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Thursday, January 08, 2009
Larry Elder :: Townhall.com Columnist
Israelis and Palestinians: Who's David, Who's Goliath?
by Larry Elder
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Much of the world buys the line -- peddled by the Palestinians and the Arab Muslim world and, indeed, many Western countries -- that paints Israel as the bad "Goliath" that "stole" the land from the "Palestinians."

Israel gave Gaza self-rule in 1994, unilaterally withdrawing the last of its citizens and soldiers from Gaza in 2005. Hamas, voted into power via free elections in 2006, fought and defeated their political and military rival, Fatah, to seize de facto control of Gaza in 2007. In the past eight years, Hamas has fired more than 10,000 rockets and mortars into Israel -- 7,000 of them after Israel's 2005 withdrawal. With improved technology -- reportedly assisted by Iran -- Hamas' rockets can now fly 24 miles before impact and explosion, thereby threatening, injuring and killing more and more Israelis living in southern Israel.

But why the "disproportionate" response by Israel? Reportedly, more than 600 Palestinians have been killed, some civilians. Set aside for the moment that Hamas' charter specifically calls for the "obliteration" of the state of Israel. And set aside the fact that the Palestinian "militants" fight in heavily populated areas, assuring, indeed encouraging (for PR purposes) civilian casualties.

We turn our attention to the "stolen" allegation.

Israel lies in the ancient Fertile Crescent's southwest corner, with some of the oldest archeological evidence of primitive towns and agriculture. Historians and archeologists believe the Hebrews probably arrived in the area in the second millennium B.C. The nation itself was formed as the Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus, believed to be in the late 13th century B.C.

The 12 tribes of Israel united in about 1050 B.C., forming the Kingdom of Israel. David, the second king of Israel, established Jerusalem as Israel's national capital 3,000 years ago. Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for a millennium.

After conquests by Babylonians, Persians and Greeks, an independent Jewish kingdom was briefly revived in 168 B.C., but Rome took control in the next century, renaming the land of Judea "Palestine" after the Philistines, historical enemies of the Israelites'.

Invading Arabs conquered the land from the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines) in A.D. 638 and attracted Arab settlers. Within a few centuries, the Arab language and Islam prevailed, but a Jewish minority remained. After a brief period of prosperity, waves of invasions and changes of control followed, including rule by the non-Arab empires of the Seljuks, Mamelukes and European crusaders, before becoming part of the Ottoman Empire from 1517 until 1918.

The crusaders massacred thousands of Jews, along with Muslims, in the 11th century. But soon thereafter, European Jews established centers of Jewish learning and commerce. By the time the Ottoman Turks occupied Palestine in the 16th century, according to British reports, as many as 15,000 Jews lived in Safed, which was a center of rabbinical learning. Many more Jews lived in Jerusalem, Hebron, Acre and other locations. By the middle of the 19th century, Jews constituted a significant presence -- often a majority -- in many towns.

Still, in the 19th century, the Holy Land looked mostly like a vast wasteland. When Jews began to return to their "promised land" early in the 20th century, the desert literally began to bloom under their industry. Arabs followed, coming in large numbers for the jobs and prosperity.

After four centuries of Ottoman rule, Britain took the land in 1917 and pledged in the Balfour Declaration to support a Jewish national homeland there. In 1920, the British Palestine Mandate was recognized. A declaration passed by the League of Nations in 1922 effectively divided the mandated territory into two parts. The eastern portion, called Transjordan, would later become the Arab Kingdom of Jordan in 1946. The other portion, comprising the territory west of the Jordan River, was administered as Palestine under provisions that called for the establishment of a Jewish homeland.

The United Nations, in 1947, partitioned the area into separate Jewish and Arab states along meandering and indefensible boundaries. The Arab world, insisting that any Jewish claim to Palestine was invalid, staunchly refused to compromise or even discuss the subject.

When Israel's independence was declared in 1948, Arab forces from Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq combined to crush the 1-day-old country. They lost. Still, Egypt occupied most of the Gaza Strip, and Transjordan (calling itself "Jordan") held most of the West Bank and half of Jerusalem. Neither Arab country gave the "Palestinians" a state.

The word "Palestinian," as employed today, is a relatively recent term. Until the end of the British mandate over Palestine, in 1948, all inhabitants of the area west of the Jordan River were known as "Palestinians." A Jewish person living in what is now Israel was a "Palestinian Jew." An Arab living in the area was a "Palestinian Arab." Likewise, a Christian was known as a "Palestinian Christian."

Israel won more land after a series of wars, land since returned or offered for return in exchange for peace. The Jews "stole" nothing.

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About The Author
Larry Elder is a syndicated radio talk show host and best-selling author. His latest book, "What's Race Got to Do with It?" is available now.
 
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David SLEW goliath
And so too must Israel slay hamas. Kill them, ONE and ALL. Until that is done, this will NEVER end. Unless of course the palestinians get THEIR WISH and Israel is deatroyed.

Thanks Larry
Let’s be real here this is not the first time I’ve posted this.

It makes know difference what the Omarxist does, Leon Panetta or not, the radical Islamists are happy to watch America destroy its own protection.
Mark my words. WE WILL NOT BE ATTACKED WITHIN MAIN LAND AMERICA OVER THE NEXT 4 TO 8 YEARS.
Why should they attack us when our own GOV is destroying us from within, they will wait, the will wait till they see were we go with our security measures /with our politics then they will attack.
This is not a war measured by our 8 year cyclic it’s a war far into the future.
They will win if we stay on the course we’re on.

Study ALL the History

For reasons of PRACTICAL necessity, I support Israel's right to exist and defend its own people. However, the author of this article seriously needs to study the history of the Irgun and Stern organizations . . . BEFORE declaring, in such a categorical fashion, that NOTHING was stolen by any Zionists.

Well spoken Larry, the
media portrays Israel as the aggressor and in reality Hamas has been shelling Israel for a long time and still are.

As far as Israel's right to a country, God gave them this land and nobody has the right to take it away and it should not be given away for peace which is an illusion anyway!

OBAMA, GAZA AND JOHN MCCAIN
Let's cut to the chase: if John McCain were President-elect he would be standing firmly behind Israel in the Gaza War. Obama's silence isn't golden, if he stood behind Israel he would say so. The Clintonization of his administration with Hillary as his secratary of state tells us what Obama plans to do; it tells us he plans to return to the failed polices of the Clinton era on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

If the Gaza War is still raging when Obama takes office he will surely pressure Israel into accepting a cease fire and like Clinton play the ridiculous role of honest broker in the conflict; the role that turned Clinton into the arse of the world when the murdering, Jew hating Yassir Arafat-an evil twisted toxic leopard who never changed his spots-predictably kicked him in the groin, rejected his peace plan and started the second intefada which relentlessly continues today.

Obama's silence foreshadows the errant policies of a profoundly naive and foolish man who is about to attempt an impossible peace and relive the disasters of the past. As Dante said in the Inferno: "The hottest places of hell are reserved for those who are neutral in the war of good verses evil." In wanting to be neutral in the war between evil Palestinians who live and die for Israel's destruction and Israeli Jews who want reconciliation and peace Obama will bring hell upon himself and make the world a more deadly and dangerous place.



HansFury
you are spamming to no good purpose. Stop it.

When I was young I recall there was a Blue Box in every Jewish household where pennies and small change were dropped whenevery possible and the contents of these boxes were gathered to BUY land in Palestine where Jews could be settled. I am convinced that a lot of the Arabs now crying that the land was STOLEN were actually paid cash money for land that Israelis have title to.

The Arabs want to exterminate the Jews because they are angry that the Jews proved the Arabs could have made the desert bloom if only they were not butt lazy beggars. Kind of like the Atlanta area Blacks who insist the Koreans and Vietnamese and Laotians are succeeding after only 5 or 6 years in America while the Blacks live in squalor, NOT because the former groups work hard and save and build, but because they are STEALING secret government handouts that ought to be given to Blacks.

AudiR10
Amen, and it ain't just happening in Atlanta.

Thanks Larry

We all need a history lesson now and then...some more than others.

Harry Truman, back when democrats were a far different breed, said, "The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know".

It must be a whole new world to students of our public education system.

Am Yisroel, Am Segulah
Oh Please Hashem, they hold the only power that can teach the world of absolute futility and warn of impending disaster. They have the most powerful weapon in the world, Prayer. Please open their eyes and bring them back to You. In the zchuss of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, in the memory of Dovid Ha Melech and Yossef HaZaddik, l'had lik ner shel Am Yisroel to be the true Light unto the nations.

A Ness Nigla as you performed in 1967 (5727), Hashem.
You did it then, 42 years ago which is 6 X 7, very significant warning, Sir. Let the Chanina ben Dosa's of our generation realize their strength and call this a time of change in the Jewish heart and mind, period.

As great Tzaddiks are the one's with the words to change the generation, dor v dor, let the great Torah Sages of today call this Rashit and not ketz. Please, Hashem, please. Todah.

It is hypocrisy beyond belief
that many liberals rail against the so-called greed of people in the United States because they don’t want to let the government have all their money. They also condemn big business for greed. Greed seems to be a major concern of liberals who always want to champion the cause of the poor.

Yet the Jews of Israel want a country for themselves that is about equal in size to the city of New Jersey and liberals think this is unreasonable. Arabs in the Middle East control all the rest of the land, but are they considered greedy by those who condemn Israel? Are these Arabs condemned because they won’t let the Jews have a tiny portion of land for themselves? No! The Arabs must have all the land because…because… well just because they want it all!

Who is greedy here? The Israelis who want only a tiny portion of land for their own where they can live in peace, or the Palestinians who could settle in any other place in the Middle East but want Israel?

Another hypocrisy is the way liberals are always concerned by minorities, yet the Jews in the Middle East are a tiny minority with the entire remaining population of the Middle East out to destroy them, and who do the liberals support? The minority Jews? No!! They support the majority Muslim, Islamofascists who have stated their main goal in life is the eradication of Jews from the planet.

Pffff
Don't bother us with facts, Larry. Palestinians are the new poster children because Che is dead, and native Americans have all opened casinos and gotten fat.

drawing lines
I don't know the history of that area of the world well so this was interesting....

seems that there was always of mix of this and that living there and that no one really had title, that there were no real lines drawn in the sand...

seems to me that this conflict, these disputes are over just that...

so the question still begs...

does anyone have a "right" to define land that's been disputed for thousands of years.

and as far as I know, Ibrahim was not born there, and was not a jew, but "said" that "God" spoke to him and told him to go to this place...

today that would be suspect...at best.


avery
You can only hope and pray that you could think with the clarity of AudiR10. Not going to happen, though.

Seems you're another "blamin' black" who has come to TH today to soil the landscape. Then again, people like you are often entertaining.

Can you explain this news article other than saying "it's the fault of whites"?

http://www.city-journal.org/2009/eon0105hm.html

Mr. Elder just gave you a history lesson that should have taught you something. You should consider working at modeling his practice of rigorous honesty, the Jewish method of working industriously, and Larry's devotion to solid scholarship.


How to stop the liberal press?
Larry; You and all the rest of the conservative groups are beginning to look like King Kanute, trying to stem the waves and the tides from destroying our village, or country, whatever the case. As long as the liberal press controll 90% of our media, that aint gonna happen. How can we, you and I and the rest of the conservatives stop the liberal media? Get a hold of the media, or at least 50% of it. Most, if not all, of the liberal media, except for NBC, who is controlled by General Electric, are going broke and is for sale. It's time for one or more of our rich conservative Moguls to step up to the plate and buy some of these liberal medias, that are going broke, and begin to turn the minds of the majority of the American people back to the CONSTITUTION. Come on fellas, step up to the plate and get down and dirty with these liberal media types. I, for one, is willing to throw in my lot, and whatever money I have to throw in the plate, is willing. How can we get enough conservatives to do the same?

Question:
Of all the violence going on in the world at the moment, why does an action by Israel against crazies in the Gaza area gain so much outraged writing and whining by conservative columnists?
The fact must be pointed out again and again -- support or lack thereof for Israel has NOTHING to do with conservatism.



How to stop the liberal media?
Larry; You and all the rest of the conservative groups are beginning to look like King Kanute, trying to stem the waves and the tides from destroying our village, or country, whatever the case. As long as the liberal press controll 90% of our media, that aint gonna happen. How can we, you and I and the rest of the conservatives stop the liberal media? Get a hold of the media, or at least 50% of it. Most, if not all, of the liberal media, except for NBC, who is controlled by General Electric, are going broke and is for sale. It's time for one or more of our rich conservative Moguls to step up to the plate and buy some of these liberal medias, that are going broke, and begin to turn the minds of the majority of the American people back to the CONSTITUTION. Come on fellas, step up to the plate and get down and dirty with these liberal media types. I, for one, is willing to throw in my lot, and whatever money I have to throw in the plate, is willing. How can we get enough conservatives to do the same?

Mary Hogan
Who needs Yahweh -- J.R. "Bob" Dobbs can show you how to achieve Slack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius


buck

If we could just put pressure, maybe boycott, the worst offender of the msm, Fox Fake News, we could start to get back our former pride and honor.

For example; "Bill O'Reilly again falsely claimed that the Army Field Manual "says, quote, 'You are not to make any captured person uncomfortable in any way.' " In fact, the Army Field Manual includes an entire section on "Interrogation Operations," which includes several techniques and strategies that make detainees "uncomfortable."

and,

"Dick Morris baselessly claimed that Al Franken is "cheating" in the Minnesota Senate race, that "Minnesota's doing it for him," and that "[t]his is outright larceny" and "a total theft." As evidence, Morris again repeated the debunked claim that in Minnesota, "[t]here's a county where there are 177 more votes than there are voters."

Correct
Your historical descriptions are correct and there is nothing ethnically that distingushes Palistininas from Jordanians. As to the arab states giving statehood to the Palsitinians not only did that not happen, it has never happened in other words no Arab country has given land up to allow the formation of a state for one of its ethnic minorities.

Many of the boundies of arab states was done after WWI when the Ottoman Empire was defeated. So the same arguements could be made for Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc.

Many of the jews now living in Israel emmigated from the tyrany of Arab Countries. An especially large group came from yemen. WHen the Jews of Etheopia were in trouoble Israel came to the rescue and resettled them inspite of the fact that they are culturally more african and all racially black.

Arab counties on the other hand did nothing to help resettle the Palistinians on their vast arab lands. The refugee camps that have operated for more than 60 years are run not by Isreal, but by the UN. It is the schools that were funded by the UN that taught math class to Palistinians children that said if you kill one jew and then another jew how many have you killed.

This dispute on the arab side is not about land, it is about the assumed insult of having a jewish state in their region.

As to Isreal, it is certainly not perfect. For a time it believed that it could slowy integrate the west bank and Gaza into Israel and actually provided incentives for the creation of settlement that it then had to defend by limiting the free flow of Palistinians.

As time when on the impractically of the approach began to dawn on many Israelies even some former hawks like Sharon. A two state solution seemed to be the only possible road to peace. But Israel continues to build settlement making that solution even more difficult and emboldens the hardliners on the other side.

Still Israelies have been more willing partners for peace.

Disregarding, and Bravo!
Disregarding all of the puerile, hate-filled drivel, constituting most of the comments found here--unfortunately increasingly on all Townhall.com column pages--Mr. Elder, what you have recorded is NOT what history "professors," in the vast majority of colleges and universities are "teaching." In both my stints in college, I tried my best to point out what you have stated so succinctly, but was met with derision at best, and at worst, unofficial mal-grading, particularly in classes dealing with the Middle East.

As has been said countless times, over centuries, people, regardless of culture or ethnicity, do not learn from our mistakes, because we do not learn ABOUT our mistakes. No culture demands that its members truly learn of their historical record--except orthodox Jews! Orthodox Judaism demands that its people learn their heritage and ancestral record in minute detail. Some older, still "primitivt" cultures do maintain an oral tradition which comes much closer than any of our "sophisticated," modern societies, but those "4th-world" peoples are not involved in the conflicts, about which modern media bombards us with mis-information and outright dissembling.

Mr. Elder, I applaud your article and you!

JM
You don't believe any of that stuff you just jotted down? Please, go to your library and get a book, from an unbiased historian.

Ideally
Ideally one would want a rule such that people who talk about Israel pulling out of Gaza who don't note that they kept control of the borders and airspace, and all flow of goods into and out of the region should simply be laughed at as either being dishonest or not knowing what they are talking about.

Unfortunately that would shut up almost all discussion of the region, and it is probably better to have uninformed discussion than no discussion.

It really is not that surprising that people under a compelte military seige would act in a beligerant factor. In fact we would expect it from human beings. The oddity is why it is supposed to represent something strange that it is how Palestinians behave.

Elder's description of how the Israelis got Israeli sound like the old descriptions of how we replaced the Indians. Of course at some point we grew up as a country and admitted that things were not quite as pretty as all that. In Israel, for the most part, they have grown up to. But in the US such silliness is still put forward sometimes as if it is to be taken seriously.

God Has Spoken
It's not that hard to figure out who's side God is on. He "changeth not". He told the Israelis (Israel means Prince of God) that "I give you this land as a possession FOREVER." Did He lie? Was He mistaken? Did He not see the future? Think about it!

Excuse me Rosemary.
God did not give the land to the Israelites. Yahweh (God) made a covenant (a contract) with Israel for the land. You, the people, follow the 10 Commandments and the Law and you get the land. The current Israelis murder Palestinians, steal their land and water, bear false witness against them and covet their remaining possessions. Under the terms of the covenant, soon Yahweh will use Israel’s neighbors to take the land from them as He has done at least four times in the past. This was the warning of the Biblical prophets, and it is the warning now. Think about it Rosemary. Or at least try reading scripture.

To sum your history Larry
To sum up your history Larry, Israel actually controlled the land we call Palestine for a small portion of the last 2800 years since Abraham first walked from modern Iraq to Canaan. After the Exodus there was a brief moment (a few hundred years) when the Jews controlled most of Palestine, but even then Palestine was split into two kingdoms due to infighting. The Assyrians wiped out the Northern Kingdom of Israel in the 8th century bc, and the Babylonians wiped out the Southern Kingdom in the 5th century bc. Since the time of Abraham, the Jews actually controlled the land for less than half the time various Muslims controlled the land (that is, from the 8th to the 20th centuries).

But that is not the point. Rather the point is that Israel, since 1967 especially, has been stealing life, land, water, freedom and dignity from the Palestinians. This is the stealing most of the world sees and condemns.

Since 2003 peace has been on the table from the whole Arab League in return for a return to the 67 boundaries. Israel doesn’t even negotiate this offer peace because it appears they want land, water and control more than peace.

Israel
Great article sometimes the true is hard to swallow but it’s still the true. You be surprised to learn that the expert, Professor Wagstaff, agrees with you. You can read his thoughts at, http://stopthepresses2.blogspot.com/2009/01/professor-wags taffs-thoughts-on-israel.html

Neither One is David, nor Goliath…
Both sons of Abraham, it is really Isaac vs. Ishmael… brothers by blood, but mortal enemies in life. By necessity this fight is a fight to the death. Seeing BOTH of them dying in mortal combat could provide a problem solving outcome for the rest of the world.

"Can't we all just get along?" …was a stupid statement by the racist Rodney King of LA. It is equally stupid when applied to Jews and Muslims. The answer is, and will always be… "NO!"

I wish they'd just "get it on" already.

Istael is about 1/3 of NJ
A return to '48 boundaries returns much of Jerusalem to the West Bank and pinches Israel's middle so narrowly that one of Hama's rockets fired laterally could easily land in Lebanon.

Israel returned the Golan Heights to Syria, a mistake, as firing from them covers almost all of the N-S span of the entire Israeli nation.

This small piece of land carved out of the Palestinina Portectorate of 1918 is surrounded by 50,000,000 Muslims, mostly Arabs, who have sworn for 60 years to annihilate Israel and every Jew living there, using all means possible--including nuclear weapons, Arafat and Ahmadinejad.

Israel should've gone to Cairo and Damascus in either 67 or 73 and shown the Arabs what real conquest looks like. But Isrealis always capitulated to the idiot UN (which has perpetuated the conflict by maintaining the *refugee* status of Palestinians as nowhere else int he world) and us.

Israel has as much right to exist and defend itself as does Poland, which was once partitioned by Russia, Germany, and the Austro-Hungarians until Poland disappeared and was not fulling restored until post-WW II.

Shame
"..at least 700 Palestinians, including 219 children, have died in Gaza since Israel began its assault on December 27th. More than 3,000 people have been wounded. Ten Israelis have died over the same thirteen-day period, including seven soldiers, four of them by so-called friendly fire."

"I am certain the world will judge the Jewish state by the way it will treat the Arabs".

- Chaim Weizmann, President of Israel (1949-1952)

Actually Thomas
Many of the "Palestinians" are descended from Esau aka Edom (Abraham's grandson--and not through illegitimate Ishmael, nor post-Sarah legitimate sons of Keturah)--read Obadiah and Malachi for some more info on them.

Irrelevant
Any attempt to explicate the current situation on historical grounds is counterproductive. Anyone supporting the Palestinian "cause" can produce an equally valid History showing why all of Israel really belongs to the group we now call Palestinians. There is no answer to be found in History: this is a rare case where history is irrelevant.

The reality on the ground has to be the basis for thinking about the Middle East. Israel exists and it is not going away. Period. There was a war. Great powers parceled out the land. The question now is whether and and how the Palestinians and Arabs can ever move forward.

Palestinians are Arabs
When the Protectorate was split in 1948, Israel was the Jewish state and Jordan was the Palestinina state. But the Great Mufti in Constantinople order Palestinians to fight Israel, thus began the 1948 war which has only been interrupted by times of uneasy truces for 60 years.

Palestininas are like Dutch descendants who fled to PA when Charles II bought part of New Amsterdam and called it New Jersey. The New Amdsterdamians who fled to PA claim NJ is illegitimate, make terroristic incursions, and lob missles at South Jersey. Once in a while, NJ gets fed up with having its civilians killed and terrorized by the revenant New Amsterdamians who have never in centuries became PA citizens but who demand a right of return to NJ and the annihilation of New Jerseyans, driving them militarily into the sea (Atlantic Ocean), and invades Philadelphia.

Then the UN, who have kept the New Amsterdamians in squalor and servitude in perpetual refugee camps, takes to tv to bewail the plight of New Amsterdamian children and civilians while denigtating and castigating New Jersey troops. All the MSM gnashes its teeth and tears its hair over the terrible New Jerseyans who want to live in peace but feel forced to war every year or two to stop the New Amsterdamians' chronic assaults and murders.

Israel should stay in Gaza until Hamas in annihilated. There will be no peace as long as their is no victory.

A covenant
amonk7 cites Leviticus 18:28 and 20:22, where Yahweh promises the people that if they refuse to live in agreement with his ways, they will lose the land which he is giving them. They refused, and lost it to the Assyrians and the Babylonians. Yahweh brought people back from Babylon, and restored the land to them--until they rejected the Anointed Servant (Hebrew: Messiah, Greek: Christ) whom he sent to them. This Messiah gave them a brief history lesson in one of his parables (Luke 20:8-19), and the rulers knew that he was telling them that they were rejected by Yahweh becasue they had rejected his Servant.
It was not long before the nation was destroyed again, and the majority of the people were scattered. Those who accepted the Messiah knew that Jerusalem was no longer the Center of their faith, but they could worship Yahweh properly wherever they were.
The nation of Israel exists today, but it is not a continuation of ancient Israel. It is attacked because it is not Muslim and dares to exert sovereignty over an area that was under Muslim rule for many centuries.

Some other history...
In August of 1947, less than one year before the UN established the State of Israel, Colonial India was granted independence by the British. The plan for independence called for the establishment of two separate nations. India’s leading Muslims demanded the “partitioning” of India into two separate nations and, thus, the Islamic state of Pakistan materialized out of thin air.

The Muslim's claim to this particular area, as a “homeland,” was no more valid (some might say it less valid) than the Jewish claim to “Palestine.” Yet Muslims fully believed in their right to rip apart a sovereign nation in order to create a Muslim state.

India's Muslims did not want to become part of a free India; they wanted their own homeland. And, of course, the British acquiesced.

(Having been granted their wish, Muslims then proceeded to make continual war on India over “disputed” regions they also wanted to possess. This war included carrying out terrorists attacks within India itself.)

In the early stages of Pakistan’s creation upwards of 7 million Muslims were relocated from India to Pakistan, while a like number of Hindus and Sikhs moved in the opposite direction. This massive cross-border migration lead to upwards of one million deaths, as group set upon group in violent ethnic clashes.

Yet, only months later, when the UN mandated that the Jews be allowed to create a homeland Muslims took this as an affront to Islam and they have been at war with Israel ever since. (Sound familiar?)

Clearly, in its quest for world domination, the Islamic movement has but one rule; what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is also mine.
Bastone-like, Israel sets at the crossroads of Islam’s global conquest. For how can Islam claim domination over all people, when a non-Islamic nation exists in its heartland?

A side-bar note: There are over 3,000 mosques in America, but not one Christian church in Saudi Arabia. Who's conquering whom?


Renny
Your hope is an impossibility

Israel cannot destroy Hamas. Destroying hamas means radicalizing another group, who will become the new Hamas. Israel knows quite well that "victory" in the sense you describe, will not bring peace.


renny, lets have the truth
"This small piece of land carved out of the Palestinina Portectorate of 1918 is surrounded by 50,000,000 Muslims, mostly Arabs, who have sworn for 60 years to annihilate Israel and every Jew living there, using all means possible--including nuclear weapons, Arafat and Ahmadinejad."

Egypt has long stopped wanting to "annihillae Israel"

Arafat recognized Israelis right to exist.

"At several points in his speech, Mr. Arafat gave implicit recognition to Israel's right to exist, notably when he said that any Middle East peace settlement must ''respect'' all countries' ''right to exist in peace and security.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1D8123F F937A25751C1A96E948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Ahmadinejad is a jerk, but he never said he wanted to kill all Jews, and would, if that were his intention, start on Iran's Jews, the second largest population in the world.



debishop
You're stuck in a time warp.

Many Muslim countries have come to the conclusion that Israel is not going anywhere and are befriending them. Egypt has been a willing partner in the demise of Hamas and Jordan and Saudi Arabia condemn Hamas as well. The sticking point are the thousands of homeless Palestinian refugees who haven't a country and are on the losing end of the stick. Investigate what's happening in the West Bank.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/activestills/2181019819/

http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/2007/09/it-is-un just-an.html#comments


Israel is full of wonderful people, who deserve a homeland and to live in safety, but the actions of their neocons, as stated in this thread, are not going to lead to peace, but more hatred and more bloodshed.

KABC WAS STUPID TO LET LARRY ELDER GO
Once again Larry Elder proves that he can counter emotional reaction with hard facts. For reasons unknown, his voice is no longer heard on KABC, perhaps because he argued with pseudo-conservatives McIntyre and Rantel. His was the last true conservative voice on that station and they have lost many listeners.

True, but
"Israel lies in the ancient Fertile Crescent's southwest corner, with some of the oldest archeological evidence of primitive towns and agriculture. Historians and archeologists believe the Hebrews probably arrived in the area in the second millennium B.C. The nation itself was formed as the Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus, believed to be in the late 13th century B.C."

True, but pointless to the debate now. Most Jews that now live in Israel are no more related to those that existed there in the first century than I am. Be like a bunch of American blacks going over Africa to retake Ghana. Should we give Poland back to Mongolia too?

Gaza and the West Bank were taken from sovereign states and like East Timor, their occupation has never been recognized by the UN or the world community--including the United States. Should Hitler have been allowed to keep France? But they (the Arabs) were going to attack (a highly debatable position in 1967, but a debate for another time). Okay, Stalin took Eastern Europe as a buffer against future German attacks too (so was his claim), should the Soviets have been allowed to keep Poland then? Should China keep Tibet (in the 7th century Tibet attacked China, never know, they could do it again)?

Apollo
"and like Clinton play the ridiculous role of honest broker in the conflict..."

The US can't be a honest broker, because the US is Israeli's lackey and the Arabs know it. To be a honest broker you have to be neutral don't you and as the countless US vetos show, the US is hardly that. And weren't you prediciting a GOP victory in 2008 based on these various number cycles? How did that work out for you?

AKagi, yes but no
I believe the US can have a constructive role in the Middle East, even if its not entirely neutral. It would all depend on the beliefs of the parties involved.

You are correct about about the History. Trying to resolve the middle east conflict based on thousand year olf history is a waste of time. What is, is. That shoudl be our position.

debishop
"Yet, only months later, when the UN mandated that the Jews be allowed to create a homeland Muslims took this as an affront to Islam and they have been at war with Israel ever since. (Sound familiar?)

Clearly, in its quest for world domination, the Islamic movement has but one rule; what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is also mine.
Bastone-like, Israel sets at the crossroads of Islam’s global conquest. For how can Islam claim domination over all people, when a non-Islamic nation exists in its heartland?

A side-bar note: There are over 3,000 mosques in America, but not one Christian church in Saudi Arabia. Who's conquering whom?"

It works both ways doesn't it--I can argue you support a non-Muslim minority ripping territory from a Muslim majority under colonial rule, but don't support a Muslim minority doing the same thing?

Because Saudi Arabia doesn't have freedom of religion--would you like to see that in the US. Christian-only?

Golan
Have not been returned.

Rosemary
"It's not that hard to figure out who's side God is on. He "changeth not". He told the Israelis (Israel means Prince of God) that "I give you this land as a possession FOREVER." Did He lie? Was He mistaken? Did He not see the future? Think about it!"

And which God is this? I bet the Palestinians claim Allah said something else. Pretty silly to argue geopolitics over what God did or did not say and may not even exist or if he does may be having words placed in his or her mouth by mere mortals.

"This land was given to us by God." "How do you know?" "I read it in the Holy Book." "Who wrote that?" "Men inspired by God" "How do you know that?" "They told me." "Oh..okay, that works."


Lon
"Ideally one would want a rule such that people who talk about Israel pulling out of Gaza who don't note that they kept control of the borders and airspace, and all flow of goods into and out of the region should simply be laughed at as either being dishonest or not knowing what they are talking about."

They also have check points all over the place turning 15 minute drives into hours as they force the locals to drive along routes they approve of. In truth, Israel still basically controls the land as you stated. Like saying Tibet is a Self-Autonomous Region (which is what China calls it). You only believe it is autonomous if you are blind. Total myth, just like the Palestinians controlling their own land.

JM
IS there anything that makes a Taiwanese different from a Chinese or a person in Neimenggu from someone in Mongolia. How is Singapore different from Malaysia? Should it follow then that Singapore should be back in Malaysia (Yes, I know the Malays basically expelled it), do you hold the Chinese position that Taiwan should be part of China? How about Mongolia? Is there any difference ethnically from whites in Canada and those in say Maine?

Or from Americans and Brits? Should self-determination be denied to the Palestinians just because they are Arabs?

debishop @ 12:28 wrote
"India's Muslims did not want to become part of a free India; they wanted their own homeland. And, of course, the British acquiesced."

Not quite. It was Jinnah (a highly nonobservant "Muslim"--he accounted for over half of Sindh's whisky consumption at anytime, had bacon for breakfast everyday, and knew squat of Koran) who actually started demanding a separate homeland. I have had many Bangla Muslim colleagues and classmates (and one ex-professor at UCalgary), and asked them if the Muslim Bengalis actually wanted to join Pakistan--and I've gotten the consistent answer of "the only ones who were asked on this issue were Jinnah's Muslim League toadys; Bengal could easily have been part of India, or (with Assam and Northeastern states) been completely viable independent nation--in either case, it would not have been wrecked royally by a near-quarter-century of Pakistani goondacracy".

Also, over one-third of the Subcontinent's Muslims opted to STAY PUT IN INDIA (perhaps some saw that Pakistan would only generate to goondacracy, which it did by 1951)--which was larger number of Muslims than either wing of Pakistan achieved EVEN AFTER the migrations.

BTW, Indian Muslims consistently featured in post-Partition Cabinets and military officer corps. The country's first Education Minister (not a token post) and one Home Minister (admittedly short tenure of 1989-1990; but the post is like combining Chief Justice SCOTUS and Attorney General in one) were Muslims as has one Air Force Chief Of Staff (1978-1981, Idris Latif) and three Presidents.

An aside: I've been asked the question more than once by Pakistanis "what has India done for its Muslims" to which I invariably always retort "what has Pakistan done for ITS Muslims"--which they can NEVER answer (coherently or otherwise--and I don't even have to mention "Operation Searchlight"!).

AudiR10
Good so if Mexicans come and buy land in California and then decide they want that land to be part of Mexico or a new state called say Nuevo Aztlan or Norte Aztlan or whatever, you are okay with that? Buying land doesn't give you the right to take that land and form a new state with it nor use terrorist tactics to accomplish that goal. Recall the Irgun? I guess terrorism by Jews is acceptable, but those by Arabs is not.

To AudiR10
"I am convinced that a lot of the Arabs now crying that the land was STOLEN were actually paid cash money for land that Israelis have title to."

Interestingly, English visitors described Ottoman Palestine in the later 19th century as being largely unpopulated (which is clear from the fact that so very much of it only came into cultivation after more Jews started arriving, sometimes with foreign financing, later in the 19th century and in the early 20th). These visitors claimed that most of the land was owned by absentee landlords from Syria and Turkey who had no interest in developing it.
This fact was demonstrated in the later 19th century, and on up to the 1920's when immigrating Jews had to buy the legal titles from Syrians and Turks, not from local Arabs. You see, one of the most common form of land tenure in Islamic states at this time was wealthy-landowner and tenant-farmer; another common form was 'squatting' -- poor farmers living on land unclaimed by the wealthy, but without any actual title other than physical occupation.

It is not perhaps surprising that the tenant-farmers resented the landowners from selling the land next door, or even the land under their feet, to Jews. But unless one wants to impose American views of land tenure on other cultures, then the landowners had that right.

What is particularly interesting is this: if many of the Palestinian Arab inhabitants had only a de facto occupation claim to the land (and that based on prior *conquest*), then why not honor as valid the de-facto occupation claim (based on conquest) of Israel in the occupied territories? There is, in principle, no difference! (I am not advocating this policy, but its an interesting intellectual exercise)

A detail for debishop
On the Muslim Home Minister: Mufti Mohamed Sayid's term was short due to his being elected in V.P. Singh's rather tenuous (euphemism for almost completely unworkable) government (of which even the successor government, which relied on Outside Support from Opposition, collapsed in 1991 on an issue tangentially-related to Gulf War).

Tallil2long
"Interestingly, English visitors described Ottoman Palestine in the later 19th century as being largely unpopulated (which is clear from the fact that so very much of it only came into cultivation after more Jews started arriving, sometimes with foreign financing, later in the 19th century and in the early 20th). These visitors claimed that most of the land was owned by absentee landlords from Syria and Turkey who had no interest in developing it."

Which was the same story told by pro-Apartheid supporters in South Africa. "There was nothing here until the whites came."


svpallava

Are you familiar with the terrorist situation that took place in Northern Ireland and why peace finally came after so many years of hate and bloodshed?

Taft...
I think you're the one who's deluded—struck in some kind of mind-warp where common sense has been replace with political silliness.

Muslim leaders can say anything they want for public consumption—especially when speaking to the West’s gullible left.

Egypt has made nice with Israel for fear of losing the billions we pour into that corrupt cesspool. And, exactly what proof do you have that Egypt is a “willing partner in the demise of Hamas”?

The same can be said of Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Just where do you think the funding for all those hate-spewing madrasahs’s comes from? Saudi Arabia is the home of Wahabism and I don’t believe it’s done much to undermine its vile influence on Islamic thinking.

So, with a wink and a nod, Saudi Arabia “condemns” Hamas and you think Peace is at hand?

And spare us Karma Nabulsi’s Palestinian propaganda. She’s not someone I’d cite as an independent broker on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict—seeing as how she was once, and probably still is, a Palestinian operative (…er, “representative”) and an ardent supporter of the Palestinian cause.

As for your photographic “proof” of how Israel is oppressing the West Bank (with a few rocks piled up in a semi-circle at the side of the road and a rag-tag group of civilians milling around) it lacks drama and impact, if you know what I mean.

As for all those “thousands” of Palestinian refugees who are homeless; why, pray tell, don’t they make homes in Gaza or the West Bank? Oh, right, I forgot, the Israelis are oppressing them and they just can’t seem to rise above it.


To akagi
"Which was the same story told by pro-Apartheid supporters in South Africa. "There was nothing here until the whites came."

True, but irrelevant. Have you evidence that Palestine was NOT largely unpopulated in the late 19th century?

History isn't enough
Mr. Elder packed a lot of history into this column. For that he deserves the TH readers' thanks. However, as an academic who is exposed to lots of leftists who are hostile to Israel, I will say that even a generally accurate history isn't enoiugh to deal with the problem. As far as I can tell--summarizing here the views of both Palestinian students and faculty, as well as other Arabs---only the elimination of Israel would be a satisfactory result. Hard-core militants want this to be done by war, moderates want the Israelis to yield to international pressure and give their land to the Palestinians. Oh, and by the way, Israel would have to stop being a Jewish state.

This is why the early history of who settle din the region, etc. is irrelevant to today's conflict. It is because the Jews are Jews that they have no legitimate claim to any of the land they occupy. The land belongs to Arabs and Arabs alone; any Jewish claim is inherently wrong. That's what I hear in academia. When I cover the Middle East, I teach the same history Mr. Elder teaches, but I see that it has even less power to provoke second thoughts now than it did 40 years ago.

Renny
"This small piece of land carved out of the Palestinina Portectorate of 1918 is surrounded by 50,000,000 Muslims, mostly Arabs, who have sworn for 60 years to annihilate Israel and every Jew living there..."

... which seems to make it a remarkably stupid place to establish a country. Sort of a "Darwin Award" for nation building there.



debishop
"I think you're the one who's deluded—struck in some kind of mind-warp where common sense has been replace with political silliness. "

Maybe, but point our where I err, and I correct myself.

"Egypt has made nice with Israel for fear of losing the billions we pour into that corrupt cesspool. And, exactly what proof do you have that Egypt is a “willing partner in the demise of Hamas”?"

Not true. Egypt legitimately hates Hams, a kin of their hated Muslim Brotherhood.


"The same can be said of Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Just where do you think the funding for all those hate-spewing madrasahs’s comes from? Saudi Arabia is the home of Wahabism and I don’t believe it’s done much to undermine its vile influence on Islamic thinking. "

Its true, the Saudis helped along the Taliban but, the Kingdom is making progress and the King and high level Muslim leaders have condemn, in no uncertain terms, the badness of killing innocents, and leaving S.A. for jihad.

The rest of your post gets even sillier and not worth comment.








Gestell is Right
The history is irrelevant. Any historical discusssion becomes a neverending wrangle about "facts" which the other side will never accept. An argument based on history will inevitably lead to the conclusion that each side of the debate has equally valid historical justification.

But, the reality is that Israel is going to continue to exist regardless of the history. SPend your time trying to figure out a way forward, not endlessly rehashing the essentially meaningless past.

Second to akagi
Who owns unclaimed, unoccupied land? Different cultures have different ideas of land tenure. A nomadic clan might claim that the entire trace along which they seasonally migrate is theirs, though that may be many thousands of square miles for only a few hundred claimants. Settled folk would claim that an area is unoccupied if nobody is farming on it. Herders would suggest that seasonal pasturage constitutes ownership.

The argument currently being waged, however, revolves around two peoples who recognize legal titles of ownership (though with differing codes of law), versus 'squatting', here meaning permanently occupying and cultivating a piece of land.

If Jews bought land that all parties recognized as being legally owned by Syrian landowners, then their claim is valid. Much of the land Israel holds was of this sort.
Further, if the untitled 'squatters' had the right of settlement based on the fact that their ancestors had conquered the land from others, then why would not Israel have the same right of conquest?

Taft your comparison is atrocious
The little fact that Ulster and Ireland both are of Celtic stock and the absence of written-in-religious-text rancour between Catholics and Protestants (Koran specifically urges hatred against Jews and Christians, as well as other non-Muslims) seems to have escaped you entirely.

Nice day
I've got to go, but will try to look back in to learn more. Have a great day everyone, if not.

To Gestell
"The land belongs to Arabs and Arabs alone"

I would ask those people 'Why?' After all, the Arabs only have the land by right of conquest. If we acknowledge their right of conquest, by what logic do we deny the Israelis'?

To akagi
"Good so if Mexicans come and buy land in California and then decide they want that land to be part of Mexico or a new state called say Nuevo Aztlan or Norte Aztlan or whatever, you are okay with that? Buying land doesn't give you the right to take that land and form a new state with it nor use terrorist tactics to accomplish that goal. Recall the Irgun?"

Yes, the situation would certainly be complex if someone purchased land in one sovereign nation and wanted to remove the land from that nation's jurisdiction.
Tell me, what sovereign nation had jurisdiction of Palestine from 1918 to 1947?

By the bye, just what happened to the Irgun? I seem to recall that the Israeli government suppressed it by provoking a lethal confrontation with some of its members, then dissolving it.
Let me know when the Palestinian Arabs suppress Hamas.


Also more for debishop
You have noticed that Bangladesh (last-i-checked, population is 89+% Muslim) has not exactly been in active (or even proxy) war with India anytime since 1971--despite of that country's government(s) and people NOT NECESSARILY having favourable opinions of India?

A LOT of purchased land!
By reliable estimate, the Palestinian Arabs in the early 20th C sold about 40% of the area now called Israel and Palestine to Jewish settlers. Most of it was in the West Bank, which is naturally a more fertile farming area. Hitler confiscated Jewish property and the Mufti of Jerusalem told the P Arabs that they could go back to the land they'd sold. After the war, Britain attempted to straighten out the legal deeds, but finally decided to just partition the area, thinking that would solve the problem. What they failed to understand was that it wasn't about who bought what and who had legal title to what. The Palestinian Arabs had gotten the idea that the land they had previously sold to Jews was theirs no matter if they had sold it and they were unwilling to compromise on that. They had the overwhelming support of other Arab nations and were convinced they could push the Jews into the sea. When they failed, they lost any right to the land Israel had taken in the war of Arab Aggression. So, that they have been given the land back -- they sold it once and lost it in war a second time -- they should be glad to still have it.

Hamas and all other Palestinians! Stop firing rockets into Israel and you might just find out they're not that bad to have as neighbors.

RW
The first choice was actually present day Uganda. Offered to the Zionists in 1903. It was rejected though for various reasons, but the local inhabitants didn't seem all that eager to have a bunch of Europeans show up on their doorstep. Who knows, if they had done this we might be talking about the MLO and the plight of the poor Maasai today instead of the Palestinians.

Akagi...
My concern isn’t whether both situations (Israel v. Pakistan) are comparable or equitable, but how Muslims view the two events. For Muslims, it was fine for a minority population to lay claim to territory for nation building, i.e., the creation of Pakistan, to the detriment of another nation, India, so long as the transaction benefited Muslims.

Yet, when the world, under the auspices of the UN, deemed it appropriate to create an independent state for a minority population, the Jews, the Muslims declared war on that nation—because that transaction came at the (territorial) detriment of Muslims.

Seems to be a double standard to me.

Regards freedom of religion in America, I’m quite happy living with anyone whose religion doesn’t call for the conquest and subjugation of the American people.


..............
Taft, after speaking to you last night it’s disappointing to see you reverting to leftist and arab agitprop.

-------Are you familiar with the terrorist situation that took place in Northern Ireland and why peace finally came after so many years of hate and bloodshed?--------

N. Ireland was never calling for the total extermination of the British people and nation.

The arab/muslim nations are a bastion of intolerance, violence, illiteracy and misguided hatred. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence is well aware of Islamic horrors committed worldwide for centuries. Homosexuals are publicly hanged, dissenters are imprisoned or killed, free speech is not permitted, females have barbaric genital mutilation committed against them, there’s the primitive practice of honor killings, on and on. Israel is a civilized nation that has contributed more to humanity [per capita] than any other nation in the history of mankind.

Yet leftist “intellectuals” blindly support the Islamic heathens, who hate America and the very leftists that support them, over Israel, an unabashedly pro-American state within a sea of Islamic hatred.

Taft, you need some introspection.

Great Column, Larry
And thank you. Well done.

The worst mistake Israel's enemies continue to make is forgetting that He Who keeps Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps. The only changes will come as God changes one heart at a time, and He is. This is happening. God is revealing Himself to Muslims around the world.

But there is no solution for the overall problem outside of the Lord. There will be a short-term, false "peace". It will fail. And the one who brings it about will be exposed as evil personified, as he tries to usurp God's place.

Gestell
You do realize you're suggesting that we're dealing with the Islamic idea of the Caliphate, right? Wherever Muslims live or have ever lived, it is their right to claim it, no matter who lives there now. Thus, all of Israel is Arab by right, as well all of Western Europe, parts of the United States, etc., etc.

I would think you'd normally reject such an idea as paranoid. I tend to think it's hyberbole, but I'm also aware that some Arabs do believe this should be reality.

Tallil2long
The British were as it was their Mandate given to them by the League of Nations. So would it have been proper to allow the Jews to go to Uganda instead which the British propsed in 1903? Even if the locals didn't much like the idea? How about if the US had allowed the same thing to happen in one of its trust territories, say Palau?

AW:

Yes, you told us what good neighbors the Israelis were yesterday. The building of settlements, checkpoints of "protect" the settlements, having de facto pass laws regarding movement, and a host of other neughborly things. If they were my neighbor, I'd think about moving--perhaps that is Israeli's plan.

AW
Care to tell us what part of the US was part of a Caliphate? I must have missed that in my US history classes.

No matter what speech Arafat
gave, he never recognized Israel's right to exist in ARABIC.

THE PLO FLAG IS ISRAEL.

And for those complaining about check points and barriers Israel imposes on Gaza, would you in the comfort of pecking away at your keyboard like to be wondering every minute *Has some suicide bomber just crossed the border five miles from me targeting my front yard?*

Since 2005, the Palestinians of Gaza have lobbed something like 10,000 missiles into Israel. Where is the UN who administers the refugee camps when the gadzillions poured into Gaza are used for armament and not the schools and hospitals we're always told the Palestinians lack so much.

When Arafat was in *office,* we used to send him $250,000 annually for Palestinian *cultural development.* Did that include AK47s? Arafat made off with $2 billion the PLO never even tried to retrieve when the great *liberator* died.

I'm sorry for the injuries and deaths in these conflcts, but the Palestinians teach hatred of the Jews in what schools they have (see last week's USNews& in its publisher's editorial) and preach martyrdom and suicide bombing as a life's goal. That came from Arafat, AFTER Clinton offered him the ranch for Clinton's own legacy. Arafat spat the whole deal back in Clinton's face. The Paliestinians do not want peace or co-existence. They want war and massacre.

And if you really want bloody history, you should read up on the Saracen Turk conquests of the Middle East.


Israel
Whether the State of Israel should have been created detracts from the fact that it exists and has functioned as a nation among other nations for sixty years. Because of its existence, Israel, as with any existing nation, has a right to defend its citizens from terror attacks. The nature of those attacks dictate the response. When the anti-Israeli terrorists and their supporters quit attacking Israel, peace will come to the region.

fc
you are absolutely correct. One can see from the way this conversation degenerated exactly how useless it is to argue over the History here.

People seem obsessed with determining who is hisotrically "right" and who is historically "wrong", as if that made a difference in this case. Such discussions merely reinforce each opposing camp in its own beliefs.


To Akagi
"The British were as it was their Mandate given to them by the League of Nations."

And they had seized it from the Ottoman Empire. There was not at that time, nor at any other time, a Palestinian Arab nation. So your objection was invalid. If the British had proper jurisdiction of Palestine, they had the right to relinquish part of it to form a Jewish Homeland. And their decision to do so was not unilateral, either.

"So would it have been proper to allow the Jews to go to Uganda instead which the British propsed in 1903? Even if the locals didn't much like the idea?"

Yes, as long as the locals were not displaced from their actual areas of settlement in the process.

"How about if the US had allowed the same thing to happen in one of its trust territories, say Palau?"

How about it?

svpallava
"..(Koran specifically urges hatred against Jews and Christians, as well as other non-Muslims) seems to have escaped you entirely."

I've looked into this myth and found it pretty flaky.

Several points.

However, events across the Muslim world tell us that the messages have yet to register where they matter. “Dialogues” addressing critical issues affecting Muslims continue to be conducted, as they have been for some years now, with bombs, AK-47s or knives. Reason, logic and argument have yet to make the scene. That is what we hear from Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Darfur, Pakistan and other theaters of Muslim “dialogue.” Sadly for Muslims, and more so for Islam, this butchery by Muslims — of Muslims and non-Muslims — goes accompanied by the claim that all this is done for Islam. That claim is blasphemy — an insult to a religion that holds human lives sacred.

http://arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=99756&d=13&m= 8&y=2007





svpallava
Mariane Pearl

Time Magazine July 2, 2007

Five years ago, extremists murdered her journalist husband Daniel in Pakistan. Mariane Pearl takes some questions.

Has your view of Islam changed?

No, it hasn't changed at all. I grew up with Muslim people, so I was very acquainted with Islam. So it is not like the people who killed Danny taught me what Islam was about. They are hijackers of their own faith.

--



To akagi
"The building of settlements, checkpoints of "protect" the settlements, having de facto pass laws regarding movement, and a host of other neughborly things."

Not as un-neighborly as firing thousands of explosive devices into your home, eh? Not as un-neighborly as coming into your yard with axes trying to kill you and your family, eh? (as the poor little Palestinian Arabs did in 1948)

Renny
The "ranch" would still have Israeli settlements, still the check points which basically had the occupied territories broken into fragments and still little better than a South African "homeland." Only people who saw that as a good deal are those in the Israeli camp. Yes, it was a good deal for them, but hardly a deal any Palestinian leader could accept.

The G.S.

My post on Ireland was asked as a question, an honest simple question. I read a blogger make a case for such, and , as readily can be seen, sv, is pretty knowledgeable, and I thought, open minded. I just wanted to know his opinion.

Also, I had hopped you and others could wee, I've been trying to be as fair and as understanding of Israeli side as I can. I suppose I may suffer prejudices not seen, save me from "introspection" though.

To Taft
"Five years ago, extremists murdered her journalist husband Daniel in Pakistan. Mariane Pearl takes some questions.
Has your view of Islam changed?
No, it hasn't changed at all. I grew up with Muslim people, so I was very acquainted with Islam. So it is not like the people who killed Danny taught me what Islam was about. They are hijackers of their own faith."

Let's just let Mohammed teach us what Islam is about:

"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His apostle have forbidden and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued."
- Sura 9:29

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."
Sura 9:123

(Note that this last is definitely NOT related to defensive wars)

..............
Akagi, if life is so terrible for the palestinians within Israel why haven't they left for one of the 22 arab/muslim nations surrounding Israel?

You know the answer. The average arab has a far better life under Israeli rule than they do under arab rule.

Caliphate - can't wait...
Historically speaking, the caliphate is the political leadership of the Muslim ummah; which means the Community or Nation, or the collective nations of Islam, or the diaspora (Community of Believers), or the whole Muslim world.

“Islam, in the tenth century, was the main religion, or at least, the religion of the majority of peoples in an area covering more than half of the civilized world stretching over three continents from the Pyrenees and Siberia in West and North Europe to the farthest end of Asia, up to China and New Guinea in the East; from Morocco in North Africa to the southern tip of Africa, covering two-thirds of the African continent.”
http://www.thewaytotruth.org/islamandhumanity/spreadofisla m.html

I’m sure this isn’t taught in American History classes, but it is surely taught in Mosques and Islamic schools around the world. The Islamic Caliphate will expand to cover whatever area Islam can conquer or subjugate. I’m guessing the British and the French didn’t think they were part of the Caliphate either. Just because you weren't on the original 10th Century hit list, doesn't mean you're exempt.


It's a Supernatural Hatred
this total.. all consumming hatred that spews forth toward Israel from all these Muslim/Leftist/U.N./Palestinian/Hamas sympathizers etc. To believe that there is anything to support in regards to Hamas and their terror regime, is mind boggling, only a Supernatural explanation fits.

The picture of that protester screaming "back to the ovens" was so disgusting and right here in America, I could only weep for Israel and the Jewish people that heard that vile nauseating woman. And nothing could be done to stop her...shocking!!! They don't have the right to come to this country and bring our nation down to their level of HATRED and vileness and for that I protest!!!.

This battle between the "Apple of Gods' eye" and their committed
enemy will be won Supernaturally and believe me I'm on the winning side and that VICIOUS woman and all those sympathizing Hamas lovers are not!!!


Talli
I don't know a word of Arabic but I agree, there are dark passages, I'm sure in the Koran, but one can still weigh that evidence against other, maybe more compelling facts. One could, find passages in the Old Testament, as bellicose and intolerant. There, are there not, Christians and Muslims living side by side in places like Turkey?

FC
"When the anti-Israeli terrorists and their supporters quit attacking Israel, peace will come to the region."

Nope. Two-sides. Yes, as long as Hamas and others attack Israel there won't be peace, but as long as Israel maintians a South African.

And Tallil2long:

They did displace the population there already. Not unlike what happened on Guadalcanal between the Malaita and the original inhabitants the Gwale.

"There was not at that time, nor at any other time, a Palestinian Arab nation."

And in 1895, Taiwan wasn't a Taiwanese one. Should Japan have been allowed to resettle the Ainu there?

Palestine
The Palestinian Arabs never, ever, had control of that land. Jordan had the West Bank, Egypt had the Gaza and Syria had the Heights. Before that the British had Mandate after the Ottoman Turks lost it during World War I. Before that it was under a good many different empires.
If the account in the Bible is historically accurate, the Jews had it during the time of David and Solomon.
Individual Arabs may have owned parcels. Many Arabs left Israel on the advice of the surrounding Arab countries with the idea that the Jews would be expelled. Only in one city were the Arabs asked to leave by the Isrealis. By brute memory it was Jenin. But the Arab countries (Syria, Jordan and Egypt lost in 1948. Amazing that so few Jews could defeat so many Arabs. Weren't there about 120 million Arabs against those few Jews?
Donald W. Bales

Taft
Singapore and Malaysia too. As far as that goes Lebanon and the West Bank.

Akagi


I appreciate that and your posts! Keep it up.

Palestine Mandate
The present-day Jewish claim to Israel does not originate from ancient history, but from the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI. The territory of the defeated enemy was subject to division by the victors, who chose to designate a portion of it as the Jewish homeland.

There is a lot of vagueness, confusion and conflict in the historical record, regarding Britain's quite arbitrary parcelling of the Palestine Mandate. The region of Palestine did not have geographic boundaries until the establishment of the Palestine Mandate, which included all of what is now Jordan ("transjordan") There was a vague bureaucratic intention by the League of Nations and Britain, to designate a Jewish homeland, and to segregate most of the "Palestinians" east of the Jordan river. The West Bank and Gaza should have been part of Israel, and most of the Palestinians should be living in Jordan and be citizens there, today.
However, today we see the operation of The Law of Unintended Consequences, when a simple(minded) entity attempts to regulate a complex process, and when liberals attempt to impose their "reasonable"ness on tribal fanatics who choose not to reason, but who believe that the solution to reasonable disagreement is homicide.

Informative--
This article is an excellent but brief history lesson on the region and its occupiers over the past milliniums. Will the wars never end????

Had the *Palestinians^ remaind in Israel
and not started a war they have never given up in 60 years, there would never have been a conflict to start.

The Jews did not of their own land at Jaifa and start an invasion of peaceful Palestine in 1948.

The world community as represented by the UN in 1948 consectated the new states of Jordan and Israel. Millions of Arabs did not leave Israel in 48 and they and their descendants still live on Israeli soil, work, and vote.

If the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are treated like blacks in the former South Africa, it is because the UN, other Arabs and their national policies, and the refugee community itself has perpetuated isolation and second-class status on the peoples condemned to camps and handouts for 60 years.

I've been to Israel (3 times), Egypt (2), Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey, and it is the Arab countries that will not let you use a passport with an Israeli stamp and not the other way around. The haters of Israel think if they just keep agitating they will drive off the Jews as they did the Christian kingdoms of the Middle Ages. That process was 200 years.

They have a long way to go.

The US offers the only solution
I have friends on both sides of the Israeli/Palestian divide who absolutely refuse to consider the fact that the governments they support contribute to the hostilities, and nothing you can say to them will alter their internal dialog.

They are emblematic of the larger problem, namely, that the two sides will never come to an accomodation due to the extremists elements on both sides who end up determing the action on the ground.

The only way some measure of peace and stability will gained is if an American administration dedicates itself to bringing both sides to the table and forging a peace acceptable to all involved.

We have seen the last ditch efforts of both the Clinton and Bush administrations go up in flames. However, the active, and consistent approach of the Carter administration produced a warming of relations between the Israelis and Egyptians that holds to this day...much to the consternation of Arabs who call for the destruction of Israel.


A Case For Industry and Integrity
Know this, that we are not free if we claim entitlement to others sacrifice to obtain prosperity.

Ignorance leaves us with no excuse. A thief is still a thief, whether he robs the poor or the rich. Entitlement is a from of theft.

“Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”

Israel created their opportunity out of personal sacrifice and honest hard work or what we call industry. Others come alone and say don’t be selfish, give us a piece of the pie or cake. They refuse to learn how to work together and learn how to create their very own prosperity out of the same desert. They fail to create their own opportunity, their very won pie. The temptation to steal another’s good fortune blinds them to their evil intent.

“Pride goeth before the fall and an haughty spirit before destruction.” Proverbs

fc
Ever heard about the "first rule of holes?"

Bryce
But the problem is 1) the Palestinians don't see the US as an honest partner but as a lackey for Israel and rightfully so and 2) Due to nuts on both sides no one is willing to compromise. The Palestinians will never accept a deal that doesn't include Jerusalem (at least the Arab section) and the Israelis will never compromise to "divide" "their" capital. And then there are the settlements all over, check points and the like.

It would be good if a country that could be seen as an honest broker and the clout could come forward but none exists--either they don't care about the issue (say a country like Japan or China) or just no weight behind them (like the Swiss).

Look plenty of people smarter than anyone on here on this subject and if this issue was able to be solved it would have been by now. At this point I am afraid it is not solvable, only able to be mitigated to do less harm as possible.


To akagi
"They did displace the population there already. Not unlike what happened on Guadalcanal between the Malaita and the original inhabitants the Gwale."

Some 20% of Israel's population consists of Palestinian Arabs. Why did they get to stay? Perhaps because they didn't try to murder Jews in 1948, and felt the need to flee the consequences of their actions? Contrast this situation with that of the Jewish population of Arab nations?

Iraq's 150,000 Jews were deprived of citizenship and property by legal action in 1950 and 1951. How many Jews now reside in Iraq? In Egypt, on November 23 1956 a proclamation stated that 'all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state', and promised that they would be expelled. Within the decade virtually all of Egypt's 100,000 Jews fled. How many are there today? Libya's 38,000 Jews were expelled, allowed to take one suitcase and the equivalent of $50; their property was seized. How many Jews in Libya now? In Syria, rioters attacked the Jewish Quarter in Aleppo and burned it; massive legal restrictions were placed on Jews. There were 30,000 Jews there in 1948; how many Jews are there in Syria now? Do you want to hear about Morocco, Tunisia, Yemen, and Lebanon?
If Israel 'displaced' it's Arabs (somehow overlooking a million or so), then the Arabs were FAR more effective in forcing out their Jews.

Wonder why folks like you, with your high principles, can't be bothered to carp about ethnic cleansing against the Jews?

"There was not at that time, nor at any other time, a Palestinian Arab nation."

Quibble all you want, but that fact destroys your objection of Message #48!

Second to akagi
"But the problem is 1) the Palestinians don't see the US as an honest partner but as a lackey for Israel and rightfully so"

Yep. So much 'lackeys' of Israel that the U.S. applied so much pressure to Israel that it felt compelled to abandon the Sinai...
The U.S. pressured Israel to withdraw from Gaza, even though many Israeli's (rightly) claimed that such a withdrawal would only bring even more attacks against their noncombatant population...

Better start reading history, neighbor. You demonstrably know nothing of the complexities of the ACTUAL situation; you are far more comfortable with a simple-minded black and white stereotype.

Poor amonk7, et alia
You fall into the category best described by Shakespeare in this line from Hamlet: "The lady (read, amonk7) doth protest too much, methinks." You accuse others of not knowing history, and clearly you are of their number. Before you castigate others, and make wildly erroneous claims, you should in fact do some serious research yourself. That does not mean reading standard history texts, but delving into government archives, and other sources from the era involved.

My father's side of the family lived in Palestine, from the last third of the 19th century until the late 1930s, and has first-hand knowledge of the area. In addition I have studied the kinds of documents I recommend to you. Your claims of Israel "stealing" land and resources from "Palestinians" are baseless, ignorant, naive caterwauling. Either take the time to truly learn the history of that region, or cease attempting to hold forth on it.

For now, your rantings only serve to deepen the misunderstanding of others--and yourself.

happy new year
Folks, this will never end until one is totally destroyed. Sad,sad,sad.

Excellent Sage, Of Course!
When bombs fly, Israel sounds alarms to protect its citizens of the incoming dangers. Israel isolates military compounds to protect its citizens. Who wouldn't do such things for their loved ones? .... oh, yeah, Hamas / Hezbolla.

Good history summary
Somehow Hamas does not accept the reality of Israel. They probably disregard the history but will have to accept the strength and power of arms.

Fabricated History gets cheaper everyday
Mr Larry Elder,
what is your rate for writing a new history for Palestine? I'd like to claim it and I have money to prove it was empty before.

....................
-----Mr Larry Elder, what is your rate for writing a new history for Palestine?.......John------

To paraphrase Frank Zappa, you wouldn't know history if it bit you on the dick.

Taft
How many children were incinerated in WWII?

If I were an Israeli who read an understood the "agreement" between Palestine and Israel over the Gaza strip being returned, and then saw the rockets landing in Israel, I would say that this was a neutralization of that agreement.

How come, with you libs, it is always the children of Muslim that are counted? Does being Hebrew make their children less valuable or are you comfortable with watching them annihilated as in the second world war.

You'd make a great "neutral" head counter in this situation except to scream...another Muslim child has been killed whether or not 10 Israeli children had been taken down.

You want those of us who feel that Israel has taken enough for those of us here to rain tears over their progeny. It has gotten to the point with me that because of people like you, I have to weigh the honesty of the clan that is screaming as to their intent to live in peace. Sorry but the winner is Israel. They tried and Palestine failed.

....................
------you could a stand up comic too. the part about Jews offering jobs to Arabs and inviting them was damn funny......John-----

Hey dipshyt, what do you think the arab-Israelis do all day, sit around doing drugs and watching Jerry Springer like you liberals? Tell me moron, do you realize there are arabs in the Knesset? Israeli arabs can vote, tell me what other arab nations allow their citizens to vote.

It's a shame you're so stupid that you can't see just how stupid you are.

Satin Sheets !

Zappa: "I never set out to be weird. It was always other people who called me weird."


WHO is DAVID and WHO is GOLIATH?
SAM BRADFORD, OKLAHOMA QUARTERBACK is DAVID! TIM TEBOW, FLORIDA QUARTERBACK is GOLIATH!

I believe history will repeat. DAVID (Sam) will have 30 or more running attempts and 30 or more sling shots at GOLIATH (Tim).

The end result will be a triumph for David (Sam)and his warriors over Goliath (Tim).

DAVID v GOLAITH
Since 1948 the UN and the rest of the 'stuck on stupid' round the world have called the Palestinians, refugees. What a hoot! I have seen refugee camps in Rawanda, Sudan, Darfur, Somalia, et cetera.

These refugee camps consists of tents, mud huts, tin and straw huts with little more than water and powdered milk for subsistance, et cetara.

Palestine (GAZA) has, food, water, medicine, doctors, beaches, electricity, schools, recreation areas, high rise buildings, metal factories, automobiles, streets, modern homes, cafes, theatres et cetara.

Palestinians would not be forced from there homes or in danger of bombs if their Hamas leaders would stop using them as shields, using their mosques, using their schools and using their hospitals as platforms from which to fire their rockets into Israel.

Hamas believes women and children of Palestine who are killed by Israel is better than Palestinians killing Jews. This propaganda ploy always brings the 'stuck on stupid' out to burn American and Israel flags, screaming "death to America" and "death to Israel" and the 'stuck on stupid', biased media to slant the reporting to promote Israel as aggressors.

If the Israelis do not get it right this time they deserve whatever hand fate deals Israel.

If they do not I can understand why they wandered in the desert for generations if they allow this insanity to happen once more.

DAVID v GOLAITH
Hamas, the PA and the PLO have been mooching from Iran, Syria, the UN, the EU and Arabs round the world for their existance since 1948.

HAMAS imports weapons and material and supplies to manufacture weapons that kill Israelis. They export terror.

They teach their children to hate and kill all infidels, Jews, Americans and anyone else who is not a Muslim.

Who does the 'stuck on stupid' blame for the Palestinians situation? The Israelis, of course.

Israel should continue with their mission until Hamas is completely obliterated and GAZA is under the control of Mamoud Abbas.

Hamas will not have a seat at any future negotiations with the Palestinian Authority. Hamas is obliterated and Fatah will enforce the laws set forth by the Palestinian Authority in Palestine.

When and if the peace negotiations take place Israel should make it very clear to the Palestinians and the rest of the 'stuck on stupid' world that this will be the final attempt at peace.

Israel will not surrender any land for peace to anyone.

Israel will announce to the 'stuck on stupid' UN, EU and the rest of the world if any sucicide bomber kills innocent Israelis or any rockets land on Israel soil, fired from Lebanon by Hezbollah the Israelis will obliterate Hezbollah as they obliterated Hamas in GAZA.
Semper Fi,
LEVI

Judith

Its because of the children in the holocaust, that i take such time to repudiate behavior that would kill children, just because of their race. My social studies teacher, in rural Nebraska, would never let the holocaust be forgotten and placed large photographs of the deeds around his room, something I wish I still saw around today. Since then, I've read dozens of books on the subject, and, really, it disturbs me to read people talk about the Palestinians as vermin and animals and that they don't deserve a homeland, ect... Even more disturbing is the mentality, ..."don't f** with the jews" we don't care about proportions. (Marty Peretz and Micheal Goldfarb)

Taft
We will not see things eye to eye.

If it were America that was shelled by the Palestinians I would take the "Don't fu*k with America line just as I take the "Don't fu*ck with Israel side". The Palestinians started this mess by shelling Israel after an agreement had been made where the Gaza strip was returned to them with an agreement to have peace. What part of that don't they understand? What part of that don't you understand?

When agreements are made by intelligent people they usually try to keep their word. While I don't call anyone "vermin" I do call the Palestinians dishonest. They are so overwhelmed by the tenants of their faith to hate Jews, that they cannot see beyond what is good for their own families and, in that sense, they sacrifice them to quell their hatred.

I could call adults that make martyrs of their children a lot of things. The words that comes to mind are mindless adherence to the most evil, despicable,irrational and hateful aspect of their religion. And that is to rid their world of another race of human beings. Their souls will have no peace in heaven much less the 72 virgins they hold so dear. What muck!

Where is the definitive opinion

of Mule Cooze on this subject?

Judith

Thanks for your reply. I think this topic has exhausted me. Have a good evening.

Judith
The only way you're going to be able to ever "see eye to eye" with Taft is to become as blind as he is!

FromTheTop1

FromTheTop1 says,"Hamas, the PA and the PLO have been mooching from Iran, Syria, the UN, the EU and Arabs round the world for their existance since 1948."

Then there's American Taxpayers Money used for United States Foreign Aid To Israel:

2001: $2.813 Billion
2002: $3.120 Billion
2003: $2.700 Billion
2004: $2.624 Billion
2005: $2.985 Billion
2006: $2.520 Billion
2007: $2.500 Billion
2008: $2,423 Billion

That must have slipped your mind.

Upsy Daisy FwonTheTip 0 !

(Tebow) Golaith just ate Lil' Davey (Bradford) for Lunch !

A Tasty Morsel,Hmmmmm,Hmmmmm !

(Just Havin' Some Fun Wit Ya)

Complex problem
I read an article today in the new york times that aptly expains why there is no clear path that Israel can take to peace. It begins by telling a story about a Doctor who just lost his wife and 1 year old son to bombs in Gaza. BUt the article also points out that the bombs were dropped in response to rockets that Hamas fired from right next to his apartment building. When Israel responded his family suffered. Then it talks about a 21 year old jihadist who was insisting that he be treated first before people who were clearly more injured so he could immediately return to the fight. He asked with some confusion why the families of those civilians seem so upset. He said they should be happy their family members will be martyrs I hope to be one too.

This is who the people of Gaza elected to be their representatives. Do you really think that Israel can ever trust any truce with people who these views.

No the people of Palistine are not vermin, but they are also not ready for peace. So they will continue to suffer when they could have peace.

Irrational Fanatics Can't Accept Truth
It is about time that the American people stand up and let foreign immigrants who come here and live on our soil and take our jobs and go to our schools all at our expense, we the U.S. natural born and long time legal taxpaying citizens who made this country what is - free - safe - sovereign - so even immigrants an live in a free country by assimilating, not attack our American citizens and espouse hate and violence on our public streets or hold their prayer meetings while Christians are arrested.
Why do they think they can scream obscenities on our public streets at American citizens and target the American Jews? Why should they be allowed to shout that they're here to dominate America and force Americans to accept their religion aka political agenda or else which is treason in my opinion and a hate crime. Today, they've exposed their hate at American Jews, but will tomorrow be the Christians and then the Mormons and Catholics? How dare them threaten Jewish Americans and call for their extermination in "bigger ovens." Where's law enforcement and why has obama remained silent on these threats against American citizens and why is he wanting to keep the borders open when Americans are losing their jobs knowing that it places a huge economic burden on our U.S. citizens? We must defend our American citizens from hate crimes and fight back for our U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights and sovereignty and not allow foreigners to do to us what they've done to the UK and Netherlands.

Interesting article
The land was Arab land, search and read about the Balfour Agreement. Search and read about the Rothchild's.
The "Jews" of the Bible do not exist today in Israel, DNA experts have concluded their DNA has no connection to the "Jews" of Abraham, et al, but may be close to the Kharizi(sp-?)who enhabit or did inhabid the area northerly of Turkey. The only people who even come close to being a "Jew" live in Etheopia, yes folks, the "Jews" are of the Negro race. No I am not a Black person, I be white.....but I read, try it sometime and just maybe some of the posts on sites like this will have some substance of iintellagence.

AND
There is a differance between Jews and Zionists, perhaps that is what this is all about!

To Taft
"Its because of the children in the holocaust, that i take such time to repudiate behavior that would kill children, just because of their race"

Strangely, although over 1 million Arabs live INSIDE Israel, the Israelis aren't killing their children. Although there are Arabs in every region surrounding Israel, the Israeli's aren't killing their kids either. So perhaps, just maybe, it isn't about race. Perhaps it's about the Palestinian Arab militants operating in close proximity to Arab settlements, in which those children live. Israel has a right to respond militarily every time it is attacked. I bet there's a REASON that the only Arab kids getting killed by Israelis live within Gaza, whose population has launched several thousand attacks on Israel in the last four or five years. If the childrens' parents would stop launching rockets, or stop supporting (and yes, ELECTING) the people who do, that would be an end of the matter. But since so many Palestinian Arabs care more about trying to kill Jews than about the safety of their own children, that hasn't happened.

It is rather ironic that Americans care more about the lives of Palestinian Arab children than many Palestinian Arabs do.

Tangentially, for Talil2long
Also see Sura 9:30 "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!" (Pickthall translation).

Note that nowhere in OT (or any Jewish tradition) do Jews claim Ezra to be the Son Of God; infact, 1st century Jews considered--and post-1st-century Jews have not altered the perception--anyone claiming to be Son Of God to be guilty of blasphemy.

The above verse does show why Muslims have been so readily accepting of the Cheka-fabricated "Protocols of Elders of Zion" to the extent that the majority of copies are printed in Multan. (Cheka: pre-1917 precursor of NKVD/KGB/FSB)

To svpallava
True. It is also interesting that there is no *standing* directive in the Bible for believers (or Jews) to make war on others, whether for conversion or any other purpose. God DID tell the Jews to make war on some occasions -- but those were *specific* campaigns. Some folks might wish that God had not done this at all, and might judge Him for it, but it is NOT in any way comparable to the standing directive by Mohammed for the Muslims to wage continuous agressive war.

Response to Talil2long
Also, the Israelites were actually commanded NOT to attack territories of certain groups, even those who were hostile--Edomites (with exception of one offshoot, Amalekites), Moabites, Ammonites, Egyptians--and especially not to annihilate these groups, in contrast to the absolute lack of comparable prohibitions in Koran.

More tangentially (responding to your 11:05 post), I have more than once noted the (valid) comparison of Israel Arabs with Indian Muslims: both groups have actually benefitted from being part of these non-Muslim nations, enjoying the relative freedom from oppression of a democracy, including possibility of aspiration to be the country's leader--in contrast to most Muslim or Arab nations, where none outside of a defined elite can so aspire.

David or Goliah - Who is good? Who is B
God promised the Jews all of Israel-Judah. Most
of the property the Muslims (Palestineans) have
actually belong to the Jewish nation. The
Muslims need to find other territories outside
of Palestine-Gaza-Jerusalem and let the Jews
have the region that is rightfully theirs!
FGL - Gallipolis, OH

Great going TH
Your world class servers wiped a whole day worth of messages.

MF
"God promised the Jews all of Israel-Judah. Most
of the property the Muslims (Palestineans) have
actually belong to the Jewish nation."

As I said in a number of posts before TH (maybe it was God, you think?) wiped a whole day of messages, says you! I am sure the Palestinians will say Allah says something different. Pretty flaky to based decisions in 2009 on something written 4000 years ago. First we don't know who you claim as God is God. Second, since the Old Testament has gone through centuries of oral tradition, translations into various languages the accuracy is highly suspect (remember the Quran problem where the 72 virgins may really mean 72 white grapes). It is just as likely that mere mortals are putting words in God's mouth. It goes something like this.

"God promised the Jews all of Israel-Judah." "Who said?" "God did" "How do you know this?" "It was written in the Holy Book" "And who wrote that?" "Men inspired by God." "Who says they were inspired by God?" "They did." "Oh..I guess that works."

Note that the land of Israel in the Bible also includes land several in several independent nations--Lebanon, Syria, Jordon, Iraq aming others--should it be US policy to annex these lands for Israel too?




To Akagi
The Palestinian Arabs can say what they want. The Arabs came there as conquerors, who, with no provocation, attacked the predominently-Christian society that existed in Palestine in late Roman times. They killed thousands, enslaved and raped tens of thousands (see the Koran on how Mohammed allowed his followers to treat the spoils - expecially the females), then settled down to oppress those who remained.

Successful conquest is the ONLY Arab claim to Palestine. If you accept a claim based on conquest as valid, then why do you not stick by your principles when it comes to the Jews?

The Real Problem:
Islamist Groups are Responsible for
worldwide terror. There are numerous radical islamist groups, all with the same agenda: bringing down Israel and the West, thereby eliminating any barrier to their ultimate goal of bringing the world under Islam's yoke.

Radical Immams make no secret of this. Any youtube search will make that clear.
Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hamas, are groups that we are familiar with, however there are many in the shadows, such as those who committed the atrocities in Mumbai.

Al-Shabaah(the youth)is a Somoli based group(the pirates of the gulf of Aiden). This group has attacked and kidnapped westerners and threatened international peace keepers.

Jaish-e-Mohammad and Hizbul Mujahideen of Pakistan/Kashmir: responsible for beheading Daniel pearl and attacks against India's civilians and members of parliment.

Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islam: of Bagladesh, responsible for many bombings in that area and attempts to assassinate the country's Prime Minister.

There are Hamas and Al-Qaeda cells within every major city of the U.S.(Homeland security study)waiting for their orders.
Those who blame actions of the U.S or Israel on this resurrgence of Radical Islamists fail to see the big picture evidenced by their actions in many nation/states having no relation or ties to the U.S or Israel.

There are an estimated 110 million Radical Islamists worldwide. They hold the common belief that killing infidels(any non Muslim)will ingratiate them to Allah. They riot and murder over cartoons, a speach given by the Pope quoting a medieval scholar whom even then questoned Islam's violent nature, A movie depicting the plight of women of Islam(Van Gogh)... should we not be concerned?

Jew’s are David = Arab’s are Goliaths
Larry, love your articles this one is intriguing, you have to understand how all of this started. Hagar, the dark-skinned Egyptian handmaid to Sarah, bore Ishmael, Abraham’s son (Gen.16: 1-16.) The Promise was your decedents will be called and counted through the line of Isaac (Gal 4: - 28, Rom.: 9:7) So their will never be any peace there, Arabs and Jews have nothing in common not even their God. The terrorist group Hamas only lives to kill Jews, and they live in Gaza using the citizens as human shields, instead of fighting as men they hide like moles underground, and run out and shoot off rockets to kill the Jewish people.


Thanks

Israel's God has proven countless times that no one can stand up to Him. This war will culminate into a bigger war, not Armageddon which comes after Christ's coming, but between many nations surrounding Israel, including Iran. God will not allow Israel assistance from other countries, including the United States, because He wants all nations to know his power and absolute authority. Israel will win this war. Read Ezekiel 37,38,39. This is where we are located on the prophetic timeline according to many historians.
Remember, lots of things have to happen before the end of time. First, we have to go through seven years of tribulation which hasn't happened yet. Also, the temple in Jerusalem has to be rebuilt where the "abomination" tries to sit down on Christ's throne.


Larry!!!
Great article Larry...but I had to write to say....WE MISSSSS YOU IN LA!!!! PLEASE COME BACK TO THE RADIO SOON. It's just not the same without you!!!!! Keep us updated!

Larry!!!
Great article Larry...but I had to write to say....WE MISSSSS YOU IN LA!!!! PLEASE COME BACK TO THE RADIO SOON. It's just not the same without you!!!!! Keep us updated!

best pr line ever
fascinating......

though I believe in God, I disbelieve in the religions that man created to suit his version of this god...

and I do not believe that God chose only one people...

this automatically makes all others wrong...and therefore gives the "right" believer to entitlements, possessions...land...

BS


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