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Saturday, May 31, 2008
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Environmentalists Pick Up Where Communists Left Off
by Charles Krauthammer
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WASHINGTON -- I'm not a global warming believer. I'm not a global warming denier. I'm a global warming agnostic who believes instinctively that it can't be very good to pump lots of CO2 into the atmosphere, but is equally convinced that those who presume to know exactly where that leads are talking through their hats.

Predictions of catastrophe depend on models. Models depend on assumptions about complex planetary systems -- from ocean currents to cloud formation -- that no one fully understands. Which is why the models are inherently flawed and forever changing. The doomsday scenarios posit a cascade of events, each with a certain probability. The multiple improbability of their simultaneous occurrence renders all such predictions entirely speculative.

Yet on the basis of this speculation, environmental activists, attended by compliant scientists and opportunistic politicians, are advocating radical economic and social regulation. "The largest threat to freedom, democracy, the market economy and prosperity," warns Czech President Vaclav Klaus, "is no longer socialism. It is, instead, the ambitious, arrogant, unscrupulous ideology of environmentalism."

If you doubt the arrogance, you haven't seen that Newsweek cover story that declared the global warming debate over. Consider: If Newton's laws of motion could, after 200 years of unfailing experimental and experiential confirmation, be overthrown, it requires religious fervor to believe that global warming -- infinitely more untested, complex and speculative -- is a closed issue.

But declaring it closed has its rewards. It not only dismisses skeptics as the running dogs of reaction, i.e., of Exxon, Cheney and now Klaus. By fiat, it also hugely re-empowers the intellectual left.

For a century, an ambitious, arrogant, unscrupulous knowledge class -- social planners, scientists, intellectuals, experts and their left-wing political allies -- arrogated to themselves the right to rule either in the name of the oppressed working class (communism) or, in its more benign form, by virtue of their superior expertise in achieving the highest social progress by means of state planning (socialism).

Two decades ago, however, socialism and communism died rudely, then were buried forever by the empirical demonstration of the superiority of market capitalism everywhere from Thatcher's England to Deng's China, where just the partial abolition of socialism lifted more people out of poverty more rapidly than ever in human history.

Just as the ash heap of history beckoned, the intellectual left was handed the ultimate salvation: environmentalism. Now the experts will regulate your life not in the name of the proletariat or Fabian socialism but -- even better -- in the name of Earth itself.

Environmentalists are Gaia's priests, instructing us in her proper service and casting out those who refuse to genuflect. (See Newsweek above.) And having proclaimed the ultimate commandment -- carbon chastity -- they are preparing the supporting canonical legislation that will tell you how much you can travel, what kind of light you will read by, and at what temperature you may set your bedroom thermostat.

Just Monday, a British parliamentary committee proposed that every citizen be required to carry a carbon card that must be presented, under penalty of law, when buying gasoline, taking an airplane or using electricity. The card contains your yearly carbon ration to be drawn down with every purchase, every trip, every swipe.

There's no greater social power than the power to ration. And, other than rationing food, there is no greater instrument of social control than rationing energy, the currency of just about everything one does and uses in an advanced society.

So what does the global warming agnostic propose as an alternative? First, more research -- untainted and reliable -- to determine (a) whether the carbon footprint of man is or is not lost among the massive natural forces (from sunspot activity to ocean currents) that affect climate, and (b) if the human effect is indeed significant, whether the planetary climate system has the homeostatic mechanisms (like the feedback loops in the human body, for example) with which to compensate.

Second, reduce our carbon footprint in the interim by doing the doable, rather than the economically ruinous and socially destructive. The most obvious step is a major move to nuclear power, which to the atmosphere is the cleanest of the clean.

But your would-be masters have foreseen this contingency. The Church of the Environment promulgates secondary dogmas as well. One of these is a strict nuclear taboo.

Rather convenient, is it not? Take this major coal-substituting fix off the table and we will be rationing all the more. Guess who does the rationing?

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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News Articles On This Topic
 

Global warming

What a hoax,finally someone tells it truthfully. However the liberals will change our lives forever, waist millions of tax dollars on something created by Hollywood to sell a movie.

Is CO2 a Greenhouse Gas?
I read an article the other day describing what scientists hoped to learn about earth by studying Mars. They study the geology, climate and even the atmosphere, yet they have not put them together for the composite.

Here on earth, we hear fearful cries from hysterical left leaners about the 30percent increase in CO2 they think they've measured since 1950(?). That would be 30% of 250ppm or 75ppm which when added to the 0.25% now equals 325ppm. That means that in terms of percent of atmosphere it is 0.35%, a little over a third of one percent, total CO2. This compares with the 80% nitrogen and approx. 18.5% oxygen, plus the other trace gases that exist due to nature and those manmade. Radical environmentalists are saying that this increase has raised global temperature over a 1.5 degrees and that any further increases with result in a runaway climate shift that will destroy civilization.

Now back to Mars, where the atmosphere there is said to be about 950,000ppm CO2. Yes, that is 95percent CO2. The daytime/nighttime temperature swings exceed 120-150 degrees C. That means that little heat is trapped in the atmosphere by CO2. If heat was trapped, the air temperature would not lose heat just because the sun set. We need a good climatologist to explain why Mars isn't sweltering in its trapped heat from 95% CO2 atmosphere. No water vapor?

Finite?!?!
The CONSTANTGARDENER says " Why the argument?
The supply of oil is finite."

Petrolium is produced in the earth's mantle by combining iron oxide, calcium carbonate, and water under high heat and pressure. While petrolium is not one of the major products of the mantle (the largest are, in order of volume, hydrogen, carbon dioxide, and methane), if the earth ever stops producing petrolium, we'll have far more serious problems than the price of gasoline.


The Isms
As a former registered democrat who could no longer abide by the philosophically regressive evolution of the party, I changed party affiliation to Republican prior to the end of Clinton's BIG LEWINSKY. The radical liberals of today were the communists of yesterday. Oh, they'll try to slide by with the now standard tactic of calling themselves by the exact opposite of what they really are, "progressives". Heh, hardly!

They've taken their global climate change hoax & made environmentalism their new ideology by which they intend to cause enough global economic havoc as they possibly can. The most extreme of today's radical liberal democrats are incapable of being honest enough to admit that they now follow the principles of communism, socialism at best, & they're attempting the biggest power/money grab of all time through their new religion - environmentalism.

Conservatives should classify environmentalism as an official religion & keep it separate from the operation of government. Use their communist ACLU against them for once instead of against our country.

So... we can't make predictions?
I was going to comment on this. However, it is so brainless that I'll just quote it instead. Seriously, who is this guy? He actually won a Pulizer?

"Predictions of catastrophe depend on models. Models depend on assumptions about complex planetary systems -- from ocean currents to cloud formation -- that no one fully understands. Which is why the models are inherently flawed and forever changing."

Communist Ecologists
You are an idiot! The conservative party needs to let go of it's communist stick banging. Communists aren't that important anymore. There aren't that many of them.

As far as the ecology goes. I guess you'd be satisfied with living in a completely polluted world, where fresh air was a thing of the past, and green trees are a comodity. You really want our nations children to grow up not caring about nature?

Socialist Swine
Socialists made up global warming which will allow them to take control and make everything fair. This whole thing reminds me of parents handing out candy equally to their children. THis is all about their hatred of capitalism and God. THey believe religion puts limits on their freedom and capitalism creates an oppressed class. THat's it. Same people new schtick. And oh, they are so much smarter than everybody else. Your stupid philosophy causes moral chaos and sends everyone into poverty.

doctorfixit's Carbon Belch Day
Just tell me where, shipmate.

Krauthammer understands the wackos
Krauthammer: “…it [global warming hysteria] also hugely re-empowers the intellectual left.”

That pretty much sums up the real motivation of the Left’s otherwise inexplicable hysteria and gross over-reaction to the questionable science on global warming.

Such fad causes are the Left’s way of usurping power, and they have two major things working for them: (1) sheep-like followers without the intellectual capacity or integrity to evaluate the real facts; and (2) they can deride dissenters as ‘mean’ or ‘uncaring’ for going against the ‘cause.’ What a racket.

If you consider CO2 to be a pollutant
You'd better stop respirating.
If the air you breathe is clean, thank a Green.

rights and privileges part 2/2
...

I am forced to pay for planes and trains, by the way, with my taxes even if I don't choose to ride them. There are huge federal subsidies for AMTRAK, and bailouts of airlines that should have been allowed to go bankrupt.

I agree roads are a legitimate function of government, and tolls and/or taxes on fuel are reasonable ways to pay for those roads. That has nothing to do with the Nanny State.

At this point we need to make a distinction between environmentalists like me, who believe in clean air and water for the benefit of mankind, and those who are using pseudo-environmentalism as club against the capitalism they’ve always hated. This article was clearly about the second category, and points out that this is where those who used to cheerlead for the USSR have found their home.

Now, your last paragraph I completely agree with – I hope those environmentalists who produce things like catalytic converters are make a huge profit, and I don’t begrudge them a cent – they are indeed capitalists, not communists.


For what it's worth, I wore my seatbelt all the way here, and I would have done so even if there was no law.

You have a great evening!

rights and privileges part 1/2
Junkyard Dog, in #249 you wrote that "...you are free to buy whatever you want in this nation..."

I refuted that statement by listing in #252 many categories of things that we are not free to buy.

Then in #265 you wrote "You are not being forced to buy anything by the government..."

In a limited sense this is true. In 266 I wrote "...IF I want to own and operate a car there's a very long list of things I'm forced to buy, like a license, insurance, seatbelts... some of those are appropriate for the government to force me to buy, but a lot aren't. To say that the government isn't forcing those purchases is silly, unless you meant by that that I can just take the bus to my job site 250 miles away tomorrow."


I do THINK (that’s the problem with you liberals - you feel about rights instead of thinking about them) that owning property is a basic right. See the 5th & 14th Amendments. Having that property provided to me is of course NOT a right - I have to pay for it myself.

Operating a vehicle is a privilege that should be regulated due to the potential to harm others (by wrecking or polluting), as I clearly implied in the previous quote.

I wasn't specific then, but I will be now: insurance, license, plates, and some pollution controls are appropriate for the government to force me to buy IF I want to operate a vehicle. Safety equipment for the occupants is not - I own myself, and it is my right to damage myself if I want. If your only argument against that is government shouldn't have to bear the medical cost of my mistake, I agree, it should be my cost.

CO2 isn’t a pollutant and should not be regulated by government.

Refute my eye.
Certain people must feel that owning an automobile is a basic right. You shouldn't have to own insurance, plates or basic safety equiptment. These are the same type of folks who refused to put shoes and saddles on their horses.
They want all the perks of Liberal invention without all the responsibility.
If your job is far away, tough cookies, get a horse. That's what we used to do but the nanny state included them too by requiring shoes.
The nanny state includes taking care of planes trains and automobiles, none of which you are forced to buy but are free to do so.
The nanny state haters love to point out its flaws while reaping the benefits.
No one is forcing you to buy anything.
However, if you want to drive on the nanny state's roads, you have to abide by the nanny state's rules and maybe even pay a toll.
Since the base argument is Environmentalists are Communists by extension, then I'll have to disagree.
The reason for this is that these "Commies" are making money hand over fist. They are making it for our country and its future. Eco-Folks are not giving it to the world for free.
They are selling it to the nations that are choking on the smog from the factories we sold them.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being environmentaly friendly.

If folks want to make or save a buck off of it, so what.
You are free to do that too.
Now go put some shoes on that ole horse.
It's a long ride to work tomorrow.

Glomal Warbling Party June 12
June 12 is Carbon Belch Day. Join the fun

- All day solo SUV parade around the park. Your SUV must get no better than 6 mpg to parade.

- Burn a bag of charcoal - meatless barbecue. One bag per entry.

- Cow Fart Lighting contest. Loudest explosion wins. Disqualifiation if cow dies.

- All day lawn-mower idling event.

- Fun facts. Did you know:
- an environmentalist creates a ton of CO2 each year by breathing?
- and environemtnalist, if burned, has enough energy to heat your home for 2 days?
- consuming corpses recycles their carbon, saves land, and does not create CO2 like cremation?

Nanny State
These same people who propose to act as surrogate mom and pops...who always know better...will eventually have a rebellious teen on their hands. It is just a matter of time. People will eventually get educated as to what the government is doing to them and hopefully, it will not be too late to boot them all out. Our government is actually circumventing the Constitution and our freedom in the guise of protecting the planet. Geology tells us that previously we had warming/cooling storms, earthquakes, floods, etc. but to hear our government tell it and our government's media cohorts, educators, etc. you would think that all of this was just happening today. Junk science has been implemented in schools, media, and perpetuated by an uneducated population. We have coal reserves that could be developed with the use of scubbers. We now can develop shale coal via sideways entrances that are actually environmentally friendly. We have oil off our coasts and in Anwr that could be developed and drilled in an environmentally friendly way. Our Congress has been inept, incompetent, irresponsible in protecting the USA citizen and our country. Nuclear, coal, oil, wind, thermal, methane, etc. all could be available now if our Congress had permitted development. Our Congress should be held accountable for the state we are in today. This new energy bill is a horrific non fix...it is unbelievable that anyone would even start down this road of dolling out energy credits. This is not the USA's way...this is an attack on our basic freedom...one of choice. Technology can produce energy in an environmentally friendly way if only our Congress and environmental communists would get out of the way....

Guess who's the arrogant one?
A real agnostic doesn't curse the opposition and plow ahead in the face of uncertainty.

Doublespeak
JD - nice turnaround - before you said we could buy anything. I refuted that and now you switch it to say I'm not being forced to by anything.

Well, if I want to own and operate a car there's a very long list of things I'm forced to buy, like a license, insurace, seatbelts, airbags, head and tail-lights, all kinds of additives to gasoline, etc etc etc. Now - some of those are appropriate for the government to force me to buy, but a lot aren't. To say that the government isn't forcing those purchases is silly, unless you meant by that that I can just take the bus to my job site 250 miles away tomorrow.


The rest of that post was not coherent enough to respond to.

Doublespeak indeed.
You are not being forced to buy anything by the government.
What the government is trying to enforce is the cost of morons.
I agree this is the nanniest of nannie states in the history of all nannie states.
You can put all the saftey labels you want on a spray can of ether, someone's going to blow it up.
The problem with our technological society is that it breeds a class of people that need saftey labels and have the time to read them.
The true cost of losing these people to stupid mistakes outweighs their net benefit to our society.
You can't teach them that life doesn't come with a warning label.
They used to show up at the doctor's office.
Nowadays they are showing up at the gas station.
Why didn't anyone warn them? Why does every semi driver have a gripe with people?
Is it because of public transportation?
Maybe it's all those dang hybrids hogging all the fuel.
They way I see it is that the nation is about to be held hostage by a bunch of fat dudes that visit their local truck stops on a regular basis.
That's Communist behavior.
The Community of Semis that Whine about Conservationists and the Price of Diesel at the same time.
Who'd a thought?

Sedition?
Could it be that the leaders of the "environmental movement" are actually foreign agent moles? If you were a Chinese or Russian agent tasked with subverting the US and stopping them from competing with you for resources, what better way could you possibly do it than by destroying our economy by environmental fiat?

right on, Karl!
Karl, exactly.

I knew AGW was a religion when they started offering indulgences. I mean carbon offsets.

"As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the tree from the dirt springs."

Somebody needs to nail 95 facts disputing AGW alarmism to Al Gore's door.

AGW Hypothesis not Falsifiable
The Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) hypothesis is not falsifiable. In other words, there is no physical experiment that you could run which will either prove or disprove that human CO2 emissions could be the cause of any climate change.

That means whether scientists all believe or disbelieve the AGW hypothesis, it is no more than an article of faith, i.e., religion. The non-establishment clause of the first amendment clearly states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”. If this clause is sufficient to ban prayer in public schools or keep the Ten Commandments out of courtroom lobbies, then it should be more than adequate to prevent any public policy regarding AGW, or most environmental issues.

The Ice Age is coming
Consult http://www.warwickhughes.com/agri/Solar_Arch_NY_Mar2_08.pd f who makes a good case for us entering a "little ice age" soon, and on the brink of a geological ice age. The article provides detailed analysis of carbon and temperature over time.

chris
The error you attributed to chicaree was mine. I stand corrected. Thanks.

MikeH: yeah, yeah. Bite me.

Reasonable Doubt
I am not saying that the skeptics in the professional scientific community are categorically correct. I just don't believe they can be arbitrarily and justifiably dismissed as "Quacks". Whenever anyone acts as if something is a "sacred cow" which cannot be questioned, I start getting that "creepy" feeling up my spine which makes me ask, "What are they afraid of"?

A little humility, please !
Since my own academic background is in European and Renaissance history, I do not, by any means, claim to be an expert in atmospheric science . . . even though I read a great deal about various sciences. However, I have been alive long enough to know that science is not stagnant. Isn't a little humility, from those on BOTH sides of this issue, called for?
It has been my impression that those who repeatedly scream, "the science is 'IN'", are those who simply cannot stand to have their own assumptions challenged. Why are they so defensive? I have personally read numerous essays and articles by highly-accomplished scientists . . . not quacks, but real scientists working for prestigious institutions . . . who have questioned the quasi-religious dogma that humans are the PRIMARY source of global warming. Many of the arguments of these scientists are also presented in the book, "The Deniers". They may be in the minority opinion, internationally, but they are not a "small" or "insignificant" number. There have been a series of news articles about the details of what actually went on, privately, among the participants in the U.N. Panel on Climate Change. Despite appearances to the contrary, it seems that the Panel's conclusions were anything but unanimous. Some scientists were, allegedly, pressured by their own host governments to compromise their own skepticism, for fear of losing their research funding. And, many of the participants were not scientists at all, or are not specialists in the various fields of atmospheric and oceanic science. An online search will easily reveal the news articles I mentioned.

Faith vs. DIO (Debate is Over)
The "debate is over" ends up being the "faith" card that the liberal human-haters throw down. Over a year ago my blog wrote of the "mirror-mirror" image of these two social issues, not just taking over the minds and behavior of our society, as totalitarianism, but as demand of behavior change through the prism of distortion.

There is not one scintilla of evidence to prove the existence of gorebal warming, much like there is not one scintilla of evidence to prove the existence of a god, any god.

While acknowledging each person's individual civil liberty to "believe" as he or she wishes, it inherently infringes on the civil liberties of others to impose those “beliefs”; make your personal choices and indulge in your beliefs at no cost to others - at a cost to others IS the infringement.

It is the irony of “environmenticals” playing the evangelicals game of “ignore the science, my feelings and personal experience trump all evidence to the contrary”.

Through a subjective view of life, the religious have created a rod at their own backs for which now is being utilized as a weapon of control, much like the religious have done with the weapon of the bible.

You’re agnostic and atheist to all other gods but your own; much like being agnostic to all other “models” proving that gorebal warming exists. Models depend on assumptions; the bible depends on assumptions.

Keep your assumptions to yourself.

Who’s minding your business while you’re so busy minding others.

positive feedback
trughes,

I agree about the methane from the Tundra. But we've had that positive feedback many times before the industrial age, followed by many ice ages, so there is obviously a negative feedback effect present as well. We'll be no more cooked than life has been in past cycles.


I agree that government regulation forced cleaner emissions - meaning less soot, CO, O3, NOx, etc. I believe that regulation is a legitimate function of government, because it prevents one party from harming another, which is what government is for.

I dispute:

- calling CO2 a pollutant.

- regulating CO2 as a pollutant.

- the claim that government regulation caused the higher-efficiency vehicles of today.

- that government has any place in mandating efficiency standards.

I think the market (people wanting to spend less on gas) has forced auto-makers to make more efficient cars. Toyota nailed that trend, while the big 3 were very late on it and have lost a huge chunk of market share for their mistake.

Chris - I will admit
that my "point" was buried in minor corrections to your statements. I just get so tired of people talking about cows.

But as far as Methane is concerned, the worst is yet to come in the form of off-gassing of methane from the Tundra. Then, we're cooked.

Yes, that will "follow" global warming but as a part of a "positive feedback" the blame should be placed where the warming started and I think that is with the fossil fuel Carbon that has been dumped into our atmosphere after being mined up out of it's precambrian grave.

The point I really wanted to make was that regulations have the major effect of forcing innovations. They do not just have the singular effect of reducing the emissions. Look at the leadership taken by Europe and Japan in environmentally clean automobile technology and wind generation of electricity. If every nation had the attitude: "We want to protect our automobile manufacturers from ever having to spend a dime on improvements." we would not have seen any of the technolgical improvements. It is the "fat and stupid" American car makers that kept making big cars after Reagan (Bush I?)rolled back the mileage requirements for SUV's, that has made the problem much worse.

Laws serve than single purpose.

Help for the Scientific Challenged
I don't know who I should believe more on global warming, a right wing Neocon conservitive, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration or the
American Meteorological Society.
After all, who has a political agenda to perpetuate?

http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/2007climatechange.html

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

Reply #229
"However, the earth has not been warmer than it is now for 120,000 years."

Surface Temperature Reconstructions For the Last 2,000 Years, The National Academies Press, 2006, Page 3.

"Very little confidence can assigned to statements concerning the hemispheric mean or global mean surface temperature prior to about A.D. 900 because of sparse data coverage and because the uncertainties associated with proxy data and the methods used to analyze and combine them are larger than during more recent time periods."

While temperature records are uncertain, there are studies of sites in both hemispheres where the tree lines have been carbon dated from remaining stumps closer to the poles and at other sites at higher altitudes within the last 10,000 years.

Also

B. L. Hall, ea (2006) “Holocene elephant seal distribution implies warmer-than-present climate in the Ross Sea” PNAS 103(27) 10213-10217

Abstract: “We show that southern elephant seal (Mirounga leonina) colonies existed proximate to the Ross Ice Shelf during the Holocene, well south of their core sub-Antarctic breeding and molting grounds. We propose that this was due to warming (including a previously unrecognized period from approximate to 1,100 to 2,300 C-14 yr B.P.) that decreased coastal sea ice and allowed penetration of warmer-than-present climate conditions into the Ross Embayment. If, as proposed in the literature, the ice shelf survived this period, it would have been exposed to environments substantially warmer than present.“

CO2 Has Followed Warming
There are studies of Greenland Ice Sheets which show the same. Here is one study of Antarctia

---
Indermuhle, A., Monnin, E., Stauffer, B. and Stocker, T.F. 2000. Atmospheric CO2 concentration from 60 to 20 kyr BP from the Taylor Dome ice core, Antarctica. Geophysical Research Letters 27: 735-738.

The authors obtained a high-resolution record of atmospheric CO2 concentration spanning the period from 60 to 20 thousand years before present from the Antarctic Taylor Dome ice core, after which they compared this CO2 history with a temperature history obtained from the Antarctic Vostok ice core.

Over the period of record, there were four distinct spikes in both the atmospheric CO2 concentration and air temperature histories, with temperature rising by approximately 2°C and CO2 concentration rising by about 20 ppm. One type of statistical test performed on the data by the authors suggested that the shifts in the air's CO2 content lagged those in the air's temperature by approximately 900 years. A second statistical test yielded a mean lag time of 1200 years; while a third such test, performed by Fischer et al. (1999) on data pertaining to early deglacial changes in the last three glacial-interglacial transitions, yielded a mean lag time of 600 years.


Doublespeak from Junkyard Dog
in #249 Junkyard Dog writes: "...I remember when they started the tailpipe tests and how everyone was doomed to a life of the EPA telling you how fast you could go..."

You do realize rural interstate speed limits were set to 55 a few years back solely to conserve gas, right? And that they want to put them down to 55 again? That was and is a legitimate concern about government intruding on my use of my property.


"Well take a look around smartypants. If we hadn't have invested in this cleaner more efficient technology 5 dollars a gallon for gas would crush this modern economy."

The advances in efficiency have come due to market forces, not government mandate. Whenever gas goes up, people sell their guzzlers and buy little toyotas or whatever. The CAFE standards haven't done jack squat.


"There is no "Communism" in Conservation.
As far as I know you are free to buy whatever you want in this nation, even deregulated Communist Chinese toys."

Can I buy leaded gas? How about unpasteurized milk? Codeine? Unflitered cigarettes? Wake up - we live in a Nanny state.

"There is nothing wrong with conservation. It takes a little time and investment to adapt but in the long run it's worth it."

True. What IS wrong is government forcing me to conserve. That would be tyranny, not freedom.

was there a point?
trughes - what was your point?

A few comments on #247:
"Look let's get one thing straight for the millionth time. Cows don't add to Carbon. All the carbon that they are made up of, belch out, or cause to be emitted in our breath after we eat them, CAME FROM THE ATMOSPHERE."

Yes, but it was in the atmosphere as CO2. Carbon that gets belched out is CH4 (Methane) which is supposedly a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. I'm not saying we should be concerned about it - I believe the climate will take care of itself. But that's what the alarmists are saying.


"...Yes, it's heavier than air, that has the effect of not leaving the atmosphere."

What? Once it's mixed in with the air, it doesn't matter how heavy it is.



In response to texaschuck's post #248: "...This was for the USA only" - we went over that already. Read the posts before you decide who's a member of the flat earth society.

To KM7
You wrote: "Scientific discussions on G warming will be
found by searching with "Google" ."

Thank you for the reply. I have done so. However I have limited time to sift through the clutter and find the pertinent information.

In any case I was not asking for my own edification only, since I am just one person out of millions who think about this issue. Any influence on the general public is going to come through the general public's source of information and my question is really a call for those sources to give us some pertinant information. Should it really be so hard for journalists to find the appropriate scientists, and should it be so hard for those scientists to identify the studies that demonstrate man caused global warming and then to explain those studies?

It's not Communism or rationing
I swear you folks will never get it. It's ok, but just realize your way of thinking became anachronistic well before they started putting EGR valves on internal combustion engines.
I remember when they started the tailpipe tests and how everyone was doomed to a life of the EPA telling you how fast you could go or how far you could drive.
Well take a look around smartypants. If we hadn't have invested in this cleaner more efficient technology 5 dollars a gallon for gas would crush this modern economy.
Compared to the lessons of the late 70's this next challenge is made much easier for our economy to deal with due to the inventions and actions of these so called "Communist" environmentalists.
I'd love to agree and say they want to regulate us to death but the evidence points to the contrary.
In the late 70's there were far fewer cars yet much more pollution. Sitting in a traffic jam amongst the anachronisms could kill you with the fumes alone, much less the lack of seatbelts, airbags and traction control.
These newer vehicles are the safest, cleanest and longest lasting. I don't need a study to read odometers.
There is no "Communism" in Conservation.
As far as I know you are free to buy whatever you want in this nation, even deregulated Communist Chinese toys.
There is nothing wrong with conservation. It takes a little time and investment to adapt but in the long run it's worth it.
If you don't believe me, look at your odometer. If you have over 100,000 miles you've traveled around the planet around four times.(Cars used to rarely make that milestone) How is that not freedom?

Not a clever post
1934 was recorded as the hottest. This little tidbit the flat earth folks always regurgitate leaves out the rest of the world in the calculation. This was for the USA only.We need mandatory science classes for TH posters and bloggers who don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Missing the point - Science not Fiction
The factual miasma surrounding global warming and carbon seems endemic to those who believe, the right wing believers in God, the literal truth of the Bible and in George Bush. But now Bush has thrown you over. The Denier in Chief has started to admit the evidence is overwhelming.

Look let's get one thing straight for the millionth time. Cows don't add to Carbon. All the carbon that they are made up of, belch out, or cause to be emitted in our breath after we eat them, CAME FROM THE ATMOSPHERE. (Okay fossil fuels used to grow the corn, and deforestation in the Amazon to produce more cattle are the exceptions - but that represents a very small part of burping.)

Mining the millions and millions of tons of Carbon that was present in the Atmosphere in the precambrian period. That's what we don't want to be returned to the atmosphere. Yes, it's heavier than air, that has the effect of not leaving the atmosphere.

Chris-you are not wrong about photosynthesis it is defined as taking in CO2 - but all plants to release Carbon dioxide at night. They have to respire just like us. So, loosely speaking the dark reactions are the opposite of the light reactions. But again, obviously plants, while green are net fixers.

The point of regulation is not strictly to limit emissions of C02 - but they also have the very powerful incentive effect to generate innovations which could, in unforseen ways, completely change the debate.



Chernobyl vs. Western Nukes
> Do you think we've learned nothing from Chernobyl

Anyone who imagines that Chernobyl has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with commercial nuclear power generation in The West is so utterly ignorant of all aspects of nuclear power that they should be shot for thinking they actually should be allowed to voice an opinion.

The Chernobyl design -- graphite moderation -- has never -- EVER -- been used or seriously considered for a commercial powerplant in The West. The technique -- the most primitive design ever used (the original Manhattan Project used it) was looked at in the 1950s, and, with the 1950s attitude towards radiation -- rejected as inadequately safeguarded.

Think about it: Another word for "graphite" is *charcoal*... What idiot would decide to use -charcoal- to surround a hot power core? Only in a place like the USSR would such an unsafe idea be utilized. And despite this idiotic design, it still took 25-odd years of inept training and poor responsibility to have a real accident happen. And the subsequent mess? Far less significant than anyone predicted at the time. Current estimates are that the STRESS of being "exposed" to Chernobyl has caused more harm than the actual accident itself has.

Myk's questions
I'll take #2 - the Antarctic Peninsula - the part that sticks out toward South America - has been warming and losing ice, but the entire main part of the continent has been gaining ice.

I've heard the same about #4, but haven't verified it. I doubt it's verifiable.

5 - absolutely true.

Questions

1. I have read of recent international field testing of all the world's ocean temperatures. The conclusions were that the temperatures had remained remarkably consistent over the past 10 years, with only a minuscule increase in some specific areas. If they are true, is it reasonable to conclude that a tiny increase in air and water temperatures, in and of themselves, would be enough to cause the massive polar melt that we are told is happening?
2. I have also read that, even though one side of the Antarctic ice shelf appears to be melting, the OTHER side of Antarctica has received an INCREASE in snowfall. Is this true?
3. On a number of Internet science websites, it has been stated that the ORBIT and the TILT of the Earth changes in approximately 20,000, 40,000 and 100,000 year cycles, and, that we are NOW in a part of that cycle when the Earth's orbit is in a closer circular pattern around the Sun, rather than the elliptical pattern that would exist in a different part of the cycle. If this is true, would that not affect a change in Earth's worldwide average temperature?
4. Although I do not know if this particular claim is true, I have heard it reported that the eruption of Mt. Pinataubo in the Philippines put more carbon into the atmosphere than all the motor vehicles of the last (20th) century. Is this true? To what extent have volcanic eruptions, in general, contributed to worldwide carbon emissions?
5. It has recently been reported that China has now surpassed the U.S.A. in its release of carbon emissions. Even if we continue to make improvements in clean-air technology, how will that make a difference in the GLOBAL carbon footprint if China and India continue to increase their own emissions?
I will look forward to the opinions of any scientific professionals.

Alternative Energy - Wind Power
Duluth News Tribune
Letters to the editor
December 2, 2007

According to the California Energy Commission, in 2004 the state’s 13,000 wind turbines produced 1.5 percent of California’s total electricity. If my math is correct, this means that only 866,665 turbines could supply all of California’s electricity needs.

Whew – That’s a bunch of turbines! At roughly one acre per unit, all these turbines would require about 1,355 square miles.

When the wind blows, it would appear wind turbines are only a partial answer to future electrical needs in California, or Minnesota.

more on unintended consequences
The reason these unintended consequences of regulating CO2 as a pollutant bother me is some powerful people who you would associate with the cause of limited government have this attitude that "AWG alarmists might be right, so let's limit CO2 emissions just in case."

limiting CO2 emissions is not an easy or cheap thing to do, and by doing it, we cause other bad things to happen, or reduce the amount of other good things that could have happened.

I think the ultimate answer will be fusion, but we're at least 40 years (maybe 100) away from that. We need fossil fuels in the meantime - although for transportation we should be developing either a hydrogen or electrical infrastructure so we can take advantage of fusion-powered electricity when it comes available.

unintended consequences
MikeH,

Wikipedia has a good summary under "Carbon capture and storage" in the "Environmental effects" section.

That particular example came to mind because I work around coal-fired power plants from time to time. I bet I could come up with a lot of other examples of environmentalists coming up with stupid rules that end up hurting the environment more than helping it.

Fire management in forests comes to mind.

Also, consider the whole concept that people take care of their own property, but the land no one "owns" suffers the "Tragedy of the Commons" as Garrett Hardin put it.

Their own evidence
The hottest year on record? According to them 1998 or 2003; according to NASA 1934.

The ice core samples show a correlation between CO2 and temperature; but close examination shows that CO2 is the LAGGING variable, and thus cannot be casual.

Al Gore's hockey stick is just fraud.

The Snows of Kilamanjaro are melting due to a lack of moisture, not high temperature.

What exactly is their "evidence" again?

Extrapolations
The temperature where I live has increased by about 100 degrees over the course of the last 6 months. If this warming trend continues, the area will be uninhabitable by October.

Whatever shall I do?

Chris
"We generate a lot of electricity, CO2, and pollutants such as murcury, selenium, and NOx by burning coal. The AGW alarmists would have us sequester or otherwise reduce CO2 emissions from coal plants. This requires burning at least 15% (I think more like 40%) more coal to deliver the same amount of electrical power, with the remaining power used to separate and sequester the CO2. That means we have to deal with 15-40% more real pollutants in order to get rid of CO2."

That's interesting. I'm going to have to look into that. If you know of anyplace I can look for information on this, please send me the link.

Chad Man
I know of no photosythesis where oxygen is taken in and carbon dioxide is produced. Both light-dependent and light-independent reactions capture CO2 and produce O2.

Chris, I'm glad that you corrected his assertion on the settling of CO2 and O3. If he was right, we'd be trying to live in a 100 foot blanket of carbon dioxide. I don't think we would last very long.

correcting factual errors
Chicaree, CO2 comprises between 0.03% and 0.04% of our atmosphere, not 3%.

Cad Man, once gasses are mixed, they DO NOT stratify or settle based on molecular weight. See post #51 for more on that.


The ozone layer is there because that's where the atmosphere becomes substantial enough to get in the way of the high energy radiation which converts O2 to O3. Ozone concentrations are a probabalistic curve because higher up there's not enough air to stop the radiation, and lower down most of that radiation has already been stopped.

Ozone is unstable and naturally breaks down, but is replenished by radiation.


Methane given off by ungulates is mostly from belching, not farting. Of course, the alarmists' response to this is that we who eat meat and drink are causing global warming by causing more cattle to be raised, which belch methane before hitting the slaughterhouse.

The largest component of the greenhouse effect in our atmosphere is water vapor.

Jerubaub
Your argument that overpopulation causes poverty doesn't hold up. How do you explain that the island nation of Japan has one of the most dense populations per square mile on earth, yet it is one of the wealthiest nations on earth?

India and China have large populations, but their populations are spread over vast distances, and they have not engaged in market economics. Where the market is left unimpeded, the greater a nations population, the greater its ability to produce goods from raw materials, and the greater its wealth.

Carbon hysteria
All this hysteria about carbon is just that: hysteria. Carbon dioxide is too heavy to be a greenhouse gas; heavier than air and settles to earth (ozone is even heavier so the "ozone layer" is also a myth). It is interesting to note that the envirowackos carefully avoid any mention of the process of photosynthesis that is common to plant life. During the day plants breathe in CO2 and give off oxygen; at night the "dark side" (pun intended) takes place: in the absence of sunlight plants breathe in oxygen and give off CO2 -- in gigantic quantities.

If there is any greenhouse gas containing carbon it is methane; it occurs naturally -- hence the name "natural gas" -- as well as being produced in nominal amounts by landfills. But massive quantities are given off by flatulent animals, both wild and domestic. A person can conserve in order to minimize one's carbon footprint but a few caribou in Canada will flatulate and undo that conservation.

On the prospect of an environmental dictatorship, Krauthammer is on the mark; the "no nukes" mantra is evidence of that.



LobaAzul
"Nobody is denying "climate change". The climate changes every freakin' day."

I love when someone shows immense ignorance in the first part of their post. Weather changes everyday, but climate is the average weather of a region over time. Now, ignorance is no crime. But this person goes on to make statements ("CO2 is a necessary greenhouse gas. It comprises only 3% of the atmosphere and any "contributions" from humans to its increase would be miniscule," "It's the predictions of dire consequences that are bogus," etc) that they would have to have a full understanding of climate science to make.

If you'll notice that in my posts, though I have debated others, I have never stated a belief in AGW. And, that is quite simply because I have not studied it enough to know.

responses to MikeH in #229
"...I would like to know why you say limiting it is counterproductive to reducing other pollutants."

We generate a lot of electricity, CO2, and pollutants such as murcury, selenium, and NOx by burning coal. The AGW alarmists would have us sequester or otherwise reduce CO2 emissions from coal plants. This requires burning at least 15% (I think more like 40%) more coal to deliver the same amount of electrical power, with the remaining power used to separate and sequester the CO2. That means we have to deal with 15-40% more real pollutants in order to get rid of CO2.

Also, diverting resources needed to reduce CO2 emissions in general means less resources to pay for pollution mitigation equipment, mosquito nets, or whatever.


"6. CO2 is more an effect of than a cause for GW... Cause and effect are not easy things to prove..."

Agreed - confusing causation and correlation is one of the most common mistakes in science. My support is that atmospheric CO2 levels correlate with, but lag, temperature levels.


"...However, the earth has not been warmer than it is now for 120,000 years."

Retreating glaciers in Greenland and the Alps have uncovered the remains of human activity 1000 and 5000 years old. I think it's been very warm very recently.

Lepers
Funny you should mention leprosy. One of our research models is the armadillo. It is a natural reservoir for leprosy, so don't get bent out of shape when you see Floridians eradicating these little tanks with tails.

Hansen's Disease (aka leprosy) is actually quite treatable early on. It's not a general degenerative disease as you may assume. It goes after the nerve endings first. The victim can have an injury that quickly becomes infected, especially at the extremities. That's why you see lepers in advanced stages of Hansen's with fingers and toes missing.

Part of their all day regimen is the VSE (visual surveillance of extremities). They are taught to constantly check their hands and feet for any injury. With no pain to alert them they can easily pick up a mild infection that can go untreated and the result can be rather frightening.

I forgot the course of meds used, but I saw a doc on young Americans who went eco-touring in the Third World and picked it up. One sixteen year old girl was clad in a very minimal bikini and there was no sign of injury or disfigurement. She was diagnosed very quickly and put of a course of treatment. As far as I know she's had no recurrance.

Air travel has been a bane to disease control for decades. Once people spent almost 10 days on a slow moving tub to get here. Then they were examined and quarantined. Now they scatter like mice on our shores.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

chicaree
Nobody is denying "climate change". The climate changes every freakin' day. It's the predictions of dire consequences that are bogus. The last time the earth warmed significantly, people, animals, and plants flourished.

Do you think we've learned nothing from Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island? When was the last time you heard of a nuclear power plant disaster?

I don't know how accurate this report is but it says what the current thinking is on the correlation between temperature and CO2 levels: "Temperature changes precede changes in atmospheric carbon dioxide. Scientists have found carbon dioxide levels typically rise roughly 200 to 1,000 years after temperatures rise."

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=22787

Not only that, but according to many reports (do your own homework)temperatures have remained steady since around 2000.

CO2 is a necessary greenhouse gas. It comprises only 3% of the atmosphere and any "contributions" from humans to its increase would be miniscule.

Get a clue, kiddo. "Climate Change" (la dee freakin' dah) or more accurately, the Global Warming Hoax is about wealth envy and punishing the productive rich.

Science is about observable phenomena, not about inadequate computer model predictions.

chris
"5. We need to limit emmissions of actual pollutants, and limiting CO2 is counterproductive to that effort."

Again, CO2 is an actual pollutant. However, I would like to know why you say limiting it is counterproductive to reducing other pollutants.

"6. CO2 is more an effect of than a cause for GW."

I don't know where got the information to make this statement. Cause and effect are not easy things to prove, so I would like to see how you can make that statement.

"7. There is no single ideal temp for the earth."

I would agree with that. However, wouldn't there be parameters beyond which human life could not exist?

"8. The earth has been much warmer, with much higher sea levels in the past."

I agree. However, the earth has not been warmer than it is now for 120,000 years. Humans would not have been around that long and I don't know how it would have affected them then. You may be right in thinking that global warming will not be a problem, but I would like to be sure before deciding not to do anything.

chris
"More important points, in no particular order:

1. GW is due to a natural cycle."

There's no question that the earth has been hotter and cooler in the past. The rise in temperatures we see right now could be due to a natural cycle, but to state definitively that it is requires us to know (1) what caused the climate changes in the past and (2) that there is evidence those causes are in effect today.

"2. There's nothing we can do about it."

This may be true. Even some people that subscribe to the idea that global warming is man-made say that it is close to being, if not already, irrevocable.

"3. We have more pressing problems (Malaria...)"

We could set orders of magnitude for problems, but I don't really want to start down that road. Besides you don't have to solve one problem before working on another.

"4. CO2 is not a pollutant."

This is false. Anything can be a pollutant if too much of it produces an imbalance in a normal environment that results in harm. Wikipedia points out that water and noise can be considered pollutants.

Article is Spot On
After reading this column, I remembered a book I read in the late '90s entitled, "The Planned Destruction of America." The premise of the book was that a radical environmentalism movement was planned in order to a)unite the American people behind a common cause; b)get us out of our vehicles in order to c)gain complete control over the American people, and d)form a world government headed by the UN.

I think I'll go re-read this book.

to MikeH
in #160 MikeH writes: "... for the USA ... (global average) ... Can you spot the difference?"

You caught me...

Actually, what happened was when I wrote the first post I was thinking the data that had been revised was for global temperatures. Then during my brief research for the next post I realized it was USA temperatures only, and not global.

It was not a premeditated bait-and-switch.

However, I still think my point is valid, which is that we're looking at noise, and the compilation of the measurements is somewhat subjective.

More important points, in no particular order:

1. GW is due to a natural cycle.

2. There's nothing we can do about it.

3. We have more pressing problems (Malaria...)

4. CO2 is not a pollutant.

5. We need to limit emmissions of actual pollutants, and limiting CO2 is counterproductive to that effort.

6. CO2 is more an effect of than a cause for GW.

7. There is no single ideal temp for the earth.

8. The earth has been much warmer, with much higher sea levels in the past.

etc.

Anti
Due to this out of control Tree Hugging and all these lies regarding global warming, I am declaring myself Anti-Environment! I will not contribute to this Green Peace BS no matter what. I will not support anyone who marches to this Global Warming, (the sky is falling) propoganda regardless who is spewing it from their mouths. I refuse to recycle, i will drive a large vehicle, and will not turn off my A/C! I will cut trees whenever I see the need and kill stray cats anytime they cause me a problem.I absolutely will not conform to this tripe!

Eat your veggies!
It is my belief, and it's been proven, that plants take in CO2 and release oxygen. What about the carbon? That goes into the plant, such as yummy vegetables. Sooo...we grow plants, eat the veggies, and send all that nasty carbon down the drain. With tongue-in-cheek, I'll make this parting comment, "Your mom was right long before the environmentalists took over."

For Jerabaub
The biggest momentum to world overpopulation and danger to Western democracy is not Mexican overpopulation or African overpopulation or Chinese overpopulation, it is Mulim overpopulation. They are moving into Europe and producing more children than the natives of the European Union. They publicly say that they will one day having the majority voting power and then they will vote out Western civilization, using our own tools against us, and vote in Sharia law. Do you think you can convince the Muslims, using rational arguments, to limit the size of their families? I thought so.

TexasChuck re your statment #204
"Scientists always have doubt" thats the problem many climatologists doubt GW is anything other than a natural cycle. To spend trillions of dollars and restrict fundamental freedoms on the basis of the science stated is pure insanity. We might as well commit national suicide.

On global warming, it’s McCain v. GOP

Politico-John McCain’s tempestuous relationship with his own party will be on full display when the Senate dives into a major global warming debate next week.

The question facing Senate Republicans: Are they ready to embrace their presidential nominee’s more liberal ideas for climate change ideas like a cap-and-trade system, or will they stick to the conservative, hands-off approach to global warming backed by President Bush?

It’s a debate that may very well divide Senate Republicans and show voters yet another fissure in an already beleaguered party. Democrats don’t seem eager to offer a smooth path toward any bipartisan compromise that would give McCain political cover on the issue, and a key procedural vote has already been scheduled for June 2.

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/on-global-warming- its-mccain-v-gop

It's About Controlling You
It has been a major propaganda coup to turn a naturally occuring trace atmospheric gas necessary for life into a "pollutant." Virtually every human activity generates CO2, therefore a dogma that says government must license, ration, & restrict CO2 requires that government involve itself in EVERY aspect of our lives & economy.

Wouldn't it be at least reasonable to require ANY ostensible measure to control ACO2ICC meet objective scientific demonstrations a standard of proof of effectiveness? Instead, the elite, including John McCain, want to rush headlong into rationing schemes regardless. They consider taxes & rationing good per se, a deeply worrisome but unsurprising develoment.

Consider: all products of heavy industry would end up being imported from China & India while we push papers & flip (veggie)burgers. If you think 'our leaders' would actually sanction them for failing to rein in CO2 emissions, I have a bridge to sell you. Why are China & India given passes instead of being encouraged to develop "sustainably" to begin with?

Consider: make commuting cumbersome & expensive & people will be forced to live near their workplaces, or wherever the elite deign to run mass transit.

Consider: it would be expensive & cumbersome for people to select residences based on quality local schools, and for people to take their children to other schools than those assigned to them by the educracy.

Consider: meat would be expensive/restricted, as meat is associated w/ CO2 & methane.

Consider: members of victim groups & other groups & institutions favored by the elite would on some pretext be given extra rations free. Those who don't toe the party line would have to scrounge for carbon rations to operate.

I'm sure 1000's of other examples will come to mind.

K. vitiates the free market
As I keep telling town hall, the free market doesn't work the way the theory is laid out. K provides an analysis about global warming that is analagous to the critique I make about the free market.

K. starts off his analysis of global warming with a discussion of all the various forces, events and circumstances that merge to influence climate and notes that it is highly improbable that all things will happen at the same time the way they are supposed to to produce man-made global warming.

I make the same argument about the free market. It is highly unlikely that all the forces pronounced by free market theorists will happen just as they say they will happen. Impossible, really.

Thus, when K., later in his article moves to praise the free market we see an inconsistency in his reasoning and have cause to doubt his total presentation.

Also, of note, is that he mentions a slight lifting of socialism in China and the subsequent improvement in the economy. But what this results in is a "Welfare State" just like the United States. American and China both have Welfare States. We've just approached that position from opposite ideologies.

And, finally, K. resorts to rhetorical trickery in comparing Communism and Environmentalism. Honest conservatives should be outraged and ashamed at such trickery.

Ticket toTotalitarianism
I am sitting in my house, located some 110 miles inland from the ocean, at an elevation of 500 feet. When I step outside, in every bare spot, I see sand. Reddish sand, & patches of sand so clean & white I can scoop some up & mix it into concrete.

Why?

Anout 1/2 million yrs ago, this was the shore. The ocean came this far up & inland.

I have it on good authority there was not one SUV or coal-fired generating plant on earth then.

Climate change happens. It is natural & inevitable, as are variations in CO2 levels. Krauthammer is saying something I'd observed even before I heard Rush Limbaugh saying it: modern 'environmentalism' is the new communism, a green communism to replace Marx' classical red communism.

Communism was never implemented to solve the alleged problems it ostensibly addressed (e.g. labor exploitation) but as a way to rationalize totalitarianism for its own sake. Like Marxism, green communism focuses on destroying private property, free enterprise, and individual freedom & dignity while not concerning itself, once in place, with whether it actually benefits anything other than the ruling elite.

The anthrogenic CO2 induced climate change (ACO2ICC) doctrine is probably the most apt vehicle for justifying totalitarianism I've ever seen. It's hard to imagine any leftist agenda ACO2ICC dogma can't support, & I suspect a good many 'warmies' are actually motivated by the prospect of controlling others in some issue separate from "climate." One such agenda is the attack on the American standard of living on various pretexts.

This is
This is what the second amendment is for.

Philosophical Questions
I enjoyed browsing the debate between MikeH and Chris et al., and I'm greatly encouraged by the deep knowledge of the scientific details exhibited therein.

But you're missing the more important philosophical questions, such as:

1) What is man's relationship to nature? Is man a part of nature or above nature?
2) Why should man morally oblige himself to nature, i.e. "zero impact man" v. "good steward man"; do you see that the former requires man to elevate nature's good above his own while the latter requires him to manage his activities wisely to enhance his own good along with nature's good?
3) Since man cannot precisely know what his impact on the global climate has been or will be, is it good stewardship to surrender man's liberty and prosperity to government in a Pyrrhic crusade to control the global climate?
4) What is the optimal global climate for nature? What is the optimal global climate for man? If it turns out that the answer to the first question is "any climate", then why shouldn't man shoot for a global climate that is best for man, i.e. a global climate that is warmer than the present one?

These questions continue along in this vein. I'd like to see the big brains debate these questions rather than the minutia of the largely speculative AGW science.

who's doing the politicizing?
The right is challenging the validity of claims made by others.

The left (including our illustrious nominee, McCain) is trying to use government to regulate a natural byproduct of life by calling it a pollutant.

In other words, they are attempting to take the property of CO2 emmitters by force.

As Dr. Walter says, if anyone other than the government tried that, they'd be in jail for aggrevated assault and armed robbery.

So who's politicizing global warming?

Environmental atheism
Global warming "theory" is nothing but a system of arbitrary claims (made without regard to objective evidence). It should be dismissed from discussion out of hand. No concession should be made to it whatsoever. We should allow the development of nuclear power because we support free market principles, not out of consideration for the possibility of global warming's "truth" (what truth can an idea formed without regard to objective reality possibly possess?).

It was never a product of intellectual honesty; it is simply the latest Communist propaganda effort. It is motivated not by concern for our or the Earth's (?!) long-term well-being. It is motivated by hatred of man. Your first clue should have been that it demands de-industrialization. (Think of what that would mean for YOUR life). The environmentalists are concerned with nothing else. They promote nothing else. Their entire goal was to get people like Mr. Krauthammer to agree that at least MAYBE there is a threat to the environment. Then, there would be no defense left against the gradual implementation of their agenda: Regulating energy out of existence and chaining the hated human "consumers." Agnosticism on this issue will mean death for actual human beings.

The self-hatred, malevolence, and pessimism that rule the leftist mind are so radically alien from the conservative mind, that it is difficult for conservatives to see and believe that that is what motivates them. The left hate themselves and their fellow man and want to see them die off. If you don't believe me, start baiting an environmentalist the next time you deal with one, and eventually, it will get so angry it will start sputtering about how people are a plague on this earth that should be cured.

pb
:-)

Although
I would add that it's the right-wing that's doing most of the politicizing by ignoring the science they don't like.

Pseudo-science & the politics of fear
First, I am impressed with many of the commenters here. Many rational and excellent points are being made.

Dr. Krauthammer has once again delivered a spot on analysis. His point about computer models is especially important for people to understand -- that is, data can easily be manipulated to reach a predetermined conclusion. This means many studies are political exercises and have nothing to do with empirical science.

Besides the intrinsic harm this disinformation causes, Al Gore and his global warming cultists are giving science a bad name.

To SunThe1, 1:11
(and SunThe1 only):

Fair enough.

Pseudo-science & the politics of fear
First, I am impressed with many of the commenters here. Many rational and excellent points are being made.

Dr. Krauthammer has once again delivered a spot on analysis. His point about computer models is especially important for people to understand -- that is, data can easily be manipulated to reach a predetermined conclusion. This means many studies are political exercises and have nothing to do with empirical science.

Besides the intrinsic harm this disinformation causes, Al Gore and his global warming cultists are giving science a bad name.

pb
Is immortal and idiotic synonymous?

North Coast Conservative
see post #121 by Vic, and surrounding posts.

There's lots of people who've been saying the same thing, observing that increasing CO2 levels follow increasing temperatures.


One other observation - all these fossil fuels we're burning were at one time living things, which got their CO2 from the atmosphere (or by eating things that got it from the atmosphere). So we're just putting it back the way it was originally.

mountains of data
in #197 texaschuck writes: "... The world scientific community has issued mountains of data that global warming is real. The problem is the right does not like the messsengers"

"like" has nothing to do with it. I just think the "messengers" are full of solid horse excrement - some honestly mistaken and others for fraudulant profit.

Scientists don't get government grants by saying "yeah, the earth's temperature is moving around a bit like it always has, and it's no big deal. And if it was there's nothing we can do about it anyway. Let's try curing cancer or eliminating Malaria instead." No, they get blackballed by their peers who think they should be in jail for daring to challenge orthodoxy.

So much for the scientific method.

Just remember, the concensus by 100% of physicists in 1904 was that Newton's laws of motion presented in 1687 were correct, proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by countless expirements. One guy blew all that away.

And the AWG alarmists have nowhere near the consensus they did.

A little technical help here?
I majored in chemistry (many, many moons ago) and have worked as a mechanical engineer for the past 26 years. My memory of chemistry ends with stochiometry. So, any practicing chemists please jump in. I have one major fly-in-the-ointment with man-made affectations to atmospheric CO2 levels.

From my memory, if you warm water (think of Earth's vast oceans or a glass of water for Pete's sake - those bubbles on the walls of your glass) CO2 is driven out of solution.

I have read numerous articles on solar irradiance. It seems the solar irradiance hit a crescendo in the late 1990s.

Does it not seem entirely plausible that if solar output has been rising (for the past 200 years) that the oceans have warmed, driving CO2 in solution into the atmosphere?

I was most definitely not in the top of my class, and I really find it entirely beyond my comprehension to believe this has not occurred to anyone else as the cause of rising atmospheric CO2.

Please comment. This has been making me nuts.

Scientists always have doubt
Thats their job.I'm not a scientist and neither is Krauthammer,Al Gore,Rush Limbaugh or so called experts who publish their opinions without a peer review.After Bush is out in 2009 let's hear from all and decide who is a closer or a poser.

Fake McCain
in #193 odin writes: "McCain is 71 and yet there is no evidence of him being fake."

How about "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States ... and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same."

followed by McCain-Feingold which is a "law ... abridging the freedom of speech."

I'm with you on your opinion of Obama, though.


Bob Barr 2008. Or Chuck Baldwin. Whatever.

Mrs. Paddy
You wrote : "Very reminiscent of Nazi Germany where you had to have 'papers' to travel, eh?"

Wow! You were THERE?

You wrote: "Time to find out who among us feels the same as the man who said (you DO recognize this quote, I hope) 'Give me liberty or give me death'"

And THERE, too?

And here I thought I was the only Immortal now living on the North American continent!

Wrat Wrangler: Question for you...

Are you also working on a cure for leprosy since they've found SEVERAL (yeah, illegals) in LA with leprosy.

Some hope
There is some upside to working where the air can kill you if you don't breath through a HEPA filter. One investigator at our college had made a giant leap in fighting resistant bacteria.

What makes them resistant is a "shell" they form around themselves. Antibiotic toxins can't penetrate. He found a "friendly pathogen" that eats holes in that shell and lets the toxins through. Bye bye bugs.

Of course if we didn't INVITE half the Third World to fly in every year we'd have a better chance against these strains.

By the way Ebola Reston in only fatal to lower primates like Rhesus monkeys or common macaques, so far. Fortunately the research facility in Reston, VA was close enough to Ft. Detrick and USAMRIID that they were able to respond. Nice to see they could handle a BL-4 minor outbreak. I only go up to BL-3 and I am not entirely comfortable there. The spacesuit looks cool but it gets real old after about 10 minutes.

Had the Reston strain of Ebola BEEN pathogenic in humans AND airborne we'd have come closer to Andromeda than anyone would like to think about. One reason Bio-Warfare study has been scaled down to the study of what some other maniac may be developing and the best means to defend against it. Over 30 years ago the real meaning of the Andromeda Scenario finally sank into some fairly thick skulls in Foggy Bottom.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

To TexasChuck
Go find the late Dr. Richard P Feynman's essay "Cargo Cult Science" and study it carefully.
Science fact is determined by a scientist doing a study and publishing the results. Other scientists then seek to duplicate the study and if they get the same results often enough it eventually becomes accepted as fact.

Much of climate studies is made up of statistical studies of data which is not supposed to be archived until the study is published. Look up the Hockey Stick controversy and the report of Dr. Edward Wegman's report on the statistics of the subject. Look further and you will see that some of the data behind some of the famous climate studies were never archived and can't be because the data no longer exists. Make an honest search and you will see there are many respected scientists that have serious doubts about the importance of CO2 in the current situation.

Sure some additional warming can be attributed to human activities. However, that most of the climate in the last thousand years is just natural climate variability has not been falsified.


To paraphrase Mr. Twain. If you don't listen to the media, you are uninformed. If you listen to the media, you are misinformed.

This topic is too important to just blindly accept what you hear in the media as scientific fact.

CO2
That climate models agree on CO2 & AGW means exactly what? Not a lot unless valid real world observations show the models output are valid. There are not even current validation and verification standards to establish that the models accurately reflect current scientific knowledge. Dr. Krauthammer is correct that many of the known climate forces are poorly understood. Some are currently not under study. The dire predictions on CO2 increase depend on CO2 causing a far greater increase in water vapor near the surface... more than can currently be demonstrated.

To say that "the science is settled" is to stick a finger firmly in each ear and declare "I am not going to listed to anything you say" on one hand and an attempt to silence debate through intimidation on the other.

Greenland and Antarctic ice cores indicate that over the last several hundred thousand years CO2 levels have gone up AFTER temperatures have increased and caused a further degree of more warming and not that CO2 levels go up and then the temperatures have gone up a lot.

Was the climate stable for a thousand or more years before the industrial revolution? NO!

Is it warmer now than it has been in 400 years? Probably. It was abnormally cold then... whatever that means.

Is it likely that man can create and maintain a comfortable and stable climate by regulating a minor and essential trace gas? I seriously doubt it.

Not too many years ago scientists were worried that the 28 thousandths of 1% of the earth's atmosphere that was comprised of CO2 would become even lower. After all, how little atmospheric CO2 can their be and still support the plant life we all depend on for the air we breath and the food we eat either directly or through the animals we eat with increasing populations. Many food and other plants seem to be more productive with increased CO2 levels. This may not be such a bad thing.






The debate is over it's what to do.
The world scientific community has issued mountains of data that global warming is real. The problem is the right does not like the messsengers. With either McCain or Obama a real debate will happen and it will involve how much or how little to do.Those who deny it will be left behind and treated like the imbeciles they have become.Even the big oil comapnies are dumping their paid flaks who denied everything.

Taft
You are right.We shouldn't borrow money from the Chinese Communists.We should do like Clinton.Sell nuclear secrets to them for campaign cash.Why don't you ever talk about Billy and his sins? No,Bush-hatred has you and all the lefties so blind you can see nothing beyond that.


Wrat Wrangler
No, I think I'll pass, I've read the Hot Zone and several others of the same subject. I really meant no offense by "hands on".

Wrat Wrangler: HOLD THAT THOUGHT!!!

No doubt there will soon be another "ILLEGAL Invasion" column where this information will be useful!

".... airborne drug resistant critters like new strains of TB and now some charming desk jockey at Homeland Security has us working to find better defenses against Anthrax."

And daft....
Note, that's STRAINS... as in more than one strain.

And, tuberculosis was declared "eradicated" in the US in 1963, and all the TB sanitariums were closed.

Here we go again!

Judging Obama
McCain is 71 and yet there is no evidence of him being fake. Have you heard of the phrase 'Birds of a feather flock together', you judge Obama based on his voting record and the associations he has, if you concede that Obama is 'only' 47, then you are conceding that he is inexperienced, that is even more a reason not to vote for him.

Temperature
Here are two simple questions that need to be asked of the global warming crowd. If in fact the globe is warming, what then is the ideal temperature? And who determines what that number is?

The earth has been going through periods of very warm eras, and cold periods as seen in the many ice ages. Who is to say what is the ideal temperature. Gore said the plant is experiencing a "fever", well, then what is the optimum temperature for this patient?

I'm not a "suit" anymore
Taft,

I USED to be a "suit" but now I''m hands on. If you SAW where my hands go you'd run home and take several showers and burn your clothes. I'm a tech in medical research. My college is in the top 1% worldwide in academic standing. I have to deal with HIV, airborne drug resistant critters like new strains of TB and now some charming desk jockey at Homeland Security has us working to find better defenses against Anthrax. Like to trade? The pay blows also compared to a lawyer or even a surgical nurse.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

daft writes: " all I read was the title.
That was all I needed to know the guy is a fool."

Really? Spoken just like someone who is content to be truly ignorant and uninformed.

See, daft, perhaps if you actually READ what Krauthammer had to say, you might just learn something. Whoa, what a novel idea is THAT!

But no, of course not. You're a typical limited liberal who just believes what you want to believe and ignore reading anything that might just open your brain.....

Actually, now that I think of it, clearly YOU are the FOOL, not Krauthammer!