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Tuesday, June 24, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Are So Many Women Depressed?
by Dennis Prager
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It is widely reported that women suffer depression at twice the rate of men. Apparently, more women are clinically depressed than ever before. On the assumption that these assessments are true, the question anyone interested in the subject -- which means anyone who cares about any woman -- asks is, why?

In a recent column I offered one explanation -- the impossibly high expectations for happiness that feminism created for many women.

There are other possible explanations.

One is the way in which many girls have been raised.

As every wise person and wise culture in history has known, it is impossible to attain any happiness without conquering one's nature. This is, of course, equally true for boys and girls, men and women. However, along with feminism arose a belief in the superiority of female nature. One result of this has been the suppressing of many male instincts -- both negative and positive -- along with little or no suppression of negative female instincts.

Societies and parents always knew that it was imperative to teach boys to control two aspects of their male nature -- their sexual desires and their predilection for violence. So all of us decent men were taught from a young age to touch a woman sexually only with her permission and to channel our physical aggression into sports or into helping to fight evil by joining a police force, or the military, or by being prepared to physically defend innocents. Men who did not learn to control these aspects of male nature not only became bad men, they became unhappy men. Happiness is attainable only when we control our nature and not when our nature controls us.

Societies and parents also always knew that it was imperative to teach girls to control their natures -- in particular their predilection to be ruled by their emotions. Women who allowed their emotions to rule them not only became destructive (to members of their families first and foremost), they became unhappy women.

However, with the advent of contemporary feminism and other social trends that coincided with the rise of feminism -- among them the elevation of compassion over standards, the great emphasis placed on feelings, the rejection of patriarchy and the devaluation of traditional masculine virtues (like subdued emotional expression) -- female nature came to be seen as far less in need of discipline than male nature.

So, while society continued to teach boys to control themselves, it stopped teaching girls to do so. Girls' emotions and feelings were inherently valuable. And denying this was attacked as sexist, if not misogynistic.

Consequently, the women many of these girls grew into lacked the ability to control their natures, to control their emotions, or their moods, and therefore lacked the facility to engage in the self-control necessary for happiness and the avoidance of depression.

Another aspect of feminism that has probably contributed to many women's unhappiness was the rejection of femininity. Feminism was more often the celebration of masculine virtues (for women only, alas) than the celebration of feminine virtues. The latter were usually dismissed as weak, passive, underachieving or even oppressive. There are scores of examples. One is the rejection of feminine dress -- a girl who attends class at almost any high school or college wearing a skirt or dress is an anomaly. Another is coarse speech. A generation ago, men refrained from using curse words in front of women. Today many young women curse as readily as men (I have probably seen more women than men drivers make an obscene gesture at other drivers). Such behaviors were inconceivable when women were expected to act feminine. And, of course, the "liberated" female's celebration of casual sex, throughout history associated with male nature, is the antithesis of femininity.

This loss of femininity may well have contributed to many women's depression. Though in our foolish age femininity is often identified with weakness, it was in fact empowering for many women, giving them a distinct power and identity that was unavailable to men. Women are not generally happy being largely indistinguishable from men.

Which brings us to yet another cause of unhappiness among women -- the effects of all the above on men. Women are generally happier when they have a good man in their lives. And by "good man," I mean not only devoted and kind, but masculine as well. Yet the prevailing egalitarian doctrines have conspired not only to undermine femininity in women but masculinity in many men. Just as women were supposed to forge feminine virtues, men were supposed to relinquish masculine virtues, which have been derided as sexist, oppressive, patriarchal and, therefore, anachronistic.

However, once again, things did not work out for many women as feminism had led them to expect they would. The dearth of masculine men has not brought most women happiness, but unhappiness. Those who do not believe this should simply ask single adult women looking for a husband what their greatest problem is with the men they meet. "They are not men," is the single greatest lament. Not "they are not egalitarian enough" or "not sensitive enough."

And women without men are not, as the old feminist saying went, fish without bicycles. They are women without men.

The 1960s ushered in The Age of Hubris, a time of almost unprecedented levels of conceit that one knew better than all previous generations how to order life, that almost everything inherited from the past was just plain wrong and outdated. For this hubris we have paid, and will continue to pay, a steep price. And many women, untrained in subduing darker aspects of their natures, deprived of the female joy of femininity and increasingly deprived of men (as opposed to boys), are feeling the brunt of these losses. They call it depression.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Despair
What an irony in that feminism purports to benefit women, but does the exact opposite. This is all very simple: Men want 'women' and women want 'men'.

If women want to know how to treat men, please check out Dr. Laura. She gets it. And she has the letters from readers to prove she is right.

...Cont'd
Most women follow this modern feminism trap believing they can live like this happily ever after for many years as is fantasized in such ridiculous shows as Sex In The City. Many are now in their late 30's and 40's. They have never married - NOT BECAUSE ALL MEN ARE WUSSES AS THIS GUY PURPORTS - but because they were all about themselves and their careers. They watched their more enlightened counterparts marry and start families. They felt all the while that even though the clock was ticking, they would still in the end pull off the major upset - the triumph of modern feminism, but who is upset now??? Now, they find themselves less attractive in their older age, no longer able to snag those hot studs, unmarried, lonely, in many cases friendless, and now even dateless, and childless in their near-menopausal, tragic existence. They turn to dogs, cats, or even such desperate measures as lesbianism to satisfy their basic human longing for affection. Their game has ran its course, and they now know it. THAT IS WHY WOMEN ARE DEPRESSED.

Depressed?
No, I'm bitter, and I Vote!

The Casualties of Modern Feminism
1.) 54 million murderous abortions and counting in the US alone - a curse on this nation that has not gone unnoticed by Almighty God

2.) Numerous, depressed lonely single women and lots of single lonely men. American singles now make up over 50% of the US adult population, a staggering statistic.

3.) This portends the US demographics of the future which will lead to well-entrenched Democratic Party rule until the eventual economic destruction of our nation. The Democratic Party hegemony for years to come with the ensuing Comprehensive Immigration Reform (Amnesty) legislation that will be ramrod down our throats will guarantee many more abortions and further degradation of the US demographics.

In many ways, you can thank modern feminism for the destruction of so many lives and the re-emergence, resurgence, and now guaranteed immortality of a political party, the Democratic Party, that should have been put to death a long time ago for patently un-American, un-Constitutional policies, irrelevance, sedition, and TREASON. Liberalism has triumphed; why isn't anyone celebrating???

an observation
we would all be better off if we digested thoughtful viewpoints like Dennis' before spewing...What is it about the internet that attracts such meanspiritedness? And this is not gender specific, unfortunately. Maybe there is something to that lack of selfcontrol...

depression
In societies where there is no drinking, men suffer depression at the same rate as women.


Anna
Would this be because alcohol prevents depression in males, or causes depression in females?

And what are some examples of these societies? Muslim countries? I would be suspicious of any statistics coming out of any ME country.

Female depression
My take would be that women like solid stable relationships and get a lot of satisfaction out of motherhood and close family. All of these things are becoming more scarce, and women feel the lack.

I guess
from a female: I guess the question is what are the mothers teaching their children, their daughters, and is the media supporting them? No. Is the society supporting women having choice and by that I mean not having to live up to some media created image that is impossible to meet? No. Are women supporting each other? No.
Luckily my female friends are supportive even if one does not have the perfect body, and the perfect job, and the perfect career. Women in my life who couldn't do this have fallen by the wayside. I know of a woman who started a woman's support group for women who were married and had children and had careers, and then when she went through a period of not working due to illness, her "support group" told her that she didn't qualify to belong anymore because she wasn't working.
A female friend and I were laughing together that one of the things we had in common is that we don't particularly like women.
Women may be unaware of how cruel young men are to each other in a pecking order competitive world, but I think similarly a lot of people are unaware of the viciousness of the female which is why I don't buy into the idea that more females in power would mean a kindler gentler world. Yeah right. It might be a more mean spirited, vicious, lacking integrity, back stabbing, and lying to itself to boot society.
During the French Revolution, women sat watching the beheadings as they knitted.

why

i dont know how many have you asked to go out lately

I'll add
I'll add that one of the nicest things about getting older is realizing how wonderful life is whether one is single or married or whatever. It is seeing people as other than potential mates where you can see the beauty of a young man who wants to be a hero, and the beauty of a woman who has not yet had children but has the potential like a rosebud. It is feeling the quality of the air that brushes your cheek. It is the realization that life in the physical does not go on forever and time is precious, and people are precious. It is not taking for granted color, and perfume, and food, and air to breathe, and water to drink. And it is also realizing that there are people who spend every waking minute thinking about how to hurt us, and take it away.






A Single Woman

I live in a liberal place. We have a large population of single men and women. I am also a single parent whose child is now in college. I have been living an abstinent life for more than five years.

I felt the driving need to step back and review my priorities before dating again. The other night, a fellow I know pulled up next to me on his BMW motorcycle.

To get to the bottom line, the conversation turned personal. I rejected the notion of sex for sex's sake and he asked if I was a Catholic radical.

I took a deep breath and wearily said, "Yes, I suppose so." Then I told him I had to leave.

Now that is a reason for depression. That the only offer men can make is one based purily on the physical. There is no desire to see the person beyond their immediate satisfaction. So you aren't even a person - just an object.

I want no part in that. Fortunately I have conservative friends who happen to be male.

Now the trick is to find both those aspects in one person. Not a perfect person but a true man who is willing to commit to both.

I suspect I don't have a high probability of that happening, especially when the culture within which I live doesn't value what I value.

I think the trick to being single while still being open to a relationship is that you are willing to put it in God's hands and you live life fully, enriching yourself and those around you.

Live generously, learn and continue to test the boundaries of what you might be capable of, enjoying the friendship of men, women and family.






Buck Up!
I'm sure there are lots of case of clinical depression that are organic but for the rest, buck up.
In my forty's I was laid off not once but twice. Rejected and I didn't even do anything wrong. It was tough. I was depressed but not clinically, situationaly. Thank God I had a great wife at home to support me.
In my "depression" I turned to God. He gave me what I needed,not what I wanted. Happily, I can say that I'm still employeed with probably a better situation but it took seven years at a less prestigious job and lots of hard work.
So, if you are depressed turn to God. Ask the Father for courage and strength. Work hard. Be thankful for what you have not disappointed about what you don't. See your Doctor if you must but beware because they practice defensive medicine and you might get medicine you really don't need. In short, pray and Buck Up! PS - I'm not bitter and I vote too.

Sabine Women

We need to share with our daughters the lessons learned by the actions of the Sabine women.

They resisted and the Romans fell before them. And when their fathers and brothers came to destroy the Romans, the Sabine women threw themselves between them.

I think if every woman in the world who is single including those within the "profession" stopped having sex even the affections of the lowliest woman would increase in value.

We should enlist Oprah and every celebrity demographic to push for a Sabine month of abstinence. I'll take 30 days as a good start.

Abstinence is a discipline just like all of the other mature practices adults should learn in self-restraint.

I think if we did this every year we'd see some startling results.

Reason for depression and stress.
There are those of us who were raised with the idea of being a 'lady', a word not used much anymore.
We are pounded with this is a new day and in order to fit you have to 'go with the flow'.
I tried that. The only thing I got out of it was a lack of respect for myself.
Depression, loss of self.
I was a strong woman, but a woman. I allowed myself to listen to friends and try to become someone I wasn't. Did I enjoy being with a man that I cared for...of course...but I felt such guilt that I broke it off. I didn't like myself. I was ashamed of myself.
A woman should be a lady. She should be feminine. She should look like a woman..not all the time. There are times when jeans are appropriate...but we are different and personally I like it that way. Call me old fashioned...I don't care. Once I was proud of it, now I have to forgive myself for not being true to myself.

Hi Anna & Lilys

I think it is obvious to most, that there are Natural roles for Men and Women, and that any attempt to change these natural roles, is a Fool's errand.

This is Not to say that this extends to business, ploitics, or anything other than the nuclear family.

'Vampire Rodent', 'Ladies of the Evening', and 'The Brain Dead Vampire' (who is busy right now.

Rats
(and mice)

P.S. Glad to see you back, Anna & Lilys!

WhooHah ! Things are normal again.


Depression
I am a single woman and have been a single woman all my life. I am not depressed. I have been frustrated and annoyed, impatient, sad, irritated and so on; but the only time I was ever depressed was when I drank. That of course is a vicious circle and the way to get over it is to get over it, which I did.

Had womens liberation never happened, I would be depressed and likely a teacup alcoholic -- because I am not the marrying-and-staying-home-waxing-my-eyeglasss type woman. I chose to remain single and have a career (two careers simultaneously, in point of fact) and stand and fall by my own decisions.

I have found over my lifetime that the one thing that terrifies men -- including those Tarzans who call themselves Real Men --is the fact that a woman can look after herself. Invariably the men I have dated who wanted to form a more lasting entanglement wanted to wrest control of my life from me. One even demanded that I allow him to pick my eyeglasses! Note I am not saying they wanted to SHARE control. They wanted FULL control. The reason I am not depressed is that I long ago realized that I am a full, stand-alone human being who does not need somebody else to tell me when to breathe. The reason a lot of my ex-boyfriends are depressed is that they could not stand that thought.

Definitely brilliant analysis
Dennis Prager scores again.

Over simplification
The female psyche is rather complicated.

I spent most of my life as a stay at home wife and mother. I was very feminine, and continue to be so today. I am one of a very few in my workplace who wears a dress and heels to work everyday.

I also had a husband who was masculine, oppressive and domineering. I was depressed most of my life. Now, at age 59, I am happy and at peace. I have a satisfying career and am married to a man who loves and respects me.

I think in most cases, the depression that women experience is more about hormones than anything else. Most of my depression evaporated after menopause. Trying to read too much into women's depression can drive us crazy and make us come to all sorts of erroneous conclusions. It is also a fact that men can never understand what it is like to wrestle with female hormones and the constant push and pull that they have on our minds, bodies and emotions.

Nothing New
Depression in women was not caused by feminism---it clearly antedates feminism. Narrowly prescribing to a woman what she may do with her life (as was generally done in the past) is an invitation to emotional symptomatology in its many forms. Think back to the lady of fifty or a hundred years ago who made a production of having "one of MY headaches" when her headache was the only thing in her life that she could call her own. No question, today's women have problems and challenges that are new to the present age, but women were plenty depressed pre-Betty Friedan.

The simple answer
I guess the most obvious explanation would be that they have to put up with us guys, but that would be too easy :)

In my experience, Dennis is correct
I was raised by a mother that exercised considerable restraint over her nature. Years later I foolishly married a woman that had nearly none - we are now divorced.

I continue to hold doors open for women occasionally, being the old-schooler that I am and rarely hear a simple "thank you". I do the same for men and usually hear a quick thanks.

Many women have been come bull-headed, arrogant, pushy, hard-driving ... and have lost their humanity.

A true relationship where there was true learning, growing, stretching, challenge, etc. - was impossible with my wife. Many times when I've tried to behave towards women as my father behaves towards my mother, I get strange looks, I'm know I'm being put down, etc.

These women have been so completely fooled by feminism. There is considerable value in a relationship that spans decades but naturally they take lots of humility, effort, etc. It seems that not very many women are interested in having a truly good relationship, at least that has been my experience. I can only imagine that women that roll their eyes, turn up their nose ... at comments like mine have never had a warm, special relationship with another human being and that is tragic.

All men and women have considerable flaws and all of us need to wrestle with our natures (as Dennis often mentions). Men are not superior to women and women are not superior to men. We are each gifted uniquely and need to be far more grateful for the gifts in our lives than we are.

Lilly
Yes, women (and men) have always had depression within their ranks, but that is not what Prager's writing about. He is writing about the fact that "...more women are clinically depressed than ever before."

Prger is not making a claim about the root cause of women's depression in toto.

He is writing about a root cause of the expansion of depression in women.

Try addressing the issue that actually is in Prager's article. Knee-jerk reactions and assumptions don't make you look very intelligent.

Sheesh, Not Again, Dennis
Feminism did not spring depression upon unsuspecting women. I know you don't like feminism as most posters here do, but don't blame a movement for something that is simply a natural behavior for every human being since the begining of time.

Women have the deck stacked against them when it comes to emotions. We have hormonal changes every single month which is caused by menstruation. Last time I checked, feminism didn't invent The Period, in fact, if they had their way, we wouldn't be having one at all to save us the grief! And in the winter of our lives, we go through menopause...More grief!

Both men and women suffer depression due to many factors other than hormonal : chemical imbalances and the personality factors of having the inability to cope through rough patches.

Women simply have no qualms to express their depression to others, which is perhaps why you might think they are more depressed than men. However, men get just as depressed if not more than women, they simply refuse to express their emotions because to do so is perceived as a sign of weakness.

Women who have it all as far as good man, a good home, or a good career, good children, in any combination of want and happiness can still get depressed. It has nothing to do with the feminist movement. Hormones, chemistry, coping skills, or if they are a born drama queen and like depression for the attention have all the makings of why and how it can happen.


Lilly
By the way, I hope you're doing okay. As Primus said on another thread, many of us were concerned that your health, given your age and the fact that you were gone so long.

Not that I missed your predictable left-wing rants, but it is good to know you're okay.

The things that make you go...
Hmmm. If you have ever seen the movie "The Hours" if would give you some perspective on different aspects of womanhood...you've got he typical 50's mom, who keeps everything perfect and glides to the door with a drink at 5pm...She is clearly suffering by sacrificing herself for family. You've got the one who will never be happy, despite all that is well in her life. Then the repercussions of the same 50's mother who left and her son who gets AIDS. I'd be lying if I said I didn't identify with all of these situations, moments of doubt. But in the bigger picture, things have changed for my generation of women. We don't have to give up everything about ourselves as mothers and especially, wives. What we do need is to strike a balance without holding ourselves to someone else's standards. Unfortunately, it's easier for some, than others.

Excellent Article
Mr. Prager makes some excellent points and the clarity with which he expresses them is fantastic. I wish I could write that well.

His point is a masterpiece that feminism has taught that there are no "dark" female traits that need suppression, even as they promoted the idea that nearly ALL male traits are dark and need suppression. And at the same time suppresed their female traits and tried to put on male traits.

How wonderfull it is when children are taught the proper expression of their natures, and two such people find each other (one from each gender) and learn to appreciate and celebrate their differences rather than fight over them.

It follows
I am old enough to have seen the so-called sexual revolution, and the skewing of gender roles. I wasn't impressed then, and I'm not now.

An example is simply holding the door for a woman; I was raised to do so (along with a host of other politesse that was taught to the tune of a ruler on the knuckles by ever- vigilant nuns). In the 60's the response was a smile and a nod or "thank you." In the 70's through late 80's there was a 50-50 chance the response would come back, "I can open my own @#!!ing door, a**hole!" My response to this became, "I didn't have any doubt.. pause... until you made such an issue of it!" (Smile)

Today, I continue to hold doors for both men and women; the men always have said thanks, and to my surprise, it is always the younger women who, once again, smile and nod or even actually say thank you.

I suspect as long as women regard themselves and self-identify as merely vaginas that can talk, they will be unhappy.

Which wave of feminism?
I would like to know which wave of feminism Prager is writing about?

The first wave - where women were held equal to men according to the LAW?

The second, where women were (supposedly) given equality in the workplace?

Or third, where women are seeking equality within the home - where men are expected just as much as women to do the housework and care for their children?

Or is he writing about the backlash to the third wave, which tends to circle back to "pre-feminism," where women are expected to find happiness by "securing" the right man, one who does not live by the priveleges of his gender, but who is a feminist himself? And to do so, she must be smart AND sexy?

Knowing what aspects or waves of feminism Prager is discussing would make his argument better; I find he is lumping feminism into one big movement, when clearly there have been several feminist movements.

I see how women lived when they had no rights to support themselves, and I am GLAD that women before me had the guts to fight for their rights in accordance to the law and the workplace. I am still working on getting my husband to clean up after himself, though.

To Curtal
The fact that more patients in a given category of mental illness are being diagnosed nowadays is a function not only of occurrence of the illness but of diagnostic capability and availability. Read nineteeth century literature to know the lives of nineteenth century women, plenty of whom we now recognize as depressed. However, they weren't diagnosed because then nobody was diagnosing. These women were "troubled" or "nervous" or "hadn't found the Lord" or "were going through the Change". My point is that Adams blames the feminist movement for women being depressed and that it's silly to do so. Female depression antedates Women's Lib. Just as abortion antedates Roe v Wade. Also, a related question is whether more women are depressed than men, or whether women go for treatment more often than men and thus become diagnosed. The epidemiology of mental illness is complex. Adams tries to simplify it.

Lisa

" "Location: VA

Reply # 19
Date: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:18 AM EST Subject: A Single Woman

I live in a liberal place. We have a large population of single men and women. I am also a single parent whose child is now in college. I have been living an abstinent life for more than five years.

I felt the driving need to step back and review my priorities before dating again. The other night, a fellow I know pulled up next to me on his BMW motorcycle.

To get to the bottom line, the conversation turned personal. I rejected the notion of sex for sex's sake and he asked if I was a Catholic radical.

I took a deep breath and wearily said, "Yes, I suppose so." Then I told him I had to leave.



Now the trick is to find both those aspects in one person. Not a perfect person but a true man who is willing to commit to both.

I suspect I don't have a high probability of that happening, especially when the culture within which I live doesn't value what I value.

I think the trick to being single while still being open to a relationship is that you are willing to put it in God's hands and you live life fully, enriching yourself and those around you.

Live generously, learn and continue to test the boundaries of what you might be capable of, enjoying the friendship of men, women and family." "

~~~

Lisa,

Do not give up !

I looked for the same type of woman as you for, years. I found her, when I was age Thirty. We have been married for over 35 years now.

My Grandad did the same thing. My Dad did the same thing. My Son did the same thing. Marrying at age thirty or above, runs in my family. No divorces. Arguments? Heck yes.

There ARE men around who want these things.

Look in different places. They ARE out there.


Oxymoron
George Orwell so prophetically said it best in his book, "1984" when he wrote, "Ignorance is Strength". His vision of the future, which has been debated ad nauseum in many English Literature classes, was a path many could not see, let alone believe America would take.
Modern feminism has been all about giving every subsequent generation of women since the 1920's what they wanted in the hopes they would achieve the all elusive happiness.
Today, women are for the first time at a loss as to what must occur for them to truly be happy. Having all the labor and time savings devices plus villages of people helping them rasie their children, and men who do more domestically than at any other time in history has left many of them longing for days gone by.
Modern feminists are not just unhappy and depressed they are miserable and bitter. Some go out of their way to make those few women who are happy being stay and mothers and loving wives and berate and belittle them as less than human. May God have mercy on us all.

ASK THE DOCTOR

.....This one's easy ...Feminists and the feminization of men ...too many girlie men ...

.....The problem with groups that try to manipulate society is that they never get the outcome they expect ...because they all ignore basic human nature ...Marx/Engles dream of a classless, stateless dictatorship of the proletariat is the classic example of why these dreams always fail ...

.....Women are hard wired to be mothers and nuturers ...they are happiest when they are barefoot and pregnant waiting for their "man" to bring home the bacon so that they can cook it for him ...

.....I know women will rip me for this but those are the facts Jack ...you can't fool Mother Nature .....COLOSSUS

Feminist Myth #1
There are no differences between the sexes.

Yes, there are major differences, and viva la difference!

I was a young mother in the sixties/seventies when the ERA was starting and all the rage. My daddy instilled a large dose of common sense into me, and the ERA nonsense seemed just that, nonsense. Equal pay, yes, let someone else raise your kids so you could have a career, NO. I didn't go through nine miscarriages to let someone else raise those kids. I still ended up with a satisfying teaching career after I got the kids into school. I have a husband and we share all responsibilities for the marriage 50-50. However, I am now a domestic diva and I take care of the household duties, and he takes care fo me. What a country! Choices, we all have them!

This is new?
When I was a kid, my mom got upset at my dad. While she was gradually raising her voice, he sat there calmly and listened without saying a word. She finished with a loud crescendo and stomped out of the room. I said, "Dad, shouldn't you do something?" He replied, "Women just get that way sometimes. She'll be fine." And she was.

Now I have a wife and we have a little boy. The other day he saw his mommy upset for no apparent reason. She raised her voice and stomped out of the room. My little guy said, "Is she alright?" I said, "She will be." He said, "Shouldn't we hug her... or something?" I said, "Let's give it a shot!"

A group-hug-and-a-few-minutes-later, everything was fine. But it'll all happen again; women get that way sometimes.

I just wish that every woman had a loving husband and loving kids to turn to on the other side of those "sometimes". I guess being alone probably makes it worse...

MD/MG
Very well said. Hopefully some of your wisdom as an educator transfered to our young ladies.

Maybe
It's an interesting essay, but I'm not sure it's that simple. What depresses ME most about men is that so many of them seem to regard women much the same way they regard cars. They want the newest, sleekest thing they can get for their money. Even if they get it, they like test driving other cars. And no matter how much they seem to love that car, one day they will unexpectedly up and trade it in for a newer model.


Lepanto
They did transfer to at least 2 young ladies, my daughters who were stay at home moms until their kids were school age. They also transferred to my son whose wife stayed home with their daughter, and she has a nursing career now that daughter is in school. I also made sure abstinence was taught to both sexes. There are no little whoopsies that way. Thanks for the kudos, I just try one day at a time, one lib at a time. :-)

Depresssed Women
Concise analysis by bro' Prager, but I like to keep things simple and bucolic cuz ya caint make a racehorse outta a plowhorse, huh, Bubbas, and de only thing ya kin screw and work is a mule, etc. Jim in Mo.

women and depression
I'm 75 yrs old, but I still remember the women I was involved with during my childhood. As I recall, they were too busy to be depressed. In my opinion, the women today has too much time on their hands and they listen to "educated women" telling them how bad they have it, compared to men (of course), after listening to these whack jobs on TV or radio,It's no wonder that the women of today are depressed

Man, I don't know...
...I'm married. The only thing I know about women is that I don't know.

This article makes many good points
I'd like to add something. While I do not believe society or anyone in it needs to change to combat depression in individuals, we do have a youth and ideal beauty obsessed culture that many women fall prey to.

Women do not age as well as men and the standard for what is considered beautiful/desirable is different. many women copare themselves to the 20 something airbrushed and computer enhanced models that saturate all venues of media and come away feeling awful. In my experience, it is overweight girls in schools who face the brand of oppression and cruelty countless minority groups imagine they face. As much as I detest Hillary Clinton, her pantsuits and thighs often came up as subject matter regarding her.
Teen girls I work with are typically terrified of aging and becoming "an ugly old woman of 40", and many men in their 40's and 50's who reenter the dating world want 20 or 30 somethings, not women their own ages.

I can see how this can influence depression.



Cally: Which wave?
"The first wave - where women were held equal to men according to the LAW?"

Look at the ulterior motives of Feminism in general: “First Wave” Feminism was ostensibly sold as “equality of opportunity.” This is perfectly reasonable. The book “Why Men Earn More”, by Dr Warren Farrell, extensively documents that when women are willing to make the same choices (same education major, same profession, same work hours, same work load, same personal sacrifices, etc.) as their male counterparts, women earn as much if not more than men. The problem is most women aren’t willing to make those choices.

"The second, where women were (supposedly) given equality in the workplace?"

When 1st wave feminism resulted in a failure to produce enough engineers & scientists to suit feminists, “Second wave” Feminism became all about allowing over-privileged women “equality of outcome” (e.g., Affirmative Action, quotas, Title IX, etc.) in the public domain while retaining their domestic power-base monopoly. Women are quite sexist when it comes to who has the choice of staying at home vice being the ambulatory wallet. Women may be sexually-objectified but men are “success” objectified by women.

This is the real world
Anyone who thinks that married women can't become depressed -- that it's only a singles affliction -- isn't living in the real world. There are many happy single people, some of whom, by the way, are engaged or otherwise encumbered. Posts by "Take Back the Government" and their ilk make me embarrassed to call myself a conservative. I'm divorced and glad for it.

Cally: Which wave? (cont'd)
“Or third, where women are seeking equality within the home - where men are expected just as much as women to do the housework and care for their children?”

Really? “Third wave” Feminism will be about overt “female-chauvinism” in the guise of gender Marxism: “Comparable worth”, e.g., education majors (80% women) should be paid the same as engineers (80% men.) Never mind that a post industrial, information technology-driven economy needs engineers more than education majors. Never mind that education majors have the lowest average SAT and GRE test scores of any academic major. Never mind that engineers work more days and longer hours & actually have to produce a “quantifiable” product.

Housework? What about the traditional dirty, often dangerous, time-consuming, analytic male “project-oriented” housework that is completely ignored by female-chauvinists: replace/re-wire dishwasher, move 8 tons of river rock around the pool area, repair sprinkler piping, inspect crawl space, design/administer home WLAN, refurbish/overhaul bathroom, install horizontal blinds, residential landscaping, etc. Most women have yet to step up the plate & assume their “fair share” of said activities. The only “project-oriented” work most wives are willing to undertake is of course unilaterally spending 80% of family discretionary income when only about 60% of women work outside of the home. It's a sacrifice someone had to make.

Right on, So true...
This is a direct hit on the modern woman and it hit’s the woman, not the nail, right on the head. Lord knows they need to be as I for one cannot stand today’s woman however folks blame the men for causing this mess. Heck, I cannot even think of an animal that treats its own kind as bad as a woman now dose. Except maybe the Black Widow Spider!

The Seductiveness of Melancholy
I don't know if the men are aware of this, but women sometimes enjoy indulging in momehts of bittersweet reverie.

We love to cry at sad movies, sad books and sad somebody-done-somebody-wrong songs.

We savor poignant moments and sit blissfully in the space between melancholy and joy, savoring the moment.

I think that this is part of the nature of women, part of our genes and hormones, and can be seen in all of the things that women enjoy.

Then, one day, we get stuck in the melancholia, and go deeper and deeper, like sinking into quicksand. We don't know why we are so sad, and can't remember those times when we enjoyed a good cry.

This, I believe, is where our natures will take us if we don't know how to pull out. We become like the Blue Angels, following the lead of our emotions *splat* into the ground, not realizing that it is time to pull up on the joy stick and abandon the path to destruction.

Lisa: Really?
"I think if every woman in the world ...stopped having sex even the affections of the lowliest woman would increase in value."

The problem is the fact that women by their nature are just as interested in sex than men. In fact, radical feminism & a paternal legal system have allowed many women to return to their amoral promiscuous nature- back to the days before the “Patriarchy” imposed their “Judeo-Christian” morals upon the female worshippers of every tree & stone. Today, it apparently takes a village, i.e., welfare state to support & raise a child.


Nee: The Hours
I rented that movie once, and fell asleep.

I would rather watch Jaws.

Lisa: really? (Cont'd)
If US society were interested in mitigating said situation & if society actually cared about the welfare of children, it might start by removing the “implied” legal standard that children are the sole “property” of their biological mothers from conception to legal adulthood. To begin with, despite having access to over a dozen forms of birth control (men only have access to two) the “virtuous” gender unilaterally exercises its "reproductive rights" 1.4M (30% of children conceived) times annually (w/o considering the corresponding responsibilities) by aborting, committing infanticide, & outright abandoning their children for purely capricious & arbitrary reasons. Additionally, American women bring about 70% of divorce actions (the “No-Fault” Divorce legal movement was started by the National Association of Women Lawyers in 1960), have children out of wedlock at least 37% of the time, and are invariably “entitled” to subsidized housing, welfare, food stamps, child custody, child support, alimony, etc. At least 4% of all married women commit the most despite form of domestic abuse: Paternity fraud. Women are of course the biggest sexual/financial exploiters of multiple partners. Their near monopoly with respect to child custody results in the fact that women are twice as likely to commit child abuse & neglect. Then there’s the matter of abuse committed by non-biological parents/partners. It would seem, in the absence of evidence of abuse, that default shared custody would be in the best interest of the nation’s children. Unfortunately, in this current state of institutionalized misandry, when all things female are sacrosanct and beyond reproach, maintaining the consequence-free, responsibility-optional lifestyles of irresponsible women children trumps the interests of this nation’s children. They are their mother’s “property” after all. Isn’t gender-feminism wonderful? Still think that men are the “empowered gender”?

Depression
I agree with:
"My take would be that women like solid stable relationships and get a lot of satisfaction out of motherhood and close family. All of these things are becoming more scarce, and women feel the lack."
Except that I would add that men also like stable relationships, a close family, and, yes, even fatherhood. The problem for women is, like oldsocialworker says, once they pass age 35, it gets very difficult to accomplish this, since men their age want the under-age-35 women. So what's a baby boomer single woman to do? Answer: rise in depression amongst women.

Alternatively,
People in general get depressed when they feel that the situation is beyond their control. (Think: standing on the deck of the Titanic watching the last lifeboat float away.) Maybe women are more willing to acknowledge feeling depressed when in out-of-control situations? Men are notorious for never admitting to any emotion that makes them seem "weak", even if they are feeling it. It could be that the depression rates are the same, but women are more willing to admit to feeling depressed than are men.

Men and Women
Men don't want to be married to someone who is perpetually depressed.

They also don't want to be married to someone who is completely self-centered, overspending, overeating, nagging, whining, unreliable, ungrateful, disloyal, and disrespectful.

I'd be depressed, too, if I was told I could have it all and do it all well without compromise and I bought into it, only to discover it was a lie.

FEMINISM FAILED...surprise surprise!!!!
outstanding piece mr prager!! all true. feminism failed because of its root. feminists are greedy and mad because their dad, grandfather, etc was abusive and they hate men. but many people go thru that and turn out to be fine people. they need to take responsibility for their emotions and actions; and us men need to learn to stand up to them!!



chad s.
Louisiana

Rose
Mountain Rose said: "This, I believe, is where our natures will take us if we don't know how to pull out. We become like the Blue Angels, following the lead of our emotions *splat* into the ground, not realizing that it is time to pull up on the joy stick and abandon the path to destruction."

At one time were women taught how to deal with this, but aren't anymore?

Women
Are more emotional biologically to begin with. As to the premise advanced by Dennis Prager, if I might paraphrase a racist demagogue, “Feminism’s Chickens are coming home to roost.”

Rose
That wasn't the Blues, it was the Thunderbirds.

Demosthenes - I'll bet you are not
married.

Anyone who has ever been married for more than a couple of years knows that men want sex at least 20 times more often than women.

During the honeymoon period, women enjoy sex because it is ROMANTIC. When the romance goes out of the marriage, the woman's desire for sex goes with it.

The man, whose sex drive is biologically relentless, can't just stop having sex (unless he is low in testosterone, or is repelled by his wife), and starts to feel rejected unless the wife gives him a regular roll in the hay, regardless of her feelings.

When women are brainwashed by the Lefties and try to act like alley cats, they wind up like the increasing number of college girls who are chronically depressed.

GeorgiaGal: weakness
Men are notorious for never admitting to any emotion that makes them seem "weak", even if they are feeling it. It could be that the depression rates are the same, but women are more willing to admit to feeling depressed than are men.

A man's greatest weakness is their illusion of strength...A woman's greatest strength is her illusion of weakness.

It is ironic that Mr. Prager failed to mention that men are twice as successful as women at committing suicide.

God Help Me . . .
But I actually agree with what Lilly said at post #32. When I read this, I was actually a little disappointed in Prager because I usually agree with his columns.

But this was way out there. I mean, I got the feeling that, in Prager's opinion, the only way we women could avoid depression was if we stopped wanting to have careers, stayed home with the kids, stopped cursing, etc.

Like a pat on the head - "Oh, you poor dear, maybe you should lie down, you must have the vapors. Remember this is man's work."

What Prager's column didn't really address is WHY the study found that more women are suffering from depression than ever before.

And Lilly's points are valid - depression, like many other things, is as old as time. We diagnose more today because we can; same with kids with ADHD or autism - more numbers becaue people are actually getting properly diagnosed [autism] or overdiagnosed [ADHD].

Economics of Despair
There was an Enjoli commercial in the late 70's that had a pretty blonde woman in a business suit coming through an apartment door singing "I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan, and never let you forget you're a man...Cause I'm a woman," etc. This encapsulates the practical problem resulting from feminism--rising expectations. Our mothers may have gone into the workplace willingly; we have to. Pick any metric you like--the cost of housing or a durable good--as a multiple of the average wage, compare now to 30 years ago, and the economic impact of feminism becomes obvious. (There's a book out there that does this--"The Double Income Trap," or something similar.) And yes, I realize that consumerism has run rampant over the same timespan. So has debt. So before you condemn us for over-emotionality, you try taking on the working, the housekeeping, the child management, and the seduction responsibilities for a bit, and see how you do. They say that depression is anger turned inward; it might be useful to think about what otherwise nice, decent, non-militant women have to be angry about in the new millenium.

Jeffrey
Gee, that is an interesting question.

I would say that the Church will sometimes teach young hormonal women how to manage their emotions, if there is a good Womans Ministry, where wise older women mentor the younger gals, and not just get together for a scrap-booking.

I would say that in the old days, little girls had their mommies at home to teach them about how to be women. They had access to their aunties and grandmas as well, because of the greater presence of the extended family, so they had a better idea of how to grow into a well-adjusted woman.

That way, if their mother hadn't grown up sufficiently, there were other mature women to help guide her.

NOWDAYS, girls are raised in day care centers, run by Feminazi activists, or by nannies who can't speak English.

Girls are much more isolated today. No wonder they spend all their free time text messaging each other.

God Help Me . . .Part 2 . . .
To me, this is the same type of argument feminists make about there still being sexism in the engineering, math and science fields (and other careers) because of NUMBERS. There are only 2 women engineers, so it must be sexism (the try for the same for race, BTW).

But those NUMBERS don't tell you why? Maybe because women are choosing careers they are interested in, that are conducive to starting a family (since the business world still uses a 1950s model to run instead of evolving into the 21st century where many parents BOTH have to work for ECONOMIC reasons not because we are greedy and live in McMansions with big fat SUVs).

Same here - WHY are the women depressed. Does the study answer that? Because it could be any number of reasons and some may include the need to have it all and getting stressed about doing everything. But there could be other reasons as well - Post-partum depression, which can begin and linger for months and may not even start until many months later (as happened to me), and which has nothing to do with "feminism" and has everything to do with chemical reactions in the body. Men don't get that kind of depression because men don't have the babies and don't have the same hormones.

So, really, this is one of those columns that Prager used to just spout something about feminism (and I am no "feminist", BTW and disagree with what has become political feminism and makes no sense and is not about equality of opportunity anymore) with no support for it.

He can do better and he should do better.

FMO
He he he

Mountain Rose: Wrong
"The man, whose sex drive is biologically relentless, can't just stop having sex (unless he is low in testosterone, or is repelled by his wife), and starts to feel rejected unless the wife gives him a regular roll in the hay, regardless of her feelings."

From which reality do you hail? The amoral woman, unhibited my Judeo-Christian morality, will have sex w/ as many men as she can in order to maximize the genetic diversity of her children- as long as she thinks she won't get caught. Nearly 60% OF ALL WIVES WILL CHEAT ON THEIR HUSBANDS. DNA studies have revealed that 4-10% of all married women commit the most despicable form of domestic abuse: Paternity Fraud.

Is it any wonder why 80% of all women surveyed don't support manditory paternity testing?

Why so hysterical, Dennis?
Dennis Prager doesn't know the first thing about feminism, but that does not bother him. Also the fact that depression (formerly known as melancholia)is a complex condition that people have struggled for centuries to understand is no obstacle for Dennis Prager. He starts by assuming that women's depression is caused by feminism, and then concludes that, yes, women's depression is caused by feminism. But what does he mean when he says feminism? Is he aware of any of the debates taking place within feminism? Does he know anything about the history of feminism? Does he have any interest in knowing what modern feminists' goals are? Clearly not--although feminists write books quite frequently, Dennis Prager seems never to have read a single one of them.

I'm sory
this is the stupidest article I have ever read.

Mountain Rose: Wrong#2
Actually, I have been married rather happily for nearly 20 years. I married a woman nearly a decade my senior because I wanted a wife that would approach my emotional maturity. Speaking as Service Academy-educated, DoD Scientist, Reserve Officer & Doctor’s Wife (being a MAN, I suffer all the neglect but receive none of the privileges) - I am the MAN behind the woman, raising two(2) kids and an MD FACP in addition the working two (2) jobs, & I am not afraid of relaying this information.

Interestingly enough, I’ve taught my son not to “sexually objectify” women, but I’ve also taught him about the aforementioned institutionalized discrimination that he will be subjected to as a male. I have made him aware that he is a “Target” in a society with institutionalized antipathy to the men, e.g. irresponsible men are accorded financial penalties at best and prison at worst, whereas irresponsible women are coddled by American Society. Additionally, I’ve taught my daughter not to view men as “success” (i.e., ambulatory wallets), and about her many RESPONSIBILITIES as a legally franchised individual that correspond to her many RIGHTS & PRIVILEGES as an American female, i.e, taking responsibility for her personal actions rather than inventing a ubiquitous, though undefined “Patriarchy” upon which to blame for all her future personal set backs.

Since we’re playing the invalidation game, I’ll bet that none of the men in your life have had the audacity to said NO to you or question your thought processes. I’ll bet that you haven’t a college degree w/ the word “SCIENCE” actually printed on it…

I
have been blessed, married to a MAN going on 47 years, 6 kids (one of them adopted) and a gang of grandkids. I was fired from my job when I became engaged back in the 60's. The boss gave me a choice, my man or my job. I made the best choice, even though the company would have sent me to school to further my education.
After growing up with a working mother, coming home to an empty house since age 7, I decided I wouldn't do that to my kids. I was very jealous about who would be influencing my growing children, and am just as jealous as to who would influence my grandson whose mom works..so
I am taking care of him.
Our marriage was based on prayer, we believe
from our own experience that God has that special person and is just waiting for us to ask. My husband has gone through job losses too, it's made him stronger as a man of faith.
And of all the things I respect him for, it's his faith and trust in God I respect the most.
BytheOcean: That makes three of us. I enjoy
men's company and conversation more, they make more sense than most females.
I'm old fashioned, I enjoy having men open doors, and they ALWAYS get a smile and thank you. I wish the mothers of young men would
teach their sons to have the same courtesy. I've had young healthy men push past me as I've gone through doors, or past me as I walk the Mall, and heaven forbid they'd thing to offer me a seat.
There is one thing that feminism has destroyed
that is just unforgiveable..the wolf whistle.


Prima Volta: Really?
"Dennis Prager doesn't know the first thing about feminism, but that does not bother him..."

What aspect of feminism exists that wasn't cited by Chaucer centuries ago via his story concerning the "Wife of Bath." What is feminism other than women "wanting their own way" in all things.

Again, Feminism Doesn't Cause Depression
People get depressed over:

Money Problems

Health Issues

Relationship Issues

Death of a family member or friend


***Compounding Everyday Issues: The furnance needs to be replaced, your car broke down, the garage door is off its hinges, the water heater broke, the cable doesn't work, and the ceiling is leaking water.

The above happened to me in 1 month. I was VERY depressed. Why? Not because of sneaky bitter feminism!!! It was because in one month I shelled out about $4000 to fix everything that chose to collapse one after the other. Real life can do that to any person.

Tell me, men...If the ahove happened to you, wouldn't you be bummed out just slightly? Or is it just feminism?

Amen, TMD!
I am no militant feminist. I go to work everyday, go to the gym after work every day. Then I get to go home and make dinner, clean up after dinner. Keep the house clean, I will not live in filth. I help with yard work and and other task my husband needs help with around the house. My husband can only do one thing at a time. If dinner was up to him we would be eating at midnight. I walk around in a constant state of pissed off and to make matters worse I am 48 and guess what is starting to happen. I don't know if I'm depressed, but I sure am fed up.

Shells
Kudos to you for your post #72! Exactly. Someone in this thread also made an off-handed comment about how his wife just yelled at him "for no reason" and he told his son "that's just how women are".

Really? We like to yell or get upset for "no reason"? Maybe it sounds like "no reason" to you men because you men have selective hearing or because you men don't care about our feelings at all regarding certain things and just blow us off, because maybe, ah, it's our time of the month! D'oh!

Yes, women can get catty and naggy, but believe you me, so can men and my husband can do that sometimes to me. I have to stand up and take him down a bit because when I try to do something similar, he acts like I'm "giving him orders". Yeah, right.

And my husband is my no means a Neanderthal, but sometimes he forgets that everything doesn't have to be his way, just like everything doesn't have to be my way. We both have very strong personalities and we're both only children, so it makes the relationship difficult at times and it must be worked at. It needs to be "equal" in the sense that we are both to be respected by each other and not one lording over the other.

As Shells, said, depression can be brought on by any number of things. That's not "feminism". That's life.

TRUCE! TRUCE!
One other thing, before this thread becomes a Gender War . . .

Many of the problems men and women have with each other is a lack of commuication. And I can see that just from this thread. Maybe the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" idea has been debunked (I don't usually keep up with that stuff), but from what I remember - it really was about how different we can be regarding certain things, due to biology and to how we are raised, and how this gets lost in not communicating with one another.

Many of the fights my husband and I have had were because of a lack of communication (the other half are because we're both only children and are used to having things "our way" for the most part). If we had communicated properly, not made assumptions, etc., then we wouldn't have fought.

The fact is that "feminism" is not necessarily the root of all evil and we women are not being "oppressed" by the patriarchal society. We have so much more than our mothers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers ever had and we should be grateful and keep our eyes on the prize - Equality of Opportunity.

I understand why men feel defensive. It's the same reason why whites feel defensive. If you've been picked at long enough, you are going to snap.

But whites need to know that not all black people hate them and men need to know that not all women are hairy, bra-burning, rabid feminazis with a goal of castrating every men on Earth.

Let's treat each other like INDIVIDUALS, like HUMAN BEINGS, first. Because when we do that, it is less likely that a "war" will break out between us.

It reminds me of the church song: "Let there be peace on Earth and let it begin with me . . ."

Cheers.

Ladykrystna
Thank you! You know, Dennis wrote an article just like this a month or so ago, how feminism attributes to unhappiness in women, and I called baloney on that article too.

The thing is, people like to blame everyday negative factors that happen in our lives on something. If Dennis were around way way back when, there would be more witches burned at Salem.

I admit, I get angry and sullen when that monthly hormone hurricane comes. Every woman gets effected one way or another by it, some more worse than others.

But not just that, life can make anyone get the blues. I can't tell you as a kid on my block how many seemingly happy fathers killed themselves--maybe like 4 dads. They seemed just fine, but obviously life was a little too much for them, they never showed it, and as a result of it all, they all committed suicide, go figure.

Was that feminism? No.

No one said life is easy. Some people have been raised to pull themselves back up by their bootstraps and get cracking back into the game of life. Others simply wallow and whine and consider it the end of days.

This ain't feminism. It's being human.

Demosthenes
Misogyny and feminism are not the same thing. I get the feeling you need things spelled out for you, so I will tell you that The Wife of Bath is a misogynist text with the underlying moral message that women who are not silent and chaste are monstrous. If you would like to read a feminist text, a good place to start would be Mary Wollstonecraft's _A Vindication of the Rights of Women_.

Shells-- you forgot

Depression from generations of abandoning the traditional family, and having no support system, except for a couple of self-centered gals at work, who will climb over you with their stiletto heels in your face to get up the corporate ladder.

You forget depression when you reach middle age and realize that you turned up your nose at marriage, and the men your age, given the choice between you and a 20-year-old hot tamale with loose morals will choose the other. Women who have wisely chosen a highly moral husband for life don't face this possibility as much.

You forget depression from the fact that you have reached middle age, and you chose to abort all the babies you conceived, that you chose to spread your legs without discernment, and you got an infection that blocked your tubes, and when your clock was ticking loudly, you couldn't conceive any more. Now you are alone, without a husband, without a grownup daughter to enjoy, and without even prospect of a date.

But hey! You can always shack up with another gal in comfy shoes.

Small comfort, as you watch all the Asian and Russian immigrant girls snatch up all the good men.

Dennis
I can't think of anyone in a better position to comment on women/feminism than Dennis Praeger.


The American Ninotchka
I am a fan of old movies, and among my favorites is Ninotchka, starring Gretta Garbo and Melvin Douglas.

Ninotchka is a Russian woman, who dresses in masculine clothing, believes that there are no differences beteen men and women, and that there is no such thing as love, only biological urges.

She is sent to Paris by the Kremlin to retreive jewels that belonged to Russian royalty before the revolution, because the Soviets insist they belong to the people.

She meets the lawyer for the Duchess who has the jewels, and gradually falls in love, and gets in touch with her femininity. When she returns to the Soviet Union, she realizes how empty and colorless her life without love, beauty and joy had been.

It is ironic that the Russian girls today, once they were free to be themselves, are highly in touch with their feminity, and are prized by American men as mail-order brides.

Meanwhile, American women, through the propaganda machine of the radical Left, have become modern-day Ninotchkas, wearing men's clothing and out of touch with the joy of being a feminine woman, in love with a masculine man.

Go for already happy foreign women
No need to wonder why men are running for the borders and dating foreign women and eventually moving to paradise to raise *happy* families with happy women. Even IMBRA, a law promoted by obviously depressed women (aka feminists), cannot stop this trend.

http://www.online-dating-rights.com/forum/index.php

Prima Volta
Regarding The Wife of Bath: reminds me of Taming of the Shrew by William Shakespeare.

This is why I thought it was hilarious when a lesbian tried to convince me that Shakespeare was REALLY a woman.

Mountain Rose . . .
Judgmental much?

And thank you for painting EVERY woman (except for yourself, I guess, and other women who are members of your church and stay at home with the kids and bake cookies and make their man a martini when he comes home from a hard day at work - oh, I'm sorry, am I stereotyping you?), as man-clothes wearing, hairy arm-pitted, spinsters who had multiple abortions and now have an STD.

(Speaking of which) Stereotypical much?

The fact is that, as I said in my first post - no one hear has linked to any study that shows that the majority of women suffering with and diagnosed with depression today are women who are single, childless and career-minded, or even married, with children or childless, and career-minded.

People like Shells and Lilly (yes, even her) and I, recognize that of course that could be part of the problem (stress from trying to "have it all"), but it's not the ONLY reason and demonizing people doesn't get the problem solved, does it?

Depression is a serious mental illness and should be treated with respect and ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, and not used to make political points. I hate it when the Left does it and I hate it when the Right does it.

Sometimes things are just HUMAN problems and not the result of some conspiracy theory.

Gee whiz!

Conservative Ads
Maybe women are depressed because the men of townhall are being subjected to ads for Asian singles like the one I see at the top of this page for chnlove.com.
I have to admit though that the 36 Year old Tianjin is smiling really big. Maybe just the American women are depressed.

My wife is going to be suprised when she finds out how depressed she is by having a child AND a career. She always seemed so happy too.

And one other thing . . .
Not all women are zoned to be SAHMs. There is not one "domesticated" bone in my body and my parents can attest to that. I was never interested in learning how to cook and I cleaned because it was one of my chores.

While I would have liked to stay at home until my kids were in school full time, it didn't work out financially. It's easy to make assumptions about people you do not know and stereotype people to make yourself feel better.

If true feminism is about anything, it is about CHOICE. You choose to stay at home, I choose not to. Both choices are morally neutral inasmuch as one needs to do for oneself what is in one's best interest and the interest of their family. If you couldn't imagine being away from your kids and putting them in daycare and you feel better being at home, and you can do it without financial ruin, then by all means do so.

If you feel better at work and having your kids in trustworthy hands, and/or you need to work for financial reasons, then by all means to do so.

I think it's when people (and women in particular) don't do what is in THEIR best interest and instead give in to whatever society is telling them (and believe me, society still gives women mixed messages), then they will be unhappy.

A SAHM could be depressed because as much as she loves her children, she wishes she could continue with a career she loves.

A working mom could be depressed because she'd rather be at home with the kids and she can't be.

So, again, why don't we just call a truce on this because none of us really has the answer or knows better than the other.

Cheers.

Basis of Prager's Column
Or does it even have one.

I googled it all and the first hit was a June 2008 study supporting one of Prager's starting point, i.e. that women are more depressed than men. On teh other hand, I didn't find anything that indicated rates of depression for women have changed significantly. I suggest this may be because the issue wasn't much discussed or researched until fairly recently.

But that's not the point. There is voluminous material on potential causes for depression. Some of the research suggests there are inherently female chemical issues. A prior history of abuse is considered. Poverty is certainly a factor and more women are poor. Body image and the effect of the beauty industry is tied to depression as well.

But the research does not support what Prager claims to be the case. If Prager really did want to know why women are more depressed, he could have looked into it. It appears what he really wanted was just an excuse to lash out at feminism.

Even if he's right, here's the actual result. Being a personally, Professionally, socially, and financially independent person is harder than living in a state of permanent childhood, taken care of by a big strong man.

Who could have guessed that?



Depressed Women
I find many points in this article as being false, but do agree that many women are depressed.

The thesis that women are not feminine is false. Many women are feminine in their own right. Femininity is a state of mind and being. I am a feminine woman, by this I feel that I don't have to challenge and beat every man I encounter. Many women are confused about femininity. They feel that to be feminine they need to be the Joan Cleavers of this society. Laura Bush is very feminine.

To be feminine is to enjoy being a female, you may work many hours a day, stay at home, or work part time. You just need to relax and not fight yourself and others all the time. As women we have many distinctive qualities, just accept yourself, let your inherit nature drive you.

Explore what being a woman is all about.

Jack
HOORAY!!!! Great post and you proved the point of my original post - this is just another "rant" and nothing more.

And you know, some of you "traditionalists" need to take your argument through to its logical conclusion:

If women who want to have children should stay at home with their children, then, logically, they should not bother with college or starting a career because it would be wasted money, no?

Which means, what YOU really mean is that "breeding women" should be exactly the way they were in the 1950s - a woman's place is in the kitchen and only single girls with no children can work and have careers and then they are put down for being spinsters.

Really, you need to read your posts out loud, say your thoughts out loud and really think about what you are saying.

And why is it that just because some bad apples hijacked the "feminist" movement, that means we have to go backward in time. Why do people (regardless of political party) insist on throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

Does anyone actually want to do anything about the problems we have or just BMW about them?

Are we AmeriCANS or AmeriCANTS?

Part 2
And maybe that's one of the problems I've had with "conservatives" - they tend to want to edge back the clock instead of finding new innovative ways to keep certain traditions but in a new era (like the, ah, 21st century, instead of the 17th century).

How about acknowledging that even "traditional" women (not just radical feminists) may have to go to work and how do we help that work for them, rather than demonizing them because we disagree with it?

Why is everything, whether it comes from the Left or the Right, about putting others down to elevate ourselves and make ourselves feel better about our choices? Why is it about putting people down instead of lending a hand to help out and I'm not talking about government programs, I'm talking about an organic change in our society where we care a little bit more about one another instead of hating one another.

Remember "divide and conquer". That's what our society and government are doing to us and that's why everything is "status quo" and nothing ever improves or gets done.

Honestly, folks. Let's not turn on each other. Let's work together toward a mutually beneficial resolution to our country's problems.

Rose
It was a tragic training accident and the nation lost several fine aviators and patriots.

By the way, you guys are offering a much more cogent discussion than was presented in this article.

Ladykrystyna Writes ?
Honestly, folks. Let's not turn on each other. Let's work together toward a mutually beneficial resolution to our country's problems.
____________________________________________________________
Madam are you talking about Oboma and (changing) to Socialism one suspects. Conservatives ...... NO WAY .
1-FIrst off Liberals are for HIGH TAX and Huge Welfare Programs .
We are not !
2- Your Fore abortion but against the death penalty .
3 - Liberals hate Capitalism ...... Conservatives Believe it it !
4- You Liberals want to copy Europe .... We don't
5- You think the World is burning up ....... We don't .
6- You against drilling for our own Oil , Nuclear power and clean coal .We are fore !!
7-Liberals think there is no War on Terrorism . We Conservatives know better .
8-You hate our Military and trust your friends in the media ..... We don't !
9- You think the ACLU is a good thing ... We Don't !
10-We find no problem with Pray in Public but you Liberals do
11- You believe in GAY Marriage .......We don't .
12- You want Government regulating and running our lives ... we don't
13-You love Unions ..We don't
14-You believe in Collectivism .. We believe in Individualism .
15- You Think Karl MARX got it right but the players were wrong .
16- You admire Oboma , Teddy kennedy , Nancy Polosi , Barbara Boxer .We don't .
WHEN DO YOU CONVERT TO CONSERVATIVE VALUES ETHICS AND PRINCIPLES ?
YOU WANT ....... NOR WILL I CONVERT TO SOCIALISM/ MARXISM !
NO MIDDLE GROUND AFTER THE SMOKE IS GONE .

Kilgore Trout...Conservative Ads?

The "Singles" Ads you are seeing on Townhall have nothing to do with Townhall's website. "Cookies" are dropped onto your computer from search engines, and these Cookies decide which Ads to run for you as an individual.

The "Cookies" store and detect your search habits and the search habits of anyone using your computer. The search engine then finds "appropriate" Ad material for you as an individual.

If you're seeing racy Ads on Townhall, you may wish to change your search habits. I have never seen anything racier than a blond lady wearing a t-shirt.

LADYkrystyna Writes ?

Subject: Part 2
And maybe that's one of the problems I've had with "conservatives" - they tend to want to edge back the clock instead of finding new

Subject: Part 2
And maybe that's one of the problems I've had with "conservatives" - they tend to want to edge back the clock instead of finding new innovative ways to keep certain traditions but in a new era (like the, ah, 21st century, instead of the 17th century). ways to keep certain traditions but in a new era (like the, ah, 21st century, instead of the 17th century).
__________________
How can I thank you Libearl TREE HUGGERS enough for INNOVATIVE Corn in my Gas tank ..MAKING IT THE GREATEST BLUNDER AND HOAX ON AMERICA IN 50 YEARS . Even Our Liberal Senator in my state said last week !
RICE , WHEAT , SOY TRIPPLED IN THE LAST TWO YEARS .
CORN TWO YEARS AGO WAS $ 2.61 NOT SUD, BY THE FEDS AT 51 CENT A BUSHEL ,,CORN IS $6.61 A BUSHEL TODAY .
NOT TO MENTION DRIVING THE PRICES UP TO THE POINT IT MAKES ALL NATIONS POORER AND HUNGRY-ERRRRR !
SO WHAT IS THE ANSWER FROM YOU "INNOVATIVE "LIBERALS GETTING OUT OF THE CORN GAS BUSINESS ?
WE WILL FARM 14 % MORE CORN IN AMERICA NEXT YEAR !
LIBERALS KNOW LESS ABOUT COMMON SENSE AND ECONOMICS THAN DOES AL GORE AND KARL MARX .


A more likely theory
I agree with previous posters who suggested that the depression rates may not be as different between men and women as reported. I think women are more likely to talk about their problems and go in and get diagnosed than men. Men are more likely to just try to tough it out. They are raised to think that it is a good thing to be strong, to be able to handle it, to be in control. Not all guys are like this but I think enough to skew the rates for diagnosing depression. I know from myself that I never talk about my problems with friends. I'll talk about minor complaints or things that irritate me. But I never talk about problems. Those things I feel I just need to figure out on my own.

I also don't really buy this theory that its feminism's fault that women are depressed. Feminism is basically just freedom. Women are free to make whatever good or bad decisions they want. And they'll be happy or unhappy depending on the choices they make. It's true that sometimes having too many choices can make you unhappy and it is sometimes better to restrain your appetites within certain limits. But hey, each person has to find out that out for himself (or herself).

Progress?? Not according to Dennis...
TeaParty in Post#69 wrote: "I was fired from my job when I became engaged back in the 60's. The boss gave me a choice, my man or my job."

Yet, people around TH -- and especially Dennis Prager -- still pine for the "good old days" of their youth. Is that kind of behavior above really what we want to go back to? Forcing people to make those choices? Allowing a business to fire someone because they got engaged?

Businesses used to be able to hire/fire for any reason they wanted: race, gender, etc... Isn't it better now that we don't allow that?

Dennis is talking out of his butt, however there will always be people who agree with him. Luckily, the mojority of people agree with equality and opportunity...and the right to make a choice about what people want to do with their lives, be it career or family or both.

ReCon-USMC
Well, have you got me pegged wrong. I'm what they call an Independent Conservative/Libertarian. On almost all economic/fiscal issues, I am conservative. On national security and defense, I am conservative (and have supported the War in Iraq from day one). On social issues, I may be more "liberal", but I consider it more libertarian than liberal, only because I truly believe that we need to leave government out of my personal life, my business life, etc. I am pro-choice, but I am also pro-guns.

Just because I don't agree with Prager's piece or what some Neanderthals have said on this thread doesn't mean I'm a die-hard liberal.

ReCon-USMC, Part 2
Let's break it down, shall we?

1. I am not for high taxes and welfare programs.
2. I support the death penalty and I am pro-choice.
3. I love capitalism and firmly believe in it.
4. I don't have any desire to copy Europe. I am American first, last and always.
5. I do not "believe" in global warming. I think its a crock.
6. I want us to drill, drill, drill, wherever and whenever.
7. I know there is a War on Terrorism, my husband will be fighting it during his 2nd tour and I support him and the War in all of its permutations, including torture when necessary.
8. As I said, my husband is Army Reserve and I support the military and love the military. HOORAH!

ReCon-USMC, Part 3
9. I hate the ACLU because they are hypocritical idiots.
10. I have no problem with people praying in public, but I don't see why we think we need to have Christianity in public schools where many of the students are not Christian. If you want to be religious and teach your children your religion, go for it. I love Christmas decorations on all kinds of public and private property; I say "Merry Christmas!" even though I'm an agnostic.
11. I have no problem with gay marriage (that's my libertarian side coming out). I just don't like how they went about getting it. I think there is a better way other than forcing it on a society that is not yet ready for it.
12. I hate the Government running my life, whether it be fiscally or socially (hence the reason why I have no problem with gay marriage - it's none of the government's business!).
13. I don't like Unions. I think they are petty and whiney and although they gave us the 40 hour work week, they are now so pathetic and they ruin it for the rest of us.
14. I absolutely believe in Individualism. 100%.
15. I think Karl Marx's idea sounded good on paper, but does not work in the real world, as is obvious by the fall of the Soviet Union and the fact that the Chinese are getting more and more capitalistic. And the Europeans will go bankrupt with all of their social programs and no new people being born to keep it running.
16. I will never vote for Obama (I'm probably going to vote McCain or a libertarian if they are on the ticket). I hate Kennedy, Pelosi, Boxer and many other liberal congresspeople.

My call was not to convert to any one side or the other, but rather to discover our common goals and then work towards that in the best way possible (which most likely would be a conservative way on many things and a libertarian way on others).

SO THERE! :p

Try to pigeonhole me, will you?

Cheers.

Depression in Women
My e-mail to Dennis:

"Brace yourself for the blast of vilification coming your way for your insight and courage.

Thank you for this moment of profound truth.

I wonder too how many men are secretly pleased at being "let off the hook" by feminists so that they don't have to be courageous males, defending their women and children and society?"

There are so many women now in their 40's who have never married, who wanted to do so, or are divorced and bitter. How many have insisted on their "rights?" I read somewhere that Latina and Asian women are not as anti-male as white women and that is why so many white men are chosing them to date and marry.

If a man cannot be the head of his family, why should he support and defend it? Is there any husband who when he hears a noise in the house, asks his wife to find out what it is?

I love having a husband -- 47 years of lucky.

ladykrystyna
Good posts!


ReCon-USMC, Post 3:46 pm
Man, oh man. Did somebody forget their meds this morning? Take the CAPSLOCK off and RE-FRICKIN-LAX Dude!

May I refer you to my last 3 posts in response to yours where I'm sure that I will have allayed most of your "fears" about me.

I am not a Tree Hugger. I am not a "liberal".

As Shoes pointed out in his/her post - is that the kind of world we want - that women go back to the "house" and stay there?

Answer the question, please. Because that's what many of the posters seem to indicate even if they don't out and out say it.

If that is there position, fine; everyone is entitled to their opinion, but they should be honest about it.

And, yes, that's a big step back to another century which was unfortunately not that long ago.

I was fired for no reason when I was 6 months pregnant with my first child, by a man enthralled by his new, feminazi employee who would not get married and have children. She convinced him that it would be the best thing so she could hog all the glory and probably made him think that I would be absent all the time because of my child. I had just bought a house with my husband and was left unemployed (because, you know, despite the law, employers won't hire you if you are pregnant) until after I had my daughter (6 whole months). We survived, but that's the price I had to pay in a society where even a "liberal" employer (he represented Plaintiffs against employers for, wait for it, employment discrimination!) and his femnazi associate see me having babies as a threat to them.

So, you know what, you need to pull your head out of your !@# and look at the REAL WORLD and talk to REAL MEN AND WOMEN and not just the ones at your local church.

We cannot all be pigeonholed to satisfy your need to feel superior.

Lady Krystyna
Gets the Best Posts Award for today. Well and enthusiastically stated opinions.

oldsocialworker
Although you can't see me, I'm blushing.

Seriously, thank you very much.

:)

Cheers!

Actually, It's Prager
who sounds depressed.

I am not only a card carrying liberal, I carry as many liberal cards as I can, with one exception. I do not carry the entire set of feminist cards.

Federal and local governments over-reacted to shoddy data regarding children, child support, spousal abuse, women's wages, and a number of other issues. As a result, we have a number of laws and policies based on feminist ideology rather than actual data. This has resulted in a somewhat understandable backlash against the Democratic Party.

That said, we would do well to remember that feminism is also responsible for massive educational, professional, financial and social gains for women. Even if Prager's claims were true, which they are not, a vast majority of modern women would prefer having the professional and personal freedom of the 21st century than the limited opportunities of the past.



true manhood
Interesting insights, but I have to disagree with our culture continuing to raise men with sexual self-control. In the past, a chief means of control was that many girls would not give in to sexual pressure. Thanks to the sexual revolution, they not only give in, but instigate it. Sex is now viewed as recreation & as such, will never bring the fulfillment that it does within a loving, committed relationship. Recreational sex simply creates a vacuum that cannot be filled, for both men & women. And when women began to assert themselves as strong enough to not need the protection of men, many men became predators instead of protectors. When our college campuses place women & men in the same dorms & handout condoms, yes, women submit to being used as sex objects on a regular basis & then wonder why they're depressed. Even sadder is the fact that conservative parents who should know better pay lots of money to send their children to these campuses to be indoctrinated. When are we going to wise up & say, "ENOUGH!" Both true femininity & true manhood need to be rediscovered & the next generation reclaimed from the dung heap we've allowed it to sink into.

Holding The Door For A women
I too as a writer Above Has Mentioned Have Done the Noble "DOOR BIT" And Young Women Never say THANK YOU"' Its The Older More SECURE In Their Womanhood That say THANK You to a Man. Is This Just a Minor 'hitch'? If It Is,it Speaks Volumes Of The SELF-ABSORBED Coddled American women today in America.

Jack and Aggie
Jack: Once again, very well said. It's nice to hear a liberal admit that perhaps a wing of that side of the aisle may have actually done something wrong, rather than just ditto everything they do. I actually hate it when anybody does that, whether conservative or liberal.

Aggie: actually the holding of doors for anybody, man or woman, may actually be more a sign of the times - people should hold open doors for others, regardless of gender (and I'm sure you agree with that) and one should say "thank you" when it has been done for you.

What's missing in a lot of youth and even older people is the lack of civility and manners, which goes across ages, genders, races, etc.

It brings to mind a bumper sticker I heard about on the radio one morning. It reads: "World peace begins with a turn signal."

AMEN TO THAT!

It's the hormones
The figures on the sex ratio for depression have been stable since the 1940s. Women get depressed and psychosomatic, men get paranoid and obsessive-compulsive. No matter how you set up the social rules nothing is going the change that. Call me a conservative.

Re: Toni @ 4:17pm
Toni wrote: "In the past, a chief means of control was that many girls would not give in to sexual pressure. Thanks to the sexual revolution, they not only give in, but instigate it."

So that's what would be better in your opinion? Women shouldn't instigate sex? It should be used only as a means to reproduce? It shouldn't be enjoyable for both men and women? That's pretty sad.

Toni wrote: "When our college campuses place women & men in the same dorms & handout condoms, yes, women submit to being used as sex objects on a regular basis & then wonder why they're depressed."

So the best way to keep women from becoming depressed is to let them live separately in their own dorms at college? They shouldn't have access to condoms to prevent disease or pregnancy if sex happens to come along, even if they're in a committed relationship? That's also pretty sad.

Toni wrote: "Even sadder is the fact that conservative parents who should know better pay lots of money to send their children to these campuses to be indoctrinated. When are we going to wise up & say, 'ENOUGH!'"

Seriously? So what do you suggest Toni? No formal education? That ought to advance our society right along. You can home-school them, huh? Great idea!! Because those home-schooled kids never turn out to be socially awkward or anything, right? I'll end with my typical "that's pretty sad."

While I may not agree with some/most of of ladykrystyna's "16 points of belief" :), I still respect her for stating her opinions accurately and level-headed. And she understands that progress in this country (or any country) results from equality, not holding people back.

ELVIS TO MOUNTAIN ROSE.......
So that is why my wife no longer makes tamales
and tells me to go buy 'em! Thanks for the tips
you always get my read ever since you said you were open minded to my candidate..that ugly
duckling Mitt Romney! smile! I guess with 250
million dollars in your life..romance may be more available ???!!
I will go out and get some candy and flowers
and sing her a song....what song do you suggest
LOVING YOU,LOVE ME TENDER,ALL SHOOK UP,CANT HELP
FALLING IN LOVE WITH YOU? I know I better not sing...ITS NOW OR NEVER..after all the things you have said!
But males get depressed too! Our family dog
COCHISE is..after I told him John,Obama were
our choices!He's afraid that either one will push for a new law..that all family dogs be replaced ..................................
with a mexican chuahuaua (spelling?!)dog!
Now since he's a guy and not a gal how do I cheer him up?
ELVIS

Goody Mountain Carries Her Axe
Yes Goody Mountain,

While us evil feminists in our high heal shoes, stealing your men folk, aborting all forms of life in our polluted wombs, bending over our desk wearing nothing but our thongs and a invitation, and killing traditional families with our dirty careers and our barren uterus....

What's frightening about you, is that what you just puked out to me in your post meant to insult me, is everything you FEEL. That is everything you FEAR. That is what you BELIEVE.

For those of you unaware, I am a conservative, divorced, childless, work, have a long term boyfriend who I live with on my own property that I own, I support myself, I'm 40 and I'm loving life.

Goody Mountain attacked me for this over a year ago and basically told me I deserved my divorce and I am a loose woman because of my life. I have repeatedly spanked her left and right many times after, and yet, she still can't get enough.

Goody Mountain hates and fears people.




Shoes and Everybody
Glad to see that others are starting to read between the lines with some of the posters.

And thank you, Shoes, for your respectful opinion about my opinions.

See, in America, we learn to live together by agreeing to disagree and not starting a war about it.

Funnily enough, that point was brought up on ABC World News yesterday. It was about Americans belief in God. And the correspondent heading the report (it wasn't Charlie) said that one thing about America is that we can have our little "culture wars", but that never turns into a Civil War, like it does in so many countries.

It's one of those things that people forget about America, and what makes it so great. We can disagree and still live out our day without needing to become suicide bombers when we don't get what we want.

Yes, we've had our riots and we had our Civil War, but I think that the way to improve our society is by working together, which doesn't necessarily mean giving up our core principles.

Shells...
I don't post here a lot, and I'm certainly not Conservative, but why do you worry about what Ms. Judgmental Mountain Rose says about you? It sounds like you've done very well for yourself, you have your head screwed on correctly, and don't need to concern yourself with what some overly judgmental person thinks of your choices. I wouldn't worry about it too much...

Oh, Prairie !@#$, Everybody, Part 2
It's about REALLY REALLY LISTENING to the other side and trying to understand their point of view. That means that the "other side" has to learn how to articulate their position in a rational, logical, non-emotional way so that they other side will be more amenable to hearing your side. No judgments, no accusations.

Many times, liberals and conservatives yell over each other. As someone who's more in the middle (am I a moderate conservative or a conservative liberal - see, lables don't work, do they?), I see this on these threads and on other threads.

People keep asking for a "dialogue" on . . . whatever. But they don't really want a dialogue, they just want to hear themselves speak and have people listen to them and their point of view and agree with them, otherwise they are "wrong", the "enemy", etc.

So, what I said originally still stands - it's about figuring out what the problem is, what is the common goal (examples: fewer/no abortions; less pollution [even putting aside the GW hoax, pollution is not a good thing]; less gun violence; better education; etc.) and then working together for a solution that WORKS FOR MOST EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY, not for your own political party or you personally. That usually means compromising (not your core values, but how you can best respect those core values), negotiating, and perhaps admitting that your approach may sound good (it seems to stick to your core values) but does not work in the real world, and therefore, the alleged solution is not one at all (conservatives have this problem on the abortion issue; liberals have this problem on the gun issue).

That's what I'm talking about when I say "dialogue" or "compromise" or "working together". Nothing gets done if we are divided. United We Stand, remember? How about "live together, die alone"? How about, "divide and conquer"?

Shells
I'm with Shoes on this one. Who gives a flying rat's carcass what she thinks!

But you are right - this is what she FEELS, this is what she FEARS. Again, she has to push YOU down so that SHE feels better about HERSELF. Because you didn't make the choices she made, you are a "loose woman", etc.

And what irks me the most about "conservatives" who are for "less government" and "individuality" and having people keep their noses out other people's business, is that they still think its okay to be that judgmental, to try and tell YOU what to do with your life and your body. That never made any sense to me. I guess that's why I'm more of a libertarian. If I'm not bothering you, then you don't bother me.

'nuff said.

Cheers.

WHY MEN SHOULD BE NICE TO MISSUS

...Wife to hubby as he gets ready to go to work: "I can't start my car" ...

...Hubby: "So who do I look like, Mr. Goodwrench?" ...

...Wife: "And the washing machine is broken" ...

...Hubby: "So who do I look like, the Maytag repairman?" ...

...Hubby goes to work and when he gets home his wife tells him that the handsome young bachelor next door fixed both her car and the washing machine ...

..."Did you have to give him anything", asked the hubby?

...."Well he said he would take a roll in the hay, or I could bake him a cake", replied the wife ...

..."I hope he liked the cake", said hubby ...

...His wife looks him straight in the eye and says, "So who do I look like, Betty Crocker?"...

.....COLOSSUS

Shoes and Ladykrystyna
Thank you, I know you're right. Goody Mountain certainly has these fears and for some reason, I am the object of her distaste.

I am a conservative, but my mother didn't raise her daughters to be dependent on anyone except ourselves. If we wanted something, we had to work for it, plain and simple.

It's what I admire about conservatives, if there is something in this life that you want, there is absolutely nothing stopping you but you. The road may be more bumpy for some, but anything is possible for everyone. No one is a victim.

But here is the hypocrisy: Some militant conservatives, like Goody Mountain, hate the concept of a woman being able to support herself, buy property, have the freedom to make her own choices in family and career. I mean, am I supposed to go on welfare and not support myself and live my life well? That is not the conservative way.

But she certainly does have internal issues that stem from her own fears of being middle aged and losing what she has.

I have no fear. I love my boyfriend and I will probably marry again, however, if it weren't to happen, I know I would be absolutely fine because I always knew how to take care of myself.

Now if that's not a conservative female, I don't know what is.

baseballdoc
Thanks for the levity! This thread was in desperate need of it!

Great joke - for both men and women!

Really, people. Sometimes we need to be not so serious about ourselves and learn to laugh at the "gender war" a little bit.

Don't we all laugh at comedians - male and female - when they discuss their SOs? Why do we laugh? Because it's true, right?

Right.

Cheers.

Brilliant piece, Mr Prager!
It was truly an eye-opening concept for me that women, like men, have a base nature to overcome. That fact has been so obscured by the feminist myth--the idea that women are full of purity and that men are the source of all evil and negativity in the world. Thanks for bringing this point to light--that women come into the world needing fixing just as much as men.

Shells
You're welcome.

You are right - you are a real conservative woman.

And the problem with the "conservatives" is that they've let themselves be hijacked by such people (let's just be PC here and call them "social conservatives", which to me is an oxymoron if there ever was one).


On the one hand, they extol you being able to get by without government help, on the other, your only choice besides government help, is "man help" - get married, have kids and stay at home to raise them. If you are not married, I guess you are supposed to "pray" everytime the feeling hits you because that's a rational line of thought.

Again, we have to deal with the world that we live in, not the world we wish it was. If we do that, we might actually get closer to a world that we all wish for - one of respect for the individual and individual freedoms regardless of race, age, gender, disability, religion, marital status, parental status, and, yes, maybe even sexual orientation.

Part 2
And I'm certaily not extolling all things "feminism". But the first wave, the wave that brought us the idea of "equality of opportunity" was the best and should have been the last idea and what we strive for because it encompasses everything we women need to be "like men" in the sense of equal before the law. We have to accept the adulations and the pitfalls of it and perhaps that is where woman-kind has failed, or how the feminist movement failed woman-kind. When it became less about equality of opportunity and more about equal results, which is impossible to have without a dictatorship (the Soviet Union and other communist countries being the prime example).

Anyway, for Shells, Shoes and others, it has been a great discussion. For some of you others, you need to welcome yourself to the 21st Century and stop wishing for 1955 or 1855 or 1755. It's not going to happen. We will not go back, we can only move forward.

But we must do that together or not at all.

So what's it going to be?

Cheers.

Liberal Media, "You Are Going To Die"

Look at the lead stories... "Deadly lead in Astro-turf", "Poison Tomatoes", "Most children at risk for Autism", "Killer on the loose", "Mother Earth is melting".

Alarmist-Democrat Media is a Major cause of Anxiety and Depression in America. Oprah alone has caused use of Ritalin and Prozac to sky-rocket. More people have died worrying about tomatoes, than eating them. Children have nightmares, thinking Al Gore will send them to hell for having candles on their Birthday Cake.

Conservatism = Happiness :)

Liberalism = Misery :(

Sorry Charlie, I mean Carlos
Google ads are determined by the keywords the host puts in AdSense, not from personal search habits.

If it did I highly doubt that I would be receiving ads for the Washington post, Gun News and Institute for Free Enterprises.

I have to admit though, the sleep number bed does look pretty cool.

Comb your hair, it would help


If the marriage is good, there is nothing better, If the marriage is bad there is nothing worst, and nothing is so depressing.

That last comment is a rumor I have heard, in 55 years I did not experience it for even a moment.

The Fashion Qu*ers in Numb Jerk City, and the entertainment Qu*ers of Hollysnub started the Salvation Army Reject style of clothes, and the Whore-do hair style. They wanted you ladies to look like you just got out of bed with someone, or were ready to hop in bed with the next one.

When did you last comb your hair? For so many ladies, if they looked in the mirror these days, no wonder they would be depressed - frazzled hair, and sloppy clothes.

I always told my Sweetie that I was sorry for all the tiime she spent looking so beautiful, but wow, was it worth ever second. The “Salvation Army Store Reject” dress style, and the bed-hair of these days did not please my Sweetie at all.

The casual Friday style of office dress has been a failure. Yes I did hate to put on the tie every morning, but there is no doubt that people were more efficient, and more caring in those days.

Why do you think that real customer service we knew 30 to 40 years ago has disappeared? Not only the women are depressed.



Ladykrystyna
Well done.

I hate to agree, but my party certainly does like to feed on their own without thinking what exactly they are ranting against.

I believe as I have said many times, every group be it feminist, or gay, conservative and libertarian--all have radical core groups from within that completely bastardize the entire message to wedge in their own agenda.

As far as feminism goes, I'm sure a lot of ladies here may not realize that everyday, in everything they do, was helped and made easier for them by those feminists they chose to hate.

To make my point: Feminism does not cause depression, as well as bloating, migraine headaches, drought, locusts and swarms of killer bees.

ladykrystyna
Well if your studies are as good as your ability to read my background, they are unreliable.

You seem to think I came from a trouble-free church environment, and am judging everyone who did not. Quite the opposite.

I come from a family that eroded away from the primary extended families for generations, and can tell you FIRST HAND the consequences of throwing tradition out the window.

My paternal grandfather came from a family of pioneers who came out west with the gold rush. Leaving his own family, came to Los Angeles long enough to marry, father two children, and then abandon them to shack up with a woman in Northern California.

My mother left her close knit family in the South to come to California, where she married my father.

Although we had family in the area, we rarely saw them. My father died when I was young, and I have had to take care of myself ever since, because my mother remarried a Leftie who didn't want kids.

By force, I had to live like a feminist, putting myself through college, getting a decent job, and earning six figures.

Although I married, we decided to forego children.

As the major breadwinner in the family, I did not forsee what would happen when I lost everything and had no safety net. Believe me, it is a long way down.

In another age, I would have grown up with my aunts and uncles, cousins and had an extended family.

Naive fools who have such a family, who always have a network to fall back on, can play at being independant without consequences.

But what about 2 or 3 generations down the road, when you have only one child, and they only have one child, when you reject your extended family, and your children and grandchildren have no one to lean on but the state?

Traditions were created for a reason, but when you are taking advantage of their security, you are like a fish in the water, not knowing its value until you are flopping, helpless on the shore.

Shells
Which is exactly why I never gave to any "political groups" whether it be NOW (even though I'm pro-choice [just not militant about it; more like realistic]) or the NRA (even though I'm pro-gun rights).

The radicals in any group speak the loudest and the squeaky wheel gets the oil. That's why we never hear from "moderate" Muslims. Only the radicals because they "speak" louder.

Which is why us "moderates" must stand up and be heard. We keep letting the militants speak for us. We cannot do that anymore, whether we are liberal or conservative - there is a middle ground and I have heard them, seen them and read their posts, so I know they exist. And it is the "moderates" that will get things done.

Cheers.

Sheltered Shells
"As far as feminism goes, I'm sure a lot of ladies here may not realize that everyday, in everything they do, was helped and made easier for them by those feminists they chose to hate."
*************************************************

Your statement is naive.

I remember when my mom dedided her kids were an unfulfilling burden, and started treating us as such.

I remember when my mom went off to work, leaving me as a latchkey kid.

I remember when my parents' Leftie woman friends decided that their families were unfulfilling burdens, and abandoned their kids, ala Kramer vs Kramer, and ran off to "find themselves."

I remember when my mother decided that she had wasted her life raising us, and remarried a man who didn't want kids, and so threw us out while we were still teenagers.

I remember when I started making more money than my husband, and he saw that as a signal that he could take it easy with his friends at the racetrack while I worked 80 hour weeks.

I remember when I got divorced, and had to pay alimony, thanks to Womens Lib.

So far, I can think of NOTHING to thank these obnoxious gals in comfy shoes for.

Honestly....
I think this column is what comes out of the back end of a horse.

Prager laid an egg with this one.

Not quite, lolo

I count about 129 horse droppings, without counting Prager.

Our kids
grown and not-yet-there, tell their Dad and me that we are unusual. Schoolteachers tell us the same thing-they regret that more moms aren't home with the kids to make sure they toe the line. Meantime our kids are grateful because of what they observe in the larger world.

I'm a SAHM who works part time as well as being a p/t student. Not one of the kids' friends gets a hot breakfast daily during the school year, few actually have dinner at the dining room table as we do. This is oppressive, that my DH and I agreed years ago to do this for the family's benefit? Sacrifice? Of what? It's called a "division of labor". DH earns the bucks, I hold the fort. I don't have to worry about the bills, he doesn't have to do the dishes or laundry or the myriad other household tasks-though he's always willing to help. When the kids are gone, I too will earn bucks.

Who says women don't really work at home, or can't possibly be fulfilled doing so? Unless you're a member of the leisure class (which Miss Friedan certainly was) you WORK. Daily. Life is not a thrill a minute, whether at home or the office.

The females who somehow think that browbeating their husbands into cleaning the toilets in order to create a more "equitable" workload are missing something. Sadly too many don't realize it until they find themselves in divorce court.

Mountain Rose . . .
I usually hate making assumptions but your posts are so full of vitriol, you really must re-read them and re-read them again and even read them to someone else before you post. As I am obviously not the only who's noticed it, you may want to think about that.

As for your background - while I sympathize with the rollercoaster ride that was your life, I don't think it means that you can be so judgmental about people you do not know and to try to stereotype them because their life took a different path than yours due to a difference of choices.

You've painted quite the picture of working moms, such as: "NOWDAYS, girls are raised in day care centers, run by Feminazi activists, or by nannies who can't speak English."

My kids were in daycare and I saw no feminazi activists. Have you actually ever been to a daycare? They are young girls or older women making $10.00/hr, changing diapers, cleaning up messes, feeding and trying to give love to other people's children, all so they can make a buck to pay the rent and take care of their own children.

Your 1:29 pm post was probably the worst of it and it was highly judgmental in the most hateful of ways.

Mountain Rose, Part 2
Again, because your life was perhaps more miserable than you wanted it to be, doesn't mean you get to be mean to the rest of us because our path may have been similar in that we've decided to have children AND work.

In fact, I have the utmost sympathy for people who have been handed a bad hand, but yet struggle anyway to endure, as it appears you have (and others, like Shells). Perhaps you have more in common than you think.

So perhaps you need to be less mean and more understanding. Let go of your anger, your jealousy, your hate and learn to love others, even if you don't agree with everything they do and say.

Not to be cheeky, but isn't that what Jesus taught. He yelled once, that I can remember, and that was at the money-changers in the Temple. Otherwise, he was patient, loving, kind and understanding, even with people who he considered to be "sinners". He didn't focus on that, he focused on the fact that everybody can be good if they try.

Why don't we try that instead?

Mountain Rose, Part 3
Again, just because a woman works and has kids doesn't make her automatically evil. The fact is, that many women HAVE to work (like me) and would appreciate it if the rest of our society wouldn't demonize us. You don't think I ached when I left my kids at daycare? I did. But they needed a roof over their head and food in their mouths and that wasn't going to happen on one salary.

My mother, little Miss Susie Homemaker and devout Catholic (and I say all that with much affection), had to work as well. Also because she wanted me to have better than she did as a kid (a product of WWII, malnourished as a child, living as a refugee in England after the War with her parents and brother). We weren't rich just because she worked. She wanted to stay home and couldn't. Is she evil, too?

And why are women who WANT to work evil? As I said in my previous posts, for some women this is healthier than being at home. Some are not zoned for SAHM-hood. So the heck what?

Society has changed, whether we like it or not. Instead of fighting against what cannot be changed back, how about offering our support for all women and all men in their endeavours in trying to make a good life for themselves and their families? Making it work within the confines of a "traditional" attitude instead of trying to impose outdated "traditional" views on everyone.

Pandora's box has been opened. BMW about it won't change that. But making it work for everyone while keeping some traditional values (the ones that really mean something, like family) intact.

Mountain Rose
hope you don't mind my jumping in here but I know just what you're talking about.

I haven't had the experience you speak of in my own adult life but as a teenager I did watch my mother buy into the ever-blaring feminist doctrine that marriage sucked, kids were a burden and sex was simply the means to scratch an itch. Needless to say it wrought nothing but a slow descent into Hell for her. I still remember her Cosmopolitan magazines lying about and upon reading them (when she wasn't around of course), wondering what self-respecting woman would actually believe the BS it still promotes?

I can't begin to tell you how much damage seeing all that drama did to myself and my younger sister. I still struggle with some things that at that time really made a powerful impression but not for the better. Thankfully God must've had a higher calling for me than that of unwed mother (which wouldn't have been difficult to do, given Mother's dereliction); I'm married 29 yrs to a wonderful hard-working guy and none of our kids were born on the wrong side of the blanket.

You do what you have to do in life. Nobody promised it would be all sweetness and light, no matter the path we take.

Mountain Rose, Part 4
Reading your last post - you really don't see how your own personal anguish and pain is injected into your opinion, do you?

And at least, at the very least, at least you had skills to have a job in the first place. That's one thing you should be grateful for. You could be like my 26 year old neighbor with no college education because she got knocked up at 18, was "encouraged" to marry the sod because the families were Mormon. The sod turned out to suffer from mental illnesses he refused to have treated. They had 2 more kids (for a total of 3). He has now decided he doesn't want to be married anymore. And she's left holding the bag. At least she'll get some alimony, but in CA not for long (they were married less than 10 years).

And one thing I forgot to mention: my grandmothers worked, my mother worked. And you know what, there was always a properly cooked dinner on the table, the family helped out with cleaning on the weekends, including outside chores, whether you were boy or girl. Homework was done, discipline maintained.

So the fact is that it can be done. If it's not being done, it's not the fault of going back to work, or feminism, it's the parents' fault (not just the woman) for not carrying on at least that useful tradition of family time and responsibility.

No one forces us to do stupid things, we do that all on our own.

What happened to personal responsibility?

AliveinHim
I say the same thing to you as I did to Mountain Rose:

I sympathize with your lousy childhood, but I hope you understand that not every woman is like that, not even ones that decide to have children AND work or that hope their daughters will get an education and be independent, not because they should be man-haters, but because you don't know what life will deal you (like Mountain Rose and my neighbor) and you should prepare yourself.

What's that saying: Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Cheers.

ladykrystyna
"Reading your last post - you really don't see how your own personal anguish and pain is injected into your opinion, do you?"
**************************************************

Excuse me, but that was my very point, that feminism may sound good to you in theory, but when it is put into practice, it is devistating to the lives of real people.

This is typical of the Left.

They put lots of time and effort into a lot of BS that justifies their deconstruction of traditional society, work real hard to make it sound good, and then unleash it on an unsuspecting culture, the very culture that they intend to destroy.

They release a lot of bogus statistics, which I have found to be frequently made up out of whole cloth, and put on a pompus sounding voice when repeating them, so that useful idiots buy into the drivel without question.

If anyone wants to do a study of matriarchial society, just take a look at the devistation in the inner city, and you will have your fill of the feminist ideal.

That is, if you look at the facts honestly, and not through the filter of a Left-wing radical activist.

ladykrystyna
And who do you suggest is going to raise your children?

If you are building a corporate career, it certainly won't be you.

I worked at a Fortune 500 company for almost 15 years, and believe me, you won't be able to compete with the big boys unless you are putting in 60-80 hours a week.

If you are unwilling to put in the hours, then don't whine that the men are being favored over you: the men put in the hours without complaint.

Yet, who is raising your kids: the live-in illegal alien who doesn't speak English? The daycare center, where your child is but one in a herd of kids, and is being raised by a woman with half your intelligence?

My girlfriends, after neglecting their kids, have found that they have grown into clingy adults who won't leave the nest. These kids are irresponsible and shiftless, and because the parents feel guilty for all the years of neglect, are afraid to ask them to even get a job... even though the kids are over 30!

My friend's middle son was a baby when she started doing overtime at work. He failed to speak at the normal time, and became obese.

There are consequences to lifestyles, in spite of the Lefties' lies.

Obvious
Of course, typically dense Prager misses some of the obvious reasons women are twice as likely to be depressed as men. For one thing, there are a heck of a lot more widows than widowers. Women are much more likely to live for decades, alone, growing less and less able to fully participate in society. Depression has higher rates among the elderly, and women are more likely to be elderly.

Also, the economy has gotten more and more difficult for the shrinking middle class, women who would rather not work are forced into the job market so they can keep a roof over their kid's heads. It's not feminism forcing them into the workplace, it's conservative economic policies.

And also, child-bearing and caring for infants takes a far greater strain on women then on men--a great deal of depression occurs immediately post-partum.

but hey, it's more fun to grandstand and

Why Women are depressed
Because men won't take their proper roll as husbands, fathers and lovers.
More depression has taken place since World War II. The men left for battle, the women went to work and had to leave their children in the care of others and had to shoulder not only their responsibilities but that of the husbands also.
This was not normal and the seeds sown in those days, have come to blossom.

Depression
is directly proportional to happiness. Women are rarely happy. Do I want a bad boy, macho, take-charge man, or do I want a wimpy, easy-to-control, sensitive man? The grass is always greener on the other side. I want to be a career woman, but I also want a family, children to be complete. Oops, there's that damn biological clock to screw up my plans. Women are never happy.

By contrast, men need very little to be happy. All he needs is sex and he is happy. In this age of hooking up, men are getting all the sex they need without any committment. Women's liberation has been good to men's need for sex. We don't have to get married anymore to get sex. Thank you, ladies.

Life span deminishing
"For one thing, there are a heck of a lot more widows than widowers."

That is about to change as more women smoke than men, and more women are in the work force than ever before. Let's not ignore the fact that every woman has a cell phone surgically attached to the ear 24/7. I really believe cell phones will have serious long-term health effects.

Depression is about basic values
I would say that women, being more socially conscious people than men,
would naturally be more susceptible to depression when people within their social circles had poor values. Men, being more socially
independent, would be less susceptible. That's all there is to the problem. And Dennis missed it.

Dennis talks gender roles, and does a cheap talk at that. He says "society continued to teach boys to control themselves..." Really? Men and boys are less reserved today, overall, than they were in the past. And few men, Dennis obviously excepted, would claim they exercise less control over their speech and level of reserve due to feminism.

Generally, depression is all about the people in your life, and whether they are immature me-first people, or not. So if women suffer depression more than men, assigning the blame to something as complex as gender roles unnecessarily obfuscates a fairly simple values problem.


Feminism and coarse speech
"And few men, Dennis obviously excepted, would claim they exercise less control over their speech and level of reserve due to feminism."

I need not look any further than my secretary. She is very unhappy. She is a divorced single mother of two. She is very pretty, but her so-now mannerism drives potential suiters away. She has tatoos all over her body. Every other word is F this, F that. And the one thing she does better than any man in the building is her belch. She burps all day long, and the burps breaks all records in volume and length of time. She burps in front of her colleagues and in front of clients.

gender roles
I'm the most complicated and irritating wife known to my own alpha male. After twenty years I can say this:

**Women want to be women, but they don't want to be told by a man what a woman is.**

It's really that simple; and that complicated.


Women really need Men
Feminism taught women that men were inadequate and therefore unnecessary. It taught them that they could have it all and without men in their lives. Women get depressed when they discover these lies feminism taught them. The truth is that women really need men in their lives and men are necessary to a woman's happiness (and vice-a-versa).

My own observations watching my female friends who cherish their husbands are happy, others who think their husbands are idiots and worthless(which they aren't) are unhappy.

Don't Assume He's Got It Right
Many of the posted comments seem to assume that this article is factual. There are some distortions of fact. Thank you "Lilly" for picking up on some already. First: women's rate of depression exceeded men's prior to the feminist movement. Second: rates of depression are increasing OVERALL, not just in women. (This means men's rates are increasing as well). I'm sure there's sharp soul out there who'd like to attribute that to feminism as well, but it's an unlikely factor. If only such things could be boiled down so simply to someone's political agenda...... I think we're all capable of more sophisticated thought than that.

Let's not forget that men outnumber women in rates of substance abuse and dependence 3:1 - and let's also not forget that substance abuse and dependence is the most common mental disorder. Those rates ALSO predate feminism.

Oh, please
"Yet the prevailing egalitarian doctrines have conspired not only to undermine femininity in women but masculinity in many men."

Oh, so that explains the commonly used "you fight/think/act/play like a girl" argument to cut down women. It's the disparaging of so-called feminine traits that could be argued as causing depression (if you buy that, since from what I have read, depression is a disease that you inherit, just like diabetes or heart disease).

Also, the assumption that all women are ruled by their emotions is such outdated crap. Let's enter the 21st century, please! I don't need to see a rerun of Hillary's crocodile tears.

By the way, "rejection of patriarchy" would benefit women. Really.

I do agree with the following: "The dearth of masculine men has not brought most women happiness, but unhappiness." There is nothing sadder than a wussy man. Straight women want men. If we didn't, we would be gay.

Ladykrystyna, Don't Be Fooled
Don't be fooled by Goody Mountain's history, it's been distorted.

One line in particular that caught my eye that she said: "Although I married, we decided to forego children."

Well, when Goody Mountain blasted me last year for being a shiftless harlot, assuming I troll bars for men, and that I need to go to and find a nice good church going man to save my soul even though I am not worthy, she then interjected how she raises her daughters...

Yes, her daughters...

What I found so memorable is that she is training her young daughters to snag a man in their early 20's to have babies right away and lock them in so that they won't stray.

See, she told me my problem due to my divorce was the fact that I, a heartless harlot who was too selfish to have children, forced my husband to leave me. If I had children with a church going man, I'd be happily married with a beautiful family like her.

Oddly, I had married a church going man, who happened to be a porn addict, which is why I divorced him, LOL.

But yes, she did mention she had a lot of resentment towards her hippy mother, which is why she morphed into the fearful, jealous and crazed pilgrim she is today.


And Ladykrystyna
If she is a working woman who can clear 6 figures with her mentality, then 5'2 and 40 year old me is a runway model for Versace.

Her mode is never to apologize for her rants and poison. Never. She comes up with glorious stories to victimize herself so that we must forgive her for her insanity, rather than she beg for our forgiveness for being cruel.


Demosthenes
I get the feeling that you really do not like women and think that you are "smarter" because you are invested in technology and not the humanities... but that a different argument. At this point I just want to address one point:

When you question, "e.g., education majors (80% women) should be paid the same as engineers (80% men.) Never mind that a post industrial, information technology-driven economy needs engineers more than education majors. Never mind that education majors have the lowest average SAT and GRE test scores of any academic major. Never mind that engineers work more days and longer hours & actually have to produce a “quantifiable” product," I do not want to argue that education majors ARE mostly women and DO have the lowest scores; however, you are comparing, to use the cliche, apples and oranges. I don't know exactly where this argument originated in your thinking process, but I want to address it anyway.

Educators DO provide a "quantifiable" product - they produce EDUCATED individuals - and if the majority of FEMALE educators made the money that they deserve for the amount of actual WORK that they do, then we would see more education majors with higher test scores.

And engineers do not necessarily put in more hours than teachers, and I would never think that an engineer's salary should be the same as a teacher's. The work is just different, and a FEMALE engineer should be treated the same as a MALE engineer. Comparing teacher salaries to engineering salaries is illogical.

Mountain Rose
You have obviously missed the point of my posts to you.

Yes, radical feminism that tries to convince women to leave their families, to hate their children and to hate men is wrong. It seems your mother fell into that trap. Is that the fault of the radical feminists or your mother's.

Again, what happened to the conservative mantra of "personal responsibility"?

Conservatives don't like it when liberals victimize themselves, but you've just done that to your mother and yourself. But you can't see the forest for the trees.

And again, just because radical feminists were louder, doesn't mean that the idea of equal opportunity is a bad thing for women. It requires a balance that has not yet been reached because society and radicals are pushing and pulling us.

The most wonderful and strongest of women I know do THEIR OWN THING. They do not care what others think. That is the real strength that both men and women have to reach. You do what you need to do because it works for you and to heck with anyone's opinion on the subject (as long as you are not harming yourself or your family of course).

Matriarchal and Patriarchal societies don't work if that means less equality under the law for the opposite gender.

I know that most statistics, from anyone, are bogus. I never listen to them. Never.

And I am hardly looking through the filter of a Left-wing radical activist.

Again, you don't read my posts very well, including the ones in response to Re-Con (to which he never responded of course).

Mountain Rose, Part 2
Actually, right now, my mother watches my children, thank you very much (and yes, I consider myself very very lucky that she does). Before that they were in two different daycares of the best quality that I could afford (top notch ones) and my children were not one of a herd of children since there are state regulations about ratios and the daycares I chose adhered to those regulations. There were no live-in illegal aliens.

I didn't like it, but remember what I said - I HAD TO WORK. There was no choice on that one.

I'm sorry your girlfriends have neglected their kids (have you told them that? Probably, in the most self-righteous tone you can muster, I'm sure). But who's fault is that? Theirs, that's right. No one else's. No one puts a gun to their head and makes them neglect their children.

Again, personal responsibility.

As to your friend's middle son - there could be any number of reasons he spoke late. There is no normal time. There are continuums. My older daughter did everything either exactly when the books said, but most of the time, about a month after. My younger daughter did everything early. I was working both times.

Also, he's a boy and my understanding from reading up on early childhood development is that boys can speak later and even have speech problems. Not all, but it does happen.

He became obese? Stop feeding him junk food! DUH! Take him out for exercise! DUH!

What is this, rocket science?


Mountain Rose, Part 3
You talk about statistics from the Left that are bogus.

Well, I find that statistics from the Right (like the ones you are trying to peddle with real world examples about how working moms' kids are some how at a disadvantage in development) are just as bogus.

Kids not moving out, parents not demanding they get jobs - that's the PARENTS' FAULT. It may be a Lefty ideal or not, but many parents nowadays are too clingy with their kids and up their butts and pressuring them to do what they could not do in their youth.

My parents both worked. I was either being watched by my grandmother or a babysitter until I became a "latchkey" kid at around 13 or 14.

I had a job in high school (per my parents' directive and my desire to gain experience and make some money), I went away to college (Boston first, then back to NJ), I stayed home for year to save money, but I worked and prepared to go to Law School. I went to Law School in California, where I still live.

My husband's life story is pretty similar - both parents worked, he had after school care or was a latchkey kid. He went away to the military at 17, went to college, moved out of the house and got married (big mistake), divorced, married me and we have 2 beautiful children and a wonderful life. My mom now watches my kids and they are otherwise healthy, growing children.

For every "real world" story you can give me, I can give you one to counter it, meaning that all statistics whether from the Left or the Right or neutral mean absolutely nothing. Everything has to be evaluated on an individual basis.

And people need to do what is best for them and their families. That's what makes it healthy and makes it work.

Shells
Thanks for the info.

See I usually don't argue about whether someone's "lifestory" is true or not because it's not my place. I appreciate if someone gives me some background, though, because I can then see where they are coming from. Everyone's opinions are based on personal experience and prejudices as well. You know, I wanted my mom to stay home with me, so I'm going to stay home with my children.

I mean, my mother asked me if I was ever upset that she didn't stay home. Honestly, I love my mother (and my father - I was totally a daddy's girl!), but I was not that kind of a clingy kid. My parents spent tons of time with me that was quality and I had a wonderful, healthy childhood. Not that my mom and I never bumped heads, but her staying home or not staying home had nothing to do with that.

Anyway, since I'm a little more aware of her "personality", I'll probably make those posts above my last to her. I'm not going to be tilting at windmills or trying to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person or reason with a twit.

And I certainly don't need HER approval for my lifestyle and neither do you (which I'm sure you know).

Again, the strongest women I've known are ones that don't give a rat's carcass what other's think and they do their thing because it's the best thing for them and their families. My grandmothers were like that, my mom is like that, and I know tons of others (friends and family).

That's the real strength - not to give in to the rantings of either the Left or the Right and do what's best for you.

Cheers, Shells. All the best.

can't we just get along?
Seems like we heard that before?!
elvis

Women's depression
One aspect that is a link to modern feminism is abortion. Abortion is the antithesis of femininity since only a woman can bear a child. Radical feminism has stripped motherhood from the culture and marginalized men. Since 1973 we're nearing 50 million abortions. Are women more happy, or less depressed?

It's a mystery
I am a very happily married woman with 2 young boys. I am able to work (self-employed) from home so I can be with my boys. I am financially secure, in fact, don't ever have to work again. Yet sometimes I find myself a bit melancholy. I wouldn't say "depressed" but at times I feel a bit dissatisfied. If I had to put my finger on it I'd say it's the pressure I put on myself to be the perfect mom, wife and career woman. I always feel I should be doing more or be better at what I do. I suppose I should just be happy with my life and realize how fortunate I am. I guess there's a little part of me that's not satisfied. Go figure!

But no one's perfect. Life is a journey and there will always be ups and downs.

As the daughter of a staunch feminist
my mom lectured me constantly that abortion was a totally political issue. That it was all about keeping women down (barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen rhetoric). Never ONCE did I hear the hideous truth about abortion.

She strongly opposed any feminine traits, such as dressing in a feminine fashion, wearing make-up, jewelry, looking ... well, feminine! She thought it was shallow and for YEARS I fully adopted that same attitude.

My husband of ten years has been helping me get in touch with my femininity (something I lost during my informative years). He loves it when I dress in a womanly manner. He says it really turns him on! It's been a struggle but I'm starting to really appreciate being a woman.

I have several girlfriends who are divorced, never married and VERY unhappy. They cry "Where are the men!?" but don't realize that the myth of feminism has hurt them (and men) deeply.

It's long past time we celebrate men being men and women being women.

Missing the point-Give me a break
Too many people discuss at home motherhood in terms of domestic chores. Taking that angle is a clear indication of someone who has no idea what they're talking about. The point of at home motherhood is the thousands of small consistent interactions (relationships 24/7)on a daily basis with children in their formative years.

The "I've been working all day don't expect a sex kitten attitude" isn't unique to career women OR at home mothers. It's something we all deal with and some make time and effort and others don't. For every career woman who complains about a husband that doesn't help around the house there is an at home mother complaining about the same thing.

For every woman claiming she cannot live with the number of children she has on her husband's income there is an at home mother at the same or lower income level with as many or more children in an area with comparable cost of living. That's what really irritates at home mothers. Everyday they DO survive on one income to hear career women saying it can't be done.

I think many career women really DON'T want to be at home, so instead of just saying so and letting some people disapprove of their choice, many convince themselves it can't be done and get sympathy by playing the "Oh, how I wish I could be home! Too bad I can't." card for sympathy. If you don't want to be at home just say so.

And don't give me the "All women need to get together and support each others decisions" line. Let Homeschool Mom give you the same advice she gives the newbie homeschool moms who complain someone doesn't approve of their decision to homeschool: Get over it. You are not entitled to anyone's approval.

Gambler5112
I said few men, not no man. You must be one of the few.

Your secretary's traits are very rare for a woman, more so for an attractive secretary. I've never even seen one like that.

Dennis's similar problem with more women than men giving him obscene gestures when driving is also very rare. So rare, I doubt it even exists. I know because I drive a lot and don't recall ever seeing an obscene gesture from a woman driver. It is true that when a driver is about to plow into me on the road, it is slightly more often a woman than a man, and when that happens I usually see an embarrassed waive from the other driver to acknowledge their carelessness, but that's appropriate, and not obscene at all.

Dennis, despite his many positive
points, just is not seeing things for what they are again, as is common with him.

My point is sustained. If men who lack traditional reserve and have
coarse speech were to explain themselves, few would claim they are this way because of feminism.


Yes
I love this article. I couldn't agree more.

ArmyAggieWife88
Re yours from 25 June: exceptional insight. Yes. Exactly.

Prager has some good points here, but I think a lot of women are just depressed because their backs hurt.

Depression
You might want to read one of David Healy's books on the marketing of anti-depressants. He has an interesting series of slides he shows at lectures on the subject which reproduce the ads from both medical journals and, after it became legal, women's magazines. In the 1950s, these ads showed older women with furrowed brows. By the 90s, the ads showed young women with happy faces and signs of active lives. The implication was that anti-depressants are necessary for a normal life. Don't take my word for it; look at the ads. Here is one of his books on Amazon:

"Let Them Eat Prozac: The Unhealthy Relationship Between the Pharmaceutical Industry and Depression"

He is a research psychologist who returned to England after he lost his position in Canada because he refused to alter a paper on suicides and anti-depressants.

Depression is real but it has also been heavily sold.

The Demise Of America's Women ...
The Death Of The Black Woman ...
America doesn't become a great nation and world leader again, without developing a culture that supports, encourages, and honors women. For now, the demise of America's women and the imminent death of the Black woman continue its path.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=235ZkzIShIA

- Keith G. Wright

Prager contradicts himself
Hasn't anyone else noticed that Prager is simultaneously saying that women are depressed because they aren't controlling their feminine natures and because they aren't feminine anymore?

Works for me
Fashizum: "Go for already happy foreign women
No need to wonder why men are running for the borders and dating foreign women and eventually moving to paradise to raise *happy* families with happy women."

I only date European men (DC is very international so it's a great town for meeting them). They are romantic and very masculine. Unfortunately, American men, at least of my age, are lacking in that today.

My Alexander (Russian) is the most fantastic man I have ever met. No more blues (or American metrosexuals) for this girl!

Sad Sack Single Women
The saddest women I know are single. Their emotions get them into really bad situations because they don't have a man to reason with them when they are acting irrationally due to their runaway emotions!!
Of course, they are single because they haven't learned to keep their emotions under control as it takes a lot of smarts and emotional control to get a good husband!!

Chemical imbalances
Sorry I'm posting late on this column. I just noticed the topic in Prager's list of recent columns.

Prager didn't bother to address the possibility of sex differences in the number of men and women suffering from chemical imbalances in the brain in his column. That's a serious oversight. This is the most likely factor for the long-noted difference in rates of depression between men and women.

Victorian literature is loaded with hair-raising stories of very traditional-minded women slowly going insane for no discernible reason. Suffragettes were not noted for suffering from depression. Would most of these cases now be diagnosed and treated as clinical depression? I'd say likely. Was the Victorian Age a noteworthy feminist era? I'd say not likely.

Historical diagnoses are tricky, but studying past trends is the only way I know to weed out the possibility of long-term historical sex differences in numbers of cases of depression.

A bit off the subject, but, IMHO feminism causes the opposite problem that Prager deplores. Instead of declaring all human beings equal, modern feminists declare women to be naturally superior.

I'll let the feminists and the male chauvinists slug out the question of which sex is better. I say we humans are all INDIVIDUALLY UNEQUAL.

Men Have No Clue
Female depression may have been brought about by feminism, for sure, but not for the reasons you state. We women have fabulous insights into human behaviors, we have multi faceted talents, we have high intelligence and we have the ability to stand up for ourselves without the art of violence. Hence, the very fact that we desire family, income, sex, love and popularity holds us back from self recognition and self love. Being the nucleus of life itself is a huge burden that takes away from all the other aspects of life that we seek. We are constantly being held back by trying to have it all. Abortion laws were the best legislation to happen for us, yet we are always in fear that the brute force of the male nature is always knocking at our doors. Many of don't want a "man" because of the constant effort it takes to keep the peace. Rather than accuse of being empty without a man, how about liking us for our sense of independence, our ability to have sex without love and for our soft nature. Men just don't understand that we women don't want or need their threats, verbal accusations and abuse and the hardships they have created for us throughout history. When men see us a people first, then maybe men will have an opportunity to actually have a relationship with us that doesn't end up in a court of law. Too many women have instigated divorce because of the marital crimes that men committed. A message for all men who want a woman,,,,we don't need you to open the pickle jar,,,,,rather we need you to share in the deliciousness of the pickle.

feminism
This article is a crock.It makes many assumptions without support and uses feminism as a straw (wo)man to throw darts at. Women in the 50's were depressed in huge numbers - largely undiagnosed because they were unable to express their thoughts or opinions let alone achieve professional success. Feminism in a real sense allowed women to choose a destiny which can be depressing. Some of the early symbols of feminism were for publicity and education. If it were not for this my daughters would not be able to be prime participants in their school mock trial program being supported by boys and girls instead of only supporting. My daughters know now that there are no barriers to them achieving their dreams. That can be depressing because choices other than an mrs degree must be made. There is no loss of femininity. You need only to see these girls