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Tuesday, April 14, 2009
Kathryn Lopez :: Townhall.com Columnist
Singing Sanger's Praises, Whistling Past the Graveyard
by Kathryn Lopez
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"We want fewer and better children ... and we cannot make the social life and the world-peace we are determined to make, with the ill-bred, ill-trained swarms of inferior citizens that you inflict on us."

That ghastly pro-eugenics message appeared in the introduction to Margaret Sanger's 1922 book, "The Pivot of Civilization."

In a little-noticed incident, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton recently announced that she is "really in awe" of Sanger. "The 20th century reproductive rights movement, really embodied in the life and leadership of Margaret Sanger, was one of the most transformational in the entire history of the human race," Clinton declaimed, upon receiving an award from the organization that Sanger founded, Planned Parenthood.

Clinton's speech punctured the fiction that she's a moderate -- the radical organization Planned Parenthood certainly has confidence in her. Her words didn't set off shockwaves among the public because Planned Parenthood is about as American as apple pie at this benighted point in history.

Pop culture, mass media, most Democrats and even some Republicans bow at its altar -- the religious metaphor is intentional: Sanger referred to a "religion of birth control," that sought to "ease the financial load of caring for with public funds ... children destined to become a burden to themselves, to their family and ultimately to the nation."

According to its just-released annual report for 2007-2008, the Planned Parenthood Federation of America was responsible for conducting 305,310 abortions in the United States in 2007, an increase from 289,750 the previous year. Consider that the next time a pro-choice advocate tells you that women are being kept from abortions in America. That increase in abortions provided by PPFA coincided with an increase in government funding, from $337 million to $350 million.

Does any of this sound unacceptable to you? We certainly don't have to subsidize the largest abortion provider in the United States, one with a dark history, (which Jonah Goldberg chronicles well in his book "Liberal Fascism,") and a disturbing present.

But attempts by pro-life politicians to cut off funding to Planned Parenthood are always averted. Defenders of the organization argue that the government money goes toward family-planning outreach, not just abortions. But why does Planned Parenthood even need the U.S. Treasury, considering it makes a healthy profit year after year? Shouldn't we at least be arguing over this?

Right now, Washington is more comfortable with abortion than it has been in a long time. As Hillary Clinton praises the Obama administration's commitment to "reproductive rights," it's an important time for some reflection on what, exactly, that euphemism means.

Does, for instance, the Roe v. Wade co-counsel, Ron Weddington, reflect the reproductive rights movement? In the early 90s, just as the first Clinton administration was getting ready to take office, he urged it to rush an abortion pill into the hands of American women. He argued that doing so would help "start immediately to eliminate the barely educated, unhealthy and poor segment of our country."

He wrote: "(G)overnment is also going to have to provide vasectomies, tubal ligations and abortions. ... There have been about 30 million abortions in this country since Roe v. Wade. Think of all the poverty, crime and misery ... and then add 30 million unwanted babies to the scenario. We lost a lot of ground during the Reagan-Bush religious orgy. We don't have a lot of time left."

Sounds a lot like the population-culling paranoia of Sanger, doesn't it?

Pro-lifers are frequently portrayed by the Planned Parenthood crowd as heartless zealots unconcerned with the realities of women's lives. Not only does the work of many crisis-pregnancy centers and like-minded groups suggest otherwise, but if you pay attention to the words of Sanger and her followers, you'll find a much more chilling disdain for the realities of lower-class life.

There are folks with good intentions on all sides of the abortion debate. But if you doubt that a little scrutiny is well overdue, consider this: we have not yet hit the 100-day mark in the Obama administration, and the United Nations Population Fund has already been given a $50-million check from the United States. Sure, the UNFPA has been criticized for its collaboration with coerced abortion in China, but that's just fine with us. And that's exactly what can be expected from a State Department run by a woman "really in awe" of Margaret Sanger.

PPFA's annual report is titled "Planned Parenthood Matters." It sure does. It's about time we take notice.

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About The Author
Kathryn Jean Lopez, editor of National Review Online, writes a weekly column of conservative political and social commentary for Newspaper Enterprise Association.
 
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Aniko 2

Aniko: I am not angry, hurting or arrogant. If I were to accept "guilt" for what I have done, you might be happy that you "made me see the light". Do I owe you that?

Jen: You owe me nothing and I never indicated such. You owe it to yourself. It would not make me happy were you to feel guilty. There is no need to feel guilty. You could be completely rid of any guilt were you simply to admit your wrong doing. You need only to understand what you did, receive God’s forgiveness and move on.


Aniko: If I were to accept that "I murdered my babies", perhaps I could not live with myself. I WOULD feel compelled to end my life if I were to accept that I am a "murderer".

Jen: Then I must say you still do not understand the power of God’s love and forgiveness. You consider such an act unforgivable? You underestimate God’s ability then to forgive anything.

I once attended a pro life dinner where a woman got up and confessed she had had 8 abortions. It ruined her life until she was able to admit she had killed her own children. She could then grieve their loss and receive forgiveness. Only then could she honestly know she was forgiven. She was finally at peace and has helped many other women considering abortion. She realizes now that abortion was not the answer. How could the creator of life ever be in favor of the destruction of life?


Aniko: See how lightly you use the term?

Jen: I do not take the term murder lightly. I just call it what it is.

I wish you peace Aniko.

Aniko 1

Aniko: Where does it say in the Bible that Christians have to accept the “Word” from the preacher without challenging their interpretation?

Jen: In the Bible Jesus tells us to listen to His church.

After His Resurrection, Jesus confers authority upon the Apostles and tells them: “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I send you. . . Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whose sins you do not forgive, they are not forgiven.” (Jn 20:22-23)






Aniko: Abortion, naturally was not even brought up. So, the Bible does not clarify it.

Jen: Jesus gave us His Church, precisely b/c he knew that things would come up that weren’t specifically addressed in the Bible. He also knew how two people could read the exact same scripture passage and come to two completely different interpretations. This is why He set up One Church, that He promised would be guided by the Holy Spirit and therefore able to properly impart His truths.

It’s interesting how you claim you would never have a 2nd trimester abortion. You obviously do not realize how illogical this is. If you weren’t sure there was actually a baby growing inside of you, why didn’t you wait 9 months to be sure?



Aniko: . Why would some Christians want to define a human life worthy to bestow citizenship rights from the moment of conception, it baffles my mind?

Jen: Because it is typically our most defenseless members of society who need the most protection. They are unable to speak for themselves, so people like you want to write them off. They are no less human then you and me. They are as deserving of respect. You believe they are of no value? Why? B/c they don’t serve the purpose you want them too? Aren’t you glad someone doesn’t think the same thing about you? Life is of value not simply when it is full grown and mature as you put it. Or not just when it can actually “do” something. Life is of value for the simple fact it’s LIFE.

Jen
I am not angry, hurting or arrogant. If I were to accept "guilt" for what I have done, you might be happy that you "made me see the light". Do I owe you that? Jen dear, perhaps it is not up to you to convince me to be regretful of my decisions. And I am not regretful! If I were to accept that "I murdered my babies", perhaps I could not live with myself. We Hungarians are of Eastern descent (or so they suspect) and are big on suicide (actually Japan and Hungary are mostly 1st and 2nd place, alternately on the world suicide list), and I WOULD feel compelled to end my life if I were to accept that I am a "murderer". See how lightly you use the term? I couldn't do that to you or anyone else. I adore babies and the thought (according to your definition of "babies") that I "murdered" my own "babies" would not allow me to live my life at peace with myself. Even if you think I am a murderer, I know that God and Jesus, "knows our hearts" more than we do. They know the purity of my heart and love, and They are pleased with me, even if the "church" and you aren't.
I am sure we shall meet, where we both will know and understand it all, and yes, I might be able to tell you a lot of interesting stories that shaped me during my sojourn on Earth. Until then, I do believe that God does not look kindly upon you calling me a “murderer of babies”.

Abortion, freedom and sin...
Reverence for reverends? Ring kissing for the Pope?
Where does it say in the Bible that Christians have to accept the “Word” from the preacher without challenging their interpretation? The Romans, Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians all challenged the apostles for clarifications. The apostles answers became books in the New Testament. There were issues, that we are debating today, that were not questionable in those times. Human life was not entirely understood, and the more babies one had, the more chance that some of them stayed alive. Abortion, naturally was not even brought up. So, the Bible does not clarify it. Catholics, up until before the modern era, considered that the “soul enters the body” of a baby with its first breath. For centuries, that was the acceptable dogma. I, personally consider that the soul enters the body of a fetus, at about the time the central nervous system starts to form the first creases, that appears in the second trimester of gestation. I would never, ever have considered to abort a fetus in the second trimester. That is when through the induced labor some fetuses may be born, not necessarily viable, but alive. I am 100% against abortion through induced labor. There is a window of opportunity to exercise your “best judgment”, and if you are not resolved by then, accept your fate of bringing a child forth. Unless the Holy Spirit will inspire me otherwise, I will hold my belief as it is. If one is not conscious of an “evil” one does, neither God, nor Jesus will hold that against one! I may be in that position. May the Lord hear my prayer to enlighten me about my wrong in His time, and His way.
At this point in time, with all the scientific knowledge we have, we cannot really define what “death “is, brain death that is irreversible. We know much less when consciousness starts in a fetus. Why would some Christians want to define a human life worthy to bestow citizenship rights from the moment of conception, it baffles my mind?

Aniko 3

Please don’t spend the rest of your years on this earth, however, clinging to your notion that what you did was right. It is unhealthy and it can never bring the peace you long for. Don’t fall into Satan’s trap. He wants to convince you that you don’t need to follow God’s laws. He wants you to think you can do things your way – that as long as you have your reasons it’s ok.

They’re lies Aniko, ALL lies. The Prince of Lies loves nothing better than to lead people into the false belief that right and wrong don’t exist. He wants us to think we make our own truth. He did the same thing to Adam and Eve. Don’t fall for it. Snap out of it, before it’s too late.

It may be the hardest thing in the world to admit we are wrong, but one will never know real freedom until we do.

It may be humbling. You may have to give up a little pride, but what you get in return can’t compare. Why? Why hang on to your pride? Why insist you have done no wrong? What is it giving you?


Aniko 2

Aniko: I would have killed myself rather than succumb to their atrocities towards my nation

Jen: This is a difference between you and me. I believe there is a purpose in our suffering. We may not be able to see it at the time, but God has a plan. We can offer up all of our pain and suffering to Him. It is not up to us to decide who gets to live and die. We don’t get to play God. God and God alone is the author of life. He is a just and forgiving God, but how arrogant to think we know better than God. To think we can destroy life.

Do you think it pleases God that you are so ungrateful for His gift of life?



Aniko: See how quick you are to judge, without ever "walking in my moccasins" the proverbial 20 miles

Jen: I am not judging you. You wish I would tell you you are a bad person, so you can think of me as hypocritical and self-righteous. But I never said any such thing. I believe what you did was bad, but I believe you are good. You are a daughter of Christ and I hope to meet you some day, when we both leave this world. You sound like you might have some interesting stories to tell.

Aniko 1

Aniko: I am not at all grateful for my earthly life. I wish I would have never been born!

Jen: Aniko, I can understand why you may feel the way you do, but it is extremely unhealthy. Based on your posts, I really do think you need some help. You as the psychology field would say have some “issues.” And it is understandable that you do, however as Dr. Phil would say, “How’s that work’n for you?”

Is holding such anger and resentment having the pay off you desire? Is it helping you to be so bitter? Do you believe you are the only person to have suffered? Do you really feel more “free” having had the choice to kill your own babies? Is your current world-view the “freedom” you were hoping for in exercising your “right” to choose?

Aniko, you claim to have had such a tough life. Well, how much tougher would it have been to have kept your children? There is a peace that one experiences in doing what is right and following God’s will that can get one through even the toughest of situations. There is a joy in knowing we have remained true. True to God’s words and true to God’s laws. There is a strength that comes in knowing with God’s help all things are possible.

With God’s help, it is possible to overcome extreme poverty, starvation, physical abuse, communist regimes, exile, etc. None of it matters when we see the big picture. No one can take a person’s knowledge that they are a son or a daughter of Christ away. He is our Father and we are His children. Nothing else matters.



Do you think it pleases God that you are so ungrateful for His gift of life?

Jen continued
I am not insisting on my ideas for you to accept them. I don’t say the things I do to “make me feel good”. I utterly detest for you to use language like “lie” and “dishonesty” when you have no clue about me! I don’t regret my decisions, because they were the best actions at that time! Perhaps, if today I would have to do it over, given friendlier circumstances I would have done differently. You don’t know what it is like to be an immigrant, do you? Abortion, by most women who have love in their hearts, is not made out of selfishness or lack of love or trust in God. More often than not, are made out of desperate need, and perhaps not enough faith, I’ll grant you that much. But life on Earth, even here, even among so called “Christians” is not trust inspiring. Just listen to yourself how you are trying to put yourself “above” me in the eyes of the Lord! Do you remember how the apostles were always vying for positions in Christ’s love? They were equal to Him, because they all loved Him. I love Jesus, more than you’ll ever know! I stood up and stand up for Him, His righteousness and His love wherever I am! And you know what? He loves me too!

Jen
Jen, to accuse me of dishonesty, once again is pure, narrow minded judgment, and slander (that is a sin!)! YOU ARE NOT CHRIST! God has not given you the right to judge my actions! In Romania I never even saw a Bible! It was illegal to have a Bible in your house! I knew people who spent years in jail because they kept their Bible from before the Communist came! I did not get the chance to develop any “relationship” as you would call it, with God! Thanks to Him I was helped into this country and got interested to understand God. I went to social clubs, you would call them “churches”. Nothing inspirational was spoken there, but a lot of “interpretations” about God, Jesus and the Scriptures. I just happened to have my own ideas about it, and everyone got “frustrated” with my understanding and interpretation of what we read. And they were all judging me for my “outlandish” ideas and offered “prayers” for me. Thanks a bunch! I was an outcast in churches here as I was in Romania. But then Jesus was an “outcast” among His own people, no?

Jen
I am not at all grateful for my earthly life. I wish I would have never been born! Not because I didn't get enough love from my family. I did, but the government where I spent the first third of my life nearly destroyed me. It was difficult in Romania to be a vociferous Communist dissenter, but twice as difficult to be a Hungarian minority dissenter. If they would not have exiled me, I would have killed myself rather than succumb to their atrocities towards my nation. See how quick you are to judge, without ever "walking in my moccasins" the proverbial 20 miles. Do you REALLY want to know my life? I will tell you, since I have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of! Not even my aborted pregnancies! Pregnancy is like a space flight: it can and should be aborted if it jeopardizes the LIVES in the cockpit! Think about it! God is much more powerful and a lot kinder towards us, sinners (you and I both) than you give Him credit! If I am a conscientious person and make decisions where the needs of those whom I am responsible for supersede an accidental "space flight", MY GOD, (maybe not yours) forgives me, and perhaps even expects me to proceed according to my best judgment! He gave the right to "help myself" and then He helped me too! If He would have wanted those pregnancies, HE WOULD HAVE BROUGHT IT TO FRUITION! I did my best, given the circumstances, and I did ask God's forgiveness if inadvertently went against His will! I do not have to ask forgiveness from those whom I did not hurt with my decision: not you, and not the "Christian" community!

Aniko 2


You are trying to make yourself feel better by saying if God had wanted to save my children, He would have. For if that is true, why not the reverse? You can’t claim to have faith that God would have saved your children if He wanted, but that He wouldn’t have protected you and them had you carried them to term. If you really believed in the power of God, what were you so afraid of? Does God not promise us He will take care of everything. Your actions don’t show your trust in God – they show a lack of trust. Your mother lacked that trust as well. And where did it get her?

You may think I am judging you, but I’m not. I just refuse to support your lie. I can’t tell you what you did was ok simply b/c I don’t want you to feel bad.

What is ok, is to admit when we’ve done wrong. We all have made mistakes. We all have been scared. God understands this. But as in the parable of the woman caught in adultery, Jesus never told her what she had done was ok. In fact, He called it a sin. He told her, “Go, and sin no more.”

I encourage you to be honest with yourself and honest with God. He’s waiting for you.

Aniko 1

Aniko, I feel for your situation, I really do, but your feelings do not change the truth that abortion is wrong. It is ALWAYS wrong. The good news is nothing is unforgivable. God can forgive you Aniko, but not if you insist you did nothing wrong.

What you write doesn’t even make sense. You wish your mother could have had the “right” to abort you, yet you are thankful for your gift of life. You do realize you would not be here had your mother been permitted to abort? And if you aren’t here, then your children (the loves of your life) are not here. Your illogic astounds me.

What makes you think your mother’s life would have been better had she had the “freedom” to abort? You really believe that would have given her more happiness?

Do you honestly believe your decision to abort has given you more happiness? We just get this one life, Aniko. And it goes by pretty fast. Kids grow up in the blink of an eye. Your family of 4 would be all grown up by now. You might have had to undergo some initial tough years, but as you and I both know, the time goes fast. The rough waters eventually pass. You could now have been able to look back on a decision to keep your babies and be at peace that although it wasn’t easy, it was the right thing to do.


Aniko

Aniko: The likes of you (evangelical-right-wing-nut-jobs), are as responsible for the erosion of the freedom of the INDIVIDUAL


Jen: I am not an evangelical. And I have no desire for a theocracy. I have no problem with the separation of church and state. I am extremely grateful for the religious freedom I am allowed in this country.

As I mentioned earlier, it isn’t about left and right for me or Democrat and Republican, it’s about truth.

To expect society to uphold truth has nothing to do with religion. It’s about maintaining the natural moral order. A society that fails to do so has no future.

You compare me to the Pharisees who wished to stone to death the adultererous, but I think you may have that a little backwards. Who is throwing the stones here? Those on the side of Life have no desire to prosecute women for having an abortion; we simply want to prevent the woman from stoning to death her baby.

Pro lifers offer love and support for the woman facing an unplanned pregnancy. It is the other side who throws stones by shouting words at her like, “A baby will ruin your body!”, “Babies are expensive and messy – kill it!”; “I won’t pay for your mistake – get rid of it!”, etc.



Anko: They too believed that their version of God and their interpretation of God’s laws had to be enforced brutally on the populace through their governments

Jen: who said anything about brutal enforcement? And would that be more or less brutal than sucking a babies brain out of its skull and stabbing it in the neck as is performed in partial birth abortions? Just curious.


Aniko, you are all outrage and emotion and no fact. We are all perfectly capable through logic and right reason able to know what is RIGHT (and this has nothing to do with religion). One can never have a “right” to that which is not RIGHT. It’s illogical.


Jen... Conclusion
If the Lord would have wanted me to have those two children, He would have stopped me, because He could have, as he did my mother. Don’t think that your power is greater than God’s or that the government was meant to have more right over individual decisions than the individual itself.

Jen...in conclusion
Jen I am not angry with you or anyone. I am angry with what happened to me in Romania! I was born in spite of my mother trying to abort me chemically. I adored my mother, God rest hoer soul, and understood her pain when she found out that she was pregnant with me, and could not afford to feed a 4th child. Because our Lord wanted me to be born, I am here today, but am not at all happy that it happened, when it happened, and how it happened: the dictator-in-chief of Romania, who was a hater as all Communist dictators were, FORCED my mother to have to endure an unwanted pregnancy. I cannot even imagine what it was like for her, to endure starvation while pregnant with me, to be able to feed her husband and her LIVE children! You cannot either! I was a joy in mother’s life and she regretted that she didn’t trust God when she got pregnant with me, but I absolved her of her guilt feeling: her attempt to save her children from starvation, was not her sin! I have two children for whom I would lay down my life anytime, anywhere to save theirs. I had two pregnancies that would have jeopardized their well-being as well as mine (their father was a brute and I could not have been able to defend more children and myself) and I aborted them. You , if you never had an abortion, can never imagine what it feels like to be put in the position to have to “wait” to get rid of a dangerous entity in your body (there used to be a waiting period imposed on women in NJ in 1970-ies). By dangerous I meant an entity that endangered my life as well as my children’s, because of the brute in our lives. Eventually I divorced this man, when the children reached enough understanding, and I am a “single” mother (my children are 33 and 27 by now). I could not use contraceptives because I had an early (20 years old) breast tumor, so I only had the rhythm method to use (with a non-cooperative husband).
I know I am no sinner for what I have done!

Jen 11:10 post part 2
Due to the shortness (2000 words) of postings we can never debate an issue adequately. It is not fair of you to bring in the issue of LIVE, thinking, feeling human beings into the issue of abortion of human life-form in its embryonic stage. When the debate of Terri Schiavo was raging, I was fully on the side of the blood-relatives. No governmental entity has the right to end a life, unless there are no blood relatives WILLING to undertake the care of that human being. Husbands and fathers, unfortunately by virtue of their gender are known to be more carnal than females are not as trustworthy to make decisions of life and death! On the same token, if there are no blood relatives to undertake the care of a child from its infancy to its adulthood (now-a-days that means at least the age of 24), then the biological mother-to-be has to have the right to decide whether she is willing to lend her body to the joys, perils and pains to carry the pregnancy to full term, plus the responsibility to lead that human being into full adulthood.
Your accusation does not hold water with someone like me. You don’t know anything about me, but, as many of your fanatical Christian church-goers, are ready and willing to judge, condemn and ostracize me. That is why the Constitution of our great nation has “secularized” the document, to separate the Church (any church) from law making. That is not enough for you, you want a theocracy in the USA, and it is no surprise that atheism is on the rise! You have every right to delineate and expect your church’s brethren to obey the “laws of YOUR church”. I belong to NO CHURCH , not because I don’t love God or Jesus, but because I SHALL NOT ACCEPT a human interlocutor to interpret the Holy Scriptures based on his or her understanding. The Lord has endowed me enough to be able to understand HIM and His Son’s laws (in the Bible Jesus tells us to interpret His parables based on our “discernment”), to be able to follow His and His son’s laws.

Jen 11:10 post
Jen, that is your shortcoming, and most Americans of today, that you never knew REAL curtailment of PHYSICAL freedom! My soul and my mind was free even in the darkest hours in Ceausescu’s Romania. I was exiled and my life was broken. I immigrated to this wonderful country and now I see the perils of dictatorship rearing its horrid head here! The likes of you (evangelical-right-wing-nut-jobs), are as responsible for the erosion of the freedom of the INDIVIDUAL (as the Constitution intended it to be, and God Himself created us to be), as are the Communist little dictators that get into the White House and the halls of Congress! If the likes of you give up on your political activism for a theocracy, maybe, just maybe, the seculars won’t succeed in transforming this nation into a Socialist (pre-cursor to Communist) governance. You, I believe I am correct in assessing that you are a “Christian”, through your limited intelligent rhetoric, are no better that the Muslims or the Orthodox Jews were in the times of Christ! They too believed that their version of God and their interpretation of God’s laws had to be enforced brutally on the populace through their governments. That is why Jesus had to die to eliminate man’s sins. By that God meant man’s presumptuous ways of interpreting the loving God, based on his selfish, self-righteous ways of dealing with whom he considers less worthy! In Jesus’ times they stoned the “adulterous” woman (she may have been pregnant for all we know), because the Sanhedrin ordered ignorant sinners to execute other sinners in the name of GOD! What did Jesus do? I am sure you know! The Catholic Church, in the same venue, executed “heretics” (sinners, or perceived sinners like scientists), because the Church created the “Kingdom of God” here on Earth! That in itself was sinful, non-biblical. It hey did not burn the heretic, they excommunicated him or her, so the believers like you, could execute them and the theocratic law would not condemn them.

Aniko

Aniko: You , and the likes of you infuriate me to no end with YOUR complete lack of logic! I AM a FULL GROWN, MATURE, INDEPENDENTLY LIVING HUMAN BEING!

If you consider yourself to be a CONSERVATIVE American, it just goes to show how being born into freedom, makes you unaware what FREEDOM really means!


Jen: So if a human being is dependent on another human being, they don’t deserve the same rights as you? That parapalegic who can’t feed himself? That Downs Syndrome child who will forever need adult supervision?

What if one human being isn’t as mature as another, do they get less rights? Should the intelligent have more rights than the stupid?

Shall we give each individual more rights every year as they get older? Those at 6 wks gestation get X, 6month gestation get 2X, 1 yr olds get 3X. Oh, wait, but then once you get to a certain age, you become dependent on other members of society again, so your life isn’t as valuable then, so I guess that plan might not work after all. We might have to use more of a bell curve for rights. What do you think?


I don’t deal in terms like liberal and conservative.

My freedom does not come from the gov’t. I could have been born in a communist country and I would be no less free. Perhaps you would be a little less angry if you too realized this. No gov’t could have that kind of hold on me. I have someone beyond Obama to answer to.

Jen
You , and the likes of you infuriate me to no end with YOUR complete lack of logic! I AM a FULL GROWN, MATURE, INDEPENDENTLY LIVING HUMAN BEING! The Constitution, as well as the Bible refers to the likes of me, as having a right to life, not MY, you understand MY embryo, growing inside MY body, not yours! You are no better than the Communists I so hated, who, like the present administration, wanted to force me to live according to THEIR standards of right and wrong. You are a self-serving hypocrite who has no clue what the GOD given freedom means! You spew your hatred towards me, and pretend to LOVE my aborted mbryos! Do you realize how inane that sounds? If you consider yourself to be a CONSERVATIVE American, it just goes to show how being born into freedom, makes you unaware what FREEDOM really means!

Aniko

Aniko: Late term abortion of a viable fetus is murder. Abortion in the earliest part of gestation isn't

Jen: Uhhhh, ok -- if you say so.

Aniko: YOU DO NOT INTERFERE with private citizens’, private decisions

Jen: As a private citizen I wish to kill you. Should the gov't interfere?


Don't ya just love the logic of the ill informed?

Abortion is not murder over 2000 word
You, none of you have the right to force legislation to curb my individual freedom, just because it makes you feel “righteous”! Can’t you see how wrong you are, even in the eyes of God? God makes the sun shine and the rain fall on sinners as well as the blameless. Who are you, man form dust, to interfere with God’s will? LET GOD, not man, decide over the fate of my soul, at the appropriate time and the appropriate place to judge me!

Abortion is not murder
Late term abortion of a viable fetus is murder. Abortion in the earliest part of gestation isn't. Conservative Americans value their individual right to decide over their private affairs, as long as it does not affect anyone else's life. I immigrated to this country in 1971 after I was exiled form an oppressive Ceausescu regime. Ceausescu and his Communist Romanian predecessor, Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej illegalized abortion to control its citizen's lives through financial pressure (it went well with nationalization of all private property!). I was happy when Roe v Wade gave freedom of self-determination to women equal to their male counterpart. I loved this country mainly because each and every individual had the right to conduct its life the best way it saw fit. Liberalism is what I hate since it gears the nation towards collectivist thinking in one form or another. Conservatives, who are flag-bearing anti abortionists, are no better than Ceausescu or Obama and his ilk. If you are a conservative in the traditional sense of the definition YOU DO NOT INTERFERE with private citizens’, private decisions. I mourn the conservative Republicans who are black-mailed by anachronistic religious fanatics and have lost all credibility due to the zealotry of anti-abortionists. Thanks to you fools, we have an Obama in the White House. If you keep this crap up, you will lose women voters and without strong support from women, you cannot win political leadership! I am no longer of child bearing age, and as such, I have no personal interest in this matter, however, my sense of right and wrong compels me to speak out: maybe some of you will get your heads our of your rear-end (and mine) and will fight for what is important to ALL of us! I agree with 99.9% of the conservative ideology and am ready to fight for it, except this nonsense of forcing women to give up their God-given (as Americans we call it “unalienable”) right to liberty and pursuit of happiness!

Rudolf

Rudolf: Perhaps you have missed developments in all of society over the last 100 years, but your view of sex - only when married, never birth control, the more children the better - is probably only supported by a few per cent of the population

Jen: I don't deal in what the majority of the population thinks -- I deal in truth.

Jen: newsflash!
Perhaps you have missed developments in all of society over the last 100 years, but your view of sex - only when married, never birth control, the more children the better - is probably only supported by a few per cent of the population. Most people do not want more than two (three) children and as a species we really don't want to double the world's population yet again. And, yes, lots of women who have sex worry about getting pregnant, which is completely normal.

Lon

Lon: But then, oddly, your response did not make the distinction between wanted and unwanted, or conceived and unconceived kids.

Jen: I guess I didn't think it necessary to distinguish between wanted and unwanted. This is a human being we are talking about. The human being should have the same rights as any other human being regardless of whether someone else considers them wanted or unwanted. I guess I just assumed such an idea would be obvious.

And I'm completely confused by your term conceived or unconceived kid. Can there be such a thing as an unconceived kid??

Lon: But the pro-life side claims to believe fetuses are people. If so one would think that they would be making sharp distinctions between contraception and abortion. What are we to make of the fact that in practice they don't?

Jen: A "contraceptive mentality" leads to an increase in abortion. Contraception and abortion are not the same thing, but they are related and in an opposite way then most people think.

Contraception isn't the answer to abortion -- it is the problem.

Rudolph
Rudolph: This whole topic is ridiculous. Who wants to go back to an era where women had to worry about being pregnant every time they had sex?

Jen: Why would a woman worry about the possiblity of being pregnant?

When did children stop being blessings and gifts?

When did we stop marveling at the idea of being co creators in bringing about life?

It's interesting how many share Obama's view that a child is a mistake. Interesting and sad.

Jen
Sanger's focus was on contraception. In the case of contraception there is nobody being killed, just someone not being conceived. So I take it from your point that you do not share Lopez antipathy to Sanger.

But then, oddly, your response did not make the distinction between wanted and unwanted, or conceived and unconceived kids.

Obviously people on the pro-chocie side do not believe that fetus' are persons, and so they have a consistent position based on a factual disagreement with you.

But the pro-life side claims to believe fetuses are people. If so one would think that they would be making sharp distinctions between contraception and abortion. What are we to make of the fact that in practice they don't?

Denise
Thank you for sharing a personal angle about [financial] immaturity and how it can wreck a marriage (and this situation surely will end badly). Probably they felt justified applying for gov't aid in sheer terms of the taxes they pay to support it. I am not sure I can honestly blame them on that basis, though no doubt you set them straight! :) These are probably the same folks who bought into the notion that it is necessary to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a blow-out wedding and reception-and then also had the gall to 'register' for an exotic honeymoon. Just wow.

We are not really in a position to buy much in the way of precious metals or diamonds and have them safely stashed wherever one stashes such things but the most important thing we don't have is any debt whatsoever, having paid the mortgage off last year. So, we are looking forward to a well-earned vacation abroad this year!


Ridiculous talk.
This whole topic is ridiculous. Who wants to go back to an era where women had to worry about being pregnant every time they had sex? How does that benfit their cause? Lots of birth control is available nowadays for women, I would say, use it as much as possible. Same goes for men. I don't care what Sanger advocated or if she was racist in her own time -not that unusual then; that does not change the fact that she was instrumental in advancing birth control in this country. Statitics suggest that American women are not very good about using birth control; just look at the rate of abortions in this country compared to other Western countries. That's too bad. It sure needs improvement.

Lily 2

She panics. She goes to fertility treatments. Forget it. She can’t wait. They use their savings to undergo in vitro, b/c she just has to have a baby of her own. It’s her right. They choose the embryos they wish to keep and discard the ones they have no use for. They have a successful pregnancy (yet it’s always in the back of her mind if getting rid of those extra embryos was the right thing to do).

Surprise! She gets pregnant again right away and her baby is only 6months old. How could that happen? I had so much trouble getting pregnant before. I’m not ready for another baby yet. This is not what I planned. This can’t be happening to me. Her husband is still frustrated from how the “trying to have a baby” sterilized their sex life. He also is angry that they have no savings left in the bank. Their marriage is beginning to feel the strain of having so much freedom.

Yes, thank you Mrs. Sanger for such reproductive freedom. Todays woman now can enjoy having so much control of her life. We are so lucky to live in a time where we have so many choices.

Lily 1


Lily, I guess what I would ask of you is do you think these women of past generations lives were miserable? Both men and women alike had shorter life spans. Yet you speak as if having so many children would have been awful. Did your ancestors say as much? Do you honestly believe their lives would have been more meaningful had they had fewer children? Our people who have fewer children today happier than those who have larger families?

You mentioned Sanger worked to give women control over their reproductive lives. I see todays woman as far from free. She engages in pre-marital sex b/c well birth control exists now and so she sees sex outside of marriage as an option. Then she stresses every month until she gets her period b/c no birth control is 100% effective.

She finally gets married and one would think she can relax a little. But she and her husband plan to wait 5 years to start a family (b/c well it’s the responsible thing to do). She feels she must plan and control her life down to a science. As soon as the 5 yrs. is up, she wants an instant family. What? She surprisingly realizes she doesn’t instantly get pregnant.

Why she planned to have 2 children if she got a boy and a girl, but possibly 3 children if the first two are the same sex. She wanted all of these children to be no more than 2 years a part. She planned to be done having children by the time she was 35. No one told her birth control pills can mess with her fertility. No one told her she might not be able to conceive right away.

pathetic elderly lilly
so the useless lilly, who claims to be close to 80 now dives in to relive the past.Fools like you always think nothing changes.

Funny how you lefties never talk of personal responsibility but the only mantra you fools believe in if it feels good do it right now.

But being a typical leftist fool you also expect society to pay for the raising of the lice the losers you enable produce.

But now the followers of the messiah will soon be demanding that old fools like you, take a dirt nap and leave your savings for the messiah to distribute as he sees fit.


Lily
You might not even be here if one of your grandparents of long ago had had an abortion. Maybe your grandfather or grandmother might have been aborted and lily would never have happened. Aren't you glad you are alive?

WritrMOM
Given the fact that the person inhabiting the White House is THE most prolific abortion provider in the world right now; and has the funding and support of PP; that a large percentage of those babies tortured and murdered are black..can anyone tell me why those
black pastors encouraged their flocks to vote for this evil person? (I won't call him a man).
It boggles the mine, you'd thing even the black liberation preachers would not support someone that wants to kill their own. And the bible believing pastors who encouraged their flocks to betray Jesus have a lot to answer for and
our God still reigns and will deal with them accordingly. All those who call themselves Christians black or white who voted for this person, in my view became enemies of the Cross.
They betrayed the Lord, just like Judas.

Ahhh to be free
Millions of unborn babies never get a chance to say those words.

Bruce

I hope that the "majority" like it when the Catholic Church closes all of its hospitals nationwide, which by the way, provide 15% of the country's hospital beds.

Personally, you guys in the so-called "majority" can do whatever the f*ck that you want as long as you stand out of my wallet.

Free my wallet and you get freedom to abort all the babies that you want!

Bruce

Bruce, trust me, I get it that artificial contraception is immoral is a hard truth to sell. And apparently the truth that abortion is immoral is also a hard truth to sell. Even though, our logic, reasoning, science, and conscious tell us that’s a baby growing inside there, we convince ourselves otherwise.

We shout that we love our spouse, even though we use contraception. “I love you so much honey. I give all of myself to you. Wait a minute, all of me accept that!”

It’s an interesting phenomenon really. I guess it makes us feel good if we can at least get enough other people to go along with us. We call ourselves enlightened and open minded.

We tell ourselves there is no one truth. Truth is whatever I wish it to be. I don’t want abortion to be wrong. I don’t want birth control to be immoral, and so it shant, for to my own self I must be true. I am free. Free to believe what I want. Free to do as I wish.

The sad part is when we eventually realize only TRUTH can bring freedom. We are deceiving ourselves into a false freedom. We continue telling ourselves “we are free!” , but then don’t understand why we aren’t at peace. We can’t figure out why we are so anxious. We can’t quite pin point why obnoxious conservative posters annoy us so much. Could it be that false freedom is not really freedom at all?

Could it be that we can no longer rely on reason and logic, because reason and logic are only on the side of truth. We are forced to rely only on our feelings. We resort to buzz words like “choice” and “responsible parenthood” to make our arguments.

Ahhhh . . . to be free . . . .

Why Social Conservatives Should Join...

Lilly
You make an excellent argument for birth control, but a poor argument for abortion.

A Woman's Right to Control Her Own Body
. . . is absolute. However, abortion involves a second very small and very helpless body. It is our disagreement on this point that creates all the trouble.

I believe that life begins at conception, as does my college biology textbook. It's not faith, it's science. Pro-abortion people believe life begins at birth to judge from their support of late term abortion. If I am wrong and make the law, I have seriously inconvenienced women. If you are wrong, you are killing a child. I choose to err on the side of caution and compassion.

To Jen
You ask why anyone should fear having a baby. Margaret Sanger could have answered that, since she lived and worked in a world where women routinely died as the result of too-frequent pregnancy and where many children did not survive childhood. My own 3 x great-grandmother had 16 children of whom only 5 survived. Another ancient grandmother had 14 pregnancies in 20 years of marriage---then she died. In doing genealogy, I have worked out the reproductive history of some of my female ancestors in the 18th and 19th centuries. Typically, they got pregnant with the next baby when the nursing baby was 7 or 8 months old---weaned the baby, got pregnant again---and often died young. Another of mine, on a pioneer farm, died at 36 leaving motherless a family of 7 children. Sanger worked to give women control over their reproductive lives as a matter of public health. Today, even with modern obstetrics, a woman's body wears out faster with pregnancies that are poorly spaced and too frequent.

O
The majority of Americans got their country back, politically, financially, and security threat-wise, so that's been taken care of.

Contrary to what you might read on this site, that same majority is also glad they're able to live as they wish regarding birth control, stem cells, and abortion as well.

Watching One's Back (while whistling,,,)
Important but it has to take like 7th or 8th place on the priority list. First we need to get our country back, politically, financially, and security threat-wise. Then pay attention to important social issues.

Jen
If you think it's accurate and reasonable to equate a married couple finding meaning in having sex together while using birth control with a drug addict enjoying his addiction, then it's easier to see why conservatives lost at the polls in Nov and why they are so puzzled as to why their policies are lacking in appeal.

A Private Matter....
Pro or Con, ANY issue about Abortion or NOT, is a subject that SHOULD BE PERSONAL, AND NONE OF THE POLITICOS OR GOVERNMENT'S BUSINESS. IT IS A
CHOICE, WHETHER TO OR NOT, AND MAKING IT A VERY POLITICAL FOOTBAll IS WRONG.

STAY THE HELL OUT OF IT, AND DEFINITELY IF A WOMAN HAS AN ABORTION, SHE(OR HE) HAS TO PAY FOR IT, .....NOT THE GOVERNMENT OR THE PEOPLE.

YOU CANNOT HAVE POLITICAL IDIOTS USING THIS ISSUE TO PANDER FOR VOTES ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, AND THAT INCLUDES THE RADICAL LEFT, AND THE LOONEY RIGHT EVANGELICALS. STAY OUT OF PERSONAL
BUSINESS, AS IT IS "NONE OF YOURS"

A Private Matter....
Pro or Con, ANY issue about Abortion or NOT, is a subject that SHOULD BE PERSONAL, AND NONE OF THE POLITICOS OR GOVERNMENT'S BUSINESS. IT IS A
CHOICE, WHETHER TO OR NOT, AND MAKING IT A VERY POLITICAL FOOTBAll IS WRONG.

STAY THE HELL OUT OF IT, AND DEFINITELY IF A WOMAN HAS AN ABORTION, SHE(OR HE) HAS TO PAY FOR IT, .....NOT THE GOVERNMENT OR THE PEOPLE.

YOU CANNOT HAVE POLITICAL IDIOTS USING THIS ISSUE TO PANDER FOR VOTES ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, AND THAT INCLUDES THE RADICAL LEFT, AND THE LOONEY RIGHT EVANGELICALS. STAY OUT OF PERSONAL
BUSINESS, AS IT IS "NONE OF YOURS"

Bruce 2

Bruce: There is ample evidence that having an unwanted child is among the leading causes of divorce

Jen: Again, aren’t you a little backward in your thinking? Don’t you think a spouse that does not want his/her spouse’s child have some serious marital problems to begin with?



Bruce: You ask, if there's no risk in getting pregnant when you're having sex, "where is the meaning in the marital act?" If you have to ask that, then I guess you've never had sex with your spouse using birth control.

Jen: You would be correct.



Bruce: All I can say is for my wife and I there's plenty of meaning in it, and anyone who would say there's not because we're using birth control is really stupid

Jen: This is almost an impossible thing to argue. It’s like asking the drug addict when he’s high if he’s happy. He insists he’s happy and barks that you can’t tell him he’s not. “How do you know what makes me happy?”

Yet, everyone else just looks at him, knowing it’s difficult to see a situation for what it really is when you are too close to it. It’s also difficult to see what we’re missing when we’re missing it.





Bruce 1

Bruce: You say people who get an abortion have severed themselves from responsibility--far from true.

Jen: You have got to be kidding. Murdering another human being, so that you can finish your schooling is responsible? Killing the baby in your womb b/c you had only planned on 2 kids not 3 is acting responsibly? You keep telling yourself that Bruce.

Bruce: There is not such thing as "a great deal of evidence of women reporting that their boyfriends forced them to have abortions.

Jen: You’ve got to be kidding!


Bruce: deciding to have a child because your contraceptive failed is perhaps among the worst reasons to have a baby.

Jen: I think you are a little backwards in your thinking here. Don’t you mean a person shouldn’t be engaging in the sexual act if they are not able and willing to have a baby?


Bruce: There IS ample evidence that many women who choose to have an abortions view their pregnancy as ending a life, and they take the responsibility for that decision very seriously. They choose differently than you would, but that's not evidence that they chose irresponsibly.

Jen: One more time – you’ve got to be kidding! Do you even hear what you are saying? If a person views their abortion as ending a life, how could it possibly be responsible to do so? Committing murder is not responsible (even you liberals cannot disguise it as such). How can murder ever be a responsible choice? You liberals don’t even realize what you are actually saying.


Bruce: You agree with Mr DeMarco that "contraception threatens marriage." Neither you nor he offer any evidence, substitution instead your wish that it was so.

Jen: I told you couples that do not practice contraception, have a lower divorce rate – look it up.




Question To The Pro-Choice Lobby

If the Pro-Lifer get out of your reproductive lives, will you get out of their economic lives?

You, guys, can have all of the abortions that you want. Just keep your hands out of my wallet.

Jen
You agree with Mr DeMarco that "contraception threatens marriage." Neither you nor he offer any evidence, substitution instead your wish that it was so.

There is ample evidence that having an unwanted child is among the leading causes of divorce, and that the divorce rate is higher among conservative Christians (including black Americans) than among athiests and agnostics. You ask "Why has the divorce rate increased since the introduction of birth control?" You should also ask "Why has the divorce rate increased since the introduction of jet air travel?" since coincidentially it began around the same time. Coincidence is not causation.

You ask, if there's no risk in getting pregnant when you're having sex, "where is the meaning in the marital act?" If you have to ask that, then I guess you've never had sex with your spouse using birth control. All I can say is for my wife and I there's plenty of meaning in it, and anyone who would say there's not because we're using birth control is really stupid and ....I don't know how to characterize it--it's so beyond being narrow minded, it's like what made people cling to the flat earth model even when it was so clear that wasn't how things really are.

Jen
You say people who get an abortion have severed themselves from responsibility--far from true. There is not such thing as "a great deal of evidence of women reporting that their boyfriends forced them to have abortions." Does it happen? I'm sure it does. A great deal of evidence--no. Choosing to have an abortion is in no way evidence of "severing yourself from responsibility." It's taking responsibility to follow through on what you started--if you had a contraceptive failure, then you didn't want to get pregnant, and deciding to have a child because your contraceptive failed is perhaps among the worst reasons to have a baby.

There IS ample evidence that many women who choose to have an abortions view their pregnancy as ending a life, and they take the responsibility for that decision very seriously. They choose differently than you would, but that's not evidence that they chose irresponsibly.


AliveInHim

Your comments remind me of a situation in which my mother sought my legal advice only last week. One of her employees, who is married, is 8 months pregnant, bought a new home a year ago, both she and her husband have brand new cars, both have full-time, full-pay jobs, and take foreign vacations every year, asked my mother to fill out an employment/income verification so that she could apply for WIC!

Maybe, the employee shouldn't have gotten married or pregnant or bought a house or bought two cars or took annual foreign vacations, if she could not afford it.

Any or all of these would have negated the necessity for governmental assistance.

So, Alice,
you're wanting Socialism? I hear France has an open border...

"Contraception" is NOT essential to a good marriage. How silly you are to assert that children are the biggest threat to marital happiness. Selfishness and immaturity, on the other hand, are. So is financial foolishness; nobody, but nobody starts out being able to afford the 500k home, two upscale autos, vacations abroad, etc. Those are earned, and take years to attain, if they are ever attained. That many won't is simply a fact of life having more to do with personal choice in educating oneself, drive and focus than it does with condoms.

If couples wishing to marry haven't come to agreement on the big questions of children, money and religion, all the contraceptives in the world won't help.

Lon

Lon: The fact that so many comments miss this distinction suggests that the people making the argument are not thinking about the actual children involved. I am not sure how one could miss this distinction if one really cared about the children.

Jen: A little ironic don’t you think?? To argue that abortion is an acceptable alternative to prevent unwanted children as caring about the actual children involved?? How exactly is murdering the child, actually caring about the child? Whose best interest do you have in mind?

See, this is the twisted mindset of the left that we need to bring to light. They say a lot of eloquent words and are even complimented by fellow posters as being reasoned and cogent. Yet, where’s the reason? Where’s the logic?

I love you, so I’m going to kill you!

Hmmm????

Bruce and Unsupported Claims? 2

Bruce: -Fruitfulness is feared

Jen: No? Then why not be fruitful? Since most people choose contraception , it signifies they fear having a baby. Why else would you contracept? Why else would a person take an oral drug every day? Why else would a person choose a condom over the real thing? What are they afraid of, if not fertility????



Bruce: And here's the big whopper, the slam-bang finish, the double-doozy, wall-eyed crazy nut job wind up: "If the drama and mystery of procreation is not celebrated, at least symbolically, the partners will disappoint each other and will inevitably turn their attentions to others."

Jen: No? If spouses believe procreation is no big deal and don’t see themselves as co-creators and don’t view their fertility as amazing and awesome, but merely recreational, where is the meaning in the marital act? Are the spouses simply scratching each others itches? And if sex can be viewed as merely recreational, then why be married? How does separating the procreative function of the sexual act not reduce it to a merely selfish pleasure? I believe it perfectly logical to conclude such. And the rise in infidelity and promiscuity prove it.

You are not unlike men who do not believe that if they are subjected to p*rnography at a young age and continually view p*rn, they begin to view women as objects. This is shown time and time again in our society. Some will never admit such a finding, yet for those who are honest, it is more than logical and reasonable to derive at such a conclusion.
Similarly, Bruce, you are unable to make the connection between contraceptive use and abortion. You fail to see how the “contraceptive mentality” is real and has had devastating results on our culture. You remind me of my little boy, “But Mom, I promise I won’t get a tummy ache if I eat this bowl of jelly beans before dinner. Come on Mom. A few jelly beans never hurt anyone!”





Bruce and Unsupported Claims? 1

Bruce: Mr. DeMarco makes a number of silly, wrong, and unsupported claims, such as:

-People who use contraception believe they have severed themselves from all responsibility if a pregnancy results from contraceptive failure;

Jen: No? Then why do men walk? Why is there a great deal of evidence of women reporting that their boyfriends forced them to have abortions?
Is it not obvious that when contraception fails, those involved can simply say, “I did the responsible thing. I took precautions. This wasn’t supposed to happen. I didn’t ask for a kid, therefore, I don’t have to keep it. Looks like I’m off the hook.”

This is the psychological truth of the situation, whether you want to admit it or not, Bruce. Pregnancy is not viewed as a human life, the contracepting couple now views it as a problem to be solved.



Bruce: -Contraception threatens marriage;

Jen: No? why, then do couples who do not contracept have a lower divorce rate? Why has the divorce rate increased since the introduction of birth control?



Bruce: -At the core of the contraceptive mentality is the fear of babies

Jen: No? Then what is it a fear of? What do you think contraception prevents? Do people use contraception b/c they are afraid of heights or afraid of getting pregnant?



Gretchen is Right
Abortion is used as a "contraceptive," or more accurately, as another form of birth control.

While its far from desirable as a form of birth control, in my opinion it's preferable to having the child if it's not wanted or if the parent(s) don't have the means (financially or otherwise) to raise it properly.

Lon @ 4:08

If all the methods of contraception were employed, abortios would not be"necessary," except in those rare instances where the mother's life is in the balance, or in the case of tyhe rape of someone not having access to contraceptives at the time of the rape.

Let's faceit, abortion *IS USED* as a contraceptive.

Ms Kelly
Do not assume facts not in evidence. You know nothing about me, so your comments about Islam are uncalled for and disrespectful to Islam or to any other self-respecting religion.

As for the comment about the "kinds of humans running the earth", well, I will leave that to the collective voting public, of which I am a member in good standing.

What I want is a world where people and wildlife have a fighting chance of survival. Where there is food and a place for all. What I want for the future is respect for difference of opinion and freedom from the religious type, who castigate everyone not like themselves.
What I want is a country were the "common good" is more than just words on a page.

Lon
Great post. Reasoned, cogent and doesn't denigrate Obama or Bush. More of these please.

On a related point
There is an odd thread in the article and comments to conflate wanting fewer unwanted babies, and wanting fewer babies. These are very different things. It is hard to imagine that any poor community would like to have there be more babies in that community whose parents cannot afford to raise them.

Raising children is really one of these things in which quantity is not superior to quality. A woman who does not have children when she is not ready to raise them, and then has children later when she is in a position to care for them, has helped her community more than one who has many children who she cannot provide for.

The fact that so many comments miss this distinction suggests that the people making the argument are not thinking about the actual children involved. I am not sure how one could miss this distinction if one really cared about the children.

One can decrease the number of unwanted children by encouraging abstinence, by making contraception more widely available, or by abortion. There are of course important differences between these methods, but they all have the effect of decreasing the number of unwanted children. Trying to turn that into an argument that people advocating these things must be racists is absurd. And of course those advocating abstinence would see the stupidity of trying to object to this on the grounds that unwanted babies are disproportionately minority. But the argument is equally inane when used against the people you disagree with.

Sanger
It is the nature of people who change the world that it can be hard to appreciate what they did because one sees the world after the change and so can have trouble appreciating the situation beforehand.

Sanger was working at a time in which it was common for women to keep having babies until having babies killed them. A traditionalist attitude which required women to submit to husbands and disallowed birth control naturally led to that situation in many cases, particularly among the poor.

Thanks to Sanger, and those who followed her, that is a pretty rare phenomenon today. But the result is that instead of getting credit for what is a really positive accomplishment, it becomes possible to take what she says out of context and make it look different than it is. Sometimes this is done apparently intentionally like whoever first took her comment that she didn't want blacks to get the false idea that they were trying to eliminate blacks and edited into the claim that they were trying to eliminate blacks.

Today, of course, the availability of contraception is so natural that Gretchen above can use it as an argument against the necessity of abortion. But that is because we live in a world that has been improved in a concrete way. And Sanger was instrumental to that improvement.

cleverness of me @ 2:52, cont.

Check out:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId= 92288

The article raises great cause for concern. When you reach the phrae "a marching squad of Obama youth" click on the link -- the film is truly frightening!

cleverness of me @ 2:52

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed this frightening tendancy. I wonder when the Capitol (the closest thing we have to a Reichstag) will be burnt, and blamed on "the vast right-wing conspiracy".

The government has 80,000 troops, back from Iraq, held in readiness for an "uprising" -- and I'm not talking about teabags!

Alice
"humans are not an endangered species..."

Maybe not humans, but what kind of humans do you want running the earth?

Do you want your children or perhaps your grandchildren (assuming you have any) living under Islamic Fundamentalism?

Then again, you might be thinking "I won't be here, so why do I care."

Bruce needs to be neutered!
At the core of of contraceptaive use is the desire to not have any more kids than one wants or can afford or can have in a healthy and safe manner.

Most men do not want 5 or 6 kids to support; and most women do not want 5 or 6 kids to raise.
Most people now days cannot afford that many kids and do not want them.

Lack of contraception as well as financial stability is what threatens marriages today; most men today, do not think of their wives as incubators for unwanted children. Most men that I am quite familiar with, want to be able to provide adequately for their children and in today's work environment, being able to provide for kids, even with 2 incomes, is becoming increasingly difficult.

We have 6 billion + people on this planet; more than has ever been. . .humans are not an endangered species, even in this country.

Time magazine on Sanger
From its Time 100 feature, on the 100 most influential people of the 20th century:

There is still an effort to distort her goal of giving women control over their bodies by attributing such quotes to Sanger as "More children from the fit, less from the unfit — that is the chief issue of birth control." Sanger didn't say those words; in fact, she condemned them as a eugenicist argument for "cradle competition." To her, poor mental development was largely the result of poverty, overpopulation and the lack of attention to children. She correctly foresaw racism as the nation's major challenge, conducted surveys that countered stereotypes regarding the black community and birth control, and established clinics in the rural South with the help of such African-American leaders as W.E.B. Du Bois and Mary McLeod Bethune.

'Nuff said.

Cleverness Eludes You
"cleverness" needs to put some initials by his posts to attempt to bolster the weak argument.

Actually, calling his argument weak is an insult to weak arguments...

God’s first words...
to Adam and Eve were “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it”.

Many Christians ignored this command from God because we believed that the earth had been adequately replenished. What we missed was the second part of this command. To subdue means to bring under control, to make subordinate, or to hold within limits.

As we look around our world today, we see that it is out of control. Maybe the reason for this is that Christians have shirked their responsibility to subdue the earth. We cannot subdue the majority. If God’s people are a minority, then it is we who will be made submissive.

The original citizens of Western Europe today have become a minority because of their unwillingness to inconvenience themselves with children. They have not replaced themselves and so must open their borders to Islamic immigrants to supply the needed tax base and labor for their many entitlements. Those immigrants bring with them a culture of death and tyranny that threatens the whole world. By their massive birth rates Islamists are taking over the world and taking from the Christians their natural rights and way of life.

We have been fools. We thought we knew better than God, so we ignored his warning. We are going to pay the price and so will our children and grandchildren. Unless we repent and go back to embracing God’s commands and recognize that he ALWAYS has a reason for his commandments, we will hand the world over to a dark and deadly master who has shown himself wiser than we.


Note the reference to religion
We are about to face a Fascist America, only instead of the Jews being the scapegoat, it is Christians who are blamed for holding back progress and denying people their "rights". We are "Goldstein" for "1984". We are the undesirables, enemies of the state and defectives.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Jen:
If I'm suspicious of people who feel the need to post their credentials, it's because (as in this case) the reasoning usually tends to be poor. If you thought that liberals value PhDs over sound reasoning, then your reasoning is poor.

I'd be happy to elaborate on the weaknesses in the article--it can be quick.

Mr. DeMarco makes a number of silly, wrong, and unsupported claims, such as:

-People who use contraception believe they have severed themselves from all responsibility if a pregnancy results from contraceptive failure;

-Contraception threatens marriage;

-At the core of the contraceptive mentality is the fear of babies

-Fruitfulness is feared

And here's the big whopper, the slam-bang finish, the double-doozy, wall-eyed crazy nut job wind up: "If the drama and mystery of procreation is not celebrated, at least symbolically, the partners will disappoint each other and will inevitably turn their attentions to others."

Credit here to Mr. DeMarco for making my point so eloquently.


Bruce 2


cont . . .

“Let us express it in another way. It is far more logical and realistic to revolutionize society by teaching men to be virtuous, since virtue is a perfection of something natural, than it is to effect the same revolution by being indifferent to virtue and trying to suppress the evil consequences of men's vices through technological interventions. This is not to say that virtue or civilized society come easily; in fact, their achievement demands the development and pooling of every gift men have (and then some). But it is to say that it is the only way that is logical and realistic.

The story is a parable for fighting abortion. Since abortion thrives on the contraceptive mentality, we fight abortion realistically not by doubling our efforts to intensify the contraceptive mentality, but by working to eliminate it. But this first step—the realistic assessment of the enemy — is a step our society has not yet taken. Indeed, at the present moment most indications are that it would "rather be ruined than change.” –Donald DeMarco, PHD

Bruce 1

I wasn’t familiar with the article you found on your search of “contraceptive mentality”, so I looked it up myself. I agree it may be a little “wordy”, but makes some great points . . .


“There is only one way to reduce abortion, and that is to reduce its cause, which is in the contraceptive mentality. And the contraceptive mentality can be reduced only by recognizing that procreation is good and by repudiating the attitude that endorses the violent negation of that good. It is surely illogical and unrealistic to try to establish a truly humane civilization where every human being has a right to live by beginning with the idea of reducing abortion, and remaining unconvinced that the natural and procreative consequence of sexual intercourse is a real good. We cannot restore the moral health of civilization merely by eliminating something that is bad; we can restore it only by loving and embracing what is fundamentally good. We begin to build a humane civilization not backwards from the charred remains of a burned-out civilization, but forwards from the realization that new life is a great good."


Sorry for the typos....
"We want it hot, we now, and we want fast...and self control is not PC."

Should read: We want it hot, we want it now, and we want it fast, and self control is not PC!

Contraceptive Mentality?
The lack of use of contraceptives is the same reason why we have an obesity epidemic.

We want it hot, we now, and we want fast...and self control is not PC.

What is unfathomable to me
is the left not recognizing that they are aborting themselves into the red!

Just think what those 30 million aborted people would mean to the insolvency of SS. MediCare, Medicaid, and Medicare Part D.

Hope the baby boomers like cat food because I will hide my income before I continue to finance this farce.

Bruce
Bruce: At your suggestion, I did a search on Contraceptive Mentality, and the first search result was an article by "Donald DeMarco, PhD" (never a good sign, putting the degree there for added support to a weak argument...)


Jen: Now that you are finished attacking the author of the article you read and an entire religious institution, The Catholic Church . . .

Care to elaborate on what specifically you take issue with regarding "contraceptive mentality"??

I thought you liberals loved your PHd's????


Jen in IL @ 1:40 P.M.

"Good point: "Contraception is the last taboo subject no one wants to address." I would have to say that abortion is the *ONE* form of contraception that is addressed *AD NAUSEUM* -- by both sides of the argument.

One can't help but wonder why that should be, especially considering all the in-you-face sex on TV, the Internet, Films, and print media.

OH, and thanks for the typo alert! My glasses are broken, and even though I DID proofread, I'm blind as the proverbial bat.

Jen
At your suggestion, I did a search on Contraceptive Mentality, and the first search result was an article by "Donald DeMarco, PhD" (never a good sign, putting the degree there for added support to a weak argument...)

Wow, I've never read such shocking drivel as this! If this is what passes for reasoning and analysis in Catholic circles, no wonder they get made fun of so often.

It's like a written rabbit's foot--it doesn't do anything, but it might make you feel better.


Progressive motto
Save a tree, Kill a baby. Enough said.

These wh0res do not deserve human kindness.

Gretchen

Gretchen: What baffles me is tha0t with all the forms of contraception available today -- from 'just saying no" up to and including the latest iteration of *NORPLANT* there are still so many abortions.


Jen: One would think since the readily made available use of contraception, abortion would have gone down, right? WRONG!

We might want to ask ourselves why that is? Anyone interested should do an internet search on the “contraceptive mentality.” It explains why contraception is not the answer.

Contraception is the last taboo topic no one wants to honestly address. Unfortunately, until we do, we will never decrease abortion.

Sanger was a profound racist
How about the fact that the majority of babies aborted in America are African-American children?
Can you imagine the uproar if any Republican politician happened to remark like Sanger that "We want fewer and better Black children ... and we cannot make the social life and the world-peace we are determined to make, with the ill-bred, ill-trained swarms of inferior Blacks that you inflict on us"—?
The world would denounce that as a horrible racist remark!
Yet that is exactly what is happening every day—innocent black children denied the right to life.


What baffles me

. . . is tha0t with all the forms of contraception available today -- from 'just saying no" up to and including the latest iteration of *NORPLANT* there are still so many abortions.

And what about the families who desperately want children, but for medical reasons are unable to conceive or bear children? Surely these "unwanted" babies could be placed with loving families rather than killed.

Interesting quote
What did Weddington mean when he said, "...We don't have much time left". Could he hopefully have been speaking unwitting words of doom for him and his movement? Let's hope so. Let's hope they sense an end to abortion that we pro-lifers can't see yet.

Ref RWR post at 9:28
Actually Hitler got his Ideas from Sanger and the Eugenics laws that were in effect in Virginia.

Va had mandatory sterilization for anyone committed to a mental institute and continued this into the 70's

Eugenics and Other Evils
If you are interested in another good book on eugenics, then consider "Eugenics and Other Evils" by G.K. Chesterton. It makes a good case against a society organized around science alone. And this is from 1922.

Sanger a racist! Where's Al Sharpton?
Sangers view on culling the offspring of the poor & uneducated (ie, black and brown skin people) has its roots in the eugenics movement of the 30's, led by leading scientist of the Nazi Party.

Hitler must be pleased that his movement has found spectacular success in the "liberal and enlightened West". And just like Hitler, many of these Western intellectuals find solace in the protection of animals yet choose to destroy the foundation of the human existence.

Hitler and Western liberals. They love animals, cant stand human beings.

Has anyone told Obama
that 40% of his potential voting bloc (the abortion rate in the Black community) is aborted every year?

Robert Heinlein said once that it is a bad idea to appeal to a man's better nature; he may not have one. But appealing to his self-interest is always in order.

Government funds Planned Parenthood
and Planned Parenthood turns around and funds Democrat politicians. It's that simple. Planned Parenthood isn't the only organization doing this. What was Fannie and Freddie doing?

Abortion is
simply a case of one person deciding that another's life is not worth living. Or, in the case of irresponsible men and women, it's simply another way for them to get what they want without having to commit to anything more than their own pleasure. It is selfishness on parade.

The pro-abortion movement would not use euphemisms for what they do if they didn't know exactly what it is they support. It is of vital importance that the product they sell (abortions are never given away, for all it is touted as being a 'right') is not sold as child-killing. There just isn't as much money to be made in advertising killing babies as there is in promoting womens' 'reproductive rights'. That's your ultimate bait and switch.

If the unborn is not a child, then you are not pregnant.




F1etch
I was trying to think of a good comeback for Jason. I'll ditto yours.

Jason
"this coming from a woman who has neve been laid. case closed."

And THAT came from the son of a woman who should never have been. Case closed.

The Progressive Crusade
A review from a Jealous God, to the point of the column:

"A Jealous God" strips away its stealthy patina, exposing it for what it is: a power grab by a self-appointed elite with a "progressive" social agenda. Shockingly, this book exposes the eugenics roots of the stem cell research movement, and those roots are steeped in racism, as the author makes painfully clear. These benevolent folks would reengineer our very substance, and, as the author shows, are arrogant enough to believe that they are actually entitled to force all of us to fund their efforts!

Like the author, I am not a religious person. I am skeptical of revealed truth. I remain no less skeptical of some supposed "truths" reported widely and enthusiastically (dare I say zealously) under the rubric of "science," particularly when, most improbably, these truths all seem to converge at a locus inhabited by elites which would exercise political power over every aspect of every human life, right down to our genes - for our own good, of course.

This book calmly and dispassionately shows with meticulous facts that it is not enough that science long ago routed religion as the source of knowledge of the cosmos. The author cites Professor Peter Singer of Princeton, who says that the Ten Commandments must be replaced with ten new ones. For instance, "Thou shalt not kill," will be redacted to say that humans should be killed under certain circumstances. "A Jealous God" makes it clear that, should the political/celebrity/progressive "science" prevail, when all the new commandments are written, there is likely to be one holdover: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." The author makes that conclusion inescapable, based upon much evidence.




More Sanger disciples of death
More Peter Singer, the famous atheist. Makes you want to run out and become an atheist:

townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2008/05/12.

"My colleague Helga Kuhse and I suggest that a period of twenty-eight days after birth might be allowed before an infant is accepted as having the same right to life as others."


Dinesh D'Souza : Atheism and Child Murder - Townhall.com
townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2008/05/12...
On why abortion is less morally significant than killing a rat: "Rats are indisputably more aware of their surroundings, and more able to respond in purposeful and complex ways to things they like or dislike, than a fetus at ten or even thirty-two weeks gestation."

Dinesh D'Souza : Atheism and Child Murder - Townhall.com
townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2008/05/12...
On why infants aren't normal human beings with rights to life and liberty: "Characteristics like rationality, autonomy and self-consciousness...make a difference. Infants lack these characteristics. Killing them, therefore, cannot be equated with killing normal human beings"

An atheist philosophy of life. Courtesy of eugenics, Darwin, and the atheist religion of death.

The Sanger disciples beliefs:
Peter Singer intellectual atheist leader:

Rational Analysis
http://www.atheism-analyzed.net/Atheist%20Talking%20Po...

“Some of my conclusions have been found shocking, and not only in respect of animals. In Germany, my advocacy of active euthanasia for severely disabled newborn infants has generated heated controversy. I first discussed this in Practical Ethics; later, as co-author, with Helga Kuhse, in Should the Baby Live?, 1985; and most recently in Rethinking Life and Death, 1995. Perhaps it is only to be expected, though, that there should be heated opposition to an ethic that challenges the hitherto generally accepted ethical superiority of human beings, and the traditional view of the sanctity of human life.”

Peter Singer


Another Sanger disciple.


More to post.

Great Posts Denise

Here's something to think about

From American Thinker, an excerpt summary of Obama’s efforts to help ACORN, which has a very long history with Cloward-Piven believers:

As a community activist for ACORN; as a leadership trainer for ACORN; as a lead organizer for ACORN’s Project Vote; as an attorney representing ACORN’s successful efforts to impose Motor Voter regulations in Illinois; as ACORN’s representative in lobbying for the expansion of high risk housing loans through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that led to the current crisis; as a recipient of their assistance in his political campaigns — both with money and campaign workers; it is doubtful that he (Obama) was unaware of ACORN’s true goals. It is doubtful he was unaware of the Cloward-Piven Strategy.

Revolting post!
Please don't reply directly to really revolting posts. Scum like that do not deserve any direct attention.

The Sins Of The Progressive Party 3

As an American woman, what I find especially offending is the Obama bowed to a misogynistic Saudi King. Having had to curtsey to a man's bow hundreds of times, I know what a bow is and the fact that a sitting Head of State would proffer himself, in such a manner, is troubling to say the least. I felt the same way when George W. Bush kissed the Saudi King. Our sovereignty and the rights of our female citizens are much more important and should not be made self-servient to OPEC.

When Hillary Clinton, during the Presidential campaign, identified herself as Progressive in the Early 20th Century sense, my blood ran cold. I expected more from her considering that, in the early 20th century Progressive Era, she would have been put into a mental institution long before she ever got to run for President.

The Sins Of The Progressive Party 2

Domestically, FDR continued Progressivism in American through the fascist merger of state and government-run business; the growth of government to the exclusion of the individual; collectivist ideals over private property rights; the targeting of individuals for government criminal action (Mellon based on an attempt to use tax laws retroactively in an effort to criminalize and four Schechter brothers, who ran afoul of the fascist NRA because they operated a kosher poultry butcher shop); attempted Supreme Court expansion because of the justices upheld the Constitution when the Administration insisted that such was a "living and breathing document" to be interpreted from the bench depending upon the will of the Administration or "sign of the times."

Although FDR had been more of an isolationist at the beginning than both Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, whose League of Nations, when failed, gave rise to equally failed institution of the United Nations, FDR's drunken, map-drawing of the World with Uncle Joe and Winston Churchill is still causing problems for us today. The Middle East is a case-in-point.

Like most, I found it particularly insulting for the President of the United States to apologize to everyone for our "arrogance", but purposefully opt not to visit the graves of our American war dead, whose involvement in all things European could have been seen as arrogant, but no one, including the Germans, who are ashamed of Hitler and The Third Reich, would have been "offended". Further, I found it offending that the graves of Christian and Jew war heroes were ignored, but the visitation of a historical mosque is to be acceptable???

The Sins Of The Progressive Party 1
Progressivism is Pathetic and, in my view, unpatriotic.

The Early Progressive Movement gave us the notion that private property be subrogated for the greater good (Teddy Roosevelt); gave birth to the Internal Revenue Service; the Federal Reserve; the imprisonment of ~150,000 Americans for all sorts of things, including one that made a film that disparaged the British pre-Revolutionary War in an unfavorable light; The "Wilsonian" Dime that incorporated the three symbols of early Roman fascism; eugenics; the committal of suffragettes into mental institutions; prohibition (not that I care about alcohol, but just abhor idea of the government interfering in personal behavior; the treatment of homosexuality as a mental disease; the attempt to replace religion with a dogma of the State; the League of Nations (which we ultimately did not join) to pursue a New World Order and the ceding of State sovereignty; and the failed Versailles Treaty that placed such crushing reparations on Germany that the Weimar government ultimately failed, gave rise to Hitler, and the end of what was, in essence WWI''s cease-fire, and WWII (all Wilson).

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