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Wednesday, February 04, 2009
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
We Can't Spend Our Way to Prosperity
by John Stossel
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Washington never changes, no matter who's in power. Give a gang of politicians a chance to spend our money, and they will spend it -- the more the better. An economic downturn is hog heaven; for now they have a justification to spend big time: "economic stimulus." Anything and everything can be proposed as long as it can be said to "inject money into the economy" and "create jobs."

Does $819 billion sound like too much? Au contraire. It may not be enough. Ask Paul Krugman and the other Keynesians. The danger, they say, lies in spending too little. Not to worry. The Senate will probably throw in more money. And the Obama administration says this is just the beginning. "While many of the projects are a down payment on long-term goals, including energy policy reform, health-care reform and the expansion of infrastructure investment, the goal has never been to accomplish every legislative goal in one fell swoop," White House spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi thinks that hundreds of millions of dollars for family-planning services will stimulate the economy. My colleague George Stephanopoulos of "This Week" was incredulous. But Pelosi was ready for him: "Well, the family planning services reduce cost. ... The states are in terrible fiscal budget crises now. ... [C]ontraception will reduce costs to the states and to the federal government".

Fortunately, the White House saw that as a stretch and distanced itself from Pelosi. "The principles of what he [President Obama] thought should be in the package -- that wasn't part of that," said Deputy Press Secretary Bill Burton.

That glitch aside, an agreement has emerged on how Congress should "stimulate the economy." The final bill will contain spending on states and localities, roads and bridges, unemployment benefits, "green" technologies, etc..

President Obama has vowed that no earmarks -- special appropriations to benefit particular congressmen -- will sully the final package. But in the Wonderland called Washington, things are never what they seem: "The result, as The Associated Press learned in interviews with more than a dozen lawmakers, lobbyists and state and local officials, is a shadowy lobbying effort that may make it difficult to discern how hundreds of billions in federal money will be parceled out".

What a surprise.

Even if the spending could give the economy a jolt, at what price? I don't mean the legislation's overt price tag. I mean the production lost because the money borrowed by the government won't be available for private investment aimed at satisfying consumers. Do we want politicians directing how scarce resources are used? I'd rather have those decisions made by entrepreneurs who must please consumers or go bankrupt.

It's perfectly clear that the recession is a license for politicians to do what they've wanted to do all along. All the usual checks on extravagance, weak as they are, have been washed away. Budgets? We'll worry about that later. Inflation? We'll worry about that later. After all, Keynes said: "In the long run we are all dead".

Keynes, at any rate, is dead, but we're stuck with his legacy of profligate, burdensome government. And now we are about to stick our children and grandchildren with even more -- intrusive government, more debt, higher taxes and price inflation.

We should be suspicious when politicians, economists and the media declare a "consensus" and marginalize dissent. President Obama says, "There is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help to jumpstart the economy."

That's not true. Last week, the Cato Institute ran a full-page newspaper ad signed by more than 200 economists, including Nobel laureates stating:

"We the undersigned do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance. More government spending by Hoover and Roosevelt did not pull the United States economy out of the Great Depression in the 1930s. More government spending did not solve Japan's 'lost decade' in the 1990s ... Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth."

Let's hear no more about "everyone" agreeing that politicians can spend the economy into recovery.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Chalk another one up for independent
libertarian thinking!!!

Great article, as always, Mr. Stossel.

Liberalism + Conservativsm = Bankruptcy, Imperialism, and Tyranny

Libertarianism + Austrian Economics = Golden Age

Economists?
"Last week, the Cato Institute ran a full-page newspaper ad signed by more than 200 economists, including Nobel laureates stating:"

You know, if we could get just HALF that many POLITICIANS to sign that ad --

-- or even a fourth, in the Senate --

But alas, tis not to be.

Where There is a Big Pot of Money . . .
the sharks will also be. Big pots of cash in Washington provide the perfect storm for a feeding frenzy. The headline should read: "Democrats Gone Wild!" in describing this so-called stimulus package.

And if government spending on infrastructure is considered a way to stimulate the economy, why is it that military spending is not? After all, wouldn't increased military spending accomplish the same thing? And wouldn't it be even better as there would be an immediate impact? To build any infrastructure of the magnitude being presented requires years of studies, engineering, etc. before it would go out to bid. Once a contractor is selected it would be another year before submittals would be approved. Yet military spending would tap into an immediate pipeline of people and businesses.

What am I missing here?

Stone Age Economics.
This write-up by John Stossel is good, about the same as all the others like it.

The economic problem for humans began when one caveman said to another caveman, "Oh, you don't have those pretty sea shells today? To trade for my spear points? Well, take the spear points anyway, and we'll meet later, when you have the sea shells."

First, humans invented debt. Immediately thereafter, they invented war.

Somehow, I don't see any turning back.

That's why generals will become the final arbiters of this society, as they have every other society.

Hopefully, they will be our generals.

what you are missing
is that it isnt about stimulus. it is about the coming permanent democratic party rule and looting of america. you are absolutely right about military spending being left out. there is a reason for that. military spending only costs once. it can be stopped at any time. social spending has a life of its own. give a beggar a government dollar, and the beggar is entitled to a dollar every week forever. that is the secret of social spending. it just keeps on taking, and the takers have to vote democrat. rip america.

"We Can't Spend Our Way to Prosperity"
Of course we can't! The only reason anyone is buying into this "stimulus" nonsense is the perpetuation of a group of myths:

1: "We've got to do something, even if it's wrong."
2: "Government can do things ordinary people can't."
3: "Government spending has a multiplier effect private-sector spending doesn't have." (Thank John Maynard Keynes for that one.)

Even the people pumping this bilge at us know it's entirely false. That's why the political and PR offensives for it have been so strident. When a lie is this obviously a lie, it must be pressed relentlessly, and with maximum force.

It's time we learned better...but it's begun to seem unlikely that we'll learn in time.

It's about re-election...
...and nothing else.Our representatives in Washington are professional politicians,and nothing...absolutely nothing...is as important as getting re-elected.Not War,not economics,not patriotism,NOTHING!GET RE-ELECTED!No other goal.And you know what? It works! Every time!

The first thing that comes to mind is "Term Limits".But who is it that has to approve term limits? Yep.The politicians! Go to the head of the class!If there is anything the professional politician knows,it's his constituents.So if the constituents are dumb,the politicians will be dumb.The short term for this is :"Democracy".

The Mob Will Turn
The masses are screaming for "something" to be done because everyone is scared and they don't understand the free market. The politicians know this and are taking advantage of it. The beast that is government doesn't care about anything but growing.

The solution is coming for our problem. What the politicians are doing to fix the economy will not work but will in fact make our situation worse. The same masses screaming "do something" now will then be screaming for the blood of those responsible for the mess. Well, when that happens, most of those in charge will be Democrats.

Anger driven by fear is an awful thing. It will be interesting to see whether the media will attempt to protect the Democrats from the wrath of the mob or whether in an attempt to save themselves will throw Obama, Nancy, Harry and the rest under a whole line of busses.

The Anthill Analogy
Who's better at building an anthill, a few hundred ants or a committee of Phd entymologists? If you live inside the beltway, you answer "the entymologists"? Why, aren't they smarter and better educated than the ants?

But even if they are, their fat fingers are no match for the nimbleness and instincts of the ants. No matter--Washington would have a lawn cleared the ants and put the entymologists to work. The result would be monstrosities that no ant would want to live in but that would be pronounced a "success" by the beltway crowd.

Obama shouldn't surprise anyone

How does someone defend a person with NO character?

Obama Character
---------------
1) The summation of all of Obama's decisions and actions (judgment).
Chose a 'Black Separatist Church' to raise his kids in.

2) Obama's personally held values.
Brother and Aunt living in poverty and Obama ignores them.

3) Obama's view on sancity of life.
Thinks 'Partial Birth Abortion is a right for women.

4) Obama's defense of the helpless.
Worked hard to deny any aid to babies dying in excruciating pain.

5) Obama's associations, allies and friends.
ACORN, Terrorists, Communists, Socialists.

6) Obama's honesty and personal integrity.
Lies about anything for political expediency.

Those Trying to Defend Barack Obama have no other recourse than to attack the messenger of the truth about him or change the subject.

Those Trying to Defend Barack Obama have no other recourse than to point to other peoples bad behaviour in hopes of mitigating the horrendous lack of empathy that Barack Obama has for defenseless little Babies.

Those Trying to Defend Barack Obama have no other recourse than to try and point to others 'Radical' alliances and friendships in hopes of changing the subject.

Those Trying to Defend Barack Obama have found there is absolutely NO way to defend Barack Obama so they use any ruse they can to get off subject or change the topic.

Attempting to defend Barack Obama is a 'fools' quest at the very best.



http://hisfacts.blogtownhall.com/2008/10/21/obamas_radical_ and_communist_alliances.thtml

http://hisfacts.blogtownhall.com/2008/08/30/babies_crying_i n_terror.thtml

Brilliant John
You never cease to impress me with your insight into economics and government, John. You've made it simple enough for anybody except the politicians to understand. Big government and big spending will not lead to prosperity. The founding father's understood this. And yet every year our government becomes more bloated and more burdensome. Now I believe that Obama and many others like him in their heart of hearts believe they're doing good. But they're human. They don't understand the complexities of the economy. If they did they would know not to try and dictate how money is spent. They would get out of the way and let people be free to spend as they please.

CATO recommends...
'Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.'

Solid recommendation. Reduction in the burden of government alone would be fabulous. Sadly the politicians heard, 'Lower tax refunds and a reduction in personal responsibility are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.' Politicians hear only what serves their interests. Will Americans finally wake up or will they continue to reject solid recommendations from the likes of CATO or Ron Paul? Only time will tell.

Worth Repeating

“It isn’t about stimulus.”
It is about the coming permanent
Socialist Democratic Party rule,
and the looting of America.

Of course spending won’t work to fix the economy.
It’s not meant to fix the economy.
They just lie and say it is.

It is about institutionalized voter fraud.
It is about political payoffs for election services rendered.
It is about our tax money paid out to enemies of our system.

You think the mob will turn when it fails?
They didn’t when the economy was deliberately trashed.
They were fooled into re-electing the ones who trashed it.

The Socialist cowboys have been a whoopin’ and a hollerin’
driving the herd - they don’t have to make sense, just noise.

When some of the herd sees the cliff ahead,
the Socialist cowboys will panic them all into a stampede.

The crazed herd will carry us all right over the Socialist cliff.

The cliff is just ahead- Can you see it?



John
"...Ask Paul Krugman and the other Keynesians. The danger, they say, lies in spending too little. Not to worry. The Senate will probably throw in more money..."

Keynes is proven right and Reaganism is proven wrong. Why should anyone listen to economists who were so very wrong?

We have one chance and one chance only
to get the message to this bunch of hacks that just rode a "wisp of smoke" coattail into power.

If you don't clean up your act there will be a revolution in less than two years. BANK ON IT!

Because of the pmm (Propaganda Media Machine) we know the dims don't get and very few Democrats do but the Republicans are paying attention.

And I think BO just found out the new has already worn off.

Hal, care to expound?
I can't wait. I am breathless with anticipation.

Don't understand how everyone was fooled
This was all predicted and was any number of mediums other than the pmm (Propaganda Media Machine) but yet people seem surprised that the anointed one is just another big spending dim waiting for the entrepreneurs to pull his cockles out of the fire.

indyconantidim
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 8:14 AM EST
We have one chance and one chance only
to get the message to this bunch of hacks that just rode a "wisp of smoke" coattail into power.

If you don't clean up your act there will be a revolution in less than two years. BANK ON IT!"

LMAO you are a fringe group. You want a revolution? Be very careful; you could get one. Oh don't dare call yourself a patriot now you silly person


indyconantidim
Reaganism failed completely and totally and now the remnants are sounding like Hooverism (there never was a very real difference). Face the facts. You are wrong and your day is over. No need to expound further than that. Geesh look around at all you wrought.

Hal.. Keynes WAS wrong and so are you
Read Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom. In it he PROVES using published gov't statistics on money supply, GSP, eetc that Keynian policies made the depression worse, not better.

And by the way... Friedman has NEVER been proven wrong.

Read, think, learn.




Deep Thought 42
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 8:27 AM EST
Hal.. Keynes WAS wrong and so are you
Read Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom. In it he PROVES using published gov't statistics on money supply, GSP, eetc that Keynian policies made the depression worse, not better."

No where Freidman's theories were tried did they work. The man is wrong and proven so

"...And by the way... Friedman has NEVER been proven wrong."

look around you - he has

"Read, think, learn."

excellent idea

Hal
Heavy D-I am still laughing over your latest missive. It would help your case if there were no facts available on both sides of the Keynes/Austrian School controvery. Unfortunately, the facts are there and the government has seen loss of revenues when taxes are raised and has seen boom times when taxes are decreased. Now don't launch into your typical lefty disinformation and start talking about Bush's deficits-they were caused by overspending on top of the higher income. Facts are a b!tch, eh Heavy D?

Missing reply
I saw for a few seconds a response from Hal claiming Friedman was wrong. It then disappeared.

I defy you to show the error in his analysis of the depression. Now, I don't mean a statement 'he was wrong', I mean make a logical and valid arguement based on facts that shows the fallacy of Friedman's analysis.

I defy you to... because you can't.

Having gone to college just a few miles from U of C when Friedman was there I witnessed numerous 'debates' between the 'Friemnanites' and the followers of Keynes and Samuelson. In every case the Keynsian arguement was based on a 'logical flow' of what should happen. It was never backed up by actual FACTS showing that things would happen that way. Friedman's arguements were based on analysis of FACTS.

AS one of my friends who studied far more economics than me said about Friedman 'I don't exactly worship the man, I am, however very fond of the ground upon which he walks'.

Hal
Now your post reappeared.

No where Freidman's theories were tried did they work. The man is wrong and proven so


Show me where is philosophy WHEN ACTUALLY TRIED has failed. Are yoy referring to the Reagan years when he was a top advisor and the economy recovered from the carter disaster? Or are you referring to the NIxon price controls that didn't work and were implemented AGAINST his advice? Or what?

Again please site specifics and facts, not blanket statements. Or would that take actual knowledge (which you apparently don't have).

It is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer that your arguements are of the "so's you mother" type.


Hal
Please answer the questions with facts and not inane talking points like "Keynes was proven right and Reaganism was proven wrong."

Your posts are like me saying HAL Donahue is wrong and I'm right. People here require substance. This isn't Huffpost

They say the proof is in the pudding, so show us the pudding.

CVN65
Hal doesn't need facts to prove his point. He only needs to repeat his claim over and over and over.

The MSM did it and Obama was elected, McCain/Palin defeated.

The Democrats in Congress did it, and Democrats were elected and re-elected in ever-greater numbers.

The extreme prosperity that followed the instituting of Reagan's policies are all negated by the current "crisis." Since it hasn't been proven (and trumpeted by the MSM), the current crisis must NOT have been caused in any way by Democrat spending or by Democrats forcing lenders to do foolish things. Therefore, it's all Reagan's fault. Res ipsa loquitur, in THIS case a not-rebuttable assumption, and no one has time for facts and statistics. Sure, Reagan's policies worked for 25 years, but look, here we are in recession yet again.

To the extent that it's NOT Reagan's fault, BUSH did it. Repeat that over and over again: BUSH DID IT. (Not enough regulation, obviously.)

stimulus is a farce
great article john,

the government is using the time honored spend and tax policies of the past. they believe that continuing the failed policies of the past need to be one-upped. spending and taxing at greater levels is their solution.

educating people that they need to take responsibility for themselves is a permanent way out of this malaise. teaching people to think for themselves is a slow process at first, but it will result in long term gains.

politics is transitory. we need to lead by example. we need to help kids to think for themselves. we need to teach people basic principles of economics. we need to do these things outside of government. it is a slow process but it will lead to long-term positive changes.

the government advocates force to achieve their goals. we need to advocate voluntary association to achieve our goals. we need to attract people to join in by offering them a helping hand, not a handout. their success will become their reward and can create a snowball effect.

"The Multiplier Effect"
i'd almost forgotten that ridiculous bit of bovine effluvia. yet another idea that only a politician could espouse with a straight face.

To Hal and all the lib gloats
The usual libnuts were augmented with a huge black turnout and a disgruntled electorate that paid more attention to the pmm (Propaganda Media Machine) than the facts on the ground. Namely that Pelosi, Reid, Frank and Dodd were just as culpable in the financial fiasco.

The revolution is right before your eyes and you brainmovedon/daily commies think you can "Jon Stewart" it away with a laugh better get a clue.

The people that carried Oblaba over the top are Democrats that thought they were getting a smart, savvy middle of the roader and got a "pig in the poke". Its only taken three months with Blogo, Rahm, Puff and the ACORN/union porkulus to get that across.

Thank you, BO. I thought it would take longer. Michael Steele get on Rush, Sean and Mark and then go to the lemmings at ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN and PBS and get this coordinated. The honeymoon is over. And it didn't even take a 100 days.

You see that's where you pseudo-intellects miss the boat. When people are hurting they won't answers not more BS. The dims have been about BS for eight years and now they're proving it.

Our economic system is failing...
because it is constructed upon the debt obligation. The FED, which doesn't have any money, creates money out of thin air and then charges the US government interest for this money.

Banks created money out of thin air when they overleveraged on loans. Some banks were loaning out $30 for every dollar they had on deposit.

The stock market is modeled upon the stocks sold by England to finance their wars in the 1800s. The USA turned to the stock market because it was the only financial instrument that could keep up with inflation caused by the FED and banks. However; stocks are still mostly risk with a small dividend for some.

Our financial system is failing because wages earned by workers are not enough to purchase all of the goods and services they are capable of providing. So people turn to credit to expand their purchasing power. But credit will eventually dry up.

Our financial system needs to be completely redefined. Social Credit is the only answer that supports private ownership and establishes proper value for our money based upon the value of all the wonderful homes, businesses, and public works our great country has created. That money would have real value not the ethereal value it has under the present financial system.

Check out this brief description of Social Credit. It is not socialism or communism. Go look for yourself. http://www.michaeljournal.org/bridger.htm

trulib
i think people have a pretty good idea of what the supply siders are all about. we just saw 8 years of it. what did we get? worse job creation in 60 years. economy in the tank. i don't blame people for wanting to try something different. when jimmy carters administration can create 3 times as many jobs in 4 years than dubya's can create in 8 then something is terribly wrong. supply side economics is the problem. krugmans' a pretty sharp economist so we're gonna try it his way for a while and see what happens.

Say it ain't so
Crumb, I thought that was what we all have been taught in the recent years. Credit cards are free, just return this pre-approved application in the mail and we will give you a credit card with a 5,000 dollar limit.
Hey, you can afford it just sign on the dotted line. Well, lets see what we can do for you, maybe stretch it out over a longer period.
Now they tell us, we will give you this bail out money, tax break, refund, however you must go out and spend it. Will keep the economy going they say. Must have the money in circulation, too many businesses/banks going bust. Must make more money so we can give the banks more to give more to the people. Then they tell us that the bailout will take some time to implement however it is dire need and Feb 16 is the DEADLINE. God knows what will occur if we do not get the money.
It goes on and on. And guess what, people believe it. Not surprising, just human nature to want what the Joneses have.
The problem with this now. There is no circle within the country. The circle was broken when the US allowed all the foreign goods into the country which are made at a wage of two to three dollars a day. People fell for it, wanted 20 to 30 dollars an hour in wage however. Where does that come out balanced? It don't.


Sign of the times?
It was only a few weeks ago that we were told: without the passage of this $700B spending bill, the United States would close operations on Tuesday. It passed. Now how to spend it? Let's see, uhm, uh, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND. Hope and change is evolving into a three-ring circus.

Unbelievable Idea by "Don Juan":
"There is no magic bullet, except perhaps to confiscate the excess wealth obtained and redistribute it to those who otherwise would have gotten their fair share, but for the market's inefficiencies."
-----

Okay, "Don". Who determines what is "excess" and what is the amount of the "fair share"?

What about the Kennedy millions? Are you going to confiscate their wealth, too? Barbra Streisand's? Steven Spielberg's?

If YOU want to live under socialism, might I suggest France? Cuba?

I'm not sure you can recover from your version of liberalism, Don. Especially if you are over age 30.

Wow...

Don Juan
Speaking for all Bently Builders, I say the rich DO need another Bently.


What do you expect?
When you have a government ran by the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barney Frank, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Arnold Schwartzenneger..etc? They are all very smart politicans, but very stupid people. If you put each one of them into the private sector, they couldn't find a job cleaning toilets. But they're running our country(into the ground)? What do you expect? I expect it to get a lot worse before it gets any better. Doophus still has 1,445 days left in the White House. We should be plenty bankrupt(and in shackles) by then. Good luck everyone.

Primus45
You think you've heard it all...and then another liberal opens their mouth.

Don Juan
Thanks for doing what Hal Donahue can't. The problem I see with what is going on now is the money is going right back to the rich, special interest and other idiotic groups that won't stimulate anything. If you took that money and gave it to every man, women and child in the U.S (legal citizens) it would equate to about $2700.00 per person. A family of four would have $10,800.00 in stimulus to spend on their needs. That will spread to and stimulate virtually every part of the economy. Since only 5% of the population is "rich" the other 95% will get their peice of the pie as well.

Though it goes against my values to give to the people who habitually feed at the teat of the government even they will get this money, but they will also spend it faster than the government.

Don Juan
I really can't agree with you confiscating wealth from the people be they rich or poor. That is ludicrous and unconstitutional. I'm just talking about money the government already has robbed from us. You are talking about communism and that hasn't worked anywhere it has been tried.

Don Juan...
Libs always argue the rich are greedy and only want more. But then we are to believe that if they weren't being taxed, they would suddenly stop wanting more? No, they would redirect the "windfall" wealth back into getting more wealth. They are greedy, after all. And the best way to get more wealth, after you have reached some threshold, is leverage that wealth by pouring it back into businesses that create wealth. Sure, there will always be tempting cons like Madoff and real estate derivatives that promise a big return, but especially in the aftermath of the recent problems, those who "receive windfall tax breaks" will be more likely to do the due diligence to make sure their investments go into something that is understandable and generates real wealth.

The Compromise
"Listen my children and you shall hear."

"The solutiion is coming, the solution is coming!"

Not one government dollar will be spent unless there is a private income as a result. No more civil jobs. The federal government will take existing civil servants and create a private company management team (computer data managers). For every job created there will be a two year moratorium on taxes. No corporate and no capital gains and a major break for every employee(not the pittance that BO offered in the campaign) for life.

If your an existing company and want in you need to show your needs and plans. If you want to create one show your forecast and potential employee base. No union dues allowed. All owners salaries will be subject to review. Everyone that goes into the program will have to go into one specific health insurance program to be determined from open bidding.

Another bureaucracy you say? The government managers will post all government funds coming in and all funds going out, online. Included will be a careers page for all the businesses participating.


TOO MUCH STIMULATION GOIN' ON

.....Keep your knees together and don't pick up the soap Washington has its zipper down .....COLOSSUS


True then, still true today:

"No poor man has ever hired another poor man".

This isn't all that complicated...

Obama and the Apron

The Obama “stimulus” bill reminds me of a story I heard in grade school:

A poor old woman bought a new apron but once she got home she discovered that it was too short. At first she was sad but then she had a brilliant idea. She would cut two inches of fabric from the top of the apron and sew it to the bottom to make it longer. She cut up the apron, re-sewed it and tried it on, only to find that it was still the exact same size and all her efforts had been wasted.

Little did my teacher know back then that her simple story would provide the perfect analogy to Obama’s stimulus plan.

Hal
By your logic Bush should have had the best economy ever

Through The Looking Glass
Obama takes office with a $1.2 trillion deficit for this year already on the books. Tacked on, I might add, to 7 years of $500 billion record deficits. And, he wants to add another $820 or $900 Billion or whatever.

But, the GOP and the Democrats don't agree. The Democrats want about 1/3 or a little more to be tax cuts and the rest to be spending, and the GOP tells us that they want it to be pretty much all tax cuts and the rest some form of mortgage relief, such as a $150,000 tax credit for 1st time homebuyers and 4% 30 year interest. The Democrats will have the same problem the government had in Iraq in the first few years trying to rebuild that country - except it will be multiplied by 10. (Try, Accountability and Fraud). The GOP, on the other hand, will likely have trouble finding many first time homebuyers given that 40% of the public doesn't pay federal tax, most people who do already own homes, and many of those people who might be first time home buyers no longer are - because they got subprime loans which they never should have got which have now been foreclosed on (and I can't imagine too many banks being excited about loaning them money for a few years).

Ah - but don't you love it? And as far as the so called recovery - with or without "stimulus". Would someone tell me why I should believe that those predicting such today will be any more correct about a "recovery" than they were about the health of the economy for the last 4 years (they were wrong - remember?).

After all, a good part of that "healthy" economy came from "consumer" spending based first on inflated stocks, and then inflated housing. And without that "inflated money", unemployment would not have been 4% to 5% - it would've been 7% to 8%.

I get it. The "New" healthy economy and recovery will be 7% unemployment - which, after all, will be better than the 9% to 10% we're heading for.

JamesB
There in lies the problem...trying to connect logic and Hal together in the same sentence.


Primus54
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 10:14 AM EST
True then, still true today:

"No poor man has ever hired another poor man".

This isn't all that complicated..."

LMAO and very untrue one! Examples Bill Gates starting up or, one you may understand better, an owner operator truck driver sees a chance to scrape it together and buy two trucks. You are an elitist. We do not need some "rich" man or woman to create jobs. Strange as it may seem to you conservatives, we can work together and proper without some "leader/strong man" Stop worshiping one and be one

Just a happy drive bye

Don Juan

You have GOT to be kidding me!

Yes... in a free market, capitalist society, the ultimate consumer is the "boss", but it takes many "bosses" to pay the wage of one worker.

The next time you go into Walmart, why don't you "hire" the cashier - give him/her a living wage, and be sure to pay your employer taxes! (or - you could SKIP paying them and be an Obama cabinet appointment).

You should quit while you are behind, moonbat.

All too easy...

Don Juan...
The problem is that some believe that a few over-educated, self-interested politicians and bureaucrats beholden to special interests for their livelihood and perks will be capable, let alone motivated to find the optimum. Funny thing is, that is exactly what prices in a free market do. They tell us the sweet spot.

Hal "LMAO©" Donahue:

I see you are as big an economic idiot as Don Juan.

Did I write that it takes a "rich man" to hire someone?

No... I said "poor men" don't hire people.

I have been an employee of and employer of those decidedly middle class, many of whom joined the 5 percenters because of free market capitalism.

In other words, achievement of the American Dream.

Or, as EX-Congressman Dick Gebhart would call: "Winners of life's lottery."

Oh, Hal... it is called "drive-by" - NOT "bye".

All those college dollars gone to waste...

Spending Our Way to Slavery
It sure takes a long time to reach critical mass consensus on the total bogus concept of "stimulus spending" and financial bailouts as orchestrated by the crooks in government.

I posted this four months ago:
Questions, rhetorical questions: Will the taxpayer, who is being saddled so far with a mindboggling 8.5 trillion dollar bailout ever get reimbursed? If so, how? The way I understand it so far is that money is being showered on these greedy incompetents/crooks on Wall Street with little assurance that we’ll recoup anything. I bet government can’t even track and account, accurately if at all, where the moneys are going and for what. Even if moneys will be repaid, it will be to the U.S. Treasury and, to my knowledge, no provisions in the bailout legislation addresses how the moneys returned to the treasury will be repatriated back to the taxpayer. What I strongly suspect will happen is that if by a miracle any moneys flows back into government coffers the temptation by the politico thieves will be to use the moneys to fund their programs or as a slush fund to bail out some other government caused disaster (like they already do with Social Security) without any of it ever returned to the originator, the taxpayer. It all smacks of an advanced taxing scheme without representation. I feel the shackles being clapped on my ankles and wrists already!

The “recovery plan” (aka, bailout) and the “stimulus package” (aka, mega load of garbage) is nothing less than an advanced taxing scheme without representation.

Primus54
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 11:08 AM EST
Hal "LMAO©" Donahue:

I see you are as big an economic idiot as Don Juan.

Did I write that it takes a "rich man" to hire someone?

No... I said "poor men" don't hire people."

I said poor people do hire people

"I have been an employee of and employer of those decidedly middle class, many of whom joined the 5 percenters because of free market capitalism...In other words, achievement of the American Dream."

the other 95% are rubbish? Is this what you are saying?

"...Oh, Hal... it is called "drive-by" - NOT "bye"..."

ahhh gee down to spelling corrections LOL

"...All those college dollars gone to waste..."

nope they served me well

How About Oil
Why isn't anyone, even Gov Palin, mentioning more drilling and refineries? The government doesn't have to spend anything to open ANWR, or the OCS. The oil companies, grown too rich by the standards of some, would spend the money to explore, drill, transport and refine. THEY would be injecting capital into the economy, and also reducing our reliance on foreign sources of oil. If, in the mean time, we can produce reliable, green technologies to replace, or reduce the need for oil, it's the oil companies that have taken the risk, not the taxpayer. Does gas HAVE to be $4 a gallon before we discuss this again? Can't we cut the problem off at the pass instead of waiting for foreign suppliers or speculators to do further damage to our economy?

We couldn't act more like children...
...if we tried.

We have to be the laughing-stock of the world. A bunch of overgrown children playing a game of: "Stimulus". Overgrown kids who couldn't sell hot dogs for a profit, lecturing us about how money should be spent. And Curious George running around acting like the President...of a high school student council.


O.
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 11:14 AM EST
Spending Our Way to Slavery
"The “recovery plan” (aka, bailout) and the “stimulus package” (aka, mega load of garbage) is nothing less than an advanced taxing scheme without representation."

Spoken by a person who still has a job?

esTo The Winner Go The Spoils
The Democrats won,not fair and square,but nevertheless,they are in power,so they get to rule.

We will see what they do with what they have inherited. The last two years after they gained control in congress,has been a disaster.

They had Bush to blame then. He is no longer there and can be made a scapegate no more. They will have to take responsibility for their own failures.

They bought it....they own it.


Relevance of Irrelevance

Non professional problem solvers always try to determine the cause of the problem, instead of focusing on what was to be accomplished in the first place.

This sounds like pure and utter nonsense to the non professional problem solver.

Focusing on what is relevant to what is to be accomplished, allows one to strip away that which is irrelevant from the original purpose or mission.

Wisdom is knowing what to ignore and what to pursue.

Irrelevant things to the purpose or mission, can then be examined to determine the inductive (rather than deductive) logic used in causing the current problem.

Barack Obama's 'Stimulus Package' should be examined on relevancy, rather than what is irrelevant to the 'Stimulus Package' solution.

The irrelevant factors of the Barack Obama 'Stimulus Package' are, why the 'Stimulus Package' was needed in the first place or 'Who' or 'What' caused the problem.

The purpose of the Barack Obama 'Stimulus Package', is too create or restore jobs, to bring fiscal health back to America and to 'Jump Start' American economy.

The essence of the Barack Obama 'Stimulus Package' is borrowing, mortgaging, charging and increasing debt by spending.

Further, the focus of this Barack Obama 'Stimulus Package' is directed toward those Companies and individuals receiving those funds, that have a track record of failure and incompetency.

The Barack Obama 'Stimulus Package' shows the total incompetency of Barack Obama and his approach to problem solving.



Pat
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 11:17 AM EST
How About Oil
Why isn't anyone, even Gov Palin, mentioning more drilling and refineries?.."

Happy to tell you why. Oil is too cheap now to make it economical. That always was and is a problem with it. But of course you wouldn't know that. It is more than a buzz word and you had no talking point

"... Does gas HAVE to be $4 a gallon before we discuss this again?.."

certainly over $3

"...Can't we cut the problem off at the pass instead of waiting for foreign suppliers or speculators to do further damage to our economy?"

LOL Perfect point but NOT with a free market. It costs too much to compete in a free market. You buy the cheapest sell at the most dear. Collateral damage like destroyed roads water etc don't matter.

Once again, Hal
You wrote:
"the other 95% are rubbish? Is this what you are saying?"
-----

As Ronnie said to Jimmy, "There you go again".

No Hal, the other 95% are not rubbish (like most of your comments). I'm merely pointing out that the American Dream is still alive and well - but it is danger of the ideas of liberals such as "Don Juan" were to ever become the norm.

And I repeat, poor men do not hire people.

If you can provide some definitive proof otherwise (other than your decidedly flawed opinions), I'd be happy to recant.

I won't hold my breath...

rolling the dice
The Democrats think their "stimulus" is a no-fail solution because they are the enlightened party and know what's best. Rahm Emanuel said it best, "a crisis is a terrible thing to waste".

I'm thinking that if the government
realy wanted to "fix the economy," they would first cut spending. The federal government wastes so much money for no good reason e.g. ED Dept., Energy Dept., Commerce Dept., NEA, NEH, most federal employees. They should balance their budget then cut more to start paying off the debt just like people and businesses have to. Then they need to address the coming entitlement crises and be honest with those under 50 and tell them they won't be getting the SS and medicare they've been promised and paid for.

The American people can do their part by getting out of debt and saving.

STIMULUS PAYMENT
This year taxpayers will receive an economic stimulus payment. This is a very exciting new program that I will explain using the A & A format.
Q. What is a economic stimulus payment?
A. It is money that the government will send to taxpayers.

Q. Where will the government get this money?
A. From the taxpayers.

Q. The governement is going to give back the money I paid?
A. A smidgen.

Q. What is the purpose of this stimulus payment?
A. The plan is that you will use this money to purchase a high-defininition television set, thus stimulating the economy.

Q. But, isn't that stimululating the economy of China?
A. Shut Up.

To assist you in spending your stimulus payment, please remember:
If you buy gasoline the money will go to Saudi Arabia.
If you buy a computer, the money will go to India.
If you buy a car, the money will go to Japan.
If you spend the money at Wal-Mart the money will go to China.
If you spend the money on fruit, vegetables, flowers, the money will go to Mexico, Honduras or Colombia. (unless you buy organic)
If you purchase crap, your money will go to Taiwan.

To buy American, go to a baseball game, get a tatoo, buy domestic beer, and dance the night away at your local clubs.

Or go global and enjoy your stimulus payment.


Redlac et al

Why don't you talk about the merits of the Barack Obama 'Stimulus Plan' rather than why Obama proposed the plan.

Have you applied the core of the Obama plan to your own economic future?

Hal Donahue et al

Why don't you talk about the merits of the Barack Obama 'Stimulus Plan' rather than why Obama proposed the plan.

Have you applied the core of the Obama plan to your own economic future?

I'm a little worried about the competenc
at the top of our government. Obama runs away to read to school children because he's having a bad day and Pelosi said 500 million Americans a month will lose their jobs unless the stimulus is passed. Do we think the botox has leaked through to her brain?

Don Juan et al

Why don't you talk about the merits of the Barack Obama 'Stimulus Plan' rather than why Obama proposed the plan.

Have you applied the core of the Obama plan to your own economic future?

THIS JUST IN!!!!!!!

Nancy Pilosi just announced that foe every month we fail to pass the Obama stimulus package, 500,000,000 people will lose their jobs!!!!

MY GOD!!!! EVERYBODY'S GOING TO LOSE THEIR JOBS BY VALENTINE"S DAY!!!!!!!

retired geek
as long as you want to talk reality let us be real.

first of all, as it stands, this is not obama's stimulus plan, this is pelosi's.

not only did obama have the birth control part of the plan pulled but he met with senate and house leaders in the oval office and told them to remove other parts of it.

in your obsession with obama at least stick to the facts.

we don't know what the final bill will look like.

for example, i really like lamarr alexanders amendment to allow ALL homeowners to re-finance their mortgages at 4.2-4.5% guaranteed by the feds.

you say this

"The essence of the Barack Obama 'Stimulus Package' is borrowing, mortgaging, charging and increasing debt by spending."

if i am not mistaken and i am not, isn't that what the republicans and bush did for 6 years?
did you complain about bush and the republican congress doing it also?


then you say this

"Further, the focus of this Barack Obama 'Stimulus Package' is directed toward those Companies and individuals receiving those funds, that have a track record of failure and incompetency."

again you are being disingenuous.
please the the companies and individuals receiveing those funds.

now it may come to pass that you may not like where the funds go but since the bill has not even passed the senate and gone to conference there is no way of knowing where them money is going, hence, you are simply being nonsensical.

i respect your honesty on most things but this time you are way over the top.



Stossel: The Cato Institute?
The political axe grinders from the Cato Institute are against any government involvement in the economy? Wow, what a shock!

So, your apparent solution is to do nothing and wait for the depression to lift itself? If I remember correctly, all of the attacks on FDR say his economic intervention did nothing to alleviate the great depression and he needed WW II to bring the country out of the economic malaise. The ensuing violence cost how many lives? This is your solution to ending the depression. and it is better than throwing money at the problem? 100 million dead and countries devastated?

As long as you, you kids, and all the other people who think an economic stimulus is wrong are one the front lines of the coming necessary conflict, I have no problem with no economic stimulus.

Yes we can
Spend our way to prosperity and the Federal Reserve will gladly print up the counterfeit and loan it to us AT INTEREST, no less, to prove it. We should be such fools!

Hal makes a point...
... or at least an observation.

["...Can't we cut the problem off at the pass instead of waiting for foreign suppliers or speculators to do further damage to our economy?"

LOL Perfect point but NOT with a free market. It costs too much to compete in a free market. You buy the cheapest sell at the most dear. Collateral damage like destroyed roads water etc don't matter]

You are getting close. In a free market, you try to buy cheap and sell dear, but you are always competing with other buyers and sellers and so the price gravitates to the point that best serves everybody's wants. Mistakes are obviously made, but nobody goes into business trying to lose money except politicians with their grand government run schemes. So if there is no chance of earning a profit, why risk doing something. Some will have a longer term vision than others, but there is no moral or rational reason to dictate that anybody assume the risks of predicting the future.

Things like roads and water are only destroyed, abused, or over used when they are publicly owned. Ever hear of the "tragedy of the Commons"? The answer is not to transfer ownership and responsibility to the government, but to figure out a way to carve up property rights. An owner of a road or water rights is going to be a lot better steward than some faceless bureaucratic agency. And for those things which truly are difficult to carve up, like air quality, instead of regulating emissions, businesses should be required negotiate an acceptable level of nuisance with those affected.

A freer market will always be a better solution than government involvement. Even the most benign government official or agency cannot know as much as everybody collectively and as we have seen, no government is benign.

BHL

What IS it with you moonbats?

The only two solutions to this mess are either an FDR-like government intervention or a world war???

Who the heck is suggesting a world war?


Where DO you get your drugs, BHL?

Do you know?
We have a HUGE amount of oil,right here in the Dakotas,the amount is staggering! So is our amount of coal.Lots of good ideas for our economy right there! What liberals don't seem able to admit,is that once people have jobs,with a purpose,for a profit,there's money to go around,and whole towns pop up around where the jobs are,and the people who live and work there are proud to see prosperity grow for everyone.It's a win-win situation.It doesn't take a college degree to figure that out. But try to figure out government regulations and entitlements and derivitives,etc,etc,...

Primus54
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 11:31 AM EST
....And I repeat, poor men do not hire people."

yes they do all the time I gave you one example Bill Gates' start up and I gave you a specific general example. It is fairly common in America for poor people to bet it all on starting a company even their homes. This is the American dream and this is the dream your failed philosophy crashed. We need jobs and we need them now.



LuLu
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 11:36 AM EST
I'm thinking that if the government
realy wanted to "fix the economy," ..."

Tried before in almost the same words and was called Hooverism. It was a massive failure

YES!!
"if i am not mistaken and i am not, isn't that what the republicans and bush did for 6 years?
did you complain about bush and the republican congress doing it also?"

YES!!! I've been screaming for the last thirty plus years, both pre-internet in print, and here on TH and elsewhere, that the government is spending this country into bankruptcy! Don't you people listen? Why don't you morons understand that it is no more fiscally responsible for The Messiah to do it than Dopey George?



Economic spendulus
It's a new venereal disease which will shortly become an epidemic because it's easily passed from liberal to liberal, and unfortunately also to conservatives, whether or not there's personal contact.

Primus
There is no reason for a depression to end. The dark ages are my example. Read Keynes critique of the depression. Doing something is better than nothing.


BUMPER STICKER
I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that said, "Yes we did, Obama and Biden 2008".

When the economy has really tanked, when we have higher inflation and more taxes, the saber rattling increases, when Iran new space program threatens us even more, & gasoline returns to $5.00 per gallon, will they continue with that bumper sticker. It should then read: "Yes we did all this! Obama & Biden 2009".




Hal...
Don't be obtuse. Gates had the idea and started the company and in doing so hired people. But he didn't use his money at first. He got somebody to loan him the money or give him an advance on an idea. It was somebody or some company with wealth and a willingness to risk it on a new venture. Some entrepreneurs do use their own money saved up during earlier times or may just received as an inheritance or gift, or prize. And they are indeed "wealthy" before they start hiring. In other cases where venture capital is invested, the "idea man" or entrepreneur is a proxy for wealth. The wealth could come from a family memmber or a perfect stranger, but it is wealth put at risk to hire somebody else.

Hal

You are an idiot...

Bill Gates did not "hire" anyone until he could afford to pay their wages - but he did manage to get people to "invest" time and money betting on his dreams.

Try paying the grocery bill with someone's "dream", Hal.

I could hock all I own to start (another) business tomorrow, but if I "hire" people and have no money to give them on payday - guess what?

I repeat - you are an idiot.

FeedFwd
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 11:55 AM EST
Hal makes a point...
... or at least an observation.

["...Can't we cut the problem off at the pass instead of waiting for foreign suppliers or speculators to do further damage to our economy?"

LOL Perfect point but NOT with a free market. It costs too much to compete in a free market. You buy the cheapest sell at the most dear. Collateral damage like destroyed roads water etc don't matter]
....So if there is no chance of earning a profit, why risk doing something. Some will have a longer term vision than others, but there is no moral or rational reason to dictate that anybody assume the risks of predicting the future."

wrong destabilizing the political world by being in thrall to MS despots and Far Eastern regimes have costs unforeseen. This is where you unrestricted market people crash. The markets by definition are short term mechanisms. Beyond a doubt the best market solution is to consume massive amounts of foreign energy while devaluing our currency. At some point our society collapses or is simply shut down by with holding energy supplies. It is like everyone saying FDR was wrong and not looking at the social unrest in this nation. Your conservatism has transformed the nation from THE world leader in nearly every area of endeavor to barely A leader. There are costs that cannot be incorporated into an unregulated free market and guess what we are encountering them now. Best thing you can do is fess up and help solve the challenges your failed philosophy created.

".... businesses should be required negotiate an acceptable level of nuisance with those affected."

REQUIRED???? Only those faceless bureaucrats can do that. Guess what we are the government; we own the commons and under your tutelage we forgot that

Hal Donahue

Hal, you know what the most amusing thing is about you?

Since you can't seem to grasp the complex, you try to make the simple complex.

FeedFwd
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 12:16 PM EST
Hal...
Don't be obtuse. Gates had the idea and started the company and in doing so hired people. But he didn't use his money at first. He got somebody to loan him the money or give him an advance on an idea..."

Yes but the operative word here is loan "him" it was him not some company. He invested more than he had to make a go of it and laid it all on the line. That is a poor man.

"... It was somebody or some company with wealth and a willingness to risk it on a new venture..."

not until he had all his skin in the game. Go check. You do not invest in a company unless the "owner" has his all in it. If you do you are called a "duck".

"...In other cases where venture capital is invested, the "idea man" or entrepreneur is a proxy for wealth. The wealth could come from a family memmber or a perfect stranger, but it is wealth put at risk to hire somebody else..."

You are incredibly naive. That is not at all "how reality works"

a little fact based opinion
2:00 a.m. February 1, 2009


as politicians on Capitol Hill debate how much money to pour into the latest stimulus package, they may take heart from the findings of a recent study from the University of California San Diego, which suggests that government spending programs can be very useful in revitalizing the economy.

In a year-old study now being updated to reflect the ongoing economic crisis, UCSD economist Valerie Ramey took a look at government spending programs from the Eisenhower era through the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Her conclusion: For every $1 the government spent, it generated an average of $1.40 in economic growth.

“Raising spending stimulates the economy,” Ramey said. “On average, government spending raises the gross domestic product and raises employment, although it sometimes leads to a small decrease in consumer spending, as consumers find themselves in competition with the government.”

In comparison, she said, tax cuts and rebates do little to immediately jolt the economy, though well-designed tax cuts can have a positive long-term effect.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/01/1b1dean1 85149-government-spending-tool-revive-econ/?uniontrib

-----------------------------------------
my conservative friends


please explain how tax cuts will stimulate the economy and start job creation.

i run a small business. i have survived the bush recession but have used about 50%of my cash reserve.

if i get a tax credit for my business i will not expand, i will not hire more, i will replace my cash reserve.

every businessman in my local chamber of commerce says the same thing.

will target or home depot hire back the thousands they have laid off if they get a tax cut.

no way.

now long term some tax cuts may help but right now in this economy it is simply a fantasy and empty rhetoric.


Bob
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 12:15 PM EST
....When the economy has really tanked, when we have higher inflation and more taxes, the saber rattling increases, when Iran new space program threatens us even more, & gasoline returns to $5.00 per gallon, ..."

Is this what you want for America? If we do nothing, it is exactly what you will get

Primus54
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 12:17 PM EST
...Bill Gates did not "hire" anyone until he could afford to pay their wages - but he did manage to get people to "invest" time and money betting on his dreams.

Try paying the grocery bill with someone's "dream", Hal."

you pay them out of loans silly man. Are you certain you started businesses with actual employees? I mean start ups from scratch? It doesn't sound like it

"...I could hock all I own to start (another) business tomorrow, but if I "hire" people and have no money to give them on payday - guess what?..."

some company if you don't have employees?

"I repeat - you are an idiot."

yet I am the guy who was a corporate exec and successfully turned around companies with as few as ten employees

Christianlib

You're a funny man.

Let me get this straight. You use a government sponsored, year-long "study" by some functionally anonymous academic "economist" as your argument for Obama's gigantic pork bill?

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Hal "LMAO©" Donahue opines:
"You are incredibly naive. That is not at all "how reality works""
-----

Ha, ha, ha, ha...

Start a business, Hal. Then come back and talk to us about "reality".

And for every "Bill Gates" success stories, there are thousands of start-up businesses that don't last a year.

You are beyond naive - you are completely delusional.

Analysis
This is another fine article by John Stossel.

Mr. Keynes is quite respected, and Mr. Krugman now has a Nobel Prize. Why? Their theories don't seem to me to pass the common sense test. It also seems that there are more histoical examples to disprove their theories than to prove them.

Has anyone analytically shown flaws in their theories?

No the best minds
I think this stimulus spending bill illustrates perfectly this quote by the great Ronald Reagan:

"The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would hire them away."

Primus54
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 12:56 PM EST
Hal "LMAO©" Donahue opines:
"You are incredibly naive. That is not at all "how reality works""
-----

Ha, ha, ha, ha...

Start a business, Hal. Then come back and talk to us about "reality"."

seen it, done it and have the tee shirt. That is why I have the luxury of doing community service bringing the light to the great unwashed here (wink) LOL

"...And for every "Bill Gates" success stories, there are thousands of start-up businesses that don't last a year..."

yes there are and many of those folks lose everything and often even have to file but guess what they were in the ring and are very likely to go back into the ring while you folks stand and play it safe

"...You are beyond naive - you are completely delusional."

Don't like reality huh?

Kathryn (click for Reagan Conservative
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 1:01 PM EST
No the best minds
I think this stimulus spending bill illustrates perfectly this quote by the great Ronald Reagan:

"The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would hire them away.".."

LMAO if he was correct we would not be in this crash and economic disaster

Christianlib

Government does not creat wealth. Government is overhead - what in the business world we call indirect labor.

Government, at all levels, in fact costs every man, woman and child in this nation well over $14,000 each year. That's $56,000 per year per family of four.

Government is bloated, inefficient, corrupt, redundent and ineffective in their stated goals. for every dollar the government confiscates from its citizens, only $0.20 actually provides the services for which the dollar is spent. Consider that the $3.4 trillion budget provides only $680 Billion in services, a huge portinon of which is pork and makework.

Hal "LMAO©" Donahue responds:
"yet I am the guy who was a corporate exec and successfully turned around companies with as few as ten employees"
-----

Judging by your obvious lack of business sense - your "bio" as a successful business executive is just as suspect as your military resume.

I have a clue for you, Hal. "Poor" people - defined as people without funds - DO NOT get loans except for perhaps "family" or "friend" loans - or giving away a large portion of the company to venture capitalists, assuming they can attract "believers" to their idea.

You can twist and turn this however you want, but if I'm looking for a job to buy MY groceries, I'm going to seek a job with a company or person who can demonstrate they can meet their payroll today and tomorrow - not from the guy living in government housing who can't pay his electric bill.


bob c
now you may laugh at my source but at least she has studied it and has produced facts.

where is your study and facts that support an opposing point of view.

it is fine to give opinions but we have to make decisions based on facts not republican dogma.

lets talk about reagan.

for all his talk about cutting taxes, he later had to raise taxes.

your philosphy sounds good on paper but i have yet to see any statistical proof that tax cuts stimulate the economy.

Hal Donahue

"LMAO if he was correct we would not be in this crash and economic disaster"

Let's see. Obama thinks there are (more than) 57 states in the union. Pilosi thinks there are more than 500 million people in the United States. HRC imagines herself under sniper fire. John Kerry imagines himself in Cambodia on Christmas day. Ted Kennedy drives off a bridge and kills a woman and then slithers back to his hotel room for 12 hours to consult his handlers on how best to spin his vehicular homicide. Bill Clinton diddling a girl young enough to be his granddaughter in the White House, Chuck Rangle, Tim Geithner, Tom Daschel, William Jefferson, and a long list of other Democrat and Republican scumbags. These are our best and brightest?

I do hope the weather's nice in your little fantasy world.

Hal
if we put preparation h on you will you go away...that is what you do with a pain in the @$$ right?

sign the petition
The $819 billion (and growing*) so-called stimulus package rests on the notion that American consumers are not spending enough money now, so the Federal government is going to do the spending for us. Call me a cynic, but I believe that if the Feds would just let us keep more of our own money, more than a few of us would be willing to make the necessary sacrifice, and buy some things.

Don’t be duped, like the taxpayers were when we were sold on the $700B bank bailout, a package that was supposed to relieve banks of “troubled assets,” but which instead resulted in government ownership of most of the country’s largest banks.

Visit the site below and sign the petition opposing the so-called stimulus.

You can fight back today by visiting http://www.NoStimulus.com and joining the growing army of taxpayers saying NO by signing Americans for Prosperity’s petition to stop this disastrous trillion-dollar debt scheme, known as the “Stimulus Package.”
It is critical that we send a loud and clear message to DC politicians that ordinary citizens simply cannot afford the crushing burden and devastating consequences of this initiative.
Please act now to make your voice heard -- and encourage your friends and family to do the same -- by signing AFP’s petition at http://www.NoStimulus.com.


* $819B equals more than $2,500.00 per man, woman and child in this country. It equals $5,500.00 per taxpayer. What could you do with $5,500.00?

Hal "LMAO©" Donahue responds:
"seen it, done it and have the tee shirt. That is why I have the luxury of doing community service bringing the light to the great unwashed here (wink) LOL"
-----

Sorry Hal. Doesn't add up.

It is far more likely you are a retiree living off your Air Force and street-cop pensions.

I've seen your abode...

Christianlib

Listen, first of all, I'm not a Republican. There's no need to be insulting.

Second of all, I can't believe you're that dense. It doesn't take a genious to understand that government produces nothing. Anything spent by the government first has to be taken out of the economy in the form of taxes. 100% of taxes returns 20% of services. In other words, to provide a welfare recipient a check for $500, it takes $2500 in taxes.

How does that "stimulate" anything but more government taxation and spending?

Hal...
I'll stand pat on Primus54's adequate responses. But this is an exception from your 12:24 post:

[".... businesses should be required negotiate an acceptable level of nuisance with those affected."

REQUIRED???? Only those faceless bureaucrats can do that. Guess what we are the government; we own the commons and under your tutelage we forgot that]

Nothing forgotten... In this case, we don't need faceless bureaucrats. We require tort law. Now I will admit that there is a need for improvement with tort law. But the threat of lawsuit as a nuisance with common law based expectations for penalties will encourage (perhaps require was too strong a word) businesses to negotiate an acceptable compensation agreement ahead of the fact. And by settling ahead of time, both the offender and the offended can kill the deal if they can't reach an agreement forcing the offender to go elsewhere. Voluntarily!

economics ain't sex...
Stimulation in an economic sense can be positive or negative. As BobC notes, for the government to stimulate somebody into spending, they must first destimulate somebody else. And the net result is actually negative. As somebody else noted, politicians won't even give you a kiss afterwards.

FeedFwd

Well said.

FeedFwd

Ditto what Bob_C wrote...

The same argument from the left
"There is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help to jumpstart the economy."
They said the same thing about global warming several years ago in order to try to stop debate and quell dissent. These statements have the same purpose for the stimulus package. It is all about trying to convince the unwashed masses that there is no question that the government needs to intervene.
I say, "Liar, liar pants on fire!" Giving money to every left wing lobby and supporter is not stimulus except to that group's bottom line. You want to stimulate the economy. Declare a tax free quarter for both individuals and businesses. That provides about a 25% increase in spendable capital that can go toward paying off debt. Don't give the money to the banks; give the money to the people that owe the banks. When loans are paid off, the banks crisis goes away. Keep gasoline from going back up to $4 / gallon by building more refineries to open that bottleneck and drill more oil domestically to reduce or dependence on foreign oil.
This stimulus is nothing but a spending spree by the Democrats to pay back their supporters for spending over $100 million dollars to elect their messiah.

Bob_C
I do not doubt your 20 percent figure, but I would like to know where you got it. I could put it to good use.

I have 2 words that prove Stossel right;

Just Another Jones

I got it from a number of sources, including the GAO and the Heritage Foundation, who, in turn got the figures from a number of sources, including the GAO.

Blazing Saddles
Hearing the great Yobamma describe the economy in apocoplyptic terms reminds me of the GOV(played by Mel Brooks) say to his cabinet "Gentlemen, we've got to protect out phoney balogna jobs!"
BTW I would rather not have a gubmint stimulus. I'd prefer a dickmeless plan.

Money!!!!!
Money with them is nothing but trash when it comes out of the people.But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving,and many of them sacrifice honor,integrity and justice to obtain it.Some will even fail to pay their fair share of taxes,and Obama will still stand up for them.He will even go as far as he can to promote these kind of people and to offer them places of responsibility.If they are not honest with their own affairs and are unable to tend to them.How under heaven does Obama think men like this can and will handle governmental affairs honestly and apporperly?Obama presents himself as a knowledgeable person and yet he can't or won't recognize who he is appointing to these places of public trust.Or maybe he wants somebody who is willing and knows how to pull off deals like;"NOT PAYING TAXES"Hey that's my kind of guy.That kind of guy is what I'm looking for.If he can get by without paying taxes this long.I know he can get me by on some shady deals also.

bob c
did not mean to offend you, but you are the one who laughed at research i presented.

but more importantly, lets talk business.

i am a small business owner in a construction related field.

i have had to dip into 50% of my cash reserve to survive the bush recession.

things are looking up right now, but if you give me a tax cut, i will simply put it into my cash reserve.

i will not hire more employees and i will not expand.

will target and home depot call back the workers they have laid off if they get a tax cut.

no way.

second of all, lamar alexander and a democrat senator have proposed the government re-finance ALL home loans at 4.2%.

this would put an additional 250-400 dollars a month in the pocket of homeowners.

that is stimulus and i am for it and it is sponsored by the government.


Christopher parisho
irish miracle???


you guys honestly don't understand what is going on.
this is not your fathers recession.
traditional conservative dogma does not work here.

look at this, they were the first to go into recession.

Ireland entered recession during the first half of 2008, becoming the first eurozone nation to do so since the credit crunch began a year ago. France, the eurozone's second largest economy, has since joined it.

The technical definition of a recession is two successive quarters of negative economic growth.

Ireland has been hammered by the international credit crisis and a banking crunch last week saw the introduction of emergency laws to give a two-year unlimited guarantee on the deposits in six banks.

http://news.smh.com.au/business/ireland-facing-twoyear-rece ssion-20081007-4vyy.html

The Free Market
If it can still be called a free market, will take care of itself. Nothing that the Govt. passes will help the economic situation in the US today. The B.O.M.B did not work, and the "stimulus" package under the Obama administration will not work either. A spending bill WILL NOT WORK.

Now a reduction in the size of govt, and reducing taxes across the board may work. Something that has not been tried. They have tried spending our way out several times, and each time failed.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results. -- Albert Einstein paraphrased

Bob_C
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 1:10 PM EST
Christianlib

Government does not creat wealth. Government is overhead - what in the business world we call indirect labor."

Government guarantees the ability to create wealth. Business folks wouldn't last five minutes without it.

"...Government is bloated, inefficient, corrupt, redundent and ineffective in their stated goals. for every dollar the government confiscates from its citizens, only $0.20 actually provides the services for which the dollar is spent."

Yet they do FAR better than business how many trillions are now lost from the market?

"... Consider that the $3.4 trillion budget provides only $680 Billion in services, a huge portinon of which is pork and makework..."

even if you were correct that is still better than vaporizing it in banks and other businesses.

Why after basically destroying the economy do you trust business to operate correctly this time LOL

ChristianLib...
Christians are generally very fond of learning lessons... parables and all...

What kind of lesson do we learn when we take risks or cheat or simply fail to do due diligence and when bottom falls out, we are simply nursed back to health with government payback. What kind of lesson do we learn when we are very prudent with our resources and husband our wealth, taking limited risks and relying on our personal industry and ingenuity to provide for ourselves, but when calamity befalls others, our wealth is confiscated and given to those who weren't as prudent.

I'll admit to a small amount of luck being part of the equation that separates success from failure. And I'll concede for the sake of argument that government can provide some kind of stimulus to the economy that might actually be beneficial, at least in the short term. But this scenario is nothing more than the Ant and the Grasshopper story turned on its ear as we've all seen many times passed around via email. If you can't recognize the immorality and the moral hazard involved with letting government take from some to give to others, even with the best of intentions, then I just don't know how to respond.

There is a reason why the rich will find it like a camel passing through the eye of a needle to get into heaven. It is because it ain't the kind of charity that has any moral value if it isn't voluntarily offered from the heart. When the government takes from us that which we earned and uses it to do good works or bad, it puts all taxpayers in the same basic condition as the wealthy in the parable.

Government spending and prosperity
The government's tentacles started the downturn and government interference will continue it. Government bureaucrats never learn, nor is it in their interest to do so.

Christianlib

Perhaps Obama's policies will help you. But that is no excuse to bankrupt the United States economy to do it.

You're thinking on an anecdotal level. I'm not for tax cuts at this point, I'm for the government to QUIT SPENDING MONEY ON UNESSENTIALS. There is absolutely no excuse to give 5.7 billion to ACORN, or any of the other hundreds of billions in pork to be spent. A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon we're talking real money, as the saying goes.

In the lond run, it will not help you or anyone else. It will, however hurt this country down the line.

Bailing people out who've taken out mortgages they can't afford is simply insane. I can't remember offhand what the percentage is of those who've already been bailed out and six months later are in default again, but it is significant.

Before you praise Obama's bill, perhaps you ought to read it. Summary here:

http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/PressSummary01-15-09.pd f

Full Bill here:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1/text

Primus54
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 1:20 PM EST
Hal "LMAO©" Donahue responds:
"yet I am the guy who was a corporate exec and successfully turned around companies with as few as ten employees"
-----

...I have a clue for you, Hal. "Poor" people - defined as people without funds - ..."

the old change the definition game. Are you telling me a person who owes more than he has is not a "poor person"? Yes or no

"You can twist and turn this however you want, but if I'm looking for a job to buy MY groceries, I'm going to seek a job with a company or person who can demonstrate they can meet their payroll today and tomorrow - not from the guy living in government housing who can't pay his electric bill."

What a great luxury!! Go to your local unemployment office and ask if they are so picky? Look at the stats for these companies going bust owing workers salary not paid?

If you ever were in business or worked someone certainly sheltered you

Hal Donahue

Hal, I appreciate your service to America. But that's as far as it goes. You are apparently totally devoid of any understanding of even rudimentary economics.

I make it a policy to never argue a subject with anyone who doesn't at the very least understand the basics. You seem to be under the laughable delusion that the government had nothing to do with this recession. But then, you claim you're part of the government and that would make you just a tad biased.

Hal...
Government is intended only to protect rights. It shouldn't be competing with private parties or picking winners and losers. It only helps businesses in as much as it protects property rights, enforces legal contracts, adjudicates disputes and claims of negligence and punishes theft, fraud, coercion, etc.

If a business loses money, it should fail. It has destroyed wealth whether intentionally or not. If it has any remaining assets, they will be scooped up by those businesses and individuals who did not make the same mistakes. Those would be the ones to made profits and created wealth. They probably should be the ones (or so they have demonstrated) to decide how to most effectively utilize resources and run businesses.

Nobody trusts failed business managers to operate correctly this time or any time, although they have borne the brunt of their mistakes and experience is a good teacher. I would trust managers who demonstrated an ability to make profits to improve the economy. Isn't that how you decide where to invest your money? Do you invest in failing mutual funds and companies or in successful companies and funds run by managers with a good track record?

I HAVE A STALKER!!!! LMAO
"Primus54 Location: OH
Reply # 107
Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 1:35 PM EST
Hal "LMAO©" Donahue responds:
"seen it, done it and have the tee shirt. That is why I have the luxury of doing community service bringing the light to the great unwashed here (wink) LOL"
-----

Sorry Hal. Doesn't add up.

It is far more likely you are a retiree living off your Air Force and street-cop pensions.

I've seen your abode..."

Well how can I break it to you. My home is upmarket of my Senator's right up the street. What would you like a bigger house and bling? My home is nice, historic and I quite like it. But thank you, I have never had a stalker before LMAO

I don't have a street cop pension I only did that for three years

No we can only spend on

other countries' infrastructure, and on rich people's tax cuts.

Chloe

It's a pretty good idea to be coherent when you post on Town Hall. Otherwise we just think you're an idiot.

Bob_C
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 3:21 PM EST
Hal Donahue

Hal, I appreciate your service to America. But that's as far as it goes. You are apparently totally devoid of any understanding of even rudimentary economics."

Sigh thank you but economics is my major in college

"...You seem to be under the laughable delusion that the government had nothing to do with this recession..."

Oh it did; it had a lot. No oversight; little regulation and less enforcement not to mention massive business welfare spending

"...But then, you claim you're part of the government and that would make you just a tad biased..."

Oh no I am happy to serve if asked but I am only a volunteer cog at the DNC

Hal Donahue
"Sigh thank you but economics is my major in college"

LMAO!! Where did you get your degree, Tards R Us?

I'm sorry, Hal, but you really come off as somebody who not only can't understand that government is, to the extent that they muck around in the economy, an impediment to prosperity. But you seem to believe that the government does things better than the private sector. That makes you an idiot, Hal.

Chord
"The cliff is just ahead- Can you see it?"

I saw it quite some time ago but I thought the Euros would go over first. The Dems will give them a run for their money, inflation adjusted worthless money!

We the People "Petition Drive"
Obama says that the pay and bonuses of corporate executives should have limits. However, there should be limits on the pay, income and wealth former federal politicians can receive or create after leaving political office.

No former president should earn 150 million dollars or more after leaving political office. No senator or congressman should be allowed to earn tens of millions of dollars as a lobbyist or in any position servicing federal government after leaving political office.

What has happened is that America has become under the domination of a Washington D.D. "Political Class." I propose that a provision be included in the Obama stimulus package currently under debate that places limitations on what a politician can earn and keep after that politician leaves political office.

This provision should read that no federal politican or public servant in any branch of the federal government shall earn no more than $250,000 per year of income or profits from employment working for or lobbying for any company that associates with or deals with any current federal politician in any branch of the federal government. Any income or profits in assess of $250,000 shall be forfeited to the People of the US, the federal government. Further, no former federal politician shall steer or direct income or profits to any family member or expanded family member. Former Federal politicians shall use as their main income their federal pension and pension benefits.

If this provision is added to the Obama stimulus package under debate this provision will kill the Obama pork stimulus package. The people must speak and reign in greedy politicians making tens and hundreds of millions of dollars from being in member of the "political class." The peole must move to eliminate the "Political Class" in Washington D.C.

Stalker, Hal?


Ha... not hardly.

Just a satellite shot - hardly "upscale".

JOEY - WHAT DO YOU EXPECT
Hey Joey - reply #40 - Agreed.

It seems the most stupid people in the USA were rounded up, moved to Washintgon D.C. to be our leaders.

I am contacting the office of all my state Senators, Democrates and Republicans alike to let them know that my vote in 2010 will depend on the excessive spending they are doing with our tax dollars.

Nevada - You have to get Reid out of there.
California - Please recall Pelosi.
Connecticut - Do you really like Chris Dodd?
New York - Isn't 38 years of Charles Rangal enough?
USA - We'll give Obama one year, then impeach him.


primus
years ago me and a buddy started a trucking company. the first year i made probably 15,000. so we decided to hire another driver. is that poor enough for you? we are no longer in business however. would you believe that there are thousands of freight brokers out there who don't own a truck and basically operate out of their house or a small office? well to make a long story short,its difficult to sort out who is legit and who isn't until after you take the load and then find that either they've shut down and moved or just refuse to pay you for the work you did. i contacted a lawyer and he told me that you had to sue them in their jurisdiction and that they usually kept it low enough to not make it worth your while. so i guess i learned something, unfortunately too late to save the company.

What's All This Then?
Grumbling from the serfs? Complaints? Petitions?

Insolence! Their eyes and ears must not be offended by such assaults as some here suggest.

You people are forgetting the pact America made last November. Self governance, independence and self reliance have proven too hard for us. We've opted for feudalism.

In exchange for a meager, but predictable, existence, we've agreed to His dominion over us. Don't you remember? Don't you remember the millions of us who flocked to His feet, arms outstretched, weeping and swooning over His every word. Our Saviour! Our Messiah! Angel Obama!

Three hundred million slaves cannot burden Him and our other lords with outmoded and discredited notions of democracy, budgetary restraint, and freedom. We are to remain quiet!

They will determine what we can have, how much we get paid and how high our thermostats can be set.

You will be fed and clothed. That is all. Grass eaters keep their heads down and shuffle off to another part of the pasture at the prodding of their shepherds.

They don't sign no petitions.

Bob ... these politicians...
... and political appointees spend our tax dollars to run our government but they don't have the basic common-sense to know that they have to pay their taxes.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/288200.html

This is the natural arrogance from being a member of the so-called Washington D.C. "Political Class."


Bob_C
"Hal Donahue
"Sigh thank you but economics is my major in college"

LMAO!! Where did you get your degree, Tards R Us?"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hal-donahue

"...But you seem to believe that the government does things better than the private sector. That makes you an idiot, Hal..."

Government does some things better. The private sector is FAR from efficient. Look where they took us now. Would you trust the private sector with national defense? or how about police work? Want a rent a cop rather than a city policeman?

Primus54
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 4:18 PM EST
Stalker, Hal?


Ha... not hardly.

Just a satellite shot - hardly "upscale"."

Nope just a nice place in a nice neighborhood. You don't recall I said when we moved here we did urban homesteading? Now it is worth a lot more than I paid for it and the neighborhood is nice. Gosh is this a new status level? I never heard of any other troll here or anywhere who had their very own stalker, satellite or not LOL

Re: Larry's "We the People" petition...
Goodness Larry, there is very little motivation for the political class to ever abandon their office and the power of incumbency ensures they don't have to. High consulting fees and perks used to be the only way to get them to leave. Even K Street consulting companies have minimum standards and won't hire drunken, philandering, murderers, so we are we are permanently stuck with the likes of Teddy Kennedy. Be very careful what you ask for!

;)

Hal...
We pay a pretty steep price for defense and the military. Can you compare the amount of taxpayer dollars going to defense and security of all forms vs what private security might cost. Many wealthy people seem to want to supplement public security with private security such as body guards. So there probably is a cost-benefit analysis that could be performed and we might all be surprised by the results. I have always preferred that military defense and police be provided by government, but it isn't necessarily the only or even the most cost effective way to do it.

feed
yeah we tried that in iraq. outsourcing the wiring of the barracks. 12 gi's electrocuted trying to take a shower. but you are correct in that it did save money. except for the 6 billion that is unaccounted for of course.

Folks something you should know about
A sad tale of a soldier and his family. Please read, circulate widely and demand accountability. Times have changed; let's show it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hal-donahue/a-military-family -treated_b_162965.html

roy
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 5:11 PM EST
feed
yeah we tried that in iraq. outsourcing the wiring of the barracks. 12 gi's electrocuted trying to take a shower. but you are correct in that it did save money. except for the 6 billion that is unaccounted for of course."

We are up to 17 and counting read my Huff piece

hal
this is ridiculous. heads should roll. but i'm positive that the apologists will come up with some lame reason why its not anybody's fault. the amazing thing to me is that it keeps on happening. this has gone on for years now. you are correct in your article, this is negligent homicide.

FeedFwd
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 5:01 PM EST
Hal...
We pay a pretty steep price for defense and the military...."

Far too much in my opinion.

".. Can you compare the amount of taxpayer dollars going to defense and security of all forms vs what private security might cost. .."

Private security is cheaper and less expensive by far. BUT what you so often lack is the service component. And the most dangerous element as Rome learned was mercenaries learn quickly to to take control.

"..Many wealthy people seem to want to supplement public security with private security such as body guards..."

Yes because above a certain level of service you must pay yourself. You want and perhaps need 24/7 body protection? That is too much for the taxpayers to pay. Also, supplement is the key word also

"...I have always preferred that military defense and police be provided by government, but it isn't necessarily the only or even the most cost effective way to do it."

Seems that it is if you want to retain what freedom you have. Although we have tried it in Iraq where we have as many mercenaries as soldiers.

roy
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 5:51 PM EST
hal
this is ridiculous. heads should roll. but i'm positive that the apologists will come up with some lame reason why its not anybody's fault. the amazing thing to me is that it keeps on happening. this has gone on for years now. you are correct in your article, this is negligent homicide."

The military says negligent homicide too now that the senators are on the case. You should see some of the info I have it would curl your hair

HAL - I'LL ADD TO OTHER COMMENTS

You really don't know what you are writing here so stop embarrassing or emasculating yourself and return to the Huffington Post. Maybe they can provide the insight you want about the economy.

Bob
"Date: Feb 4, 2009 - 6:26 PM EST
HAL - I'LL ADD TO OTHER COMMENTS

You really don't know what you are writing here so stop embarrassing or emasculating yourself and return to the Huffington Post. Maybe they can provide the insight you want about the economy."

Ah yes I do Bob but I can understand why you find it so difficult to realise why your entire philosophy is so very wrong and how it is responsible for destroying the wealth of millions and the jobs of millions of more the guilt you are avoiding would be overwhelming to a good person

Roy
I guess we threw a wet blanket on this party? All I did was provide one, well 17, examples. Now they are all huddled in their bunkers

hal
yeah i noticed that lol

The "Honest Mistake" virus
Liberals, for whatever reason, believe public servants spend taxes not pay taxes. It seems the current "honest mistake" viral outbreak first surfaced with Charlie Rangel:

Charlie Rangel speaks about his experience with the viral condition and the curious liberal pattern of making honest mistakes:
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20080915_Editorial__ Rangel_s_Tax_Problems.html

Limousine liberal, Tom Daschle, seems to have caught the "honest mistake" virus, too.

The Obama appointed head of the Treasury dept caught the "Honest Mistake, no taxes for rich liberals" viral condition in Europe.

White House Performance Czar nominee, Nancy Killefer, had to withdraw her name due to a bad case of the "Honest Mistake no taxes for rich liberals" virus.

By the way, Chris Matthew's doesn't go anywhere without his Pocket Obama, purchsae price, $49.50. He says, "with only one touch I can keep that thrill up my leg!"

Get yours today at the special, limited time offer, of $900 billion!

"Get your Pocket Obama today ... then, bend over and get screwed!" Chris Matthews says, "he didn't even kiss me and it still felt good."

For a limited time, if you purchase a "Pocket Obama," the device Chrissy Matthews said ran thrills up his leg, we will thrown in the Pocket Obama "$900 billion Rich democrat No Jobs Stimulation package" for free. At check out just say, "Tom Daschle, Limousine liberal" or "why ... liberals don't pay taxes" and get both items tax free. Sucker Joe Public and his great-grandchildren will pay the tab.

Liberals Have Different Definitions

"I think you can be an honest person and lie about any number of things."
--Self-described 'unbiased broker of events,' and CBS anchorman, Dan Rather, when asked in an interview: "Do you think Clinton is an honest man?"

bailout
step 1- limit management compensation. check.

step 2- no dividend payments until taxpayers are paid back in full.with interest. the stock holders should heve kept a better eye on who was running the bank. we can't afford to keep rewarding incompetence and malfeasance. this is next on the agenda.

Many 401k's and IRA's grow...
...from dividend payments.

Obama Alinsky
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky

"In Rules for Radicals, Alinsky outlines his strategy in organizing, writing in the prologue,
'There's another reason for working inside the system. Dostoevski said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system...'"

Now ... inquiring minds want to know is Obama's $900 billion pork bill meant to stimulate the job growth of our economy? Or, is Obama attempting to worsen the damage to our economy for the purpose of doing what Saul Alinsky wrote in Rules for Radicals?

Why is Obama so strident in talking down our economy? Most president's talk up the economy.

Bob and others:
be encouraged with the volume of attacks and comments directed to you from the trolls here.

As I read a few days ago about Pres. Hussein's attack on Rush: "When a liberal squeals, you know he has been stuck!"

You stuck several here with the truth and it hurts.


The growing economic problems are truly bitter-sweet. It is sad to see America hurting and we are all worried about the future, but the looks on the faces of those who fell for the smoke and mirros are priceless......
(free entertainment).

John Maynard Keynes
The mess started in the 1930's when FDR bought into Keynesian economic theory. Part of it involved the government injecting massive amounts of money into the economy.

Most economist will tell you it didn't work during the 1930's because FDR didn't spend enough. When WW II came along, the country went on a war footing with full employment. We had 15 million citizens in uniform.

Keynes also wanted FDR to get off the gold standard. The government couldn't print any more money than could be backed by the gold reserve. Eventually, Nixon ended the gold standard.

Obama seems to have bought into Keynesian economic theory, but Keynes never advocated a never-ending government deficit spending spree.

I suspected Obama was a light-weight intellectually. His blind acceptance of Keynes theory show that Obama has ignored history.

Obama going about this all backward
Wouldn't it be safe to assume that economy, the jobs and the labor market of 1930's America is fundamentally different from the economy, jobs and global labor market of 2009 America.

Therefore, if Keynesian economic theory did not work during the period in history it was designed to work, while we were in an industrial-age, labor intense economy. It probably won't work during a period when we are in an information-age high-tech, capital-intense economy.

The industrial-age, labor-intense economy employed millions and millions of unskilled workers performing very non-productive jobs where the organization yielded low margins of profits.

The information-age of high tech jobs of the capital-intense global economy seeks to streamline business operating practices to yield more and more productivity from the labor-force competing against global labor markets to continuously yield dividends for investors.

If these are the current forces controlling our economy helping to create the conditions that encourage a return of capital (money) into our economy, over other global economies, will cause our national economy to expand. So, the banking system, the credit lending system and the mortgage system is the area of our economy that can benefit from receiving limited support. Along with lowering corporate taxes and taxes on small business to lower the cost of doing business, freeing up capital (money) to feed the economy.

Obama is attacking our national economic problems using a$$ backward tactics that will hurt the economy causing the economy to eventually stall and inflation to rise. Again, causing an economic slowdown. Everything Obama proposes will stall the economy in the years to come.

larry22
and everything bush and republicans did have stalled this economy for years to come.

obama did not make this mess, bush and the republicans were in charge, to now sit back and pretend that the same policies that got us into this mess will get us out is folly.

how will tax cuts bring back the 3 million laid off workers in the next year?

you guys don't seem to understand that your philosophy was tried and it failed.

RE: christianlib Reply # 120
"You guys honestly don't understand what is going on.
This is not your fathers recession.
Traditional conservative dogma does not work here."

(Capitalization errors in the quote above are corrected for you)



Yes, I do. And it isn't dogma, it is fact....which I know libs have a hard time dealing with when they are in opposition to their emotional beliefs.

Recessions happen. It is a natural reaction to rapid growth. Whether they rebound or become depressions is dependent on how those in power react.

Ireland's recession is a reaction to the rapid growth it experienced, EU regulations kicking in and being imposed on them, and other global markets it serves (the U.S for one) having their own problems.

A perfect example of what NOT to do comes from your own state of CA. I grew up in SoCal, and I have first hand understanding of the economic potential CA has. It has a huge labor force (legal and illegal), so business' would love to make use of the labor force, but it also has an abundance of over regulation and punitive taxes which drive business' out of the state or out of business all together.

Since you are fond of linking to news articles, try looking at this, and maybe have an open mind when you do;

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3289/is_n6_v162/ai_1 4153920

RE: christianlib reply #120
"The technical definition of a recession is two successive quarters of negative economic growth."



I'm glad you pointed this out because it gives me a chance to make a point.

First a correction;

It is THE definition of a recession not a "technical" definition.

Now my point;

For the past few years, since the election cycle for the 2006 elections, the Liberals and the majority of the media have been chanting about the U.S. being in a recession, but if you look at the chart linked to below you will see that we did NOT have the 2 successive quarters required to declare a recession.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdp_glance.htm

It was not until the last 2 quarters of 2008 when we had two successive quarters with negative growth. I (and a few others) suggest that the reason for those two quarters having negative growth are a direct result of poor financial interference by government (Fanny Mae & Freddy Mac junk mortgages, and the regulations or exemptions which allowed it) and the years of constant negative drum beating by Liberals and the media which instills a lack of economic trust in consumers.

In this case, chanting that the sky was falling, while not fixing regulations, and allowing government interference in the market actually led to the sky falling.

RE: christianlib reply # 163
I will agree that many Republicans, including Former President Bush did take actions that led to the problems today, and those actions were traditionally Liberal actions such as; out of control spending, allowing government entities to interfere with the market, enacting or allowing regulations which contributed to the lenders being required to make bad loans which they and the borrowers knew when they were made would most likely NOT be paid back in full.

Now the Liberals solutions are to spend more, and enable more bad loans to be made, all while raising taxes which even Obama himself said is not a good idea while we are in a recession.

The fact that you have to ask how tax cuts would keep or create more jobs is proof that you don't understand the economics of a truly free market, which we have not had in decades.

Republicans voted against Republicans in the last two election cycles because they acted as Liberals. It is Liberal economic philosophy which has been tried and failed (the Carter years, the Clinton DotCom bust). But every so often we have to witness the failures again first hand because people either have short term memories, or the education system is failing to teach the failures of bad economic actions of the past so we are doomed to repeat them.

Americans Aren't "Buying" Pork Anymore
Wake up, Washington D.C. The generations are baby boomers who have seen a lot and lived through a lot of pork barrel governmental bills that cost us our health insurance; IRA's, 401k's. higher capital gains taxes; higher taxes; unaffordable senior care; high gasoline prices; loss of jobs; higher unemployment; and so many laws that our citizens are paying excessive fines and penalities to the IRS; and more people are arrested with excessive laws that control Americans; and the judicial system has become unaffordable and traffic tickets and misdemeanor fines and sentencing are excessive in many cases at taxpayers expenses, and so forth....so for President Obama and his baby boomer team with socialist spending on government programs as the agenda under the guise of stimulating the economy - just doesn't fly with a generation of wise Americans who demand that their stolen tax dollars that caused this economic crisis be corrected by limiting government expansion and helping the people who made this country great and the small businesses who provide 80% of the jobs.

Keynes: How much is too much?
I read an article the other day that said that deficit spending is OK, if not called for, as long as the deficit is below 4% of GDP. Now, I don't know what the "limit" is, but Obama is moving us in the direction of annual deficits of more than 10% of GDP. I think that deficits are fine, as long as they are of reasonable size.

And one thing you don't hear much about is that these huge deficits are going to put us in the area of a total government of more than 100% of GDP, and I don't think that's surviveable. At least when the annual deficits are small, the economy can grow faster than those deficits, so the total debt never overtakes GDP. A declining economy, as we are in now, can absorb reasonable deficits for a year or two, and eventually make that surplus (economic growth over deficit) up. But Obama's deficits, so much so fast, will hobble the economy forever.

Just breezed over the stimulus package..
and it sounds great. Unfortunately, we couldn't afford to do these projects before the economic collapse. How in the hell are we supposed to be able to afford them now? If we had all of this money in our reserves like we should have had then i wouldn't have a problem with it. But we don't have it, yet were spending it like we do. We will print money out of thin air and circulate it into the economy. Which will inturn raise the price of goods and services worldwide. Which will leave the poor poorer. So maybe it is good. Then the poor will not be purchasing as much fast foods, cigarettes, and alcohol and the economy will fall even further. Then the strong will survive and flourish. Years of spending like drunken sailors have finally caught up with us. I don't care what President Obama says. It is the fault of the consumers. Nobody made these people sign these unaffordable loans. They got what they deserved.
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