really than my donations to William Russell (PA) in halDonahooey's name. LOL


GENERAL BARACK-HUSSEIN-BIN-BIDEN
THE WAY TED KENNEDY MIGHT INTRODUCE THEM TONIGHT AT THE CONVENTION.MIKE D FROM TEXAS

MILITARY CONTRIBUTIONS TO OBAMA
I have serious doubts that the military is contributing six to one, for Obama. If true, I suspect it is young, black folks who, understandably, would like to see a black president. I don't recall a single person saying that they contributed to any candidate in my thirty-four years of naval service. I believe most avoided politics, except for voting, due to the Hatch Act.

Anybody notice that the red stars and their placement on the Pepsi building in Denver look very much like those once seen in the USSR? I seen a building in Odessa four-five years ago that still had the red stars on its pillars -- no money to remove them, I suppose

Obama bin-Biden has a lovely ring to it
Thanks, Mike.

Mac Moore
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 12:20 PM EST Subject: ...In the military, the old axiom, "what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger", is an everyday thing. "

LMAO that ranks right up there with Carter Era comment we got so good doing more with less that we can do everything with nothing"

"Damage forges a stronger military. Today's military is stronger and better equipped than any before it. "

If you believe this you cannot read the reports there for all to see

"Like an old snob, you probably think everything was better back in your day. Barf!"

not at all but at least the Republicans didn't abuse the troops and veterans back in my day - they certainly do now

"America is no more tarnished today than it was 200 years ago."

Oh yes it is Reagan's shining city on the hill has been dragged down and submerged in the mud by conservatives.

" ...You are merely just another intellectual elitist carrying on the legacy of snobery. "

We are now a torture state and no longer the beacon of justice to the world that we were once and hopefully will be again soon What I find amazing is how quickly a group of fundamentalist conservatives could so quickly fall into the trap of end justifies the means moral relativism. Snob my backside - we are the patriots and you have damaged our country

correctio
have NOT tried

Stop using us for a politica football
Stop assuming that any of you can speak for what the "military" thinks about anything. It isn't a monolith and it isn't a bloc. It made of thousands of people doing a job that most Americans are too pathetic to do. Neither McCain nor Obama are god-kings.


Damn liberals need to show the armed forces a touch more respect.
Damn conservatives need to stop worshipping it.

Anne
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 12:58 PM EST Subject: NO verification: "Obama tops McCain

in military donations."

This is the same ruse that the ronnie paulbots tried...

ANYBODY can make a donation and put "put on the donation form" that they're military! AND there is NO VERIFICATION!"

LMAO sure there is there is a name and address actually as well as contact info. You never contributed or did you lie on the form

"No different really than my donations to William Russell (PA) in halDonahooey's name. LOL"

donate away to those fundraising firms all at the same address in DC who keep 80% of donations. Doesn't that hook in your mouth hurt?

Seadog
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 1:04 PM EST Subject: MILITARY CONTRIBUTIONS TO OBAMA
...I don't recall a single person saying that they contributed to any candidate in my thirty-four years of naval service. I believe most avoided politics, except for voting, due to the Hatch Act."

Hmmm they have to report their occupation etc when they donate. I was at Walter Reed about a month ago in the big room with the TVs overhead while Obama and McCain gave speeches on foreign policy. Lots of folks there, lots of pro Obama comments zero pro McCain comments


donahue, jude, et all


Is it true you support the party of Cut and Run, with Jihadi appeaser Obama and the cafeteria Catholic Joe Biden on their ticket?

Will you back them to the bitter end? Yes?

Good; that's all I wanted to know. {{{fart}}}

Hal Doofass:
Little tidbit to help you sleep. I am getting ready to go to work. Work being defined as Instructor of History at a local Community College

Too bad donahooey: Donating directly...

But my point was... there is NO VERIFICATION!

Anyone can put anything on the donation card, which is what they found with the paulbot donations..... HA HA HA


This is really making you CA-RAZY, isn't it???


And, in case your day isn't "jump started" yet, I just heard that 25 MILLION...minimum dems are now expected to vote *****FOR JOHN McCAIN!*****

Symphony to my ears! LMAO!


Lumberjack7392
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 2:23 PM EST...Little tidbit to help you sleep. I am getting ready to go to work. Work being defined as Instructor of History at a local Community College "

So I am glad to see you are not on the dole. If you can damage the students I am sure you will but hey they need to learn about extremists too. Bet they have some great laughs at your expense LOL

Anne
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 2:23 PM EST Subject: ...Anyone can put anything on the donation card, which is what they found with the paulbot donations..... HA HA HA"

"They found...." dear little one that alone means they are verifible...duh..


dreadnaught
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 2:13 PM EST Subject: donahue, jude, et all

Does all the mindless name calling pass for concious thought where you are from or are you just losing it?

Democrats
Help!!! The Democrats have taken over Denver. It's a manure pile.

Hey donahooey: See Brett #72 above. :-)

Remember many, many months ago I asked why you, a lunatic liberal spent SOOOOO much time on TH, a Conservative site?

And remember you said that you didn't want (new?) posters to just go along with the Conservative point of view and wanted them to hear the leftist's side?

(Okay, you weren't as eloquent, but that's in essence what you said.)

And, remember I told you that you in fact, driving people to see the light on the Conservative side?

Guess your sordid little plan backfired, now didn't it.

"It's the Hal Donahue and Ranger29 (i.e. Robert) who are here to demoralize the Republicans to not vote for Republicans that have finally convinced me to vote 100% against Obama and therefore I will hold my nose and pull the straight Republican ticket.

"I have NOW stopped talking McCain down with my friends and NOW just point out how HORRIBLE leftwing radical proabortion Obama is.

"Thank you Hal Donahue and Ranger29 for waking me up to the FACT that I must defend this country from the EVIL left wing radical proabortion Obama."


Well, I am doing a little "Told ya so dance" right now.... 'Cause I told ya so... :-)

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

LMAO :-)

Terrorists are Barak's Buddies !
The anti American left has promoted our defeat in Iraq and now have nominated Obama whose friends are terrorists Mr.& Mrs.Khalidi the former Press Director of the Palistine Liberation Organization and the domestic terrorist William Ayers and his terrorist wife. Besides Reverand Wright indoctrinating the Obamas in Black Liberation Theology , Barak has surrounded himself with political operatives from the crooked Chicago infrastructure including David Axlerod who has ties to Major Daley the soon to be indicted Illinois Governor and the convicted Tony Rezko. J.vanEe

donahooey: Well, there you have it!!!!

There's your problem... or at least ONE OF THEM.

You cannot read nor comprehend what's written!

"Anyone can put anything on the donation card, which is what they found with the paulbot donations..... HA HA HA"

Now, try to pay close attention here...

What they found was that it was NOT VERIFIABLE!

And, since most of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan had NO CLUE who ron paul even was, it was not a safe assumption that they would be sending in donations in the supposed record numbers that the paulbots claimed.

I know this is difficult, but get someone to explain the logic there.... Okay? :-)

I suspect that at this point, it's a safe assumption that most of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan know who Marxist Obama is, and that he's about to be the dimwit nomination for pres.

But given that many of the troops are there voluntarily... on their second or third deployment, and they know they're there for a good cause, it's just not even logical to assume they'd vote for someone who's been opposed to them and the WOT from the beginning.

IF that's way too logical for you, get someone to explain it to you in increments...

Cheers! 25 MILLION (min.) dems voting for John McCain!

Anne
Maybe they are donating in 'The Cone of Silence' that the Trollbots and Obamorons were whining about.

Georgetwin: Excellent point! :-)
But wait, ol' hal donahooey seems to disappeared.

Why does he do that? Must be the truth is a stab in the heart... assuming he has a heart!

Anne
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 3:16 PM EST ...And, since most of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan had NO CLUE who ron paul even was, it was not a safe assumption that they would be sending in donations in the supposed record numbers that the paulbots claimed. "

Never saw the Paulists but the campaign filings do say who donates and I suspect as always you underestimate the intelligence of our military most do pay attention to international affairs

"...I suspect that at this point, it's a safe assumption that most of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan know who Marxist Obama is, and that he's about to be the dimwit nomination for pres. "

LMAO see always the lie. You are telling a lie when you call him a Marxist plain and simple no wiggle room at all

"...it's just not even logical to assume they'd vote for someone who's been opposed to them and the WOT from the beginning."

It is very logical that they would chose someone who will stop their repeated abuse by the national command authority. Walter Reed did happen and there was no support none for McCain


Anne
They are grasping at straws if they are taking pages from The Playbook of Ronnie Paul and The ALCOAettes.

Hal Doofass writes (I think):
Lumberjack7392
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 2:23 PM EST...Little tidbit to help you sleep. I am getting ready to go to work. Work being defined as Instructor of History at a local Community College "

So I am glad to see you are not on the dole. If you can damage the students I am sure you will but hey they need to learn about extremists too. Bet they have some great laughs at your expense LOL

Actually, REMF Deskjockey Sad Sack, I am one of the most popular instructors on campus, and as my Department Chair say, "her go to guy for open classes". As an example, before I was assigned to a class it had 5 students within 3 days it had 45, and was closed. Unlike your hero, Ward Churchill, I do NOT bring my politics into the classroom. I seriously doubt that you could pass my class, since it requires independent thought, not just repeating mindless DU. DailyKOS, DNC, HuffPuke talking points

Actually Doofass:
I use you as a prime example of not only an extremist, but also as a fanatic.

Armed Forces Vote
To hal and Anne,
In my EXPERIENCE, having recently returned from a 14 month plus tour of duty in Iraq, the overwhelming MAJORITY of troops in Iraq had no clue who Congressman Ron Paul was. I know this because the same silly question came up when I was there and I asked them when politics came up and only two or 3 per 100 knew. Not surprising because if i walked the streets of Downtown Savannah and asked people if they knew who Ron Paul was the answers would be about the same. Now I mostly talked to officers and Senior NCOs.

As to Active Duty military campaign contributions the amount given by average Soldiers is negligable and not at all a good measure of military votes.

Military votes in general are negligable on elections. Even though there are lots of voter assistance programs, most Soldiers (my personal observation not based on research)simply don't do the required paperwork to vote. Then many of those that do vote, do so by absentee ballot and the ballots are not always counted.

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Lumberjack7392
HAve the cops started caving in Drug Addled, Leftover Hippie, Skulls in Denver and throwing them in 'Gitmo on the Platte' yet?

Awe donahooey: You're having a hard time

with this, aren't you? Whaaa whaaa whaaa :-(

1. Believe it or not, you are not the only one who is in touch with troops.

2. In fact, many of us are in touch with troops in still in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, and many who have recently returned.

3. Your little whiny, cry baby take on the troops and the war is NOT what we're all hearing. (Might be a clue for YOU to man-up!)

4. According to the guys I was in touch with, hardy anyone of the troops in Iraq even knew who ronnie paul was during the primaries. (and the guys I was in touch with, even asked around for me. The response was "ron paul who?")

5. We have had a RECORD NUMBER of troops VOLUNTEERING to for extra tours. Now exactly how much sense does that make if the troops as so opposed to the war. NONE!!!

6. We've also had record numbers of RE-ENISTMENTS. See #5.

.... Following this so far?......

7. Now we have, MILLIONS (like 25 million!) dems voting for McCain rather than Marxist Obama. Hmmmmm???? Go figure.

8. Calling the twit Marxist Obama is not only the truth, you’d realize that if you bothered to find out what Marx advocated, and what Marxism and Communism is.

9. Not a good idea to call anyone a liar until you know what you’re taking about… And you're just talking out of your hat!


Lumberjack7392
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 3:50 PM EST Subject: ... So I am glad to see you are not on the dole. If you can damage the students I am sure you will but hey they need to learn about extremists too. Bet they have some great laughs at your expense LOL "

Hit a nerve did I? LOL I will remember and use later

"Actually, ...As an example, before I was assigned to a class it had 5 students within 3 days it had 45, and was closed. Unlike your hero, Ward Churchill, I do NOT bring my politics into the classroom."

Ahhh I was going to ask if the school had real accreditation it must if you hide your extremism LOL

".. I seriously doubt that you could pass my class, since it requires independent thought, not just repeating mindless DU. DailyKOS, DNC, HuffPuke talking points "

Hmmm really why would I ever take a course from you???? From what I have seen here intellectual honesty doesn't exist in your world

Tinsldr2: Thank you! :-)

And isn't it interesting that Pelosi and her henchmen have more or less stood in the way of passing a bill to ensure the overseas military votes were delivered in time, and counted...

Must be the libs are afraid of what the count might be...


Oh and Tinsldr2, hope things are well now that you're home. :-)


Anne
NAME 1 THING that Plastic Surgery Pelosi has accomplished since taking up the gavel?

Hal Doofass writes (I think):
Ahhh I was going to ask if the school had real accreditation it must if you hide your extremism LOL

".. I seriously doubt that you could pass my class, since it requires independent thought, not just repeating mindless DU. DailyKOS, DNC, HuffPuke talking points "

Hmmm really why would I ever take a course from you???? From what I have seen here intellectual honesty doesn't exist in your world

One, Doofass, it is NOT the professional to inject your own political beliefs into a class, but then agai the class you attended was Romper Room.

Two,As far as intellectual honesty, you don't have any. Then again you don't have a scintilla of an emanation from a penumbra of intelligence. I have yet to see you say anything original in thought. I see you don't deny all you do is repeat mindless talking points

Georgetwin: Ummm? That's a difficult one

Let me think....








Still thinking.... ???????






Oh wait, I know, I know. She shut down the House (turned off the the lights and shut off the C-Span cameras) walked out and closed the door behind her, and went on a FIVE WEEK VACATION!


Right answer????

Iraq and Soldiers Views
Soldiers views on if we should ever have gone in to Iraq are very varied. As we go up the chain of command you got more support for us being there in my personal experience.

As for whether we should stay there and continue the fight until we win, that had much more support but not universal support.

Re-enlistment rates in theater were VERY high with almost all units far exceeding their goals and doing so early.

Now if you asked most Soldiers at their ten month mark on a 14-15 month tour if they would rather be in iraq or be home we would say home. I definatly enjoy my family and going fishing every weekend (www.sharkfighter.com). The occasional beer is nice also. This doesn't show a lack of support for the mission or mean that i don't sometimes feel almost guilty being in GA while there is still work to do in iraq and Afghanistan, it just shows the saying " No one prays for peace more then the Soldier because he is the one tht makes the ultimate sacrifice in War".

While most of us prefer peacetime, the MAJORITY of US troops support the mission and want to win. This is NOT Viet Nam (and no offense to those great vets)with massive desertions (there have been a few), troop unrest, and alleged 'fragging' of officers.

Hi Anne, it is great to be home!! As 5:00 approaches I get to go home to my wife and will grill some steaks tonight. Its the little things like that (and listening to hannity on the drive home), that mean so much to me. :)

Donahue, the lying blowhard
Hal Donahue is a lying blowhard. He asks us to "willingly suspend our disbelief" as he pecks away at his keyboard. Like the Chinese, for him the truth is not a reality; merely a perception.

Anne
She also ORDERED The Capitol Police to stand down when Anti-War Protesters wanted to dump paint on the steps of The Capitol. So The British Army and Plastic Surgery Pelosi are the only 2 entities who have defaced The Capitol. Also, on Meet The Press this Hal-Wit Harridan said 3 TIMES that Natural Gas IS NOT a Fossil Fuel. Ugly, Stupid and Vicious. That’s a Liberal Woman for you.

Tinsldr2
Glad you are home and safe Amigo ;)!

Georgetwin: Ooops. Forgot about that one

Didn't see that Meet the Press. That one is probably worth looking up on youtube. Sounds like a goodie.

Couldn't have been quite as good as "I'm trying to save the planet, I'm trying to save the planet."

You've got to admit, that was a gem!


Anne
Delusions of Granduer seem to be catching among Liberals. (i.e. Obamoron, Pelosi, Trolltards, etc)

Anne,
Did you see Pelosi on Meet the Press with Brokaw? Her spin is that the GOP in the darkened well are dupe of big oil.

As for troop votes, libs are always for counting every vote as long as its not a conservative one (felons, dead people, illegals)

indy: I have to check that one out

on youtube... Missed it...


It's obvious that donahooey is in SUCH

denial that were he on the Titanic, he'd be the one standing on the deck, water up to his knees, and still yelling...

"THIS SHIP IS NOT SINKING! IT'S NOT SINKING!.."

And even when water got up to his neck, and sharks swimming around, he'd still be yelling...

"THIS SHIP IS NOT SINKING, YOU NITWITS! IT'S NOT SINKING, I TELL YOU! LMAO.."




Tinsldr2
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 4:38 PM EST Subject: ...While most of us prefer peacetime, the MAJORITY of US troops support the mission and want to win. This is NOT Viet Nam (and no offense to those great vets)with massive desertions (there have been a few), troop unrest, and alleged 'fragging' of officers."

The difference is that we have a professional army now in Vietnam we had a draft army that literally toward the end was dragged over there by force of arms. But instead of a draft we hire mercenaries (as even gunny was) at huge cost to fight rather than a draft that folks would stop. The professional military cannot sustain rotation after rotation at this rate. Was Iraq a blunder - little doubt.

glad you are home enjoy the steaks...

Anne
If you call Obama a Marxist then you are a liar plain, simple no wiggle room

HA! That's rich! donahooey is telling

Tinsldr2... Ha Ha Ha Ha


EXCUSE ME, donahooey... Tnsldr2 has been there... don't think he needs YOU to tell him ANYTHING!




Paul and the Left Wing Response
Great Article, Mr. Greenberg.
I couldn't agree more.
The Left in America has grown by teaching school children their views and making it illegal to teach them ours. But they have not grown enough to win national elections. Just local ones.
Leftists have to hide how they really feel about the kind of country America is and where they really want to take it. It is their goal to eradicate freedom of religon, and replace it with their own faithless ideology. There is no freedom in them and they cannot stand for me to be free.
They twist the Constitution to say wha6t they wish it said instead of what it plaiunly says and then when we react to their action, they call us conservative reactionaries. Wow!
We need a leader who can stand up to the world powers and back them down.
When Jesse Owens was competing in the 1938 Olympics in Berlin under Nazi control and ideology, he was asked how he could represent a country like America that was denying him and his race their basic human rights... AND WE WERE! He said, "We got our problems, but their is nothing wrong in my country that Mr. Hitler can fix." I feel the same about Mr. Obama, all of Europe, and everyone else who stands against us in the world. As an American Indian, I know my country isn't perfect, but those guys on the left can't fix it by running from Russia, Iran, and Al Qeda.

donahooey: Don't need wiggle room!

He's a Marxist!!! Best you do some reading about Marx and Marxism before you make even more a fool of yourself than you already have.

Remember, right out of the Marxist Handbook! :-)

Or, would you prefer Comrade Obama, or Commie Obamie? They all fit! :-)



And, btw, thank you again for sending Brett to the Conservative side... See #96. :-)

Another one for our side! LMAO.


donahooey: I DARE you to go to this site
Read this site and THEN get back to me...

http://obamaism.blogspot.com/

Cheers! :-)

To hal on mercenaries
mostly wrong again. While today's army is better then the draft Army and few serious people want to go back to that, we are accomplishing OUR missions without mercenaries. You really need to stop reading fiction.

There is contracted security forces such as blackwater that are not doing combat missions (example not seeking out and engaging enemy)but provide security for STATE DEPARTMENT personel and some Iraqis.

While they are prepared to engage if they come under contact that is not their mission.

Now in the higher unit headquartrs we have non-military contractors as translators, and some system experts that augment the "green suiters" that they support. Example General Dynamics sold us a new sattelite communication system and while Soldiers run it, there is a company rep at each major base that assists in the warranty of parts and training of Soldiers. But this is nothing new and has been going on since I joined in the 80s.

And as for Halliburton, they were hired by Pres Clinton in Bosnia and Kosovo for the same servcies they provide us in Iraq.
Tinsldr2@yahoo.com
Waiting on Charcoal to heat so can put up the Steaks!!

Hal of the "Good Old Days"
Mac Moore offers to Hal Donahue,"Like an old snob, you probably think everything was better back in your day. Barf!"

Hal Donahue retorts, "..not at all but at least the Republicans didn't abuse the troops and veterans back in my day - they certainly do now"

Like I said, you probably think "..back in my day...". Here's a hint, when your family and friends roll their eyes while you pontificate, do not take it as a compliment.

Hal Donahue - Laughing Stock
Mac Moore offers, "In the military, the old axiom, "what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger", is an everyday thing. "

Hal Donahue retorts, "...that ranks right up there with Carter Era comment we got so good doing more with less that we can do everything with nothing"

No, it ranks up there with life. We all grow from experience, if we outlive it. So does our military. Our military is not extinct. It continues to grow from its experience.



MacMoore: It's amazing just how out of

touch donahooey really is...

Tinsdr2 just recently returned from a tour, and provided a explained about mercenaries, which is quite different from what donahooey would like to believe, and has posted....

donahooey is delusional...


Hal - A John Kerry Desciple
Hal Donahue offers, "We are now a torture state and no longer the beacon of justice to the world that we were once and hopefully will be again soon What I find amazing is how quickly a group of fundamentalist conservatives could so quickly fall into the trap of end justifies the means moral relativism. Snob my backside - we are the patriots and you have damaged our country"

Snob.

We are not a "Torture State".

Of course, like John Kerry, you probably project your own inept experience onto all of your comrads. He too, testified to such nonsense as "torture state", as you are now. Yes, a proud tradtion of elitist snobbery: Self above all else / others.

No news here, just tired old elitist's rhetoric, recycled over again.

Well, the rest of us also do projections. My experience, contrary to yours, tells me that we are not a "Torture State". I am proud of my comrads - all. For most of us, Semper Fidelis does not mean "faithful when convenient" or "turn and trash at will".

Tinsldr2
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 6:39 PM EST To hal on mercenaries
mostly wrong again. While today's army is better then the draft Army and few serious people want to go back to that, we are accomplishing OUR missions without mercenaries. You really need to stop reading fiction."

You are right about not going back but you are most certainly wrong when you talk mercenaries - simple fact they outnumber active duty personel. What is the readiness of your new unit?

"...Waiting on Charcoal to heat so can put up the Steaks!! "

Enjoy! Just out of the hot tub and lighting the grill here

Anne Offers Another Perspective
Anne offers as to Hal Donahue's acusatons, "Tinsdr2 just recently returned from a tour, and provided a explained about mercenaries, which is quite different from what donahooey would like to believe, and has posted...."

I am sure that would be the case.

Hal Donahue strikes me as know-it-all snob, where all life hits its apex during his watch. All things before or after his watch are in suspect. Intellectual Elites seem to have that in common.

Mac Moore
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 7:43 PM EST Hal - A John Kerry Desciple
Hal Donahue offers, "We are now a torture state and no longer the beacon of justice to the world that we were once and hopefully will be again soon What I find amazing is how quickly a group of fundamentalist conservatives could so quickly fall into the trap of end justifies the means moral relativism. Snob my backside - we are the patriots and you have damaged our country"

Snob.

We are not a "Torture State"."

Yes we are. Bush the torturer admits ordering the waterboarding (torture by our own definition until GW) of at least three individuals and the state department admits that over 30 individuals died while undergoing enhanced interrogation. Facts

"Of course, like John Kerry, you probably project your own inept experience onto all of your comrads. He too, testified to such nonsense as "torture state", as you are now. Yes, a proud tradtion of elitist snobbery: Self above all else / others."

read above you moral relativist and apoligist for crimes against humanity


Hal Donahue
I admit to being ignorant about many things. But not about this war. I am in it. I have lived it since Sept. 11th. 2001, and I know the stakes.

Why is it that so mant Navy guys don't get it. Is it because you are at sea?

One more democrat
Anne,
Make that 25 million and one voting for McCain.
Hal convinced me too. :) Way to go Hal. With friends like you, Bambi doesn't need enemies.

Hal Donahue
Go Back to the Barbie my good man, maybe you took some shrapnel in the head. Eat the meat but don't buy the Big "O", he's comin you know and wants to give it to you real hard, so if you want the Big "O" then bend over and grab your ankles Bro........Cheers

Mac Moore
"Date: Aug 25, 2008 - 8:02 PM EST Anne Offers Another Perspective
....Hal Donahue strikes me as know-it-all snob, where all life hits its apex during his watch. All things before or after his watch are in suspect. "

Nope not at all but hey you self important guy knows it all right? LOL

"...Intellectual Elites seem to have that in common..."

LMAO oh thank you I sent this to all my friends LMAO "I am now part of the "Intellectual Elites" LMAO get real LOL but thank you for the laugh

Hal - Enjoys Self Over Others
Hal Donahue offers as to his snobbih accusation of "torture Nation", "Nope not at all but hey you self important guy knows it all right? LOL"

You are the one calling your comrads torturers, not me. I make no such silly claim.

And, like all snobs, laughing at, instead of with, others is a signature trait. I notice that you pretend to do that alot.

TORTURE STATE???
#5 I am soo sick and tired of whiney left/lib
nincompoops howling about our torturing of the poor widdle pwisoners, when you, your party and Barack Hussein Obama, the POTUS wannab don't bat an eye at real torture. Which is worse,
waterboarding a terrorist that has info that could save American lives or executing an AMERICAN baby that's born EXCEPT for it's head and that little tiny head is pierced by scissors so the executioner can destroy it's brain..torture is describes as inflicting
pain on a victim..WHAT in SAM HILL DO YOU CALL
THAT? Waterboarding works for me, cruelly executing a helpless baby, no bigger than my prematurely born grandson who was 3 pounds at birth and went down to 2.3..now he's ;17. P.B.
abortion inflicts excruciating pain of what
Obama pontificates as the least of these..o that's right, he couldn't it was above his pay grade. Allowing babies that survive abortion
is an equally dispicable form of torture.
You, sir are beneath contempt just like that maggot Obama feeding on the bodies of 50 million AMERICAN babies sacrificed on the Feminazi altar.

Hal Condemns His Comrads - Outright
Hal Donahue as to the USA being a torture state, "Yes we are. Bush the torturer admits ordering the waterboarding (torture by our own definition until GW) of at least three individuals and the state department admits that over 30 individuals died while undergoing enhanced interrogation. Facts"

As with Kerry and Murtha before you, you seem over-eager to trash your comrads. For them and, apparently, for you, too, Semper Fi does not include giving your comrads the benefit of a doubt. For you, of course, "enhanced interrogation" and any such claim is, indeed, torture. Nice.

Playing politics with your comrads' honor taints you, more than them.

I am not so easily swayed. America is not a "torture state".

Hal Confirms His Snobbery
Hal Donahue offers as to Mac Moore calling him an intellectual elite, "LMAO oh thank you I sent this to all my friends LMAO "I am now part of the "Intellectual Elites" LMAO get real LOL but thank you for the laugh"

I think that your friends already know that you are part of the prententiously titled "intellectually elite". Laughing "at" others, instead of "with" is a signature trait of the Intellectually Elite. You pretend to do this, a lot. My guess is that your friends already know this about you. No need to prove it to them.

Halbarockbindoofus
Hal stirring the pot for your self pleasure just shows what a small minded pathetic little man that you are,and rarely have you ever spoke of anything that leaves us with any signs of intelligence but i guess with one hand in your pocket while you type it gets you excited to the point of......oops its dead down there to.

6:1
True, but what the loser (jude) didn't point out is that the actual numbers for total individual donations are:

hussein = 134

McCain = 26

Historically active duty military personel have donated at a larger percentage to Republicans (but not by much), however when it comes time to vote admp run 4:1 for conservatives (vets in both cases, donations/votes, at an even greater rate).

This is truely a non-issue...as a vet (rvn to 1st gw) and currently employed by the VA, I also have yet to run across this obomination ground swell amongst the troops.

I believe the issue is just mental mastrubation as the left's adjustment to their medication begins to take place.

ugly kid joe: And you're taking jude's

stats as fact???

As I corrected ol' hal donahooey, those stats are NOT VERIFIABLE! We went through this before when the ron paulbots tried the same thing...

Nonsense!




the smell test.
If we can accomplish our mission without mercenaries, as Tinsldr2 claims, then why are the mercenaries still there?

Doesn't pass the smell test.

And Tinsldr2 has every right to have an opinion on the mission, but there are Iraq veterans who have a completely different take on the mission than Tinsldr2's.

jerabaub: hal donahooey is NOT an Iraq

veteran.

But then, you would just automatically NOT believe anyone who is a patriot.




jerabaub not very bright
jerabaub is not smart enough to understand what I wrote on mercenaries. There are NO mercenaries in Iraq doing combat missions. Show me any competent source that states otherwise. Unless you consider US military personel and our allies mercs.

any 'mercenaries' were hired by the State department to provide security for state department people and some Iraqis initially which was not in the mission statement for the US Army.
now because it is a dangerous place ( but becomming less dangerous ) the security forces have had engagements with locals. but they are not part of the military and do not have a military mission.

So i stand by my point which is the MILITARY is doing fine in OUR MISSION without mercenaries.

Hal and Mercenaries
Hal,
You have a believable source for that claim? And do you have a definition for who is a mercenary? For example the Blackwater security personnel might meet a definition of mercenary however they are NOT doing combat missions and do not exceed US troops in Iraq, that claim is absurd.

Do you consider all civilians working for the US Mercenaries? What about the Sons of Iraq where the locals patrol their own neighborhoods?

Is the retired soldier who is over there as a contractor and who sits in the Division headquarters and runs the classified web server, (site design, administrative patches, anti-virus) or the foreign nationals such as the lady who works in the Morale building making sure it is clean, the laundry personnel or the cooks? What about the workers in the Burger King, Pizza Inn and Green bean Coffee?

Definition of mercenaries “mer•ce•nar•ies
1. One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.
2. A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army.
From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mercenary

Sure we pay good money, especially by foreign standards to those who clean the toilets on base over there but lets not somehow infer that they are “professional Soldiers” or that we couldn’t do our job without them.
Oh and on unit readiness rates I can’t speak obviously (security), but I am in the same Division I deployed with, and we are better trained for a deployment now then pre-2003 with the number of multiple combat tour veterans on the staff and our technology is far superior to what we had in 2003, but after every deployment there is a period of equipment reset (deep cleaning –repair-replace-upgrade)that requires some time and as many returnees left and replacements came in (most with experience)an upcoming training exercise to iron out working together is needed before we would be a 100% combat effective but that doesn’t mean we couldn’t be out the door quickly if needed.

Tinsldr2 even dumber than Jerabaub
You did not refute my point.

My point was since mercenaries perform no socalled combat "missions", we can dispense with them.

But you and I both know that if mercenaries were not there, U.S. armed forces would be required to do what they had been doing.

And that would entail lots more troops.

This is a chickens**t way for Bush to get around the draft.

Let him for once in his life be honest and say to the American people: "Look, we "supposedly" are in a civilizational struggle with an ideology that wants to return the world to the 7th century, and I am calling on all Americans to do their part in preserving our civilization".

That would be better than Bush saying Americans can do their part on this civilizational war by "going shopping", and leaving the fight to a relatively small amount of people who are constantly called on for repeated deployments.


you have no point jerabaub
Why do you think someone doing non-combat duties can be dispensed with. And why would we want to?

In the OLD OLD Army there were laundry and bath units and a soldiers actual Job could be to run a washing machine. Also Soldiers were taken away from duties they were trained to do to help peel potatoes and scrub pots. Today those duties are all contracted out so Soldiers can be Soldiers. Its a large part of why our Army is better today. (I say Army cause I can't speak for other services but think it is much the same there).

Also many jobs can be done more effectively and cost efficiently by civilians. I went to the Dentist today on FT Stewart GA. The last dentist i saw here was a retired military dentist but today I had an active duty guy. The dental assistant however, was a very nice lady that was almost 60 years old.

Would you really call this 60 year old lady a mercenary?

Now the Army has dental assistants in uniform and there were some in the clinic but most are civilian because it is cost effective to keep them that way the same way it is cost effective to have most of the cooks both here in the states and overseas civilians with military supervisors.

is this a way for the President to get around the Draft? Why did Pres Clinton do the same thing in Bosnia and Kosovo? Pres Clinton hired civilian contractors from haliburton to run the base functions including cooking, laundry and some security jobs etc.

The point is not that we need a draft its that the Army has "transformed". When we need to drive in and take terrain like we did in Bosnia in 96, or Iraq in 2003 the fight is almost all military at the forward lines. Once we establish camps of any semi-permanence we bring up the comfort providers.

Your point of needing a draft is refuted by the simple fct that we are BETTER now then when we had a draft and civilains are combat enablers for us.

Jerabaub, most casual readers...
...of this thread got tinsldr2's point about mercenaries. We get it.
I fail to see the connection with the draft. The Blackwater personnel over there are eager volunteers, and offer a good blend of expertise and availability that makes them an excellent solution on those non-combat requirements. The jobs are risky, but pay well, and they are not short of applicants.

reply to exF14Pilot
A friend of mine in the Army has just come off his third deployment in Iraq, and, according to him, the contract employees are absolutely necessary because there just aren't enough military folks to perform all the tasks that need doing. He thinks all the yapping about "mercenaries" is a lot of liberal cr*p.

Tinsldr2
Are you suggesting that because Clinton did not favor the draft, Bush is right to follow his lead?

I never thought you Bush idolizers would ever own up to the possibility Bush would copy Clinton on anything.

You have not addressed my fundamental point.

If private contractors are not necessary to the mission, withdraw them.

Pure and simple.

But we know what would happen.

The military would have to do what the contractors are doing.

Contractors do all sorts of things, from repairing equipment, maintenance, food service, translators.

A poster above makes my point(Gestell).

He admits contract employees are absolutely necessary because there aren't enough military folks to perform the tasks.

If your own defenders are making my point, what more can I say?

Jerabaub you still have no point
jerabaub you say "If private contractors are not necessary to the mission, withdraw them." ??

I have never said that PVT contractors are not necessary to the mission. I said they are part of the way the military operates. I never said we should bring them home that makes absolutly no sense. Again what is your point?

No sane person that understands the current Army and Politics favors a draft. That includes Pres Bush, pres Clinton, Gen Petreaus and me! You are the one seemingly advocating a draft.

What I said is Blackwater is not doing the Army's Mission. They are doing a Pvt security firms mission. There are no contractors driving tanks, setting up checkpoints, establishing joint patrol bases with the Iraqis etc.

Again there are thousands of contractors on my base back here at FT Stewart should we fire them? Why would we? What is your point? the 60 year old that was my dental assistant today has worked on post here since 1983!

You say yer fundamental point is to withdraw contractors that are not needed but that is a ridiculous point. Why would we want to? We structured the Army specifically to HAVE contractors clean latrines and cook so we can do SOLDIER things. they have done these things for us in every conflict of the last 25 years if not longer.

And as for Bush copying Clinton well You could just as well say Clinton Copied the previous Bush who used Haliburton in Somalia. but of course they also built roads in Viet Nam. The point was not who copied whom but that use of haliburton and civilian contractors is not a "new bush idea" nor a hidden draft.

Again I never once advocated bringing contractors home only you did. But then you advocate (or in other posts advocated) bringing EVERYONE home in a cowardly retreat.



6:1, Anne wrote:
Subject: ugly kid joe:

"And you're taking jude's stats as fact???....Nonsense!"

My mistake for starting off my response with "True", the fact is I don't believe nor disbelieve Jude. I searched the net for her possible resource(s) and I came up with this

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/08/troops-deployed-abr oad-give-61.html

which is where I got the #'s from. Don't know (nor care to know) anything about the site and it's truthfulness. As I stated in my response my personal experience paints a completely different picture ;)


troops in Iraq and contributions
To joe and anne et al

there are about 144,000 troops in Iraq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq#Mo re_than_100.2C000_military_personnel

134 gave contributions to Sen Obama according to the website cited, that is less the 1/100th of a percent. It really shows the way troops over there lean politically right?
ROFL
Tinsldr2

Tinsldr2
my point exactly

Tepid reception?
Please, tepid reception?

I guess that's why Obama and Ron Paul get the most campaign contributions from veterans.

They know that in those two cases, their lives will get put on the line for U.S. national security interests, not wasted because of a bunch of neocon ideolougues.

military support for the Obamessiah?
How does any soldier worth his salt buy the Barack Hussein Obaloney after this uber-charlatan has been so blatantly invested in American defeat in the Middle East?
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