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Thursday, June 18, 2009
Larry Elder :: Townhall.com Columnist
'45 Million Americans' -- Who Are Those Guys?
by Larry Elder
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


About 45 million Americans lack health care insurance. Or do they?

A pro-"universal health care" television host recently cited this widely accepted "fact." The number is bogus.

Here's the skinny.

Start with the math. We have 300 million Americans. Subtract the 45 million -- 15 percent of us -- with no health insurance. That leaves 255 million Americans, or 85 percent, with it.

And the insurance is lousy, right? Not according to a 2006 ABC News/Kaiser Family Foundation/USA Today survey. It found that 89 percent of Americans were satisfied with the quality of their own health care.

*** Special Offer ***

Nearly half of the 45 million fall in the category of my 26-year-old nephew. He smokes cigarettes, dates, eats out, goes to movies and, like all young people, lives through his cell phone. With a slight change in priorities, he could afford health insurance, the cost of which at his age and health starts at about $100 a month. Take a look at a Reason Foundation video of interviews with a bunch of non-health-insured 20-somethings.

These Gen Xers copped to dropping money on clothes, booze, nightlife, the latest tech gizmos and other things of interest to them. With a change in priorities, these young folks -- far more representative of those without insurance than the forlorn husband and wife sitting on a porch swing -- could both afford and qualify for health insurance. They simply consider it a low priority.

Millions more can access health care -- through SCHIP (State Children's Health Insurance Program), Medicaid or other government programs. But for whatever reason, 11 million people simply refuse to take advantage of them.

Several million other Americans who want insurance do, indeed, go without it -- for a time. Many are, however, between jobs, and most -- at some point -- will find employment that either offers health insurance or pays enough so that they can buy it. Millions more work at companies that offer health insurance, and for a few dollars out of every paycheck, they could add family members. They choose not to.

What about criminals without insurance? More than 2 million Americans -- with access to health care, by the way -- use jail, prison or penitentiary mailing addresses. And for every one behind bars, how many live among us who survive by theft, drug dealing, prostitution or some similar career path? Taxpayer health insurance for them, too?

So now we're down to the Americans without health insurance on a persistent, long-term basis. This is approximately 10-15 million, a big number to be sure. But does this warrant a government takeover of the entire health care system?

Lacking health care insurance is not the same as lacking health care . By law, most emergency rooms must provide health care -- to both legals and illegals. Yes, they stand in line, but no health insurance does not equal no health care.

Government (aka taxpayers) already pays half of our health care dollar, with programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP and other federal and state plans. The stated goals are accessibility and affordability. Congress passed Medicare in 1965. In the 20 years before the program's inception, the cost of a day in a hospital increased threefold. In the 20 years following Medicare, a day in a hospital increased eightfold -- substantially higher than inflation over that period. Because of cost controls on government plans, providers increased the cost on everybody else.

So here's the question.

Do we allow a complete government takeover of the section of health care it doesn't already run, for 10-15 million or so without health insurance on a persistent basis? Again, 255 million Americans already have it. Many millions more could get it if they wanted to. And 89 percent of Americans are satisfied with the care they now receive.

What to do? Unleash the free market. Allow greater competition among health care providers. Decrease costly regulations that increase the price tag. Enable consumers to purchase insurance plans across state lines. Allow non-government-licensed paraprofessionals and others -- currently prevented by law from offering any medical services -- to provide low-cost care.

What about poor care and negligence? We have laws against force and fraud, as well as a common-law duty of care. That's why God created lawyers. (Just give us "loser pays.")

What about those who cannot afford it? What about those with pre-existing illnesses whose insurance applications carriers turned down? What's wrong with charity -- people helping people? America remains the most generous nation on the face of the earth. We donate more of our time and money than countries like England, Germany and Japan. During the Great Depression, before the New Deal, charitable giving skyrocketed. After the New Deal, charitable giving continued, but not at nearly the same rate. People expected government to address the problem, and taxpayers felt they gave at the office.

We can provide such "universal" coverage at a "low cost" -- through rationing. That means long lines, lower quality and less innovation for services that Americans currently take for granted.

Economists call it T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

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About The Author
Larry Elder is a syndicated radio talk show host and best-selling author. His latest book, "What's Race Got to Do with It?" is available now.
 
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©Creators Syndicate
I was
jumping up and down cheering (in spirit) until you mentioned "loser pays".

Look, folks... for crying out loud. Losing a law suit does not even really mean you were wrong. It just means you did not win the day in court. "Loser pays" is, forgive my bluntness here, stupid.

Other than that, BRAVO!!!!

Here's what we do know.

Health Insurance used to be very affordable in the United States. That was before Liberals got the Goverment Involved.

Back in 1964 when Liberals created Medicare for the Elderly, there were 4 million Americans without Health Insurance. Liberals said covering these people would reduce healthcare cost for everyone.

Shortly there after Heatlth Insurance costs began to rise above the rate of Inflation.
Investigations showed this was because of "Cost Shifting" because the Government was not paying its full share to cover the people on Medicare.

Then Liberals created Medicaid to cover people on Welfare. Liberals said covering these people will lower healthcare costs for everyone.

Shortly there after Health Insurance costs began to rise twice the rate of inflation due to "cost shifting".

Then Liberals created SSI for people with disabilities. Liberals again said covering these people will reduce healthcare costs for everyone.

And again the rate of increases in Health Insurance began to double every 5 years.

Then Liberals create the Children's Health Insurance Program, AKA CHIP. Once again Liberals said covering these people will reduce healthcare costs for everyone.

The Cost of Health Insurance continued to skyrocket until today where more and more employers are asking employee to pay part of the premiums.

Today we have reportedly 45 Million Americans without Health coverage. That is over a ten fold increase since 1964 without a 10 fold increase in population.

So the high cost of Health Insurance today can be traced directly back to Liberals tampering with the system by getting the government involved.

So the next time a Liberals tells you covering these people will reduce the cost for everyone, say, "No Thanks".

Outrageous
C'mon Larry, you expect people to forgo basic necessities like cell phones, new cars, and digital cable, just to pay for their own health care needs?

Barbarian.

That 10 to 15 million uninsured
That 10 to 15 million uninsured includes millions of illegal aliens. Why should the taxpayers pay for millions of people who are breaking the law?

Goatlocker
I had a girlfriend that never once in the entire time I was with her [1 year] watched her television - no joke. But she wouldn't hear of canceling her cable ORR getting health insurance. It was the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen.

Let's see we broke up a couple months ago, and she was close to 30 [I'm 24]? I doubt she's changed.

Healthcare
is a right like having a police force and fire department.

10-15M is many if your mom dies.....
Elder, if even one person in the USA dies because he or she could not access healthcare, then that is one too many. Don't think so? What if it's your mother? Now that number is too high isn't it?

You conservative snobs are pathetic. You miminize issues to make the point that profit in free markets is more important than human dignity then you turn around and argue for pro-life positions. Why advocate for life if you won't advocate for the quality of THAT life?

Anyone who has been to an emergency room knows why we can't count on those services for the 10-15 million americans.

Useful Idiots
For once, I totally agree. Very good post.

Tyler
I'm inclined to agree that health care is a right, but it is nothing like fire departments and police.

The problem is exactly as Useful Idiots layed out. The government lays down a mandate, then does not fund it. In order to stay in business at all, the costs have to shift. This is all well documented stuff.

Universal health care is a wonderful idea, but we have been lied to as to how much it actually costs. Period. End of story.

Sorry, but you cannot chain slaves to college classrooms for 12 years and then push them out and force them to perform medicine for free. Life just does not work that way. Welcome to reality.

Republican Inhumane Logic
We generally oppose abortion, and we completely oppose financially helping those women who choose to keep the baby when it comes to food, health or education. don't abort and don't count on us to help you with caring for that child!

What is wrong with these people? REALLY????

Roll out the mommies
Yes SHEIK lets roll out the one person who dies because of inadequate health care and to make it really serious lets pretend that person is my mother. Well she had excellent health insurance, medicare, and long term insurance. She died. So lets eliminate all health care insurance and assistance because even if one person dies because they have more than adequate health care it is too many. And don't even get me started on automobiles, gas stoves, electricity, bath tubs, space junk, ladders,...etc. I think we should all move to Canada where you can wait at home and die.

Government is a bad actor
There are a number of bad government policies that should be revised to improve coverage and afffordability. However, they make laws and don't revisit them for 50 years. Tell me what you can do about massive fraud. Then revise the law that bankrupsts emergency rooms. Modify the prohibitively expensive FDA procedures for aproving drugs to benefit everyone with lower drug costs.
Gov Crist promised afordable health insurance and delivered. wwww.cinergyhealth.com

Common Sense; Personal Responsibility
Thank you for your article. At least someone in this country has common sense. Would you like to run for a California Senate seat? I'll vote for you.

It is always amazing to see people complain about not having health care. Get rid of the ambulance chasing lawyers, go to a board and get government out. They can't run the Post Office, Amtrak, Fannie or Freddie, Social Security, Medicare, GM, ad infinitum. What makes people believe they can run health care. Do we really have that many stupid people in the USA? Must go back to the educational system. Oh! That's run by the government too! Good Lord, how many of you people want to be SLAVES to the government. Didn't we fight a war over that? Oh yeah! The government run educational system doesn't teach that any more, does it. Guess we will have to repeat that war again. Amazing!

Diminishing Returns
Guess SHEIK never heard of the law of diminishing returns. By his logic we should have a major trauma center every 15 miles or so. Can't have one person die because they couldn't get access quick enough to a trauma center if they were in a accident. While we are at rights, like healthcare (not) I think everyone should have a car, its a right, like police and fire protection.
Perhaps if there any of the talked about HC plans looked at providing affordable catasphoric insurance coupled with high enough co-pays to prevent mis-use of health care resources, healthcare could be made more affordable. But then there would still be those crying that it unfair to have to co-pay. Problem is as Mr. Elders points out there will still be those that would not want to give up their personal comforts and expect someone else to pay for their healthcare.

Elder I want to know about the 70% who
have insureance and are not satisfied with the cost of health care.

Your straw-man, useless drivel about the numbers has nothing to do with health-care reform. Decades go by while you nitwits in punditry obfuscate your useless twaddle of spew over nothing.

Get into the real business of a columnist and write what is supposed to be done to bring costs into balance with economic reality.

Dig into why huge pharmaceuticals and Healthcare providers rake in billions of profit, while so many cannot afford to buy their medicine, or get a test that potentially could solve, cure and save their life.

While your at it, find more info about the oil company profits, and post actual numbers, from their balance sheets. Then as long as you've decided to be a real reporter, try to find out why speculators are again spiking the price of gas.

Can you do that Elder?

Can yuh?

Sheik

Sheik blathers like a 12-year-old "Elder, if even one person in the USA dies because he or she could not access healthcare, then that is one too many. Don't think so? What if it's your mother? Now that number is too high isn't it?"

Have you any idea what an idiot you are? Do you honestly belive that Obamacare is going to provide health care to 100% of the populace?

The fact is that it is the older folks - like the mother you cite - who're denied treatment in rationed, government run healthcare.

As for your nephew, TMI
I don't care about him in this context. He isn't representative in any way; not even for the reason you purport as context.

Try considering my sister. She has Lupus. Both her kidneys failed 8 years ago. She's 29. My older sister, now 49, donated a kidney, which lasted nearly 3 years. Apparently Lupus can really do damage all around.

My sister is now doing home dialysis sometimes twice a day, but always daily. She's clung to insurance via something with disability clause. I don't know exactly how. They actually dropped her once for six months, and caused severe anxiety in the family. It turned out their "computer" made an error, by some automatic function it wasn't supposed to perform.

Yeah, RIGHT!!

So, why aren't these real people with real issues in your article?

Eh Elder? Don't care to know about real people?

Just your smoker nephew?

I was gone a week to repair my sisters
bathroom floor. A friend of my dad tried to help them by doing them a favor and repairing the floor, when I was too busy. That was under two years ago. He did a very bad job. I finally had time this last weekend, and into this week so I went to Iowa and repaired it.

I'm a professional contractor Elder. I do everything with a sense of dignity and authority that I bring to my job. I know exactly what I'm doing and how to relay that to my client, and in this case my sister, dad, and mom.

My sister needed a good bathroom, because she depends on it for her dialysis. I was appalled at the condition of the subfloor. That friend's favor nearly caused the toilet to fall through the floor, let alone the chance of a leg popping through.

So, things go around, come around, and so on.

When you're walking along some day, and recall how you flippantly relayed this story, I hope your conscience gets the better of you.

Look Elder, what about the nearing 100
million elderly and disabled Americans on Medicare and Medicaid? Are these in your numbers? Did you consider them? What of the nearing One Trillion dollars it's going to cost to maintain those two programs? What about these two federally run insurance programs Elder? You know, the two programs that guarantee healthcare to the elderly and disabled?

What so many get, and now blame the "liberals for". Yet it was Bush who passed Medicare D which will cause a $Trillions deficit in 20 years.

http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?vendorId=FWNE.fw..me 077300.a#FWNE.fw..me077300.a

Elder, what does it cost to have a
patient seen by an emergency room?

As an aside, how long does it take to be helped when going to an emergency room?

Ever try it?

I'll stop critiquing Elder if anyone has
something of value to discuss?

Useful Idiot, you write a good game.
Got any actual figures to show as proof that passing the first bill, and even the second revision of Medicare caused healthcare costs to escilate?

I'm asking? I haven't had any need to look thus far. I care today, as once again the chance to do something about the cost of healthcare is on the table. I've gottne older, and I'm far more interested now. I also have experienced the cost increases for a large number of years.

This new plan isn't just about giving insurance to some, it's also about cost.

Health Care is not a Right
Health care, like everything else that requires a financial transaction (food, shelter, transportation, education), is not a right. Rights denote freedom. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; freedom of assembly.

If we assert that health care is a right, that means that someone has the power to compel hospitals and doctors to provide care without expectation of payment for their services. This is a violation of the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution and cannot be tolerated.

That said, we as a country can decide that a certain level of care for all is the standard which we are willing to pay for out of the public funds. Beyond that level, each person should be required to pay for what they consume - just as we expect for all other goods and services.

Dammit Elder, yuh open a can of worms
and there's no stopping the information available to find the truth!

So, under Clinton Medicare became on budget with it's first surplus since the first two years. Then in 8 years, Bush has it more than twice the deficit of ever before at ($641)Billion

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10014/HistoricalMar09.x ls

Rick from MN
Just what exactly are you criticizing? It's Elder's fault for your sister's condition?

Even though there was an error, it sounds like your sister is covered by health insurance. Did you want the insurance to cover your cost to replace her floor?

Here's a statement you made: "What of the nearing One Trillion dollars it's going to cost to maintain those two programs [Medicare and Medicaid]?"

That's exactly the point!

How much do you think the President's program is really going to cost?

Now, under Reagan to Bush Medicare, SS,
Medicaid, etc... revenues increased from $262 Billion to $1.6 Trillion.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10014/HistoricalMar09.x ls

Our taxes have been going up for three decades for these entitlements and discretionary programs. It's these that need the fist of your fury, not the uninsured.

Get off your high horses and send your fury to the law makers who must stop this inflation and increases of taxes for these programs.

I don't like it any more than you do, and I'm a Democrat. I want these programs, but I wish I ran it. I would be the Patton of the budget. Tanks rolling over the waste and law breakers.

I want laws to put theives in jail for a decade, not just a fine and probation. Since Reagan made America a nation of prisons, let's use them all. Spread them around by law more than is done now. Where are the populations low?

Oh, no where? Damn, that shoots that idea down.

A SANE VOICE!
The proposed "healthcare reform" is yet another horrible idea, dems are trying to stampede through Congress to Obama's desk..... before those nitwits go on vacation! The majority of Americans do NOT want nationalized healthcare, want government out of the industry, except for changing statutes which allow for purchasing insurance across state lines, and denying manditory care for illegal aliens... Something needs to be done about instances like the following, too:

9 Texas residents went to the emergency room 2678 times.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/06/17/nine-texans-2-678-em ergency-room-visits-its-time-to-say-no/

The fraud and abuse in the existing medicare and medicare systems is mindboggling! I purchase my own health insurance... work hard to pay the premiums, carry a $5000 deductible BY CHOICE! My extraordinary doctor spent a decade or more in medical school to acquire his awesome skills... I'm certain he pays tens of thousands of dollars for malpractice insurance to protect himself from John Edwards-type lawyers. I know very well if I were in a bind to pay his fees, I could make payment arrangements, and would pay every nickel.... gladly! I don't expect nanny government to steal my money through eliminating the premium deduction, and parcel it out to me and 10 others who refuse to carry insurance!

A TRILLION PLUS DOLLARS! God help us! Stop it! It's just another power grab! Thank you, Mr. Elder!

and Husker, the floor was a personal
anechdote, and I'm sorry it was an aside to the actual issue. Seems to me that was obvious, but I see how it would not be. So, take it or leave it for the story I dropped in.


Spike72
I disagree partially. Healthcare is a right. But rights are things to which you have access, not things to be provided to you by the government.

For example, I have a right to own a gun, but I cannot afford the gun that I want. The government has no reason or authority to provide me with a gun and I'm not asking them to. If I choose to purchase one, however, I have the expressed Constitutional right to do so.

You could substitute "gun" with "car", "house", "business", "computer", "television", "healthcare" or just about anything out there and it works the same way. We do have the right to healthcare, but not the right to expect the government to provide it. They simply aren't allowed to deny us care that we choose to purchase.

oldtexgal, yuh speak for the majority?
Wow, must be nice.

Anyway, I ask again, as I provided a link to CBO budget data with actual revenue and expenditure figures. Take a look.

From it you see that we already have a nearly $3 Trillion budget for national health care.

Could it be better spent to include more uninsured?

That's my question?

I am not wanting to raise taxes, nor spend more.

I want to spend what's already being spent; BETTER.

Wudda yuh think?

Cigarettes
A pack a day habit costs at least $125 a month. I know a lot of people without insurance who find the money each week for their cig addiction but struggle for other basic needs. Why do I have to foot the bill for these f o o l s? In the Obamanation the responsible bail out the irresponsible.

Health Insurance
Think about it, Obama doesn't care if you have health insurance or not. His target is the Insurance Industry. Too big. In his big government world, he needs to see it fail and he needs to take it over. Remember, in his world only government is the answer. He is out to destroy the insurance industry and he doesn't care how it affects us or our country. With his Democrat congress he owns the banks, auto industry, AIG, HE owns & controls all of t he States. Power is addictive and he wants all of it.

Here's the problem, Rick
Your 8:04 post reflects correct outrage, but once laws change and gov't programs are instituted, thay are not going away. Sure, they may change divisions and names (which is then called a "cut") so it looks like there is diligent activity around cutting waste- but there isn't because many gov't jobs- particularly here in NJ- are basically affirmative action dumping grounds and the job itself is an entitlement.

About the prisons... The past few decades yielded the increasing mitigation of what were higher social standards and expectations around behavior. We embraced moral relativism, which impacted the legal system. We introduced things like psychiatric reasons why people would do illegal things ( while feeling very scientific about the matter), and self-esteem building interventions rather than "punitive". We now have a system-and I work in this system- that is an entity unto itself but is predicated on "evidence based research" (much of it done by academic cronies of gov't employees), so on and on it goes.

We can "cut" nothing because the system itself is cutproof. We can change little to nothing because too many tenticles are intertwined to protect the swelling status quo.

It started with embracing of moral realativism in the names of diversity, sensitivity, multiculturalism, etc...

An aside, through all of this, I've never seen anyone denied health care in 26 years of sw practice.

Lack of Care
Please forgive the anecdotal evidence, my wife is 63 years old and has no health insurance. She has numerous health problems both physical and mental health issues. Yet she receives all necessary health care. Her scripts are filled via a discount program financed by the pharma-ceutical companies. She has a psychiatrist and a neurologist who treat her at greatly reduced rates and allow us to pay over time. The same with her Primary Care physician. Oh guess what she receives no benefits from any state of Federal agency.We live in NH the state with the lowest tax burden (4%)with few benefits and we like it that way.Here we care for each other.

healthcare debacle
The one issue I don't see anyone addressing when defending Obama's health care reform is WHERE on planet earth has it ever worked, in any form, without rationing, long waits, and denied services? To my knowledge (and I lived in Europe for 4 years) the government is always involved at some level, dictating what medicines and treatments may or may not be given. Long waits and denied meds and treatments are the accepted norms. I really doubt that my fellow Americans would tolerate this. We're very spoiled, my friends, and as "broken" as our system is, it's a bunch better than anywhere else in the world. If we go to universal health care, you can be sure at some point you will be told you are too old for a treatment, too old/sick for a medicine, etc., all because the government medical oversight board has "done the numbers" and the ROI on you isn't high enough to justify the expense. It happens all the time in Britain and Quebec.

And, think about this, if we get to where we are rationing medicine and treatments, who's going to do any real research and development of new procedures or meds? There would be no pay off, no way to cover the costs of said research and development AND no one who could afford them, so why bother. This narrow minded, tunnel-visioned view of health care will be the death nell to all sorts of medical research. So if you want universal health care and were hoping there would be cures for cancer, lupus, cystic fibrosous, etc., think again... Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too.


Well, off to work. I tried to relate
parts of the picture, and facts.

Rome was not built in a day.

Especially from morons like Dave.

boy o boy-1
We have real problems with reading comprehension and problem solving.

Some say "...bla, bla, bla this article does not mention costs, bla, bla, bla" The important part of the cost issue is what happens as a result of government waste. 20 years prior to Medicare VS 20 years after Medicare. Please tell us all how that is not a telling figure. Also please tell us all about the government run programs that are run efficiently and actually have improved conditions.

Some say "...bla, bla, bla, what about when your Mother dies, bla, bla, bla" That would be horrible, and it will be much more likely to happen under Socialized medicine. Why don't you research the manner in which the Canadian and British systems have failed some citizens.

My favorite story is that of a young Canadian girl with a bad ear ache. This was not important enough for health care, so she had to wait a couple of months. Well a couple of months go by, and Dad gets a call...sorry we are real busy, gonna' be another couple of months. You guessed it, Dad gets another call...gonna' be next August before she can get any attention. By now Dad is taking things into his own hands and seeking help in the U.S.A. The first doc took a quick look and said the girl needs a specialist, the specialist then said she needs the best of the best. The progressive (medieval) health care system had so utterly failed this family that girl had contracted an infection in the base of the skull and it was now uncertain whether or not she would live. Live she would (thanks to the U.S.) with permanent hearing loss.


Rick
It can't be spent better. The very nature of a government program rejects the ability of it to be efficient. There's no incentive for it to be. It won't lose funding due to poor performance, if anything, poor performace increases funding. People can't take their money elsewhere, there are absolutely no pressures for the Government to provide good, inexpensive care. Why should it? It can just take the money it needs instead of trying to convince people that their services are worth the cash.

A perfect example of how governments do nothing but grow and become more wasteful is the former British colonial administration office. It was at its largest and most expensive when Britain no longer had any colonies to administer.

We can save $1.5 trillion by getting rid of the $3 trillion government spends. We'll spend half of that, both individually and via charity, and still cover the same amount of people. The other $1.5 trillion will go to better use.

Even better, all of the labor tied up in bureaucracy will actually be forced to be productive, win-win.

boy o boy-2
Another important point: The assistance she received in the U.S.A. came from concerned Doctors who have actually established a process here in the states to try and help those who are unable to receive necessary health care from the socialized systems in their own countries.

Read that again carefully. Right here in the U.S. the free market and understanding doctors are addressing the complete failure of these systems. All while the pretend president tries to destroy our system. When a buerocratic system is determing how and when you will receive treatment, health care suffers. What about this is not clear???????

Right now Canadians who are stuck against the brick wall of their own wonderful health care system come to the U.S.A. for actual care. Where will they go now, and where will we go when our Mother cannot be seen or is too old for the necessary treatment.

Non issue
EVERY American has access to health care. EVERY person who walks into an emergemcy room must be seen and treated. We already have medicaid and medicare and we see how well those programs run there is absolutely no need for the government to take over health care. When will we learn that government does NOTHING efficiently except maintain an army.

Rick from MN
Patronize you?

I was doing nothing of the kind.

Your posts are all over the place.

1. Your sister's health condition (which is covered by health insurance).

2. Your sister's floor, which was repaired incorrectly and needing fixing.

3. The high cost of Medicare and Medicaid.

4. You don't want to raise taxes or increase spending.

5. The Republicans and the Democrats are both to blame for the outrageous cost of everything.

Have I covered everything?

Now, what is exactly wrong with Elder's column?

Healthcare isn't the issue here
You made some good points about the numbers, and that healthcare and health insurance are different issues, but that is a distracttion as PBO would say. The real issue, the one that neither the media nor the GOP bring up is whether we want a big brother government watching over us constantly.
As far as medical care goes, the government has tried and failed on multiple occasions to provide such care to various groups within the population and has failed by any standards. The Indian Health Service is responsible for the deaths of indians every day as a result its bad service. Medicare has no friends in this country outside of Congress. The one group that we have an obligation to provide for, our veterans, are served by an administration which is condemned by Democrats and Republicans alike. Why would the solution to medical care be to move away from a direction which which works so well the Canadians use it for their own healthcare on a daily basis, to a model which has yet to work?
Healthcare is a distraction from the goal of a big brother government and that is the conflict we should be engaging.

Rick
I think anyone would feel bad for a situation like your sister's.

But what did folks years ago do in her same situation? Answer: They died. That is not meant to be crass or personal - even though you brought your sister into it - but merely to point-out, that just because life-saving or life-prolonging medicine and treatment has become available for certain things -- that doesn't mean that everyone automatically then becomes entitled to it.

The issue of "entitlement" when it comes to health care, is a key ingredient in the debate. We, as a whole, have come to believe that we should be "entitled" to whatever medical treatment is available -- for whatever medical needs we have. If someone created a treatment tomorrow that could guarantee everyone living to be 100 years-old and cost 10 million dollars for the treatment, we would have millions of people claiming that they are "entitled" to the treatment simply because they are an American citizen.

Medical treatment was never to have been something we are all "entitled" to. If what is out there and you can afford it -- more power to you. If not, our own individual lives are not important enough in the grand scheme, that we can somehow demand that someone else pay for us to stay alive.

Those things do not sound good -- but they should be the reality of things. And if they were, we wouldn't be on the verge of destroying the medical industry.




Mothers won't die
Hospitals are required to take in people in emergency rooms, full stop. No one's mother dies. Universal care is all about getting you to the local doctor for an annual checkup and getting designer drugs. People live well into their 90s without having to buy the brand-name medicine or hitting the doctor every 6 months.

If we want to see what is wrong with America, see Rick. His emotional outburst states that he wants all of us to take up the slack because of his sister. That's at the core of what insurance is, getting someone else to pay for your medical care. Insurance companies can't function if they don't have people like me, who never use it, putting money into the system.

Sorry Rick, you should be footing the bill all by yourself, not being a jerk and hiring gun toting goons (government) to come into my house and steal it under the guise of democracy. You, Rick, are true scum.

Sorry for your sister, but YOU my friend, are scum. Don't steal from other people no matter how bad it may be. You'd have plenty of charity to cover those costs if it wasn't for the disgusing taxes we have to pay.

If it ain't broke
don't fix it.

I have never seen health care denied
to anyone in 26 years of sw practice. Quite the opposite- many of the poorest families spend a great deal of time at the doctor due their reactive/crisis oriented life styles. Everything is a tragedy and seems to warrant maximun intervention. In addition, cigarettes and alcohol tend to be unhealthy and expensive staples, and from there its numerous high risk births. Throw in open borders and we have base human nature mewling, devolving, increasing in numbers, and gov't susidized to do so. Through all of this, I have never seen anyone denied health care.

Clinics were more numerous before the era of litigation ensued; doctors are hesitant to volunteer services only to be sued these days. I saw this once widely employed approach to service disappear. Now suits can be filed if a health care provider doesn't also provide a translator for ANY and ALL languages they may encounter. Didn't know that, did you?

As for the "poor" I work with, most are going on vacations this summer to the south, a couple of cruises, one California, a Disney World, and one to Bermuda. Yesterday's meeting consisted of discussing what we do in the summer for "the neediest" among us, since many options are not available anymore due to litigation risk, such as going to the nearby beach. The "neediest among us" have become program staff, and the "needy" now check in with us in between concerts, vacations, clubbing, etc... But these same people "can't afford" health care.

Healthcare Crisis II
Who remembers when Bill and Hillary Clinton became president and all we heard about was CRISIS, CRISIS, CRISIS? Well, HillaryCare bit the dust, and somehow we survived for the last 20 years without their CRISIS plan.

Now another Democrat is in office and the CRISIS has re-emerged. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Moral of the story: don't elect Democrats and we won't have a HealthCare crisis.

re: The Ruse!!!
No, there is not one thing wrong with this system of health care except that there are about 15 million illegals who are not on it because the Demos want this so that they can secure a hugh voting block!!! Add to this the rest of the private businesses that will dump all of their employees on the public system that will just if fact ground any type of help for those who need it to a stop!!! And this will throw out the medicare and medicade, and it will be a hugh VA style health care system that is a is a horror story in itself!!! YOU CUBBIES BETTER LET YOU ELECTED PEOPLE KNOW THAT THIS IS A BAD DEAL FOR EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY!!! Except those that are on the capital hill they will keep their special health care because they themselves are above this and they are not the common joe!!! These idiots that run this country will not subject themselves to this because they feel they don't have to, think about it!!!!

Worse, remember, ALL OF YOUR
PERSONAL MED. RECORDS WILL BE CENTRALIZED AND CONTROLLED BY A *MED. REV. BOARD* THAT COULD HAVE NO MED. PERSONNEL ON IT WILL DETERMINE YOUR TREATMENT:

The end of privacy/confident. If King Elect O wants to blackmail you into voting for/out of running for office, your abortion, venereal disease treatment, cosmetic surgery, etc. will be available.

Gov't will also have the power to garner your wages for *free* ins.

Nothing is FREE from the gov't. Everyone pays for it. Medicare is NOT free--even on Soc. Sec., deduct's are made for Medicare.

As someone who has worked in pub. ed. since 1975 in k-12, undergrad and grad., EVERYTHING is regulated: say this, don't say this, fill out this, do NOTHING until you've read this sign here, THERE WILL BE H*LL TO PAY...

The left always brags about Cuba's healthcare but--if hospitalized, bring your own meals; you don't get elective surgery (gall bladder, cyst, or non-life-threatening); & you know available drugs barely meet the 1980s a la America.

Despite WHO, the US has the longest cancer survivor rates, greatest increase in longevity, greater gain in ht and wt since 1900 (both from better nutrition and medicine), & the best neo-natal care.

Some WHO stats claim we are 17th/27th in infant/birth mother rates are skewed as diff. countries count those numbers differently: some only register the 1st 24 hrs after delivery, & if a child dies 48 hrs later, the death is not recorded as a birth fatality.

As a hosp. vol. for years, I know hosp.'s do not turn away patients whether victims of car accidents or pregnant mothers. They try to work out payments if no ins. is involved, bill Medicaid or other gov't entity, or simply raise the costs for the insured, just as they do in NJ for the uninsured.

Bork Sotomayor
Don't buy GM or Chrysler.
Buy Gold.
Call 202-334 (225) 3121 to protest idiot *hate crime* leg and to stop the other juggernauts.
teapartypartriots.org for the 4th--I am going to Jackson, NJ



The Sen. # is
202-224/225-3121.

What is "healthcare" really about?
If we were interested in what this whole push for healthcare is really about, IMO, all we have to do is recognize the elephant in the room -- with an 800 lb gorilla on its back.

Go back to 1993 Hillary-care. If all the folks back then were genuinely concerned and distraught about the "millions" of people without healthcare and desperately wanted to help them, why did they stop when Hillary's plan was defeated?

If those folks were genuinely concerned about healthcare and their plan was not accepted, wouldn't they have come-up with another way of making healthcare more affordable? Wouldn't they have come-up with ideas involving tax-breaks for medical providers, loosening government regulations and restrictions, devising ways to create more competition for medical services, etc...etc...etc? I mean, if you were genuinely concerned about folks deperately needing health care and it was a "crisis" as was proclaimed, wouldn't there have been all kinds of ways and suggestions that those folks would have pursued in order to get help to those who need it?

These folks have had one and only one idea in mind for improving healthcare: Government takeover of it. So it is blatantly obvious that the goal is not improving healthcare, making it more affordable or the like, the goal is and always has been the government takeover of health. Clear and evident -- plain and simple.


Terry from GA, 9:06 a.m.
Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head.

America's New Proctologist!
Check this HILARIOUS story out on "healthcare!" http://theblacksphere.net/site/obamacare-america-gets-new- proctologist/ Bookmark it!

Falsehoods
Larry Elder, you are propagating all the same lies and misconceptions those of us who know the truth are sick of hearing.

We have had the "free market" in health care for decades now, and it has gotten us into this mess. Health care is not a market good to be traded on the open marketplace.

The current effort to keep the private health insuance companies involved is STIFLING free enterprise. They provide nothing of value, and so they do not deserve to exist or to earn a profit. They have muscled their way into the provision of health care in a most intrusive way, and added layers and layers of bureaucracy. They dictate practically everything the medical professional does.

So anyone can get seen at the ER? That is not quite true. Many ERs "divert" patients to other ERs, especially when they have no insurance. It is a fact that hospitals charge individuals many times more than insurance companies, and just because they saw you and gave you some kind of quick fix does not mean that they are not going to hound you with bills and drive you to financial ruin.

We have rationing now, in the most horrendous form, far worse than any other country. We also have long wait times for much care, sometimes unconscionably long times for PRIMARY care. This does not happen in countries with single payer. And we have millions who are not even IN the wait lines because they cannot even get care at all.

So, even though we pay out enough money for our health care crisis to be fixed, the government is refusing to do so, and you think it is perfectly all right to throw all our sick people at the mercy of charitable groups. What a pathetic excuse for not making the necessary change. I wonder if that is what you would have to depend on one day.

This is a moral outrage, and we need for people like Larry Elder to cease and desist from spreading their propaganda to the contrary.

Tyler 2:43
I'm going to respond to your post even though I'm sure you're sleeping off your drunkeness.

"Healthcare is a right like having a police force and fire department."

None of the above is a RIGHT. Each is a RESPONSIBILITY. None of those are a Constitutional guarantee. Find it if you can. Of course, liberals don't believe in personal responsiblity, only government nanny state.

Take a couple of asperin when you wake up. You'll need it.

The Name Of The Game.....
.....is control. Almost everything politicians,especially Democrats,does 'for the children' is really for control of the children and their parents,grandparents,etc.

Politicians are so good at throwing out numbers: hundreds,thousands,millions,etc. All guesswork. What difference does it make if they are off a few million? It's just numbers.

If there are 46 mil.,who are insuranceless,there are many reasons for that fact. Illegal aliens. Deadbeats who won't even pay for their kids to eat,much less buy insurance.

Then there are high salaried young people who think they are invincable and don't need insurance. They prefer to spend their money on friviolous things.New cars and high living.

Now why in the world should we worry about these people and if they are insured or not? If the government must do anything at all,do it,but leave the rest of us who are taking care of ourselves .....alone.

This Isn't About Affordable Healthcare
The "Stimulus" wasn't about Stimulus.

The bank "bailouts" wasn't about making banks solvent.

"Cap and trade" isn't about the climate.

"Universal health care" isn't about caring about the uninsured.

This is all about a power-grab by an all-powerful unConstitutional government bureaucracy that is designed to lower America's high standard of living, and to make all it's citizens totally dependent on a federal system in Washington, D.C. that benefits only the politicians in Washington and their cronies behind the scenes who pull their strings by buying them off: Money-changing at the highest levels of government.

The people who propelled Barack Hussein Obama to power know he and everyone he is associated with is a crook, and that is his usefulness.

They are running one giant Ponzi scheme and hedge fund on the taxpayers and with the taxpayers' money and lives.

Nothing Obama is doing has any consideration for everyday working Americans. You are a dupe and a fool to believe otherwise. All you have to do is to admit that not ONE thing he is doing is helping the average (or middle-class) citizen.

It's all about controlling EVERY aspect of our lives.

That's all.

Bogus Number
You don't even address illegals. Surely, a large portion of that 45 million are illegal.

Just leave us the hell alone
My wife and I are both in our seventies and the only health insurance we have is what the government has forced on us in the form of Medicare. I did pay for it, so I guess I am entitled to it, but given the option, I would have not paid for it either. I choose not to have health insurance because I have hardly ever in my lifetime, used the insurance that was provided by any of my various employers, and for the amount paid out, I would have been better served to have had the cash that I could have used for medical care when needed, rather than having my employer pay for something that might never be used.

The problem with the government's "single payer plan" is that it is going to increase the cost of medical coverage, and decrease the access to it, hurting all like myself and my wife who now pay as we go.

I would like to tell the government at all levels to just leave us the hell alone.

Healthcare pre-60s
Prior to the government passing Medicare and Medicaid, my grandmother had to take care of her kids (1950s). Back when it was "everyone for him/herself" costs were lower. There are two stories that stick out in my mind relating to healthcare. The first is that when it came time for the kids' checkups, the doctor would schedule them all at the same time and only charge her for one kid. There was another occasion in which a doctor made a house call in the middle of a snowstorm and only charged her for the cost of gas.

After 40+ years of government intervention into healthcare, tell me we're better off. Show me that the stories I just gave are still the rule rather then exception today.

Mathematics and Common Sense
How is it mathematically possible to put only one dollar in a jar and later take ten dollars out?

How would it be possible to pay a grocery store a hundred dollars a month, but get seven or eight hundred worth of groceries every month?

How much would your home insurance be if you charged everything to it: painting the home, new ceiling fans, new blinds, new countertops, etc...?

Would you knock on your neighbors door and demand that they pay for your child's medical check-up?

If car insurance took care of your gas bill and thus your premiums become substantially higher, should everyone become entitled to "car insurance?"

If legal advice was free, how many more people would be lined-up at the door of any attorney every day? Would we have enough attorneys to cover all the free legal advice that we would all be entitled to?

...When it comes to the issue of "health care", we seem to want to throw-out all the laws of mathematics, common sense, reason and logic and opt for believing that a pack of politicians can come-up with a magical "plan" so that everyone can have all the medical care they need.

It ain't going to happen -- that square peg is never going to fit in that round hole! We can talk about it until blue in the face, but it simply cannot work.

foxyloxy
Come to work with me for one day. Just one.

You are not now and never have been in the social work or human service field, have you? No. Definitely not.

Usurper Plans More Theft
So,,,,let's just get around to admitting that the "thief in chief" has ultimate plans of collapsing our economy and depopulating the masses of white America. When will the military take over the White House? Our oval office is a place for an American patriot, and NOT a treasonist. I am calling on all Americans to get behind our flag.

AuHunter
"I would like to tell the government at all levels to just leave us the hell alone."

Dude, we could have had your help the past eight years. Where were you?

The Republicans are unrepentant Socialist and corporate welfare-istas.

It was the George W. Bush administration and the Republican-controlled Congress who added the $50 billion a year Medicare Prescription, Part D program, while absurdly claiming it would only cost $40 billion a year.

When someone in the Congressional Budget Office wanted to inform Congress that the program would really cost $50 billion a year, the Republicans fired him.

This additional spending program was a handout to the pharmaceutical companies, on the backs of the American taxpayer.

A year later, President Bush campaigned about the looming crisis in entitlement spending. What a joke, this just after the Republicans had tacked on yet another entitlement spending program, paid by dumping the entire cost onto the national credit card.

Do you think an American should be able to shop for drugs in Canada or Mexico if that's what they want to do? The Republican party says that is criminal behavior. Talk about nanny-staters!

Too many of we conservatives were MIA the past eight years.


Superb Article
Mr. Elder! It proves my point which is the Government's use of numbers to create crisis and create victims. You are clearly pointing out the falasies in the numbers. It is about time because their numbers are always suspect. 400,000 people die from smoking each year? 180,000 women die from breast cancer each year? I wonder why those numbers have not changed in 20 years with all the government programs and charitable contributions. These Waxmans in Congress, these elected Gods of the Universe, that can solve all the problems in America with the stroke of a President's pen is what is wrong with Health Care, Jobs in America, and everything else we Americans gripe about. If the TV/Media Gods say it, down the road we go. Thanks for the wake up call!!

Probably, all of them are "illegal"
45 million "americans"? I don't think so. More than likely, these "americans", 45 million of them, are mostly illegals that just came from another part of the world, where their governments are more corrupt than the one we have. But, not to worry, with the way things are going, our government will be just as corrupt as the rest of the world, just give it a few more weeks.

This is BS!
While working on a M.A., and only substitute teaching, I purchased NASE health insurance. Cost: $150.00 a month with a $500.00 deductable. They kept upping the price, and I had to drop them. They continued to take money out of my account, and I had to pay $30.00 in bank cancellation fees.

Think about this for a minute. The M.A. set me back $30,000.00 in tuition and book fees. I earned $85.00 - $110.00 daily, with no benefits. Traveling and car repair expenses were large, insurance was low because my 1976 Datsun truck and 1986 Acura were old.

Eating out?? Only when I forgot my lunch in the kitchen.

Clothes were purchased in thrift stores.

I had a mortgage, car and house insurance to pay.

I had a teenage son and paid for his car insurance. He earned this with his A grades and great behavior. (He now makes approximately $85,000.00 annually.)

There was zero extra money for health insurance, much less the $500.00 deductable. One trip to the clinic when my son was ill set me back $150.00.

Plus, I was sitting in class until 8 to 10 p.m. 3-4 nights a week.

Elder is way off on this one.

Another stat NOT mentioned
The "45 millions uninsured Americans" includes (AT LEAST) 12 millions malfeasant aliens (of which we can say that 11 millions are from North/Central/South American joint-continents and another 1 million not even that).

Two things taxpayers may not know
1) "Corporate taxes" are paid by consumers, as the "corporate taxes" are simply added to the price of goods or services (paid by whom?), not collected by passing the hat at a corporate Board meeting;

2) Gov't spending is taxpayer spending. If one gets a tax refund (except EITC, the curious acronym for "welfare"), that doesn't mean one hasn't paid taxes, but that one has made an interest-free loan to the gov't via withheld taxes that exceed one's actual tax liability. The refund is the repayment of this loan, which has to some extent paid for EITC.

Let's extrapolate: huge increases in gov't spending don't suggest political benevolence, but that politicians are spending the money of stupid taxpayers (Bill Clinton: we're raising taxes because you may not spend your money on the right things...in Clinton's estimation).

Face it: our elected officials are just like those "evil" capitalists in that they have "golden parachute" retirement plans. And WHO pays for these political "golden parachutes"?

Do YOU pay taxes?

(One way or another, the answer is yes unless you never buy any goods, say, food or gas, or services, eg, cable TV, which the average "poor" person has. Of course, our "average" poor live better than "average" European middle-class.)

2010: Obama will have sufficient rope to hang himself by the end of the year, so the House may be up for grabs, not a lock for democrat reps, who are beginning to realize this.


It's Jobs & the Economy Stupid
Hey Rick-- you said "Yet it was Bush who passed Medicare D which will cause a $Trillions deficit in 20 years." True, but Bush took a lot of heat from conservatives for passing that POS legislation. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems like you are trying to justify Obama spending over $1 TRILLION on healthcare because Bush spent trillions on the medicare drug plan--which, IMO, should be repealed. He has spent way too much already and needs to focus on the economy--not healthcare. Healthcare is not going to create 6 million jobs. Right now the most important thing this country needs are jobs--period. No jobs, no tax revenues; no tax revenues, higher defecits. It's not complicated but Obama does not seem to get it at all.

Bravo!
No health insurance does not equal no health care--brilliant!

You've said what should be obvious, but for some reason is not.

aspacia
Who ordered you work on an M.A. and spend $30,000.00? Did you not choose to do that?

Who ordered you to get married, have a son and buy him a car? Did you not choose to do that?

We cannot logically and reasonably expect to be free Americans and make our own choices, but then turn around and expect certain necessities be provided for us because we didn't include them in our choices.

And of course your medical premiums kept going up, what -- you thought you were going to be able to keep paying $150.00 a month and be able to visit the doctor and receive treatment whenever and wherever needed?

Aspacia
Congratulations on your MA and achievements, but the fact is you put yourself in the postion you were in. I do not know what your story is, but you had the teen age son while in grad school and subbing. I am not scolding you, but am pointing out that had you finished your education before reproducing, your story would have been quite different. I am not addressing you from a mountain top, having made plenty of poor decisions in my life; but those decisions were mine and the difficulties generated by them of my making. Our society has come not only to expect but demand accommodation for all kinds of personal decisions and behaviors, and you are such a person. As a result, we have cultivated a society where appetites are prioritized , discipline rarely enters the mind, and more big gov't programs serve only to make matters much worse.

In 26 years of social work practice I have never seen anyone denied health care- not once. We need to move away from policies that promote yet more self-indulgence and promote personal responsibility or we will continue to implode.

Part of the answer for those with
illnesses is to create an "assigned risk" regulation just as most atuomoblie insurance laws have. With auto insurance, drivers with poor records are put in the A/R pool and all insurance companies must take their share of these drivers.

Why not do the same with health care? Require that all HMOs take their share of those with chronice illnesses.

As for the poor who truly cannot afford health insurance, we could allow the government to pay their premiums instaed of paying for their health care costs.

These two simple measures offer a common sense solution to the two groups with a real need for coverage.

terry GA right on!!
I would only change the sentence about politicans thinking they can come up with a plan to give everyone all their medial needs to politicans delusionally dreaming that they can gvie everyone all their real and or imagined medical needs.

Another pure fantasy is saving money through preventive care. Does anyone think that through the right amount of education you will suddenly get people to exercise, eat right, give up drugs, not have extra marital sex, give up cigarettes, not over indulge alcohol, go vegetarian, marry once, give up caffine and sugar, and do a marathon in under three hours? Preventive care is changing peoples basic life choices and is about likely as me becoming the point guard for the Lakers.

People Want Jobs, First - Not Healthcare
Obama is from an ancient time where people are sheep and leaders are dictators / shepherds of the flock attending and dictating to their sheep's needs.

He will stagnate America with his Government largess that raises taxes, grows his power and poverty. No thank you!

As Larry so perfectly offers, unleash the private sector, lower taxes to corporations and citizens, thereby creating more jobs and more money in our hands to self-determine our own healthcare. You do not have to be rich to afford healthcare, you only need a job and a healthy, competitive service industry to make it universal and inexpensive.

Obama and freemarket
It mixes as well as oil and water.

Zapdoodat - A Socialist Enabler
Zapdoodat offers, "Too many of we conservatives were MIA the past eight years"

Thanks to you, we now have Obama. Nice work. Your claim to Conservatism is a bit disengenuous, at best.

It's all BS
Lies, lies, and more lies coming from
the MSM and the bozos in D.C. The MSM is disgusting. They and the Congress, along with Obama, ignore our voices, faxes, petitions, letters, phone calls, tea parties, and every other conceivable attempt we make to get them to listen to us. There is no doubt that they hear us. However, they simply flip us the bird and continue to do as THEY want, the People be damned. It is clear--- they don't give a damn about the Constitution either. Throwing ALL of them out at once is actually the best way to go. The only Rep or Sen that I would even consider keeping would be one who insisted on presenting a bill that started a review of EVERY federal program and immediately cut funding for all that have been created without clear constitutional authority for its existence. Of course, then we'd have the scumbags drag SCOTUS into the fray, even though it has no authority in such matters. I know therefore that it would never fly even if it made it to the floor. However, we need someone with the cajones to at least try! Of course, we NEED a constitutional amendment that allows THE PEOPLE to set the rules for the House and Senate to keep these ba$tards under control. Until then, I'm sick to death of petitions and the like. It's time to "just say no".

foxyloxy at 9:18 a.m.
foxyloxy wrote, "Larry Elder, you are propagating all the same lies and misconceptions those of us who know the truth are sick of hearing."

Wow, someone knows the "truth" and the rest of us don't.

All conservatives, please read foxyloxy's post at 9:18 a.m.

This is the nonsense that many people believe. This is the nonsense we are up against. foxyloxy's post is type of thinking that will rule if President Obama gets his health plan.

Heaven help us.

Sheik, at 2:43am
It's not that profit is more important than human dignigty. It is the FACT that a free market will provide better care at a lower cost for the VAST majority of the populace.

Couple that with the fact that a government take-over of health care is tantamount to stealing the intellectual property rights of medical professionals. These professions, who have spent years and thousands of $$'s, have the same right as the engineer, physicist, professor, etal, to benefit from their hard work and study.

It is not the fault of the rest of us if you are unable to grasp the truth of economics.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

What Comes After "Health Care?"
Any forward-thinking folks out here know what the next crisis will be once we've destroyed the Medical Industry?

I'm thinking it could be: Automobiles. There are certainly those in our society that can't afford an automobile. And how are they supposed to get their children to the doctor to take advantage of the health care system, if they don't have reliable transportation?

What happens to someone without an automobile if their children get sick during the middle of the night and the buses are not running?

How are folks out of work going to look for a job and attend interviews if they don't have their own transportation? It could be that providing them with an automobile would be an "investment in our future". If they get a job -- they won't be on unemployment or Welfare.

How are folks who don't have an automobile supposed to attend meetings at school? How would they be able to pick their children up from school if they're sick?

There has to be millions of people who sit around at the dinner table at night, wondering what tomorrow will bring -- hoping there's no emergencies for them or their children.

And so the question is: How can the greatest and most prosperous country on Earth, not provide adequate transportation for its citizens? We've sent men to the moon -- certainly we can figure-out a way to get everyone safe and reliable transportation!


Pre-existing medical conditions
Private health insurance companies would do anything in their power to prevent individuals with pre-existing medical conditions, like diabetes, epilepsy, asthma, heart defects, cancer survivor, etc. from being on their plan. Every plan the Republicans come up with would allow the Health Insurance Companies to continue this practice. Elder's suggestion that they can receive charity from private individuals rather than guaranteed coverage from either the government or a private insurance company is just plain insulting. So if an individual has diabetes, that individual should spend hours per week begging for money to pay those bills that s/he cannot pay? Yikes! And, contrary to recent Republican propaganda, the overwhelming majority of pre-existing medical conditions are due to God's will and not due to individual behavior.

RE: Free Market totally ignored
Thank you, Larry, for bringing up the free market! I don't have insurance, but when necessary, go to the clinic of a local hospital. It's not "Emergency Room" care; it's a clinic. About $100 to sign up, and subsequent visits are $60, plus meds if prescribed, etc. I've never waited longer than 30 minutes there to see a doctor.

A friend of mine needed reconstructive surgery. Her insurance was willing to pay. The doctor estimated an $8000 - $10,000 cost. My friend asked, just out of curiosity, "What if I paid you in cash instead of going through insurance?" The doctor performed the surgery for about $5000. Saved him the expense of paperwork and the wait for payment.

The free market works better than anything the buttheads in DC are proposing. If only they'd let it alone to work.

Why some choose not to buy
The people I know who don't buy health insurance fall into 3 categories: (1) pre-existing medical conditions not covered; (2) pre-existing medical conditions makes the cost of the insurance offered to the individual at a rate of 90% or greater of the individuals pre-tax income; (3) the "health insurance plan" is really just "junk insurance". (For example: A friend of mine was offered the following plan at the restaurant where he worked fulltime for $8.25/hour: At a cost of $1000/year, the plan had a $500 deductible, a 50% co-pay for covered expenses, and a maximum payout of $2000/year. Annual checkups are explicitly not covered.)

It is Bogus Anyway
Think inflation. What is inflation? It is when the price of something that use to cost $1 yesterday, cost more that $1 tomorrow. What is the medical inflation rate. One thing we do know. The medical infation rate is higher than the consumer price index, which is a broad indicator of inflation. So, what does that all mean? It means that the total cost of healthcare is rsing. If the total cost of healthcare is rising, then the cost of insurance must rise. If it rises too fast, that means incomes do not keep up, and to have that insurance, you have to devote a higher percentage of your income to pay for that insurance. In other words there is no free lunch.

Triage
Here in Georgia, if an individual without health insurance goes to a hospital, s/he is immediately seen by a triage nurse. If the medical condition is such that the individual will die or suffer serious irreversible health consequences within 24 hours if not seen at the hospital, then the individual is seen by the ER doctors and appropriate treatment given.

On the other hand, if the triage nurse determines that the individual can exist for 24 hours or more without medical care, then the individual is sent to the Billings Department. Cash or electronic funds disbursement occurs at that time .... before the individual is seen by a doctor. If the individual does not have the cash, then the individual is referred to Social Services, and told to return once payment is arranged. I've witnessed with my own eyes a young adult woman turned away from the ER, with a referral to Social Services, granted, but without any medical personnel besides the triage nurse interacting with her. It's just not true that individuals can access healthcare without health insurance.

Heres what we do know.

For years conservatives have been trying to reduce the cost of heatlh Insurance but Liberals have opposed each effort because reforms would not make people dependant upon Goverment.

Starting back in the 80's when Heatlhcare costs started getting noticed, the Conservatives advocated Tort reform so that only actual damages and expenses had unlimited compensation and penal compensations would be capped.

Liberals opposed this reform.

Medical IRA's & Medical expense accounts. While during your working years you could put aside money later medical emergencies and to cover items not covered by Insurance.

Liberals opposed this reform.

Co-pays for people on Medicaid when they use the Emergency Room for a running nose instead of going to the Doctor's Office.

Liberals opposed this reform.

Tax credits and deductions for people who purchase their own Health Insurance.

Liberals opposed this reform.

Allowing private individuals to pool into Insurance plans. Today we are calling it Co-ops.

Allowing small businessed to pool their insurance coverage so they can get the better rate like Big Corporations do.

Again Liberals opposed these reforms.

The whole time Liberals were working behind the scene to drive up healthcare costs for everyone.

So once again we find a Modern day problem that is hurting millions and millions of Americans caused by,,, you guest it. The Liberals.

Some People Just Don't Get It!
Tyler offers, "Healthcare is a right like having a police force and fire department."

Absurd, of course.

Police force and fire departments are neighborhood options, not rights. If you want your neighborhood to foot your living expenses, ask them, not us.

Kennedy's Bill?
If Senator Kennedy, with all his wealth and easy access to advanced medicine, failed to get an MRI Scan to diagnose his brain tumor at a treatable stage, how can he be trusted to provide Americans with a health plan that would diagnose diseases at treatable stages? Did he personally choose bad doctors who neglected obvious symptoms, such as his infamous January 12, 2005 National Press Club statement “Why don’t we ask Osama Bin Laden, Osama Obama, Obama why he won by such a big amount” or was he too cheap to pay the co-pay for a diagnostic scan in 2005? In any case, trusting his judgment for Americans’ health care would be as stupid as trusting his advice on how to drive over a Chappaquiddick Island bridge.

Single Supplier Kills Continuous Improve
Sheik offers, "Elder, if even one person in the USA dies because he or she could not access healthcare, then that is one too many. Don't think so? What if it's your mother? Now that number is too high isn't it?"

What on earth are you babbling on about?

Everyone in America can access healthcare, already.

This discussion has to do with how best to pay for it, while maintaining maximum continuous improvement. A single payer, as with any monopoly, promises a death knell to continuous improvement. With competition as with the free market of thousands of suppliers and each of us shopping and owning our own policies, history has shown that continuous improvement is robust.

In other words, free public healthcare does not mean much if it does not conform to your needs, but the needs of the State provider. Is that what you want? Not me.

Companies that Self-Insure
My experience with companies that self-insure, like Safeway, is that they are very, very careful to only hire people without pre-existing medical conditions. I've seen this personally: the job application includes a sheet requesting detailed medical information from the job applicant. (Some questions: have you or anyone who would be on your insurance been hospitalized overnight anytime in the past three years? Why? Do you or anyone who would be in your insurance have: [a list of about 30 ailments, including heart palpitations, seizures, fainting spells]; list all medications that you or anyone who would be on your insurance are taking; and on and on.) This information is requested prior to when the first interview is scheduled. Then, surprise, surprise, the self-insuring company has lower costs than other companies.

Nationalized Health Care
In the Army, I lived government ran health care.

You wait to see a doctor, wait weeks for tests, have to have everything approved beforehand, etc.

If you really want a picture of national health care, just remember your last trip to the Department of Motor Vehicles and the treatment you received there. It will be the same, if not worse.

Health care is not a right. You are entitled to what you can afford. Don't ask me to pay for your health care.

Useless Idiot
"For years conservatives have been trying to reduce the cost of health Insurance."

Then why side with the Republican party. Do you realize that the Republicans actually added another whole layer of liberal entitlement spending in 2003? Yes, they added Medicare Prescription, Part D, that costs $50 billion a year. That entire cost has been dumped onto the national credit card. They believe in BIG goobmint, they just can't be bothered to pay for it. It was the Republican party's gift to the American people.

Part of that Republican spending program forbids the government from negotiating drug prices to get the best deal for the taxpayer. The Republican mantra is "what ever the taxpayer will bear", instead of the more free-market lyric of "whatever the free-market will bear."

Another part of the deal was to make it a felony for an American to go to Canada and purchase their drugs at a cheaper cost.

Talk about a Nanny-state. It's a Republican Nanny-state where the protected are Big-Pharma companies.

Some Abdicate All To The Opposition
Zapdoodat offers as to resisting Democrat largess, "Then why side with the Republican party."

Because enablers like you would let Democrats trend to absolute Statists. We only have two viable parties. Trashing one, only supports the other.

No one party ever has absolute control. During the Clinton years, the Republicans managed to keep him from the far reaches of his wants. The same with the Bush years, the Democrats managed to keep the Republicans from the far reaches of their wants.

Even today, Obama, with near impunity (or as close to regal authority as I have ever seen), will not get all he wants.

To think that one party or another rules the government at any given time is just plain silly. We get a negotiated blend -- certainly, not always what we want, but much better than abdicating everything to the opposition.

svpallava

Location: VA
Reply # 70
Date: Jun 18, 2009 - 11:12 AM EST Another stat NOT mentioned
The "45 millions uninsured Americans" includes (AT LEAST) 12 millions malfeasant aliens (of which we can say that 11 millions are from North/Central/South American joint-continents and another 1 million not even that)."
_____________________________________________

Yet another logical leap that insanely illogical liberals either refuse to mention, or are too caught up in this idea of a fantasy utopian Government as Santa Claus mentality, is how many 10s of MILLIONS MORE ILLEGAL INVADERS & HOMESTEADERS from Mexico and South America can we expect to flood our open and unprotected borders once this American taxpayer financed FREE FOR THEM ONLY Obama universal healthcare is enacted?

This will break the back of the American economic system...something that increasingly being revealed as EXACTLY what Obama and his friends have in mind.

And the retard liberals are in a PERMANENT state of denial. The hell with them. I personally don't care if they EVER take a stand to protect our liberty. They seem to hate America as much as Obama does. That's why they support him.

There are enough patriots. We don't need them to change their minds. They've lost theirs.

terry and oldsocial worker
I was married and my husband earned $75,000.00 annually, that is until he decided he enjoyed coke and not working as many hours. I chose to not subject my son to the ex's drug abuse, left, and never received court ordered child support.


Prior to marraige I was purchasing my own home on a quarter acre lot, 3 bedrooms, 1600 square feet. Large enough for me, my horse, two large dogs and two cats. Understand!

It is nearly impossible to raise a son, in a decent area on secretarial pay. Hence, I returned to school. I did not purchase my son's car, it was a gift from my parents, the old 65 Mustang, the one in which I learned how to drive.

I am simply stating, that is is nearly impossible to pay for current health care expenses. Heck, currently I have great health care, but had to pay $350.00 for two sets of replacement lenses, using my old frames. Why? Health insurance would only pay for one set of lenses, and one set of frames. The problem is I need both distance and reading glasses, hence two sets of lenses.

Thankfully, I now earn enough to pay for this.

This story, is a similar story that many U.S. citizens share. Send illegals back, and perhaps then we can afford to care for our own.

For OnceAlwaysAMarine, others
Now, I'm going a bit off topic but....

I posted a "solution" (I thought of it in a five-minute walk between my office and Arlington County Library) to the bakvas used specifically by malfeasant parents of "anchor babies"--click to read/comment.

aspacia
I don't mean to be rude, but there are a lot of small children dying in children's hospitals around the country. Many of them won't make it until Christmas.

I am not trying to be a smart-@ss, but there are people among us who don't even have a real chance at life. And I am pretty sure that they would love the chance at living and being held responsible for paying for their eyeglasses.

I am not targeting nor trying to ridicule you. I am just trying to put the whole thing in perspective. And that is that we are all guilty at times of complaining about our circumstances -- but we have it pretty damned good compared to alot of other folks.

Frog said
"It's not that profit is more important than human dignigty. It is the FACT that a free market will provide better care at a lower cost for the VAST majority of the populace."

Really? The last time I checked, the free market is currently in control and is the catalyst for the health care debate. The fact is that profit IS more important than human dignity in our present economic climate which has led to escalating health care costs intensified by personal greed in an industry that we falsely perceive as one that promotes the care of individuals above all else.

More and more middle class families and the working poor are unable to afford health care and doing nothing as Elder and other conservatives on this thread indicate will only exacerbate personal financial strain and limit economic growth.

If you have real solutions to the problem other than the usual GOP talking points (less taxes, empower the free market, etc.), lets hear it.


I'm Without Insurance,
I'm without insurance -- because of government meddling.

First, because of government meddling in the health care industry and insurance industry dating way back to FDR that tied health insurance to employment.

Second, because of government meddling in the free market that caused the current economic crisis which cut our income by more than 2/3 (we have no TV and wouldn't have internet except that we need it for the small business we run).

Third, because of government meddling in mandated care that produced a system where waste is incentivized while innovation and thrift are penalized so that medical technology has increased in cost rather then followed the natural pattern of reducing in cost that all other technology follows in a free market.

Fourth, because taxation across all levels of government robs people of large amounts of money that they would otherwise have been able to save, spend, or invest far more efficiently and effectively than government does.

I am asthmatic and I'm living without the $150/month worth of medicines required to maintain me in perfect respiratory health. That doesn't mean I have no access to medical care.


I'm Without Insurance, part 2
I have access to over the counter medicines that can maintain me in acceptable respiratory health about 90% of the time.

If I were to have a dangerous asthma attack I can dial 911 and be treated by paramedics on the scene and transported to the hospital where they will treat me first then talk about payment arrangements after.

If my condition were to worsen I could appeal to my church for charity money to see a doctor and pay for a supply of medicine to last until times improve and we can once again afford regular doctor's visits.

Alternately, there is a free/reduced-price clinic in this county which I have chosen not to access while I can maintain adequate control by rigorously avoiding asthma triggers and using inexpensive OTC meds because I don't want to take resources from someone in greater need.

My need is not for the government to provide my medical care. My need is for the government to get out of all things that are not its rightful business, cut my taxes, and stop meddling with the economy so I can pay for my own medical care.

Terry's Health Care Plan
For those that cannot afford health care and want it, I have a plan specifically designed for you. Simply follow these instructions and you will be self-sufficient and will not have to depend on someone else to pay your medical bills for you:

1. Never biggie-size your meals at the fast-food drive-thru.

2. Drink a 12-pack of beer a week instead of a case.

3. Opt for the silver cable package instead of the Platinum one. You will then only have about 500 channels to choose from -- but you'll get by.

4. Stop buying cigarettes, soda and donuts at the convenience store.

5. Visit some of the amusment parks and attractions during the summer -- not all of them.

6. Rent only 5 DVD's for the weekend instead of 10.

7. Sell your Star Wars action figures on E-Bay.

8. Stay out of the movie theaters.

9. Get rid of your cell phone or Blackberry.

10. Stop wasting money on new rims for your car. They look like crap anyway.

11. Your children really can get by without all the NFL, MLB and NBA authentic gear.

12. Stop buying lottery tickets.

13. Stop grabbing all those little nickel and dime items at the grocery store checkout.

14. You CAN survive without bottled water.

15. Your children know you love them -- you don't have to buy them a toy every time you go to Wal-Mart to prove it.

16. You're not required to give the begging high schooler money for their class trip.

17. Stop buying Girl Scout cookies, magazine subscriptions, chocolates and all the other vastly over-priced things that kids want to sell you for some 'important' cause.

18. Wash your own car.

19. Do your children really need 65 Christmas presents?

20. If 1-19 doesn't save enough to pay for your healthcare, stop by at one of the gazillion fast-food places you visit and ask for a part-timne job. 10-15 hours a week there should help you get over the hump. Plus, you'll save on beer.

Americans Want Jobs, Not Handouts!
Denmark Vesey offers, "Really? The last time I checked, the free market is currently in control and is the catalyst for the health care debate."

Not true. Our healthcare system is extremely hamstrung by years and years of regulatory pile-ons, archaic laws, gerrymandering and franchising.

Try this, you can buy car insurance off of the internet just as cheaply as any company or employer. Plus, you can conform the insurance to your needs, eliminating costly coverages that you do not need.

Try that with health insurance. Corporations can get it cheaper, plus get a tax break to boot! All brought to you by Government meddling.

Of course, Obama thinks more meddling is the cure for meddling. You know, like they did with our banking system: regulating Fannie and Freddie to give away loans until the market collapsed, then come to the rescue with even more regualating.

Raising taxes for healthcare only increases the size of Government and poverty. How does that help? If begging is your idea of improving self, then maybe that works for you. Not me.

My guess is that most Americans want jobs more than handouts. Lower taxes, thereby creating jobs and puting more money in the consumers' hands, fix the laws to allow more free market and let each consumer determine their own healthcare with their own money.

Jeez, Louise
I think I'll make up a new diagnosis: Waditis. You know, when your panties are a bit bunched in the wrong place.

Imagine for a moment a world without any doctors, any nurses, any hospitals, any healthcare of any kind. If you lived in such a world, how would your behavior be changed? Would you live a bit more carefully? I bet you would.

Did it every occur to anyone that "universal" healthcare may be the most health destroying thing there could be? Maybe, health care should be expensive and difficult to access. Maybe, that would force folks to take better care of themselves.

As a physician, I resent the notion that any of you have a "right" to my time. As a citizen, I regret the fact that we have gone down this path of "free health care for all."

Prior to Medicare/Medicaid, 3% of costs were administrative. Now, thanks to government intervention, administrative costs are, about, 35%. How's that workin out for ya?

Mac Moore has it right!
More meddling by the government to try and fix their meddling, is like raising the spending limits for someone who can't pay their credit card bills.

If someone made a complete and total mess building a doghouse, no one in their right mind would suggest they start building homes. Yet the government has run Medicare slap into the ground and millions of people want them to takeover the entire medical industry.

We do in fact live in the Twilight Zone.

OSW, I read your posts, and find them
very good.

Thanks.

"Marie
Location: FL
Reply # 72
Date: Jun 18, 2009 - 11:16 AM EST It's Jobs & the Economy Stupid
Hey Rick-- you said "Yet it was Bush who passed Medicare D which will cause a $Trillions deficit in 20 years." True, but Bush took a lot of heat from conservatives for passing that POS legislation. Correct me if I'm wrong here"

You're wrong Marie. My whole group of posts is to draw attention to a system that does work in its way, and Old Social Worker puts a good bit of light on it, and I want to seek discussion of how to make the revenues already collected to be spent for good purpose.

I found data from the Congressional Budget Office which gives a time-line of revenues and expenditures for Medicare, Mecicaid, etc...

It clearly shows that Reagan started a doubling the cost and deficit of the programs.

It clearly shows Clinton eliminated the deficit completely, but also doubled the cost. He paid for it though, as I say, there was no deficit to all this when he left office.

Since W got in and out the whole business again doubled in cost and deficit. The deficit is triple any previous deficit with $641 Billion in the red.

SO, draw conclusions as one will. It's not all clear, and it is very much an inter-connected set of programs, as OSW clearly states.

Part I

Continued Part II
I want to see a huge change in the way the money is allocated. I know for a fact that a very serious office of grants specialists will make the money be spent within strict guidelines. There is a problem once these programs get their funds, but they wont get away with monkey business long when a very good grants specialist is on the job. I know, my wife is one and one the job. She saves Minnesota money, that's a fact.

So, whatever can be done, it does require hiring some very good people, with very good skills at watching over the programs.
I truly do not think this is being done as intended, or else the whistles being blown are not loud enough, or enforcment is extremely weak.

I think the later.

Uninsured by choice or compulsion
Larry Elder is correct about many of the young and often single people choosing not to pay for health insurance. I could have purchased it in my 20's for abt $25 month, but didn't consider it a priority.

However, adding dependent coverage for a few dollars isn't as easy. Depending on employer contribution levels (if any) it can amount to hundreds extra! That said, Mr Elder's piece is sound and worth consideration.

What is killing health care are 1) co-pays for office visits and drugs, 2)hospital costs, and 3) major diagnostics (CT, MRI, & PET scans.) There are other reasons I won't mention here. 30 years ago the system was much simpler and was almost entirely private fee-for-service (no networks) and office visits were not much more than today's co-pays.

If Obama and the "Health Care For Everyone" crowd get their way, your care will be dictated by a bureaucrat rather than a physician. Waiting periods will be common and
you will NOT be happy!

Healthcare Reform
Yah... lets change the entire health care system, the greatest healthcare system in the world, because 10-15 million people don't have it... that makes a whole lot of sense.

If these people would just step back and THINK for a moment they would realize that following this clown Obama around like a puppy dog is pretty idiotic.

Health Care not a right
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...Life comes with the health care bit. I don't trust the fed to do a good ob on health care, but insurance and pharma cos haven't either. Someone has to do something.

Maybe a combo will work. I have a pre-existing conditiona and am fairly young in my 40s. Insurance cos don't want to touch me because I have a bad heart valve. I got Rheumatic Fever as a kid even with fine health care. Stuff happens, and if I weren't in a group plan can you imagine what open heart would cost me. It would bankrupt my family.

And this is literally a case of life or death. What would you suggest I do die because some insurance co doesn't want to cover me. Tell me what you think I should do...Imagine being bankrupt by a burst appendix, etc ridiculous...

Hey, Larry
It's called minority rule.

WHY Obama HIDES his BC
Joseph Farah of WND has written:

#Perhaps something in that birth certificate, if it indeed exists, would contradict assertions Obama has made about his life's story. These might even involve his true parental heritage. Without a real birth certificate, no one really knows who his parents were. So it is ridiculous even to speculate about whether citizenship could be conferred upon him by his mother, when we don't know for sure who his mother is.


#Perhaps it reveals a foreign birth, as Hawaii allowed for in 1961 while still issuing the "certification of live birth" we have seen posted on his website.


#Or perhaps it will show just what Obama has claimed all along – a birth in Hawaii to two officially non-citizen parents, for the purpose of establishing "natural born citizenship" under the Constitution.

Want to find out more about our FAKE POTUS then go to http://www.worldnetdaily.com ...

USPatriot56

Rowly....Once a marine Always
Rowly- good point,the illegals! Calif. spent over 8 billion dollars on illegals and my wife was terminated in the local school district
after 20 years!

Once a Marine- Where ya been? I thought you
re-enlisted? And was training for a secret
mission?!

Elvis

What is next?
If the Democrats are able to succeed with their plan to give us socialize medicine, what is next? Universal food? Nationalized housing? Socialize clothing? What has the government ever done that could not have been done better by the private sector?

You First Obama
An excellent rule of life is to never force anything upon someone else that you would never allow to be forced upon you. Aren't you tired of people making laws that apply to you and me but don't apply to them? Laws in a Democracy are supposed to apply to everyone, with NO exceptions, yet we constantly see double standards and do absolutely nothing about it. We complain to each other but that never goes anywhere. The trouble with silly putty is that he promised too much to too many factions all vying for control and now he has to produce at the expense of the American people. I doubt that any of his contributors expected nothing in return, that's not the way it works in the political world. All who invested expect a return many times their investment and the universal health plan is one way to get it. That's another reason why Acorn and like groups will receive billions to continue the Liberal push for control of everything. When you are being taxed for the very air you breathe, you will find out first hand who will supply the funds for universal health care, you!

Clifton L. West

Obama BC
I know this is cross posted everywhere.

Normally when arguing parentage its the father in question not the mother. I don't believe that the maternity here is in question unless you know something astounding. It was the mother who was the US citizen in this case. No one I know is arguing she was a citizen(that I hear of), so that makes him a natural bornone as long as she filed the paperwork which it seems she did. He could have been born in timbuktu as long as his mother is a natural born citizen which everyone seems to agree she is that makes him one. So who cares where he was born where his mother was born is what really matters. I haven't heard she was born out of country but if I am wrong please feel free to correct me.

Wrong Denise (Taxachussets)
In 1961, for the child of a US citizen mum to be considered as US citizen, one of the following would need to be true:
(1) mum bore the child in the US (no age/residence-in-US requirement)
(2) mum was OVER 19, AND had lived in US for FIVE YEARS (any time) after her 14th birthday--a combination which WOULD NOT have been fulfilled by Ann Dunham (1942/11/29-1995/11/07) at the time of her son's birth (1961/08/04).

zapdoodat

I don't side with republicans. I side with conservatives.

Oh I see. You believe all republicans are conservatives.

Well many people who watch MSNBC think the same thing.

The fact is not all republicans are conservatives. Not all Democrats are Liberals.

The problem in this country is Liberals in both parties.

Priorities
I own a small business and have about 35 employees. We offer health insurance to managers that is partially paid for by the company, and also have a lesser plan for crew that covers a good deal of what may ail them and covers medication. The crew plan costs them about $45/check. Not cheap, since most who work for me are in their 20's. We also have a more expensive plan that covers more.

However, most of my crew want nothing to do with spending their money on health care. But it's available. I have one employee who inquired about the plan this week. I told him to go on line and check out the details of the plan. He told me he only has Internet service on his cell phone and it doesn't work well on there. He and his wife each pay $15 for Internet service on their phone and they just use it to check the weather and play games.

He told me the insurance was too expensive. I told him to cancel the Internet on his phone. He tells me that he'd rather have the cell phone service instead of the insurance. And this is a kid (former military who was asked to leave the service because of mental health issues), who doesn't like the benefits he gets at the VA, therefore his inquiry in to our insurance.

So his priorities are Internet service on his cell phone versus health insurance. And we're to fork over our hard earned money to cover people like this????

Screw Obamunism!

Aspacia
Your post reflects that you wanted to maintain a certain lifestyle and afford healthcare (horses and dogs are expensive). I don't blame you. What must be understood is the reasons costs are so out of control are because of gov't intrusion, poor policies (untrammeled illegals, many of whom have learned to sue), and litigation. National health care does NOTHING to cuts costs and everything to increase the existing problems.

For example, there is one illegal student from Ecuador in my school (public high school) who is completely wheelchair bound, severely brain damaged, in diapers, cannot track, cannot communicate at any level, and has seizures from time to time. This girl's IEP includes:

Physician visit 3x per week
Personal nurse all day
Personal aid all day
physical therapy 3x per week
occupational therapy 3x per week
speech therapy 3x per week (yes, she doesn't speak)
Her own bus and driver
Plane fare to Ecuador on breaks (one way)
A kid like this can be in school until the age of 23. Accommodations like this are not unusual. By the time all is said and done, there will be a couple of million spent on ONE person. Any questions as to why things are so expensive?

Numbers not insured.
Numbers are bogus, what has not been a lie from this bunch of incompetents in DC.

They throw out numbers like dirty dish water.... All LIARS in Demo party plus their leader....

elvis
Rowly....Once a marine Always
Rowly- good point,the illegals! Calif. spent over 8 billion dollars on illegals and my wife was terminated in the local school district
after 20 years!
************************************************
The illegals will always be a force to contend with. Neither party has the guts to do what should have been done years ago. SEAL THE BORDERS and deport everyone who is here illegally.

If one is here illegally,he is already a lawbreaker and therefore,a criminal. Should he be rewarded for breaking the law,while American citizens are jailed for breaking the law?

Medicare a,b &d
and medigap insurance cost me $301.35 each month. This covers me only. Many seem to think this is all a gift from the government. The amount paid by the government to providers of service is pitiful. I needed electrocardioversion to restore a normal heart rhythm and was happy to have a cardiologist in charge shocking my heart to a 6 second stop before it restarted in a normal rhythm. The charge was $514 but the gov't thinks it is only worth $128.79 and that the 80% payment of $103 is all the cardiac specialist deserves. I hear they may be willing to pay an additional 10% in the universal plan. Just think of all of our brightest young people rushing to medical school plus specializing in order to make that tremendous economic payoff!

Larry, could you be missing the point?
The healthcare challenge needs to be addressed in a different way. Some would say that health care is a free market failure. Sometimes we need to admit certain things. We spend twice as much of our GDP on health care than Germany does. Our healthcare expenses contribute to or cause possibly 2/3 of bankruptsies. The German system has 80% of their people in the public system (not a universal, gov't paid for system), and 20% pay for the private. The cost for the 80% is based on income level. Everyone pays, and everyone is covered! What could possibly be wrong with this? Lawyers have caused our system to fall apart along with other factors, I'm sure, such as the Medicare, Medicaid fiasco. Why can't we do things reasonably in this country anymore? Lawsuits, dishonest leaders,craziness like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack etc.etc. I am really worried about the future for our children and grandchildren. May God help us all see the mess we are in! grammyo

re: Daniel
a few questions/comments for the doctor here.. First of all, what makes you state that you should not be forced to give away your services for free? What in the world makes you think you would work for "free" under a single payer system? Are their any doctors chained to their offices in other nations that utilize single payer? The question is not whether you will get paid.. it's by whom. Right now, your payment is negotiated through a series of private insurance company buerocracy, who may "force" you to take payment for certain services at levels you may or may not agree with. What will change under single payer? Instead of multiple companies negotiating payment to you for service, you will negotiate payment with at least one single payer entity, with the potential for private "riders" for those who can/want to pay for it. Your profit? Do you think your profit would a) increase or b) decrease if you didn't have to pay for an administrative staff to waddle through hundreds of group and individual policies and their coverages. You could actually *gasp* keep more of your hard and well earned money for you, the actual health care provider. Finally, as a physician, do you feel an insurance company bean counter, whose job it is to reap profits for the insurance company is better likely to inform you of your medical treatment options to a patient than the dreaded Washington "beurocrat" whose incentive is public welfare and not profit? As for those who dread the Washington "buerocrat", let me compare motives with the insurance company claim adjuster: private insurance companies ration care based on their profit and bottom line. Government makes more money when there are more healthy tax payers paying taxes. Whose motive better serves public health?

re: Daniel
Also, Doctor, please examine this situation: a person covered with health insurance visits your practice, pays the agreed copay for the visit, your office bills their insurance, their insurance refuses to pay (even though it was a covered service) and you, your office, and your patient spend months if not years wrangling with the insurance company for them to pay the bill they should have paid to begin with. Does this cost you a) more money or b) less money to pursue.. and what are your costs in pursuing this, added over the length of time? And let's assume that the insurance company then just cancels the policy on the patient and refuses to pay, period. You send the bill to the patient, they can't pay and go bankrupt. You get nothing. What if you were instead, guaranteed payment, under single payer?

I don't understand doctors crying about their costs when a very simple solution to relieve some of their costs is getting rid of the insane administrative overload in dealing with a lot of of negligent and scammy insurance companies to get your money from.

private vs public
The fact is, "conservatives", by proxy of the Republican party, ignored the health care situation for years. Someone here posted that Dems blocked legislature of some potentially cost savings initiatives. Since Rep's where in power with full control of Congress and Executive branches for a majority of the time, why were these initiatives not brought through? Why do Rep's support the private insurance industry instead of moving for more direct patient to doctor payment for services?
Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-big business in most situations. I even support private insurance for things like renters, home, car, and other forms of insurance. Heck, for full disclosure, I work in IT for a major auto insurance company. But the fact is, people are not cars, homes, or other commodities that can be "indemnified". Private insurance rejects applicants for pre-existing conditions, no matter what: read Denise of MA, she states she was rejected for rheumatoid fever in her youth and she is now 40 and still can't get coverage. Supporting private industry does not mean excusing bad industry practices and abuses reguraly perpetrated on consumers by private health insurance. Wake up cons! Being ideologically pure doesn't mean pretending bad practices don't exist and refusing to accept any reform in the name of ideological purity.

private vs public pt2
I am against "universal coverage" if it means forcing individuals and businesses to purchase worthless private insurance. I am in favor of insteading paying premiums to bad companies to "ration" my care, that we pay taxes to cover all, spread the risk pool, and pay for health "care" and not insurance. As an alternative, I would support legislation banning private health insurance except for catastrophic care (with a requirement that they honor their contractual obligations) and using tax dollars to fund public health clinics, along with student loan coverage for doctors and nurses who agree to work in these clinics for a set amount of time.

private health care horror stories
for those that think we have a "great" system that needs no reform, please visit this link and view stories from "real" Americans of all stripes and their battles with health insurance:

http://www.familiesusa.org/tell-us-your-story.html

New conservative motto???
"Obama's HellCare--just say NO!"

i

I'm sick of the whining
According to the US Census Bureau report "Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007" 21% of the uninsured at the time were "foreign born non citizens." Even if you could convince me that health insurance was a "right", non citizens just aren't my problem.

20% had incomes over $75,000. Sorry, but if your income is over $75,000 and you can't afford your own health care you have a severe problem handling finances.

To the poster who paid $350 for two sets of lenses: you got rooked. Next time I recommend shopping around a little more and hold down your own costs.

What we do know.

9 million are illegal aliens.

If it ain't broke
The answer for the 45 million is simple.

The govt imposes a payroll tax similar to Social Security. Everyone pays it and is enrolled in Medicaid. For the 85% who have insurance, they simply report their private health coverage on the 1040 and receive a tax credit for all premiums they paid during the year.

This would get all the deadbeats--who'd rather spend their money on fast women and slow cars--paying their share.

No new programs needed.

Smarti
your posts just show how confused you are. It's not even worth arguing with you point by point your so far off the reservation.

I will say however, you have no right to take my money without my permission to pay for anything just to make you feel better. No right.

The grand assuption
...here is that there is only ONE solution here and government is it. The lack of thought and courage here is astounding. Of course there are always ways to improve large institutions such as 'health care', doctors, hospitals, specialists, etc.

Its a large enterprise and there are bound to be some flaws, but lets engage the spirit of the American way, not the cynical socialist marxist way. With our sleeves rolled up we can solve the problems that exist within an over-all high quality system through competition (some regulation) and incentive.

There's no reason to think government will improve the system at all, change it yes, but improve it? Doubtful. Handing over to government is 'giving up' and I don't see a need for it.

Smarti
for every gap you find in the private system you can as many or more in the government controlled counterpart.

Again, your bed of assumptions is incorrect.

cost

Obama keeps saying he wants to "pay as he goes".
He wants the health program to pay for itself, claiming that we will save a lot of money on the uninsured.

The current cost for each of his new covers will cost $62,500 each.

If he gets his way - at those figures, only ten million of those uninsured at $62,500 will only cost 62.5 trillion.

Way to go Obama!!! That's really saving.

Pat, did you do the math or what?
Is your post perverted baiting to see if some liberal corrects you as if the cost is smaller and therefore Ok? It's not an Ok cost, OBVIOUSLY!

So, to correct your math, I tell you and any who read without checking the numbers, that your total is supposed to be

$625,000,000,000 or $625 Billion.

Again, obviously this is NOT and OK cost.

I've posted about the costs being the
issue and not the number of people.

We currently have a budget near $3 Trillion from the W administration, for Medicare, Medicaid, etc... Go look at the numbers listed in a yearly timeline from the Congressional Budget Office.

Of this $3 Trillion $641 Billion is deficit.

If this deficit were funded, it would have to be from raised taxes. If it were cut, it would have to be to curtail Medicare D and many other programs. This is why Clinton raised taxes for these and cut spending for these programs. He balanced the budget for these programs. W inherited a balanced budget. He destroyed it!

So, if the liberal king of the NeoCon Conservative world is to be shown the error of his ways, Bush's budget deficit has to be fixed. It will have to be done again with a combination of tax increases and spending cuts. I suggest very minimal tax increases of say $100 Billion. That's roughly $500 dollars a year for every working American. Which assumes whe have 200 million employed Americans.

Then the cuts. Medicare D is too expensive, it has to be rolled back. Either by forcing the end of high cost drugs, or cutting drugs to patients who need them. The later means some will die. So, is that later the answer? To some of you Ayn Rand types it is the answer. To me it is not. I want the drug companies to be forced to make an exception to the drug cost for Medicare D recipients. Once they've had their drug on the market of 5 years and recovered either all or part of research cost, then it will be offered at a very reduced price to Medicare D recipients. Others have to pay the usual.

That means the drug companies have to be trusted to do the right thing. That is not their history, persay. So, it is worth the cost of another department to handle watching the companies prices. It's still cheaper by many $Billions than allowing Medicare D to go forward the way it is now.

What direction should be taken.
Stop the national health care debate and force the issue upon cost.

I think Obama is playing an ace up his sleeve approach. He's been talking about cutting costs, and then starts pushing unprecedented national health care. Too big and too unweildy. Some are bitting, taking the bait down their throat. I'm goint to tell you to stop.

Write instead to your Congressional reps to stop this debate now, and instead fix what we have. It's already too expensive, and too unweildy. I blame W.

You blame whom you want to. The data supports the blame squarely upon W.

For grins, assume a new focus were upon
regulating what we have. Cut spending by $500 Billion, with the caveat that we reallocate $10 Billion to a new regulatory commission. They need full power to obtain all data from the HMO's, the drug companies, all health care providers, and those supporting the industry. Armed with a vast data base of data, they can issue critical reports of cost and cost containment. Like any corportation, it needs statements to run effectively. What's not happening is we don't have a commission solely responsible for healthcare cost. So, instead of national healthcare, we need national oversite.

Still socialism? To bad!

You ninnies of socialism think people will behave fairly, that somehow the market will magicly correct prices by the choices people make. The evidence proves this is wrong. This market is broken when cost is in the equation.

To glibbly retort time and again that it's the best system in the world wastes time and effort. It is not the best system if it's run on deficits and waste.

We will correct that only via controls. Controls that only a government commission will have any power to report upon. If you don't see that, then you don't understand any vital part of running a corporation. If you fall all over yourself arguing that government is the problem then you're a broken record and need to be put in the trash. Shut up and listen to reason.

Health Care a Right ?
You have aright to keep yourself healthy. No one, including me has a right to health care. Tyler (#6), I'm not even sure if we have a right to police or fire. That's what the 2nd admendment is about, Right to Bear Arms. If we had a right to a fire department, every community would have a paid fire dept. We have a right to stay healthy. A right to protect ourselves. A right to obtain affordable healthcare not government healthcare. A right to have shelter, not own a home.


Blame W? Heck Blame both Dems & Repub's. Both parties suck !

No Peter, you're wrong about the "right"
to bear arms. It is not for policing yourself. It is for "common defense". That is so you will be prepared to join the militia necessary to repel invaders, or those who want to rebel against the lawful government by use of force.

Police and fire are the part of the Constitution that would deal with pursuing happiness. We have all agreed that to be happy we need to feel safe. We therefore join in a common government to raise taxes in support of services we deem make us feel safe.

This does not include owning guns. You buy all the guns and ammo allowed, maybe hundreds of them, and hundreds of thousands of rounds, and feel safe, then good for you. But, those are not to replace police.

Of course you can defend yourself, that is not the point here, so don't bring it up.

terry
Thank-you- you made my case. Children and many citizen are dying in hospitals. Why they lack $$ and health insurance. The providers CARE for those who can pay. Those who cannot pay do not receive adequate care.

reply 28 VA Obama BC
You are correct on the 5 year clause.

That brings him back to the fact he was born in Hawaii which was a state at the time, and therefore makes him a natural born citizen based on the fact he was born in the US.

There is some who argue he was not born in HAwaii. I have no proof otherwise. I someone can prove he was bron in Kenya or elsewhere they may have a case.

So on the 5 year point I stand corrected.

On the taxachusetts part. The line is old so please get a new one. We are about 25th plus or minus a few on taxes. Property costs are the real killer here.

Okay
Now to work on a viable plan:
1. No free medical treatment for illegals-deport them.
2. Repeal the 14th Amendment to disallow anchor babies. Heck, I had to pay for health while in school, as do most citizens, so should illegals.
3. Physicians and nurses deserve a great wage considering their expensive education which they must repay, work and physical stress they must endure. Then there is the case of frivolous lawsuits and ambulance chasers who bombard our airwaves.

terry,
I do not believe any conservative would tell another human being what they can or cannot do. You make too many assumptions regarding the uninsured.

We must work on these problems which will free up huge amounts of $ for citizens

Leave it to Congress
Leave it to Congress to build legislation that will ask 85% of Americans to change their health insurance plans, benefits, payments, provider, doctors, you name it - to accommodate 15%. And then we learn that many of the 15% don't want health care. Congress is proposing spending $ 1 trillion dollars to insure 45 million Americans. You do the math. It's insanity.

Health care for 45 million "Americans"
I believe Obama should let "Americans" vote on this very important issue!

Hahahaaaa,--You can bet your bottom dollar every "Legal, ILLEGAL AILEN" (plus an endless line from the GRAVE YARDs) would be headed to the polls to vote for this boondoggle!

There are 300 million "Americans" including children in the U.S. and you can bet there would be at least 320 million voters casting ballots, Just like the Iranian elections,(smile) and you thought they weren't paying attention!

How do you think Barack Hussein Obama made it to the White House???

Denise (of MA) cannot see obvious
The COLB posted on Big Zero's campaign website is a rather obvious forgery--as it wasn't exactly common in 1961 for a state to have such documents produced in a printing-shop (Arial font--exactly how See-BS was pwned in 2004), more commonly the important information on it would have been typed (typewriters until at least 1979, even Selectrics, generally did not do fancy-fonts such as Arial or Times-Roman).

VA Obama BC
I googled a copy of a live cert of birth from LATimes blog that the campaign claimed was Obama's with a bday and a filing date. The type except or the pre-printed cert was mostly upper case looks rather like a typewriter to me. Again I am no font expert, so I will defer for those who are.

I would assume unless its been sealed for reasons I cannot imagine unless you must be a relative someone could obtain the BC from official sources in the HI archives like you can in every state in the union.

In MA they go way back and you research BCs over 100 years ago. Again I am no font expert but it looked pretty much like any other BC to me. I was born a few years later and part of mine looked like a print house job. The name was typed or hand written and I was born in NY.

This is Common Sense!
Larry,
Your column is educational and fantastic common sense. Something Washington does not have!
Paul

re: Marlson
Please dispute the points I made that you find are incorrect. You insulted me and then provided absolutely nothing of substance other than the tired conservative crank of "you're not entitled to anything from me". Look genius, once again: no one is stating single payer would take anything from you. You would be paying into one large single insurance group instead of paying into a smaller group. The administrative costs and overhead of administrating one single payment plan as opposed to hundreds, if not thousands, will save on administrative costs both by the payer of services (single payer) and by the doctors and hospitals performing treatments. At what point have you been led to believe docs and hospitals would be providing free services?

Health Care Plan
We are against this Obama's Health Plan even though out of each pay check, $448.00 is taken out for just my husband and my daughter. Why the sky high price for our dental, medical, and vision?? Those who go into hospitals and walk away after getting help not paying a thing--the highest for that is illegal immigrants--think Obama and his cronies should look at that before wanting more of us workers paying more taxes for illegals, and hospitals costs.

"Real Americans" and health insurance
Since many conservatives accuse those of not being able to afford health insurance premiums and deductibles because of mismatched priorities and "laziness", and assuredly these offenders are Democrative voters.. please read the following link to see how "Real Americans" feel about health insurance.. and the damage it is doing to "Real Americans" who you cannot from this story reduce to stereotypes and derogatory terms.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105299 368

So my
government will take money from me and give it to citizens of another nation.

Is this Vichy France?
Have we lost a war?

Most people have to pay for services, like health care at the ER. But some do not. Why the special priveledge? Isn't that descrimination?

Take a moment and dial 411 on your phone and listen.
Yep, we've lost a war.

This entire article is stupid....
Oh you have health care, just go to the ER. Absolutely brilliant... Let's send people to the ER, when for years they have been saying one of the main reasons for the increase in health care cost is because people use the ER like it's their Doctor's office. BRILLIANT!!!

I don't think that the HC system should be taken over by the Gov, but damn straight I do think that their should be a very basic HC coverage that everyone is entitle (yes ENTITLED) too. Free immunization to children paid for by the gov. ALL CHIDREN. While I am against illegal immigrants, I don't need their kids spreading diseases to mine, so their covered too. The more expensive proceedures that 90% of us never need would be covered by the private sector HC companies, reducing the cost. Most people only ever need to visit the doc twice a year. Keep them out of the ER!


The Second Amendment
Rick,

You are very very wrong about the meaning of the Second Amendment. It has absolutely ZERO to do with making sure the citizenry is prepared to fight in a militia for the government. If the government wants you to fight they will provide you with the weaponry with which to do so.

The Second Amendment was to insure that your government COULD NOT impart a totalitarian control over its citizens. It grants you, the citizen, the right to protect yourself from the government.

There is a reason the power of the government was so limited when set forth in the constitution by our founding fathers.

For those that seem to think we live in a democracy, let me disabuse you of that notion also. The United States of America is a REPUBLIC...the majority isn't supposed to be able to "rule". When the majority can decide to vote to use your wallet...you cease to be a free society. If I was to walk into your home and reach into your wallet and take money, I would be arrested and put in jail.

You want the government to do just that so you can have "free" health care...only they call it taxes.

Want faster care
at your local emergency room? Just wear a cap with a "U.S. Border Patrol" patch on it. Many of those waiting for care will decide they don't want to wait any longer! Voila! Faster care!

Rick,
I'm sorry about your sister with Lupus, I truly am. But why do I have to pay for her medical care?

I know that sounds callous but that is what the whole thing comes down to. Someone has to pay. Nothing is free. The question is, who pays and how much? Obamacare WILL NOT be free. There will be a huge tax increase or massive deficits or both. NOTHING IS FREE PEOPLE. There will be a price. There is a finite amount of money and an infinite number of good things that need to be paid for. Who gets to decide how that money gets spent? Me, the guy making the money or you the guy that needs it? What right do you or anyone else have to take food out of my kids mouths? Clothes off there backs?

Some people are going to come down with horrid deiseases and die. It may be sad but that is the fact. The only guarentee in life is death.

Before anyone...
...starts with the BS about greedy conservatives, heres a few well documented facts:

•Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

•Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

•Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George W. Bush.

•Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average.

•In the 10 reddest states, in which Bush got more than 60 percent majorities, the average percentage of personal income donated to charity was 3.5. Residents of the bluest states, which gave Bush less than 40 percent, donated just 1.9 percent.

•People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

These facts come from a book by Arthur C. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University, published "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism."

I have given over ten gallons of blood in my lifetime. I give a regular donation to St Judes, my church and the Red Cross. I give my time to the local Boys and Girls club, the PTA and the Girls Scouts. How about you libs?

illegals not included
article leaves out 12-20 million illegal aliens included in the 45 million number
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