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Wednesday, February 11, 2009
John Shadegg :: Townhall.com Columnist
Rationing Healthcare Creates Jobs?
by John Shadegg
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



Every day Americans learn about another outrageous, irrelevant spending provision in Democrats’ so-called stimulus bill.

There’s money for global warming. There’s money for sex education. There’s money for Amtrak. There’s money for unions. There’s money to buy new cars and office space for bureaucrats. They’re even doing golf course renovations. Who knows, maybe they’ll even fix-up my rain gutter.

But here’s the bottom line: this bill has everything except economic stimulus. It’s just one big, sordid payback for Democrat special interests.

Congress has now become the make-a-wish foundation for greedy politicians.

And unfortunately, it gets much worse. Not only is the bill loaded with pork that will burden, rather than spur, the economy, but it also contains a dangerous – and overlooked – provision to begin handing over Americans’ healthcare freedom to bureaucrats.

It’s called “Comparative Effectiveness Research.” While it sounds innocuous, the worst big-government programs always do. In short, comparative effectiveness research is a tool for bureaucrats take your health care decisions away from you and your doctor. Washington Liberals plan to use this “research” to determine which medical treatments are, or are not, ‘cost-effective,’ as they determine.

Just read the words from the House Appropriations Committee’s own report on the stimulus regarding this provision: “Those items, procedures, and interventions… that are found to be less effective and in some cases, more expensive, will no longer be prescribed.” In reaction, 63 patient advocacy groups including the AIDS Institute, the Alzheimer’s Foundation of America, and the American Association for Cancer Research, have written a letter to Congress, expressing their concerns. They explained that this provision could lead to “restrictions on patients’ access to treatments and physicians’ and other providers’ ability to deliver care that best meets the needs of the individual patient.”

A federal health care board proposed and envisioned by several leading Democrats will result in comparative effectiveness research being used to ration health care in America. Rather than patients and doctors making decisions about what treatments or drugs make sense for you and your loved ones, a federal health care board will control which health care options are available.

Using “comparative effectiveness,” countries which already have government-run healthcare deny patients life-saving medical treatment. It’s been used, for instance, by the UK’s National Center for Health and Clinical Excellence to repeatedly denying breakthrough drugs to citizens suffering with breast cancer, Alzheimer’s, and multiple sclerosis.

Consider the case of UK resident George Robinson, a lung cancer patient who died while waiting for the life-extending drug Tarceva. The National Center for Health and Clinical Excellence has recently deemed the drug to not be cost-effective. And now, 2,000 lung cancer patients may soon face Robinson’s fate.

Government-run healthcare, which rations care to hold down cost, is a menace to free people everywhere. There are many thousands who would be alive today but for the monstrous myth that nationalized medicine works. And Comparative Effectiveness Research – shamelessly concealed in the stimulus bill – marches America toward that dreaded future when our most private medical decisions are made by far-off elites in Washington, D.C.

That day is now closer than ever. Recall that Tom Daschle – a leading force for government-run healthcare – nearly became Director of Health and Human Services. We dodged a bullet with Daschle, but the fight against government control of healthcare has only begun.

And in that fight, we must remember that freedom is as precious as it is vulnerable. It takes constant vigilance to preserve. But when taken for only a short time it may take generations to return. For the sake of our children, and theirs after, we must defend this basic freedom. We must not let history record that it was lost the day we were standing watch.

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About The Author
John Shadegg has represented Arizona's Third Congressional District since 1994. He has established a reputation in Congress as a leading advocate for reduced government spending, federal tax relief, and the re-establishment of state and individual rights.

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Diane Cont'd
Think about it: when they were suing doctors and putting health care plans out of business for the slightest mistake or oversight, the lib lawyers were spinning themselves as the greatest of humanitarians. But now that they're in a position to launch an attack on and take over the entire medical system of this nation, they're poising the mechanisms which will allow them to become the greatest butchers this world has seen.

Not only will they not stop at butchery of the unborn and aged, they will go after those that don't measure up to their 'quality of life' standards as well as those who might not be willing to tow or oppose their line.

Welcome to the Obamanation...what we do now is the most critical time in this nation's history.

Mr. Shadegg: we are aware and set to rally behind good leadership such as that as representatives like you can provide. The case has to be made that complacency is no longer an option in the face of this radical fascist threat.

Diane I
"You are truly an idiot. Nothing is as important as your life. Over the years doctors have developed procedures and testing that can save lives. Now to threaten them with sanctions if they do too many of these procedures and tests because the cost too much money is disgraceful. Our politicians just signed a bill to spend money on a bunch of pork projects that will basically do nothing but you think that letting people die to save money is a good thing. I guess you have never had a loved one that lived because of the skill of a doctor. I wonder how you would feel if a doctor told you he might be able to save your life but the government thinks its too expensive. A life is worth saving no matter what the cost."

You waste your breath on arrogant know it all indoctrinated dolts. For incipient fascists, their trip is power to decide someone else's fate. That's all they have - they never prepared themselves to do anything useful.

Also, you're right about their spending and resource allocation: when it's for their purposes, mountains of money such as this 'stimulus' demonstrates is not enough.

re: Laurie
Those are very interesting suggestions as well, thank you for posting. Good common sense alternative to national care that should be discussed.

re: Anthony 4
Another poster Mitch brings up an intersting idea, about getting rid of HMO altogether, and going back to fee for service with public assistance and public clinics for poor, perhaps with the option of purchasing private "major medical" coverage for emergencies and other situations that fall out of the scope of routine care. I think this has possibilities, but again, I think there would need to be oversight on the insurance companies to determine that they are providing the coverage they are bound by contract to do. No wiggle room.

To the poster Planting Ground: dude, take your meds. You personify exactly what I was talking about, you have allowed the health care issue to become intertwined with the Mom, Apple Pie and Baseball America you want to protect. Your nasty attacks on people like myself and Alice who are honestly concerned about our current system as somehow we are not American or worse reveals more about you then it does us.

re: Anthony 3
A hypothetical situation: let's say I have purchased coverage through Healthy INsurance Company, and have paid for said coverage at a rate of 1000$/month for a family of four. All is well for about 10 years or so, with my only claims being routine doctor visits and checkups. After 10 years, tragedy strikes, a family member develops a terminal cancer through a genetic glitch. It is diagnosed and the specialist recommends a known to be effective treatment, but it is very costly. I submit a claim to Healthy Insurance Co, it is denied off the bat. I spend the next few months while my family member is dying, filing paperwork, doing phone battles with various desk jockeys, and finally it gets to the highest board run by doctors paid by Healthy to review claims. Little do I know that Healthy pays these doctors bonuses for the more money they save Healthy (ie. how many claims they deny), and there we go. My claim is denied, with the reasoning that the treatment is "experimental" and the condition is not truly "life threatening". My family member subsequently dies. Here's the rub: as a consumer, at no point do I have an option to leverage against Healthy for better value for the money I have given them. I cannot simply quit their coverage and go to another provider, as with a family member with cancer we will surely be denied coverage due to "pre-existing condition". There is no incentive for Healthy to act in my favor, or bend in my direction at all. They hold all the cards. Therein is the most serious issue with our current system. The balance between consumer and provider is gone, and we are talking about life and death situations, vs the companies bottom line. True, government would have no oversight under a national system, but government is not driven by it's bottom line as we know all to well : )

re: Anthony 2
As a believer in the free market system, I see the problem with health care run by for-profit insurers as follows: in "normal" market systems, the balance of power between consumer and provider is balanced by the provider providing goods at a cost that the consumer finds is reasonable for the goods and services. If the consumer does not find the cost reasonable, they will go elsewhere (assuming there is competition) to bargain for a better deal. Or, the provider has the choice of lowering cost or increasing the value for the cost. In any case, in a well-functioning market system, the consumer and the provider meet in the middle and both walk away happy. In the case of private health insurance, not always the case. First, because of the cost sharing system between employer and employee, the true costs are hidden, until you are forced by circumstance to purchase health care as an individual. The costs are way over what the consumer would find is reasonable, yet they are forced to pay the costs (or not have coverage, and pay the eventual long run costs) as set by the insurer for a dubious bargain.

re: Anthony
Thank you for your polite and reasoned response : ) Very refreshing.. although just to set the record straight I am a "she" not a "he" : )

Yes, as I stated in my posts I don't think nationalized health care in the UK/Canadian form is perfect by any means. I've heard some interesting results from Denmark and Sweden who did have national health care, and due to the costs and tax burden have experimented with a hybrid system of universal coverage through private insurers with of course, rules for coverage. And they have seen costs decrease and quality of care increase.

The problems I point out with our current care system are real, especially as a conservative, I think you can see the problem with the employer based system. It has caused jobs to go overseas in part because it makes competition difficult by adding the additional cost per employee in the health coverage.

Mitch
Let's see if I can make any sense out of drug price differentials. Basically drugs have very high upfront costs known as sunk costs after the money is spent to develop the drug. Once approved for market most of the cost is already there. The additional cost of production is minimal. With minimal variable cost and extremely high fixed cost it makes sense to sell at practically any price. The socialist countries will not use the drug if the price is too high. Their customers must simply do without, die, whatever. So the drug companies sell them there cheap. Our highly regulated virtually socialist market allows them to charge higher prices here because most people do not have to pay it, the insurance company does as you know.

Creating a truly free market here would force more competition making it harder for the drug companies to make up the difference here and putting pressure on prices elsewhere. A new equilibrium would emerge with more of the cost being spread evenly around although the other countries would still distort the market somewhat based on the drugs approved there and the prices the governments could pay within their budgeted medical constraints. The newest drugs would probably only be available here first and only trickle to socialist countries as the patents expire and generics become available.

There would still be some distortion. Just as there is in other markets where many countries do not have tariffs or other import export barriers but some still do. There is also the issue of patent or copyright infringement which a government could skirt in other countries producing the same drug or a facsimile which may or may not be as effective or safe.

Andrea
I'm not against companies making a profit, that what this country is all about, but there is a thing called price gouging. Even if you include the R&D and field testing (which is mostly government intervention, and we all know how they can drive up costs) there still something to be said about why it costs less elsewhere.

When Is Teddy Kenedy
going to pull the plug and refuse further treatments? That's what he would expect, no, MANDATE, from you or me. Come on, Blubber, stop wasting the taxpayers money.

That's change I can believe in.

Andrea
Nothing fits perfectly and nobody likes a nitpicker but, I still like you.:)

Mitch
writes, "If you take insurance out of picture, all of a sudden biotech companies are forced to be competitive, because they are subject to what the consumer is willing to pay. Yes they could keep prices high, but I guarantee that a competitor would come along at half the price and steal there business. That is what competition is all about."

What you write is perfectly correct except it happens whether or not you have insurance companies. Insurance companies simply pool risk. Risk for what? Whatever they choose? Whatever consumers want? Not hardly. The insurance system is corrupted by government regulations as much as anything. They are forced to cover things they don't want to. Kinda like requiring airbags jacks up the price of the car but, the people mandating it can easily afford it while the rest of us don't have a choice. Insurance companies, like too many others, primarily compete in the political arena instead of the consumer one.

As to the meds, we basically subsidize the rest of the world thanks to their socialist health systems and our still kinda semi market oriented one at least for a while.

Mitch @ 7:23 pm
There are a number of factors that contribute to the high cost of medications. First, it takes years of research and clinical trials amounting to about $800 million PER DRUG. There are many drugs in development at any one time. Most will not work and some have to be taken off the market and reparations paid when they go bad. Only three out of ten medicines that reach the marketplace ever make enough profit to cover average research and development costs. Then there is the cost of advertising and pitching to doctors to prescribe the new drugs.

It's a business like anything else. I don't know why even conservatives bristle at the idea of pharmacuetical companies making a profit.

Hitchhiker
Your analogy doesn't quite fit. You don't use auto insurance to buy a car or homeowners insurance to buy a house, but you do use health insurance to purchase health care. That is what makes the difference. The less out of pocket payments that consumers are responsible for, the more they will use services in general. Just look at this chart:

http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/AboutUs/ArticleView.aspx? id=2317

The more third party payers (this includes the government as well as private insurance companies) paid, the more costs went up over the years. To be sure, some of the rise is due to technology, but you can't deny that people will use services less when they have to pay for them out of pocket.

What it boils down to this that conservatives don't want to be a big "collective." We want our freedom.

Just to set the record straight
I am not for this bill at all. It takes away freedom, spends numerous amount of money for nothing more than to help their buddies, and it will place once of largest tax burdens on the American people that I have ever seen, IMO.

Planting ground
Well when it comes to our "beloved" politicians you better believe the gloves our off. They are not the misguided masses that they have influenced. They are the wolves who know exactly what they are doing to this country. I was referring to the misguided masses that the Dems have swindled into believing this lie called "change".

Hitchhiker
Good points, but how do you explain the outrageous price for medication? That is something that I cannot get my head around. It perplexes me to think that I can go to the Caribbean and get name brand medication for $20 and yet here in the US the same meds can cost $100. The only solution that comes to my mind is simple greed. Corporations know people need medication, so they can inflate prices because of this fact alone. But, when insurances covers most of the cost of the medication, the temptation must be that much greater.

If you take insurance out of picture, all of a sudden biotech companies are forced to be competitive, because they are subject to what the consumer is willing to pay. Yes they could keep prices high, but I guarantee that a competitor would come along at half the price and steal there business. That is what competition is all about.

Sad to say,
Unfortunately, the Democrats have pushed this beyond the point of being a discussion, civil or not. They have picked a fight. They are acting the violent aggressor. It's time to cease the namby pamby dialogue, take the gloves off and stop taking the sucker punches. I wish it weren't so, but this was not instigated by conservatives.

Mitch
writes, "My solution as I said before, is to get rid of these insurance companies that are robbing us blind all together, therefore leaving prices to be based solely on supply and demand. That way we all win."

Do auto insurance companies drive up the price of autos? Does your homeowners insurance drive up the price of houses? The answer is generally no but, in very limited cases, yes. The driver or the homeowner has no interest in keeping the cost of repairs reasonable in cases of accident when someone else is paying the bill. You only pay the deductible right? So, the insurance companies have procedures in place to help ensure they do not overpay for repairs or make repairs under a fraudulent claim. Do you see where this is going?

I will agree that under the current system of virtually everyone having health insurance paid partially by employers contributes to the third party payer price escalation problem. due to the human nature factors I mentioned. This is a relatively minor influence, imo. The big ones are technological advances in health care and government programs to pay for it all. How much do a handful of leaches cost? How many MRIs were done twenty years ago? How many knee replacements?

The only question all this really boils down to is, what medical procedures etc. should be guaranteed to every American by right? This is a question dealt with every day by socialized medicine countries and we hear the stories. If we are going to be one big happy collective, we have to decide these things, who lives and who dies based on what we as a collective can afford.

Planting ground
Make no mistake, I know that this administration is one the most liberal, socialistic regimes ever to have come into power. And I will never under any circumstances compromise on my freedoms granted to me by the constitution. We've lost to much to compromise already, the last thing we need to do is compromise now. What I was trying to get at is that even though there are numerous differences in opinion in this country, we are still the United States of America, and we need to do our best to at least be civil about our disagreements, so we don't drive each other further apart. A house divided against itself will not stand.

Yes I too am fed up with the ignorance of people about our God given freedoms. However, the only way to get people to see what has happened in the last 80 years or so is to educate them, not scold them. One thing I learned from trying to teach others about God is that telling someone as soon as you step in their door that they are hellbound will get you a one way ticket back out into the street. But, when you are cordial but firm on your positions and teach them what the Bible says about it and let them see their error, they are much more likely to be saved.

Now I know that not everyone here believes in God (I pray that one day you do), but these same principles can be used to help teach others about what being an American really is all about.

I would like to take a second and say I am so glad to finally meet people that have the principles that I do, and long to see America become the country that it was not to long ago. Thank you for restoring hope to me.

Horrifying
...is the only word I can think to describe this proposal. As a person with MS, I am horrified to learn that a cure for this disease (and many other worse diseases) may never be found because of this kind of mentality.
I remember a when the mother of a good friend in Belgium was diagnosed with MS. I mentioned that there were new treatments available (interferon therapies), but she told me they couldn't get those treatments there because they were deemed too expensive.
Betsy McCaughey has urged me to contact my Senators and Congressman to lodge my protest over this legislation. I urge you all to do the same.

Can't we all just get along (part two)
We are witnessing the attempted murder of our country. It is being committed by Democrats in a fashion nothing short of the violent rape of the form of government our founders created to preserve our God given freedoms. So when I hear or read one of their enablers attempting to verbally grab me by the wrist, and hold me down and tell me to relax, let go, and try to enjoy it because it is inevitable, the notion of civility seems rather weak. Yes, Alice is right about one thing. I'm madder than a hornet who just had his nest destroyed by a firecracker, and my instinctive reaction is just about the same.

There is no compromise or middle ground when the issue is as basic as the abrogation of our Constitution. Obama and most of his staff, as well as the Democrat party leadership have a long history of attempts to nullify the first two of our Bill of Rights. With those gone, the others have no chance of limiting their ambitions. They are fomenting civil war. What could be more uncivil than that?

To Alice and her fellow travelers, perhaps you could find some pithy quotes by our founders to support your positions. Surely James Madison must have sung the praises of forced redistribution of wealth at some point or another. I bet there must be a quote or two from Thomas Jefferson that extolled the virtue of titanic government debt. C'mon; let me see you support your arguments in a way that doesn't violate both the spirit and the letter of our most important legal documents.

Can't we all just get along?
Mitch, you're right. Flaming and incivility are not constructive, and maybe that sounds odd coming from someone who engaged in a fair degree of it last night. Yes, there's a "but" there.

I see the our soon to be dead republic being governed by a party that has done everything they could possibly think of for the last 80 years to splinter and divide this country, while blathering incessantly about unity. They have openly rubbed raw sentiments of race and class, while at the same time have purposefully enacted legislation intended to keep minorities poor and dependant upon government--which of course means that you and I pay for them, while the party that fosters institutionalized notions of racial inferiority like affirmative action gets their votes in return for us buying their diapers and beer.

They have virtually enslaved us all for months at a time to pay forced tithes to the most insidious and largest Ponzi scheme in world history (and yes, I realize that Bush expanded entitlements and spending to a huge and disgusting degree; but then only the most extreme liberal thinks that Bush was a fiscal conservative. Unfortunately he has made the job of the current Marxist pig in Chief that much easier).

We presently are being presided over by a man who gets most of his meaningful talking points by rephrasing the words of Karl Marx. When I called B.O. a Marxist, people who heard nothing but what they wanted to hear called me a bigot. Go figure, the only people I know of who have ever made an issue of his race are leftists. Now of course, people are beginning to realize he meant what he said when he spoke of redistributive change, and all his high sounding rhetoric about compromise and working together was simply another campaign expedience. Quite frankly, I believe that our current President is an avowed enemy of our nation. He speaks of the Constitution with open contempt, because it empowers people and constrains government, not the other way around.



Civil War 2
I'll say it. We're done, its over. They are coming after our retirements, our personal property, our HEALTH. Che Obama and the Pelosi led democrat central committee have won. We have become a nation of sheep. WE the real americans who work, pay taxes, respect and cherish libery need to get a ANGRY. Take it to the streets
RESIST!
OBAMA is not my president!
The greatest defence against tyranny is an armed populace.

smarti
A great flaw in your statements is treating health care as something that others are obligated to provide. It is a service like any other that those who provide have every right to present in whatever form they choose. No, not everyone will be able to afford certain treatments, but this doesn't give you the right to take others resources, whether mine or the providers and dispense as you see fit. This is theft. OH, and as for Constitutionalist dogma, the Constitution was set down on the principles of protecting individual liberties, and protecting those states which were also doing this. This is not dogma, but a moral imperative.

The flaming has to stop
I can't believe the incivility that some posters have. Do you think that by calling each other names, and derogatory phrases is going to help America come back together? The right and left need to realize that we are first and foremost Americans. I know we disagree on a lot of issues, but that doesn't give any of the right to start flaming each other.

Now back to the healthcare problem. As I said before its everybody's fault. I know that we want to blame government and the left wants to blame enterprise, but we must all realize that everybody has a hand into the problems with our healthcare.

My solution as I said before, is to get rid of these insurance companies that are robbing us blind all together, therefore leaving prices to be based solely on supply and demand. That way we all win.

Without insurances companies inflating prices, medicine and doctor's visits will come down. Now they probably won't come completely down to copay prices, but thats ok, the prices will be where they should've been in the first. and as one commenter said, it would reduce demand because everybody and their grandmother wouldn't go the doctor because of a sore throat, thereby reducing demand and in turn price.

It can work, we all (Libs, Conservatives, Libertarians, whatever your persuasion) just need to see things as they are, not as we want them to be. Then we can come up with real solutions, instead of just bashing each other all day long.

Thanks, Anthony. Much will depend on
who becomes the Sec. of HHS because the language in the compromise bill is very vague. Rep. Shadegg is right, we barely missed the disaster that would have happened with Tom Daschle in that position. I recommend that any of you who doubt about how serious this issue is read Daschle's book “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” It will shock you. Still, Daschle was Obama's first choice, so any other candidates will be undoubtedly be like-minded.

For those of you who complain that private companies ration care now, there are almost always options. You can switch plans if your employer offers a choice. Barring that, you can opt out of your employer's coverage completely and, although your employer may not be able to compensate you, you can pay for another plan of your choice. Or, the smarter thing to do is pay out of pocket for doctor visits and medicines and carry only catastrophic insurance coverage. Obviously, when the government is the only provider of health care payments, you have NO choices! You and your doctor must do what the government says is cost-effective or else.

I do know of what I speak. I am a Nurse Practitioner with 16 years of experience, mostly in the inner cities. I saw first hand how intrusive government programs are. I was forced by law to ask indigent clients the most private questions about not only health issues, but also family dynamics and home environments. Trust me, you do not want the government any more involved in health care.

Comparative Effective Research
I fthis works as it is written about in this piece, then the democrats have created a new way to play ping-pong as one columnist put thing. If you don't like something or it goes against something you are try to push, for exapmle embrionic stem sells vs. adult stem cells research just ban it. Then when the otherside get into power they reverse is. This goes on and on, back and forth. Meanwhile nothing gets accomplished and you still have people dieing for no good reason.

Rationing Health Care
leads to jobs? Of course, just think how many more undertakers and grave diggers we will need. Quality of care vs cost - not a new challenge. In the Obama administration, the difference is that the government, not the individual will decide - isn't that great? Hostile to religion, old people, inconvenient babies and common sense, what a great Father figure.

What bothers me...
Is that Tom Daschle in his book specifically said he wants to curb the introduction of new medications and technologies -- he believes these add to the cost of healthcare. Spoken like a true elitist -- someone who doesn't have to live with the decisions he makes for others.

That said, for those who say we already have rationing, I say sure, perhaps we do but it is with the private sector. You have recourse, with the government you don't -- ever hear the phrase "Can't fight City Hall?". What you get is your name on a list with a bunch of dos and don'ts that must be strictly followed. Someone else is making decisions for you, usually a bean counter, NOT you and your doctor.

However, I have a question. Are we talking about insurance or healthcare access? These are two totally seperate issues. No one has a "right" to insurance paid by someone else. However, if you have the resources, then you SHOULD have insurance.

If the issue is ACCESS to healthcare, then everyone already has access to it. Sure, some may have to wait for hours at a county clinic, or wait for days or weeks for treatment, but they have access. Is this fair? What is the solution, to make EVERYBODY wait several hours in a clinic regardless of ability to pay extra? Have EVERYBODY wait days or weeks for treatment?

Don't forget folks, Capitalism is the unequal sharing of resources while socialism is the equal sharing of misery -- except where the elitists are concerned.

I have worked hard and I pay a LOT for my healthcare insurance -- and I do take care of myself. But I'm willing to pay, so I say to all of you keep your cotton-picking hands off my healthcare!!!

Health Care free?
Nothing is ever free. In the case of health care, the Government will have to start putting restrictions in place. Great Britain has had "free" health care for 60 yrs. It is on the verge of bankruptcy, there are age restrictions on treatment - the older you are the fewer options you have, and god forbid you live longer than 70yrs of age. Alice, you think it was hard getting an appointment in you situation? I have a 75 yr old family friend who was healthy until last summer. It took him 2 months to get an appointment with his primary, another 2 months to see a specialist, and 6 wks to get a mere ultrasound done, followed by another 2 months to return to the specialist. THAT is government health care. Their elective surgicy waiting lists are 6 - 12mths. I have another family member who went to the ER, and had to return the next day because the Doctors were too busy to see her, it then took another 2 days before they could set her up for emergency surgery! Everyone here has taken for granted the benefits that they enjoy so much. Health Ins may be "expensive" but at least you get to see your primary physician within 2 days, and emergency surgery that same day.

What Did We Expect?
When we want someone else to pay for our needs, what did you expect to happen? Their motivation is to keep the cost of the program, whatever it may be, under some control. And when that cost is rising, exactly because of the way the system is designed, and they are the ones paying for it, they will do whatever it takes to keep the cost from rising even faster. That is what happens when you want someone else to pay for your needs. You have given them the "right" to do exactly what they are trying to do in the case.

andrews...
I like your plan.

Bad Analogy
To all those who argue that HMOs and government rationing are the same. Here is a quote from my blog (not yet posted, so don't expect to see it when you click on my name, not at the moment, anyway):

Allow me to rebut the HMO with an analogy of my own. If I walk into McDonald's, they have a limited menu. I cannot order black truffles or falafel. However, McDonald's is not restricting my choice, as I can walk into a different restaurant. However, if the government decreed that every restaurant MUST serve McDonald's menu, THAT is a restriction of my freedom. See the difference? I can choose to join an HMO and restrict my own choices in exchange for lower premiums, or I can choose some other coverage or pay out of pocket. Once the government decrees what coverage will be provided, I have no choice. Thus their analogy between managed care and government managed care is inappropriate.

One More Silver Lining
By killing off AARP members, the Democrats will lose a strong constituency for all sorts of increased medical spending and Social Security growth. (Not saying all old people are Democrats, far from it, but if you joined the AARP, like it or not, you give money to the preeminent moochers in the US. Just because you're older doesn't mean you have to give money to the big government lobbyists.)

And those who line up to bask in the thigh tingling glow of Obama's "free" medical coverage are likely to suffer enough cases of sepsis to thin the ranks. (After all, anyone who wants to practice medicine controlled by Washington decree is not likely the best and brightest.) So that too should reduce the Democrat ranks.

And once Obama tanks the economy and destroys the medical system, Mexicans will start flooding Canada, maybe even Costa Rica, not the US.

So it looks like the Democrat base is about to suffer a massive decline.

As long as we watch our health, so we don't need to visit an Obama clinic, there may be hope yet for a conservative resurgence.

Or maybe this buffoon will just trash the economy and hand us congress in 2010. And if we are smart enough to avoid more Snowes and others of her ilk, we may manage to dodge the bullet entirely.

(Somehow I think I am going to get some angry responses.)

Daschle stillruns HHS, clandestinely

The "stimulus" bill is a Trojan Horse filled with Socialist governance programs that would never pass the smell test were they sneaked into a fiasco of much bally-hooed impending doom being propagandized upon an ignorant and panic-driven bunch of Obamamaniacs.

According to an article written by Betsy McCaughey Feb.9 (Bloomberg):

"The bill's rules (H.R. 1 EH) will affect "every individual in the United States" (445,454,479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system.

But the bill goes farther. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information
Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and "guide" your doctor's decisions (442,446).

These provisions of the "stimulus" bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, "Critical:What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis."

According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and "learn to operate less like solo practitioners."

The goal, Daschle's book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs.

He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept "hopeless diagnoses" and "forego experimental treatments," and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system.

The Obama Socialist Healthcare Coup

John R22 Location: MI
Reply # 15
Date: Feb 12, 2009 - 8:26 AM EST Time to grow up, folks
It's time we accepted the bitter fact that our current medical system (partuclarly medicaire/medicaid) is on a fast track to financial ruin. When you look at the budget projections it's not a disaster, it's an utter meltdown.

At some point we're going to have to realize the only possible way to manage costs is to ration health care. For the over-65 crowd in partiuclar. It's what the rest of the world does and we MUST give up our childish fantasy that the elderly with get "everything all the time and all for free".
______________________________________________

The "meltdown" John describes is in the federal govt. beauracracy that runs Medicare/Medicaid, and that the Democrats would extend to the ruination of the entire health care industry.

The health care industry is the largest employer in the U.S. It produces almost 17% of the nation's gross domestic product. No failure there. Yet the Socialist-Democrat Party bill treats health care the way European governments do: as a cost problem instead of a growth industry.

They would rape the health care industry of it's profitability, in order to fund their Socialist agenda. Simple as that.

This "stimulus" is dangerous to your health and the economy.

This "stimulus" bill will affect every part of health care, from medical and nursing education, to how patients are treated and how much hospitals get paid. The bill allocates more funding for this bureaucracy than for the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force combined (90-92, 174-177, 181 H.R.1 EH, pdf version).

Rationing
"countries which already have government-run healthcare deny patients life-saving medical treatment..."

Not all. As I have said Taiwan's system is run well. Not to say I support the US going down that road as it would yes muck it up. It can't even issue passports on a timely basis. But there is already rationing in the US.

Gone to an emergency room lately? How about a hospital? Or a doctor's office? How long did you wait to see a doctor or wait to get a bed? Waiting in a doctor's office or emergency room for hours or having a doctor tell you "You'll have to make another appointment I have other patients" if your case takes longer than 15 minutes. And then the millions of uninsured who are really prevented from healthcare until they are very sick. Those that do have insurance under HMO and PPO plans have their healthcare rationed by the insurance provider and on and on. That is no less than rationing too.

John Shadegg
writes, "We dodged a bullet with Daschle, but the fight against government control of healthcare has only begun"

Only begun! Only begun? I hate to break it to you John but, the fight of which you speak is a small rear guard action towards the end of the war and freedom lost. First of all, if government is going to provide healthcare, it must control it and ration it to control the cost. The only alternative is to prevent government from having anything to do with healthcare and let the people ration it themselves as they see fit. The magical 'in the middle' compromise is illusory and can only move one direction. You simply cannot have people with the freedom to choose without the freedom to pay. Should we all get a federal visa card to use at the doctor or hospital?

It is very simple. Once the people allow the government to pay for something, they give up all right to choose among competing somethings by definition.

The only way we can have freedom in health care is the elimination of medicare, medicaid, etc. I believe we just expanded it, again.

Why don't we just decide everyone has the right to personal transportation. The cost will be pooled by the government taxing the crap out of everyone but, we want people to have the right to choose their own car. What do you think they will want? Can everyone have an SC430 Lexus? Or will the tax revenue only provide a Kia spectra for everyone? Whio decides? The guy paying always decides.

Good to hear from Mr. Shadegg
As an Arizonan, I'm happy to see John out there talking and making sense. I've been used to that. Remember Dr. Kavorkian and all the furor that went up over him assisting the deaths of people who wanted to die? Well, now we have Dr. Obama deciding that old people are too expensive to provide health care to and we should let them die. Where's the furor? You know that this new government bureaucracy is going to target expensive treatments for people, and the largest expensive health care group is the over-65-generation. Notice to old people: If you can't privately afford the treatments recommended by your doctors, get ready to call the undertaker.

Is this the fix for social security
Now we see how they can kill two birds with one stone. Environmentalists want to kill off as many humans as possible since they see us as a blight on the earth. The politicians want to kill as many seniors off as possible to reduce medicare and social security shortfalls.

We've been put into the cattle cars and are being led to the slaughter. I guess we might as well try and enjoy the ride.

Stay stong this time, John!
Mr. Shagegg is right for now. As his constituent I am reminded of his firm stance against last falls bailout which crumbled in one night. Please do better this time Mr. Shedegg. Stay strong.

Social Security Controls
It would appear Dems plan on controlling benefits under Social Security and Medicare by controlling medical procedures for seniors. We all die off earlier and quietly the Dems have saved the two programs without cutting benefits. Sadly I will be denied treatments and likely be dead so I won't be able to tell anyone how great the Dems are for managing this important change.

I thought
femenists wanted the gubbermint "out of their bodies."

Meet Dr. No!
There is nothing "universal" about Universal Healthcare.

Too old? Meet Dr. No

Recovered alcoholic needing a new liver? Meet Dr. No

Once smoked, but now found and needing a lung transplant? Meet Dr. No

Need a hip transplant, but are 10 pounds overweight? Meet Dr. No

Have a child with a 10% chance of survival? Meet Dr. No

Need medical treatment, because that Schip-covered illegal child needs cough syrup? Meet Dr. No

Need a proven, but expensive, medical treatment? Meet Dr. No, who uses a CBA (cost benefit analysis) to determine whether you should get it.

I could go on, but consider these: A British woman had to give birth on the floor because the hospital had already rationed all of the beds AND my French relatives, who pay 70% in taxes (which includes payment for socialized medicine), used to choose the US for medical care, are now thinking about Switzerland.

Lastly, when has the Government done anything correctly or cheaply?

Lesson for the day: Go look for that Social Security-Medicaid-Medicare lockbox, which both parties have looted since the begining of time. Get back to me when you find it.


Anthony
Anthony said "Most retirement plans have been very successful because the free market runs them". That might have been so in previous eras but there are far too many instances of corps. reneging on their plans in more recent times to support this claim now. That includes retiree medical benefits. I've got a pension right now that is almost certain to be cut because of my employers financial problems. So what I thought I was getting, and earned, will be reduced significantly.

Anthony
First, I have heard and read, including some first hand from citizens in Canada and France, many mixed reviews on foreign, state-run healthcare. It's not all bad or good (selective bad examples don't make the case that its just bad). But it is generally less expensive than what is spent in the U.S. If it ended up being done here, we would not have to follow any other system exactly. Basically learn from them what works well and what doesn't. We could even spend more to address some of the shortfalls and still spend less per person than is spent now.

JohnR22
Your point about Medicare and Medicaid's financial issues makes my point. They--and even more so, Social Security--are examples of what happens when the government runs things it shouldn't. Social Security is about to go broke because the government, 1), didn't do what it said it would do when it was established, and 2) didn't keep its mitts out of the pot. The unfettered free market does the same thing, but the government can stop it when the free market does it. Most retirement plans have been very successful because the free market runs them, but the government plays the watchdog role. No, it's not perfect (ex. Enron, but it's better than anything else that's been tried.

Laurie, the book you mention sounds interesting. Thanks for mentioning it.

This could get addicting!! I've got to go to work.

effectiveness research-rationing care
Grace Ann
Virginia

Effectiveness research is a good thing. We all certainly want to know what works when we are choosing a treatment in concert with our doc.

The most responsive way to handle health care choice is individual and in the best systems like the one that works in pediatric cancer you follow simple rules--use standard proven treatment first; if there is no standard that fits participate in a clnical trial to advance a new treatment; if your doc has a "gut" feeling, and it is an unproven treatment, he should have the responsibility of making it a case study with you and publishing / reporting or confer with colleagues and do a phase 1 clinical trial. This way everyone benefits. There are few insurers where options are scarce or non-existent who won't pay for participation in a well designed clinical trial--it is a win win situation for everyone.

How you use effectiveness data is the bear in the woodshed. If you use it like a scalpel to excise all expensive care, you deprive patients who don't fit the model of the care you bless, of potentially curative care.

Information and Common Collaborative Sense YES--beaurocratic garbage no.


Real Health Care Reform
An ebook by Cassandra Nathan at booklocker called "Solving America's Health Care Crisis" actually is THE plan that should be the basis for health care reform in the U.S.
To hit a few points because space is too limited here:
It puts Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP and ANYONE legally in US on a State Medical Insurance plan that is CATASTROHIC CARE PLUS.
Everyone COULD have a physical with follow up, and one necessary ER visit a year, for modest co-pays. Discounts on prescriptions, from bulk buying and negotiation would be offered.
After that, everyone would be responsible for his own medical bills UNLESS AND UNTIL he hits a catastrophic level of expense.
The plan's premiums and catastrophic level, as well as co-pays would be MEANS-TESTED so that the wealthy are not subsidized by minimum-wage workers.
If anyone has a private plan he likes better, he keeps it.
NO employer contributions. No fines.
ALL doctors and other providers automatically ON the plan and they charge what they want (how to fund it and how to pay providers without us going broke IS explained).
No pre-existing conditions or caps on NECESSARY medical procedures.
COMPETITION, INCREASED NUMBER OF DOCTORS & NURSES, and end to "provider discounts" (uniform charges across the board--major insurers would have to pay their fair share), as well as reducing paperwork all cut costs.
Uninsured more abused than public told. Read BusinessWeek's "Fresh Pain for the Uninsured."

The solution is simple
Make EVERYONE (inclding the President, the Congress, every politician) live under the same rules as they impose on us. How can it be called "UNIVERSAL" if they don't? This should make a dandy lawsuit for some enterprising lawyer.

its time to start marching
the time for this complaining is over. What has to happen now is to organize and hit the streets.Do it in your city. Organize. Don't talk, walk.

Mike D2
You're right. I did speak too quickly when I said only the military. Someone else brought up NASA, and that's another good example. But I do NOT think health care qualifies as one of these. You've raised a good question, though. Unfortunately, I can't take time to think it through and answer right now, but I did want you to know that your point is well taken. I hope someone can help me by explaining why health care doesn't qualify as one of these. (For starters, though, I'd say experience of how in other countries it doesn't provide what most of us want.)

Time to grow up, folks
It's time we accepted the bitter fact that our current medical system (partuclarly medicaire/medicaid) is on a fast track to financial ruin. When you look at the budget projections it's not a disaster, it's an utter meltdown.

At some point we're going to have to realize the only possible way to manage costs is to ration health care. For the over-65 crowd in partiuclar. It's what the rest of the world does and we MUST give up our childish fantasy that the elderly with get "everything all the time and all for free".


Smarti--PS
One quick thing I forgot to comment on and can't ignore. You mention all these other countries being free like us. Freedom of speech is being serious eroded in most of these countries. This probably has more to do with political correctness than national health care, but we need to wake up and see what's happening in these countries and make sure it doesn't happen here. I know this isn't really relevant here, and I don't want the discussion to get sidetracked, but I didn't want to ignore your comments either.

Anthony
Besides the military you don't think the gov. runs things well. What do you think then of the job done by the FCC and FAA? I think the areas where the gov. runs things best are those where there is less contention about whether it should be involved or how much. Appropriately funded for a well-supported mission, gov. can and does perform well with and without private partnership.

Smarti--3
Smarti, I do not for a minute think you are lying or intentionally misusing statistics. You are just using statistics that the mainstream media spouts regularly, which is reasonable. But I do agree with the others that they are wrong. We have greater availability of health services, new innovations usually develop here, and people from around the world come here when they need specialized care. It’s obvious to me that we have the best system in the world bar none. When people really delve into statistics like these, it usually turns out that they are not accurate. I have not taken the time to find out what is wrong with those statistics, but sometimes you just look around and know the numbers are wrong. This is one of those times. (And I know this is not a winning argument until I can explain exactly what’s wrong with the stats.) Smarti, I know I have not answers all your points. I wish I had time to say more. But I was so appalled by the answers you were receiving that I thought I had to add another voice of sanity along with Andrea’s. I just hope you didn’t give up and stop reading. I wouldn’t blame you if you did.

Folks, our system does have problems—big problems. Some of them are cause by too much government intervention, but others are not. Let’s all try to work together to try to find a solution that does not involve the government taking over our health system.

Smarti--2
You raise some good arguments in your discussion, but you are missing a couple of key points. First, the basis for the success of the free enterprise system is competition. When the government runs it, competition is gone so there is no incentive to keep costs down and services up. Our current system does limit competition some, but there is competition and employers do have the freedom to change companies, and they often do. This is often to reduce their costs, which is not a bad thing, but they also do it to keep employees happy with lower costs and better coverage. When the government runs it, it has a monopoly.

Second, you overlook the problems involved when the government runs things. Governments do an excellent job of running the military, but that’s really about it. Theoretically a government should be more compassionate than a corporation, but they are not. Just look at what governments all over the world have done throughout history. We humans are made in the image of God, but we are also fallen, and whenever we have too much power—whether a government, a company, or whatever—we get out of control. When private enterprise runs something, government is—or should be in an ideal system—there to act as a watch dog and keep the corporate greed from getting out of control. When government runs things, there is no watch dog. The more power government gets, the more out of control it gets. And this is what does happen in other countries. Things around the world are not as good as you think they are. Another problem that occurs is that a huge bureaucracy develops, which massively increases costs and paperwork and decreases the quality of services.

To be continued..I also apologize for forgetting to add spaces between paragraphs in 1

Smarti--1
Thank you, Andrea, for giving Smarti the first intelligent response. For the rest of you, Smarti is one of the few liberals who comes on a site like this and gives a well thought out argument and does it politely. Why is he being rewarded with name calling and vitriol and ignorance? Can’t we have an intelligent dialogue? You guys may not be quite as bad as the people on the liberal hate sites, but you’re getting there. Smarti raises some good questions, and he deserves intelligent answers.
Smarti, you have definitely provided food for thought. I, like you, tend to be very thorough, which results in length. Unfortunately, I don’t have time to give such an answer this morning, but I think you deserve an answer so I’m going to briefly respond to the things that did jump out at me as needing a response. I’ve never written on one of these blogs before, but this is a subject about which I am passionately concerned and afraid.
First, you exaggerate the limitations of our current system. Most people with insurance are not routinely denied services, and most people can get covered treatment relatively easily when they need it. There are horror stories—although not as bad as those you hear of from countries with government coverage—but virtually all of these happen to people with HMOs. In my opinion, HMOs are almost as bad as government coverage. But a lot of people who have them chose them because they want to pay only a small co-pay instead of a percentage. As usual, you get what you pay for. When you are paying nothing or only a small co-pay for each service you receive, many more abuses occur—whether the services are paid by the government or an insurance company.

To be continued...

Alice et al Pt. 3
We started to unravel our own system. First with Medicare and Medicaid then with the HMO Act of 1974. After that, it all started to fall apart. A bunch of people trained as lawyers got it into their head that they understood health care. They started to dictate how hospitals operate. They started to demand expanded and "universal" coverage. All this managed to accomplish was driving up the costs and driving down the quality. We're rapidly falling in quality to the UK and Canada quality levels (our system is still superior, we just don't have the power to manipulate the WHO statistics). All because we have law trained bureaucrats and elected officials making rules in a field they do not understand.

You want affordable health care? Ask the government to go f**k themselves and get out of the way. Without them, we wouldn't have to absorb the legions of administrators and lawyers expenses into our procedures. Insurance companies would not only have to compete with one another, but justify why we need them at all. There was a day insurance was only used to hedge against catastrophic injury or illness, not for a regular checkup. This was in the days before government got involved.

Cause and effect, darling, cause and effect. America's health care was cheap, plentiful and of the highest quality. Government got involved and that was no longer the case. What is the only factor that changed? Government got involved. Therefore, government is our problem, not our solution. Basic medicine 101, identify the illness before looking for the cure.

Alice et al Pt. 2
Survival rates are also atrocious. Many forms of cancer in the US are cured so reliably that they can almost be considered a routine treatment. Get the same sort of cancer in the UK, the highest cancer survival rates in the brotherhood of government run health systems, and the best survival rate of any form of cancer is just under 40%. Basically, get any cancer in a universal health system, write up the will because you're dead, or at least hope you're wealthy enough to fly to the US to get the necessary care deemed too expensive in the UK.

Accounting and finance is my purview and you'll find the key reason for our expensive systems is due to government mandates. As a cog worker, you unlikely have any access to the detailed financial records that I would have access to in local hospitals here. Do you know what the highest cost category in a hospital or local doctor's office is? Administrative costs followed by legal costs. Administrative costs started to go out of control when Congress dictated that every company with more than 50 employees offer a HMO or equivelent health carrier to employees. Legal costs went bonkers with the legal requirements to hold onto malpractice insurance (you got the insurance, you get sued more frequently because there's someone to pay off the damages).

B.S.
This allegation that the stimulus bill contains what will be a means for the federal gov. to be involved in medical treatment decisions is pure B.S. Anyone who is buying this is listening to chicken little. Look at the sky, or the bill, for yourself. Read it then comment. Text that describes benefits that would be derived from the technology use, are not statements that the gov. would participate in the process of medical diagnosis and treatment decisions. This new fear mongering is akin to the NRA's old warning that gun registration is just a way to prepare to take everyone's guns away.

Alice et al
It is nice to quote various statistics. However, like all good statistics, you need to see what makes them up. A popular one is how the universal systems created by Canada, Britain, etc are cheaper. This is a bit of a distortion as they use specific targeted defenitions of cost, primarily % of GDP and total cost spent divided out by the total population.

This is deceptive, mainly because it does little more than distort exactly what is going on. When taking the total amount spent in the health industry divided out by the total number of people actually getting care, not waiting on a list and certainly not everyone who happens to be breathing in the nation at the time, you'll find their systems are far more expensive.

Other statistics are also ignored, such as survival rate and accident adjusted life expectancies. When we remove non-health care system related problems like murder, accidents and young illegal Mexican mothers dying in the middle of New Mexico with a baby in their arms of exposure, you find that Americans enjoy the HIGHEST life expectancy in the world. A 19 year old getting shot in a gang war and the newborn illegal dying of exposure drag down the national life expectancy. The 19 and 0 year olds get tossed into the mix along with the 102 year old man dying of heart failure. A 0 seriously skews the numbers lower.

Patriotic Resistance is in Order
We all have put it off for too long. Time to take action. Join the patriotic resistance.
http://www.resist.net

Who is excluded from this bill

Those who will NOT be affected/effected by this bill from he!! are as follows and this includes their families (extended and otherwise)
president obama; joey biden;all senators past and present; all house members past and present; all fed. judges; selected friends of all the above and permanent welfare mothers, fathers and extended families.
Those included and affected/effected by this bill are those who actually work, really pay taxes and bust their humps to survive.Another group will be the so called "press", your finances, and you will loose the ability to control your life.
Welcome to socialism America. You elected this far left wing guy and in less than one month the Constitution and Bill of Rights no longer exist. For this we can thank judges,the supreme court, the senate and the house both present and past and of course those of you who voted for this far left socialist.

The Silver Lining
As an eternal optimist, I'm hoping that the inclusion of this hideous part of the bill will open the eyes of Americans before true single-payer rationing can take over.

Now it's up to the GOP. Will it have the sense and the guts to CONTINUALLY point out EXAMPLES when this rule causes RATIONING and hurts the public, especially seniors who are "too old" to be "cost effective"? Do they have the nerve to trot out the victims of rationing before the news cameras and in TV ads?

This could end up being a huge tactical error by the Democrats. If the GOP can show the public what health care rationing really means early on, we may yet be able to avoid the single-payer system.

Do you have the guts, GOP?

...

No need to go on Denise
We know you're right about this, but the trolls are going to deny it till the cows come home and the lapdog media is going to pretend it's not so as they continue to hide what their Messiah is really up to so that we won't be able to stop him.

It's time to face a few facts
OK PEOPLE, WE NEED TO WAKE UP TO THE FACT THAT A CON GAME IS BEING RUN ON US BY THE MESSIAH IN CHIEF AND HIS CONGRESSIONAL COMRADES.

AND IT'S WORKING!! THEY'RE WINNING, and we don't even see it. HOW, you ask?

It's easy, they're throwing so many outrageous, objectionable, and to be sure, Constitutionally ILLEGAL things at us all at the same time that they've got us basically chasing our tails trying to stop them, and it's working.

Think about it. They're having their lapdog media release one story at a time, telling us about some new outrage, such as his highly questionable appointees, or that's either in the "Stimulus Package," or that one of Obambi's stooges is announcing in "Press Releases," and we're all reacting just the way they want us to.

We're signing petitions, or calling or writing to our Congress Critters, or the newspapers, or anyone else we think will listen, but who actually couldn't care less what WE think.

THAT is where we lose and they win. Because after doing all of this for a while, we'll get tired of running in circles and getting nowhere, AND GIVE UP.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT BECAUSE ONCE WE STOP FIGHTING, THEY CAN JUST IMPLEMENT ANYTHING THEY WANT AND THERE WILL BE NO ONE TO STOP THEM.

Sadly, I think Rush, Sean, Mark Levin, and all our other talking head voices are missing this because Obama is REPEATEDLY publicly taunting them, and it's distracting even them from what he's really doing.

BUT GLENN BECK ISN'T MISSING WHAT HE'S DOING.
Go to my blog, or Glenn's website, and read about his NINE PRINCIPLES that will help us focus our efforts on what we need to do to beat Obama and the Democrats plan to take this country down the road to Socialism, unopposed.

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/21018 /?ck=1

WE CAN BEAT OBAMA, but not if we let them continue to divide and conquer us.

Just Die Already, Won't Cha!
There is nothing "universal" about Universal Healthcare.

Too old? Meet Dr. No

Recovered alcoholic needing a new liver? Meet Dr. No

Once smoked, but now found, and needing a lung transplant? Meet Dr. No

Need a hip transplant, but are 10 pounds overweight? Meet Dr. No

Have a child with a 10% chance of survival? Meet Dr. No

Need medical treatment, wait in line behind the Schip illegal child that needs cough syrup? Meet Dr. No

Need a proven, but expensive, medical treatment? Meet Dr. No

I could go on, but I will leave you with two diddies: A British woman had to give birth on the floor because the hospital had already rationed all of the beds AND my French relatives, who pay 70% in taxes, used to choose the US for medical care, are now thinking about Switzerland.

hmmm
i would expect expect such stuff from such low lifes as liberals. who only want to tax away everybody so they die with nothing and also have those crying out to gov for help. what jerk bas____.

Take another look
A lot of what people say is just not true. if you look closely at most regulatory schemes, you find out that someone with power and influence has pressed for laws and rules that restrain trade and give someone unfair advantages. It is not hard to see how politicians would use this system to reward their friends and punish their foes. That is the true purpose of proposals to nationalize health care. All those pols who mysteriously turn into rich men when in Congress want their cuts.
Here in Florida, governor Crist found a way to offer attractive health insurance for $150/mo and it is now being advertised by at least two companies. That ought to bust some myths.
I do know that Europ;ean countries have had to revise their health care systems. In the Netherlands, which I know well, people are now mandated to buy basic insurance and can add to it as they like. We should not adopt an outdated system that others have tried and are now abandoning.
The watchword of the market system is that the customer is always right. Without customer satisfaction there can be no profit.

Universal Health Care
As I stated months ago, NEVER listen to the explanation of Universal Health Care from the leaders of the countries in which it exists, ask the people. I did, and learned 10 years ago that it was a disaster.
UHC isn't racial at all. It is about age, and accomplishments, and ability to contrubute funds to campaigns - and definitely your political beliefs. Of course, being in my late fifties and being an Independent - who lost my job to an illegal alien - I'm just out of luck.
The other information reported throughout these years from the people living in both Canada and England is even more alarming.
It seems nonsensical to any youg man or woman to spend eight years in med school, two years as an intern...only to be relegated to a salary of no more than $70,000 per year, and allow a 'stealth' person in Washington (does not have to be an MD) to tell them what prescriptions and treatments are 'agreeable' to them.
He or she could be a vet tech and just go through two years of veterinary school and earn the same.
Apparently, the rate of Med school entrants has greatly decreased. Imagine that.

Universal Health Care
As I stated months ago, NEVER listen to the explanation of Universal Health Care from the leaders of the countries in which it exists, ask the people. I did, and learned 10 years ago that it was a disaster.
UHC isn't racial at all. It is about age, and accomplishments, and ability to contrubute funds to campaigns - and definitely your political beliefs. Of course, being in my late fifties and being an Independent - who lost my job to an illegal alien - I'm just out of luck.
The other information reported throughout these years from the people living in both Canada and England is even more alarming.
It seems nonsensical to any youg man or woman to spend eight years in med school, two years as an intern...only to be relegated to a salary of no more than $70,000 per year, and allow a 'stealth' person in Washington (does not have to be an MD) to tell them what prescriptions and treatments are 'agreeable' to them.
He or she could be a vet tech and just go through two years of veterinary school and earn the same.
Apparently, the rate of Med school entrants has greatly decreased. Imagine that.

This silly, dishonest article
doesn't deserve much comment.

Any one who writes: "this bill has everything except economic stimulus. It’s just one big, sordid payback for Democrat special interests" is either a moron or completely dishonest.

Hi Ho Hi Ho
It's off to the camps we go... or the carousel a la Logan's Run!

This is definitely Hitler's regime. All the same social, cultural, political, and economic factors that enabled Hitler to rise to power are in effect. And just as Hitler pandered to the youth and was mesmerizing, so goes Obama.

Alice - I wonder where in the healthcare industry you work to be SO misinformed. I have worked in the insurance companies, hospitals (government and for profit), provider practices and with home healthcare and hospice companies. In IT. So I KNOW what the government mandates do to ALL of them. Government is the root cause of the costs. Government LOBBYISTS contribute via underhanded deals for your honorable leaders on the hill (Like Mrs. Obama's pay increase when Obama made Senator!). Isn't it funny that Obama is appointing those evil lobbyists to cabinet position?

You and SmartJ - just what do you think is going to happen when your hero can't deliver on any of his promises? Those of us with brains know he never planned to. What then? Civil War? He's calling for a "civilian national security force". Why do you think that is?

Thanks to you and your brainwashed comrades, this will be the next POLICE STATE. And i'll be watching from a tropical island far, far away.


planting ground
You are so angry, frustrated and almost irrational; did someone do something to you or have you always foamed at the mouth?
-You denigrade foreign MDs; I have worked with many who are wonderfu and exceptioally knowledgeable. The nephrologist I work with presently hails from India; I would have absolutely no issue in having him for my MD and I would gladly send family or friends to him for care.
-You rage over "control over private healthcare" by the government. The government has set standards to protect the citizenry at large. A modest amount of regulation helps to ensure a standard of care and employ a "best practices" philosphy of care which seeks to utilize the most competent and up-to-date knowledge.
-Malpractice suits are brought by people believing they have been harmed; I don't like them, but they are a fact of life.
-Government spending has given us NASA and several trips to the moon; the Hubble telescope. Government spending has given us great roads, bridges, state and federal parks.
Government spending has given us the research to find treatment and cures for diabetes, cancer, kidney disease, heart disease, HIV, SLE,
glaucoma, organ transplantation methodology.
Government spending has given us more border patrol agents, a healthy, but tired military.

Planting ground, my ethics tell me I should help you and I will if you show up at the door where I work. I would never want or wish to deny anyone care that could cause them disillusionment, disablemnt or death. I went into healthcare to help people in need; I let others sort out the money issues. I find your lack of compassion disheartening, unChristian and unAmerican. In this country we have always cared for others in need; I will continue my work with joy and be thankful I am not so angry.

Smarti and Mitch
Smarti, those countries you mentioned have had government controlled health care so long, they probably don't know what they are missing. So, of course, the residents are not going to complain. Certainly none of those countries have the advanced diagnostic procedures and treatments that we have here. This is because of the freedom (and incentive) in America that the medical field has to innovate. That type of innovation will be struck down in a single payer, government run health system. And, yes, rationing by government bureaucrats will be worse because they are even further removed from the people than private companies and they know less about health concerns.

Mitch is right, third party payment is the reason for our sky-rocketing health care costs.

http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/AboutUs/ArticleView.aspx? id=2317

When people aren't paying out of pocket, they tend to use services more. Perhaps even more than necessary, but certainly more than they would if they were paying up front. When I didn't have health insurance, I thought twice about running to the doctor about every little ailment.

national health care
Excellent, if frightening, article. We need more publicity about the health care rationing going on in Britain and Canada; Americans who believe a government-run system will be "free" and high-quality are delusional.

Planting ground
Thanks for the support, now only if I could get enough funds to run for office ;P

Mitch,
You make a good point, and it deserves serious consideration.

Not very Smart(i)
Constitutionalist dogma?!? You lying anti-American jackass, that "dogma" is the reason you have the freedom to spew your subversive pap! And that 37th stat you cite is based upon coverage rates per capita. Everyone in socialist societies is covered. Who are you trying to fool, fool. And they're covered very badly at that. Have you ever seen a working man Britain's dentition? Have you never questioned why Canadians come here for urgent care? You are a liar, and a danger to those who would listen to you, because you cite statistics out of context, and make your arguments without referencing what EXACTLY they refer to.

For that matter, your first sentence of your last post is a blatant lie as well. The countries you cite as having freedoms similar to ours have no such thing. They are all taxed to the point that the standard of living of the most well off of them is comparable to our own lower middle class. Their middle classes live at a level that qualifies for government assistance here (fancy that). Their government run healthcare systems engage in rationing (as is inevitable in such a system), long waits, and in the Nordic countries increasing pressure to hasten the deaths of their elderly to relieve the pressure upon the healthcare systems. YOU ARE A LIAR AND A PROPAGANDIST.

Yes, private companies do make mistakes. That is why they fail in a free market system. They should fail. When government gets involved in helping them, it creates distortions in the system that are felt system wide. Then people like you point to that as a reason to nationalize the system. Your philosophy is not only dangerously wrong, it is evil.

If you think that government control of your healthcare, and as it's consequence, government control over you, is good for our country, then you are either a brainwashed fool, or a Marxist tool. You are not convincing anyone on this website. You'ld be better off stroking your comrades at the Daily Kos or the HuffPo.

BOTH are at fault!
I'm going to be the first conservative to say this, but its everybody's fault. Government regulations are part of the problem, and the greed of the biotech and insurance companies are the other. And guess who's left getting screwed, we all (liberals and conservatives) are! Medicine shouldn't be $100 here when I can get it for $20 in the Caribbean.

What needs to happen is that Health insurance companies need to disappear, that is the answer that we all need. Without health insurance companies artificially inflating prices, health care costs will come down. It will then be totally up to the dynamics of supply and demand.

A doctor somewhere in midwest recently tried this, and he is almost making the same amount he used to make when he was using insurance. It can work. All we need to do is lose the fear of not being able to afford something because its not covered by insurance.

As for the poor that really can't afford it, give out medical stamps to help them get treatment, the same way they receive food stamps to help them get food.

If you're Conservative
...move to a Red state and bolster the ranks of the conservatives there. If enough conservatives are elected to state office then Red states can reclaim their stolen 9th and 10th Amendment sovereignty. See this story:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=88218

Sad to say, Southern
but if these Nazi's continue in their unconstitutional criminal activities we may just witness some of this stuff.
There are a lot of American's who have been praying and interceding for this country but because this nation chose death over life as personified by Obama and SARAH, God will/has lifted His Hand from U.S. He will not allow
this country to continue to slide into Hell although it may seem like Hell for a lot of people before they fall on their knees and seek Him. I believe all this trouble has been caused by the rebellion of our people for decades and the real turning point was 1973..
God has a problem when his little ones are harmed..something was said about millstones..well we're in for it now since the
anointed tin god proclaimed a worldwide contract on preborn babies, and with this
so called Health provision..stretched abortion to really late, late terms. Yes, this will answer the SoSec and Med problem quite nicely.

alice
Several years ago my husband lost his job and we were too young for mediughcare, so when we needed to see our doctor..we went and paid fee for service. It was tough but we cut something else.
You seem to think the taxpayers owe you, just like the Katrina people (I won't call them victims)in NOLA you wanted daddy to bail you out.
I would willingly help someone who couldn't help themselves but that's not the majority
of Obamabots.
The Republicans and George Bush wanted to
reform our health care and while letting those retirees keep medicare and social security let the younger people start medical savings accounts but the Nazis in the DemonRat Party
stopped it cold. THAT's real health care freedom, you, not some paid DemonRAT thug in D.C. decide your treatment with your doctor.
And as for the cost and closing of hospitals, blame your Obama and the rest of the political elite (including Bush and some Republicans) because we have been overrun with illegal invaders. DUH!

Payback
LuLu #18 i have a better one, News headline to read Terminal Ill Senior Citizen pulls cord on explosive vest at major Democrat fund raiser,All 35 prominate Democrats killed

re: Tony
The octuplet mother has nothing to do with this as far as whether or not she is receiving public assistance payments after the fact. That's a whole 'nother debate. Assuredly, under a national health care system, her fertility treatments wouldn't have been covered to begin with : )

And Tony, I work, pay my taxes and have coverage. A portion of my taxes and coverage dollars goes to cover those without coverage who utilize emergency treatment as primary care and can't foot the bill, which gets sent to Medicaid, which is paid for by us working taxpayers. Socialized medicine we do have, but the more expensive, less efficient kind. Additionally, you seem to have a profound misunderstanding of how insurance works when you state why should you pay for others. Your insurance premiums don't sit in an account waiting for you to claim them back when you need them. Your insurance premiums pay for other users in the same group, and they in turn pay for you. The problem, is that your rates are high because your group is small compared to a nationally based system so your costs are not spread as well.

Also, your insinuation that everyone who works and pays taxes therefore has health coverage is pretty ignorant of the facts that the majority of uninsured ARE working and paying taxes.. but don't have employers to provide coverage and can't afford high monthly premiums. There is no "choice" here, it's a forced situation.

Who Says we are 37th in the World
Who says we are 37th in the world for providing health care? The UN? And why do the wealthy and privileged come to our country to get the medical treatment they want from the best doctors in the world? At least for now.

re: planting ground
Last time I checked, Britain, France, Sweden, Japan, etc are all freely practicing democracies with freedom and liberties very similar to ours. Changing our health care system may offend your philosophy but it will NOT change us into the old Soviet Union or into China. You are blindly following constitutionalist dogma by refusing to acknowledge any problems whatsoever with our health care system. As to your claim we have the "best" health care, check again. We are 37th in the world for providing health care to our citizens.

Yes, many of our current problems have resulted in some bad government regulations regarding health care. However, private companies make bad decisions all the time yet you are not advocating for the abolition of private enterprise. The problems with our system that I have outlined are NOT due to government regulation but to the nature of the system itself. I'm sure we can go into malpractice insurance (definitely an issue needing fixing) but you have not provided any counter argument to any of the points I brought up as to what you will be losing under our current system, other than some vague fear mongering about our "liberties".

Private enterprise is great for most of our situations. Health care is not the automobile or banking industry however. Providing treatment and care can directly conflict with making money, making the decision making by the profit seeking insurance industry a bad bet for the consumer. This is not about rights, this is about doing what is best for our country.

to smarti
Why should those of us who work, pay our taxes and have great health coverage be forced to not only receive a standard of health care that you require but now I am expected to pay for your non-working a$$ and yo baby mama also.

Lets look at the idiot in California who just had octupletts with no means of finacial support. First she denies that she is receiving any assistance and come to find out she gets $490.00 in foodstamps amongst other government support. She has now set up a web site begging for help. Her mother swore she was moving out and her father was last heard saying he was headed back to iraq where he was in the military.

Free Health Care
If people REALLY think Obama is going to give them a house, a kitchen, a car, a job, etc. Then yes the majority of the voting public REALLY thinks they are going to get government health care for free. They will be lining up to get this "free" health care at which point it becomes excessively expensive and rationed.

Tony
Thank God, those of you in and graduated from our military recognize the threat.

Current System is Dem's Fault
Just go back to the 1930's when the Federal Government run by Democrats that admired Stalin limited wages. If companies were limited to the amount of wages it could pay they had to figure out a way to attract a better employee by "paying" them more. So what did they do, they began to pay for health coverage. What is the result? Americans now expect a company to pay for health coverage. If the individual is not paying for health coverage then why would they care how much their health care cost? For the majority they don't. Once this has happened they have subjected themselves to someone else paying their medical bills and are in their mercy. Corporations and Insurance companies have to show some mercy to an extent because the employee can go somewhere else or sue. The all powerful Government doesn't have to show any mercy-none, zilch, nada. It merely needs only to pass laws. Laws such as mentioned above because their incentive is to have as few people qualify for any type of treatment. It's the law. Get it?

Where is the Constitution?
There is no RIGHT to healthcare, anywhere in the world. Setting up strawmen, and then knocking them down, without addressing the issue of Constitutional governance, is only an effective strategy for those who can be suckered in by "smarties" to surrender the freedoms they have always enjoyed in this country. Almost every issue anyone can raise regarding our health care system is due to government interference. We still enjoy the best healthcare system in the world, although it appears that distinction will soon fall to the juggernaut of socialism.

Our government was set up to preserve and protect our liberty (a word you will NEVER hear uttered by a leftist), not constrain it. If any of you lib posters think that your freedom and liberty will not be constrained by government control of it (via control of your health care or any other aspect of your life), then you are lying to yourselves. More importantly, you are lying to everyone else as well.

You will be the death of this nation if those you support are not stopped.

free health care?
Opponents of national care systems also denigrate the proponents of such as advocating for "free" health care. I don't know any advocate of national health care that believes treatment will be "free" under such a system. Right now, those with coverage pay for their coverage in the form of deductions from their paycheck, or in lower wages in the case of your employer paying for it (your coverage is part of your wage), or for those without employer based coverage, pay out of pocket. If coverage was deducted as a tax (and would likely be a lower tax than your current premiums), why would this affect you any differently? Is it due to the philosophical difference of paying a tax vs paying a premium?

Again, I am not stating nationalized health care is perfect. I am however questioning the defendants of the status quo in their use of language regarding choice and privacy. If they are being honest, then they know we do not have those things under the current system, and would not be losing either under a different system.

Again, I would refer people to look at other systems under Sweden or Denmark that are using a hybrid system and experiencing good results. I am asking people to be intellectually honest about the many shortcomings of our current system and not be blind to better, more practical alternatives in order to serve a dogmatic philosophy.


to: Coldplaylover...lol
To you and all the people who think like you just pack up and move to the "EU". I swore to defend this country and constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. If the fools in DC decide to try and stuff much more socialism down our throats, a few of my buddies and I will take it to the hill locked and loaded.

Murder, Inc.
This administration will soon be called Murder, Inc. So far the Liberals have killed 40 million innocent babies, now they will set upon the elderly like a pack of wolves. This is unconscionable for a so-called 'civilized society.' And these people call themselves 'progressive;' I call them savages. These people simply must be dispatched, and as quickly as possible, because they are devils. When I wrote to the three degenerate RINOs I asked them if they were now part of the Liberal womb-to-rocker murder scheme. Naturally, I received no answer from any of them. I think those who value human life should try a page from the Democrat play book and raise so much hell that it cannot be ignored. This is the most dangerous and most corrupt administration that has ever ruled the nation. It must be stopped.

If You Think Health Care is Expensive
Now...Wait until it's free!!! (PJ O'Rourke)

about choice last
4) Finally, another fine choice brought to us by our current system: the choice between high premiums and low(er) deductibles and copays.. or slightly lower premiums with much higher deductibles and copays. What a deal! Either way, it costs a lot more than it should. And, as discussed earlier, there is NO guarantee that after paying the insurance company these premiums and deductibles that will pay for you claim! It's a win-win for them, and a lose-lose for you. Even if they do pay it, for many people, it involves a labyrynthian game of fighting with beurocrats, filing endless paperwork, while of course still getting billed and sent to collections for the service in the meantime.

Is this the choice you are defending and protecting us from losing?

Nationalized health care is NOT perfect, but advocates here that are against it are simply not being truthful in the fact that the majority of citizens (all other industrialized nations) that live under nationalized health care find our system appalling, they are healthier, have longer life expectancy, their national health care costs are CHEAPER per capita, and not a one is going into bankruptcy to pay for unexpected health conditions! There are even countries practicing some hybridized form of coverage, such as Denmark and Sweden, and have seen their costs decrease. We need to be honest about our current system's many problems, and be open to new solutions, that may involve, a blend of government and private, or 100% of one to the exclusion of the other.

about choice 4
3)If one single conservative cannot admit that the current system of health coverage paid for by employers has not helped to kill jobs in this country then they are fooling themselves. Health coverage kicked in by your employer is not FREE, it is part of your wages. Most employers now only pay a portion of coverage now anyway, so most employees are also paying for coverage, many deducting out of their paycheck each month. Why is this acceptable to conservatives, yet the idea of paying for same coverage, deducted from your check as a TAX throws many into a tizzy. Fact: if every single person is covered under the same plan, said coverage has a LOT larger pool and is therefore cheaper to cover as the costs are spread over one enormous pool, then the current system of many, smaller coverage pools where costs are not spread as well. What about those who are not lucky enough to get coverage from employers and are forced to buy coverage in a market that has been overpriced by the employer-employee cost sharing system? They become the millions or so uninsured/underinsured who simply cannot afford it, and are one medical condition away from financial ruin. How about the small business owner/employer that is burdened with this expectation? For all the money spent in providing health insurance coverage, it could be put back in the owner's pockets as profit, or it could go for paying higher wages to their employees, or it could go for opening additional job. Bottom line, the only people profiting from the current system or the insurance companies who are guaranteed incoming revenue, that is overpriced due to the current cost sharing system.

So the "choice" here is, preserving our current system of health care under a misguided need to be dogmatic about economic philosophy, or preserving our economy and jobs?

about choice 3
How will this be different/better under single payer or universal coverage? Well, you still will not be 100% in control of your decision making regarding care. However, as conservatives readily admit, government is not in the business of reducing costs, yet private insurance companies most definitely are. If you cannot see the direct conflict of interest in an insurance company that is responsible to its shareholders to produce profits vs it's supposed mission to pay for care and treatments of its customers then you are blind to your market economy dogma. I am all for market based solutions for most goods and services in our economy. It does work to our benefit the majority of the time. However, I am not beholden to the "market is god" philosophy and that it is the only solution for every situation. In the case of health care, profit motive is in conflict with providing care, and we have allowed insurance companies to place profits over our care, and many will go blue in the face defending this practice as somehow being in the "spirit of America" because you have been duped into believing nationalized health care will somehow issue in the gulags here in the good ole' USA.

about choice 2
2) How about the choice you feel you currently have full control over regarding treatment options? All the time, conservatives couch this in the language of "between you and your doctor". Baloney. Your treatment is absolutely mediated by your insurance company, and decisions go through a labyrinth of bureaucrats who based that decision on cost effectiveness, and the bottom line of the insurance company. A final decision, especially in the cases of life-threatening conditions, can be mediated at the top by a board of insurance-company paid doctors, who have gone on record in congressional hearings stating that they are PAID BONUSES the more CLAIMS THEY DENY. Talk about market incentives... Insurance companies have pages and pages of rules and hidden, obstructive ways to deny you your coverage that you have been paying for them to provide when you need it. Even better, if they do approve a claim initially, they then actually spend legwork researching your medical history to find any at all reason to go back and deny that claim. So much for the privacy of decision making between you and your doctor, EVERY aspect of your treatment options is going to be controlled by your insurance company, not YOU. Doctors and hospitals are forced against providing treatments they themselves know are beneficial because the insurance company forbids it.

about choice
Just a few questions for advocates of our current GDP eating health care debacle: Most advocates of the status quo refer to a loss of "choice" and "privacy of decision making between patient and doctor" that we would presumably lose under nationalized health care. I have a few questions regarding these "choices" and "decision making privacy" that some folks feel that they have:

1) If you feel that socialized health care will eliminate your choice of doctor or hospital, I ask you: under your current medical insurance, are you really free to see "any" doctor or visit "any" hospital anywhere, anytime? Of course you're not. You are limited to the doctors and hospitals that are in your "network". Going to outside providers would result in your coverage claim being denied (resulting in exorbitant costs to you), or you will be denied care at the outset by the provider. Oh, you had a life threatening situation and didnt' have the ability to "choose" your in network provider/hospital and were instead routed to the most convenient, sadly for you, out of network hospital? Too bad for you, your insurance company doesn't give a dam* and you will be holding the bill, or your family if you have the misfortune to die at an out of network hospital. Is this the choices you are afraid of losing under nationalized care? Guess what, under a single payer system, you really would be able to freely choose the doctor or hospital as they would ALL be covered under a single payer system.


Devious Democrats
Devious Democrats
It is one thing to have differing opinions, but to hide such an important issue in a spending bill is beyond devious. They are stealing our Liberty without debate. Any courtesy that I had for this Obama is gone. The dems are all worms, with the disgraced 3, Spector and the 2 morons from Maine.

The Devious Dems and their Culture of Corruption & Hypocrisy!!!

Get 'em, ground!
Alice, you are a mindless twit. I doubt you do much work at your job because you're probably standing around talking about how bad things are and instead of seeing the total picture in a free market system, which is being flushed down the toilet and replaced by socialism/totalitarianism. You sound like yet another mindless drone, sitting on your fat butt, waiting for Lord Obama to make your life better.

Alice I don't understand
why you just did not go to a doctor outside your network and pay out of pocket. Why in the world so many people think they should not pay for healthcare is beyond me. I used to routinely pay out of pocket even with health coverage because it was easier than worrying about HMO rules. I would just call the specialist I wanted to see and make an appointment.

Alice
As to your reply, you could have seen a doctor anywhere if you paid for it out of pocket. It is simply not true that you couldn't be seen. You had trouble because your policy was lousy and you didn't want to foot the bill yourself.

I notice that you freely admit that you provide service to anyone who shows up on your door. You undermine your own argument right there. While I believe there should be an element of compassion regarding emergency care (and it is mandated by the government), you cannot dispute that this is one of the primary reasons hospitals are closing. Almost anyone can afford coverage of one sort or another. Get a health savings account (another good idea liberals are trying to do away with). Yes, you'll have a high deductable, but you're covered in the case of serious injury or illness.
Perhaps my frustration is better aimed at your political philosophy than at you yourself, although I'm not sure how you can seperate the two. The bottom line is that we have a Constitutional system of government that has allowed the American people to become more successfull as a whole than any other people on the face of the Earth in history. That system of government is now under a full fledged assault from the left. The government does nothing well, other than make war, and they don't even do that very well any more. The ONLY government spending which has ever proven stimulative is military spending. If you think your healthcare under government control is going to be better, you're delusional.

Alice the fool
I neglected to make another very important point, that you Alice, working in the healthcare field should be acutely aware of. A great deal of the high cost of health care is a direct result of the high malpractice premiums doctors pay. A neurologist I know, a highly competent individual who has never had a claim filed against him, pays close to 50% of his total income in malpractice insurance. Thank the out of control tort system for that, not the medical field. Yes, there are bad doctors,just as their are incompetents in every field of endeavor, and their victims deserve some sort of compensation to help weed out the incompetents numbers. But in typically inane government fashion, competents are forced to help offset the cost of incompetents. Add to that the fact that it is too easy for people to sue a good doctor for not restoring someone sick or injured to perfect health, and you have one) a system which becomes unnecessarilly expensive, and two) a trend of competent doctors leaving the field because they spend too little time helping people and too much time worrying about lawsuits and government compliance. This results in more foreign trained doctors, largely trained by less competent schools, moving in and providing more substandard care because they can make more money here than in Pakistan. It becomes a vicious cycle. Try to find a native doctor in England where this has been going on for years longer, and good luck.

Once again, thank the very government that you want to give more control over your and my healthcare both. More control over you, which you seem okay with; and more control of me, which pi$$es me off royally.

Planting ground
I do not know what you do for a living, but you discount those of us with healthcare experience if we state facts not to your liking.

3 years ago, BCBS and Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta could not come to terms on a contract. That left ~150,000 patients, myself included, looking for new MD. Not all of us have out-of-network benefits as part of our policy. I took me 3 mos of calling to find an MD taking new patients who would also take my form of BCBS; then I had to wait 2-3 mos to get an initial appointment. If I had been a previously established patient of theirs, I probably could have been seen within several days. There was several local TV stations that covered this situation and all the problems it caused. Please don't call me a liar for telling you a truth you don't like.

The 47 million is a stat used by a number of reputable media outlets and by healthcare entities who tract the uninsured. The illegals are the least of our problems presently. It wouldn't matter anyway, because, I will provide care for whoever shows at my door, as do most healthcare practitioners.

As for staffing, healthcare practitioners (nurses, MD, RD, PT, OT, etc) are so overworked and underpaid that many leave for more lucrative jobs and better working conditions.

Healthcare need not be a for-profit entity to survive. Everyday, people die waiting for care that is covered by their policies, but they were denied coverage. Earlier this year, a young woman with liver disease died waiting for the appeals process over a covered service that was denied to her. Why? So, the executives could get their bonsas. No one, including you should die so someone else can make a buck!


KILL THEM AND KILL THEM FAST
SAVE MONEY!

SAVE TIME!

SAVE ENERGY!

KILL PEOPLE BEFORE THEY GET HERE

KILL PEOPLE BEFORE THEY NEED TO LEAVE HERE.

SOUNDS LIKE A WIN/WIN

FOR PERVERTS WHO RUN THE SENATE
FOR PERVERTS WHO RUN THE ADMINISTRATION
AND ALL THE PERVERTS WHO PUT THEM THERE!

HAVE A NICE 4 YEARS...FOOLS!

ROWDY BOOTS

LU--LET'S ORGANIZE...WHERE?
ROWDY BOOTS

SAVE WHALES, DOLPHINS, OWLS--NOT PEOPLE
So,

Reality hits!

We can now wonder how much money THE POWER ELITE will use to save thier own perverted butts when they need "special care".

PEASANTS BEWARE!

For that is what they view us as--Peasants and not competent to take care of ourselves.

OBAMA VOTERS: NEVER, EVER LET ME HEAR YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT YOUR LACK OF HEALTHCARE, YOUR LACK OF HORNEY OWLS AND OF COURSE:

LET THE GANGS IN PHILADELPHIA KILL AS MANY CHILDREN AS THEY WANT

BUT

LET'S PROTECT THE CARIBOU AND SNAIL DARTERS--THEY ARE MORE IMPORTANT--

GOD WILL SURELY MAKE YOU PAY A BIG PRICE--FOOLS!

ROWDY BOOTS

Alice
The reason premiums are high is because the government meddles with the insurance system; mandating unneccessary treatments and forbidding interstate bidding and by a hundred other petty rules and regulations that have as their goal more government control. Your second point is equally invalid for the same reasons. For that matter, where in our Constitution does it say that you are entitled to care you can't afford. Grow up.

If you can't be seen tomorrow by a doctor you don't live in the US. Your third point is a blatant lie.

Hospitals are closing because the government does nothing to control illegal immigration. That's not rationing dolt, it's feckless government. Likewise, buying a crappy insurance policy isn't rationing, it's a poor decision of an ignorant consumer.

Your 47 million stat is another lie, because it includes 30 million illegals and otherwise mostly people who choose not to buy insurance, as I did myself when I was young. It also includes people who are uninsured for only a month as they change jobs. Your dishonest arguments make you look like a fool.

Fewer doctors, nurses, etc. are the direct result of government interference and predatory lawyers. You have your sites aimed at the exact wrong targets, but that is because you're a bleeding heart moron with your head up your backside.

Lastly, the insurance business is a business, like any other. They have a fiduciary duty to make a profit, yet still manage to provide coverage for expensive care at relatively reasonable prices. If you have an issue with that, you should move to Cuba and enjoy their wonderful government run system. It's not for nothing that Canadians come here for urgent care dumba$$. Mental midgets like you are killing this country, and when this country descends into chaos or civil war because of Marxist policies like B.O. wants to implement, YOU and your ilk will be to blame.

Health Care Board
It would probably surprise nobody if alleged wife-beater and murderer Michael Schiavo is consulted to serve on this board. After all, he is a major donor to the Dems and shares their beliefs on euthanasia...particularly through starving a disabled person to death because they can't speak for him(her)self.

ALICE IS RIGHT ON TARGET
The next addendum or amendment to this horrific health care fiasco will be EUTHANASIA, outright or via refusal of medical and medication treatment, that promotes and hastens our death.

This, of course, will decrease the government's expense of paying us our social security (taxed) that you worked your whole life for.

Perhaps, if we do NOT die, or when we are of no use and an unwanted expense to this horror of horrors of governance we will be sent to the GULAGS ALREADY BUILT in the southern states that are under the control of FEMA and our social security checks will taken for expenses to die there.

I wonder why they are built in the southern states. Does Obama think the south will secede again? There are several states other than the southern states who are claiming their sovereignty, while we still have our U.S. Constitution, from the rule of socialism which eventually morphs into communism?

THIS CAN VERY WELL HAPPEN UNDER THIS PRESIDENT, WHO MODELS HIMSELF AFTER LINCOLN, AND USES FDR'S BLUEPRINT TO GET AMERICA OUT OF A RECESSION THAT SENT AMERICA INTO THE "GREAT DEPRESSION."

Amyone organizing against this?
Please, if anyone has suggestions to organize against this, please post. I am one lone conservative voice in our liberal public school system; NONE of my colleagues has read a single line of HR 1, but blindly follow the NJEA's prompt to support this travesty for the $$$ it might provide to our schools. Bus to DC? I'm in. Call the legislators? Done! Call a talk show? Done! Donate to Heritage Foundation? Done! Speak to my colleagues and watch their eyes glaze over?- futile. The apathy described by Chuck Scummer Schumer is evidenced by his and Kerry's very presence in the Senate and will kill us all if we can't stop this.

Until the mass of population
is ready to say "we have had enough and we are mad as hell and we're not going to take this anymore", and basically STORM D.C. nothing will change for the better. Someone, somewhere needs to pull the mass together ( someone who still has a set of balls ) to storm the capital and get our country back. Until then, this will only get worse and all the whinning on all the blogs will change NOTHING!

Where in the bill
are these 'scary' provisions?

We already have RATIONING of healthcare
-We have insurance preminum so high, they are not affordable - that's rationing.
-We have drug co-pays so high, patients do without needed meds and not everything has a generic equivalent or is on the $4.00 list at a number of differenct pharmacies -tht's rationing.
-We have people who cannot find a doctor who will take new patients or when you do, have to wait 3-6 mos for an initial appointment-that's rationing.
-We have hospitals closing everywhere; there are communities where the closest hospital is over 100 miles away-that's rationing.
-We have patients who have covered procedures denied by their insurance companies and die waiting for the appeal process to work-that's rationing!
-We have 47 million + people with no insurance, therefore no access to healthcare, except in a local ER, if that. That's rationing.
-We have fewer and fewer doctors entering interal medicine and family practice because the reimbursement rates are so low, they can't afford to practice. That's rationing.
-We have fewer and fewer nurses, dietitianS, PA and NP working to augment MDS therefore the wait for care is longer and longer. That's rationing.
I have spent the last 30+ years in healthcare and access is not getting easier for those with inadequate or no medical insurance coverage.
I don't think anyone, including myself, should have to be forced to get insurance from a for-profit company that puts executive salaries and bonsas ahead of care.


I'm thinking
the first thing any elderly person should do that is denied care is decide to take a politician or health bureacrat with him. Let them live in fear as we all will be not knowing when someone will decide it is our time to die.

Well I won't shed a tear
for anyone who voted for Obama if they or their loved ones are denied care. I fear for and pity the old, disabled, and seriously ill who did not vote for Dear Leader. Personally, I will no longer be spending any money beyond the minimum so that I can save for my family and I to get treatment overseas when the government tells one of us it is our time to die.

BTW, I just heard on the radio that apparently this bill makes zillions of acres including highways national park land meaning no guns.

It has begun they are going to decide who lives and dies and take our guns so we can't protest the tyranny.

What I would like to know is will politicians and their families have their care rationed? Most Senators are seniors -- how much are we spending to keep Teddy alive a few more months. I'm thinking Obama as a smoker (as am I) should be denied most medical care as he isn't a good risk. Also, are we going to use actuarial tables meaning gay men who live 20 years less than straight get cut off from care sooner? How about black men who on average die much younger than whites, Asians, and black women? just saying...

Logan's Run
This is starting to sound like Logan's Run.

Spencer
You are truly an idiot. Nothing is as important as your life. Over the years doctors have developed procedures and testing that can save lives. Now to threaten them with sanctions if they do too many of these procedures and tests because the cost too much money is disgraceful. Our politicians just signed a bill to spend money on a bunch of pork projects that will basically do nothing but you think that letting people die to save money is a good thing. I guess you have never had a loved one that lived because of the skill of a doctor. I wonder how you would feel if a doctor told you he might be able to save your life but the government thinks its too expensive. A life is worth saving no matter what the cost.

Why do you on the right
always have to make people afraid? Rationing! My heavens. I had a friend tell me about rationing in the EU, yet I know people in the EU who have seen nothing of the kind. Who should we believe...the fear mongers (who want everything 'rationed' on an ability to pay basis--if you can afford it, you get it, otherwise, you are f'd, that's rationing they understand and love, lol), or those who live within the system in the EU?

Rationing for all??? I bet not!
Not to worry. I am sure that our Congressional "Leaders" will be exempt from health care rationing. After all, why should they be "constrained" by limits developed for their "subjects". Sure wouldn't want someone like Barney Frank to be denied care, as he is so important for our continued well being of our Republic.

Control
It's all about control: people control.

Spencer from CA
Don't be an idiot. The government is in NO position to make decisions about what treatment is "effective." Secondly, many of the people who decide to pay for the "cutting edge" treatments provide the research and practice opportunities that make the procedures more effective and less expensive.

And while you may LOVE some of the decisions that you agree with, the fact is that we will have turned over ANY RIGHT or POWER we have to argue decisions with which we do not agree. And believe me, there will be plenty of decisions with which you will not agree. You need only look at the kinds of decisions insurance company bureaucrats make, to understand that.

Some here may have heard of the English NHS (National Health Service) regulation that caused such a hue and cry there: the Board decided that an older person suffering from macular degeneration had to go BLIND in one eye, before they could receive treatment in the other. That is insane, and that is precisely the kinds of decisions we will get if we adopt Daschle's crap in this bill.

The MAD Provision-Must Accelerate Death
The MAD Provision (Must Accelerate Death) in the stimulus package and who calculates the ToToT?
The liberals have created a MAD provision and inserted it into the 'stimulus package'. This was undoubtedly dreamt up by Napoleon the pig from George Orwell's Animal Farm, (i.e., "Some animals are more equal than others."). Apparently a faceless bureaucrat or Panel of Pigs - (PoP) will get to decide who get's healthcare and who doesn't. It is claimed that a Return on Investment calculation will be made based on the expense of the procedure and the life expectancy of the patient. Let's call the negative result of this calculation the ToToT (Too Old to Treat). One can't help but wonder what other factors will be considered in this calculation?
Voting Registration (party preferences).
Gender (women live too long collect too much SS)
Ethnicity (asian women live too long collect too much SS)
Social Security underfunding resolution
Medicare underfunding resolved (deny care people die faster)
Accelerate the collection of estate taxes (those with means)
Indigence waiver (those likely to vote for liberals will get care)
Religion vs Atheism.

What information will be available to the Whitehouse via their control of the Census and will that be linked to health care decisions? "Some animals are more equal than others", indeed. How does Florida Senator Bill Nelson justify denying healthcare to the elderly? If you are dead you don't get social security checks or require medical treatment. That's and interesting approach to reform Senator Nelson. I don't recall seeing it in his campaigning. Senator Specter is this your version of a "Final Solution" to the elderly problem?
Rest in Peace ToToTs.
Does Nancy Pelosi think euthanasia is good for the economy?

I vote for rationing for COLDPLAYLOVER
and Spencer

some thoughts
for those who believe nationalized health care is the only way to go, consider this; I live in Detroit, MI and I have family that live in Canada. When a Canadian cousin needed life-saving heart surgery he had to come here, to America to have the surgery because hospitals and doctors in Canada were not qualified/experienced enough to perform the surgery. My sister, who works in the hospital to which our cousin was admitted, said Canadian high-risk mothers are sent routinely, here to America because Canadian hospitals cannot provide the care needed to high-risk newborns and mothers. The fact is, the government of Canada has agreements in place with medical facilities in Detroit to provide treatement for Canadians that the Canadians cannot get in their own country. So, where will we Americans go when the government forces out (by all their interference) all the specialized phsycians we now have, and the care we need cannot be had here any longer? What will you do, when it's your child, or your spouse, or your parent that is put on a waiting list for years upon years, only to die waiting? What will you do if you're a pregnant woman who's ultrasound shows a Down's syndrome child and the government says it will not pay for any care at any time in that child's life? What will you do if your mom or dad, or husband or wife has a bad car accident, falls into a coma and the government decides the cost of the care needed is too high for them to pay, so they decide to pull the plug?

And lastly, how is it that the very same people who advocate abortion on demand (because it's nobody's business what a woman does with her own body), and all the folks who screamed the government should leave the decision to pull the plug on Terry Schiavo to her husband and her family, are now saying we need to have the government "review" every course of medical action/treatment?

Rationing.
Sounds good to me, not spend money on hopeless treatment. The HORROR!!! But, but, I want to spend thousands and thousands of taxpayer dollars to prolong my life a month. Forget it. If you want to spend thousands and thousands of YOUR OWN money to prolong your life a month, go for it.

rationing?
are you serious? 8 babies born to an unwed mommy are being cared for at the rate of about $10,000 per day, thanks to you and me.


Why restrict the killing to fetuses?
Add legalizing the killing of the elderly to the killing of the unborn to this administrations accomplishments.

Here is an idea
Since the Democrats are intent in ramming this legislation through, we need a way to "means test" the "effectiveness" of "Comparative Effectiveness Research."

Only the left and Democrats seem to have no problem with this approach so those who are registered Democrats should be the first to fall under the guidelines of this provision.

Any bets as to how long before it falls silent in a cubby-hole, never to be heard from again should it be so mandated?

Republicans should immeidately make this case, it would be so much fun to watch.

If They Aren't
any smarter than they are acting right now, maybe they'll forget to get your guns and bibles away from you before they do this!!!!!!

Rep. Shadegg,
am I hearing correctly that the compromise bill still has the health care regulations in it?

From Betsy McCaughey's article: "The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs. He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept 'hopeless diagnoses' and 'forgo experimental treatments,' and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=colum nist_mccaughey&sid=aLzfDxfbwhzs

Is it too late? Does the federal government now have the power to limit our freedoms in the area of medical care and practice, even forbidding the development of new treatments?


If They Aren't
any smarter than they are acting right now, maybe they'll forget to get your guns and bibles away from you before they do this!!!!!!
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