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Tuesday, May 08, 2007
Fred Thompson :: Townhall.com Columnist
To the Shores of Tripoli
by Fred Thompson
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From the Halls of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli.
We fight our country's battles in the air, on land and sea.
First to fight for right and freedom, and to keep our honor clean;
We are proud to claim the title of United States Marine.

That’s from the Marine Corp Hymn, of course, and you can thank me for not singing it. When I was a boy, a lot of America kids knew that verse -- and probably a few more. I hope they still do, but I get the impression that might not be the case.

That's one reason I'd like to spend some time talking about the heritage this song represents. Another reason is that the lyrics hold a history lesson critical to America’s future. I realize a lot of you already know this material, but indulge me for the sake of those who might not.

The very first line written for the Marine Corps Hymn, about the shores of Tripoli, refers to America's first foreign war. After the Revolution, U.S. ships were sailing the world in search of trade without British protection. With no real navy to protect our merchants and travelers, American vessels and citizens were being targeted for looting, enslavement and ransom. The enemy was the so-called Barbary pirates -- agents of the North African provinces of the Ottoman Caliphate.

Ransom and protection money were demanded and paid. Stories of terrible treatment of American men and women in the dungeons of North Africa were well known. Behind it all, the country was having a pro- and anti-war debate.

On the one hand were those who took the "no blood for trade" approach. They had legitimate concerns about the cost and political impact of maintaining a standing military. They favored negotiations and payments rather than fighting. For a long time, their side was winning the argument. In 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams even went to London to negotiate directly with the envoy from Tripoli.

Several historians and writers have reminded us recently of the ambassador’s nearly forgotten answer. Fortunately, Jefferson prepared a written report for the government and left other records of the incident. Here’s a description from The Atlantic Monthly in 1872:

“Disguising their feelings as best they could, they ‘took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury.’ The ambassador replied that it was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave.” He claimed every one of their guys who was “slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise."

This answer may have helped sway the debate to the side of those who favored military response over further attempts at diplomacy. Some believe it had a personal impact on Jefferson himself, though higher and higher ransoms probably helped too. Congress finally acted, creating the US Navy in 1794. This included approval for the construction and manning of six frigate warships, including the USS Constitution -- which is afloat and commissioned to this day.

Still, though, congress refused to act directly against the Barbary pirates for years. Eventually, between 10 and 20 percent of U.S. revenues would be paid annually without ever buying actual safety for Americans. In the end, Thomas Jefferson acted on his own, sending forces into harm’s way. America entered into its first and protracted foreign war. From beginning to end, in fact, the conflict lasted approximately 14 years. I couldn’t tell you, by the way, if the Barbary wars were ever described as a “quagmire” or "lost."

I won’t describe here the taking of Tripoli by courageous American soldiers. And I sure don’t have time to talk about America's eventual victory over the forces of that era's religiously justified terrorism. I would though encourage you to read about it for yourself. It's a great story and it holds an important lesson about the nature of the world.

Sometimes folks around the world mock Americans for not having more of a sense of history. They might be right, but I think it is often for a good reason. Americans are a people who look to the future instead of the past. We hope and believe that things can and will get better. We are more than willing to forgive our old enemies and move forward together in peace. So we tend to forget the bad things we left behind.

Unfortunately, some of our enemies feel differently. They neither forgive nor forget. Listening to the messages of al Qaida's leaders, you understand that they see their old defeats in very personal and contemporary terms. They are in a “long war” against us, even if we don’t know it. And they’re committed to winning it.

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About The Author

Fred Thompson has been a lawyer, actor and United States Senator. He writes exclusive analysis and commentary for Townhall Magazine.

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History Lesson
In addition to what was downloaded into your Brain Housing Group while you were in grammar school, I suggest reading up on military history alongside your favorite Ann Coulter and Pat Buchanan books.

I'm working on "Don't Tread on Me: A 400-Year History of America at War, from Indian Fighting to Terrorist Hunting" by H.W. Crocker III.

It's a couple years old and available on Amazon for cheap. I'm nearly done, and it's an easy read as it's interesting enough to keep you from putting it down.

RUN FOR PRESIDENT!!!!
Why has this man not announced he is running? He speaks the truth. Get in the race, Fred. Make sure our country remains strong in this long war.

JewConservative
If Israel wants to attack Iran, they are free to do so. I, as an American, want none of it.

RE:LIBERTY
You, Liberty, may not want any part of it but don't think for a minute that Iran doesn't want to kill you and your family your children your parents and anyone else who is not a believer in Allah. When the time comes for Israel to act in their own best interest they will and the world will be better for it. Even if you are too stupid to realize it.

MARINE HYMN
The U.S. Navy ships and the Marines were led into the harbor by Sicilian sailors. And,one of our first allies, the Sicilian sailors, were the first to lead the charge against the Barbary "pirates".

JIMMY CARTER!
Thanks for the plug my brother.

Check my blog today. This is RIGHT UP YOUR ALLEY J.C.! haha. I'm lining up two liberal nutjobs who should be in a straight-jacket (with CHE on the front so they feel good) NOT running around loose.

Liberty
As a historian, I know what has happened to EVERY nation, empire, race, that has messed with the Jews and that is, they've either fallen...hard or are a Second World bordering a Third World nation. Indeed, from the Persians, to the Romans, the Arabs, the Germans, the French, to the Brits, all have suffered for messing with the Jews. It don't take a hit on the head with a ten pound maul to see that SOMETHING is at work here. I'd stand with Israel before I'd stand with anyone else.

"Dangerous" Dave
GREAT BOOK!

I'm currently reading "The Conservative Mind," from Burke and Eliot to the Present.

http://www.conservativebookclub.com

EDUCATE IN ORDER TO ANNIHILATE!

History Lost
Mr. Thompson's history lesson is not acceptable in many public schools. We can't appear to be blaming the religion of peace for anything. We might hurt their feelings. Jefferson was the agressor. Ask any liberal.

Liberty
Its that line of thinking that brought us 9/11. We think we can sit back and ignore what's going on around the world and all will be well? That's not reality. Look around and see that the enemy doesn't sleep in their quest to slowly conquer the West and the rest of the world. Take notice; they are ever increasing in their conquest of the African contintent, as each new country falls. Durning the past few yrs, we've seen how they are making their presence known in Europe and how our "allies" are left wondering what to do to make peace with them. Will we wait til they are here, blowing up our towns, malls, restaurants before we wake up? I hope not. Iran is not poor little peaceful country that just wants to be left alone. They willingly use their terror groups to do their evil acts. The head in the sand approach will only get you killed.

Thanks Fred!
I've been saying for years (before 9/11) that the radical muslims have at least a 1,000yr plan and we stupid Americans can only see 3 months ahead to the next quarterly report. If we don't get our collective butts together soon, they won't have to wait 1,000 years. It is beyond time to call on all Americans to sacrifice something in the war effort. We have become a bunch of spoiled brats for the most part and the spineless liberals are the worst of the lot. We need to take stock of our "journalists" to determine which side they are on and jail the traitors!

Freedom is not free and it comes with responsibility, something the libdolts just don't understand.

We paid 20% of our budget to terrorist
I totally agree,we are at war with radical Muslim terrorists. One point Fred forgot to mention is the amount of money we paid the terrorists.

By 1800 the annual tribute and ransom payments first agreed in the mid 1780s amounted to about $1 million–20% of the federal budget. (For fiscal year 2007, 20% of the US revenues would equal $560 billion.)

One might remember many Muslim leaders had backed Hitler’s Third Reich.

The WORLD is at war with the young radical Muslim terrorists from the Wahhabism sect of the ultraconservative forms of Islam. It makes little difference what we or others in the world believe unless we do as they do, renounce your God, and believe as they do or you are DEAD.

I just wonder where the Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Chamber of Commerce, etc will be when this great nation starts suffering body bombs in our local Wal-Mart or how about having our elementary schools taken over by radical Muslims like what happened in the Beslan, Russia, school hostage crisis (also referred to as the Beslan school siege or Beslan Massacre), September 1, 2004. Three-hundred forty-four civilians (344) were killed, 186 of them children, and hundreds more were wounded. What type of drill just occurred in Washington, DC? I believe it had to do with terrorism and IED.

Terrorists are already here and will become citizens when the comprehensive immigration bill is passed and this goes along with President Bush’s North American Union he is forming with Canada, United States, and Mexico. I would suggest the reading of, Terror at Beslan: A Russian Tragedy with Lessons for American Schools by John Giduck.

Read more about the radical Muslim and not the moderate Muslims who are quite different. By the way, they do not like them either. Look up the country of Chechnya and read about how they live and teach their children. The delight in cutting off the heads of their enemies and their kids love it.

The radical Muslim terrorists from the Wahhabism sect of the ultraconservative forms of Islam. It is a psychological fact that the greatest predictor of future behavior is past performance and you really need to read the Terror at Beslan: A Russian Tragedy with Lessons for American Schools by John Giduck.


A little known phenomena
When a person becomes a Marine, an essential part of either Boot Camp or The Basic School (Officer's version) is the history of the Corps.

The message is: This is what you must live up to...Don't disgrace the Corps by being weak or not supporting your Unit.

The Marine Corps also uses this for a recruiting challenge: Can you live up to the heroes of the Corps? Are you good enough to be a MARINE?

SSGTRET
No, I don't see it. I do realize there are terrorists all around the world who want to kill us. However, you and I disagree on what is the best way to provide national security. I don't happen to think attacking and overthrowing every dang country in the Middle East is the best way to do that.

How about we start with securing OUR OWN ports and borders?

Sargeant, I have the highest regard for the Marines and the rest of our military. I thank God they exist and I do not want them sent to fight and die for missions that have nothing whatsoever to do with defending our country. I am sick and tired of them being used to carry out UN sanctions, or to further other agendas entirely.

afsarge
I did not say that Iran was a "poor little peaceful country....". What I SAID was that they had not attacked us, nor pose any imminent threat of doing so. By the way, were ANY of the supposed hijackers from Iran? I recall a lot from Saudi Arabia, but I don't recall them being from Iran.

Furthermore, if you think they are likely to come over here and blow up malls, etc., PERHAPS YOU MIGHT PUT SOME OF YOUR ENERGY BEHIND GETTING THIS ADMINISTRATION TO SECURE OUR PORTS AND BORDERS!!

You know what.... Russia was FAR more likely to blow us to kingdom come. How did Reagan handle that, eh????????????????

I do realize that some of you believe the best way to provide national defense is to overthrow the entire Middle East, with the possible exception of Saudi, because the Saudi Royals are good buds with the Bush family. Who cares that the majority of the hijackers came from Saudi, right? I don't recall hearing that this administration was working with the Saudis to uncover the terrorist network in their country from which the hijackers came... DO YOU????? hhhmmm....

I don't happen to agree that what we are doing is the best approach. Our military is in shambles from these last 5 years. We need to build it back up badly. We should secure our ports and borders. We should stop believing we are ordained to decide for other countries what type of government they should have and who their president should be. We should stop all foreign aid. As doing so tends to demonstrate we are taking sides, not to mention, depletes our Treasury and finally, is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Then, we should have REAL free trade with other countries.

IF and only if, a country attacks us, or poses an imminent threat, do we attack them. And if we do, we go in there with everything we have to WIN and win quickly.

Our military should not be used to carry out UN sanctions or to police the world. It should be used to DEFEND US.

GunnyG
It seems to me that Israel is the one being threatening in this case, Gunny. I support them, but they need to stop it with the saber rattling.

Rich
"Freedom is not free and it comes with responsibility"

Yes it does and that includes US standing up and controlling our own government. My God man, do you not see that they are defecating all over our Constitution? Do you not care?

Isreal attack Iran?
Liberty,
How in He** did you manage to segue from a small history lesson about the scourge of islam to wanting no part of Isreal attacking Iran? Just where did your thinking jump the rails?
Taproot

Oh yeah
Presley O'Bannon, Smedley Butler, Dan Daly, Lewis B. Puller, Archibald Henderson.... all names drilled into the heads of our Devil Dog recruits.... OOOOH RAH!

Liberty...
...Alas, I fear you are not taking the time to look at the "Big Picture". I, for one, happen to believe President Bush when he says that the war in Iraq is a (the) major front on the total war against terrorists. Iran (and all other Wahhabi groups from any country having them) is/are sending their "fighters" to Iraq to engage and kill as many American Military personnel as possible. If they win there (Wahhabi' in Iraq) we (the populace in the U.S.) WILL BE IMMINENTLY subject to attacks by these crazies who think their religion calls for the subjugation (or beheading) of ALL infidels (non-believers). Are you armed and ready for that Liberty or will you just depend on those of us that are like the liberals do now?
Where is it better to fight the Muslims -- Iraq or here? I use the inclusive "Muslim" because in my (humble) opinion when push turns to shove (and it will) most of the Muslims will, at best not oppose the super radical and at worst (quite likely) will join their religious brothers.
BTW Liberty, I agree that some, possibly many, of the enemy is already here. So, yes, the borders and immigration problems must be fixed and they must be fixed in a manner different than President Bush proposes. They (the illegal) all need to be deported over the course of a few years! But that is really a subject for another time.
Finally, I completely disagree that the military is in a shambles. It is several orders of magnitude improved over the military of the Clinton times and morale is still very high because these men (and women) are professional, well trained and they believe in their missions. (I can only really speak to the Marine Corps since my youngest son is a recruiter for them and I get some feedback and because I was a Marine (Vietnam era) and know how they think).
Semper Fi,
TBC

Liberty
Iran may not have attacked us directly, but they are supplying the terror groups that do. It is no small fact that they are a state sponser of terrorism, and the puppet master behind the Hezbollah that started the recent conflict between Israel and Lebanon. To sit idly by and wait til they attack us is the worng approach. I never said we should be taking out all the Mid-east countries, but we definitely should be out in front taking out the terrorists where they live and hide, including Iran. If we sit back and wait for Iran to develop nuclear weapons, then hand them out to their terrorist buds, would that get your attention? I don't want to wait til that day. Should we have waited til 9/11 before realizing the terrorists mean business and be taken seriously? That;s why we study history, so we can learn from it and make better decisions in the future.
And just so you know, I firmly believe we should enforce the borders and secure the ports. I believe the inaction by congress and our leaders on the illegal immigration issue is why the democrats won control last year. I also believe the missile defense system is a good idea. I also don't want America to end up like Israel, in that they are always wondering if and when the next suicide bomber strike next.

Once A Marine?
Always a Marine?

Wasn't Surrender Monkey Murtha a Marine? Now he is disgracing them and getting them killed by providing aid and comfort to our enemies.

He may have been a hero once. Now he is a pale semblance of the man he once was.

Black Cherokee
BC, thanks for your and your son's service to this great nation. - Primus54

Run Fred, Run
History repeats itself, and every time it does, the cost of the history lesson goes up.

Radical Islam is a world wide movement who's ultimate goal is world domination. There are an estimated 1.6 to 1.8 billion Muslims spread over the world.

Just as nobody did anything when Nazism, and Facism were on the rise in the 1930's, nobody will really do anything about these guys until they detonate some nukes in one of our cities. Even then, our democrats will want to negotiate with them.

In the End the will be Only One
Simple Muslim law (non-negotiable)
All infidels (non-Muslims) must be killed.
When they come HERE for you & your family...will you have the guts & be ready to kill them first?
Or will you plead with them to kill you first, so you won't have to watch them kill your family.
Impossible scenario...maybe, maybe not!

Islams Global MASTER PLAN
The final stage in the Islamic Master Plan for their Global Theocracy has already begun and could be completed within the next few years. I predict no more terrorist attacks against the US on the scale of 9/11, as there’s no longer a need. The plan for our downfall is based on economic melt down; not direct physical attack. I'm a retired Naval Officer, formerly involver with Strategic Planning. I've discussed the following scenario with former Pentagon Staff Officers, now retired. All concur that the following is likely.

Phase 1: The war in Iraq, now an out of control Civil war, may result in a Fundamentalist takeover, regardless of whether we withdraw now or "stay the course". We will not reconcile differences between Shiites and Sunnis that have existed for hundreds of years, and only aggravated by our presence. Fundamentalists in Iraq are now receiving arms from Syria and Iran, and financial support from Saudis citizens who hate both the U.S. and their own government for collaborating with us. Iraq won’t be stabilized in the near future, if ever. We may be forced to withdraw soon after the next election, or, as is already happening; we’ll tire of the drain in economic and human resources. Ultimately, a Fundamentalists regime would likely assume control.

Phase 2: A Fundamentalist takeover of Iraq would happen within weeks of our withdrawal, as there will be little or no resistance from US trained Iraqi troops. Once this happens, the North East border of Saudi Arabia, once protected by US occupation, will open. Massive amounts of arms will flood that country, into the hands of the majority of citizens who hate the Saudi Royal family for collaborating with the equally hated US. A coop is inevitable and would occur within months after the takeover of Iraq. Once this happens, all neighboring states, such as Kuwait, the UAE, Oman, & Qatar, will be "invited" to join the new Fundamentalist Coalition. This Coalition will then control 70 to 80 % of the worlds oil supply. And it's an economic fact that The major supplier can control price and distribution.

Phase 3: The New Islamic OPEC will then "invite" other oil producing nations to join. Venezuela and Muslim dominated Indonesia, Malaysia and Libya will show little or no resistance. (see Phase 2). Within 2 years after the fall of Iraq, the New OPEC will control over 90 % of the worlds oil supply.

Phase 4: The New OPEC will then state the terms of sale to the oil dependent world, which will include a prohibition of resale to the US and nations "uncooperative" with Islamic agendas.

Phase 5: US oil reserves are 90 to 120 days. We have no adequate fall back energy resources, (thanks largely to environmentalists), nor can any be implemented within the above timetable. From there we plunge into the economic abyss.

The above scenario could take place within the next 3 years in the event of a fundamentalist regime in Iraq. And recent events cause me to be doubt Iraq can be “stabilized” regardless of our “exit plan”. So is there a Plan "B" to avert this scenario? Yes. It’s called WW3: A Global war of Islamic cleansing. Any takers?

Liberty
I see other have taken you to task for your simplistic, one-track argument. Of course I care that the Constitution has been trampled, but that train left the station over 50 years ago. The current priority for now and the foreseeable future (more than 3 months) is facing the radical Islamofacist terrorists that will kill everyone that does not convert to their radical form of Islam. Don't you care??

Rich
What train are you saying has left the station, Rich? Are you implying that we should just ignore the Constitution altogether?

As far as the terrorists are concerned... yes, I care. And I know they exist. We however seem to disagree on the best way to ensure our national security.

afsarge
If we had enforced the laws that existed at the time, the 9-11 hijackers would not have even been in our country, much less blown up any buildings.

I am no lover of Ahmadinejad or any of the crazies that live there. Not all of the people who live there are crazies though and our beating of the war drums is just helping out the crazies by getting more converts for their cause. What I am seeing in the media and from this administration is much the same buildup that we saw and heard to attempt to make the case for invading Iraq. We are now seeing them try to do the same thing with Iran. You know, I read a few places that Iran had supplied bombs to Iraq to use on our men and that more than irritated me. But, then a few days later I saw that there was actually no proof of that whatsoever.

Sarge, are you sure that the vast majority of the stuff we're hearing is not just propaganda to get us to buy into the need to invade yet another sovereign nation? We've done this before, I'm sure you know.

From what I have read, even IF Iran wanted to create a bomb, and I have seen no evidence that they are doing that, it would take then YEARS. Why are they not allowed to have nuclear energy like everyone else? Hell, that whacko in North Korea apparently has nukes and we're not threatening to bomb the heck out of him. Why not? Red China HAS a number of WMDs, but we don't threaten to invade them. No, instead we send them our manufacturing base and allow them to have an ENORMOUS control over our own fiscal health. They currently own so much of our debt, that if they choose to dump it, our dollar would completely crash. Talk about someone who has actually threatened us with their nukes... it has been Red China. Why don't we care about THEM, Sarge?

Then there's our good 'ol buddies (NOT) in Russia. We have an ex-KGB officer running the country, who has been doing his best to reinstate all the commie symbology he possible can, while now referring to the U.S. as 'the enemy'.

You see, Sarge, I am much more concerned about other countries other than those in the Middle East. Yes, I want to get the terrorists, but I don't think that calls for overthrowing anymore sovereign nations. I think what we are doing now is pure craziness. We badly need to rethink our foreign policy. We can do that while we are securing our OWN ports and borders and building our military back up.

Cal
Again... while our borders and ports remain wide frigging open?

Does this not seem strange to any of you guys? The very same administration that is telling us we need to invade another sovereign nation to 'keep us safe', REFUSES to secure our ports and borders. Does this seem to you as if they are truly interested in our national security?

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Does it to you?

Taproot
" Liberty,
How in He** did you manage to segue from a small history lesson about the scourge of islam to wanting no part of Isreal attacking Iran? Just where did your thinking jump the rails?"

LOL. I can understand your confusion. I got there, because I think that is one of the primary reasons we are threatening Iran and doing our darndest to build a case for invading them... to use our military to do Israel's bidding.

Ever read, "A Clean Break"?
http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm

Iraq Liberation Act of 1998
Any of you guys ever read the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998? In that bill, long ago signed into law, we established our intention to overthrow the Iraqi government.

9-11 was just used as an excuse to do so.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/libact103198.pdf

Great article Fred
Appeasement did work in 1700’s and does not work 2007. Empty threats did not work in 1700’s and did not work during Clinton’s disastrous presidency.

Force is the only thing that compels terrorist to move on to easier targets.

Run, Fred run.

Great Article
Great article Mr. Thompson. However how many missed the point made about the Koran. Now we know why Jefferson owned and studied it so thoroughly. The man did his homework! Now Mr. thompson quit teasing us and run!

Just testing links
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist


These are growing rare.
I hear Kerry plans to run again and nearly every link I found that is adverse to Kerry is no longer available.
http://www.spectator.org/util/print.asp?art_id=7655

Liberty
We are not attacking every country in the ME. Exaggeration will not prove your point. Have you ever heard of the domino effect? furthermore the best defense is a good offense. That has been proven time after time.

Lolo
I was speaking of our apparent intent. I do realize we won't touch Saudi Arabia though.

A good offense is carrying a big stick. It doesn't mean we have to preemptively use it.

Ga
The answer to your question is YES. Now, I have one for you?

What are you willing to do for your freedom? Your Constitution, the very foundation of this country, is being dismantled, piece by piece. Are you willing to stand up and demand this be stopped?

If we lose our liberty, we do NOT have a country for which to fight.

Liberty
Are you aware the Saudis busted up a big terrorist cell and took hundreds of live prisoners?
I wonder if Amnesty International will check on those Saudi prisoners?
I am worried that the Saudi may put women's undies on those prisoners heads!

thompson quote...as the problems
get bigger, the politicians get smaller...(and many Americans are getting smaller too)

liberty

The answer to your question is YES.

I assume your yes...means your ready to get nuts...put on a war face & kill if necessary to protect all you hold dear.

I assume yes also means you'd prefer to be tortured & killed before your loved ones as they watched to spare you the agony of seeing same visited on them...

These are decisions that shouldn't even need consideration/discussion, except they've been repeatedly foisted upon us by the muslim horde.

Now, I have one for you?

What are you willing to do for your freedom?

Whatever necessary against those trying to take freedom from us, if it's terrorists...it's no holds barred

Your Constitution, the very foundation of this country, is being dismantled, piece by piece.

Please expound on the Constitutional "dismantling"...i don't see it,, other than as a moonbat talking point, like "bush lied" or "mission accomplished" nonsense

Are you willing to stand up and demand this be stopped?

Sure the minute the dismantling starts...i'll be putting in calls to Scalia, Thomas, Alito & co.

If we lose our liberty, we do NOT have a country for which to fight.

and conversely...if we lose our (will to) fight, we also lose our liberty & our country

Fred Thompson
Sir, I'm holding back my contribution(s) waiting for you to announce for President. I bet a lot of others are doing the same.

Marcus

Ga, if ya don't see it you must be blind
"Please expound on the Constitutional "dismantling"...i don't see it,, other than as a moonbat talking point, like "bush lied" or "mission accomplished" nonsense"

PATRIOT Act
WARRANTLESS Wiretapping
Removal of Habeus Corpus and the Military Commissions Act

And these are just the easy ones. The politicians tell us we have to give up our rights to live, yet the border stays wiiiiiiiiiiide open. Apparently Corporations don't have to give up their "right" to illegal labor. Also Meth has been incorporated into the PATRIOT Act and this is just the beginning. This is how government works, they take away your rights for a perceived "good purpose", then they incorporate everything under the sun to those new precedents. We have seen this time after time with the commerce clause, with taxes, with federal jurisdiction, with federal law enforcement, etc. We shouldn't have to spell this out to conservatives, this should be common knowledge.

Also do you remember after OKC when Clinton tried to take away our rights with his wiretapping bill? The Republican Congress and us conservatives told them to go to hell, now most of you have FLIP FLOPPED, and when you FLIP FLOP on freedom your reasoning must have went wrong somewhere between Clinton and now.

MyOpine
No, I wasn't aware of that. Thank you for telling me.

Shores of Podunk
Let's face it, Fred, Islam is the plague of the 21st Century. And as long as the Liberals of the World keep caving in to them, we're going to have a quick WWIII. We'll lose before we realize the war is on. We have to recognize this now and stop fooling ourselves. The Muslims aren't out for fair treatment, they're out for a quiet invasion, terroristic if necessary. They want the World.

The Democrats are so good at retreat and unwillingness to defend their own country against all enemies foreign and domestic, they march in lockstep with the efforts of the Muslims to 'theocratize' the country in Islam's own image. They won't let little things like the Constitution and the American Public thwart their headlong drive to oblivion.

The Liberals seem so afraid of the Muslims, that they're willing to bend over backwards to accommodate them in every way. With Islam, the Liberals see no church-state conflict [nor does ACLU apparently---the Muslims aren't Christian or Jewish.] They see no terroristic problem in the increasing Islamic influence on daily life. They want to leave Iraq to the Muslims so they can put the whole area into an active rush to World terrorism and conquest. I guess the Liberals are ready for conversion or else---those slimy cowards!

The post-with-no-name about Australia sounds too good to be true, but it's the kind of effort we need here at home---fully and without rancor. We must have sanity and strong efforts from Congress and the President or we are lost, and I don't want to be lost. Fred, I hope when you're President, you'll act on these beliefs so we won't be engulfed by the enemy.

For you Liberal readers, this is not paranoia. It's a sane reaction to reality. And we have to work together to combat the plague, or we will be annihilated by it. You should be waking up instead of calling Conservatives names.

Errata
Sorry, that reference to the Australia comment goes back to a Frank Gaffney thread. But, it's pertinent here aw well.

Ga
"Sure the minute the dismantling starts...i'll be putting in calls to Scalia, Thomas, Alito & co."

So, do you need their number or can you look it up yourself?

Semper Fi
Fantastic little history lesson.

What as blowhard
How many minutes did Fearless Freddie serve in the United States Military??? Remember, he was draft age when we still had the draft. He is so smart, I'm sure he researched his subject thoroughly and pontificates with great wisdom NOT! Duncan Hunter is the candidate we need to both whip the Democratic casndidate and, most of all, to bring a srong and steady head and hand to the Presidency. He is THE Capable Conservative. Hunter-Palin-2008!

Sorry
My apologies for the typos in the foregoing.

Muslim history of attacks
You can rationalize and make outside excuses for what has happened associated with Isreal since the Hebrews came out of the wilderness. The bottom line is simply that historically any country that messes with Isreal ends up on the short end of the stick. Well, God sent a few in to kick butt and get their attention, but most have paid dearly.

Someone asked when Iran attacked the United States. Iran attacked the United States in 1978 when our Embassy was attacked and our people held hostage for over a year. They have never been sent to the corner for that act of war.

What Senator Thompson has done here is pointed us to the first documented Muslim attack on the United States. Hopefully we don't need to document all the Muslim backed attacks on the US since then. Just the attacks in the last 30 years makes up an impressive list.

Just a couple of question for Zeb...
zeb hardy writes: "...What as blowhard How many minutes did Fearless Freddie serve in the United States Military??? ... Duncan Hunter is the candidate we need to both whip the... Democratic casndidate and, most of all, to bring a srong and steady head and hand to the Presidency. "

OK, I give up. How many?

While we're on the subject, how many minutes did D. Hunter serve in the United States military?
And before we leave the subject, how many minutes did you serve in the United States military?

The reason I ask is because I have this really, really strong belief that only thosed who served in the military has a right to question someone elses service, or lack of service. It's sort of a put up or shut up attitude. I'm not zoning in on you Zeb, this question just sorta fipped my switch. I don't know that this applies to you or not but I'm tired of candy *sses with no military service using someone elses lack of service as a focal point for an argument.

See, I'm so stiff headed about this that I believe you should not be able to vote or hold office if you have not served in the military. Since we do not have that law I don't think service or lack of service should be an issue.

Just my 2 cents.




when
Is Fred going to announce? I have been waiting. And perhaps Newt. This guy WILL shut down the border. Good. We need it. Israel? We need to back them up pronto. they will take out Irans nukes. If someone doesnt do it--- say goodbye to Atlanta or LA.

When??
Many of us have been waiting. It's early but time is flying past. If he waits too long my limited available funds for supporting a candidate will be given to the NRA-ILA and NRA-PVF and he can go to them for backing.

Jimmy Carter, you dog,
you beat me to it.

For those of you who haven't yet checked the link that Jimmy provided in the first post, go check it out. GunnyG has a more in depth account of the "Shores of Tripoli" line in the song. It's worth your time.

Attacking Iran
Attacking Iran is really simple in my book. If we know, or have intelligence, or if the Israelis have intelligence, that tells us that Iran will reach the point of no return when it comes to nuclear development by a certain date, we, or Israel, sure as hell better act. A nuclear armed Iran would make Iraq look like a walk in the park. It is really that simple. Anything and everything must be done to make sure the fanatics that run Iran do not get thier hands on the most destructive weapon in the world.

a whole new ballgame...it's WW3
Your rebuttals are noted; throw out your old rule book – it’s obsolete, we’re now working to the WW3 rules [see ”Mike” 1:19 post, plan B – we’re there] - and bottom line is “our” survival; our rights are already getting trampled...every time the shoes come off at the airport or you bring a bag into a ballgame, you might thank abdul towelhead for the pleasure of getting frisked...and more invasive rights violations are likely to occur because we are on the cusp of the worst/most difficult war in the history of man & trying to get an edge, any edge

so all our conservative/libertarian righteousness & platitudes might be better filed in the interment camp folder until radical muslim nation is crushed beneath he11, if we have to surrender freedoms to locate terror cells or water board muslim sob's to get intel so be it...i'll walk around the airport buck naked if it helps national security; my least concern in all this is being called “flip-flopper”

yeah, we all got major distress with non-borders, but this condition during war time is treasonous policy – if they’re not going to stop these border-jumping hungry for American freedom guys; put them in the service to earn their citizenship

Iran Supports Terror, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT
In terms of Iranian terror, in regards to Israel we know full well that they fund Hamas and Hezbollah, and fully funded Hezbollah's war against Israel last summer. We know they are funding the Iraq insurgency, and sending fighters and munitions.

But I would like to post what the 9-11 commission stated in regards to Iran and thier terror in regards to the U.S. well before 9-11. It is long but should be informative.

The 9-11 Commission Report on Iran:

"In late 1991 or 1992, discussions in Sudan between al Qaeda and Iranian operatives led to an informal agreement to cooperate in providing support- even if only training - for actions carried out primarily against Israel and the United States. Not long afterward, senior al Qaedaoperatives and trainers traveled to Iran to receive training in explosives. In the fall of 1993, another such delegation went to theBekaa Valley in Lebanon for further training in explosives as well as in intelligence and security. Bin Ladin reportedly showed particularinterest in learning how to use truck bombs such as the one that hadkilled 241 U.S. Marines in Lebanon in 1983. The relationship between alQaeda and Iran demonstrated that Sunni-Shia divisions did not necessarily pose an insurmountable barrier to cooperation in terrorist operations. As will be described in chapter 7, al Qaeda contacts with Iran continuedin ensuing years." Page 61

"On November 4, 1998, the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York unsealed its indictment of Bin Ladin, charging himwith conspiracy to attack U.S. defense installations. The indictment also charged that al Qaeda had allied itself with Sudan, Iran, andHezbollah." Page 128

"Moreover, certain al Qaeda members were charged with organizing passport collection schemes to keep the pipeline of fraudulent documents flowing . . . It was well-known, for example, that if a Saudi traveled toAfghanistan via Pakistan, then on his return to Saudi Arabia hispassport, bearing a Pakistani stamp, would be confiscated. So operatives either erased the Pakistani visas from their passports or traveled through Iran, which did not stamp visas directly into passports." Page169

"As we mentioned in chapter 2, while in Sudan, senior managers in al Qaedamaintained contacts with Iran and the Iranian-supported worldwideterrorist organization Hezbollah, which is based mainly in southernLebanon and Beirut. Al Qaeda members received advice and training fromHezbollah. Intelligence indicates the persistence of contacts between Iraniansecurity officials and senior al Qaeda figures after Bin Ladin’s returnto Afghanistan. Khallad has said that Iran made a concerted effort tostrengthen relations with al Qaeda after the October 2000 attack on theUSS Cole, but was rebuffed because Bin Ladin did not want to alienate hissupporters in Saudi Arabia. Khallad and other detainees have describedthe willingness of Iranian officials to facilitate the travel of al Qaedamembers through Iran, on their way to and from Afghanistan. For example,Iranian border inspectors would be told not to place telltale stamps in the passports of these travelers. Such arrangements were particularly beneficial to Saudi members of al Qaeda. Our knowledge of the international travels of the al Qaeda operatives selected for the 9/11 operation remains fragmentary. But we now haveevidence suggesting that 8 to 10 of the 14 Saudi 'muscle' operativestraveled into or out of Iran between October 2000 and February 2001. In October 2000, a senior operative of Hezbollah visited Saudi Arabia tocoordinate activities there. He also planned to assist individuals inSaudi Arabia in traveling to Iran during November. A top Hezbollahcommander and Saudi Hezbollah contacts were involved. Also in October 2000, two future muscle hijackers, Mohand al Shehri andHamza al Ghamdi, flew from Iran to Kuwait. In November, Ahmed al Ghamdiapparently flew to Beirut, traveling - perhaps by coincidence - on thesame flight as a senior Hezbollah operative. Also in November, Salem alHazmi apparently flew from Saudi Arabia to Beirut. In mid-November, we believe, three of the future muscle hijackers, Wailal Shehri, Waleed al Shehri, and Ahmed al Nami, all of whom had obtained their U.S. visas in late October, traveled in a group from Saudi Arabiato Beirut and then onward to Iran. An associate of a senior Hezbollah operative was on the same flight that took the future hijackers to Iran. Hezbollah officials in Beirut and Iran were expecting the arrival of agroup during the same time period. The travel of this group wasimportant enough to merit the attention of senior figures in Hezbollah. Later in November, two future muscle hijackers, Satam al Suqami and Majed Moqed, flew into Iran from Bahrain. In February 2001, Khalid al Mihdhar may have taken a flight from Syria to Iran, and then traveled furtherwithin Iran to a point near the Afghan border. KSM [Kahlid Sheikh Mohammed] and Binalshibh have confirmed that several of the 9/11 hijackers (at least eight, according to Binalshibh) transited Iran on their way to or from Afghanistan, taking advantage of the Iranianpractice of not stamping Saudi passports. They deny any other reason forthe hijackers travel to Iran. They also deny any relationship between the hijackers and Hezbollah. In sum, there is strong evidence that Iran facilitated the transit of al Qaeda members into and out of Afghanistan before 9/11, and that some ofthese were future 9/11 hijackers. There also is circumstantial evidence that senior Hezbollah operatives were closely tracking the travel of someof these future muscle hijackers into Iran in November 2000. However, wecannot rule out the possibility of a remarkable coincidence - that is,that Hezbollah was actually focusing on some other group of individuals traveling from Saudi Arabia during this same time frame, rather than thefuture hijackers. We have found no evidence that Iran or Hezbollah was aware of theplanning for what later became the 9/11 attack. At the time of their travel through Iran, the al Qaeda operatives themselves were probably notaware of the specific details of their future operation. After 9/11, Iran and Hezbollah wished to conceal any past evidence ofcooperation with Sunni terrorists associated with al Qaeda. A senior Hezbollah official disclaimed any Hezbollah involvement in 9/11. We believe this topic requires further investigation by the U.S.government." Page 240-241

"Secretary Rumsfeld urged the President and the principals to think broadly about who might have harbored the [9-11] attackers, including Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Sudan, and Iran." Page 330

"Speculating about other possible states that could be involved [in 9-11], the President told us he also thought about Iran." Page 334

"The 1997 update of the 1995 estimate did not discuss the newintelligence. It did state that the terrorist danger depicted in 1995would persist. In the update's summary of key points, the only referenceto Bin Ladin was this sentence: 'Iran and its surrogates, as well asterrorist financier Usama Bin Ladin and his followers, have stepped uptheir threats and surveillance of US facilities abroad in what also maybe a portent of possible additional attacks in the United States.' BinLadin was mentioned in only two other sentences in the six-page report. The al Qaeda organization was not mentioned. The 1997 update was thelast national estimate on the terrorism danger completed before 9/11." Page 341-342

"As early as January 1994, Bin Ladin received the surveillance reports,complete with diagrams prepared by the team’s computer specialist. He,his top military committee members - Banshiri and his deputy, Abu Hafs alMasri (also known as Mohammed Atef) - and a number of other al Qaeda leaders reviewed the reports. Agreeing that the U.S. embassy in Nairobi was an easy target because a car bomb could be parked close by, they began to form a plan. Al Qaeda had begun developing the tactical expertise for such attacks months earlier, when some of its operatives -top military committee members and several operatives who were involved with the Kenya cell among them - were sent to Hezbollah training camps in Lebanon." Page 68

Khobar Towers: "In June 1996, an enormous truck bomb detonated in the Khobar Towers residential complex in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, that housedU.S.Air Force personnel. Nineteen Americans were killed, and 372 were wounded. The operation was carried out principally, perhaps exclusively,by Saudi Hezbollah, an organization that had received support from the government of Iran.While the evidence of Iranian involvement is strong,there are also signs that al Qaeda played some role, as yet unknown." Page 60


Some of Our Enemies
I like the last paragraph the best. But know this: some of our enemies are IN CONGRESS!! Read this Harry Reid and resign. Go to China, surrender your passport and join them. (You will not have such a big blabbermouth there.)

Way to Go Mr. Thompson. Run Run Run

Y'all Are Tap Dancing Around The Issue

Close, but no cigar. You all make excellent points on both sides. I would agree most, however, with Liberty if only TWO things were true:

1. America truly functioned as T. Roosevelt espoused, "Speak softly but carry a big stick."

And,

2. When it came time to use the stick we use it without hesitation, without restraint, and with total disregard of politics, diplomacy or public image.


Mike offers mind food
Mike writes: Tuesday, May, 08, 2007 1:19 PM
Islams Global MASTER PLAN
The final stage in the Islamic Master Plan for their Global Theocracy has already begun and could be completed within the next few years. I predict no more terrorist attacks against the US on the scale of 9/11, as there’s no longer a need. The plan for our downfall is based on economic melt down; not direct physical attack. I'm a retired Naval Officer, formerly involver with Strategic Planning. I've discussed the following scenario with former Pentagon Staff Officers, now retired. All concur that the following is likely.

Phase 1: The war in Iraq, now an out of control Civil war, may result in a Fundamentalist takeover, regardless of whether we withdraw now or "stay the course". We will not reconcile differences between Shiites and Sunnis that have existed for hundreds of years, and only aggravated by our presence. Fundamentalists in Iraq are now receiving arms from Syria and Iran, and financial support from Saudis citizens who hate both the U.S. and their own government for collaborating with us. Iraq won’t be stabilized in the near future, if ever. We may be forced to withdraw soon after the next election, or, as is already happening; we’ll tire of the drain in economic and human resources. Ultimately, a Fundamentalists regime would likely assume control.

Phase 2: A Fundamentalist takeover of Iraq would happen within weeks of our withdrawal, as there will be little or no resistance from US trained Iraqi troops. Once this happens, the North East border of Saudi Arabia, once protected by US occupation, will open. Massive amounts of arms will flood that country, into the hands of the majority of citizens who hate the Saudi Royal family for collaborating with the equally hated US. A coop is inevitable and would occur within months after the takeover of Iraq. Once this happens, all neighboring states, such as Kuwait, the UAE, Oman, & Qatar, will be "invited" to join the new Fundamentalist Coalition. This Coalition will then control 70 to 80 % of the worlds oil supply. And it's an economic fact that The major supplier can control price and distribution.

Phase 3: The New Islamic OPEC will then "invite" other oil producing nations to join. Venezuela and Muslim dominated Indonesia, Malaysia and Libya will show little or no resistance. (see Phase 2). Within 2 years after the fall of Iraq, the New OPEC will control over 90 % of the worlds oil supply.

Phase 4: The New OPEC will then state the terms of sale to the oil dependent world, which will include a prohibition of resale to the US and nations "uncooperative" with Islamic agendas.

Phase 5: US oil reserves are 90 to 120 days. We have no adequate fall back energy resources, (thanks largely to environmentalists), nor can any be implemented within the above timetable. From there we plunge into the economic abyss.

The above scenario could take place within the next 3 years in the event of a fundamentalist regime in Iraq. And recent events cause me to be doubt Iraq can be “stabilized” regardless of our “exit plan”. So is there a Plan "B" to avert this scenario? Yes. It’s called WW3: A Global war of Islamic cleansing. Any takers?

-------------------------------------------------


I do believe you have explained the present situation of the aims of islam and its warriors.
Both violent and propagandists.

However there is another side working all over the world with globalist thinking, wiping out Nation States.

Do you see how globalists may be using the muslims to make changes in nations that can only be done by war?

"All the world's a stage..." ~ Shakespeare

STAGED EVENTS

ORDER OUT OF CHAOS
from the Latin
ORDO AB CHAO.


The trick of creating chaos and then seizing power under the pretense of putting things back in order is a tried and true method of deception and manipulation. It's the meaning behind the Latin motto: ORDO AB CHAO meaning ORDER OUT OF CHAOS.

It's also referred to as the Hegelian Dialect after the philosopher Georg Hegel who wrote about its effectiveness. He described it as: THESIS -- ANTITHESIS -- SYNTHESIS.

Others have described it as: PROBLEM -- REACTION -- SOLUTION in that firstly you create the problem; then secondly you fan the flames to get a reaction; then thirdly (like Johnny-on-the-spot) you provide a solution. The solution is what you were wanting to achieve in the first place, but wouldn't have been able to achieve under normal circumstances.


Interesting readhttp://www.orwelltoday.com/stagedevents.shtml


Liberty has pointed out a dicotomy that the President REFUSES to address.

We have money to support our Military in over 120 Nations across the world, even guarding their borders, but GW Bush will NOT protect Americas.

If there is not a twisted mind in that scenerio, none exist anywhere.

Plus the wahabbis are Saudi.
GW's good buddies.

Most all of our ground forces are now out of the country, and fighting an endless war in Iraq, all the while we have immigrants coming in by the millions, legal and illegal.

Anyone who thinks the President is just doing this war in Iraq to protect America is not looking at his behind the scenes INACTION ON OUR OWN BORDER.....or his chummy attitude with the Saudis and other muslim nations.

The man is owned by the global elitists of the corporate world who are pushing for the erasing ot National Borders.

We could put an end to all this terrorist crap if we had the will to do it and do what it takes to WIN the **** war to begin with.





NOW is the time !
You have said it Here !

There is a time for All Good men to stand up for what they believe in, Now is the Time for you. We need you.Your country needs you. I know you are waiting for the right time. The Time is Now.

SEMPEFI

Marines Know !
The purpose of War is to destroy the will to fight of the Other side, no matter what! If you are not willing to pay the cost, then you will lose.

Political Will is part of that war, and that is were we have Lost in the past and where we will lose again With out the Leadership needed to WIN. Iraq is just the beginning not the end. Especailly if we walk away.

SEMPERFI

The U.S. needs Fred Thompson....
"Those who do not know history are destined to repeat it"

Again I find myself asking the question why I don't see your name in the running for President as of yet. I know you are considering it. I met you briefly at Harding Academy in Memphis a few years back as you where picking up your auction items. I don't know what if anything I can say to convince you to run, but we need a man like you in the Whitehouse. I am inspired and encouraged each time I hear some of your work. Whatever path you choose I would like to in turn encourage you to continue your work. I wish you the best and am standing by ready to help you in your campaign....just say the word.
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