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Tuesday, September 09, 2008
Ed Feulner :: Townhall.com Columnist
India: Land on the March
by Ed Feulner
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Mumbai, India -- When I told friends I would be visiting India, the immediate response was, “Why? China’s the country of the future!” Well, I’ve visited China many times. It was time to meet some of the business, academic and governmental leaders of the world’s “biggest democracy,” as India bills itself.

India is large, almost beyond imagination. Its three largest cities, Mumbai, Calcutta and Delhi, dwarf New York, Los Angeles and Houston. More people (more than 42 million) live in those three cities than in the two dozen largest U.S. cities combined.

Every number in India seems staggering. More than 100,000 new engineers, for example, graduate from its educational system every year, and there are 120,000 Indian students studying in the United States. For India to meet its own internal needs for college graduates, it will need to establish scores of new colleges and universities over the next decade.

By 2020, India’s total population is expected to exceed China’s, making it the world’s most populous nation. It’s a land on the march. In the early 1990s it launched critical economic reforms, and subsequent governments have endorsed those reforms, speeding their country into the modern era.

As The Heritage Foundation’s “Index of Economic Freedom” shows each year, more economic freedom (an open economy operating under the rule of law), generates more economic growth. That, in turn, means a higher income for the average person. This is exactly what’s happening in India.

No, I wasn’t dazzled by the high-tech centers of Hyderabad and Bangalore, because I didn’t have time to even visit them. But I did hear from private bankers, business leaders, educators and government officials. Their universal commitment to pushing reforms and investing further in the Indian economic miracle impressed me. For half a dozen years now, India has had a 7 percent to 9 percent real economic growth rate.

Yes, India continues to face daunting challenges. Almost half the population still relies on subsistence farming for its livelihood. Grinding poverty still afflicts the majority of its citizens. The caste system remains. But plenty of articulate, able and principled Parliamentarians are shaking up the system.

India is a better place to do business than China, according to U.S. Ambassador David Milford. It’s true that the notorious Indian bureaucracy remains a stumbling block. But continuing reforms and the rule of written law is making the country more business friendly and supportive of individual rights.

Those are just a few reasons why the United States is now India’s largest trading partner ($42 billion last year alone) and the largest foreign investor in India. Meanwhile, Indian firms are now becoming worldwide companies. The Tata Group, planning to produce a mass-market car to sell at $2,500, also bought the Land Rover and Jaguar automobile lines from Ford. It has recently invested several billion dollars in major manufacturing projects in the United States.

And Tata has also opened up two “call centers” in Ohio and Florida. That’s right -- an Indian firm is hiring Americans to man the phones.

India still has a long way to go. Its educational system needs greater input from international colleges and universities, but that’s illegal. And the financial structure is monopolistic and non-competitive. Still other reforms are required across the board. Hopefully, pending bills before Parliament will lead to reform in all of these critical areas.

After a week in India, I can claim only a superficial set of impressions about this complex society, and the important bilateral relationship between the U.S. and India. But it’s enough to convince me that if India continues on its reform path, it will become a very important player on the international scene, and a vital advocate for freedom around the globe.

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About The Author
Dr. Edwin Feulner is president of The Heritage Foundation, a Townhall.com Gold Partner, and co-author of Getting America Right: The True Conservative Values Our Nation Needs Today .
 
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One glaring ommission
India is also one of the most dangerous countries in which to live in the entire world if you are a Christian.
Hindu extremists are killing Christians on a nearly DAILY basis and Hindu police and government officials do nothing to stop it.
Mr. Feulner, you might acknowledge that reality in the midst of your glowing praise.
Christianity is the most persecuted faith on earth and the media REFUSE to talk about it. WHY?

Bright Lights, Big City, Squallor
The opening of this article reads the same way. Because a city has expanded to infinity with population doesn’t make it a great city. In fact, it normally makes it the exact opposite. The huge cities in places like Pakistan and India are really centers of squalor and poverty, teaming with disease and filth. An occasional block with modern businesses is like an oasis surrounded by desert.

India does, in fact, deserve a hand of applause for beginning the climb out of poverty and 3rd world squalor, but it has not been completed yet. Beginning the climb is one thing, but having enormous pestholes of cities is something that does not warrant anything.

Long way to go...
India has indeed started it's long journey towards prosperity, considering where it started, it has a long long wy to go.
India has major problems for which complicated solutions remain to be seen. Overpopulation, cast system, religious confrontation-animosities and short on domestic natural resources and space.
Of all the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China) Brazil is by far in the best position: No major race issues, no religious strife, no natural disasters (No volcanoes, Hussicanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes, Snowstorms)yet immensely rich in natural resources,energy independent and plenty space. Brazil will surprise everyone in coming years as THE "breadbasket" for the world and, perhaps, the most truly indpendent country in the world.
Brazil might also be the most liked country as it has no enemies foreign or domestic.
It's media never, ever attacks Brazil, unlike the US where about 80% of our media badmouths our country.
While the BRIC countries are busy constructing a friendlier business/cultural environment our politicians are pushing for yet more taxes, regulations and "big brother" failed schooling.

India for Indians!!
India's on the march, so let's tell Indians to stay in India, thats novel, eh?

Indians habitually abuse the H-1B so called "temporary worker visa" program, which was originally designed to bring Einsteins to the USA but has devolved into an Indian immigrate to the USA (along with 20 of your relatives) program. H-1B program is a scam and Indians are laughing at us over it. Indians are known for their hyper business scams and their use of the H-1B program follows their cultural pattern perfectly. Furthermore, Hinduism is basically incompatible with Western/American history, values and traditions.

I say "India for Indians and the United States for Americans!"

Is This a Joke?
Let's cut the sacred cow manure. What about famed arranged marriages? Is that part of the freedom agenda? The reality is, Mr. Feulner, that women continue to be nothing more than chattel in Indian society. Ever think that maybe their religious beliefs and lack of truly democratic governing principles like religious tolerance, equal protection under the law and free speech have invalidated applicability of the term "democracy"? Ever think that maybe the Hindu religion as practiced there is directly responsible for the grinding poverty and that without throwing off its shackles, they will never truly become a democratic government? Thomas Jefferson wrote, echoing the sentiments of the founding fathers, "All men are created equal." Do you believe India has any chance of democratic advancement without adopting the same values? Your version only works if by "democracy" you mean economic democracy. China fits the same "democracy" mold as you pose it, but few would describe that country as a democracy.

I wouldn't even care so much except for the flood of H1bs to the U.S. infecting our society with the same ideas because our own corrupt government is bribed to the hilt with dirty money. Indians don't care about and don't share American ideals, only money. Do I need to remind people of the couple who enslaved the 2 women in the NY home? Gee, is this the New India that worships freedom? You can have it Mr. Feulner, I don't want it here.

And a Question for Mr. Feulner:
Who paid for your trip to India?

Methinks I smell a biased rat here.

India's current economic growth
is actually the result of a flawed blessing.

Gen 12:3 -- promise given to Abraham
Gen 27:29 -- repeat of same promise through Isaac to Jacob
Num 22:12 -- Baalam forbidden from cursing Israel, as God had blessed Israel.

Basically, those that curse Israel must take curses and those who bless Israel will get blessings. However, God did not say that even with these blessings the results of abominable practices (most evident in Hinduism) would be escaped.

1947-1992, India (in attempt to placate large Muslim minority as "vote bank"--note that this population in 1951 was larger than Canada and Australia COMBINED) refused to have diplomatic relations with Israel--unquestionably "cursing". Growth started in 1992 when same party decided to start having such relations ("blessing"), though for the wrong reason (pipping-at-post, opposition, who had called to start such).

For Alecto--India DOES have a democracy in the TECHNICAL sense of mob-rule. I can actually remember a retreat message in 1996 where Joshua Daniel (born in Kakinada) preached that "elected republic" (commonly misconstrued as "democracy") only work with Christian principles--which surprised me greatly, at first glance (deeper analysis proved this accurate).

svpallava
A lot of misinformed people confuse the terms democracy and freedom. A pure democracy can become one of the worst tyrannies on the face of the earth if you are not one of the 51% controlling the country. On the other hand, a pure dictatorship under the auspices of a benevolent king can result in the individual citizens having the most freedom there is.

That being said, it doesn’t usually work that way. Most democracies remain relatively free, while most dictatorships are the model of tyranny. What really makes the difference is a written constitution or charter that is designed to protect the liberties and freedoms of ALL of the people and that limits the power of the government over the citizens. Along with that written document must be a system in place, be it a court or tribunal of citizens, that makes sure that ANY laws passed or within the bounds of that written document.

What the U.S. is missing now is the tribunal that assures the laws are within the bounds of the document. Our courts have been politicized since John Marshall was appointed by Adams shortly after the Republic was born.

svpallava: Nonsense
India has experienced economic growth not because of some obscure Bible curse or promise, but because it has engaged in global trade and opened markets.

Fundamentalists of every tradition pose a huge threat to individual freedom. That is not to say I oppose religion, everything has its place in life. I oppose basing political and government policy on individual religious traditions. We have a Constitution, a guiding document and we don't base foreign policy on Bible quotes.

Finally, you have a right to believe whatever you wish. However, being educated as a Catholic, I respectfully submit that not everyone is qualified to interpret the Bible. If scholars fluent in Greek, Aramaic and Latin pouring over texts for decades grapple with its meaning, it is clearly a text open to many different views.

Egon
I visited Brazil for the first time some 5 years ago, and it was quite an eye opener. Granted, it has all the issues that all emerging societies have, yet your comments reflect a country as large as the US, with barely 2/3's of the population and, as you say, with vast and untapped natural resources. Unlike India or China, Brazil's energy policy ensures that she will be self-sufficient, and her agricultural policies that she can feed herself far into the future. These are the twin towers of future success. And, as you say, no one is actually Brazil's enemy. We sit here in the US constantly concerned about where the world is going, and our place in it, whereas they spend little time or capital on such subjects. This article is a classic example of the difference. Countries like India and China invite constant scrutiny and criticism from many Americans. They are either doing too much - or too little. They are either free in the context of our perceptions - or they are not. We judge them as if it was our right, while ignoring the underlying reality that the issues these countries face, mired in their past history and traditions, and rooted in huge populations whose care, education and feeding surpasses our ability to comprehend nor understand, does not enable them to meet our versions of a model society - which even we are not. Rather than being greatful that they are not failing as societies, given all of the issues they confront, we too often sound like an unhappy nag whose sole purpose is to tear others down, in order to make ourselves look better.

Understanding is the basis of wisdom, and too often, American's lack wisdom.

Great reading
I appreciated the back and forth here as I am not too aware of what is going on in India (or Brazil). Just wanted to say thanks for some stimulating reading.

Alecto,
Based on two recent trips to the New Delhi area, I can second the observation that India is indeed on the move. Trouble is, they've got a lot of baggage to overcome...and as much as I hate to have to say it, the influence of Hinduism is a big culprit. The caste system seems to be alive and well in spite of efforts to marginalize it, and I can't say how many times I had to fight the temptation to yell out the window of my car "HEY, if you're hungry EAT THE COWS!" (especially if it's the one helping itself to the vegetables)

I

#4
H1-B gets a bad rep!! They are not paid any lower wages than regular americans. if you knew that there is a prevailing wage determination step for H1-b then you wouldnt be saying it.

tell your american compadres to start going to grad school, stop knocking up girls and producing bastards all around and hence drop out of school to support those bastards, and finish school, get a decent degree and then maybe they can get a job too.

Arranged Marriages used to be major share of marriages about a decade back but now in metro cities there are plenty of non-arranged marriages. check out the divorce rates here and compare that to there. conservatives over here talk a good game about "sanctity of marriages" and look at the divorce rates here. i doubt 52% divorce rate consists of only liberals and no conservatives. huh.


Sorry drym....
I know of what I speak, having spent some twenty years in the software industry. Indians on the H-1B visa scam are just cheap labor, not unlike Mexicans who are illegal aliens, providing cheap labor to US firms. Both ways, shameful.

There are plenty of Americans in the IT industry, furthermore, young Americans have been discouraged from going into IT because they realize that many job slots are "sold" to Indian contracting firms, who live and die on the H-1B visa scam.

Then there's the whole Hindu/Muslim incompatibility with American/Western values. Better sense says, Hindu and Muslim should stay in the East and Middle East. Doesn't mean I hate them, just common sense says they don't belong here.

Remember, the H-1B visa program is nothing but a subsidy for Indian "consulting" firms.

Aside for Bulldog74
Also, you may have noticed that many Indian Hindus who immigrate to the US have no qualms about eating burgers.

(I have seen a rationalisation of "only Indian cow is sacred", but it doesn't add up).

Also, to clear up a common misconception, the term "Hindu" DOES NOT refer to a specific religion--the term has always been (since inception in 13th century by invading Muslim rulers) a leftover category.
(*) pre-1345 -- all natives of Sub-continent irrespective of religion
(*) 1345-1739 -- all natives of Sub-continent in areas under Muslim rule NOT following Islam (not too many Muslim invaders were able to reach Kerala and Tamil Nadu--those that did couldn't long hold them)
(*) 1765-1926 -- all Subcontinentals NOT falling into the pigeonholes of Muslim, Sikh, Christian (the small number of Indian Jews got lumped in here), Parsi, Buddhist, dalit or indigenous tribal
(*) post-1926 -- separate dalit and indigenous tribal categories (for census religion purposes) eliminated

Note: always, "Hindu" has included areligious--so any breakdown of India listing "atheist" is a nonsensical fabrication.

Indeed, one of India's presidents, Dr. Radhakrishnan was known to have counselled a young man "I cannot explain Hinduism to you--it's absolutely inexplicable. If you want to know God, seek and follow THE GOD OF THE BETHLEHEM STABLE".

svpallava
Thanks -- if the 2 brief trips to India taught me anything, it was that this is one complex subcontinent! I think I would have to spend a lot of time there before I could even begin to get a handle on the place, and then it would probably apply only to the one corner of the country that I happened to be in.

I have to hand it to their government and other educated Indians for trying to move the country ahead--they sure have a challenge on their hands. I read in the Times of India of one instance where a man beat his new wife nearly to death because he was unhappy with the amount of her dowry. Thankfully, they arrested and charged him, which from what I understand might not have happened in the old days.

#14
Betwyan: why dont you just go back to your cave in the bible-belt where you live. LOL.

The H1-B is not used by only Indian consulting firms. they are also used by US companies hiring non-citizens who went to grad school here in this country. get your facts straight.

an H1-B employee in this country probably has a higher education and technical skill set than the average student coming out of grad school (of the limited number who actually care to go for grad school!!).

Maybe it will serve you well if you take a tour of the engineering/computer science department of the graduate schools at your closest big city. wake up and smell the coffee !!

Most H-1Bers are 2yr college "engineers"
drym - your optimum word is "probably", i.e., you don't know squat for sure, you're just guessing because you're probably an H-1B'er yourself and your trying desperately to bring your twenty relatives here from Crapistan.

FYI - seven of the top ten firms using the H-1B visa are........ ta-da, Indian!

Furthermore, most H-1B'ers have no more education than Americans with comparable ages and experience. Most Indian "engineers" are junior college graduates. In fact, China and India call their community college graduates "engineers". Laughable.

It's all immigration folks. People like drym, are using the scam of the "non-immigrant" H-1B visa in order to secure work in our country, then sponsor their village to come here ASAP.

Excessive immigration is a symptom of big, liberal government. That's why spending needs to be cut back drastically as well as immigration levels, "temporary" foreign workers, foreign students, etc. All liberal, big spending, big government programs.

Send them back to India, China, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. Pack up their turd world kiddies, their robes, rags on their heads, sandals and the like and send 'em back baby!

BETWyan
I don't know about "software engineers", but I do know about Mechanical and Electrical Engineers. I have worked with several Indians who came over and were hired PERMANENTLY where I used to work.

We were glad to get them because it is getting impossible to get American Engineers because more and more of the youth in America do not wish to devote themselves to the hard work an Engineering curriculam requires.

betwyan
betwyan: if americans were so good at science and technology, how do they fare so badly in maths and science compared to industrialised world. Maybe you tried to get a job in silicon valley and couldnt hack it.

no worries, we still need enough people to work at Mcdonalds. dont worry, you dont need to keep your burger-flippin skills up to date cuz this one aint going to be outsourced. LOL

ya ya ya. all big spending is by liberal govt. before the red ink from FNM and FRE bailout dries up, dont forget your folks from detroit need another 50B in bailout too.

"Send them back to India, China, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. Pack up their turd world kiddies, their robes, rags on their heads, sandals and the like and send 'em back baby!"

and you need to go back to your inbreeding nascar buddies.

Truth
Dr. Fuelner,
Great article. It's time we Americans get with the times and show our entrepreneurial spirit by capitalizing on the growth of the Indian economy. By the way I am an American citizen of Indian origin and I would cheer America over India to use cricket test of British Conservative MP Norman Tebbit.
Cleaview

India's Spiritual Traditions
These 6000 year old traditions are quite possibly the secret of India's progress and aspiration. Nest to Gandhi, I'm told, the most powerful name in India is Swami Vivekenanda, a holy man, a disciple of the Saint, Ramakrishna. Vivekenanda died at age 33 (in imitation of Christ?) on July Fourth (in admiration for America?).

Before doing so, he was kind of the Sarah Palin comes to America of his day--in the year 1893, at the Parliamnent of World Religions, held in Chicago. His oratory (after overcoming stagefright) blew down the house, not for anything but the SUBSTANCE of his talk, spiritual hope in a Universal God.

All praise to the God of Vedanta, the same God, i believe, that I pray to--through Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

Strangely, an at that time practicing homosexual, Christopher Isherwood, wrote a plausible story about Ramakrishna and His Disciples. Isherwood became a great friend of one of those disciples who came to Hollywood to promote Vedanta.

Johnny Carson and Ed McMahon even picked up on parts of this mysterious legacy in one of their funny weekly skits or antics. "The Great Karmac" as I recall.
Vedantal is one tradition; "Hare Krishna" is another (with an authentic saint as founder, by the way); Yogananda is another; Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (TM)) is another; Sai Baba may still be alive; last but not least--the unique one of questionable morals: Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (he had read all our books and practiced, but not consistently, all the great Traditions).

Jack's 2008/09/09 21:39 post erroneous
(*) Narendranath Dutta aka Vivekananda was 39, NOT 33, at the time of his death
(*) "Sai Baba" refers to two different people, Shirdi Sai Baba (unknown birth, died 1918 aka "old dead fraud") and Putaparthi Sai Baba (born 1926, aka "big-hair fraud")

As for a true picture of "classic" religious Hinduism:
(*) its idolatry, associated occultism and the Caste system all are abominations in God's sight
(*) it has the distinction of being the religion with the most reformation movements (Natha movement started by Gorakhnath, Lingayat movement by Basavanna, Bramho Samaj by Debendranath Tagore, Prarthna Samaj by Keshab Sen, Arya Samaj by Mool Shankar "Dayananda" Tiwari) in history--indicating that the religion needs reformation and that this need is recognised internally

(factoid--Bramho, Prarthna and Arya Samaj's were all established in 19th century)

Jack's ignorance (which he tried to hide through 0blahma-esque post) was rather easily spotted by this ex-Hindu!

Vic...you make one of my points
Vic - quantity creates a quality all to itself. The fact that high tech fields have been flooded with foreigners, mostly Indians, by itself discourages young Americans from entering the study of such fields.

If visas such as the H-1B were scaled back, this would create demand and more young Americans would direct their energies to enter those fields.

The H-1B visa is just another "guest worker" (who never goes back home) immigration scam and source of cheap labor for employers. Don't believe me? More than a few economists have said so, saying that on average, H-1Bers have lower salaries than native Americans with comparable experience.


Ignorant and Misinformed
What some of you have commented on India is called "Stereotyping".

Betwyan, United States for Americans???Sounds like you didn't pass your high school History class-who are we Americans?Aren't we all immigrants? This great land has welcomed all immigrants with open arms for centuries.The fact that there are so many Indians on H1B visa's should tell you something about the caliber of the people.There are obviously not enough American citizen to fill US jobs in the IT industry. Because if there are qualified folks out there then by law all American corporations have to first offer these IT jobs to American citizen! Reduce highschool and college drop out rates and get the American youth to stay in college and get an education.Maybe then we can beat the immigrant population from taking up our jobs.Sure these individual folks need good money and better life in the US in many ways but hey the US corporations also need them so they can make money.

Alecto, what do you know about Indian society and the status of women in India? India has had a WOMAN Prime Minister in the 1970s and 1980s and where are with with that in the US in the 21st century???

Burkanuck1, women play a leading role in religious rituals in the Hindu society. India is the most secular state in the world. India houses so many differnt religions (Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikh, Buddhist, Jains.) Where are you getting the information that Christians are killed daily in India?? Christianity is one of the largest religions in India after Hindu and Muslims.

Some of you see a problem with Indian arranged marriage system? Guess what! They last longer than the ones in the western world. Even after living together before marriage the divorce rates are higher in the US. And guess what! Stable marriages mean stable families and stable families mean mentally healthier youths. Healthier youths means, higher college going populations and hence better jobs.

For Rose a few points
It is true that India had a female Prime Minister 1966-1977 and 1980-1984; however, it is also true that India's northern states (including the one from which the termagant PM hailed) have the country's lowest sex-ratios (due to infanticide and sex-selection abortion--both technically illegal). Also, three of India's neighbours have been led by women--and in one of these, Pakistan, that same leader NEVER REPUDIATED the "Hudood" ordinances which for practical purposes enabled rapists to get off scot-free (no surprise, as they were initiated by an unindicted war-criminal).

Also, your statement "even after living together before marriage, divorce rates are higher in the US"--eh, that's more of a contributing factor to divorce rates.

Also, the arranged marriage system which you attempted to laud has long been an avenue of greed.

Illiteracy rates? College equivalency
Last time I visited India I had a lay-over in Singapore. The Strait Times printed and article that India's population had just surpassed 1 billion. In the article it also said that half the population was illiterate. That's 500 hundred million people. Wow. They have a ways to go.
Also, an engineer is an engineer. That's a 5 year degree in the US. Is it a 3 year degree in India? To qualify for Graduate level education at most public universities in the U.S. applicants with India degrees must have a masters degree to meet the 16 years of formal education requirement. Their bachelors degree is a three year degree.
ks

H-1B Indian subsidy program.....
Rose - you're obviously an Indian here on an H-1B visa or you're an employer who likes cheap labor to help build your 2nd home or you're just foolishly naive.

"Aren't we all immigrants"? Duh, no we're not. Got the memo? Maybe you need remedial US History (not the "pc" approved version taught in govt. schools today). US immigration levels never surpassed about 10% of the native population. Today we are at about 12% and rising (mostly from illegal immigrants from south of the border and Indians and Chinese through legal and the H-1B visa scam). Besides, every nation is the world is a "nation of immigrants", since no one grew out of the soil. That has nothing to do with whether or not we have a sensible immigration policy and border enforcement. And that also means, illegal immigrants, and legal immigrants and "guest" workers and foreign students need to be deported when found to be cheating and "gaming the system" - a very common practice among foreign H-1B visa holders.

Obviously you don't know much about the IT industry. I have been in it for 20 years. Indians are brought in to under-cut Americans. What this does over the long run is to discourage young Americans from wanting to enter the IT industry since they see almost no one but Indians in the field.

It become a negative self-fulfilling prophesy. It also undermines American independence and sovereignty. There is more to life than making an little extra profit, get it?

Nothing is as important as our homeland, it's continued existence and well-being. Excessive immigration and "temporary" and "guest" workers undermine that. H-1Bers love and dream of India and China and Lebonon and Eygpt.

They don't belong here. Like I don't belong in their homelands. Period.

I feel so abused
"Christianity is the most persecuted faith on earth and the media REFUSE to talk about it. WHY?"

Tell that to the Buddhists in Tibet and Burma.

Are we all Immigrants?
Lord, NO!!!

I was born here. That makes me an American, not an immigrant. Don't go trying to confuse things. So were my parents and grandparents and great-granparents, etc. Some of my ancestors were here to greet Columbus if they were in the right place at the time, which I doubt.

Immigrants are people who come here in their lifetimes. Get it right!

H1B Indian Subsidy Program??
BETWyan, no I am not an Indian on H1B visa and I am very much employed and deal with the IT industry. H1B is not Synonymous with Indians just so that you know. I totally agree with you that if you find a foreign working cheating the system deport them. There should be zero tolerance for cheating. But that still does not lable Indian H1B visa as the culprits and source of the problem. Like I said its a two way relationship and both the parties are reaping the benefits. You want to join the race get the training and jump in. That is all I am saying.
If the morale of IT student's in the US is so low that they feel they can't compete with H1B holders then the problem lies with them not the H1B visa holders. No one said life is easy and there will be no competition.
The way India is progressing and the way US dollar is losing its value may be a few years from now you may want to be in the Indian homeland making a living. Don't say anything too soon. None of us know whats around the corner.

svpallava, no one said that living together before marriage is a contributing factor to high divorce rates. All I said is after living together and knowing each other before tying the knots you ought to atleast be sure that you want to live your life with this person.

Definition
45caliber, if you are not an American Indian then you are an immigrant. You may be a citizen of the United States because you are born here but based on the dictionary definition the people that inhabited the land prior to being explored by others are usually considered natives. Those who come there after are called immigrants. Don't kid yourself. I guess we could start a whole new blog to discuss the definition of "immigrants" but Sociologist will agree with this. If you are not an American Indian then you are an immigrant.

Betwyan @ 15:55 missed a crucial detail
about Rose. The idea that cohabitation prior to marriage would actually aid the marriage is quite "phoren" to the FOB and ex-FOB Indian mindset.

Rose is most likely from Canada's Sodom, Toronto--aka Hogtown (or, as I term it, Pigtown--which makes Pigtowners bristle). Such a mindset, as well as the lack of concept of national loyalty is extremely common in morOntario. I have personally had flame-wars with Pigtowners who thought that Mulroney (who committed treason through 1990 Meech Lake Accord attempt) receiving Order Of Canada in 1998 was apt,and who also refused to even acknowledge Trudeau's 1982 "birding" of Canada.

Definitions:
FOB -- archaic "fresh off boat", maybe should be updated to FOP for "fresh off plane"
ex-FOB -- entered new land as FOB sometime ago, and has spent the bulk of time in new land.

And Rose showed ignorance by scribbling
"BETWyan, no I am not an Indian on H1B visa and I am very much employed and deal with the IT industry"

Missing the fact that H1-b is a WORK visa, oft (but not always) associated with IT.

(information which could easily be obtained from the Serbinski Immigration Forum, moderated by immigration attorney and former INS inspector Jim Eiss)

Personal choice
svpallava, again you are missing the point. Coliving before marriage is a personal choice. There is no right or wrong in making that choice just like there is no right or wrong in following the practise of a "arranged marriage" system. All I am trying to say is inspite of knowing/living with the person you marry the divorce rates are high in the western world. WHY? and inspite of not knowing/not living together with the person you marry in the "arranged marriage" system the divorce rates are low in India. They are obviously doing something right and we are not. This could be a whole new socilogical discussion and outside the scope of this blog. But it has been interesting to know the views of folks and what they think of the people and country that is emerging as a world power.

By the way I am not a FOB or FOP. I am very much a citizen of this great nation that I adore for many reasons but I can't discredit a great nation like India for its achievements either. Despite its social issues India is where it is today. There are flaws in the Indian society just like there are flaw in every society but the good out numbers the bad and hence there is progress.

Rose, you missed by light years
I already knew you weren't FOB, or even ex-FOB--as stated, the idea of cohabitation being helpful towards marriage is alien (and anathema) to any actual India-born.

The real analogy to cohabitation is that of doing a two-week trial drive of a car with a dealership before signing the purchase papers--if you were running a car dealership, would you retain the salesperson making such deals? Likely not, as these customers would return every car tried, never purchasing one (and the dealership would be losing $$ like a seive).

Or, an easier way "why buy the cow when you can get the milk free?" is the actual reality behind cohabitation.

Commander In Chief Already
Subject: Governor Palin, Commander in Chief
Who Would You Trust With National Security? Obama, Marxist Community Agitator or Governor Sarah Palin, Commander in Chief Already?

Subject: Sarah Palin's Experience and Quals.....
SARAH PALIN'S SECURITY CLEARANCE

Before you dismiss the fact that Sarah Palin is Commander of the
Alaska National Guard, consider this:

Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor
defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska
National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from
ballistic missile attacks. It's on permanent active duty, unlike
other Guard units.

As governor of Alaska , Palin is briefed on highly classified
military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. Her
exposure to classified material may rival even Biden's and
certainly by far exceeds Obama's.

She's also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense
Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into
Homeland Security's counterterrorism plans.

Palin is privy to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to
the entire country's defense. Given Alaska 's proximity to Russia ,
she may have security clearances we don't even know about.
According to the Washington Post, she first met with McCain in
February, but nobody ever found out. This is a woman used to
keeping secrets.

She can be entrusted with our national security, because she
already is. . . . her experience in keeping the homeland safe fits perfectly with her image as the competent American woman.

Compare her Experience and Resume with the Messiah Obama's???

Governor Palin, Commander in Chief Already, wins hands down.

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