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Friday, May 01, 2009
Jonah Goldberg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Necessary 'Shortcuts'
by Jonah Goldberg
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In his press conference Wednesday night, President Obama offered a nice little sermonette on "shortcuts."

Asked about his decision to release the "torture memos" and ban waterboarding, Obama said: "I was struck by an article that I was reading the other day talking about the fact that the British during World War II, when London was being bombed to smithereens, had 200 or so detainees. And Churchill said, 'We don't torture,' when ... all of the British people were being subjected to unimaginable risk and threat. ... Churchill understood, you start taking shortcuts, over time, that corrodes what's best in a people. It corrodes the character of a country."

It's a nice, honorable statement. But there's not much evidence it's true.

It's unconfirmed, but the article Obama referred to is probably a combination of a 2006 op-ed by Ben Macintyre in the Times of London and a recent blog post about it by the Atlantic's Andrew Sullivan. Macintyre focused on British Col. Robin "Tin Eye" Stephens, the wartime commander of Camp 020 whose motto was "never strike a man," a code he didn't always succeed in enforcing. But even many of Stephens' preferred techniques -- sleep deprivation, psychological cruelty, etc. -- are routinely denounced as "torture" by Bush administration critics like Sullivan.

Macintyre doesn't mention Churchill. That's all Sullivan, who writes: "Churchill nonetheless knew that embracing torture was the equivalent of surrender to the barbarism he was fighting."

Typically, Sullivan's emotions are getting ahead of his facts. Churchill's preference for humane treatment of German POWs under the Geneva Conventions had more to do with ensuring reciprocity from enemy armies. Al-Qaida isn't a signatory and isn't interested in such reciprocity.

One reason Churchill might have eschewed putting the screws to detainees in 1942 is that he already knew what they could tell him about the bombings. The Allies knew where the airbases were and had cracked German codes years before.

Regardless, Churchill and Great Britain didn't quite take the firm stand against "torture" that Obama and Sullivan suggest. During the war, the Brits ran an interrogation center, "the Cage," in one of London's fanciest neighborhoods, where they worked over 3,573 captured Germans, sometimes brutally. The Free French movement, headquartered in London, savagely beat detainees under the nose of British authorities. From 1945 to 1947, Col. Stephens himself ran the Bad Nenndorf prison near Hanover, Germany, where Soviet and Nazi prisoners were treated far more brutally than those at Guantanamo Bay. Stephens was court-martialed, and cleared, for some of the alleged atrocities.

Of course, none of this remotely made Britain "equivalent" to Nazi Germany.

Regardless of the debatable facts, the real problem is this idea that "taking shortcuts" erodes the character of a people. One hears this constantly, but it is almost invariably asserted rather than demonstrated.

First, this argument assumes society knows about the shortcuts. After all, if the shortcut in question is kept a secret, then it's hard to see how the "character of a people" will be corroded (or that such methods will be used as a "recruiting tool"). Alas, the idea that the government should be able to do things in secret to fight a war is out of vogue today.

The more significant shortcuts are the public ones people can't ignore. Churchill ordered the firebombing of Dresden just 12 weeks before the end of World War II. No one knows for sure how many civilians were burned alive, but tens of thousands surely were, in no small part to deliver a psychological blow to the Germans. If Churchill could have waterboarded a prisoner to avoid that -- or stop the Holocaust -- would one shortcut have been preferable to the other? Why? Or why not? Obama gives no sense he has an answer to such questions. You can ask the same questions about the shortcuts that flattened Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Did these shortcuts erode the character of the American and British people? If so, how? And what does it say about the "greatest generation" Barack Obama invokes relentlessly? And, again, what of the shortcuts we don't know about?

Churchill was a heroic leader. He did right as best he could in a bloody mess of a war. But he made countless horrible-but-correct decisions in the process. For instance, he refused to warn residents of Coventry that the Nazis were going to bomb, lest he betray the secret that he was listening to Nazi cable traffic. After the war, he advocated the shortcut of summary executions of Nazi officials.

It might seem otherwise, but I'm not making the case for what some people see as torture. I'm simply noting that war is always about shortcuts, all are horrible, some are necessary. If Obama doesn't understand that, let's hope he never has to learn it.

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About The Author
Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.
 
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Hey cris!
If waterboarding isn't torture, why has the United States Government prosecuted so many people for it? Why did Sheriff Parker in San Jacinto Co. Texas and his deputies go to prison for doing it? Why were US Army soldiers court-martialed for it in Vietnam and the Spanish-American War? Why did the US and its allies (Britain and Australia) try and HANG Capt. Mastuo Komei of the Imperial Japanese Army for doing it?

Next you're going to tell me that arson isn't against the law.

You are confused Jack David
Your use of highfalutin analogies misses much of the issue. First and foremost your argument infers that water boarding is torture. This incorrect assumption makes all of your and Obama's gibberish nonsense. If water boarding had never existed and someone in the Obama administrated came up with it: a 20 to 40 second(max)a procedure which results in absolutely no permanent physical to the murderous prisoner- Obama and his leftist radicals would applaud it as representing a wonderful Liberal advancement in intelligence gathering.
Second, People like you and Obama think that when we are kind to evil minded individuals, they will reciprocate in the same way. This expectation is incorrect. These people are not impressed with kindness and only respect strength, anything else is seen as weakness to be taken advantage of. Yes torture, which the United States does not do, is abhorrent. However,thinking that a person, representing no particular Country who is destined to murder as many stranger civilians as he can, under the guise that it will allow him to have sexual relations with 72 virgins, qualifies for the protections prescribed in the Geneva Convention treaty, are delusional idiots.

Why Charles Martel Can't Read
Putting aside the fact that the vast majority of the "terrorists" locked up in Guantanamo never fired a shot in anger, but were rounded up by tribal bounty hunters or in dragnet arrests, the small number who might have taken part in hostilities would fall under this category until a competent tribunal found otherwise:

"4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war."

Obama Is Right
The general principle upon which Obama stands is correct, as is the one on which neocon Krauthammer stands: Torture is evil. It goes against "who we are as a people." (We are a people with exalted, exceptional moral standards.)

Similarly, the bombing of civilians, for any reason, is evil, pure and simple. It was done--because it could be done. It was a shortcut. "Expediency." As Mike Tyson in his day said, "I do what I have to do to win."

However, our adversaries feel that they are fighting for their lives; they, too, with the light of conscience, must realize that the mass-killing of civilians is evil--but in war you have to do horrible things.

So, Obama remains right; Krauthammer is surely correct; and from their Nietzschean-Islamist perspective, the jihadists feel they are justified in doing what "they have to do." Expedience requires them to compensate for their various and sundry weaknesses. For example: a surprise attack against civilians--to shock the enemy into a certain awareness.

One can take as strong a stand as one likes, but one will have to ignore equally strong stands taken by other determined human beings.

We have to think this thing through in a holistic way. Obama is right.

John
"
Goldberg the NeoCon...Shut Up!
Jonah endorsed the founding father of sodomy "marriage" and the 50 dollar abortion Mitt Romney for president.

He is a counterfeit conservative...merely a shill for the liberal GOP.

Go away Goldberg you liberal hack.


***
Be careful what you wish for. There may be
an election in a couple of years and no one
marks x on the Republican ballot.

Jane:
"How dare Obama invoke the wisdom of Churchill after sending back the gift of Churchill's bust to Britain? "


Grrrrr. What an idiot. Let me see, the bust
of Churchill was on loan from Blair to Bush.
Why didn't Bush handle the return?

David:
"2. At what point in a disease pandemic would you order the borders with Mexico closed or limited to critical traffic and US citizens returning to the US?"

***
How about - sometime after the 1st American
death? Maybe even - not until the death toll
from the flu reaches around half the proportion of any normal flu season, which is well over 1000.

Oh wait - you are talking about the Mexican
border. Sorry, I should have done it yesterday.

Questions for President Obama

Questions for President Obama – If the MSM Actually Asked Questions

1. You have made it a point in your foreign policy to reverse the disliked image of the US and “go-it-alone” practices. Given your landmark meetings with foreign leaders and speeches on foreign soil – Why has the violence in Iraq increased every month during your Presidency and why have the deaths of US military increased every month during your Presidency in Iraq?

2. At what point in a disease pandemic would you order the borders with Mexico closed or limited to critical traffic and US citizens returning to the US?

3. With your campaign promises to bring transparency to the Federal government budget process and accountability on spending, including reforms on earmarks – when did you decide that a Presidential earmark of $68 billion to the UAW and transfer of control of Chrysler and GM to the UAW was essential to the US economy?

4. That makes the earmark of $4 billion in the recent budget for ACORN seem trivial, doesn’t it?

5. Your administration has highlighted the synergy that Fiat brings to Chrysler with the Fiat experience in hybrid and high fuel efficiency. Your administration has also applauded Ford for the growth in sales of the Ford Focus Hybrid. Doesn’t support for the Fiat-Chrysler compete directly with Ford in that segment and mean two weak competitors rather than one strong automaker?

6. Your stimulus package to cities and states lets them kick the can down the road for two years - with the stimulus bubble they don't cut spending as much as they need to for balancing their budgets - How do you cure spending addicts by giving them more taxpayer money to spend?
sage1 - nyc-usa

Reinstatement of Gitmo Tribunals

The Obama administration is moving toward reviving the military commission system for prosecuting Guantánamo detainees, which was a target of critics during the Bush administration, including Mr. Obama himself.

Obama administration officials — and Mr. Obama himself — have said in the past that they were not ruling out prosecutions in the military commission system. But senior officials have emphasized that they prefer to prosecute terrorism suspects in existing American courts. When President Obama suspended Guantánamo cases after his inauguration on Jan. 20, many participants said the military commission system appeared dead.

But in recent days a variety of officials involved in the deliberations say that after administration lawyers examined many of the cases, the mood shifted toward using military commissions to prosecute some detainees, perhaps including those charged with coordinating the Sept. 11 attacks.

“The more they look at it,” said one official, “the more commissions don’t look as bad as they did on Jan. 20.”

Several officials insisted on anonymity because the administration has directed that no one publicly discuss the deliberations.

Administration officials said Friday that some detainees would be prosecuted in federal courts and noted that Mr. Obama had always left open the possibility of using military commissions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/us/politics/02gitmo.html? _r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

Which is what I have argued all along when it comes to Miranda, the rules of evidence and discovery, along with the right to examine (and publish) classified information and cross-examine witnesses.

100,000 More Troops To Afghanistan


Robert Gibbs said in an interview earlier today that it is very likely that another 100,000 combat troops will be necessary in Afghanistan in the next 6 months to one year. He admitted that it would be a "hard sell" politically.

So, Anti-Iraq War people, how do you feel that Obama is going to send more men and women into the "meat-grinder" of Afghanistan? Didn't the Soviets do the same thing and get dramatically defeated?

C'mon. Quit discussing what happened in the past. Look to the future. What are you going to do about this?

Were the men and women, who died and were maimed in Iraq, somehow more important than the men and women, who have died or will die and be maimed?

Put up or STFU. You stand with me on this or all of your arguments have been disingenuous.

Geneva Accords
Jelp wrote: "So no, detaining powers are NOT allowed to summarily execute anyone. US forces are also prohibited from carrying out summary executions. But then, facts are to right-wingers what silver is to werewolves."

Tell that to the US veterans of WW II in Europe who employed a strategy of "take no prisoners" (well, not for long anyway). Certainly far from all US troops (or our allies - even the Russians), but I've talked with several who admitted they shot Germans who surrendered. It was simpler, it didn't slow them down, and the average German soldier had no knowledge which was militarily useful to Military Intelligence. I guess it was just a "shortcut".

Oh, were they not "allowed" to do that? That really made a difference, didn't it?

Apollo...
...except that we don't even torture at all.

Or as Ann Coulter recently wrote, as relates to one particular tactic: "with plastic walls and soft neck collars, 'walling' may be the world's first method of 'torture' in which all the implements were made by Fisher-Price."

A reading of the UN Convention Against Torture (including the reservations of the United States made upon ratification) is enlightening on this point.

To our boys at Gitmo, President Martel says, unpack your bags, you aren't leaving.

To our boys at CIA, President Martel says, carry on.

And God bless the lot of you.


+++

I hope
They have the "Truth Commission" I will enjoy watching SanFranNan squirm and Barry won't like the implications to him and War Powers Act.

GO FIGURE
We torture terrorists to extract critical life saving information and that makes us no better than those who kill innocent civilians to terrorize democracies into submission to radical freedom crushing totalitarian Islam. Go figure.

Truman Derangemment Syndrome
A follow-up to Wednesday night’s Kinsleyan gaffe: Jon Stewart says he's sorry, he’s just not sure why he’s sorry. The closest we get to an explanation is that the decision to drop the bomb was “complicated,” but of course that’s why Cliff May brought it up — to draw a parallel with the decision to waterboard terrorists. The moral calculus about how far to go in roughing up jihadis to save how many lives is difficult, as was the calculus about how many lives would be saved in the long run by incinerating Japanese kids in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end the war. The fact that Stewart is a hard no on the former yet considers the latter iffy suggests a mentality I simply can’t fathom. Is it just a matter of Truman having been a Democrat, whose motives were therefore pure, as opposed to Bush supposedly getting his Republican rocks off by torturing terrorists? Or is it that Truman’s already been vindicated by history and isn’t safe to criticize the way Bush still is?

He could have tried explaining but instead he mugs his way through the whole bit. Which is what he always does when he gets in a jam while playing serious pundit: Clown nose off, clown nose on.


http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/01/jon-stewart-hey-sorry -for-calling-harry-truman-a-war-criminal/

Jelperman, wrong on Geneva and smug
From the Wikipedia on the 1949 Conventions:

Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:
4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces.
4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a valid identity card issued by the military they support.
4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.

If US forces are prohibited from carrying out summary executions of spies and saboteurs (i.e., those not covered by Article 4), it is because we have chosen to be, not because the Conventions require it.

But then, facts are to Leftists what silver is to werewolves -- to coin a phrase.


+++

Goldberg the NeoCon...Shut Up!
Jonah endorsed the founding father of sodomy "marriage" and the 50 dollar abortion Mitt Romney for president.

He is a counterfeit conservative...merely a shill for the liberal GOP.

Go away Goldberg you liberal hack.

Nam65-66-NY
Spot On!!Ive said many (maybe too Many) times to the various *Knuckle Polishers* whining about Torture, Maltreatment, Collateral Damage, etc. that War is Hell.. And it's not something to be entered into with due caution..It IS HAZARDOUS TO HEALTH!!
By the way EVERYBODY has seen the pic of the S. Vietnamese Police Honcho shoot the VC Suspect in the head, right?? Ever see the one(s) of VC Honchos sitting in the open doors of *Slicks* at 2500 ft and being booted out until someone "remembered". Didn't Happen, right??
CHEERS!!

shortcuts
How dare Obama invoke the wisdom of Churchill after sending back the gift of Churchill's bust to Britain? He could have put it in the basement until he was out of office if it somehow offended him. It doesn't surprise me that he wasn't reading a learned document,rather a blog.

FDR Had "Charisma", Too!

Obama should remember what happened to FDR who was a "charismatic leader", who on the afternoon of December 7, 1941 learned of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. There had been prior economic sanctions in the form of freezing of assets belonging to Japan by the US, but Roosevelt had done his best to keep the country out of Pacific War and WII, in general. The morning of Pearl Harbor he awoke to a level of isolated tranquility. He went to bed a changed man.

Let us pray that we do not have survive our own "Day of Infamy" and World War.

Ms. Jelperman
You are obviously a military historian of extreme knowledge and also have access to highly classified data held by The United States.
You correctly quoted a portion of Article 5 of the Geneva Convention, but forgot to mention just who the persons in Article 4 were referring to. There are parts A and B with multiple subheadings, and they all refer to military connected personnel, to put it in simple terms. In todays' litigation obsessed world, every minute detail or word is very important, so knowing the terrorists of today are not signatories of this important treaty makes a great deal of difference as to how it is applied or to whom.
I'm sure this was just an oversight, as you already knew this and wanted to be correct. Thought I'd clarify it for you.
You're welcome.

It Is Amazing!

Every single day, I am more and more amazed by how ignorant Obama is and how little of world history he knows.


My god, along the sides of The Tower in London there remains what is left of the housing in which the Brits kept dozens of German POWs. You can walk right by, nearly see the Thames, and clearly understand that prisoners were under the path of German bombers. The whole City and southern part of the country LIVED in torture every night for over a year.

Under his view of the world Rudolph Hess would have sustained years of "torture" at the hands of the Brits.


marcmat
The O can be as empty headed as he wants to be. Most of the voters, having been educated in government schools, know little; and the media won't correct The O, in public or otherwise.

Why would he ever fact-check?? If it strengthens his point, he might as well say it. Anyone who suggests he has spoken in error is merely a right-wing extremist hack.

Necessity, legality, and morality
Why is it so important for everyone taking part in this debate to come up with some sort of moral justification for torture? Torture is sometime necessary, but it should not be called moral. Neither should there be an effort to apply legal criteria for classifying some actions as torture and others as not. When it is necessary to engage in torture, then morality and legality have been left behind. Ideally, torture should be kept strictly secret--it should not be the subject of a public debate.

Unfortunately, many of my fellow liberals mistakenly believe that the immorality of torture should make torture forbidden, while conservatives strain for legal criteria. Neither approach is useful. Some TH readers have given as examples of actions that should be acceptable the bombing of Hiroshima or the torture of enemy POWs or suspected terrorists. No, these may--or may not--be necessary. They are not moral and they should not be legal.

Back in the 1930s, George Orwell wrote something to the effect that the freedoms we enjoy are made possible by the actions of rough men whom we peaceful citizens would not ever want to know. That gets things just about right.

Call Obama's Bluff !

Obama is reluctant and indeed afraid to Tie Up His Administration in a dragged out , muddied emotional Partisan Tarbaby,that will run into The War Powers Act and The Military Commissions Act of 2006 not to mention The Culpability of Democrats.

Dare Obama's Administration To Investigate Waterboarding !

Charles Martel, learn to read!
From the Geneva Convention:

"Article 5. The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."

So no, detaining powers are NOT allowed to summarily execute anyone. US forces are also prohibited from carrying out summary executions. But then, facts are to right-wingers what silver is to werewolves.

We Dare Obama To Investigate !

Democrat House Intelligence Committee Members Nancy Pelosi, Jay Rockefeller and Rosen Weismann ,AIPAC Spy Case Tainted Jane Harmon were briefed by The C.I.A. on Waterboarding.

The C.I.A. Briefed Congressional Leaders 30 times on Waterboarding.

Call Obama's Bluff !

We Dare The Obama Administration to Investigate Waterboarding.


We Dare Obama To Investigate !

Democrat House Intelligence Committee Members Nancy Pelosi, Jay Rockefeller and Rosen Weismann ,AIPAC Spy Case Tainted Jane Harmon were briefed by The C.I.A. on Waterboarding.

The C.I.A. Briefed Congressional Leaders 30 times on Waterboarding.

Call Obama's Bluff !

We Dare The Obama Administration to Investigate Waterboarding.


Jelperman fails on every point
Japan *was* a State Signatory of the 1929 Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Violations committed against Allied PoW's were war crimes, and Japanese violators were prosecuted after the war.

Captured Al-Qaeda are not covered by any of the Geneva Conventions because they are illegal combatants thereunder. They do not wear uniforms; they serve no state authority; they do not carry their weapons openly; they hide amongst civilians; they intentionally strike civilian targets; etc., etc. Allied forces are within their authority under the Conventions to execute such spies and saboteurs summarily; we choose not to. But make no mistake: captured Al-Qaeda have *no* rights that we do not choose to give them. You have merely chosen incorrectly.

Goldberg's example postulating the torture of one individual in order to arrest the Holocaust is merely made in extremis: contrasting harm to only one to prevent or end harm to countless millions. Your failure to grasp that does not speak well of you.

Yes, Robert Heinlein made his living and his reputation writing science fiction, but he included political issues in his fictional works and wrote non-fiction as well.

But please continue to indulge your proclivity to argue against straw men. Just don't expect anyone to consider your opinions worthy of adoption.


+++

"We don't torture, we hang 'em"
That's what persuaded German spies to co-operate, watching their friends swing by the neck.

Obama 'spins' it into:
"had 200 or so detainees. And Churchill said, 'We don't torture,' "

{..American press corps immediately set out to find out which article the President was referring to...that article quoted extensively from an article I had written back in 2006, about Colonel Robin “Tin-Eye” Stephens,.. who banned violent interrogation techniques against captured spies.

Stephens’s prohibition on torture had been transformed into official Churchillian policy.
He never exactly said “we don’t torture”, but he did not need to.

Stephens ... used every trick to wring information from captured enemy agents, including the very real threat of execution. Some 16 Nazi spies were executed during the war.

Yet Stephens’s methods were psychologically brutal. “Figuratively,” he said, “a spy in war should be at the point of a bayonet.”

.. Stephens’s techniques worked superbly. ...most co-operated fully, a few refused and were hanged and dozens were persuaded to become double-agents.}

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6201378.ece

Our country does not execute or threaten to execute. The whole world knows it. Maybe some would confess if they witnessed the stretching of their friends' necks.
Not all of them have a death wish.

Clones Everywhere
Just letting everybody know that I underestimated the cleverness of my little clones (that's right, I said clones as in more than one). I now have a Mini-Me Wanna-Be posting from Indiana as "13 Bravo." Please note the space between the 13 and the Bravo. This is one of the telltale signs of an escaped clone. Other signs can be posting from anywhere but Indiana, cronically misspelling words, poor grammer and in the most recent example, apparent homosexual desires to be with "a."

This bothers me because I don't want "a" using fear of gays as an excuse to avoid our meeting.

Hey Paul
I did answer the question: Torturing one man, a hundred men, a thousand men or more would not have stopped the Final Solution. It wouldn't have even slowed it down. The only thing that would have stopped it is what did in fact put an end to it, and that's the defeat of Hitler's armies in Eastern Europe (where Auschwitz and the other camps were located) by the Russians. Anything short of that would have been pissing up a rope.

But please indulge your childish, one-handed fantasies based on bad movies, idiotic TV shows and other nonsense that thrills you in a darkened room in your parents' basement. Just don't base government policy on your brand of wank.

I can't spell
It's obvious that I am not paying close attention to my writing. I reposted this on several threads and on most I misspelled the first word in my first post. It should have read "I'm sorry..." but I goofed. Sorry about that. Too much time writing and depending on spellchecker; where's that coffee? Ah that helps.

Hey Jelp,
Grow a pair, would you?

War is hell. Just ask our guys who were captured by the North Vietnamese.

Regarding the Japanese, they may not have been signatories, but there was also no evidence they were publicly beheading American prisoners.

And you should answer Goldberg's question. In the theoretical scenario he specified, would torture be OK?

I'm So Proud!
I sorry for going off topic, but I just want to let everybody know how proud I am. I have been cloned. That’s right I have joined the esteemed ranks with GunnyG; I have my very own Mini-Me Wanna-Be who calls itself (we haven’t determined the gender yet; I’m kinda afraid to touch it) 13Bravo. Only this 13Bravo is from California, while I, the original honest to gosh 13Bravo hails from the great state of Indiana.

So I would like to warn everybody to be careful when reading anything from Faux 13Bravo; first check which state the post comes from, next see if the words in the post are spelled correctly, then check to see if the rants make any sense (remember, I may be crazy, but I at least think before posting).

Finally please beware that Faux 13Bravo hasn’t been potty trained yet. It keeps going on the coffee table then rolling in it’s mess; we tried to rub it’s nose in the poo, but it actually seemed to enjoy that.

Thank you for understanding.

More infantilism
Quoting a bad sci-fi writer like Heinlein in a political discussion? Why not quote romance novels, too?

You people need to grow up!

Logic is for Jonah Goldberg what garlic
is for vampires.

The fact that Al-Qaeda didn't sign the Geneva Conventions doesn't give license to torture the group's members. The US and British didn't torture Japanese prisoners even though Imperial Japan never signed the Conventions.

Second, the fact that some prisoners may have been tortured by the Allies during WW2 (a) doesn't make it right and (b) doesn't mean it works. The regular forms of interrogation do work, so the only reason for the torture is a combination of a desire for revenge as well as sadism.

Goldberg begs the question by asking if torture would be OK if, by torturing one person, the Nazi Holocaust could have been prevented. The question is so ridiculous, it would be flattery to call it stupid, and shows that Jonah Golberg has little connection to the real world. The only person who could have stopped the Final Solution was Hitler himself (and that might not have been enough), and the only way to get hold of him would have been to win the war against Germany, which would have cost countless lives (as it did in real life). Yeah, I'm sure it would have worked -about as well as clapping your hands will bring Tinkerbell back to life.

Shortcuts
Poor President Obama, he doesn't know right from wrong. Nor can he keep up his charade of being far-left and pandering to, no celebrating, his far-left supporters while attempting to portray himself as moderate and bi-partisan. It is obvious he will take short-cuts where he wants. Check out him attempting to circumnavigate the Rule of Law by brutally attempting to dictate to holders of secured debt of Chrysler, take a shortcut to his goal. His goal? Control of Chrysler and GM in conjunction with his owners, the unions, represented here by the United Auto Workers. If he attempts a shortcut with taking over Chrysler and GM what's next? This is a frightening man who has most of the media eating out of his hand. The citizenry of the U. S. hasn't a clue. Luckily many read the Wall Street Journal and watch Fox News. But the average American is still propagandized and "believing". It will end.

http://www.periodictablet.com

Good and bad
Every country has done good things and bad things. By picking and choosing (and in Obama's case, outright making up) facts, it is possible to make any case you like.

Sol... #1
Mooslims don't use water for torture. They use swords.

Liberals who complain that America should not have used the atomic bomb to win WWII are CRO’s (Copul*ting Rect*l Orifices).
Using the bomb ended the war in a few days, and saved the lives of a million American soldiers and almost the entire population of Japan.
The American plan for invading Japan consisted of landing our soldiers on one island and invading from there.
The Japanese plan consisted of putting as many defenders as possible on the same island, including old men, women, and little children armed with pointed sticks. Since American soldiers would have been reluctant to shoot little children, many would have been wounded or killed by them. Had they shot children, our soldiers would be called war criminals by liberals.
Japanese not killed by American soldiers would kill themselves for failing the Emperor. After how many years, would the war be over, with one million Americans and the entire population of Japan dead?
Using the bomb, the war ended in days, one million Americans and almost the entire Japanese population lived to continue their lives. Liberals hate this part.

In the Real World
Red Stater, your comments on unilateral disarmarment were well stated. As Heinlein advised, "Never appeal to your enemy's better side, he may not have one. Invoking his self-interest will give you more leverage." The flaw in the arguement limiting foreign policy to an endless series of negotiations is that success in negotiation requires rationality on the part of all parties. During the Cold War, we could negotiate with the Soviets since while they were evil, they were rational. We knew that they broke every agreement they entered into with us, but at leasst they put on an act of compliance. They did this not to curry favor in the arena of world opinion, but to avoid being reduced to radioactive rubble. Today, we have radical Islamists lining up to become suicide bombers in hopes of scoring 72 virgins. Anyone who is hellbent on self-immolation cannot be reasoned with.

cookie cutter view flawed...
Jonah is right on in his article. The far leftists among us don't live in the real world. They have the ivory tower mentality of academics sitting behind desks in a university.
The fact is most of the decisions in war and under extreme duress are of the "lesser of two evils" rationale and less of the "following a perfect scenario of right and wrong". This is because the " view of what human nature is" of the far left is flawed. Conservatives on the other hand see man as flawed and in need of limits. They (far leftists) believe men are capable of being "perfect or perfectible" and this belief clouds their view of reality. They see those of us on the conservative side as enemies of progress and consequently we on the conservative side are imperiling their drive to perfect man. IE: If we would only reason with evil it would turn around and follow the natural dictates of the far leftists view of things and repent. The problem of course is that there is evil and evil people out there who have ideologies basically immune to such mamby pamby techniques- in fact they scoff behind the backs of the utopian lib and use the libs naivete to prepare for the next attack. History is replete with this stuff. The true conservative knows man is flawed and MUST have checks and balances and that when evil comes a knocking we must attack and be on the attack. Torture ( although this word is debateable in its larger sense as the goal for the freedom side is not pain but adherance to peace-whereas the terrorist tortures to inflict pain and to scare the freedom lover) becomes sometimes necessary because evil people will sometimes (many times) not cooperate when the lives of potentially millions are at stake. In other words the two views of human nature are different and that's why the far leftists and the true conservative can never see eye to eye.

Rock Strongo - shortcuts?
Well said!

What about THIS "shortcut"?
If "shortcuts" truly corrode the character of a people, how about the "shortcut" of ending a baby's life rather than letting it be born and giving it up for adoption?

Truth factor.
It would be nice if reporters would actually be brave enough and smarter and question the President accuracy when he gives one of his famous speaches.Fact checks are out there,they just have to be acessed and read.The new admistration promices a lot accuses much and is very vague on their sources. So much for transparency.

The High and Mighty
It seems that a great many people from academia look down on those that have many hard decisions to make about protecting our beloved country. "No torture under any circumstances for any reason", wow what a nice platitude.
Let's not confuse what we would desperately like to see us do "under any circumstances" with what may need to be done to protect a life in a rare circumstance. Thank God for George Bush who recognized the difference.
Obama espouses the platitudes of academia nicely but has not been tested like Mr. Bush. Let's pray that he will withstand his test as well as Mr. Bush did.
I sincerely doubt he has the backbone for tough decisions based on his abortion stance, his bankruptcy stance vs unions, his Rev. Wright stances, his 4 day decision on freeing the Capt. from pirates. Obama is merely a "reader" of notes not a thinker, despite what our slimy media wants us to believe.

DanNV notes ...
Obama "dismissed the success (of interrogation) by declaring that other, less harsh methods could have produced the same thing." Obama may be right -- such techniques are right up his alley.

Suppose we promised KSM that we'd give him a $2.4 million grant for his non-profit's midnight basketball program in Tora Bora and that we could get his cousin Ahmed a sweetheart 3,500 square foot Section 8 house for $225 a month. Then we could promise him a low-show professorship at the State University of Kabul with tenure, health coverage and a nice 6-figure pension. If we did just that, I'm sure we'd have Osama in custody by now.

Necessary 'Shortcuts'
This entire sweep of interrogation techniques and "torture" is a charade for the purpose of misdirecting the American people away from the lousy econmy and making them feel good that with this President we're all nice guys. What about partial birth abortion isn't that torture of Al Qaeda proportions. When will we wake up and realize Obama is a narcicisst hell bent on his own image at the expense of our nation both the living and the unborn?

Game theory and torture
Whatever it may do to our character, using torture when the enemy does makes sense from the standpoint of game theory. That theory says that the best way to proceed is to start off good and then to mimic what your enemy does. The tactic of being good all the time doesn't work so well, nor does the tactic of being bad. You can influence your enemy by imitating the tactics he uses. If he uses torture, then so do you. Once he realizes how terrible it is and backs off, so do you.

The Liberal Rationale
Liberals have a "yeah-but" for everything that doesn't meet their position on the issues. When Obama was confronted with the facts that "enhanced interrogation" not only produced results but those results saved countless lives, he dismissed the success by declaring that other, less harsh methods could have produced the same thing.

How could he know? What experience does he have in the interrogation of Islamic terrorists? What example can he point to that corroborates his assertion? He couldn't know, he has absolutely no interrogation experience and there is no example he can use.

Perhaps the next time our intelligence folks obtain life saving information the hard way, they should sit on it. Better the plot to kill thousands of Americans is successful rather than the blot on our image in the eyes of nations that wouldn't lift a finger in our defense.

Getting back to Churchill and Obama
Where was his admiration for the man when he discourteously sent back the bust of Churchill to the English embassy? Theater, just another example of Obama theater without committment.

RE: Ohimesama
" Correct me if I'm wrong, but
didn't the British take blindfolded captives in helicopters and threaten to throw them out over the Channel?"

If they did, it wasn't during WW2. They didn't have helicopters in service until after the war.

The whole debate is tortuous in itself, at least logically. The whole thing boils down to the hubris of Obama So convinced is he of his own charm and ability to sway his "enemies" (if he even believes he has any outside the Republican party) that he seems obsessed with the notion of unilateral disarmament as a path to peace. It is the stuff of movies: if we just show the people opposed to us we mean them no harm, they'll come to love and respect us, because, in his world, all their grievances are squarely rooted in American hegemony. It's all our fault, you see. Consequently, he appears to be hellbent on taking us to a gunfight with a wiffle bat in one hand and the other tied behind our back.

It's nice for our enemies to know that we won't bomb their neighborhoods or mosques, where they can hide themselves and their weapons; we won't stay past January 20, we won't torture them or even make them uncomfortable for more than 10 minutes, and in fact we'll even provide them with a list of things we won't do to them so they'll know what to expect. We have told them which areas we're vacating and which areas we won't go into. We have told the Iranians we will restrain Israel from destroying their nuclear program. We have shown North Korea that the UN is the weak cardboard cutout of a national force we all thought it was.

Fortunately for us,our enemies have provided video of what they will do to us. Just ask Daniel Pearl. If we could, that is.

One Quibble with Joel
Joel, you state: "Treaties that are signed by the President, and consented to by the Senate; become part of the Constitution, and are as binding as the rest of the Constitution, and its Amendments."

Not so. After ratification, treaties become part of US law, not part of the Constitution. All laws in effect in the US must comport with the Constitution. Any law that conflicts with the Constitution is invalid.

Under the present management in DC, this principle may get abused even more than it already has been. We have the disgusting spectacle of Justices quoting foreign laws in opinions and Obama has made it clear that he is quite willing to surrender large parts of our sovereignty to "international law" and opinion.

Left wing hypocrisy
Not to mention Britain's beastial treatment of captured IRA terrorists. Funny how this never bothered the American Left. Or the excesses of the communist regimes, or the islamofascists.

Maybe it's because this is all really about partisan political gain and using every tool possible to destroy the credibililty of the Repubicans.

Elements of the American Left have been trashing america as racist/fascist since their days of infatuation with Marxism. The campus radicals of the 60s are now in charge and their values haven't changed one bit. They truly DO hate this country...they hate the middle class who they view as uneducated low-IQ rubes who are too stupid to know what's good for them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but
didn't the British take blindfolded captives in helicopters and threaten to throw them out over the Channel? (I think they actually did chuck a few out, too...) If I remember correctly, most of the time they were only hovering a few feet above the water, but of course, the captive wouldn't know that... Some of them squealed and squawked and talked.
You do what's necessary, even if you don't like it. Kind of like holding your nose and voting because it's necessary, not because you like the candidate.

Sol Afflict Us
"If I understand correctly, Mr. Goldberg has come down decidedly on torture being necessary to run a well-planned war."

It is clear that you lack much of any understanding of reality because only a complete moron could come to that conclusion. As Goldberg concludes, "It might seem otherwise, but I'm not making the case for what some people see as torture." Obviously, he is pointing out a serious problem that liberals (Obama and you, in particular) have: getting their facts straight.

"A question, Mr. Goldberg: (If the enemy (Al Qaeda, North Korea, Chavez, Barney Frank) submit American captives to waterboarding, say, 200 to 250 times in a month, would you consider that torture?"

Here's a question: if a captive is deprived of sleep for one night, is that torture? How about if it is for 100 nights? Is there a difference? If so, perhaps there's a difference between what actually happened and the dimwitted completely-divorced-from-reality example that you provided.

Oops, got so wordy,
I didn't finish the thought.

Radical Mohammedans are not the sheeple in this country; they don't drink kool aid, have NO respect for human life (including their own) and words on paper or from the velvety mouth of a self-serving political hack with a massiah complex mean absolutely nothing to them. I have no doubt our enemies are laughing their butts off at this FOOL we've elected.

Can't add anything, Joel. Very good.
Obama thinks we're a bunch of kindergartners and he's teacher. I've never seen such a narcissistic man in my life. Radical Mohammedans are not the sheeple in this country; they don't drink kool aid, have NO respect for human life (including their own) and words on paper or from the velvety mouth of a self-serving political hack with a massiah complex.

Monday was the biggest insult to our collective intelligence so far - scaring the stuff out of NYC for a photo op, and claiming no knowledge of it. Strains all credibility with me as POTUS MUST know where those planes are 24/7 so he can get his butt on board at a moments notice and get outta town.

Too bad! Now Barry can't use those photos as give aways to his buddies, Chavez, Ortega, the Castros or Ahwannajhihad OR use them for re-election.

Another $329K down the crapper! Chicken feed for this guy.

Against Shortcuts?
From a guy who went from community agitator to the most powerful office in the world in less time than it takes to become assistant manager at your local Starbucks.

the ghetto mind
is a terrible thing to waste in the White House.

If Obama thinks taking short cuts erodes
character, does this mean he will rethink his redistributive short cut to wealth schemes?

The Mountebank of the White House
The Charlatan-In-Chief once again vividly demonstrates he is nothing more that an empty-suit, Chicago machine-politics community organizer hack, one with no education of consequence, and one who lacks the experience and education to make sense of world history that can be compared or applied to modern circumstances and situations.

He might be a product of the Ivy League, I would imagine, however, that what little he might have learned was more the result of "training" than real education. Of course, the fact that he steadfastly guards against the release of his academic records makes it impossible for anyone to see first-hand what he was doing in his years as an undergraduate.

oBUMa is all about the sound-bite. He is all about finding out what the public wants to hear and giving them plenty of it. None of his statements need to be factual, considered, honest or applicable, they just need to be uttered with that imbecilic and ungrounded sense of moral superiority he presents to the ignorant participants in the Cult of Celebrity. They are much too dense, ignorant and absorbed in the throes of self-entitlement to recognize the evil before them. For those who do recognize the evil, it becomes closer and closer, day by day, to being "too late".

THE MOTHER OF ALL SHORTCUTS
has been accomplished by our liberal left government in the last 100 days 'Short Circuiting' our Country by circumventing our Constitution.
They are pulling the plug on our Freedoms and Rights to rewire the Power of the People that America was built on into One all encompassing 'Power Station' of government.

Exactly
"Churchill ordered the firebombing of Dresden just 12 weeks before the end of World War II. No one knows for sure how many civilians were burned alive, but tens of thousands surely were, in no small part to deliver a psychological blow to the Germans. If Churchill could have waterboarded a prisoner to avoid that -- or stop the Holocaust -- would one shortcut have been preferable to the other?"

I had this precise thought as soon as JG mentioned Obama's "Churchill" reference. How much more empty headed can "dear leader" be? And how much more ignorant can the segment of our population who buys into Obama's drivel be?

Good grief.

In WWII...
...we killed 96 THOUSAND men, women, and children in one night,with conventional and fire bombing of Tokyo!Much more than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atom bombs.But that was the "good war".

"War is hell"...William Tecumseh Sherman.

The winners write the history books.


most anti's have it it wrong.
Whethers its a parent torturting a person to find where a child is buried alive or a countries leader, if it is determined to be the only way to get the info... then all forms of torture are obviously justifiable.

At that moment if surivival of that child is more important than morals or the life of the criminal in all situations.

Besides we are excluding some of our own recent leaders who did do similar to this torture to get 'intelligence' in WWII despite the reality that it was considered wrong.

In our own case, it may have helped us gain intelligence that helped save lives and help tip the balance of WWII toward us.

If if saves usa lives, the morality of not doing it, is not as relevant as those who chose to do die 'upholding' their principles, instead of surviviving over the terrorist.
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