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Monday, December 08, 2008
Mark Hillman :: Townhall.com Columnist
In Defense of Social Conservatives
by Mark Hillman
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Today's Republican Party seeks to advance freedom through limited government, strong national security, personal responsibility and traditional family values.

Although many Republicans generally adhere to all four of those elements, some do not; yet they remain allied because they are so strongly committed to one, two or three of those principles. Despite inner-party squabbles, most Republicans rationally accept that we must work together to form an electoral majority.

Recently, some have grumbled that social conservatives - pro-lifers, opponents of same-sex marriage and the so-called "Religious Right" - are to blame for the party's recent set backs and should be muzzled. If the goal is winning elections, rather than purging membership rolls at the country club, throwing social conservatives under the bus is a catastrophic idea.

The Republican Party is roughly two-thirds pro-life and one-third pro-choice. However, overwhelming majorities in both camps weigh additional factors before casting their vote. According to Gallup, rigidly single-issue voters constitute just 22% of pro-life Republicans and 8% of pro-choicers.

Just four years ago, pollsters credited "values voters" with re-electing President Bush and expanding GOP majorities. This year, moderate "maverick" John McCain enjoyed 72% support from evangelicals (of all parties) on Election Day, despite ranking as the least favorite primary candidate of pro-life Republicans.

Social conservatives rallied behind McCain and against Barack Obama, but prominent moderates like Colin Powell, William Weld and Lincoln Chaffee endorsed the Democrat. Bob Schaffer experienced similar defections from social moderates who would have disdained defectors had the shoe been on the other foot.

So why do some vocal social moderates and libertarians find it so difficult to coexist with social conservatives?

Some believe social issues are a loser at ballot box, pointing to the 3-to-1 defeat of this year's "personhood" amendment. That's a poor example because Amendment 48 split the pro-life community between those who hope to end abortion in one fell swoop and those who think an incremental approach is more practical.

Gallop says the public "is split nearly down the middle" on abortion, but other measures, like a ban on late-term abortion, enjoy overwhelming support.

The other galvanizing social issue, codifying the traditional definition of marriage, is the most successful citizen initiative since term limits and enjoys even stronger support among blacks and Hispanics than among whites.

Another reason social issues sometimes divide the party is that many in both camps are very principled in their beliefs. Moderates and libertarians truly believe that abortion and marriage fall beyond the bounds of limited government. Social conservatives reason that life is the foremost of our inalienable rights and that laws traditional marriage laws merely preserve a definition that governments have codified for centuries.

Most social conservatives don't care what goes on in someone else's bedroom, but when those matters move to a public hospital or a courthouse they take to the ramparts. In most cases, conservatives didn't seek out these battles until liberal activists and judges ignited the fuse.

On the other hand, pro-life leaders sometimes treat each tangent like a slippery slope. Battles over stem cell research and Terri Schiavo aren't as clearly defined as the mission of saving millions of unborn children.

Social moderates who say they just want government to "stay out of it" will soon be tested. Will they vociferously oppose restrictions on religious speech, taxpayer funding of abortion, and federal legislation to pre-empt state laws on abortion and marriage?

Standing on principle is commendable, but beating each other over the head with our differences is a fool's sport. The Republican Party is strong enough to stand on principle and broad enough to accept that sometimes more than one road may lead to that destination.

In the coming months, Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid will remind us all too clearly that the principles which unite us are far greater than those that divide us.

We need that reminder because, in the words of Benjamin Franklin, "We must all hang together or, assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

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About The Author
Mark Hillman is a Colorado native, a farmer, "recovering journalist" and a former Majority Leader of the Colorado Senate.
As my name says
To be a republican used to mean you stood for conservative priciples. That is no longer true of republican politicians. They are now as unprincipled as the democrats.

Please
Social conservatism only exists to cater to the Christian right in order to get their votes and their envelope-stuffing machinery.

This has relegated the GOP's red zone to the bible belt. It has nothing to do with smaller government. Indeed, it puts government into the bedroom and into the relationship between a woman and her doctor.

Eventually, the GOP will nominate some nitwit like Palin, get trounced and come back to its senses. The likes of Dobson and Perkins deserve to be shouting "the end is near" at the entrance to the Port Authority Bus Terminal - not determining the political agenda.

David Hart
http://www.tips-q.com

To Davie in NY....

"Eventually, the GOP will nominate some nitwit like Palin"....

Palin a nitwit?...During the Chuckie "gotcha" Gibson interview, Chuckie asked her about the Bush Doctrine...she replied, which part?....Gibson reiterated...the Bush Doctrine....

Palin was correct, the Bush Doctrine is divided into FOUR parts, .....pre-emptive strikes, nation-building etc....Palin was correct, and none of the dunces on the Left or MSM reported it accurately.

When the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob reveals "the end is near" as Dobson and Perkins alludes to....I hope you have an adequate supply of secular DEPENDS underwear as part of your clothing apparatus because you will certainly need them.....but oh yes, MOST likely you don't believe in those kinds of things.....lol.....

Agreed
I agree with this argument because the truth is the social conservatives will elect their own candidate if the Republican party decides to not embrace them anymore. There was talk of this before McCain picked Palin. I know that the social conservative candidate would not win, but it would also be the end of the Republican party. The party needs to be able to embrace everyone on the social spectrum. The real issue for the Republican party is smaller government. That is the fundamental difference between repubs and dems. Repubs need to do a better job of getting this message to the American people and so far, they haven't.

Faith, Logic and Reason...

“As long as the religious right is seen as controlling the Republican Party, the GOP will continue to lose some percentage of voters”.

The religious right does not control the Republican Party; it is only seen as controlling. This perception is killing the Republican Party; brought about by left-wing Democrats in their defense of abortion and the gay life-style.

“This percentage likely will increase over time as younger voters shift away from traditional to more progressive values”.

The case must be made regarding VALUES…Which values-set is more productive…Traditional or Progressive? I will take the hard working traditional over the feel-good progressive any day. Again, this VALUES perception is killing the Republican Party.

However, let faith inform one's values, but let logic and reason inform one's public arguments; Democrats fear this above all.

Neal
" left-wing Democrats in their defense of abortion and the gay life-style."

This has nothing to do with "defending abortion." Most Americans are in favor of protecting a woman's right to choose. I'll remind you that Barry Goldwater was fervently pro-choice.

Furthermore, sexual orientation is not a lifestyle. The Christian right uses that term to suggest that sexual orientation is a choice and to attempt to inaccurately define gay people by their sexual orientation.

Divided GOP
"Today's Republican Party seeks to advance freedom through limited government, strong national security, personal responsibility and traditional family values."

But here is the dilemma, illustrated by Reagan:
You can't have "limited government" AND "strong national security" at the same time; a strong national defense by its very nature demands massive government spending, activist government intrusion into our lives (such as the Patriot Act). Reagan campaigned on "limited government" but actually enlarged the government's spending and reach.

The same is true for "traditional values";

The only way for abortion to be banned, is to have a Draconian, Soviet-Style Government Bureau of Birth Control Monitoring to make sure no one is secretly taking RU-486.

The only reason the GOP was successful during the 1980's is the common enemy of the Soviet Union; when that disappeared, the GOP lost its unifying force.

David
Liked both your posts; as a loyal Democrat, however, I say thank god for Sarah Palin, birth certificate conspiracy theorists and believers in "gay life style", except that even I feel that our country needs a rational, intelligent, in-depth opposing party with ideas that didn't die in 1990 from old age.

I forgot to add
that while conservatives pretend to be for small, non-invasive government, they in fact want government that intrudes on our most personal of decisions: how we procreate, who we love and/or marry, how we die and under what terms, how we make our reproductive decision, how we medicate ourselves and even the books we read are susceptible to government scrutiny.

Somehow this never seems to come up when intrusive government is discussed.

Question

why is it that Palin-worship and birth certificate fever both seem to exist in the same heads? Is is some kind of rural pathology that arrives on a global-warming exacerbated virus?

Support Traditional Marriage Businesses
PRO-Traditional Marriage folk in CA MUST
...SUPPORT-COTT all these businesses.
THESE BUSINESSES have been targeted by crazy, liberal, gay marriage creeps for BOYCOTT!

These disgusting lifeforms who will NOT ACCEPT the vote of the people have LISTED businesses that EMPLOY contributors of Traditional Marriage at ELLEN DEGENERES' website!!!

PLEASE go to this website and NOTE these Supporters of Traditional Marriage- AND SUPPORT THEM!

FROM THE ELLEN SHOW:
"Boycott: List of Supporters of Prop 8
Here is a list of businesses who have endorsed / donated to Yes on 8 that you can boycott. Whether or not Prop 8 passes, you can still vote with you dollar.

Ag West Distributing Co

Alpasina Insurance Services
Unable to locate info

American Build & Design, Inc

American Focus
Alhambra, CA .... and many,many more at
http://www.afterellen.com/node/39787

LMoore
If the things you wanted impacted only yourself, there would be no problem.

Abortion kills an innocent human being; an innocent third party to two others who were irresponsible. Who perhaps didn't ask to be conceived, but would surely not demand to be torn to pieces.

'Gay marriage'. This is an oxymoron. Go get your frickin' civil union with the one you 'love' and STFU. Are you for pedophilia as well, since those who support that say it's about 'love' as well? If not, why not? If it's 'love', it's OK, or it ought to be, isn't it?

There is only one way to procreate: through the sex act, unless something's changed that the rest of us have missed. Even one step reomoved, someone has to provide the raw materials. You can have or adopt as many kids as you can support, btw.

Nobody is stopping you from committing suicide if you really feel life is no longer worth living. Have the courage of your convictions and get a living will. Understand that you have every right to refuse medical treatment of any kind for any reason, which is what a living will is about. Who's forcing you to stay if you'd really rather leave?

What books are you denied access to here in the USA? Those filled with pedophilia, perhaps? Have the authorites confiscated your copy of the satanic bible or something? Please elaborate.

You're full of it; take your silly whine elsewhere. We're fresh out of cheese.

What Do Conservatives Agree On?
With the exception of their stand upon abortion, I have never agreed with the social conservative agenda. Their stand on other issues, such as teaching creationism in schools and abstinence only sex education, is out-right embarrassing. I still do not understand how gay marriage is threatening my traditional marriage. The gay marriage amendment was also an embarrassment. The social conservatives should have no influence upon the Republican Party platform.

Alive in Him
You just did what almost every conservative under the sun does: justified your desire for government that insinuates itself into the most private and personal aspects of our lives. What you are saying is that we are so intrinsically evil that we need government - like Sarah Palin? - to tell us what to do.

Please, don't tell me the same old same old about why you want small government when it comes to seat belts but want big brother when it comes to actual lives.

Conservatives
I am a conservative and old enough to remember how society was before the left took us down the path toward destruction.

They have destroyed almost very established rule that made us a civilized nation.What they could not get at the ballot box,they took to liberal judges who gave them what they wanted.

The left is not entirely to blame. We have had week-kneed Republicans who went along to get along and let it happen.

The left claim to be for helping those who could not help themselves. Their intentions,they say were good. I say and the Bible says "the road to hel! is paved with good intentions'.


Ranger
About SP - I think there is a vast difference between being "dumb" and being "ignorant"...I don't think Palin has a low IQ, but I think she is neither knowledgeable or informed about the world, or even American history and government.

My father in law never passed the 8th grade, but he made himself a rich man because he was street smart and crafty. He was successful as a property and stock owner, he would have been an abysmal failure as president.

same old debunked "facts"
"The other galvanizing social issue, codifying the traditional definition of marriage, is the most successful citizen initiative since term limits and enjoys even stronger support among blacks and Hispanics than among whites. "

This is incorrect. The marriage issue resonates with OLDER voters across all races. Those under 30 don't see the issue as very important. As the older voters naturally die off - same-sex marriage will be normalized across all states and the federal government.

Liberal sign-Thank God For DEAD SOLDIERS
What would you expect from people who DON'T KNOW that both houses of Congress are controlled by Democrats.

Nearly half of liberals DON'T KNOW that 80% of the media are partisan democrats posing as journalists.

They DON'T KNOW that 80% of inmates identify more with the democrat party. Less than 10% identify with the republican party. Well...some of them know about this potential pool of Democrat votes. Liberals; they want to give inmates the right to vote and, in the Al Gore mode, block military votes.

Liberals, ya gotta love em.

See Drudge on Global Govt.
When do we fight back? What does it take? Is anybody asking themselves this question? because I don't want global govt. and think that perhaps I have a natural right not to submit to such a system. When does it make sense to take it up their throats?

David...
I am for pro-choice; the right to chose responsibly, not irresponsibly.

The term sexual orientation refers to the gender (that is, male or female) to which a person is attracted. Bisexuals and Homosexuals, by their actions regarding those orientations are a life-style they chose to live.


The fork in the road
The principle behind social conservativism is religious statism. The principle behind the rest of the party base is limited Constitutional government. The former necessarily entails violating the rights of the individual. The latter entails a respect for property rights, the right to life and liberty, and the right to pursue happiness.

If you use taxpayer funds to set up religious displays in the courthouse, you are violating the taxpayer's property rights; the taxpayer is not violating your rights. If you ban gay marriage, you are denying gays the right to pursue happiness; the gays are not violating your rights by getting married. If you ban abortion, you are violating pregnant women's right to life, the right to control their bodies as they wish; they are not violating anyone's rights by getting an abortion. (A fetus is not a person and therefore has no rights. And there should be no socialized medicine either, but as long as there is, then abortions must be covered. To not cover it is to violate the rights of the people who have paid into the system). To introduce creationism into schools is to violate the rights of the taxpayers, teachers, and students. Finally, for government to "stay out of it" means for all governments to stay out of it--including state governments. There is no such thing as a right to 50 tyrannies instead of one.

The two philosophies are inherently contradictory and cannot co-exist long-term. Adopting one means adopting a whole set of premises and beliefs that guide and inform one's position on all issues. One of the philosophies has to go. The demographics do not favor social conservativism. Don't count on Hispanics for support. They won't be there for social conservativism in the future. The times are changing.

Lyn -
"Liberal sign-Thank God For DEAD SOLDIERS"

Exactly where did you see that political slogan? I don't think that even Karl Rove could think of something that disgusting. Conservatives have legitimate differences with liberals but to believe that Democrats are happy when our young soldiers die is offensive and delusional regardless of politics.

Wendy
There is no contradiction between pro-life and conservative values. You make the error the pro-aborts have been feeding you a false dichotomy of church vs. state. Being prolife and protecting the unborn IS conservative.

It is conservative limited government to deny the state the right to determin what defines a human life. From conception is the scientific definition. To allow the state to change that is to hand to them to define what is a human life that can be snuffed out.

The pro abort movement is the biggest lie: It's a woman's choice. The choice is to kill a child and it is the state defining the choice, not the woman and it is the state using coercive pressure through an educational system, media system and tax system to copnvince these women that the child within them is not a child.

It is conservative to take back the definition of life to the people and not the state. When states determine who is worthy of liufe, like everything else the government seeks to expand their power. Whose nect? Infantrs the elderly? thge handicapped?

It won't be women making these choices, because it was the state now that decided to define life to exclude the unborn.

Now where has religion or religous forces come up in my argument, nowhere!

Apply critical reasoning to this issue and its horror can be clearly seen by any atheist.

Miss the point more...
The funny thing about this column is the numbers. Not the numbers presented within it, but the numbers left out.

Two out of three voters under the age of 30 supported gay marriage rights in exit polling in the 2008 election. I'll give you two guesses as to whether or not that number goes down on less hot-button issues, but you'll only need one.

Fact is, the culture war's over. The fogeys are still going to yell at each other over it, but my generation already decided. We'll doubtlessly get more moderate as we age, as happens with every generation, but if you think we'll be anywhere near the wild-eyed crazies of the religious right, you're out of your mind. Those people have kids, of course, but they're in the minority.

Polling numbers on abortion haven't moved since Roe. Fewer of the < 40 crowd are getting married young, preferring to wait - and have plenty of sex - a long time before tying the knot. You're not going to tell people who grew up with wireless internet that science is bad, thus stem cell research and creationism are lost causes for social conservatives. The latest numbers on religious affiliation of that same crowd from the most recent Pew poll would shock you. Sarah Palin IS Tina Fey as far as we're concerned.

I give you guys ten, maybe fifteen more years to keep trying to ram the Bible through into law, and then you're going to see a pretty dramatic shift as you die off.

Wendy…

You have certainly got a lot more to learn about Republicanism and Conservatism. Here is a start...

Republicanism is the value system of governance that has been a major part of American civic thought since the American Revolution. It stresses liberty and rights as central values, makes the people as a whole sovereign, rejects inherited political power, expects citizens to be independent in their performance of civic duties, and is strongly inclined against corruption. American Republicanism was founded and first practiced by the Founding Fathers in the 18th century. This system was based on early Roman and English models and ideas. It formed the basis for the American Revolution and the consequential Declaration of Independence (1776) and the Constitution (1787), as well as the Gettysburg Address. It is not the same as democracy, for republicanism asserts that people have inalienable rights that cannot be voted away by a majority of voters. (Hence supermajorites were required for approval of treaties and constitutional amendments). In a government made up as a constitutional republic, the Rule of Law and clearly defined constitutional principles dictate the actual administration of government.

Conservatism in the United States is a major American political ideology. In contemporary American politics, it is often associated with the Republican Party. Core conservative principles include belief in God and country, and most U.S. conservatives support a fiscal policy rooted in small government and laissez faire capitalism. In foreign policy, American conservatives usually advocate "American exceptionalism," an ideology that holds that the U.S. is unique among nations of the world and that its standing and actions globally are hugely influential in dictating the direction of the entire world. In the late 20th century and early 21st century, American conservatives have been the driving force behind increased U.S. military power.

Choice Neal?
"The term sexual orientation refers to the gender (that is, male or female) to which a person is attracted. Bisexuals and Homosexuals, by their actions regarding those orientations are a life-style they chose to live."

More nonsense. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation. Living as they are is neither a choice nor a lifestyle - no matter how much the Christian right seeks to frame it in those terms.

My lifestyle is defined by my endeavors - not my sexual orientation; I have had the same strictly monogamous relationship for almost 30 years. My partner is a senior executive at a media company; I serve on several corporate boards, have been the CEO of a fairly large company, have owned and sold several businesses and am a Deming-oriented quality management consultant. Our "lifestyle" is very similar to our straight married friends - although some of them have a divorce or two.

Gay bashing is a billion dollar a year INDUSTRY that keeps people like Perkins and Dobson in expensive cars and homes. Their JOB is to use it as a political wedge issue. They continually blow that indoctrination of your children dog whistle - as if being gay is contagious.

Meanwhile we pay more than our fair share of taxes and we are fighting - and dying - in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are your lawyers, doctors, accountants, nurses, teachers, rabbis, ministers, and professional athletes. We wash your windows, cut your hair, craft your computer networks, build bridges and care for your kids. increasingly, we are members of the PTA, raising kids like everyone else and studies show that our children are at least as successful as those raised by heterosexual parents.

We want -- and deserve -- equal protection under the law. Nothing more and nothing less.

David Hart
http://www.tips-Q.com

Cavell…

I can guarantee you that as you get older you will not only become more moderate but wiser. I said the same thing when I was your age and probably younger. I remember my Dad and Grandfather told me the same thing…now I pass it on the the next generation.

David…


I would like to continue this…but you have no idea of what you are talking about.

I did not say or imply, that sexual orientation was a life-style.

Enough…said….

You've Got Alot To Learn - Neal
It is not accurate to say that Republican Party of the 18th century is the Republican Party of the 21st century. The majority of your definition is in comparison to The Federalist party that believed in a monied, ruling class.

Also, I'm interested in hearing where you got your definition of conservatism; Buckley? I don't dispute his contribution to conservatism but I'd hardly call him the foremost authority. I am much more comfortable with Goldwater's point of view.

Neal
Sure thing, bud. That's why we still have the morality of the 1950's.

Right?

Neal HUH? Are their Two Neals?
"I did not say or imply, that sexual orientation was a life-style."

R5:

"The religious right does not control the Republican Party; it is only seen as controlling. This perception is killing the Republican Party; brought about by left-wing Democrats in their defense of abortion and the gay life-style."

R32:

" Bisexuals and Homosexuals, by their actions regarding those orientations are a life-style they chose to live."


How strong would the GOP be

without any social conservatives? If it gives up on outlawing abortion, it will find out.

The social conservatives do not need the GOP. The GOP is a total loser without the social conservatives.

GOP members who oppose social conservatives are about as smart as Kathleen Parker.

Why should anyone support

or celebrate acts of same-sex sodomy? They produce nothing except selfishness and despair.

Conservatives
If not for conservatives,we would have a lawless society. It is getting worse every day and only the right is standing in the way of total hedonism and barbarism. That is why we are so hated by the left.

Eddie
"Why should anyone support or celebrate acts of same-sex sodomy? They produce nothing except selfishness and despair."

Hmmm, the bible tells thee so. I want neither your "support" nor "celebration." Nor, for that matter, do I care a whit about your acceptance. You are irrelevant.

Your biblical opinions are PRECISELY WHY gay people ned and demand equal protection under the law. Nothing more and nothing less. It was never intended for a minority to be tyrannized by an organized religion. It's called separation of church and state. It's a simple enough concept.

Regards,
David Hart
http://www.tips-Q.com

Eddie
What, you are going to get trounced at the polls under a third party banner? Eventually, enough of you will die off to be replaced by younger moderates.

The good news is that you folks guarantee Obama a second term. Abortion? The vast majority of Americans support a woman's right to choose and the GOP cannot talk about limited government that intervenes between a woman and her physician. For that mater how does limited government get into the marriage business? Don't like abortion - don't do it. Pretty simple. If you have a serious disease, refuse any treatment developed through fetal stem cell research. You are free to make those choices.

You can probably fill in the rest and spare me the keystrokes.

Wendy #27 nails it, sort of
"The two philosophies are inherently contradictory and cannot co-exist long-term. Adopting one means adopting a whole set of premises and beliefs that guide and inform one's position on all issues. One of the philosophies has to go. The demographics do not favor social conservativism. Don't count on Hispanics for support. They won't be there for social conservativism in the future. The times are changing."

Don't give up your day job to take up teaching political philosophy just yet, but there is a smattering of truth, however diluted it is with tendentiousness, in the last part of your post.

The really sad part though? You see this as a good thing.

Chuck
It amazes me how liberals just sit around all the time with close there eyes and point at words in dictionaries, write them down and then surround them with nonsense to try and make themselves look smart. You are beyond being an arrogant idiot. When you read back your own nonsense you can't figure out what it means.

Excellent Articule

In the articule you say,

"Most social conservatives don't care what goes on in someone else's bedroom, but when those matters move to a public hospital or a courthouse they take to the ramparts. In most cases, conservatives didn't seek out these battles until liberal activists and judges ignited the fuse."

This can not be overstated.

Time for a reality check
In case you have not noticed, the economy is in a recession. Unless radical steps are taken we are looking at a Depression. Sky-high unemployment, and foreclosures, and bankruptcies.

If the Republican party goes around with the multiple albatrosses of abortion, school prayer, stem-cell research, yada yada yada tied around our necks, we are going to look ridiculous and continue to lose elections, nationally.

Running around with pickled fetuses in glass bottles, is going to condemn us to the political wilderness.

Fortunately
There are plenty of Republican Conservatives left who do not need to take a poll to see what we think -- or believe that Popularity is the only end of life.

Our beliefs are our beliefs and we vote according to them, and if you do not like it you can go pound sand.

P.S. to the writer: do you understand that Spell-Check does not tell you whether or not you are using the correct word? Proof-reading is your friend.

cemab4y from NJ

I agree. So why do you think Liberals are trying to push their left wind agenda on everyone when we are in the middle of economic collasp?

Issues like Gay marriage, public funding of Stem Cell Research and abortions could wait for a time when we can better afford it.

If only the Liberals would put the nation first.

This conservative Christian does not ...
wish to impose my moral imperatives on others. Why? Because our nation's laws grant the same liberties that God Himself gave to us in the form of freewill. The freewill to either accept or reject His love. If God is willing to grant that choice to His created beings, who am I to force others to live as I choose to live?

Twice, Paul writed in his first letter to the Church as Corinth, in 6:12 and 10:23, that, though all things are permissable, or possible, not all things are beneficial. I have the freewill to accept God's love for me, in which case I will heed His teachings, or I can refuse them.

I'm not a Pollyanna who believes that we can simply lead everyone to the promiseland if we would only but love them. The Creator of all things knows the hearts and minds of men and has written in His word that many will reject Him. I can only lend credence to His existence and His goodness by living a joy-filled life of hope. To do otherwise is to misrepresent Him to a dying, non-believing world.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

RIGHTS?
(A) LIFE:
(B) LIBERTY:
(C) THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS:
These are the ABCs of our 'Rights' in our Country and in our society. And were written in that order.
When do these 'Rights' take effect? And when can they be denied or taken away?
We the People have given Government, State and Federal, the power to legislate 'laws' which define 'when' these 'Rights' take effect and when they can be denied or taken away. 'Laws' are meant to 'protect' all citizens of our Country. 'Laws' are not cast in stone, they can be changed, re-written, appealed, overturned, etc. Our 'Rights', however, are cast in stone. But because people re-arrange the order in which our 'Rights' have been written, there is 'conflict'. Our 'Rights' begin with 'LIFE' (before 'LIBERTY' and then followed by 'THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS'). It can be proven 'LIFE' begins at conception. 'LIBERTY', the freedom to choose, comes second and 'THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS'(which is NOT a guarantee of) comes third.
I believe our 'laws' should reflect and 'protect' those (our) 'RIGHTS' and in the order that the Founders of our Nation meant them to be.

Wrong Problem
Face it folks the problem is not social conservatism. The problem is hypocrisy. After all its not a problem for a pro-choice, pro-homosexual, pro-whatever democrat to be caught running a brothel (or pick your problem) as it is for an pro-life, anti-homosexual, family vaues type policitian to be caught soliciting now is it.


A Telling Quote,
Thomas Sowell perfectly summed up the mindset of those who rant against social conservatives:

"Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good."

Conservatives understand that those traditions that have stood the test of time did so because they WORKED. That is, they allowed both individual people and society as a whole to prosper in freedom and to pass both culture and property to the next generation in an orderly fashion.

Conservatives understand that, since heaven and earth are two different places, the correction of such injustices as exist must be undertaken carefully, with due attention to the costs lest greater harm be done by the "solution" than was inflicted by the original problem.

r729
Do not misunderstand what I'm saying. I am not saying that with any sense of triumph or happiness.

I feel like Augustine in Hippo, North Africa when news was brought to him that Rome had been sacked; he wept, although he no longer had faith in what it represented.

It is bad enough when the Wendy's of the world argue against those who insist on maintaining their faith in the underlying moral and spiritual foundation of conservatism. But that is to be expected; theirs is a philosophy wholly estranged from any such considerations.

But when those who call themselves "conservative" take up the same chant and call for the marginalization of those who do, then the end of conservatism, as we know, it cannot be far off.

The Vandals are no longer at the gates; they are in the inner sanctum.

=====


And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. - Jesus
Mark 3:25-26 RSV

AudiR10,
Nicely put.

One of the main differences between conservatives and left-liberals is that conservatives believe that being RIGHT (correct/moral/aligned with the truth/etc), is the critical thing while left-libs believe that being popular (cool/in step with the times/in consensus), is the critical thing.

Left-libs never seem to be able to get their minds around the concept that if 10 billion people asserted that the sky was red and only one person proclaimed it blue that one person would remain right and the 10 billion would be wrong.

We conservatives are fighting for nothing less than the continuation of civilization itself against those who are unable to see past their next opportunity to gain some temporary, physical pleasure.

Wow, what a dunce?
Okay, seriously, I do know the past tense of write is wrote, not "writed". I'm not sure what I was thinking. Judging by the spelling, I guess I wasn't.

Tod Kozeluh

r729 - how I see it.
It is not an enemy who taunts me -
then I could bear it;
it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me -
then I could hide from him.

But it is you, my equal,
my companion, my familiar friend.
We used to hold sweet converse together;
within God's house we walked in fellowship

Ps. 55:12-14 RSV

RU-486 What is the definition?
Abortion Pill or Morning After pill? Maybe if conservatives could agree on the terminology, some of the rancor might be diminished over the abortion issue. Perhaps some acceptance of RU-486 as a non-abortion alternative?

Social issues.
My view is that the Republican Party is know solely by its view on social issues. Perhaps that is fact, perhaps it is merely what the media cares to project as fact. Nonetheless, the Republican Party needs to be known by a philosophy and good record of governance, if it hopes to resurge in popularity. Remember that fellow Reagan? President Reagan spoke, lived, wrote, and believed in good conservative governance; he did not fake it!

Social Conservatives
Remember that guy in high school who, well, yeah, was your friend, and overall he was a pretty cool guy - mostly, you got along and had a lot of the same ideas when it came to having a good time, but occasionally he just did something so ridiculously embarrassing around you that you just wanted to deny ever knowing him, or possibly run him over with a truck?

That's how I view the social conservatives these days.

Mostly, they have the same positions, as far as small government, fiscal policy, a strong military, and so on, and mostly, one can try to overlook the embarrassing parts in order to have an ally on other (sometimes more) important issues, but they just make me cringe internally whenever one of "their" issues come up - cringe, and relocate across the room, metaphorically speaking, so I won't be taken as one of them.

I do hope eventually the Republicans separate from this element - it would be fundamentally simple, too - the party of small and limited government could very easily take the position that government has no business in all of these social issues at all. As a party strictly of financial responsibility, military strength but not empire-building, small government, low taxes, and limited regulation, I believe the Republicans would be more successful - at the least, what could the media make fun of (let's face it, bigots and foaming fanatics ARE mockery-worthy) if that were the case? Fiscal sanity?

Robert,
Killing an unborn baby by poisoning it in the womb is just as much an abortion as chopping it up for a D&C is.

Same for the chemicals and implants that turn the mother's womb from a nurturing environment intended to support life into a hostile desert where the newly conceived baby can't implant.

Once conception occurs any outside interference with the natural progress of development towards birth is the murder of an innocent child.

People who do not wish to be 100% responsible for a child for the next 18 years can abstain from having sex or, at the least use, fertility awareness and barrier contraception to reduce the risk to what they deem an acceptable level.

Actions have consequences. Sex makes babies. Those who don't want to accept that reality need to grow up because reality doesn't come with an escape clause.

VeritasX
Hmmm, sounds like solid reasoning and good theory.

But, tell me why we see the country inexorably headed in the opposite direction in terms of ACTUAL policy and implementation?

Or failing that, which Republican leaders with any influence on the national stage who are not in some way aligned with social coservatives, are actually working to that end or at least speaking to these ideas?


Anotherone bites the dust!
"Gov. Rod Blagojevich and his chief of staff were arrested today by FBI agents on federal corruption charges."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-rod-blagojevic h-1209,0,7997804.story

Allow me to correct the first line of the article:

"Fringe left wing, ultra-liberal, communist sympathizing, America-hating, fascist-loving, Obama-supporting ===DEMOCRAT=== Gov. Rod Blagojevich and his chief of staff were arrested today by FBI agents on federal corruption charges."

VeritasX, A Better Idea,
I have a better idea,

If the Republican party gets rid of all the people who, like you, are ashamed of the ideas that all human beings have inherent, inalienable human rights from conception until natural death, that equality means applying the same rules to all people instead of creating special rules for each identity grouping, and that civilization is worth defending.

When they do that, I'll consider actually joining the party. Too many RINOs and McCain-like centrist-democrats-driven-from-their-party-by-the-loony-left-fringe in that party at the moment for me to endorse it.

VeritasX, A Better Idea,
I have a better idea,

If the Republican party gets rid of all the people who, like you, are ashamed of the ideas that all human beings have inherent, inalienable human rights from conception until natural death, that equality means applying the same rules to all people instead of creating special rules for each identity grouping, and that civilization is worth defending.

When they do that, I'll consider actually joining the party. Too many RINOs and McCain-like centrist-democrats-driven-from-their-party-by-the-loony-left-fringe in that party at the moment for me to endorse it.

VeritasX, A Better Idea,
I have a better idea,

If the Republican party gets rid of all the people who, like you, are ashamed of the ideas that all human beings have inherent, inalienable human rights from conception until natural death, that equality means applying the same rules to all people instead of creating special rules for each identity grouping, and that civilization is worth defending.

When they do that, I'll consider actually joining the party. Too many RINOs and McCain-like centrist-democrats-driven-from-their-party-by-the-loony-left-fringe in that party at the moment for me to endorse it.

VeritasX, A Better Idea,
I have a better idea,

If the Republican party gets rid of all the people who, like you, are ashamed of the ideas that all human beings have inherent, inalienable human rights from conception until natural death, that equality means applying the same rules to all people instead of creating special rules for each identity grouping, and that civilization is worth defending.

When they do that, I'll consider actually joining the party. Too many RINOs and McCain-like centrist-democrats-driven-from-their-party-by-the-loony-left-fringe in that party at the moment for me to endorse it.

embarrassment.
I'm not sure where to begin to describe the different ways the social conservatives are a drain on our party.

First of all it is so hard to have a rational discussion with a social conservative. Instead of talking about things in which we have empirical evidence for they want to discuss issues through a lens of "magical" thinking ie Religious thinking.

They are always right because of what God tells them and despite being Christian they don't seem anything Christ like at all.

Second they seem to hate diversity. Diversity is a four letter word to them. They feel threatened by people of other faiths -esp. muslims. They are offended by the very existence of gay people, despite gay people being our friends, our family, our co-workers, etc.

They seem to have a disdain against science especially evolution. So you can't have an intellectual conversation with a social conservative about the origins of the universe.

Social conservatives are rabid extremists who want some version of a theocracy in America. They want Christianity to rule supreme in our law.

Heck, despite the hate mail I get here on townhall I am a christian but I believe in the diversity of America. People can believe what they want and I welcome different people and different thought.

Social Conservatives aka the radical religious right are dangerous to freedom and they are dangerous to America.

They wage silly culture wars against fellow Americans but yet they have some weird monopoly on patriotism. They are an embarrassment.


initiatives
The anti-gay ballots may be the most successful citizen initiatives but since they either deny rights to a minority group or took away pre-existing rights (gay marriage in FL and gay adoption in Arkansas)...

Ultimately they will be unsuccessful. Eventually they will be overturned either by new ballot initiatives or the courts.

This will eventually be an embarrassment for conservatives and Republicans. They will be looked upon with the same disdain as those who supported Jim Crow laws.


reply to Matthew
I agree with most of your points, but you don't seem to get that the social conservatives simply ARE the real conservatives. Limited government advocates are libertarians, not conservatives. Social conservatives believe that government is necessary to maintain the moral and religious way of life they regard as required by the Bible. Such liberal concepts as diversity are abhorrent to real conservatives.

The fissure within conservatism is very deep and very old. Various efforts over the years, such as 'fusionism' back in the 1950s/60s, have been proposed, but no such moderating doctrine will work.

People who consider themselves conservatives have to decide; religion and tradition, or limited government.

Social Conservatives Are Necessary
I, for one, do not want the social conservative to dissappear from the political landscape. They play an important role in American culture and serve as a stop to over-reaching on the left. However, to be of any value, a social conservative movement has to be based on honesty and grounded in reality.

The social conservatism being rejected today is a social conservatism that neither honest nor realistic. For example, it is perfectly clear that many social conservatives DO want to control the personal lives and behaviors of other Americans. They are just as apt to seek power and control as anybody on the left. They favored an intrusive government approach to the Schiavo case. They want to insert government in-between a woman and her doctor. They tend to favor government regulation of substances that individuals choose to ingest. If they could, they would be quite happy to control what people see and read and hear. Despite their claims to the contrary, they would have preferred that gay relations had remained illegal.

In this way, there is definitely a conflict between many who espouse limited government and many social conservatives. Both reality and honesty require admitting this.




OPENING SENTENCE IS wrong!!!

"Today's Republican Party seeks to advance freedom through limited government, strong national security, personal responsibility and traditional family values."

If that statement were true, a conservative republican would be the president elect today. It is PRECICELY because that statement is NOT TRUE that a liberal democrat is.

And here is news, if the stupid Rockyfella wing of the republican party does not stop putting these watered down candidates up for election, they may as well become accustomed to being the MINORITY party because I, and millions of other conservatives, ARE NOT going to vote for them any more. We didn't in the last election and we are not in the future. How do they like that so far?



I smell a "but"
Matthew, in post #says, "...I am a christian (sic) but..."

Setting aside the obvious inconsistency of one claiming Christian bonafides without capitalizing the name of his religious identity, as soon as we hear the "but" we can be reasonably certain that what follows is not informed by Biblical understanding but are about to be regaled by personal preferences masquerading as principled thinking.

American Liberity
America is a place where the biggest percent of the world population would like to live,and a lot of them come to grab the chance to make a better life for themselves.

Joseph Cao is a very good example of what someone can do with determination and the will to go for it. He was not someone who sat around waiting for the government handouts,he made it on his own.

We have a group of people in America that want to change the way we have been doing things since the start. This country was built with people who believe their is a God, a higher power.When Roe vs Wade was passed America started to change,and not for the good.Abortion is murder,late term is as bad as what Hitlers men did in Germany.A womans choice is to have sex and to be responsible with protection or not, that is her choice. Jesus said to bring the children to him,he would protect them. I am sure Jesus is sad with all the cold hearted people that say it is a womans choice. Republicans we have till 2010 to get our act together,lets get started.

And Thank "God"!!
The thing is, here, in America, which I agree is the greatest country on earth, we are a democratic republic, not a theocracy. What that means is that we do not govern our nation according to what may, or may not, 'make Jesus sad.'

The only issue is abortion
If that one issue could be reconciled within the GOP, the GOP might have a chance in general elections. If no accommodation by the religious right on abortion, then the GOP will become increasingly irrelevant and the US will be a one-party country.

The use of birth control pills and morning after pills should not be equated to abortion.

Please, give a little ground.


Robert,
You are not getting it.

There can be no "accommodation" on abortion because that would require denying that all human beings have fundamental, inalienable rights -- first among them the right to not be murdered.

If someone who found your existence inconvenient poisoned you with an overdose of sleeping pills you would be just as dead as if he'd chopped you into pieces with an axe or tied concrete blocks to your feet and dumped you off a bridge.

There is no moral difference between a baby killed by a "morning after" pill and one killed by sucking its brains out in a partial-birth abortion.

There can be no "accommodation" between those who believe all humans are equal and those who believe that some people are entitled to kill other people if their existence is inconvenient.

Funny, isn't it?
Funny isn't it?

Any time left-liberals ask for "compromise" what they really mean is that conservatives should abandon their core principles in return for which the left-libs will graciously allow use to lick their boots.

A 24 hour fertilized egg has no brain.
A fetus does. Are we not trying to stop or reduce abortions performed in a hospital or clinic setting? Isn't a start better than nothing?

Human is Human, Robert,
You are either woefully deceived about the facts of biology or your are deliberately attempting to deceive others.

A human is a human. There is no dividing line between conception and natural death of old age where the DNA suddenly changes from "something that might be human one day" to "really human". The moment conception occurs a human being, endowed with all the rights of every human being, exists.

Murdering babies earlier in their development does nothing whatsoever to reduce abortions -- the babies are still being killed.

There is no dividing line between saying that its OK to kill babies before their brains develop to a certain level and shoving the mentally disabled into the gas chamber along with the Jews and anyone else you arbitrarily declare less than human.

Once again, only the conservative position is complete and logically coherent.

Departures from the conservative position all require amazing mental gymnastics and the outright denial of fact in order to gloss over the gaps and contradictions.

Motherof4 - You prove my point...
You wrote:

"There can be no "accommodation" between those who believe all humans are equal and those who believe that some people are entitled to kill other people if their existence is inconvenient."

In other words, per your personal beliefs, there can be no accommodation between a pro-choice Republican and an anti-abortion Republican. How can a concensus be built to challenge Democrats?

Motherof4- Fact or your oinion
You stated:

"The moment conception occurs a human being, endowed with all the rights of every human being, exists."

This is your belief/opinion only. So, if anyone disagrees with your analysis, toss them out of the political process? No possibility of a pro-choice Republican and anti-abortion Republican being able to accommodate one anothers beliefs?? How do we form a concensus as a political entity?

Authoritarians are anti-liberty
"So why do some vocal social moderates and libertarians find it so difficult to coexist with social conservatives?"

'Social conservatives' are really authoritarians more interested in telling others what they can't do than anything else. This is anathema to liberty.

It seems both major parties are dominated by authoritarians of one stripe or another. Liberty is the real loser these days.

Social Conservatives don't bother me.

Social Conservatives never did anything to hurt me or my family.

Liberals have.

Conservatives
Conservatism, at least the unadulterated kind, recognizes as an axiom that nothing in life is free, you have to work for it; be it a house or your liberty. It’s an individual responsibility. This axiom requires that if excesses occur in any direction then a “correcting force” has to restore equilibrium; such as losing your house if you can’t make payments and losing your liberty if you violate someone else’s. This self-regulating mechanism in olden times kept people prudent and they did not live beyond their means as they knew the consequences. In this day and age of “liberalism/socialism”, caution has been thrown to the wind, people indulge in excesses of every kind, they think it is their due, and, in fact, seek perpetual indulgence from others (government usually but not exclusively), which is nothing more than living at the expense of others. Historically, this has been a recipe for weakening a Nation and its people to the point of collapse and then being subjugated by outside forces, usually physically by other more robust Nations but it can be by economic fiat, such as China collecting on our current multi-billion dollar debt. We then become a sort of slaves to these new forces and, of course, all indulgence stops completely and/or is dictated directly by the brutal reality of the forces themselves.

Damage may only be short-term
I agree with the premise that showing the SoCons the door would damage the GOP. I also think that it would strengthen the party in the long run by attracting independents and fiscal conservatives away from voting Democrat because they don't want to be associated with intolerance. The GOP would then return as a serious contender and a legitimate alternative in the minds of many voters turned off for now by the shrill wingers. I think there's a chance those numbers would eventually exceed the number of SoCons lost.

The Same Bozos...
who promoted the McCain nomination are calling for the disenfranchisement of the social conservatives to "strengthen" the party. Enough said about the savvy of that concept.

The quad alliance alluded to by Hillman has been the basis of party success historically and there is absolutely nothing to indicate that the same coalition will not work equally well for us in the future. We keep hearing that we have to "change." That word has a familiar ring to it, hmmm.

Reply to 2 Posters
Jeffersonian Constitutionalist, you wrote: "Social Conservatives never did anything to hurt me or my family. Liberals have."

I can certainly see how you would feel this way if you are talking about fiscal/economic liberals, as it is extremely frustrating to all of us who work to pay such high taxes to finance irresponsible spending.

Since the topic is social conservatives, though, I have to wonder if you might mean you have been harmed by social liberals - if so, I really am curious how, exactly, you have been harmed?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Wandered, you wrote: "I also think that it would strengthen the party in the long run by attracting independents and fiscal conservatives away from voting Democrat because they don't want to be associated with intolerance."

Amen. And Hallelujah. All sarcasm aside, you are absolutely right!

Wouldn't it be easier to simply.........
ask the LGBT Republicans to move along and join the Democrat Party where they belong? Why would a party continue to assume reasoned thinking from neurotic individuals regardless of their positions on limited government, national security and fiscal responsibility if their goals are to continually undermine the traditional and social morays of the family? I see no reason to fracture the two party system because of recalcitrant, socially liberal pseudoRepublicans wishing to protect their assets from their neurotic brethren on the left. We know that fraud was codified into the ALIMPC in 1955 based on the fraudulent and fallacious works of Alfred Kinsey and subsequently, Evelyn Hooker. We know the goal of the socially liberal(LGBT) members of the APA(s) and the ABA is the normalization of neurotic behavior and its associated paraphilias to the uneducated masses and to children by using gay marriage and civil unions, including gay adoption, to knowingly place children in "borderline"(psychiatric term)caretaker environments, regardless of the gender or socieconomic status of the caretaker environment. We know that forty-three years after the revision of the ALIMPC in 1955, social conservatives were finally given federal protections within the public and private sectors, but only because the LGBT community members had become so arrogant as to believe they could sexually assault a social conservative on the job without repercussion. Dave from NY, I daresay that has ever happened to you or any LGBT individual that you know that would withstand scrutiny via MRI polygraph.

The fact is, the majority of the citizenry of the United States of America is not interested in normalizing neurotic behavior and its associated paraphilias, let alone the multiplicity of personality disorders and character neuroses associated with these behaviors, unless you can provide replicable, empirical data. We're still waiting to acquire Kinsey's research to test his methodology.


Wouldn't it be easier.........
If socially liberal America believes we should be like the Eurofreaks in Sweden, excuse me, socialists......convince us with replicable, empirical data to suggest why we should normalize transvestitism and sadomasochism. I'm still waiting for replicable, empirical data to normalize gay adoptions and civil unions. Show us the data, 'cuz there ain't none.

Robert
you write that a fertilized egg has no brain.

True enough, but that 'fertilized egg' is pretty well developed with both brain and heart systems fairly well going along by the time Mom finds she's expecting.

You're not conscious of anything when in deep sleep, unconsciousness or coma, either. Are you 'less' human when you're in that state, when anyone may sneak up on you and do you harm? Why shouldn't the unborn have the right to sleep peacefully in his mother's womb just as you once did, and now do in your own bed?


Dhulme
I don't think you knwo what "normalize" means.

Transvestites or sado-masochists are not "normal" because there are so few of them. That's all normal means.

There is no innate value to being normal. For example, my father dies at the age fo 72. This is quite "normal" but not a good thing. I once made 173 free throws in a row. This is not "normal", but is a very good thing.

In that light, your request is meaningless.



DHulme
DHulme. Are you an idiot, or do you simply play one on TV?

I do not know where you get your information on psychological disorders, or lack thereof, but I do know where responsible members of the therapeutic community get theirs: the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders [DSM-IV] (the 'bible' of psychological diagnosis) - AND, the DSM-IV does not list homosexuality as a disorder. Your facts are as simply wrong as you are misguided in thinking that LBGT Republicans should just go "join the Democrats".

VeritasX.......
Love classic reponses from LGBT idiots. I would suggest you go back and reread the literature before making allegations, specifically, "borderline caretaker environments" and the etiology of abuse specific to BPD. LGBT Republicans should join the Democrat Party.

Secondly, may I suggest you also go back and review the history as to why "homosexuality" was decallsified as a mental disorder?

right vs. wrong
I think we should spend sometime educating the people that are wrong. What do these other Republicans believe or are they just born into the Party?

VeritasX
you are no more "fiscal conservative" than I am a liberal Democrat.

What you are is a liar of dubious sexual inclination pretending to care about the Conservative movement but have never voted for a Republican in your life. Your only interest is sowing dissension.




Chucky-Poo
Well, you obviously know nothing about me, so you must simply be a moron.

I voted for Bush in 2000, and Badnarik in '04. I've admitted voted (with great reservation) Democrat this year though originally I supported McCain (and did not vote Republican only because I could not stand the thought of one of the frothers being President if McCain died in office).

That'd be one Republican, one Democrat, one neither: kind of suggests I am an independent.

I've voted for far more candidates at the local and state level who were Republicans than Democrats - the only time I recall voting Democrat on those levels, in fact, was to throw out another frother, the bigot Rick-the-dick Santorum.

And, yes, actually, I am a small-government fiscal conservative, and I have no desire to create dissension among sane people.

Social conservatism.
The philosophy and tenets of social consevatism need to be platforms that form a foundation of the Republican Party. Social conservatism must never be the be all and end all of the Republican Party. And Social Conservatism should never lean toward one form of religion or moral being or sect or whatever. Therefore, candidates such as Huckleberry, who prefer only Southern Baptists, should be minimilist voices within the party. Republicans need to emphasize the ability to provide good governance. Then Republicans need to demonstrate a record of good governance.

Give it up already!
This column is just another appeal by an establishment Republican Party hack to save a failed political formula. One glance at these posts tells you that this big tent garbage is not working. Our moral differences are not reconcilable. The liberal minority needs to go because they behave like all pushy obnoxious minority liberals. They blame all their failures on the majority and demand that the majority change to accommodate them rather than assimilating. There is no need for two parties that represent the same things. But most important, we have nowhere else to go and they do.

VeritasX
Well, be patient. You don't really need the scorched-earth rhetoric to get rid of us.

The Republican leadership is doing a well-enough job of that on their own.

G
G - "But most important, we have nowhere else to go and they do."

Where, pray tell, do we (if you mean social liberals) have to go?

I can't really support a party that wants to 1.) take MY money and 2.) waste it on big goverment and mismanagement even more so than the Republicans (ALL government, as currently structured, wastes money, and anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something..) assuming you mean the Democrats..

The Democrats are also way too lenient on immigration, and, too soft on terrorism.

Nothing would please me more, trust me, than if there was a "place to go" that offered sane economic policy, limited government, low taxation, and a strong defense, AND had no interest in what I do in my bedroom (or courthouse) and no interest in what my sister does in her doctor's office (or in anything else that is not any one else's business.)

VeritasX
So, you don't think there's any connection between the fact that the Party that is against the things you hold dear is also home for the interest groups that push against the things the social conservatives hold dear?


...and now I go off to work
Actually what I am is a conservative/Republican on matters of taxes, government, and defense, and a liberal/Democrat on social issues.

Which means what I really am, I suppose, is a Libertarian, with the small problem of Libertarians don't win elections, so I sort of have to pick and choose the lesser of evils among the parties that DO win them, at least for the time being while we are entrenched in a two party system.

Battle shaping up
"I sort of have to pick and choose the lesser of evils among the parties that DO win" - VX

I think we finally have arrived at the "Who's the REAL conservative" battle. Each side blames the other for the recent loss, and I foresee a messy purge.

If the authoritarian social conservatives manage to purge the limited-government fiscal conservatives from the party - and that's a real possibility - then the GOP will flounder in steady decline while the country suffers under Democrat spending. The silver lining is that the limited-government fiscal conservatives might finally overcome their fear and follow their conscience to the Libertarian party en masse and help rid us of two-party dominance.

If the battle turns the other direction, I see the GOP gaining new-found strength from voters turned off by SoCons, mostly from younger generations who have contempt for divisive social controls and are more realistic about the scope of government.

No, Robert,
No, Robert, it is not opinion it is SCIENCE.

The moment a human sperm unites with a human egg a human being begins.

There is point from that moment until death from natural causes at advanced age where the developing person changes species.

The newly fertilized egg does not have a point where it might become a human being or it might become an oak tree, a bald eagle, or a dairy cow. It is human from the start and remains human to the end.

That's established, scientific FACT established through many years of embryological and genetic research.

*rolls eyes*

So much for conservative Christians being the "anti-science" crowd.

Cavell,
Since you don't even know that the so-called "Assault rifles" are nothing more than deer rifles with a few black accessories its obvious that your knowledge in other areas is equally suspect.

"Personally, my rationale for it is based on sentience."

At what IQ level do you think its OK to execute the mentally disabled? How much impairment is permitted before you say its OK to murder Grandma since dealing with her dementia is getting inconvenient?

If you can justify the murder of an unborn baby you can justify the murder of any human being. Who finds your life inconvenient?

Cavell,
"we'll also have kids who have no idea how to go about safely having sex."

No rocket science in that straw man. If they've been taught abstinence then they know that they can safely have sex inside the confines of a monogamous marriage.

Given the fallen nature of mankind, we will always have wrongdoing. This does not make wrongdoing right. If wrongdoing is punished while virtue is rewarded there will be more virtue and less wrongdoing.

Consider what happened with smoking. When I was a child smoking was as all-pervasive and the culture of sluttification is today. As a child kids could buy candy cigarettes as they now buy those "Bratz" sl*t dolls.

Less than 50 years later public smoking is considered somewhere between impolite and evil. In movies and on TV a cigarette has replaced the black cowboy hat as the Mark of the Beast for the designated villain.

Abstinence from sex can be taught as readily as abstinence from smoking -- especially since there's no such thing as "safe smoking" while sex can be safely enjoyed within the marriage relationship.
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