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Wednesday, August 27, 2008
Nathan Tabor :: Townhall.com Columnist
Protecting the Unborn: A Step-By-Step Approach
by Nathan Tabor
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Saddleback taught us an important lesson: presumptive Republican nominee John McCain says he knows when life begins. Democratic Presidential heir apparent Barack Obama does not.

But Obama’s agnosticism on the question of the beginning of life is actually nothing knew. In 1973, in the era before 4-D ultrasounds made their way into the lives of ordinary American couples, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to specify when life began in the historic case known as Roe v. Wade. In fact, when read with its companion case, Doe v. Bolton, Roe allowed for abortion to take place during all nine-months of pregnancy. That’s why abortionists were able to get away with the heinous practice of partial-birth abortion.

Nevertheless, the High Court has allowed for certain restrictions on abortion: parental consent, 24-hour waiting periods, requirements that women be told of the risks of abortion and alternatives to it. The Freedom of Choice Act, which Obama has co-sponsored, would wipe out such restrictions, leading to an even more permissive policy where abortion is concerned.

I would like to make the case that if unborn life were strictly defined in the law, our courts would be required to protect, rather than devalue, unborn children. That’s why I recommend passing state laws which would categorize the unlawful killing of unborn babies as murder. After that, legal protection could be extended to unborn boys and girls whose lives are snuffed out in abortion facilities.

There is something of a legal precedent for this. A few years back, Congress passed and President George W. Bush signed into law the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, also known as Laci and Conner’s Law. Under this landmark legislation, anyone who attacks a pregnant mother and “intentionally kills or attempts to kill the unborn child…shall be punished…for intentionally killing or attempting to kill a human being.”

While this was an important step forward, this 2004 law applies only to federal cases or those who commit such a crime in the course of violating a federal law. Since most crimes are matters of state law, similar legislation needs to be passed at the state level. Fortunately, a number of states have already done this—the unlawful killing of unborn babies is classified as homicide in 36 states.

However, in other states, while injury to a pregnant woman may be a crime, the killing of unborn children is not considered a separate offense. The tragedy of such a schizophrenic policy has become painfully obvious in North Carolina. There, Lance Corporal Maria Lauterbach, a Marine stationed at Camp Lejeune, was viciously assaulted and killed while pregnant. Since there are no laws in North Carolina which equate the killing of a fetus to murder, authorities have brought no charges with regard to the death of Lauterbach’s unborn child.

In order to win full legal protection for the unborn, we need broad consensus. Such consensus already exists with regard to fetal homicide laws. The laws have been passed in three dozen states—and not one has been successfully challenged in court. In this context, fetal homicide laws could open the door to other laws that would provide protection to unborn children.

As Douglas Johnson, legislative director for National Right to Life, has stated, “It seems (abortion advocates’) greatest fear is not of what the (fetal homicide) bill actually does legally, but of how it might encourage people to think about the unborn child.”

Conner Peterson, Laci Peterson’s unborn son, became a person in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of the American people through the passage of the Unborn Victims of Violence Act. No matter how abortion advocates might try to re-frame the debate, Conner passed through the prism of public consciousness to become more than just a “blob of tissue.” He had a name—therefore, he had existed, and his young life had been brought to a tragic end. And the law justly recognizes that fact.

This is how the fight against abortion must be waged: one step at a time. Incrementalism can try our patience, but it can also be quite effective. As the fight against slavery was fought in stages, so too the battle for civil rights protection for unborn children must be played out on one front at a time.

Once feticide has been outlawed throughout the U.S., pro-life advocates can move onto the next step. Each small victory wins more respect for unborn children, and hastens the day when they finally will be accorded equal rights under the law.

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About The Author
Nathan Tabor organizes and educates Christians on their role in Politics.
 
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The abortion elephant in the room
This raging debate that makes politicians lie through their teeth daily (mostly dims) is beyond belief.

The facts:
The federal government should not even be in the business other than making it a crime to kill an unborn child by anyone including doctors if after three months. No money to any woman's group unless its to counsel against murder and the impact on her psyche or health for the child and mother until born.

There is less of a stigma on being unmarried and pregnant than years past when abortion required a back room pseudo-doctor and dirty equipment and cash.

In addition any doctor that performs abortions will ever be completely denied the ability to do so unless we completely reverse existing law which will never happen. But if voters will make it known that legal technicalities are no excuse for allowing born babies to die this will change. Snake oil salesmen like Obama must be called on it and defeated.




Why third parties are wrong
If there is a fundamental shift of opinion. For example, if the GOP abandoned being Pro Life, a large contingent of Pro Life people would bolt, that is a deal breaker for them. The GOP was formed over disputes on the slavery issue.

Now for some people, any compromise on illegal immigration is a deal breaker. Pasadena PUMA and Virginia Patriot are perfect examples. They have openly left the GOP and will support third party candidates. Illegal immigration is an important issue, but it is not the same as being Pro Life or the older Slavery issue. But these strong views on that one issue are a tiny minority (hence the reason Duncan Hunter, who is a good man, went no wheres in the primaries and nutjobs like Tancredo completely cratered).

But for most of us, even if we disagree with the GOP and McCain on immigration issues, we recognize the Dems are even worse on those issues, and worse on a whole lot more issues (national security, defense, engergy, taxes, pro life, judges, etc.). For most of us, it is not worth trying to back a failed former GOP congressman's bid in the Libertarian Party when that will only help elect Barack Obama. This is what those Green Party supporters found out when they managed to elect George Bush by supporting Ralph Nader.

So if you want to join spoilers Virgina Patriot and Pasadena PUMA and help elect Barack Obama--at least be honest on what you are doing. You think the best way to reform the GOP is to throw an election. The dream of an uber conservative third party is a pipe dream too, because if one existed it would just be a Balkanized minority, unable to beat the Democrats. What you would have acheived is Democratic Majorities for ever.

That is why the plan is flawed. If you want to reform the GOP, do it at the grass roots level with local, state and national politicians.

Bravo, Joe in MO


You've written a stupendous post.

We need many more contributors like you here.

Thanks!

good post, indiconantidm

In fact, as a Catholic I only disagree the OK clause up to 3 month is still murder. But,--

Yesterday by way of explaining the Catholic Church's teaching, I made another point --(on a different forum.) There is NO latitude for abortion on account of an unwanted pregnancy by incest and rape, as the Church expressly teaches. NOT even incest!

I stated that, and saw it posted; but about 15 minutes later it was pulled by their moderator. Censored, likely as an extremist POV! Somebody must have objected. FINE; it's still the authorized teaching of the Church. I will always support it.

Because, without any possibility of a dispute, the offspring of EVERY pregnant woman is totally innocent. There can be no justification for killing him/her. We will always have adoption as an alternative to keeping such babies.

Lincoln's Incrementalism
Lincoln, too, knew the wisdom of a step-by-step approach.

Questions remain, however, whether the Civil War was actually necessary. Approximately 600,000 dead.

Yet, this is nothing compared to the millions killed in the womb around the world every year.
I admired Steve Forbes's incremental approach to eventually outlawing abortion. I admire this article which challenges our Culture of Death. Unfortunately, Obama actually represents this ugly, immoral and decadent culture we live in.

Our Holy Father
One reason our Holy Father and President Bush get along so well, in spite of disagreements over war issues, is their like-mindedness on Life Issues. Early in his Presidency, August of 2001 in fact, Bush took a stand for Life.

dreadnaught 1 for 2
Rape etc... are unacceptable reasons for abortion. Two wrongs don't make a right etc.... Good post.


Regarding Joe's post, not so much. Joe and company should save the guilt trip for those that fall victim to their own prohibitive conscience. My third party vote wont elect Obama anymore than disgruntled Hillary bots elect McCain with their third party votes.

morality
It is obvious why this issue is making such hay, to get McCain elected. The rest of the time its we must torture people, even as Cheyne says if there is 1% chance they could be harmful. One can't start wars for oil and torture people and then turn around and say they have morals about something els.

Only Two ISSUES!
There are only two issues that are important to the U.S.A. at this moment of eternity.

Abortion
The World War Against Radical Islam

Brain dead liberals like Taft do not have a clue what the real issues are. Of course those idiots do not even realize that this war was started over 1000 years ago. Neither do they realize that their boy Bill [Hillary's BoyToy] is the one who signed the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998 into law. But then they think it is wrong to execute mass murderers. If you are a true unthinking no nuthin [that means Liberal in case you don't know] bad is good, and good is bad.

I was an extreme Lib for the middle third of my life and was absolutely for abortion. So much so that I permitted one on my own child. Now I live with that crime against another human being.

You are and ignorant unthinking self obsessed liberal who is only out for ME if you favor ANY abortion.

But I know from more personal experience that probably almost anyone that reads TH that Liberals are only out for SELF. That baby was interfering with my party life.

"our bodies our selves" is a LIE.

Oh and Taft you and those like you are IDIOTS! CLUELESS! GUTLESS!

Keep talking B.O. so everyone except those w/o brains will see you for the fraud you are.

Recovering Liberal

idiots
This is how your freedom will be taken away; one step at a time.

Dreadnaught
I'm not Catholic, however I agree with the Churches teaching on the so called 'hard' cases.

The life of the mother argument is specious since modern medicine has been able to treat
mothers with serious illnesses and bring them
to the point where the baby has a chance to
survive outside the womb.
I'm the survivor of a life threatening birth,
my son was too big and I hemorhagged. I know
that if the dr. had said I'd not survive the birth and recommended an abortion when he
realized how big my son was (I'm under 5 ft. and he was 10 pounds) I'd have refused. I
had to have an emergency C section and woke up in ICU..my son would have been severely injured
or dead if he'd been born naturally.

I have a friend who was a rape victim, she kept her baby til her mother became ill so she adopted the little 18 mo.old girl out.

I know a family whose mother was the product of incest..these kids have been assets to our
society..a teacher, lawyer, salesman, minister.

I pray for the day that we will accept that
only God can take a life and that life begins at conception, not some arbitrary date a few months later.

I should
add that my friend started a ministry for rape/incest victims. She discovered that the women who were aborted because of rape/incest had a difficult time healing than did the ones who carried their babies.
The pro aborts won't dicuss the havoc abortion has on the health and spirits of the women they coerce into taking advantage of their
penumbra..I mean Constitutional right.

$ in TX:
Freedom comes with responsibility. Abortion buys your freedom at the price of another's death.

This is the essence of abortion: We kill tiny, defenseless human beings because we can - we're bigger and stronger than they are, and they are in the way of the life we want to live. It's us or them, and we unilaterally choose us.

That's not freedom; that's barbarism.

$
What freedom are you talking about.

Since I am probably an expert compared to you, answer the question in something which at least gives the impression that your "brain" provides enough power to your fingers.

The freedom to kill children! What the H... is it with Libs that they want muslims to blow my 13 year old at the Mall. And, murdering nurses and doctors to kill children in the womb?

Do you mean the freedom to go sleep with anyone and then murder the product of your lust.

"MY BODY, MY CHOICE" is a lie straight from hell. So, what freedom are you talking about?

To show how confused they really are idiots like B.O. say they do not know when life begins."

"above my pay grade"----moron

I know exactly when my life began! It began 33 quintillion, trillion, billion years ago as a twinkle in God's eye.

Recovering Liberal


$
Freedom and law are a balancing act. Total freedom without laws quickly becomes chaos and thus real freedom becomes ensnared.

Imagine no traffic laws where people had the freedom to drive without regard of speed or stop signs or traffic direction, etc... chaos ensues. Freedom to drive as one pleases suddenly gets ensnared in every one elses freedom to drive as they please, and thus few truly have freedom to drive because of traffic accidents and basically fear.

In the same way, women wishing freedom to have abortions do so without regard to their babies freedom. Thus the freedom of the baby is ensnared by the mother's supposed freedom to abort. There is no balance here. The freedom favors the mother over the baby and organized legal abortion is one step closer to chaos then a more balanced approach where mother and baby both have equal freedom of life.

The liberal so-called sexual revolution
has produced a holocaust of abortions: 40,000,000 in 35 years. The figure rivals the dead of the world wars.

In the minority communities, the liberal sexual revolution has produced 70% illegitimacy, 43% of young black women who will never marry, and approximately 75,000,000 abortions a year. Whadda an accomplishment, and for this, the left blames the right (they aren't Rep. ideas) and tries to shovel white guilt on people's dislike of Obamassiah.


Intentionally Ignorant ??
Jayhawk:
Are you being intentionally ignorant, or were you just born that way. Either way, by virtue of the lack of intelligence within your two ridiculous comments above, it's pretty evident that you're a Democrat - hence, both of the above apply.

dear tea cup in WI


You know um kidding, Tea Party--

I love your posts, lady. I can tell you have CLASS.

In the interval I happened to remember what happened to the great Sean Hannity; "You're a great American!"

He frequently touted his own Catholic faith on his shows. Along the way he would harangue the abortion lobby, as a good conservative. Trouble was; he wasn't much more than a cafeteria Catholic. He would pontificate how only exceptions to abortions are for pregnancies resulting from incest & rape. Many of his fans wrote in, telling him NO, you're allowing for the deaths of thousands of innocents! But he never let up.

Later a Catholic priest confronted him on the TV show; and warned him he could NOT receive Holy Communion, pushing ideas like that.

Sean was shocked and angry.

So now he justs says "I'm a Christian." He seems to have abandoned his Catholic faith and gone free-lance Christian. Some folks are beyond correction. It's always their way or the highway.

I wish he could see your post here today.

Thanks, Tea Party! You may not be a Catholic. But you have your head on right.

Mother Teresa said it best...
While she was alive, Mother Teresa of Calcutta delivered the most startling and bold proclamation of truth to power. Before an audience of 3,000 - that included President Clinton and Hillary, Al Gore and Tipper as well as several congressional leaders - the then 83-year old nun, who was physically frail but spiritually and rhetorically powerful, delivered an address that cut to the heart of the social ills afflicting America.

She said that America, once known for generosity to the world, has become selfish. And she said that the greatest proof of that selfishness is abortion. Tying abortion to growing violence and murder in the streets, she said, 'If we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill each other? . . . Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want.'

At that line, most of those in attendance erupted in a standing ovation, something that rarely occurs at these sedate events. At that moment, President Clinton quickly reached for his water glass, and Mrs. Clinton and Vice President and Mrs. Gore stared without expression at Mother Teresa. They did not applaud. It was clearly an uncomfortable moment on the dais.

(continued)

Mother Teresa said it best...
(continued)
She then delivered the knockout punch: 'Many people are very, very concerned with children in India, with the children of Africa where quite a few die of hunger, and so on. Many people are also concerned about all the violence in this great country of the United States. 'These concerns are very good. But often these same people are not concerned with the millions who are being killed by the deliberate decision of their own mothers. And this is what is the greatest destroyer of peace today - abortion, which brings people to such blindness.'

What? Abortion destroys peace and causes blindness toward the sick, the hungry and the naked? Abortion leads to wars between nations? Of course it does, if life is regarded so lightly and its disposal becomes so trivial, so clinical and so easy. Why should people or nations regard human life as noble or dignified if abortion flourishes? Why agonize about indiscriminate death in Bosnia when babies are being killed far more efficiently and out of the sight of television cameras?

Mother Teresa delivered her address without rhetorical flourishes. She never raised her voice or pounded the lectern. Her power was in her words and the selfless life she has led. Even President Clinton, in his remarks that followed, acknowledged she was beyond criticism because of the life she has lived in service to others.

At the end, she pleaded for pregnant women who don't want their children to give them to her: 'I am willing to accept any child who would be aborted and to give that child to a married couple who will love the child and be loved by the child.' She said she has placed over 3,000 children in adoptive homes from her Calcutta headquarters alone. She has answered the question, 'Who will care for all of these babies if abortion is again outlawed?' Now the question is whether a woman contemplating abortion wishes to be selfish or selfless, to take life or to give life.”

Wow.

I cannot believe this column has been up all day long and has only racked up 23 posts so far. Usually the social cons are swarming all over these "protecting the unborn" columns like flies on....hmmm. Like flies on...(trying to clean it up)....well, you get my drift.


Maybe the regular TH social cons are watching the DNC?

Abortions And The Law
The sixties 'free love society'led to many unwanted pregnancies. Birth control was not as prolific as was the free love.The answer was abortion on demand.

The killing will not stop until hearts are changed. If you do not believe in God,A Higher Power,ending a life can be trivial. If you are a believer,you know God knew them before they were formed in the womb.The Bible says so.

If a law was passed tomorrow,abortion would not end. It will end when and if morality,modesty and shame returns to our country and people realize that it is wrong. I don't have hope that it will happen. I wish it would.



Rowly
I've come to conclusion that we are going to get a return to morality until we get Revival.
I have begun to speculate that, in a reverse of The Great Awakening preceeding American Revolution Part 1, we may not get Revival until we begin to Wage Revolution (part 3).

I still want my Government to establish the age of Humanity by Law as quickly as possible. I'm willing to accept some lesser standard, such as heartbeat or brain wave, than conception for purposes of Constitutional Law, but there is NO doubt that a Human being, even in the womb HAS INALIENABLE Constitutional Rights. I want THAT Law NOW, even if it doesn't stop Abortion.

The Big Mick

PerBert! Aka Ranger Bob 29
Ah PerB, your maskarovna as a "Naval Aviator" gets thin when you whine about all the "Iraqis who did nothing to us". Bull Halsey you ain't, Mr. Moronic Mythical Middle Moderate Commiequeer masquerading as a McHo.
So, you agree with Mac the Knife that life begins at conception? Think he should appoint some Scalias to reverse Row V Wade? Wouldn't that be "majority by consensus"?
Say, did McShame support the "majority consensus" when he pushed Shamnesty in opposition to 70%+ of the American People? Where are you in THAT Consensus, perB? How about the "majority consensus" against YQueer Marriage, perB, you agin that? The majority consensus is that we are winning and SHOULD be winning in Iraq--where are you in THAT "majority consensus",perB? 70% of America says Drill Now Drill everywhere, perB, McAin't came LaTE to THAT "majority consensus".
Was there a "majority consensus" on McFeingeld, or Cap and Trade? I thought what you liked best about your B&D Love "Master and Commander" was he was a MAVERICK, an ANTI-Consensus guy?

And how EXACTLY was the Gang 14 a "majority consensus"? The votes were there to LET the MAJORITY vote on Judges and Mac the Knife TORPEDOED it IN FAVOR of Rule by Fillabuster by the MINORITY! Rather than OVERULE the rule by minority, McAin't CAVED to it, simply allowing prior restraint by a mere 14 NON Consensus Senators. So much for "majority consensus".
You fulla sheite, perB.

The Big Mick

Ranger29
I won't tell you what you reek of. It would be banned like you are every night.

You have your opinions.I have mine.You don't know how I feel about Iraq. You presume to,but you do not.

You presume a lot about people you know nothing about.It is not your job to criticize me or anyone else.

I don't have to reach a consensus with anyone. I am a consensus of one. I believe abortion is murder and if I am the only one who believes it,so be it.

If most Americans believe in abortion,then they are wrong,not me.


Ranger29
If the body politic believes in abortion,they will eventually be flushed,literally,including you.

'People like you'.There you go again. Presuming to know something about me. You do not. Say goodnight ,Robert

Ranger29
You and wendy make a good pair. You deserve each other. You will have a lot to talk about as the dead babies pile up.

the big mickey mouse


See his last post. There is why I called him Seabscuit @ss (without the speed.)

He maintains we'll be given Liebermann for VP by John Mccain; totally off the wall.

We don't need a horse's @ss to tell us who we're voting for. Big Mick so-called (probably a runt) lost any credibility he may have had today. Go for the long walk off a short pier, HORSE BUTT.

Abortion Solution
If pregnant girls had to run a gauntlet of Pro-Lifers fighting for the rights to adopt their baby and pay their medical bills there would be few abortions.

Let's go ahead and criminalize birth control and masturbation and install cameras in restrooms and bedrooms for enforcement.

I am sure the president has the power and the Court would back him up. Mmmm, do we really want Obama to have all those powers we granted to W?

Jose

words for wendy the warthog
please desist with the gibberish about fetus, life or rights. You aren't an authorized judge of those problems; just a dingbat with delusions of grandeur.

When Toon Hall needs off-beat comedy we'll ask Robin Williams. You're small fry. Your brain is only the sh!t mark on an embryo's thumbnail.

Wendy, Taft, Robert, Josh
What are bunch of reprobates. Even your narrow little minds understand that science proves beyond a doubt that a "fetus" is alive and so does common sense. Your ridiculous answers only show what utterly comtemptible neantherthals you really are. Rest assured, justice will be served if not in this life, then certainly the next. Hopefully, you will stop deceiving yourself and face the ugly truths about yourselves before that happens.

Wendy
"A fetus is not a human being. It is a potential human being, not an actual one. As such, it has no rights."

A terrorist is not a human being. It is a former human being that has lost it's soul. As such, it has no rights.

or is it 35 years?
Oh well, their tiny minority isn't going to change anything any way. Maybe in another 35 years ...

40 Million since Roe vs. Wade
Hitler 12 Million,Stalin 20 Million and Roe vs. Wade responsible for 40 Million deaths of the unborn and the newly born. What responsibility do the SS,KGB and Democrats have in these 72 Million deaths ?

The law
I think the law should mandate that all women who are planning to have a child should be told of the alternative of abortion.

Chris
Ad hominem attacks only undermine your own credibility.

dreadnaught
Ad hominem attacks only undermine your own credibility.

Dreamer and Wendy
"A fetus is not a human being, it is a potential human being."

Yeah, been there thought that.

It was going to cramp my party life so I said:"Get rid of it."

There are no words low enough or vulgar enough to describe me then, or you today.

" A fetus is not a human being, it is a potential human being." Yeah, the same will eventually be said about people like you. Only then it may be too late.

I can say from profound experience that you have lost your ability to think clearly. As if you care. You do not get it and unless you are lucky like me, you probably never will.

Either begin to think, or lose your humanity.

Nothing on this earth compares to a mother or father killing their own child.

I really & truly feel sorry for people like you who are blind to the obvious. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!

Recovering Liberal

Right to Life
I must respond to Wendy Reply 34. A fetus is a parasite of the mother thereby enslaving the mother? Now I've heard everything. I thought I had heard about every excuse for abortion there was but this one tops them all. So if an unborn baby is enslaving the mother and slavery was made illegal by the 13th Amendment to the Constitution then we should make getting pregnant and giving birth illegal for all. No more births for anyone. Of course the human race would die out but thats just the price to pay for freedom. I know this sounds ludicrous but that is where your logic leads. Of course most women do not equate childbearing with slavery at all, look upon it as a joyous event, and think it an honor to carry the unborn child for nine months.

Also I wish the libs like Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama would just come clean and admit that they think killing an unborn child for convenience is ok and not hem and haw about when life begins. At least I would respect them for their candidness. Of course if you libs admitted that most of what you believe is based on selfish looking out for number one and to heck with anyone else your support would be lower than the bottom of the ocean.

'Advocate For Death Certificates'

When a Baby is alive and detached from the birth 'mother' it is a Citizen of the United States of America.

A 'Death Certificate' should be issued that includes:
1) Time of death.
2) Cause of Death.

The baby is NO longer a piece of tissue (as some say) but a living breathing Citizen of the United States of America. A 'Death Certificate' leaves a trail of information that can be used to bring charges in both civil and legal proceedings.

When a baby is left alone to die without medical aid or is at that point killed by other means, then all involved should answer to someone.

The key to stopping this heinous act and exposing these brutal murdering Doctors - is making them issue a 'Death Certificate'.

If a baby is left to die, a witness or other concerned parties could start an investigation as to where and when the 'Death Certificate' was issued.

The failure of a physician to immediately submit the required form to the government (to trigger issuance of the death certificate) is often both a crime and cause for loss of one's license to practice.

Obama who is a lawyer knows that the 'Death Certificate' is the one thing that cannot be explained away.

Babies that are 'Born Alive' - when human life began is established - when did 'Death' result and why is the question.

Support demanding 'Death Certificates' for ALL born alive babies that are a result of abortions.

Retired Geek

Obamas and Partial Birth Abortions

What kind of principles do the Obamas have? Obama is said to be a 'deeply religious' man.
What deeply held religious conviction is this?
------------------------------------------------
"U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama's wife, Michelle, sent a fund-raising letter with the "alarming news" that 'right-wing politicians' had passed a law stopping doctors from stabbing half-born babies in the neck with scissors, suctioning out their brains and crushing their skulls. Michelle called partial-birth abortion 'a legitimate medical procedure,' and wouldn't supporters please pay $150 to attend a luncheon for her husband, who would fight against 'cynical ploy[s]' to stop it?"

“Whenever we define a pre-viable fetus as a person that is protected by the Equal Protection Clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a 9-month old -- child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it -- it would essentially bar abortions, because the Equal Protection Clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute.” Barack Obama 2002 Illinois

Abortion lies about Medical Emergencies
Lies about Partial Birth Abortion and Dr George Tiller

"Abortion advocates often deflect negative attention by insisting that late-term abortions are in the best interests of the babies that are aborted.

They claim that if the babies are not "terminated", they will live lives scarred by illness.

The truth is that the vast majority of the babies condemned to death by late-term abortion are healthy and capable of living meaningful lives."

"There also exists a common misconception that late-term abortions are limited to medical emergencies.

Nothing could be further from the truth. From 1998 until 2000, only one out of the 1168 abortions that Tiller performed after viability was done during a medical emergency.

Upwards of 97% of his late-term patients weren't even from Kansas—they flew in from other states to have abortions that they had scheduled in advance."

http://www.kdhe.state.ks.us/hci/absumm.html.

http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/02/links_to_barack. html

Abortion Apologists
Those who are pro-abortion really have no defense for their barbaric behavior. No matter why abortion is suggested,there is no reason to do it.

Over one million dead babies every year for decades. Cause of death: Murder. Reasons for the murder: Convenience sake.

Euthanasia is the next step.When Government owns the health care system and there is not enough medical workers or money,the nursing homes will be the next target.

It is inconvenient to keep the people alive when they are lingering in a 'holding tank' waiting to die. They are too old or sick to ever be productive,so they are useless.

Think it won't happen? Think again. Would ANYONE, several years ago,have dreamed that the government would not only allow,but would subsidize slaughterhouses to kill the unborn citizens who are defensless?

Make all the excuses you desire,murderers,that does not make it right. It only makes you guilty of murder. Can anything be worse than coldblooded murder?

Children=property
REALITY: if society actually cared about the welfare of children both unborn & born, it might start by removing the “implied” legal standard that children are the sole “property” of their biological mothers from conception to legal adulthood. To begin with, the “virtuous” gender unilaterally exercises its "reproductive rights" 1.4M (30% of children conceived) times annually (w/o considering the corresponding responsibilities)by aborting, committing infanticide, & outright abandoning their children for purely capricious & arbitrary reasons. Additionally, American women bring about over 70% of divorce actions (the “No-Fault” Divorce legal movement was started by the National Association of Women Lawyers in 1960), have children out of wedlock at least 37% of the time, and are invariably “entitled” to subsidized housing, welfare, food stamps, child custody, child support, alimony, etc. Their near monopoly (over 90%) with respect to child custody results in women committing the majority of all cases of child abuse & neglect. Non-biological partners are more likely to commit abuse than the biological father. It would seem, in the absence of evidence of abuse, that default shared custody would be in the best interest of the nation’s children. Unfortunately, in this current state of institutionalized Misandry, when all things female are sacrosanct and beyond reproach, maintaining the consequence-free, responsibility-optional lifestyles of irresponsible women children trumps the interests of this nation’s children. They are their mother’s “property” after all. Isn’t gender-feminism wonderful?

"Progressive"?
"A fetus is not a human being. It is a potential human being, not an actual one. As such, it has no rights."

This is the same attitude that was used to justify the Dred Scott decision in the 19th Century. This is the same attitude that was used to justify the extermination of the American Indian in the late 1800's. This attitude was used to justify abuse of Chinese immigrants on the West Coast 100 years ago.

Now it's being used again to justify killing unborn, and even born, children.

And they call themselves "progressive"!

So tell me, Wendy, when DOES a child become a human being? When does it get rights? When is it worthy of protection? Why does a "fetus" have fewer rights than a whale, or a seal, or a snail darter?

dreamer: OK
"Subject: The law
I think the law should mandate that all women who are planning to have a child should be told of the alternative of abortion."

OK. Just to be "monotonous" I will point out a charming dichotomy: “motherhood” has been sanctified to the point where fathers have been relegated to sperm-donors & part-time caretakers at best and ambulatory wallets at worst. Ironically, modern society blithely also allows the same individuals to unilaterally exercise their "reproductive rights" 1.4M times (30% of all children conceived) annually (w/o considering the corresponding responsibilities) by aborting, committing infanticide, & outright abandoning their children for purely capricious & arbitrary reasons. This is perfectly “normal” behavior for the virtuous gender.

Unfortunately, being a student of history prior to Marx & Freidan, I have more faith in the amoral nature of the modern libertine female that kills for convenience than the “sanctity of motherhood” myth.

Additionally, US Society has a pathological fear of holding women accountable for their actions. Irresponsible men are generally punished legally, financially, professionally & socially. In contrast, irresponsible women continue to live responsibility-optional, consequence free lives, e.g., Senator Edwards’ mistress is apparently receiving $15K a month- as if adultry & single-parenthood doesn’t pay. It’s a woman’s world after all.


Obama==PUPPET OF DNC/MARXISTS
The only thing to know about Obama for the moment is this: He is an Empty Suit, With A Very Questionable Backgroud and When It does get Questioned, the MSM and their Propaganda Machine, make sure it is not reported on. Believe nothing you hear on the MSM News or other programs concerning politics.

Obama was Hand Picked By The DNC, their Backers who are every Radical Organization in America, and especially the Labor Unions and Radical Environmentalists, and for Communists the world over.

They know Obama does not possess the Knowledge, Intellect, nor experience in Domestic or International Affairs, beyond Marxist/Mob Chicago style politics. They also know Obama is a Narcissist who loves to see his reflection in the mirror and especially on TV.

So, the DNC, in selecting Obama knew that they had a Know-Nothing Narcissist, who would Read Anything They Put on A Teleprompter, with no regard for what he says as long as he is getting to perform in front of a camera.

They know that if were to become President, that he would support anything he Was Told To Support and would never read any proposals, as he could not understand them even if he read them to begin with.

The Perfect Puppet is Obama. And He Who Pulls The Strings Of the Puppet is Called The Puppet Master. The Puppet Masters of Obama are Liberal Democrat Congressmen and women who promote their perversion agenda, Marxists from Labor Unions, such as the National Association of Mis-Educators (NAE), Abortion Advocates, and every Socialist Nation in the United Nations.
With Obama as President, your freedoms and rights would be vastly curtailed almost immediately, as the Liberal Congress would waste no time in getting every Radical Piece of Legislation passed as soon as is possible, before Americans could even tell what was going on.

This is the most critical election in the History of Our Country.

Roe V. Wade
Even if “Roe vs. Wade” is overturned for being “bad law,” the issue will be transferred to the individual state legislatures as per the US Constitution’s original framers, i.e., 13 different little experiments. Hence, if you’re rabidly Pro-life, you can live in the Dakotas. If you want to employ abortion out of convenience (IAW 96% of the 1.4M annual abortions performed per year) , and feel morally superior for doing so, go live in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts, i.e., a woman-child sleeps around, gets pregnant despite having access to dozen forms of birth control & uses abortion as retro-birth control. They can then wear a Ms. Magazine "I had an abortion" tee-shirt as though killing their child for convenience was some sort of sick feminist right of passage. You know the type.

Additionally, I am continuously appalled by the cognitive dissonance associated w/ the continued sanctification of “single-motherhood” & its subsidization via the welfare-industrial complex, earner-income tax credit, child support, alimony, child-custody monopoly, etc., when a certain gender aborts 30% of all children conceived (1.4M) annually, 96% of which were aborted for personal convenience. Please try and convince me that females are inherently morally superior (e.g., the “nurturing” gender) to their male counterparts.

It was a good day's work
Thanks, forumites.

I am so happy the thread brought forward such harpies as Wendy, Dreamer, et all-- and the representatives of gay pride as well.

If these unlovely people didn't show up to take their lumps, the evils of our day would go on in concealment and as abstract problems. They would be academic.

But actually seeing in cyberprint the words of murderous souls --apologists of criminal excesses; this adds meaning and good will to our counsel. It won't merely disappear into a void. Wendy and Dreamer et al; obviously act here as helpless foils.

Because we have many unseen readers, to be sure. Who knows how many thousands, unregistered, anonymous read the truth here? For every heartless minion of the devil; cheering for the death of innocents; hundreds who can no longer deny, or pretend. They think:

"It's true. Those dying fetuses and infants within the birth channel; they're living human beings who never harmed anyone."

If they had formerly resisted, here they see our words and reflect on their worldly, sorbid thoughts. Denying love and rejecting life. We spoke for the voiceless and defenseless. A good day's work.

abortion
So you would advocate capital punishment for the mother I assume? And the doctor as well?

Greyhawk
You are so right! The left wanted Obama so they could get what they want. The Clintons are not much better but they could not be manipulated like Obama,so they had to be stopped.

Thanks for all your posts.They should be read by all.

Same problem, same solution

Every time I see this subject, I say I will not respond. But then I see the mean and nasty comments from people who just love to see a baby and a mother suffer, either from the abortion, the birth, or the next many years of mistreatment of both parties, by the idiot who is really responsible in the first place.

And don’t bother saying the lady is also responsible, so is the factory who built the bed, and the store who delivered it.

Some claim 40,000,000 abortions in the past 35 years. But remember that is just those who were counted by someone with nothing else to do. It does not include the millions of coat-hanger abortions, bathtub abortions, nor the millions of trash can and toilet abortions, that no one but one person, even knew happened. Remember that abortions have been under way since pregnancies have started.

Now just think of those 40,000,000 in 35 years, that you brag about. Just think of the pain and suffering by those millions of unwanted, and uncared for babies.

And as they grew up, based on the two idiots who were at fault in the first place, they were raised the same way those original idiots had been raised, so many of those 40 million would by now be the new-age idiots who caused many more millions of the pregnancies that would have resulted in abortion.

My bible almost says: “And the Lord God formed the fetus from the seed of man and woman, and breathed into the baby’s nostrils the breath of life, and baby became a living soul.”


Men will never get pregnant, and if anyone else is pregnant, it is none of their business, unless he caused it.

Women have no business screaming about abortion unless they are the one who is pregnant, and they want an abortion.

Well, this could go on and on, but since those who need instruction are not learning anything except more hate for me and the other intelligent posters on TH. I give up for today.


answer to jim in ca
You said it, Jim. Here's a reply:

"40,000,000 abortions in the past 35 years. But remember . . . just those who were counted. It does not include the millions of coat-hanger abortions, bathtub abortions, nor the millions of trash can and toilet abortions,"

Even if you exaggerate the numbers of "coat hangers." MILLIONS of coat hangers? Did they all share 1 or 2 dozen hangers? Or 20 bathtubs?

What you fail to see is the TRUTH. Those coat hangers, bathtubs, etc., killings were murders too.

Those "desperate women" who are so misunderstood-- BY YOU. They were also murdering their own flesh and blood.

Is it better by your logic, to add 40 millions of innocent childen to this holocaust?

Here we are NOT suggesting the giveaway of 40 million shiny new coat hangers! We intend to STOP all abortions. By EDUCATING those women with the actual proofs of their vile selishness and indifference. And YOU, Sir; keep countering that good counsel with your foolish, clueless ideolgy of death.

All procured abortions are murders. Including all the abortions of human history.

Each one was the intentional murder of one innocent, defenseless life.







And, Jim:


Don't give us the stuff about "your Bible."

Obama for Infanticide

The 'Born Alive' baby who has known the closest contact with another human any human can experience - the baby has been inside another human for months.

The baby has kicked, stretched and some even suck their thumbs. Every need has been met by its human host - shelter, nourishment and safety.

Suddenly one day the baby is attacked with chemicals and poisons.

The baby enters a world bent on death and destruction towards its life.

The baby has never seen a butterfly, puppy, pretty colors or things all babies enjoy or had any human say I love you.

The baby enters the world in excruciating pain and the best trained Medical experts in the world refuse the baby any aid - in a hospital - where all facilities are available and the Doctors have sworn to protect all human life - except his.

The baby is thrown on a cold table and left to die in some hidden place.

The baby struggles to breathe because a human is born with the human will to survive. The baby cries and sobs for help - that never comes.

The innocent baby tries to live with every breath and dies alone, abandoned like a used kleenex, never having experienced anything but pain, rejection and hatred.

When the baby finally dies a death of torture and the ultimate rejection any human can receive, it is such a worthless human it doesn't even have a 'Death Certificate' issued that it ever existed.

For a few minutes, hours or days, that baby WAS an American Citizen, that should have received all of the 'Rights and Protections' under law, that any other American Citizen should have.

Michelle and Barack Obama and most Democrats, have done everything humanly possible, to make sure this baby does NOT even receive any pain medication.

Jim...
This is some of what my bible says...

Luk 18:15 And they brought infants to Him also, that He might touch them. But seeing, the disciples rebuked them.
Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them near, saying, Allow the children to come to Me, and do not prevent them. For of such is the kingdom of God.
Luk 18:17 Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child, not at all will enter into it.

Mar 10:13 And they brought children to Him, that He might touch them. But the disciples rebuked those carrying them.
Mar 10:14 But seeing, Jesus was indignant. And He said to them, Allow the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them. For of such is the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:15 Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a child may not enter into it, never.
Mar 10:16 And having taken them in His arms, laying hands on them, He blessed them.

40,000,000 a low head count at best.

just for..oh I don't know, giggles
how about "I knew you BEFORE you were formed in the womb."

then go read the chapter of Matthew. If that doesn't start your brain to perking then nothing will. You are of a reprobate mind.

Jim...
Last paragraph should read

then go read the 7th chapter of Matthew. If that doesn't start your brain to perking then nothing will. You are of a reprobate mind.

U.S. Moral Failure
Violence in the womb increases violence in the world.

Great moral failures of the United States: To have treated people as just property, and to have treated people as just tissue.

We have made some progress in correcting part of these failure; let us correct the remainder.

Sure I'm "Pro-Choice"...
There is always a choice, and that choice should be made before you have sex. (My mother was always a bit more blunt in her wording of the above, I am trying not to offend anyone.) If you decide to have premarital, extra-marital... what ever sex, then that was your choice. Now deal. The sad thing being that there is so often an innocent victim that is the consequence of that choice.

I remember some almost 20 years ago, when I was still in high school and forming my opinions, watching the democrats and deciding I didn't like them. It seemed to me they were the party of "no personal responsibility". Looking back I am amazed at my insight at such a young and inexperienced age, (if only I were still that smart...)

As the mother of almost 6 I can't imagine a fetus not being a person. Even in utero, you can feel different personalities and characteristics. They are who they are long before they show up.

I am against all abortions, unless


Charolette Location: OR
Reply # 2
Date: Aug 28, 2008 - 4:22 PM EST

I have read all of that decades before you were born.
==========
But all of you have forgotten my firm stand on the subject, posted many times:

“I am against all abortions, unless the alternative is worse.”

And that is not my opinion of the alternative, but the pregnant lady’s opinion.

She is the only one whose opinion counts at this point in time, and that includes the alternative of both the baby and the mother, and both physical and mental.

And you always leave out the idiot who is most responsible. I say let’s have a castration for each abortion, that should solve the problem.

The bottom line...
is that you cannot eliminate the liberty of self. It is the woman's choice to carry and birth a child or not. It is the woman who is taking the risk and must decide whether it is what she wants.

jim's wonderful stance


“I am against all abortions, unless the alternative is worse.”

Reply:

First; YOU are not the authority. God has all the wisdom and authority. HE gave us commandments, and murder is forbidden. That makes your stance unimportant.

This is proveable, since you have no truthful way to determine what a WORSE alternative to abortion might be. You would only speculate. God is our Creator. He gives life and He alone can justly take life away.

Reply to DA in Mo


A specious incomplete answer:


"The bottom line...
is that you cannot eliminate the liberty of self."

Wrong. Women are judged guilty all the time of wrong-doing by the courts. Woman are not at liberty to kill anybody. Your argument would give them license to murder an unborn human bring; a defenseless and innocent living being. Their physicians are active in murder for hire.

"It is the woman's choice to carry and birth a child or not."

Reply: That's today's flagrantly immoral law. in truth, they must not be killers of innocent human beings. An immoral law is no real law, but a travesty.

"It is the woman who is taking the risk and must decide whether it is what she wants."

You are the wrong judge. You can't presume such a right, because it's murder you give license to. Taking RISK isn't what this is about.

Taking an innocent LIFE is the subject of these pros and cons.

Try to read what I wrote

dreadnaught Location: CA
Reply # 63
Date: Aug 28, 2008 - 5:53 PM EST
Subject: jim's wonderful stance
--
You didn’t read what I wrote, did you?

“And that is not my opinion of the alternative, but the pregnant lady’s opinion.“

You don’t know how to read do you. Since I will never be pregnant, I will never have to make that decision, and neither will you.

Did you ever notice that neither you, not anyone else who has complained about my opinion, have ever addressed what I say my opinion really is.

You just want to continue your attempt of brain washing, but then you find it disappointing when you find that your cohorts don’t have a brain, or that it already has been washed.

Don’t complain that I don’t agree with you, just try to study what I wrote and then thank me for telling you what is really going on.


DA post 62
"The bottom line...
is that you cannot eliminate the liberty of self. It is the woman's choice to carry and birth a child or not. It is the woman who is taking the risk and must decide whether it is what she wants."


Sure you can. My liberty to beat my kids is limited. My liberty to not pay taxes is limited. Etc. etc. etc. Liberty is limited all the time for moral reasons. The life of an unborn little human seems to be as good a reason as any.

It was the woman's choice to have sex. That is within her liberty. As it stands right now we are trying to be a society that does away with personal resposibibily for our actions. That is what abortion is.

dreadnaught
---Wrong. Women are judged guilty all the time of wrong-doing by the courts---

You are wrong. They retain their rights of self, except when punished to death. Women still cannot be violated against their will, legally. Otherwise, guards could rape and beat others on a whim without fear of reprisal.

---Your argument would give them license to murder an unborn human bring---

It does not matter whether it is a human being. No person can utilize another person’s body in order to maintain their own life. I cannot utilize your heart to keep myself alive if mine is failing or take one of your kidneys if mine have failed.

That said, calling a fetus a ‘human being’ is dubious. It does not fit my definition of a human being or person or citizen or sentient being.

You can make that appeal to emotion time and again, but it will not change the facts that it is your opinion and, since we live in a nation based upon liberty, that you cannot take away a person’s right to self based upon your ideological biases.

---That's today's flagrantly immoral law---

In your opinion…

You probably also think homosexuality is also immoral.

---You can't presume such a right, because it's murder you give license to.---

The murder of what?

A fetus…
A future person…

It is irrelevant. Even a living, sentient person cannot utilize another person’s body to keep him/herself alive.

---Taking RISK isn't what this is about.---

You are not the person to make that judgment. It is up to the individual.

5carbonfootprints
My liberty to beat my kids is limited.---


Beating your children is not liberty or freedom of self. Here are some examples of freedom of self…

Eating fatty or healthy foods
Getting a tattoo
Having surgery
Carrying a child
Exercising
Who you have sex with
Etc.

Your body is your body. If I touch your body in any unwanted form it is battery, simple battery to be exact.

5carbonfootprints
---It was the woman's choice to have sex. That is within her liberty. As it stands right now we are trying to be a society that does away with personal resposibibily for our actions---

This is just plain stupid.

By your logic, I can't have sex with my wife because she might get pregnant. You stay out of my life and my wife's body and I'll stay out of yours.

Da
And you're just plain rude. At least I was polite in my disagreement with you. I happen to think what you wrote was pretty stupid too, but at least I didn't say so.

I am having a hard time telling the difference between battery and killing an unborn child. Murder sure seems worse than battery to me.

Sex with your wife is different, and you know it so, don't give such stupid answers.

offering nothing but more death
We heard from DA, expounding on liberty:

"---Your argument would give them license to murder an unborn human being---" said Dreadnaught,

"It does not matter whether it is a human being. No person can utilize another person’s body in order to maintain their own life. I cannot utilize your heart to keep myself alive if mine is failing or take one of your kidneys if mine have failed."

Said the sly DA.

[No offspring of a mother] can utilize another person’s body in order to maintain their own life."

He/she really said that.

ANOTHER PERSON'S BODY!

The child's mother!

So, what this fiend believes, is that his own mother was only utilized over nine months BY HIM. Just because it tickles his fancy.

The baby would merely be an obstruction and a cost to his mother. --NOT a son.

I used to think these humanoids had a heart just like mine. I see now, theirs is the heart of Satan. They are true minions of the Evil One.

He unwittingly shows dishonesty and self- doubt when he maintains MY heart and kidneys are the same thing as his own mother's womb. I don't recall my kidney having conceived him in his mother's bed.

Is he confused about basic biology?

Of course he isn't. He obfuscates; calling murder logical or sensible. He doesn't care if the fetus is genuinely a human being. We can still murder it.




5carbonfootprints
---I am having a hard time telling the difference between battery and killing an unborn child. Murder sure seems worse than battery to me.---

More appeals to emotion while totally missing the point. Legally, a person’s right to self is paramount. A fetus is not an independent being but requires the body of another person to keep itself alive. What you propose is that being a woman eliminates your right to self and privacy.

---Sex with your wife is different, and you know it so, don't give such stupid answers.---

No it is not. If my wife became pregnant and we did not want to have another child or if the fetus was severely disabled then we would opt for an abortion. There is much discomfort with pregnancy and quite a bit of risk.

dreadnaught
You just cannot fathom that others disagree with you. Maybe you should move to Iran. Abortion is illegal. Homosexuality is illegal and prayer must be performed 5 times per day, by law.


Total abortions

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html

Total abortions as of October 20, 2004 is 48,589,993... That's 48.6 million from RvW to 2004. 4 more years at 1 million per year puts the to-date total clsoer to 52 million. That ranks right up there with Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, et. al.


http://www.righttoliferoch.org/wstats.htm

Race: 46%. i.e. fewer than one half of women having abortions are white; they are 74% of the population.

Black women have 29% of the abortions; they are 12% of the population.

Hispanic women account for 20% of the abortion total; they are 11% of the population.


If aborts were even across the board, then white women, at 74% of the population, would have 74% of the aborts. Black women, at 12% of the population, would have 12% of the aborts. And Hispanic women, at 11% of the population, would have 11% of the aborts.

Is there some sort of push to have minorities abort more of their children than whites?

Regarding minorities and aborts...

Starting Townhall.com, tab down past "most viewed" and "most linked" to "Judges and the Courts". Click on "Planned Parenthood Targets Blacks". This article goes one step further and makes the case that Planned Parenthood is racially motivated. That seems to answer my question posed this morning.

birdman II
---This article goes one step further and makes the case that Planned Parenthood is racially motivated---

That is BS. You are pointing to a correlation between abortion and race and screaming causality. Any first year statistics student would laugh at you in your face. That is like pointing out that the most religion demonstrates a positive correlation with fantasy prone personality and claiming that religion causes the fantasy prone personality.

The truth is that there are many possible causes for a higher rate of abortion in blacks and other minorities and that it is, probably, multi-factorial.

the lines are drawn


DA is comfortable with the murder of unborn, defenseless human beings. He/she maintains it makes no difference if they're human beings, the mother-to-be is entitled to kill hers.

I maintain each abortion is a murder. I maintain innocent life must be protected. Period.

He thinks because this is my sincere belief, I should move to Iran. I guess he thinks he's smarter than the rest of us.

Cold blood makes him smarter.


birdman II
---DA is comfortable with the murder of unborn, defenseless human beings.---

Your opinion of what a fetus is does not mesh with mine or many other persons. It may be an appeal to emotion or it may be your sincere opinion.

I am comfortable with freedom of conscience and the individual family’s rights to decide what is best. I am against this totalitarian invasion of a person’s body and privacy by the government.

---I maintain each abortion is a murder. I maintain innocent life must be protected.---

And you are also for increased cost to taxpayers and increased government intrusion and a decreased freedom of conscience. In other words, you are against an individual’s rights to self, based upon your opinions.


---He thinks because this is my sincere belief, I should move to Iran---

It would appear that you’d be more comfortable in a nation that does not have any respect for individual freedoms. Their ideals seem to mesh well with yours.

dreadnaught
Sorry, the last post was directed toward you and not Birdman II.

incorrigibles never care


One definition of BIGOT is sticking obstinately to a position even if it's unconscionable and beneath contempt.

If this is your opinion:

[I go to] "a nation that does not have any respect for individual freedoms. Their ideals seem to mesh well with yours."

Clearly you've lost the debate. You simply refuse, on grounds of an individual "freedom." This is nothing but the law of the jungle saying I'm free to kill the defenseless unborn, precisely because today it's defenseless. No appeals will make an unborn baby safe under rules I make up.

You are not a law unto yourself. You can murder in this life with impugnity; but there is a Just God. Within years, you'll answer to Him. This has nothing to do with Iran. It has only to do with your criminal mind.

You are less than a man; you're a bigot who trivializes life.

dreadnaught
---Clearly you've lost the debate. You simply refuse, on grounds of an individual "freedom." This is nothing but the law of the jungle saying I'm free to kill the defenseless unborn, precisely because today it's defenseless.---

The point is that you have no respect for anyone with a different viewpoint. You’d like to eliminate freedom of conscience based upon your view that a fetus is a person that has more rights to the mother’s body than the mother herself. You’d like to apply your ideology by force. That makes you a fascist, no different than those islamofascists in the middle east. In other words, you share the ideals with the Islamic, jihadists b*st*rds that we are fighting in an attempt to bring freedom to the middle east.

dreadnaught
---there is a Just God.---

God, allah, ahura mazda, brahman and all of the others are simply fairy tales to maintain control of the feeble minded and weak. None of the plethora of gods worshipped today is supported by any historical or physical evidence.

DA
"You’d like to eliminate freedom of conscience based upon your view that a fetus is a person that has more rights to the mother’s body than the mother herself."

Should my "freedom of conscience" give me the right to kill you?

law of the jungle
" . . . no respect for anyone with a different viewpoint."

Reply:

Give us a break. YOU deserve respect ??????? One who condones the murder of a defenseless baby? Did Stalin deserve respect, or Mao?

"You’d like to eliminate freedom of conscience,"

Reply: --FREEDOM TO KILL ?

". . . based upon your view that a fetus is a person that has more rights to the mother’s body than the mother herself."

A fetus is a human being. The fetus does NOT keep his mother from eating. Nor from defecating, or going to a market or a mall. All the fetus does is LIVE for a time, within the womb of a woman who CONCEIVED him! (That's what WOMBS exist for, Sir, not as little Death Rows!) He lives, but had no choice in that matter; SHE DID. She is not within any RIGHTS to kill him. That's a travesty of justice.

"You’d like to apply your ideology by force. That makes you a fascist,"

Reply:

Protecting LIFE isn't an "ideology," you simpleton!

I would try to save YOUR life; should it become necessary. That is NOT fascism.

"you share ideals with the Islamic, jihadists b*st*rds that we are fighting in an attempt to bring freedom to the middle east."

I have nothing but RESPECT for those who uphold a right to live.

YOU confuse LIFE of the innocent unborn with the wholesale death inflicted by jihadis, and that's clearly a non-starter. They would cold-bloodedly KILL an innocent person, so-- they hardly differ from YOUR mind-set. YOU and they are brothers in death-dealing. I love LIFE for every innocent. You love the law of the jungle. You're prone to KILLING others.

You do so under pretext of individual "rights," and the Jihadi under guise of worshiping Allah. Each of you is a jungle beast.

ken
---Should my "freedom of conscience" give me the right to kill you?---

Am I physically attached to your body?

If my kidneys have failed and you are a match then you are killing me by your inaction.

You have not demonstrated that a fetus is worthy of personhood, anyway.

DA
So you don't believe in "freedom of conscience", then?

dreadnaught
---Give us a break. YOU deserve respect ??????? One who condones the murder of a defenseless baby? ---

Whatever, Osama. I don’t condone the murder of babies but the right of a person to control their own body.

---FREEDOM TO KILL ?---

It depends on your definitions of life and killing.


---A fetus is a human being.---

Only in the sense that it contains human genetic material, but so do those 40 million skin cells you shed everyday or those that are constantly reproducing in cultures for use as skin grafts.

My definition of a human requires more than genetic material. It requires little things like the ability to live as an independent being and self-consciousness.

---The fetus does NOT keep his mother from eating. Nor from defecating, or going to a market or a mall. All the fetus does is LIVE for a time, within the womb of a woman who CONCEIVED him!---

Ignorance truly is bliss, isn’t it? Read a book on the physiology of pregnancy and childbirth. While you are doing that, look up some facts about maternal mortality.

---Protecting LIFE isn't an "ideology," you simpleton!---

Simple is your worldview and definition of life. And yes, your opinion that you are protecting life is an ideology.

---YOU confuse LIFE of the innocent unborn with the wholesale death inflicted by jihadis, and that's clearly a non-starter---

Jihadists are about enforcing a religious lifestyle and so are you. Technically, it means enforcing god’s [allah in Arabic] law. There are both violent and non-violent forms of jihad. I hope you stick to the non-violent form.

ken
So you don't believe in "freedom of conscience", then? ---

Of course I do. Freedom of conscience does not extend to others, however. That is why we have laws. I can swing my arm as much as I like, as long as you are not in the way.

Pregnancy is a technically challenging case. But it comes down to the fact that the mother is an individual whose body is being used by a dependent being that poses many risks and causes many physical changes to the body of the individual. It is therefore the individual’s choice whether she wants to agree to the associated risks.

What you have to do is demonstrate why a fetus would possess more rights than any normal person, especially when it is they are not formed, independent individuals with knowledge of self.
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