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Tuesday, August 26, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
On Shooting Taggers: Why Conservatives and Liberals Differ
by Dennis Prager
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Earlier this month Andrew Sullivan, a well-known writer, once in the center, now on the left, nominated me for what is apparently his lowest badge of distinction for defending citizens who shoot to wound graffiti vandals, or "taggers," while committing their vandalism.

Under the heading, "Malkin Award Nominee," Sullivan provides a quote from my radio show:

"'So you will now say -- I hear the voice of an ACLU member -- 'Dennis, do you think that this guy should have shot these people spray painting graffiti on his shop?' To which my answer is yes. I do. Not to kill. Not to kill. But if he shot them in the legs or in the arms I would have considered the man one of the great advancers of civilization in my time. And that is what divides left from right. Because anybody on the left hearing this would think that this is barbaric whereas I consider not stopping these people in any way that is necessary to be barbaric.' -- Dennis Prager, on his radio show."

Mr. Sullivan provides no commentary because, as I predicted in the excerpt he cites, what I said is so obviously morally offensive to him, no commentary is necessary. It is self-indicting.

To those on the left.

Their differing reactions to graffiti vandals further clarify the philosophical differences between liberals and conservatives.

Reactions to graffiti on the cultural left -- not necessarily the political left, since liberal politicians must respond to public outrage or they are not re-elected -- have generally ranged from support to indifference.

Many on the left have long described graffiti as "urban art" and graffiti vandals as "artists." Even when not admired or even defended, most liberals regard graffiti in far less negative ways than do conservatives. Conservatives tend to regard graffiti as an assault on society, perpetrated by pathologically narcissistic lowlifes bent on undermining the foundations of higher civilization.

To personalize this for a moment, while I assume that graffiti troubles Sullivan, I strongly doubt it troubles him nearly as much as it troubles me. If it did, the odds are he would not be a man of the left.

Why are so many on the left not as angered by graffiti as most conservatives are? I would like to offer some possible reasons:

One is that liberals find it difficult to condemn the poor, especially poor members of ethnic and racial minorities. If rich white kids spray painted their names on university buildings, there would probably be a liberal outcry.

A second reason is that crimes against property tend to disturb the left less than the right, especially when "no one is hurt"; and graffiti is deemed by many liberals as a classic example of no one being hurt. That is why I suspect that most people on the left would express greater anger toward someone who lit up a cigarette in a mall or a restaurant than toward an inner city kid who spray painted his initials on neighborhood walls and signs.

A third reason is that conservatives tend to view higher civilization as more fragile than the left views it. Conservatives believe the line between civilization and barbarism is under constant assault and is not necessarily enduring. That is one reason the right tends to have a higher regard for the police than does the left. Conservatives see the police as "the thin blue line" that separates civilization from barbarians.

So, it is natural that conservatives would see graffiti as vandalism, as an undermining of the very notion of higher civilization, as a public scorning of the common good, as essentially an "F---- you" to society.

Liberals are far more inclined to see graffiti as a mere nuisance, or even as an example of the downtrodden trying to have a voice in a civilization that oppresses young people who are usually members of historically oppressed minorities.

To the conservative, graffiti is an assault on civilization; to the liberal, graffiti is the result of civilization's assault on those who paint the graffiti.

For those who share Sullivan's political and social values, the notion that someone would defend a man who shot and wounded graffiti vandals defacing his property is worthy of derision. Sullivan is so sure his readers have contempt for such a view that he felt it unnecessary to offer a word of commentary on what I said.

That is unfortunate. I would be interested to know how Sullivan regards taggers and what he would suggest be done to them if caught in the act of defacing property. Since most people suspect that calling the police would achieve little, if anything, what should be done?

My first wish is that taggers be arrested and punished. I also wish for world peace and a cure for cancer. But the real-life choice is almost always between taggers getting away with their vandalism and an irate citizen taking action. Given the destructive nature of tagging -- the moment one sees graffiti, one knows one has entered a largely lawless and violent environment where thugs terrorize innocents -- I prefer something, even if violent, rather than nothing be done.

I have no desire to see a graffiti vandal killed -- my position has always been that only those who cause death deserve death (that is why I oppose the death penalty for any crime except murder). But if enough taggers are wounded, their assault on civilization will decline dramatically. And if one accidentally dies? That would be a tragedy. But here is the bottom line: More innocent people will die if tagging is not stopped than if it is. Graffiti unchecked leads to worse crime.

Those who deface private and public property are not otherwise decent kids who are oppressed and not allowed any other form of self-expression. My sense is that the vast majority of graffiti vandals are headed toward, if not already involved in, a life of sociopathology, including violence.

Indeed, increasingly those graffiti vandals do engage in violence. Citizens who so much as flash their headlights or yell at them to stop have been shot and sometimes murdered.

As in so many other areas, with regard to taggers, right and left see life through opposing moral prisms. On the left, the tagger is viewed as society's victim; on the right, society is viewed as the tagger's victim.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Tomcats...
"...graffiti artists are nothing but tomcats marking their territories."

And we all know what the standard treatment is for tomcats marking their territory...

Taggers
In response to Tee in Washington, Reply #1, his following para.: Graffiti writers (taggers) are not the wild and evil animals, insane, violent and armed downtrodden outcasts of society your article's posture paints them to be, and this has been proven repeatedly. MY COMMENT: What then are they? They sneak to spray their "artwork"; they deface property and have no responsibilty towards undoing their "artwork". They have choosen to be outcasts of society by their ignoring the majority rule of working in society instead of running around looking like outcasts of society. They know this is wrong but they do it anyway suggesting the rebellious poor me and blame society for the things I do rather than stand up and bite the bullet. Disgusted that this has gone as far as it has and that there are still actually those who consider that scribbling and goofy looking so called letters of some sort art. Pathetic. Shot them in the knee caps. Georgia

Classic.
"Given the destructive nature of tagging -- the moment one sees graffiti, one knows one has entered a largely lawless and violent environment where thugs terrorize innocents -- I prefer something, even if violent, rather than nothing be done."

Outrageously amusing! And I bet that when one with such a mindset strays off a forest path where wild animals roam, he feels so threatened that he "prefer[s] something, even if violent, rather than nothing be done."

What brilliant illumination into your perspective: "if it's not square, solid, gray, and tall, it ought be regarded as threatening and unorthodox, and therefore should be shot." Graffiti writers (taggers) are not the wild and evil animals, insane, violent and armed downtrodden outcasts of society your article's posture paints them to be, and this has been proven repeatedly.

You talk of civilization, and yet state that shooting people to scare them into line is the correct way to maintain it... From this statement alone, one can divine that you are about as deep as a puddle, my friend, and near-sighted as the microbes floundering in it. Please, let's shoot those, too, which figure the earth goes 'round the sun, and not vice versa, because they undermine civilization and order as we know it, those barbarians!

Truly and obviously you feel frightened and intimidated by that which you lack control over. I'd offer you suggestions on how to regain a more relative perspective (useful for things which you fundamentally misunderstand but yet crave to instill your version of order into) but a wise person once imparted this aphorism to me: "One cannot learn that which he thinks he already knows."

Perhaps one day you will learn to recognize and appreciate beauty in places you don't expect it, instead of blindly following your instincts which shout for you to shoot it into line so that YOUR barbaric version of "order" can be maintained.

Shooting Taggers
WFalcoff,

I think that shooting the legs is a great idea. It will make them think the next time they visit the paint store.

debate on shooting taggers
A debate on the idea of shooting taggers rages on a blog post. Visit the link to participate. Do you agree that conservatives see shooting taggers as normal and good? Or do you think Prager's terribly misguided? Come and leave comments!

http://progressivejew.blogspot.com/2008/08/prager-on-shooti ng-taggers.html

Anominus
We have them here on stop lights. Houston in particular has them. All they can talk about is the extra millions they make a week. And, as you say, it is a little difficult to meet your accuser in court. But then, you aren't supposed to go to court. You are only supposed to pay the fine. From what I've heard, if you do choose to go to court, they always throw it out. Interesting, huh?

45caliber
Those cameras are all about making money. They have them at a few of the traffic lights around town. Our illustrious "Nappy" Napolitano has stated herself that these "red light" cams are a part of her plan to boost our economy.
Personally, I don't mind them, as I don't speed. I do hate the policies that come with them, though.

Foreign drivers (out of state or country) are exempt from the tickets that are supposed to be mailed to the offender. So if you have a "Sonora" license plate, you are still welcome to speed through these lights! The reasoning is that it's "too expensive" to send these tickets to non-locals. Guess who causes a great number of traffic accidents around here? Illegal aliens from Mexico - the ones most likely to be driving with the Sonora plates! So much for safety!

The fact that the camera took your picture, with you most likely being unaware, makes it impossible to "meet your accuser" in court. Kinda makes it a bit difficult to defend yourself, if you choose to do so.

CKHustler
About speeding:

A county in Arizona placed a camera and radar on a section of freeway. They were going to give tickets to speeders since they were driving unsafely.

They issued 22,000+ tickets the first day. Incidently, not one accident. So - were they trying to emphasize safety or make a lot of money?

A sherrif in Arkansas was once recognized for having the safest traffic record in the country over a dozen holidays in a row. When asked how he did it, he said, "I get the slow drivers off the road. They cause the wrecks. The speeders know what they are doing."

Reyne:
While I might not shoot a vandal (although rock salt has its appeal) I would shoot someone who tried to attack me to "teach me a lesson".

And I agree about rape. However I think my father had the best idea about what to do with serial rapists and child molesters.

You did NOT kill them. You took them into an old building, stripped them naked, drove a large nail through their ... ah ... sex equipment into the floor, handed them an old, dull table knife, and then set fire to the building. If he stays inside, it is his choice so you didn't kill him. If he comes out, he will never rape anyone ever again.

17 summers, isushman, prager
17: Yes, I'm watching the storm. I hope it goes somewhere else. This time I don't plan to run unless it is really a killer.

isushman: I have no problem giving government money to art such as museums, orchestras, etc. - as long as it is done fairly and for the best art. I have a big problem with the people awarding the money giving 90% to themselves (as has been done) and to people who like blood art, anti-religious art, etc. That seems to be the ones who get it.

prager: I think the whole point of this article is not to shoot taggers but to explain the difference between libs and cons in property and what is a crime. Personally, I gave up part of my life to acquire money to buy something. I don't consider the perp's life worth more than mine. And I don't set his life's value; he does. If he sets it worth 50 cents then he isn't worth much and deserves to be shot. I might not shoot a tagger, but I wouldn't hesitate to hold him under gun for the police.

Overboard
I am very conservative, but I fear Prager went overboard. He put his foot in his mouth. This gives conservatism a bad name. I do believe we have the right to defend our property, but for heavens sake, if what we are talking about is merely protecting our property against graffiti, than advocate spraying mace instead of using a gun.

wiseone
"Wrong again dave"

I think you need to read the definition of "analogy." Here, I looked it up for you:

a) Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
b) A comparison based on such similarity

Do you notice that it says "in some respects," and not "exactly the same in each and every minute detail"? The object of discussing an analogy is to draw a similar situation so that you can look at something in a different way and discuss it from a different viewpoint. Of course, conservatives cannot do this, because their goal is to avoid rational discussion that might lead them to reflect on their screwed up views. So they avoid the discussion by focusing of trivialities based on techniques such as mangling the definition of words like "analogy."

"You are a waste of my time and intellect."

Sure. You are a real genius. Funny.

weird
I don't think we should shoot taggers. It's immoral.

Agree or disagree? progressivejew.blogspot.com

disagree
I can empathize with people who have murderous impulses but the idea is to control them. The better idea would be to snap their picture. That way one could give it to the police.
I think graffiti is a male thing. They are marking territory like urinating on a tree. Males of animals act in certain ways. A rooster crows.
Young males like to drive motorcycles thereby polluting our sound space with an annoying sound. They like buzz saws for the same reason. They like cars without mufflers. They like loud radios. We don't shoot them. It annoys me to the same extent. If they claim territory that is not theirs I say teach them what it feels like to have their territory marked with someone else's mark. An individual should not do this. The court should. Take their notebooks and stamp stamps on them "property of the court" or something annoying to them. Someone should fix this website. This is a pain in the neck .It is painfully slow.

standshisground:
I disagree--I think both C & L believe in the fallenness of humans, and most of the L's I know are people of faith. I don't know a single L who believes in the perfectibility of humans. As I said at 183, I think the differences are about emphasis, not substance, and that we do ourselves no good in continuing to assume we have absolute fundamental differences in perspective. I am a political 'liberal' with some morally 'conservative' ideas. So what do or can the categories mean to me? I consider myself L because I do not identify with what those who label themselves C seem to think, but I do see profound commonality between me and some basic values they espouse. I think a lot of people on both sides are distracted by partisan noise in their heads, and don't realize how much we have in common. My dad's a conservative republican and I'm a liberal democrat--but we love one another and share deep, deep values: we can both label a &*^%head a &*^%head and an angel an angel. This kind of thing is replicated in families all over the place. What does that tell us about these categories? I think it tells us that human relationships are what is important, and ideology is problematic shorthand for when we don't want to trouble ourselves to think too much in the moment or to make ourselves vulnerable.

wiseone
bought time you start listening to me! haha

Notice once I brought up other stupid stuff he didn't bring that topic up anymore.

I know that days when I leave early for work...around 6:15 or so...traffic is clicking at a much higher rate than the speed limit and I rarely see an accident. Id say that laws such as reckless driving would cover speeding that actually causes accidents. Most speeding doesn't....and if you notice, the autobahn is safer than our freeways without speed limits on much of the road.

Personally, with the autobahn accident numbers compared to ours, it doesn't seem that they could prove that speed limits increase safety. And if they can't prove that, then how is the law constitutional?

Barack
Quit trying to lure people to your blog by saying stupid things like:

"voice your opinion. nobody on townhall.com, especially prager, bothers to read what you say. "

If nobody read what I said, I wouldn't be posting here. I know for a fact that at least a couple of the posters read my stuff because they find it informative and engaging most of the time, so you can quit with the ridiculousness. If you want us to go to your blog, just say so without that crap.

liberal at work
"I'm all for protecting beauty, high culture, and civilization. That's why I think that in addition to graffiti vandals, the "vandals" that tear down beautiful old buildings and neighborhoods to put up ugly strip malls and giant super stores, or build huge housing developments in environmentally & ecologically sensitive areas should also be "shot", or at least policed. I support culture too, and that's why I like the idea of public funds designated for support of the arts including public TV & radio, symphony orchestras, museums, music and art education in our public schools, etc. etc. "

Never mind the jobs those corporations create. Never mind that the building tore down was paid for by the person tearing it down. Never mind that they are actually adding productivity to your town/city. Never mind that our country was built on big business, the biggest business in the world. Never mind progress.

If it makes you feel good, thats all it takes right? Jeez, I think liberals are breeding themselves down the intellect chain around here.

full response
full response and debate rages at this blog:
progressivejew.blogspot.com

so far about half the people say dennis prager is right. what do you think? taggers being shot?
voice your opinion. nobody on townhall.com, especially prager, bothers to read what you say.

Final response to dave 742
"The correct analogy to me shooting speeders would be for someone to shoot a gang member who is carrying a spray can while on their property."

Wrong again dave.

The correct analogy would be for a homeowner to shoot a person carrying a spray can on public property. The streets, roads, and highways where you would presume to shoot speeders are not your private property. After several hours and numerous posts you still can't this this private property distinction through your communist head.

CKhuster is right. You are a waste of my time and intellect.

Vandal is as Vandal does
Don't call the stinking pieces of sheite "taggers".

And they should be shot. And they should be killed. In their hearts they have already killed all we hold dear. They are rabid wolves and should be treated as such.

If you don't have the stomach to shoot the rabid wolves then buy a big mean dog and turn him loose on them.

the big mick

Taggers
It is hard to catch taggers, but once caught, he or she should be required to remove the graffiti and "restore" the public or private property. Why should taxpayers and private citizens have to pay to fix up what these "artists" have ruined? Graffiti removal costs taxpayers lots of money to remove it. The surface of which they tag does not belong to them and they have no right to deface it. Period.
A couple of years ago I was in a bus in Mexico looking at the buildings on both sides of the street. What an ugly mess - graffiti everywhere. There is nothing good about graffiti. Those who say tagging is "art" ought to remember that no one paid the "artist" to deface property. If the "artist" needs a big "canvas" - let him or her go buy it like all artists have done for centuries...or find a patron.


Prager a dolt
How about why Conservatives and Republicans differ Prager you witless dolt.

Name me a Conservative policy put forward by Bush the neocon nitwit.

Name a way in which Bush or McCain will do anything with my tax dollars other than flush them down the Shiite Shaire toilet?

You witless neocons have not idea what Conservatism is.

I love
...watching all the libs morally equivocate as fast as fast as they can lol.

Would you shoot a baby for taking a cookie?

hahaha.

Shooting taggers illegal?
Why is that? Is there a bag limit? Generally we don't need hunting tags for vermin, varmints and snakes but every jurisdiction is different I guess.

?"If I am alone on the street and someone wanted my wallet and I DID NOT think my life was in danger, I would probably give it to them."?
Please. If you life is not in danger tell them to go away. If they don't shoot them. Giving in to criminals on the hope they won't hurt us has only resulted in bolder criminals, more injuries and death.

Property can be replaced? If you are seen as an easy mark the word would spread. How much property can be replaced? How many times before it begins to impact your family?

But if you are forced to shoot remember: call your lawyer first and then the police. Unless it is a tagger, then just bury your gun somewhere.Send it to Dennis Prager.

Shooting Taggers...
I come from a different time. A time when one was responsible for their actions. Where consequences were a result of your actions.

Example: West San Fernando Valley (CA) around 1962, farm house on a hill with orange groves surrounding the sides of the hill. Common knowledge that there was a caretaker on the property that would shoot trespassers with rock-salt from a shotgun. We all knew what the rules were if we were to get caught on the property. If your back-side was full of salt on a Sunday afternoon, it was your fault. You KNEW what the prices was to pay.

Today there are no consequences for anyones action. Society in general does not hold anyone accountable.

If these taggers knew what the risk would be for defacing someones property, they may begin to change there ways.

I would not would wound them though.

I live in an environment where this vermin assaults our property. Animals now better than to defecate where they live. These fools are dumber that dumb. Inbreeding?

What do these fools have to offer society?

Retired Geek
Hate speech is normally, for legal purposes, speech that ridicules another due to race, religion, sexual preference, and other like factors that make the person to which the statement is made be fearful. Kids say 'I hate you' and it is said so commonly that it is not, per se, hate speech. Hate speech is speech which sets out why the recipient is 'hated'.

Shoot To Kill
Why not? These thugs do not understand the concept of private property. Everything is fair game to them. If they can take it, they can have it.

The thugs will never amount to anything and will always be a burden on the taxpayers.

When I would Kill another Human

I would kill anyone who breaks into my home if my family is present.

I would try to reason with anyone who breaks into my home if only I were present.

I have the right to give up my own life, in my own home, in order to attempt non violence.

I am a father and a husband, I think, I do NOT have the right to jeopardize my families life in order to attempt non violence.

I would NEVER kill another human being over property that can be replaced.

I am an expert shot, with both rifle and handgun and have many trophies to prove it.

I have a concealed weapon carry permit and I am always armed.

If I am alone on the street and someone wanted my wallet and I DID NOT think my life was in danger, I would probably give it to them.

Life Member NRA since 1972.

Paglo has a point
I haven't read all the commnets yet, but Pablo, you have the best point. While highly trained police and soldiers may be able to shoot to wound, and even then people move suddently, it is just too much of a risk to take that someone who is not physically threatening you, might die if you shoot him.

People have a right to protect their property--banks and jewelry stores have armed guards, but there is a difference between protecting yourself from someone breaking in your house or threatening you with a weapon to rob you and someone who is vandalizing.

Though at times, looters are shot, and deservedly so, because they are taking advantage of people who have already been damaged.

Former_Rep_Never_a_Dem
I think a large part of graffiti is about "sticking it to the man" - the man being anyone who is not the tagger.

I have heard from the police who bust these thugs that they "just think they are expressing themselves" through their "art."

I do agree with your last paragraph, though. However, I consider my home and each of my belongings an extension of myself. I either worked hard for my "stuff" or it was given to me by someone who cares about me. Therefore, I take an attack on my house personally as an attack against me, and will respond accordingly.

Taggers
It seams that Dennis Prenger has really lost it. There is no such think as shooting to wound. If you have lawful justifcation to dicharge a firearm at someone then you should be shooting to kill.

Tagging is a violation of the law and should be treated as such. It is not art; however the use of a firearm on a tagger is an example of gross overkill.Plan to spend a long time in prison if you go that route.

I really like my car and would hate to see it tagged, but I would not dream of shooting a tagger. That would be an irrational action.I would have no problem with putting a tagger in jail.

Taser and bear spray the -
Little peckerwoods. Paint balls. But be aware most of them are gang-bangers so reprisals are not out of the question.

Since we have several lawyers here Today

I have probably a silly question that has been bugging me.

'If a person says to another person - "I hate you" - is that a 'Hate Speech'?

Prager, give me a break
The author writes: "Conservatives tend to regard graffiti as an assault on society, perpetrated by pathologically narcissistic lowlifes bent on undermining the foundations of higher civilization."

I seriously doubt any vandal thinks about or cares about how they are "undermining the foundations of civilization". That would take intellegent thinking and one thing you can be sure of is that anyone who vandalizes someone else's property can't be all that smart.

As far as shooting someone who is vandalizing your property? If the vandal has no respect for you or your property then why should you have any respect for them? It also depends on the situation. Would I shoot someone who's stealing a flower from my garden? Probably not. Would I shoot someone who is slashing the tires or otherwise vandalizing/stealing my car? In a heartbeat.

Reyne
As I said in my previous post:

"Usually, old buildings are destroyed because they are either too costly to upgrade to modern standards, or because they are unfit for the wants / needs of the surrounding society. I know of quite a few old mansions that have been destroyed because it was too costly to repair them. I often hear complaints about their destruction, but only in a few cases have I heard of average citizens offering to aid in the restoration, themselves."

Aside from those issues there are also laws regarding the restoration of historical buildings which can make it prohibitively expensive to do the work. These laws define the methods of restoration and limit the extent of upgrades. While it is nice to preserve our history, it isn't always possible to do without a much greater cost to society.

Pablo has a point
I haven't read all of these yet, but Pablo, I think you made the best point so far. Trained soldiers and police officers may be able to shoot to wound, but while people have a right to protect their property (e.g. armed guards at banks, etc) it is better not to take the chance that someone who is not doing you physical harm or threatening to, could be killed. You could perhaps use the gun to scare them off.

Reply re buildings
I think we have too many strip malls, which homogenize the country and make it boring. How about if some of those developers fixed the old buildings and put some small businesses in them? That way, we'd have the benefit of both. While it's nice to find Dunkin Donuts coffee everywhere except in AZ, CO and UT, what used to make visiting other parts of the country so nice was seeing its different cultural development reflected in the architecture.

The preferable scenario:
Ideally, I think it would be awesome to force the tagger to lay on his belly (at gun point, if necessary) have him empty his pockets, then spray a streak down his back with his own paint (in yellow if they have it), and then have him run. That way, you have his ID and whatever money he was carrying. Now you have something to give to police so they can go pick up the tagger from his "momma's house," and use his money to repair whatever damage was done.

Ah! Happy thoughts!

Graffit
Interesting article. As a HS teacher in the Bronx, I can tell you that most (but not all) graffiti is gang related, often a way to mark their "turf." Removing or altering the gang tags can often result in getting jumped or killed. I'm not sure I could agree with vandals getting shot, though it certainly costs a lot of time and effort to repair your property. And I would add the death penalty for serial rapists and those who rape children.

isushman
The difference between vandals and developers is the law. Vandals destroy / deface property that does not belong to them without permission. Developers may destroy "beautiful" old buildings and build in "environmentally sensitive" areas, but at least they either own that property and are practicing their rights.

Usually, old buildings are destroyed because they are either too costly to upgrade to modern standards, or because they are unfit for the wants / needs of the surrounding society. I know of quite a few old mansions that have been destroyed because it was too costly to repair them. I often hear complaints about their destruction, but only in a few cases have I heard of average citizens offering to aid in the restoration, themselves.

Which would you prefer, an empty, large, old building which typically attracts vagrants, or a productive "strip mall" which will provide jobs?

And by the way, "environmentally sensitive" is just another term used by liberals to try to prevent the growth of "evil corporations." In reality, it usually means "don't block my view" and has little to do with preservation.

Considering how much tax money we already spend promoting the so-called "arts," and the best results we get are rap "music" and religious images covered in feces and porno in our museums, I think its about time we cut all government spending on "art." Let the people fund it if they want it on their own.

Perhaps
A big can of bear spray applied liberally would break these vandals of their little habits. At least send them to libs houses where they cann be appreciated.
Maybe taser them....unless you wish to let them continue on their merry destructive way.

WFalicoff while shaking my head
"Mr. Prager states that it would be okay to shoot the legs or arms of graffiti vandals. But no one knows in advance if they will hit these parts of the body or even if one is able to accurately hit say a leg whether or not complications might not result in serious injury or death of the individual."

Anything at all to keep an innocent man from defending himself and his property. Anything.

"Your justification of shooting graffiti vandals is that they will for sure escalate their crimes later anyway."

Because the use of force is so enticing to they who provoke it.

If you're teaching this to your kids, I'm truly sorry for them.

Subject: ladykrystyna
This article goes into even more detail as to current laws in the self-defense area in different countries, and also covers the trend in this country against proportionality in self-defense:

George Mason University, School of Law
Journal of Law, Economics and Policy
Fall, 2006
2 J.L. Econ. & Pol'y 331
"The Worldwide Popular Revolt Against Proportionality in Self-Defense Law"
Renee Lettow Lerner

..and while we're at it
I'm all for protecting beauty, high culture, and civilization. That's why I think that in addition to graffiti vandals, the "vandals" that tear down beautiful old buildings and neighborhoods to put up ugly strip malls and giant super stores, or build huge housing developments in environmentally & ecologically sensitive areas should also be "shot", or at least policed. I support culture too, and that's why I like the idea of public funds designated for support of the arts including public TV & radio, symphony orchestras, museums, music and art education in our public schools, etc. etc.

To Coastal Conservative
Yes it is wrong to pre-emptively shoot someone. You must feel a real threat to your person or someone else's. You can't go around shooting people "pre-emptively" or there would be no conservatives.

Us Liberals have guns too.

Carlos - There is a bill in the Michigan house that will allow Tasers. It is slowly making it's way through the process.

ladykrystyna
"If anyone has further links about self-defense laws in Australia and England and elsewhere, I'd be happy to read them."

Here is a good article covering the issue we discussed:

Caroline Forell, American University Journal of Gender, Social Policy & the Law, 2006
14 Am. U.J. Gender Soc. Pol'y & L. 27
"GENDER EQUALITY, SOCIAL VALUES AND PROVOCATION LAW IN THE UNITED STATES, CANADA AND AUSTRALIA"

I can't quote much, but since you're a lawyer you can look it up:

"The Victorian Parliament heeded the Commission's advice, but instead of reintroducing the partial excuse of excessive self-defense, it enacted a new crime called 'defensive homicide.' This crime has no minimum sentence and provides a maximum sentence of twenty years; the same penalty that applied to the manslaughter based on provocation before it was abolished. Defensive homicide is committed when a person kills another while believing the conduct was necessary to defend herself or another from death or 'really serious injury' where she did not have reasonable grounds for this belief. This new crime was enacted to address family violence situations where the defendant killed out of fear but is unable to meet the reasonableness requirement for self-defense. As Attorney General Rob Hulls noted in his discussion of this crime before the Legislative Assembly: 'This is a reform that is aimed at removing entrenched bias and misogynist assumptions from the law to make sure that women who kill while genuinely believing it is the only way to protect themselves or their children are not condemned as murderers.'"

I joined this rather late
Mr. Prager advocates "shooting to wound" people who are vandalizing private property. Has he ever fired a weapon? has he ever taken a firearms course? You don't shoot to wound. You shoot to kill. Don't aim your gun at anything that you do not want to kill.

Oh, I shot him in the leg, I just wanted to wound him. I'm sorry he bled to death because I hit an artery.

What a stupid comment. I used to respect Mr. Prager but he seems to be trying to out-do Ann Coulter for ridiculous commentary.

He tops himself with this statement;
"A third reason is that conservatives tend to view higher civilization as more fragile than the left views it. Conservatives believe the line between civilization and barbarism is under constant assault and is not necessarily enduring."

First off, don't generalize about people. Especially me and my liberal, Democrat, moderate friends.

So only conservatives tend to view higher civilization as fragile? And then he advocates shooting people for property crimes? If that is his view of a "higher civilization" than I will have to reconsider the conservative view of civilization and the value of human life.