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Tuesday, December 02, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Rabbi and the Terrorists
by Dennis Prager
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It was obvious to observers around the world that one of the designated targets of the Pakistani Islamist terrorists was the Mumbai Chabad House, the one Jewish center in Mumbai. The 10 Islamic terrorists who came from Pakistan to India chose their targets with great care.

If one assumes that the terrorists primary goals were to destabilize India, weaken growing Indian-Pakistani cooperation in fighting terrorism, and greatly increase Indian-Pakistani tension, hopefully to the point of military war between the two countries, every one of the targets made strategic sense. Slaughtering as many people as possible in Indias major economic center, including as many foreign tourists as possible at Mumbais finest hotels, also made sense.

But one target seemed to make little sense. In fact, until the attack was over people were uncertain whether the terrorists attack on the Jewish center known as the Chabad House was part of the original plan or chosen spontaneously. Only when the lone terrorist who was captured told his interrogators that the Chabad House was planned a year earlier was it indisputable that killing the Rabbi, his wife, their children and any other Jews present was part of the plan.

The question is why?

Why would a terrorist group of Islamists from Pakistan whose primary goal is to have Pakistan gain control of the third of Kashmir that belongs to India and therefore aimed to destabilize Indias major city devote so much of its efforts -- 20 percent of its force of 10 gunmen whose stated goal was to kill 5,000 -- to killing a rabbi and any Jews with him?

The question echoes one from World War II: Why did Hitler devote so much time, money, and manpower in order to murder every Jewish man, woman, and child in every country the Nazis occupied? Why did Hitler -- as documented by the late historian Lucy Dawidowicz in her aptly named book The War against the Jews -- weaken the Nazi war effort by diverting money, troops, and military vehicles from fighting the Allies to rounding up Jews and shipping them to death camps?

From the perspective of political scientists, historians, and contemporary journalists, the answer to these questions is not rational. But the non-rationality of an answer is not synonymous with its non-validity.

For the Islamists, as for the Nazis, the destruction of the Jews -- and since 1948, the Jewish state -- is central to their worldview.

If anyone has a better explanation for why Pakistani terrorists, preoccupied with destabilizing India, would expend so much effort at finding the one Jewish center in a country that is essentially devoid of Jews, I would like to hear it.

With all the Pakistani Islamists hatred of Hindus, they did not attack one Hindu temple in Indias major city.

With all their hatred of Christian infidels, the terrorists did not seek out one of the 700,000 Christians in Mumbai.

To reinforce my point, imagine a Basque separatist terrorist organization attacking Madrid. Would the terrorists take time out to murder all those in the Madrid Chabad House? The idea is ludicrous. But no one seems to find it odd that that Pakistani Muslim terrorists who hate India and want it to give up control of Indian Kashmir would send two of its 10 terrorists to kill perhaps the only rabbi in Mumbai. As Newsweek reported during the siege, Given that Orthodox Jews were being held at gunpoint by mujahideen (sic), it seemed unlikely there would be survivors. Newsweek, like just about everyone else, simply assumes Islamists will murder Jews whenever and wherever possible.

They are right.

For years I have warned that great evils often begin with the murder of Jews, and therefore non-Jews who dismiss Jew-hatred (aka anti-Semitism, aka anti-Zionism), will learn too late that Jew- and Israel-haters only begin with Jews but never end with them. When Israeli Jews were almost the only targets of Muslim terrorists, the world dismissed it as a Jewish or Israeli problem. Then it became an American and European and Filipino and Thai and Indonesian and Hindu problem.

Two final points:

One is that it is exquisitely fitting that the same week the murders in Mumbai were taking place, the United Nations General Assembly passed six more anti-Israel resolutions. As it has for decades, the U.N. has again sanctioned hatred for a good and decent country as small on the map of the world as the Chabad House is on the map of Mumbai.

Two: Statements from Chabad in reaction to the torture-murders of a 28-year-old Chabad rabbi and his wife called on humanity to react to this evil with random acts of kindness. Evil hates goodness. Thats why the terrorists targeted a Chabad Rabbi and his wife.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Mumbai and the Rabbi
Thank you, Dennis.

Regarding the attacks
The attack on Chabad was horrible and a complete tragedy.

As to the hatred of jews and America that is so pervasive in the middle east and among some Muslims in the West, it is time that the world wises up. It is ridiculous that Israel is criticized in the UN for defending herself against insane people. I think the real reason for the criticism is anti-semitism. I become enraged whenever I hear some stupid liberal going off about the "crimes of Israel," "crimes of America," or some other nonsense as a reason why we or Israel are attacked. This is stupidity of the highest order. It is trying to make sense out of an insanity. There is no reason for the hatred.


I'm a black man. There are certain organizations such as the KKK and the American Nazi Party, just to name a couple, who hate me and want to kill me just because of the way I look. If I acted like a saint towards them, they would still feel the same way. They are just evil. It is the same thing with the jews and these radical Islamic groups. The militants are just evil and crazy. Evil must be confronted and destroyed by any legal means necessary. End of story.

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

From Martin Luther King Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism


On the attack on the Chabad:
Apperantly the terriorists acheived a great propaganda victory for spreading their terror in this attack, and brought the effort to the world stage.
In the west it would be a nonstory, the world cares little that the moslems kill Hindus. It probably occurs quiet frequently, maybe even more often then the killing of christians & jews combined. There are more Hindus in the world and they live in closer proximity to the moslems. Dog bites man.
To attack the Chabad in this situation throws into the mix a bazzar element. It creates a platform for discussion that far out strips the ordinary. This makes it a marketable story especialy in the western world. Man bites dog.

Thank You Dennis
I agree with the entire column and in fact, when this all went down, I thought the same thing. Why did these terrorists single out a Jewish place of worship? These people had nothing to do with the Muslim's beef with India. I found this extremely distressing.

Thank you Dennis
Once again Dennis Prager has spoken the truth with wisdom and clarity. I pray he will keep on and on speaking and writing and be encouraged that many people do hear and will hear and it will make a difference. It does make us stronger to keep being reminded of truth in this world of propaganda and lies and hate.
Once again Dennis never stop tellling it like it is.


Great column!
Jews have had a continous presence in that sliver of land for over 2000 years. Too all the Jew haters masking as intellectuals who have posted here.....you know what you can do with yourself.

God bless you Dennis
Shout it from the rooftops Dennis.

Theologically evil people ALWAYS target Jews.

It's not difficult to understand, but there are many people out there who don't wish to understand.


Some Points Continued

3. The reason AIPAC and other Israel advocacy groups need to be robust is obvious. The enemies of the Jewish state are exceedingly wealthy, and the world depends on their oil supply. It is very difficult to advocate for a cause, however moral, when it is perceived to contravene raw self-interest.

4. It is important to hate evil. The greatest advances in modern medicine are often driven by people who truly hate cancer, HIV, TB, malaria, etc. and the pain and loss they leave. There is genuine evil in the world, and if it is not combatted in word and deed, suffering and loss increase. American isolationists in WWII would have consigned all of world Jewry to death, and those urging the US to disarm in the Cold War would likely see the USSR still alive and dominating all of Europe. Remember Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to be silent."

It is perfectly legitimate, and even praiseworthy, to feel anger at evil, to express our anger in words or posts, and to call upon our governments, and/or God Almighty (such as "may God avenge their blood"), to take measured, deliberate action to see to it that evil is eradicated. Anger is human; acting on anger to kill innocents is beastly. That is the vast gulf that exists between us and our enemies.

Some points
1. A history lesson. Despite severe Byzantine oppression that drove most remaining Jews northward by the mid-fifth century, there was always a Jewish presence in their land [that Hadrian renamed after the Philistines to 'stick it' to the Jews]. In the 1800's, when Jews began to return and work the land in earnest, Palestine was a desolate backwater with an occasional tiny village here and there. Many "Palestinians" are descendants of Arab opportunists from elsewhere who flocked to the early Jewish pioneers for employment. Case in point: Yasser Arafat. Don't take my word for it. Look it up for yourself.

2. I spent two years studying with religious young men who interspersed study with the Israeli army. Many are children of "settlers." Many had war stories about moral dilemmas, e.g., refraining from destroying a residential home with possible innocents despite terrorists shooting out its other windows. None would even consider torture, and would be horrified by the suggestion of the allegations above. Perhaps they are projecting what Arabs indeed do to each other in the PA, Syria, Iraq under Hussein, etc. Remember that Arafat was a brilliant master of propaganda, and he taught his people well. Many grains of salt are in order.

Delay in reaction by Indian Police
Great article,
what I do not understand is why the Indian police responded so late to the Chabad house, and did not allow Israeli guards to enter the house instead they were taken to the local police station.

Obama not a NATURAL BORN US Citizen!
More coming attractions and sneak previews of what Obamachrist will bring to Israel and America.

However, we think it's a little presumptuous to argue about Obama's appointments and policies, when he's not even a natural born US citizen? Ergo, he doesn't meet one of the three basic qualifications for the presidency. HE WAS BORN IN KENYA, AND ALL HE'S SHOW SO FAR IS A PHOTOSHOP FAKE BIRTH CERTIFICATE. SEE FOR YOURSELF HERE:
http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/obama-proof-he-was-born -in-kenya-fake-birth-certificate/

DEMAND OBAMA PROVE HE'S A NATURAL U.S. BORN CITIZEN - SIGN THE FED EX LETTER TO THE SUPREME COURT TODAY: (deadline is Thurs 12/4 12pm)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId= 82449

AMERICA IS WORTH IT!
**********************************

UNSPEAKABLE
Unspeakable to murder Lubavitchers. A rabbi and his wife...devoting their lives to teaching and carrying their faith through their Chabad House. Lubavitchers are the most studious, devoted, hard working people. This is a most painful, dreadful event. My heart is heavy for them.

.........
------I also know that we, the Christians are next on the extermination list after the Jews.------

Donna, there’s a muslim saying, “First the Saturday people then the Sunday people.”

Translation for the dimwit liberals: First we kill the Jews then we kill the Christians.

Rabbi tortured, Evil hates good
You simplified a question that has plagued me for years. Why the rabid hated of JEWS? " Evil hates good"
I had always thought that Dennis P. lived in a rarified atmosphere of the highly intelligent and wise, he always seems to walk above the chaos. He exposed his soul yesterday, Dec. 2, when he raged against the UN their anti semetic actions in the shadow of the blood shed by the rabbi, wife and other Jews. I now admire him even more for his heroic choice to be happy, to be light in the darkness.
I am a Christian and pray daily for the Jews, Psalm 122, I have a great love for Jews. I also know that we, the Christians are next on the extermination list after the Jews. God help us all in this era of political correctness and blindness.

No where except on Dennis' program did I read or hear that the Rabbi and hiw wife were tortured. Is this silence to try to keep the lid on possible antipathy toward Muslims??? Too late, too late!!! The Evil is out of the bag!!!!

Targeting Jews
I have two young children and their father (and my former husband) is Jewish, i.e., they are half Jewish.

Considering the desire of Islamofacists to kill Jews, my children use my surname... I guess I may have to think of another name since Islamofacists want to kill Americans, too.

What a shame, but necessary given the ideology of Islamofacists.

Jews Targeted
Regarding the the Rabbi and the terrorists article:

I would add that perhaps in order to get the required training, funding and backing to do this atrocity, the terrorists had to attack a Jewish target on behalf of those that funded the whole tragedy.

The World Media
Has anyone besides me noticed that the same world media that went on and on about Abu Ghraib has ignored or downplayed the fact that the Chabad House victims were tortured before they were murdered? As for the U.N., I've been saying for years that Istrael's only hope of survival is to tell the U.N. to go (expletive deleted) itself with a fire extinguisher.

BenjaminBarker
I was intentionally insulting in response to your UNintentional insult. My appologies, but please, don't even imply that islam has anything to do w/ or has anything in common w/ Judaeo-Christian doctrine. Peace loving muslims are in fact heretics. Good heretics, but heretics just the same.

The true followers of islam spent last week carving up innocent, peace loving jews for the pleasure of watching them bleed and plead. And they did it, accurately, in the name of THEIR "god", NOT the God of Abraham. Not the maker of all that is: our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Come to the Father my friend, He's been waiting for you to surrender your will to Him. Yes, our Lord died for us, He didn't give instructions for us to kill in his name, ala allah.

No Tolerance for the Intolerant
From another of my posts: Subject: "Does anyone know if the Mumbai terrorists managed to take and secure American or British hostages? I've tried to follow the stories and I was left with the impression that they didn't, but that doesn't make sense to me."

No, the Mumbai terrorists did not "secure" ANYONE, including Americans, Britons or the Jews (which included several Americans). Yes, there were 6 Americans and 1 Briton that were killed, but others either were shot or spent hours in terror while hiding. If you ask why the overall number fails to make sense, then the answer is that the jihadists don't discriminate. They secure no one. In fact, several of the terrorists hid among the hostages only to open fire on them later and many were Muslim and Hindus.

According to the terrorist, who was taken into custody, the plan was to kill, at least, 5,000 people. Terrorists do not "secure" anyone. They kill as many as possible when they have a chance...even if those people are Muslims.

Terrorists do not want to secure a peaceful coexistence. The aim of Jihadists is to 1) restore all countries that were once Muslim, even those where Islam ruled back in the 7th century, such as many in Europe like Spain and France; 2) bring it to the US, UK and other Western States, except that, should we say "No", then they will destroy us; 3) they want to impose their own definition of Islam on Muslim countries, especially countries like Turkey, Iraq, and, perhaps, even Jordan and Egypt; and 4) they want to impose Islam on as much of the Earth as possible.

Security is NOT an option for peace-loving people. No one is secure where terrorist thugs want to impose their own vision of what Islam is and where it should be practiced. We all make a grave mistake in believing otherwise. The "we" here is all peoples, including those Muslims that want no part of the radical Islamic agenda. Thus, no tolerance for the intolerant.

Jesus is Lord!
Lots of interesting posts here but the bottom line is that Jesus is Lord and after its all said and done, He will be coming back for His people. The evil that is in the world is here and is vast and vile. It will be here until He comes back and sets things right. Our only hope is in Him and His redemption. Man's anger does not work the righteousness of God. We are to be ambassadors for Him and love as He loves. Overcome evil with good. That doesn't however mean to be naive. Quite the contrary. "Be wise as serpents but innocent as doves".

Jesus is Lord!
Lots of interesting posts here but the bottom line is that Jesus is Lord and after its all said and done, He will be coming back for His people. The evil that is in the world is here and is vast and vile. It will be here until He comes back and sets things right. Our only hope is in Him and His redemption. Man's anger does not work the righteousness of God. We are to be ambassadors for Him and love as He loves. Overcome evil with good. That doesn't however mean to be naive. Quite the contrary. "Be wise as serpents but innocent as doves".

svirk
It might be time for a little history lesson. After the fall of the Ottoman empire in 1917, the British were left to govern Israel/Palestine and were eventually to give the land over to the people that lived there. There was plenty of empty land so England offered the vacant areas in the desert and already established Jewish settlements to Jews from around the world who were being oppressed. The Jews quickly built vast metropolises like Tel Aviv on empty sand dunes. As the holocaust began, more Jews immigrated to Israel and Arabs became upset and friction began to mount. The British decided it was too much for them to handle so they asked the UN for help keeping the peace. The UN gen asm came up with UN 181 which gave Arabs the land where they were the majority and Jews the land where they were the majority, which was mostly desert. The Jews accepted it but the Arabs declared war instead. Five Arab armies attempted to conquer the newly formed state of Israel in 1948 and the Arabs lost. The problem is that many Palestinians (like Hamas) have still not surrendered and maintain that Israel is an enemy. Accordingly, Israel treats them like enemies.

Hey Virky,
Dontcha think it's about time for the Muslim comunity to come out en mass against the kinda crap that just happened in India.

Maybe hold some elections, stop killing women for uncovering their head, start some factories, turn to peaceful means for solving disputes with other countries, you know, move the donkey ahead a few steps.

A good start to bettering relations with everyone else would be to denounce what just happened and stop making excuses for it, especially since there aren't any.

Look man, George Bush is about to retire to his ranch and write his memoirs, Ossama will have to hide in a cave the rest of his life (if he's not already dead). Saddam's head popped off when he was hung. Islam and the entire Middle East needs a serious modernization program. Now denounce murder and try to move people FORWARD.

SVirk
> The God of the Bible is triune (okay, I
> know Jewish people aren't with me on
> that one)

That is a great difference, wouldn't you say?
*** yeah, I'm certainly not claiming that Jewish
*** people have the same theology I do.

> and Islam has only a bizarre
> misunderstanding of what that means.

The Trinity is a bizarre belief, is it not?
*** My use of the word "bizarre" was intended to
*** refer to the Muslim idea that the Trinity is
*** God, Jesus and Mary. "Bizarre" in the sense
*** of "not close an accurate understanding."

> Just as important is the concept of
> grace: grace, the undeserved love and
> forgiveness of God, shows up repeatedly
> in the Old and New Testaments. Islam has
> absolutely no concept of grace whatsoever.

That is only your ignorance speaking. The very first words of the Quran refer to God as Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim, meaning the Graceful and the Merciful. He Who gives without reservation and condition and He Who is quick to forgive.
*** Are those really underlying concepts of Islam,
*** or are they words borrowed from Judaism and
*** Christianity without a belief structure actually
*** built on them?

You know, if you're a Muslim I have no intention of insulting you or your beliefs. What I'm saying is that Islam is a religion of man trying to do enough works to earn God's approval, not of God extending mercy to deal with the deeper issue. The deeper issue is that sin can never enter into God's presence and we are all profoundly and irretrievably stained with sin. Ten billion good deeds can never even scratch the surface of earning forgiveness for us.

Yes, the words "mercy" and "grace" appear in the Qu'ran --- but not the concepts.

Militant- Thy name is TERRORIST
The Left and MSM, which may very well be one in the same, have been trying to redefine terrorism since 9/11. "Oh, let's be nice to those, who tried or succeeded in killing us. It wasn't really their faults, it was America's."

They are what they are... TERRORISTS! Further, it is our fault? Excuse me, but terrorists kill everyone that either disagrees with them or just happens to be collateral damage even if those they murdered were Muslims.

The psychobabble of the Left and their willingness to believe that terrorists only act because of what they "perceive" America has done to them is disgusting. Would they change their minds if they or their friends/family were subjected to terrorism? Many would, but others would continue.

Well, I say, they are terrorists. They weren't born because of Bush's actions. I don't think that Bush impacted the Palestinians, who killed Jewish athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics. I don't believe that Bush caused the Breslin murders of hundreds of children in Russia. I don't believe that Bush was responsible for the first WTC, or the bombings that blew up the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya (?), or the USS Cole bombing, or the Khobar Towers mass murder.

A terrorist is a terrorist and better off dead.
They may be "homocidal maniacs", but THEY ARE, WITHOUT A DOUBT, TERRORISTS AND SHOULD BE TREATED THAT WAY. PERIOD.

Afterall, they can get the psychobabble after they are dead, but as for the 72 virgins, the terrorists may be out of luck. Hell may have fury like a woman scorned, but it doesn't specialize in Virgins.

Considering
the actions of the "militants", why is it that some of the folks that consider themselves compassionate humans, don't see the irony of supporting the terrorists. A little introspective might be in order.

Profblog
> Well said. Now that you have established
> that The Jews do not have a lock on the
> land because of historical presence 2000
> years ago, we can conclude that the
> "Palestinians" have no lock on the land
> either.

People living on and ruling over a piece of land for an extended period of time have a lock on the land.

> Any cursory glance at historical land
> transactions will note that many land
> and resource disputes were settled by
> force.

Yes, throughout history land has changed hands almost exclusively by force.

> Thus, Palestinian "rights" to the land
> will have to be "enforced."

The Jews stole the land from the Palestinians. They stole it by force. They were stronger and continue to be stronger so they keep the land. Is that the argument of the Israel supporters? If it were at least they would be honest but they insist that the land belongs to the Jews because their ancient religious text says so and because the Jews owned the land two thousand years ago. That is idiocy.

S Virk


Svirk
Well said. Now that you have established that The Jews do not have a lock on the land because of historical presence 2000 years ago, we can conclude that the "Palestinians" have no lock on the land either.
Any cursory glance at historical land transactions will note that many land and resource disputes were settled by force.
Thus, Palestinian "rights" to the land will have to be "enforced."
Is that what you think the article is about?

Amillennialist
> Jerusalem mattered to Mohammed only while
> he was trying to convince Jews to follow
> him.

You are ignorant of Islam and have been brainwashed by simple minded propaganda.

Aside from that, consider that the Jews gained Israel right after the time of Moses and except for a short period held on to it until they rejected Jesus, the Messiah. This is a period of about 1300 years. The Muslims gained Jerusalem right after the time of Muhammad and except for a short period held on to it until 1948. This is also a period of about 1300 years. Today both groups fight over the land with the Jews holding the upper hand for now though they have been unable to build their Temple. What should we learn from this?

S Virk


The Apple of G=d's Eye
The Almighty Himself is touched by these acts and it is against Him that the battle is being fought. Only a spiritual explanation for such evil perpetrated against His chosen makes any sense. Those who hate G-d, ultimately hate His people. May the Truth prevail. May Messiah come quickly and restore the Kingdom.

rohi
> The Quran does contain some positive (only
> among fellow Muslims) ideology, which is
> then nullified by advocating the guilt-free
> murder non-believers, or infidels.

What kind of ignorant person would believe such nonsense about Islam?

S Virk


johnTaylor
> The God of the Bible is triune (okay, I
> know Jewish people aren't with me on
> that one)

That is a great difference, wouldn't you say?

> and Islam has only a bizarre
> misunderstanding of what that means.

The Trinity is a bizarre belief, is it not?

> Just as important is the concept of
> grace: grace, the undeserved love and
> forgiveness of God, shows up repeatedly
> in the Old and New Testaments. Islam has
> absolutely no concept of grace whatsoever.

That is only your ignorance speaking. The very first words of the Quran refer to God as Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim, meaning the Graceful and the Merciful. He Who gives without reservation and condition and He Who is quick to forgive.

S Virk


Curtal Friar
> In A.D 70, there was a revolt against the
> Romans that was put down and Jerusalem
> was sacked.
> Sometime around 130 A.D.

The Jews had rejected Jesus, the Messiah, and broken their covenant with God. They were punished with expulsion from Israel.

> It was not till after Mohammed's time
> (cerca 700 A.D.) that there was a Moslem
> presence in the area of Israel. The
> Moslems took Jerusalem and claimed it as
> one of their holy sites.

The Muslims took Jerusalem from the Romans.

> That still doesn't change the fact that
> the area was first a Jewish Land, and
> that in 1949, the Jews finally returned
> after a very long time away to reclaim
> their ancient homeland.

What insanity. People have no claim on land their ancestors may have lived on 2000 years previously. Consider that it has only been 500 years since the Christian White man stole the land of the Native Americans.

S Virk


Outrageous.....
I am supposed to be from the "left", but I am just as outraged by the killings of the Rabbi and his wife as people from the "right". I care about all innocents death whether be it a Jew, Muslim, Christain, or Hindu. There is nothing to discriminate when an innocent life is taken away too soon, hatred is hatred that is pure and simple, and to somehow for the author to tie this into a political/cultural fight is beneath him.

Thanks Dennis...

What a thought-provoking article. Well done!

May you live as long as Moses.

My thoughts and prayers will be with the Jewish people throughout the next four years.

Too many on the Jealous Left wish the worst for your brothers and sisters. And sadly, a sledgehammer and railroad spike would make for a fruitless attempt at knocking some sense into their thick heads.

incredibly dumb column
The instigators of the Indian attacks are muslim. Has any one noticed lately that the Jews are busily building more jewish settlement in the Palestinian west bank. they are making virtual prisoners out of the 2 million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip. Muslims do have empathy for one another as they have a common bond of their religion.

.............
------Just wondered where the extrapolation about Satan performing the actual killing came from .. the Scriptures say that it was God Himself who did it. Is it from the Talmud?--------

JohnTaylor, it was an interpretation that I read and enjoyed. On an interesting side note; Apollyon makes his first appearance in Revelation 9:11. Apollyon rose through the pillars of smoke from the bottomless pit. The first image that comes to mind is that of the smoke from the Trade Center towers on that fateful day of 9/11.

One can only hope that the Wrath of God™ is near for the enemies of humanity, the islamists.

.............
-----People throw around the term Islamo Nazi. Do they take the Nazi part seriously.........Chad------

Do you realize the arabs wore the nazi uniform during WWII? Are you aware the the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem during that time was strongly allied with Hitler and met with him? Apparently Hitler was impressed with the Mufti's pogroms.

Land Claims
William said: "But by this logic, the Wampanoag would have a greater claim to Massachusetts than the US."

Considering what's been happening in Massachusetts lately, we should probably give the whole state back to the Wampanoag.

.............
-------You may be referring to Julius Caesar's burning of the library ca.48 BC. There was a Muslim consquest in 642, but the legend that the Muslim invaders "burned the scrolls to heat ther bathwater" seems to be a later propaganda invention to encourage ignorance and bigotry..........by some liberal eunuch-------

Caesar burned down 1/3 of the library and 10% of the contents. I'm referring to the burning in 640 AD ordered by Caliph Omar when the muslims took Egypt. I do concede that the 640AD burning by Muslims is still debatable because there is no reference of it in literature of the time period. As far as I'm concerned that is not evidence in and of itself. Millennia later muslims are still carrying out their barbarity, for them to have burned a library would have been child's play. The only book that matters to muslims is the koran. Some years back when a few paleostinians took hostages for several days in the Church of Nativity they used pages from the bible as toilet paper and utterly desecrated the church. If the Jews didn't protect the Christian holy sites in Israel the muslims would burn them to the ground.

A Culture, but no Border


A country consists of a Border and a Culture, and if anyone violates either, out they should go.

One of the problems that Jews have had over the centuries is that they have a culture but no border. You can’t say Israel is the homeland of Jews, a small percentage of the World’s population of Jews, lives in Israel.

Jews of one part of that religion do not like people of other parts. That’s not too unusual with all people everywhere, but recently a woman was thrown off a city bus in Jerusalem because she sat in the wrong seat, and the bus company would not display advertisements for a lady who was running for office, just because she was female.


Not a new problem


The Muslim problem is not new. As Mark Twain said in The Innocents Abroad, written in 1867,
------
Any where else we would have been assailed by a clamorous army of donkey-drivers, guides, peddlers and beggars--but in Damascus they so hate the very sight of a foreign Christian that they want no intercourse whatever with him; only a year or two ago, his person was not always safe in Damascus streets. It is the most fanatical Mohammedan purgatory out of Arabia.

Jew hatred.
The Jew is always the target because he represents God in this world. He introduced God to mankind. The Jew is the MC for God,he brings moral certitude to the fore, whether or not he practices what he preaches.An attack on the Jew is always an attack against God and his biblical teachings. Destroying the Jew means destroying God. No more absolute truths, just might makes right.

Phylo lies
Phylo,

Those poor Nazis, no one understood them, right? The deaths of millions at the hands of Hitler and his minions, just propaganda, right?

Rather than let your anti-Semitism twist every thought that enters your head, why not open your eyes -- and some books -- and discover for yourself what the words of Allah and the example of Mohammed demand of the faithful?

Perhaps then you'll recognize why Americans generally support Israel (hint: It's the only decent country in a land of Islamic sewage).

Perhaps then you'll end your support for genocide, pedophilia, rape, slavery, and all the other crimes against humanity made "divine" by Mohammed and his allah.

Serious about the Nazi part?
People throw around the term Islamo Nazi. Do they take the Nazi part seriously. I have a post on my blog here called Ancient Boudary markers that answers you question as to why they would kill a Rabbi's wife with the baby watching covered in blood in Mumbai. Could you imagine a satanical version of sienfeld where the theme was mother? It is designed to attack you subconciously I think.

Ali...#112

Well said!

svirk's historical revisionism
svirk,

Your "Jews consider Jesus . . . ," is false and misleading. Jesus is the promised Messiah. Who were His Apostles? All Jews. Who were the first Christians? All Jews. The Christian Scriptures? Hebrew and Jewish. Many of today's liturgical traditions come from the Jews.

No, you can say, "many," or, "most," but give the rest of the story. Many Jews rejoiced to see the Messiah.

BenjaminBarker
BenjaminBarker,

Jerusalem mattered to Mohammed only while he was trying to convince Jews to follow him. When they refused, he relented.

Later, Muslims made Jerusalem important because they wanted to deny Israel's historic right to it, claiming that Mohammed began his night flight from there.

John Spencer
John Spencer, open a Qur'an.

Or, if short on time, browse here: http://amillennialist.blogspot.com/2004/07/allah-and-his-f alse-prophet-command.html

The stupid press
is whitewashing this anti-Semitic massacre just like the good dhimmis that they are. I have news for the press: In the eyes of Islamists you are the cowardly Fifth Column and they will deal with you when the time comes. So, please: start to realize that your own lives will be threatened by the crazy Islamofascists and stop covering up for them!

BenjaminBarker's two gods
Any apparent similarities between Christ and Allah are due to the fact that Mohammed plagiarized (and butchered, go figure!) portions of the Bible.

Any study reveals the two gods are as similar as fettuccine and fecal matter.

Christ commanded, "Love your enemies."

Allah commanded, "kill the unbelievers wherever you find them."

Christ warned that those who cause a "little one" to sin would be better off having a large stone tied around their neck and being thrown into the depths of the sea.

Mohammed began raping his six-year-old "bride" Aisha when she was nine, and claimed that Allah ordained it!

So, you are either lying for Allah, or completely ignorant on this topic. Either way, your obfuscation is a danger to decent people everywhere.

Please revise your analysis.

Bush Is Right - WMD's EVERYWHERE
The news reported today that there are WMD's everywhere and that it's impossible to know where all of the WMD's are located so how could President Bush know since Obama promised to kill Bin Laden and can't even find him, let alone WMD's. So, the left isn't going to give one inch that Bush knew that WMDs were out there and that they are aimed at Christians, Americans, Jews, and anyone else that they consider infidels and no one is safe. We are vulnerable, but the only thing the new cabinet talks about is more taxes funding for ABORTIONS; Nationalized Healthcare; and diminishing the military and bringing them home while our country is at war and threatened and at risk of attacks just like anywhere else in the world. What difference does it make if any of their socialists programs are implemented if our borders remain open and terrorists are living amongst us plotting to kill our citizens?

Just because...
I know that one of the typical reaction by the right to things like this is "Where is the outrage amongst Muslims?"

Here you go.
http://indiapost.com/article/communitypost/4675/

Ruth you are an ignorant bigot
It's almost useless to response to such a ridiculous post. But, I'll do it anyway.

To say "Abraham's God" assumes there are others. Of course, Abraham himself taught that there was only ONE Creator.

Replace God with Allah? Your ignorance become increasingly apparent as I read your post. Allah is only the Arabic translation. Did Christians "replace" Jehovah with "God"??

How about Moses with Jesus? Did Christians replace the message of Moses or was it used a the founding/underlining premise?

Now, about "being judged by Jesus' words". I hope you speak Aramaic or Hebrew because he surely didn't speak in the language that you find in your Bible. In fact, his name wasn't even Jesus!! There are no "Js" in his native language. He name was closer to what Muslims use for the one they recognize as the Messiah. That would be "Issa".

ruth
Are you really not bothered by the silliness of the idea that God could only pick as a prophet someone based on whose great great etc grandson he was?

I understand that primitive people have historically put too much emphasis on these questions of bloodline, but isn't it problematic to think that God's thinking was so primitive?

Svpalla
Down in flames?? Gimme a break. Since they were talking about Arab-Muslims, Jews and Palestine, I thought it was assumed.

I'm a African-American Muslim born and raised. Obviously I know that I'm no Arab or a Semite.


ISHAMEL IS STILL TRYING TO KILL ISAAC
The Bible tells us exactly why the descendants of Ishmael have always tried to eliminate THE JEWS.. Revelation 3: 9,10 ....Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which SAY THEY ARE JEWS AND ARE NOT, but do lie;......Verse 10...Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
This verse is prophecy of the temptation of the entire world in time's end..Tempted to leave the true God by men who claim to be Jews are are not..It is called Islam today
A true Jew is one who is of Abraham/Isaac and who worship's Abraham God..
A false Jew is one who is of Abraham,/Ishmael and who claims to worship Abraham's god.. but are of satan.. John 8 collaborates this..
As long as there are true Jews on earth satan cannot validate his lie that Ishmael was the chosen line...If Ishmael was not the chosen line that eliminates Mohamed as a prophet and Islam as being of God..
Satan has always tried to eliminate Jews for this reason...
Not only does satan lose this end time battle but the very foundation of his church will be exposed as I have just done..
Think about it.. satan is the identity thief...He tries to replace God Almighty with allah, replace Isaac with Ishmael,replace Jesus with Mohammed, replace Christ's Gospel with Koran,...
Now remember Jesus said "He that endures to the END will be saved"..He also said "We will be judged by Jesus words" Jesus knew full well about the replacement Koran Gospel and warned us..

svpallala
Your last comment suggests you have problems with the idea of comparatives.

The Great Stain
"Was this before or after the muslims burned down the Alexandria library?"

You may be referring to Julius Caesar's burning of the library ca.48 BC. There was a Muslim consquest in 642, but the legend that the Muslim invaders "burned the scrolls to heat ther bathwater" seems to be a later propaganda invention to encourage ignorance and bigotry. The achievements of Islam's first centuries are undeniable, but it's indeed sad to see how the religion went to seed after 1000 years.

R.A.M. scribbled
"As a Jew, you should know that Muslims and Jews are cousins".

That only works with Arabs--and fails miserably with:
(*) Kurds (descended from Medes--NOT semitic)
(*) Afghans and north-Subcontinental (genetic mess from Persian, Greek, Hephthalite and Turkic--all non-semitic)--these GROSSLY outnumber Semitic Muslims
(*) South Indians--good question about the genetics, but definitely not semitic
(*) Southeast Asians--again definitely not semitic

Your contention went down in flames early!

This is why Muslims kill Jews
"Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him"'" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177).

". . . We were (sitting) in the mosque when the Messenger of Allah . . . came to us and said: (Let us) go to the Jews. We went out with him until we came to them. The Messenger of Allah . . . stood up and called out to them (saying): O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam (and) you will be safe.

[. . .]

"he killed their men, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, except that some of them had joined the Messenger of Allah . . . who granted them security. They embraced Islam. The Messenger of Allah . . . turned out all the Jews of Medlina. Banu Qainuqa' (the tribe of 'Abdullah b. Salim) and the Jews of Banu Haritha and every other Jew who was in Medina.

[. . .]

"It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah . . . say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim" (Muslim Book 19, Number 4363-4366)."

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

Islam a faux religion
King David purchased the land where the Dome of the Rock stands centuries before the faux religion of Islam was thought up in Mohammed's pea brain. Since Islam began it has tried to destroy the Hebrews. It will never happen. They are God's chosen ones whether anyone likes it or not. Islam will be long gone while the Jews will continue to prosper. I pray for the Jewish people. Jesus was a Jew and I worship Him.

Great Satan
Okay. I'll bite. I've read several of your posts and you appear to be the rebel-rousing troublemaker your moniker indicates. Your slight of hand is amazing. I believe that you INTENTIONALLY distort facts to promote the whole zionist, Israel-first philosophy.

As a Jew, you should know that Muslims and Jews are cousins. They are ALL sons of Abraham and you know it. To say that Jews "predated" Arabs is simply a lie. They are ALL Semites. You mention the separation of Palestine and recognize that they ALL shared land for centuries. Then you have the audacity to suggest that Israel was there all along when it was establish just last century.

Clearly, you can support your favorite country and share brotherhood with your Jewish brothers without distorting facts. In fact, that is honorable. But, to distort known truths is a completely different story.

Nobody is defending these crazies and their terrorism. But, I wonder if you are willing to identify wrong when the wrong-doer is Jewish.

Over in Israel right now, the government is battling with settlers who are dug in and ready to go to war with their own government over the right to squat on somebody else's property. The Palestinian landowners actually had to sue in Israeli courts to remove them. But, they won't leave. So, they're going to have their own little civil war over there. Fighting has already began....all because the zionist believe they have a right to force people to move from land they've lived in for centuries.

I'm sure you see nothing wrong with that, do you?

Worst of Lon's errors
--building an empire that was friendlier to non-co-religionists--

(*) Caliphate in Holy Land (700's-1000's), Jews were forced to wear yellow (and Christians azure) cloth patches on sleeve or headgear to identify themselves as 'dhimmis'--meaning "you can't build new houses of worship or even repair existing ones, and you cannot seek services or reparations from Muslims"; this in fact was also the basis of Nazi's "yellow-star" ID'ing of Jews, suggested to Hitler specifically by turdocrat Jerusalem Mufti Haj-amin Husseini
(*) During Ottoman conquest of Byzantine empire, Turks oft kidnapped Christian children and forced them to convert to Islam and sent them to front as "cannon fodder" in wartime; the term for these kidnapped children is "janissary"
(*) "janissary concept" was also repeated during Ottoman hold on Balkan Peninsula

Reality of how Muslims treat non-co-religionists can actually be seen in Indian history as well as Muddle East and Balkans; but Muslims are also the worst at treatment of co-religionists, as shown by "Operation Searchlight" and CURRENT Darfur (population of that region almost cent-percent Muslim) situation--hardly a religion of any good whatsoever!

About Jews not being Republicans...
I'm not a registered Republican but I vote Republican. Mainly because I do not trust any politicians in general and I for that I find it hard to commit to any party which is why I will probably forever remain an independent. Though that may change someday but until then, I shall remain an I or a U. I vote republican anyway. My family largely votes for democrats. I don't get it. The religious right aren't really as extreme or as crazy nor as anywhere near being extreme with few exceptions. However there are millions of fanatical leftist communist anti-zionist who would love to see the destruction of Israel. With very rare exception, every christian I have met or heard of has been positive about Jews and Israel yet I still have close family members who swear the christian right want to bring forth the next holocaust! If anything, its the leftist extremist Marxist who want to destroy capitalism and everything we stand for who are the real threat! And that's why I'm an Independent who proudly votes Republican!

Great Satan (TM) re. Apollyon
"Apollyon, the mechanism of God's wrath, was ordered to pass over [Passover was born from this event] the homes with the mark and take the first born males of all the unmarked homes."
Just wondered where the extrapolation about Satan performing the actual killing came from .. the Scriptures say that it was God Himself who did it. Is it from the Talmud?

Genesis 12:12-13:
On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

Oregon Lady
"To RW: Get real! Telling jews leave israel in order to be safe is ridiculous. The destruction of Israel would lead to an embolded islamofascism and further attacks on the west."

PLEASE tell me you don't actually believe such idiocy as that. Next, you'll be selling the "antiZionism is antisemitism" incoherency. Take it over to Free Republic to sell. Jews need Israel like a fish needs a bicycle.

A sidenote for Oregon Lady, others
In the case of Pakistan specifically, the country actually started elsewhere (current Pakistan, the former Western wing of the country was almost purged of Hindus and Sikhs--who together had formed over 25% of the population--between 1947 and 1951; the city of Lahore in 1941 was 57% non-Muslim compared to 4% 1951 and afterwards); the culminations of that nation's mindset showed in:
(*) 1965 suppression of a Marri (Baloch tribal--cent-percent Muslim) rebellion by Tikka Khan--for which he was permanently named "butcher of Quetta"
(*) 1971 "Operation Searchlight" in the country's then-Eastern wing--resulting in 3.5 million (out of which 2.5 million, or over 2/3, were Muslims) killed by Pakistani soldiers and their sidekick-goondas; note: it is oft stated that Operation Searchlight was second ONLY to The Holocaust in magnitude and degree
(*) 1977-1988 misrule by Zia, when over 500,000 Pakistanis (455,000 of them Muslims) were murdered by military in atrocities described by opposition leader G.M. Jatoi as "even worse than Searchlight"

.........
------ preserving and building on greek traditions……Lon------

Was this before or after the muslims burned down the Alexandria library? And the muslims tried to preserve Buddhist traditions in Afghanistan by destroying Buddhist statues and terrorizing the minority Buddhist population.

.........
----Well creating the modern numbering system,......Lon-----

The advent of the number zero is incorrectly attributed to muslims, it was actually formed in India. Muslims did however invent the suicide bomb vest.

Charles
You said, "Lon, the Moslems might be proud, but they have nothing to be proud of except their poetry and their ability to conquer, murder, and lie. All the knowledge they are credited with, was copied from others, who were then killed or enslaved. All their wealth, was stolen."

Well creating the modern numbering system, preserving and building on greek traditions while Christian controlled areas had largely abandoned them, and building an empire that was friendlier to non-co relgionists than the Christian countries could all be seen as sources of pride.

Or we could base our sense of the muslim world on cartoon images, as you do.

"We, in the US, are supposed to only hear the Jewish side of the story and nothing from the Palistinian side, yet how many people in the US know of the daily bombardments Israel is subjected to by Moslems?"

I would guess that it is probably confined to those people who read major American newspapers.


"How many in the US know of the almost daily murders and murder attempts, by Moslems?"
Well there would need to actually be almost daily murders and murder attempts (unless you are just refering to the bombings above) before it would be a bad thing that people don't hear about them. But when attacks occur like the recent Bulldozer attacks they do get coverage, and more than similar attacks happening almost anywhere else in the world would.

"How many know of the Jews and Christians be chased out of "Palistine" by the Moslems? "

Could you phrase this question in a coherent fashion?

In Israeli controlled territories Palestinians die due to occupation at a much greater rate than Israelis do due to Palestinians attacks. Despite that most Americans hear more about the Israelis who die than they do about the Palestinians who do.

There may be justifications for this. But to pretend the situation is otherwise is just delusional.

.........
------ Well, most of them had Jewish ancestors, and everyone knows the Jews are descended from pigs and monkeys, right?-------

Charles, don’t forget we make matzoa from the blood of palestinian children and steal their eyeballs to be used as ping-pong balls.

F1etch in PA
You asked, "Must liberals always be so...
...so blatantly dishonest?"

The poster MyOpine had in my mind the definitive comment on THIS when in a reply to a post of mine not long ago, he said the following: "Liberals are by definition liars".

You asked if liberals MUST always be so blatantly dishonest. Simply put, I don't see how they could still BE liberals WITHOUT being blatantly dishonest.

F1etch
Speaking of "parody", have you tried to come up with something to ding-batty for someone on the Left to believe?

Great Satan, (lol) the first sounds like the "there's two of them" joke, but the second has the ring of truth. The Turks had great contempt for the Arabs, and the whole area seems to hold the Palistinians in contempt.

Well, most of them had Jewish ancestors, and everyone knows the Jews are descended from pigs and monkeys, right? Therefore the Moslems in that area...

.........
----Why select "The Great Satan" as your
moniker?------

Satan, also known as Apollyon [The destroyer / Angel of the bottomless pit], was sent by God to free His people from slavery in Egypt. The Jews were ordered by Moses to mark their homes with lamb’s blood so that they avoided the wrath of God. Apollyon, the mechanism of God's wrath, was ordered to pass over [Passover was born from this event] the homes with the mark and take the first born males of all the unmarked homes. As we know the Pharaohs first born was killed, which ultimately led to the Jews release.

Why select "The Great Satan" as your
moniker? Don't Jews believe in Satan too? Is it to inflame and prejudice the reader before reading your words?

The fact that this is so irrational
gives more credence to what the Bible has to say.

I know that you are Jewish, Mr. Prager, but I also know you are a very wise man, and so I am betting you have read the New Testament.

One thing to keep in mind is that this war is ultimately and at its core a spiritual battle.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

When viewed in this light, it all makes perfect sense.


Must liberals always be so...
...so blatantly dishonest?

I mean, really, is it even remotely possible that someone is so incredibly stupid that they reject the evidence that conservatives are AT LEAST as likely as liberals (if not significantly more so) to support private charity and engage in volunteerism and repeat such moronic statements as: "Their response would be to let these lazy bums freeze. Now I'm sure one of you TH readers will write and say something like: well, if a few of these examples of human garbage freeze, what of it?" Can anyone really be so disconnected from reality as to believe that is the gera conservative position?

I seriously doubt it. Thus I am forced to the conclusion that - not being THAT stupid - they are merely stupid enough not to realize that everyone can see they are lying through their teeth.

Such parodies of thought serve only to make conservatives look so much better by comparison.

.........
Charles, your post on the Romans reminds me of one of my favorite passages………

“The Romans in full view of the crowds in the Coliseum were going to feed a Jew to the lions. They dug a hole five feet deep, put in the Jew standing up and buried him to his neck, so that only his head was above ground. They then let out the lion that was starved for two days. The lion with his mouth drooling went straight for the Jew and circled his prey before eating it. When it got close, the Jew bit it. It yelped and ran away. From the stands of the Coliseum, someone screamed, "Jew, Fight Fair!"

http://www.masada2000.org/FightFair.html

Also, after the Romans defeated the Jews and forced them to disperse there was still a good portion of Jews that remained, not to mention fight on. As far as Israel’s resurrection, the Jews purchased the land from the owners at the time- the Turks- and developed the land. Much of the land that was sold was malaria-infested swampland that the Turks thought the Jews could do nothing with, which is why the sale went forward. But to everyone’s surprise the Jews drained the swamplands, got a handle on the malaria carrying mosquitoes and turned dust to agriculture. The effendi- Turkish officials- did not allow arabs [“Palestinians”] to own land therefore the Jews did not “steal” arab land. The claim the land was stolen is pure arab propaganda.

Moslem pride
Lon, the Moslems might be proud, but they have nothing to be proud of except their poetry and their ability to conquer, murder, and lie. All the knowledge they are credited with, was copied from others, who were then killed or enslaved. All their wealth, was stolen.

We, in the US, are supposed to only hear the Jewish side of the story and nothing from the Palistinian side, yet how many people in the US know of the daily bombardments Israel is subjected to by Moslems? How many in the US know of the almost daily murders and murder attempts, by Moslems? How many know of the Jews and Christians be chased out of "Palistine" by the Moslems?

Jay re. what's so sad....
Yeah, good question. Why would Jewish people vote AGAINST the party that has a track record of supporting Israel? Why vote for the party of Jimmy Carter --- after all, didn't he write a book highly critical of Israel?

I believe Dennis wrote a column on this very subject. Sorry, can't provide the date, but if your look back hrough the archives (or go to his website) you might be able to find it. He had some interesting insights.

Okay, now you got me on a tangent: there was also an editorial by one of the other Jewish columnists (Ben Shapiro?) asking Jewish readers to soften their stance towards politically active evangelicals, among whom support for Israel is higher than among Jews, and another arguing that orthodox Jews should be *happy* about evangelicals since we meet the criteria for "righteous Gentiles" as defined by rabbinical scholars.

... there's a little burst of TH trivia for you :-D

Oops (for Standshisground again)
The post about Bangla/Bengali Muslims was actually @ 10:35 in response to Pat Buchanan's column--but the context still holds true.

.........
-----And what's so sad....
...is that over 80% of the Jewish people in America vote Democratic,--------

Jay, most American born Jews are indeed liberal. Foreign born Jews like myself, who've lived outside the sheltered bubble of America under tyrannical [communist] regimes, are overwhelmingly Conservative.

And still more (for Standshisground)
(you're probably getting bored by it now)

"Maybe the Pakistani government needs to remember why there is even a Pakistan in the first place: because the Muslim population of the Indian subcontinent in 1947 wanted a separate state as a Muslim homeland".

Reality was that JINNAH (a Koran-ignorant bacon-eating drunk) was power-mad; he wanted to be the ruler, but didn't want to risk losing an election (and feared Hindu majority in Sub-continent would always clobber his ambition).

Also, see my earlier note on Bangla/Bengali Muslims; plus another factoid: more Muslims than were incorporated into either wing of Pakistan (and/or decided to migrate to one of these) decided to STAY-PUT in India--leading to the strange situation of India's Muslim population perennially exceeding that of either wing of Pakistan.

Basically, the "two-nation" theory of Jinnah relied on the absurd "one-nation-Islam" theory (which Jinnah probably failed to recognise) and was untenable from the get-go.

land claims

Let's see, the Moslems have a better claim to Judah than the Jews do because the Moslems conquered the (non-Islamic) people who lived there after the Romans crushed the Jews. (note below regarding Roman conquest methods)

But, the Jews turned around and conquered the Islamics now living there and have no claim on the area, even though they grabbed it pretty much the same way the Islamics did, because they did not murder all the locals who would not convert to Judaism?

(Roman conquest methods: Most of the religions of the day were centered on holy places and run by a special group that had been "initiated into the secrets". Destroy the holy places and the special group and the religion was destroyed, and the ties that held together the group the Romans wanted to conquer were destroyed. This does not mean all the people were killed or exiled, nor that they even fled the area. This method was not, and would not be, effective against Christianity as the "secrets" are open and the holy places are not really vital to the religion. Islam shares this protection.)

Stop The Evil
We need to stop this evil. Good people need to arm themselves and use their guns so evil doesn't stand a chance. We can't allow good people to be tortured and murdered.

I am so angry about the UN General Assembly's anti-Israel resolutions passed.

Evil hates goodness- so I agree with the Chabad house response that we should "practice random acts of kindess". My prayers are will the survivors and their families.

More info for Standshisground @ 12:11
You wrote: "If open conventional war broke out between Pakistan and India, my belief is that Pakistan would be by far the more likely of the two nations to escalate the conflict into a nuclear one. Because I figure that India would kick Pakistan's butt around the block in a conventional war...". Accurate enough, as even shown in 1965, when India was both unprepared and worse-equipped--and also in 1999 when Pakistan's Gen. Musharraf (not yet dictator, but ACOS) actually DID try to escalate the Kargil conflict to nuclear (after seeing his troops had gotten clobbered at Tololing and Tiger Hill to coverage from PRIVATE cable channel Zee-TV), only to be stood-down.

And what's so sad....
...is that over 80% of the Jewish people in America vote Democratic, while the Republicans are the ones who stand up for Israel. Why in heaven do the Jewish people think they have more to fear from the Christian Right than from radical Islam??? Maybe when Iran nukes TelAviv and FluffObama does virtually nothing except offer to talk to the lunatics that did it, they will get the message.

US OUT OF UN NOW!
God damn the UN. They are anti-American, anti-Semite. When oh when will we finally leave that despotic organization?!?

In conjunction with Mr. Prager's second point: we must NEVER respond moderately to terrorism. As fanatical as these evil terrorists are, freedom-loving people must be more fanatical about eradicating the world of the cancer called terrorism.

I pray for the couple's little boy.

to joseph in il!
like jimmy carter you weep for the wrong dudes!i stand with the jews.!

So, basically
If we read into the combatant's (at what point can we stop calling them terrorists and call it the military invasive attack that it is? They didn't want to scare people, they wanted to kill people.) statement that the entire operation was planned around the assassination of Rabbi Gavriel and Rivkah Holtzberg.

Great article, Dennis; thank you.

.........
-------Curtal; you state that the Jews have a greater claim than the "Palestinians"......William-----

Curtal is right. The Jews predate the arabs by two thousand years. Never has there been an arab capitol in "palestine" and the name palestine referred to all the inhabitants of Israel: Jews, Christians, Druze and Muslims. Also i would note, one of the oldest books, the Bible, makes no mention of "palestine" or "palestinians" yet there are countless references to Jews and Israel.

The rightful owners and original inhabitants of Israel are the Jews.

My heart breaks, too
Thank you, Dennis, for a moving article. This is so important.


The Real World

Ask yourself this question? If a Saudi supported mosque and a Israeli supported synagogue both moved into your neighborhood, who would you be more likely to be supporting a young men planning to blow up a building, or shoot up a mall?

I don't care that much one way or the other about Israel, but since the people who want to harm us also want to harm the Jews, for now it makes sense to be their ally.

PS. Don't kid yourself into thinking that Muslims can be appeased by stopping our support of Israel, and/or getting out of the Middle East. Islam is imperialistic and when force can be used to their advantage they will use it. Always have, and always will. It's just part of the system.

svpallava
Thanks for the historical background.

Well, if the Pakistanis are too stupid to learn from their past mistakes, then they deserve what they get.

If open conventional war broke out between Pakistan and India, my belief is that Pakistan would be by far the more likely of the two nations to escalate the conflict into a nuclear one. Because I figure that India would kick Pakistan's butt around the block in a conventional war - and the Pakistani government, feeling the need to save face before the world, would believe it had no other choice than to escalate the conflict to a nuclear one. But as I said before, I think that such an escalation would probably end Pakistan's existence as a national entity.

Of course, a lot of people feel that this in itself would not be such a bad thing. Because without a functional central government over present-day Pakistan, Al Qaeda would no longer have Waziristan as a private training camp where it would able to operate relatively unmolested.

If Pakistan wants to LIVE by the sword: well, you know what Jesus said about those who choose to live by the sword.

Maybe the Pakistani government needs to remember why there is even a Pakistan in the first place: because the Muslim population of the Indian subcontinent in 1947 wanted a separate state as a Muslim homeland. So maybe that government should ask itself what it wants Pakistan to be in the future: a Muslim homeland - or the world's biggest Muslim graveyard.

Does anti-zionism equal anti-semitism?
Well it does not have to, but if Joseph and Phylo really did look at the whole truth they would have to admit that in many cases they are linked.

As a Christian, I don't believe the current nation of Israel is somehow blessed by God or that we would necessarily have to support it. In fact, many of the cases of abuse of power and prejudice are true, and some of the Palestinians who suffer are Christians.

That being said, comparatively the human rights abuses in Israel versus many, many other places in the world are not that bad. That doesn't mean we should not encourage better behavior, but the amount of attention given to Israel versus just about any Muslim dominated country, proves there is an over balance of focus on one nation.

Phylo and Joseph, why is that? Perhaps because built into the DNA of the Islamic system is a hatred for Jews, and the 1 Billion of them in the world help focus the whole world's attention on one little part of the world.

Does the Jewish lobby in our country worry me? No, not really, because most Jewish people are really quite educated and grow up with the same moral standards that I value. In fact, if any thing, I worry about too much Jewish influence, because they are too liberal! No, a much bigger problem for the world is the Islam push to dominate. Their religious system does not value individual liberty, responsibility, and choice, and there are a lot more of them.

For Standshisground
An answer to why Pakistan would seek war against India--because it has not learned lessons from its past wars (stalemate in 1948 due to that moron--he was dumb enough to take the case to the Useless Numpties--Nehru being PM of India, effective defeat in 1965--Pakistan gained 210 square miles of desert, losing 700 square miles of fertile plains and hills--despite of India's lack of preparedness, and decisive defeat in 1971); it proved this historically by the appointment of three unrepentant war-criminals (Tikka Khan, Zia and Beg) as Army Chief of Staff from 1972-1991.

Grace Haskell
The extended Jaskell argument (or rant or whatever one wants to call it) is mostly interesting because it largely does to the Jews what most other commentators do to the Muslims.

Particularly odd is the idea that jews are unique in considering non-ews not to count. This is just a flip of the usual nonsense that there is something uniquely evil about Islam.

But the reality is that in the US, a predominantly christian country, we have dealt with the death count in Iraq following our invasion by consciously avoiding counting it because counting it would make the invasion look worse. (There have been counts, but more American effort has gone into discrediting the whole idea than has gone into making the counts accurate).

This is not a particular evil of christians or jews or muslims. It is natural to all people that they count those they identify with more than those they don't.

America's attention to Israel does not need any conspiracy theory to explain it. Israel is the unique western style country in the middle east. Its sins, such as they are, are the same ones that most western nations (including the US) committed in establishing themselves. That is not to justify them, it is to explain them.

Similarly the Arab muslim world is a once proud region that has seen mostly occupation for an extended period, and has fallen behind the rest of the world for a few centuries now. And they act like it. Again, not a justification just an explanation.

The mistake is trying to impute this to theological differences which really aren't that different. (Do people remember the attempts to portray Iran as particularly dangerous because they believe the 12th Imam is going to assure in the end of the world, as if Christianity does not contain a similar doctrine.)

Clarification on the Quran and Islam...
The only true link between the Torah, the Bible, and the Quran is the theft of Jewish and Christian traditions and practices by Mohammed. The man traveled with his uncle, a caravan merchant, where he observed the Christian and Jewish faiths. Upon his return from the desert, he concocted the Quran, based on things he had learned in his travels, which perfectly explains why it is filled with poorly understood half-truths from both of those faiths. BenjaminBarker incorrectly implied that Islam is affected by Mohammed's errant interpretation of the Quran, but the fact is that he is the author of it, so how can his interpretations be wrong? The Quran does contain some positive (only among fellow Muslims) ideology, which is then nullified by advocating the guilt-free murder non-believers, or infidels. I know this is slightly off-topic, but I felt the need to respond to the inaccuracies of several posts.

William
And so what if the Wampanoag actually did have a claim (greater or not)? How exactly would that excuse them for suicide bombings, targeting of civilians for mass murder by any and every means and a no-compromise vow to wipe the evil occupiers from the face of the earth?

Your point, and logic, loses both ways.


Maybe "method behind madness"
In 1971, the "war of movement" used by India in what was then East Pakistan was planned by Maj. Gen. J.F.R. (expanded in Indian media to "Jack Frederick Robert") Jacob, a Kolkata-born (probably not very religious) Jew; he was present also at Ramna Racecourse on 1971-12-16, when Pakistan's A.A.K. Niazi signed the Instrument of Surrender--which led to propaganda in Pakistan (particularly reinforced during the misrule of war-criminal dictator Zia ul-Haq) that India had "forced Muslim officers to surrender to a Jew", with which many Pakistani (and Pakistan-trained) militants have been inculcated. So (given the twisted mindsets of the militants, and their handlers in Pakistan's military and intel services), it is not unlikely they saw the attack on the Chabad Centre and its rabbi as revenge for that surrender.

Edit: the other signer of the surrender was Lt. Gen. J.S. Aurora, a Jhelum-born Sikh--and Jacob's name doesn't appear at all on the document; indeed the pictures of the moment of surrender show Jacob standing behind Lt. Gen. Sagat Singh, Air Marshal H.C. Dewan and (Bangla) Grp. Capt. Khondhakar.

RE: Curtal Friar
Curtal; you state that the Jews have a greater claim than the "Palestinians"...

But by this logic, the Wampanoag would have a greater claim to Massachusetts than the US.

Benjamin Barker
In reading Mohammed's history you will find he picked and chose from other religions before making up his own. Including Judaism and Christianity. He established a following of the poor and oppressed and some wealthy supporters then used his philosophy to support his cause to murder and pillage adversaries and become rich with wives and power and wealth.
He made and broke his own rules.

Mohammed may have been visited by an angel but not an angel of light. A fallen angel.

Re: Julius Streicher
The Soviet Minister of Propaganda during WW II was Ilya Ehrenburg. Ehrenburg was Jewish and he encouraged the soviet forces to rape and murder German woman and children ... " no one is innocent ".... was hios battlecry . How does Streicher compare to Ehrenburg ?


re: Grace Halsell
Arthur Koestler , the Jewish author wrote the book titled " Thieves in the Night" . This book
alluded to the zionist colonialisation of Palestine i the 20th century . In 800 AD the Khazar tribe in what today would be southern Russia en mass converted to Judaism . That is why the origins of askenazi Jews is Slavic-Turkic ! Therefore no connection to Palestine !
That the state department could possibly equate anti-zionism with anti-semetism is preposterous since there are not a small number of Jews themsel;ves who are not zionists let alone ardent zionist like the neoconservatives who had so much influence in the Bush White House over the last 8 years.

Phylo
I don't suppose you could express any sympathy for the Jewish people who were singled out for torture and murder because of an anti-semitic prejudice all out of proportion to other hatreds.

And, no, saying they're just as bad as the "bad guys" is not the way sympathy is usually expressed by fair minded human beings.

Taft
"I like the O and N testaments too, but, as for the Koran... 'As for those who believe and do good, He will pay them fully their rewards and give them more out of His grace.' {Koran 4.173}"

Okay: granted. But this sura is talking about payment for doing good ["pay them fully their rewards"] and then adding a bonus to the reward, which is the part referred to as 'grace.' The overall concept is still totally works-based --- you do this, God will pay you for it. Grace in the Biblical sense, God granting permanent forgiveness out of of His love, is nonetheless absent as a theological theme in Islam. The very word "Islam" means "submission" and the whole religion is "do this and Allah [might] reward you." ("Might" because what Christians call "assurance of salvation" is explicitly denied in Islam. Allah might still condemn you even if you have obeyed all the rules.)

BTW, I probably shouldn't have made that crack about Saudi Arabia earlier. I don't believe free religious discourse is permitted, but I haven't been there and so don't really have the license to make blanket statements.

[Footnote, if anyone is interested: words for "grace" in the Bible ... Hebrew: chesed; Greek: agapé. KJV translates it "charity," NIV "grace" or simply "love."]

Phylo
You are ill-informed and close-minded.
A large lobby does not mean Israel is guilty of anything except knowing that she must protect herself and this is the wisest use of her money.

even the MSM shows their hand
I wish I had the exact link, but on one of the "Fox News Mobile" articles on the massacre, they called the Islamic terrorists "militants" whilst they called the murdered rabbi and his family "ultra-orthodox Jews". Perhaps they are a bit anti-Semitic,or they are afraid of what the Muslims might do to them if Muslims are defamed in the media, or perhaps a little of both.

If Islam is supposed to be this religion of peace, and those who commit these barbaric acts are merely part of some fringe minority, then why do we not call them "ultra-fanatical Muslims"?

Get Rid of the UN
You've nailed it, Dennis, yet again and I'm grateful that you have a voice that gets out. Did you see David Gregory's interview with the Chabad rabbi about the Mumbai rabbi and his wife? I didn't know Gregory could be so decent. I was in tears and the rabbi was, as they always are, so cheerful.

For all the victims in the Mumbai Chabad House: may their memories be a blessing.

Eva

Ticker
I was reading the ticker on FNC this morning. I read that they are refusing to bury this scum. I don't know what they are doing with the carcases, I hope just letting them rot. It seems that according to Islamic law the carcases must be turned over to the nearest Islamic cemetary in three days. I think that they should be castrated (to take care of the virgin situation) and then after four days burned. Make this scum afraid of hell and they'll quit

targeting Jews again
I thought I was alone in my dismay. Targeting Jews in India--all six of them. Of course, none of the people I know think there is anything to it. Thank you, Mr.Praeger.

Stop funding the United Nations Now
Stop funding the United Nations Now. Not one more penny of our tax dollars. Send them to Guantanamo.

JohnTaylor

I like the O and N testaments too, but, as for the Koran...

"As for those who believe and do good, He will pay them fully their rewards and give them more out of His grace." {Koran 4.173} ...

Islamists gain by India-Pakistan war?
If, as Prager says in his thread, one of the goals of the Islamist attackers in Mumbai is to foment open war between India and Pakistan, then this seems to me to be one of the most self-destructive actions I've ever heard of.

India has around SEVEN TIMES the population of Pakistan. In ANY open military conflict between the two, which of the two countries do these Islamists think figures to get the worst of it? In fact, I seem to recall that India and Pakistan came to open hostilities at the beginning of the 1970's - and as a result, Pakistan lost what was then East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. What would Pakistan lose in a renewed war?

Oh, but I forget, don't I, Pakistan DOES have nuclear weapons. But again, because of the population imbalance between the two nations, if Pakistan chose to turn a conventional war between the two nations into a nuclear one, again, which of the two nations stands the far better chance of coming out of such a conflagration as a functioning national entity? India can absorb the kind of losses and destruction that would end Pakistan's existence as a nation-state.

And if Al Qaeda's hand was in the Mumbai attack, to me, this is more self-destructiveness. Because if Al Qaeda incited the kind of war that ended Pakistan's existence as a nation-state, at that point, what's to stop the U.S. from doing whatever it wants to in Waziristan? Once there's no longer a functioning central Pakistani government, the U.S. would have no restraint in crossing the border to do whatever we desire to fight terrorists using Pakistan as a sanctuary - and Al Qaeda loses its best safe haven.

CurtalFriar
Don’t sweat Phylo, he seems to be a Typical Dysfunctional Liberal who is fixated on Dennis Prager.

I work with a guy who was born and raised in India, came to America after college. He showed me a website in India and they had a picture of the 1 terrorist that was captured. Limp Wristed Liberals think WATERBOARDING is torture?!?!?! This guy looked like they ran a Cheese Grater ALL OVER HIM! He tells me the popular sentiment in India is that either Pakistan hands over terrorists or Karachi and Islamabad should be made to glow in the dark.

Biblically Correct says:
"There are no similarities between Allah and the God of the Bible."

Yes, this IS correct. The God of the Bible is triune (okay, I know Jewish people aren't with me on that one) and Islam has only a bizarre misunderstanding of what that means. Just as important is the concept of grace: grace, the undeserved love and forgiveness of God, shows up repeatedly in the Old and New Testaments. Islam has absolutely no concept of grace whatsoever.

Oregon Lady: thanks for your comments about Jesus. I do believe he was the Messiah who came to redeem Israel first and all of humanity second, and I really hope that you and those close to you will accept him some day. But I find it encouraging that we can discuss these things peacefully and respectfully. I wonder what it would be like trying to have a peaceful and respectful discussion about God in Saudi Arabia ... ?

Why the neocons like Palin
Isn't it obvious that the neocons like Bill Kristol and Dennis Prager and Michael Medved are promoting Sarah Palin so heavily precisely because she would be so easy to manipulate to do Israel's bidding. She is the perfect patsy.

It's the only explanation I can think of for a man as intelligent and knowledgeable as Prager saying that Sarah Palin, a woman who can't be trusted to do an actual news conference, and has never uttered an original thought on anything in her entire life, is America's Margaret Thatcher. He knows better, but he's hoping his audience won't.

This is why these guys are siding with the part of American politics that is the most sympathetic to Israel (fundamentalist Christians) and the most militant (the Republicans). They want to make Israel's foreign policy, America's foreign policy. This is what PNAC is all about. They want the US to dominate the world militarily so that they never have to worry about the Muslims or the Arabs attacking Israel again. This is a large pert of the reason why we are in Iraq, and why the neocons want us to stay. They want they military bases to deter a threat from Iran.

Some people might see this as a clever strategy. I see it as being too clever by half. The sheer aggressiveness of it it ends up creating more and more enemies, which leads to less and less security.

Better to lead by being a fine example of decency and morality. It takes longer, but it works better.

Phylo out.

Prager

Why did the Nazis and many western societies attack the jews and try to exterminate them? One reason was because they were an escape goat for people o small brains. They saw in the few jews who lived in, say Vienna, as a threat and looked upon a few of the worst as examples of the whole. They took that example and ran with it, telling people that all jews were evil.

.

LOL
Looks like Phylo is out of his mind again.

Let's clear up a couple of things.

One, In my post to Joseph, I was answering Joseph's claim that the Palestinians had been living in Israel for 2,000 years. That is nothing but a lie, as I illustrated with my brief recap of some of the history of the area.

Two, you claim you're "afraid that the post by Joseph is correct."

Based on what? What proof do you have of that?

Let's see your sources, and what they have to say.

Phylo, I have friends from the middle east, from Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, and other places.

I have heard their accounts of the history of the area, and there is very little good they have to say about the Palestinians.

Phylo, you poor sad fool. You are indeed out, as in struck out.

I think not...
To svirk: As a child, I attended 5 years of Sunday school at the temple. We were never taught that Jesus was a liar or imposter. Most Jews consider Jesus to have been a holy man and many consider him to have been a rabbi or teacher. There was never denigration of Jesus or Christians. We just don't believe Jesus was the messiah.

To RW: Get real! Telling jews leave israel in order to be safe is ridiculous. The destruction of Israel would lead to an embolded islamofascism and further attacks on the west.

Prager's Propaganda
I'm afraid the post by Joseph is correct. We are not getting a clear picture of the situation between Israel and the Palestinians, and it's all by design.

For too many people it is an unquestionable fact that the Jews are the good guys, and the Palestinians and Muslims are the bad guys.

My experience tells me that it is almost never that simple. But if we only hear the bad things that the Palestinians do, it's easy to understand why people would see them as the bad guys.

The fact is, The Israel Lobby is the second most powerful lobby in The United States, right behind AARP. But any suggestion that US foreign policy is being unduly influenced by the supporters of Israel is immediately attacked as anti-semitic. I guess we are to believe that the second most powerful lobby exists for no purpose at all.

I think this helps to explain a lot of Prager's rhetoric, and all of the talk about Judeo-Christian values. He and the rest of his neocon buddies are doing their best to convince the American people that Muslims are less than human. This column is just another brick in the wall of ignorance designed to keep us from seeing the whole picture.

Prager says his motto is "first tell the truth, then give your opinion". It would be a good motto if he actually applied it. I think he believes that telling a very tightly focused part of the truth is good enough to satisfy the requirement.

He also likes to accuse people like me of not recognizing evil. I recognize it just fine. For me, people who try to steer others away from the Whole Truth, toward one small part of it for their own advantage, are evil. People who steer others toward the Whole Truth, are good and wise.

Phylo out.

the lesson seems to have been confused
There is no question or particular surprise that the Islamic terrorists who attacked Mumbai, like those who attacked us on 9/11 are anti-semites. Prager does a good job of bringing out the irrationality of devoting so much of their resources to a tactic which does so little to advance their cause (although the 10 terrorists seems a bit misleading since there were other people involved in the attacks who are apparently not being counted as terrorists in Prager's account).

It is not clear exactly what is supposed to follow from this. As Prager notes, the terrorists broader goal seems to be to ignite a war between Pakistan and India, or at least to prevent them from decreasing tension in a way that allows Pakistan to shift troops from the India border to Waziristan.

It would seem that the obvious lesson to draw is that we should not reward the terrorists by being drawn into such a fruitless war. And yet the comment sections suggest that people who read Prager have come away with exactly the opposite message. They want to reward the terrorists by ignoring the differences between the Islamic terrorists and other muslims.

Further proof...
... that jews are safe nowhere in the world except the U.S. We need a national policy that encourages immigration by jews throughout the world -- they benefit, and we benefit. Start by encouraging jews to leave that indefensible, bullseye of a country known as Israel.

To Biblically Correct
> There are no similarities between Allah
> and the God of the Bible.

You would have to be ignorant of one or both religions to make such a claim.

> It is an insult to the Creator and the God
> of the Christian and Jew that you ascribe
> any similarity whatsoever.

The Jews do not believe in a Trinity and consider the very idea blasphemous just as the Muslims do. Christians are the odd ones out in this respect.

> Nonetheless, "every knee shall bow and
> every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord
> to the glory of God the Father."

The Jews consider Jesus a liar and an imposter.

S Virk


Curtal Friar
By your logic, the American Indians have more right to America then we do.

Just thought I'd point that out.

"Evil hates goodness" --- Dennis
Dennis said: "Evil hates goodness. Thats why the terrorists targeted a Chabad Rabbi and his wife."

True, and as a Christian let me put an even finer point on it. God made a promise to Abraham that his decendants would be "as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore" (Jeremiah 33, Genesis 22, Hebrews 11). Satan, forever rebelling against God and forever doomed to failure, has been trying to defeat Him for centuries now by wiping out the Jews and thereby nullifying God's promise, using the Holocaust, pogroms and jihads. So Jesus could just as well have been speaking to terrorists in John 8 when He said, "you belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire."

Sounds naive and simplistic, doesn't it. But it's reality nonetheless ...

There it is
I wrote my post before seeing Joseph's (I'm a slow typist) but his response illustrates my point. Without a clear understanding of history and with an obvious agenda, he uses the new liberal thought (zionist=fascism) to spew an old hatred. So Joseph, you believe in the trash known as Mein Koph and the Elders of Zion tripe? The secret Jewish kabal is building power and amassing wealth by oppressing good people? If that's true...hey, where do I get my share?

BenjaminBarker Reply 22
Let it be known, I am not a fan of Obama at all...I think he's going to do a terrible job (hopefully I'm wrong though).

But it's a bit irrational to blame these killings on Obama being voted into office ("you ask for it...you got it!").

Don't go down that road. That's liberal style of thinking. You know, the same mentality that says Bush single-handedly lowered the gas prices right before the election, or that 9-11 happened because Bush was elected, or that Bush ruined the economy all by himself.

The events in the world are outside the control of the Presidency...even one as all-majectic as the Obama. This happened because the religion of Islam is a hateful religion whose very core is built on the extermination of the infidels.

Joseph
How much is Hamas paying you to write and promote your tripe?

Do us all a favor and shut the hell up.

Joseph spouts off:
****As I would learn, the politics is about land, and the co-claimants to that land: the indigenous Palestinians who have lived there for 2,000 years and the Jews who started arriving in large numbers after the Second World War.****

Actually, 2,000 years ago, it was Jews who lived in what is now called Israel. Back then, they called the area Judah, and the Romans referred to it as Palestina. The Romans had seized control of the area and one of their governors oversaw the region, but it was a Jewish State.

In A.D 70, there was a revolt against the Romans that was put down and Jerusalem was sacked.

Sometime around 130 A.D. (not sure of the exact date), a man named Bar Kochba started a new Jewish rebellion against the Romans, and for about three years, he managed to keep Israel free of Roman control. Then the Roman legions returned, crushed Bar Kochba and his forces, and scattered the Jewish people and forced them to leave. There may have been Arabs who lived in the area, but there most certainly were not what we call Palestinians today.

Just in case you didn't know this, Joseph, there were no Muslims in A.D. 70.

The Arabs were largely nomadic people.

It was not till after Mohammed's time (cerca 700 A.D.) that there was a Moslem presence in the area of Israel. The Moslems took Jerusalem and claimed it as one of their holy sites.

That still doesn't change the fact that the area was first a Jewish Land, and that in 1949, the Jews finally returned after a very long time away to reclaim their ancient homeland.

They have more right to the area than do the Palestinians of today.

This is a fight for all of us
The Mumbai siege was a double whammy for me.

As an American, I was horrified by the sight of the mindless hatred and violence directed toward innocent people of all faiths. As a Jew, I was reminded that those animals (and their friends) would make a special effort to kill me and my family if given the chance. But the bigger issue is that Mr. Prager is right. Numerous studies have shown that increased incidences of anti-semitism usually lead to increased killing overall. We Jews are frequently the first targets since killing Jews is more accepted around the world, but the killing rarely stops there.

Recognizing this, in 2005 the US State Department began monitoring antisemitism each year and presenting their findings to congress. The reports can be found in the link below.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/t rendtoc.html

The upshot is that anti-semitism has been increasing over the last decade and is escalating (though now being couched in more acceptable terms like "anti-israel" and "anti-zionist"). The lesson for all of us is that this is another symptom of the intolerance and, yes, the evil growing in the world. It's up to all of us to demand an end to hatred- both the type epitomized by gunning down jews and the garbage spewed at the United Nations.

Part 0
Didn't take long for someone to try to shift the focus and Mr. Prager's point.

Joseph
1948 to now is a blip in history. Any cursory reading of the Torah, the Prophets and The Writings will render a much more ancient struggle against Israel. You mention Palestinians living there for 2000 years. Who are they, really? All that said, Abraham's seed has been there long before the diaspora. The "arrival" of the Jews in "large" numbers after WWII; sounds like just new kids on the block who want to displace the rightful owners. In 70 A.D., the Roman armies leveled The Temple and Jerusalem. Do you think the squatters that were left somehow have greater claim? The Jewish power conspiracy, the great puppet masters that really control the U.S. might make for a good Hollywood movie, but where were they during the pogroms and ovens? If you are going to write about history, dig deeper.

part 7
Yet, I am not alone in suggesting that the churches in the United States represent the last major organized support for Palestinian rights. This imperative is due in part to our historic links to the Land of Christ and in part to the moral issues involved with having our tax dollars fund Israeli-government-approved violations of human rights.
While Israel and its dedicated U.S. Jewish supporters know they have the president and most of Congress in their hands, they worry about grassroots America -- the well-meaning Christians who care for justice. Thus far, most Christians were unaware of what it was they didn't know about Israel. They were indoctrinated by U.S. supporters of Israel in their own country and when they traveled to the Land of Christ most all did so under Israeli sponsorship. That being the case, it was unlikely a Christian ever met a Palestinian or learned what caused the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
This is gradually changing, however. And this change disturbs the Israelis. As an example, delegates attending a Christian Sabeel conference in Bethlehem earlier this year said they were harassed by Israeli security at the Tel Aviv airport.
“They asked us,” said one delegate, “Why did you use a Palestinian travel agency? Why didn't you use an Israeli agency?” The interrogation was so extensive and hostile that Sabeel leaders called a special session to brief the delegates on how to handle the harassment. Obviously, said one delegate, “The Israelis have a policy to discourage us from visiting the Holy Land except under their sponsorship. They don't want Christians to start learning all they have never known about Israel.”


About the Author
Grace Halsell (1923-2000) was a distinguished American journalist, war correspondent, author and columnist. She was the author of 13 books, including Journey to Jerusalem and Prophecy and Politics.

part 6
Yet, increasingly, American Jews have fallen victim to Zionism, a nationalistic movement that passes for many as a religion. While the ethical instructions of all great religions -- including the teachings of Moses, Muhammad and Christ -- stress that all human beings are equal, militant Zionists take the position that the killing of a non-Jew does not count.
Over five decades now, Zionists have killed Palestinians with impunity. And in the 1996 shelling of a U.N. base in Qana, Lebanon, the Israelis killed more than 100 civilians sheltered there. As an Israeli journalist, Arieh Shavit, explains of the massacre, “We believe with absolute certitude that right now, with the White House in our hands, the Senate in our hands and The New York Times in our hands, the lives of others do not count the same way as our own.”
Israelis today, explains the anti-Zionist Jew Israel Shahak, “are not basing their religion on the ethics of justice. They do not accept the Old Testament as it is written. Rather, religious Jews turn to the Talmud. For them, the Talmudic Jewish laws become “the Bible.” And the Talmud teaches that a Jew can kill a non-Jew with impunity.
In the teachings of Christ, there was a break from such Talmudic teachings. He sought to heal the wounded, to comfort the downtrodden.
The danger, of course, for U.S. Christians is that having made an icon of Israel, we fall into a trap of condoning whatever Israel does -- even wanton murder -- as orchestrated by God.

part 5
In the 1960s and 1970s, before going to the Middle East, I had written about the plight of blacks in a book entitled Soul Sister, and the plight of American Indians in a book entitled Bessie Yellowhair, and the problems endured by undocumented workers crossing from Mexico in The Illegals. These books had come to the attention of the “mother” of The New York Times, Mrs. Arthur Hays Sulzberger.
Her father had started the newspaper, then her husband ran it, and in the years that I knew her, her son was the publisher. She invited me to her fashionable apartment on Fifth Avenue for lunches and dinner parties. And, on many occasions, I was a weekend guest at her Greenwich, Conn., home.
She was liberal-minded and praised my efforts to speak for the underdog, even going so far in one letter to say, “You are the most remarkable woman I ever knew.” I had little concept that from being buoyed so high I could be dropped so suddenly when I discovered -- from her point of view -- the “wrong” underdog.

part 4
Somehow, despite obstacles to prevent it, the presses had started rolling. After its publication in 1980, I was invited to speak in a number of churches. Christians generally reacted with disbelief. Back then, there was little or no coverage of Israeli land confiscation, demolition of Palestinian homes, wan ton arrests and torture of Palestinian civilians.
The Same Question
Speaking of these injustices, I invariably heard the same question, “How come I didn't know this?" Or someone might ask, "But I haven't read about that in my newspaper.” To these church audiences, I related my own learning experience, that of seeing hordes of U.S. correspondents covering a relatively tiny state. I pointed out that I had not seen so many reporters in world capitals such as Beijing, Moscow, London, Tokyo, Paris. Why, I asked, did a small state with a 1980 population of only four million warrant more reporters than China, with a billion people?
I also linked this query with my findings that The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post -- and most of our nation's print media - are owned and/or controlled by Jews supportive of Israel. It was for this reason, I deduced, that they sent so many reporters to cover Israel -- and to do so largely from the Israeli point of view.
My learning experiences also included coming to realize how easily I could lose a Jewish friend if I criticized the Jewish state. I could with impunity criticize France, England, Russia, even the United States. And any aspect of life in America. But not the Jewish state. I lost more Jewish friends than one after the publication of Journey to Jerusalem -- all sad losses for me and one, perhaps, saddest of all.

part 3
`It shouldn't be published. It's anti-Israel.’
In the late 1970s, when I first went to Jerusalem, I was unaware that editors could and would classify "news" depending on who was doing what to whom. On my initial visit to Israel-Palestine, I had interviewed dozens of young Palestinian men. About one in four related stories of torture.
Israeli police had come in the night, dragged them from their beds and placed hoods over their heads. Then in jails the Israelis had kept them in isolation, besieged them with loud, incessant noises, hung them upside down and had sadistically mutilated their genitals. I had not read such stories in the U.S. media. Wasn't it news? Obviously, I naively thought, U.S. editors simply didn't know it was happening.
On a trip to Washington, DC, I hand-delivered a letter to Frank Mankiewicz, then head of the public radio station WETA. I explained I had taped interviews with Palestinians who had been brutally tortured. And I'd make them available to him. I got no reply. I made several phone calls. Eventually I was put through to a public relations person, a Ms. Cohen, who said my letter had been lost. I wrote again. In time I began to realize what I hadn't known: had it been Jews who were strung up and tortured, it would be news. But interviews with tortured Arabs were “lost" at WETA.

continued
And typical of many U.S. Christians, I somehow considered a modern state created in 1948 as a homeland for Jews persecuted under the Nazis as a replica of the spiritual, mystical Israel I heard about as a child. When in 1979 I initially went to Jerusalem, I planned to write about the three great monotheistic religions and leave out politics. “Not write about politics?” scoffed one Palestinian, smoking a waterpipe in the Old Walled City. “We eat politics, morning, noon and night!”
As I would learn, the politics is about land, and the co-claimants to that land: the indigenous Palestinians who have lived there for 2,000 years and the Jews who started arriving in large numbers after the Second World War. By living among Israeli Jews as well as Palestinian Christians and Muslims, I saw, heard, smelled, experienced the police state tactics Israelis use against Palestinians.
My research led to a book entitled Journey to Jerusalem. My journey not only was enlightening to me as regards Israel, but also I came to a deeper, and sadder, understanding of my own country. I say sadder understanding because I began to see that, in Middle East politics, we the people are not making the decisions, but rather that supporters of Israel are doing so. And typical of most Americans, I tended to think the U.S. media was “free” to print news impartially.

Dennis , stop and think for a moment !
What Christians Don’t Know About Israel
By Grace Halsell

American Jews sympathetic to Israel dominate key positions in all areas of our government where decisions are made regarding the Middle East. This being the case, is there any hope of ever changing U.S. policy? American Presidents as well as most members of Congress support Israel -- and they know why. U.S. Jews sympathetic to Israel donate lavishly to their campaign coffers.
The answer to achieving an even-handed Middle East policy might lie elsewhere -- among those who support Israel but don't really know why. This group is the vast majority of Americans. They are well-meaning, fair-minded Christians who feel bonded to Israel -- and Zionism -- often from atavistic feelings, in some cases dating from childhood.
I am one of those. I grew up listening to stories of a mystical, allegorical, spiritual Israel. This was before a modern political entity with the same name appeared on our maps. I attended Sunday School and watched an instructor draw down window- type shades to show maps of the Holy Land. I imbibed stories of a Good and Chosen people who fought against their Bad "unChosen” enemies.
In my early 20s, I began traveling the world, earning my living as a writer. I came to the subject of the Middle East rather late in my career. I was sadly lacking in knowledge regarding the area. About all I knew was what I had learned in Sunday School.

One last 2spot...
The Jewish faith has been aroung for thousands of years before muslims and the Christian faith for at least 400. Do you not think mohamad took the words of our Lord and bastardized them? How is it that muslims consider Jerusalem just as holy as do Jews and Christians? Because mohamad(and yes I am purposely not captilizing) claims that is where he was given the word of his god.

BenjaminBarker, are you deceived on
on purpose?

There are no similarities between Allah and the God of the Bible. It is an insult to the Creator and the God of the Christian and Jew that you ascribe any similarity whatsoever. Allah is a fictional character, concocted in the mind of a sexual deviant.

Nonetheless, "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father." You can take that promise to the bank. Hope you make out your bank deposit to the right authority before it is too late.

Get It?
(Reply 16, @ 5:38 a.m. EST)

Get a load of that post!

See. The problem isn't the terrorists. Nope. IT'S US!!!!

Yep. Those bad conservatives of TOWNHALL are at it again. We're to blame!!!!

Everytime I read a post by a liberal at TOWNHALL, I feel certain it can't be topped for outright stupidity. Then along comes a John Spencer and proves me wrong.

Rant on...
I see almost as much hate and potential violence in the exchanges above--and people wonder how, and from where, terrorist ideologies arise. It is always the other guy, or gal, who must "chill out," for I, my own, all-knowing, righteous self, am always above the fray. Right?

"Obama Will Be Tested"

Biden's words. How will Obama do on the "test"? We don't know. If McCain/Palin we're on board we wouldn't have to worry. Everyone knew where they stood.

Terrorists love to prey on the weak and hate it when someone strikes back. No big secret.

I'm actually surprised. I thought by now Obama would have invited the Mumbai terrorists over for tea. Why not? He stated that talking to that terrorist loving thug from Iran will help matters. Hey! Maybe he thinks talking to the vile, Munbai killers will also help?!

And what about the real test Biden spoke of.

Biden's six-month time frame begins soon.

God help us!




Also 2spot..
I very much like reading your posts you, are usually rational and have many of the same thoughts as I. I was commenting that the muslim bozos would go beserk at the mere thought that their God was the same as Jews and Chrstians.

2spot
Take a valium and chill out slick...Im saying the simalarities of the two Gods in their respective religious texts are certainly there. Unfortunately the muslims and their prophet mohamad have turned their religion into an evil interpretation of a benevolent being. I am not slamming Christians, Jews or God, just saying there is a parallel. Noah,Abraham,Moses and many others show up in the koran. Deal with it!

Why? homicidal maniacs that's why.
The same reason that saw Leon Klinghoffer shot in the forehead and tossed with his wheelchair into the sea.
The same character of men that took and murdered Dora Bloch in Kampala following the raid at Entebbe.
The same glee in the last inhuman eye Daniel Pearl saw as he was beheaded.

From Dreyfus and false charges to seedy Gauleigters, blood libel and now, Arab press and new libels, "Jewish matza made of Arab blood", the bad purpose of evil remains. New victims, different names.

Prime Minister Thatcher remarked of the IRA that "Murder is murder is murder. It is not political, it is murder."

When the Nazi War Crimes Tribunal found Julius Streicher culpable of war crimes it was not for his acts of war or political hand in the death machine. Streicher was put to death for the words and the evil he generated with those words as he whipped up hate against Jews with his "Das Stumer" propaganda paper.

The radical Islamists and the criminal PLO before are new faces of previously vented murderous hate. It doesn't matter how a young hater gets to his/her maniacal rage, once there, they are simply known as evil.

Some like Streicher turn neighbor against neighbor, person against other human person. Others take the cry and wreck havoc. Evil is both instigation and the conduct that announces its arrival.

The maniacs are armed and primed.






Saving Grace.
Well, eventually, we will kill all them sumbeaches; or living on this Earth won't be worth the nukes it takes to blow it up.

BenjaminBarker
I see. So, other than the fact that the two main religions of the civilized western world has the same God and the world that hasn't accomplished ANYTHING of positive significance in 1,400 years has another god -and prophets, and creed, and "ethic", etc., etc.-, they're all basically the same, right? Gotcha.

So what you're saying is, is that you are a heathenistic moron. I really DO see, it's all making sense now. Thank you for that illiteration.

Muslims..
If you really want to see Muslims go ballistic mention to them how their God and the Jewish/Christian God seems to be the same entity. The Torah,koran,and the Bibles Old Testaments,except for mohammeds interpretations, all seem to be identical in many ways.

If you want the history
it can be summed up in two names... Issac and Ishmael. Son of promise and, as scripture puts it, "a wild a$$."
Now if you want to go back further, Lucifer knew that the Messiah would "crush his (the serpent's)head." The Messiah would be a Jew. So, the stage was set and the drama continues to unfold.
I know, I know. It's just too simplistic. It just doesn't make sense, right?

All of this blubbering...
...about the status of islaom-nazi "rational" who, walk up to innocent women and children and joyfully, in the name of their "god", butcher them alive w/ less consideration than that afforded Tunisian livestock, and not one thought about what to do about them.

Don't stop the "random acts of kindness" but please, PLEASE consider doing something different like burying the killers in pig skins and pigs' blood. Other than that, the biggest thing missing from this column is what Prager mentioned on his show today:
THIS WOULD VIRTUALLY END IF MUSLIM "HOLY MEN" IN 98% OF THE MOSQUES AROUND THE WORLD TOLD *THE MEN THEY ARE NOW GIVING MARCHING ORDERS TO* THAT THEY SHALL SURELY BURN IN HELL IF THEY GO AROUND KILLING "INFIDELS".

*this part presupposes the impossibilty of Pragers' point, aaaaaaaaaaaand it illustrates the need to do something more forcefull like total and utter anihilation of their ability to abide w/ everyones' favorite pedophile for all eternity

In the meantime, can't we at least challenge murder symps and appologists like CAIR w/ Pragers' brilliant point? ex; "So, Mr. Kahlid Rafifi Rafofo Khalafal X, can you tell your followers and the viewers out there that ANY person who straps a bomb to his or her person and blows up other human beings will serve an eternal sentence in the perfectly tortorous fires of hell?"

Well obamabots...
Your "boy" isn't even in office yet and the shite is hitting the fan. Welcome to four years of death and destuction...you ask for it...you got it!

The answer is that
Islam needs to be eradicated. It is not a religion but a society for murderers.

How many other religions have scripture that instructs the follower to kill & murder in its name?

Apologists for this group are sorry indeed.

The UN needs to be removed from US soil and the USA needs to get the hell out of the UN!

It's a
miracle that baby survived. When will we say ENOUGH? And mean it!
We still support the U.N., paying the lions share of the dues, more like tribute to the worlds tyrants and nuts. But, our politicians, those paragons of wisdom and honor tell us every time we complain and demand we get out and kick them out tell us they know best and we NEED this nest of cockroaches on our shores.

Evil hates goodness ...
you answered the question.

Only windy politicians who are in love with hearing themselves talk would elaborate on that endlessly.
As we know that evil hates goodness, it is the duty of good men to be prepared to encounter evil and kill it as pacifism is a joke! Bad men want quick and easy gratification and are much more afraid of dying than the rest of us. This probably excludes mentally unsound folks who get an erotic charge out of their own destruction.

Truth
When will the world wake up and hear your sound logic. When will the world take action... I'm afraid it won't be until it is too late. May Gd save us all.

My heart breaks
as tears well in my eyes. Look at these two beautiful people (http://www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/773691/jewish/Mumbai-Jewish-Family-Killed.htm) and ask yourself WHY?

They weren't just killed, but horrendously tortured by these pathetic, twisted, evil young men.

May the surviving child ( http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459564,00.html) grow to do miraculous good for the world.
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