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Sunday, October 19, 2008
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Upper Crust of Progressive Episcopalians
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- The Rev. Robert Duncan, 60, is not a Lutheran, but he is a Luther, of sorts. The former Episcopal bishop of Pittsburgh has, in effect, said the words with which Martin Luther shattered Christendom and asserted the primacy of individual judgment and conscience that defines the modern temperament: "Ich kann nicht anders" -- I cannot do otherwise.

The Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh recently became the second diocese (the first was in Fresno, Calif.) to secede from the U.S. Episcopal Church since, but not entirely because of, the 2003 ordination in New Hampshire of an openly gay bishop -- Gene Robinson, a classmate of Duncan's at General Theological Seminary in New York in the 1970s. Before the Robinson controversy, other Episcopalians, from South Carolina to Southern California, had disassociated from the Episcopal Church and put themselves under the authority of conservative Anglican bishops who serve where the church is flourishing -- often in sub-Saharan Africa, where a majority of Anglicans live.

It is not the secessionists such as Duncan who are, as critics charge, obsessed with homosexuality. The Episcopal Church's leadership is latitudinarian -- tolerant to the point of incoherence, Duncan and kindred spirits think -- about clergy who deviate from traditional church teachings concerning such core doctrines as the divinity of Christ, the authority of scripture and the path to salvation. But the national church insists on the ordination of openly gay clergy and on blessing same-sex unions.

In the 1960s, Bishop James Pike of California, who urged the church to jettison such "theological baggage" as the doctrines of Original Sin and the Trinity, was the last active bishop disciplined for theological reasons. Duncan doubts whether Pike would be disciplined today.

Duncan became a bishop in 1995, at age 47, in an Episcopal Church already roiled by dissension about the ordination of women, revision of the prayer book and other matters. But, Duncan says, "I wish it" -- the issue that finally precipitated secession -- "had been some other issue." He means some controversy, other than Robinson's ordination, turning on scriptural authority.

The shrinking Episcopal Church (2.4 million members, down from 3.5 million at its peak in 1965) is a small sliver of the worldwide Anglican communion (at least 77 million and expanding rapidly). Its travails are, Duncan says, yet another lingering echo of the 1960s.

The Anglican communion once was a "via media," a middle way, between Catholicism and Protestantism. Now, Duncan says, the national leadership of the Episcopal Church thinks of itself as a bridge between Protestantism and the culture. Duncan and other protesters agree with the late Flannery O'Connor, the Catholic novelist: "You have to push as hard as the age that pushes against you."

Every 10 years there is a Lambeth Conference of Anglican bishops, presided over by the archbishop of Canterbury. This year only 650 of the nearly 900 bishops attended -- 150 of them representing only the tiny U.S communion. The bishops from three of the Anglican communion's five largest provinces -- Nigeria, Uganda and Kenya -- boycotted.

Today, the typical Anglican is a middle-aged African woman. The burgeoning Nigerian church says it has 20 million Anglicans; Duncan believes it may have 25 million but perhaps chooses to underreport so as not to exacerbate tensions with Nigerian Muslims.

In London, more Muslims attend Friday prayers than Anglicans attend Sunday services. Last December, on the Sunday after former Prime Minister Tony Blair was received into the Catholic Church, more Catholics than Anglicans attended services in England, an increasingly common occurrence now, five centuries after the Reformation.

"I think," Duncan says, "the 21st century will be for the archbishop of Canterbury what the 20th century was for the royal family." That is, an era of diminution.

Because Protestantism has no structure of authority comparable to the Vatican, and because it does not merely tolerate but enjoins individual judgments by "the priesthood of all believers" concerning beliefs and obligations, all Protestants are potential Luthers. Hence it is evidence of spiritual vigor that Episcopalians in Quincy, Ill., and Fort Worth, Texas, will vote on disassociation from the U.S. communion on Nov. 7 and Nov. 14, respectively.

The Episcopal Church once was America's upper crust at prayer. Today it is "progressive" politics cloaked -- very thinly -- in piety. Episcopalians' discontents tell a cautionary tale for political as well as religious associations. As the church's doctrines have become more elastic, the church has contracted. It celebrates an "inclusiveness" that includes fewer and fewer members.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Shrug
The decline of the Episcopal Church into the morass of liberalism was clearly defined during the recent convention of the Diocese of Bethlehem (PA) at which the bishop advocated the election of Obama, without specifically mentioning the candidate's name, by virtually endorsing the Democrat platform as the beliefs of the Church. And they question why I refuse to contribute any more money to support their left-wing political activism?

Don
"I must also add that there are churches that allow women to be ministers and clergy. And this too is in opposition to the word of God. For scripture is very clear that a woman cannot hold any position within the church which would place her in authority over a man."

Well that would leave out the Anglicans, since the church is headed by Queen Elizabeth II, Defender of the Faith

Many are missing Will's point
As I read it, Geo. Will is using the decline of the Episcopalian Church not only to illustrate the disastrous and failed results of infusing culture into biblical creed, but to also illuminate the inevitable results that will be/are being realized through the liberal undermining of the basic principles that are the foundation of our constitution. If Obama is elected, the pace at which that erosion is taking place will be greatly hastened.

Of course, that will only hasten one of the greatest lessons we learn as human beings - that there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, that the good news of the Gospel is the great gift of salvation that comes only by Grace, through Faith, because of Christ. This is the lesson that so many protestant churches have forgotten in their rush to embrace culture, and this is the foundational lesson upon which Christ built His church.

(to Andy in NC - yes, thankfully there are many congregations that haven't lost their way. God always keeps his promises. The Church has survived far worse attempts by man to destroy it both from within and without.)

Which is it?
Will says Episcopalians are denying "core articles" of the faith. Every Sunday, we Episcopalians stand up and affirm the divinity of Christ and the path to salvation. Do some Episcopalian priests and scholars question some core articles of the faith? Yes, they do, just as some Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, etc., do. Have people challenged core articles of the faith in the past? Yes, they have, and some were persecuted or even killed for questioning the doctrines that the sun revolved around the earth, that people should be not be permitted to read the Bible in their own language, that kings rule by divine right, or that slaves should obey their masters.

Andy
Thanks for the information.

The truth is that I just want my Church, the traditional Episcopal Church, to be restored from the wreckage caused by the liberals. The presence of breakaway dioceses, like the Diocese of Pittsburgh, offers some hope. Unfortunately, the national church fights these movements at every turn, particularly by confiscating church property. It will be a long, difficult struggle.

Give Mr. Will some credit
He probably assumes, quite rightly in my opinion, that, at this late date, whatever has needed to be said about the election has already been said and those who have not yet made up their minds are not worth wasting any more time on.

I recall his column years ago, when it appeared inevitable that Clinton would be re-elected in which he suggested that we would survive that fiasco.

There are, after all, some things that are far more important than who is president of a nation in its decline.


prpl
Thanks for responding.

No, I don't expect that your issue is solely the issue of homosexuality in both the church body and the clergy (where I come form, they are actually one and the same but that's not our discussion), in fact, I assumed that since you were able to see through that one, you probably can see through many others.

My only concern is with how far back you are looking.

Shrug and Charles and Decline of Episcop
As many of the rich reformed orthodox churches decline, check out one that is thriving, robust and growing. It includes rich liturgy, high view of holiness and inerrant scripture. Be encouraged!
Pennsylvania:
http://www.allsaintspresbyterian.com/
Elsewhere:
http://www.crechurches.org/

GEORGE YOUR ARTICLE WARPS THE BRAIN!
OBAMA SAYS YOUR HIRED!

GEORGE THE ARTICLE IS CHAOS!
THE UPPER CRUST???MY GOSH GEORGE,THIS IS WHY WE DONT WANT OBAMA AS PRESIDENT!ITS NONSENSE!

Episcopalians foreshadow USA's future
The Post Modern Liberalism that has crept into and taken over the Episcopalian Church (the same has happened, or is happening, to most protestant denominations) is a foreshadowing of the future of the USA. Just as the Church is reshaping its doctrines in man's image and becoming increasingly irrelevant to those seeking the good news of the Gospel, Word and sacrament, so are "we the people" and our elected officials slowly, bit-by-bit, rewriting our Constitution and remaking a country into one that is increasingly unrecognizable and removed from the vision held by the Founding Fathers.

Episcopal vs Roman Catholic Church
Most conservative Episcopalians, as dismayed as they might be by the left-wing political slide of their church, would have difficulty accepting the Roman Catholic Church for the following reasons:

1. The concept of Papal infallibilty, a complete non-starter

2. Adoration of the Virgin Mary

3. Veneration of saints, statues, relics, etc.

4. Lack of any significant lay input to the management of the Church

5. Celibate priesthood, currently dominated by homosexuals and pedophiles

No sense jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Jen & JMartin
Jen writes: "This article is yet one more proof that The Roman Catholic Church is the one Church Christ intended. Open your eyes."

The RCC (western) nor the Orthodox (eastern) have a claim to being the one Church. Perhaps you should open your eyes and actually look at the pharisaic attitude that has infected both of these. Especially when both seem to forget the Jewish roots of Christendom.

JMartin writes: "But the good news is that we have now weeded out the disgusting sicko 3%, and morale is much better, thank the Lord."

While I hope this actually happens, it has yet to be accomplished in the USA. The RCC is dealing with the same problems as the ECUSA, PCUSA, ELCA, basically all the "mainline" denominations of Christian and Jewish also.


Decline of Episcopal Church
As a lifelong Episcopalian, I am deeply saddened by the decline of the Church. The decline, like my inactive status, is not solely the result of homosexuality in the Church leadership, but because the Church has become politically active with an extremely liberal bias. My response has been to simply drop out of the organized Episcopal Church, while still maintaining my faith. No other church will provide me with what once was the Episcopal Church, but now is sadly gone.

Stu
"By the process of schism outlined above we now have 34,000 recognised versions of christianity (sic) in the world."

That is a common claim made by both atheists and those of a particular branch to support their chosen denomination. It is not easily supported.

One can separate religion (i.e., practices and governance) from faith, which is generally summarized in the Nicene Creed (yeah, I know about the flow).

The practices are the rules of men, and not God. The discussion here was on whether the leadership of a particular denomination has ignored Scripture on core doctrines and whether that has resulted in a loss of membership.

What are you attempting to argue?

Don, what do you do about Priscilla?
.

Andy:
Try RCIA at your local Catholic Church. They'll be glad to straighten out your obvious misuderstandings.

You also forgot to include the 500e06 + in the Orthodox Church in your criticism.

Peter was married. About the others, the
Scriptures are silent.

Don
"The Bible is clear on what is required for a man who is to be a shepherd over the flocks of the churches. And in each case the man must be married and of one wife. One wife not being monogamous, but having to do with divorce. "

So then, Jesus was married, as were all the apostles?

Stu's misguided
Stuart wrote,"Jen
---Perhaps, yall should check out the one Church that doesn't view truth as a democracy. The one Church that upholds the teachings of Christ and doesn't put them up for popular vote. This article is yet one more proof that The Roman Catholic Church is the one Church Christ intended. Open your eyes. ---"

Stuart,
I believe I do recall Christ encouraging us to be distracted away from Him, re-sacrifice Him weekly (because once wasn't sufficient), and to bow down and chant or sing to an image of His mother. Banning church officers from marrying, I wonder if that might cause some problems? Yup that sure is upholding, and not adding to Christ’s teaching

Schism
By the process of schism outlined above we now have 34,000 recognised versions of christianity in the world. Each would claim only they have the truth. Is there any truth in any of them?

Stuart

Jen
---Perhaps, yall should check out the one Church that doesn't view truth as a democracy. The one Church that upholds the teachings of Christ and doesn't put them up for popular vote. This article is yet one more proof that The Roman Catholic Church is the one Church Christ intended. Open your eyes. ---

Was Jesus a misogynistic guiltmonger?

Stuart

The lawyers
The true presiding bishop of the ECUSA is a D.C. lawyer named David Booth Beers. Since the Church owns 30-some blocks surrounding Wall Street in NYC, he has a bottomless bank account with which to sue any church or priest who doesn't tow the 'progressive" line. The head of Episcopal News Service is gay.

Episcopal Legalism
The true "presiding bishop" of the Episcopal Church is a D.C. lawyer named David Booth Beers; he's the puppeteer who tells the Queen Bee what to do and say. He handles all the lawsuits and is called the " chancellor". The Episcopal Church USA owns 30 or so blocks in the downtown Wall Street area- a grant from the original Queen - so Beers has an unlimited bank account with which to roust the plebians. The gays have a file on every U.S. clergyman and their views on gays. It's disgusting.

Episcopalian Legalism
years.

Paleocon
"In theology as in traffic, most creatures in the middle of the road are dead."

Love it! It truly made me laugh out loud.

"Note to uwcharlie: the 0325 post by refatsew is as relevant here as it is on Kevin McCullough's page, where he posted the same item at 0300. Evidently he's so pleased with his own eloquence that he's putting this sample of it everywhere. Look for it on a billboard near you in coming days."

I had it printed up on toilet paper.

Re. The Episcopal Situation:
In both the Gospels and the Book of Acts, devil spirits are sometimes mentioned. Many so-called "modern" Christians poo-poo these notations. Sounds so "superstitious", you know. But these spirits DO haunt the earth. And one of them is Whoredom. If ever there was a classic example of it, it is the mainline denominations, most especially the Episcopalians. Jesus of Nazareth railed against them. As it is written, "Ye teach for doctrine the traditions of men, and make of none effect the word of God". Their end is surely ruin.

God acknowledges 2 categories of people
Believers and unbelievers.
In Revelations He speaks to 7 churches.
Thyatira is commended for love and faith and deeds and perseverence.
Thyatira was warned against tolerating immorality and immoral people in the church.
Leaven leavens the whole ball of dough.
If the Anglicans tolerate men that obviously are not believers revealed by their immorality and desire to turn the bondservants of Christ from what God desires and Truth, they will be affected and become arrogant.

Intolerance against these so-called believers is the only loving way to deal with them. They should be excluded by the Church. Believers should give them the cold shoulder and not call them brothers in Christ. It is their only chance to be saved.

Religions of the World
And that is why Chriatianity stands out. And that is why Christianity has been for years attacked. Christianity is in essence not a religion, but a faith. The heart of Christianity is to make known that man is a sinner and under God's laws cannot gain eternal life. For the wages of sin is death and no man can make but his own payment when the debt is collected by the holder of the debt.
Since this is made impossible, God therefore had to enter into the world that He created, become as a man and make the payments of all debtors who would accept that offer of payment and the only requirement would to believe.
With Islam, men die in the name of god. With Christianity, God had to die for men.
For God can into the world, created by him, but the world knew Him not.
No, being a believer in that does not necessitate religion, but does necessitate faith. No other establishment can bring but not only the death of the death (the first death), but the death of the spirit that resides within him (the second and final death).

Wendy
The religionists' quandary Reply # 65

The answer is very simple. The answers can be found within the contents of the book inspired by God. To be blunt. Not one church adheres to the truth of scripture. There are perhaps a few individuals within a local church that can be entrusted as being true believers. Provided that they have sought the truth in scriptures and have not wholeheartedly accepted all that the ministers or clergy have passed off as being truth, when that truth has been corrupted by the minds of men.

Religions of the World
There are six recognized religions of the world: Islam; Judaism; Buddhism; Animism; Christianity; and Hinduism;

All are guided by their books of teachings from the specific origin of their religion that was writ by the scribes of their religion in relation to their GOD.

The Leaders or Elders or Priests et cetara of the original book of teachings should determine if there is a need to add to or strike anything from the original book.

When a consensus cannot be reached, this causes the splits from the original assemblies.

When members of these religions splinter apart from the original teachings to form another assembly of people should they write a new and different book of teachings? Do they change who becomes their GOD? Who are the new scribes for the new book of teachings for the splintered assembly?

Martin Luther wrote the Book of Lutherans for the assembly of people who left their original teachings to follow him and his GOD.

This does not happen today! The assemblies of people who splinter from their original religion are using the same name of the religion they disagreed with, but choose only the teachings they are comfortable with in the same book of teachings.

Yet, they attempt to please themselves rather than follow the original teachings of their GOD.

Perhaps there is nothing wrong with disagreeing on some of the original teachings that was writ hundreds or thousands of years ago. This is, of course, not the 1st century in the year of our LORD.

“Ich Kann Nicht Anders”, as for me and my family, we will worship the LORD


Who are these odd people?

First, let's discuss George Will. He's dead on about the Episcopal Church but seems to miss that his centrism is ground zero for the philosophical underpinnings (or lack thereof) that are collapsing the church.

Will is a "plantation Republican". He enjoys being in the minority and is uncomfortable with victory so even when Republican's win he tries to undermione the victory so he can return to a minority status. The closest slave era term is a "House Slave" who is happy with slavery because the master (or in this case the New York Times and CNN) let's him live in the house.

This attitude of being liked is the root of the Episcopal Church's problem.

Church's were not founded to be popular but to evangelize the word of God, helping their members live a life worshipping Christ and doing works so that they exemplify their beliefs.

The letters to Will make him seem sane though. Anti-semitism and anti Christian vitriol. How vulgar can you get.

By the way, the half educated Yahoos totally miss the point of the most exemplary man on the subject of living in a Christian Society, John Calvin (how's that for a troll?).


Will: You've spent too much time ...
on ABC.

Please go write for the Daily KOS or the NY Times ...

quit stinkin' up the conservative blogs with your crappy stuff...

LuLu
You have much insight with your message response.
The Bible is clear on what is required for a man who is to be a shepherd over the flocks of the churches. And in each case the man must be married and of one wife. One wife not being monogamous, but having to do with divorce.
However the Catholic Church and any other church that requires celebate unmarried priests is very clearly not adhering to the scriptures they purport to cling to.
I must also add that there are churches that allow women to be ministers and clergy. And this too is in opposition to the word of God. For scripture is very clear that a woman cannot hold any position within the church which would place her in authority over a man.
Since churches do not follow these commands, they follow not other commands and thus make themselves enemies of God rather than friends. For they are yet rebellious for their attitude is that they shall make up their own laws within the church and make for themselves doctrines that are contrary to worship of the true God. Therefore they worship not the God of Heaven, but the god of this world.
They twist the truth to fit their particular doctrines, taking away the truth from those who come before them for wholesome bread, being given instead bread that is moldy and full of worms.
Doctrines such as pre tribulation rapture and an eternal firey hell where the wicked will be cast are such samples of their lack of wisdom in God's word. They take bits and pieces of scripture to fashion for themselves the golden calf. Rejecting other scripture that neither supports their doctrines and teachings. They will do as their true father has done from the beginning of creation and that is to keep as many from gaining eternal life, but coming to the second death.

Wendy Reply #65
Spoken like a highly educated liberal.

So how do you know that the "Progressive Episcopalians" are wrong? And why would you expect your opponents to simply take you at your word? How do you know that it is untrue that maybe you are the one who should adapt to their ideas?

Yes, yes, of course it's all relative. There's only one problem, with that kind of thinking there is no room for truth. Nobody need take anyone's word, if you want truth, read the Bible. The word of God IS truth.

Paul
It is my understanding that the Germans also had correspondence with Margaret Sanger and the contributors to her 'Birth Control Review.'
You can read her Plan for Peace here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/327166/1932-Margaret-Sanger-A-Pla n-for-Peace

Would it not be also plausible to cite the Eugenics movement as an inspiration for the Nazis? (and in truth, as if they needed any inspiration or citation. People who commit mass murder are not stopped because of lack of literary citations).

I can not speak for the anti-semitic views of Luther, but I do not believe any incitement of murder has its roots in the words of Christ.


The religionists' quandary
But these are all items of faith, and since faith is a means of knowledge other than reason, no item of faith is or can be rationally substantiated.

So how do you know that the "Progressive Episcopalians" are wrong? And why would you expect your opponents to simply take you at your word? How do you know that it is untrue that maybe you are the one who should adapt to their ideas?

CSI Fan...
...Thanks for the link on the "Scotch" term.Many,many years ago I got my information from my sainted grandmother,who immigrated from Glasgow,and,to her,it was not acceptable to use the term "Scotch" when referring to a people.But I see that it is a matter of debate and I will follow it.

Re: Luther
I seemed to have unintendedly provoked response from a number of closet antisemites typically hiding behind the anonymity of comment columns such as these. Luther wrote a book "Jews and Their Lies". He was also significantly responsible for the extermination of almost 100,000 Christian peasant rebels in his own time. The are facts....not the innuendos and sleaze exhibited by various cowardly entries in this thread. My intent initially was only to make what is generally known but commonly disregarded, i.e. the truth about Martin Luther.

these posts are NOT anti-semitic!!
EVERY culture has its share of idiosyncrasies that get pointed out from time to time. Many times, they are a result of personal experiences.
No offense is ever intended and if misunderstood, apologies are rendered. Freedom of speech (the first amendment) is necessary to insure that the truth sees the light of day.
JMartin, what are you afraid of?? If any untruths have been spoken pleas enlighten us on this column. We are all here because of an interest in this and related topics. If a reply to a thread is obnoxious flag away!!
It seems that a nerve has been struck.
ARE YOU AFRAID OF THE TRUTH??

Stop the anti-Jewish Posts
Jim's and other anti-semitic comments are making me vomit all over my computer. They are not welcome, and not representative of the vast majority of THers. I have flagged 3 of them, hope others do the same, and hope the Censor removes them.

Yes, lj, we Catholics had a huge clerical sexual abuse problem, and it sickened no one more than us Catholics. But the good news is that we have now weeded out the disgusting sicko 3%, and morale is much better, thank the Lord.

Truth
Does God lie? If so, go on about your "anything goes" lifestyle. But don't expect it to last for eternity. But hell does.

LuLu, you are absolutely right
Celibacy was no excuse for homosexuality in the priesthood. I would like to suggest that the term "sexual abuse" was misused in the Catholic priest "sex scandal". It seems that the mainstream media wanted to give homosexuality a pass by labeling the abhorrent activity as "child abuse" and not out and out homosexuality. It would seem that the priests would involve themselves with preteen and teenage boys. (What better cover for a homosexual).
It is well known in certain Catholic circles that homosexuality was prevalent in the US Catholic seminary system and was condoned by bishops and cardinals as well (who were also homosexual). Many excellent candidates for the priesthood were denied access to the priesthood by being "vetted out" as not being homosexuals. The administrators of certain seminaries actively recruited homosexuals. This was commonly known by certain clergy as the "lavender lobby".

Men Think They Know More Than God
Too many religions are making up their own rules as they go along according to their own human agendas whether it be sexual preferences or turning churches into motivational and positive thinking man made rules or money makers for themselves or opportunity to control people based on their own beliefs or fantatical religions who believe its glorious to kill themselves or others, but whatever the reason for all of these various changes and beliefs, the fact is that there is only One God and He has been out guessed, out thought, out sourced, and most of those who don't look up and ask for guidance from the true source are out of luck!

Mr. Will,
You’ve made yourself no longer relevant for any future discourse and have lost all credibility as a so-called conservative writer.

Your endorsement of your new socialist overseer for the White House will give you a place at Obama’s table only long enough until the ‘one’ has no more need of you, along with Parker, Noonan and others of your “coastie” elitist friends.

When you have served him long enough, he will drag you from his table, and throw you too under his crowded bus, like so many other “useful idiots” that came before you.

Selling out your core principals, (if indeed you had any), is your own fault, not the fault of other conservatives who stand up against an Obama Presidency.

Herr Will, enjoy your hiatus from reality. Eat while you can. Enjoy your masters party now, while your country quickly slides into the darkness of the ‘one’s’ new Marxism.

You have helped Obama obtain his goal, and you will be held responsible for your deeds, by simply being ignored in the future.

Bon Appetit

tj
i wasn't commenting on Catholic Priest celibacy one way or another, my point was that a church that claims to be Christian cannot very well have a non-celibate homosexual as a Priest, minister or bishop.

My point about Catholics was they allowed homosexual Priests because they are supposed to be celibate like heterosexual Priests and the resulting sex scandals are overwhelmingly related to homosexual Priests not adhering to their vows of celibacy.

ECUSA: Ego and church politics has much

to do with why and how the ECUSA is where it is today.

Katharine Jefferts Schori, Presiding Bishop, is the Presiding Bishop because of anger, ego, and church politics.

She was probably the LEAST QUALIFIED of all the candidates, yet she was elected as a "pay back" for unhappy Bishops.

David Virtue has an excellent web site,

http://www.virtueonline.org/

that documents much of the "church politics."

David Virtue and I were members of the same Anglican parish for approximately fifteen years. I knew David well, and I can vouch for him and the accuracy of his web site.

Do you have an answer?

Anne
Location: PA
Reply # 3
Date: Oct 19, 2008 - 1:46 PM EST

Subject: jim: YOU'RE OUT OF LINE, and your posts

have NOTHING to do with the topic...

=========

How many times have you read a reply on TH that did not abide in detail with the article?

Isn’t Martin Luther usually accused of being anti-Jew?

I hoped that the readers of this column might have an answer for my questions.

This is a subject that involves millions of people, and no one wants to discuss. Is it that they are afraid to discuss this problem?

Have you ever discussed this problem, ever?




LuLu, the reason for celibacy...
int he Roman Catholic priesthood had nothing to do with Jesus Christ being single. Before and during the middle ages, married priests were common. At that time, married bishops would will church property to their descendants. The Catholic hierarchy had to put a stop to this; hence, celibacy was required.
In other Catholic rites (other than Roman Catholic) marriage is allowed.
Episcopalian clergy that convert to Catholicism are often married and practice their ministry as Catholic clergy.
Previous post: sorry for the grammatical errors:)

LuLu, the reason for celibacy . . .
in the Roman Catholic priesthood had nothing to do with Jesus Christ being single. Before and during the muddle ages, married priests were common. At that time, married bishops would will church property to their descendants. The upper Catholic had to put a stop to this; celibacy was required.
In other Catholic rites (other than Roman Catholic) marriage is allowed.
Episcopalian clergy that convert to Catholicism are often married and practice their ministry as Catholic clergy.

THE TRADITIONAL EPISCOPALIANS ARE BAILIN
The Episcopal Church seems to have a death wish. Many good members have left my church and have gone with the Catholic Church or other traditional churches--including our Bishop. To good Christians the Bible gives the rules, and God expects us to obey them and to follow Jesus's examples and teachings.

A lot of Kumbayas and theological degrees will not paper over the national church's failure to follow God's rules--the church is substituting liberal human views for his rules.

Like Ronald Reagan said, "I didn't leave the Democratic Party--the party left me." Ditto for the Episcopal Church. I will leave when the first gay blessing or priest arrives at my parish. Like the Bible says, "I am the Lord--I changeth not!" Or like Joshua said, "As for me and my family--I will follow the Lord."

Rocketman

jim: YOU'RE OUT OF LINE, and your posts

have NOTHING to do with the topic...

Friendly suggestion: STOP IT right now!!!

Ambrose Bierce: Christianity
Christian, n.

One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

From Bierce's "Devil's Dictionary."

No further comment required.

Paul
It was the Lutheran German Christians who fought against Hitler's ideas.

The concentration camps did not hold only Jews. They were filled with Lutheran Christians who worked against the Nazis.

You have based your argument that Luther's writings were used by the Nazis as justification on several quotes by Lutherans. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Nazis tried everything in their power to justify their actions. The prevailing denomination in Germany was Lutheran. Therefore, they tried to show that Luther would have approved.

If you would read Luther's writings, you would see that Luther was not an anti-Semite.

Anyone can pull selected quotes out of anyone's writings to prove any point.

Read the whole body of work.

uwcharlie
If you are interested in staying Lutheran, but cannot abide the ELCA's changes, try Missouri or Wisconsin. They still hold the Biblical beliefs.

I am Episcopalian for years:
When we first came to the United States in 1955 and joined the church here it was very hard.
We didn't and still do not have a lot of money and they treated us like that we were second hand citizens. Even if my Mother was a secretary for the same church for thirty years we still looked at as though we just weren't good enough.
When my mother retired at the are of eighty-one and mind you she had to drive on the expressway to work. I had to beg them to give her a plack for all the work that she did keeping the church a float finally after me telling them that I will tell all their dirty secrets they gave it to her but she never knew about all that but how sad that was after all the work that she did for the church. So am I surprised that have to close up shop not really but my only concern is that my Mother's ashes are in the church where she worked and that will affect that situation badly.
MAY GOD BLESS ONE AND ALL OF US NOW AND FOREVER AS I AM SURE HE WILL!!!

Small subject 2 weeks before an election
Mr. Will has marching orders from The One to help run out the clock.

I can't wait for next week's column on the meaning of HD television, with enlightening allusions to Lucy and Ricky being replaced with Will and Grace.

back to ya, chuck
Chuck, apparently you feel my only issue with the church was ordination of gays...no...my issue is liberalism taking over my church. I go to church to worship God and not to hear sermons about global warming, recycling and immigration. I'm sorry, I want the litergy and not a public policy lecture.

re: Luther...attn ayecontact
A quote from Martin Sasse, Lutheran Bishop of Thuringia..."On 11/10/1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany". This was the infamous Kristallnacht. Sasse further indicated his joy in a forward to a collection of MartinLuther's anti-Jewish writings which the bishop was publishing in an attempt to further persuade the German people to support the about to commence Holocaust. Bishop Sasse called Luther the greatest anti-semite of all and praised him for warning his people against the Jews.

Market forces are at work
And the Episcopal Church will close up shop.

What I've never
understood is how churches can call themselves Christian abd be in open defiance to the Christian God of the Bible. You cannot be a Christian church and have a non-celibate homosexual priest, bishop, or minister. Much like you could not have an openly adulterous priest, bishop, or minister. Non-celibate (which is required by all priests in the Catholic church) priests have caused great damage to the Catholic church with the sex scandals. If you really look into it the majority of the sex with minors cases are not pedophilia rather they are homosexual priests molesting post-pubescent young men. The Epischopal church is not a religious organization it is a club that is dabbling in social engineering. What is their purpose if not to save souls and bring people to Christ. Their leadership is actively trying to lead their members into sin rather than salvation.

Politically Correct Church?

Who are they competing with... MTV ?

Does Will even attend services?
I thought he had joined the Church of Obama, the Messiah. Will should retire.

George Will has turned into
snide latte loving liberal who appears to be supporting B. Hussein Obama. George can join the United Church of Christ and listen to the Reverend Wright along with his new friend, B. Hussein Obama. Who care what Will thinks? He is a phony and a creep.

Helloooo!

Wow! Yall really don't see it, do you? Chuck was on the right track . . .


Chuck: May I suggest considering that if your church is wrestling with an issue that is so extremely anti-Biblical as the ordination of homosexuals, that something went wrong a lot longer ago than this and that perhaps you should question some of your theological assumptions?

Perhaps, yall should check out the one Church that doesn't view truth as a democracy. The one Church that upholds the teachings of Christ and doesn't put them up for popular vote.

This article is yet one more proof that The Roman Catholic Church is the one Church Christ intended. Open your eyes.


Phil P./ Kentucky #15 makes an excellent

Biblical point....

"... traditions of men do not take precedence over the authority of God's word."

John Adams said: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Walking away
from the Church of England is nothing new -- the Pilgrims did it in 1620.

Presbyterian Church USA
PCUSA means Presbyterian Church USA, not Politically Correct USA. But ya wouldn't know it.

Back before it was outlawed, PCUSA made partial birth abortion one of its trendsetters, payiing for the procedure from its pension fund. Now no one knows how many infants had their brains pithed like a frog in a college science lab, but the fact that they were endorsing the procedure says more about PCUSA than anything.
Perhaps even PETA would not approve.

These folks are just playing church. Maybe they can go out on Halloween disguised as real Christians, and resume being whatever they are the next day.

Love and heresy
Heresey is alive and well in The Episcopal Church. Heresy - because they emphasize one aspect of Christianity to the exclusion of others. They focus on love, but not transformation. They equate behavior (sex outside of marriage) with being Black or a woman. Since they endorse what the culture affirms, next up are threesomes (why not?) and sex with children, both of which are already being pumped in the media. When was the last time someone was "saved" or (God forbid!) "born again" in an Episcopal church?

Scotch is an alcoholic drink...
It is also a term citizens in Scotland sometime use to describe themselves....

Check it out for yourself:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/APG/2005-07/1 121707334

Truer Words Never Spoken
George Will, you do not know how correct you are. I stopped attending Episcopalian services in Riverside, California no longer able to tolerate the lunacy of the clergy and the misrepresentation of scripture. There appears to be no hope in reforming the church as it currently exists. Separation appears the only solution.

Lutherans in WWII
Paul of Georgia needs to get some facts straight. "Lutheran hierarchy" in Hitler's Germany were mostly dead, in prison, or in hiding. The "Church" of WWII Germany was the "German Christian Church," which was not Christian, but a creation of the Nazi regime. Did they quote Luther? Yes, but they quoted the Bible, too -- both, largely out-of-context. Indeed, the later-Luther did come to some disgusting anti-antisemitic views, but those where out-of-context with the perspective that he championed most of his life.

George, you confuse with your writing
George Will what has happened to you? Recently you write as if you have lost your moral and intellectual compass and your sense of real history.
Martin Luther did not shatter Christendom, rather he threw off an oppressive yoke of abusive Catholic authority.
The Episcopal Church merely follows the pattern of all Christendom. It declines in the prosperity of England, Europe and North America, thrives in adversity as in Africa and other similar regions. Scrambling for members and money it has departed from the Bible for popular appeal and has failed in doing so.
Toward the end of your article here you got finally to the truths of the matter of not only the Episcopal Church but also most Christian churches including the Catholic.
Meanwhile Islam grows exponentially. Judeo-Christianity is in great trouble for departing from the Bible and its teachings.

You got it right WTFO? Kentuck
Churches that belong to men are social clubs and a nice place for liberals to gather where there is tolerance and love of physical pleasure.

The Lords church is where eternal life is found and His church is the place to gather to praise Him and study His word. He says that all the rest are going to hell.

Hell is not a nice place to retire. Weather is not comfortable.



Boycott Will
Will has already sold out to MSM and gone into the tank for "first rate temperament" Obama, ignoring the fact that he is an emerging COMMUNIST seeking to destroy the Constitution. So in the heat of of all this he writes a column about the Episcopal Church. There is no fool like an old fool.

WAKE UP, AMERICA, OR DIE IN YOUR SLEEP!!

You Just Wait.....
Farrakhan Says 'New Beginning' For Nation of Islam... is a Drudge article that foretells of the coming of the people who believe that women belong under a black hood, covered so that no one can even see an eye. That is where Episcopals are heading along with the rest of us, or haven't you learned that after a year of the history of the new Messiah. Will stop writing about stuff that may interest a few and do your best to describe the US after 10 to 15 years of rule by the Obama and fellow conspirator Democrats. After about 20 years the US will take a big step to reducing carbon in the atmosphere - women will be forced to stop driving vehicles in the New World of Islam.

Will's & others' glorification of Luther
Notwithstanding Luther's role in the Reformation, his most significant role in history, continually swept under the rug by most christians, was his vicious antisemitism culminating ultimately in the Holocaust. His virulent writings were cited by Hitler and the Lutheran hierarchy to give religious justification to the slaughter, notwithstanding isolated examples of great sacrifice by the few dissenters.

Scotch is an alcoholic drink...
..."Scot" is the name of the people who reside in Scotland.

Episcopalian Blather
I was born and raised a Scotch-Irish Presbyterian but I 'converted' to Episcopalianism when I got married because my wife was raised in that church. I have watched the dissension in their ranks first hand for 10-15 years now as my in-laws' church in Pawleys Island, SC led the charge away from the mainline body. I just quit the whole thing (organized religion) a few years ago because both the Episcopals and the Presbyterians have become mushbrains who believe nothing at all and the Evangelical types appear to hate science. I just trust what I can see now.

Power of the Purse
Episcopal Heirarchy is actually far more authoritarian than the Vatican. They also hold the Church Pension Fund. Clergy in ECUSA can't make waves for monetary reasons. These priests and priestesses live compromised lives and they know it. Making bishop is purely politics and on on Judgement Day they'll per Ricky Ricardo, have "lots of splaning to do." Their first priestess is now a Catholic.

lexkyphil
The end of a man-made institution like the Episcopalian church is not difficult to understand. In Matthew 15:12-14 we read the following about these kinds of unscriptural goings-on. "Then His disciples came and said to Him "do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying? But He answered and said, every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

As Christ has said, the traditions of men do not take precedence over the authority of God's word. Just trying to live as did the 1st century Christians, in the simplicity of sola scriptura is difficult enough. It is much harder to add the distortions of scripture that the denominations have polluted the world with for so many centuries. These controversies could be done away with if people took Jesus at His word in John 17, praying for the unity of believers. Give it a try and see if that doesnt work better.

in Him, Phil P. in Kentucky

Upper Crust of Progressive Episcopalians
The more the Episcopalians turn from Scripture to the trendy views of the day, the more they become a club, not a church. There was a time when Anglicans fought and died for their faith; apparently there is nothing left for them to fight for. If anything goes, then everything worthwhile is gone. I applaud those willing to stand up for the Bible and its doctrines, even if it means leaving the church structure. In reality, they are not leaving the church; it has left them. Read Hawthorne's "The Celestial Railroad."

_Via media_
In theology as in traffic, most creatures in the middle of the road are dead.

Note to uwcharlie: the 0325 post by refatsew is as relevant here as it is on Kevin McCullough's page, where he posted the same item at 0300. Evidently he's so pleased with his own eloquence that he's putting this sample of it everywhere. Look for it on a billboard near you in coming days.

prpl
May I suggest considering that if your church is wrestling with an issue that is so extremely anti-Biblical as the ordination of homosexuals, that something went wrong a lot longer ago than this and that perhaps you should question some of your theological assumptions?

Just a suggestion.

unify America, vote Obama
I just saw this -- perhaps more disturbing than any other Obama story I have read:

Obama's sponor to Harvard Law School, Khalid al Mansour, says,"The white people don't feel bad. Whatever you do to him, they deserve it. God wants you to do it. And that's when you cut off their nose, cut off their ears, take flash out of their bodies. Don't worry. God...wants you to do it."

Has David Duke ever said something so vile? I am not sure that even Hitler has a quote like this. Yeah, it was just some kind of "mistake" that Obama went to Wright's church.

I guess the rationale is that people with white skin are all guilty -- and people with black skin are all innocent. Just because Obama has white slaveholding ancestors and I do not makes no difference -- I am guilty as are all of my relatives. Obama is not. Incredible.

Mark CA. And EpiscoJews.
First, Mark CA, this is George Will's job -- he gets paid very well for writing. Do you? And, do you think of the writers on this Website as your hang-around-bar-buddies, or club-friends? George Will is seen as the "dean" of his profession. Are you seen as one of those? Do you have any portfolio? Are you good at your job?

You might ponder some of this, before allowing disappoinment into your life, that others are not doing enough to please you all the time.

And Mr. Will, from your column today, I get the idea the Episcopalians are now similar to the Jews -- dissension all the time. So, maybe the Episcopalians last only another four or six thousand years, or whatever it is.

Refatsew
What has your post to do with George Will's column? If you want to comment in the affirmative about Barrack Obama, go to a liberal site and post to your heart's content.

Regarding Will's column, I am glad to see a major commentator take on the Episcopal Church. My own church, the Lutheran Church in America, has taken the Episcopal way and is now encouraging gays and it won't be long before they have gay pastors and it will only be a short time before it becomes the Episcopal church Light. My Dad was until his death an LCA Lutheran pastor. He would turn over in his grave if he saw what was happening in his church. What is saddest of all is many parishioners in both the Episcopal and Lutheran (and other major church bodies) are just accepting this catering to gays, with the result being that the liberals win again. Strong believers in all major religions will never truly accept gays as pastors and I see the day when these churches will become shadows of their former selves. A sad day for religion in the U.S.

how will Obama unite America?
A comment mentions how Obama will unite America when elected. Just how will that happen? Obama's closest associate over the last 20 years was Jeremiah Wright -- probably the least unifying person possible. Are we to believe that Obama had no idea what Wright's views are? Wright has always been pretty open about his viewpoints -- from God da*n America, to the U.S. govt creating AIDS to "kill people of color", to repeatedly using the "n" word in church -- and describing the sexual behavior of Bill Clinton.

Obama was such a unifier that when this story came out that he opening insulted his "white grandmother" who apparently is a "typical white person."

Was Jesus a latitudinarian?
He mentioned Hell quite a lot, and said that He came to divide. It seems to me that the Episcopalians are going through a process of discernment, and that secession is probably a good idea at this point. Personally I am Catholic, so I don't have a vested interest in the topic.

Fehrenbach
T R Fehrenabach has also commented on this.
Going into the 1960s Episcopalians were disproportionately influential. For example, 20% of Army officers were of that church.

Today, the same type of people still serve, but they belong to other denominations. I've little doubt that Theodore Roosevelt were he alive today would be an apostate Episcopalian.

Well, as Fehrenbach has predicted, it will probably be Black African missionaries that re-Christianize England. I can see the cartoons now. The black minister in the cooking pot while the white cannibals dance around him.

Vetting time
It's time to separate the sheep from the goats. I hate to see it happen, but those who won't see right done and recant their folly must be isolated and shunned by the rest of us. The Lord is jealous of his church, and he will see her made whole again.

Cradle Episcopalian
As a cradle Episcopalian, I have recently
thought seriously about leaving the church. I have watched the church that has meant so much to me be taken over by liberals bent on pushing their secular social agenda. My priest is hanging onto the "old school" approach which is why I haven't left yet but I am worried the day will come when that is no longer the case. When political correctness takes over in my parish, I'm outta there.

Episcopal decline
In an age when most believers seek certainty and adherence to the Gospel, the Episcopal Church in the United States has compromised its integrity and retreated into accommodation with the forces of secularism. The membership is voting with its feet and walking in another direction. Thankfully, there are churches in Africa which are staying the course and,as one commentator has observed, paying the American churches back for the sacrifices of missionaries who helped bring them into the fold in the first place.

The same cancer affects, to varying degrees, the other mainline churches, which attempt to substitute campaigns for "social justice" and environmentalism for the Gospel. My wife and I recently left the United Church of Christ because of its decidedly liberal political orientation, with frequent sermons on global warming (which our minister could not support when confronted), and tacit endorsement of the homosexual lifestyle (now called "open and affirming"). The national church is caught up in all manner of far-left political causes, as its web site will quickly attest.
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