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Tuesday, April 07, 2009
Robert Knight :: Townhall.com Columnist
Iowa Court, Vermont Legislators Ban Common Sense
by Robert Knight
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To a disturbing number of judges, most of the media, and now the Vermont legislature, marriage was created only to shut out homosexuals. That’s it. There’s no other reason for its presence in the law.

How else to interpret the vote today (April 7) in the Senate and House to override Vermont Gov. Jim Douglas’s veto and to legalize same-sex “marriage?”  Or the rulings in Massachusetts, California, Connecticut and Iowa that find nothing unique about men and women bonding for life? Or headlines like this from the April 4 Wall Street Journal

“Iowa Supreme Court Overturns Gay-Marriage Ban”

The Iowa law, as with most states, does not mention same-sex relationships. It establishes requirements, beginning with a male-female couple. Characterizing this ruling as overturning a “ban” defines the institution negatively – by what it is not.

In its unanimous opinion in Varnum v. Brien, the Iowa Supreme Court says that real marriage is merely a form of “prejudice” (using that word 21 times) and hints that homosexuals might be better parents than the mother-father variety. The seven justices cite junk science from gay-dominated guilds (the American Psychological Assn., etc.) to float the idea that kids are no better off in a normal home:

“Almost every professional group that has studied the issue indicates children are not harmed when raised by same-sex couples, but to the contrary, benefit from them. …we acknowledge the existence of reasoned opinions that dual-gender parenting is the optimal environment for children. These opinions, while thoughtful and sincere, were largely unsupported by reliable scientific studies.”

Say what? They have it exactly backwards. It’s the “gay parenting” studies that are deeply flawed, as Drs. Robert Lerner and Althea Nagai demonstrate thoroughly in their devastating book No Basis: What the studies Don’t tell us about same-sex parenting. Meanwhile, oceans of data from every conceivable authority show the advantages of the mother-and-father, intact family.

The Iowa court, like the others before it, and the hippy dippy Vermont lawbreakers ask us to believe, absurdly, that men and women have no meaningful differences. Even homosexuals think the sexes are quite different, preferring one over the other.

The creation of counterfeit “marriage” is a finger in the eye of God, who created marriage as the first human institution. Jesus reminded the Pharisees:

 “Have you not read that He which made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, for this cause shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh?” (Matthew 19:4,5, Gen. 2:24)

But in America’s kookier courts and trendy New England, the Bible – the founding document of Western legal thought – is ruled irrelevant, and marriage is a speed bump on the road to sexual liberation.

The Iowa judges say that keeping marriage male and female “does not substantially further any important governmental objective.”

Really? Society would survive without a single homosexual relationship, but it would collapse without marriage. The law recognizes that marriage is unique and irreplaceable.  Lots of homosexuals are wonderful, caring people, and some have close relationships, but that does not make them “married” any more than a brother and sister can be “married.”

Rep. Barney Frank often asks the straw man question, “How does my gay relationship hurt your marriage?”

On an individual basis, it doesn’t. But creating a falsehood in the law transforms morality into a form of bigotry. The implications are enormous, according to gay columnist Michelangelo Signorile, who said in 1994 that gays should “fight for same-sex marriage and its benefits and then, once granted, redefine the institution of marriage completely, to demand the right to marry not as a way of adhering to society’s moral codes but rather to debunk a myth and radically alter an archaic institution.”

Does that sound like merely adding another harmless category?

In 2004, just after Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney began issuing same-sex marriage licenses even though the legislature never authorized them, National Public Radio reported an immediate effect. A lesbian eighth-grade teacher told NPR that same-sex “marriage” made it okay for her to describe in graphic detail homosexual sex acts to her students. Elementary school pupils were soon treated to readings of King & King and Heather Has Two Mommies.  A father who objected wound up in jail.

As marriage has been devalued by easy divorce, cohabitation and now, in certain benighted venues, the ejection of an entire sex from the two-sex formula, this does not “improve” society. What is billed as “progressive” is actually moral corruption.

God Almighty created marriage thousands of years before the men of Sodom thought they had a better idea. If judicial tyrants have their way, America will outdo Sodom and even decadent Greece and Rome, where same-sex “marriage” was unthinkable.

When apprised of the Iowa court’s arrogant ruling, a state Senate minority leader thundered that it was: “disappointing.” He did pledge to support a constitutional amendment protecting marriage.

That’s good and necessary. But when is a legislature or governor going to tell rogue judges that the jig is up? When are citizens going to tell public officials at all levels that they simply don’t have the authority to radically redefine marriage and set up our children and grandchildren for mandatory lessons about same-sex coupling?

While it’s still legal, the resistance had better get organized – and busy.

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About The Author

Robert Knight is a Senior Writer/Correspondent for Coral Ridge Ministries and a Senior Fellow for the American Civil Rights Union.
 
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oops! typo
I meant to say: "the legislatures and courts CAN'T uphold animus.

Knight is sounding like
the same judge who said that almighty God made the races on separate continents so that they couldn't mix, so therefore they shouldn't.


Knight is lying outright about which research was cited in court and which is accurate and the proper evidence the court required and reviewed.

Isn't there something more pragmatic required here?

Religious belief is the cultural invention, that is a fact. One has much flexibility and freedom when it comes to choosing and to what degree.

Homosexuality is not. Neither is being intersexed, which is a medical condition and not one of morals.
Marriage equality could make allowance for someone with that condition to have the option and opportunity to marry.

Asserting that you think gay/or gender variant people have no value or represent something not human enough to adhere to the standards the court could see no exception in for gay people: then the objections here ARE animus. And the courts, nor legislatures can uphold animus. Their oath is in the protection and adherence to the Constitutions, not the Bible.

In states and countries where gay couples can marry, the usual conjecture is proven false. Continuing to say that these decisions come at the expense of the quality of religious freedom, marriage and it's definitions is also false.

Getting hysterical over these turns of events looks like spite.
Were family and marriage advocates putting their time and money into families in crisis because of the economy, addiction, violence or desertion, I'd have more respect for them.
But no, most of their resources are spent on keeping gay people in legal limbo.

Over the last several weeks there have been nearly daily mass murders. Some stemming from domestic violence.
Where ARE the priorities of those marriage advocates? Aren't you asking?

anderson #103
Since you are back with your malarkey zombietime crapola and acting like that is representative of all homosexuals, allow me to post a response to you AGAIN that I posted not too long back in the Chapman thread.

Regarding Mardi Gras, here is one link I have posted before. It may not ‘show’ as graphic a pictures or videos but it most certainly does show the kind of despicable SEX acts which occur at Mardi Gras!

http://www.amxvideo.com/titles/a208.htm

And NOTICE that many videos have to be ordered before you can view them! There is no doubt that if one were to order these videos you would see just as despicable acts as those you say about our side!

Here is one section in this link:

“RAW Sex Mardi Gras Vol. 4 #A-184
RAW Sex Mardi Gras Vol. 3 #A-157
RAW Sex Mardi Gras Vol. 2 #A-136”

And there is plenty more for those who has a mind for honest research!


Anderson your stereotypical nonsense only fools those who already agree with your views.

Obama's "Gallows Humor"
A good, longtime friend once told me "I knew I wasn't like other Boys when I was 4 or 5". Must be something to that because my Friend has had the same, UGLY *Partner* for 30 years.
I've never seen a Male I wantedto go to bed with, but like an old CW Song, 'I've never gone to bed with an ugly woman but I've sure woke up with a few' !! TO EACH HIS/HER OWN!! Just don't expect me to tell U "way to go" CHEERS

Read Your Own Posts
""I didn’t say gays reproduce at the same rate as anybody." Then what did "Homosexuals are as fertile as heterosexuals,"mean? Try to at least maintain consistency. When you contradict yourself, you are unconvincing. " You are contradicting yourself again. When you said that homosexuals were as fertile as heterosexuals, you did it very clearly in the context of genetic inheritance; i.e., that homosexuals had as many children as heterosexuals. You can't just deny what you said and clearly meant when it becomes inconvenient. That would be dishonest, and we don't want that, do we?

What a crock Andy!
“I don’t believe gay marriage has anything to do with gays wanting marriage. I agree with Greg Koukl: “Same-sex marriage is not about civil rights. It is about validation and social respect. It is a radical attempt at civil engineering using government muscle to strong-arm the people into accommodating a lifestyle many find deeply offensive, contrary to nature, socially destructive, and morally repugnant.”

We all want validation and social respect. That’s not unique to gay people.

Exactly what accommodations for their “lifestyle” do you think you’ll have to make? You’ll still be free to be disgusted and disapproving. You can still marvel at your high degree of success in perfecting your heterosexuality, while lesser persons can only achieve homosexuality.

I know this because I am deeply offended by obese people, believe their excess body fat is contrary to nature (their bodies are trying to tell them something!), socially destructive (as well all pay the medical bills to fix all the problems their obesity creates) and morally repugnant (hello? There’s starving kids out there…give some of your food to them!). I like to glare at them in restaurants. They never seem to notice me though. Too busy eating I guess.

The problem with zombietime...
Sure, that website is disgusting.

You know what went down in my hometown of LA just a few months ago? The Adult Expo. It was just as explicit and unacceptable for public behavior, imho.

There's a big difference between the argument for/against sex in public and the argument for/against prejudice against homosexuals.

WRH Bill Ohio, two reasons to start
You write and ask for reasons unrelated to the bible to decline same sex marriage, here are two, your thoughts are:

"There may be valid secular reasons for not permitting gay civil marriage, though most of the suggested reasons I have seen seem to me unconvincing."

Comment: Reason 1, View this. Is this what you want to see in YOUR town?

http://zombietime.com/up_your_alley_2008/

However,if the primary reason for banning gay marriage is that "the Bible says only men and women can marry", then there is no more basis for writing that into secular law than there would be to pass a law requiring everyone to attend church every Sunday "

A very good reason from a homosexual:


Why Prop. 8 supporters are bigots

I don’t believe gay marriage has anything to do with gays wanting marriage. I agree with Greg Koukl: “Same-sex marriage is not about civil rights. It is about validation and social respect. It is a radical attempt at civil engineering using government muscle to strong-arm the people into accommodating a lifestyle many find deeply offensive, contrary to nature, socially destructive, and morally repugnant.”

View reason #1, and then reflect on reason #2, if you need more I have others.

Robert in AZ
Saying homosexuals are as fertile as heterosexuals means they have the same potential, as individuals, to mate. I’ve not seen any evidence to say that a male homosexual is less fertile than a male heterosexual. Fertility is reproductive potential. Actually having kids is a different matter.

I wish I could tame my disgust with the hypocrisy of so-called Christians. There are just too many examples of how they hurt people who don’t want to do their way. Jews and Muslims seem content to live their lives as they see fit; Christians can’t seem to resist meddling with laws and school curriculums to further their agenda.

The Bible is not the law
Robert Knight states in his column:
"But in America’s kookier courts and trendy New England, the Bible – the founding document of Western legal thought – is ruled irrelevant,"

Mr. Knight, the Bible *is*, or should be, irrelevant when judges are deciding a matter of Constitutional law-- and not just in the view of a few "kooky courts", but based on the wording of the Constitution itself. The Constitution does not at any point directly cite the Bible as a basis. But it does, in the First Amendment, state "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." To enshrine the Bible-- the sacred book of one particular religion or set of religions-- as a legal authority alongside or above the Constitution and the secular law, is an establishment of religion.

Yes, I know that many of the Founders were Christians of one sort or another and respected the Bible (though most do not seem to have been fundamentalist "bible-believers" who considered the Bible to be absoltely inerrant). Nonetheless, *they* did not choose to enshrine the Bible within the Constitution. Perhaps they felt their religion was strong enough to survive on its own without being propped up by government.

There may be valid secular reasons for not permitting gay civil marriage, though most of the suggested reasons I have seen seem to me unconvincing. However,if the primary reason for banning gay marriage is that "the Bible says only men and women can marry", then there is no more basis for writing that into secular law than there would be to pass a law requiring everyone to attend church every Sunday (or a law based on the Koran requiring everyone under penalty and law to kneel on a rug and pray five times a day).

You said it Jeffrey
"I didn’t say gays reproduce at the same rate as anybody." Then what did "Homosexuals are as fertile as heterosexuals,"mean? Try to at least maintain consistency. When you contradict yourself, you are unconvincing. And you don't give proof. You just say "I knew this guy." You'd be more convincing as a crusader (pardon the Christian reference) against hate and bigotry if you weren't so obviously steeped in it yourself.

The fact that we disagree doesn't make you immature. Plenty of mature, intelligent people disagree with me, and I talk to them on these threads. Your display of malice and ad hominum attacks does.


Male and Female is gender
. . . not a series of recently invented catalogues of various sexual proclivities. " Gender is more complicated and includes "masculinity" and "femininity" as well as sexual orientation." It is precisely this kind of artificial division that is not proven by the article. What is proven is M-F division. \

By the way, surely you aren't saying that homosexual men are more feminine and homosexual women more masculine? That seems to be exactly what you are saying. My homosexual friends assure me vehemently that this is a calumny, and that homosexuals can be exactly as masculine or feminine as heterosexuals. You seem to be promoting the effeminite gay guy-- butch lesbian stereotype.

Robert in AZ
“You offer no proof of your dubious allegations about gays having the same reproduction rate as straights, but claim you know because of your knowledge of human nature. Yet you demonstrate no understanding of human nature, but only an immature adolescent malice against Christians.

Why does no one find this convincing?”

I didn’t say gays reproduce at the same rate as anybody. I don’t think anyone can know that. I know a gay man who had three sons when he was married. I know another gay guy who had two sons when he was married. When my brother was married to a woman, he would have had children but his wife was afraid of childbirth.

I don’t think the fact that you and I disagree makes me immature. It’s true, in the past 10 years or so I’ve become very disgusted with what Christianity has become, as well as the vocal judgmental and hypocritical nature of many of its practitioners. They are using homosexuals as an enemy to galvanize the faithful. That disgusts me. It appears that Christians come to this hateful website to find comfort and validation that others are similarly hateful.

Not once have I read anyone, either in article form or as an article comment, remark how difficult it must be for a gay person to deal with same-sex attraction. There is a remarkable lack of sympathy. Only blame and suspicions of a sinister agenda. I’d cry but I’ve chosen instead to try to fight the hate and bigotry by posting my comments often on TH.com.

People choose to engage in

same-sex sodomy because they are either mentally ill or morally depraved.

The practices of same-sex sodomy

may be natural for animals. It most certainly is not natural for human beings.

weak as water
I am totally against gay marriage, but this guys dig at Mitt Romney is inexcusable. Governor Romney was forced by law to allow the issuance of the marriage certificates, and did all he could to stop it. So sneaking in this backwards slap at him does nothing but hurt the authors arguments. If you are so deceived by the Romney haters then you have no moral authority in my book. I agree gay marriage is a against all that God intends and those who push it and practice it will someday answer to God, but don't backstab those that are also fighting it. And yes, I've heard all the old stupid talking points of the anti-Romney group. It's nonsense. It sounds good until you really study and discover the truth of what went on.

Burdening society with the

costs of same-sex couples is foolish.

Same-sex couples provide nothing of benefit to society.

Why should society be burdened with the costs incurred by providing same-sex couples with the same benefits provided to opposite-sex married couples?

Do not we pay enough in taxes without haphazardly providing benefits to, at best, socially neutral relationships; typically, socially damaging relationships?

Your Proof is Lacking, Jeffrey
You offer no proof of your dubious allegations about gays having the same reproduction rate as straights, but claim you know because of your knowledge of human nature. Yet you demonstrate no understanding of human nature, but only an immature adolescent malice against Christians.

Why does no one find this convincing?

Defining terms
Robert, you wrote that the science of pre-natal hormones
"only applies to gender"

I think we have a miscommunication regarding terms. Sex is defined by the physical equipment. Gender is more complicated and includes "masculinity" and "femininity" as well as sexual orientation. For sex, there is really only M or F. For gender there is straight, gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, etc.

We are talking about gender today, not sex.

Robert AZ
“Homosexuals have always had the option of not marrying persons of the other sex and most have exercised it.”

You know this for a fact? Do you seriously believe that homosexuals haven’t felt pressured to marry someone of the opposite sex,? Social pressure? Family pressure? Desire for children? Desire for companionship? I think you’re kidding yourself, or just plain foolish.

“How brave of them to overcome their repugnance for the opposite sex!”

How sad for them that because of ignorant, selfish people like you they had to, in order to experience some kind of love and companionship.

“Your example is rarely true, not generally true, and certainly not universally true, as you suggest. There's zero evidence for this, and no understanding of human nature.”

I believe it to be more often true than not. That’s because I do understand human nature.

Not What is Proven
"The science as I understand it suggests that gender is determined when the fetus undergoes a "hormone bath" in the womb. " I've read this study, and the science only applies to gender. Any other use of the actual data is pure blue sky conjecture.

Near the End?

Most likely.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=64769

Two gay people buying a car together is not quite equal to changing the definition of one of the foundations of all societies. I'm afraid that is a ridiculous argument.

If darwinism was true science, the parts would fit. Homosexuality is not a "variation of sex". It is a temptation from the enemy of our souls, who hopes to draw mankind into a a bondage from which it is difficult(but not impossible) to break free. In his hatred for God, he uses the most powerful tool he can-sex-to make us fall, thus perverting God's most wonderful creation.

Now you're just being silly.
"Homosexuals often have sex with someone of the opposite sex, especially in homophobic societies that discourage same-sex coupling." This qualifies as the most absurd statement you have made. Homosexuals have always had the option of not marrying persons of the other sex and most have exercised it. How brave of them to overcome their repugnance for the opposite sex! And how very unlikely. Your example is rarely true, not generally true, and certainly not universally true, as you suggest. There's zero evidence for this, and no understanding of human nature.

Robert AZ
Homosexual people don’t have children? Step away from the crack pipe! Homosexuals are as fertile as heterosexuals. Homosexuals often have sex with someone of the opposite sex, especially in homophobic societies that discourage same-sex coupling. Darwin may or may not have clues as to how homosexuality is perpetuated. How do two brunettes produce a blond child? I guess there’s dominant and recessive genes. Maybe that’s part of the explanation. Why does someone who is a twin rarely sire twins?

Does the explanation really matter? What difference does it make if it’s nature, nurture or complete unadulterated free will? If two adults want to marry, what right do you have to say they can’t? Your opinion? Your own personal feelings about homosexuality?

Homosexuality genetic?
"So explain to me how homosexuality is genetic."

The science as I understand it suggests that gender is determined when the fetus undergoes a "hormone bath" in the womb. That process is more complicated than the simple passing of traits via chromosomes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_o rientation

Bring on the Studies
"Morality and Christian don't necessarily go together and have for many, become mutually exclusive. Got it? " There are surely bad Christians, no doubt about it. But I'd like to see a study that says that practicing Christians are more likely to be criminal, alcoholic, or socially deviant than non-Christians. The Pew and Barna polls have always said exactly the opposite. Perhaps you have some scientific studies I am unaware of. Please share them.

Darwin and the Gene Pool
"No one’s asking Darwin to explain homosexuality" I am, Jeffrey. Explain how a genetic trait is handed down without the necessary genetic transmission of having children. And last time I heard, left handed people had children, which explains why there still are left handed people.

RE ...What you do, Not what you are
Robert, You miss the point(s).

The discussion should be about the fairness surrounding benefits afforded married vs. single people not Gay vs. str8 couples.

My creating a civil covenant will not address those issues. Even if gay marriage existed today there would continue to be a government supported financially beneficial bias toward married people.

Let me restate the other point you commented on. Morality and Christian don't necessarily go together and have for many, become mutually exclusive. Got it?





John Acton
“Only heterosexuality is natural, homosexuality is unnatural. Dawin would have an impossible time to explain within his theory of the survival of the fitnest.”

Homosexuality is perfectly natural. It’s just a variation of human sexuality. No one’s asking Darwin to explain homosexuality. It’s not necessary to, any more than it’s necessary to explain right- and left-handedness. Suffice to say, an adult should be able to enjoy the legal rights and obligations of marriage with another adult, as he chooses. Artificial limitations serve no legal or social purpose. From a legal standpoint, marriage is merely a contract. If two gay people got a joint car loan together, you wouldn’t care, would you?

Len
In America, HIV is almost exclusively a disease of homosexuals and IV drug users. Claims of heterosexual transmission can usually be proven false by looking for indicators of homosexual behavior in the health record.

I have no problem with civil covenants. You can create any contract of relationship you want. But to call it marriage and use the courts to coerce religious institutions to do the same, such as in the Ocean Grove case, is contrary to the First Amendment.

You say, "Not buying the emotional maturity thing you talk about, and as for "morality" and "Christians" it seems those qualities are getting harder to reconcile as mutually inclusive. " I assume you mean mutually exclusive, the opposite of what you said. Otherwise, it is a correct statement.

I'm So Confuuuused!
If homosexuality is genetically predetermined, it's caused by a gene, right? Genes are passed to the next generation by sex-- or so my mother told me, and Mom never lies. Homosexuals don't usually breed. So if homosexuality is genetic, it would have been bred out of the population millenia ago because it's contra-survival to the maximum possible extent.

So explain to me how homosexuality is genetic. Use reason and actual confirmable science. And remember, neatness counts.

RE ...What you do, Not what you are
What I do is work, pay taxes, live my life responsibly, volunteer in the community, enjoy life with extended family and friends, and my partner of 27 years, in a conservative (not politically) monogamous relationship.

Not buying the emotional maturity thing you talk about, and as for "morality" and "Christians" it seems those qualities are getting harder to reconcile as mutually inclusive.

If you don't know any, I can assure you there are plenty of moral folks out there that do not identify as Christian, and likewise plenty of irresponsible, attention seeking, demanding, adolescent str8 folks, with poor impulse control.

Sorry for your cousins death, as well as all who have died or been affected by AIDS. You do realize that its not just for gays anymore don't you?

But on to marriage! As far as I am concerned its not about the right to have yet another label to define myself with, but about having the financial and legal benefits that have been unfairly carved out for those with a marriage license.

Religious marriage is really only ceremonial, sacramental and and does not stand alone as valid without civil authority. You can have it, own it, call it what you will. What is called for is no "special rights" for married citizens that are not available for single "citizens" regardless or orientation.




Individual freedom, choice, responsibility, behavior, rights....seem to be missing when we talk couples /families (gay or str8) and marriage / domestic partnership.



Re: You can't fool Mother Nature
"I know a lot of heterosexuals who get real nasty if you mistake them for a homosexual. So they, too, seem to have a strong attachment to their sexuality as connected to their personal identity."

Only heterosexuality is natural, homosexuality is unnatural. Dawin would have an impossible time to explain within his theory of the survival of the fitnest.

Lies or Opinions
Your opinions are incorrect. This is just fine. That's what opinions are for. You think mine are incorrect. Also fine.

But your recent malicious bashing of Christians was just plain dishonest. If you hold an opinion from sheer malice with no proof whatsoever, it isn't an opinion any more. It's a lie.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"From the Christian perspective (which I believe still holds) jews and muslims will in fact be headed for hell. Therefore, limiting their influence on the children must be of utmost importance"

"Comment: I am a Christian. I have no definite answer for your statement personally. I do not agree with their faith, or tenets, but as to them heading for hell?"

All Moslems or Jews were NOT subject to the Spanish Inquisition, only those Moslems and Jews that pretended to be Chrisitians. This had more to with Civil governorance than religion, per se, as only Christians could inherit land, titles, etc. in Spain after the Moors were defeated. The Church got involved only after the civil authorities took this to extremes.

As for the final fate of anyone, Moslem, Jew, or Christian, only God knows for sure. Just ask the "Good Thief".

Robert in AZ
There's nothing dishonest in my statements. What you meant to say was, you don't agree with my observations, didn't you?

Have Some Fun, Jeffrey
Try to define a teacher who never teaches. Good luck.

Tired Old Lies, Jeffrey
We what we do, not what society labels us as. And your tired and insulting equation of black suffering with homosexuality is dishonest. Try it in the 'hood sometime and see where it gets you.

Robert in AZ
There’s nothing interesting about your “thesis.” It’s just self-serving. There’s no such thing as a homosexual?

Ok, there’s no such thing as a teacher, just someone who teaches for a living. There’s no such thing as a kleptomaniac, just someone with impulses to steal regularly. There’s no such thing as a conservative, just someone who has conservative points of view. And of course, there’s no such thing as a heterosexual, just someone who longs for someone of the opposite, but not same, sex.

From the summary of the Court’s opinion:
“Addressing the issue of immutability, the court found sexual orientation to be central to personal identity and that its alteration, if at all, could only be accomplished at the expense of significant damage to the individual’s sense of self.”

I know a lot of heterosexuals who get real nasty if you mistake them for a homosexual. So they, too, seem to have a strong attachment to their sexuality as connected to their personal identity. Lacking in maturity? I know several married heterosexuals similarly lacking. Yet they are permitted to marry anyway. It seems there’s no “maturity test” for marriage.

I guess Blacks were being overly pushing about demanding their civil rights, too.

It's What You Do, Not What You Are
Let me pose an interesting thesis. There is no such thing as a homosexual. There are people with homosexual desires, for whatever reason, genetic or otherwise, but no homosexuals.

There are people who engage in homosexual behavior. This is what we find wanting in emotional maturity and what most Christians consider to be morally wrong. I could be very violent. But I am not a thug. I sure could be. I have the inclination (so many idiots, so few baseball bats) and the ability (I'm large, still very strong, and a very skilled shot) but I do not act on it. Not ever.

We're not talking about what people are here, we're talking about what people do. And the emotional immaturity of homosexual behavior and its adolescent shrill demand to be affirmed (not tolerated) are behaviors that are negative for our society and for the individual.

I had a cousin about twenty years ago. He had a girlfriend, but was a very confused young man. A pastor counseled him to accept his homosexual side, which side was very ill defined and had more of the pathological than the real about it. He died a confused young man of AIDS. Good going, preach. He died because of his behavior not who he was.

Why include false attack on Mitt Romney?
Mitt Romney is one of few politicians who is completely devoted to his wife and family, with no hint of infidelity or moral weakness. He has always supported traditional marriage, in spite of the Mass. Supreme Court's rulings. Why this article attacks Romney so gratuitously and erroneously is incomprehensible to me. Why attack those who are on the same side of this critical social and moral issue? I guess the author has some other bias or political agenda that superseeds his desire to support marriage.

Find your own word


Words have meaning, and different words describe items or actions that are similar, but different.

They have already screwed up the usage of words like Qu*er and Gay, now go find your own word for two homosexuals who are committed to each other, love each other, and have performed a ceremony to advertise that union.

For example the word “Gay” is no longer useful in polite conversation between normal people, by that I mean people who do not have a certain birth defect.

That new word would also apply to any two or more people of whatever sex or relationship, who wish to live together, or at least be in constant association with each other, including the right to control healthcare, and inherit goods when death occurs, and other such things.

The dictionary says the following, so get your own words, and leave these alone.

Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife

Husband: a man joined in marriage to a woman

Wife: a woman joined in marriage to a man

If two men say they are married to each other, do they have a marriage? Answer No.

Two families pay money each month to live in a house, is it the same? No, one pays rent, the other pays a mortgage.

Two wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a bike, the other a motorcycle.

Two multi-wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a car, the other is a truck.

If a man and a woman are married to each other, do you have a marriage? Yes, of course.

Re: Change you can believe in
"Nature or nurture, homosexuals are who they are. Why change them? Or should we "change" left-handed people, too?"

Homosexuality is not the natural state of being for mankind. If it were, homosapiens would have long disappeared. Defining oneself by your sexual-orientation is not healthy, especially if that orientation is not normal. Homosexuality is no more natural than necrophilia, bestiality or pedophilia. Should we not try to change the pedophile or someone who prefers sex with animals or corpses? Well, the APA (American Psychiatric Association), the same outfit that delisted homosexuality in the early 1970s is about to do the same for pedophilia, so they must think that abnormal sexual orientation is just as "wholesome" as homosexuality.

A government that declares

acts of same-sex sodomy are equivalent to acts of procreation is an insane government.

Why lawyers want to promote same-sex sodomy can only be explained by the fact that law schools and admission to the bar requires complete and utter intellectual surrender to ignorance.

No government official in their right mind would consider acts of same-sex sodomy to be the equivalent of human coitus.

Citizens have no obligation to recognize laws that promote evil.

Re: Biology for Scientific Challenged
"I always found it funny how "science" is a four letter word on this site... "

I suppose depends of your sex orientation. For instance:

The Gluteus Maximus is not really a sex organ.

Re: Hemlock - Greek Religious Freedom
"Even 'enlightened' Athens killed Socrates."

Interestingly, Socrates was ordered to take his own life by the democratic authorities of Athens because he taught his students at the Academy that there was "logically" only one God, and not the pagan poly-theological gods of the Greeks.

One right - one wrong
I agree with Vermont and disagree with Iowa. It should be the legislatures and not the courts that make this decision.

Nutty stuff Andy
"The book he is referring to states that homosexuality can be directed and changed. If it can be changed, you are not born homosexual."

Nature or nurture, homosexuals are who they are. Why change them? Or should we "change" left-handed people, too?

Hmm...
...I at least have the humility to recognize I am not a geneticist and therefore have no business debating the science.

Just for you to consider, I've read a compelling article - that I can't find now :( - about pre-natal hormones, not genes, being the determining factor in sexual orientation. Check out the wiki for more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_o rientation

BTW the large cut and paste you gave us basically just affirms that homosexuality is not a disease. Not a bad start, but far from offering any cause.


Anderson, Anderson
I've got stuff on all your responses, but the one that jumps out to me is here:

"1. If hetero/homosexuality is a choice, do you recall choosing heterosexuality?

Comment: I did not need to. "

You've fessed up! You did not need to because there was no time to. It's like choosing to have blue eyes. It never came up for you to make a decision, because no decision is there to make.

paranoid mystic, an excerpt:
This is the doctor who removed homosexuality as a mental disorder form the APA in 1973:

Amazon.com: Ex-gays?: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation:
http://www.amazon.com/Ex-gays-Longitudinal-Religiously...

"Research in the controversial area of homosexuality is fraught with ideology and plagued by a dearth of science. This study has broken new ground in its adherence to objectivity and a scientific precision that can be replicated and expanded, and it opens new horizons for investigation. It is the kind of scientific research I had in mind when in the mid-1970s I introduced my successful resolution in the APA Council of Representatives that homosexuality is not a disease, but a complex constellation of factors that requires scientific investigation to further our understanding of its etiology, its many parameters and its subjectivity to change. I have waited over thirty years for this refreshing, penetrating study of an imperative, though controversial, human condition. This book is must-reading for psychotherapists and counselors, as well as academic psychologists studying human behavior and sexuality." -- Nicholas A. Cummings, Ph.D., SC.D., Former President, American Psychological Association; Distinguished Professor, University of Nevada, Reno; President, Cummings Foundation for Behavioral Health

The book he is referring to states that homosexuality can be directed and changed. If it can be changed, you are not born homosexual.

paranoidmystic some thoughts
You write:

This issue, like global warming, has to do with science that frankly neither you nor I can access directly. We can talk about genes all day, but we don't really *know.* I can quote this guy, you can quote that one. The two arguments against this statement that hold the most traction for me (and therefore I'm the most interested in hearing your take on):

Comment: Even hard core same sex activists that are researchers have admitted homosexuality does not appear to be solely genetic. It is a combination of factors. There is not a single case of the Mendelian model of inheritance being passed along in a homosexual case.

1. If hetero/homosexuality is a choice, do you recall choosing heterosexuality?

Comment: I did not need to. Man and woman were created for each other. That is the natural order of things. Homosexual behavior is exhibited throughout nature, but it is a behavior.

2. If hetero/homosexuality is a choice, why would anyone choose the more difficult, least accepted, more restricted option?

Comment: Very good question. And I have no answer.I had two cousins who made that choice. Both are dead from their choice.If my memory serves me correctly, so are another few hundred thousand. That alone should underscore the problems with the behavior.

As another rebuttal, what about other forms of being Other that are arguably choice-based. Such as being Jewish or Muslim during the Spanish Inquisition.

Comment: Irrelevant status. Religion is choice based, and everyone that has ever lived has not had life meet their expectations of fairness.

"From the Christian perspective (which I believe still holds) jews and muslims will in fact be headed for hell. Therefore, limiting their influence on the children must be of utmost importance"

Comment: I am a Christian. I have no definite answer for your statement personally. I do not agree with their faith, or tenets, but as to them heading for hell?

JMartin
“No one is saying to make homosexual behavior illegal, although it was in the not too distant past.”

But they are saying that same-sex marriage should be illegal. For those arguing the Christian perspective, and that seems to be most on TH.com, the basis for their belief lies in Biblical doctrine, saying marriage is between one man and one woman. My point was, the Bible also appears to dislike homosexuality generally. Therefore, does that require Christians to work to make homosexual behavior illegal? It’s a fair question to ask, though the bigger question is, why do Christians create this link between their faith beliefs, and what is legal or illegal in a secular society?

Your reliance on historical circumstances is weak-minded. Shall we abandon our search for a cure for cancer, since that awful disease has been around for so long?

“Conservatives are only asking that the status quo ante from time immemorial remain, =heterosexual marriage only, until you succeed in amending the federal constitution and/or the constitutions of the 50 states.”

Who gets to make this rule? Marriage is changing on a state by state basis. Surprisingly fast. Seems ok to me. Not really sure what your point is.

I'd just like to note...
...townhall won't let me type the word f@g.

The irony hasn't escaped me. It's like arguing over whether or not the esteemed black gentlemen may be allowed to use water fountain.

Cleaning up the language but clinging to the hateful behavior!

my observations
I seriously question the government being involved in marriage at all. I have had to pay higher taxes because of the marriage penalty for much of my adult life (because of the income levels of my wife and I -- some people no longer have a penalty). Few of my ancestors were legally married -- they were not members of the state church (the Church of Ireland) -- they were mostly Roman Catholic, some Presbyterian and some distant Quakers. Do people choose to be gay? Yes and no. I have chosen to view pornography in the past -- but I certainly could promise to never again watch it. Do people chose to be swingers or cheaters? Again, it is really semantics. I really do not care what adults do with each other.

Hi anderson
Thanks for your responses! You had many good ones, but I'd like to discuss this one:

"Homosexuals are not a persecuted other. That is so false and phony that it is laughable."

I just marvel that you could say such a thing. Honestly, growing up gay in our society is about the worst thing I could wish on a kid. For children, "that's gay" or "you're a f@g" pass as legitimate insults. In fact, Rush uses that kind humor all the time. It wouldn't be funny if the dominant culture hadn't condoned the hatred of this Other.

You also wrote:

"Race is in fact very different than homosexuality,etc that is a behavior."

This issue, like global warming, has to do with science that frankly neither you nor I can access directly. We can talk about genes all day, but we don't really *know.* I can quote this guy, you can quote that one. The two arguments against this statement that hold the most traction for me (and therefore I'm the most interested in hearing your take on):

1. If hetero/homosexuality is a choice, do you recall choosing heterosexuality?

2. If hetero/homosexuality is a choice, why would anyone choose the more difficult, least accepted, more restricted option?

As another rebuttal, what about other forms of being Other that are arguably choice-based. Such as being Jewish or Muslim during the Spanish Inquisition. From the Christian perspective (which I believe still holds) jews and muslims will in fact be headed for hell. Therefore, limiting their influence on the children must be of utmost importance.

So what keeps a Christian nation like the US from outlawing those choice-based forms of Otherness?

paranoid mystic here ya go
anderson, will you explain?
Hi anderson, you wrote:

"Same sex marriage is about redefining marriage to fit the demands of those who wish to impose behaviors on the rest of society that are simply not acceptable."

I fail to see that. I know men and women who love each other and wish to get married in a church. The state will not recognize that marriage, por que? So far as I can see, only because homosexuals are a persecuted Other.

Comment: No. Certain heterosexuals are also denied marriage for a variety of reasons. Homosexuals are not a persecuted other. That is so false and phony that it is laughable. That is ia statement of political ideology, not fact.

What is it that makes this issue differ from other civil rights issues? How is the Other of homosexuality any different from the Other of mixed-race marriages? In fact, interracial marriages were illegal in many states of the US until 1967, when it took the Supreme Court case Loving vs. Virginia (legislating from the bench, those rascals!)

Comment: Loving vs Virginia was about RACE. Race is in fact very different than homosexuality,etc that is a behavior. Every attempt to link it to genetics has failed. The use of race by the same sex crowd is to use race as a vehicle for same sex marriage and same sex demands. Even Blacks for the most part reject that outright.

In the end, if you really feel so passionate about marriage (and I don't mean you specifically but the political right generally), it seems your energy would be more wisely spent at keeping marriages you do approve of together and functional. \

Comment: I wish marriages could be kept together. Marriage has been demeaned, marginalized, and laughed at in the media for the last 30 years by special interest groups including the same sex lobby. The energies that are being focused are on the attempts to redefine marriage to something morally relative.


anderson, will you explain?
Hi anderson, you wrote:

"Same sex marriage is about redefining marriage to fit the demands of those who wish to impose behaviors on the rest of society that are simply not acceptable."

I fail to see that. I know men and women who love each other and wish to get married in a church. The state will not recognize that marriage, por que? So far as I can see, only because homosexuals are a persecuted Other.

What is it that makes this issue differ from other civil rights issues? How is the Other of homosexuality any different from the Other of mixed-race marriages? In fact, interracial marriages were illegal in many states of the US until 1967, when it took the Supreme Court case Loving vs. Virginia (legislating from the bench, those rascals!)

In the end, if you really feel so passionate about marriage (and I don't mean you specifically but the political right generally), it seems your energy would be more wisely spent at keeping marriages you do approve of together and functional.

paranoidmystic offers a mis-statement
paranoidmystic writes:

"The struggle for homosexual equality is no different from the struggles for equal rights pertaining to the handicapped, disabled, diseased, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, etc."

Comment: False. Same sex marriage is about redefining marriage to fit the demands of those who wish to impose behaviors on the rest of society that are simply not acceptable. Homosexuality is a behavior, and homosexuals have EVERY civil right any citizen does. To say different is a factual mis-statement

Same sex marriage is not about civil rights no matter how hard same sex activists try and link it to civil rights to try and sell it.

Homosexual values on display
Examples of same sex values

Here is an example of homosexual values in practice. If this is what society wishes to call normative and award marriage licenses for, people should view how 100,000 (SF Gate reported) homosexuals in San Francisco celebrated last year.

Take a run through them, and then tell me this is what you want coming to YOUR town soon. All wearing wedding rings. San Francisco PD had a recruiting booth set up at this fair.

http://zombietime.com/up_your_alley_2008/

But JMartin,
I appreciate your professorial tone, but you haven't addressed the issue I raised:

A cursory glance at human history reveals that majority groups demonize and subordinate the Other -- consistently.

The struggle for homosexual equality is no different from the struggles for equal rights pertaining to the handicapped, disabled, diseased, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, etc.

To Yoshi
I tried to post earlier ........... and it has not shown up on this thread....I am gay. No one chooses to be heterosexual or homosexual.

Best wishes to you and everyone else. Even those that are anti-gay.

paranoidmystic
"HUMANS HATE WHAT IS DIFFERENT UNTIL THEY FORCED TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND ACCEPT IT.

Period. Right now, those characteristics of other people that you hate"

Let's see, what's wrong with paranoidmystic's argumentation this time; let me count the ways.

First off, the prolonged caps are bad form in blogs; like screaming at someone who doesn't speak your language. Your comment is no stronger by 'shouting it;' I would say weaker, because it's like the 6th grader stomping his foot.

2nd, you throw down the word "period." How very sporting of you, to determine when the debate is over. Let's just say your "period" didn't work, more like a comma.

3rd, twice you say "hate." You must indeed be a mystic, to be able to read my (and everyone on this thread who disagrees with you) mind and heart. I for one don' hate any person. I do disagree with and disdain all liberal policies, especially those mandated by oligarchic judges.

No "period;" discussion still open; how liberal of me.

Two different subjects
I would assume English is not your native language.
How long you lived here in the USA?


yoshi writes:
talent scout
You first state marriage is not created by law and then state they should prosecuted under the law for subverting the law? Huh?
====================
I never came close to saying that, twit.

This is what I said about marriage, twit:
" Marriage is not created by law
Marriage is nothing more than the commitment of two persons to live as one, instituted in the Ceremony of Public Vows."


This is what I said about the judges, twit:

"This is such an extreme decision, these men are unqualified to sit in judgment of the Law.

In fact they should be prosecuted under the law for subverting the law"



JMARTIN
You wrote "How illiberal of you." about my use of the word retard and that's totally fair - I've been in that 6th grader internet mindset today over on a hip hop board.

But my point remains the same. I'm not using any property of math, but demonstrating the nature of mankind:

HUMANS HATE WHAT IS DIFFERENT UNTIL THEY FORCED TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND ACCEPT IT.

Period. Right now, those characteristics of other people that you hate even thought they harm no one? Sure enough, your kids will be embarrassed as heck that you hold those views.

Eddie had made the argument that since homo's have been hated forever there must be something actually wrong with them. I'm just pointing out they're actually in good company, historically.

Jeffrey
Alex1
"On the other hand, the Bible is explicit in its condemnation of homosexual behavior."

Should we make homosexual behavior illegal?"

Illogical; conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.

No one is saying to make homosexual behavior illegal, although it was in the not too distant past. Conservatives are only asking that the status quo ante from time immemorial remain, =heterosexual marriage only, until you succeed in amending the federal constitution and/or the constitutions of the 50 states.

Alex1
"On the other hand, the Bible is explicit in its condemnation of homosexual behavior."

Should we make homosexual behavior illegal?

talent scout
You first state marriage is not created by law and then state they should prosecuted under the law for subverting the law? Huh?

In this unanimous decision (read it - its fun) they recognize that in Iowa marriage is defined as a civil contract. Which is accurate. Marriage was first recognized by governing bodies and only later by religious organizations.

And when did marriages stop being performed in Churches and Synagogues? Oh wait - that hasn't stopped. And what is performed in Churches, Synagogues, parks, court houses, etc is a wedding ceremony - not a marriage. Only when you file your paperwork does that get recognized.

paranoidmystic
paranoidmystic
Location: CA
Reply # 38
Date: Apr 7, 2009 - 7:21 PM EST Eddie asks...
"If same-sex sodomy is not evil,
why has it been the subject of hatred and scorn throughout all history."

I would ask: if retards, cripples, women and minorities aren't evil... "

Mystic, it is you who by a syllogism, and by the transitive property of mathematical equality, are equating homosexuals with "retards, cripples, women and minorities." Sorry you feel that way.

BTW, last I checked, mentally handicapped folks don't appreciate being called "retards," and physically handicapped folks don't like being called "cripples." How illiberal of you.

While I am not in favor of...
...gay marriage as a springboard to polygamy, some seem to fear legalized polygamy more gay marriage despite the fact that we have a much more biblical precedent for polygamy than many are willing to admit.

We have an example of the Lord caught in the act of justifying plural marriage. Read 2 Samuel 12:7-11 and tell me who gave the message that Nathan gave to David. (That is in the Bible, folks.)

On the other hand, the Bible is explicit in its condemnation of homosexual behavior.

Marriage is not created by law
Marriage is nothing more than the commitment of two persons to live as one, instituted in the Ceremony of Public Vows.

Not that long ago all Marriage was preformed in Churches or Synagogues etc.

What is the need for some man to insult the billions of people who have married to call it "prejudice".

Does he expect all marrieds to repent and ask him for forgiveness of their sins?

This is such an extreme decision, these men are unqualified to sit in judgment of the Law.

In fact they should be prosecuted under the law for subverting the law

swampfox
"Now that the stigma of being homosexual is being removed everyone will choose to be homosexual. "

Please tell us of that special moment when you made the choice to be heterosexual? Did you hold a little party? Did you have a cake?

Eddie asks...
"If same-sex sodomy is not evil,
why has it been the subject of hatred and scorn throughout all history."

I would ask: if retards, cripples, women and minorities aren't evil...

If sex were only for procreation...
...why do we kiss, hold hands, write letters, compose songs?

Why not hit it and forget it like the animals?

If marriage is religious in nature, why not respect the right of churches who will grant homosexual marriages?

The River that flows backwards
Mississippi ran backwards during 1811-12 earthquakes.


"unanimous opinion in Varnum v. Brien, the Iowa Supreme Court says that real marriage is merely a form of “prejudice”"

Could be said only by those God has turned over to reprobate minds.

The impact of this sort of decision from a place obligated to uphold law is like trying to make a river run backwards.

And it may do that for a little while, until the laws of nature restore its natural path.

These judges have chosen to speak up to defend perversity is all.

Perverse men, madness owns them

Cavell's Got An Anti-Catholic Thing !

Try tellin' us about Muslims,Orthodox Christins,Orthodox Jews,etc. before you attempt to single out The Catholic Church for Your Personal Agenda, You Anti-Catholic Piece Of Garbage !

Gays are everywhere
Now that the stigma of being homosexual is being removed everyone will choose to be homosexual.

Coming soon!
Equal rights!

Exciting times we live in!

Cowalker, Jeffrey
It is used to be the infallible sign of a failed argument was to try to tar your debate partner with "Hitler" and "Nazi." Now, Cowalker et al toss their weak crup in the form of "Taliban." You know that is bogus. No Christian advocates any of the Sharia punishments for homosexuals.

You forget: it is you liberals who are attempting to change the constitution, and the Constitution, of this country. Fine, just do it by democratic means. The status quo since the beginning of the human race, and the beginning of the US, is hetero marriage. Don't like the Constitution? Amend it, as we did for women and blacks, which has made for a much better country. Not the dictatorial fiat of black-robed lawyers who are totally unreprestative of our society. Even in VT, it was only the legislatures of that ultra-leftist state, over the veto of the governor.

Jeffrey,

You ask: Who cares about some religious definition of marriage? Jack did, who asked the question to which i was responding. Please try to have your caretaker read more carefully to you.

As John Acton said, Greek democracy was not all it is cracked up to be. Slaves, women, and non-property owners were disenfranchised--wanna go back to that? Sparta 'exposed' babies to death. Even 'enlightened' Athens killed Socrates.

Multiple wives
A man could marry (literally "become the master of the woman") as often as he desired. In Genesis 4:19, Lamech became the first known polygamist when he took two wives. Subsequent men who took multiple wives included: Esau with 3 wives; Jacob: 2; Ashur: 2; Gideon: many; Elkanah: 2; David: many; Solomon: 700 wives of royal birth; Rehaboam: 3; Abijah: 14. Jehoram, Joash, Ahab, Jeholachin and Belshazzar also had multiple wives.

[Note that women never have more than one husband in the Bible, that I know of]

Source: religioustolerance.org

Jack
Actually, you're incorrect that the most common type of marriage in the Bible was multiple women married to one man. That was a common type of marriage among the patriarchs, but not as common as popularly supposed. Noah and his sons apparently only had one wife each. Abraham apparently only wanted one wife, Sarah, but then got nervous about her age and took a concubine (not marriage). Isaac only had one wife. Jacob was tricked into having two wives. As far as the Bible records, Joseph and his brothers only had one wife each.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. David's many wives resulted in their children going to war over his kingdom. Solomon's many wives led him off into idolatry.

As far as the Bible records, common people had one wife per man and that was required of the priesthood, if I remember correctly.

The Freaks are Warning in the Bullpen!
One thing we can all agree on, is that there is no shortage of freaks in our country.

And so with the progress being made by the Gays, the father who's banging his daughter and the Mom who's getting it from her son,will soon be out in the streets in their thongs...demanding their right to get married!

Bill O'Reilly will have a spokesman on from the "Father and Daughter Coitus Club"...sulking about how they're being treated as "second-class citizens" and that society used to think that "Blacks and Whites marrying was wrong too!"

The polygamists will have their supporters as well. And they will lay claim to: "Isn't it better for a orphaned child to have a loving home with four mothers rather than none at all?"

Yep, all the freaks will just be: "Consenting adults that want the same rights as everyone else!" And what about the Nudists - married or not - shouldn't they be able to walk down the mall butt-naked? Or are we going to "force our religious beliefs down their throats, too!"

Why don't these black-robed and babbling justice pretenders, just cut to the chase and destroy the institution of marriage altogether? I just don't have enough "fairness" in me or respect for so-called "Constitutional Rulings" to stomach a man groping his daughters butt on TV in celebration of: "Freak Pride Day".

And don't tell anyone, but "Pedophile Rights" are just right around the corner. I can just hear it now: "We give medals to soldiers who kill people and put people in jail for making love". Yes siree!

Excellent......Keep Going....
I hope all the states in the union pass off this travesty as "marriage". Go ahead, be my guest, slap the CREATOR of holy matrimony (marriage) right in the chops through progressive protests, judicial fiat and legislative "ayes"......lol...

In the meantime, I'm going to pull up a chair, pop some Orville Redenbacher's, grab a cold brewski, and watch the show as the "marriage" chips are being called in by that same "CREATOR.

And yes, Mr. Acton, I know what
happens to a population when the birthrate drops below 2+ per woman.

Sometimes leaving all activities to be regulated by the invisible hand of enlightened self-interest leads to results we don't like. But I don't think I'm ready to let the government mandate a minimum family size for non-Moslems.

The only way to make heterosexuals have more children is to outlaw contraceptives. That is a policy that is going to go exactly nowhere except maybe under the Taliban. And the funny part is, if you somehow did manage to outlaw contraceptives, I'd bet that recent scientific knowledge would be used to create technology that would allow couples to zero in on the 72 hours a month a woman is fertile with such incredible accuracy that the same end--no pregnancy--could be achieved. Where there is demand, supply soon follows.

If same-sex sodomy is not evil,

why has it been the subject of hatred and scorn throughout all history.

It does not take a genius to know that same-sex sodomites are taking something good and making it something evil.

Nothing beneficial comes from the practices of same-sex sodomy. Nothing good comes from thumbing one's nose at your Creator.

leo

it is not about sexual orientation, why cannot the same-sex sodomites get that through their heads?

It is about making sodomy the equivalent of procreation. That is what is insane.


RePeal The Federal DOMA

I believe that Gay couples should have all the same substantive rights, privileges, and advantages that straight couples have, including the 1000+ identified by the GAO. All those rights should be legally guaranteed for a gay couple willing to enter into a lifelong intimate relationship (or at least try to, just like hetero couples do).

But I don't see why that relationship has to be called a marriage. Oh, wait a minute, yes I do. The Federal Defense of Marriage Act, when you strip away all the legalese from it's essential core of hatred, says that all relationships between two people of the same gender are to be spat upon, no matter what you call that relationship.

This forces Gay People in search of equality under the law to seek it in the most in-your-face way possible, because that's the only way left: state-by-state recognition and legalization of Gay Marriage.

Uh, yes, Mr. Acton. Contraceptives
are only about sex. If sex is not happening, they are not needed. They are used by the married and the unmarried to prevent pregnancy. Ever since middle-class people got access to condoms and pessaries (the ancestor of the diaphragm), the birth rates of developed nations have dropped. The invention of the pill really gave the trend legs. Now sex happens a lot, just like it used to, but there are fewer pregnancies.

"'Same sex marriage will not have an impact on the birth rate in America or anywhere else.'

"So you must know a way that a unisex couple can procreate then."

Huh?

Do you think that if same sex marriage is prohibited that all gay people (at most 10% of any population) will stop having sexual relationships with people of the same sex and will marry people of the opposite sex and have families? Do you also think that the prohibition of same sex marriage will change the behavior of heterosexual couples, prompting them to have more children? The most punitive punishment of gay people might partially reduce the amount of gay sex going on. It wouldn't make them marry and have children, nor would it make heterosexual couples have more children.

The most likely way to encourage larger families in America would be to provide free stellar child care and free college educations. In other words, if you were a tax payer, you'd be subsidizing other people's children, so you might as well take advantage of it and have some of your own.

Knight
lies for a living.

He has earned his livelihood by spreading lies about gays for decades. I find his hysteria amusing... I just hope that some day he will face equal prejudice, fear and loathing, equal venom he's spread every day of his life. I hop he gets treated precisely the way he wants gays to be treated in society.

I wish him all the pain he's been advocating for gays to suffer.

Re: It didn't help!
"When infant and child survival rates improve, and people have the means to control family size without having to sacrifice sexual activity, they do it."

So you admit it - it is only about sex. But ex is a natural function, except with homosexuals.

"Same sex marriage will not have an impact on the birth rate in America or anywhere else."

So you must know a way that a unisex couple can procreate then.

BTW, why are Holland's Moslems out procreating the natives?

Do you know what happens to a population when the birthrate drops below 2+ per woman?

Re: Theology for Biblically Challenged
"The Bible envisions monarchy or theocracy as the norm all the way through, without 'decadent' Greece deomcracy would not exist."

Actually God granted the Israelites a king because He yeilded to their mass request for same, showing that He was a rather democratic God, IMMHO. Of course, God knew that having a king was not the way to go, as the people of Israel later learned.

Birth rates have been decreasing
for a hundred years. And now they are decreasing in developing nations as well as developed nations.

John Acton says: "Look at the poulation growth rates in those fashionable European countries that have tried same-sex marriage."

Sorry, there is no connection. When infant and child survival rates improve, and people have the means to control family size without having to sacrifice sexual activity, they do it. And they're smart enough to see that limited family resources can be more effectively concentrated on fewer children to promote their welfare in a society that no longer has much need for manual labor. Now whether this could turn out to be bad for society as a whole is another question. Certainly although it was good for individual corporations to outsource work, it hasn't been good for the majority of American workers.

Same sex marriage will not have an impact on the birth rate in America or anywhere else.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"'Decadent' Greece invented democracy, a Greek word which nowhere appears in the Bible."

Except the United States is Republic and specifically not a "Democracy", as are constitutionally all the States. The concept of Republic comes from "decadent Rome". However, Rome didn't become decadent until after the Republic was lost, and it was rulers, such the Emperors Nero, Hadrian, Commodus, and Elagabalus debauched themselves and Roman society. Nero and Elagabalus even married one of their male lovers, a "Freedom" granted to only these "god-emperors" and not permitted mere Roman citizens.

Let's all go back in time
Let's all go back in time to the good old days when being homosexual was tantamount to being worse than a murderer.

Such a great contrast
In Vermont they used the democratic process.

In Iowa they trampled the law and Constitution.

Even if both are mistakes, mistakes made by Democratic Process are typically reversible by the same process unless you've done something truly foolish - like voted away your liberties as individuals.

JMartin, You're in such good company
"For Catholics and other conservative Christians, my favorite line in the Catholic Catechism #1903 paraphrasing: Any 'law' which contradicts divine law is no law."

That's exactly how the Taliban feels about the laws of Pakistan. There are laws in Pakistan that prohibit the public flogging teenagers suspected of adulterous sex, but they can't be "real" laws, because they contradict divine law--as interpreted by the Taliban.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/04/taliban-floggin g-inquiry-pakistan


Re: Government Intervention
"Even if heterosexual marriages are healthiest for societies that doesn't mean the state has a right to promote them over anything else. Otherwise it isn't free."

Where did you ever get that idea? Societal need to promote the birth of children and their most healthy and positive up-bringing is the "compelling government reason" that marriage, going back throughout human history has been between men and women. Homosexual procreation is a oxymoron. Why is this important? Well, ask those Generation-Nexters who will supporting 3 Social Security recipients EACH. Look at the poulation growth rates in those fashionable European countries that have tried same-sex marriage. With their Moslems immigrants out-procreating them by more 5 to 1, it wont be long before they all are just like Iran.

"You don't like it? Move to Iran."

If you don't like, move the Netherlands - in 25 years it will be just like Iran.

CHARLES BRONSON
WHERE IS HE AT WHEN YOU NEED HIM?

Re: Most despotic branch of government
"One more thing, this is a FREE SOCIETY Robert."

No, it a society of laws. That great American Civil Libertarian, Thomas Jefferson thought the most humane and equitable way to handle the "Abominable and Detestable Crime Against Nature" in Virginia in 1779 was "if a man, by castration, if a woman, by cutting thro' the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half diameter at the least". While less server than the previous "capital" offence, I dare say it was effective. Today we celebrate the same crime against Nature as some groteque "constitutional right".

Gays are evil, it's just common sense
Women don't have the right to refuse sex with their husbands, it's just common sense.
Blacks are genetically inferior, it's just common sense.
Children will grow up unruly if not regularly beaten, it's just common sense.
The sun revolves around the earth, it's just common sense.
Evolution is bunk, it's just common sense.
Government will descend into anarchy without a monarchy, it's just common sense.
The US cannot survive economically without slavery, it's just common sense.
Humans are meant to live in caves, it's just common sense.

Thanks God someone is willing to challenge common sense every once in a while.

"Decadent" Greece- lol
Here's the best part of this article to me: the reference to "decadent" Greece and Rome.
"Decadent" Greece invented democracy, a Greek word which nowhere appears in the Bible. The Bible envisions monarchy or theocracy as the norm all the way through, without "decadent" Greece deomcracy would not exist.

If it were all about nothing
the ACLU, NAMBLA, GLBT, and like groups would not be all mobilized to change the definition of society which has held pretty much intact for literary millennia.

JMartin says:
“The word 'marriage' has a definition;; it is the permanent public commitment of one man and one woman.”

Permanent? Have you ever heard of divorce? Public? Not everyone has a wedding; some people just go to the justice of the peace.

“You mention "loving homosexuals" should have this 'right.' Why should they be "loving?" Who will prove that they love each other--you, Judge Jack? So it's not based on love. Love as you describe it is an emotion, and emotions fade.”

Have you ever heard of a heterosexual couple say that they’re not in love but that they’re going to get married anyway? (presumably to keep the very foundations of society in tact LOL). In my experience, I’ve never heard of a marriage consummated without love. Except maybe in the case of unplanned pregnancy.

“The authoritative texts in the Bible regarding marriage are in Genesis, where God says that [one] man shall leave his parents and cleave to [one] woman, and in the gospels, where Jesus quotes those verses, and makes that doctrine His own.”

Who cares about some religious definition of marriage? The legal definition is much more important.

Very funny
I think this is hilarious, and a non-issue for anyone outside of gays involved and the far Right wing.

For the overwhelming of people (hetero and not too political one way or the other) this is much ado about nothing.

Jack=wrong
Jack,

The word 'marriage' has a definition;; it is the permanent public commitment of one man and one woman.

You and yours are trying to change that definition, and the laws that follow from it; fine. But recognize that the burden of proof is on your side, when the weight of every human culture and US history is against you. That means it shouldn't be just a few liberal judges. Even ultra lib CA didn't agree with you.

You mention "loving homosexuals" should have this 'right.' Why should they be "loving?" Who will prove that they love each other--you, Judge Jack? So it's not based on love. Love as you describe it is an emotion, and emotions fade.

The authoritative texts in the Bible regarding marriage are in Genesis, where God says that [one] man shall leave his parents and cleave to [one] woman, and in the gospels, where Jesus quotes those verses, and makes that doctrine His own.

Jeramy
This article just was published about 5 minutes ago on my TH, hence so few comments.

Homosexual marriage =square circle.

For Catholics and other conservative Christians, my favorite line in the Catholic Catechism #1903 paraphrasing: Any 'law' which contradicts divine law is no law.

Only line on this article with which i disagree is Knight's jab at Mitt Romney. Romney is as about as conservative a person as anyone who could possibly be elected in this country. His conservatism extended to reluctantly obeying the law in our godforsaken commonwealth. Some of the things he did in this bolshevik bastion were for the good end of being elected. Is Romney perfect? NO, but I think he would have done much better than McCain in the general election, and possibly even beaten Obama. We conservatives love to shoot each other in the same lifeboat.

Wow, how radical can you get?
Robert, you're the third person who has written about this today and you're making the same bull-headed arguments that the others made. Did you even READ the wording of the decision? It isn't defining marriage as a form of prejudice. Marrige on a state level is a union between two people. Loving heterosexuals have that right and it shouldn't be denied to loving homosexuals. To deny them a right is to be prejudice.

And have you actually read the bible? The most common marriage in that book is multiple women to one man. It's about as pro-monogamy as a Motley Crue video. Don't use god in this argument because this is a secular nation. The bible isn't the law.

One more thing, this is a FREE SOCIETY Robert. Even if heterosexual marriages are healthiest for societies that doesn't mean the state has a right to promote them over anything else. Otherwise it isn't free. You don't like it? Move to Iran. I hear they have no homosexuals there and their society is just SO sophisticated with public beheadings and state sanctioned lynchings.

just a thought
I always found it funny how "science" is a four letter word on this site... I also find it funny that no one has even cared to comment on here yet
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