Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, February 14, 2008
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who Is "Fascist"?
by Thomas Sowell
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Those who put a high value on words may recoil at the title of Jonah Goldberg's new book, "Liberal Fascism." As a result, they may refuse to read it, which will be their loss -- and a major loss.

Those who value substance over words, however, will find in this book a wealth of challenging insights, backed up by thorough research and brilliant analysis.

This is the sort of book that challenges the fundamental assumptions of its time -- and which, for that reason, is likely to be shunned rather than criticized.

Because the word "fascist" is often thrown around loosely these days, as a general term of abuse, it is good that "Liberal Fascism" begins by discussing the real Fascism, introduced into Italy after the First World War by Benito Mussolini.

The Fascists were completely against individualism in general and especially against individualism in a free market economy. Their agenda included minimum wage laws, government restrictions on profit-making, progressive taxation of capital, and "rigidly secular" schools.

Unlike the Communists, the Fascists did not seek government ownership of the means of production. They just wanted the government to call the shots as to how businesses would be run.

They were for "industrial policy," long before liberals coined that phrase in the United States.

Indeed, the whole Fascist economic agenda bears a remarkable resemblance to what liberals would later advocate.

Moreover, during the 1920s "progressives" in the United States and Britain recognized the kinship of their ideas with those of Mussolini, who was widely lionized by the left.

Famed British novelist and prominent Fabian socialist H.G. Wells called for "Liberal Fascism," saying "the world is sick of parliamentary politics."

Another literary giant and Fabian socialist, George Bernard Shaw, also expressed his admiration for Mussolini -- as well as for Hitler and Stalin, because they "did things," instead of just talk. In Germany, the Nazis followed in the wake of the Italian Fascists, adding racism in general and anti-semitism in particular, neither of which was part of Fascism in Italy or in Franco's Spain.

Even the Nazi variant of Fascism found favor on the left when it was only a movement seeking power in the 1920s.

W.E.B. DuBois was so taken with the Nazi movement that he put swastikas on the cover of a magazine he edited, despite complaints from Jewish readers.

Even after Hitler achieved dictatorial power in Germany in 1933, DuBois declared that the Nazi dictatorship was "absolutely necessary in order to get the state in order."

As late as 1937 he said in a speech in Harlem that "there is today, in some respects, more democracy in Germany than there has been in years past."

In short, during the 1920s and the early 1930s, Fascism was not only looked on favorably by the left but recognized as having kindred ideas, agendas and assumptions.

Only after Hitler and Mussolini disgraced themselves, mainly by their brutal military aggressions in the 1930s, did the left distance themselves from these international pariahs.

Fascism, initially recognized as a kindred ideology of the left, has since come down to us defined as being on "the right" -- indeed, as representing the farthest right, supposedly further extensions of conservatism.

If by conservatism you mean belief in free markets, limited government, and traditional morality, including religious influences, then these are all things that the Fascists opposed just as much as the left does today.

The left may say that they are not racists or anti-semites, like Hitler, but neither was Mussolini or Franco. Hitler, incidentally, got some of his racist ideology from the writings of American "progressives" in the eugenics movement.

Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism" is too rich a book to be summarized in a newspaper column. Get a copy and start re-thinking the received notions about who is on "the left" and who is on "the right." It is a book for people who want to think, rather than repeat rhetoric.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Thomas Sowell and Townhall.com's daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
OK
a book reviewed by a trusted author like Sowell is now a "must read."

The same old lie
Yep, American liberals are really fascists because we believe in minimum wage laws and separation of chuch and state, "just like Mussolini". Of course, Mussolini was a brutal dictator and all that, but really, let's focus on what's REALLY important- like the fact that George Bernard Shaw said nice things about him! That means if you elect Obama, he's going to overthrow our democracy just like the fascists did in Italy!!!!!!

Sounds a bit like old John Birch Society paranoia? Next we'll be hearing about flouridated water.....

Get out the tin foil hats and fit Sowell and Goldberg for a pair each:)

Of course they're racists
Democrats are always the ones who insist upon treating people of different races differently. Lowering college admission standards and hiring requirements for blacks is based upon the assumption that blacks cannot compete. What an insult! And of course, the Democrat party can boast of famous racists in its ranks, such as Robert Byrd, Bull Connor, and Lester Maddox.

Who is Fascist
To think how we have fought all kinds of isms
and now the U.S. Gov't. practices it. This article is absolutely right.

laborlawyer
Your "reasoned argument" sounds like a labor lawyer!

Whatever..
Makes about as much sense as Conservative Communism. Karl Marx, I mean Karl Rove was striving for a permanent Republican majority after all, wasn't he?
Sounds like Stalin, huh? Golberg is relly reaching.
It makes you think, NOT.

laborlawyer and wrightsrong52 both write
It's not a duck, it's not a duck! Just because it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck doesn't mean IT'S A DUCK!

And by the way it was Hitler that announced the National Socialist Party was a SOCIALIST party. But still IT'S NOT A DUCK!

It Takes A Liberal To Redefine So Well
It Takes A Liberal To Redefine So Well

Absolute freedom of preference is an oxymoron. Freedom is not Absolute, freedom of preference is conditional to the desired outcome or consequence..

Liberals cannot even recognize substance because they think in terms of absolutes, concerning conditional consequences of personal choice.

Absolutes in regards to preference, as freedom, ignores that absolute freedom of preference is a paradox, since we must ignore or disregard absolute principle and law and therefore unwittingly we reap uncertain and undesirable results.

Absolute leadership control is a dictatorship. There is no freedom where laws override the freedom of choice which becomes the inevitable outcome of absolute freedom of preference. Absolute freedom of preference disregards principle and law, and the disregard for principle and law leads to Chaos. Chaos leads to martial law which in effect is a dictatorship.

Illegal Immigration as one such example, but there are so many more that are threatening our freedom. The use of deception in business and daily discourse is such an abuse, as likewise is deception in politics is another such abuse.

The second, fourth to seventh comments are example of confused realities, slurred and blurred definitions and verbiage designed to confuse and create chaos. Intellect gone astray.

No offence intended. But you may just prove me wrong. Be my Guest.

Nothing new here
"Makes about as much sense as Conservative Communism."

If you are talking about "right wing fascism", you are absolutely correct. The simple fact is that historians, economists and political scientists (that is, everyone who has actually looked at the issue rather than relying on knee-jerk reactions and liberal nonsense) has known all along that fascism has NEVER been anything but a form of totalitarian socialism.

Fasciam (or the correctly titled national socialism) entails intervention in the economy in such a way that prices, wages, production levels, who can buy, who can sell. etc. are ALL determined by the state. Individual economic liberty does not exist. Only the terms of capitalism are retained - nothing of actual capitalism remains. In fact, the early fascist thinkers admitted outright that the key aspect of fascism was the elimination of private property in favor of state or collective property.

Instead of facing reality, liberals keep repeating the pretense that fascism was run by or benefited capitalists when in (easily verified) reality, nothing of the kind took place. A few individuals were benefited at the expense of everyone else (mostly those involved with militray industries) but this is what has happened in every attempt to implement a system as corrupt as socialism (modern liberalism).

The next time someone attempts to protray conservatism as fascist, it is necessary to label them properly: "uneducated, ill informed blithering idiot".

You misunderstand
"Yep, American liberals are really fascists because we believe in minimum wage laws and separation of chuch and state..."

Nice try. The reality is this: American liberals are socialists and fascism has never been anything more than a variant of socialism.

Of course, the embrace of a policy that accomplishes nothing but putting people out of work (the minimum wage) makes such individuals uneducated fools, but that's hardly unusual either.

"Of course, Mussolini was a brutal dictator and all that, but really, let's focus on what's REALLY important- like the fact that George Bernard Shaw said nice things about him!"

Shaw was praising the same things about fascism that modern liberals clamor for. His praise pre-dated the worldwide acknowledgement of the repression that ultimately results.

"That means if you elect Obama, he's going to overthrow our democracy just like the fascists did in Italy!"

No, that means if you vote for a candidate that favors the minimum wage (state control of wages), nationalization of industry (i.e. healthcare, particularly on the fascist model where it is run by government but the illusion of private control is maintained), ever greater social insurance and government mandated power to organized labor, you are supporting exactly the same policies that are the bedrock of fascism.

"Get out the tin foil hats..."

We might have, but you used up all the tin foil making your own.

BRILLIANT COLUMN
Accurate. Concise and to the point.
To paraphrase TruLib: If they look like Fascists and march like Fascists and speak the same ideas of Fascists; they're Fascists.
Much like the jealous, class division drivel you have been hearing from the left since FDR.

Individualism v Statism
is how to view Fascism. A lot of petty bickering occurs between Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals when the real dividing line is between individualism versus statism, between limited government and big government. This division cuts right across other lines.

Individualism is what started the conservative intellectual movement, back in the 30s, with great thinkers like Mises and Hayek. They stood for individual liberty where the only just purpose of government is protection of the liberty, against the rise of socialism, the rise of fascism, the rise of communism--all forms of statism.

"The Fascists were completely against individualism in general and especially against individualism in a free market economy."

Stalin's lie still going strong
It was Stalin that decided to label fascism as a right wing ideology and instructed the Comintern to spread this lie. Generations of liberal fellow travellers and useful idiots have continued to parrot it ever since. How the big government liberals who brought us slavery, Jim Crow and fought hard against equal rights can call conservatives fascists, when this means racists and statists I don't know, but this delusion is now hard wired into their psyches. How on earth would they be able to stifle thought which dissents from the liberal orthodoxy without being able to shout fascist at those oppose them but who are anything but fascists?

Laborlawyer
Reading your post, you sound like you hate capitalism and the free market economy. Would you let me buy you a one way ticket to Venezuela?

Same question
I will repeat a question I posed in Emett Tyrell's column: Why is it that the modern Left has come to support tyrants so much over the last century or so. Fascists (without the racist component of Naziism), Communists and Islamists have all enjoyed the support of those on the Left at one time or another. Why is the Left so against individualism, free market, and traditional morality? I've never understood that. (Though, it does explain why they hate America, because America, at its root, supports all three of those ideas. Individualism is the hallmark of America. The free market is the only thing that works well here, and it has made us the richest, most economically powerful country in the world in only 232 years (actually much less, we were that way a long time ago). And this country, despite what anyone in the ACLU will have you believe, was based on Christian traditions of morality, hence the freedom we were given.)

Who's Afraid...
of the truth? Republicans, and conservatives, want individual citizens to have more power.

Liberals, and socialists (but I repeat myself), want the government to have more power.

Why don't you just admit that, laborlawyer, and embrace the title socialist proudly? True believers in powerful government shouldn't be afraid to defend their beliefs.

I certainly have no problem defending freedom and liberty. And the fact that I am more than willing to pay my own doctor bills, mortgage, retirement plan, etc.

I want the government envisioned and created by our nation's brilliant founders - merchants, farmers, and entrepreneurs that they were. Before all the demagouging career politicians (many of them lawyers) got their boots on citizen's throats.


Happy Jake
They are unhappy people. They dislike themselves and they dislike America. Maybe that is why 'Change' is so important to them. They perhaps think this change will make them happy. For some reason they think the government can create happiness.

Liberallawyer:
What is it about contrast and comparison you don't understand? Dr. Sowell did not say ALL LIBERALS are fascists he merely compared and contrasted the agendas of both and allowed the reader to reach their own conclusion. What part of this could possibly lead to the conclusion that Dr. Sowell was implying any degree of IMPORTANCE to the statements of George Bernard Shaw? The topic being addressed was the HISTORY of Fascism and Liberalism therefore the fact that Shaw made these statements is RELEVANT to the topic.

Where is the "John Birch Society paranoia?" You seem to be the one that is paranoid. As to those who "believe in the minimum wage and separation of church and state" being our criteria marking a liberal agenda you are right! We conservatives believe the government must be bound by the Constitution - can you show me where in the constitution government at any level is enjoined to establish a minimum wage? The term "separation of church and state" are also not found anywhere in the Constitution. Our First Amendment rights are intended on protecting against the establishment of "STATE Church" as was common in Europe at the time. The display of religious symbols and emblems are in NO WAY prohibited by this amendment yet the "liberal agenda" wants to make it so.

In the final analysis, the records clearly show that the historical agenda of liberals closely resembles that of fascism. That was Dr. Sowell's point. No where was he inducing either paranoia or panic.

Happy Jake
What makes the liberals want to support dictators is their fevered dream of bestriding the world screaming NO NO! and slapping things out of the hands of adults. That is, they have given up the idea of bringing us all in line by argument -- much as the mother trying to use Time Outs and Parental Effectiveness Training to get her preschooler to stop wrecking the house and screaming and rolling on the floor of the toy store -- and now have decided to pick up a big stick. If you will not do THE RIGHT THING (according to me) then I HAVE THE DUTY TO FORCE YOU TO DO IT.

That is why Marching Mommies worship dictators. They long to have the right by law to strip-search kids entering a lunchroom, lest a peanut enter therein.

Fascism requires a gun
Leftists dislike guns unless they are used to procure what THEY want or used by THEIR comrades.

Waco, Ruby Ridge, or Elian Gonzales ring a bell?

When they talk about some new program they are talking about money of course, your money. In the lunacy of leftists forcing you to work for and pay for something that doesn't benefit you is 'freedom'. Of course that must be the new word for fascism.


the biggest coup the left has made
has been the red/blue swap.


How the heck did we let the MSM redefine the left as anything BUT RED?


One other thing Proff Sewell should have pointed out about Mussolini, he was THE leader of the Italian COMMUNIST party and wrote and edited THE biggest COMMUNIST newspaper in Italy for something like 12 years and only turned to Fascism when he was threaten in his power by competition.

Fascism and Mussolini
Speaking of Mussolini and his brand of government, the people loved him and the way he did things for a time. Eventually, they realized exactly what a monster he was and he got his just rewards.

I hope that America never experiences that kind of chaos and violence, but if liberals continue to treat average Americans as children who must be monitored and told what they can do and say and think, eventually the "common men and women" of our country will tire of it and the streets will run red with liberal blood.

There is no denying that liberals loved Mussolini and his ideas. They should remember that after Mussolini was slaughtered, many people gathered around his body to spit on it.

''If by conservatism you mean...''
--
"...belief in free markets, limited government, and traditional morality, including religious influences...."

In matters of *POLITICAL* conservatism, Dr. Sowell, there is nothing of "belief" to be discussed.

Free markets work better - more efficiently, more responsively, more productively - than does dirigisme of any kind.

Government limited by law to certain duties and powers leaves the private citizenry in a more effective condition to find both personal satisfaction and material abundance.

The matter of "traditional morality," however - especially "religious influences" - is something that needs to be kept strictly divorced from government in its every regard.

First, because these essentially ineffable criteria *DESTROY* the concept of "limited government."

(How do you charter a government to carry out the absolutely ineffable Will of God?)

Second, because matters of conscience - individual religious belief - are too *IMPORTANT* to be entrusted to the kinds of people who seek and win positions of government power.

Say what you like - for good or ill - about professional politicians, career bureaucrats, and people who enjoy wearing uniforms, carrying weapons, and ramming laws and regulations down their neighbors' throats, these people are *NOT* necessarily either exemplars or inculcators of the Christian ethos.

You're making a mistake commonly made by Christian-spirited "social conservatives" who assume that because government has the *POWER* to criminalize what traditionalists view as "sinful" and to enforce - at gunpoint - "traditional morality" that it is appropriate or even safe for government to do so.

It is not.

--

FIRST THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY
gets nationalized. Then the oil companies. Then the auto industry - this where your global warming bulls@#t comes into play - and then come the banks.
That's just for starters.
Funny how " health care for everyone" sounds like " a chicken in every pot."
It's Deja Vu all over again.

Another history lesson
Liberals should also remember the fate of Marie Antoinette.

People will only tolerate Elites and their arrogance for so long.

Reality...
...has never stood in the way of cherished liberal dogma.

Since the free market, as conservatives advocate, is so clearly antithetical to state control of the economy, as fascists advocate, it is no surprise that this is lost on liberals, to whom facts mean so little.

Hillary may as well have been channelling Mussolini when she said she would "take the profits of oil companies" and spend them on more failed social programs.

Like with so many other words, liberals have managed to change the meaning of fascism to "anything liberals don't like."

Right and Left wing are not correct term
http://www.oicu2.com/afc/leftright.html

It is maddening how people call Hitler and Fascism "Right wing".
There are liberal left wingers.
But a better look at the political is to see it as a circular spectrum, not a simple left and right.

See the link above, it explains a simple circular political spectrum. This isn't the best explanation I've ever read, but it will do for now.

One historian once wrote that the only difference between Communists and Fascists was that the Communists shot all the business owners. The Fascists just shot the business owners that didn't do what they were told.
I would add that today our government don't shot the business owners they just tax and regulate the hell out of them and throw them in prison if they don't toe the line.
Shooting them might be more merciful.

Right and Left wing not correct terms
It is maddening how people call Hitler and Fascism "Right wing".
There are liberal left wingers.
But a better to look at the political is to see it as a circular spectrum, not a simple left and right.

Google circular political spectrum and see what you get.

One historian once wrote that the only difference between Communists and Fascists was that the Communists shot all the business owners. The Fascists just shot the business owners that didn't do what they were told.
I would add that today our government don't shot the business owners they just tax and regulate the hell out of them and throw them in prison if they don't toe the line. Shooting them might be more merciful.

boutte
I wish you would write more. I enjoy watching Ron Paul's supporters dig the grave for his political aspirations. It saves us energy.

Facists Drink Milk Too..!
"Their agenda included minimum wage laws, government restrictions on profit-making, progressive taxation of capital, and "rigidly secular schools"..."They just wanted the government to call the shots as to how businesses would be run".

Is Mr. Sowell stating that the above is facists ideology? That is like saying facists drink milk so all milk drinkers are facists!

I think contemporary American liberalism is being twisted and taken out of context to imply they are facists.

I can paint the same picture of Conservatives; After all, isn't a law banning same sex marriage facism, taking away individualism?

"If by conservatism you mean belief in free markets, limited government, and traditional morality, including religious influences, then these are all things that the Fascists opposed just as much as the left does today".

So in summation, according to Mr. Sowell, Anyone who does not agree with Conservatives are facists...




Reactionaries from left and right

Fascism is alive and growing in the US. Its true you can find the more obvious examples from the left, but the right has become fascist just as well. The Neo-Cons are fascist, plain and simple.

Sowell writes: "If by conservatism you mean belief in free markets, limited government, and traditional morality, including religious influences, then these are all things that the Fascists opposed just as much as the left does today."

The only conservative by this definition is Ron Paul, and look how the right treats him. He is laughed at, derided and ignored. The right, including Fox has been taken over by fascist who make big noise about the window dressing that distinguishes them from the left.

Don't hate Sowell.
Sowell has written another thinly veiled hate piece directed at liberals. Mission accomplished Sowell! As usual, I’m pretty sure all the demons will come out condemning liberals based on this smear piece he has offered. Only would pseudo intellectual ideologues like Sowell and Goldberg look for ways to associate 20th century fascism with liberalism. Any idiot can cherry pick some beliefs by one group or another and parallel it to another group with similar, but not universally similar beliefs. Sowell even admits that unlike liberals, 20th century fascist were racist and brutal killers, however he obviously feels the comparison of the two groups is still somewhat justified. What a loser.

I would also like to commend Sowell for denigrating the legendary African American scholar WEB Dubois by associating him with Nazis, Hitler and fascism in general. Only on Townhall would a vitriolic attack on the preeminent African scholar being acceptable. Maybe it’s just jealousy, since Dubois is widely known and respected amongst scholars of all circles and Sowell is not. As I stated previously, any idiot can cherry pick this or that and portray someone or something in a negative light, this is not serious scholarship, it is pure “demagoguery”.

Dr. Sowell
The word Brilliant at one time meant without flaws.However, today only God knows what it means.Mr.Goldberg's book is probably well written,but you did not preface it well.If,you an Economist,had simply said, that Mise believed;Communism,Socialism and Fascism to be the same.The same in that they are instruments of the Wealthy to control society.I would have been far more incline to read the book.Then there was Dr. Dubois,"The Talent Tenth".Dubois showed early on that he was Conflicted and to use him as a Beacon of all Liberalism is beyond the "PAIL".I have never met a Brilliant,Intelligent,Sexy,or Beautiful person in my WHOLE LIFE.WHY?We all have FLAWS.ALL...

My grandkid's history text....

"....beginning in 1939 and not ending until 1945, the Great IntraFascist War proved incredibly destructive....the American Fascist regime of Roosevelt waged war against its ideological twin, the fascist or Nazi regime of Hitler, along with the fascist regime of Mussolini. In turn, the German fascists waged war against the Soviet or Russian fascists

....later, the so-called "Cold War," fought for planetary hegemony, saw American Fascism and Soviet Fascism contending for support among underdeveloped countries...

...eventually American Fascism prevailed, and the American Fascist regime, in the hands of either the Fascist Democratic Party or the Fascist Republican Party, continues to be the most powerful remaining fascist state....

"American Fascism and its Enemies: A Short Introduction" (Chicago: Regnery, 2031)

Fascism is alive in both parties
The best way to recognize a fascist government is to remember the words of El Duce who is arguably the 'father of fascism', "Give the people the pretense of private ownership of property, while at the same time, regulating it to the point of total state control."

With this in mind, since the days of Woodrow Wilson, the first real American Fascist, we can see that the fascist practice of government regulation is hardly a separate and distinguishing characteristic between the two political parties of today. An honest person would admit that both major parties embrace this ideology with loving arms outstretched.

As to an earlier post:
" Our First Amendment rights are intended on protecting against the establishment of "STATE Church" as was common in Europe at the time. "

Actually, the first amendment prohibits the establishment of a NATIONAL religion similar to the Anglican Church of England wherein citizens were required to pay tax to support the church, as well as, requiring attendance at Sunday services.

The first amendment is not a prohibition against an individual state religion. History provides plenty of proof that in the early days of the republic many constitutions of the individuals states allowed for religious oaths (e.g. Trinitarian) and some even required 'membership' in certain denominations in order to hold public office. Whereas, the first amendment also prohibits any federal congress from legislating against the, "free exercise of religion," which is precisely what removing nativities, disallowing prayers at public ceremonies and prohibiting certain 'religious' songs, conveniently ignores.

I admit, the concept of state sovereignty was long ago lost at the end of the 'Civil-War' and put to eternal rest with the passage of the 17th amendment. (i.e.,Direct election of federal Senators as opposed to state government appointments.)

Parker
You are correct. The concept of state sovereignty, at least as you define it, ended with the Civil War. And that was a good thing. A concept which could be used to justify the practice of slaveery did not deserve to survive.

Stedes
"I think contemporary American liberalism is being twisted and taken out of context to imply they are facists."

Do liberals or do they not advocate minimum wage laws, government restrictions on profit-making, progressive taxation of capital, and rigidly secular schools? Do they not want the government to call the shots as to how businesses would be run? Hillary apparently sincerely believes that company profits belong to the government, to be dispensed as she sees fit, and she certainly has plenty of company in that belief.

It is the left that cavalierly flings around the word "fascist" to describe anyone that disagrees with them.

Sowell and Goldberg are not saying that all liberals are fascists, as has been so mindlessy claimed in these posts. They are only pointing out the obvious fact that the original fascists had much more in common with today's liberals than with conservatives, much as liberals would like to believe otherwise.




laborlawyer wears the tinfoil hat
First off, race is a mechanically separate concept from economics, while fascism is directly an economics concept.
Webster defines "fascism" as "private economic enterprise under centralized government control."
Another way of putting it is that fascism is a system whereby private interests control government and its monetary and taxing structures for their own personal financial benefit.
Thomas Jefferson said there are only two kinds of government: 1) you run your own life, or 2) somebody else runs it for you. Therefore, in reality, all the "isms" and "archies" are merely camouflage to keep the "little people" arguing among themselves about ideologies they know little about while the wannabe-clever elite steal their labor and produce. Basically that is more properly called "feudalism". In other words, fascism does not equal racism; fascism equals feudalism.
Feudalism is the better word because it is simpler and more accurate. Plus everybody who has ever read anything about medieval times knows what feudalism is, and does not want to be a serf.
"Separation of church and state" is a self-evident intellectual fraud. Theism and atheism are both "world views." If a = c, and b = c, then a = b, and "atheism", being a world view, equals "religion", which is also a world view. The stupidity of laborlawyer's blather can be humorously exposed by rewording the 1st Amendment to say: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of a particular world view . . . " (unless, of course, that world view happens to disagree with my autocracy-based statist world view, in which case we'll demonize your individual-freedom-based world view as "religion"!)
Take a long look in a mirror, laborlawyer, and you may see your are the one wearing a "tinfoil hat!" :-)

Heyoehkah
"Fascism is alive and growing in the US. Its true you can find the more obvious examples from the left, but the right has become fascist just as well. The Neo-Cons are fascist, plain and simple."

Sowell and Goldberg provide numerous concrete examples of how the original fascists and today's liberals are in complete agreement. You simply state "the Neo-Cons are fascist, plain and simple" as if just saying it somehow makes it true.

Anthony Thomas
Since WEB Dubois is respected by some many scholars, and Dr. Sowell is not, does that mean his(Dr. Sowell's) argument is not valid? I think in logic your argument is called an Ad Hominen argument, therefore YOUR argument is not valid.


Anthony T.
"any idiot can cherry pick this or that and portray someone or something in a negative light, this is not serious scholarship, it is pure 'demagoguery'."

When it comes to points of agreement with fascists, there's a bumper crop of cherries on the liberal side of the aisle.

Sorry, I forgot one definition
In my previous post I forgot to define "world view." "World view" = how you believe the universe around us actually functions. In that regard there are only two possible choices: 1) Intelligent Design (ID - "theism"), or 2) random conglomeration of molecules (RCOM - "atheism"). It is self-evident that both ID and RCOM are "world views", which is what makes the "if a = c and b = c, then a = b" equation self-evidently legitimate from a logical perspective.
I reject the "separation of church and state" fraud out of hand as being both a politics-based and an economics-based fraud to camouflage the facts regarding who is stealing labor from whom.
Since neither the theist nor the atheists can, as of yet, scientifically prove diddley squat to the other side, assuming, arguendo, that both ID and RCOM are fairy tales, per Pascal's Wager, it is entirely logical to me to choose the fairy tale with the happy ending without having some clown like laborlawyer trying to use some revisionist-history nonsense to fabricate a bogus "constitutional" argument as to why the atheist - nihilist-statist-socialist world view is supposedly somehow superior to the Founder's theist (actually "deist") individual-self-ownership-based world view.

Anthony Thomas
"Only on Townhall would a vitriolic attack on the preeminent African scholar being acceptable."

Whereas, cartoons portraying Condi Rice as a monkey are acceptable across all forms of the MSM.

Thomas ...
"Those who put a high value on words may recoil at … Fascism"

As you say the word Fascism has taken on the emotional meaning of abuse and oppression. But it’s true meaning stems from it’s Italian root for wheat sheaves. It is a clearly understood metaphor for “the primacy of the group over the individual”. We as a society have made that original clearly understood metaphorical meaning obsolete by heaping our emotional baggage on it so that now to use the word Fascism is politically incorrect hate speech.

For those who actually do “put a high value on words” it is very telling that we have jettisoned the word fascism and have no replacement for it, we have no word that means “the primacy of the group over the individual.” Those today who hold to fascist ideals can not be labeled without being accused of hate speech.

Liberal Fascism
Thank you Goldberg and Sowell. I have received either bewildered silence or hysterical rants when trying to make these points over the years.

The title, while making the book sound like an election year bottom-feeder, is actually pretty straight forward, although "Progressive Fascism" would have struck better at today's codespeak.

Fascism and the left
This is something many of us here at TH have been saying for a while. Fascism was an offshoot of Socialism and Communism back in the 30s. Even Hayek said this back during the contemperous days of WWII.

The misuse of the word “Fascism” started with those on the left because after they were branded as communists and socialists they wanted a retort in the same vein. They jumped on “Fascists” as a retort for people on the right and they were just ignorant of the principles by which the only Fascist government ever operated.

But then again, they are ignorant of nearly all things so there is no additional problem there.

The problem with words
The problem with words is that they can become a way to avoid thought. Imagine some of the popular radio hosts or opinion writers of today is they were not allowed to use the words liberal or conservative. Just those two little words. I could add about a dozen more, but if you did that and then had them debate about today's problems and candidates for 30 minutes imagine the fun. Who knows? After stammering and looking confused for the first 25 minutes some actual thought might occur.

Rivenburg
Hi Rivenburg.

You're completely correct with your question about the red/blue REVERSED colors the MSM did.

If they put the colors correctly, blue/red, everyone would understand immediately the implications.

They can't have that until it doesn't matter.

BOOne:
It must be tough being a liberal and having to constantly change the subject of things or deny the origin of the ideas of your own party. If you firmly believe that government should be setting wages, heavily regulating businesses and redistributing income, why not embrace what you believe & just say "we think we can do it better than the Fascist party did - here are the improvements to the idea". GREAT article Dr. Sowell. I wonder what would happen if they actually taught the study of governments as a required course in high school and college. Liberalism would be DEAD.

Article Saves Time
If Sowell accurately characterizes Goldberg's understanding of fascism, then I don't have to read the book since Goldberg obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. Look there, I have actually profited from something Sowell said!

wwsword
Another liberal takes the "I say it, therefore it is" approach to argumentation.

A good review
The essence of fascism is totalitarianism -- total control of society/life by government. This is certainly not the inclination of American conservatism which calls for minimal government doing only those things authorized by the Constitution.

Don't confuse conservative with Republican. The Republican Party is far from conservative and Bush's "Compassionate Conservatism" is as fascistic as the liberal/progressive Democrats. The main difference between Bush Republicanism and liberal/progressivism is that the progressives would also attempt government control of economic enterprise (socialist totalitarianism).

The "right wing" appellation of fascism was put on it by Lenin, indicating only that it was to the right of him.

The word fascist has lately been co-opted by liberals as an epithet meaning "we don't llke you." In such usage it has becoome meaningless, but fascism has a history and it is a history tied much more closely to the American progressive movement than to any other aspect of American politics.

Goldberg's book is well worth reading. Liberals/progressives will have to grit their teeth to get through it, but those who can do it will emerge with a better understanding of their political heritage.

Truth to liberals is an attack
It's hillarious how a Leftist like Anthony Thomas huffs and puffs calling Sowell names because he reported historical facts.

Dubois wrote the things that Sowell stated, and Sowell factually reported them. To low intellects like Anthony Thomas, that represents an attack.

It's like "Swiftboating." When you criticize a liberal/Leftist with facts, it is an attack. Dr. Sowell holds the mirror in front of these mental midgets and they can't handle what they see.


Rock Strongo
When have they taken ANY other approach?!?!

Doug
Pigs don't know that Pigs STINK!

A Better Review
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-kelly/jonah-goldberg-to -base-u_b_81828.html

Liberal Fascism is Jonah Goldberg's revenge on Gore Vidal for making William F. Buckley lose his temper.

Here:

"In 1968, in a televised debate on ABC news during the Chicago Democratic convention, Gore Vidal continually goaded William F. Buckley, eventually calling him a crypto Nazi. Vidal himself is an open homosexual, a pagan, a statist, and a conspiracy theorist. Buckley, a patriotic, free-market, anti-totalitarian gentlemen of impeccably good manners, could take it no more and responded: 'Now listen, you qu**r, stop calling me a crypto Nazi or I'll sock you in the goddam face and you'll stay plastered.'"

This is a pretty well-known incident. (I'm not sure why "open homosexual" is the first thing Goldberg lists in Vidal's bio, except as a synonym for "asking for it," but it's his book. I might have gone with, "author, playwright, screenwriter, veteran," but that's just me.) Most viewers remember the other guy, the impeccably well-mannered patriotic gentleman speed freak dilettante footnote, getting the worst of it, as he was the one screaming slurs and threatening to hit people.

I think Vidal compared it to watching a cuckoo clock bird pop out of Buckley's head.

Sorry, Post Holer
That isn't a review, it's just a rant.

The fascists were also...
...flag-waving, fear-mongering, hate-mongering imperialists. That makes them more like today's neocons, doesn't it?

oneeye
"Don't confuse conservative with Republican."

Though oneeye stated this in this thread, this is something that gets said many times at Townhall. I have to add don't confuse liberal with Democrat. The Democrats in Congress are far from liberal, so it may well be that they have some policies that are comparable to fascist policies. But liberalism is on the opposite end of the spectrum from fascism, so Goldberg's title is simply a shallow attempt at name calling. In fact, throughout the book, this article, and this thread the political science idea of fascism is conflated with the epithet fascism.

Doc W
I'm not sure what you think "neocons" means. It's another one of those meaningless epithets.

But the answer to your question, I think, is no.

An evil force
It's obvious that liberals are the fascists, that they are the hate-filled suppressors of freedom and free speech. Wrapping themselves luxuriously in a cloak of progressivism, tolerance and "Fairness Doctrines", everything about them is regressive, intolerant and unfair. Liberalism is a mental disorder, a lie, a blasphemy and an evil force. Liberals/progressives/socialists are first cousins of extremists, terrorists and mass murderers and are undermining this country.

Free Ramos and Compean
Global warming is sphere nonsense


Bouette: Really?
Really? Speaking as a fellow Ron Paul-supporter (I voted for Dr Paul in my state’s Republican Primary) kindly put down your copy of the "Elders of Zion" and reacquaint yourself w/ reality.

Anthony
"any idiot can cherry pick this or that and portray someone or something in a negative light, this is not serious scholarship, it is pure 'demagoguery'."

A point you manage to prove on a near daily basis.

Boutte: Really?
Really? Speaking as a fellow Ron Paul-supporter (I voted for Dr Paul in my state’s Republican Primary) kindly put down your copy of the "Elders of Zion" and reacquaint yourself w/ reality.

CORRECTION
Speaking as a fellow Ron Paul-supporter (I voted for Dr Paul in my state’s Republican Primary) kindly put down your copy of the "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and reacquaint yourself w/ reality.

CORRECTION
Speaking as a fellow Ron Paul-supporter (I voted for Dr Paul in my state’s Republican Primary) kindly put down your copy of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and reacquaint yourself w/ reality.

Standtall
Don't be shy.
Tell us what you really think.

Words mean things DUH!

***************************************
Obviously, Boone has a problem with words, but you know that old Shakespeare line, "A rose is a rose by any other name.." Liberalism and conservatism have actual meanings. I know you liberals hate to face up to it and so you use other nice fuzzy-warm names like "progressive" and "compassionate", but you're still liberals, and conservatives are still conservatives. It is interesting that liberals call us "Neo-Cons" and "Fascists" (The 'Neo', of course, refering to the Neo-Nazis) when these names actually reflect their very own beliefs and not the conservative agenda at all.

I mourn for our country today because the level of the voting public's ignorance is reflected in the caliber of people who are representing us in the House and Senate. If this is the so-called cream of the crop, we seem to have left the crops in the field and sent the weeds up to DC.
People who don't know the difference between a liberal and a conservative, who don't know have a clue of the function of the different branches of government, and when you bring up the word "profit margins" they look at you like you are speaking in tongues. Some talking head tells them that Exxon makes an "obscene profit" of 300 billion dollars and the thought that this figure does not represent the profit margin of the company. For crying out loud, Avon makes more profit than Exxon when you look at the real numbers. You can't argue this with a liberal because they only see the 300 billion dollars. They don't see the cost of earning that much money. If I make $10.00 am am not taxed and the other fellow makes $100.00 and is taxed 90%, we bring home $10.00. That's what liberalism is all about folks. Our clueless government-school-educated society is doomed to live their lives in ignorance and poverty if they keep sending these dunces up to DC.

pv
"It's hillarious how a Leftist like Anthony Thomas huffs and puffs calling Sowell names because he reported historical facts.

Dubois wrote the things that Sowell stated, and Sowell factually reported them. To low intellects like Anthony Thomas, that represents an attack."

It’s hilarious how foreign and unimportant intellectual honesty is to people like you. Quoting a few lines from Dubois does not provide a full, fair or even accurate view of Dubois on this subject matter. As I stated earlier, any idiot can cherry pick here and there to portray those one hates in a negative and unforgiving light. Once again Sowell has shown his intellectual ineptness and intellectual dishonesty with this column. Enjoy the propaganda my friend.

Rock Strongo
Anthony said:
any idiot can cherry pick this or that and portray someone or something in a negative light, this is not serious scholarship, it is pure '”demagoguery”'

Rock Strongo said:
“A point you manage to prove on a near daily basis.”

???????????? don’t get it.

My father would be horrified
I'm glad my father didn't live to see such nonsense as Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism." He fought in, and was permanently disabled by wounds suffered in, World War II. He didn't know he was fighting for the American fascist FDR against the German fascist Hitler. He thought he fought to protect American freedom and rid the world of a what he would have called a real s.o.b. Of course, he wasn't some conservative intellectual like Goldberg, so he wouldn't have been able to parse differences between "liberal fascism" and "fascist fascism." I'm impressed at such abilities among today's conservatives.

Master Thomas: Really?
Really? So any single person that disagrees w/ your self-serving form of Marxist “group-identity” politics and its associated institutionalized system of racial privileges in perpetuity is guilty of writing a “Hate piece”? If you had read the book like me you would have realized that on nearly every page Mr. Goldberg takes great pains to qualify his book on the history of Fascism in America by stating that he does NOT COMPARE today’s Progressives (who characterize themselves as being LIBERAL in an intellectually disingenuous fashion) w/ the NAZI’s of the past. IT’s just that their have been different “flavors” of Facsism- NAZI-ism being one of them. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and said book was written for the few intellectually-honest progressives who were interested the history of the progressive movement.

WRT WEB Dubois, drop your fawning tribute to Dr. Dubois’ “cult of personality” and return to reality without your Marxist prism. WEB Dubois, being a Marxist, believed in the creation a black intellectual vanguard representing the interests of the lumpen proletariat. This sounds remarkably similar to Fabian socialist H.G. Wells’ vision of a “Global Brain” made up a vanguard of educated elites who would dispense w/ messy representative democracy by applying managerial and scientific processes in the development of government policies. Elites who knew what was best for the proletariat better than the proletariat themselves, e.g. DNC “Super Delegates” (i.e., Democrat politicians and ideological leaders) who have functioned as “Fire wall” against the fundamental stupidity of the Democrat Voter base.

Master Thomas: Really?
Really? So any single person that disagrees w/ your self-serving form of Marxist “group-identity” politics and its associated institutionalized system of racial privileges in perpetuity is guilty of writing a “Hate piece”? If you had read the book like me you would have realized that on nearly every page Mr. Goldberg takes great pains to qualify his book on the history of Fascism in America by stating that he does NOT COMPARE today’s Progressives (who characterize themselves as being LIBERAL in an intellectually disingenuous fashion) w/ the NAZI’s of the past. IT’s just that their have been different “flavors” of Fascism- NAZI-ism being one of them. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and said book was written for the few intellectually-honest progressives who were interested the history of the progressive movement.

WRT WEB Dubois, drop your fawning tribute to Dr. Dubois’ “cult of personality” and return to reality without your Marxist prism. WEB Dubois, being a Marxist, believed in the creation a black intellectual vanguard representing the interests of the lumpen proletariat. This sounds remarkably similar to Fabian socialist H.G. Wells’ vision of a “Global Brain” made up a vanguard of educated elites who would dispense w/ messy representative democracy by applying managerial and scientific processes in the development of government policies. Elites who knew what was best for the proletariat better than the proletariat themselves, e.g. DNC “Super Delegates” (i.e., Democrat politicians and ideological leaders) who have functioned as “Fire wall” against the fundamental stupidity of the Democrat Voter base.

Gestell: I'm glad
“I'm glad my father didn't live to see such nonsense as Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism." He fought in, and was permanently disabled by wounds suffered in, World War II. He didn't know he was fighting for the American fascist FDR against the German fascist Hitler.”

Speaking as a reserve military officer, your father’s service is greatly appreciated by those of us who recognize the sacrifices of “America’s Greatest Generation.” However, apparently history didn’t exist before Chomsky & Freidan. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and said book was written for the few intellectually-honest progressives who were interested the history of the progressive movement. You don’t happen to be one of them.

WRT the “Secular Saint”, FDR, do you mean, (1) FDR's Fascist “National Recovery Act” (NRA)? When the Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional- FDR attempted to increase the size of the Supreme Court via a Constitutional Amended, so he could insert likeminded Socialists that would suddenly give him the majority he needed. Unfortunately, the Democrat congress wouldn't allow him such power. Or (2) Do you mean the unconstitutional matter of FDR's interment of "Japanese Americans" in concentration camps during WWII?

I’m glad that your father didn’t live long enough to be subjected to your histrionics and intellectual cowardice.

Leonard Peikoff
the Objectivist philosopher, twenty-five years ago, wrote in his book "The Ominous Parallels", all about the philosophical and political origins of fascism and totalitarianism in Nazi Germany. He concluded that the USA was more likely headed for a Nazi style fascism than a Communist style fascism, as it slowly drifted away from it's philosophical base in the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment.

He certainly didn't spare Conservatives from scathing criticism either, as the title of Goldberg's book seems to imply. If fascism is a form of irrationality, if fascism is a denial of indiviualism and the sovereign indiviual, if fascism affirms the supremacy of the collective over the indiviual, then certainly neither Liberals nor Conservatives as we define the terms today are immune from this irrationality. The two political camps according to Peikoff long ago accepted the premise of fascism and are simply fighting over the details as to how to implement it.

Leonard Peikoff
the Objectivist philosopher, twenty-five years ago, wrote in his book "The Ominous Parallels", all about the philosophical and political origins of fascism and totalitarianism in Nazi Germany and the parallels with the USA. He concluded that the USA was more likely headed for a Nazi style fascism than a Communist style fascism, as it slowly drifted away from it's philosophical base in the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment.

He certainly didn't spare Conservatives from scathing criticism either, as the title of Goldberg's book seems to imply. If fascism is a form of irrationality, if fascism is a denial of indiviualism and the sovereign indiviual, if fascism affirms the supremacy of the collective over the indiviual, then certainly neither Liberals nor Conservatives as we define the terms today are immune from this irrationality. The two political camps according to Peikoff long ago accepted the premise of fascism and are simply fighting over the details as to how to implement it.

Read the Book
Unfortunately, those who most desperately need to read the book (those of the left) will not even read Dr. Sowell's article. Thus, they will continue on with their desperate efforts to destroy this nation. If a democrat wins the '08 election, with the very real possibility of replacing two members of the Supreme Court, those efforts will be enhanced.

MikeH
"But liberalism is on the opposite end of the spectrum from fascism, so Goldberg's title is simply a shallow attempt at name calling."

I haven't read Goldberg's book, but I've read others like it, and as I understand it, he's talking about the history of liberal attitudes toward fascism and saying that they were more favorable prior to WWII.

Moreover, fascism was started, not by an industrialist drifting further and further to the right, but by a former leftist. Plus, the communists made a formal pact with the fascists in 1939, so the fascists couldn't have been too much beyond the pale. Things changed, though, after WWII.

Today, we can see liberal drift in attitudes in another area. When I was young, being an anti-Semite was completely out of bounds for any liberal, but today things are somewhat different. People on the right condemn anti-Semitism in Arab countries (such as selling Mein Kampf and comparing Jews to monkeys), but liberals and leftists seem not to be bothered by it. They are much closer to Hitler than they used to be.

Anthony Thomas
writes, "I would also like to commend Sowell for denigrating the legendary African American scholar WEB Dubois by associating him with Nazis, Hitler and fascism in general. "

Did Sowell twist his arm and force him to make those statements? Sowell just presented facts. You are doing the denigrating. It is quite amazing how you can take someone's simple reciting of someone else's statements and call it denigrating simply because history proved what an idiot he was in that regard. It doesn't mean he was a bad man just misguided like you. You could learn from Dubois's mistake or, more likely, not.

Liberals aren't very critical thinkers
Fascism is first and foremost a political and economics system. Leftist liberals aren't bright enough to understand this and choose to only use the term as an epithet.

The arising political system of the late 1990's, The Third Way (which we don't hear much of recently) was championed by people from Left and Right, notably Newt Gingrich. It's central command tendencies always smacked of fascism to me.

Communism, by and large, collapsed because of its refusal to allow markets to take even small amounts of authority away from central control.

I think that Chinese Communism is no longer communism at all but the modern State version of fascism. They tolerate individual markets as a pragmatic understanding that they work, but still wield the actual control. Hence the executions of CEOs when things don't go well.

Meaningless epithet?
Neoncoservatives, aka neocons--people like Bush, Cheney, or say Fred Barnes, who wrote some time back that it was ok for conservatives to be in favor of big government. I'm talking about people who refer to themselves as conservatives but repudiate the traditional conservative stance against foreign interventionism. I'm talking about the people who derailed the Republican Revolution of 1994 and set the party on a course of war, big government programs, and bankruptcy. "Neocon"--a very meaningful epithet.

By the way--what I wrote earlier wasn't really a question. It was a rhetorical question, wasn't it?

Gestell
writes, " He didn't know he was fighting for the American fascist FDR against the German fascist Hitler. He thought he fought to protect American freedom and rid the world of a what he would have called a real s.o.b"

He did fight to protect America from a real s.o.b. The point Sowell is making here, if you could open your mind just a bit, is that liberals here were praising him right up until he started killing everybody. The liberal statist mindset of today is no different than the same old Marxist class warfare concepts used around the world to gain and keep power whether they call themselves fascist, socialist, communist, or anything else. There are only two sides to the ideological divide. Freedom or not. Individual choice or not.

Minor differences such as controlling business vs state ownership are irrelevant except to academics who like precise labels for everything. Read history, Mussolini was a communist before he started a new religion called fascism that retained all the worst parts of the old with a different twist.

There are those who wish to impose order on the world like you Gestell and those who value liberty like me. You kind will support all types of evil for what you think will be the greater good and to have order in the world. Capitalism and liberty are messy. You just don't know what someone else might choose to do and that bothers you.

PV
I am glad I am not the only one who noticed that China is now a fascist state. Fascism, as an economic model, actually is capable of production and growth, as we saw in post-Weimar Germany. It is an evil, slavery based system, but it did put a stop to hyper-infaltion and restore the German economy.

It Is Predictable
Those who mercilessly torture logic in order to engage in twisted, upside-down thinking will do ANYTHING to obfuscate this particular issue. Their favorite, first used cheap debate trick is ad hominem attack. Thus they take pains to denigrate both Sowell and Goldberg.

It's pitiful, really.

F.A. Hayek "The Road to Serfdom"
Haven't read Mr. Goldberg's book yet, but its arguments and conclusions sound very much like the arguments and conclusions of "The Road to Serfdom" written in 1944.

State control of the levers of the economy leads inexorably to state control of all aspects of life and the destruction of individual freedom. Without fail.

This stuff was old at the outset of WW2. That we think it is new or outre is the result of constant obfuscation by the media and the schools.

That roughly half of the country thinks it is a good idea boggles the mind.

Consider This

You are sharing a room with someone who wants to enslave you and is presistently vicious in his efforts to do so. Do you compromise with him out of respect for his being human? Or do you fight him?

I consider liberals (facists) to be philosophical bedfellows of Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Mao, Pol Pot and many other similar murderous despots. They present a palpable physical danger to my freedom and they must be DEFEATED. They must be fought to the death, if necessary, else it will be the death of Liberty.

Questions for liberals
I was listening to Obama speak the other night and he mentioned the profits for last year for Exxon/Mobil. The crowd booed. It brought up some questions that I'm sure my conservative friends would like answered:

1. Which American businesses are allowed to make a profit?
2. What is the maximum amount of profit they are allowed to make?
3. Is the answer to question 2 conditional on what type of business they are?
4. Is the answer to question 1 and 2 conditional on which party the business tends to support?
5. Who in the heck boos an American company for being successful?

By the way - the fact that you are even thinking about answers to the first four questions shows that you are a fascist!

imho
Religious fascism is just as detrimental to the health of this country as economic fascism. It is a sad state when seemingly religious people want to impose their will on social issues and leave economic issues free. The left's perception of republicans. The democrats, by and large, want freedom on social issues and fascism on economic ones. With a representative republic and everyone wanting state control for certain issues, what do we get?

It is high time the social liberals (the true liberals in the good old definition of the word) team up with economic conservatives in the fight for freedom against those in both parties that pander to the public's appetite for control over their misguided brethren.

Gestell and the topic in general, Part I
I understand your point, but that is the very purpose for Goldberg writing this book. Though it is fundamentally flawed when it offers an oppositional position to fascism, the historical case Goldberg makes in tracing the severe similarities and origins of thought between what is commonly called fascism and what is commonly called liberalism, today, is outstanding.

Unfortunately, the one step that Goldberg doesn't (and, given the position he *does* take, can't) take is that one, additional, step back - to see the larger picture. Both fascism and socialism found their start in Marx. But even he had earlier roots. That is, the rise of egocentric worldviews. As Tage Lindbom, key architect of the Swedish socialist system, wrote in 1991, either God rules or man does ("The Myth of Democracy"). Father Seraphim Rose, nearly 30 years earlier, called the latter "the revolution" ("Nihilism: The Root of the Modern Revolution"). Both men understood that there is no in between, there is no compromise.

Thus, Rousseau worked hard to eliminate God from politics and yet keep a sense of the "divine" in the political system. Even he, implicitly, understood that any political system NECESSARILY devolves into a totalitarian system if there are not absolutes, if there is no God (or an appropriate substitute). Of course, an amorphous "force" called "the will of the people" or even a "social contract," or whatever name one wants to use to give a transcendent character to a political system and yet avoid having to appeal to God, is, in the end, worthless. Just as it was with the attempt in the former Soviet Union - the "working class" was a nothing concept that, as history proves, fell apart before it even started.


Gestell and the topic in general, Pt. II
In the end, then, all that is left is man. This is true even of our so-called republic, which is simply an attempt to have a "compromise with God," to paraphrase Father Seraphim Rose. It must, inevitably, collapse in to the stronger forms of "the revolution," which is exactly what is happening in our country today as the government takes ever-increasing control over our lives through the nanny-state effect, as Goldberg ably points out. We can also see this effect in the UK where the constraints of a "free" universal health care have prompted the authorities to promote "self-diagnosing and treatment" as well as restrictions on who can get access to health care (though all pay) based on lifestyle choices.

Whenever man replaces God, you get things like Leninism, wherein the ignorant masses had to be "lead" into the revolution. Here, today, we have Hillary Clinton telling us that the government is just going to have to spend more of our money for us, because we don't know better. If man is the ultimate authority, whoever gets the power gets to determine for the others what's best for them, "for their own good." "Experts" and "scientists" and "professors" who know better than we do what is best "for the people" and "society." We get "The Great Society" and the calls for "a new way" or "change." That is, ever-creating a "new man" and a "new way" to make a "heaven on earth," to take the title from Joshua Muravchik's book.

Just because we don't have jackboots kicking down doors as they did in Nazi Germany doesn't mean that it isn't fascism. Indeed, the last time I remember jackboots kicking down doors to enforce a political position was when the Clintons went after Waco, Ruby Ridge and, of course, the child Elian Gonzalez.

the sinner,

Charles

Hitchhiker

You are on to something that I have been saying for years. The so-called religious "right" who want to take away my Playboy and close the taverns on Sundays - even though they tend to be conservative on most issues - still want to take away my freedom. And that makes them leftists.

If America's liberals could merely eschew communism/socialism/facism/statism, we would be allies.

Good Point.

Anthony Thomas - You are Mistaken
"Sowell has written another thinly veiled hate piece directed at liberals."

No no. This statement is incorrect. It should read:

Sowell has written another well-deserved criticism of liberals and their misguided beliefs.



"Only would pseudo intellectual ideologues like Sowell and Goldberg look for ways to associate 20th century fascism with liberalism."

Hey, if the shoe fits, wear it.




I just love how liberals like to rewrite history and redefine the language whenever it suits them. Yah yah, "I'm 100% for Free Markets that WE CONTROL."

Uh huh. Right.

Left ideology= Fascist
This is not a difficult one to figure out. Left policy, and the legislation produced according to that policy, has done nothing for America, as a whole. The only people who have profited from it are those who secure power according to it, and the factions of it. I ask again, from all these lib wits posting here, tell me of one program that has factually accomplished what it was designed for. You cannot, because none of the lefts factious legislation, along with the bureaucracy created, has ever solved difficulties in our society. They continue to grow, and expand, according to the absolute control of left ideology. Fascism!

Hitler was no righty

We have spent a lot of time visiting with my Sweeties German Cousins, and believe it, they are always amazed, and amused, when they hear that any Lefty thinks that Hitler was for a moment, a right ringer.

Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., a JFK advisor, has written:

The Fascists, for example, were not conservative in any very meaningful sense. … … In certain basic respects - a totalitarian state structure, a single party, a leader, a secret police, a hatred of political, cultural and intellectual freedom - fascism and communism are clearly more like each other than they are like anything in between.

Charles the Hammer
well said.

Whichever founding father said that this form of government would only work for a Godly people was correct.

I sympathize with those pulling their hair out wondering how half the country can vote for socialism. I used to be one. It wasn't until I was able to rationalize the apparent contradiction between science and religion in my mind that I was able to see the bigger picture and the possible explanations for many things.

I came to the conclusion that science is simply learning the complexity of God's design. He does have a plan and there is an adversary. The adversary explains how people can be deceived to plot their own demise with the best intentions.

It certainly does not help figure out how to convince those people to stop doing it but, it brings peace knowing that all this is temporary and regardless of what happens here, it is not the end.

We are already learning how to create life through genetics. We do not yet possess even a fraction of the wisdom necessary to wield such power, however.

THE TRUTH
I have read many post today, that give reference to their money being given AWAY,by Liberals.Well as a Conservative,I am sorry to inform you,that thanks in large part to US,there is no MONEY LEFT!!!Please forward all other complaints to the FUTURE...

Anthony Thomas
It would be nice if for once in your life you actually demonstrated intellectual honesty, not to mention made at least an attempt at logic. Simply put, the logical end result of liberalism, i.e. socialism, i.e. government control of any field, is fascism and/or communism. The more a society becomes liberal (modern American liberalism, not classical liberalism by the dictionary sense of the term), the closer that same society approaches totalitarianism. In other words, the antithesis of freedom and individuality. You seem to be an intelligent fellow but graphically prove with every post that intelligence in no way equates to smarts, much less wisdom.

Charles The Hammer

Good points, though I disagree that either man rules or God does. (Though I quibble here.)A broader, longer discussion would probably enlighten me on this.

Another small quibble. Ruby Ridge occured under the Bush administration, though it certainly was a prime example of jack-booted thugery.

I know many religious people who DO believe in the concept of hating the sin and loving the sinner. It's those vegetarians who want to push the steak off of MY plate that I have a problem with.

Religious people would be well served to recall that God, in His infinite wisdom, neglected to put a huge fence around the tree in the garden. By such neglect, He gave our most precious freedom - the freedom to FAIL. The freedom to fail IS the freedom to succeed.

since when
has the U S not been fascist? Spot on but ancient history, not current events. What were Nixon's wage & price controls if not exercises in fascism? How about agricultural production quotas? The list is both endless and goes back at least to FDR.
Glad to have this work out there for public consumption. Might get a few heads out of the sand.

SORRY, THUNDER THUDD
Ruby Ridge was in August, 92. Janet Reno was the honcho in charge of that one, too.

Hitchhiker
“Sowell just presented facts. You are doing the denigrating. It is quite amazing how you can take someone's simple reciting of someone else's statements and call it denigrating simply because history proved what an idiot he was in that regard”

Not surprisingly, you obviously know nothing about Web Dubois or his works. Most of his work had nothing to do with the Nazis, Hitler or fascism. The simple fact that you would call the first African American to obtain a PHD (during Jim Crow) from Harvard an “idiot”, reveals your ignorance and stupidity quite clearly. Second, Sowell is cherry picking statements made by Dubois in order to align the great African American scholar with Nazis and fascist. For Sowell to be an African American (at least genetically), and smear Dubois in this way is classless and disrespectful to African Americans and our history.


As I said earlier, if statements aren’t presented in the context that they were said, then the statements are being taken out of context, and can be disingenuously used to paint individuals in a manor that is negative or unfavorable. Sowell has clearly found enough reasons (or $$$$$) to insult the very individuals that paved the way for not just his, but my success and others. He’s a loser for doing this. Enjoy the propaganda.

Hitchhiker and ThunderThudd
Hitchhiker - was it Adams? I think so, though I can't be sure. Of course, even that quote, itself, calls many a discussion to the fore that I don't think it would be proper to discuss here.

ThunderThudd -

First and foremost, thank you for the correction! Second, I would greatly encourage you to read Tage Lindbom's "The Myth of Democracy." Though I have some small (though extremely important) differences with his overall thesis, he is largely, to my mind, correct. I would also encourage you to do an internet search of Father Seraphim Rose and "Nihilism." You can find this short (only about 50 pages) chapter of what was to be a longer book online for free. The depth of his analysis is staggering, especially given the fact that it was written well ahead of its time. That is, in regards to the general populace beginning to fully understand the full scope of humanism in human history.

the sinner,

Charles

Liberals vs. Conservatives
What the real battle in this country is all about is the battle for the hearts and minds of it's citizens. Facist liberal's think the American people can't think for themselves, thus they need someone to watch over them, and pay for their mistakes, giving government aid (entitlements) for anyone and everyone that will keep them in power. Concervatives, for the most part, believe people can handle their own problems if given the freedom and opportunity to pursue them.

Facist liberals want to control the economy by regulation and taxes. They promise free-enterprise, but it has multiple strings attached. Conservatives believe that the economy can regulate itself, and it should only pay enough taxes to support the freedom and free-trade it needs to survive in the global economy.

Lastly, God is a detractor for the Liberals because His rule is supreme to their own, and they can't have someone dictating what is moral or immoral to their cause. Conservatives (non-atheistic) believe that God's rule is what sets them free. Without values, society falls into anarchy, and freedom falls to the "kill or be killed" laws of the jungle.

If you've read this far I hope that you agree with what I've said. Thomas Sowell has made the points as clear as can be made.

Anthony Thomas
You are quite incorrect. Please actually read Goldberg's book, including, specifically, the endnotes regarding the DuBois material. The man was not a saint, but that also does not mean that he did not accomplish great things. However, it may mean that you, yourself, might have to re-evaluate his true legacy.

the sinner,

Charles

SORRY, THUNDER THUDD
You are right. I stand corrected.

para_dimz
writes, "The list is both endless and goes back at least to FDR."

That is when it started. Prior to WWII, the Soviet revolution was highly praised by FDR types in this country. Stalin was praised by many here before he committed more murders than Hitler ever dreamed of. The wave of the future. Equality for all. The intelligentsia was enamored with the idea of socialistic bliss. Goldberg's book no doubt includes much of this history. I already read about it from the same source he probably used. I cannot remember the guy's name, an Israeli academic.

The sad part is they still clamor for it after about 100 years of evidence from virtually every country in the world that it cannot work and is only a tool for gaining power by tryants.

Anthony Thomas
writes, "Not surprisingly, you obviously know nothing about Web Dubois or his works. Most of his work had nothing to do with the Nazis, Hitler or fascism"

And yet, according to you, his statements regarding them are accurate? I guess if you still support the ideals espoused by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, then you certainly wouldn't want the first black Phd maligned for supporting them.

It's funny
Neither Dr. Sowell's comments or the concepts contained in Goldberg's book are either new or even controversial. As I said initially, the reality that fascism was then, is now and has always been a variant of socialism has been well known since before the war began.

The liberal attacks upon this column amount to nothing more than a dislike of the facts. That Dr. Sowell mentioned W.E.B. DuBois was hardly the thrist of the article - and it didn't mention his favorable views of Imperialist Japan, his praise of Joe Stalin or his views on eugenics (which were so well received by the Nazis). That he promoted racial equality is a wonderful thing. That he also promoted socialism in its mostr virulent forms (communism and fascism) is nothing more than a factual assertion.

There is really only one solution for liberals who are appalled that the things that they support can be demonstrated to be exactly the same things ostensibly supported by the fascists and the communists...

...choose more rational things to support.

Fletch
Liberals don't know what is rational. They support whatever brings them power.

To be a liberal is to stand on your head and tell the rest of the world it's upside down.

They spend their lives trying to use the force of government to impose their views on any who resist. They are very dangerous because they always want to establish a society totally ordered to their worldview. Dissent cannot be tolerated in this worldview - all must obey.

Despite all this, libs like Anthony Thomas are always indignantly touting their self-assumed moral superiority to the rest of us.

Charles The Hammer & F1etch

Charles, thanks for the citations. I'll check them out for sure.

Fletch - well said. It was NOT Sowell's intention to denigrate DuBois, but rather to add another small piece of evidence of liberal adoration of facism. If the FACT that DuBois loved Nazism offends "liberals," then I suggest, as you do, that they cultivate a practice of ratiocination. (This is very hard for them, but with perseverence it CAN be done.)

Standtall, thunderthud
If it was in August of 92, Bush 41 was Prez. Clinton/Reno were not there until 93.

factual assertion.
__So correct F1etch. It's the theoretic, speculative, embrace of the left, used to promote ideas of change, without any proven substance. They certainly will cry, from the highest peaks, their empassioned cries for the needy, the elderly, the infirmed. We have heard it for years, but they can give us nothing to show proven results. The only proven result is their creation of the largest employer in America, along with its dependents. A total industry, and seperate economy, completely free to grow, and prosper, with the secured powers of the left. All of which can only exist, and grow, has they speculate on the numbers. Numbers of those in need, the infirmed, the elderly.

Expound Truth
I see the Left actually embracing failure as reason to do more. 'Our results would be positive if', and the 'if' is always more money, more laws, more control being given to them to achieve the noble ends they desire. What they have tried not working is never evidence that what they want to do won't work.

Line Of Reasoning
I notice all the threads seem to contend on facts or lack of them from one side or the other. What gets taken out of context or not. The arguments can most clearly be separated by ones supported by facts and reason and those supported by emotion and passion. I simply see the fascist/socialist/communistic world views being expounded as somehow reasonable, caring and human.

Yet Dr. Sowell is being attacked as a traitor to his race, ignorant, and an economist speaking on matters he doesn't know. Their attacks on him only highlight the amount of fervor with which they attack anyone who disagrees with them. This is not "freedom." Claiming freedom while trying to suppress opposing views is a lesson in reasoned hypocrisy. Of all the books mentioned here I would suggest a rereading of "1984." Big government in order to form a more perfect union? Ever notice how it's mention has disappeared from the MSM?

You Should See The Left In TOTAL POWER

Like they are in nearby Portland, Oregon.

1. When the animil rights whackos set about to protest Schumacher Furs (in business for 111 years,) they were closely watched by the Portland Police - who were charged with KEEPING THEM SAFE!!! The police looked the other way when many illegal acts were committed by these ALFies. Schumachers is now out of business, no thanks to mayor moonbeam, the rainbow city council and the uber-liberal Portland Police.

2. Portland has used road maintenance money for 15 to 20 years now to help pay for light rail. Now that the roads have deteriorated all over the city, they plan a car-tax to raise money for road maintenance. You pay more for an SUV and way less for a hybrid.

3. Besides being a "sanctuary city," Portland wanted to build a day labor facility for ILLEGAL aliens. If an illegal is arrested and ordered deported (only by the feds, the city would NEVER participate in this,) the city pays their rent until they must actually leave.

Many other examples abound. Look at Berkeley and the USMC. Look at Pol Pot killing all of his country's thinkers and professionals all in the cause of "the greater good." American liberals cannot see themselves EVER acting like Pol Pot or Mao or Stalin or Hitler, but I sure as hell can. They are ideologically connected at the hip.

And worse, they tend to be "socialists" in that they love to band together and cause their mischief, while Americanists like me tend to quietly go about their business and shun activist groups. The result of that is these liberal fascists manage to achieve their goals through tiny victories that add up to big trouble. These are dangerous, vicious people folks!


Thunderthudd
writes, "If America's liberals could merely eschew communism/socialism/facism/statism, we would be allies"

Meant to reply earlier. I agree. If then, most of the contentious social issues were relagated to the states, it would be wonderful. A country our founding fathers might even approve of.

I really dislike screaming online but,

STOP MAKING A FEDERAL CASE OUT OF EVERYTHING

Simple, wise advice your mother probably told you.

Pax Politicus
Big new! The Left gives up its fringe elements and so does the Right. Not gonna happen. There is a very good reason for it.
There is a price to pay for Democracy and freedom. Despite all of its glorious achievements in Capitalism, the ideology of Democracy was once considered Communist ideology.
Democracy, also known as Socialism Lite, throws bones to the dogs when they bark. Sometimes them pesky critters bark too much and Democracy winds up with a bunch of fat dogs on prescription heartburn medication or a bunch of skinny dogs on welfare.
Communism/Facism/Dictatorship has no bones to throw so the dogs just fight.
The trick of Democracy is to keep the fringes at each others throats.
Democracy cannot occur without the heated debate.
It is the engine that drives it.

Thanks for the review Dr,
I just bought the book as well as your "Economic Facts and Fallacies. It will take me a while but I am looking forward to read both !

Anthony
It looks like Sowell was saying that the liberal's tendency towards mental disorder in how things really are is so strong that Professor DuBois, a black man, would swallow Hitler's (a mean white nazi man) version of fascism/socialism. That's how powerful the grip of dementia in some areas of Dem/libs' minds can be. That a well educated black man would still see great things in a white derelict thug who believed in a superior race is remarkable.

Reading comprehension is so important.

And please, for us white folks, can you give us a list of acceptable areas of disagreements among black folks? Or better yet, a list of who is REALLY black and others who are not. That'd be great. Thanks and Happy Black History Month.

btw- it is a shame that a black man is maligning a genius who happens to be black during this month. Or any other month.

Dems
We all already know that Dems are intolerant and racists

Learn some history
Doug writes, "And of course, the Democrat [sic] party can boast of famous racists in its ranks, such as Robert Byrd, Bull Connor, and Lester Maddox."

Learn some history. The Democratic Party did indeed include many of the racists in the formerly "Solid South." Then Lyndon Johnson---knowing full well that the consequences for his party might be dire---supported the Civil Rights Act because it was the right thing to do..Sure enough, a lot of southern Democrats became disenchanted, Republicans assiduously courted them, and a lot of party switching went on.

So guess which party most merits the label "racist" now?

Simplistic View
I personally admire Dr. Sowell from the first Article he wrote that I was 'lucky' enough to read.

Coservatives = those who try to make their minds conform to reality.

Liberals = those who try to make reality conform to their mind.

I communicate better with machines than I can liberals. I can make machines process data correctly.

Fascism and Communism
I would argue only that fascists do indeed call for government ownership of the means of production (property). It's just that under fascism, the ownership is partial -- The government has some rights in all property. In every state in the US, e.g., the government can take your house away if you don't pay rent on it in the form of taxes. The ability to deny someone the use of something is an ownership right.

Under Communism, the ownership is total. National Socialism works like Fascism until a business or industry (Exxon, the medical industry) reaches a certain size and influence, at which point it is nationalized. For those enterprises, National Socialism works like Communism.

Jonah Goldberg also talks about Fascism as exalting the collective over the individual, but try as I might, I can't come up with a single dictator of any economic persuasion who didn't. I think we need to separate governmental concepts from economic concepts, lest a commitment to one draw us into bad choices regarding the other.

johninoregon
I'm sure you know the one black guy in Oregon. haha.

Anyway, to answer your question: "So guess which party most merits the label "racist" now?"

That answer is still the Democrat Party. The Party of lower standards for people of color except Arabs and Asians. And Hispanics. Ok. So really only lower standards for blacks. Soft bigotry is what it is called.

johninoregon - factually wrong
It is clear that you, sir, need to learn some history.

The Dixiecrats represented a serious split in the Democratic Party but not one that created a move to the Republican Party. In fact the creation of a third party retaining the name "Democrats" was the result expressly because they did not wish to switch over. After the demise of the short-lived alternative party, the OVERWHELMING majority of politicians who joined the Dixiecrats RETURNED to the Democratic Party and were welcomed back with open arms. The couple of Dixiecrats who eventually became Republicans (i.e., Thurmond) were, by FAR, the exception and not the rule.

So if your reasoning (if not your history) is sound, the question, "So guess which party most merits the label 'racist' now?" yields an entirely different answer thatn the one you believe.

chollybygolly
I would agree with you in this: there is a difficulty when we try to separate social and economic totalitarianism. In fact, they are part and parcel of the same sickness, the same disease - that of human egocentrism. Not to be a broken record, but the symptoms may differ, but the underlying disease, the primary cause, is the same.

In what Goldberg identifies as liberal fascism, we *still* get social control. It is inevitable - again, see the UK and its health system having to serious look at dictating the type of lifestyles people get to lead in order to get the "free" health care. No laws to force people, you're just "nagged," as Goldberg put it, into compliance.

The social fascism may drive the need to control the economic aspects of a nation (such as the need to "level the playing field"), or it may be the other way around (as with the UK health care system). Either way, it is, truly, a totalitarian system that any system of "the revolution" inevitably slides into. (Please see my earlier post regarding that reference).

the sinner,

Charles

THANK YOU JONAH GOLDBERG!!!
Yes!!! I have been reading this book since it came out. Time does not permit me to get all the reading done in a shorter period of time ( I have 2 jobs). This book, "Liberal Fascism" is what I have been waiting for since forever. My family is form Italy. On one side of my family are the Fascists and on the other are the Communists. AND MY PARENTS ARE NEITHER. They are American Conservatives. I always stand amazed when I go to Italy and see the Fascists and Communists arguing. I feel like screaming (and cursing--but I won't here) "What's wrong with you people? It's all the same you know what!!!" These two groups would actually argue as if there were some big gap between these 2 ideologies. I have been trying to explain this forever. when people are shocked that I am conservative, they ask what's so appealing about Fascism. I tell them I am a conservative, which is a Capitalist not a Socialist (Fascist). They look amazed. "What do you mean" I tell them, " hey Schmuck, Fascists are Socialists. Nazis too. Nazis are National Socialists. Did you know that?" At this point they usually go back to their Bush-Oil theories. Anyway Jonah Goldberg has done a fabulous job and I recommend everyone buy his book, "Liberal Fascism"

Beliefs vs Actions
It doesn’t really matter what label can be applied to anyone’s beliefs. What matters is what they are inclined to do to promote those beliefs. The Nazi’s, after all, did not understand themselves to be the bad guys. They believed they were the good guys and they believed they were saving Europe. They believed that to be true with such a fanatical self-rightious certainty that they allowed their ends to justify their means. At that point, it was not their believes that were to be feared so much as it was what they allowed the intensity of their believes to justify their doing to advance them

We all, presumably, believe in our causes, whatever they might be. That does not distinquish anyone from anyone else. That is the point. We must not, therefore, accept the intensity of our convictions as support for our beliefs. Instead, we need to judge ourselves by the consequences of our actions.

It is not the beliefs of others that I fear. It is the actions they allow the intensity of their beliefs to justify. We can and should all judge ourselves in that regard.

Why not just gnore Anthony Thomas?
I should think that by now it is self-evident to all libertarian-leaning posters on this string that Anthony Thomas is an intellectually dishonest and highly manipulative sophist.
Can any of the individualism-oriented posters give a rational explanation as to why the ad-hominem specialist, AT, should ever be responded to on a Sowell talk string, especially after repeatedly demonizing Dr. Sowell as "self-hating"?
It would be amusing indeed to see a face-to-face debate between the highly manipulative, self-perceived-as-clever AT and Dr. Sowell. It would be fun watching Sowell's reaction to AT's idiotic "blacker-than-thou" bovine feces!
Can't we all just engage in a gigantic "right wing conspiracy" to ignore the likes of AT and his BORING sophistry?
P.S. Unca Alby, I was surprised by you responding to AT. If memory serves, you were the one who told AbleGoodman to ignore such as AT! Not good modeling bro! :-)

Liberals = Socialists
Whether it be Clinton or Omama or any of the other pandering (to the working, or welfare classes)liberals their credo has never changed, just listen carefully to the rhetoric and sooner or later the old message comes through:

"From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need."--Karl Marx

--Thank you Thomas Sowell for another "on-
target" piece.

Last thought, funny is it not that black Americans like Mr. Sowell are often attacked as being "sell outs" but all those smiling whites at the Obama rallies are not...

laborlawyer
Your post speaks volumes. It demonstrates the EXACT tactics touted by the likes of Carl Marx, Lenin, and Stalin. So me thinks thou might actually be trying to spin the focus off the real topic, that socialism is like marxism and facism and shooting the messenger. Cute tactic but it won't work for someone who KNOWS the difference...Second "socialism" (feel good junkism) is to society as cancer is to the human body...they both feed off sugar and if left unchecked will consume the very thing they feed off of. It ultimately leads to the collapse of the body/society and is/has been proven throughout history and medicine. Feelings aren't fact so when ever a liberal tends to justify what they do based upon feelings or "good intentions" it doesn't necessarily mean that what they propose is right/correct for the society in which they live..and just feeeeeeeeling good about ones efforts is NOT justification enough. Remember, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions"..and I will thank anyone who wants to make every issue about feelings and bogus concerns to stop including me and my family on your march down the yellow brick road straight to hades. And please PAVE it with your own hard work and money...NOT mine.

A Funny Consistency
I recall quite vividly when it became clear that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction. The talking point that Saddam himself was a weapon of mass destruction made the rounds and showed up regularly in conservative commentary.

We are seeing something similar at the moment. The right wing has two redefinition campaigns going on. One is the attempt to redefine Democrats as the party which favors racism and segregation while opposing civil rights. This appears to be a reaction to the reality that the increasingly important minority vote skews heavily agaisnt Republicans. Half a dozen columns on TH alone tried to convince people on this score.

The second is the effort to convince people that Fascism is not an artifact of the right, but an artifact of the left. Pretty common effort these days. Despite the meanderings of Goldberg and the support of others, like Sowell, nobody is buying it. And for good reason.

What the modern mind "means" by fascism or racism isn't what Goldberg and the others are arguing against. Fascism, for example, currently represents the excesses of militarism, uber-patriotism, statism, and bigotry exemplified by the right. It doesn't matter whether that is the defintion accepted by Goldberg at al. That's what it means today.

Their argument is equivalent to a lengthy rant explaining that Kleenex is a brand name and doesn't mean facial tissue.





laborlawyer
You never responded to the article. You assume that giving people all these perks makes life better. You want to give people added perks, but who is going to pay for this, YOu do realize that the government makes no money. They only get money. How did communism or fascism survive. They haven't GM lost 37 billion dollars last year but the employees mustn't suffer. So what does that mean. Government is going to cover those costs. You mean tax payers. Company's need to make money in order to survive.

Jack, another lib in denial
JACK WRITES:What the modern mind "means" by fascism or racism isn't what Goldberg and the others are arguing against. Fascism, for example, "currently" represents the excesses of militarism, uber-patriotism, statism, and bigotry exemplified by the right. Only in your mind, Jack.

Just another example of the "newspeak" that the left has promulgated for decades to distract the nation from the true intent of their agenda, just as the meaning of "tolerance" has come to be synonymous with "acceptance of deviance". Modern mind? I doubt its very existence, in particular when reading posts like Jack's.

Fascism is Fascism, in spite of the left's attempts to deny the truth, but then..
"A lie told often enough becomes the truth",
Vladimir Lenin. Another "redistribution of the wealth guy", as I recall!

Genetic Fallacy

The genetic fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit. Even from bad things, good may come; we therefore ought not to reject an idea just because of where it comes from, as ad hominem arguments do. Equally, even good sources may sometimes produce bad results; accepting an idea because of the goodness of its source, as in appeals to authority, is therefore no better than rejecting an idea because of the badness of its source. Both types of argument are fallacious.

Examples
(1) My mommy told me that the tooth fairy is real.
Therefore:
(2) The tooth fairy is real.

(1) Eugenics was pioneered in Germany during the war.
Therefore:
(2) Eugenics is a bad thing.

Both of these arguments commit the genetic fallacy. Each judges an idea by the goodness or badness of its source rather than on its own merits.

Along the same lines as Sowell and Goldberg's argument about liberal facism, I've heard that most criminals are raised drinking milk, therefore we should outlaw milk because it must have some ingredient that makes people criminals.

I r confused
Just a few months ago here in TH it was all the rage to justify the conflation of terms in "Islamofascism." Now the usual suspects want to paint the American left with the same brush? It seems to apply to some of the leftist policies, as Goldberg points out. So how can these people still use the term for the radical terrorist fringe? Seems that the left holds no monopoly on the redefinition of terms to suit their agenda...

AF DOC
I know perfectly well what Goldberg at al are trying to do. I am telling you that it isn't working and won't work. And it is Goldberg at al who are practicing newspeak. If they weren't committed to changing people's minds and redefining concepts, they wouldn't be writing the articles and books.

Fascism is and remains the word we use to express totalitariansim on teh right. Communismis the word we use to express totlaitrariansim on teh left. Goldberg et al are trying to convince people that there is no such thing as right wing totalitarianism.


Conservatives?
Genetic fallacy: Logical fallacy committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit

Conservative: a term used to describe political philosophies that favor tradition

Hmmm?

Gideon -- on AT
"P.S. Unca Alby, I was surprised by you responding to AT. If memory serves, you were the one who told AbleGoodman to ignore such as AT! Not good modeling bro! :-)"

Hey, I can have a weak moment or two, no?

Actually, AT isn't always so bad. Sometimes he can be downright reasonable. Although, too often he's just plain vitriolic for no discernible reason other than he doesn't like Republicans, and he reserves especially strong venom for *black* Republicans. In such cases, yah, I've gotten into just ignoring him.

Sometimes though, a response just SCREAMS out to be posted! Who am I to suppress it? ;-)

Jack Redefines Redefining
"Fascism is and remains the word we use to express totalitarianism on the right."

In other words, "We have CHANGED the DEFINITION and we WON'T let you change it BACK."

Socialists love playing this game. That's why they hijacked the name "liberal", which was originally used to describe concepts more akin to Capitalism. Then, when the word "liberal" started being bandied about as if it were an insult, they changed to "progressive."

Ah, doesn't that have a nice sound to it?
Say it with me now -- "progressive" -- "progressive" --
aaaaahhhhhhhh.

Who DOESN'T want PROGRESS, hmmmm?

This is why a Classical Liberal needs to apply the adjective "classical" to distinguish himself from the Modern Liberal. The Classical Liberal leans Libertarian, while the Modern Liberal leans Totalitarian.

It's an old trick, changing definitions to suit the propaganda. Socialists discovered a long time ago that people will never vote for Socialism when it's called by its rightful name. But when you can paint a good cover story on top, then you can piecemeal it into the American psyche, one bit at a time, until Americans become Marxist without ever being aware of the transition.

But we can not let this happen.

Otherwise, people will continue making comparisons between conservatives, Republicans, people like Rush Limbaugh, etc., to Hitler and Mussolini. The comparisons are completely 100% specious, but people won't KNOW they're specious if liberals can get away with changing all the definitions.

Which, sadly to say, I think is part of the agenda.

Alby
I am describing what is. That seems to distress you.

facism
Well, what is the difference then between our so-called compassionate conservatives and Mussolini or Hitler. Facism, according to Mussolini, is "a system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism." (Thom Hartman, Screwed, page 69). There is hardly much difference between this and Bush ordering secret wiretapping of our phones, or Bush invading Iraq on trumped up charges, or the state and business leaders of this country conspiring to misplace billions of dollars of taxpayer funding into their pockets.




Jack is bogus, Part 1
Jack said, "I am describing what is."
Doesn't that depend on what the meaning of "is" is, Jack, baby?
Who elected you Webster's Unabridged Dictionary? Hmmmm?
Alby's right and you're erroneous.
Were you asleep when I posted the following:
"Webster defines 'fascism' as 'private economic enterprise under centralized government control.'
Another way of putting it is that fascism is a system whereby private interests control government and its monetary and taxing structures for their own personal financial benefit.
Thomas Jefferson said there are only two kinds of government: 1) you run your own life, or 2) somebody else runs it for you. Therefore, in reality, all the 'isms' and 'archies' are merely camouflage to keep the "little people" arguing among themselves about ideologies they know little about while the wannabe-clever elite steal their labor and produce. Basically that is more properly called 'feudalism'. In other words, fascism does not equal racism; fascism equals feudalism. Feudalism is the better word because it is simpler and more accurate."

Jack is bogus, Part 2
Do you have a problem with basic logic, or what? Since it is self-evident that "fascism" = somebody else running your life and stealing your labor, what's the big difference between "leftist" fascists who want to run your life steal your labor for welfare handouts, or "rightist" fascists who want to run your life and steal your labor for their corporate buddies? The VATT (vermin at the top) couldn't care less what government borrows money for — as long as they get to create the money out of thin air and collect the interest on it.
When somebody tries to run my life and steal my labor, I don't much care if you call him "fascist" or "fat rat's behind". It's what the control freak is DOING that I'll fight to the death over, not what he calls himself.
If you are what passes on "the left" for a deep thinker, it is no wonder you guys are completely unarmed in the battleground of ideas and human potential. You socialists really do need to do some reading. I was of your school of thought as a freshman in college, but thankfully, I got shed of that crap several decades ago.
The emotional case for "leftist" control-freak, steal-your-labor Utopia has never been made better than in "Looking Backward" by Edward Bellamy.
There has NEVER been a logical case. See, e.g. John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty" — not to mention, Von Mises, Bastiat, Hayek, Rothbard, Sowell, Walter Williams, ad infinitum
Read some books and grow a brain, dude!

This Book is a Conservative Must Read
Please excuse my TH name. I do not know how to change it.

This book is definitely a must read. I just picked it up the other day, and I am half way through it.

This book is not for "liberals". They are so misinformed, they will never get it. So I am talking only to Conservatives. Ignore "liberals" they are lost in an emotional state of denial. They cannot look at it from a non-emotional point of view.

Until now, through my fine government school understanding of the New Deal, I actually gave FDR credit for striking a balance between the communist pressures of the day (read unions, etc.) and the liberties of capitalisim. I realize I was wrong (what do you expect, I had a public, er, government education). FDR was a fascist.

The facts have been right in front of us all along, but our thinking has been tainted.

Our Country is so facist, I am not sure enough of us could every come to this realization to ever turn back.

But I am a Conservative, an optimist by nature, so I may be deluding myself, I believe there must be a way.

Read this book! We are not dealing with communists in this Country. The left of this Country are fascists.

Jack
"I am describing what is."

I know what you're describing.

You're describing what you want reality to be. You want to throw out the dictionary and replace it with your own, where the definition for "Republican" is "see Fascist", and next to the definition of "Fascist" is a picture of Bush.



"That seems to distress you."

When people deliberately misuse and distort the language for the propaganda purposes of making opponents appear "evil" and/or "stupid" and/or "bad guys" etc., then yes, it distresses me.

This distortion has been going on for so long until you've actually forgotten the correct meaning.

Medved Fan - TH name
"Please excuse my TH name. I do not know how to change it."

Clear your browser cookies, then create a new TH name. I forget if it requires an e-mail that's never been used before, but if so, create a new Gmail or Yahoo account.

Laborlawyer: Same old lies
What's more indicative of the American left - its ideology, its current moniker, or the outcomes its policies have produced? And why won't the left accept any accountability for these?

In my debates with leftists, they argue their ideology without allowing it to be called anything other than "progressive". And when conservatives demonstrate the historical provenance of "progressive" ideology as some variant of socialism, leftists invariably disengage from reasoned debate and start lying, slithering, playing semantic games and leveling ad hominem attacks. I find all of this disgusting.

So please tell me, laborlawyer, why will leftists not own up to the provenance of their ideology and the historical outcomes their ideology has produced?


WILL THE REAL FASCIST PLEASE STAND UP!
My father was a facsist in hungary prior to emigrating. So, I have a bit of first hand sense for the mind set.
Later, as a campus faux SDS'er, I waged a mighty war against the 'state' of Amerika....until I found myself unable to grasp why I was doing what I was doing and whether I was really a solution or just another manifestation of 'the problem with this country.'
30 years later have found a bit of truth. I came to it slowly like a thick headed Hungarian; free people, free markets and free government are an achievement not an entitlement or a right.
I am sick and tired of others telling me what is good for me, my country and how to run my business, small as it is.
Communists, socialists, fascists, so forth and their ilk (you know who you are) are an anathema to the process of democracy, all obscruction carried out in my name. Oh really?
Geo

Goldberg's Book
Seriously, the book is the stupidest one ever written. Liberals are the keystone that defeated word fascism.

Taft
Yes we are where we are because of liberalism...Classical liberalism; an animal that bears little in common with the liberalism of today.

To reply to liberals here...
You may not believe yourselves to be "fascists," but the things you believe in only give rise to such things. The more power to regulate the free market and individuals you hand over to the government, the more tools of oppression you give them. On the other hand, the more power you diffuse through the implements of Freedom, protected by an impartial legal system designed to protect the free market and its participants, the freer and more prosperous people will be.

Do you know why Mao, Stalin and Hitler were able to rule their nations with an iron fist? It's because their supporters and predecessors created the circumstances and the political situation that made their power and their atrocities exist in the first place. Each regime, like so many others, displaced individual liberty and individual ownership and power of the means of production, which is real power in a nation.

This means that those that support further government centralization and power are collectively (no pun intended) in the same ground as fascists, monarchists and communists, and those that truly want freedom are in the same ground as the likes of the American Founding Fathers, who espoused free markets, federalism, and individual liberty.

You may believe that minimum wage laws are harmless, but they do violate the First Amendment to the Constitution by infringing on Free Association, and though you may believe you are doing something benevolent, you are, in fact, giving the government a tool of oppression they were never meant to have. It is a death by a thousand cuts.

What Freedom Means...
Too many Americans believe that Freedom means to be free from hardship and toil, free from worry and doubt, free from misery. Too many believe that it is wrong that so many in the world go without food, go without shelter, go without medicine, but they never seem to connect to reasons why they go without, and seek only to address the symptoms and not the problem. And far to many, in their cupidity to address the symptoms, are willing to force others to pay them to redistribute to these "needy."

Life itself is not a guarantee, especially in a time of convenient abortions. At some point, you must, as a human being, be willing to assume responsibility for your own welfare and success. This is what FREEDOM is all about. It is not about getting hand-outs from your fellow citizens, who were forced by law to give it to you. It's about rolling up your own sleeves, dealing with the cards you were dealt, and making the success you want. Others are free to help you make it; charity is a hallmark of a free society.

Success isn't always easy to come by. Often times you will fail, and it is your right to fail. Nobody likes to lose, but losing isn't always a bad thing. Indeed, it teaches us all lessons about life that no government program can ever teach.

But if we live in a nation where the obstacles to success were fewer than they are now, success would be easier to achieve and failure would not hurt so much.

Class envy, tool of oppression.
If you are one of those people who feel it is unfair that so many people have so little when so many others have so much, you must abandon the notion of fairness.

Life isn't fair. Not all of us will be millionaires, but that doesn't mean you can't. The wonderful thing about life being unfair is that it works to your advantage.

If those who cater to class envy, like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, had their way, nobody (except themselves) would be wealthy. They would never allow you to reap the rewards of your effort and your risks.

Why? Because they believe it's fair to those who do not succeed as you have, or even to those who haven't even tried, to have a share of your success.

The real fascist is interested only in power, and if he can appeal to your class envy, he will do so. And he will continue to use what got himself into power so that he remains indefinitely. They're not really interested in national or individual prosperity so long as it furthers their own interests to amass and hold onto power. This sort of envy can be molded into a form of bigotry, which is not at all productive to either the individual or the nation as a whole.

Thanks Thomas
On my way to get a copy now. Your insights are always helpful and on target.

"conservatives" are also fascists
Today's "liberals" are fascists. So-called conseratives like to call the Democrats far-leftists, Stalinists or Marxists. In reality, most of what they advocate is government control of private property, i.e. fascism. This doesn't let conservatives off the hook, though. Using the same definition of fascism, Reagan, Bush I, Bush II, Limbaugh, Hannity, et al. all qualify as fascists. Despite their free-market rhetoric they all support(ed) income taxation, cartels (banking, agriculture, transportation), business regulations, drug prohibition, social security (which is more of a socialist program), censorhip. Granted, in the U.S. we do have our share of socialism. The big one being education and the Fed. and state government ownership of "public" lands.

Two distinct types of "rich"
There needs to be a bit of clarification of terms in the class-envy discussion.
There is a huge difference between the type of "rich" person who invents something the whole world wants to buy (e.g. Model-T Ford, Beatle records, radio's, TV's, personal computers, etc), and the type of "rich person representative of the deceptive, manipulative, control-freak, feudalistic, transnationalistic, globalist international financial elite who want to create and privately own a global financial structure that gives them a percentage of all labor and production on earth without being accountable to, or controllable by, any government or group of governments on earth.
The latter group, the Venetian-type banking families, I consider to be truly evil because they don't want everybody to be prosperous and have money. They're only happy if they are the only ones who have money and power. They manipulate governments and public opinion to get what they want. I call them VATT (the vermin at the top).
If everybody in the world were "rich", the VATT would have to clean their own houses and raise their own children. That they have no intention of doing because they are sure they are a higher form of life than those individuals (like leftists) who don't understand the deception and manipulation.
Most "rich" people don't fall into the "evil" category, and thus are not deserving of the "left's" ad hominem attacks.
Not only does the "left" not want to attack the VATT, they don't even know about them, or are naive enough to think they can use them for their own misguided Utopian agenda.


American government and the VATT
Be not deceived, all branches of the fascist American government are fully aware of (and afraid of) the VATT (vermin at the top).
The GOP and DEMS are like the Genoveses and the Gambinos. They will have their disagreements and turf battles, but in the end, won't risk exposing, or putting an end, to the fraudulent feudalistic game.
This is were the socialists (neo-libs) go wrong. They actually believe there is a difference between the Genoveses and the Gambinos. Amazing!
Throughout human history, the bottom line has ALWAYS been who controls the military.
The libs are too ignorant to understand that money has always bought, paid for, and controlled the military. Money controls the military.
The worlds governments have given the Venetian-style internationalist banking families the "legal" power to create money out of thin air. When you have that power, you will always win out over the interests who have to exchange their labor for the money to give to political causes. The VATT simply creates however much money they need to outbid you in Nature's free marketplace for whatever political campaign is at hand.
So, libs, here's the $64 question for you: since the VATT controls the money and the military, exactly how do you propose to beat them, destroy their system, redistribute their wealth, and create orgasmic "Utopia" when you don't even have the most basic understanding of the very economic and political systems with which they are enslaving you? Hmmmmmmm?
Libertarians submit that the free market, which Nature itself inherently, per se, is, represents THE ONLY alternative to feudalistic (aka "fascistic") slavery.

Tubbs
There is no "genetic fallacy" here. It would be fallacious if he were rejecting specific policies simply because they come from fascism. This column is about whether fascism is a form of conservative thought, as has been assumed by generations of liberals, or a form of leftist thought.

Fallacy requires a substitute for reason, which is not evident Sowell's column or Goldberg's book.

Laborlawyer
Do you charge $hundred$ per hour or $5.98 per hour for legal work? I think the govt should cap lawyer fees at $10.00 an hour. How ya like them fascist, er liberal ideas?

no kidding they are...
Go reread your Orwell. Of course the left is fascist, communist too! The American leftists contain both aspects.

I realized this ever since the 80’s when campaigning for the Republicans I caught unholy hell from Democrat brown shirt thugs bent on shutting me down. I was harassed, had property destroyed, slandered, libeled and eventually beaten because I refused to cave in on my right to free speech and a just society.

Applause for Sowell
Sowell gets it right in this essay.

Also, while both fascism and communism are socialist, the distinction was in the populist base. With communism the populist base were those at the bottom, it arises in societies where authoritarian rule has kept the middle-class from becoming the dominant group. Fascism is populism for the middle class, and arises where there is some failure in the free markets that gave rise to the middle class.

Of course the true goal of all socialism, be it communism or fascism, is for the political elite to gain power without actually having to earn it by producing any good or service that benefits others.

But within the fascist state, the failure of the free market is seen as arising fundamentally from economic freedom rather than from market distortions. The view is that we must work together, and that the individual desire to succeed must be suppressed as being mere greed.

Within the fascist mentality, the state is not there to serve the individual, rather the individual serves the state. Or as someone famous once said, "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." That is fascism in a nutshell.

Rhetoric vs. Reality
"If by conservatism you mean belief in free markets, limited government, and traditional morality, including religious influences, then these are all things that the Fascists opposed just as much as the left does today."

Conservatives pay lip service to those things, but once in power they involve themselves in the free market, grow government power and spending, and do little to promote traditional values, beyond attempts to censor broadcast media and the internet.


***
Dread writes:
"Conservatives pay lip service to those things, but once in power they involve themselves in the free market, grow government power and spending, and do little to promote traditional values, beyond attempts to censor broadcast media and the internet."

While you can accuse "conservative" politician's of these things, this isn't as a matter of course, a "conservative" philosophy. However, even those that I would feel is a strectch to call themselves "conservative" aren't lining up to increase regulation on industry (auto/air/MS/ etc), take over the healthcare industry, and punish those that create jobs and wealth by taxing all incentive to create either.

Seconaly, while I will not quible with the reality that gov't has grown as of recent, I would again point out to you that this isn't a "conservative" practice...if anything, one could argue that it was a political one. And there would be few who'd argue that the "conservative's" grew it only as much, or more than the liberal's would have if they'd have had their way.

But the last point you make is the most specious. I can't tell you the number of times conservatives have been ridiculed for wishing to teach that "kids should wait" to have relations, rather than treating it as a perfuntory biological need and everyone should do it, but "safely". Or that parents SHOULD have greater control of thier childrens education, rather than some bueracracy. Or that TV should have NO restrictions as to the material that kids should be able to view whenever they wish. Beyond this, what more SHOULD gov't do? (wait's for anticipated "fed-funded pre-school, school lunches/breakfast, state funded day-care, time off from work, blah blah blah)

Fantastic review
Like Goldberg, Sowell goes to great lengths to show liberal dogma shares some comparison with the original meaning of 'fascism.' However, both omit discussions of free elections, rampant corporatism, secretive governments, domestic spying and basically every other component of modern American politics that negates such a comparison. Goldberg and Sowell reach as far as possible to denigrate the term ‘progressive,’ but ultimately reveal the limitations of their own intellects.

Name calling
Dr. Sowell is simply pointing out the lack of knowledge by the left in calling conservatives "fascist". It is not a a hate piece as I cannot see anywhere in the article where he puts down socialists, communists or fascists. He merely points out their belief system. If the shoe fits ....
The left cannot successfully debate their belief system since it has failed in every society that used it. They must therefore use demogogary, name calling and lies or inaccurate data to support their feelings that they must be correct. Their arrogance in feeling that only they know what is best for me is disgusting. Anyone that thinks government can do anything better than the private sector is an idiot, or severely misguided.

The Left exposed
One of the many tactics of the Left to advance their agenda is to usurp terms which they then re-define to suit their own purposes. I must say I’m always amazed at their ability to do this, but then I tend to forget who they’re preaching to.

When I first heard ‘fascist’ being used to describe Bush and his administration, I laughed it off and chalked it up to liberal ignorance. But like a toddler who learns a new word, it soon became the favorite term of all libs, and next thing I knew everyone right of center was a ‘fascist.’

It’s great to see someone setting the record straight. The book must be pretty good, as I’ve now seen several prominent conservatives endorse it, not the least of which is the brilliant Dr. Sowell.

We've seen laborlawyer's kind before
If this were 1932 and a few thousand miles to the East, Mr. Laborlawyer would be standing in a bier garten singing "Tomorrow Belongs To Me" at the top of his lungs.

The trajectory through history of dictators and the moral monsters of the Left has left the mass murder of millions and the enslavment and impoverishment of millions more in their wake. No other ideology outside of Islam can make that claim.

And in every case, they had the help of willing participants like laborlawyer to accomplish their ends.

It's time for Atlas to shrug - and to pick up a gun.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.