Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Tuesday, June 30, 2009
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Alice in Medical Care
by Thomas Sowell
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Most political and media discussions of medical care have an air of unreality reminiscent of Alice in Wonderland. There is an abundance of catch-phrases but remarkably few coherent arguments.

Let's start at square one. Why is there alarm about American medical care? The most usual reason given is because its cost is high and rising.

That is certainly true. We were not spending nearly as much on high-tech medical procedures in the past because there were not nearly as many of them, and we were not spending anything at all on some of the new pharmaceutical drugs because they didn't exist.

This general pattern is not peculiar to medical care. Cars didn't cost nearly as much in the past, when they didn't have air-conditioning, power steering and high-tech safety features. Homes were cheaper when they were smaller, had fewer bathrooms and lacked such conveniences as built-in microwave ovens.

We would like to have all these things without the rising costs that come with them. But only with medical care is such wishful thinking taken seriously, with government regarded as a sort of fairy godmother who will give us the benefits without the costs.

A cynic is said to be someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. If so, then it is political cynicism to point to other countries that spend less on medical care, including some countries where there is "universal health care" provided "free" by their governments.

Just as medical care, houses and cars were all cheaper when they lacked things that they have today, so medical care in other countries is cheaper when they lack many things that are more readily available in the United States.

There are more than four times as many Magnetic Resonance Imaging units (MRIs) per capita in the United States as in Britain or Canada, where there are government-run medical systems. There are more than twice as many CT scanners per capita in the United States as in Canada and more than four times as many per capita as in Britain.

Is it surprising that such things cost money?

The cost of developing a new pharmaceutical drug is now about a billion dollars. Neither political rhetoric nor government bureaucracies will make those costs go away.

We can, of course, refuse to pay these and other medical costs, just as we can refuse to buy air-conditioned homes with built-in microwave ovens. But that just means we pay attention only to prices and not to the value of what we get for those prices.

We can even refuse to pay for so many doctors. But that just means that we will have to wait longer to see a doctor-- as people do in countries with government-run medical systems.

In Canada, 27 percent of the people who have surgery wait four months or more. In Britain, 38 percent wait that long. But only 5 percent of Americans wait that long for surgery.

Surgery may well cost less in countries with government-run medical systems-- if you count only the money cost, and not the time the patients have to endure the ailments that require surgery, or the fact that some conditions become worse, or even fatal, while waiting.

A recent report from the Fraser Institute in Canada shows that patients there wait an average of ten weeks to get an MRI, just to find out what is wrong with them. A lot of bad things can happen in 10 weeks, ranging from suffering to death.

Politicians may talk about "bringing down the cost of medical care," but they seldom even attempt to bring down the costs. What they bring down is the price-- which is to say, they refuse to pay the costs.

Anybody can refuse to pay any cost. But don't be surprised if you get less when you pay less. None of this is rocket science. But it does require us to stop and think before jumping on a bandwagon.

The great haste with which the latest government expansion into medical care is being rushed through Congress suggests that the politicians don't want us to stop and think. That makes sense, from their point of view, but not from ours.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Thomas Sowell and Townhall.com's daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
Medical health insurance
When my mom had my younger brother in the sixties, she stayed in the hospital for 5 days. They paid cash. When I had my first child, in the early 80's I stayed in 3 days, the next child 5 years later, I stayed in the hospital for 2 1/2 days. My last child in 1995, when we had the best insurance, which paid 80%, I was allowed to stay in 24 hrs. Go figure!

The Hospital Room
Think of the hospital rooms of the 1960’s. There was the hospital bed, but not automated to raise the person up. If the person wanted to be raised up, there was a hand crank at the foot of the bed and someone had to crank it. One or two chairs for people to sit on and a small table to put things on and a table that could be moved over the bed, so the patient could eat too. That was it.

Now the bed is automated and not only the head rises up, but the foot too, no crank needed, just push a button. And attached to the patient all the time is a machine that monitors blood pressure, pulse, temp and oxygen saturation in the blood stream. And if the patient needs Oxygen, there is no need to move an oxygen bottle into the room, now just connect up to a line in the wall. Every person in the hospital could be on Oxygen.

So if we want to cut back on costs, just get rid of everything that was made after 1970! A simple hospital room would be a lot cheaper. We would have more deaths, but even those deaths would be cheaper!


You Get What You Pay For
Why is paying for medical care any different than buying a car? There are numerous options when considering the purchase of a car. New, old, older, bells & whistles, fewer bells & whistles, large, small and the list goes on and on.

If the goal is top flight medical care, then it is going to be costly. Just as if you prefer a Cadillac over a Hyundai.

Medical Costs
What many people my not realize about those new drugs and technologies is that a part of the cost is a direct result of out of control lawsuits. The doctors, drug companies, and medical device companies must cover the cost of any lawsuits they incur. Win or lose, they must pay lawyers and court fees. These cost are passed on to the consumer.

Pre-existing medical Conditions
The problem today is that private health insurance companies do everything in their power to exclude people with pre-existing medical conditions from their coverage; additionally, private health insurance companies seek every means possible to bounce people from their plans once a medical condition (such as diabetes or epilepsy) is diagnosed. That is why 62% of all bankruptcies involve medical bills .... even though 80% of individuals declaring bankruptcy had health insurance the day the medical condition was diagnosed. Government regulation today exists to force health insurance companies to cover the sick, and to cover the treatments that the sick requires.

Think about it: health insurance is the one industry that makes money by denying service and discouraging customers. The Republican idea of removing existing regulations on health insurance companies would result in more bankruptcies and more deaths.

Underfunding
Is there a government department that is not "underfunded"? Schools, roads, the military, police, fire, you name it, they are always crying that they do not get enough money to meet the demands placed upon them.

This does not happen in the private sector. The more in demand something is, the better it is funded. Even the protective role of police is buttressed by private security firms, which I have never heard complain of underfunding. Should banks or celebrities be told that they cannot hire guards because a single-payer security system is more "fair?"

So when your life depends on it, do you want to turn to an underfunded system where you are yet another burden, or a profitable one where you are a valued customer?

medical costs
Good article Mr. Sowell. As someone who worked as a Registered Nurse in hospitals, I know that everything you said was true.

What has happened is that medical technology has increased to the point where we can no longer afford all of it.

Right now, we have the best medical system in the world because it is a private system. In general, the government has a history of screwing up everything it touches. Why would we want the government to run healthcare?

No matter what happens, the only way to reduce the cost of healthcare is to ration the care. That is already being done. If Obama is successful at turning our healthcare system into a government run system we will have so much health care rationing that people will be shocked, but by then it will be too late.

lawsuits
What Kristen said about lawsuits is true but after working as a Registered Nurse in hospitals for 25 years, what I have seen is that only the threat of huge lawsuits is effective at keeping doctors, hospitals, and drug companies on the up and up.

Hospitals may be the worst of the bunch.

Reply
"So when your life depends on it, do you want to turn to an underfunded system where you are yet another burden, or a profitable one where you are a valued customer? "
The problem is that medical treatment for serious ailments regularly exceed the average individual's pre-tax income. That means that some entity other than the individual pays the bills. In America, that is usually the health insurance company. The health insurance company would rather drop sick individuals than pay their bills. Regulations today exist to force the health insurance companies to pay the bills; however, the regulations are weak and are weakly enforced.
Without insurance, a sick individual becomes a burden not a "valued customer".

Checks and Balances
Human systems, because of our nature, require checks and balance. Now, where is the proposed system that will balance the medical practitioner, insurance carrier, lawyer, patient, taxpayer, insurance premium payer, and bureaucracy interests; and check their abuses? And, did I leave any interests out?

Now, can we just solve this in a few months by the same Congressional jokers that pass legislation before it is read - or even written?

Can't wait for the July 4th Tea Parties! Uhrah!

Read the stories
http://stories.barackobama.com/healthcare

kristen
Good point,it is sad that lawsuits have become an industry unto themselves in this country.They`ve managed to convince everyone that it is always the other guy that pays,like government everyone has to pay for it.

Gov't also determines diagnosis
This is another ghastly aspect of national health care not often discussed.

I have chronic Lyme disease and have received successful treatment from a doctor who understands the disease and diagnoses and treats it outside the Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) and CDC diagnostic and treatment guidelines. Without this wonderful doctor, I would have been diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease (those were my clinical symptoms) and likely disabled for the rest of what would have been a miserable life.

Because of this I have become active in Lyme education and activism; and have met hundreds of people from all over the world who have been misdiagnosed, undiagnosed, untreated, mistreated, and are desperately ill. Those with resources to get away from national health care systems come here for treatment, and those here must pay out of pocket for proper treatment. Should national health care come to pass here, the doctors that treat Lyme correctly will become illegal and have to stop or go underground with their efforts. Not good.

Those disabled byLyme will increase exponentially, but will have dianosis such as fibromyalgia, MS, Bipolar, Parkinson's, ALS, OCD, restless leg symdrom, Chrone's Disease, Irritable Bowel, Clinical depression, various learning disabilities, JRA, Rhumatoid arthritis, cardiovascular issues, etc... Of course, health deteriorates as symptoms are treated but the cause is not. It is this bad.

And our current gov't says chronic Lyme neuroborreliosis doesn't exist.

Through

Tyler
"Reading the stories" does not mean increasing the largess of gov't is viable solution. Look at the utter disaster national health care is everywhere it is implemented, that is a better point of reference.

Furthermore, in 26 years of social work practice, I have never- NOT ONCE- seen anyone denied healthcare. This included fertility treatment for the poor and breast argumentations for inmates (an 80's thing).

Government has no money
Only what it takes away from it's citizen's via taxes. Until people get beyond thinking we are getting something for nothing, I don't see much hope.
Interesting one of the cases I have seen used to argue the case for universal health insurance is a child that died while waiting for the insurance company to approve a liver transplant after the first failed. I tried to point out that neither would have been approved under a government funded program.
I worked for IHS for many years and it was necessary to restrict the use of newer, more expensive drugs due to cost. That restriction on a wide scale will not only be a restriction on the use, but on the development of new drugs if they cannot be used.

GeorgiaGal
You are correct that insurance companies are awful. I don't think anyone on this website would disagree. But they became powerful and received the ability to deny coverage because of government and the symbotic relationship between insurance lobbyists and government. The relationship has made an uncapitalistic industry even more uncapitalistic (even the most liberal person must say government is partly or fully responsible for this).

Every time you give a dollar to big insurance is 20 cents is being spent on a lobbyist to help them deny you coverage (but government is somehow going to become moral once it controls the whole industry even though they accept the payoffs).

The liberal solution denies reality: National Healthcare has been tried in other areas and has been successful and big government is more moral and efficient than big business.

Truth: National Healthcare has never worked anywhere. Big government is just as corrupt and awful and big business. Except in a real capitalist system big business fails. Government never fails. It just becomes more parasitic.

But liberals (and some conservativies) see the option between two awfuls. Big Government or Big Business when there is an obvious solution.

The solution is simple. Decrease the barriers of entry to the insurance industry. Don't let the big guys negotiate insurance rates. Put the smaller guys on the same playing field. Then deny or cap anything that makes barriers of entry more difficult: lawsuits, negotiated rates, payoffs, etc.

allopathic care?
Allopathic Only Care are is the problem. We have lost the knowledge of the past generations on curing simple (what MDs now consider difficult) problems that we now rely on expensive drugs that cause additional symptoms. A combination of allopathic and homeopathic treatments are the obvious solution to anyone who has studied true homeopathy and is educated on both pathologies.

Fallacies I
Once again, there are so many fallacies in this article it is hard to know where to start. So I will start at the beginning.

"Why is there alarm about health care?" The very fact that millions are driven into financial ruin for an illness they could not have anticipated or avoided only happens here and in NO other developed country is not reason enough for alarm???

Other countries do not provide health care for "free." Taxes pay for it. Other countries have chosen to eliminate the middleman, the insurance companies, or at the very least severely limit their scope.

Drug R+D goes on in other countries, many of our big pharma companies are foreign, and the gov't pays for the majority of drug research here in the US.

We also have waits for doctors. You can wait months in the US to see many doctors. And the waiting lines HERE would be much longer if all the people needing health care were actually IN the lines, instead of being excluded altogether from even receiving health care. Mr. Sowell, try looking into the many, many examples of people HERE who NEVER get the medical care they need and die or suffer needlessly. If you are going to tell a story, be honest and tell THE REST OF THE STORY. We should be hearing from people like you who claim to be responsible journalists that many more people in this country have to "endure ailments", far too many with no hope of having them treated.


Fallacies II
Also, there is not necessarily a cause-effect relationship between the fact that other systems are nationalized and the fact that people have to wait for certain things. It is the lack of money in other systems.

We have more MRIs etc. etc. because we have TOO MANY. And in some cases they are being used inappropriately because someone invested in them and wants to recoup their investment.

Any technology is only as good as the practitioner using it. Nothing will ever replace the basic skills of carefully listening to, examining, and taking a complete history from a patient. Technology is only a means to an end. We are not getting better outcomes no matter how advanced our technology is.

Next time, tell the truth about our state of health care instead of your slanted ideologist opinions.

No good crisis should go to waste!
Sound familiar? This administration is trying to pass legislation that will alter America forever. And they tell us we have not a minute to waste. In fact congress does not even have the time to read the bill that they are asked to vote on and pass.

Common sense should tell us that something stinks in Denmark or America. We need to slow down and have a public debate over these important issues. Not jump because this community organizer that is our president says so.

What America Gets for the Money
Here is what American gets for our money, when it comes to medical care under Obama http://theblacksphere.net/site/obamacare-america-gets-new- proctologist/

You will be HOOKED!

One point of contention
I have to respectfully disagree with Dr. Sowell on one point he makes in this column. Dr. Sowell writes:

“The cost of developing a new pharmaceutical drug is now about a billion dollars. Neither political rhetoric nor government bureaucracies will make those costs go away.”

I believe that the government bureaucracy will indeed make those costs go away. This will be accomplished by eliminating the pharmaceutical company’s incentive to develop and market the new drugs. No new drugs, no billion dollar expenditure to recoup. The pharmaceutical companies will simply cease to research and develop life saving drugs. Problem solved.

Marion -
Did you point out also that it was lack of medical CARE - or quality of medical CARE - that was involved in the decision?

And - OH, YES - it was a DECISION: the CHOICE was made to wait for the insurance company. That CHOICE is the parent's perogative - unless they signed over all such rights to someone else.

Where does this qualify as the poster child for improved health care? It doesn't.

In Reply #26 -
I left out the word "NOT".
It should read:
"Did you point out also that it was NOT lack of medical CARE - or quality of medical CARE - that was involved in the decision?"

RE: Reply #25
13-Bravo; I also disagree - but for a different reason.

Quite a large chunk of the cost of developing a new drug IS the government. Regulations, Approvals, Lobbying for and against both, and the repetition of same is costly. I cannot understand any longer why the government is involved, as so many of the new and approved drugs are as dangerous (or more so) as the illness they are supposed to "correct".

With the government "in charge" more thoroughly, they may decide to streamline their processes and requirements.
But understanding the nature of government and bureacracy; I sincerely doubt it will take that direction - they will take over the Pharmaceuticals first and run them itself.

Now THERE's a comforting thought.

A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE
As consumers we are told never to sign anything without reading it first to save ourselves from future woes. Then members of our government cannot take the time to read proposed legislation and say that speed is of the essence or else we are all doomed. A mind indeed is a terrible thing to waste and so is the fact that our representatives think that we do not have our wits about us. We voted them in and we can vote them out just as well. The minds of our representatives have been wasting away for a very long time now and our lot is in a sorry state unless we take these mindless fools out.

Wanna see...
...what government health care looks like? Easy - Your local city / county / state runs "free" Public Health clinics. Just go to one of those and look around. Like what you see?

Or go to a VA hospital. And NOT the flagship one at Bethesda that the Washington muckety-mucks use, but one out in the hinterlands. There are actually many dedicated employees there, but it's the system that fails.

For that matter, go to an emergency room. Now THERE's the future of "universal" health care.

So many people think that the health care system will be exactly the same except that they will just walk out of the doctor's office without having to stop at the payment window. Talk about naive...

Alice In Medical Care Land.
What is really driving the Government as fairy godmother in medical care land is what you heard Hillary Clinton said, when she first introduced Universal Healthcare to the masses when her husband was running things.
"We live in the richest country in the world and some 50 million Americans don't have Health Insurance".
As far as I understand it all Americans have access to health care, Insurance or no, you will not be turned away from ER's if you show up with ailments. Basic treatment is available to all.
Now that the Democrats are in power again a new Healthcare offensive is in the works led by President Barry and his basketball administration, the Democrats running Healthcare woe unto us.
Picture if you will a man, he took two cialis a month ago, he's been waiting for treatment because he's had an errection lasting more than 5 days, all the blood has drained from his body into this one appendage just sitting waiting for treatment, now fast forward next year around the same time and you've entered the afterlife thru the Obama Healtcare Zone.
Can't you hear the music playing-dodedodo, dodedodo, dodedodo.

? No Article
Where's Alice in Medical Care? No article.

Missed one point
Dr Sowell --- another excellent argument...but I wish you had included the issue of medical malpractice. There are certainly more than a few marginal doctors in practice, but 100% of doctors have to practice defensive medicine because they are afraid of being sued. Take away that knife from their throats and we might see a reduction in medical costs as well.

Dr. Sowell
Scanners are available in England through a region process. If certain test are needed, you are advised as to where to go to receive said testing. Having so many machines, many under utilized, shows the level of waste in American health care. Also, once the focus is taken off the "Old and Sick", cost will be adjusted downwardly. In a prevention system,treatment is minimized by a series of exams. Young people should not have serious health issues. If they do,we should have a system in place,which monitors them for reasons. America can no longer focus on the unhealthy. At first this approach will produce casualties. But eventually benefits will accrue. At that point, you will have a Preventive care system, not a Treatment care system! This is Capitalism.

foxyloxy
Fallacies I & II omit the leading cause of lack of medical care in this country: choice.

Choose not to have insurance
Choose not to have care
Choose not to suffer the tests
Choose not to take the drug

All are valid choices - all are actual choices measured as failures of health care.

If you do not have insurance (or adequate insurance), you choose. Just because you don't care for the choices isn't a failure of health care. Twenty years ago, the choice would not even exist - insurance, or no - because the knowledge (technical, or otherwise) didn't exist yet.
Sometimes, you choose even when you DO have insurance. Our health care is good enough to prolong nearly any suffering - and insurance is quite often willing to pay.

No - what so many (and not People, they're about 90% satisfied with CARE: but activists and politicians)want isn't better CARE: it's "FREE" care. This is not a healthcare issue: it's a money/welfare issue.
Why is it that so many people think "spreading the cost over 300 million people" - especially without much consent - is a valuable and viable course?
If the cost were ACTUALLY spread over the entire population, each would theoretically be paying their own share - and the spreading of the cost wouldn't even be necessary.
But it is NEVER spread over such a large portion as 100% of a population - if even a majority.

We should leave this alone.

killer
A certain former Austrian corporal who served in the List Regiment of the Bavarian Army in World War felt the same way you do. Must make you feel good to be in his corner.

BTW, when you get "Old and Sick", I suspect your attitude about about health care will change markedly.

Karen and Mobius
Karen...the best place to pick up an infecdtion is ina hospital. They want healthy moms and babes out for that reason.

Mobius...The hospital bed does those wonderful things so that someone with difficulty breathing or sitting up for long periods of time will have critical needs met. Changing positions aids with lung problems and also decreases the chance of bed sores.

Out of money, faith & credit
Marion your concern is crucial, government has no money except what it takes from citizen's via taxes. However, that isn't entirely correct although it should be. Government creates money out of thin air simply by printing it.

If done by individuals it's called counterfeiting and it is illegal. Counterfeiting by government isn't called counterfeiting but it has the same results. It devalues the already existing dollars that were produced by actual labor.

Our currency is under attack by the thieves in Washington. They willingly spend those counterfeit dollars on items we can't afford. If anyone actually believes Obama's pay as you go rhetoric I have a used car I'd like to sell them. Our currency which was once backed by gold is now backed by nothing other than the "full faith and credit of the U.S. Government". Today's politicians have eroded faith and credit of the U.S. government to the point where even China wants out of the dollar. Faith and credit are nearly gone leaving only debt in their wake.

We can't afford half the things we have now, let alone a National Health Care Plan. But the "I want something for nothing crowd" thinks government can provide that which nobody worked for. This giant lie of a government is about to skipper this country into insolvency.

GeorgiaGal
You hit the nail on th4e head. In order to get any coverage for my daughter who has epilepsy, we finally had to get her into the4 medicare/medicaid system.

Albert
"No matter what happens, the only way to reduce the cost of healthcare is to ration the care. That is already being done. If Obama is successful at turning our healthcare system into a government run system we will have so much health care rationing that people will be shocked, but by then it will be too late."

And the first people that they will ration out will be the elderly.

A choice
I understand that approximately half to two-thirds of the amount of money that an individual spends on medical care is done in the remaining few months of their life.

When I read comments from some such as Will who indicates that once the focus is taken off the "Old and Sick" costs will be "adjusted downwardly".

Will is absolutely correct. What he does not specifically state is that the "Old and Sick" will die, thus relieving the economic burden. Some are in favor of this approach...until you are the one who is old and sick or it is your parents/children/spouse.

We just have to decide what sort of society we wish to live in, one that values life or one that does not. The real question is more philosophical than that of economics.

killer-
Today, in this country, we have BOTH preventive and "treatment" care. Each focuses according to need.

Are you suggesting we reduce to just one?

I beg to differ
Enough beurocracy CAN and WILL reduce the costs (not the "Price" but the "Cost") of high-tech medical gadgets and new drugs. You don't have to pay as much for new drugs when you stop researching them. And high-tech gadgets don't cost nearly as much when you decide to scrap the ones you have and stop buying and producing new ones. The worst part of this whole idiotic government health-care scheme is that innovation will disappear. It won't be maintainable under government price restrictions. If we get stuck with Obamacare, medical science will be in the same place in 2357 as it is now. Imagine where we would be if there had been no medical science and technology advancements since 1900. That's precisely what would have happened if McKinley had gotten this idea. So are we supposed to condemn people in 2109 to precisely the same medical care we have now? Without the benefit of any advances?

This article
I have a lot of questions. First I have to say that I think that more gov't in the system is a mistake. Think about it, anytime you touch the gov't it is a disaster. In the last three years I have had to deal with the IRS, Social Security Administration, and Passport office. I can tell you a horror story about each one.

There are however, problems in our current health care system and I really do think costs are out of control. I was talking to my Father-in-Law on Fathers Day. He had a cardiac stint put in back in Feb. His hospital bill (not including any doctors) for one day in the hospital was $98,000. I understand the argument of value vs cost, but to me this seems extreme, and no system can function for long paying these kinds of costs. The cost of the high tech equipment is part of the cost, so is the cost of potential liablity, and the cost of the "no-pays". But a 100 grand for one day in the hospital regardless of the procedure is crazy.

Walter
"...The great haste with which the latest government expansion into medical care is being rushed through Congress suggests that the politicians don't want us to stop and think. That makes sense, from their point of view, but not from ours."

Congrats I didn't notice the emotional "socialist" or "rationing" words tossed about. You bring up a great point. But you use arguably the worst examples of government healthcare but even that aside you make some points that should be addressed. The outcomes are noticeably better in other industrialized countries than in the US. Indeed, needless use of MRI's and CAT's is considered one of the major wastes of US medicine so I am surprised that you chose these examples. By nearly any measure of general healthcare from infant mortality to longevity other nations come in as better systems. The vast majority of citizens would never trade their current system for the US system and a similar majority of US citizens on social security would not voluntarily give up Medicare. The VA for all its faults has higher customer satisfaction than most any other US healthcare providers. Walter, we pay far too much for far too little. While you are comparing medical costs through years how about considering the savings of much shorter hospital stays? Constant dollars? I think you will find that the big jump in healthcare costs only came with Reaganism. Why is that? It seems US healthcare is not as good as that abroad overall but it is definitely far more expensive. The US had the best healthcare in the world when Reagan became president now it is far from the best.

Cost of Medical Care
Another cost that has risen exponentially is the cost of caring for our aged population. Something like 30-40% of Medicaid/Medicare expenses are spent during the last year of life. Having recently visited several nursing homes, I cannot imagine why most of the occupants would want to prolong their life. Obama was told by someone at his ABC informercial on health care that her 105 year old mother received a pacemaker (or some other high cost item). Why do we pay for such care at such an advanced age? If the patient wants to pay for it, fine. But as a taxpayer, I do not want to pay for it, nor do I expect to receive it should I reach that point. Stop this insanity and you will see a dramatic decline in health care costs.

Hal, the REREMF Lying Doofasss:
Have you ever been treated in a VA facility outside of D.C,? Or not gone in crowing about who you allegedly know? and what you will do if you do not get top of the line Medical care?

BTW, provide some proof for your assertion that the VA for all its faults has higher customer satisfaction than most any other US healthcare providers. Otherwise, it just another of your wild a**es assertions like TR protested American involvement in WW I.

tibby
The problem with the argument about all the spending in the last year of life, is this. We don't know what defines the last year of life until after the fact.

Copying downward
In 2000 the World Health Organization, which is a branch of the United Nations, ranked the health care systems of 191 countries.

The US came in FIRST in "overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts)".

Discussion on how to improve our existing system are certainly valid, but it is UTTERLY FOOLISH to try to improve our system by overhauling it to match systems in other countries that cannot match our responsiveness, patient satisfaction, and "how well" our system acts.

Jim @8:17AM
I too fear that is the direction that Obama and his allies in Congress are taking us. Anyone who wants to see the quality of healthcare that the government will give us need only look at American Indian healthcare on Reservations. It is deplorable. Or as lanczos points out @8:23PM, look at the free public health clinics or your local VA. I personally know several vets who have been suffering from medical problems for years and they receive little real help.

Do we really want the people who are responsible for the current economic situation in charge of our medical care? Do we really want the same people who spent thousands of dollars for toilets and wrenches running healthcare? Efficiency is hardly the hallmark of government.

Give me Liberity or Govt Healthcare
Again, Bingo...you are so clear in thought ... "Just as medical care, houses and cars were all cheaper when they lacked things that they have today, so medical care in other countries is cheaper when they lack many things that are more readily available in the United States."

The problem is most of us know this, yet the people who don't understand are still able to vote... Congress is so sick that no amount of free medicine will wake them from the dead.

We are busy forming coalitions, merging various org.s though out Northern Virginia to fight for issues, our rights and elect candidates from the ground up - ultimately replacing all of the malignant parties. I hope I live long enough to see it through to its fruition.
Sincerely your fan,
Laurel Guy

wiseone
"Date: Jun 30, 2009 - 9:24 AM EST...The US came in FIRST in "overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts)"..."

How about outcomes like longevity and infant mortality? If they are going to shorten my life I am not certain how responsive I want them to be. LOL

killer @8:43AM
I am seriously hoping that I do not understand your post correctly. Your contention appears to be that by eliminating healthcares “focus on the unhealthy” we will save money. Am I reading this correctly? It is kind of like saying by ending my focus on the reasons my car keeps breaking down I will lower the costs of upkeep for the car. Of course the car won’t run anymore but fixing it will certainly no longer cost me any money.

I get what you are saying about preventative medicine but I do not think that you realize that many medical problem are not only not preventable they cannot even be detected early. How does one detect epilepsy early? Do we get EEGs for every single person in the country? How about diabetes? Do we check everybody’s blood sugar?

Hal the REREMF Lying Doofasss
And just what do you think government run health care will do to your longevity? Given your weight, age, and apparent mental and physical disabilities, your health care will be strictly rationed.

SFA1973
"Date: Jun 30, 2009 - 9:19 AM EST
Hal,....Have you ever been treated in a VA facility outside of D.C,? Or not gone in crowing about who you allegedly know? and what you will do if you do not get top of the line Medical care?..."

I have never done that my disaffected Texan. Nor have I ever been treated at any VA facility only military and civilian facilities. Where I do get involved is when veterans have problems with the VA. So I see the dark side not just the good. You had a bad experience but percentage wise and no comfort to you so have many civilians that is why medmal lawyers live so well.

"...BTW, provide some proof for your assertion that the VA for all its faults has higher customer satisfaction than most any other US healthcare providers..."

Look it up it is in many medical mags and of course is probably on the VA website somewhere. I told you that I seldom provide links because they will never be "good" enough. The info is out there go get it.


13Bravo
Did you miss my admission about "Casualties"?

No, Hal the REREMF Lying Doofasss
You make the assertions. PROVE them, otherwise they just are more of your wild a**ed assertions like TR protesting American involvement in WW I.

So, Halthe REREMF Lying Doofasss
You have no actual experience about the level of treatment given in VA Hospitals. Maybe, you should try it sometime. It might just change your attitude.

BTW, I believe that you do go about crowing about who you allegedly know? and what you will do if you do not get top of the line Medical care? Mainly because you cannot resist bragging about who you know, and what you do.



I lived in Canada for 9 Years ,,,,
Thomas Sowell is 1000001 % Correct ''except ' .
It takes longer to get Major Surgeries and to See a Specialist .
It can take up to a year for many Surgeries .
What he didn't mention was being over 70 years of Age ..... Good Luck !
My Friends in Canada "Hate ' the Health there and the Rich come to America for quicker Surgeries and better care .
The decision on your treatment or None treatment is made by Govt. Bureaucrats not Drs. lastly .
I lived in Toronto for 9 years .

System & Cost

So, some of you want to replace the US system? Well, with what system?

The UK's system with its abyssmal record of delay, rationing and denial? Anyone with money will dig deep into their own pockets to pay for their care. The French's system where people go to private clinics to avoid the socialized system? How about Canada? Still subpar and people come here.

The US' survivability for cancer victims is 18% HIGHER than in Canada.

Having lived in the UK and in France, I can tell you that the problems with each system have NOTHING to do with insufficient funding. NOTHING.

Now, consider that the Federal government has been on spending, borrowing and printing binge, on and off, since 1913, when the Federal Reserve was created.

Yesterday afternoon, I was told by a Sr. VP in a publicly-traded bank that received TARP funds that it is the opinion of the bank, based on accumulated data, that the Fed has artificially kept interest rates 9% lower than they should be. This will not last for, at least, one reason: Inflation will help devalue the national debt.

So, when inflation comes back and people have less real income, how are you going to pay for ObamaCare?

foxyloxy
Having worked as a home health care nurse, I know that my clients never had to wait to see their physician.

You said:"Any technology is only as good as the practitioner using it. Nothing will ever replace the basic skills of carefully listening to, examining, and taking a complete history from a patient. Technology is only a means to an end."

Right and you have to be a darn good doctor to do this. Who do you think our physicians will be on a free for all system? Do you honestly think that a cardiac or neuro surgeon will accept a salary of $75,000 a year while our politicians stuff their pockets and cheeks until they look like chipmunks?

Look at obstetrics. Many doctors have left the field because their malpractice insurance is as much as what they. People who do NOT have legitimate claims file them anyway. What to do? Let us first start with the lawyers.

So MRI's are overused? Where did that come from? I made many trips for catscans when I worked ICU but MRI's were few and far between and were always justified.

But, if you're willing to pay a tax hike of a thousand dollars or so to pay for people who won't work, be my guest. If this parboiled rat of an idea goes through, I'll be waiting to hear that they won't take me because I am too old. The babies with multiple defects and people over 69 will be the first to be denied so that we can take care of some drunk who got hit by a car. Think you can get a good outcome on an alcoholic street urchin? Dream on.








We are headed for the dark ages.
Pharma will no longer have the profits to research new medicine.

Healthcare will be rationed by impersonal bureaucrats in government.

Insurance companies are not a panacea but government involvement will be far worse.
People that want "free healthcare" have not thought through the consequences. They have not thought past the "gimmee" stage.

We are "the stupid generation".

SFA1973-13-Bravo
Government Health is just another means by which the Liberals WILL assert CONTROL over our lives. Also they need to pay off these Core Constituencies for their votes: Dopers, Drunks, Skanks, Addicts and other ACORN members.

Hal
The WHO predicted that the AVERAGE life expectancy of children born in the US in 1999 would be 70.0 years, 24th in the world. Japan came in first at 74.4 years.

The usefulness of these numbers is extremely suspect since current NATURAL life expectancy exceeds 70 years in 110 countries, with some as high as 84.38 years.

From a UK press release.

"The WHO cites various causes for why the United States ranks relatively low among wealthy nations. These reasons include:


In the United States, some groups, such as Native Americans, rural African Americans and the inner city poor, have extremely poor health, more characteristic of a poor developing country rather than a rich industrialized one.

The HIV epidemic causes a higher proportion of death and disability to U.S. young and middle-aged than in most other advanced countries. HIV-AIDS cut three months from the healthy life expectancy of male American babies born in 1999, and one month from female lives;

The U.S. is one of the leading countries for cancers relating to tobacco, especially lung cancer Tobacco use also causes chronic lung disease.

A high coronary heart disease rate, which has dropped in recent years but remains high;

Fairly high levels of violence, especially of homicides, when compared to other industrial countries."


It's pretty obvious that the national "average" in the US is being brought way down by violence (murder is the single largest cause of death for black males aged 18 to 35) and AIDS, which kill young and middle-aged Americans rather quickly. What part of ObamaCare is going to prevent murder? Cure AIDS?

"Crooked health care providers" and "greedy insurance companies" are not listed, moron.

From Argus Hamilton In JWR
The White House announced Wednesday that President Obama will attend the Major League Baseball All-Star game in St. Louis in July. It's a ceremonial appearance. Before the game he is going to throw out the first ten amendments to the Constitution.



killer @9:45AM
Yes I saw that and was hoping that I misunderstood you. First off I am always fascinated by people who blithely speak of the deaths of others as a means to an end. You appear to think that in order to have affordable healthcare we should just let people die. Is that correct?

As for capitalism I do not think that you understand the concept completely. Capitalism is not about sacrificing the weak. A capitalist creates work for others. A capitalist creates advances such as those that save lives. A capitalist is not an animal who will sacrifice the lives of others for money. It is the systems of fascism, socialism and communism that sacrifice people for the benefit of the collective.

A choice Pt II
In my previous post I mis-identified a commenter, I should have referred to "Killer's" remarks. My apologies.

That same commenter referred to focusing on "Preventive Care", that is a good idea. The problem with that approach is that "preventive care" is something that the individual will have to choose. Will the government require you to 'voluntarily' submit to preventive care?

As increased government involvement in the health care sytem is realized measures will have to be enacted to 'reduce' the cost of health care. Costs will continue to rise.

Such measures as banning or controlling the sale of alcohol, tobacco, trans-fats, fast foods, snack foods will be then be enacted. Outright limitations or preferably taxes will be imposed. Taxes put money into the politicians' hands to buy votes.

Remember the lawsuit against tobacco companies? How much of that money received by the states went back into the health care system.

Health care cost reductions will then be targeted by groups. The elderly is an easy target, for it can be argued that they will not live as long therefore funding will be denied. The more subtle approach is to create shortages and make them wait. Then they will die while waiting for treatment or diagnoses.

Who's next after this proves to not be sufficient? I will post in Pt III

Some other problems too.
Hospitals in Canada and England are paid once a year (at the beginning of a year) for the entire year despite what diseases, surguries, etc. is done that year. As a result most hospitals have cut back on staff and number of beds to make the money last. They also cannot afford all the equipment our hospitals are expected to have such as EKG machines. I've seen a report from a Canadian doctor that stated that the hospitals there have ONE EKG to share between all hospitals in each province (state). Each gets it for one week in turn depending upon the number of hospitals.

Further, the U.S. does about 90% of all research now in medicine and in drugs. None of the medical groups in other countries can afford to do them because they can't get the money from the governments. In fact, the governments there tell them to "let the U.S. do it and then get the information from them".

It is possible to get by without a new car or a microwave. But if you have heart trouble or cancer, it isn't possible to get by without medical care unless you are willing to die. And that, unfortunately, is basically what happens in government-run health care. They make a decision on how important you are - and if you aren't important enough, you don't get the care. That means their costs are lower than the U.S. primarily because a large group of patients are allowed to die instead of paying to give them care and a longer life.

Are you ready for government-run medicine?

Point...no libs..not on your head....
There are more than four times as many Magnetic Resonance Imaging units (MRIs) per capita in the United States as in Britain or Canada, where there are government-run medical systems. There are more than twice as many CT scanners per capita in the United States as in Canada and more than four times as many per capita as in Britain.



Something to truly think about.
Of course, don't let facts get in the way of an emotional cause, dear libs......

13-Bravo

I have noticed that most of the people, who believe in universal health care, also buy into the "science" that "supports" Cap-n-Trade.

Paul Krugman says that there will be no net increase in employment should green energy eventually take the place of fossil fuels. Obama has admitted that the effect on emissions will be negligible. TARP companies, like GE & Goldman-Sachs, have already set up green energy branches to TRADE "exotic green energy financial instruments." One of the first supporters was ENRON. 'Nuff said.

As with Cap-n-Trade, prices will increase and there will exist rationing.


Libs, the Government is NOT your Fairy Godmother, whether it is under D or R control. And, it certainly is not the Tooth Fairy when it comes to paying for programs. If you think higher taxes will pay for your Otopia, you are delusional. We already have, at minimum, $50tn and $99tn on the high end in the unfunded mandates of SS, Medicaid, and Medicare. The average GDP in a good year is $14tn and tax revenues (again, in a good year) is ~$2.5tn.

Keep printing, borrowing and spending, but study the Weimar Govt. and Mugabe's Zimbabwe.

Great Article - Common Sense
It always amazes me how Dr. Sowell can simplfy difficult subjects with great analogies and plain common sense.
What's wrong with our politicians? OH, I know --no common sense, POWER and control over your life!!!

Cars vs Healthcare Costs??
Cars are safer, have more features, are much easier to maintain, and cost far less adjusted for inflation. Healthcare not only has risen in price drastically in the couple of decades, but the PROFITS are INCREDIBLE!

No comparison.

Pharmaceutical companies are making a killing. The advertising alone should tell you something. The pharmaceutical rep butters up the doctors and convinces them to push their products. The advertising, especially on TV, convinces the patient that they should be asking for the products.

Pharmaceutical companies obtain patents to products that have ingredients found in nature. Some have managed to convince the government to exclude import of those plants in to the US because the natural remedy would make their product obsolete (as it should be).

No comparison. No thought put into this paper. C- for effort, please go back and do more research. Maybe talk to the thousands of newly bankrupt families and get a new perspective.

NO GOV. RUN HEALTH CARE
Please, I have a daugher with a heart defect. She will probably we "to expensive" some day. If she were born 5 years before she was, she would have died due to lack of medical knowlege. Her surgeon went to school for TWELVE HARD YEARS. I want him to make as much money as possible. We ALL have access to health care. No one under 18 will ever be turned away. Our sugeon told us, if we didn't have insurance his staff would work on that for us and to NOT worry about money... My head is spinning with all of this and I am so scared. I have been in hospitals for 10 years and SEE what people go thru. Get the lawyers out of our system and it might start to get better. But the Gov. should NOT pay for it, or should I say the Gov. should NOT MAKE ME PAY FOR YOU! If it does I am watching everything you do, smoking, eating, activities ect ect. Do you really want what you are asking for??????

Natasha
Remember Natasha Richardson?
She would be alive today if she had been skiing in the good old USA instead of Canada!!
Sorry Canadiens but it's true!

Georgetwin @10:06AM
Agreed, this is just another ruse to give the government more control over Americans. It is for this reason that I have opposed such government intrusions into our lives such as seatbelt laws, helmet laws and restrictions on smoking. When we allow the government to dictate the little things it is not that big a leap for them to begin dictating on the more important things.

It is the same for cap and trade legislation. We will be told how much electricity and heat we can use. We will be told what kind of automobiles we can drive. With government control of healthcare we will be told what medical treatments we are allowed to have. We will be told what medications we can use. The implications are scary.

One of my questions is: where are all of the pro-abortion zealots? Where is their chant about keeping the government out of our control over our bodies? Why are they not raising a stink about having a government bureaucrat meddling in their reproductive rights and “stay out of my womb” talk?

tibby
"That same commenter referred to focusing on "Preventive Care", that is a good idea. The problem with that approach is that "preventive care" is something that the individual will have to choose."

You cannot choose preventive care. Preventive care is not on the insurer's RADAR, and it is typically not covered (nobody that I know has been able to get preventive measures covered).

There is no such thing as "preventive care" for the average US citizen unless you are going to pay for the procedure yourself. I tried to get a colonoscopy when I turned 40 for precautionary measures, and the doctor looked at me and asked "so when did the bleeding start?" Fortunately I got the procedure. Unfortunately they now assume I have a preexisting condition.

There is NO WAY that I could afford a colonoscopy. After I have spent several $100,000s on medical insurance, it is so nice to see the insurance companies return favor with a little preventive medicine.

St. Denis In Obama's Red America
"Date: Jun 30, 2009 - 9:57 AM EST...The US' survivability for cancer victims is 18% HIGHER than in Canada..."

Really??? How about their mortality rate that is the real statistic. Stop playing with numbers geesh

The cost of Health Care
The free markets have a better way to provide services and to regulate costs, but government has to set the table. A wise health insurance plan for America should include the following parameters for measuring success.

1. Everyone should be able to participate.
2. Everyone should pay a portion of the bill.
3. All medical services provided should be compensated at the rate of "reasonable and customary."
4. Insurance companies, not government, should hold the money and pay the claims.
5. Insurance companies, not government, should determine effective protocols.
6. Services provided and paid for should include traditional medical procedures as well as Chiropractors, nutritionists, herbalists and others who can demonstrate success to the insurance companies.
7. With everyone insured, a cap should be placed on all mal-practice law suits.

wiseone
"Date: Jun 30, 2009 - 10:12 AM EST
Hal
The WHO predicted that the AVERAGE life expectancy of children born in the US in 1999 would be 70.0 years, 24th in the world. Japan came in first at 74.4 years.

The usefulness of these numbers is extremely suspect since current NATURAL life expectancy exceeds 70 years in 110 countries, with some as high as 84.38 years."

and infant mortality which is a pretty concrete number?

From a UK press release....It's pretty obvious that the national "average" in the US is being brought way down by violence (murder is the single largest cause of death for black males aged 18 to 35) and AIDS, which kill young and middle-aged Americans rather quickly. What part of ObamaCare is going to prevent murder? Cure AIDS?..."

Preventive care will address HIV and decent wages and the ending of conservatism (sorry had to toss this in) will begin to restore family values. Until we Americans stop worshiping tools (that is all guns are) our soldiers will remain safer in combat zones than on the US Street.

"..."Crooked health care providers" and "greedy insurance companies" are not listed, moron."

Did I say a word about "Crooked health care providers" and "greedy insurance companies"? Try inefficient and too expensive that I might go along with

Thomas Sowell
Thank you for writing your latest book. The Housing Boom and Bust. It was so clear. I read it out loud to my family as we drove on vacation. Excellent.

13-Bravo
It is interesting that you brought up reproductive rights. I made a similar argument after I read parts of the Obama-Kennedy-Dodd bill. The bill would make a patient's medical records the property of the doctor's office, which would have to open up all files for inspection by the government.

This violates the 4th Amendment, i.e., search and seizure, and where is our RIGHT TO PRIVACY? The records are the private property of the patients and the government must get a search warrant before it can access them.

Will the government take information about our diet and personal behavior, then turn around and tell us that we will be denied health care in a uhc system if we do not meet Federal standards?

Universal Medical Care
In Brazil we have a "universal" system, but politicians, specially socialist politicians like Lulla never make use of it. They rather go to private top medical services despite their beautiful speechs about free medical assistance.
Is it hipocrisy or not?!

A choice Pt III
When targeting of the elderly or terminally ill has run its course and costs need to be reduced, further measures will be enacted. It will be politically untenable initially to limit health care based on lifestyle choices. HIV is identified with the Gay community more than the heterosexual community. Gays are active as a political group, heterosexuals are not. It is about voting blocks of active groups.

Too many Christians are easy targets for the collectivist mind. After all isn't it about helping your fellow man? Virtue however is about what you do with your time and money, not someone else's. Salvation comes to the individual, not the collective.

Expensive cancer and cardiac treatments will be limited. Cancer will be the easiest to target. All you have to do is prolong the diagnoses through waiting for testing and more will fall into the "terminal" category.

The person that controls the purse strings will control the health care system. Anyone that believes that government money will not lead to government control is deluding themselves.

I could continue, but much of what I have indicated has happened, or is in the process. The models exist in other countries.

Cost control can only be enacted by the one who pays the bill and accepts the responsibility. If that entity is the government there will be no valid, moral control mechanism.

It still boils down to who is morally responsible for your health care. If you say "we as a society", a.k.a. "government" then you are now responsible for my health care. I will list you as the responsible party and you will be required to pay for my health care. You can pay me directly and avoid the middle-man government. In that way costs can be reduced. Isn't that what you want ?

Hal, the REREMF Lying Doofasss
What, no response to my post about the quality of care in VA facilities.

Or to: You have no actual experience about the level of treatment given in VA Hospitals. Maybe, you should try it sometime. It might just change your attitude.

BTW, I believe that you do go about crowing about who you allegedly know? and what you will do if you do not get top of the line Medical care? Mainly because you cannot resist bragging about who you know, where you go, and what you do.


Thomas from Texas
Why? If I don't want insurance I should not have to buy it. If I want health insurance I should have to buy my own. The government does not exist to supply my needs. The government exists to make law and enforce law. I believe prices would fall if everyone bought their own and companies were no longer in charge of providing it as a benefit. Lawyers control the government. They will not give up their lawsuits.

St. Denis @10:30AM
Yes the progressive/liberal mind seems to buy into any and all pseudo-science nonsense and discount the voices of scientists who dissent. One of the things that really ticks me off is that when their little experiments fail and cause harm they nearly always refuse to accept responsibility for the damage they do. To this day no progressive/liberal will admit to the damage done to the country by welfare, affordable housing legislation or a myriad of other ill-conceived legislation they pushed.

Personally I think that when they talk about “green energy” they are talking about the green money the leaders of these scams are pocketing. Hey libs, remember Deep Throat (of Watergate fame not the movie)? Remember his instruction to follow the money? Why don’t you try doing that now?

If I were simply being selfish
I'd choose the Canadian or Swedish, UK, French, Spanish systems ANY day.

I'd pay less. I'd have a better shot of living longer. I'd never worry about going bankrupt. I'd feel better with a lower infant mortality rate. I'd be taking my family to the doctors more often instead of riding out the high fevers because the co-pays and extra billing we always receive are a shock to our expenses.

So lets see: pay less, longer life, fewer worries. Hmmm. Tough choice.

We travel a lot and have friends overseas. They respond exactly as those in Sicko -- they cannot imagine the fear that pervades the US system. They have never had a long wait for medical attention (unlike several in my family in the US). They go to the doctor's office or hospital when they feel it is the best choice medically, not after they first consult their bank accounts. They do not worry about bankruptcies.

You will see more Cons drop off of these discussions as they learn of family bankruptcies. #1 indicator of bankruptcies among insured families... medical costs.

health insurance
The reason that medicare came into being,was that insurance companies would not insure older people,simply because they cost them more money.All states have insurance commissioners,they should have made the insurance company cover those people.Raise the rates if need be,just as it is done with other types of insurance.I just had an insurance company that I have been using for 30 years raise my premiums 300 dollars in one year.I have never filed a claim in those 30 years.

O Macabre
Obamacare is O Macabre because more people would die while waiting for medical diagnosis and care. Anyone promoting (or glorifying) medical care elsewhere does not know what or how it happens in other countries. Only individuals who know about what actually transpires in other countries cannot speak to the issues because they are already dead.

In the majority 10:44 AM
My insurance pays 100% of preventative care. Myself, my husband and our 3 children can have a physical once a year including a blood workup and it is 100% paid. This also includes immunizations for our children, yearly mammograms for women over the age of 35 and colonoscopies every 10 years starting at the age of 40. The company I work for realized 4 years ago, when they started this type of insurance, that it would cost much less for healthcare if it focused on preventative medicine. They also offer free smoking cessation classes and pay for the meds to assist with quiting smoking and many other things that are too numerous to mention.

Som inthemajority,
Since, you love the Canadian or Swedish, UK, French, Spanish systems, do us all a favor, pick one of those countries, and move there.

13-Bravo

They NEVER admit when they are wrong. Their go-to answer is always "if we had more money..."

Money does not answer every question. We have ~800,000 doctors in this country, ~250mn with insurance and ~50mn without insurance. Even if ObamaCare would cover everyone and pay for itself, the question that would still remain is this: Where is the government going to get the doctors, medical staff, and hospitals overnight to treat 50mn more people? RATIONING is the only answer to the problem relative to a shortage in medical personnel and facilities.

Recurrent theme in our medical care
We go to physicians to fix something that is broken. But the resounding story in both places that I worked (ICU Pediatrics 10 years and Home Health 4 years) is that half of the patients would not have been there if the parents had practiced 1) preventative medicine and 2)common sense.

We have so much information one what to do to prevent disease around diet, exercise, and the "do not's"...smoking and excessive use of alcohol. How many of us make it a point to eat lean meats, plenty fresh fruit and different vegetables,and cut down on super sweet deserts or snacks. Drink enough fluid? Get enough fiber?

As to the common sense part. NEVER assume that your child will be hindered by a fence to get into a pool or near a creek/river. Same goes for hot tubs with covers. Never leave a pot of hot food or liquid on stove which the child can reach. Store all medications and vitamin supplements under lock and key. Always use the car seat or seat belts. I could go on but I think the point if fairly clear.

To give you an example of what kids can do. We had two brothers arrive in our unit with 3rd degree burns. One was burnt over 98% of his body; the other, 96%. How did this happen? They were playing with a neighbor child and painted themselves with regular house paint. The neighbor child lit a match...need I say more.

And last but not least, if you, your husband or a boyfriend is out of control with anger towards your baby or toddler, seek help immediately. In the 10 years I was in ICU, I probably took care of 5 children each year who were abused and died despite our efforts.

SFA1973-StD-13-Bravo-Others
Day after Day, America Hating Liberals come on the threads and say how much BETTER Canada/Sweden/England/etc is than America. WHY don’t they move to the Socialist Shitehole of their choice and $TFU!

Question for the Aforementioned Liberal Imbeciles. If Communist Medical Care is SO GREAT, why did Castro fly in a doctor from Spain when he was ailing?

Georgetwin

They refuse to believe our accounts when we lived in the countries. Further, like all Socialists, etc., that they will be able to succeed where everyone else has failed.

St. Denis @10:53AM
I’m not surprised that this has occurred to others. It is seems obvious that the pro-abortion crowd are only opposed to government intervention into American’s health when it bears on their support for abortion. When a real threat to the privacy of American’s healthcare arises they are suspiciously silent.

Only an idiot wants the government to have access to his private records without a warrant, medical or other records. As you say it is a violation of the 4th Amendment. Of course I have long argued that anyone who is willing to dismiss the 2nd Amendment is also willing to dismiss other rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights.

As a fat man I can conceivably be denied medical help until my weight meets some arbitrary standard. My brother is a smoker who has tried to quit for years; it is conceivable that he will be denied medical assistance until he has kicked the habit and tests prove it. Where does it end?

Canada medical care
inthemajority - I don't know what you are in the majority of - but anyway, we lived in Canada and have lots of friends there. They wait months for MRI's, wait months for surgery. They can't schedule trips because they can't get surgery done and don't have any idea when it will be done. They find out a doctor they have had before or are familiar with has moved to the US and they can't get in with another Dr. They are retired and medical costs don't cost them much money. It does cost the tax payers though.

Celeste
Date: Jun 30, 2009 - 11:07 AM EST
"My insurance pays 100% of preventative care. Myself, my husband and our 3 children can have a physical once a year including a blood workup and it is 100% paid..."

WOW! What insurance? How much in premiums? I am self insured, and would be surprised if I could afford it, but it almost sounds as good as what I would get in Canada.

Rising cost of heathcare crisis
When Obama took office in January, he stated that the economy was in crisis and had to be dealt with immediately. After the bloated stimulus bill (which hasn't stimulated anything) passed, he than stated that the #1 reason the economy was in crisis was because of the rising cost of healthcare and that healthcare reform had to be dealt with immediately. Since when does healthcare have anything to do with the housing market and all those toxic loans make by government lenders Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?

StD
That could be, but it seems to be rooted in some LOATHING of this country. NOTHING about America is good. EVERYTHING about America is broken and so forth and so on.

SFA1973
"Som inthemajority," ??

"Since, you love the Canadian or Swedish, UK, French, Spanish systems, do us all a favor, pick one of those countries, and move there."

Duuuuhhhhh. OK, George. Guess it is asking too much to help improve on an area where the US could be doing better.

*Enter Con humor mode*: Hey SFA1973 in TX... do us a favor and secede from the US. Ha ha ha (Con chortle) ha ha, snort. LOL, LOL, LOLOLOL! High fives all around to my best mullet buddies!

There must be some TH rule that states every rational Con response must be followed by at least one irrational doofus response.

Congratulations on being a TH statistic, SFA1973.

13-Bravo

Obama talks about a health care board along the lines of the UK's NICE Board. If this is not enough to scare the cr@p out of everyone.

Where would it end conceivably? How about pencil pushers in DC deciding that a woman can't have her unborn child because it is defective or because she already has 3 kids? Could China's one-child policy be far behind?

As for the Constitution, they hate it because it is full of negative rights; i.e., it limits the power of the Politburo.

"Congress Shall Make No Law" ... The Supreme Court tells Congress to read the damn Constitution. Child pornography does NOT violate the 1st Amendment unless it is found to be obscene according to local standards.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/34243.html

The "General Welfare" clause is extremely limited and mandates that which is done for one group must be given to all.

ObamaCare fails to meet both tests in the General Welfare Clause.


Now, who was the original "Party of NO"? The answer is the FOUNDING FATHERS.

Medical Care, such as it is
. I’m certainly for taking responsibility for my own health and believe in the choice of healthcare versus the government mandated, ram it down your throat kind but some major changes are needed. For one, pharmaceutical companies need to be reigned-in big time in the way they peddle their poisons and gouge the public. Next, the freeloading deadwood insurance sector with questionable value-added contributions needs to be eliminated or at least shrunk to a reasonable level. We must also find a better process/mechanism that tamps down the greed from the medical establishment and the spiraling costs (other than the insurance quagmire). The medicos need to spend at least 50% of their efforts on prevention and not primarily in treating symptoms with the poisons of their buddies in the pharma industry. The process must be simplified so these rip-off artists don’t find 101 ways to gouge you and everyone knows up-front what they are getting into. In my opinion, the biggest problem is greed followed by a confusing (purposeful?) process. Doctors, like lawyers need to be taken down a peg or two; they are not, repeat NOT, the demigods they make themselves out to be and the dupes who believe it!

Georgetwin
"Day after Day, America Hating Liberals come on the threads and say how much BETTER Canada/Sweden/England/etc is than America. WHY don’t they move to the Socialist Shitehole of their choice and $TFU!"

Statistic #2 in an endless series.

I just figured out that absolutely everything in the US is incredibly great! Perfect! No need to make things better.

Thank you TH, for making my life complete. No need to debate anything the US does for any reason. All others, please move to a "socialist" country and $TFU.

America! America! We rock.. except for those darn Libs. Oh wait... America isn't perfect!!! What do we do? What do we do?

Cons -- we have a logic issue to tackle. How is America so perfect (i.e., love it or leave it) and yet we have to argue against Liberals? How do we get around this conundrum? We are hypocrites!

Government in Health Care
The government is already in our health care. First, they own and run all VA hospitals. If you really want to see how they would run everything else, take a look. As a vet myself, I go to the local doctor and pay every time. Something like 60-70% of their treatments don't turn out right for some reason.

However, they are also in our health care. One the main reasons costs are so high is due to the court suits for malpractice based on the laws that the government keeps passing. I once went to an emergency room for de-hydration. All I needed was something that would help me keep down liquids I was drinking rather than throw them immediately back up. I had to take an entire battery of expensive tests to protect the hospital from being sued later for not checking various things. I had the expense because of the government.

These tests are not only not required in places like England, you would be lucky to get them done if you requested them yourself there. So our costs are due a lot due to our government here - but they want to take over so they can rule you no longer can get them even if you need them. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

Adman 9:22/ Inthemajority 10:44
Adman you are correct. My mom was given 6 months to live. She lived another 3 1/2 years. Her treatments were less expensive than many others. Only after the fact can a statistic be collected. Who is wise enough in government to make choices for your health care?

Inthemajority: You are mixing two things. Choosing preventive care and paying for it are two different things. That is part of the difficulty in controlling costs. When you are not the one footing the bill it is often viewed as "free". When doctors have to run a battery of tests more to avoid lawsuits rather than provide health care that too drives up costs.

In terms of prevention there are many things you can choose insofar as lifestyle is concerned. A pre-disposition to certain diseases is more a function of DNA.

The person who chooses to remain obese assumes a greater risk of diabetes. Obesity is a choice? Obesity basically occurs when you take in more calories than your body can use. I believe that for most obesity is a choice.
There are some who have a medical condition that screws up their metabolic system, that is likely more a genetic condition.

In the end which bureaucracy would you prefer to deal with, an insurance company or the government? In either case who is morally responsible for your health care?

If government is so concerned about the health of the American people, give tax credits for medical expenses, insurance premiums, and allow for health savings accounts for all. Don't hold your breath. If Government does not control the money they lose power over you. In the end this about control of you, no matter how altruistic the motivations of liberals seem.

inthemajority
Actually, I was being sarcastic. You do know what that is, don't you. Then again, maybe you were never taught what it is.

BTW, how does the government taking over medical care improve it? I assume you have never been inside a VA Hospital. If you had, you would see just how bad government run healthcare is.

Even Obumf^ck said he would go outside a national healthcare system to get the best care for his family. Additionally, he has said that rationing care will be necessary, if the ppatient is old, infirm, or has a major didease. What does that say about what he thinks about a national healthcare system.

If the Canadian system is so good why are private clinics outside of the system opening up? Why do many Canadians opt to cross the border and get treatment in the US?

I guess like any lib, you'd rather surrender all your life's decisions to the government, and let someone else pay the freight for those decisions.

If the British system is so great, why does the Royal Family avoid the National Healthcare System in Britain as do many of its politicians, business leaders, and others who can afford to go elsewhere?

If the French system is so great why did 13,000+ die from heat stroke, heat exhaustion, and related illness a few years back? Could it be that the unionized government employees of the system thought their vacations were more important than the people who were affected by the heat?

BTW, inthemajority, if Texas did secede from the union, you'd have a helluva time getting natural gas, refined petroleum products, microchips for your IPhone, and other cell phones, fresh fruits and vegetables, beef, air travel, computers, etc.


I'v read this before
While I like this argument, it is not original. Just yesterday George Will wrote the very same thing in his weekly column...No less valid, but not very original.

I think it's time to move now toward making this argument part of the national dialog on health care -- of course it costs more when your basic stuff is more advanced and your advanced stuff is out of this world compared to previous times.

Government Health Care Insurance
If you really want to solve the health care problems in the U.S. at a cheaper price, simply have the government put everyone not on any health care on the government health care program. It is one of the best in the country and they already have the insurance set up in place. Cost per month is very low to the workers - generally about $150 a month. The government could put all the rest of the non-insured on it for far less than they propose with their new system and get a far better program than what they propose as well. And it would cost us poor taxpayers a lot less too.

The #1 Reason Against ObamaCare

Yes, it would cost more and lead to rationing, but the fact that DC politicians would not be subjected to ObamaCare is the reason that you should be against it.

If it is not good enough for the politicians, why would you think that it is good enough for YOU?

Real Fact
About twenty years ago my wife worked as a receptionist for a surgen - a good one. She also filed many of his papers for him.

At that time he was paying $10,000 a month in malpractice insurance and was generally sued at least once a month. It wasn't because he had done anything wrong as it was proved in court several times; it was because a lawyer would convince some poor soul that they could get rich by suing. (and the lawyer would get 1/3 to 1/2 of the money.)

I can understand why doctors have to charge as much as they do. Can you guess the present day cost of malpractice insurance?

One of the main reasons we have such good health care in Texas is because they passed a law a few years ago that limits malpractice charges to the actual cost of treatment + no more than $100,000. In other words, they can no longer sue and expect to get rich in Texas. So we have good medicine now.

Polls
Recent polls indicate that 85% of Americans are satisfied with their health care and wish to keep it. Of the 15% who do not have health care, over half can afford it but choose not to make it a priority. That was the finding in Massachusetts. (lots of 20 and 30-somethings choose to roll the dice.) So do the math. We are making this monstrous mistake--moving to cradle to grave socialism for a very few people. Why not tweak the system to solve the actual problem?

"The greatest political evil man can perpetrate is to willfully destroy a system that works." That's what Progressives live for. Our health care system is not perfect, but it works for all but 7% of the population. They are not left to die on the sidewalk, but are treated for free. We can find a way to cover them without bankrupting hospitals.

How about the establishment of a voluntary charitable fund to supplement what churches and private charities already do? Contributions would be tax-deductible. Oh, I forgot. Obama doesn't want any solutions that don't involve punishing the rich. He said he woulfd raise capital gains taxes even though it would result in less revenue for the government, because it was fair. (Fair is punishing the rich.) Obama wants us average and affluent to be in The People's Clinic, waiting for months to get an appointment, then sitting in a dark hallway, waiting for hours in our gowns with the backs flapping open.

reply to post # 5
Why should insurance companies be required to cover preexisting conditions. That would be like buying collision coverage for your car the day after getting in a wreck and expecting to be reimbursed for repairs.
Health insurance is protection for future risk. It is not a way to finance your health problems. Your mentality is a big reason why costs are so high. People feel they have a right to medical care. They do only if they can pay. This country is built on the right of every individual to be successful. The right to pursue of happiness does not come with a guaranty.
American Conservatives are far more generous with cheritible contributions than their liberal counterparts but resent the government forcing them to pay the way for freeloaders.

My worry
about nationalized healthcare is that my Primary Care Physician has said that if it comes about he is quitting his practice, and will take a teaching/research position he has been repeatedly offered, and he is not the only physician I have heard say the very same thing. He's been my Primary Care Physician, and I trust him implicitly. If he quits, I suspect some government bureaucrat will assign to some physician I neither know nor trust.

Insurance
I my adult life I have had no health insurance, self paid health insurance, the more normal "80-20" health insurance, and now a Health Savings Account. My deductible, for my spouse and I, is $3,000 per year. In the event of a major medical expense, I pay the first 3K, then insurance kicks in and pays the rest. (So far, the HSA is the best idea I've seen or had... and far better than any government plan.)

When I had no insurance, I worked hard and improved my standing until I had enough to purchase my own. Then I worked harder and found a job with health insurance as a benefit.

What I did not do... what my parent (my mother was a widow) and my grandparents did not do, was beg their neighbors for free coverage. And that, when you expect the government to fund your health care, is exactly what you are doing.

If you want government health care, I have a suggestion. Go next door and see how your neighbors are doing. If they need to pay a medical bill, pay it for them. You cut out the middle man that way. If you don't want to do that, don't expect other working Americans to pay your bills.

The government is primarily responsible
for the rising costs of healthcare. The government controls the purse strings for Medicare and Medicaid. Currently the government reimburses hospitals and providers 60% of the total cost- and sometimes less because there are strings attached.Who pays the other 40%? To make up that 40%, hospitals and providers charge the self pay and the insured more, which in turn increases insurance premiums. Obama has stated that he will cut Medicare and Medicaid payments by 200 billion dollars. Where are people going to go for their healthcare when nonprofit hospitals across the country are forced to close their doors and doctors leave the profession because they can't afford to pay their staff plus their malpractice insurance?

SFA1973
"Obumf^ck"

Typical Con.

The health care impossibility
In SF when my daughter was born, the hospital wanted $600 per night, while my wife was in labor. When my daughter was born they raised the price to $900 per night. I asked them why. They said since my daughter was in the room the nurses would come in at night. I was in the room at night and no one came in. I told them so and told them to take it off the bill. They fought and fought but finally relented. On the same bill they charged for 2 deliveries, aspirin she didn't get. The bill came to $16000. This was in 1992. I found so many fake charges the bill came down to
$11000. I had blue cross ppo and used preferred doctors. They kept trying to charge me for a non ppo price on 2 doctors which had come into our room for what I don't know. After months of arguing they dropped those charges. They tried to take me to collections for $60 of unpaid copay which turned out to be already paid. The final conclusion, they told me because blue cross only pays $2500 anyways.

Bottom line, the whole thing is a rip off. In taiwan Great hospital, stay for a week, c-section, all food paid, $2500 us.


So many of you are thieves
I'm astounded how so many people posting on this thread are indignant that they have a need, can't afford to pay for it, and are outraged that the government doesn't go get it for them.

All of you are nothing but thieves. What right do you have to place claims on the propery of others. I don't care what your need is.

Someone said how terrible it was that an illness that wasn't anticipated drove somebody into bankruptcy. Why wasn't it anticpated? That is what insurance is for. You didn't think you needed it and you decided you could use the money for something else. All at once the unexpected happens, and you fashion yourself as a victim and someone else is supposed to come to the rescue.

I have abolutely no pity for you. Just because you are stupid and/or irresponsible doesn't give you the right to make your problem become mine.

What part of our system or culture has propagated this intense greed on the part of people who don't have enough sense to address their own needs? You are deserving of whatever befalls you. It's no one's fault but your own. Deal with it.

.
If you're checking your bank account before going to the hospital, your priorities are in the wrong order.

inthemajority
How many times did I see libs call Bush Hitler, Chimpy, Dumbya, Torturer, etc? Didn't see you protesting then. Typical lib.

I, also, notice, that you did NOT answer my questions. Why is that? Either you have no answer or your implanted in your "brain" DU, DNC, DailyKOS, etc talking points chip is not programmed to answer those type of questions

InTheMajority
Typical Liberal Coward.

Health savings accounts
Also known as HSA's. Over the last month I have seen numerous people talk about wishing health savings accounts were made available to everyone. THEY ARE. Anyone can open a HSA account, most banks now have these accounts. The government regulates how much can be contributed to these accounts annually (like a IRA). For the current year 2009, a single person can contribute $3000, a married couple or family $5950. If you are age 55 or older you can contribute an additional $1000 on top of these numbers. The money can only be used for approved expenses-usually medically related expenses such as doctor visits, medications, eyeglasses. The account earns interest tax free and it rolls over from year to year.

Free enterprise
The reason why we shouldn't support Obama's Government Health Care plan? That's an easy one: Socialism doesn't work. Period.
Unfortunately , the greed, the corruption, and the financial oppression in the current system are not working, either.
Unless the American people find a way, and find it quickly, to extricate the lawyers, the CFO's, and the HMO's from the current system, which are gorging on that system like bloated blood ticks on a hound dog's carcass, we are inevitably drifting toward socialized medicine. The current system works wonderfully for the few, but not so good, and in many cases, not at all, for the many. And dice it anyway you like, that's the truth.
Also, if Congress institutes a Socialized medicine plan for Americans, then it is NECESSARY (for the sake of the continued existence of the American 'dream' of freedom and equality for all) that we see Congress standing in the SAME lines, with the same wait periods for specialized procedures, that all other Americans do when it comes to receiving their treatment. Because if Congress DOESN'T stand in those lines, there will not be a dime's worth of difference between the U.S. Congress and the old Soviet Communist Party, and the specialized preferences that it gave itself in ALL areas over the Russian people back in the days of "Communism". Congress is NOT an Aristocracy, contrary to what some of its members may think- they are the representitives of the people of the United States.

Here's what America is getting!
For our $1.6T+ we will be getting this http://theblacksphere.net/site/obamacare-america-gets-new- proctologist/

Enjoy one of the best blogs on the internet!

Expanding on Sowell's dissertation
So far we haven't socialized the risk of not having all the bells and whistles that come with our new cars, as we do socialize the risks of having expensive diseases, i.e., Sowell's example is irrelevant.

The postulate of Sowell's dissertation is that new and better technology is the cause of higher health care prices and that newer and better technology equals better care.

As I've posted in response to George Will's blog today, investment in health care technology is driven by physicians and hospitals whose motivations are very often a desire to practice in an interesting and lucrative specialty and the desire for prestige. That sort of investment competes with the actual consumer needs for less exotic primary and preventive and emergency care needs. So, don't listen to Sowell. He doesn't seem to understand the how and why of medical care costs. I've reproduced my post to Will, below.

Will does bring up a point that almost 100% of the pundits are afraid to touch, which is that the