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Thursday, August 28, 2008
Victor Davis Hanson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Farewell, NATO
by Victor Davis Hanson
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When I was growing up in the 1960s, we had a majestic Santa Rosa plum orchard on my family's farm. The trees were 40 years old and had grown to over 20 feet high. My grandfather would proudly recall how its once-bumper crops of big, sweet plums had helped him survive the Depression and a postwar fall in agricultural prices.

But by the 1960s, the towering, verdant trees were more a park than a profitable orchard. The aged limbs had grown almost too high to pick, the fruit there too few and too small to pack profitably. Yet my grandfather simply could not bring himself to bulldoze the money-losing, unproductive old orchard.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is like that noble Santa Rosa orchard. We all remember how NATO once saved Western Europe from the onslaught of global communism. Its success led to the present European Union. The Soviets were kept at bay. The Americans were engaged, while the postwar German colossus remained peaceful. A resurgent Europe followed, secure enough to prosper while complacent enough to slash defense expenditures and expand entitlements.

After the victory of the Cold War, NATO's raison d'etre became more problematic -- even as its theoretical reach now went all the way to the old borders of the Soviet Union. Yet, without the Soviet menace that had prompted the alliance, what justified the continued need for transatlantic collective defense?

We saw NATO's paralysis in the European inaction over Serbia's ethnic cleansing in the 1990s. When NATO finally acted to remove Slobodan Milosevic in 1999, the much-criticized intervention proved little more than a de facto American air campaign.

Article 5 of NATO's charter requires its members to come to the aid of any fellow nation that is attacked. But when it was evoked after Sept. 11 for the first time, NATO -- other than a few European gestures such as sending surveillance planes to fly above America -- didn't risk much abroad to fight Islamic terrorists.

Australia, a non-NATO member, is doing far more to fight the Taliban than either Germany or Spain. Many Western European countries have national directives that prevent aggressive offensives against the Taliban and other Afghan insurgents, overriding NATO military doctrine.

Take away Canada, the United Kingdom and the U.S. from Afghanistan and the collective NATO force would collapse in hours.

The enemy in Afghanistan knows this. The savvy and sinister Taliban just targeted the French contingent. It figured the loss of 10 French soldiers might have a greater demoralizing effect on French public opinion than Verdun did in 1916, when France suffered nearly a half-million casualties in heroically stopping the German advance. But 90 years ago, France kept on fighting to win a war. Now, the French parliament may meet to discuss withdrawal altogether.

There is much talk that had Georgia been a NATO member, Russia might not have attacked it. The truth is far worse. Even if Georgia had belonged to NATO, no European armed forces would have been willing to die for Tbilisi. Remember the furor in 2003 when some NATO countries -- angry at the United States -- tried to block support to member Turkey should Saddam's Iraq have retaliated against Ankara for the American invasion to remove him.

The well-intended but ossified alliance keeps offering promises to new members that are weaker, poorer and in more dangerous and distant places, but its old smug founding states are ever more unlikely to honor them.

In the last two decades, the safety of a rich Western Europe also spawned a new continental creed of secularism, socialism and anti-Americanism that embraced the untruth that the United Nations kept the peace while the United States endangered it. But if a disarmed continent counted on continued expensive American protection, then it was suicidal to mock its protector.

If NATO dissolves, Europe will at least receive a much-needed reality check. It might even re-learn to invest in its own defense. European relations with America would be more grounded in reality, and the United States could still forge individual ties with countries that wished to be true partners, not loud caricatures of allies.

That stately Santa Rosa orchard? When it finally was toppled, uprooted and cut up, we all nearly wept -- but my grandfather had new varieties of plum trees planted in its place by the next spring.

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About The Author
Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

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DNC's Most Wanted Update
DNC'S Most Wanted Update
And, I left out Obama's Mentor, Bill Ayers, convicted Domestic Terrorist, whose specialty was blowing up federal and other buildings that represented "the White Man's Establishments."

Maybe, Obama, had him stay home in Chicago, where he now teaches Marxist Economics at a Chicago, Illinois University. Wouldn't want old Bill to get antsy and blow anything up, now would we??


DNC's Most Wanted List
The DNC convention in Denver looked like America's Most Wanted. I would not be surprised to see some of these faces on John Walsh's program.

You had Don Siegleman, former governor of Alabama, fresh out of Federal Prison on Bond For Taking Bribes and Racketeering charges while governor of Alabama. Wonder how many strings his Liberal Democrat Buddies in Congress and the Justice Department pulled to get him a bond set from the 11th Circuit Court Of Appeals, while he awaits a new trial. He gave a speech at the convention, and I am sure was seated as A Super Delegate.

Then, you had that Scoundrel, Mayor Negan, of New Orleans who is under investigation, and soon to be indicted for Fraud, Theft, and Corruption in ripping off millions of dollars of FEMA money intended to rebuild devastated neighborhoods in his beloved "Chocolate City." (Negan's term, not mine, so don't none of you Libs out there jump the gun and try playing the tired old Race Card on me.)

Then, you had the Mayor of Detroit, who is out of jail on bond for Assault. I am sure the list is larger than this, but my 2000 characters is coming close to an end. And, how about Marion Crackhead Barry, mayor of Our Nations Capital City. What a Party. And the DNC had Denver Suspend Drug Laws During the Convention. They knew that Most of their Party Out there were a bunch of Druggies. Wouldn't want any Super Delegates being arrested during the convention, now would we???

Stunning
I am amazed at those here who wish to blame the victim. The borders of Georgia have been set for years.

Russia has been arming it's "citizens" in South Ossetia for quite a while and fomenting unrest.

Would we feel the same way if the Mexican government were arming gangs in Los Angeles and followed up by sending its army to reclaim the territory?

Mr. Hanson has a valid point about NATO....what does it stand for today? If not a singular enemy, then what about the values of freedom and democracy? I hate to say it, but I am ready give Mr. McCain a fresh look based on his "League of Democracies" thinking.

Personally, I like Mr Hanson
I get more good information and/or fresh thinking from him than most, other than Pat Buchanan, Paul Weyrich, Walter Williams, John Stossel, Chuck Norris, Phyllis Schlafly, Mike Adams, Doug Giles, Chuck Colson....and some others

Hard to find a stopping place once I got started thinking of my favorites.



I don't know if VDH is a neocon or not--
I rather think he's one of those few who transcend narrow ideological pigeonholes through his sheer brilliance alone. Our token response to Russia is just not based in reality. I'm no hawk; I just think our recent actions seem dreamlike, as if we know we must act (because that is what officials are supposed to do), but we don't know what act to take. The countries of NATO seem like characters in an Ibsen play. Stuck in dances and shadow plays, they do much but none of it ever seems to matter much. To jump to the other side of the world and retain the theater analogy, NATO also seems to be a kubuki theater troupe, lately. And BAD kubuki theater, at that...

Russia may cut off oil flow to the West
Any move would be timed to coincide with an emergency EU summit in Brussels, where possible sanctions against Russia are on the agenda.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008 /08/29/cnrussia129.xml




Subject: Sign the Petition
This petition is to replace neocon VDH with Talent Scout.

1. David
2. talent scout

Sign the Petition
This petition is to replace neocon VDH with Talent Scout.

1. David

Where is everyone's attention?

On morons in Denver?



RUSSIA has issued a stark warning over what it says is a build-up of Nato ships in the Black Sea, as tensions rise to their highest level since the outbreak of hostilities in Georgia.

The missile destroyer USS McFaul is already off the coast, with the US Coastguard ship Dallas docked in Georgia's port of Batumi, both to show support for the Caucasus nation. Washington has now ordered the flagship of its 6th Fleet, the sophisticated command ship Mount Whitney, into the area, saying it will deliver humanitarian supplies. But the flotilla has angered the Kremlin.

Dmitry Rogozin, the Russian ambassador to Nato, warned against western interference in Georgia's two breakaway regions, saying: "If Nato takes military actions against Abkhazia and South Ossetia, acting solely in support of Tbilisi, this will mean a declaration of war on Russia."
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/-Russian-warning-on-Nat o.4439182.jp

Farewell to NATO
My hope for America is that the next president give Hansen a call, seriously. His mind is full of fresh ideas that need to be factored in.



United Nations First...
Perhaps it will become necessary to dismantle NATO. But first let the US withdraw from the United Nations, and discuss the formation of an organization of democracies willing to fight for their own survival. Start with the US, the UK, and Australia -- then make sure future applicants are willing to put their money where their mouths are. Best not to leave a complete vacuum....



Take Our Own Country Back
The reason that these wimpy European nations are so weak, is that they became Nanny States of Socialism. Now, in England, they are daily intimidated by Invading Muslims, who have run the British under cover, while their Liberal Parliamentarians buckle under to any pressure or threat the Muslims make toward them. The British are afraid to even let children play with certain toys lest they insult some Muslim Fascists.

France has long been know for being a Socialist State and a bunch of wimps, while producing military equipment and selling to the Highest Bidders, in spite of the politics of the particular nation, as long as they pay in cash.

It is time that the United States come home from abroad, especially from Europe. We need to abandon NATO and the money we contribute. We need to abandon the UN, and tell them to get out of our country. That would save billions per year. End NAFTA, CAFTA and everyother trade agreement that is one-sided and only costs us American Citizens.

Rebuild our own Military with a draft. Secure Borders and Ports, enforce immigration laws at the source--Arrest Folks who hire Illegals. Illegals who do not leave due to lack of work, can then be rounded up and escorted to the border. No Social Services of any sort for illegals.

End Welfare, except for those who truly are disabled or elderly, and start Work Fare Programs.

Bring our factories back home. If American Businesses want to remain in another country and produce products to get away from paying decent wages here, put tarriffs on the products they bring back to the country, and then they will come home.


Paying for their own defense
If the Europeans had to pay for their own defense many of their socialist social programs
would become even more unaffordable than they already are.
The collapse of those programs could then be used to illustrate the folly of our own Leftists and their love of such programs and all things European.
Those defense Euros could no longer be used to subsidize European goods making American products more competitive.
Finally the dollar itself might regain some of the value it's lost against the Euro.

Sign the Petition
This petition is to replace neocon VDH with Talent Scout.

1. David

Honesty is as intelligent as it gets



How much information does a man need to know what is right and what is wrong?

Very little information is required more often than not.

I do not need to know all the details of a robbery to know robbery is wrong.

Works the same way in this situation between Georgia and Russia.
Between America and Russia.

Is it wrong for a person to go and interfer in anothers business?
The entire world knows the answer.

Is American national security tied to Georgias?
Why would it be?

Why is Russias and Georgias arguments any of my concern as an American?
I have no problems here to worry about?

I can reduce all the problems between Georgia, Russia, Ossetia, Abkhazia and America down to street level, where it needs to be seen clearly.

Put Russia in one house on a street.
Place Georgia and America in another house on this street.
Then place Ossetia and Abkhazia in a house between the Russian house and the Amer/Georgia house.

We are arguing over the people who live between us which of us will decide if they live in peace and make their own decisions or not.

The Russians seem to be saying they will allow the Ossetians and Abkhazians their choice to decide their own fate.

And its the Americans (neocons, not my America) and Georgians who say no, we will decide their fate.

This is my take with the information I have of the basic arguments.

The argument is about some land that the people who live on it are not being allowed to decide how they live their own lives.
Who is interferring with their God Given Rights to decide this?

Seems to me its Georgia and the neocons

You are boring
David

Dissolve it now...(NATO)
and let the Euro Socialists defend themselves.....I can envision peacenik euro socialists trying to stop a Russian armored and infantry advance through the Black Woods.......lmao.....lol.....well....gee, maybe the French will reinforce the euro-socialists near Frankfort....lmao.....lol.....the last line of defense can the stoned Dutch.....lmao....lol....

That's brilliant Talent
Well since this Neocon admin is angry at Russia why isn't Mexico and Canada building up their defenses... this Bush administration is the aggresor! our neigbors ought to crapping their pants. Actually I think I heard a news stroy that says Mexico is getting missile defense from Canada... well it makes sense.

Poor Russia,... they are just like a senseless animal one counrty 'pizzes them off' and other innocent countries have to pay for it. The KRemlin has no method to their madness... so we need to become their friends

My suggestion: since you like to write and enlighten us all is we should sign a petition get this neocon VDH out of townhall and allow you to write columns because you obviously are the one driving this debate

Talent
so the satellit countries are going on defense becaus the 'bear is angry?' at us?

Wolfgang
Reading your history lessons is like watching paint dry.


Wolfgang
So what you are saying is the British and French purposely made themselves weaker militarily because of the US position on the Suez Canal? According to you we are to believe the governments of these countries sabotaged their militaries while being threatened by the Soviet Union, to spite us.

I believe the French and British embracing socialism was the primary reason for their shrinking militaries. You can’t supply cradle to grave entitlements to your people and continue to sustain large militaries.

America is reaping what it sowed
You neocons and armchair Sergeant rock's really display your ignorance here. The europeans, if they have let their military establishments run down, have merely responded to the not-to-subtle pressure of American foreign policy. Remember a little incident called Suez back in 1956? France and Great Britain sought to exercise an independent policy there - to protect their interests in the Suez Canal. Did the U.S. back its allies? No - it sided with the soviet Union and told the British that if the military forces weren't withdrawn the U.S. would collapse the British Pound and destroy the British economy. That is verified historical fact. So...guess what the British and French did in response? The British over the next decade scrapped over 300 ships of the Royal Navy, gave up Malta, Aden, a military presence in southeast Asia - tok the attitude that if the U.S. wanted to play that way, it could do so by itself. The French did likewise - disbanded a 25 division army and withdrew from Algeria even though the rebels had been totally defeated. Don't fault the Europeans for responding to the U.S. cues - our "elites" wanted to be the only big shots on the block - now we've got it. Enjoy.

REDLAC IN AZ
So far as I can see, "strategic tweaking" of some form or other will be necessary.

I cannot see any other way to go. Exactly how to go about it? Got me by the short ones.

As I said earlier, some thoughtful brainstorming---and out of the box thinking----is definitely called for. Not gonna get it on these pages I fear. Need to look elsewhere.

Gotta go to work now. No need to address any reply to me. Thanks for coming in here with
some serious comments.

Whither NATO-2
Most Europeans believe that military force is not the solution to terrorism. They’ve had to deal with the IRA, ETA, the Baader-Meinhof Gang, etc. and see terrorism as a law enforcement matter. Also these are European powers. Britain and France, with their imperial heritage, have a global perspective. (This is the third time the British army has been in Iraq and the fourth time it’s been in Afghanistan.) However, for the rest, what happens east of Suez is largely irrelevant. Germany and Italy have only fought one major non-European campaign, in North Africa in World War II, widely considered to be a useless sideshow. They tend to see Iraq in the same light.

As for Belgium being unable to defend itself, it’s not surprising. Belgium has never been able to successfully defend itself and has always had to rely on powerful allies, i. e. Britain in 1914. That’s true of all the little countries. For all practical purposes, Europe is Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and Russia. Throw in Austria-Hungary, that was true 100 years ago.



The Japanese, who face a very real threat of a resurgent China, have increased the military power. They’ve recently launched two small aircraft carriers. (They don’t call them that, but that’s what they are.) I assume that this is only a beginning, and that Japan will eventually have big carriers capable of handling high-performance aircraft, say six of them. Japan may once again be mistress of the western Pacific.

Good perspective..but
Russia suffered more than any other nation in WWII.
They lost more people, 19-20 million in WW2.
Equal to what all other nations involved lost.
More cities destroyed than any other than perhaps Germany itself by 1945.



Jerseyvet writes- 7:41 AM EST

. The Bear ... never suffered burning cities, and millions of casualties.


Whither NATO-1
I would agree that NATO has outlived its original purpose. At this point, it makes little sense to keep any significant number of American ground troops in Europe, although the air and naval bases remain useful.

However, what should be Europe’s defense policy? During the Cold War the Bundeswehr had about 500,000 men. As a fraction of the population this is about equal to that of the current US defense establishment. Today the Bundeswehr is about half that, but what does Germany need defending against? There has been no real extra-European threat since the Turks besieged Vienna in 1683. (Now Turkey is in NATO and wants to join the EU.) Since then the threats to the peace of Europe have come from within Europe, from Louis XIV, Napoleon, Wilhelm II, Hitler, and Stalin. The idea of war between the major European powers, other than a weakened Russia, is unthinkable and, with the size of European militaries, impossible. Also the enmity between France and Prussia/Germany that dominated continental power politics since Frederick the Great is definitely finished. Nobody wants a re-militarized Germany, least of all the Germans.

Dissolve NATO
Why do we need Nato? We have the UN to solve the worlds problems and the Red Cross to deliver supplies ( isn't that all we do now) And come this January, when the Mesaiah appears the world will be a better place and the evil U.S. will be liked by all. The millions of dollars we save can be put to good use by putting windmills ontop of bridges in NYC and building a new buiding for the ingrates in the UN.

NATO
NATO was intended to keep "the Americans in, the Germans down, and the Russians out". NATO has succeeded, probably beyond what its crafters envisioned.

That said, its probably time to dissolve NATO. The greatest threat to Europe now is apathy, and a treaty organization does little to combat that, and probably only propagates it.

Russia is still a threat though to the West. I can see selective alliances being more in the US interest (GB, Poland, etc).

O boy

talent scout wrote:
They are dangerous people, always have been and always will be.
So why not try to make them friends instead of making them enemies?
I mean if its possible to do, and if we can have a dialog with the Communist Chinese why not the Russians?
=====
roadkill58 writes: 9:34 AM EST
For the same reason I don't want to make friends with Hell's Angles or Neo NAZIs. The only way they will be your friend is on their terms. We are having dialog with them but that does not mean we have to befriend them.
===
ts:
Ok
Go throw some rocks at the Hells Angels and lets see if they have a reaction aimed directly back to you.

Comparing the Russians to the Hells Angels sure fits the plan to keep a good war going doesn't it.

You work for the neocons?

No dissolution
McCain's major foreign policy speech a few months ago, as well as Obama's own comments, make it perfectly clear that neither are going to dissolve NATO. In fact, they, like Bush and Rice, have clearly indicated that we will continue with minor adjustments with the policies of the Post WWII era.

We are locked in this dance. No one knows how to get out of it, and we seem to see no one with sufficient imagination to have the courage to both reorganize our alliances, as well as redefine our purpose. They all want to "tweak" it, not change or re-organize it. McCain and Obama will not get rid of deficits in order to strengthen America's position in dealing on issues of trade. They will both continue to subsidize Europeon defense. They will not drill in Anwar and they will not make energy independence the defining issue of their campaign in order to stop watering the plants of Jihad and of Russian nationalism.

They are trapped - and so are we. And that is what Putin so shrewdly assessed.

Franklin's famous comment to his fellow delegates when we were writing the Declaration comes to mind. "We will all hang together, or we will hang separately". In his case, the only way for the delegates to avoid hanging - was to hang together. In our case, hanging together means only that we will still hang.

The only history that matters
Is the history of Georgia since 1989-present.
This history is all we need to look at to understand the present war with Russia the Country of Georgia is at war with, today.

There was no formal agreements in effect between Georgia and South Ossetia that gave Georgia the right to rule over that oblast, independent oblast even under the USSR.

Gerogia unilaterally decided they own South Ossetia, and took it upon themselves to use force in those people.

The Ossetians didn't agree and declared their same independence from Georgia that Georgia claimed from Russia.

See this conflict in how it began?
Not hard if you want to use history as it pertains to this war and not all the others in past history that are now over.

Get focused on this one and how it all began.
And why Georgia caused it to turn into a war with Russia today

Obama==PUPPET OF DNC/MARXISTS
The only thing to know about Obama for the moment is this: He is an Empty Suit, With A Very Questionable Backgroud and When It does get Questioned, the MSM and their Propaganda Machine, make sure it is not reported on. Believe nothing you hear on the MSM News or other programs concerning politics.

Obama was Hand Picked By The DNC, their Backers who are every Radical Organization in America, and especially the Labor Unions and Radical Environmentalists, and for Communists the world over.

They know Obama does not possess the Knowledge, Intellect, nor experience in Domestic or International Affairs, beyond Marxist/Mob Chicago style politics. They also know Obama is a Narcissist who loves to see his reflection in the mirror and especially on TV.

So, the DNC, in selecting Obama knew that they had a Know-Nothing Narcissist, who would Read Anything They Put on A Teleprompter, with no regard for what he says as long as he is getting to perform in front of a camera.

They know that if were to become President, that he would support anything he Was Told To Support and would never read any proposals, as he could not understand them even if he read them to begin with.

The Perfect Puppet is Obama. And He Who Pulls The Strings Of the Puppet is Called The Puppet Master. The Puppet Masters of Obama are Liberal Democrat Congressmen and women who promote their perversion agenda, Marxists from Labor Unions, such as the National Association of Mis-Educators (NAE), Abortion Advocates, and every Socialist Nation in the United Nations.
With Obama as President, your freedoms and rights would be vastly curtailed almost immediately, as the Liberal Congress would waste no time in getting every Radical Piece of Legislation passed as soon as is possible, before Americans could even tell what was going on.

This is the most critical election in the History of Our Country.

Arrest that Hanson!
There he goes again. Committing that heinous felony. Neo-conning without a yarmulka.

Since neocon is the perjorative du jour, I guess I had better change my nom du townhall to
Neocon Oilpatch Mercenary.

My lapel pin will consist of three flags. US,
Israel, and Confederate Battle. I wish to leave nobody unoffended.

VDH has penned another thoughtful article.
It isllustrates the fact that NATO needs to either be replaced or extensively altered.
How to go about doing that would be a good topic for a brainstorming session. Regrettably, that will not happen in the comments section of Townhall.


The mocking aside, lets begin
At the dissolution of the USSR.
Just so you can grasp the entire situation and the meaning of "offensive"
You fail to understand its meaning in the context as it was used by the man who told the world that Georgia provoked the fight with their offensive into South Ossetia to DESTROY Tskhinvilli.

When the USSR broke apart, there were no established right for Georgia to place their will to rule over anyone but themselves.
The people of S.O. & Abkhazia also decided they did not want Georgia to rule over them.
They went to war with each other back in 91.
In 92 the Georgians and the 2 mentioned Oblasts made a peace agreement.
Georgia broke this peace agreement when they launched this OFFENSIVE.
Once you understand this and the context of it all, it will clear your mind for you.

====



Oilpatch Mercenary writes:- 11:20 AM EST
Subject: talent scout
Thank you so much for having illuminated who started the war. Since Georgia had an offensive, obviously Georgia started it.

===
ts:
Try real hard now and keep it on topic.
We are not talking about the War in the Pacific.
That one is over.
This one is on-going.
Try to remember that so you can separate past wars from this present one.

Can you not write a bit clearer?
Put a name on "they're" so I know who you are talking about.
Is there any doubt the Russians are pizzed off?

=====
David writes:- 4:58 AM EST
Subject: ?
You think that the satellite countries are going on defense because they re getting 'pizzed off'?
====
Here is what I said and I know its very clear.
I said the Neocon policy is pizzing off the Russians and the "satellite countries" see an angry bear.
This answers your question as best I can with the use of English.




You asked and I quote you:
"Specifically, why do you think the satellite countries went on the defense?"


HERE David, once again and for about the 7th time.

I told you as plain as I know how what my answer is:
"Here is what I said and I know its very clear.
I said the Neocon policy is pizzing off the Russians and the "satellite countries" see an angry bear."

Are you trying to communicate or to confuse that simple answer?






talent scout said: - 4:41 AM EST
Subject: Neocon policy
David wrote:- 4:39 AM EST
Subject: It didn't directly address my question
Okay. Russians are bad. Specifically, why do you think the satellite countries went on the defense?
====

I SAID:
NEOCON POLICY
Is pizzing them off.
The neighbors all see it too, and knwo an angry bear when they see it

SkorpioG
At the end of WWI,1917.President Wilson helped to create the "League of Nations".The purpose of the "League" was similar to NATO;Let every nation have the right to "Self-Determination".The "League" never functioned quite as designed,nor has NATO or the UN.The problems of mankind cannot be solved by any Organization or Institution.Respect for Human Life is the only answer to the Happiness of Mankind.But,the greed of America and the Inhumanity of Russia/China does not make this an easy accomplishment.The people of the world must solve their issues, not POLITICIANS...

talent scout
Thank you so much for having illuminated who started the war. Since Georgia had an offensive, obviously Georgia started it.

So, since MacArthur mounted an offensive that went all the way from Australia to Iwo Jima,
MacArthur must have started the Pacific War.

Across the Atlantic, Patton did an offensive that reached and crossed the Rhine without stopping for an artillery preperation. An offensive into Germany? Old George clearly started the war, now didn't he?

Chester Nimitz did a (desperate) offensive at Midway. This prevented a defensive Japanese-German linkup in the Indian Ocean. Merrill's Marauders and Ord's Chindits also did a CBI offensive for the same purpose of preventing
the Berlin-Tokyo defensive.

Golly Gee, Sergeant Carter. This is fun.
Just find the guy who is friendly to you, proclaim him guilty, and you never have to go in harm's way.



Tough Love
NATO's design as a defensive alliance served its purpose. That purpose is fulfilled and the organization has spent the last decade and a half looking for something to do. I say we should retire the alliance as is and then build a new one with those countries who share our values and way of life. For those who don't want to join...let them go.

The U.S. is NATO
During the Cold War, when weak and timid Europe need our protection, they feigned support for NATO. An organization whose military strength essentially consisted of the U.S.

After what was called the end of the Cold War, Europe turned its back on both NATO and especially the U.S. Now that the Bear is once again pillaging their neighborhoods, they turn to us once again and say, "do something."

NATO is an obsolete alliance, most of whose members are content to contribute little or nothing while demanding we dedicate our money and military for their protection. It is time for NATO to dissolve.

A good first step would be for the United States to withdraw. It could then be reconstituted in an alliance of nations serious about providing for their own defense. Only then should the U.S. become a member and not the sole benefactor.

NATO and UN
I think that NATO should simply shut down since none of the members (except the U.S.) wants to honor its agreements. Then the U.S. should start using its veto power in the UN Security Council to block things that are detrimental to our country - just as Russia and China do.

We need to realize we cannot have treaties with every country in the world when they don't bother to honor them. We didn't have treaties with Europe when WWI started and I don't think we did when WWII started. We got in because we could see our own danger. We should ignore all the requests for money and for military aid unless it is good for us.

Sailer: we need young minister in NATO?
Sailer: do we need young NATO partner ?
Steve Sailer (http://isteve.com ) poses the question, which I reproduce here: should USA really be in a hurry to pull such a young defense minister (29 years old) into NATO ?
I add personally, that it is pretty bad, when members of the cbinet has dual sitizenship or their spouses (Saakashvili's) have the citizenship of other countries. It is not about dual loyality. It is about tendency to adventurism, when in case of bad outcome you always have a place to retreat.

Wikipedia 2-nd info: Georgian cabinet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temur_Iakobashvili
Temur Iakobashvili (also transliterated as Temuri Yakobashvili) (born 1967) is a Georgian political scientist, diplomat and politician serving as State Minister for Reintegration since January 31, 2008.
Iakobashvili was born into a Georgian Jewish family in Tbilisi. He graduated from the Department of Physics at Tbilisi State University in 1984. He further attended Diplomatic Course at the universities of Oxford and Birmingham in the United Kingdom (1998), obtained the Yale University scholarship for the World Leaders’ Program (2002), and took international security courses at the John F. Kennedy School of Government in the United States (2003).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kezerashvili
Davit Kezerashvili (born September 22, 1978, i.e. as of now he is 29 years old) is the Georgian Minister of Defence. Kezerashvili was born in Tbilisi. He studied in Russia and Israel before studying law and international relations at Tbilisi State University.
Kezerashvili is a former Israeli and is fluent in Hebrew. After working in the Justice Ministry he became an assistant to Mikhail Saakashvili. Saakashvili helped him become chief of the Tbilisi City Council. On November 11, 2006 he was appointed as Georgian Defense Minister, replacing Irakli Okruashvili. Shalva Natelashvili of the Georgian Labour Party criticized Kezerashvili's appointment, arguing that he "has never served in the army... doesn't even have the title of sergeant and has no clue about the armed forces."

WIKIPEDIA info about Georgean revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Revolution
The "Revolution of Roses" (often translated into English as the Rose Revolution) was a bloodless revolution in the country of Georgia in 2003 that displaced President Eduard Shevardnadze.
A significant source of funding for the Rose Revolution was the network of foundations and NGOs associated with American billionaire financier George Soros. The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies reports the case of a former Georgian parliamentarian who alleges that in the three months prior to the Rose Revolution, "Soros spent $42 million ramping-up for the overthrow of Shevardnadze." Speaking in Tblisi in June of 2005, Soros said, "I'm very pleased and proud of the work of the foundation in preparing Georgian society for what became a Rose Revolution, but the role of the foundation and my personal has been greatly exaggerated."

Cont'd.
And those shock waves will reverbrate into Moscow, Caracas, and Tehran. Initially, the very announcement that the US and Europe have decided to develop US and Canadian reserves to replace current supplies, and the demonstration of the resolve to pay any price to develop them, will drive oil prices down. And the subsequent actions to develop those reserves will force will force energy suppliers, faced over the next decade with the loss of their US and Europeon markets, and the revenues they need to prop up those regimes in places like Russia and Iran, to suddenly take us very, very seriously indeed. No one talked about cost when we developed the Atom bomb, and no one talked about cost when we put 12 million men in uniform to defeat German and Japan. If you believe, as I do, that this is the crucial issue of our day, then no one should talk about the cost to extract that oil.

Of course, all I see today is confusion. Our confusion - and Europe's confusion. Our lack of resolve, and Europe's lack of resolve.

NATO is still a good umbrella for the
former Eastern block countries freed from communist domination.

As to Europe discovering its own energy, there is precious little there. Poland has the Silesia oil fields, which is why Hitler struck there first in 1939.

Right through WW II Germany and France vied for the Ruhr coal mines.

Europe, otherwise, has no oil or fossil fuels, which is why both France and Germany get 1/4-1/3 of their energy supplies from nuclear.

Cont'd.
It's far more complicated than that. The US and Europeon economies are now hostage to our perceived enemies. If you attack Russia, or Iran, for that matter, not only will many of the lights go out across Europe, but the fragile US and World economy will be thrown into a recession. If you want to control China, you will have to stop selling her our debt, and reinvest in manufacturing in the US to reduce our reliance on her for the necessities we now buy.

Some of you need to smell the roses.

Often, to win, you need to show that you are willing to win.

At the heart of all of these issues is energy. If the US and Europe announced a Manhattan project to end their reliance on unreliable sources of energy, all they would need to do is to give preference to domestically produced product and guarantee the price to the oil industry necessary to extract it. If it costs $115 per barrel, or whatever, to extract oil from shale, then regardless of world markets, we would buy that oil.

Anti-market and anti-competitive - of course. But it would send shock waves throughout the world of energy, as we clearly have the reserves to gear up and produce what we need. Indeed, we also - in Canada and the US - have the reserves to supply much of Europe as well.

We must want to win.
Post WWII US policy dictated that Germany and Japan should not re-arm, and the French should have forces only if they participated in NATO. Americans did not want Europe to re-arm, given we'd just fought two devastating world wars. Today, we complain about the fact that Europe, having fallen into dependency on US forces, and having invested their national wealth in their economies as well as their social services, lacks the forces to oppose Russia.

This policy was successful on two fronts. The USSR was defeated, and Europe did not re-arm, thus, we did not have any more Europeon wars to fight.

However, the world has moved on. Russia, with her 145 million people and declining population, is attempting to reclaim some of her lost prestige. On the one hand, it would be absurd to compare Russia to the rest of Europe, given that it outnumbers her by 4 to 1, and has an economy that is vastly larger. On the other hand, the bear is at least unified internally, and can present a military threat, which in turn, is magnified by her energy resources on which Europe relies.

NATO represents the world as it was, not the world as it is, and neither the US nor Europe has made the adjustment. Wars are no longer just military wars. Rather, the weapons today include energy, finance, debt and trade. Energy consumers will ship $2.2 trillion dollars to energy suppliers this year, trade has integrated our economies and increasingly forced the West to rely on other countries for the necessities it consumes, America's deficit spending has forced her to finance over $4 trillion dollars with other countries, and the West's - including America's major corporations - now obtain over 1/2 their revenue from outside their borders.

This is the world as it is - not as it was. The West cannot contain nor alter the behavior of Russia, China nor the oil producers with a purely military nor diplomatic response.


talent scout Writes:
They are dangerous people, always have been and always will be.
So why not try to make them friends instead of making them enemies?
I mean if its possible to do, and if we can have a dialog with the Communist Chinese why not the Russians?

For the same reason I don't want to make friends with Hell's Angles or Neo NAZIs. The only way they will be your friend is on their terms. We are having dialog with them but that does not mean we have to befriend them. What they did in Georgia was wrong. If Southern CA decided to become part of Mexico and the Mexican Army crossed the border to assist their hispanic cousins wouldn't that be an act of war? If the people in the rebellious regions wanted to become Russian they could have just immigrated. You can move and take your personnal belongings but you can't take the land. This was nothing more than a land grab by the Russians.

Europe and history
Those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. After WW1, Europe wanted to forget the horrors of the war. All they wanted to do was live their lives in peace. Hell, wasn't that the war to end all wars? Yeah. Now we come to the 21st century. The USA became the bulwark and through productivity, allowed the world some peace, which, by the way, Europe didn't appreciate one bit. Now we have another country, the same as Germany in the 1930's, that wants more living space, don't know why, they are the largest country in the world, but they were shamed into relinquishing the territories that they grabbed after WW2. They want to erase the shame. They are flexing their financial muscle, but that wasn't enough. The countries that they lost doesn't want to be part of this plan. 1st, they want Georgia, because Georgia is the way to get Belo-Russia, Ukrain, eventually, they want Poland. And, unless Europe does something about it, Europe will be in the same possition as they were in the 1930's. Eventually, they will be crying to the USA to get their ashes out of the fire. I hope that we are smarter this time around.

Let them fight their own battles?
Yea right. We can either fight them over there while they are weak or fight them on our door step when they are strong. The let them fight their own battles nonsense is exactly what Hitler was counting on. Had the West including the US made a strong showing and invoked the Versallies Treaty Hitler would not have had the military to wage war regardless of what his intentions were. Ignoring a problem does not make it go away. All of you should know that from the attack on 9-11 unless of course you are convinced it was an inside job. But then you believe we have aliens from Roswell in a warehouse and that Ron and Nichole were really killed by Columbian drug lords. What the situation in Georgia does is shine the light on a dangerous and aggressive Russia. Since this latest act went unchecked be assured there will be more. It is just like 1936 all over again when everybody wanted to bury their heads in the sand and take Hitler at his word when in reality they knew he could not be trusted any more than Saddam Hussein could. Maybe if Osama Obama gets elected he can make Rodney King Secretary of State then "we can all just get along".

Grow up, Euro guys
The Europeans are like a thiry year old with a good job who is still living at home with the parents. Quick to criticize, slow to pick up the check. A lot of this is our fault. Even before the fall of the Soviet Union, we let them get away with not even paying for their own defense.

The American people clearly are not going to support the use of force to support Georgia, or even Germany. Look at Iraq -- we had it all -- UN support, a truly evil dictator, clear cut evidence of genocide (the Kurdish gassings), invasion of Kuwait, refusal to abide by treaties, and virtually 100% support by both American political parties for the war. Now, Bush is the "worse President ever" and the country is divided.

No future President with any brains is going to go to the rescue of Taiwan, Poland, Ukraine, Germany or Japan. These countries need to figure out what to do without big Daddy America.

Boot the United Nations!
NATO still serves as a deterrent to Putin’s expansionist Russia in Eastern Europe and is therefore of continued use. I do agree that the rich, lazy, and cowardly Western Europeans should shoulder a far heavier burden. The United States should not continue to bear the brunt of the fiscal and blood guarantee.

The United Nations, however, serves no legitimate U.S. purpose. We should not continue to finance this gathering of our enemies.

The U.S. should withdraw from the U.N and kick its headquarters out of the country.

This is all academic however, as the U.S. will not withdraw from either.

Jerseyvet
Puts it all in perspective. Well said.

While the world slowly starts unraveling again, the two major parties are more interested in personality parades than the national interest, the major media is complicit in the distraction, and the populace willingly goes along as long as they have their Tevo's and their gas tanks are still full.

God help us all.

Balance of power
For a couple of centuries, Britain found itself on the winning side in the vast majority of its wars by staying aloof form entanglements and providing a balance of power. When other folks started wars, it determined which side it wanted to win, and joined in on that side. Pax Britannica was the result of aggressive little countries figuring out that they usually lost when they started wars against the British interest. Our revolution was an anomaly. We need to get out boots home and project power by sea air and space capability.
As for Georgia and who shot John, it was not Georgia who sent troops across a sovereign border. If we sent troops to El Paso to prevent an attempt to secede, Mexico would be committing an act of war to send troops to El Paso to "protect the Hispanic population?.

The Eagle Under Attack
The world is a dangerous place and it will always be a very dangerous place. The Bear is on the prowl again, trying to reclaim its old empire. It never realized it was defeated, never suffered burning cities, and millions of casualties.

The Great Game is on again. Russia is feeling its oats, bolstered by a surfeit of oil for the Bear. Meanwhile the Dragon waits in the wings, its one-child policy having deprived millions of testosterone-filled men of potential mates but they'll make a fighting machine more terrifying than the hordes of Genghis Khan.

...While the U.S. stands on the brink of electing a neophyte president who promises to eliminate our missile defenses and stockpiles of nuclear weapons.

God help us all.


Get Out Of Nato
Yes, get out of Nato. Get out of the United Nations and get it off US soil. Bring our troops home from Germany, Japan, Korea and all the other places that we are protecting because they will not protect themselves. We are fools giving away the working American's treasure. Now at last we are starting to feel the pain from our foolish globalism. Wake up American !






















Stop supporting European welfare states
Our willingness to spend on defense of Europe allowed its citizens to forgo their own defense and build cradle to grave nanny states, which in turn bite the hand (US) that feeds it.

We should pull out of NATO and tell the Europeans they need to defend themselves. We will be amazed at how popular good old USA will become there.

agonizingly small steps to enlightenment
While I totally agree with most posters here that NATO ought to be consigned to the ash-heap of history, is it not discordant to have the present occupant of the whitehouse feverishly foisting NATO memberships into the Caucasus, Balkans, and other areas?

Perhaps our president needs to read some of these posts.

To be fair, Clinton did some of this foisting too.

Oh, yes, the neocons will blather on about how we are not foisting anything on anyone, but rather these nations are freely choosing to join this relic.

I suspect these nations' deliberations on whether to join are strongly affected by this administration's offers of financial inducements(bribes).

Good old American taxpayer funds at work.

Enough to make a neocon's heart pump with pride.

Cough.

Even a reliable Bush administration hack such as VDH is concluding NATO has outlived its usefulness, but nowhere in his piece does he wonder why Bush is continuing to foist this relic onto the world.

Oh well, a neocon Bush supporter can only contemplate so much at any one time.

But it is a start, and for that I applaud VDH.

Now if only we can get uber-neocon Bush apologist Charles Krauthammer to see the light.

That might be a bridge too far.

Talent for U.S. Diplomat
with your grace and eloquence not only are you going to reason with those backwards 'neocons' we ought to send you to talk with Putin and work something out... tell him to stop 'pizzing off' his neighbors

your right you do know more than me

?
You think that the satellite countries are going on defense because they re getting 'pizzed off'?

Right on the mark, curmudgeon
I agree with everything you said.
I am sick of all the worlds problems anyway, got enough of our own to deal with

Neocon policy
David - 4:39 AM EST
Subject: It didn't directly address my question
Okay. Russians are bad. Specifically, why do you think the satellite countries went on the defense?
====
Is pizzing them off.
The neighbors all see it too, and knwo an angry bear when they see it

I see you are incapable
Of grasping the situation even if you read the news David.
You have failed to understand what you are reading.
I see no use in trying to talk to you.
Have a good evening

It didn't directly address my question
Okay. Russians are bad. Specifically, why do you think the satellite countries went on the defense?

History?
NATO was created as an answer to the Warsaw Pact. The Warsaw Pact died with the USSR. I've argued for many years that NATO should have been disbanded when that occured. However, that would have broken too many rice bowls in Brussels.

Instead, NATO, writing checks that nobody could cash, expanded to the borders of Russia, a country with a long history of paranoia and concern about the "near abroad". Why is anyone surprised the the Russians interpreted that action as agression against them?

I do not give Putin & Co. a pass on the recent Russian-orchestrated events in Georgia, but it was almost a certainty that something like thos would happen as Russia gained wealth from oil and gas. Now we have a angry, nationalistic Russia controlling most of the energy needs of the EU, just as the Gulf States control energy needs of much of the rest of the world.

Short-sighted "statesmen" with no concept of history, national interests, national pride, or national resentments will be the death of us all yet.

time to get out of nato
the plain fact is that the us can not fight a war against a serious opponent because of 60 years of unpunished treason. in any war, the first force to mobilize is the traitors. they are loud, well funded, safe from prosecution, and confident they can lose any war. it is better to not get into a war than to lose it. it is time to cut europe loose and let it defend itself, if it choses. i submit that they would surrender, and if they do, they should suffer the consequences. what difference does it make to an american if europe is conquered by islam or russia? they might break free of russia an another 70 years, but noone ever breaks away from islam. spain did it temporarily, but seems determined to resubmit to the prophet. i dont see any need to maintain troops in korea either. south korea is economically much stronger than the north, and should be able to defend itself. if we pulled out of korea, we would be spared the repeated "student" demonstrations against our "occupying army"

My question that gets no answer

Two examples of the President working to take land from one nation to give to another, yet refuses this for South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Read up on Kososvo and Israel.
The Bush "road map for peace"

Israel must give up land to the Arabs, according to Bush.
Serbia must give up land to the Albanians, according to Bush

Georgia must NOT give up land to the Ossetains and the Abkhazians, cause they favor Russian idenity and government over Georgia.

Why the double standard?

Goodnight
I read it, responded to it... goodnight.
One thing is clear you know how to read the news... but you don't understand what is going on. You've ignored the question that I began with on my first post, unless you answer it I don't think we can have a conversation about the breadth of this topic.

Thank you again Mr. Talen, goodnight.

This was my answer
David asked:
"Somebody explain to me why Russia feels threatened when other countries make moves to protect themselves because they don't believe the motives of Russia?"


Here is my answer:
Russia has been guilty of some very nasty history on its own people, let alone its neighbors.

They are dangerous people, always have been and always will be.
So why not try to make them friends instead of making them enemies?
I mean if its possible to do, and if we can have a dialog with the Communist Chinese why not the Russians?

Here david, my answer, its the same one

Hey Vic
Bye

But here is the facts, believe it or not.
And I do not have all night showing it to you.

Tbilisi admits misjudging Russia
By Jan Cienski in Tbilisi

Published: August 21 2008 19:21 | Last updated: August 21 2008 19:21

Georgia did not believe Russia would respond to its offensive in South Ossetia and was completely unprepared for the counter-attack, the deputy defence minister has admitted.

Batu Kutelia told the Financial Times that Georgia had made the decision to seize the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali despite the fact that its forces did not have enough anti-tank and air defences to protect themselves against the possibility of serious resistance.



no you didn't
whether you agree with me or not I answered everyone of your questions.

I'll give you one more chance: Why did the satellite countries go on defense after Russia moved into Georgia?

I appreciate you participation.

I did answer David
Its lie to say I didn't.

There is a limit to the words one can type on TH.
I gave my answer to Davids question and anyone can read it here.
http://townhall.com/Columnists/PatrickJBuchanan/2008/08/25/ pushing_russia_into_the_cold" target="_blank">http://townhall.com/Columnists/PatrickJBuchanan/2008/08/25/ pushing_russia_into_the_cold


I do not intend to spend the rest of my life trying to satisfy his demands and write a book.
I answered it as best as I can on this medium and the time I had to spend on it then


Here so it is not missed:
http://townhall.com/Columnists/PatrickJBuchanan/2008/08/25/ pushing_russia_into_the_cold" target="_blank">http://townhall.com/Columnists/PatrickJBuchanan/2008/08/25/ pushing_russia_into_the_cold


talent
Totten is in Georgia. Look, I am not going to waste all night arguing with you. I know what Russia has been doing in the past few years, I know what AP and it minions have been doing. I can 2 and 2 together when I see conflicting reports.

This is my last post, you can be like Ripley, Believe It or Not.

Ok, screw your question
David 3:51 AM EST
Subject: You ignored my question
Go back and read yourself... you ignored my question. I read your response and you didn't answer my question. You won't.

===
I did answer it, you never answered my nearly as well.

Cause you can't.
Just say "they don't believe it" ha ha
Take a hike

Here Vic, direct from Georgia
http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task= view&id=6446&Itemid=65


Tbilisi admits it miscalculated Russian reaction
August 22, 2008
FINANCIAL TIMES
August 22 2008

By Jan Cienski in Tbilisi

Georgia did not believe Russia would respond to its offensive in South Ossetia and was completely unprepared for the counter-attack, the deputy defence minister has admitted.

Batu Kutelia told the Financial Times that Georgia had made the decision to seize the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali despite the fact that its forces did not have enough anti-tank and air defences to protect themselves against the possibility of serious resistance.


You ignored my question
Go back and read yourself... you ignored my question. I read your response and you didn't answer my question. You won't.


talent scout
I have seen that post a million times attributed to AP. I no longer believe much of what AP says with regard to local news.

They have shown themselves to be nothing more that propaganda ministers for the anti-American crowd.

Just imagine yourself
In the Georgian Army and reading this, knowing many of your friends had been killed due to Saakashvilli and this morons mistake.

Then imagine him already in NATO and pulling a stunt like this.
Now everyone can say if Georgia had been in NATO, Russia would not have dared do this.
Making the same stupid mistake these morons made.
Russians have said they will go to war over these two break-away oblasts


quote:
Batu Kutelia told the Financial Times that Georgia had made the decision to seize the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali despite the fact that its forces did not have enough anti-tank and air defences to protect themselves against the possibility of serious resistance.

David likes to make up stuff
David writes:2:58 AM EST
Subject: Pravda
Mr. Talent is incapable of understanding why the satellite countries began trying to defend themselves in the first place...

he doesn't know why.
====
ts:
Now if I send you back your attitude you send me you going the cry and whine?

I answered you on Pats thread, go read it.

I see I know more than you do

Batu Kutelia
http://www.mod.gov.ge/?l=E&m=11&sm=3&st=425&id=494

He is the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Gerogia.
This man said Georgia started it, confirmed by the people who live in South Ossetia.

Now you all can believe you got the truth and dismiss this man who knows if you want to.

I am not joining in.



Tbilisi admits misjudging Russia
By Jan Cienski in Tbilisi

Published: August 21 2008 19:21

quote Batu Kutelia:
Georgia did not believe Russia would respond to its offensive in South Ossetia


Offensive means Georgia started it

My God Vic
Vic writes: 2:50 AM EST
Subject: talent scout
You have been listening to the Russian propaganda ministers at AP. Georgia did not start this war. Read Michael Totten.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-abo ut-1.php
===
I read Michaeltotten two nights ago.
Looks very sincere, and is no doubt.
I have been reading about this all over the internet since day one, and have found just as sincere accounts that are the opposite.

So who do I believe?
I believe this man, he knows what he is talking about Vic.
Why don't you read it and see for yourself you are the one who is believing the propaganda.

Here Vic an open admission Georgia started this:
Tbilisi admits misjudging Russia
By Jan Cienski in Tbilisi

Published: August 21 2008 19:21

Georgia did not believe Russia would respond to its offensive in South Ossetia and was completely unprepared for the counter-attack, the deputy defence minister has admitted.

Batu Kutelia told the Financial Times that Georgia had made the decision to seize the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali despite the fact that its forces did not have enough anti-tank and air defences to protect themselves against the possibility of serious resistance.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0d8beefe-6fad-11dd-986f-0000779fd 18c,dwp_uuid=66e078d0-66ca-11dd-808f-0000779fd18c.html?ncli ck_check=1

It was in my first post for crying out loud.

Batu Kutelia knows better than any of us, and he admits Georgia started it.
Mike totten needs to keep digging it appears to me

NATO has always been a treaty designed
for the U.S. to backstop Europe in protection from the Soviets. Yes, they have provided some support for the U.S. in the M.E. but it is almost laughable. And why is that?

It is because, even if the Europeans wanted to help, they could not provide much more than what they have. Since the U.S. has been providing for their defense since WWII they have built up no military.

Just like a man who sits in a wheelchair for 50 years will allow his legs to atrophy to the point of becoming a true cripple, Europe has allowed their military to atrophy. There is a reason Europe does not pursue an aggressive foreign policy and it has nothing to do with John Kerry’s nuance.

And now the modern NATO has been trying to become all things to all people. Like it usually does when you try to satisfy everyone, you satisfy no one.

Yes, it is time to eliminate NATO, but it has little to do with Georgia.

Pravda
Mr. Talent is incapable of understanding why the satellite countries began trying to defend themselves in the first place...

he doesn't know why.

talent scout
You have been listening to the Russian propaganda ministers at AP. Georgia did not start this war. Read Michael Totten.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-abo ut-1.php

Steve wrote:
"The fact that their defense minister is a moron does not vindicate the West for its inaction."

===
And if he is a moron, why should that obligate America to go fight the Russians for the moron?
So we all can be morons too?
Baloney
Let Europe fight their own fights

Hey Steve, I posted this

Talent scout writes:- 12:16 AM EST
Farewell, NATO

I am thankful Georgia was not in NATO when they decided to launch an attack on Tskhinvali.

This guy would of had us in war with Russia.

Just like Pat Buchanan has been talking about.

Tbilisi admits misjudging Russia
By Jan Cienski in Tbilisi

========
You are the one who made this personal at me and makes no sense in what I had posted.

Steve writes: 12:36 AM EST
Scout:
Yeah, maybe if we just hang out and stick to our own business everything will be ok. Let the small former Soviet bloc countries fall. What problem is it of ours? Let Putin continue West when Europe won't fight. Who cares - we have illegal immigration and high taxes to worry about!
===
ts:
I did not appreciate the mocking attitude either, nor posting this as if I had said anything for you to say this to me to begin with.
If you do not want a response to such as this, don't write it and use it to paint me as if it fits anything I had said.

I never said everything would be ok, let the Europeans fight for themselves is what I say.

The comment about Russia was due to the insinuation Russia was wrong to have prepared for an attack on Ossetia.
Or that is how it looked in the way you wrote it.

Steve wrote:
"Russia was massing forces on the border of South Ossetia and preparing for operations for at least weeks before Georgia's "assault".

That cause Georgia had been massing forces for months

Farewell,NATO
NATO was created to defend against and defeat the Soviet Union.That mission was completed almost 20 years ago.What is needed now is an alliance to defend against and defeat Islamic Jhadists.Poland is more of an ally than Spain,Italy,Greece,and Turkey.Maybe we should let them out and let Georgia in.What I'm getting at is Nato should be reorganized not disbanded.Russia can still be as much of a threat as Iran is in the Middle East and Europe.

do we have to suffer these morons?
Why must we suffer these neo-con morons!!

"success led to the present European Union. " Yeah, the European Union of soviet socialist nations. yeah a real bonus! Or the dialectical war in Serbia where we bombed a US alley on behalf of the KLA, a MArxist revolutioanry drug running organization! And where all the so called genicide was a fraud!

Oh yeah Hansen your a real brain! A real Historian. Any more idiots like you and there will be no conservative movement left.


Dissolve NATO
NATO is worthless so are our foreign policy, look we cannot promote affirmative action and put Grandma Albright, or Marxist Powell or who knows from where Dr. Rice to go and project our power. We need Intellectuals like Dr. Kissinger, and true military men like Alexander Haig to remind our Russian friends that pound for pound our tanks, ships, planes can send a resonable message. We should have deployed 82nd Airborne and Marines within 36 hours as part of our rapid deployment. That would have put the Russians in a position to guess are we crazy enough to go after them and if so are we going nuclear some point and time. They would not jeopardize the safety and lives of their newly crowned billionaires that resides in Moscow, in fact they would have been instrumental to starting another revolution which they are so used to and topple Tsar Putin. But since we lost the iniciative we can sit and watch and as we one day lose our nation we can all celebrate the success of useless civil rights and our affirmative actions.
God Bless America

Amen
My vote is if they don't hold up their end of the treaty ie Afghanistan then we should dissolve the alliance! Let's be honest it was designed to defeat the USSR and we did. Time for something new.
We should then immediately create a new alliance with some modern yet appropriate acronym to combat aggression anywhere. Whether it be terrorism, N. Korea, or Russia. Then we should invite Britain, Australia, Ukraine, Georgia and any other country that has and will live up to the alliance. It should be modeled after NATO but with some changes to update it to the modern threats.
If any of the member countries fail to live up to the term of the alliance they should be kicked out. To use a modern term voted off the island!

Bravo!
The Italian pilots in Afghanistan, on permanent stand-by, complain if their uniforms get soiled!

Most week-ends in most major European cities are like New Year's Eve or St. Pat's in the states. While Americans have been working two jobs for the past several decades in order to pay for Europe's defense, Europeans have been living it up... all the while mocking & laughing at us, their white-trash cousins.

They owe us, big time! But gratitude is not their strong suit. Time to let them fend for themselves.

yes, lets get out of NATO
Yes, we need to get out of NATO. How many billions of dollars have we spent defending these europeans from Russia lo these many years? It is argued that if we hadn't defended Europe, the USSR would have invaded and blah blah blah! To which I say, so what? If the Europeans didn't want to defnd themselves, they should deal with the consequences themselves.
And by the way, if the USSR was our enemy during the whole Cold War, then why was the IMF and the World Bank, institutions the USA control, supplying them with money? why didn't we just cut off their funds and let the Workers Paradise fall on its own?
The time has come. Get out of NATO. Get out of SEATO. Get out of OAS. Get out of every treaty that ties up our military and binds us to the stupidity of other nations' policies. Bring our troops home. End the empire before it ends us.

Sometimes posting here just doesn't pay.
You end up in a debate with someone who is clearly intoxicacted (or worse, is really exercising his full mental ability) and you are tempted to respond to bizarre statements that have nothing to do with what you posted. Did I imply that "Russia" was stupid? Suggesting economic sanctions and support for those young democracies on Russia's border means I should go and fight Russia? Oh, never mind.

Hope this interesting article inspires some actual thoughtful debate tomorrow.

Thats exactly right Steve
Let the Europeans fight for themselves.

Of course Russia had their Military ready, just like we do when we are threatened.

Guess you are one of those who think the Russians were too stupid to see what Georgia was up to.

I have a feeling you really do not care if it was Georgia who started this or not.

Why don't you go fight the Russians?
You can die for these morons like Saakashvilli if ya like.
Plenty Russians in Georgia for you to go whip



Actually, scrapping NATO
isn't a bad idea. And part of me wouldn't mind seeing Brussels, Paris, and select other European capitals get a good butt whoopin'. Still, I'd rather that whatever Westerners have a pair actually stand up to Putin, kick them out of the G8, start seizing Russian assets the way they seize private assets, and make a strong show of force that makes Putin think again before any further assaults on neighboring countries.

Scout:
Yeah, maybe if we just hang out and stick to our own business everything will be ok. Let the small former Soviet bloc countries fall. What problem is it of ours? Let Putin continue West when Europe won't fight. Who cares - we have illegal immigration and high taxes to worry about!

This is amazingly stupid fauxpolitic. Russia was massing forces on the border of South Ossetia and preparing for operations for at least weeks before Georgia's "assault". They were also providing material support to anti-
Georgian forces in Ossetia, which was technically (if not historically) part of Georgia. The fact that their defense minister is a moron does not vindicate the West for its inaction.

Scrap NATO
The Europeans have degraded their military capabilities to the extent that they can't possibly hold up their part of the deal -- even if they had the will.

The Defense Minister of Belgium actually admitted that, "we don't think of our military as a fighting force." At least he was honest.

Let the mighty EU fend for itself.

Farewell, NATO

I am thankful Georgia was not in NATO when they decided to launch an attack on Tskhinvali.

This guy would of had us in war with Russia.

Just like Pat Buchanan has been talking about.




Tbilisi admits misjudging Russia
By Jan Cienski in Tbilisi

Published: August 21 2008

Georgia did not believe Russia would respond to its offensive in South Ossetia and was completely unprepared for the counter-attack, the deputy defence minister has admitted.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0d8beefe-6fad-11dd-986f-0000779fd 18c,dwp_uuid=66e078d0-66ca-11dd-808f-0000779fd18c.html?ncli ck_check=1

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