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Tuesday, March 11, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Are So Many Women Depressed? Part I
by Dennis Prager
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It is widely reported that women suffer depression at twice the rate of men. Apparently, more women are clinically depressed than ever before.

On the assumption that these assessments are true, the question anyone interested in the subject -- which means anyone who cares about any woman -- is, why?

As one who regularly talks to women, and about men and women, on my radio show and who has informally counseled women of all ages, I would like to offer some explanations that may run counter to currently acceptable ones, but which should shed light on the subject.

Assuming that any new phenomenon -- in this case, much higher rates of depression among women -- suggests a new cause, the major new cause can only be the consequences of feminism.

This does not mean that feminism has achieved nothing good. Of course it has. A movement for equality between the sexes, an attempt to remove all sex-based obstacles to a woman's right to do whatever she wishes with her life, must do some good.

But how much good feminism has achieved is unrelated to the question of whether it is a, or even the, primary contributor to the rise in depression among so many women. One can view feminism as the greatest social achievement since the emancipation of slaves and still regard it as the major reason many women are depressed.

So, enumerating the reasons feminism has caused many women's depression is not necessarily an indictment of feminism. Many good social developments come with personal prices.

We begin our list with the expectations feminism raised in a generation of women.

As I wrote in my book on happiness ("Happiness Is a Serious Problem," HarperCollins), much unhappiness comes from having expectations. When our expectations are not fulfilled -- and most are not -- we can become unhappy and even bitter. And when our expectations are fulfilled, we are no happier because fulfilled expectations undermine gratitude (we are not grateful when we get what assume we will get) and gratitude is indispensable to happiness.

Feminism raised women's expectations beyond what life can deliver to the vast majority of them. It was hard enough for women in the past to realize their far fewer expectations of marrying a good man and making a happy family. But feminism told a generation of women that they can not only expect to have that but, perhaps even more important to feminism, they could also expect to have a fulfilling, financially rewarding, society-honoring career.

I wish all Americans could hear the women who call my radio show who tell of how they were raised to believe this feminist promise, and therefore pursued often successful careers while delaying marriage. And now at 35, 40, 45 years of age, they wonder why that career is so unfulfilling and now yearn for a man and family they put off having.

For most women -- of course, not all -- careers are not nearly as fulfilling as are a good marriage and family. The astronaut who destroyed her career -- perhaps the most prestigious career in America for either a man or a woman -- out of romantic jealousy is an extreme but instructive example.

Unless one believes that women and men are the same and therefore the same things bring them happiness, the feminist emphasis on career has been an obstacle to many women's happiness. As a rule, women derive most of their happiness from relationships, not from work. Men need both to be happy far more than women do. Men's very identity is predicated on their answer to the question, "What do you do?" Whether fair or not -- to either sex -- virtually no woman's identity is dependent on what she does for a living. That is why, while both sexes suffer financially from the loss of a job, when men lose their jobs, they often also lose their self-worth as a man. The greater importance of work to men is also manifested in their willingness to work many more hours than woman.

To make things even worse for many women, not only are most women not finding their careers nearly as fulfilling as they had been led to expect, they rarely find the demands of home life lessened much. Now many women experience double the pressure -- having to succeed in jobs outside of the home and, as much as ever, inside the home. The feminist promise that everything in their marriage will be 50-50 -- each partner will do half the outside work, half the housework, and half the child rearing -- has rarely panned out. Most men will work their tails off outside the home, but won't inside the home. Consequently, many working women either experience increased tension with their husband or increased pressure to succeed both outside the home and inside the home as mother, homemaker, and wife.

Failed expectations are not the only reason many more women are depressed. But it is a big one. And there are more.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Women & Depression
It is true that women are depressed much more than men. I also agree with Dennis that failed expectations contribute to this.

I don't consider myself a hardcore feminist. In fact I am kind of old-fashioned. I think it is good for a woman to stay home and raise a family if they can afford it. That's what I did. I didn't have the stress of a career. However, I suffered from depression. I am not prone to this and in fact have a very easygoing nature and am always making people laugh. I was in a verbally abusive and extremely controlling relationship for many years. It was when I lost hope that things could ever change that I fell into depression. I stopped wanting to eat and I couldn't sleep. I recognized it right away and visited a doctor. I was on medication until a short while after I left my relationship. I started getting counseling for the pain I experienced from my relationship and am doing fine now.

I think women are like flowers and they need to be watered with love. If they don't have it, they are in danger of withering away.

One way to cheer up--listen to Dennis' Happiness Hour!

Women and Depression
Dennis- you hit the nail on the head. Feminism was the worst thing that ever happened to women. I am happy to be allowed to vote, but I am not happy that because so many felt it was their duty to their sex to go out and earn like a man, we now MUST go out and earn like a man, just to survive.

These days, it takes 2 incomes to provide for a family. This is because it is what the market will bear. We went out and raised the household income. The wage gap was not entirely met by raising the wages of women, but by lowering the wages of men competing with women in the marketplace.

We are told that we are not good enough or we are lazy if we stay home to raise our children instead of working. We are told we are bad mothers if we put our children in childcare when we need to work. We have been put in a no win situation.

We have no defined role anymore. The daycare worker can raise our children, the maid service can clean our house, and our meals can be delivered, ready to cook. We are equal partners with our men, so who needs us? Who protects and comforts us? We are displaced. Who wouldn't be depressed?

kind of pathetic really
That is all interesting on the assumption that more women are clinically depressed than ever before.

Now suppose, as seems more likely, that assumption is false, how would feminism be to blame?

Women have been associated with depression, and its predecessor names like hysteria from long before feminism took over. Back then an obvious explanation was that women had so little opportunity for fulfillment. It is not clear whether either of these hypotheses is true. But it is silly to assume what one wants to be the case is the case and then to try to draw conclusions based on it.


women & depression
Add this to what Mona and Gretchen have written:
Romance and chivalry are dead. Our world is saturated with pornography and debased, commercialized sex. Young women are NOT ALLOWED to be too choosy, much less chaste. (Who wants a girl who wants to wait until she really knows a guy before sleeping with him? Forget about wanting a commitment!) Women are necessarily CHEAP today. Then they have to compete with all the supermodels, starlets, and centerfolds.
I see so many of my female students made miserable by the hook-up culture. I see students, friends & others living with guys who won't commit to them. I want to slap them silly sometimes for being such doormats, but what can they (or I) do?
It's not so much feminism as the sexual revolution that, in my opinion, has made women miserable.

How about this?

That this is a sinful world and the sin part of sinful has separated men and woman from God and this has been the source of much depression. It as good as reason as feminism.

But finding sin as a cause and its solution to be found in Christ doesn't make for interesting columns and looking to God for answers, is well, like giving up on figuring it out ourselves.

Feminists have ruined women
The bra-burners of the 60s are now grown up and are in charge. When I was in college the women had their own dorm, a house-mother, and rules of behavior. They had to be in by 11 PM, or else, when the doors were locked, and no men allowed. The universities were "in loco parentis," and girls were valued and protected. The clinical depression and even suicides of co-eds seen today on many campuses were practically unknown in my day. The effect of promiscuous sex on the female psyche is much different and damaging than for men, but that is not acknowledged by feminists, and so it goes untreated and unremedied.

That same university I attended now has co-ed dorms with co-ed bathrooms, and everything is same-sex/both sexes except the Woman's Center and Woman's Studies, which are hostile to men-- two feminist farces that are taken very seriously by academics and feminists. Bowls of condoms are set out in the lounge areas of the dorms as a convenience to students, and pornographic movies and plays like "The Vagina Monologues" are endemic on campus. The Hookup Culture rules. The campus newspaper recently headlined and ran a series of articles extracted from a book for girls, "How to Please Your Boyfriend." It was all about sex techniques, nothing else.

All the feminists accomplished by demanding that women act like men and associate with men always and everywhere was to drag women down to the level of commodities and conveniences. They promoted, and gained, the "freedom" for women to be unpaid prostitutes without stigma. They will move in with any man at the drop of a hat. Why should a young man commit himself to marriage when he can get all the perks of marriage and still have the ability to cut and run if he feels like it? Women no longer demand commitment before they will "put out," so they don't get it.

Women no longer value themselves, thanks to feminists, so why should men value them?

Irresponsible Men & Feminism EQUAL blame
Feminism is just one part of the equation. While I appreciate MOST of what feminism brought into our lives i.e. right to vote, get a higher education, great salaries and many more possibilites including the right to work, be a full time home maker, be a half time employee and half time home maker and all the other combinations. I have rarely heard many men discuss the role of "irresponsible men" in women's depressions. I met my husband at age 29 and married him at age 31 and had kids at 35 and 38. I am one of the few fortunate women who has had it all i.e. the great career that afforded me professional accomplishment, the great husband who offered me the choice to stay home and raise our kids and only work at my leisure (which I could do because my career was developed) and a husband who promised that divorce would never be an option for solving any marriage problems. Unfortunately, too many men don't make this commitment and they walk out of marriages leaving women with the double burden of raising kids and earning an income. When men fail to live up to their responsibilities to their wives and children, women are forced to do it alone, and this can be depressing. I am not blaming men for everything but I think depression is a combination of feminist thinking and lack of trust for men because their actions mean "they are not at it for the long haul". Many professional women looked at me in amazement when I married my husband, changed my last name and decided to raise our kids. They asked me how I could trust that he would not walk away leaving me without a paycheck. I said because if I trust him enough to father my kids then I trust him to provide for us ALWAYS. So far, after 10 years together, I am amazed at the great gift of HAVING A RESPONSIBLE MAN IN MY LIFE WHO LIVES UP TO HIS RESPONSIBILITIES AS A HUSBAND AND FATHER.

I'll Iron your shirt & not get depressed
Okay, so it's not funny when a guy yells as a presidential contender to iron his shirt. However, it is funny to think that this man would probably receive services from a female doctor, lawyer, professor etc without thinking much about the quality of service. It is always difficult for me to understand men who have trouble with women in a professional setting. Watching Obama almost topple Hillary does make it clear that even the most inexperienced empty suit man out there can beat a woman any day and he does not need to do much to accomplish that. The democratic race has really brought home the point the point that we still have a long way to go as women to get equal respect. In the meantime I am enjoying ironing my husband's shirt - actually the dry cleaner does it but I do enjoy dropping it off. Who is depressed and why are they giving men that much power ove their lives?

Women & depression
Me? I am depressed because I wasn't smart enough to realize that someday, I might be living without a man. As a 50 year old widow, (no kids)
Depressed because I miss giving and receiving hugs from Tom, traveling with him, going to our favorite restaurants, supporting each other, the giving of someone I loved.

I never appreciated all Thomas did.
I should have:
-learned out to repair and figure out simple problems with my car.
-unplug the drain
-do simple maintance on my computer
-finances
--got a better education, so I wouldn't have to work at the slave shop called Wal-mart
-buy a car, without being ripped off.
et. etc.
Now I am slowly learning the above and slowly gaining confidence and no I am not waiting for "Mr. Knight and Shinning He man, to come to my rescue. "
Try to find a handyman? Not around here. The jobs are to small for them.
I was happy to let my husband do all of the above and now I am paying the price for it, emotionally and financially.

Miss you Tom. Blessing to all who read this.

Sincerely,

Sarah

WHY IS ZILCH SAID ABOUT HYSTERECTOMIES?
In all that is said and written about depression, why is no one factoring in the destructive effect of hysterectomies? The destructive effects are both mental and physical.

This procedure is performed on upwards of one million women a year, with reportedly only 10 percent of them done because of cancer or other life-threatening conditions. It is not inconsequential like an appendectomy.

Women are not told the facts so that they can make a true informed choice. Consent forms also contain the weasel words "exploratory surgery".

Hysterectomy was invented in the 1800s, when doctors did not have today's diagnostic tools. Hysterectomies are a cash cow for the butchers called OBGYN's and pharmaceutical firms.

Women should be entitled to know about the potentially destructive effects before they consent to hysterectomies.

With men
it's about respect. Men, in most of their relationships, have a "ladder" mentality. Is he stronger, smarter or bigger than me. Does he make more money than me. If we fight, can I "take him?" Is he more adept with the ladies than I am? While this may seem shallow (some women just think "God, the male ego, get over it") it is nevertheless a major part of establishing pecking order in male relationships. That's why all the aggression and competition exist, and males are content to participate in it, bet on it, and chat about it. So, most men don't tend to take something seriously that they don't respect. If a woman has no self-respect, she will not have a man take her seriously. If she grants easy sex, which is a profound desire for most men, after he gets what he wants, the challenge is gone, along with the respect. For women who feel that they are worth something, and that a man has to display certain traits (truth, honesty, fidelity, cleanliness, self-control) to be worthy of her time, a man will respond and be challenged to be that man. If he is not going to act that way, then a self-respecting woman will have no part of that man, nor will he get any part of her. I can't speak for women, but I can assure them that they must respect themselves to get a good man's attention. Ladies, don't fall for boys or "guys." Set your sights on a good man, and become the woman worthy of one.

39 years, six months married, six kids raised and still happy.

Why Are So Many Women Depressed? Part I
First, I am suspect of any "study" that creates headlines.

Second, we are all subject to "clinical" depression, certainly disappointment, when our expectations for ourselves and the world are unrealistic or counter to our respective natures.

Here is the formula for"Happiness," where:
H = the level of happiness, as defined by the individual; S = Satisfaction; E = Expectations or Desires---

H = S Ă· E

Happiness equals Satisfaction divided by Expectations/Desire.

As the Emperor Franz Joseph character in the film "Amadeus" was fond of saying: "Well! There it is."

Speaking of feminism
. . . my sister was trying to tell me that most people (to her that means feminized liberals) are looking for a "more nurturing" person to be president this time (in vain did I ask her if she thought the radical Islamists would respect a nurturer), but if Hillary tried to appear nurturing, she was seen as weak. Got themselves into a conundrum, don't they?

Anyway, great article!

Women depressed
Why women are depressed is simple. The feminization of men and men who refuse to grow up and take their rightful role in life. Yes, the feminist movement is at fault, but not for any of the reasons you state. It is simple, men are no longer manly and they no longer feel any responsibility to "take care" of their families. This puts a double burden on women. Men have bought into the feminist movement more than women because they are the chief beneficiaries. Sexual freedom benefits men much more than women. Nowadays, men do not think it necessary to marry a woman when he can get all he wants easily from the so-called liberated woman. Since all they've heard for a generation now is 50/50, they no longer see themselves as responsible for supporting their families and expect their wives to work and contribute their fair share. They think that doing a few dishes or throwing in a load of laundry from time to time demonstrates how liberated they are, like women really want their man to be liberated. Women want their men to be their protectors, not their girl friends, for goodness sake.

Good article, good comments
I agree with the posters who commented on the deleterious effects of so-called "sexual liberation".

Women are geared physiologically, and hence psychologically, toward long-term relationships with men. It's now understood that the body-mind connection is a mutually influential one. Women who defy their physiological priming toward these long-term relationships endanger their psychological equilibrium. Women are simply not geared toward one-night stands, because their biological make-up—and consequently, their psychological make-up—discourages it.

Add to that the unrealistic, culturally-fostered sense of entitlement to all life's goodies and the end result is entirely predictable.

Oh Man
Yep, those unintended consequences really suck, don't they feminists? Yea the men are certainly benefitting from that bra-burner mentality. And, while I would certainly appreciate more help from my spouse at times, life is great. I have had the luxury of being able to stay at home wiht my four kids. Nope, it is not a cake walk, and there are times when I feel less than stellar. It is not all "Father Knows Best" But we do the best we can with what we have and recognize that life, marriage can be tough. Personally, I would hate to be like my single friends that are now 44, 48. I go out once a week and cannot help but talk about my kids...they talk about who they pick up and how they drink too much. Scary!!

Happiness in Retrospect
Happiness is something you see as a result of the life you lived, in looking back and assessing the course you choose. CHOOSE is the operative word. And it is not feminism that told Ms. HavItAll that it is possible to ride two horses and win both races. It is teevee. In the 1950s there were many women who were depressed because their lives were nothing at all like Father Knows Best or Leave It To Beaver. They were overworked in thankless tasks, they could not keep a spotless house while wearing high heels and pearls, and their children were far more difficult to deal with than Wally and Beav ever were. Some were depressed because they missed the swing shift at Lockheed and all the really interesting and important work they were doing; they missed their independence and handling their own money. And many were depressed because they had to settle for any old man who wanted them, and have children they didnt want, and scrub toilets and wash diapers instead of attending the opera and dining out with friends afterward.

Today some women are depressed because they have to come to work on time, stay all day and work hard at thankless work for bosses that do not care about them. So are many men. Some women are depressed because teevee tells them they ought to be living in New York with a gang of high school buddies and having sex every two hours and wearing expensive clothing -- in fact,living the Barbie Life, with no visible means of support. Teevee also suggests that actions have no consequences save for a little temporary humiliation when Wackiness Ensues. Finding out that there are consequences and they are long lasting is depressing.

So you can choose to be depressed or to pick up your bags and get on with it. Life is choice and living with choices. Male or Female, not getting what you want is no reason to sulk.

Feminism and Equality, Baahumbug!
And who asked for equality with men? I never did. I never wanted to lower myself to be equal with men. I liked being on that pedestal and feeling cherished and respected.


Women Are A Mess
Step back, look at our women, see if their conduct and demeanor fills you with pride. If it does, you are sick. Our women overall are vain, selfish, uninformed, and crass. Such things as tattooing, body piercings (the tongue, just an overt effort to send a lewd message), bar sitting while drinking from a beer bottle, cursing, fighting in public, dressing Gothic, and being loud and obnoxious are all efforts to get attention. Depressed? They have mirrors; they see everything I see and they are conflicted between what they know to be right versus what they see themselves doing for attention. Concomitantly, they know their selfishness has claimed the unborn lives of 50 million children--he*l, that depresses me.

But is it true?
I think that the claim that more women are CLINICALLY depressed is rubbish, sounds like drug company spin. They may be sad, less happy but that is entirely different from being depressed and definitely does NOT need pills. It may just be that women talk about it more. If they are sad it probably means that their lives give them no satisfaction. This may be because modern living is more confining and gives less satisfaction to everyone. Of course every one will jump on the bandwagon with this- Not enough Religion- Too much Religion- Lack of feminine role-too much female duties in the home-men are no longer men and women are no longer women etc etc.
To have a valid study you would need to include rich and poor, religious and non religious, people living in modern and primitive societies. My Mother always said that the secret of life was to keep learning and always to have something to achieve.She was happy and a bright light to the day she died.

There Are Real Explanations
To A Man: Go invent something and make a million! "Okay, I'll try." To A Woman: Go invent something and make a million! "What? How do I invent something?"

Although Dennis makes some good points
I think Dennis's take on this is over simplified and he makes some gross generalizations.

His statement "virtually no woman's identity is dependent on what she does for a living" for instance is a generalization that I can prove is untrue.

I work with just such a woman. She derives all her identity from her work. She has never married, has never wanted to marry, has no children and has never wanted children. (No, she is not gay) She is totally dedicated to her work. She is very civic minded and gives a lot of herself to both her work and her community. I have heard her say she fears retirement. I know this is because her identity is so tied to her work. At times I feel sorry for her and yet I must say she appears to be one of the happiest women I have ever known. I wouldn't want to trade places with her because such a life would never satisfy me, but generalizations and over simplifications do not answer the question of why women suffer more from depression.

As one who has had previous and sometimes long term episodes of depression, I think most of it is simply a matter of brain chemistry. I don't believe that women are more depressed now than in the past. I think they talk about it more, is all.

Nonsense
Women have the vote, and the ability to choose any legal profession they wish. This is a primitive call for submissive women.

I love my job, my freedom, and my male significant other who appreciates the fact that I can wipe my own behind, change a tire, oil, mow a yard, etc. That is, we are together because we choose to be, not because we need each other to be a whole.

Remember, the suicide rate for men is much higher than women as men tend to try to tough it out, rather than seek help, similar to being resistant to asking for directions when lost.

This is the main fallacy in Prager's claim.

Plus Ca Change
I used to have a cartoon somewhere in a folder that showed a goldfish bowl on fire and the goldfish, having jumped to safety, are now beached on the table and saying, "Thank God we got out, but now we are equally screwed". Thus, the lot of women. First they were told (for centuries) that they must accept a secondary role and sacrifice their needs to those of others. (When I was about five this was explained to me by one of my grownups: "You always have to do what other people want, otherwise they won't like you".) Not surprisingly, many women were depressed: so would you be if the only thing you could call your own was "one of my headaches".

Then forty years ago the front door opened and women were allowed to walk through it into the big wide world. Being out there was a lot of work! Along with a job, often school as well, women continued to do the lion's share of housework and child care, not to mention endless hours of DRIVING. Marriage, family life, and children suffered, but women suffered too, not only from depression but from exhaustion, frenzy, and frustration.

I don't think there is an easy solution. If we have a bright daughter who adores chemistry, should we tell her to skip lab and be a Cheerleader? If she wants to go to medical school, should we advise her to be a beautician? If, having gone to medical school, she wants to take care of patients, should we advise her that marriage and children don't fit her plans? If she's a doctor, should she have to stay home for 15-20 years, raising kids and watching her skills become obsolete? Under depression we often find rage. Women whose role is defined for them by others have much to be rageful about.


Warrior
I would be willing to bet you are in your mid twenties to early thirties and watch way too much television.

The women I know are class acts. They are ladies. They volunteer in their communities, care for their children, work hard at their professions and strive to constantly be better people. They also are real women and not kids. Wait a while. The females you know will grow up, eventually. And one more thing. Don’t think for a minute that what you see on television is indicative of what is normal. Television has always been a place to portray the abstract and the absurd.

I'd be depressed too...
... if I believed many people thought like Teehall: "There Are Real Explanations To A Man: Go invent something and make a million! "Okay, I'll try." To A Woman: Go invent something and make a million! "What? How do I invent something?" "

Unfortunately, I do believe that.

Why Would Any Man Marry?
My description of marriage: "Marriage carries the same danger for personal destruction as walking through a mine field , bouncing a basketball while dragging a chain". Divorce laws are so financially severe for a man, that risking marriage is a non-starter. Shack-up and move on; it does not cost you a dime and the emancipated woman of today will agree to move in and play house at the asking. If your "shack" gets pregnant, you have two choices, abortion or abandonment and neither option carries any stigma. What a sorry world we have created under the guise of feminism.

Warrior
RE "They know their selfishness has claimed the lives of 50 million children": Roe v Wade was enacted 35 years ago. Most of the tattooed girls you speak of did not come into the world until after 1973. Are you suggesting that along with every other problem that confronts young women today, they should suffer collective guilt for abortions done even before they were born and ever since?

M Sederoff
I do not deny there are good women out there, you should not deny those I describe are there also and they are in ever increasing numbers. The Unwed Mother statistic grows annually. Among Blacks in Georgia the unwed Mother rate is 65%, Atlanta 82%--Whites nation wide are approaching 25%. Go to any "meat market" on Friday or Saturday night like Applebees (one example, you can name hundreds), and you will see the ones I describe sitting at the bar with tattoos, drinking from a beer bottle, hitting on some stranger while dressed in a off-white linen business suit. These women are generally loud, overplaying their hand, and appear proud of their professional accomplishments. BTW I am 70 and I have been married 48 years, with 4 children and 11 Grand children. You were a couple multiples off.

Lilly
To you, I suggest nothing.

Lilly
You have posted some thoughtful comments. Here is what I would say, and this I would say to Men and Women. Have your children younger. Don't wait till you're in your late 30's and 40's before you try to have a family. Think of it like this: Do you really want to be 60 when your child graduates high school? Do you want to be even 50 when your child graduates? If you have your children in your early 20's then by the time you are 40, they are ready to begin their adult lives, and you have plenty of time for your career still. Many people change or begin their careers in their early 40's and do just fine.

Secondly, I think because of our mobile society, people and families are too fragmented. I think one of the causes of depression in women with kids, even those who stay at home full-time as housewives, is the fact that they often go it alone. The husband is at work, and the wife is stuck with her kid(s) and no other adults, and that is hard. Adults need the company of other adults. If we could change the paradigm, and create a situation where there are more family members and friends present, it might be different. Being home with the kids would probably not be as hard or potentially depressing if the mother had the daily company of her mother, her sister, or one of her friends. The job of watching the kids would be shared, and there would be a second or third person to commune with.

Loneliness is a major cause of depression.

It Is Not Feminism! Sheesh!
Women being moody and depressed has gone on since the dark ages. We have hormones that fluctuate our moods. Feminists did not plant mood enhancing hormones in our water supply. One thing Dennis did have right, not achieving your expectations can urt one's ego, however, men are afflicted with that as well. Women are more verbal about their feelings than men are, so who is really to say women are the more depressed creature when we have a foundation of hormones that trip us up.

I also kiss the ground of those "evil" bra-burners of the 60's who made it possible for me to chose to earn a living, buy property, and be self reliant and secure without sponging onto a man to take care of me.

If it weren't for those women back then, I would be subjected to staying with my porn addicted, cheating husband, because I would have absolutely no options. I wouldn't have had the bravery to divorce him, the property I owned to kick him out, the money in my own pocket to divorce him, and the career I had to sustain myself once again.

Yeah, if I had no options, I would surely be depressed. Being stuck in a horrible situation is the worst thing one could possibly be in. So before you ladies spit on the original feminist movement of the 60's, thank your lucky stars you had options.

There is merit to your argument.
As an academic psychiatrist, I most certainly can confirm the higher rate of depression in women over men both from a clinical and research standpoint.

Amongst the many risk factors that can predispose to depression such as a family history of depression or other mood disorders and/or a history of abuse, one factor that can produce a "clinical" depression in someone with a predisposition for one, or can lead someone to be demoralized, is failure to meet expectations, whether they are your own expectations or those placed on you by society.

While the feminist movement made some gains for women, it moved the expectations bar dramatically, without, as Mr. Prager puts it, changing the fundamental definitions of what it means to be a successful man/woman. Now, I am not arguing that those definitions should be changed, b/c elements of these definitions are genetically hardwired (i.e. a woman as a mother, nurturer, etc.), and if altered would have dramatic and possibly disastrous consequences for society (as we are already seeing played out). Also as mamadoc put it above, women are more wired for desiring longer-term relationships than men, which are difficult to maintain if you are pursuing career success.

Perhaps Gloria Steinem and her ilk should take a hard look at themselves to see what they have wrought upon their sisters. My guess is that they don't care, b/c they have already made their money and fame off of this movement. Besides, they will probably look at an article such as this and claim that depression is a demeaning concept driven by a paternalistic society. Or maybe that's what they'll be telling their therapists and psychiatrists at their next appointments with them.

There is merit to this argument
As an academic psychiatrist, I most certainly can confirm the higher rate of depression in women over men both from a clinical and research standpoint.

Amongst the many risk factors that can predispose to depression such as a family history of depression or other mood disorders and/or a history of abuse, one factor that can produce a "clinical" depression in someone with a predisposition for one, or can lead someone to be demoralized, is failure to meet expectations, whether they are your own expectations or those placed on you by society.

While the feminist movement made some gains for women, it moved the expectations bar dramatically, without, as Mr. Prager puts it, changing the fundamental definitions of what it means to be a successful man/woman. Now, I am not arguing that those definitions should be changed, b/c elements of these definitions are genetically hardwired (i.e. a woman as a mother, nurturer, etc.), and if altered would have dramatic and possibly disastrous consequences for society (as we are already seeing played out). Also as mamadoc put it above, women are more wired for desiring longer-term relationships than men, which are difficult to maintain if you are pursuing career success.

Perhaps Gloria Steinem and her ilk should take a hard look at themselves to see what they have wrought upon their sisters. My guess is that they don't care, b/c they have already made their money and fame off of this movement. Besides, they will probably look at an article such as this and claim that depression is a demeaning concept driven by a paternalistic society. Or maybe that's what they'll be telling their therapists and psychiatrists at their next appointments with them.

Curtal Friar
Good post. Your loneliness argument implies something has changed thereby causing it. I don't see it; my Mother was always home and we had no near neighbors--same was true of most Mothers in my area. If my Mother was ever depressed, she hid it. I would not hesitate to use her as a good example of a "Lady" and a Mother. After 26 years, I still miss her and her cooking.

A Couple of Reasons
My wife has not been able to turn me into everything she dreams about. I don't do everything the way she wants it done. One more flower or ornamental plant is a pretty dream for her but is more work for me.

What Prager won't talk about
Prager loves to say that he talks about everything in life on his show.

But there's one thing Dennis refuses to talk about: the fact that there were never any ties between Iraq and al Queda, despite what the administration said in the run up to the war.

Here's a link to a story about a report that is about to be released by the Pentegon saying that, after looking through all of Saddam's papers, they found no evidence of any ties between Iraq and al Queda.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/29959.html

In other words folks: Bush and Cheney and Rice and Rummy and Powell all lied in order to get us into this war in Iraq.

I can guarantee you won't here this on the Dennis Prager show, or the Michael Medved show, or the Sean Hannity show, or the Rush Limbaugh show.

Impeach Bush and Cheney!

My only question is: Can you righties admit that they lied. How about you Gunny? Ready to admit you were lied to buddy?

Phylo out.



Phylo
What does Iraq and Al Qaeda have to do with this column by Prager?

Lilly, I am not including you in this statement, as you seem to be contributing to a thoughtful discussion today, but it looks like the moonbats have arrived after snorting coke.

Phylo, I have never encountered you before, but judging by this post, you are clearly off your rocker and seem to have no comprehension of even what the subject matter is.

I will try to help you. We are discussing depression in women, and the likelihood of feminism contributing to that depression. I suggest you go back and read Prager's article. Then, if you wish to post, come on back, but stay on topic.

If you can't do that, then leave. And as the saying goes, don't go away angry, just go away.

hysteria - guess again.
"Women have been associated with depression, and its predecessor names like hysteria from long before feminism took over. Back then an obvious explanation was that women had so little opportunity for fulfillment."


"Hysteria" was the diagnosis for everything from insomnia to irritability and the cure was "pelvic massage." I don't think the history of the word serves your point.

Curtal Friar
The truth hurts doesn't it?

I know full well that this article is about female depression. But I know that many of you right wingers will close your eyes to the truth on this matter and try your best to pretend it doesn't exist. And the right wing media will intentionally ignore this story. But facts are facts. Bush lied us into this damned war.

Just curious, do admit this, or are you, like the rest of the righties, totally blind to reality?

Phylo out.

Curtal Friar
Phylo used to post much more frequently than he does these days.

He is off his rocker - as you say - and is another leftist hung up on gnats with a bad case of BDS.

His trademark sign-off, "Phylo Out", is reminiscent of "Robert's" sign-off - and while Phylo is not the complete fraudulent loon that Robert is, he fits in well with Hal Donahue, lilly, Will and the other frequent moonbats that have infested Townhall.

You can ignore him - or if you are bored and in need of entertainment - engage him. He's harmless.

Curtal Friar
Funny! Between my first comment and now, Phylo posted a reply to you that is a perfect illustration of his BDS affliction and moonbattery.

Phylo isn't just "out" - he's "out there".

LOL!

Primus
I post over at HuffPo these days. Trying to straighten out Clinton supporters is as challenging as straightening out you righties. So much ignorance, so little time.


BDS
Prager often talks about how the left uses one word responses to arguments. For example they call righties; homophobe, or bigot, etc.

But you folks do the same thing. You call people the "commies", America haters, etc. The latest incarnation is BDS.

It's all just an effort to save face while avoiding getting into an argument you know you can't win. It's a sign of weakness.

Prager's statement "I prefer clarity to agreement" is another tactic of avoiding an argument he knows he can't win.

I'm always happy to praise someone who comes to their senses on this issue if you care to demonstrate that you have.

I'm just looking for a little candor out here in rightwing world, since this article is soooooo boring.

Phylo out.

Depression in women
I have read that depression is more common in women. However, more men kill themselves than women do. So the depression (and/or alcoholism) that is present in men must be a more severe variety. Being lethal makes a disease more severe, doesn't it?
Are women today happier than they were before 1960? I don't think that they are. For that matter are young men happier today than they were earlier. The pill was supposed to separate sex from reproduction for women, but, judging by the number of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies, it didn't do the job. Of course, a pill not taken (or a diaphragm or condom not used) is not of any value.
The mistake was in thinking that men and women are just the same except for their genital equipment. Another forgotten, but very obvious fact, women still have the babies-a very significant difference, and no action by the Congress or the Supreme Court can change that.
To me the feminist movement and the sexual revolution put women into a worse position than they were before.
Now I have no prejudice against women. If there were no women, I would say, "Stop the world, I want to get off." But trying to make men and women the same was and is a no brainer. I knew that men and women were different when I was a little boy and now at the age of 86, I have not changed my mind.
Donald W. Bales, M.D. retired internist, Kingsport, Tn.
http://balesblogsite.blogspot.com

Shells

You write:

"If it weren't for those women back then, I would be subjected to staying with my porn addicted, cheating husband, because I would have absolutely no options."

I would offer that if it weren't for those women back then insisting that there is no difference between men and women and the roles to which they are best-suited, that maybe the porn wouldn't be so prevalent now, and the women with whom your ex cheated may have thought twice about sleeping around with a married guy.

Curtal Friar, amen to the loneliness. Part of the depression is geographically driven, I agree. One of the things I have noticed is that women now have to drive somewhere to spend time with other women of a like age (young mothers etc.) No longer is the neighborhood a vibrant place for socializing during the day. Add to that extended families are increasingly living further apart, and you are forcing an unnatural isolation on women who are at home with their children.

Phylo writes:
"I post over at HuffPo these days."

Good for them - and us.

Better hurry back - Hillary is "surging" and you need to hold the line for Obama...

Oh Please
"I'm just looking for a little candor out here in rightwing world, since this article is soooooo boring."

Then post somewhere else!!

My god, how dense are you?? You haven't posted a thing pertaining to the topic but you apparently can't help yourself from spouting off here.

Perhaps you have a man-crush on Prager and can't help but stalk his articles in the hopes he'll respond to your silliness himself....

To yavapaid etc
Forgive me, I read only the first few lines of your post (I promise I will go back and finish it) because something you said just leaped out at me from my monitor screen. You meant to make the point that a woman had insufficient information to decide pro or con hysterectomy and you used the words "Women are not told the facts so they can make a true choice".

Since we are talking today about women and depression, it is appropriate that we address passivity. In this Internet age of information accessibility, why in the world does any patient have to wait until she---or he---is "told"? I am active on a couple of medical message boards and this issue comes up all the time: "My doctor never told me what to do". The doctor isn't Mommy or Daddy but very often that is the relationship sought by the patient, and I think this happens more with woman patients. And dependency and passivity often go hand-in-hand with depression.

Consider also what physicians are not. They are not registered dietitians. They are not librarians. They are not physical therapists. And consider what they are, which is: busy.

Do your OWN research. Educate yourself. Take notes. Read everything you can find. Check MedLine (which comes from The National Library of Medicine). The doctor is your consultant: ask him questions, but see what else you can find out. He (she) is your employee, and if you have a dinosaur doctor who still thinks he's (she's) playing the lead role Father Knows Best, find another doctor. Take charge of your life, and you may find yourself less depressed.

Phylo
Who exactly have you set straight?

I can't believe even the folks over at Huffington Post would be swayed or influenced by the inane drivel that you seem to be fond of producing.

Intelligent people, whether left wing or right wing, are rarely swayed by fools.

Rob
Given the contentlessness of Prager's claims I would not even know what to google in this extent. For example both Prager and psychdoc claim that women are twice as likely to be clinically depressed as men. But this is rather irrelevant for the "explanations" that Prager puts forward. Were women less than twice as likely to be clinically depressed than men before feminism? That seems unlikely. The early psychiatrists patientload seems to have skewed heavily female. Of course it also skewed heavily rich to upper middle class. It has only broadened to the degree it has since medical coverage has expanded.

The point is that whether women have actually become more depressed is a complicated matter. To point to studies in general with no particular evidence in mind is silliness. It is much like the people who are constantly trying to explain why crime and abortion rates have been shooting out of control since the 60's. (Surprinsingly it turns out to be the fault of liberals). This, of course, runs into the problem that such things actually fell during the '90s, they didn't rise.

We have recently seen an explosion of reported autism cases. Some scientists believe that this is not actually an increase in autism just an expansion of the definition of autism and of recognizing and reporting cases. Most of the factors involved here are also present in reports of clinical depression. So a study would have to be pretty carefully done to establish a real increase during a period of time when lots of relevant changes were occurring. But in your view just any googled study will do it? As I said, this is not something that deserves to be taken seriously.

Phylo also writes:
"It's all just an effort to save face while avoiding getting into an argument you know you can't win. It's a sign of weakness."

Phylo, the TH archives are filled with examples of people engaging you in debate - most thoroughly dispensing with your arguments in one or two posts.

I can't remember the last time you bested anyone here - which is perhaps why you now spend the majority of your time playing in the minors at HuffPo.

You are indeed a legend - in your own mind.

Run along now. I'm already bored with you.

depression
I'd be depressed too if I had to watch Lifetime TV (aka victim channel).

Well,
I used to be depressed, a long time ago, while in college.

I was trying to get an education, start a career, be successful....and have it all, just like my roommate told me I could do.

Imagine my relief, and consequent happiness, when I realized I didn't need to have it all to be happy.

And today, after 14 years of marriage, three children, and a life of service as a military wife, I can honestly say, I am ecstatic.

Equality it's simple...
Women fought hard to get equality. They now have it. They have come down to the man's level and realize their mistake. How to rise above it is now their dilemma. How depressing.

It's the anger I really notice
Shells writes
"Yeah, if I had no options, I would surely be depressed. Being stuck in a horrible situation is the worst thing one could possibly be in. So before you ladies spit on the original feminist movement of the 60's, thank your lucky stars you had options."

This is silly Shells, you have to have gone to public school to believe this. The 60's was not the original feminist movement. This was when it became radicalized. As with everything good in America, something good gets whored to its maximum by the most miserable 10-20 percent. It happened with civil rights, feminism, unions, gay stuff, you name it.

The Steinem's, friedan's, ensler's all sold women a bad bill of goods. If I recall, Men are pigs, so when women wanted the 60's feminist version of equality they opened the door for women to act the same way. When sexual liberation became about a women whoring herself rather than exploring the wonders of sex with a single partner, things went down hill. The 'you can have it all' fallacy and its damage is 1,000 percent true and also had huge negatives for women.

My observation is that a lot of women aren't just depressed, everyone gets sad, but they are angry. The most miserable people I know (Top 5) are women. Three for sure I know are libs and I''ll wager a weeks pay the other 2 are as well. I actually had a friend read me the riot act when I told her she looked great after putting on a few pounds. (she was a little to skinny for her good health and the remark was very complimentary). I'd be interested to hear if both men and women on this thread have observed the same thing about the anger factor.

The one other thing that I still am amazed at is that a lot of women have been convinced killing their unborn child is empowering....I'm lost on that one. Enjoying the debate! Cya!

Curtal Friar
You make a good point about women's loneliness. One of the first to recognize this was Dr Benjamin Spock. I realize his name is anathema among conservatives because of his anti-war stance, but in fact his original book "Baby and Child Care" became a popular handbook right after World War II exactly because war- and post-war mobility had put so many young parents far from their advising elders. Then the economic boom that came after the war often found young couples following the job> the better job> the promotion, each time meaning a transplanation among strangers. We became a more mobile society. Increasing prosperity enabled Grandma to live independently, and nuclear families replaced extended ones. All of this contributed to the young woman's loneliness as she raised her children. In the ethos of those years the husband typically worked away from home for 12-14 hours a day ("making it"), so the woman was alone, alone.

After the Feminist 'Sixties, girls educated to be "something more" found a rude shock when they had a baby because, after the hurly-burly of the workplace, they found only babytalk at home and became lonely, bored, and resentful. The alternatives were the guilt and frenzy of leaving the baby to go back to work, emotions not fully shared by Daddy, so that, once again, the woman felt alone and often was unable to distinguish between being "alone" and being "lonely".

LILLY

.....My dear girl ...it is all about hormones ...

.....I know that this will shock you down to your little pink toes but men and women are different ...

.....Yes it is true ...no matter how much the Liberal/Socialists try to deny human nature they cannot ...and this is as the Creator intended it to be ...

.....Women are frustrated because radical feminists have told them that they cannot be fulfilled until they "become" like men ...right down to being as sexually promiscious as alley cats ...since this behavior runs contrary to their basic female natures ...they become depressed ...

.....Man is the hunter and woman is the nurturer ...even when she can buy her meat at the Supermarket ...she is still a captive of her DNA ...women are most content when they are barefoot and pregnant waiting for their man to bring home the bacon .....COLOSSUS

baseballdoc writes:
"women are most content when they are barefoot and pregnant waiting for their man to bring home the bacon..."

Oh boy, now you've done it!

You are going to be pilloried all day for THAT one, doc!

LOL!

Phylo
Man, go somewhere else, like Buchanan's column, because Iraq and AQ have no place here. Or are you wearing those rose-colored glasses and making connections where there are none, again? Cognitive dissonance rearing it's ugly head, again. Oy.

To JR
RE "The Sixties didn't bring an original Feminist movement". Feminism has been ducking in and out for a lot time; in literature and social history the 1840's are known as "the feminist forties".

But if you are suggesting that the decades immediately preceding the late 1960's were feminist then you and I were living on different planets. All through my teen years I learned from women's magazines not to let a boy know if I was smart because then he wouldn't "like" me and I wouldn't be "popular", the be-all and end-all of life. Ca 1950 all the girls in my high school were counseled to take typing and shorthand because we were being prepared to be secretaries. 1950's when I lived in married students' (university) housing with my doctoral student husband, not one, not ONE married woman among my acquaintance, over 7 years, of a couple of hundred, was taking courses let along working for a degree. In EVERY case, the student in the family was the husband, while the joke was that the women were getting their PhT ("Putting Husband Through").

In the world of work of that era it was accepted that the man would work, eagerly seeking promotions and transfers, while the woman stayed home and accommodated to her husband's career moves. When I then gathered myself together and went to school (then seen as an aberrant behavior), for some years I was routinely told "women don't do research so stay in the classroom" and "you will never get on in academia unless you have a man behind you" and "you want to be a college professor? You want to be a MAN. A college professor is a MAN."

Believe an eyewitness: those were not Feminist years.

Rob - Why doesn't lilly get it?
Because she's dumb.

Rob
you say, "This has nothing to do with women being depressed back inthe Middle Ages. It has to do with their rate of depression now being twice that of males. This was not true a generation ago and the increase is alarming. "

You missed my point.

Women have been hardwired for mood fluctuations since the beginning of time due to our hormones.

I'm sure if there were a plethora of psychoanalysts during the middle ages, we may have a good argument, alas, I was only making a biological point.

But today, we do have a plethora of psychoanalysts, study groups, and pills for everything that ails you. Do you believe that 100% of the children who are diagnosed with ADD do indeed have it, or do yuo believe some of them have been mis-diagnosed and are simply "active" children?

There was no such thing as ADD when I grew up and our large classrooms were maintained, even with class clowns. Why now all of a sudden, ADD is plagueing our youth?

Same goes for being clinically depressed. Could a bad day be misconstrued as a depressive personality by a physician? Are medications necessary for a simple bad patch? When is being sad considered something that needs to be ousted? It's life. I truly believe men and women are mis-diagnosed for clinical depression because of the over abundancy we have of psychiatrists and experimental meds that keeps patients in a viscious cycle of therapy and unnecessary meds.

Ever take a psychology test for amusement? Say one thing on it that constitutes you as a human with feelings and the result is you need to seek professional help. Don't believe me? Go to Web MD and try it.

So, I do not blame feminism and my right to vote for my blues, and by the way, I'm not depressed either.

Blame the industry.

Women, like all human beings
gain self worth by engaging in positive humanistic activities and prayer. Make prayer your number one priority and shed yourself unhappiness. Prayer is the most powerful way to discover! Waking to prayer and going to sleep from prayer will assuredly heal every disappointment in life. Its benefits will reap so many rewards you never expected.

The more we pray for our families, communities, our nation, the world, we begin to act in directions anew, which ultimately lead us to self-fulfillment and inner peace.

Hours per day spent talking (about trivia), shopping, dressing, altering oneself...which was designed perfectly from the start, works against happiness and the feeling of completeness.

My heros are people who have ventured out of themselves, in order to raise a consciousness level, we could easily miss (since too much time is dictated by material and capitalisms).

Fine-tuning one's ear, in order to desipher what we want to take into our consciousness each day, works as THE tool against depression.

Walk away from TV and Magazines that lure us from the goals we set.

Focus on the things above, rather than the things seen. Live for Him and not for status, which is proving over and over again, to be the work of the devil.

There is absolute hope in prayer. Learn how to pray. It is work. But, oh, so worth it!




Dora
you said "I would offer that if it weren't for those women back then insisting that there is no difference between men and women and the roles to which they are best-suited, that maybe the porn wouldn't be so prevalent now, and the women with whom your ex cheated may have thought twice about sleeping around with a married guy."

If you understood history before those "evil" bra-burners of the 60's existed, pornography existed in ancient times, so did cheating husbands and wives.

It's easy to blame someone for the decay of morality, and suggesting women having the right to vote or work for equal pay caused the demise of my marriage is indeed a puritan stretch at best.

I will say there are fringe radical feminists groups who do women absolutely no good and they supporting Hillary Clinton only shows their double sidedness.

But to suggest those women who gave us value and choices back then so I can have a better life today made pornography more prevalent is stupid.

Pornography always existed when men could paint on walls, and couples cheated when couples existed.


JR
you said "This is silly Shells, you have to have gone to public school to believe this. The 60's was not the original feminist movement. This was when it became radicalized."

--Perhaps, but when did equal pay for both sexes come about then? When was it ok for a woman to chose any profession without the stigma it's a man's job only? Please tell me because I have a public school mentality.

"As with everything good in America, something good gets whored to its maximum by the most miserable 10-20 percent. It happened with civil rights, feminism, unions, gay stuff, you name it."

--This I will agree with you 100%. I agree there are fringe radical groups wherever you look that destroyed anything that ever came with value and goodness.

Sarah: Irresponsible women= problem
Reality: female-chauvinists (i.e., LIBERAL women) have been extremely successful in engineering what essentially amounts to consequence free, responsibility-optional lives. Thanks to their lobbying efforts focused on chivalrous male politicians & judges, women have the majority of civil, reproductive, marital, divorce, child-custody, and child-support rights in America. Result? Women are abusing “No-Fault Divorce”: women apply for 70% of all divorces while utilizing children as financial assets IOT leverage the largest amount of de facto Alimony: i.e., child support. Given their child custody monopoly, mothers commit 60% of all child abuse. Contrary to the implicit sexism of the $20B “Violence Against Women Act” (VAWA) women commit 50 % of domestic violence. Women routinely lie about spousal abuse and assault their husbands. WRT male domestic abuse, women routinely commit paternity fraud (1%- 25%) and legally force their husbands to pay for some else’s children. Thanks to the rape-shield laws women lie about rape 40-50% of the time. Women routinely employ abortion as de facto birth control that results in 25 % (1.4M) of all children conceived yearly being aborted for pure convenience. Also, those same chivalrous male politicians enacted social welfare programs ($1.4T per year) that benefit women at the expense of the majority male taxpayer base. Now society is electing female politicians who are in the process of accelerating the male to female transfer of income & opportunity. Society is de-evolving into a gynocentric dystopia.

Griff: Really?
The feminization of men and men who refuse to grow up and take their rightful role in life.

Despite all the not so apparent benefits FEMINISM (i.e., Gender Marxism) has brought to contemporary American society, American MEN continue to do all the heavy lifting (90% of overtime, 95% of all work related deaths, etc.), pay the majority of income taxes: Top 50% of wager earners (Majority: MEN!!) pay 96% of all income taxes that support a welfare state that benefits women. Despite that fact that only 60% of American women work outside the home, they control 80% of all family income. They comprise 54% of the electorate. Thanks to affirmative action/quotas, Female-only technical scholarships, (e.g. Intel), Title IX, women graduate college 33% more frequently than men. Yet they still dominate the “fun”, soft-science, mental masturb*tion degrees: english, sociology, psychology, anthropology, women’s studies, education, etc. which will guarantee that they will have trouble supporting a family & spouse, much less themselves. Why? When given the opportunity most women still don’t apply to the lucrative “analytically-challenging” majors, e.g., Engineering. Most women still enjoy the non-lucrative “fun” majors because they figure that some dumb male will eventually support them financially. The big lie that is easier being housewife than actually earning living in a traditional male profession. Additionally, American women bring about 70% of divorce actions, have children out of wedlock at least 37% of the time, and are invariably “entitled” to child custody, child support, and alimony. Their near monopoly WRT child custody results in women committing 70% of all child abuse.

Now society is electing female politicians (e.g., Hillary Clinton) who are in the process of accelerating the male to female transfer of income & opportunity. It doesn’t sound like men are the “empowered” gender in the grand scheme of things.


Society expects more

I've been married to a wonderful man since I was 18 and I couldn't agree more with this article. So many of my friends have wonderful marriages but since they don't work outside the home, they have little self-worth and feel that society expects them to have a career, too. (I'm not immune to this way of thinking myself)

I think my friends and I have put a lot of undue pressure on our husbands by complaining about "needing to do more" when our husbands would be happier if we stopped complaining altogether and could be happy with what we have.

I’ve also spoken at length, and casually with friends and acquaintances who work outside of the home; they feel pressure to "keep it up at home" as well and are exhausted. Not to mention, they are too tired for intimacy with their spouses and have no time for friends. I'm thankful to my husband that I don't have to work, but I admit that society tells me I should "be more."

Shells
I refer you back to my post where I used the word (very intentionally) "prevalent". I never suggested pornography didn't exist, but when it was more of a guilty pleasure rather than a mainstream feminist-supported medium, then I stand by my statement. Add to that the fact that women (the young especially) who live in our hook up society and dress like sluts even going to church, no longer feel any moral guilt for sleeping with anyone at any time, and you've set up a society whereby it's not only easy for husbands to cheat, but not as morally reprehensible. And yes, I do believe feminists are in large part to blame for this (must I bring up The Vagina Monologues?) And no, that doesn't make me a prude...just civilized enough to know where the fun belongs and it's not with strangers or on a street corner.

Back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs
Abraham Maslow's neat little 1943 paper had a lot of truth to it. And being a member of the U.S.A.F. from the late 1970s into the new century, well I had a heavy dose of it in various leadership and management (professional education) situations.

Once survival needs are satisfied, physiological and safety, you can then work on the social/relationship needs (which include family and social network) then comes the "esteem needs."

This is where modern society and family structure falls short. For BOTH sexes. We all like those social "thank-yous" but thrive on the direct support and cooperation of family members.

Why the discontent - most adults work two or three sets of tasks and receive little credit or recognition from those closest to them.

Not having needs met can cause stress, continued stress is a chronic condition that can develop into situational (short term) or episodic (repeated bouts) or even long term clinical depression, where brain chemistry is altered.

Fresh air, sunshine, exercise, physical contact (hand holding and hugs to well you know...) and real appreciation for what others do FOR you, helps a whole lot.

The social and societal bonds my grandmothers had are long gone, my mother and aunts had to reforge new ones, and my generation and that of my daughter and nieces are a-drift. While for some these "bonds of convention" were an enslavement, or cage, for many more, it was the structure and support of their lives.

What happened to the fem. champions?
Shells - Touche on all fronts

Doro - Right on as well. If the feminist movement came about, in part, to prevent the objectification and abuse of women, what the hell happened on the porno front. Also, the same applies with BJ Clinton, nary a peep from those charged with standing up for women being abused. For Shame Gloria, Betty, Jane and co.

Yahoo!
I'm so happy this kind of discourse is becoming public. I've been trying to interject this idea into conversation for a few years now, and people to whom the idea has never occurred stare at me as if I've sprouted a third head.

In my opinion, Women's Lib has contributed to:
1. The number of fatherless children, which has contributed to . . .
2. The number of women and children living in poverty.
3. The number of children being raised by daycare workers instead of their mothers.
4. The level of chaos in public schools populated by children who have literally had to raise themselves while their single mother worked to support them.
5. The decreasing number of children born to highly educated women while the number of children born to uneducated women increases, which has contributed to . . .
6. The number of women and children on welfare, which has contributed to . . .
7. The growing number of children who view welfare as a lifestyle choice.

Well, as you can see, the list of cause and effect relationships is endless. And, by the way, all of this is based on observations since 1980 during which I taught, by choice, in low socio-economic areas.

Death of Right & Wrong
So much man-bashing by the Right and the Left. In the book “The Death of Right & Wrong”, author Tammy Bruce exposes a pro-feminist paternal society in general & a legal system in particular that coddles dysfunctional women by rationalizing & enabling their misbehavior. IN this current state on institutionalized Misandry (Men=bad & Women=good), irresponsible men are accorded financial penalties at best and prison at worst, whereas irresponsible women are coddled by American Society. Men do bad things because they are inherently evil whereas women do bad things because exterior/interior “forces beyond their control”, e.g., CAPT Lisa Nowak, Mary Winkler, Andrea Yates, Debra LaFave, etc.

Interestingly enough, I’ve taught my son not to “sexually objectify” women, but I’ve also taught him about the aforementioned institutionalized discrimination that he will be subjected to as a male. I have made him aware that he is a “Target” in a society with institutionalized antipathy to the men, e.g. irresponsible men are accorded financial penalties at best and prison at worst, whereas irresponsible women are coddled by American Society. Additionally, I’ve taught my daughter not to view men as “success” (i.e., ambulatory wallets), and about her many RESPONSIBILITIES as a legally franchised individual that correspond to her many RIGHTS & PRIVILEGES as an American female, i.e, taking responsibility for her personal actions rather than inventing a ubiquitous, though undefined “Patriarchy” upon which to blame for all her future personal set backs.

The correlation
between feminism and just nearly all familiar decay is not questionable. Yes I allow for the benefits of voting and working etc. that came from the movement. But todays women have such a false view of who men are that they enter marriages with some seriously unmanageable expectations of the husband. After marriage it keeps being thrown at them....from work to TV to even the sermons in the church, our society is addicted to the idea that men need fixing. Is it any wonder then that a woman would be predisposed to the idea that her husband is in need of changing and that SHE has just the description of the man he should be?

Then he balks at the idea, and she files a no fault divorce. Or she stays and he and she are miserable. She leaves and he begs her to stay. After all, why stay, you've come a long way baby...now you have higher rates of all sorts of diseases, single parenthood, relational issues...but doggonnit you have a CAREER and you can buy your own dang latte thank you very much.

Demosthenes
I like what you are teaching your children. I have two little boys and agree that it is very sad to have to prepare them for a world where they are excoriated for being what they were by birth: white anglo-saxon males with no handicaps growing up in the milquetoast suburbs.
Another struggle that seems to be taught ONLY in the home now is how to treat women as intellectual equals while still maintaining chivalry. It is so rare for them to see a man opening doors for a woman, helping her on with her coat etc. How can we make our children learn respect in all venues if it is not supported outside of our own front doors?

Dora
"I never suggested pornography didn't exist, but when it was more of a guilty pleasure rather than a mainstream feminist-supported medium, then I stand by my statement."

--Ok then. But I have a question. Who started the movement that Women Are Not Sexual Objects, and also when women joined the workforce, who helped them deal with the sexual harrassment on the job?

"Add to that the fact that women (the young especially) who live in our hook up society and dress like sluts even going to church, no longer feel any moral guilt for sleeping with anyone at any time, and you've set up a society whereby it's not only easy for husbands to cheat, but not as morally reprehensible."

--Yes we have that problem. Is it just the fact we vote and work which made this happen? There are radical groups that advocate this behavior and I find it terrible, however it is not the causal factor. You can also blame the drug and free love revolution, music, television, fashion mags, Larry Flint, the internet, Bill Clinton, Neilson ratings, etc.


"And yes, I do believe feminists are in large part to blame for this (must I bring up The Vagina Monologues?)"

--I don't think the core feminists of the 60's are to blame. It's like blaming our founding fathers of our country for the behavior of Larry Craig and the governor of NY.

Let's pretend that feminism never existed and we are subjected to be non-voting home makers in this highly technological world we live in.

Do you believe that there still will be no standard of beauty to be a vision of a Victoria Secrets model? Do you think porn would not exist on the internet? Do you think girls would be less likely to dress suggestively in order to catch a husband in a highly competitive man-grabbing dependenced world we're stuck in? Do you honestly think some men would never cheat?

I will not blame my right to have choices for the decay of the moralities in this country.

I love the picture that was chosen
to illustrate this article: using a machine to try and heal depression? It is certainly a sign of the times.

But hooking a depressed person up to yet another cold, hard, unfeeling machine in order to cure depression is the height of foolishness.

We live in an age where we are more and more cut off from human contact.

People are more mobile than ever, and often live far away from their families. We work more hours, and more frequently, we sit in isolated cubicles where we can't see our fellow workers or catch a glimpse of a window.

When we used telephones, at least we could hear a human voice, but now we all email or text message each other, and our friends are reduced to a small CRT or LCD screen.

Women, who always were the center of the home, and were in constant contact with children and other women, now find themselves sitting at their desk all day, in unfulfilling jobs. Their children are growing up without them, and are often like strangers.

Doro
I can only assume that this is your first
encounter with Demosthenes. Most of us who have
seen him around for awhile are always happy to
have him show up because when he isn't around we
wonder if he is out trolling the streets doing things to women that will eventually end up on
one of the crime programs on TV. THIS IS NOT
A JOKE. His problem with women is a truly serious one.

I also wonder what crowd you run around with if
you find no examples of "chivalry." Are you
telling me that no one helps you on with your
coat or pulls out a chair for you. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, if I didn't find examples
of this type of chivalry. However, I can tell you that I go to the post office every day, and
even there, in that most public of places that is
neither liberal or conservative, rich or poor,
black or white I find men who hold the door open
for me, ask me if I need help when I am loaded down with packages, and sometimes will even
give up their place in line for me if I am particularly loaded down. And it isn't because I
am some cute young chick.



Virudh
I have no experience with Demosthenes other than responding to that one post which didn't seem to harbinger any dark, psychotic thoughts about women...but will keep an eye out for it!
I actually work and live around people whom I believe to be the exception to the lack of chivalry--mainly military, my husband, and my relatives. Outside of that rather limited group, I don't see as much chivalry. By that I mean people offering their seats to women or the elderly, helping on with coats, helping carry bags etc. It may be that it will suffer a natural death as a result of women requesting equal treatment; it's just a little sad. It could also be a function of geography...I notice the chivalry much more in the South than the Northeast.

Women only, please...
I'm not a woman, so I can't speak authoritatively nor anecdotally to the issues Dennis raises about women and depression. However, as a husband (of a woman), I have only one observation:

My wife seems to think our best "conversations" are the ones where I don't talk but, instead, listen attentively. I don't understand it, but it seems like when these "conversations" start, my sweetie may be down or discouraged - or depressed - and then after about a fifteen or twenty minute monologue, she starts to talk and feel happier. When it's over, she invariably thanks me for "one of the best conversations we've ever had"... and I didn't say a word. I just sat there fascinated that she could talk so long without taking a breath.

Question: Is the key to happiness for a woman found in having a man who will just shut up and listen and not try to "fix" it? I'd love an answer.

Rob
I agree with you, there are abuses in all studies and how medication is administered all around and that is worth taking a very scrutinous eye at.

I think people are almost encouraged not to deal with low feelings, as if that's a terrible affliction. We're so worried about everyone's fe-e-e-e-e-e-elings and they go through life in a bubble. Pop it once, and it's the end of their world. They need a pill to handle natural emotions. I want to blame liberalism in total of how we all wound up like this, but I think as a whole, we're all to blame for allowing us to become this way.


Where do you get your figures?
You have just told us that, as of late, the figures for depression in women have gone up.
And then from these "ephemeral" figures you are
ASSUMING that feminism is the cause.

I hope that the rest of your columns and other
life's work is better researched than this is.

I took a quick check on two of the most common
indicators of happiness. Suicide rates and
self-determination. Men still commit suicide
in higher rates and women still claim that they
are happy in greater numbers than do men.

That women are much more likely to admit to
depression and to then go get help is not the
same thing as being more depressed.

Since this is a response to someone's "opinion,"
I will give you my opinion. If depression is
on the rise recently it could very well be the
recent state of affairs. I cannot call myself
depressed right now but I do feel a sort of
hopelessness and helplessness as I watch our
country go down the toilet along with the value
of our dollar. I feel much like the Brits did
for a long time after WWII. We are not only no longer the Big Cheese. We don't do anything
right. We are governed by the idiot president and the even bigger idiot right-wing bully pulpit.

The two times I did suffer some serious depression was shortly after I married and
right after the death of my young son. The
marriage is still going and I have learned to
live with the death. Women are strong. They
have to be.

Alaska LOLOL
I love it, and I will explain it to you based on my feminine self.

What I am guessing you are doing right is being attentive and listening to her. You acknowledge the tone of her voice and words perhaps by nodding. Maybe you place a hand on her arm? So in that case, you don't need to speak...you are beign her rock, and that is wonderful.

My ex husband didn't speak either, but he was I assume different than what you might be doing. I would talk, and he would listen....while he would read the newspaper, log onto his PC to read his email, or change stations on the TV or play shoestrings with my cats...

Yeah...those weren't helpful talks.

So, I assume you are paying attention to her and showing your respect with eye cntact and body language. It means everything.

Prager misses the point again
This guy keeps dropping further and further in my estimation.

Women are more depressed than men. Why? From his preconceived point of view, their too uppity (feminists). From a more disinterested point of view, women are more depressed than men because they complain more. It is not that men are not equally depressed, but that they don't know how to complain about it.

In case most of you knuckle draggers haven't noticed, men are trained from infancy to "suck it up" and get on with life. This is why women outnumber men in therapy: because men are trained to live with it. Most men would not be able to put a tag on depression if it hit them in the face.

Doro
I am headed off to work, but I did have to make
one comment about the military. You are so
right about their politeness in general. My
son was in the Marines and whenever we went to
see him, everyone ma'am-ed me. It was fun. He
even called me that on his trips home.

But outside of the military I neither expect
it - or want it. Ma'am makes me feel old. And
from my son - mom works real well with me. When
he wants to irritate me he calls me ma, and then
he laughs.

Shell, some radical ideas here...
"Who started the movement that Women Are Not Sexual Objects..."
it could be argued that women's rights were and are an outcome of economic and technological change in the 20th century. WWII forced women into the workforce and the transition continued. Dealing with sexual harassment on the job is something that arose as a result of more women in the workplace and had to be addressed. I base this argument on the fact that most women I knew growing up (I'm Gen X) in the late 60s early 70s were not radicalized feminists but middle-aged women with college degrees and jobs. for the feminists for the very reason that they were stripping women of their dignity.

--"Yes we have that problem. Is it just the fact we vote and work which made this happen?"
I do NOT believe the radical feminists in the 60s were responsible for the natural transition of women into the workforce. That is not to suggest that they were irrelevant to women's rights, but their radical agenda, in my opinion, IS to blame in large part for the fact that women are self-obsessed and more desperate for men to notice them than they ever were when I was a teen.


Shells, radical ideas part 2
"Do you think girls would be less likely to dress suggestively in order to catch a husband in a highly competitive man-grabbing dependenced world we're stuck in? Do you honestly think some men would never cheat?"
Again, I thought we were discussing the prevalence, not existence, of porn and lack of morals. Of course there will be standards of beauty, cheating, pornography, etc. My point is that there is much less morality, responsibility and compunction associated with these things thus making them much more acceptable.

"I will not blame my right to have choices for the decay of the moralities in this country."
I see those two as independent from each other. I think a there were and are strong women working to pave the way for later generations and for them, I am grateful. I do not count among them the feminists as we have dubbed them, who were at the very public forefront of the movement (Gloria Steinem, Jane Fonda and the ilk.)

Depression
The only time I've been depressed in life was when I tried to live up to other people, including feminists expectations.

Now, that I've learned what the Lord's expectations that he has for me as a woman are, I'm blissfully, joyfully happy.

After 26 years of being married to the most wonderful guy, two children whom I homeschool, life couldn't be better than this.

The whole concept of family values and a sense of right and wrong are gone from much of American society and the price is being paid, in unhappiness, unfulfilment, heartache and depression, just to name a few. Their are consequences!!

The future of Psychiatry
One of the first things I'd do is question the validity of any psychiatric study at this point. The psychiatric field is blowing apart. residencies programs are only half-filled, there is a concentration on drugging people over real therapy, and there is a reduction or complete absence of coverage for treatment from ins. companies. If you look at the composition of psychiatric staffs, you'll notice a huge increase in foreign physicians (this is true in other specialties as well, but is acute in psychiatry). So it seems obvious to me that if you have a doc from India, coming from a vastly different culture, and who may be struggling just to speak English, asking this guy to diagnose an American woman for depression is going to meet with questionable results and very likely skewed views.

Right on!
bmr, excellent points and congrats on your happiness. One thing I haven't seen discussed, in detail anyway, is how the radical movement tried to make men and women enemies. I suspect the ones who did that were not in danger of being pursued, thus they were miserable and narcisistically (sp?) had to make everyone else equally miserable.

Also, someone warned of Demosthenes, but if he is mentioning Tammy Bruce's book, the death of right and wrong, he is doing something right. It's the best book on politics and social issues I have ever read, and I've read a lot.

I notice that Fonda and Steinem get a lot of mention. the problem with the feminist and other movements is that the Dinosaur media hold these fossils out as representative of the movement. It's the same with Sharpton and Jackson.If people were exposed to thinkers like Tammy on feminist stuff and Sowell, Mcworter on black stuff, the dinosaurs would become extinct and so would the victim culture from which they were born. However, if Obama gets in and his wife starts yappin again, it will set back black progress in this country by leaps and bounds.




Dora
Obviouly we're on the same side, but we're looking at it from differet angles.

I have acknowledged that there are core fringe radical feminists that celebrate the V-monologues, Girls Gone Wild, and using your "assests" to obtain what you can in life. Those groups are bastardized cast offs from the true movement.

Like the civil right movement, was an absolutely necessary group in essential for equality among all MEN, however...we've got Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Luis Farah-CON out of it.

If I were making your point, I would say, I hate the civil rights movement, if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have Obama running for president! As much as I detest the thought of him or Hillary being in office, that swooping statement still cannot hold water.

And yes, during WWII women went off to work while men went Over There. When they came back, women were not able to keep those jobs and were replaced by the men they stepped in for. I don't recall a sexual harrassment suit done in the 40's...

I also don't recall any major message back then during WWII and right after of women are not to be treated as sexual objects either...Rosie the Riveter was a beautiful woman, so were the pin up girls...

The Take Me Seriously generation in my opinion came during those 60's and 70's. And I still will never blame them for giving us Paris Hilton.

Society comprised of men, women, teachers, parents, and the media gave us Paris. Blaming feminism in total for cheating husbands, lose women, pornography, unhappiness and depression is short sided and agenda driven.

Shells
I agree that we're arguing the same points. And again, I do not think 60s feminism is solely to blame for any of those things, but certainly did contribute. I still maintain that the gradual blssoming of women's rights had more to do with natural historical progression than the strident voices of self dubbed feminists!

Thanks for the interesting exchange and I'm glad you're rid of the cheating ex!

I have a sister inlaw .....
who is always trying to figure out why she is feeling like she is feeling. Why is she sad, why is she depressed. She gets her doctor to give her Zanax, she does bio feed back, and guess what she still feel sad and depressed. I think she spends to much time thinking about how she is feeling. Sometimes we just do not feel good, some times we are sad, that is just the way it is and most times it will pass. If we keeping thinking about it, it just keeps hanging around.

I have been married for 23 years, if asked what our secret is my husband will say "Low expectations and to lazy to do anything else". He is joking, but I think there may be some truth to the expectations part.

Doro
I sincerely hope I misread your post to Shells, because you sounded as if you were blaming feminists and wives for men's cheating and love of pornography. Listen to me: each of us is responsible for what he does. If a man smacks his wife across the face he is likely to say "That's your fault---you know how to get me mad". If a man rapes his 12 year-old daughter he is likely to say to his wife "That's your fault because you wouldn't have sex with me". If a man is an alcoholic he is likely to say "My drinking is the fault of my (wife, mother, boss, father)". Blaming somebody else is the first refuge of the emotionally immature person ("Look what you made me do!").

If the priest likes to diddle the altar boy, that's the priest's fault, not the altar boy's fault. If a man would rather look at Internet porn than go to bed with his wife, he is the emotionally immature party. If he is a Bill Clinton, Eliot Spitzer-type serial cheater, please don't blame his wife. Women have been blamed for enough, through the ages, that is not their fault. Let this stop right here.

Lilly
"I sincerely hope I misread your post to Shells, because you sounded as if you were blaming feminists and wives for men's cheating and love of pornography."

You did.

Reality
" Although the exact reason for this difference is not known, the higher prevalence of depression in women is most likely due to a combination of gender-related differences in cognitive styles, certain biologic factors and a higher incidence of psychosocial and economic stresses in women.2"
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Depression/women.as p

Nothing about feminism there. Just heard a thing about women in Iraq and its very depressing. Those who didn't go to Jordan to become prostitutes or be blown up in their homes, now are rarely seen driving. In Saddam's Iraq women drove a lot.

Feminism was good
When it focused on giving women the legal status of adults and when it focused on giving people equal opportunities and respect. When it went too far, however, in expecting equal outcomes and in trying to dissolve social structures, it caused a lot of problems.

I think it is good for a woman to strive to be the best in whatever she pursues - whether it's academics, music, athletics, etc. Even if she only has a career for a few years, the experience she gains by doing this will help her be a better wife and mother. She will understand her husband's work pressures better, be a better teacher to her kids, etc. Also, hopefully she will have better resources so she can better deal with the isolation of being a stay-at-home mom. (I think that is a cause of depression, btw - many homemakers now are much more isolated than they used to be.)

The problem is not that women strive for goals, or want to be strong people. The problem is that they think that a career is the only path. The reality is that for many women being a wife and mom as primary role is more fulfilling. If feminism was about freedom, then feminists would support women making the choice to stay home with their kids. Also, if feminism was about mutual respect and fairness, the dissolution of the nuclear family would not be a goal.

Unfortunately, modern feminism isn't about freedom, choices, fairness or mutual respect.

Feminism isn't the problem

From my observations over the last 50 years I would say that a major increase in acceptance of sin is the problem.

For example when I was a 12 year boy in 1968 only BAD boys would look at Playboy. Now everyone except "prudes" buys Playboy. Back then you would NOT see ANY nudity on TV, today you cannot watch even PG shows at night without fear of Victoria's Secret ads.

My point is, back in 1968 the majority of Americans lived by and expected "Judeo-Christian" values in themselves and their neighbors. Now we are told if it "feels good" just do it.

In 1968 I was an agnostic and didn't know if there was a God, but most of the people and culture around me acted like there was a God and they tried to avoid sinning. Now people act like there is no such thing as sin, so of course they sin more.

My point is if Men (myself included) acted more like Christ and LOVED their women with their whole hearts and were willing to die for their women before they would ever hurt them, you would see most of the ANGER and DEPRESSION in women go away over time.

If Men in the USA would return to Christ and follow his example of unselfish love and give themselves completely to their wives and children, you would NOT see MEN having sex outside of marriage and MOST of these problems with women would go away.




Yavapaidiane is right
Most of the comments here are wrong. Clinical depression is a disease. Just like diabetes, lupus, MS, etc. I was a happy, easy going and very athletic. I have a wonderful husband & 4 great kids. All that changed after a routine hysterectomy. Now I take 3 medications, just to function well enough to fix a bowl of cereal. Depression is very misunderstood. It effects the mind and the body. Doctors don't even fully understand it, and they never will. In the meantime we will be mocked and the source of jokes. This will never change. I can only hope to endure and finish raising my kids now.

The biggest misconception is....is that women are more prone to the disease than men. I have met countless men with the disease. Only they don't know they have it because they use alchohol and other drugs to numb the pain.

Lilly
Dr. Spock? are you kidding?
No one has done more to destabilize the family than that moron - his anti-war stance notwitstanding.
His child rearing positions have led to the whining, dysfunctional family relationships we enjoy in society today - the charlattan was dangerous and has set back civilization

Dora
I enjoyed our talk too!

And yes, I am happy to be rid of the ex, and quite glad I had the wherewithal to handle it effectively!

It was hard to compete with his Barely Legal Asian Nannies Volumes I-XI...what a wonderful discovery that was a week after my wedding....I didn't even open up half of my wedding gifts and BAM, I received this gift...LOL You have to laugh!

Shells
LOL! Love the resilience of being able to laugh...but you're right. It is laughable.

Bee Gee
If you think it's only the women who are disgusted with the hookup culture, you're by no means seeing the whole picture.
That culture was women's idea actually, to prove that they could 'have it all', just like men, and adopted some of the very lowest forms of male behavior, such as wholesale promiscuity, instead of some of the higher forms of male behavior.

Women let it be known that they do not value a gentleman. Ask any young guy and he'll tell you they go after the guys who treat them like crap.

I know a young woman who's baffled by the fact that her boyfriend hasn't asked to marry them (never mind she slept with his two best friends last week).

The hookup culture and the move-in-together culture has hurt young men every bit as much as women.

Feminists Hate and Suppress Femininity
The main problem with feminism is that it assumes that the man's way of thinking and living and acting is natural and normal and that the woman's way of thinking and living and acting is somehow abnormal and must be suppressed. Is it any wonder, then, that women are depressed, since feminists have told women that their natures are something to be suppressed and ashamed of?

LILLY (7:52am)
Beautiful job of articulating the dilemma and its evolution over the past few generations. Great post.



career or motherhood

Even for a woman who chooses motherhood, I think it critical for her to have learned a trade or gotten a profession (whatever best suits her capabilities) so that she is able if needed to support herself and her family. Most of all, I think it's a safeguard against being trapped in an abusive relationship. Economic dependency should not be the reason for that in this day and age.
Educate your daughter.

yavapaidiane
There's no excuse nowadays for you to play such a victim. Information is freely acceptable. Actually, the public library has been around for quite awhile as well.

Read LILLY's post to you. She said it a whole lot better than I.

I don't get your beef,(what IS your beef?)
If you're crying victim, you're doing yourself a grave disservice.

Rob
I tried your google search. I got lost of articles claiming that women are twice as likely to suffer from depression as men. I got none arguing that this represents an increase from the days before feminism.

On the otherhand they do seem to agree that this 2-1 ration begins in the teen years which is hardly consistent with the idea that it is a result of growing disillusioned with their careers and the idea that they can have it all.

In otherwords following your suggestion seems to confirm the idea that Prager's argument is unscientific nonsense.

But you are right, it is possible to get a lot of articles indicating that Prager's article is unscientific nonsense. Any idea how to find articles which support what he is saying?

Absolutely!
I enjoy many of the positive consequences of the feminist revolution, but recognize the downsides - one of which is exactly that:

The expectation of having a fulfilling career alongside a happy, healthy family is a serious burden to us women who have grown up in the post revolution era.

As I work full time outside the home, and return home for my second full time job (which I don't get paid for!), I find that I can't even complain about the overload...

I am happy to see the trend of young women choosing to stay at home during their children's tender years, and hope to be able to do that when I expand my family further.

Thank you Dennis fro your thoughtful, kind approach to this subject. God bless.




Dead on, Alaska...
Alaska wrote:

Question: Is the key to happiness for a woman found in having a man who will just shut up and listen and not try to "fix" it? I'd love an answer.

Got it in one, Alaska. At the risk of generalizing, men converse to exchange information. Women converse to express their emotions. I have learned over the past 25 years that I need to tell my husband up front if I need a solution to my problem, or if I just need him to listen to me.

Granted, about half the time, he'll say, "Isn't one of your girlfriends available to do the listening thing?", but when I tell him I need HIM to listen, not them, he's always game if not enthusiastic.

Sometimes women just need to be able to sort through what they're thinking and feeling "out loud" to get a handle on everything.


Sexism
What kind of sexism is Dennis pushing?

The reason for female depression is their long deserved opportunity to be equal? !

Naturally it takes time to adjust to the transformation of being oppressed for centuries.

Women have to work today, like it, or not.

If it were not for Republican economics over the last four decades (building a 10 Trillion dollar debt) maybe we could afford only ONE worker per family, to earn what it takes to pay the bills of a family. Let that One worker be the female, if she wants to.

Depression is caused by living in the society we have built, not the age old question of who am I, and what do I want to be?

The opportunity to pursue happiness has been squelched by the demands of current day realities of providing the basics, in an economy that has been allowed to "do what it wants to", because conservatives think it's wrong to enact regulations that might make it easier for people to survive.

If a woman wanted to stay at home, she cannot because of economics. A man's self-worth is attacked by the fact that no matter how much he works, he can't pay the bills on only his salary.

The only way a job is the best self-help program, is if that job pays enough to live within the current economic situation.

What good is it to work 60-80 hours a week, or have two wage earners in a family, if people still end up filing for bankruptcy?

That is the reality of living in todays society. No wonder women (and men) are so depressed. We do what is correct, and it doesn't meet the basic financial needs of a family.

Dennis is oblivious to the average American, with his multi-million dollar income. Maybe he can afford the "traditional" family of the past, the rest of us are just doing what ever we have to, to get by.

It's what happens in a prosperous...
society. Human nature cannot be changed. No matter how much we have we're always going to want more. The problem is the media keeps telling us that we're entitled to more. And the media is constantly bombarding us with the "chickification" of our "culture." How men are to blame for everything. Meanwhile we live in an age where people go out to eat dinner whenever they want and think nothing of dropping $100 on sushi during the week. Too many women have been watching Oprah for too long thinking that will bring happiness. We have way too much time on our hands w/o a sense of sacrifice for anything beyond our own needs. And that leads to a lot of emptiness. I know many good men out there who are single,own their own home,work hard(usually their own business)not poor by any means but not flamboyant and exciting I guess. They seem much better equipped to deal with isolation as it helps them build prosperity. I guess I'm referring to the "nerds" that women wouldn't date in their prime years but are now out trolling for the nice guys since their looks have gone south and there just isn't enough money to support those kids and the lifestyle she's adopted. The truth is women can have sex whenever they want. Men can settle down whenever they want. Dennis one of the first articles I ever read of yours you made a reference as: My grandmother had a far better idea of what a mans needs were then any of these modern women today. The situation is only getting worse.

the issue of choice...
Being able to make choices and affect your destiny is empowering and should contribute to one's happiness.

The right to choose, as applied to the issue of abortion, has probably been the worst thing for our society to come out of the feminist revolution. I think most women who decide to discontinue a pregnancy do not/cannot imagine how they will feel afterwards. We are led to believe it is a legitimate choice, just like any other. Well, it isn't. The sadness, grief, and guilt that follows an abortion is almost unbearable.

I recently saw a Joni Mitchel movie - about her life, art, and music. She tells of her own unplanned pregnancy at 19, and the fact that she did what others did at the time - disappear for a few months to complete the pregnancy, 'offer' the child for adoption, and come back to college as if nothing happened. Later she describes her reunion with her daughter and her granddaughter. I suspect that this was fulfilling as much as, or more than her spectacular achievements.


Feminism is just another fruit
on the tree of the knowledge of the good and evil that 'looks good to eat, pleasant to the eyes and appears to make one wise' and when women bite on it, well, the bible has the rest of the story.

TIME - Democratic Congress
TIME writes:
"If it were not for Republican economics over the last four decades (building a 10 Trillion dollar debt) maybe we could afford only ONE worker per family, to earn what it takes to pay the bills of a family."

If it were NOT for Democratic Congress and the WAR ON POVERTY where TRILLIONS have been spent and we still have poverty and Federal welfare DESTROYED the Black Family by giving free money to unwed mothers, American families would NOT be OVERTAXED and could afford to live on ONE Income.

My wife has stayed home for the last 25 years and we have got by on my ONE income; however, we do NOT buy new cars and go on expensive vacations.

Why do some welfare mothers drive new cars and I don't? Something is wrong with this picture.


TIME - Democratic Congress part 2

I have paid over $125,000 in income taxes over the last 20 years and NOW I can't afford to pay for College for my children because my taxes go to pay poor children and welfare for lazy people.

So TIME don't tell us it was the REPUBLICANS, cause we know the Democrats claim that Republicans would starve the poor and NOT raise taxes to pay for welfare.

Depression in women
Where have you been for the last 40 years. As far as I can remember from my psych classes in Medical School, women have always been found in every survey ever done to have a higher rate of depression than men. They attempt suicide much more often but men are more successful at it. This is not new news. "The Tadpole".

Dennis...half of it
I don't know how Dennis managed to take the usual feminist bashing route, but he did.
First of all, he failed to mention that NOT working or being skilled in a trade isn't an option for most women. This isn't about materialism, but simple basics. To have a roof over one's head these days takes more than half of a single paycheck. And, face it...a lot of men can't be counted on to keep their marriage vows.
Aging...and competing with younger women in the workplace for decent wages is a serious problem too for women.
If there are women here who are still married after many years, or never had a serious illness in their lives and/or economic downturns in their lives...you were simply LUCKY in so many aspects.
Sometimes marriage and children ISN'T a choice for many.
And never marrying or having children even when one wanted them instead of a career isn't the end all and be all of a fulfilling life either.

Brett
When Carter left office, the national debt was about 900 Billion dollars. When Reagen left office it was almost 5 TRILLION dollars. When Clinton left office it was about 6-1/2 Trillion dollars (not to mention he had the first balanced budget in decades). When Bush I left office it was about 7-3/4 Trillion dollars. When Bush II is through the debt will be 10 TRILLION dollars. That's 9 years of Democratic Presidents in which the debt raised 1-1/2 Trillion dollars, but 20 years of Republican Presidents, in which the debt rose over 7-1/2 Trillion dollars. In that time welfare, and food stamp programs have gone down (Clinton had the welfare reform bill). Health programs have gone up, mainly for children. Military costs rose more than any other department, and of course Clinton, cut military spending. So keep trying to convince me it's ALL the Democrats fault that we are going bankrupt.

My Two Cents
This is my two cents. Whenever I read an op-ed piece, I try to be objective. I also try to the best of my ability to relate it to myself and everyone I know to gage what rings true. In this case, so far, a lot of this is true. We as women are in a no-win situation. The only thing I am not sure of, is whether or not women are more depressed today than they were in yesteryear, or whether or not women would be just as depressed if the feminist movement had not occurred. (I don't think anyone advocates that!) I suspect they would be-but I definately do not think most women are truly depressed and definately not all the time!

about a month ago
Eric G Wilson wrote and interesting article for the LATIMES on melancholia. The subtitle was that in a happiness obssessed culture, sometimes feeling bad can be a good thing. At least in his analysis, sorrow carries it's own kind of creative flow. You are motivated to b more introspective and people who are fine artists can do their best work when dealing with their lowest emotional levels.
Also those valleys do make us appreciate being happy and recognizing it when we are. One could say that the drug addicted culture and taking drugs for granted is a symptom of constantly looking to be high or artificially happy 24/7. Perhaps YEARS of depression will eventually wear you down, body and soul. And one still does need a healthy safety valve in which to release some of those sad feelings.
But the article was worth a read.

Du, interesting
I have always heard that from my parents growing up. They used to tell me that everyone gets blue, that there is no guarantee of constant happiness, and that happiness wouldn't seem so great if it were a constant state. I've always thought it was great homespun advice!

I was going to post some comments
But, Demosthenes seems to have already covered all the bases for me. Thanks.

Barak Obama has won Mississippi
President Obama
President Obama
President Obama


i told you how prayers bring ***
you guys had better pray.

Somewhere in the middle . . .
Let's all be wealthy. Let's all be brain surgeons. Let's all be whatever. I think the "lie" of any "ism"--in American culture anyway--is the assumption that "freedom" automatically includes "capability" on an intellectual and emotional level. As far as feminism is concerned, leaders of the movement stake their personal claims for whatever reasons and project those same needs on the mass of women in this country as a universal attribute available to all women (which it is if you chose that lifestyle) and attainable (if you are consistently willing to pay the price of true independence). Some women are well-suited to achieve a level of "success" in the movement, but as with all other facets of life, most of us are in the middle being pulled both ways and wishing we could have the best of both worlds. Then the truism "You can't have it both ways" kicks reality back in unless you are skilled enough to maintain that existence and willing to sacrifice career, ambition, mate or children along the way. A small percentage of our population will be successful, but the other 98% can only listen and hope life can be as "fulfilling" minus the high costs of believing the hype.

Depression v. aggression
Yavapaidiane, Don, and some others here have gotten closer to the "explanation" than Dennis Prager has. Women get depressed and seek treatment. Before there was treatment, women just got depressed.

Men, on the other hand, commit suicide and violent crime -- both far, far more than women do. What man is going to admit that he is "depressed," and present himself in a clinic for therapeutic processing? Seeking treatment for nagging but marginally bearable personal problems is not a typically male way of doing things. Wait till they wheel you in on a gurney. That's the ticket.

Prager has some good points, but in the end, we all have to learn that it isn't SOCIETY that has to change, in order for us to transcend depression and be happy. This goes for the person who wants society to revert to more traditional practices, as well as for the one who thinks his (and everyone else's) happiness depends on subverting traditions. The latter is a perpetual adolescent, but the former isn't actually a whole lot wiser.

Women don't get depressed because of feminists, they get depressed because humans go through periods of sorrow, pessimism, self-doubt, and self-deceit. If they were men, they'd act it out differently. But they're women. They do what women do: look for therapy, discussion, etc. So they report their symptoms and get the attention of the medical and scientific communities, instead of the attention of the police and the corrections system.

WTF????
"ssuming that any new phenomenon -- in this case, much higher rates of depression among women -- suggests a new cause, the major new cause can only be the consequences of feminism."

Did you just go and pull this out of your arse? This is crazy!!!! Anyone who thinks this way is CRAZY! End of conversation.


why oh why...
"I wish all Americans could hear the women who call my radio show who tell of how they were raised to believe this feminist promise, and therefore pursued often successful careers while delaying marriage. And now at 35, 40, 45 years of age, they wonder why that career is so unfulfilling and now yearn for a man and family they put off having."

...do you So-Cons believe it has to be one or the other? (depending on if you want both in the first place) What cave have you troglodytes crawled out of? People, wake the phuck up - it's the 21st century, for chrissakes!

You've come a long way, baby!
Jaybird: "They will move in with any man at the drop of a hat. Why should a young man commit himself to marriage when he can get all the perks of marriage and still have the ability to cut and run if he feels like it? Women no longer demand commitment before they will "put out," so they don't get it. Women no longer value themselves, thanks to feminists, so why should men value them?"

So what are you arguing here? That women should sell themselves to the highest bidder? Oh, yeah, that's progress!

Wake the phuck up, So-Con Women!
Griff: "Feminism and Equality, Baahumbug!
And who asked for equality with men? I never did. I never wanted to lower myself to be equal with men. I liked being on that pedestal and feeling cherished and respected."

Saying you don't want to have equality with men is not being put on a pedestal: It's quite the opposite.

get real, Mr. Mess
Warrior: "Women Are A Mess
Step back, look at our women, see if their conduct and demeanor fills you with pride. If it does, you are sick. Our women overall are vain, selfish, uninformed, and crass. Such things as tattooing, body piercings (the tongue, just an overt effort to send a lewd message), bar sitting while drinking from a beer bottle, cursing, fighting in public, dressing Gothic, and being loud and obnoxious are all efforts to get attention. Depressed? They have mirrors; they see everything I see and they are conflicted between what they know to be right versus what they see themselves doing for attention. Concomitantly, they know their selfishness has claimed the unborn lives of 50 million children--he*l, that depresses me."


Oh, really?! Like men are any better! Go look in the mirror, hon, and get a life!

What a prize is this one, girls!
Warrior: "Why Would Any Man Marry?
My description of marriage: "Marriage carries the same danger for personal destruction as walking through a mine field , bouncing a basketball while dragging a chain". Divorce laws are so financially severe for a man, that risking marriage is a non-starter. Shack-up and move on; it does not cost you a dime and the emancipated woman of today will agree to move in and play house at the asking. If your "shack" gets pregnant, you have two choices, abortion or abandonment and neither option carries any stigma. What a sorry world we have created under the guise of feminism."

Well, with your outlook and attitude, I am sure you have a steady stream of women just lining up for such an honor with you, turd!

Oakley
It is all about identity. Where anyone, man or woman finds their identity, that will dictate their sense of purpose and well-being.

Women or men who have their identity wrapped in job, success, materialism or even family will ultimately be disappointed.

We are designed for something much greater than the temporal world we live in, where we all live and eventually die. We are designed for eternity.

The ultimate authority on the subject is God Himself. Women and men are spiritual beings in need of spiritual nourishment and direction. His directions on life and marriage, if followed, do not disappoint, hence the ability to live life to it's fullest and without regret.

Finding one's identity in God (Christ) is the only true identity we were created for, thus the only satisfying and purposeful. Everything else is only temporal and time sensitive. We all know it deep down, but are given the freedom whether to ignore it.

oh, pu-lease
CharlieEcho: "Equality it's simple...Women fought hard to get equality. They now have it. They have come down to the man's level and realize their mistake. How to rise above it is now their dilemma. How depressing."

Yes! Women . go out and be doormats. Now that would be not depressing!

Study your history, folks
Once and for all, there never was any "bra-burning" back in the 60s. This is a big myth that has somehow persisted. I suppose it's because certain types of people are threatened by the image of bra burning women, for whatever reason. (I think that if you are large chested, it would be rather uncomfortable)

Caligula, you flunk history
1968: The infamous “bra-burning” occurred, but it didn’t quite involve busty feminists stripping off their bras to “free” themselves in a male dominated society. A group of women were protesting the 1968 Miss America pageant and threw bras, girdles, high heels, make up and hairspray into a rubbish bin as a symbol of their anger. They were protesting for the liberation of women in a male dominated society, and saw these objects as restrictive to their cause. The rubbish bin was set alight – hence the “bra-burning” reference.

What have we taught our daughters?
A report came out today that 25% of teen girls have a STD. African American young ladies 40%. Almost one half of the babies born now in the U.S. are to single mothers. For years we have told our daughters you can be just like a man in sports, in school, in business, in politics, and sex. There is just one little problem, God made women to have babies, and care for them while the man provided for them both. So the good ole american male has said I love this arrangement, sex with no responsibility. Its no wonder the women are more depressed than ever. They are under the gun at work, and taking care of the kids at the same time. There are 2.4 million people in jail in this country. One out of every 30 males between the age of 20 and 34 are in prison, at a cost of 49 billion a year. The break up of the family with no father at home, as a result of the feminist movement, the sexual revolution of the 1960.s, abortion, greed, and moral decay has no doubt added to the number of depressed women. God has a perfect plan for one man and one woman to raise a family with each providing the nurture, and strong guidance in the home. We blew it, I am not sure we can get it back.

No Peace
"But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked." Isa 57:20-21

"...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them: because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." Isa 66:3-4

"...so that they are without excuse: Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God...but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves; Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen...And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convienent..." Romans 1:20-28

I Peter 4:11

There's the 60's again
Well said Califson. Most of all the ills of this country were born out of the 60's, it's so easy to see. If you can find it, check out Dave Horowitz's Destructive Generation. He's a former commie radical who saw and lived the heart of the movement.

When they talk about how all the hippies finally grew up, cut their hair and became lawyers, teachers and Dr.'s and judges the problem was they didn't really grow up, they just took their warped belief system into those fields, and that is why we are in so much trouble. These weren't smart people with bad ideas, they were idiots with bad ideas, and now they have power.

Men and women are not equal
Yes, men and women are of absolute equal value, for most completely different "functions", with yes some overlapping in some functions, within as to how God created the human race, to function happily, etc. Yes, feminism has yet to come up as to how a man can carry in his belly the unborn on this magic of 50-50 formula. While feminism had basically open space to promote such satanic theory, Christian leaders and other Scripture believers, men and women just basically stood by and did nothing in opposition; yes in reality to a great degree joining in. Now we have America, the nation under God and claims to trust God, where more American women live with no man than do. So, I salute Mr. Prager, ere late, to come up with this article and promoting his book. In closing may I suggest when it comes to procreation women are actually much more favored within the power God granted to humans to create another being in God's image, hence that great privilege women have to indirectly rule the world, as per the old saying: The hand to rocks the cradle rules the world. However, it is hight time for men to rise up to their responsability, to aid in such as God himself demands from every man.

Depression comes from one thing alone.
Unfulfilled lives!

Do something from the inside out and wash moodiness, sadness, depression away.

All people (particularly self-absorbed people) get it BECAUSE WE HAVE BECOME A 'SOCIETY' OF I WANTS.

The further we believe we need to be from prayer, spiritual living and generousity, the closer we will always fall to unsatisaftory living.

This is scientifically proven.

wildwest
if there is one thing that you are not, it is that are NO judge of people, where they come
from, who they are, what their life is like, or
in anyway what they are all about.

But I imagine that you will continue your psycho-
analysis of every liberal who comes down the
pike, and we of course will be devastated.

I would suggest, just for the heck of it, that you learn to tell the difference between
sarcasm and a desire for actual debate.

Why are women depressed
This column suggests that more women than men
are depressed. I am not buying that. But I would
buy that they have more reason to be depressed.
And if you want some idea of what those reasons
might be, just read some of the sanctimonious
responses under this column.

In essence, people , both men and women,
are still trying to put women in their "place" as
defined by them. Oh yes, I am told that it is
also defined by God, but I'm still looking for that
passage. And please don't quote scripture to me.
I have heard it all before, and I am still not
convinced that the reason why I was created was to
bake cookies.

WHO CUT YOURS OFF
Lemonade writes: "In essence, people , both men and women,are still trying to put women in their 'place' as
defined by them. Oh yes, I am told that it is also defined by God, but I'm still looking for that passage. And please don't quote scripture to me.
I have heard it all before, and I am still not convinced that the reason why I was created was to
bake cookies."

This "ra-ra-ra" Wimmin's Army 8th Route March stuff really wears my hole.

It stems from a brand of feminism that sees power, prestige, and control over one's life as being conferring by having a d*ck.

Since the angry feminist has tried without success to grow one, she's determined that men won't have one either, if she has anything to do with it.

Worst of all are the whipped males who collude in their own psychological emasculation.

Sad.

What women want
Mr. Prager, I don't know whether you are clueless or simply evil, but I am inclined to suspect the latter, because your doctrine is a poison pill to the psyche - of both men and women.

People who exist above an animal level of consciousness need self-esteem, a state which hinges on the belief that one is fit to live. Being fit to live does require one to be productive in an objective way. Changing diapers as one's sole lifetime profession is not objectively productive, and you know it.

Women tend to hold more irrational beliefs - they tend to believe they are more helpless than they really are, that things are harder and riskier than they really are, that being moral means you exist in a continual state of owing everybody something, and that no one really has a right to succeed or be happy for themselves. What affect do you think these kind of beliefs will have on a person's fitness to live? (Then, to make matters worse, we have a government that makes it significantly harder to be successful).

For you to say that women will be happy if they just abandon the requirements for self-esteem is an abomination.

Prazac Ladies
I know, we are bad. :D

Fickle, moody, oppositional, it's just not good, but you wonderful men put up with us. How DO you do it?

Speaking as a female
I have lived long enough to have more than one man try to tell me "how women feel", what they want, and why they are 1., depressed, 2., not depressed, 3., angry, 4., happy, 5., fulfilled, 6., unfulfilled, ad nauseum.

It seems to me that the only people who usually don't generalize about women are women themselves.

Don't get mad at Prager, ladies, he's just doing what men like to do, and they basically don't know any better.

No one Takes Your Self Esteem From You
No one can take your self-esteem away from you. Nor can any outside force/person, increase your self-esteem. Our own perceptions of things are what make us evaluate our own selves in one way or another.

Neither what you do or don’t do, nor what another human being thinks of you, can change your value in any way at all.

We look at circumstances and make judgments and then from those judgments we reform our thinking; implementing some kind of change to a certain standard we perceive as necessary. But using outside influences for the measurement of ourselves ends up with us harming our own self-esteem.

There is an eternal part of us that can’t be changed by outside forces. But what we believe about ourselves, whether in a negative or a positive way, determines how enabled or hindered we become.

When we are presented with conflicting information it is not the actions around us that change our circumstances, but our interpretation of that information that will cause us to be encouraged or defeated.

Going from one side of the argument about the role of a women in the world around us, does not change our self esteem in any way other than from our own perceptions of what it is doing to us.

That is why it is so confusing. We see women happy and healthy and emotionally well balanced, on both sides of the argument of what a women is supposed to be. But we also see women on each of those sides who are not prospering well. It hasn't anything to do with where they are on the opinion of a women's place, but what each individual does with their own interpretations of the circumstances.

We need to be true to our authentic selves and then all the rest of the things will come into balance around us.

Yea, I am depressed....
because I have worked fulltime for 34 years, still doing all the chores at home, including cutting the grass! So I still do everything I was always expected to do. Husband does not want me to retire yet, complains that the price of gas is too high. Yet, I drive 70 miles a day - could sure use that money. Damn right I am depressed!

Feminist and other movments
The Feminist movement may be like other movements in that at the beginning, the social iniquities they wish to correct are usually just. After the problem has been rectified, then in order to remain a recognized organization it must drum up another cause and exaggerate facts. Unfortunately, many people will believe the exaggerations.

More depressed women? Or?
Are more women depressed these days or is it simply that women have a stronger voice in society today and therefore the problem is given more importance?

Depression and migraine headaches have plagued the women in my family for at least four generations. As a 60 year old woman I have seen a huge change in how these inter-related problems are perceived by people in general and doctors in particular. As our knowledge of brain chemistry has improved, we now not only understand some of the underlying causes, but have developed treatments.

I am one woman who is not lacking gratitude for my condition in the world. To the contrary, I thank God everyday that I live in this era and do not have to suffer in silence like the women who came before me.

Depression and Feminism
First, I would say that women just naturally tend more to depression as a coping mechanism and response to the world in general. Just as men tend more to anger, punching holes in walls and shooting people with guns or engaging in violence.
Anyway, I don't mean that as a slam to either men or women but just a general observation.
As for the feminist movement, I consider myself one of the lucky ones. I did indeed start a career and am a professional woman earning a good income. However, along the way, I realized that this would not be satisfying and certainly not fulling to me even though I was also married with a working spouse. So, we decided to have children. At first, it would (and still would) be much more logical for me to continue working FT and him stay home since I am the higher wage earner. However, I found that thought completely unacceptable as I WANTED to be home with my children. I wanted to wipe their little noses and give them their baths and change their diapers, etc.
My point, we chose to sacrifice some income so that we could have a more traditional lifestyle. I did not quit work but continued working part-time while he is FT. I am much happier and our home atmosphere is much more enjoyable.
I see many moms working FT with kids at home and they have the haggard, running as fast as you can look on their faces hoping nothing happens or the whole thing will crash and burn. Sorry, I just cannot live that way nor do I want to. I just don't have the stamina for it anymore. And, many women don't either but have no choice due to the present day financial circumstances.
Feminism has also served as a wage equalizer. Instead of women's wages really going up, mens wages have just stagnated so now it does take 2 income earners just to survive.

Women's Amendment. Women's Constitution.
Women have been in a consistent state of discontent since before the 19th. Amendment and ever after. It is their Nature.

fuzz-ems
Permit me, if I may, to change one word in your refreshingly candid post at 03/15/08, 8:01 AM:...."My point, we chose to sacrifice some income so that we could have a more traditional lifestyle".

Respectfully, would you consider the word "natural", to be more accurate than the word "traditional"? I think so. The left has beaten the word "traditional" into meaning something of dubious value, but "natural" is almost a mantra. But your "traditional lifestyle" really is more "natural" than the Lefts "soccer mom's".

I also agree, in part, to your conclusion regarding the the process of the equalization of men and women's incomes. It is a less then zero-sum accomplishment of American society and I think that the kids paid the monetary and emotional deficit.

Excellent post.

Du
When you mention men not keeping their marriage vows, keep in mind that women initiate over 70% divorces (someone here already mentioned that).

Nellie
God does not listen to Obama's prayer nor any of his supporters. Obama and Hillary signed pacts with the devil with their blood.

Anastasia
STOP playing victim and take responsibility for your situation in life! You have chosen to do the things that you now lament. YOU chose to work 34 years and to still do household chores. YOU choose not to retire. Is your husband holding a gun to your head to force you? YOU choose to drive 70 miles a day to work.

Why do you act like a victim? What's in it for you? What is reinforcing your pitiful victimhood?

I think feelings of hopelessness lead to depression. Those feelings may not reflect reality so take a good long look at yourself and make a change NOW!

fuzz-ems
You state that women,
"...have no choice due to the present day financial circumstances.
Feminism has also served as a wage equalizer. Instead of women's wages really going up, mens wages have just stagnated so now it does take 2 income earners just to survive."

This sounds to me like a justification for you to keep working outside of your home. It IS very doable for you to be a fulltime mommy if you simple CHOOSE to lower your living standard to match your husband's income. Many, many women do it. Have you allowed your living expenses to rise to the point where you MUST work outside your home? Are you hooked on the luxuries (material things) that your income brings? If you really want to be a stay-at-home mom then make the necessary choices to do so but don't claim it isn't possible due to male wage stagnation.

You present your case as if you are a victim of a bad economy caused by male wage stagnation. BULL! The USA has had 6 years of unprecedented economic growth until now. Wages have been steadily increasing during that time and inflation has been controlled. We have had the lowest unemployment rate in many years. Your house probably skyrocketed in value since 2003 and has only given a portion back.

Stop wallowing in excuses! Take back control of your life! Make the hard choices and take responsibility for the consequences of your previous choices.

Depressed too, men just won't admit it.
I think more women admit to depression and seek help for it but many men are too proud to admit they are depressed and act out in other ways (such as drinking too much, drugs, and even domestic violence) because so many men are taught that admitting weakness of any sort if a failing. I think feminism probably has made more women happy than unhappy, on balance, and is not at all to blame. Think of how many housewives were unfullfilled and depressed with their stultifying lives in the 50's and early 60's. Some women were happy being housewives, but many were very unhappy at the options available to them. I see my three married daughters balancing family and work and even though they have busy lives they appreciate having the options that the feminist movement has accomplished.

half measure
"The feminist promise that everything in their marriage will be 50-50 -- each partner will do half the outside work, half the housework, and half the child rearing -- has rarely panned out."

What about 50% / 50% for:
Occupational fatalities?
Military casualties?
Hours worked?
Spending of income?
Unisex sports?

Feminists do not want those things. Feminist do not REALLY want to share... Feminists only want men to do what they are told. Feminist want women to have choices, and men to have obligations.

reported depression?
The stats probably show a higher rate of depression for women because women like to complain and they also quickly seek help instead of trying to deal with their problems on their own.

Women also consume twice as many doctors vists as men (not counting pregnancy related visits). Are women half as health as men?

Feminism = a true story based on fiction.

it takes two incomes...
to eat out 3+ times a week

have two+ new cars all the time

the huge tv, multiple cell phones, cable tv, granit countertops...

fancy vacations...

weekly trips to the mall...

I have always comfortably lived on one income... and never been able to spend everything I make. At my standard of living, I could probably support 3 or 4 families

A theory about anxiety
I have a theory about depression......


Scroll down.....












Stop....
Get from this moment.......... to 15 seconds from now,

Then scroll down....






stop....

How much depression or anxiety did you have in that timeframe ?
You didn't have to worry about needless things, you had a simple goal and it took precedence over less important and irrational anxiety.

This can be done with any length of time, A minute , a day , a week.





The next time you feel anxiety ask your self,

" Self, Am I ok at this exact moment ?"

I think you'll find that the answer is usually , yes.

If your always ok "now", ......then the culprit is the fear itself.

In my darkest times this has worked for me.

It also works when there are serious issues to deal with.

You will be more likely to think clearly and not freak out. more likely to be tolerant with others and more likely to put things in a proper perspective.

If your answer is usually "no I'm not ok," then it could be a chemical balance thing.

Just a theory.....let me know what you think. TTYS


Are these attacks on women political

Since the two novelty candidates, a black man and a white woman, have been presented for election America has split into angry blacks, angry whites and very angry men.
Conversations by previously rational men have become tainted with a bitter misogeny. They are popping up on radio and now on t.v. and the tone is unappealing to us all.
I measure a man by asking the question,"Would this man allow his daughter a fair go?"
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