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Tuesday, February 12, 2008
Paul  Edwards :: Townhall.com Columnist
Defining Evangelicalism Down
by Paul Edwards
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The Religious Left is successfully redefining what it means to be a conservative evangelical by misrepresenting what it means to be a conservative evangelical. In a recent conference call hosted by Faith in Public Life, one of the emerging voices of the Religious Left, Dr. Joel Hunter, said:

There’s also a change in the voices that are defining what is conservative now, and what is evangelical. In the past couple of decades you’ve had some very loud voices on both sides – hard right, hard left – and when those were the only choices, then of course many evangelicals are going to go with the hard right because, well, that’s kind of where we mostly are. Now there are many more voices that are expanding the agenda, and so those people that have always had kind of a holistic approach, rather than just a one or two issue approach, are now feeling permission and given permission to be more nuanced and more sophisticated in their approach, rather than just going in a very bifurcated system. And so, what you’re hearing now is that the old voices that appointed themselves as the definers of what was evangelical or what was conservative are not holding sway with the majority of evangelicals anymore.

By convincing America that conservative evangelicals are concerned only with two issues, stopping abortion and preserving traditional marriage, these new voices of evangelicalism are effectively making the case that conservative evangelicals ignore poverty, HIV/AIDS, and the environment. The history of evangelicalism tells a different story.

Evangelicals have set the standard throughout history for social action which continues into the present through numerous humanitarian relief organizations. The Association of Evangelical Relief and Development Organizations claim 64 such organizations as members, including World Vision, Compassion International, Samaritan’s Purse, and Mercy Ships.

One of the largest humanitarian relief organizations in the world is the Salvation Army. It defines its commitment to social services as “…an outward visible expression of the Army's strong religious principles.” Those social services include disaster relief, services for the aging, AIDS education, medical facilities, and shelters for battered women. The Salvation Army impacts 30 million people a year in the United States alone. The founder of the Salvation Army, William Booth, was a Methodist minister. On its website the Salvation Army defines itself as an “evangelical group.”

To these readily recognizable evangelical organizations add the innumerable evangelical churches across America that in very quiet and unrecognized ways minister to the needs of the poor and suffering every day. In my own community a local evangelical church runs the oldest and largest homeless shelter in our county. Grace Gospel Fellowship in Pontiac, Michigan serves 127,000 meals a year, provides rehabilitation services and housing for drug addicts and single mothers, and creates jobs. It accomplishes its mission without one dime of government funding, and is “dedicated to recovery through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

The Religious Left’s appeal for the Religious Right to “broaden its agenda” to include poverty, HIV/AIDS, and the environment ignores the fact that conservative evangelicals have always had a strong commitment to these issues. So if conservative evangelicals are already leading the efforts to relieve poverty and disease, what’s behind the call to “broaden the agenda”? Another agenda altogether.

What’s really happening here is an attempt by the Left to define evangelicalism down by moving it away from its emphasis on the power of the gospel to change lives. The church’s ability to affect social and cultural change, bringing relief to the poor and suffering, is rooted first and foremost in its commitment to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and what the gospel says about the condition of man in sin which results in the symptoms of poverty and disease.

The Religious Left invalidates the conservative evangelical commitment to humanitarian relief because we are achieving our ends in the name of Jesus Christ through the gospel, without the assistance of government funding. The fundamental tenant of modern liberalism is that a government program funded by redistributed wealth is the preferred method of humanitarian relief rather than what the church is accomplishing by faith through compassionate hearts.

The new voices of the Religious Left – Rick Warren,  Joel Hunter, Tony Campolo, Jim Wallis, et al – are defining down what it means to be an evangelical by making the symptoms of man’s sin (poverty, disease, etc.) a priority rather than addressing the cause of those symptoms (sin) and the cure found in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The argument for this reprioritizing is a convincing one, suggesting the new priorities for evangelicals ought to be determined by asking, “How would Jesus respond to (fill in your favorite social cause here)?” The implied answer is that Jesus would be more concerned about the treatment of the poor (especially illegal immigrants) and, at best, neutral on the questions of abortion and homosexual marriage because Jesus never spoke against abortion or homosexual marriage.

These new voices of evangelicalism wear the label “red letter Christians,” but they are in reality “white space Christians,” determining Jesus’ view of abortion and homosexual marriage by focusing on what he didn’t say rather than on what he did say. In Matthew 5 Jesus upholds the standard of the Mosaic Law, which is clear in its call for punishing anyone responsible for killing a child in the womb (Exodus 21:22-25). When Jesus wanted to illustrate true greatness, he set a child in the midst of the disciples and said, “Of such is the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 19:14). In Matthew 19 Jesus clearly affirmed that marriage is between one man and one woman by validating the story of Adam and Eve, holding it up as the standard for marriage. As for the question of how Jesus would respond to illegal immigrants, I’m pretty sure he would tell them to obey the law (cf. Matthew 22:21).

The new voices of evangelicalism sound eerily similar to the old voices of the social gospel movement who moved their churches away from the priority of the gospel in the early 20th Century, focusing instead on positive thinking and welfare as a solution to social ills. The result was empty pews and even emptier hearts. I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, then I’ll get down on my knees and pray we don’t get fooled again (with apologies to Pete Townshend).

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About The Author

Paul Edwards is the host of The Paul Edward Program and a pastor. His program is heard daily on WLQV in Detroit and on godandculture.com

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Paul
Excellent analysis of what is really going on. Thanks.

What
Rick Warren and company, as well as those the author cites as defining evangelicalism down appeal to those who want their ears tickled. There's nothing about the Cross or the Atonement, what it is is marketing with a Christian label. It's not orthodox Christianity at all. Paul speaks of these kinds of preachers in Galatians 1:8,9,10.
The Bible also says something about professing themselves to be wise they have become fools.

"The Religious Left"
While no fan of them, I do think that at times they do have some of a point. One can only look at the rise of Mike Huckabee, and see that about the only reason older evangelicals support him is because he's pro-life. There's merit to that position, but one cannot say it doesn't exist.

There's also the fact that when it comes to younger Evangelicals, they are more involved in poverty outreach than their elders ever were. The great Evangelical leaders such as Wilberforce are not present in the likes of Falwell and Robertson. Indeed, evangelicals stayed out of matters temporal until Roe v. Wade pretty much after the Scopes Trial. While there are indeed other outreach groups, those groups aren't front and center in the activities of most Evangelicals. (Also because in certain corners of Evangelicalism, they follow the "health and wealth" gospel movements.)

And I doubt the Salvation Army could be called "evangelical" if you mean that they share the same values and politics as a Dr. Dobson. But this brings us to a confusing question. "Just what is an Evangelical?"

Tea Party
Very well said!!!

Gospel of Robin Hood
Let us use the government to do Gods work, then we can dream up all sorts of games and entertainment to keep the congregation from going to sleep.

Gospel?
How true. Some think that government is the answer to all the worlds evils and unfortunately evangelicals like Warren have jumped in the contest. But if we read the other scriptures that they don't quote we will see God lays out a different plan of government. First of all God's government starts with the individual. Each person has to govern themselves. A good book to understand God's way is God and Government by Gary Demar. Then we see scriptures like, "If a man doesn't work he doesn't eat". Then we all know scriptures of sexual boundries, and how the sufferings of mankind is because of various sins. Yet to deal with many of these problems, we do have to deal with the cause of the problems not the symptoms or they will always get worse not better. As we know almost all poverty in the US are unmarried women with children. Broken families unfortunatly will suffer.
To give up personal responsibility from every person and lay it in the hands of government is not anything about following Christ. That is no gospel message. But, that is the path some evangelicals are on.
And Rick Warren is not going to bring PEACE to the world, no matter how much he thinks he is. Jesus Christ is the only one that can fill that role. After all HE is the Prince of Peace, not Rick.
Huckabee has some of those ideas with his populist message of government taking care of the individual and their needs. That is why he is not conservative on everything.

well
The church today is a mess. Rick Warren is a deceiver who tries to mix new age practices of other religions in his teaching.

James Dobson abandons the word of God for psychology which the founding fathers of that poney hated Christ.

So what does that tell you? Christians are easily mislead. Sadly so.

Mike Huckabee is a liar. He misrepresents himself. If you look closely at what he did, you will see a very bad liberal governorship in Arkansas. He makes McCain look conservative.

I am sick of the Pandering

A taste of their own medicine
I say, if the evangelicals are being defined down by being misrepresented, it's a taste of their own medicine. They use strawman attacks on Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Catholics all the time. Huckabee can go on national television and spread lies about the Mormons with a straight face, and then expect the evangelicals to fall in line to vote for him, and the morons do just that. How can we expect such a willfully ignorant man to understand and believe border and national security issues? If he is such a liar already, what will happen to him as president?

I may not vote this time around.

These left leaning,
social change churches remind me of the scripture "Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof".
These people have more faith in their own abilities and righteousness than they do in God's word and redemption.

This explains...
...why conservatives are diminishing and their is a new conservative emerging. I can't understand why liberal evangelical Christians can't just defect to the democratic party instead of diluting the republican party with their compassion. Instead they seem to want to be regarded as conservatives even though they are not.

I don't know if this bleeding heart phenomenon is the result of a public school system that functioned with parental authority, unchecked for so many years, indoctrinating children to not be judgmental. Now we have a country full of people who can't distinguish between right and wrong, and Christians are included. Everyone is afraid to tell someone their choices are bad.

Jesus didn't only take care of the physical needs of people ie: healing, and feeding. He forgave sins. You can't forgive sins unless sin exists. Sins can't be forgiven unless a person knows they've sinned and they repent. Jesus sometimes faced very sick people and the first thing he said was, "Your sins are forgiven". Put that in a modern context...Jesus meets an AIDS patient brought to him by four devoted friends, who lower him through the roof. Jesus looks at the person with AIDS and says, "Your sins are forgiven." Would their response be, "What sin?"


Preachers of secularism…

Mr. Edwards, thank you for making this clear statement. Our culture depends on the church preaching a clear gospel message of redemption in Christ Jesus. The tendency of the culture is always towards corruption. If the church neglects its primary role then it becomes like the culture.

There is no lack of the preachers of secularism. They preach their atheism and their socialism as if there were nothing else. But how did we get here? On what foundation do we stand?

Western thought and culture was built on the first principles of liberty: the rule of law based on Biblical absolutes and the principles of justice; the sanctity of personal property including conscience, life and the fruits of labor. The greatest principle of all is redemption; the belief that a free church is essential to the maintenance of a free state. Political liberty proceeds from inward liberty of the heart, all depends on the ability of men to self-govern.

If freedom depends on these things, then what do we expect from the gospel of the secularists? What has their gospel wrought? All their ways lead to tyranny.

The socialist robs us of our property in the vain hope that my property will provide security for another man, rather than the principle that given opportunity each man is to provide for himself. He wants to fulfill the benevolence role of the church.

The atheist is no longer content to live in the freedom of Western culture. He has become an evangelist with the goal of tearing down the foundations. As the culture has moved away from Biblical theism, the principles of self-government give way to lawlessness.

Our forms of government will not stand apart from the spirit that inspired them. Will the church return again to its first love and renew the first things of its authority, of its role and of its gospel?

Termites Among Us
Agnostic liberals are like termites gnawing at the foundation of our culture--Christianity. The problem is once they have destroyed our inherited wisdom from Christ they unleash the appetites and desires of would-be deities crowned with implacable, totalitarain state power. Atheistic do-gooders always end up killing people, cf. Comrade Stalin and Chairman Mao.

Doing it quietly
is the reason so many clanging gongs and tinkling cymbals claim we are not doing it at all.

In Matthew Chapter 6 and in James Chapter 2 the way to evangelize -- by setting an example that makes people ask *What makes you different from the Government Hordes?* Jesus and James both emphasize that you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner (both the convict and those prisoned by ill health, old age, depression and isolation), welcome the stranger and care for those who have no recourse, because in each of these you see your Lord. And you are to do it quietly, as your Father who sees in secret will reward you in secret. DO NOT BLOW A TRUMPET WHEN YOU GIVE ALMS, Jesus says right there in black and white. DO NOT PRAY ON STREET CORNERS SO PEOPLE WILL SEE HOW PIOUS YOU ARE!

And how do we do this? He gives us the story of the Good Samaritan -- who used his own money and ministered to the man who was attacked by Victims of Exclusion, took him to a place he could be looked after, promised to pay any overs when he returned, out of his own pocket, AND THEN WENT ABOUT HIS BUSINESS. We are required to help the need. We are not required to support the needy forever and put them on our Board of Directors.

And whn they ask why we do these things, we witness to our Lord. Soup, soap and salvation. A good combination to a true Evangel.

Check out Oprah's "new" teachings
She's offering a Course on Miracles - a New Age, self-actualizing contortions of supposed revelations to some twit who has received new instructions from Jesus that invalidate the teaching of the Bible.

Oprah takes all the latest fads - good bad or indifferent and spreads them like wildfire with her huge slavish audience.

No wonder she supports BO and a lot of her viewers do also. Why think for yourself when everything these two say will make you feel good.

Nanny State, here we come.

Churches are failing...or falling
I look at the rise of Warren's, Hunter's, Osteen's etc. as a failure of churches and church leaders not really preaching the Gospel at all. Sin is rarely mentioned and when it is it becomes a self-help (humanist) approach in overcoming sin...Mega-churches appeal has begun to affect the small church in ways of church practice and what is preached. I have seen it in my small church after I moved back to the area after a 6 year absence. Amazing transformation in 6 years and for the worse.
Result is a more liberal, humanist, government-help approach in solving social issues. More and more "evangelicals" are looking to government for solutions all the while denying what is really sin and harmful to us individually and as a nation. Sadly too many people are only inferring Jesus' message on everything instead of studying and praying on what His message is.

Look to Jesus and hear His words!

Theo-Cons are ''Jimmy Carter Democrats''
--
Religious conservatives (Theo-Cons) have been infesting government in these United States since the days of the "Great Awakenings" of the 18th and 19th Centuries.

This peculiarity - the reliance of Christian evangelicals upon the armed thuggery of secular government to *FORCE* prohibition and other supposedly "virtuous" behaviors on their neighbors (while using taxes collected at gunpoint to fund the relief of poverty and other "charitable" endeavors) - has been the utter damnation of politically active American religious whackjobs no matter what party they nominally claim to support.

The Christian "social conservatives" who presently nest in the Republican Party have been condemned by lifelong GOP activist Victor Gold (author of last year's book *Invasion of the Party Snatchers*) as "Jimmy Carter Democrats," who had been originally seduced into supporting the Malaise Maker back in the '70s, and who stumbled over to the other side of the aisle when they realized that they were making common cause with (*GASP!*) pot-smoking polymorphously perverse secularists.

At least they could count on Republicans to wear jackets and ties and *look* respectable.

Even if that included people like Mark Foley and Larry Craig.

The Theo-Cons are hardly what anyone could call "real conservatives."

In America, genuine conservatism holds for the sharply defined limitation of government, bound "...down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."

The Theo-Con, by contrast, is happy with the growth of government power and intrusiveness - even to the point of creating a vicious tyranny - as long as it serves what he views as a "Godly" purpose.

Savvy "Nehemiah Scudder," anyone?

--

Flexing Southern Muscle
When Mitt Romney's campaign was in full swing posts 'exposing' the Mormons clogged the campaign blogs and comments. Anti-Mormon messages morphed out of nowhere like mushrooms after a rain storm. LDS authorities seemed astonished at the intensity of the criticism...

Read the entire article at:

http://mittromney.townhall.com



Defining Evangelicalism Down
The definition of "Christian" has lost its ability to define who "is" and who "is" not. This is because the church at large, red letter and white space, has promoted a "Christianity" the does not need the presence or power of God. Pull out all of your Christianity Today magazines, get a highlighter,look at the "strategies" for God, and see how often you see anything that specifically DEPENDS upon the power of God. Almost zilch. Instead of being a promoter of evangelicalism, CT is an indictment of its impotence. Rick Warren and his group, have simply substituted a new trinity - government -knowledge(technology/education)- money. This UNholy trinity has made promises of paradise for 80 years, but the gulf between promise and fulfilment simply grows wider. What is their answer? Mo' government, Mo' education, Mo' money.
The only challenge to this must be a "Christianity" that DEPENDS on the power of God.
JDR

Evangelical tar baby
When Jerry Falwell formed the Moral Majority in 1979 and the evangelicals jumped on board - they defined themselves as shallow, fearful, anti-faith, hate mongers. They asked for this caricature, now they can live with it.....
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/02/07/evangelicals-republic ans-two-tar-babies/

NIce One Paul
Evangelicals are absolutely the largest social safety net in the World! Just a small glimpse of it was available during Katrina. The National Guard nor Fema was available immediately after the storm, but Evangelicals were there in force handing out the necessary needs like water food blankets etc... How quickly we forget the Trucks loaded with supplies rolling in just after the storm, not from the Gov't but from Evangelical Organizations. Americans need to wake up and look at it without the rose colored glasses. Evangelicals are just not shouting how much they help the poor,etc. from the roof tops but they are always there to help their fellow man.

I say Amen, to this pointed article.
Evangelical as a identifying name is very broad in "Christianity", it can include "born-again",(of which I classify myself),expreiencing the new birth with repentance from sin and placing faith in Christ alone, having that presonal relationship. It can also include those who belong to a "christian church", and may not have God's spirit in their lives, but are trusting their church or "good works" for their religion. This is the great divide in evangelicalism today, and has created blurring to the world! But anyone can know the truth,find it, and live it, by just opening the scriptures and following it! When truth is embraced in Christ, and His gospel is the priority, as the writer noted, physical needs will be attended to, but the greatest spritiual need will be the priority, as Christ himself said" I CAME to SEEK and to SAVE that which was lost".

Dumbing Down Evangelicalism
As a Pastor, you should know better. You are not only incorrect in your analysis, but you are also grieving God.

1 Cor. 1:10 I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose.

I'll be praying for you that God will speak to your heart and forgive you your prideful sin.

Warren Warrior
As a Pastor, you should know better than to use a verse of the Bible to suggest that Edwards is somehow spreading disharmony and disunity.

Worse is you accuse of Edwards of sin. How do you know what is in his heart? What evidence do you have that Edward's is prideful?

Jesus calls us not to judge a brother's heart. I am only asking why it's OK for you to judge him based on this article?

Very disappointing, Pastor.

I posted once already and it's leaders like you that are dividing the Church.

Warren Warrior...part two
"As a Pastor, you should know better than to use a verse of the Bible to suggest that Edwards is somehow spreading disharmony and disunity."

Clearing up my above comment. Almost anybody can use a verse to argue a point or accuse somebody of doing something wrong. But the verse you quoted has to do with what is happening within the Church. Sure this could be used had Edwards attacked the whole Church as being evil without giving evidence, but the article was well thought out and quoted scripture as to prove how the left interprets Scripture without really understanding Scripture themselves...superficiality at its best!

Perfect
Finally, the perfect opportunity to bring this up.

Would someone please explain what in the omniprestent Strunk and White is up with the banner ad for FUSE appearing on the TH website?! I mean, are you serious?

If you don't know what I'm talking about, go back to the homepage and click on it.

Not Surprised
Good article. Enjoyed it, and it is true. Believers, however should not at all be surprised. Even a cursory study of the ages of the church outlined in Revelation, tells us that this is exactically what the last church would look like. Laodicea--neither cold nor hot. Rich with earthly wealth, and too proud to rely on faith. Empty works done from empty flesh.
All the individual believer can do is ensure they are walking in Gods perfect will through faith in Jesus Christ, and are proclaiming the gospel as they have been commanded.

Partially True
Edwards wrote:

"Evangelicals have set the standard throughout history for social action which continues into the present through numerous humanitarian relief organizations."

Yes, well, that and making sure none of them darn Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or Catholics, get elected to anything. Wouldn't want them actually being full partners in society.

Christians and conservatism
A little clarification is needed. Christianity is the religious arm of political conservatism. It provides transcendental justification for conservative politics. The tenets of Christianity and conservatism are interwoven to such an extent that disentanglement is impossible. Accordingly, the teachings of Christianity should be the driving moral force in political conservatism. It follows, then, that no Christians can be liberals and no liberals can be Christians.

kmtierney said:
"The great Evangelical leaders such as "Wilberforce are not present in the likes of Falwell and Robertson.... While there are indeed other outreach groups, those groups aren't front and center in the activities of most Evangelicals."

This is PRECISELY the kind of ignorance the main article is addressing. I'm not a fan of Robertson but his organization is very much involved in charitable ministries. Even a cursory education about the REAL Jerry Falwell rather than the caricature promoted by leftists in the press will show a guy who presided over numerous charitable activities including a home for unwed mothers.

"And I doubt the Salvation Army could be called "evangelical" if you mean that they share the same values and politics as a Dr. Dobson."

All you have to do is read their own info. Some is on their website. They are primarily conservative Christian volunteers doing Christ's bidding. Christ NEVER advocated that Christians should use the power of gov't to confiscate one person's wealth against their will and then give it to an unrepentant person as an "entitlement". NEVER!

"But this brings us to a confusing question. "Just what is an Evangelical?""

Not confusing at all... except for the obvious attempts to confuse it. An evangelist is one that takes the gospel of Christ to the world. The primary thing must always be the primary thing- the salvation of the eternal soul. Jesus even said that helping the poor wasn't a priority when Judas protested the use of precious spices and ointments to annoint Jesus. He said the poor would be with them always...

Lies?
"Huckabee can go on national television and spread lies about the Mormons with a straight face, and then expect the evangelicals to fall in line to vote for him, and the morons do just that."

Please name the lie.

If you are saying that Mormons do not believe that men can become gods then you are simply ignorant of what they teach. I have seen video of their head guys saying precisely that and that God the Father is nothing more than an exalted man.

The Christian Left
A major reason the left believes that only government can solve some problems is because we embrace the concept that it is better to teach a man to fish rather than give him a fish. Governments are best suited to ensure that all have access to quality education. Government mandates also ensure that help is universal rather than at the whim of those willing to give.

We hear more of the myth that: “The socialist robs us of our property” (VFT). We on the left view our possessions as gifts from God that are to be shared. THers make it abundantly clear that they believe that those who have possessions work and those who don’t are lazy. That’s quite different from the message presented in the Gospels. When conservatives prevail in democratic budget allocations (e.g., unneeded weapons systems), we on the left don’t delude ourselves with the claim that we’ve been “robbed” of our property. We understand we don’t always win in a democratic system. That fact escapes conservatives. On the other hand, conservatives are more than willing to rob future generations through deficit spending (a.k.a., taxation without representation)

No mention of the Democrats’ Need to Reduce Abortions Initiative – quite typical for TH.

No spirit crow, what really differentiates Warren and Osteen from Dobson and Falwell is that they ask people to look inward. They don’t sell the message that “Sin is something other people do, it’s the Muslims and the gays that need to worry.”

Gestell
Libertarianism is the closest to a New Testatment form of government philosophy that there is. To the greatest extreme possible, man should be responsible to His Creator alone. Gov't should protect the rights and properties of the people but interfere in their affairs whether public or private as little as possible. Gov't should NEVER, NEVER impose charity or morality (evaluations of right and wrong) on the people unless directly protecting the rights of an individual.

Sadly, this form of gov't began to be undermined when Lincoln successufully denied southern states their right to leave the Union. I am not approving of slavery or anything else but the founder's ideals and writings clearly establish that states have the right to dissolve political union.

It gained momentum when lying politicians passed the income tax amendment in the early 1910's. It hit high gear with FDR's socialism... then went to light speed with modern liberalism that began in the mid-60's.

Under the USC, there are no such things as "group rights". Now liberals have successful created the paradigm that not only are group rights valid... they supercede individual rights.

The best solution available is that our nation divide so that liberals and conservatives can pursue their ideals... but it won't happen since liberals have a compulsion to rule over everyone else.

Christian Left cont'd
Additionally we on the Christian left are saddened by the deafening silence from the Christian right after having invaded a country under false pretenses. It seems like Jesus would be down on that. Rather than turning the other cheek, the Bush doctrine says “Don’t wait until they slap you, slap them first.” McCain’s “Fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here” is just a variation of that.


“The fundamental tenant of modern liberalism is that a government program funded by redistributed wealth is the preferred method of humanitarian relief rather than what the church is accomplishing by faith through compassionate hearts.” This is patently untrue, read Clinton’s it Takes a Village. She champions programs whether they’re public or private. That’s another difference. The left looks for results. The right adheres close to their ideology.

sjt18
It sure sounds to me like your nostalgic for slavery and the Great Depression. As I said, the left is more interested in results than ideology.

I don't know how the Gospels coud make it any more clear that Jesus views poverty resulting primarily from a lack of sharing on the part of the wealth rather than a lack of effort on the part of the poor.

Once again we hear the sentiment that Christian considerations must be completely stripped from the process during budget discussion, but God save the person who greets someone with "Happy Holidays" during Christmas season. Jesus referred to that approach as straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel.

Cam part 1
"Governments are best suited to ensure that all have access to quality education."

You mean other than the fact that the US had the most educated population in the western world in the early 1800's and De Toqueville reported that almost all education was performed by the clergy, right? You mean other than the fact that the Renaissance was empowered by religious education and specifically the protestant belief that even the plow boy should be able to read his Bible, right?

"Government mandates also ensure that help is universal rather than at the whim of those willing to give."

So what you are saying is that gov't has the right to confiscate the property of an individual who earned it to give it to someone who didn't against their will and without appreciation from the recipient. In fact, the politician is effectively buying the vote of the beneficiary with OPM... and you think that's legit.


Cam part 2
"We hear more of the myth that: “The socialist robs us of our property”"

How is that a myth. If 50.1% of the people in your town decided that your car should be confiscated to give it to a "poor" person across town... would you call that fair or robbery?

The majority DOES NOT have the right to suspend the rights of the minority. That concept is wholly unconstitutional and plain immoral.

"We on the left view our possessions as gifts from God that are to be shared."

Then do so and I will too... but stop trying to impose your MORALITY on those who don't agree.

"THers make it abundantly clear that they believe that those who have possessions work and those who don’t are lazy. That’s quite different from the message presented in the Gospels."

No it isn't and that probably isn't even a fair representation of the viewpoint of conservatives. Whether those who have possessions are lazy or not has no bearing... THEY DO NOT have a RIGHT to the wealth of another person.

Again, you will NEVER find a single place where Jesus or any other NT authority says anything about using gov't to relieve the poor. He specifically made it a PERSONAL responsibility... and not one that should be imposed by someone who thinks they are more moral... like you.


Cam part 3
"When conservatives prevail in democratic budget allocations (e.g., unneeded weapons systems), we on the left don’t delude ourselves with the claim that we’ve been “robbed” of our property."

Defense is a constitutionally mandated responsibility of the federal gov't. It is perfectly in line with biblical teachings... and most importantly, it is a "common welfare" issue. Defense protects all, at once, without preference or denial of rights.

"We understand we don’t always win in a democratic system. That fact escapes conservatives."

Except that we were never intended to be a democracy. To the contrary, we were founded as a constitutional republic. The only "democratic" part was the election of representatives. The founders NEVER presumed that any majority had the right to deny the rights of the minority.

Jefferson even compared democracy to mob rule. They intentionally made it hard to pass laws and even harder to change the USC. Liberals have gotten by through ignoring the USC altogether and making it stick by loading the judiciary.

"On the other hand, conservatives are more than willing to rob future generations through deficit spending (a.k.a., taxation without representation)"

As long as 80% of the federal budget is spent on non-discretionary transfers of wealth invented by liberals like yourself... YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CHARGE CONSERVATIVES WITH THE BLAME FOR DEFICIT SPENDING. This nation never had a sustained or growing deficit until socialistic ideals like those you espouse wormed their way in.

Prodigal Son
I wonder if the prodigal son would have been headed for home as soon as he found himself hitting bottom if ,he had been able to access welfare,food banks,free housing,free health care, etc. It seems to me that "red letter Christians" are transferring their "Christian" duties to government. The problem with government delivery of charity is that it carries with it no obligation for change in behavior. There is a great difference between someone helping you because they love you, and helping you because it is their job.A person who loves you telling you that your behavior is harming you,and they want you to stop because they love you, is a far greater influence on you than someone who depends on your harmful behavior for a job.

Oh give me a break Cam
"It sure sounds to me like your nostalgic for slavery and the Great Depression. As I said, the left is more interested in results than ideology."

Is that your idea of a fair and HONEST debate tactic?

I indicated absolutely nothing of the sort and you KNOW IT. The US had at least one Depression prior to the 30's in the 1890's. It was shortlived as the engine of free enterprise pulled right through. The Great Depression only ended when FDR secretly positioned the US to enter WW2. I'm not promoting the conspiracy that he let Pearl Harbor happen but even the History Channel has had a documentary detailing how he privately wanted in. His socialistic programs DID NOT end the Depression or even lessen the suffering by any measurable degree.

They did however legitimize gov't power that was never owned before nor was it constitutional.

We are nation of Laws my friend. That is the ONLY way to ensure justice to all. We are not a nation of men... or "results".

"I don't know how the Gospels coud make it any more clear that Jesus views poverty resulting primarily from a lack of sharing on the part of the wealth rather than a lack of effort on the part of the poor."

Cite the passage and let's discuss it. In fact, look at the parable of the workers who contracted for a penny. Who's rights did Jesus affirm? He specifically said that the owner had no obligation to pay or give any more than he agreed to. How about the man who bought the vineyard and left it to husbandmen? He asserted that he had a right to that property.

EVERY time He gave commands to give to the poor or relieve the needy it was to individuals concerning their OWN wealth. Even the rich young ruler- He commanded him to sell all that he possessed... not to use his power as a gov't official to take from other wealthy people and distribute it to the poor... and YES that could have been commanded had it been what Christ intended to teach.


More Cam
"Once again we hear the sentiment that Christian considerations must be completely stripped from the process during budget discussion, but God save the person who greets someone with "Happy Holidays" during Christmas season. Jesus referred to that approach as straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel."

When liberal Christians do what Christ commanded of the rich young ruler... then you all still won't have the kind of moral authority that you are assuming.

You can include any "Christian consideration" you want when discussing "budget"... so long as you fund it with your own money or that of willing givers. You DO NOT have the right to impose your moral virtue on the unwilling who are doing absolutely NOTHING to violate your rights or anyone elses.

Funny how liberals are so sensitive to the notion that someone might "impose morality" when it comes to abortion (which is a human rights issue), homosexual privileges, pornography, etc... but have not qualms about violating someone's legitimate property, speech, religious, association, etc rights when it suits their purpose.

No Cam!
"No spirit crow, what really differentiates Warren and Osteen from Dobson and Falwell is that they ask people to look inward. They don’t sell the message that “Sin is something other people do, it’s the Muslims and the gays that need to worry.”

Yeah Cam, they ask us to look inward without mentioning that without Christ our sins will ultimately destroy us, and then tell us our fix is ourselves with Jesus' principles being applied without ever truly accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Rarely mention sin, but implore virtuous behavior without mentioning repentance!

Liberal Christians want humanists' and government solutions to problems, maybe leaning on the teaching of Jesus although at a shallow level, without ever accepting Jesus' message in depth and in context!

Oh yeah, gays and muslims should worry if they deny Jesus as Lord and Savior...just like everybody else who denies Him.

Driven or Led?
For a long time, I have felt that it is much better to be led by the Spirit, and not driven by some purpose that seems good to me.

sjt18 and your Mormon comment
Yes, sjt18, the Mormons believe that God is a Heavenly Father. He is an exalted man. Remember the Bible? God himself came down from heaven, became flesh, and then resurrected to become an exalted Man, once again. So? There is your own strawman argument. I'm talking about the lie that Huckabee told about the Mormons not believing in Jesus as the Savior of mankind. Nobody proclaims Christ as the Savior more than the Mormons. They even believe that Christ's atonement saves little babies who die without baptism (unlike most "Christian" churches) and heathens who die without ever hearing the name of Christ. Imagine that. A God who shows mercy to those he himself put in far flung places who then cannot hear about His Son. None of the evangelicals I've ever spoken to believe that those poor benighted souls will ever gain salvation. Huckabee included. The man is a moron or a liar or both.

Cam - *YOU'RE* an ''evangelical''?
--
Per Cam (honest, this is really what he posted!):

"Governments are best suited to ensure that all have access to quality education. Government mandates also ensure that help is universal rather than at the whim of those willing to give."

Well, there's all that need be said about the modern American political "evangelical" and his faith in the power of God, the value of God's word, and the moral strength of his fellow citizens.

Without "Government mandates" (i.e., the government's uniformed goons with guns, threatening people with violent death), all the wonderful Good Things that Cam wants done --

...especially "access to quality education," for which American government schools are famous all over the world...

-- would be "at the whim of those willing to give" rather than in the hands of trusty, wise professional politicians, career bureaucrats, and a government Teachers' Union (masquerading as the National Education Association) that is politically so far to the left that they swear their officers in with one hand on a copy of *Das Kapital*.

Oh, yeah, Cam.

You give us a *PERFECT* example of why all us "real conservatives" just can't get enough of you wonderful evangelicals.

--

Right about left and right-Part 1 of 3
Response Part 1 of 3) Many of the ideas about left and right in the original article are perceptive and accurate (despite the fact that modern day U.S. left/right Christian culture is so different from its original New Testament milieu and would be unrecognizable by the early Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus). Yes, it might seem that some "lefties" compromise getting the message out. And although yes, the author rightly reminds readers that historically (and currently) many ministries have brought the gospel AS they met the needs of the poor and sick . . . there have been too many evangelical organizations that have been spiritual "scalp hunters," promulgating a message without regard to the whole person or their needs . . . merely valuing a person’s mental assent to the gospel message. You rightly posit that its not an either-or proposition.

However, the statement that poverty and disease are caused by sin "the cause of those symptoms (sin) and the cure found in the gospel of Jesus Christ" is a gross oversimplification. Theologians have been debating for centuries, what it means that he heals all of our diseases (Isaiah 53). Jesus never said he came to cure (operative word) poverty, tragic as it is (although, of course, the Scriptures are replete with exhortations to care for the poor).

Yes, Jesus stood up in the synagogue after reading the words of Isaiah and announced (Luke 4:16-21) good news for the poor. But Jesus also said they would always be with us (Matt. 26:11). Idealistically speaking, or perhaps biblically speaking, poverty could be totally wiped out if all rich followers of Jesus (including the ones reading this now) made sure they had "all things in common" with poor followers... just like the New Testament Church. Just a thought for those who are tempted to be critical of left or right. (continued)

Right about left and right-Part 2 of 3
Response Part 2 of 3) See previous post. Is the author stating that anyone who is poor is so due to their own sin? Anyone inflicted with a disease has been inflicted because of their unrighteous acts? That misfortune comes upon us because some are worse sinners than others? Jesus would disagree with you. See Luke 13:1-5. Note vs. 2 "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?" . . . or vs. 4-5a "Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you no . . . "

The author not be saying this and I doubt he intended to imply the above but some could see his statement as triumphalist and uncompassionate. Yes, woes may come upon us because of poor choices. Sometimes the words "poor choices" or the watered down word "mistakes" are a euphemism for "sin.” Sometimes they are not. But I digress. We're all sinners in need of the glorious gift that Messiah provided. Let's be careful though, not to cause any more division. If those "lefties" are misrepresenting things, in "Christian" love, don't get angry over who is the "true" evangelical. What's in a name, a label? Did Jesus ever proclaim "thou shalt call thyselves evangelicals?" Why does it matter who gets to wear the "evangelical" label? Let's just be disciples. Remember, the disciples were first called (by others!) "Christians" (a label merely meaning followers of the Messiah or God’s Anointed) in Antioch (Acts 11:26).

Right about left and right-Part 3 of 3
Response Part 3 of 3) See previous post. Only Jesus' name is really important, not what they call you. If someone smites you . . . turn the cheek. If someone says all manner of things about you falsely . . . well, you know what the Bible says . . . of Jesus, it says that when he was reviled, he didn't retaliate but kept entrusting himself to him you judges justly (1 Peter 2:23). So someone says you’re not a true evangelical? Big deal. Just keep doing what God called you to do in your sphere of influence, for the poor you meet, for those "sinners" in your community, for those who desperately need to hear the gospel . . in love and humility . . . that's what's really important . Surely, this left/right definition argument can't be a testimony to a needy world. Now hmmm... who can I bless today? Who needs a helping hand, a kind word, a warm meal? Who need to hear the greatest news that ever came to our planet?

Just wondering!
1. As Jesus ascended and was soon out of sight, he morphed back into being God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit all rolled into one neat little package.

2. The Trinity is Biblical, so why was there a need for the Council at Nicea?

3. Who was it who decided that the current Bible have x-number of books, while the Catholic Bible has more? After all, weren't many Protestant sects derived from Catholocism's teachings?

4. God being no respecter of persons, why would he withhold the concept of Baptism for the remission of sins from peoples of far flung lands, of those that have died without the opportunity to have heard the Gospel?

Just wondering!

BIGSKYER
"Who was it who decided that the current Bible have x-number of books, while the Catholic Bible has more?"

Go back and read some history. The apocryphal books which were included in the Catholic canon were not officially canonized until the Council of Trent in 1546. This was done largely in reaction to the Protestant Reformation.

"After all, weren't many Protestant sects derived from Catholocism's teachings?"

Again, go back and read your history. The Reformers challenged the teachings of the Catholic church after they began reading the Bible for themselves.

Emotions, not reason . . .
is the invariable context of dilution of the gospel and freedom - it has always been so. (Isaiah: Chapters 1&2)

Which apostle was it that made a modern, emotional, "socialist" appeal to Jesus? (John: Chapter 6)

One thing about Evangelicals, they don't have to squabble about who will judge them, they already know. (Ecclesiastes: Chapter 12)

Aqualad and the subject in general
If God the Father is an Exalted Man, then that is heretical, from a traditional Christian perspective. Christ was God Incarnate, but without change or alteration, without mixing or confusion, and without separation. Also, Christ, though God, was also the Son of God, a separate Person, yet one of the Trinity. To call God the Father an "Exalted Man" is to circumscribe God the Father and is wholly unacceptable.

As far as the government and faith issue is concerned: of course the government SHOULD NOT be used as someone like Huckabee wants to use it. That is not the role of our government according to the Constitution. Under our current political system, this shouldn't be the role of the government, no matter what our personal inclinations may be.

To use our Christian beliefs to guide government tax and spend principles, or in designing the budget, we remove the necessary component of the action of giving being VOLUNTARY. Yes, we are judged on what we do (not what we believe or think), but through the prism of *why* we do it. Thus, giving is worthless unless it is done with true, selfless humility and love. And truly loving your fellow man without giving is equally worthless. We must live the faith, in all of its "impossible" requirements.

the sinner,

Charles

Never Trust An Environmental Evangelical
Any so called Evangelical who has jumped into bed with the pagan, earthworshiping, environmental wackos is definately not an Evangelical and probably not a Christian at all.

They are pretty stupid to boot. Our atmosphere is 98% nitrogen and oxygen. There is only 0.000385% CO2 in our atmosphere. It is a trace gas.

Any one who thinks a mere trace gas can cause climate change is dumber than a bag of hammers. Of course that is why they bought into the global warming scam in the first place.

Unstable people tossed about by every wind that comes along!

reply to sjt18
So, exactly where in the New Testament do we see this Christian view of government that is supposed to be like libertarianism? Is it in Romans, where Paul says that the powers that be (the governments) are ordained by God? That's not very libertarian, is it? I await illumination.

As for the Old South, I guess I just have to accept that there are conservatives who, given the option of having a national government that abolishes slavery and "states' rights," which would allow it, would prefer the latter, because it's constitutional. We liberals have been on target all along; conservatives really are as bad as we think they are. Thanks for living down to my expectations.

republicans
Regardless of re-definning evangelicals, Christians are finding the the GOP really doesn't like us. I'm finding I don't really like the GOP. I don't like the left any better than before, but I clearly see my status as a second class citizen within the GOP. So why should I be loyal to them? They are not committed to what I believe is important.
So many experts wanted the liar, liberal Romney while lieing about Huckabee. Not sure I can ever forgive the party for making sure the best man, Huckabee, loses.

Mistaken theological concepts--Bigskyer
The concept of God’s triunity is foolish, unbiblical nonsense as anyone can easily see. Jesus is a being entirely separate from the Father and only figuratively one with Him in that both share the same ultimate loving purpose. Oneness is often used in Scripture in this exact sense.

Even the doctrine of the trinity is unbiblical because the Holy Spirit is not represented in an honest interpretation of Scripture as being a divine being. While there is a being called the Holy Spirit, that term is quite often used with the meaning of "sinless motive, purpose, attitude." Jesus was a divine being equal with the Father but not a part of Him. He remained so until he became incarnate as a genuine human being limited as are all other human beings yet morally pure by his own free choice. He is now a unique, resurrected human being living in heaven “at the right hand of his Father".

Protestantism is itself founded on the basic theology of Augustine, a Catholic theologian. That is why Protestantism is fundamentally apostate and therefore spiritually powerless.

Read Romans, chapter 2, for insight concerning the fact that all people the world over know by native intuition the way or gaining right standing with God by turning away from selfish motivation and in faith embracing unselfishly loving ultimate motive (Luke 9:23). Baptism is merely a means of making that commitment in a symbolic act rather than using words to do the same thing. Baptism is, therefore, optional and is actually extremely harmful when considered as a magical means of salvation apart from an accurate understanding of its true biblical meaning and use.


ColinCody
"Even the doctrine of the trinity is unbiblical because the Holy Spirit is not represented in an honest interpretation of Scripture as being a divine being."

Jesus said blasphemy against the Father or the Son is forgivable, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not. How can the Holy Spirit be blasphemed if He is not a divine being?

Defining terms
It's really pretty silly, us having this debate, since many of the terms were defined already -- in the Bible.

"Christian" - a term first used in Antioch, Syria to identify what had been previously called "those people of the way." Antioch Christians were very evangelical. They spent their time studying the Scripture (what they had of it as probably not even James' letter had been written yet) and learning from Paul and Barnabas about Jesus. They launched the first world mission tour, sending their former teachers into Asia Minor around AD 46-47. The intent of that tour was to "evangelize" the Gentiles. Therefore, you have the definition of both Christian and evangelical in Acts 11 and 13.

I think if people who claim the name of Christian/evangelical or who want to pass judgment on the those who do so would bother to read the Bible for themselves (and employ thought while doing so) they wouldn't have any trouble understanding what a Christian or evangelical is. They're actually the same thing and they are defined in Acts.

gestell
"I guess I just have to accept that there are conservatives who, given the option of having a national government that abolishes slavery and "states' rights," which would allow it, would prefer the latter, because it's constitutional."

Where did you liberals come up with a "constitutional right" to abortion?

21st Century Evangelicals
It's a much maligned and ill-used term, again because people refuse to get their definition from the Bible.

An evangelical Christian would be someone who believes that Jesus Christ is Lord and has forgiven his disobedience to God through repentance (faith) and has publicly confessed that they hold this belief (Romans 10:9-10). That Christian also holds to the Great Commission and seeks to spread the gospel by evangelizing their neighbors and friends. That's basically just talking about what we believe and praying the message will land in fertile soil. Sometimes this evangelism will work in conjunction with some sort of physical/emotional/social ministry, but the primary focus of evangelicals is the same as that of the NT churches - to spread the gospel.

Non-evangelicals who call themselves Christians are actually sometimes believers, but they tend to think they don't need to tell those they minister to about the gospel. They somehow confuse the message of Jesus Christ and neglect the writings of the apostles to come up with "the gospel is a social mission." No, it's not! I know it's comforting to think that you don't have the share the gospel when you really don't understand the gospel, but that's not the New Testament pattern, so therefore, you cannot call yourself an evangelical Christian. And, truth be told, if you don't understand the gospel well enough to share it, maybe you aren't actually a Christian. Going to church and saying you're a Christian doesn't make you one. You are a Christian when you match the qualifications in Romans 10:9-10 and the wonderful examples found throughout the Book of Acts.

ColinCody - baptism
You are right when you say that baptism is harmful if considered a magical means of sacremental regeneration. However, it is never characterized anywhere in Acts as optional. Look at almost every salvation experience anywhere in the Acts of the Apostles and you will find - a) reasoning concerning the gospel, b) acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior (both requiring intelligent, adult minds), and c) immersion baptism. It is a symbol rather than a sacrament and so is NOT required for salvation, but it was definitely not an option to bypass it for the early Christians and it shouldn't be for Christians today. It is a first act of obedience after salvation and if someone wanted to forgo it, I would seriously doubt if they had actually accepted Christ as Savior.

It might also be noted that in many countries you can proclaim Christianity as much as you want without fear of retribution, but once you're baptized you become an infidel and subject to death as such. Seems maybe Muslims understand the significance of baptism better than some Americans who claim to be Christians.

ColinCody
Last post didn't take. Here's try #2:

Actually, the Trinity was a doctrine taught from the very beginning of Christianity. Saints Clement and Ignatius both explicitly refer to all three persons of the Trinity in their epistles, all written whilst Apostles were still alive during the first century (or, many of them were so written). In fact, St. Clement is actually mentioned in the NT as being a companion of St. Paul at Philippi. No one seems to have called their beliefs "apostate." I'll even point out that, when the books of the NT were being discussed in the fourth century, many wanted to include the epistles of St. Clement.

The early Christians also did not see baptism as "symbolic" or merely a "requirement." It was part and parcel of the inherent rejection of existential dualism common to the gnostics (neo-Platonists). It had a real-world, physical effect (not that was permanent or unchanging, but an effect all the same). This belief is mirrored in Corinthians when the Apostle tells us that to partake of the Eucharist, the actual Body and Blood of Christ, unworthily can lead to sickness and, even, death. It is also mirrored in the fact that we are to be physically resurrected, amongst other things.

The idea that Christ was NOT God Incarnate, that He was separate or merely a greatly elevated/inspired man, was an early heresy quickly crushed by the Church as a denial of the very economy of the Incarnation and salvation.

the sinner,

Charles

thank you
Thank you for the reminder that I need to start with the truth that only salvation by grace through faith can change a life. I believe that so centrally that I assume everyone knows it, and that compassion is simply the evidence of the Christ who now lives in me. You obviously have not read my book and do not know me, or you could not write this kind of mischaracterization. It's too bad that we assume compassion to be "liberal", or a substitute for salvation instead of the direct evidence of the life of Christ through His followers.

joel
how does Edwards mischaracterize you?

To the Original Post
Makeing Abortion illigal is a goal you can measure.

How you can end or even define poverty?

This is guilt trip stuff.

The General Scriptural principle is that sodomy is the pinacle of uncleaness and should be fought at all costs.

Sodomy is either legal or illigal. Accepted or not accepted.

Poverty is much more grey and perplexing.

sjt18 Proof ofHuckster's lies
Start here on immigration.

http://www.electionspeak.com/USElectionVideos/310

Next Huckabee on taxes

http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2008/01/26/mike-huckabee s-lies-exposed/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.electionspeak.com%2FUS ElectionVideos%2F299&frame=true

That is where he tried to dance around the direct challenge in the debate where he was aked point blank if he had a net increase of 500 million in taxes, yes or no and he skirted the answer. For the record the truth is YES.

Last and most importantly. Documentation that he LIED about the Wayne Dumond case, then tried to skirt it to Clinton. That is how the Soviet Union tried to explain food shortages for 40 years, blame it on World War II.

Had Huckahasbeen not maliciously had his offices hard drives destroyed, it may well be that Gov. Huckabee's administration was the real "Home of the Whopper".

Trinity Thoughts
http://www.aggelia.com/htdocs/trinity1.shtml

http://www.aggelia.com/htdocs/trinity2.shtml

http://www.aggelia.com/htdocs/trinity3.shtml

Like many other Evangelicals these good people lay good reason to question the "Trinity" doctrine as well as other Christians who oppose the pagan influences such as Easter eggs, etc.

Trinity is not found in the inerrant word of the Bible but a man made doctrine. It is not found in the Greek nor Latin Vulgate.

sjt18 Proof ofHuckster's lies pt.2
Sorry one link got left out, so I reposted.

Start here on immigration.

http://www.electionspeak.com/USElectionVideos/310

Next Huckabee on taxes

http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2008/01/26/mike-huckabee s-lies-exposed/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.electionspeak.com%2FUS ElectionVideos%2F299&frame=true

That is where he tried to dance around the direct challenge in the debate where he was aked point blank if he had a net increase of 500 million in taxes, yes or no and he skirted the answer. For the record the truth is YES.

Last and most importantly. Documentation that he LIED about the Wayne Dumond case, then tried to skirt it to Clinton. That is how the Soviet Union tried to explain food shortages for 40 years, blame it on World War II.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHdd_aZIvys

Had Huckahasbeen not maliciously had his offices hard drives destroyed, it may well be that Gov. Huckabee's administration was the real "Home of the Whopper".


RA
Since everyone else here is straying so horribly off topic, I'll just talk to you.

Have you seen the FUSE thing I'm talking about? Am I the only one LMFAO at the hypocrisy of it all?

Rayfinn
First, the Vulgate is a Latin translation of the Greek New Testament and, as such, was an early (though not the first) vernacular translation. It's not a particularly accurate one (though the original one might have been), so it's not worth referring to. The Greek texts are considered by scholars to be much closer to the source documents.

The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Greek, but the concept does. It starts in Genesis 1 where God refers to Himself as a plurality "let us make man...." Jesus said several times that He and the Father were One and He made multiple "I Am" statements which the Jews knew were references to Yahweh and it so incensed them that they tried to stone Him. There are multiple statements about "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit", always together in a triune fashion. And, ultimately, if Jesus wasn't God in full truth, we have no business worshipping him (little "h" used deliberately). To worship a man or a lesser god and say you are a worshipper of God -- well, that's idolatry. We're told that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the ONLY UNpardonable sin, suggesting Deity. The New Testament writers certainly believed Jesus was God. The early Church fathers also believed it. It wasn't until the 4th Century when a heretic came up with the idea that Jesus was some lesser god than God the Father that the Church seems to have questioned that Jesus was God. Trinity is just a word that was chosen by Theophilus of Antioch to describe God/Jesus/Holy Spirit as he understood them.

The concept is well-infused in the New Testament and even suggested in the Old Testament, but the catch-word doesn't appear there. Doesn't mean the concept doesn't exist.

Aggelia.com
These people are not evangelicals. I checked out their website and they're a border-line cult.

Truly, if someone believes that Jesus is not God Almighty, but continues to worship him (little h intended) as a lesser deity, one cannot call oneself a Christian because clearly the New Testament Christians believed that Jesus was God Almighty and worshipped Him as such. There would have been no disagreement with the Jews had they simply said Jesus was another god and formed a seperate religion. The Jews became murderous toward them because they claimed Jesus was THE God.

aurorawatcher
Actually you make a leap there from Latin Vulgate to Genesis. The Old Testament was originally in Hebrew and the word used was EL. Now we get into some precarious territory, because it denotes a plurality, which could be two,three or ten. These are really non essential side issues as God said our ways are not His and our comprehension is not fully capable of His. Far better it be to confess Christ, believe in His redeeming blood and to love our enemies whoever they are. I will not presume to classify the people at Aggelia.com as Christian or not. They know what is in their hearts and so does God. All I am trying to do on this board is to show that a lot of us Christians are quick to throw stones and I am not sure we are in a position to always do so. Thomas Jefferson was partially accused of not being a Christian for not recognizing a national day of Thanksgiving. In reality as governor of Virginia, Virginia had a day of Thanksgiving. When he was pinned down on this, it was not due to anything religious at all. His argument was that it was not a power expressly given to the Federal government in our Constitution, but thus expressly reserved to the states. Let us all be less quick to stone and more quick to love. Yes we have to call sin a sin, but we can still love the sinner.
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