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Friday, March 13, 2009
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Using Embryos ... Without Limit?
by Charles Krauthammer
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


WASHINGTON -- Last week, the White House invited me to a signing ceremony overturning the Bush (43) executive order on stem cell research. I assume this was because I have long argued in these columns and during my five years on the President's Council on Bioethics that, contrary to the Bush policy, federal funding should be extended to research on embryonic stem cell lines derived from discarded embryos in fertility clinics.

I declined to attend. Once you show your face at these things you become a tacit endorser of whatever they spring. My caution was vindicated.

Bush had restricted federal funding for embryonic stem cell research to cells derived from embryos that had already been destroyed (as of his speech of Aug. 9, 2001). While I favor moving that moral line to additionally permit the use of spare fertility clinic embryos, Obama replaced it with no line at all. He pointedly left open the creation of cloned -- and noncloned sperm-and-egg-derived -- human embryos solely for the purpose of dismemberment and use for parts.

I am not religious. I do not believe that personhood is conferred upon conception. But I also do not believe that a human embryo is the moral equivalent of a hangnail and deserves no more respect than an appendix. Moreover, given the protean power of embryonic manipulation, the temptation it presents to science, and the well-recorded human propensity for evil even in the pursuit of good, lines must be drawn. I suggested the bright line prohibiting the deliberate creation of human embryos solely for the instrumental purpose of research -- a clear violation of the categorical imperative not to make a human life (even if only a potential human life) a means rather than an end.

On this, Obama has nothing to say. He leaves it entirely to the scientists. This is more than moral abdication. It is acquiescence to the mystique of "science" and its inherent moral benevolence. How anyone as sophisticated as Obama can believe this within living memory of Mengele and Tuskegee and the fake (and coercive) South Korean stem cell research is hard to fathom.

That part of the ceremony, watched from the safe distance of my office, made me uneasy. The other part -- the ostentatious issuance of a memorandum on "restoring scientific integrity to government decision-making" -- would have made me walk out.

Restoring? The implication, of course, is that while Obama is guided solely by science, Bush was driven by dogma, ideology and politics.

What an outrage. George Bush's nationally televised stem cell speech was the most morally serious address on medical ethics ever given by an American president. It was so scrupulous in presenting the best case for both his view and the contrary view(END ITAL) that until the last few minutes, the listener had no idea where Bush would come out.

Obama's address was morally unserious in the extreme. It was populated, as his didactic discourses always are, with a forest of straw men. Such as his admonition that we must resist the "false choice between sound science and moral values." Yet, exactly 2 minutes and 12 seconds later he went on to declare that he would never open the door to the "use of cloning for human reproduction."

Does he not think that a cloned human would be of extraordinary scientific interest? And yet he banned it.

Is he so obtuse not to see that he had just made a choice of ethics over science? Yet, unlike President Bush, who painstakingly explained the balance of ethical and scientific goods he was trying to achieve, Obama did not even pretend to make the case why some practices are morally permissible and others not.

This is not just intellectual laziness. It is the moral arrogance of a man who continuously dismisses his critics as ideological while he is guided exclusively by pragmatism (in economics, social policy, foreign policy) and science in medical ethics.

Science has everything to say about what is possible. Science has nothing to say about what is permissible. Obama's pretense that he will "restore science to its rightful place" and make science, not ideology, dispositive in moral debates is yet more rhetorical sleight of hand -- this time to abdicate decision-making and color his own ideological preferences as authentically "scientific."

Dr. James Thomson, the discoverer of embryonic stem cells, said "if human embryonic stem cell research does not make you at least a little bit uncomfortable, you have not thought about it enough." Obama clearly has not.

Charles Krauthammer's e-mail address is letters(at)charleskrauthammer.com. (c) 2009, The Washington Post Writers Group

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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Discernment
Once again, this discerning listener heard one contradiction after another erupt from Obama's mouth during that speech.

This must be why he constantly turns his head from side to side: "... and on this side, I am saying this. (turns head)... but on this side, I am saying that."

He is literally speaking out of both sides of his mouth at once.

What's another term for that? Oh yeah: "forked tongue." And we all know what creature on earth has a forked tongue.

And yet, despite having content flow from both sides of his mouth, he still said absolutely nothing at all. Curiouser and curiouser.


Bad Lawyering
As much as the messiah is not a scientist, he is clearly out of his league as both lawyer and philosopher. He is neither. He is a world-class BSer.

It only takes a reading of the Amateur in Chief's words to see how doltish he is, while it had to take a reading of President Bush's to see that he wasn't. People are confused by speech, as if the delivery of words is the most important part of them.

I spent my teenage years in the company of someone who reminds me of the messiah, and he was a calculating liar, but not so clever as he imagined. He was a mooch and could not be believed in anything; the best way to see through him was to ask him about anything of substance, to pin him down on specifics. He was a confuser of opinions and facts, as if one were the other.

The Idiot in Chief, like my childhood fiend, thinks his opinions are the same thing as facts, and that all he needs to do is to state them for them to be true. He doesn't know the difference.

The American Public needs to be reading from the same teleprompter as B.O. while he's speaking. Reading the words, it's clear that he is less than his own delivery.

One Objection
The only objection I truly have to your thoughtfilled, honest, considerate and amazing article is the use of 'sophisticated' to describe our president. I find him robotic, driven so much by arrogance and presumptions of his own perfections that he literally cannot morally or ethically or politically or pragmatically see straight.
He is a major example of why 'slippery slopes' soon turn into ethical disasters. HE WOULD allow cloning if it was pressed hard enough by some group that he deemed worthy of his approval. This is truly sickening.

Amazing!
This is simply an amazing, insightful, well articulated, thoughtful, honest and erudite post! All I can say is wow and right on!!

Not you too, Dr. Krauthammer
"Personhood"? Really? Is this the yardstick you're using to determine whether or not an embryo (or fetus or whatever) lives or dies? If so, spare me - spare us all - because you're no more ethical than the president.

Dr, Krauthammer says:
"I declined to attend."

Well done, sir.

Thus we see the difference between a man whose politics are informed by his morality and one whose morality is driven by his politics.

Not religious?
If not at conception, then when do you confer personhood? 3 days after conception, 5 weeks, or 2.355 months? At birth? Logically, if it's not a duck or tennis ball, it's a person. 100% of the time. That is proven science!
But the Creator (the One in our Constitution)has said He knit us together while we were in the womb!
I would be very fearful of dismembering what God has knit together. This is especially true of individuals and our nation...

the same question for Dr. Krauthammer
Once- as Dr. Bernard Nathanson said- the spark is struck, and the fertilized egg begins to develop, when does it become a person, and why. It's a fertilized egg, a zygote, an embryo, a fetus, a b-word if female, a N-word if black. I can stick a dehumanizing label on anyone. So calling it names doesn't mean this is not a person. I can find disabilities among adults as profound as in any embryo. Are you willing to experiment on Grandma? A thing begins at its beginning. This is elementary. You don't need a God to tell you that.

Thank you
Thank you, Mr. Krauthammer. For Obama not to acknowledge that science does sometimes conflict with morality, and that moral principles, not scientific possibility, must guide our policy, is frankly appalling. Just because one has the ability to do something, even something that may have potential benefits for some group, doesn't mean that one should.

And while I am pro-life and do believe the embroy possesses 'personhood,' I recognize that not everybody shares that belief, and am happy to have Mr. Krauthammer and others who have moral reservations on unbridled embryonic stem cell research as allies. Bashing them on the head with a Bible they don't accept in the first place isn't going to change one person's mind, but working with them as friends and allies just might.

Mr. Krauthammer has, as usual...
...some outstanding points. I love the way he thinks. I pretty much hang on his every word; he is so often right. Whilst I disagree with his personhood concept, I completely agree that giving Science carte blanche on what they can (and will) do with these little beings is foolhardy on Obama's part. I think it's just another bone to throw to the pro-choice groups to keep them smiling while he gets ready for the FOCA to be slipped into the mix. Thus, his appointment of Sebelius for HHS sec'y. She'll be the pit bull of women's health that'll bring the FOCA to pass without compromising his moderate public 'stance' on abortion.

Science is not God. For us to allow them even a minute portion of His power is incredibly foolish; he couldn't have had much aforethought prior to his decision. But this seems to be a common thread woven into the Obama blankie of govt control. I read a phrase describing this administration's procedural form yesterday and loved it: "Fire, ready, AIM!!"

SELF INFLICTED WOUNDS
Ahhh Obama! What folly have we wrought in Rome?

The dilemma
If human embryonic stem cell research discovers a means to cure any particular disease, it will thereby increase the demand for human embryos from which to harvest the stem cells. If this demand exceeds the supply of unused embryos from fertilization clinics, what do we do? I imagine that the scientific community would then create embryos for the sole purpose of the harvest—what would be next?

Personhood—not attained until the age of 12. That way we could harvest so many other fully developed human organs for the benefit of saving an existing person. What's the difference; just keep the developing embryo for 4600 days instead of just a few days, before the harvest. This will soon be possible as science is also working to develop an artificial womb. Science at it's best!

Has Obama has stated before--It's above his pay grade.

What's worse? Adding a 'e' to potato, or saying his compaign "had been to 57 states".


A former liberal.
When I graduated college, I didn't consider myself "conservative" nor was I a registered Republican. When it came to the pro-choice/pro-life argument, as a woman I staunchly stuck to being pro-choice. However, my opinion and the opinion of other pro-choicers often times is only formed from the perspective of a woman and that is it. The idea of "my body, my choice" is what prevails with the pro-choice lobby.

I began to discover how many of my friends had abortions. Some have been affected dramatically and made life changes while others, well they are repeat offenders having multiple abortions and think nothing more of it than a medical procedure.

It was this latter attitude that caused me to reflect and reform my own opinion and do a bit of research. How selfish the pro-choice, pro-abortion and now pro-embryonic stem-cell lobby is. I remember President Bush's speech. The problem with what Obama has done is that he shows little regard for the most precious commodity we have on earth - the creation of life. I'm not a deeply religious person, but I do believe that respect should be given where it is due.

The President is as arrogant as he is ignorant, which is a common trait in most left-wing liberals I know.

This is yet another of many mistakes our rookie President has made. There was no careful thought put into this decision, as there is no careful thought put into any of his decisions abotu the long term consequences to our nation.

My question now becomes, where will the President draw a line of morality? Does he even have one? I think not. As a nation we should be ashamed of our leader.

With freedom, there must also come responsibility or there will be chaos. Our President has shown in these first days of his presidency that he is irresponsible.

Lack of Empathy
Obama is the kind of person that could be hooked up to a lie detector, asked pointed questions about the contradictory statements he's made, sometimes within the same breath, and the needle on the machine wouldn't bugde a millimeter.
He's not a pathological liar; Those people pay a price for their disorder in the form of guilt and shame. Obama suffers from none of that.
Obama is a narcissist of the first order. Even a cursory inquiery into the symptoms exihbited by such a person would easily lead one to conclude that he is so afflicted.
Foresite becomes quite limited in a person when they lack empathy. Everytime there is a massacre committed in the world, whether it be like in Alabama and Germany or the slayings in Bosnia, I promise you, empathy was abscent.
Obama's lack of empathy allows him to dissociate all the logical connections that would compell others to, at the very least, catch themselves before barreling headlong down a path that leaeves normal people wondering, "What's this guy talking about?"
Narcissism is the central theme in everything about Obama, so it shouldn't come as any surprise that he could claim to be "restoring scientific integrity to government decision-making", then go on to speak of his direly needed Energy Policy and Global-Warming.
And he makes it looks so easy.
That's because for him, it IS easy...he's believes himself...for you and I it would be work to construct such a lie.
The fact that he's assited daily in the subterfuge by the MSM is a conspiracy that makes Watergate look like some schoolyard 'Who stole my baloney sandwich' caper.
Just be ready when the grand charade falls to pieces, because narcissists are never wrong about the things they are passionate about...then they lash out to protect themselves.
That's when it could get ugly.

Our President and science
"Science" changes its mind more often than the weather, especially when human beings are involved.

As a Christian, I Cannot Approve of....
embryonic stem cell research. I believe that it is morally wrong.

As an engineer, I have watched (via the internet and news sources) the results that other countries are experiencing with embryonic stem cell research. I see very little in the forms of "advances in science" or "actual" cures for illnesses.

On the other hand, adult stem cell research has produced at least 25 advancements that can be "measured" and at least 7 "initial cures" for illnesses.

President Obama is conforming to the Liberal agenda in allowing embryonic stem cell research. But this is not unexpected. To most Democrats, agenda "trumps" common sense or what is morally correct.

ESC are a dead end,
unstable and dangerous. NO discoveries have been reached using them, prompting researchers to go in other directions. If they had value, the free market would be all over them, but they are not.

Why not err on the side of life? Are we becoming as craven and dismissive of babies as our Chocolate Jesus?

Hey, let's eat all the seed corn. Don't worry about next year's crop.

Embryonic Imbecility
Great article. I presume you know this but, apparantly the press doesn't (Ha) of course they do. President Bush did NOT ban embryionic stem cell research. He banned the use of Federal funds,out taxes, to pay for it. This has been going on without pause. Even If I thought it might be acceptable,(I don't) at a time when the U.S. economy is in such horrible shape, we should not be paying for this, funding Planned Parenthood,(a multibillion dollar business claining to be a nont-for profit org.) abortions anywhere and many other things.

Besides, it is proven scientifically that embryonic stem cells have consistantly caused tumors in lab research on animals. When desperate parents took their son to China for embryonic cell therapy, he ended upgrowing a huge tumore from this. Not once has their been any indication that embryonic cells will help anyone. Yet, it has been proven that adult stem cells harvested do work without causing tumors.

The Nurembert Code of Ethics on Human Research & Experimentation forbids experimentation on humans when the procedure has proven bad results in animals. If this scientist and liberalss want to fund embryonic stem cells research,why not get the wealthy liberals who bought the election for Obama to fund it from their wealth? They are the ones who believe in this. I know it is only an excuse to open doors we shouldn't as well as justify abortion.

Religious?
If you mean by religious that you do not believe in God then I can understand your stand on embryonic stem cell research. For if one does not believe that God is the creator and we are all accountable to Him, life and death have little meaning in a relativistic world. But if you believe in God and that He is the creator of all things including life, then you must respect human life and only take it in defense of what is right in the eyes of God. The Bible is clear in showing that God's wrath toward those who take the lives of innocent children will be swift. God alone should decide who lives and dies, since He is the author of life. True scientists know that human life begins at conception because the DNA is perfectly complete at conception. I urge you to rethink your position on this vital issue. Adult stem cell research has already shown it to be successful and promising. Why spend billions on unproven and expensive research by killing innocent, defenseless children when it could be spent on life-sparing research that has shown great success? You are a brilliant commentator and I enjoy your time on Fox news network.

The Door is open
Mr Krauthammer says he favors "the use of spare fertility clinic embryos" But why choose to draw this line here instead of further along?

Spare fertility clinic embryos= Spare human beings. The word "Spare" is frightening with implications, and is a monstrous judgment to impose on another. The idea of "personhood" is a legal concept and is irrelevant.


Descent into darkness
Human life should not begin nor end as a result of scientific experimentation. That basic moral principle, articulated by President Bush in his thoughtful, nuanced decision to ban federal funding of embryonic stem cell research, should guide President Obama's "scientific" policy decisions, but sadly that is not the case.

60 years ago, C.S. Lewis predicted the arrival of the technological revolution. He warned of what would happen if we ever started viewing humans, not as individuals made in God's image, but merely as commodities. Clearly, we have now reached that point.

Lewis wrote in his essay, The Abolition of Man: "If man chooses to treat himself as raw material, raw material he will be: not raw material to be manipulated, as he fondly imagined, by himself, but [by] his dehumanized conditioners." Once we conquer nature, nature conquers us.

We will live to regret this unconscionable, unethical descent into Obama's brave new world. God help us.

Great article
Krauthammer is a wonderful columnists. Whether I agree with him fully or not, his arguments are logical and well thought out. I can't say the same for President Obama. Why do people keep calling him intelligent? He's a brilliant politician, yes..but he shows no ability to think beyond step one of any problem or issue.

GrayGhost
I wonder how many "spare embryos" the Sail Eared Simpleton PERSONALLY left in his wake?

Anybody remember "2525"

Anybody remember the song "in the year 2525"

One of the lines is "in the year 6565, you'll pich your sons and daughters too from the bottom of a long black tube"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izQB2-Kmiic

How close are we getting in 2009?

My $0.02
As a physician, psychiatrist, and bioethicist, I found this to be one of the finest columns I have ever had the pleasure of reading. I applaud my psychiatric colleague, Charles Krauthammer, M.D., for his insight and foresight. Being religious myself, I may not agree with Doctor Krauthammer about abortion and tax money going to ESC research, but I admire his knowledge and ethical sense.

I would make one further observation about why Obama invited Doctor Krauthammer to the ceremony: Doctor Krauthammer is far to gracious a man to have said this (and may indeed believe that what I am saying is untrue), but, for those of you who don't know, the fact is that Doctor Krauthammer is a spinal cord injury survivor after a motor vehicle accident years ago. He is a quadriplegic and lives in a wheelchair. Now, I believe that Obama and his tovarishi are some of the most cynical and exploitative people on this earth. They were probably salivating over a photo op of the wheelchair-bound conservative physician on the stage as Obama signs the executive order and, figuratively, says to Doctor Krauthammer, "Arise, take up your wheelchair, and walk!"

I know, I am probably being overly cynical here myself. But I would not put this past the likes of Obama, Emmanuel, and Carville.

Also a Former Liberal
This is a very good article. I think Dr. Krauthammer explored aspects of this issue that many of us have not stopped to think about. I also very much like the post by Sam from Florida (7:55 am post)titled "Former Liberal." As a woman who has re-examined and now struggles with the pro-choice/pro woman position, I found Sam’s post to be beautifully written. I can really relate to everything said in that particular post.

As usual...
Mr. Krauthammer doesn't disappoint and has already looked at the issue from all sides and with a facile mind.
I also have given a lot of thought to this issue.
Having had an abortion early in life and also needed IVF later in life in order to have a child.
This is the realm of God and one would be wise to enter it with restraint and respect.
Of course, it doesn't surprise me that our fearlessly grandiose, feckless leader would smile as he once again enters his narcissistically necessary spotlight and claim credit for correcting a disconnect between science and policy... he's gotten away with the rest of his rewrite without being held accountable.
Too bad he can't be as juiced by the economy.
Someone should tell him he would get just as much historical relevance for that as putting his mark on every social issue in the country.

Two-faced, arrogant emperor.
He wants to allow stem cell research but then wants to inject government into medical care to stop what the government thinks is unjustifiable medical treatment.

Since he thinks that a 9 month partial birth abortion is ok, I would think that he'd allow stem cells to be harvested from these babies that would have otherwise been live births.

We have elected a mindless idiot!

Shrinque
Nice comments. I agree it was a fine column. I think Krauthammer would be forced to agree that they wanted to use the photo op as you described. He would not wish it to be so and, like all of us, would be sickened if that were indeed their intentions but, having seen quite enough already of this man, it is impossible to discard the likelihood of it.

tacit endorsements
The article says, "Once you show your face at these things you become a tacit endorser of whatever they spring." Yes indeed. Rather a bit like making an appearance, as one of a selected few, at a private residence for dinner with The Annointed One, the high Comrade Obama.

Mr. Krauthammer: Personhood?
A unique new combination of human DNA present in a single new cell - produced from the union of a mother’s DNA carrying egg and a father’s DNA carrying sperm - contains all the information necessary to transform that first cell - over a period of about 266 days - into trillions of cells of various types that are organized into a new human brain and all the organs and other parts of a new human body. This usually approximately 7 lb. new mass of amazingly intricate cellular complexity - upon arrival - is simply called a newborn baby.

From the beginning of the building process and extending throughout a lifetime, both brain and body are continually subjected to innumerable conditions and experiences that modify and refine what is built and maintained by the information stored in one’s DNA - the original DNA in the first cell that was repeatedly copied and used to build and maintain every subsequent cell.

A human brain is able to produce and understand human language using specific areas of cerebral cortex usually located in its left hemisphere. Strokes or other damage in particular cortical areas cause impairment or loss of the ability to produce and understand spoken or written language or both. Precisely which linguistic abilities are impaired or lost and to what degree depends upon the exact location and extent of the brain damage.


Mr. Krauthammer: Personhood? (Cont.)
Human brains have invented the term “person” and “personal pronouns” such as “I” and “me” which are supposed to be used as substitutes for the noun “person”. But is a “person” a real entity or merely a linguistic expression invented by a human brain? Human brains exist within human bodies. But if a “person” is merely a linguistic expression for a nonexistent entity, what does that make “personhood”?

Most all of us value human life – our own as well as that of other humans. Some of us believe that when a human egg and sperm are united and a new human cell is formed – unlike the identical process in other species - that something very significant has taken place and that the event is somehow related to our conception of a supreme being or almighty power or God, and that disposing of such a cell is equivalent to murder.

Others of us believe that the union of a human sperm and egg is a biological event, and if the process continues inside a human uterus, it can obviously lead to the growth and development of a new human brain and body.

For some of us this biological process is simply that - a biological process - that should be thoroughly understood and used wisely. It is not related to our conception of a Supreme Being or Almighty Power or God, however deeply held our conception may be.


Personhood
Charles......when did you become you?

Not in favor
I cannot understand many things scientifically, but I believe there is a God who gives and takes life when He sees a need for it. To those who do not believe, all I can say is, "I believe in God by faith, by what do you doubt Him?
I believe Obama is just seeing how much he can rub it in on Conservatives. I believe this good doctor used some common sense in not going to this meeting. I would not want to be associated with this type of thing myself. God makes embryos and man has no business trying to change things such as cloning. However, I understand that some good has come from stem cell research, but let the private sector do it. The Government has messed up everything it has taken over as a project.

Poem Opposes BO
OPERATION CREATION
The Eve of Man’s Manipulation

Dying for designer genes
Trying every new pair
Acid washed, custom made
Branded DNA wear

We the people have a greed
A better breed’s the answer
Our self-enhancing power only
Spreading like a cancer

Scientists increase their scope
Scalpels, needles, knives
Off they go down the slope
Crashing into lives

They break into the master plan
And make a master copy
They try to freeze a mortal man
And throw away the floppy

Oh highest tech intellect
Think about the scar
Think before dissecting us
Controlling who we are

You scrub away and scour
And carefully inspect us
With microscopic power
You claim you can perfect us

So slipping down the slope we go
To the deep abyss below
Design a mind, create a face
A polished, finished human race...

Copyright Mary Beth Lavin/Lavinia Publishing 2009
http://www.marybethlavin.com

Personhood
A human embryo is a human being at its earliest stage of life. Potential human life is an egg and sperm in close proximity. The otherwise exceedingly rational Dr. Krauthammer is apparently unable to come to terms with these simple points. At least he gets the "primum non nocere" part right.

If,
If its anti-science to oppose killing embryonic human beings for research purposes then its anti-science to oppose killing adult human beings for research purposes too.

Once you permit sacrificing the lives of some innocent human beings for the good of others you leave no barrier in place to say that ANY human being should not be sacrificed if others might benefit from his/her death.

If innocent, embryonic humans can be sacrificed for research WHY NOT use convicted murderers for research so that they could be a benefit to society?

If innocent, embryonic humans can be sacrificed for the good of others WHY NOT kill prisoners, the mentally ill, and the severely handicapped so that their useful organs can be transplanted into those who need them?

If your elderly relatives are burning through all their money on hospital bills while their nice house sits empty and suffers from lack of maintenance WHY NOT kill them (mercifully, of course), so that you can use the money productively starting a business and raise your kids in a nice house?

Either a human being has inherent human rights based on nothing but the DNA that shows him/her to be part of the species Homo sapiens sapiens or there is no reason that any human being can't be murdered or enslaved by another other human being who chooses to do so.

Shrinque
My initial reaction and my thoughts exactly! Dr. Krauthammer is too classy to say it, but I'm glad you did! Thanks for letting people know Obama's real agenda...

Judith
"We have elected a mindless idiot!"

No. That would suggest that he does not know what he is doing. He knows entirely well what he is doing.

It's the other 57% that I have questions about.

Great article Dr. Krauthammer.
Any govermnemt that supports and promotes the willful killing of babies with few restrictions and moral authority is capable of anything. This has everything to do with raw power by the chosen one.Tax, spend, vote buying payback is what this all about. Why do we (US Taxpayer)have to pay for all research that will only benefit the special few? POWER! I am sick of this. Time to join the April 1 tea party and remind the idiots in Washington DC that they are working for us and not themselves at our expence.

refatsew..
i know i'm going to regret this but,
was that whole rambling discourse just to dispute his use of the word "personhood"?
bahahaha
really? did you need to impress us all with your verbage or is there another point?
because if all you took away from the article is the word personhood i am amazed at your dissociative ability.
Question to you who think you don't know when life begins...
Ever crack a chicken egg and see the beginning formation of a chicken? does it give you pause, even when you eat chicken? do you have a problem cooking the egg?
the whole process of life requires a degree of dissociation...as does any manipulation of the processes of life but, to discount the connection to our Maker is enough of a dissociation to negate your humanness.

You will take up serpents.
The commenter who said Obama speaks out of both sides of his mouth because he has a forked tongue like the serpent said it all..
Whether it is about embryos, stock markets, or our enemies Obama speaks like a serpent..The good news is, Jesus said, "Be as wise as serpents". ..Never have Jesus words been more important than these five words today.

Sleeper...
A human embryo is a human being at its earliest stage of life. Potential human life is an egg and sperm in close proximity.

LOVE that! Hope you don't mind if I use your simple and sublime expression of my thoughts.
Thank you.

I enjoy CK
But this is one of his rare mis-steps. Charles talks about 'moving that moral line', but this is a red herring as the line has already been breeched; that gov't has taken the notion of funding everything already. Where is the market mechanism in all this? Indeed, when the gov't throws its hat in the ring they simply drive out competition and innovation that would have taken place elsewhere. Sorry, Charlie, once you go down that road you can't go back and your critics can rightly point to the hypocrisy.


BARACK HUSSEIN ALLENDE

Barack Hussein Obama rode on the back of the antiwar movement into presidential history. No toppling of Saddam Hussein, no President B. Hussein Obama. The man with the middle name “Hussein” opposed regime change in Iraq and the forceful ousting by U.S. forces of the murdering dictator believing that he could be stopped, tamed and contained-a completely wrongheaded notion as the man's terrorist activities were uncontainable and dangerously growing. But I wonder, is it mere happenstance that Obama shares the same name as the ill starred dictator, the name "Hussein?" Is his own middle name a warning to Obama about the fate he could suffer if he goes too far in his transformational project to Europeanize and collectivize capitalist America?

When I think about both men I notice that they share one very troubling trait between them: for like Saddam Hussein B. Hussein Obama is a madman, a man for whom no catastrophe is too big or disaster too great to bring him to reason and stop him.

Click my name and read the rest of The Man With Hussein for his Middle Name, or Barack Hussein Allende



So Sperm & Eggs are Dead?
Rebekah:
"A human embryo is a human being at its earliest stage of life. Potential human life is an egg and sperm in close proximity."

Do you consider the human sperm and the egg to be dead in the same way that a rock is dead or inert? Do not the sperm and the egg have more life than that? And what variety of life is that if not human?

And considering that the majority (perhaps 75%-80%) of all newly naturally-concieved human embryos fail to implant and are discarded in the trash or septic system, do we really consistently treat them as human life?

A fertilized egg
by any other name, is still a baby. People need to start picking on someone their own size.

A URL Please?
Krauthammer:
"George Bush's nationally televised stem cell speech was the most morally serious address on medical ethics ever given by an American president...unlike President Bush, who painstakingly explained the balance of ethical and scientific goods he was trying to achieve..."

This is not the usual description for anything to come out of the mouth of President Bush. Does anybody have a URL for the text of this address?

Charles
another great column. I do not agree with this sci., but you provided a strong agument for it As always you point out the naive nature of the POTUS. Thanks for making me think, and keep up the good work.
Kirk

Flaming etc.
Regardless of whether a fertilized egg implants in the uterus or not, it IS God's creation. So you understand God to the extent that you know with certainty that miscarriages are NOT part of God's plan? Aborted babies also end up in the garbage. Their souls too are long gone and being lovingly held in Jesus' and his mother's embrace. Man's highest intelligence is ignorance to God.

Oh Please...
pdm:

"Charles talks about 'moving that moral line', but this is a red herring as the line has already been breeched; that gov't has taken the notion of funding everything already. Where is the market mechanism in all this?"

So now free-market economics is not only the only possible way to run an economy, but it's also the only valid *MORALITY*????


"Indeed, when the gov't throws its hat in the ring they simply drive out competition and innovation that would have taken place elsewhere.."

If you really believe this, then get off the Internet. The government developed it.


For Moral Consistency
truetolife:
"A fertilized egg by any other name, is still a baby. People need to start picking on someone their own size."

truetolife, when you start lobbying for confining all sexually active women and carefully examining all of their menstrual flow for these amazing microscopic unicellular human beings of yours (maybe you can get Rick Santorum to do it, he's got alot of time on his hands these days) so they can be perhaps saved, or cryogenically preserved, or at least given a decent christian burial, then I'll take you seriously.

Shrinque
I agree, very well said. Dr. K is always been one of my favorites. I have heard people on the left run him down, call him a drunkerd, ect. They only like someone when it's a victim they can help(exploit).
Kirk

dear flaming liberal multiculturist
So Sperm & Eggs are Dead?
Rebekah:
"A human embryo is a human being at its earliest stage of life. Potential human life is an egg and sperm in close proximity."

Do you consider the human sperm and the egg to be dead in the same way that a rock is dead or inert? Do not the sperm and the egg have more life than that? And what variety of life is that if not human?

And considering that the majority (perhaps 75%-80%) of all newly naturally-concieved human embryos fail to implant and are discarded in the trash or septic system, do we really consistently treat them as human life?


ummm...those weren't my words but quoting of another poster but, i will try to answer as i found them to be correct.
embryonic life is life at its beginning.
they said human life and i assume they mean the combination of sperm and egg in order to create human life and not that they are inert before creation if that follows your rock analogy. individually they have potential to create.
if they fail to implant that is still within the realm of God isn't it and without manipulation?
not really sure what your reference to trash and septic system means... but your question "do we consistently treat treat them as human life?" i can definitely answer no and continue to remark...we rarely treat each other with such respect.

FLM
Very early miscarriage is NOT the same thing as deliberately creating, then ending, a human life. Nature's processes are what they are; it isn't always possible to be informed about the particulars.

The egg and sperm are alive only for a short time. They are only the potential, not the actual life of man in the physical sense. They cannot live for long on their own unless and until they unite to form a new, independent individual which itself must be nurtured by his parent.

We treat eagles' eggs with more respect than we do unborn humans.

flamming what ever
The gov. did not develop the internet, a private comp did for the milatry. Another know nothung lib.

Flaming Liberal Multi


Ask and ye shall receive:

http://www.speakout.com/activism/apstories/10048-1.html

The text was well thought out, and likely delevered without teleprompters.

Stop Slamming Chuck
Everyone that is getting down on Charles for his stance on embryonic stem cell research needs to remember where this man is coming from. If he is not a religious man, that explains much. But he is a man that is as conservative as they come, on most of the issues that we all have in common. On this issue I disagree with him, but if I were in his shoes I may see things his way.

I admire him very much for the strength he shows everyday, from the wheelchair he sits in every day. If there is any credence to this research, he is one that could benefit the most. And so, I understand his view, I respect his view and I disagree with his view. But I want him in my tent any day of the week. I have someone close to me that is a type 1 diabetic, and he could benefit here too. His parents see things as Charles sees them. The toured with McCain here in Florida and are strong conservatives. We need to see that our tent is big and many views can be covered.

Charles doesn't support abortion on demand any more than the ones chastising him here, but he does see this dilemma of unused embryos differently than most of us here. He didn't care for Sarah either, but I still love him and will stand by his side.

Read his bio and understand his point of view; you don’t have to agree with it, but you can understand it.

Well said!
"Science has everything to say about what is possible. Science has nothing to say about what is permissible. Obama's pretense that he will "restore science to its rightful place" and make science, not ideology, dispositive in moral debates is yet more rhetorical sleight of hand -- this time to abdicate decision-making and color his own ideological preferences as authentically "scientific." "



Well said Dr. Krauthammer. I find two things disturbing about Obama, okay more than two, but we will stick with two for now. His hubris, and his childish need to 'get even' with Bush constantly. His leadership is more along the lines of a gang leader and not a true leader. It is shameful.

I Can't Begin to Understand God
ttl:
" So you understand God to the extent that you know with certainty that miscarriages are NOT part of God's plan?"

I don't even know with certainty that we do not offend God when we destroy the bacteria giving somebody a fatal disease via an antibiotic. Maybe God is creating all those resistant strains?

When I observe that God designed and created us such that the vast majority of the fertilized eggs we create are discarded, the likeliest conclusion that pops up in the brain that God gave me is that such newly-fertilized embryo's are not the same as human beings.

We talked of this before. I will say that the longer that newly-fertilized embryo remains in the womb, the more nervous I get that to harm it would be murder.

A few replies
refatsew: "For some of us this biological process is simply that - a biological process - that should be thoroughly understood and used wisely. It is not related to our conception of a Supreme Being or Almighty Power or God, however deeply held our conception may be."

Says who?

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist: "Do you consider the human sperm and the egg to be dead in the same way that a rock is dead or inert? Do not the sperm and the egg have more life than that? And what variety of life is that if not human?"

If you're going to pull of a reductio ad absurdum argument, it would help if you used the words your prey actually said rather than trying to stuff more-convenient words down its throat.

Flaming
states:
When I observe that God designed and created us such that the vast majority of the fertilized eggs we create are discarded, the likeliest conclusion that pops up in the brain that God gave me is that such newly-fertilized embryo's are not the same as human beings.

But you admit that this is something that pops up in YOUR brain. That same scenario brings up something altogether different in my brain. I wonder how many souls God creates that people who use abortifacients will meet when they die. Babies that were meant to be but couldn't implant because of man's interference with nature as God intended. These are all souls--the spark of life already happened. Or perhaps they are souls that are created to help us find our own particular path to God (i.e. miscarriages)and are our cross to carry. Or perhaps they are souls that were created simply to be with God and pray for our weary world. Who knows? Certainly not you. Certainly not me.

Au Contraire
Kirk:
"The gov. did not develop the internet, a private comp did for the milatry. Another know nothung lib."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Kahn:

"In 1972 he moved to ARPA (now known as DARPA), and in October of that year, he demonstrated the ARPANET by connecting 40 different computers at the International Computer Communication Conference, publicizing the network to the general public for the first time."

Kahn was an employee of DARPA at this time.

Russian Ape Army
The little known historical equivalent to this would be the russians. They once tried cross breading man with monkey to make super soldiers. And Obama will continue that proud human meddling heritage, under the American flag.

ESC vs ASC
I have it from a source I trust that stem cell researchers he knows tell him that every attempt to work with embryonic stem cells results in a uselees blob of "ick" while adult stem cells develope into very usefull forms, while never requiring a potential life being destroyed. Seems to me, logic is enough to remove the issue. My Christian morals are superfluous. Obviously, it`s all about maintaining abortion rights. As expressed earlier, the right to do something does not make it right to do it.

I am truly disappointed Mr. Kauthammer
While I acknowledge your right to your opinion about life and when it begins, I strongly disagree with your conclusion.
One undeniable fact is that embryos become human beings and that life to me begins at conception.
When light from a star takes 1000 light years to arrive, does that mean it isn't actually light, no, it means that the light hasn't arrived yet.

What also doesn't make sense to me is that while you are against human cloning ( which I concur), if you don't think life begins at conception why would that matter. After all, personhood doesn't begin at conception.

Anyway, Mr. Kauthammer, I totally respect your political views and your intelligence, but I strongly disagree with some of your conclusions with your article.

That's a Differerent Scenario, ttl

ttl:
"But you admit that this is something that pops up in YOUR brain. That same scenario brings up something altogether different in my brain.
I wonder how many souls God creates that people who use abortifacients will meet when they die."

No Truetolife, you are considering a different 'scenario' and it's implications. You are considering all the embryo's whose gestation is interrupted by the hand of man. I am speaking of all the the embryo's (and it's a far greater number, perhaps 100x more) that naturally fail to implant permanently. If you think you are examining the same scenario that I am, I suggest to you that you are in fact hiding from that scenario because you are uncomfortable with it's logical implications.

#62 BTC
Says me. You can adopt whatever philosophical or religious beliefs that seem persuasive to you and other individuals can do the same. It's called freedom of religion.

What Obama wants ...
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies … If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency … The banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of their property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.”

Thomas Jefferson
1743-1826

want to learn more about how our governemnt is using BORROWED money to ENSLAVE us?

Go Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ&feature=related




#42 rebekah
I think you should consider just skipping my posts if you consider them essentially rambling discourses. The alternative would be to reread them carefully and try to understand the meaning and the implications of what was written.

Mengele and discarded embryos
It's interesting that Dr. K. would mention Dr. Mengele who experimented on discarded human beings (Jews) in almost the same breath that he says he has no problem with research on discarded humans (embryos).

Where's the moral difference? Is it only that Mengele's victims could protest their involuntary participation in his experiments and the embryos cannot? Seems to me like a distinction without difference.

Otherwise a fine article as usual.

#69 refatsew
Not if your "religious beliefs" involve murder. Your type has no choice but to twist simple questions of life into "personhood" and "keep your laws off my body." It's pathetic that you would presume to know exactly what stage of life an embryo represents in order to impose your ideological values on it.

America's lack of inner structure
Part of the problem with America is the lack of inner structure based on a God or a being that is greater than themselves. People seem to think that it is ok to be vile to another human being, indulge themselves on cigarettes or booze, take drugs, beat and or kill children and animals. They cheat in their businesses and defile their souls. I especially include the politicians in Washington D.C. in this description.

The sad part is that the longer this goes on, the larger it will become and the less good men will be heard. While I feel grateful to live in a time when illnesses that use to kill can be cured, I mourn the loss of family values. Our clan is pretty tight and our friends are good people but that doesn't mean that we won't feel the heat from the fire as more and more pave their way to he!!.

Earlene. See my reply to refatsew #69.
It applies to you as well.

in vitro
my friend's daughter is about to have 4 embryos implanted today, hoping that even one will take. Isn't it murder to sacrifice up to 4 fertilized eggs (embryos) so she can have a baby 'of her own'? Of course it is. Where are you fundys on that? And how about you just put a note on your drivers' licenses that says you don't want any treatment that may be derived from embryonic stem cell research.

Robert:
I don't. I'd be perfectly happy to be the recipient of any of the other promising ongoing research projects of the same variety that aren't killing embryos.

And yes, I think your friend's daughter is embarking on something that has some prickly moral questions (to say the least) attached to it.

Oh...
...and I'm no "fundy," you pinko jag. I just know the difference between right and wrong.

refatsew
oh but i did...i even squinted my eyes and moved my lips while reading.
nothing helped so i guess i should assume, as you have, that i lack the intellectual ability to comprehend your level of writing.
::sigh:: i guess i'll just have to live with that.

Flaming
Ah but you are mistaken. I gave you 3 different situations to ponder and you only reacted to one. I'm not attacking your thinking--I'm just prodding you a little to think outside the box.

Robert
your friend's daughter is playing God. The minute we divorced procreation from sex (via the "pill")we started on the slippery slope we are on through abortion and on into homosexual marriage. We reap what we sow. No denying that.

To Rebekah, BTC, AliveInHim (1)
Rebekah:
"..i assume they mean the combination of sperm and egg in order to create human life and not that they are inert.."

You (actually sleeper) call the sperm and egg 'potential' human life, and I disagree. Both the sperm and egg have life that must be in some way human life. I can't see what other kind of life it could be.

Rebekah:
"not really sure what your reference to trash and septic system means... but your question "do we consistently treat treat them as human life?" i can definitely answer no"

To spell it out, it seems hypocritical to me that we care nothing for all the naturally fertilized embryos that do not implant (because it would be very inconvenient to do otherwise) yet we (well, not me) get all up in arms if a scientist want's to do stem cell research on one, or a woman wants to voluntarily remove one from her own womb.


To Rebekah, BTC, AliveInHim (2)
Rebekah:
"if they fail to implant that is still within the realm of God isn't it and without manipulation?"

AliveInHim:
"Very early miscarriage is NOT the same thing as deliberately creating, then ending, a human life."

I agree they are not the same actions, but the thing that naturally fails to implant, and the thing that a technician produces in the fertility clinic, are the IDENTICALLY SAME thing. (Down to, but not including, the genes in the DNA, anyway.) The way that God has designed our natural body processes to treat this thing is not irrelevant to our decision-making process regarding how we should treat this thing.

I do not believe that we are meant by God to try to save every embryo that is not implanted in a human womb, but I do believe that we are meant to defend the lives of human beings, even at risk of loss of our own. I therefore can not see newly-fertilized embryos as identical to human beings.

And I cannot believe that by selecting one such embryo for stem cell research, or even by choosing to remove one such embryo from the womb, that we somehow, in that act, impart human-beingedness to it.

I have a very personal stake in this
Our oldest daughter is 30 years old and has had a chronic illness for 24 of those years. Her docs in Houston are beginning to murmur about her having a stem cell transplant (she has Raynaud's Syndrome and Scleroderma). She has lost one finger to the diseases and all of her other fingers, toes and ankles are totally compromised due to the progression of the illness. They feel that, due to her lack of response to months in a hyperbaric chamber and prostaglandin IV's and every antibiotic known to man (to name a few of the treatments) that her system needs a "jumpstart." There is absolutely NO WAY that she or her husband (they have 3 little ones) would ever consider embryonic stem cells. Taking a life to save one is NEVER an option. All research points to embryonic stem cell transplants as causing tumors for those it was used on. Adult stem cells can do the job (with no consequences) and there is no creating life in order to destroy it involved. When will we get it?? Going against nature only brings heartache. From a religious point of view--all of life makes sense. From a secularist point of view--none of life makes sense and we have to keep defending our sins one by one as they continue to build.

truetolife
yes, that horrible right to have sex without having children. What century do you live in? You think that women should be barefoot, pregnant and never work outside the house? Should we annul marriages where they only have sex and no kids? And it led to gay marriage? (slapping side of my head in utter disbelief that anyone thinks like that in 2009).

I feel sorry for your daughter, though I hope she stays firm and ignores any cure that exists because of ESC. One egg and one sperm do not make a human being.

FLC...BTW TMI
To spell it out, it seems hypocritical to me that we care nothing for all the naturally fertilized embryos that do not implant (because it would be very inconvenient to do otherwise) yet we (well, not me) get all up in arms if a scientist want's to do stem cell research on one, or a woman wants to voluntarily remove one from her own womb.

Please do not include me in your empirical.
I am not up in arms nor do i wish to impede others with wombs decisions on what to do with their wombs.

It is my belief that there is the potential for life in both the sperm and the egg and in the combination you get human life that can be interupted at any point from that point but, i don't wish to be responsible for deciding when it's to end at any point and that also includes the death penalty.
I even admitted in my first text that I have been complicit in all of it.
Having had an abortion. IVF treatment and Cryo.
I have lived to regret my actions except for IVF which was the only way I was able to conceive.
I don't begrudge science or scientific advancements that we benefit from so that is a useless arguement against all conservatives as well.
I do find the arrogance of some intellectuals to be such that it makes me want to pick my nose or scratch my crotch drop toward the ground and drag my knuckles in protest of their posturing.

Destroying the ECONOMY for DUMMIES ...
Learn how Obama IS, Bush DID, and HOW even YOU can destroy the US ECONOMY ...

AND ...

Why comparing Obama to FDR is NO LAUGHING MATTER ...

That is unless you don't care where your next meal is coming from ...

go here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A&feature=related

Earlene

Many posters are aware of the alternatives to using embroyos, as in adult stem cells and in saving/freezing the umbilical cord when a child is born.

The advantage of the umbilical cord is in auto immune issues. Perhaps this is where more study should be done.

Reply to TTL (1)
ttl:
"I'm not attacking your thinking--I'm just prodding you a little to think outside the box."

I offer one set of circumstances, and my conclusions from it. You don't consider those conclusions (that I've noticed, anyway), you instead offer me other sets of circumstances to consider. Okay, I will. Just be aware that you haven't done the same as yet.

ttl:
"I wonder how many souls God creates that people who use abortifacients will meet when they die. Babies that were meant to be but couldn't implant because of man's interference with nature as God intended."

I do not know, and I do not know if any such souls exist. It may be that God has already decided which fertilized embryos are supposed to become grown-ups, and which aren't, for all time or for at least some time into the future. I do not believe so. Disease is as natural as birth, and I believe that we can interfere with disease. While I believe that God can reveal himself via the natural world that he created, I do not equate nature with God.


stem cells
Thank you for a well thought out commentary on this important topic.
I was thoughtlessly in favor of abortion until the debate regarding late term abortion.
Without those who work on the side of the ethics of these matters, we could slide down the slippery slope of designer clones for replacement parts...instead of future generations created out of the love of their parents.

Krauthammer
Krauthammer first says that Obama draws no line. Then he points out that Obama is declaring cloning out of bounds.

Now there's some real moral clarity for ya.

And why does Krauthammer not address the morality of invitro fertilization––the process that creates all of the embryos in the first place?

Is it because he hasn't given it much thought?

Krauthammer is, once again, working over time to criticize Obama.


Phylo
And why does Krauthammer not address the morality of invitro fertilization––the process that creates all of the embryos in the first place?

IVF assists it does not create or we wouldn't be having the stem cell debate would we

Reply to TTL (2)

ttl:
"When I consider that These are all souls--the spark of life already happened."

I don't see how the 'spark of life' in this embryo can be any different than the 'spark of life' in one that naturally didn't implant. I don't see how we can conclude that one has a soul while the other does not.

ttl:
"Or perhaps they are souls that are created to help us find our own particular path to God (i.e. miscarriages)and are our cross to carry. Or perhaps they are souls that were created simply to be with God and pray for our weary world. Who knows? Certainly not you. Certainly not me."

I don't know either. But I think I know what fairness is, and what hypocrisy is. I probably don't recognize it all the time, I'm probably guilty of both sometimes.

I believe that in our uncertainty, we must choose our actions as best as we can. And once we make those choices, if we make others inconsistent with the first, then we are hypocrites.

When we allow babies to be created (and much, much money to be made) by artificially fertilizing embryo's in bunches and implanting what we think is the best one and leaving the rest to eventually die of freezer burn, we are making such a choice. We are being inconsistent we prevent a scientist from using one of the leftovers.

Krauthammer dissappoints again
Federal dollars should never go to science projects. They do nothing more than limit the scope of study & direct funding toward singular directions. Scientific study should be free of imposed limitations based on chasing the federal dollars. It creates delays in discovery & new breakthroughs, setting back science for generations.

Do we still need to learn this again? How many times must we endure this? A lot more, I see.

regarding the personal stake
ttl:
"There is absolutely NO WAY that she or her husband (they have 3 little ones) would ever consider embryonic stem cells. Taking a life to save one is NEVER an option."

Well, you can probably guess that I don't see it as taking a life. But I certainly do not want to see any cessation or even lessening of research on the uses of adult stem cells to cure disease. As others have pointed out in this thread, by using an individual's own stem cells you avoid (or at least ameliorate) the whole rejection issue.
And I certainly would not want to see any treatment forced on your daughter.

Here's a plan ...
How about we stop the process of making "excess" human lives that were "just going to be discarded anyway."

There is no Medical Necessity to create more than one Embryo at a time for In-Vitro Fertilization. The large-volume approach is taken to save time and money. It is driven by PROFIT MOTIVE, folks. We've made it to send to send uninformed and unprotected workers into hazardous and life-threatening environments just to cut your costs - why should it be legal to waste human lives to cut costs this way either?

From that profit-driven exploitation of human life comes another opportunity for profit - from tearing apart those human lives for spare parts and to pander for Federal Monies.

Considering how terribly flawed and morally dubious the underlying system is, the idea of dumping the taxpayer's money down a rabbit hole is unconscionable. We're talking about a speculative medical venture that's so sketchy Private Businesses won't even risk MONEY on it, but Obama is willing to wager OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY and HUMAN LIVES on it? That's unethical stewardship of the public trust for realpolitik right there.

Obama should be thrown out of office.

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
Don't confuse discussion of the morality of embryonic stem cell research and federal funding for it. Many people believe IVF is immoral, too. Not has much discussion has occurred because the feds don't fund it.

Aargh!!
Fuzzy:
"Federal dollars should never go to science projects. They do nothing more than limit the scope of study & direct funding toward singular directions."

Tell me, do we spend orders of magnitude more on erectile dysfunction treatments than we do on curing diseases that afflict mostly poor countries because of the federal dollars involved, or because of the profit motive?

Fuzzy:
"Scientific study should be free of imposed limitations based on chasing the federal dollars. It creates delays in discovery & new breakthroughs, setting back science for generations...Do we still need to learn this again?"

Like pdm & Ken below, you are spouting this drivel on a medium invented by DARPA.

Fuzzy - On federal fiat funding
--
Writes Fuzzy:

"Federal dollars should never go to science projects. They do nothing more than limit the scope of study & direct funding toward singular directions. Scientific study should be free of imposed limitations based on chasing the federal dollars. It creates delays in discovery & new breakthroughs, setting back science for generations."


Who could argue otherwise?

The problem is that federal research funding "crowds out" private sector investment in (or philanthropic support for) much research, and the program that does not comply with federal requirements cannot operate effectively.

It can't draw or hold the post-doctorate fellows required, or get the "name" research leaders needed to advance such an institution's operations.

I would think that with Dubbya's restrictions lifted, research labs can now begin to work with tissues salvaged from sources like discarded fertility clinic embryos and surgically removed ectopic pregnancies.

Doing so no longer puts in peril their access o federal funding for other purposes.

Until the government gets to hellangone out of funding scientific research altogether (speed the day), this would serve to steer research in this line within acceptable ethical parameters.

Meanwhile, it lets the prospects for therapeutic advances by way of ESCR be explored without the handcuffs and leg-irons imposed by Republican Party service to the religious/ traditionalist/ "social" pseudoconservatives.

--

Reply to Rebekah
Rebekah:
"... nor do i wish to impede others with wombs decisions on what to do with their wombs."

I'm glad of that.

"I even admitted in my first text that I have been complicit in all of it.Having had an abortion. IVF treatment and Cryo."

The above sounds like you feel guilty, or at least bad about it, which is your right. I'm glad that you can do that, and still leave others to make their own choices.

The high cost of truth/clarity
Thank you, Dr Krauthammer, for the personal integrity and moral courage you have demonstrated throughout this debate for the cause of clarity and truth. Few know how much this has cost you personally and professionally. Please do not grow weary in well doing, for in due time...May God continue to bless you and your family in every sphere of life. As of today it is still correct that there has been no clinical/therapeutic application of embryonic stem cells for human diseases.

Thanks for the URL, Packrat

Packrat:
"Ask and ye shall receive:

http://www.speakout.com/activism/apstories/10048-1.html

The text was well thought out, and likely delevered without teleprompters."

I've wasted too much time today (this has spilled over my lunch hour far too long), but I do want to look at this (Bush's addresses regarding stem cells) tonight.


Flaming
Are we not communicating that well?? I believe that each and every fertilized egg is a baby. Whether that egg implants, whether it is miscarried, even if it is made in a petri dish. God is the giver of life. Man has free will. But God still takes care of life. Each and every "soul" that is made is going back to God whether we believe it or not. God created nature and man messes with nature all the time--that doesn't change the fact that God is the giver of life and only HE knows where all of these poor souls are. As I've stated before--the divorce of procreation from sex is the beginning of the slippery slope. That does not imply that each act of intercourse MUST end in a pregnancy. There are natural ways to avoid pregnancy without taking God out of the equation. It is man who has taken God out of the equation--but God is still in control and it is HE who knows what happens to each and every soul. If any of us has killed people through the use of abortifacients or abortion or IVF or murder of any kind--it is up to us to admit that and confess our sin to God and accept forgiveness. Because we WILL meet these souls upon our own death.

Please oppose in vitro
Obama should be thrown out of office? And why? This isn't some banana republic.

And they implant more than one embryo in vitro because the process is time consuming, costly, and dangerous to the mother and child.

Please, please, please push for the end of in vitro so the world (and many GOP moderates) can see that you folks are really crazy. That while you say you are pro life and just want to stop abortions, you won't stop there. You will push on to stop anything you think is against your bible thumping view of the world.

For the record
IVF is also playing God. Did it ever occur to a woman who could not conceive that that might be her cross in life--and that it could eventually lead her to heaven? Or that God has just the right baby already born for her to love? Man playing God. That is what this whole discussion is really about.

Robert
Those who believe in God have a responsibility to speak the truth. We have no control over the choices people make. Man will continue to be lead by the nose by the devil. It is our duty, as Christians, to point that out. That's it.

truetolife - On the precarious 'believe'
--
Writes truetolife:

"I believe that each and every fertilized egg is a baby. Whether that egg implants, whether it is miscarried, even if it is made in a petri dish. God is the giver of life. Man has free will. But God still takes care of life."


And yadda, yadda, religious yadda.

Support, truety?

When you get right down to it, truety, you're demanding that everybody take your peculiar preferences as the white light of morality, and you're making that demand - as usual - based upon nothing but your own personal ex cathedra blast of flatus.

There is a certain exquisite arrogance in the religionist's extension of personal beliefs into the realm of political action.

You "believe," and therefore you want Officer Friendly to violently enforce your beliefs upon your neighbors.

How about some gentle persuasion, truety?

Some of that "let us reason together" you keep skipping over in your bible readings?


Ah, but you don't "do" reason, do you, truety?




=====
"I'm a Roman Catholic,
.And have been since before I was born,
.And the one thing they say about Catholics is
.They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

"You don't have to be a six footer,
.You don't have to have a great brain,
.You don't have to have any clothes on,
.You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, because

"Every sperm is sacred,
.Every sperm is great,
.If a sperm is wasted,
.God gets quite irate."

-- Michael Palin, Terry Jones

The future
Mr. Krauthammer presents excellent information, some of which I didn't know and I appreciate, even if I don't totally agree, that he isn't in the tank with Obama. Kudos for Krauthammer not showing up at the signing party.

If you want to know where Obama is going with all of this "experimentation", just read Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg. This has all been done before the Obama just wants to repeat what the far left, socialist and communists have done.

It's all about control.

FlatulentLibelousMalefactor
"So now free-market economics is not only the only possible way to run an economy, but it's also the only valid *MORALITY*????"

Why yes,the free market is in fact the best way to run an economy. The free market leads to the most ethical and moral of outcomes possible. You advocate putting the gov't in charge of 'responsibility'? That is a fairy-tale promoting nothing but moral-hazard by taking away personal responsibility. But, you're a nihlist and relativist in the first place so why do you care about morality, if it's all the same to you? Why argue about anything if there are no absolutes?
---------------------------------------------
Indeed, when the gov't throws its hat in the ring they simply drive out competition and innovation that would have taken place elsewhere.

"If you really believe this, then get off the Internet. The government developed it."

Only someone who doesn't truly believe what he writes could pose such a question. Your typically dismissive comeback speaks to the arrogant and shallow nature of the liberal emotional disorder.

Flaming Liberal
In Comment #27 you say:
"You (actually sleeper) call the sperm and egg 'potential' human life, and I disagree. Both the sperm and egg have life that must be in some way human life. I can't see what other kind of life it could be."

My actual statement was:
"Potential human life is an egg and sperm in close proximity."
Sperm and egg cells are not potential human life- they are necessary building blocks, but if left alone in their natural state they will do nothing more than wither away eventually.
On the other hand, a fertilized human egg, if left alone in its natural state, will result in a live birth approximately 70% of the time (contrary to your previous assertion of a 50-75% spontaneous abortion rate).
The crux of the issue, whether the topic of discussion is abortion or embryonic stem cell research, is the question " When does life begin?" The only rational answer to that question is at fertilization. To say "I don't know" is to say " It's quite possible that we are killing human beings, but we don't know for sure so it's OK." Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

FLM
The above sounds like you feel guilty, or at least bad about it, which is your right. I'm glad that you can do that, and still leave others to make their own choices.

no. remorse is not guilt.
i was younger and very ignorant at the time.
it is not my place to judge others their choices in life.
i remark because that is my choice and also my obligation because i feel one should stand for what they believe in and especially for their moral convictions but, i stand in my space not yours.

Obama disses us all
What is with Obama dissing everyone who did not vote for him? Has the man no couth? Strange guy. Ego seems to have no bounds. Psychologists will tell us what his problem is eventually, though probably not soon enough to matter.
Charles, everything you said seems right, makes sense to me. Obama is old enough to not be acting as a juvenile. Talk about a poor winner. Tell him about the naval officer who said, "Don't cheer boys, the poor devils are dying." Show a little class.

The SLED Test
We all agree that toddlers are valuable human beings with rights. Yet the unborn differ from toddlers in only four ways, and the first letters of each of these differences spell an easy-to-remember acronym, SLED:
Size
Level of Development
Environment
Degree of Dependency.

To read this argument (which is not too long and NOT religiously based) go to the following site: http://greensboring.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7522

It's definitely worth a look.

RE: #6
Robert in CA said... "...That while you say you are pro life and just want to stop abortions, you won't stop there. You will push on to stop anything you think is against your bible thumping view of the world."

Are you really that ignorant of what's going on around you? It's not a matter of shoving the Bible down anyone's throat... it's about the "right to life." That little embryo is a human being and if it's not murdered it will be born 9 months later.

Your liberal world view has already killed 50 million people since 1973... worldwide it's probably trillions. And now liberals want to kill human embryos to harvest their cells for experimentation! Where do you think your liberal world view is leading you? Where will it end? Wake up!

Obama not so sophisticate
Mr. Krauthammer makes what I believe to be a crucial mistake when he states

"How anyone as sophisticated as Obama...."

If he is implying that obama is smart, then I would say he needs to study the man a little more. Obama has not released his college records to this day. If he were as intelligent as everyone makes him out to be, he would want those records made public so he could brag. You can easily tell from his books, which are only about himself, that he is a self absorbed individual who delights in discussing himself and what a grand person he is to have risen to the level he has achieved.

I would bet obama has made more public speaking gaffs when off the teleprompter than the last two presidents combined. He is a good reader. He is a great deliver of the message someone else has the intelligence to prepare.

Most conservative pundits, Rush Limbaugh included, will spend a full minute describing how great obama is before they take a stab at him. Why is that? They would ever do this for Reid or Pelosi.

A lack of intelligence makes it much easier for him to be a puppet.

The real moral question...
What if they find a cure? Say some scientist finds a cure for diabetes that utilizes embryonic stem cells. With the current "epidemic" of diabetes in this country (23.6 million people according to the American Diabetes Association), how many tons of embryonic stem cells are going to be required to cure all the diabetics in America? Where will they all come from? Cloning is way too expensive.

I read an article not too long ago about poor women in South America and Europe going to abortion clinics to sell their fetuses for embryonic stem cell treatments for people who want their skin to look youthful. Some of my college friends would sell their blood plasma for beer money. I can easily imagine some coed, or poor woman, or drug addict going down to the local Planned Parenthood office to sell their embryos. Just useless tissue, right?

Obama just created a whole new growth industry in America: the harvesting of fetuses.

ANOTHER GOOD ONE BY MR. KRAUTHAMMER
YOU MADE A GOOD POINT. OBAMA DOES NOT THINK THINGS THROUGH. HIS SPEECHES, AS YOU POINTED OUT ARE FRAUGHT WITH "STRAW MEN" AND HE ALWAYS COMES OUT AS OH SO SMART. WELL HE IS NOT. AS DOUG IN FL. POINTED OUT, B.O. HAS NOT EVEN RELEASED HIS RECORDS PRECISELY BECAUSE HE CANNOT BRAG ABOUT IT. FOR SOMEONE WHO ADMITTED HIS VIEW ON CONCEPTION (AND EVERYTHING ELSE FOR THAT MATTER THAT HAS TO DO WITH IT) IS ABOVE HIS PAY GRADE HE CERTAINLY HAS A LOT TO SAY ABOUT IT, MOSTLY HOGWASH.

Talk about Drawing lines
Charles says he does not believe that personhood is conferred upon the embryo at conception - so when does he think personage is conferred. That is quite a line to draw in itself. Just to be safe - shouldn't we draw that line at conception?

True
Speak all you want...keep it out of my government.

And no one has murdered 50 million people.

And who said that not being able to have a child is that woman's cross to bear? Is that Christian compassion? Why would your God create these medical procedures if he's against them? Or is it the Islamic God who is doing it, the Jewish God, the Hindu God, or maybe SATAN! Yes, that's it, Satan created the IVF process. Do your churches prevent IVF babies from being baptized?

Another One out of the park
Dr. Krauthammer, thank you for another great article on a very important subject.

You called BO the Great Pretender last summer during the campaign - you have been proven so right (unfortunately for our nation).

SJDoc bloviates as usual
"Ah, but you don't "do" reason, do you, truety?"

Truetolife forgets that in the world SJDoc inhabits the religionists' expression of viewpoint is not only disallowed; it's disparaged as well.


Robert
Are you really that dumb?

No, Chuck
are you? Why does YOUR god permit good people to create things like IVF and ESC research, just to play around? Like allowing the holocaust to happen? Why wouldn't your God punish us all for allowing abortion to go forward? you have no answers, Chuck. Not one.

Robert
"Why wouldn't your God punish us all for allowing abortion to go forward?"

Patience, Robert. Patience.

Robert
"Why wouldn't your God punish us all for allowing abortion to go forward?"

What do you think the Obama presidency is? A present?

right Chuck
that's a great 'god', sitting around, letting millions and millions die, for what? Sport?

If I thought you didn't believe that, I would laugh. But I think you do, and that is very, very sad. That you think the Christian God trumps the Islamic one, or Hindu one, or Jewish one, wow. Has that crossed your mind, Chuck? That God is a Muslim and he wanted 9/11 to happen, that he wants Islam to succeed over all other religions, that God is a mean m-f'r who can only be controlled by secular powers? Wouldn't that be a bee-atch, that God is a Muslim and you need the infidel non-believers with their logic and rational, scientific thought to defeat him? LOL.

The Left was told
in various headlines and other propaganda that there hasn't been any research going on for the last 8 years.

They are stupid or ignorant enough to believe itOK I realize some aren't stupid. I'm still looking for an explanation: anesthetized by koolaid? obama-worship blinded them?.
In any case, they believe that.

They also believe that "scientists" have definitive answers. Iditos like Algore actually thinks that scientific debates have an "end". Real scientists would laugh at him publicly if they weren't making grant money off him. More ignorance.

Medical science gives us "this thalidomide will help you- it's perfectly safe". it was at that time.
It's just "what we know so far".
Some poor schmucks are expecting their kids diabetes to be cured in the coming weeks now that obamassiah has spoken.
That's unethical


Test
Test

stem cell
excellant article....do you suppose Obama will read this and respond?.....of course not he is the Messiah and he has been anointed to make these decisions...on his vast experience as a community organizer

MacQ
the 3 most unethical words in history...let us pray. Anyone who prays or thinks that faith will get them through cannot possibly understand or appreciate science. I suggest that you unplug your computer, never see a doctor,walk everywhere, etc, etc, on and on, science that has made our lives better than it was even 50 years ago. For every thalidomide, there have been hundreds of medications discovered through science. But you keep praying. I'll go to my doctor.

Obama Don't Know What he Signs
Obama Signs Law Banning Federal
Embryo Research Two Days After
Signing Executive Order to OK It
CNS News, by Terence P. Jeffrey

"On Wednesday, only two days after he lifted President Bush’s executive order banning federal funding of stem cell research that requires the destruction of human embryos, President Barack Obama signed a law that explicitly bans federal funding of any ''research in which a human embryo or embryos are destroyed, discarded, or knowingly subjected to risk of injury or death.''

The provision was buried in the 465-page omnibus appropriations bill that Obama signed Wednesday."

Robert
the 3 most unethical words in history...let us pray.

one can only hope (pray) that you say these things just to inflame.
you appear to take issue with everyone and every statement that even remotely sounds spiritual...that's sad.

i'll pray for your soul robert and that whatever is driving your hostilities releases you and that you achieve peace.

praying is unethical? tee hee
Some of the greatest scientists that ever lived were Christians, and I guess they were unethical? because... they prayed? I guess they didn't understand or appreciate science like Robert does. and so if this is true,I guess our president is unethical too, since he says he's a Christian and he prays. this is such a silly comment, I can't believe that anyone with any intelligence would write it. also, some of our first colleges were founded by Christians. It's not that hard to look up. Our country has only become more unethical since prayer has been demonized by folks like this. Welcome to the Twilight Zone, people. and I will keep praying (for you) and going to my dr. It's ok to do both.

Chuck - On disparagement
--
Writes Chuck (as usual, without much point):

"[t]ruetolife forgets that in the world SJDoc inhabits the religionists' expression of viewpoint is not only disallowed; it's disparaged as well."


And this is wrong...how?

The "religionists' expression of viewpoint" is always - ALWAYS - an expression without support in objective reality.

It is absolutely unfounded. By definition. That which is predicated upon a personal and ineffable "belief" in something which is supernatural cannot even accurately be said capable of being shared in common by the believer's co-religionists.

If by being "disallowed," Chuck, you mean given no weight in public debate, then you're absolutely right.

That the religionist's FEELINGS exist - his emotions, sentiments, fanatacism, deadly dangerousness, bloody stupidity, malignant idiocy - I have no doubt. Reliable observation makes such a reality manifest beyond rebuttal.

But that they conceive themselves to have grounds for imposing their feelings upon their neighbor is a valid explanation of their pathology only in the sense that a "crime of passion" analysis may explain why a maiming or a murder has taken place.

They're out of their friggin' little minds.

Non compos mentis is not a basis upon which to set government policy.

Thus do I strive for "disparagement."

The alternative is the defense of individual rights with lethal force, and much as I would personally delight in seeing the scattered corpses of authoritarians of all types - religionist, socialist, Ku Kluxer, et alia - I am disposed by moral scruple to seek less violent ways to stamp "Null & Void" all over these bastiches.

Whenever possible.

--

Robert
Of course bearing one's cross is the most redemptive thing a person can do on this earth. Offering it up is compassionate. Man, working with satan and deceived by him is responsible for ALL forms of birth control and IVF and abortion. God gave man free will. Anyone can still follow the dictates of satan at their discretion. It is just the Christians duty to point out truth. Of course we can baptize babies born out of IVF--we can baptize babies born out of rape too--as a matter of fact, Baptism is what wipes our souls clean of original sin--our natural fallen nature handed down from Adam. It is God's wish that we confess our sins and receive His forgiveness. That means putting aside pride and understanding that we are sinful creatures. God made us to know, love and serve Him in this world and be happy with Him forever in the next! It is the "serving" part that people get all worked up about--they want to serve their own selfish natures.

what to permit, what not
We do permit the creation of life in labs which results in the destruction of embryos every year. I have never heard of any major movement to adopt these embryos -- so they are destroyed. It is not much different to me than allowing the pill which causes zygotes (in some cases) not to implant. To me, these issues are much different than killing a 2 or 3 month old due to birth control. The GOP is often dishonest about this -- they are not honest so we have abortion rates way higher than other countries that have legal abortion (France, Belgium and the Netherlands).

Jim
"As much as the messiah is not a scientist, he is clearly out of his league as both lawyer and philosopher. He is neither. He is a world-class BSer.

...The American Public needs to be reading from the same teleprompter as B.O. while he's speaking. Reading the words, it's clear that he is less than his own delivery."

There is much in what you say. I think this jerk is simply a tool of various interests, and he simply reads prepared scrips off his teleprompter when he's performing on their behalf.

This is the 21st century version of the animated agitprop manikin, product of the visual media age. For my part, I can not stand listening to him let alone looking at the creep/ape.

And this is what the TV sludge addicts thought was presidential?

sleeper - Hm? Support?
--
Writes sleeper:

"...a fertilized human egg, if left alone in its natural state, will result in a live birth approximately 70% of the time (contrary to your previous assertion of a 50-75% spontaneous abortion rate)."


Supporting citation for that "70%" figure? It seems much too damned high. A look 'round through online sources of information fails to confirm.

Whereas the rates of spontaneous abortion mentioned by your opponent tends to be better supported. See, for example, http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/340/23/1796 , where a spontaneous rate of early loss/miscarriage was established at 45.7% among the study subjects.

My personal opinion (as a primary care grunt, and I know that's not worth much) is that the studies undertaken thus far on the subject of gestational implantation in humans is minimal, and what there is has been poorly powered. The literature on early pregnancy loss (either miscarriage or spontaneous abortion) is impoverished in the extreme with regard to incidence figures. Really ought to be a lot better.

I know that some of the in-vitro fertilization (IVF) mavens have made astonishingly high claims for successful implantation rates as the results of the various approaches they take to intervention, but there's a self-serving aspect to their "cookery" that makes me strongly suspicious of false reporting in their publications.

Maybe you've been led astray by guys who've been "cherry-picking" results to make their posters look sweet at ACOG meetings.

Caveat emptor.

--

Great column, Charles
When you give this crowd an inch, this is what you get. That's the moral dilemma of conceding something on the Embryonic Stem Cell issue - whole sale Mengele style research.

Will we ever be able to rebuild the bridges this POS is burning?

A big problem with embryonic
Is their propensity to cause tumors in strange places. This does not happen with cord blood nor adult stem cells. I suspect it is because the cord blood and adult cells are from completely developed humans. Taking stem cells from a developing embryo doesnt'provide knowledge of what cell is being used.

Robert - On anything that's peaceful
--
Writes Robert:

"Anyone who prays or thinks that faith will get them through cannot possibly understand or appreciate science."


Why should that necessarily be so?

Scientific method is a means of consciously and unemotionally applying scrupulous observation and skeptical analysis to the examination of phenomena in the physical universe.

It has no real emotional coloration, and that is one of its necessary qualities.

But humans are not without emotions, and whatever assuages emotional ills - a rabbit's foot in the pocket, an method of preparing a tissue specimen that locks into an obsessive-compulsive ritual, prayer, whatever - can be useful, and is almost invariably harmless.

(( I have frequently to be poked with very low-guage needles, and because I'm disinclined to apply EMLA beforehand, it hurts like hell. So I find myself silently reciting the Bene Gesserit "litany against fear" from Frank Herbert's novel *Dune*. It's not logical, but it helps. ))

Matters of personal conscience - kept personal - do no violence to the rights of others. They may make one susceptible to error, but if error-checking mechanisms are not screwed with (and that's the essence of scientific method) there's not much likelihood of harm.





====
Lady Claire Gurney: "How do you know you're God?"

Jack Arnold Alexander Tancred Gurney, 14th Earl of Gurney: "Simple. When I pray to Him, I find I am talking to myself."

-- Peter Barnes (screenplay), *The Ruling Class* (1972)

Almost Feel Sorry
For Obama. It must be strange to go through life totally without convictions, core principals and common sense. He's not stupid, but appears to have no real moral compass. He can switch opinions so quickly, we nearly have to anchor heads down to keep them from spinning.

Great column, but I disagree with Charles on when life begins. This is why, and it's pretty clear. And there are others equally as clear.

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
-- Psalm 139:13-16 NIV

Once that door is open even a crack, progressives will not stop until science is allowed to clone human/animal hybrids and anything else they want. Let's face it, the heart of man is desperately wicked.

Mankind would be messin' where we just shouldn't be messin'. There's a reason God layed out laws to live to live by. They are for our own good. THOU SHALT NOT MURDER has a nice ring to it, dontcha' think? Along with the rest of the Top Ten?

And for those here who think God's opinion is stupid-well, we'll just have to see who winds up being right in the end.

So Sorry, Robert
But science doesn't take God by surprise. He's not biting His nails in nervous anticipation, fearing that mankind will come up with something that disproves His existence. Quite the opposite.

God is the one who invented science. There are many, many scientific statements in the Bible, made thousands of years before manking "discovered" they are true.

Almost daily, there are discoveries in science and archeology which are proving the accuracy and truth of the Bible, and this will continue to happen.

The day will come that people such as yourself will have to make a decision. The facts will be so clear that you will no longer be able to continue to hate God and deny His existence, unless you do so out of sheer prejudice. Which you may do, but I hope not. I hope you will admit what's right in front of your face and I will be praying that you do.

The consequences of making the wrong choice are enormous.

Marion - On cell biology
--
Writes Marion:

"A big problem with embryonic [stem cells] is their propensity to cause tumors in strange places. This does not happen with cord blood nor adult stem cells. I suspect it is because the cord blood and adult cells are from completely developed humans. Taking stem cells from a developing embryo doesn't provide knowledge of what cell is being used."


This is not an unforeseen hazard of embryonic stem cell research (ESCR), I assure you. The tissue invasiveness of the human embryo has to some extent been taken to be the very model of the mechanism by which malignancies go from Stage I to the more invasive stages of cancer spread.

Embryonic "true" stem cells are said to be pluripotent. So-called "adult stem cells" are mature (fully differentiated) somatic cells which have been found in tissue samples as (or induced to revert to) what is called a progenitor cell status.

They are not stem cells in the precise sense at all.

These progenitor cells can be unipotent or multipotent, but are not genuinely pluripotent, and their more limited range of differentiative capacity necessarily imposes upon them less potential for activities of which the embryonic "true" stem cells are capable.

Studies of true embryonic stem cells are therefore warranted, and limitations upon the harvesting of such stem cells from discarded IVF embryos and excised ectopic pregnancies is not only morally but scientifically defensible in the extreme.

Though it's well known that many religionists object to IVF - worshipping as they do at the "cross" an infertile woman must bear under the will of God - these religionists are merely arrogant @ssholes who (if there is a God) will be spending eternity in hell for that arrogance and for their general fund of uncharitable hatred toward their neighbors.

--

Victoria - On historicity
--
Writes Victoria:

"Almost daily, there are discoveries in science and archeology which are proving the accuracy and truth of the Bible, and this will continue to happen."


As a historical record, the much-munged, extirpated, adumbrated, and hammered-to-suit text of the Bible (apocrypha and all) continues to be examined as among many indicia by which archeological research is undertaken.

But the religious texts of other sects (including those of pharoanic Egypt, pre-Christian Rome and Greece, the Mayans, the Incas, the Aztecs, eastern Asia, etc.) have been similarly sourced, for the same purposes.

This does no more to support the literal veracity of the supernatural suppositions in these writings than have the same sorts of examination done diddly to test affirmatively the "truth of the Bible" with regard to its putative insight into the mind of your personal Sky Pixie.

You are, Victoria, without humility.



And you claim that your Sky Pixie is "... the one who invented science," eh?

Hm. If you find yourself in His awful presence post-mortem, Victoria, I think you're totally damned.

Don't you?





=====
"It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism."

-- H.L. Mencken

grubby - On Barry's TelePrompTer
--
Observes grubby:

"The American Public needs to be reading from the same teleprompter as B.O. while he's speaking."


Might help. Inasmuch as our Moronic Mulatto Messiah never seems to say anything that isn't projected on those funny-looking glass panels in front of him (what a terror he must've been in moot court session in law school!), I'd say it's worthwhile for his utterances to be issued right up front as subtitles.

We can read it while he's reading it, right?


The more I think on it, the more I regret that Mocha Marvin is neither my contemporary nor did he go to a high school participating in the National Forensic League.

I'm willing to bet that if he participated in debate, he got his narrow half-tone butt blasted on a regular and reliable basis.

Thinking on his feet - off the basketball court - is obviously not his forte.



By the bye, anybody heard anything about Mrs. Soetoro's Failed Abortion allowing his medical records in Kenya, or his academic records at the Punahau School, Occidental College, Columbia University, or Harvard Law to be unsealed?

How long does the nominal Commander-in-Chief get away with avoiding response to the growing suspicion that he's not constitutionally qualified to occupy that big fancy office he's sitting in?

See http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81550




=====
"The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught."

-- H.L. Mencken

reply to Sleeper
sleeper:
"Sperm and egg cells...if left alone in their natural state they will do nothing more than wither away eventually.
On the other hand, a fertilized human egg, if left alone in its natural state, will result in a live birth approximately 70% of the time (contrary to your previous assertion of a 50-75% spontaneous abortion rate)."

Google returns results all over the map on this, from 30% to 80% average implantation rates. I feel comfortable in saying that a majority of newly-fertilized embryo's fail to permanently implant.

sleeper:
"The crux of the issue, whether the topic of discussion is abortion or embryonic stem cell research, is the question " When does life begin?" The only rational answer to that question is at fertilization."

I see this as at best an irrational, and at worst an arrogantly hypocritical answer to that question. When we thoughtlessly discard all embryos that do not naturally implant, then with ostentatious piety forbid a woman from choosing to so discard one from her own womb or forbid the scientist to pick up such a discarded embryo for research, what we are saying is that the embryo is either a bit of tissue or a complete human being according to whether or not the determination is convenient or troubling to us, but women seeking an abortion or scientists wishing to do stem cell research aren't allowed to do likewise.

Flaming
You have trouble comprehending, don't you??

The REAL one True Religion
pdm:
"Why yes,the free market is in fact the best way to run an economy. The free market leads to the most ethical and moral of outcomes possible."

The free market, absent governemnt regulation and oversight, leads to Bernie Madoff, Charles Keating, Enron, the current economic mess, the S&L Crisis (a direct and prompt result of Reagan's deregulation of the industry), child labor, and on and on.

Too much governemnt regulation and taxation destroys economic growth by frustrating rather than harnessing for the common good all of our ambitions to improve ourselves and our lot in life. But too little results in the law of the jungle. Clearly, the events of the past few years demonstrate the need for better regulation of the sale of complex financial instruments.

In fact, as our society growth laregr and more complex (and boy does it ever) so must the size and complexity of goevernment oversight. The alternative is anarchy.

pdm:
"..you're a nihlist and relativist in the first place so why do you care about morality, if it's all the same to you? Why argue about anything if there are no absolutes?"

My morality is (apparently) different than your own. It sounds like you cannot admit that such a thing is possible.

sleeper:
"Only someone who doesn't truly believe what he writes could pose such a question. Your typically dismissive comeback speaks to the arrogant and shallow nature of the liberal emotional disorder."

I'm sorry if you find it shallow or dismissive, but it's just too funny ro read you and Ken try to spread your claim that nothing good can come of govenment-funded research, and do so via a medium that is arguably the most revolutionary and transformative innovation of the 20th century, and that was created by the Defense Advanced Products Research Agency (DARPA).

Hi ttl
"You have trouble comprehending, don't you?? "

I'll admit to having trouble sleeping, though I have to give it another try now, I have to work tomorrow. I think SJ Doc's reply to you was a little on the rude side, but I do also think you haven't really thought about what I've written.

I'd like you to know that I believe in God, probably with at least as much faith as you appear to have.

Flamng - On the ''mixed economy''
--
Writes Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist:

"The free market, absent governemnt regulation and oversight, leads to Bernie Madoff, Charles Keating, Enron, the current economic mess, the S&L Crisis (a direct and prompt result of Reagan's deregulation of the industry), child labor, and on and on."



No. Definitely, absolutely, and emphatically, no.

It is precisely the LACK of a free market that enabled the fraudulences of Madoff, Keating, Skilling, Siepierski, and other such "smartest guys in the room."

Without government regulation providing assurances that enterprises such as Enron, Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, Lincoln Savings & Loan, and their kind were "fail-safe," with all sorts of indemnificatory mechanisms and supposedly effective bureaucratic scrutiny, they never could've gotten away with their fraudulences.

Indeed, if the Madoff case proves ANYTHING, it's that the Securities & Exchange Commission simply does NOT work. Madoff had been reported to the worker ants of the SEC repeatedly over the past decade and more.

Maybe "worker ants" is inappropriate. These stingless drones did NOTHING to investigate.

Nothing.

A free market - free of the numbing as well as the nominally anti-criminal effects of government intervention - functions almost as homeostasis functions in the human body.

Diminish the incentive for investors to rigorously and skeptically scrutinize those with whom they do business - as government regulation is DESIGNED to do, the better to benefit politically influential charlatans like Charles Keating - and you disarm the normal "bullsh!t detectors" of the private investor, doing incomparably greater damage than would occur if all such regulation were treated as the criminal unconstitutionality it truly is.

--

Blastocysts
Would Moses have recognized a blastocyst as an object of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" when he came up with that commandment? Would a member of an indigenous, uncontacted tribe that has a sanction against murder include a blastocyst in that sanction? It took science to identify a blastocyst for what it is.

This is an excellent article by Dr. Krauthammer. As it has been for as long as science has produced devices and processes that can be used for good or bad, society will evaluate and control use of the results of embryonic stem cell research.

Carry on science!

Okay, Flaming...
I'm very sorry that you're having trouble sleeping tonight. I've been there too...but not too often, thank God!

SJDoc is confused and silly--I don't respond to him anymore because he is only a "fire starter" and blows hot air. Just ask him directly or you can refer to MellorSJ2 also!

I really HAVE given what you said thought. You stated:When we thoughtlessly discard all embryos that do not naturally implant, then with ostentatious piety forbid a woman from choosing to so discard one from her own womb or forbid the scientist to pick up such a discarded embryo for research, what we are saying is that the embryo is either a bit of tissue or a complete human being according to whether or not the determination is convenient or troubling to us, but women seeking an abortion or scientists wishing to do stem cell research aren't allowed to do likewise.

You keep taking the stance that embryos that do not implant are "thoughtlessly" discarded. How so?? I tried to explain that God is the creator and we don't know, as human beings, what His plan is for His creations, including spontaneous abortions, miscarriages, and babies intentionally murdered. Nothing God creates may be thought of as "thoughtless." He even cares about a single sparrow that falls to the ground...

on stem cell research and other issues
I'm not religious, but thank God for Charles Krauhammer. Love that clear thinking moral man!
Anda(Ca)

on stem cell research and other issues
I'm not religious, but thank God for Charles Krauhammer. Love that clear thinking moral man!
Anda(Ca)

truetolife - On willful ignorance
--
Writes truety:

"I tried to explain that God is the creator and we don't know, as human beings, what His plan is for His creations, including spontaneous abortions, miscarriages...."


Et cetera, almost certainly unfolding to include pedestrians run over by trucks, suicides, murders, and the bad luck to work with Hillary Clinton.

The uniform cast of all this religionist attribution of cause to a deity with a divine purpose is that once "God's will" is invoked, it is no longer necessary to examine what had happened, or what might happen in future should there be an expectation of "God's will" working again.

Indeed, in truety's case, there's more than the mere suggestion that anyone audacious enough to inquire after she has pronounced it "His plan" is culpable of impiety.

That's a fundamentlly deceitful way of foreclosing debate and exploration.

(( "Here There Be Sea Monsters," and don't you dare sail your ship to close to the Forbidden Zone. There are things man wasn't meant to know! ))

That it is borne of truety's own self-deceptions (it's so much more COMFORTING to know that there's "His plan" and you don't have to struggle with thoughts that make truety's pointy little skull throb) as well as her religionist's innate desire to suppress dissent by any means for which she can grope....

Well, that just makes it all the more odious, doesn't it?





=====
"Man schlägt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern."

-- Heinz Guderian

Embryo: Human or Not?
The core issue is scientific, not religious. Is an embryo a human being or not? Science answers unequivocably in the affirmative. All of the DNA that is necessary has already been obtained from the fertilized egg. If given the opportunity to develop in the womb, the embryo will become a fetus or baby. President Bush's analysis was clear, concise and precise in drawing lines. President Obama's analysis has not. He has uncovered the Pandora's box to allow the commercial development and harvesting of embryos supposedly to alleviate human suffering at taxpayers' expense. What is the difference between what he has done and what the Nazi doctors did in the concentration with their experimentations on their captives, whom they regarded as subhuman or barely human, if human at all, to serve the interests of the Third Reich? How is this any different from subjugating blacks as slaves to serve the commercial and domestic interests of an agrarian economy? What is next? Euthanasia? The rationale for killing the old, the debilitated, and the physically or mentally handicapped to make way for the fit and the able has been a repeated theme taken up by Darwin, Malthus, Margaret Sanger, Hitler, and now, it appears, President Obama.

Krauhammer wakes up!

“While I favor moving that moral line to additionally permit the use of spare fertility clinic embryos, Obama replaced it with no line at all.”

Response:

When you give a Pro-Abort an inch, they will take a mile! What did you expect Charles.

To LIBERALS it's about a choice. To NORMAL PEOPLE it's about a child. To the ABORTION industry, it's about making a buck! If they can make additional money harvesting stem cells before they throw the remains of their “Killing for Convenience,” They will.

Now that the “Obamanation” has made that possible, they will crank up their money machine to support embryonic stem cell research, as opposed to adult stem cell research!

Care to debate which stem cell research has shown MORE promising results?
(I didn't think so!)

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/winter01/ste m_cell.html

Back to your liberal nest (a Far-Left website) you Liberal “Pro-Aborts.”

"To say that the fetus is just a chunk of tissue is to deny it dignity and to legitimize a violent act of destruction of another human being."

Former abortionist Bernard Nathanson

"The greatest destroyer of peace is abortion
because if a mother can kill her own child,
what is left for me to kill you and you to kill me?
There is nothing between."

Mother Teresa

Ribert says:
" Wouldn't that be a bee-atch, that God is a Muslim and you need the infidel non-believers with their logic and rational, scientific thought to defeat him? LOL."

How's that concept working our for your secularists friends in Europe and now, lately, here, Robert?

------

"The Lord has made verything for its purposes, even the wicked for the day of trouble" Prov. 16:4

SJDoc nullifies his own premise
"The alternative is the defense of individual rights with lethal force, and much as I would personally delight in seeing the scattered corpses of authoritarians of all types - religionist, socialist, Ku Kluxer, et alia - I am disposed by moral scruple to seek less violent ways to stamp "Null & Void" all over these bastiches."

Michael W.
"Care to debate which stem cell research has shown MORE promising results?
(I didn't think so!)"

Irrelevant.

Base research should continue with ESC to gain knowledge and a better understand of these cells.

The science of stem cells should determine which path, embryo or adult, we shall take.

When we die, many of us donate our bodies to science, the gift of life to another person.

For ectopic pregnancies, how is this any different if we use the embryo for science?

Mod Mark
"The science of stem cells should determine which path, embryo or adult, we shall take."

I'd be curious to know how much government funding of research the advances using adult stem cell were made under as opposed to embryonic stem cells.

Chuck

Federal money should be available for stem cell base research, this generally goes to our university system.

The federal government should not make two piles of money, adult or embryo research.

To get funding, University use the grant system. Make a proposal for research funding and make a decision based on scientific merit.

I do not believe that Bush or Obama is qualified to judge the merits of a specific grant, let the science community decide.




what a tiny world
people who do not believe in God "create" for themselves. Let the science community decide?? Why? Because all scientists are so ethical? Must be easy to go through life caring only about oneself. "Not my problem." Very shallow way to live.

Its economics not science
Embryonic stem cell research was not illegal before the President Obama signed his executive order. Private entities were doing it. Federal money also supported such research on older lines.

This is a bunch of economically avaricious scientists wanting the money to get in the game with the hop of winning a big pot of money and scientific prizes.

They sell it like Salome with the promises of what exists under the veil. And they want to do it without any risk to themselves.

Given that some benefits may exist they use cuddle words no better and no worse than the patent drug salesmen used to sell the bottled cures.

Worse, they never promise specifically anything specifically, these masters of the scientific subjunctive. They never bet exactly their own reputation, put their money where their mouths are.

In the meantime, the scientists using umbilical cord and adult stem cells plod on making useful discoveries without breaching the code of philosphic ethics to which many scitizens in this country subscribe..

The embryonic stem cell scientists do not give a damn about that. It is all a game to them. It's all about "Throw me the money. There are patents, papers and prizes to be had.

Truthful James
Excellent post. Thank you.

Chuck - On nullification
--
Chuck does nothing more than quote a paragraph from an earlier post of mine and then append in the "Subject" line a dollop of bullsh!t about how something therein "nullifies" a premise I'd advanced.

Chuck, that which is intrinsic to your own personal psychosis is NOT obvious to sane people. Yes, you see phantasms and hear voices.

The folks around you do not share your hallucinations. You gotta explain 'em.


Like all sane people, I acknowledge that the individual right to life carries with it the moral and legal right to use lethal force in response to those who aggressively violate those individual rights.

I will not initiate violent force. I sure as hell will RESPOND with violent force when there is imminent threat or active transgression under way.

Getting old and crochety, despite my diminishing physical capacity, I'm still quite capable of breaking things and killing people. Given the moment or two needed to adjust my bifocals, I think I can create a corpse or six before the wolves pull me under.

This is one of the reason why the members of the National Socialist Democrat @sshole Party (NSDAP) itch so frantically to disarm the hundreds of thousands of my fellow citizens likely to give up their weaponry only on an "ammunition first" basis.

Being by nature violent aggressors and criminals themselves, they regard the thought of pushing people into peonage while the potential peons have firearms of any kind in their hands as more perilous than they like.

Like you religious pseudoconservatives, "Liberals" are cowards.

It's unfair to the mustelidae to call either of you types "weasels" simply because a weasel proves himself a gutsy little sonofabitch when you push him.

--

truetolife - Keep your hands to yourself
--
Whines truety:

"Must be easy to go through life caring only about oneself. 'Not my problem.' Very shallow way to live."


And how hard is it to keep one's hands off other people's lives, liberties, and property, truety?

Your "Not my problem" is more properly phrased "Not my business."

Apart from your True Believer psychosis, just what gives you the authority to meddle in other people's lives?

Your absolutely and wonderfully unsupported, unproven, and ineffable religious beliefs?

Your peculiar fear of "shallow," truety - your quest for personal validation through a perpetual smarmy condemnation of other people's values with the political objective of putting the muzzle Officer Friendly's police special against your neighbor's forehead and threatening him with death because he won't do what truety wants him to do - is hateful in thought and purpose, and damnable therefore.

If your Sky Pixie does exist, truety, and functions as you describe, YOU are going to hell.

Lack of charity toward your fellow man, you arrogant clown.

Hey, I've got PRECISELY as much authority to speak - ex cathedra - on this matter of faith as you have with regard to ESCR.

Ain't that nice?




=====
"You cannot force me to agree with you. You can force me to act as though I agree with you — but then you'll have to watch your back. All the time."

-- L. Neil Smith

just doing my job
One of the Spiritual Works of Mercy is to admonish the sinner.

Choice. Whos?
Michael W. Location: ME writes:
"To LIBERALS it's about a choice. To NORMAL PEOPLE it's about a child."

It is about Choice. The problem is WHOS? Any one ask the child if he/she wants to die?

That is the fallacy of the Liberal choice argument. It fails to deal with the question of what the child wants.

Can't get comments
Can't get comments

Even More Fanatic than Evangelicals
SJ Doc:
"It is precisely the LACK of a free market that enabled the fraudulences of Madoff, Keating, Skilling, Siepierski...Without government regulation providing assurances that enterprises such as Enron, Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, Lincoln Savings & Loan, and their kind were "fail-safe," with all sorts of indemnificatory mechanisms and supposedly effective bureaucratic scrutiny,, they never could've gotten away with their fraudulences."

If you cook up an explanation Rupe-Goldbergesqly complicated enough, you can fit any set of circumstances into the free-market-is-God framework. I've already read columnists here and heard them on Talk radio preparing their scripts on how the Ecomony is recovering in spite of Obama's interventions, because it could not possibly be because of them.

Consider this: Thanks to Senator Phil Gramm's late December machinations in the early 2000's, the market for Credit Default Swaps and Collateralized Debt Obligations and certain other kinds of drivative is COMPLETELY, and I do mean ABSOLUTELY, unregulated. The best educated guesses are that over 30 TRILLION Dollars changed hands in that marketplace.

Well, since they are the most unregulated, then they must be the safest, right? People and Institutions must be flocking to buy ever more of them as I write these words, right? And being as sound and healthy a marketplace as it must be (being totally unregulated & all) and being over 30 TRILLION dollars huge we MUST be in the midst of an unprecedented prosperity and economic well-being, RIGHT???????

I must be blind or something, because I just can't find a sign of this prosperty which must be all around me according to your theories.

Embryonic Stem Cells
In order to make embryo stem cells practical for therapeutic use, it would be necessary to create a new stem cell line for each patient that needs treatment. Embryonic stem cells are extracted from the inner cell mass of a blastocyst,a highly differentiated, highly developed embryo that has grown to the point where it is ready to attach to the uterine, and has reached a stage in development that requires activation of the embryo's own genes, called genomic activation. The genetic information is extracted from the nucleus and replaced with the genetic information of the patient. Researchers hypothesize that when the genetic information from the cells of a patient is used, the stem cells will be able to make customized tissue that will not be rejected by the patient.

Disgusting Policy
Logically, it isn't possible to view any type of research with embryonic stem cells as anything other than human experimentation. If human development is a process, the earliest stage of development is still the development of a human, is it not? We are kidding ourselves by thinking we can set parameters at which it is morally allowable to play with human development. We can't and we will continue to change the parameters when some promising research reveals that we ought to allow research on those in a vegetative state or the mentally-challenged. That cannot be allowed. I know we're going to regret this.

Another problem is that research on embryonic stem cells is subject to the whim of the current administration, not some agreed upon moral bright line which is debated and discussed by everyone. So, it becomes a political football. How is it possible to have any continuity in the research if the next administration stops this?

I was, am and will always be opposed to this research and I sincerely hope it leads nowhere. There is no difference between us and the Nazis if we go down this path.
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