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Sunday, September 21, 2008
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
From Bank Bailouts to Auto Bailouts?
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- In the 1994 elections, Republicans ended 40 years of Democratic control of the House of Representatives. So in 1995, a vice president of Fannie Mae wrote a letter to Ed Crane, president of the Cato Institute, saying that Fannie Mae intended to give that libertarian, free-market think tank a $100,000 grant.

Politics produced Fannie Mae. It was created by the government in 1938 to further the government objective of increased homeownership. It was sold -- semi-privatized, sort of -- for a political purpose: to help President Lyndon Johnson finance the Vietnam War. Fannie Mae has no objection to interventionist government; the regulatory state created and cosseted it. And it has always known which side its bread is buttered on -- on both sides, by taxpayers, through the implicit federal guarantee of Fannie Mae's obligations.

But in 1995, Fannie Mae, attempting to ingratiate itself with conservatives, approached Cato with cash, thereby proving that it understands libertarianism no better than it understands subprime mortgages. When Crane responded that Cato never accepts government funding, he received a starchy letter from Fannie Mae hotly denying that it was in any way a government entity.

Well. The implicit federal guarantees -- which enabled Fannie Mae and another "government-sponsored entity," Freddie Mac, to swell up with more than 11,000 employees and $5 trillion in mortgages -- have become explicit. Was Fannie Mae cynical or delusional in 1995? As government entanglement with our less-and-less-private enterprise system increases faster than at any time since the 1930s, remember: Good fences make good government -- fences that clearly demarcate the border between the public and private sectors.

The Financial Times, which is not normally droll, recently began a story: "Tim Geithner is without doubt the most active investment banker on Wall Street these days." He is president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. The deals that he and other government officials have brokered, with the backing of government money, may be prudentially necessary because failures of certain financial institutions might congeal the flow of credit that must lubricate recovery. What, however, is the excuse for the corporate welfare for GM, Ford and Chrysler?

Ford's assembly plant in Louisville, Ky., is participating in that corporation's struggles. The Toyota plant in Georgetown, Ky., is flourishing as part of the other American auto industry. It is located largely in the South, employs 92,000 Americans and is not in the toils of the cost structure Ford and GM negotiated with the United Auto Workers union. Lemon socialism -- the subsidization of the weak -- is supposedly needed lest a U.S. automaker file for bankruptcy, causing the sort of civil disorder and social chaos that accompanied the disappearance of Studebaker, Packard, American Motors and others.

Detroit is striking for subsidies while the iron is hot -- while the 37 electoral votes of two automaking states, Ohio and Michigan, hang in the balance. Where is the "partisan rancor," which John McCain deplores, now that we really need it? He and Barack Obama agree on the corporate welfare for the three Detroit mendicants. Obama perhaps believes that lemon socialism is better than no socialism at all. McCain, reacting viscerally, sees everything as a moral melodrama; his economic thinking, which really is nothing of the sort, owes more to Moses than to Adam Smith. In McCainism -- the politics of "honor" -- there are no mere mistakes; they must also be dishonorable, because corrupt.

Anyway, taxpayers have been conscripted into subsidizing $25 billion of government loans for Detroit, which says that sum is nice as an appetizer, but hardly a meal. It wants more.

General Motors' full-page newspaper ads brag that it (with the coerced cooperation of taxpayers) is "completely reinventing the automobile." This is no more convincing than GM's broadcast ads that say it is offering customers its employee discount "in celebration of our 100th anniversary." Celebration? Of what? The fact that a company hemorrhaging money must discount its products?

Detroit says, correctly, that some of its problems stem from fuel economy and other mandates imposed by the 535 automotive engineers on Capitol Hill. But that is beside the point, which is: No one thinks that the failure of an auto manufacturer would pose systemic risk to the economy. Americans would just buy a different mix of cars.

In "The Communist Manifesto," Karl Marx marveled that, such is capitalism's dynamism, "all that is solid melts into air." Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch should not be the last to learn the truth of that.

(Disclosure: Mari Will is a consultant for the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association.)

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Mr. Will
I am a staunch conservative. Don't you think it's a small conflict of intrests for you to write this column? I see by the disclosure that a family member works for the competition.

Loan Detroit all you want...

In a decade they'll be asking for twice that amount.

They are Democrats... They spend money.

Our Money!

We were not born to breastfeed the UAW alcoholics.

Karl Marx!
Love him or hate him, he was a brilliant mind.

Ok. First, the government seems to be nationalizing the financial institutions to the tune of $700 billion dollars (we taxpayers just purchased them with our tax dollars... so Congress now will manipulate this to both democratic and conservative ends for YEARS... yes, we are all socialists now).

NOW, the american auto industry wants IT'S handout. WHY are we even contemplating giving these has-beens assistance? GM, Ford and Chrysler make products that NOBODY IS WILLING TO BUY in a capitalist free marketplace. By the Darwinian laws of the Free Market (surivival OF THE FITTEST) the american auto industry LOST. People chose Toyotas and a plethora of other foreign cars. Why should american taxpayers be forced to resuscitate a dying corpse?


The U.S. really needs to nationalize our oil companies if we want to get into the socialist game profitably. The citizens of the United States should reap EVERY PENNY for our natural resources: coal, oil, gold, whatever! Politicians should never let private corporations privatize profits from America's natural resources. These same companies now have precedents for asking for a $500 billion dollar handout when times get bad. Our own U.S. workers should extract coal and oil. The United States should benefit from ALL PROFITS, to be used at our own pleasure (repairing infrastructure, helping to pay for a nationalized healthcare, etc).

This is now a WORLD ECONOMY. There are certain jobs that have left that are NEVER ever coming back (not when China and Korea can do it much cheaper). We must reassemble. We must adapt. We must now also look out for our american brothers and sisters.

From Bank Bailouts to Auto Manufacturer
It would be easier to criticize the auto makers about their lack of compliance with free enterprise if the federal and state governments had not been interferring for the last fifty years.
Although some of Detroit's problems have been because they were lead by bean counters instead of car guys, our government has done a real job on them.
Example: There are Ford and GM cars in Europe getting 40 to 50 miles per gallon. Those cars weigh less because the bumper laws require some element of safety for pedestrians. Here they weigh more because we need to protect against drivers who can't manage to not run into the rear of another car. It is taking Ford two years to redesign and retool the European models for sale here to pass U.S. requirements. No chance they'll egual European model gas mileages.

Another example: GM pays out $78 million a year for Viagra to the union members. You wonder why Toyota isn't union?

If one expects companies here to stick to free enterprise, they should be allowed free enterprise. If they fail, let them.

To Robert (Ranger29): Don't you tire of addressing every issue as "Bush's fault"? What in the world did he have to do with a bunch of risk managers not doing their jobs? This crash resulted because too many citizens were looking out for themselves instead of their companies, stockholders or their country.
Kent

Karl Marx????
Dear Will:
India and China have been successful because of their turn to private enterprise.
China is already losing manufacturing jobs to Vietnam-- it's cheaper there.
Socialism has never worked. You are just not convincing.

So taxpayers help the union break
the company, that they may charge us higher prices, that the foreign car makers can send home billions, that the line workers in the US get sixty plus a year, that they have a medical retirement program only second to the goverment workers who passed legislation that started all this in the first place.
Don Jones
PoeSpirits.com

I had the same thought today George
So I clearly have to agree with you. So many pin-headed government projects can be put at the feet of General Motors that it boggles the mind to think of them as capitalist enterprises.

So long have they been so ineptly run by a string of gutless managers who have allowed the owners of the company to be coined cheap by the demands of psychopathic union members that the only reasonable thing is to let it, and Ford and its pal Chrysler, die an undignified death at the hands of the market.

But it won't happen, people would rather believe in the myth of things like the "Volt" than the reality that GM and the rest simply have not known how to build a decent car for at least the past 50 years.

Chrysler was saved when the government put incredible tariffs on the cars of their Japanese competitors. This only made the Japanese build better and more luxurious cars that commanded higher prices and made their makers more money than ever. Meanwhile, Chrysler became so useless a builder that even the world's best car maker was dragged down to the level of Chrysler before Daimler got out with its hide barely intact.

Capitalism is about competition. Every-time the government prevents competition, the consumer gets screwed.

Will is right, next up; the not dead enough domestic auto industry is going to be the next bailout. The reason; any idiot knows that if they can't make money in boom times, then they are doomed when the wake-up call that American consumers have just been given keeps them from selling their bloated piles of mis-manufactured junk at any price. They have survived until now because America was drunk on cheap credit. Today is the start of the end of cheap credit.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

national securiy
Be it a good thing or bad, the "big three" are a matter of national securiy.... In case of widespread war, they are the ones who will make tanks and ATV's among other vehicles for the military (including aircraft), who do you think did it during WW II??... If they go under, it further weakens our ability to defend ourselves. Let us not forget to make sure we can defend ourselves, (for those who intend to do so!)

On the other hand...
... how good an idea is it to sit back & watch the entire automobile industry move overseas? Then no shoes, TVs, or cars made in the USA? What next, no food grown here? We're already sending billions overseas for gasoline. Just how great a country will it be when no one can build a die or design an engine?
Detroit sorta saved the place when it retooled for WWII. Maybe we ought to think twice before shipping out all the nuts & bolts that are necessary to make a civilization run.
We don't grow bananas. We could end up less than a banana republic once we're all out of cash & our credit is no good.

Will
I have read every word written by Karl Marx. I cannot think of one that could be called brilliant.

His philosophy was flawed because he did not understand how the dialectic really worked. His economics was wrong because he thought that Capitalism was at it zenith at his time. His economics depended on the existence of capitalism. Capitalism is the only known economic system that is self-sustaining.

The biggest thing that Marx and Obama have missed is that humans have natural rights, and one of the most important of those rights, is the freedom of the purse. When you take away the right of a person to earn and spend money as they see fit, you take away one of the fundamental drivers of what makes humans human.

It took the most moronic group of people on the planet, anarchists, to throw Russia into 80 years of slavery, tyranny, and fear. Marxism is so fundamentally flawed, that those are the only tools that can coerce men enough to accept the concept that they have no rights at all.

You sell yourself cheap if you think that Marxism (or as Marx called it 'socialism') is an answer to anything but servitude and misery.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Heads I win, tails you lose
To the left, capitalism is to blame for any economic enterprise that can or does fail, including socialistic ones like Fanny Mae. Of course, without government intervention and manipulation of the relevant markets, Fanny Mae would have expired without fuss long ago. Regardless, the left now argues Fanny Mae's failure demostrates that even more government intervention, manipulation or outright control of markets is necessary.

Following this argument to its logical conclusion, one clearly sees the left's economic vision for America: A completely socialistic economy whose failures, regardless of their cause, prove that capitalism doesn't work. But this is illogical, for if capitalism is stamped out of our economy, how can it be blamed for economic failures? The left will think of something; their pronouncements are not constrained by fact, reason or logic.

We voters must work together to keep power from the left lest our economic liberty succumb to their Orwellian fantasies, i.e. our Orwellian nightmares.

This last week has me really worry.
The last thing I want to see is Obama with a Democratic Congress. I wouldn't mine the guy winning if Republicans held at least one house of Congress. I really think this country needs divided government until this crisis passes over the next couple of years.

Ranger/Robert

I really CAN'T beleive I am agreeing with you. This is a FIRST.


THe Detroit Auto makers
are being bankrupted by the unions, who like the politicians in Washington, believe in a free lunch.

Let them go bankrupt.

VicII
Is this nickname the same person as Vic?

Prosperity follows accountability
When there is no penalty for incompetence or greed, they will increase. The American auto industry, from top to bottom is shot through with both. The unions struck for unrealistic rewards during periods of artificially high sales. Management bought them off with Ponzi scheme solutions, knowing they would be retired on golden parachutes before the chickens came home to roost. Let them fail. When Reagan lwoered the boom on the Air Traffic Controllers. it sent a shock wave through the work force that blackmail would not be countenanced. Business took off, as corporations realized they would not be penalized for success. When accountability is removed, why do what's best for business or govt? And so the corruption and incompetence multiply as individuals in power do what is best for them and to bell with their responsibility to do a good job. And solve a disaster with govt bailout? Its crazy, leading to more of the same. From New Orleans, through the rascals in DC, to the boardrooms of enterprises driven into the ground, only accountability for failure produces success.

Does anyone
understand the post by Ranger? Does Ranger?
Three lines, two "Bush's," and a Ranger in a Pear tree.

Pistol
Yes, it's me. One of the times I got kicked off it would not let me come back because "some one already had that name".

We've been here before
Privatizing profits and socializing loss through government intervention in the market. I think this has been tried before by someone... Mussleman? Mussleghetti?... No... Mussolini! That's who it was!
Hey you want a real solution: Repeal all business regulation. Repeal all business safety nets. Repeal all laws protecting unions. Nationalize the Federal Reserve. Reinstitute a gold standard for the dollar. Shoot Ben Bernanke. Strangle Hank Paulson with Ben's entrails.

no bailout for auto guys
They have had 30 years to change their product and actually compete with Honda and Toyota, but failed to do so. Why should I care whether they get bailed out now?

If they do receive loans, I want to see the checks in my hands that pay it back!


Unions are the real problem
By and large the Unions have outlived their usefulness in this country. Initially their purpose was to protect the workers from horrible working conditions and low wages that existed 100 years ago. Now they are self serving entities that extort monies from business, drive consummer prices up, and blame their failures on the free market.

If the unions were smart they would partner with business but that won't happen. The union leaders manipulate their membership for their own means. Its not about labor anymore its about power.

American Labor Unions will be the death of American Industry as we know it. Many successful business have been bled dry. There will be more.


Bloefeld, very impressed, if you have
read every word of Marx (I assume you mean Karl, not the more profound Groucho?)as you say, and we will have to trust you. Your comment rang true to me. You must have consumed vast quantitities of caffeine to wade through Charlie's BS.

I would add (not having read every word of Marx=my disclaimer) that Marx was fundamentally wrong about everything because he was a materialistic reductionist, that is, man is only homo economicus, we are what we eat. If you believe that, then workers and das kapital are only disposable chess pieces on the bourgeoisie chessboard.

But pure capitalism is not much different.

Both need to place highest value on the human person. Big difference: Marxism always leads to stalinism/maoism; capitalism often cooperates with freedom, which is different from pure liberty.


Will/CA; Jeff/CA
Will of CA, I think this is the first time for me to agree with you, but you are correct, it is obviously a world economy. I love my corolla built in the southern US.

Jeff/CA: Yes, some auto industry probably needed for national security, but why this unholy trinity? As GWill said, we would soon get over if we trimmed at least one of them.

Sad to see both zer-obama and mcain pandering to MI and OH, but politix ain't beanbag. The first requirement to be a good POTUS is to win the election.

McCain to run health care just like Wall
Street, completely unburdened by regulation.

McCain wrote in Contingencies, a trade publication for actuaries.

"Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation,"

"So let me get this straight,"...."He wants to run health care like they've been running Wall Street. Well, Senator, I know some folks on Main Street who aren't going to think that's such a good idea."


Remember the NUTJOB on the
debate stage that the GOP LOVED to laugh at?

Turns out he was right after all.

Ah...Sweet vindication.

Ron Paul 2008!

Enough already!
Enough already! The bucks stop now!

Where are we today on
this issue? Yesterday we debated endlessly on two factors on the Phil Harris thread. That was credit card debt and the mortgage credit mess. These issues are totally different and related only in the fact that someone has to loan somebody else money. Most consumers are more familiar with credit card debt and much more willing to blame the credit card companies for their being in over their heads because many more people are in fact in over their heads with this kind of debt. It is simple human nature to avoid admitting it is your own fault that you screwed up. The “devil made me do it” has been an argument for the defense since Adam, Eve, the apple, and the serpent.

Then there is the mortgage mess and the “bailout”. The liberals, which includes the subcategories of the news media, the Democrats, and a lot of the posters on this site who are subcategories of the Democrats, all blame “deregulation”, Bush tax cuts for the rich, evil CEOs, and evil capitalism.

Meanwhile, the real causes are government interference in the banking industry through regulation, creating government banking and mortgage institution to foster socialistic policies, and in several cases in these government institutions, outright fraud. Yes, in those cases we are talking evil CEOs but it is funny that the liberals never speak of them since they are FOB (friends of Bill).

The fact is that both Bush in 2003 and McLame in 2005 warned of an impending mess on this issue and both presented regulatory reforms that would have headed this off before it got to where we are now. Both times the reforms were blocked by the Democrats and a few liberal RINOs because these reforms would have taken away the socialist programs.

cont..

pt 2

Now the Dems point the fingers at the people who wanted to fix it and hold hearings so that they can bloviate and blame the Republicans even louder. You would think it would be up to the “free press” to expose this for the lie that it is, but judging from the report this morning on Fox news by Caroline Shively who spoke of “deregulation”, don’t hold your breath waiting on the press to give us anything but Democrat talking points. The press doesn’t have “investigative reporters, they have paper readers.

Pesky
Change your handle to "PeskyLies", it fits better.

PianoGirl
Yes we saw Ron Paul on the Cavuto show yesterday. He was in that category that I complained about being “nutjobs” with Dennis the spaceman from OH.

What was his solution and did he agree to the bailout or disagree? No, he had noting to say but a long winded rant about the gold standard and fiat money, neither of which have ANYTHING to do with this mess.

Ron Paul has not changed and he once again demonstrated why he got no traction with anyone rational. He is still a NUTJOB and will be lucky to get reelected this time to his district.

GEOORGE WILL --BAILOUTS........
Most all of these Trillions of $$$$$$$$ would have been unnecessary if:
* Sarbanes/Oxley provision for personal liability of Officers/Directors had been rescinded or suspended for 12 months;
* FASB 157 provision to MARK-to-MARKET would have been rescinded or suspended for 12 months;
* SEC UPTICK rule would have been reinstated and NAKED SHORTING prosecuted;
The economy and financial institutions would have had a breather timeframe to workout mortgage situation, thus avoiding all the "overdone" writedowns forced by accountants/auditors pressuring executives to CYA!!!!!!!!!
Law of UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES........OR NOT???

King Lib: again a first time for
me to agree with any of your posts.

Except you say that the GOP no longer fiscal conservatives; truth is, they never wuz. What is called economic conservatism is actually Adam Smith liberalism, economy being 'liberated' from royal control.

What we call economic liberalism, is economic ultra liberalism, that is, socialistic liberalism. Niether one is perfect, but i prefer the former. Economic conservative/liberalism never resulted in the Gulags.

GEOORGE WILL --BAILOUTS........
Most all of these Trillions of $$$$$$$$ would have been unnecessary if:
* Sarbanes/Oxley provision for personal liability of Officers/Directors had been rescinded or suspended for 12 months;
* FASB 157 provision to MARK-to-MARKET would have been rescinded or suspended for 12 months;
* SEC UPTICK rule would have been reinstated and NAKED SHORTING prosecuted;
The economy and financial institutions would have had a breather timeframe to workout mortgage situation, thus avoiding all the "overdone" writedowns forced by accountants/auditors pressuring executives to CYA!!!!!!!!!
Law of UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES........OR NOT???

Problem?
The left-wing nutjobs should love the current crises, our government expanding socialism! Our current problems are simple proof that capitalism and socialism can't exist at the same time. It is my position that every single socialist program in existence in our government be scrapped and that the federal bureaucracy needs an immediate 75% reduction in size.

Government belongs on it's side of that fence. The current mortgage crisis was brought on by federal regulation. To wit, in 1993 the Clinton administration and a number of it's leftist allies demanded "equality" for minority and low income people in obtaining credit for home loans. Today we are seeing a record number of foreclosures and banking problems because the practice of "redlining" was deemed discriminatory. Government interfered with sound business practices to satisfy leftist demands for equality and we have what is going on now. DUMB! Government does not belong in business, they can't handle our money, they don't get anything right, they couldn't lead themselves down 100 feet of straight sidewalk without screwing it up.

THE BANKS AND MORTGAGE COMPANIES WERE DISCRIMINATING, BASED ON THE APPLICANTS ABILITY TO PAY OFF THE DAMNED LOAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and to our Marx lovers posting today, Marx's premises were flawed in every way. He envisioned a system of government funded by capitalism while decrying capitalism and the individuals that make it work. South and Central America are proof of that. Capitalist for 10-20 years to build up the money that socialists require. Once in power socialists promptly sink the economy and enslave their populations. The country collapses and the next armed revolt takes place. Oscillations into stupidity, that is what socialism is all about.

America now worse than the Soviets were!
Yes, Krushchev was right while pounding his shoe on his desk at the UN in the 60's, he said that Americans will accept Communism and not even know it!

Of course how can Americans know the difference really between free market economy and Socialism/Communism if its public schools don't really dare to teach such?

Yes, America's ever so slowly and steadely falling in love with Socialism/Communism, has its beginning over a century ago when this Federal Government imposed public education upon the American people.

In principle, what is public education other than Socialism/Communism, period, may I ask? In reality if in our public schools they would teach otherwise it would be teaching against public education.

Yes, public education was needed to keep Americans dumb so that all the other numerous Socialistic/Communistic programs could be imposed upon the American people were easily.

Question: Of all the numerous Socialistic/Communistic programns now in force, how many if any has ever been submitted to the American voter for their approval? The answer is: zero!

Yes, the Editor of Townhall recently send out what amounts to an SOS stating that America today is in complete financial bankrupt condition at the tune fo 53+ trillion dollars, due to all these many Socialistic/Communistic programs, now in force.

Yes, he urged all of us readers to contact our politicians in Washington to urge them to get on the ball to to do something to reverse course! I say good luck!




"...more to Moses than to Mises'' rather
--
Mr. Will says that:

"McCain, reacting viscerally, sees everything as a moral melodrama; his economic thinking, which really is nothing of the sort, owes more to Moses than to Adam Smith."


No, the more accurate reference in this election cycle emphasizes the difference between Crash Test Johnny and the only economically *SOUND* and accurate Republican Party candidate for the presidency:

Ron Paul.

Whose economic perspective is informed by way of the Austrian School professionals, notably Ludwig von Mises.

The Rockefeller Republicans - the rottenness-as-usual court party "American System" festering Whig sonsofbitches represented so perfectly by Keating Five member John McCain - are the malefactors who have gotten the nation into this mess, not by *DE*-regulating (as the Obamaholics keep yammering) but by establishing governmental regulatory meddling in the marketplace that has enabled the Rockefellerite RINOs' plutocratic patrons to shift all fundamental liability to the taxpaying private citizen while they rake off for themselves (and their trust fund offspring) amounts of valuta requiring scientific notation to track.

Ron Paul has called this. Loudly and explicitly, emphasizing the nature and severity of this crisis from the moment he began campaigning for the GOP presidential nomination.

He was precisely right when he began bringing it to the public's attention, and he's being proven precisely right *NOW*.

The diagnosis is cancer, high-grade and in Stage IV metastasis.

This damned thing is going to kill us if quacks like Barack Hussein and John McCain get away with applying their same old snake-oil nostrums and not-worth-a-Continental counterfeiting crap.

It's not a matter of whether you *WANT* Dr. Paul, you friggin' idiots.

It's whether or not you can survive without him.

--

PeskyFacts
You really haven't been paying attention have you? Did you even read Will's article - or just impulsively regurgitate like most leftists? This whole crisis on Wall Street was caused by government’s interference in the housing markets by implicitly insuring Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae (in an attempt to social engineer home ownership for minority & lower income families, i.e., higher risk individuals that otherwise couldn’t afford mortgages). I leave it to you to learn which administration imposed these changes (hint, Clinton) and what party has oversight (hint, Barney Frank).

The truth is, what party now wants to do to health care what they have done to the housing market?

I will agree with many of the writers however, both parties are culpable. But the republicans are culpable because they are governing like the central planning, socialist, democrats, instead of free market libertarians that allowing the markets to work.

Bloefeld
I actually think I learned something from your comment. I have not had the time to read Marx in my life and have always wanted to be more informed about his positions. Thanks for providng your insights.

King Commie
When the 5 or 10 liberal Republicans, otherwise known as RINOs, join with 45 or 50 Democrats to block common sense legislation designed to prevent fraud and economic collapse you can certainly blame the Democrats. Socialism is the mantra of the Democrats, the RINOs are nothing more than Democrats with an (R) after their name.

The fact is 95% of this disaster is the fault of Democrats with 5% due to RINOs joining them. It is 100% due to trying to adopt socialist policies.

Jeff, you wrote...
"national securiy
Be it a good thing or bad, the "big three" are a matter of national securiy.... In case of widespread war, they are the ones who will make tanks and ATV's among other vehicles for the military (including aircraft), who do you think did it during WW II??... If they go under, it further weakens our ability to defend ourselves. Let us not forget to make sure we can defend ourselves, (for those who intend to do so!)"

BALONEY!

Ten years ago big steel was making the same argument. Bill Clinton stood by and watched 30 steel companies, including the second-largest (Bethlehem Steel) go belly-up. The steel plants are still there and are still producing steel. The only difference is they are now being run as profitable businesses instead of welfare programs for the unions and the executives.


VicII - No, this is hard-core GOP...
--
...malfeasance.

American political history is full of paradoxes, and one of them is that the political parties today have - somewhat - swapped places in terms of fiscal, monetary, and economic policy.

Believe it or not, prior to 1896, the Democratic Party was the bastion of sound money (backed by massive reserves of real, solid, circulating gold coin and none of this "elastic money supply" Federal Reserve counterfeiting crap), low import tariffs and other excises, *NO* personal or corporate income tax, strangulatedly small federal government headcount, and none of the "civic improvements" pork project crap with which the Republicans have been screwing the nation ever since they were calling themselves "Whigs."

The fact of the matter is that the Democrat Party "went over to the Dark Side" in a big way, growing *WORSE* than the Republicans in the "Progressive" era, finally culminating in the astonishing christlessness of FDR's fascist "New Deal."

For the most part, the Republicans - like clueless criminals finding themselves overwhelmed by a new mob having moved into town - have just gone along for the ride, objecting now and then to methods but *NEVER* voicing any real dissent as to motives and objectives.

The Democrat Party (now properly called the "National Socialists") having blotted out all trace of fiscally responsible presence within their own satanic ranks, left real American conservatives -

(( We call ourselves "libertarians" now ))

- noplace else to exercise our political voice other than in the Republican Party.

Ergo men like Barry Goldwater and Ron Paul, who really never belonged in the God-damned Republican Party to begin with, and who would've been good "Bourbon Democrats" in Grover Cleveland's day.

Look it up, okay?

--

Uh George...
Your statement:
"It (Fannie Mae) was sold -- semi-privatized, sort of -- for a political purpose: to help President Lyndon Johnson finance the Vietnam War."

Actually:
Johnson debased the currency 60% to finance his war. Nixon followed suit in 1968 by totally debasing the coinage and removing the gold standard. Then, Jimmy Carter introduced us to 'inflation' entitlements, indexing and used Nixon's EPA to begin the ban on oil drilling.

As for bailing out automakers, this is purely political as well. The union lobby demands this from the politicians who take their bribe money (campaign donations) and extortion demands (union endorsements) in order to maintain their support.

What's next?
The pooblik skools are a total disaster so let's continue to prop those up.
State governments are as bankrupt as the feds but no one is talking about that...

Seems limited government was a good idea afterall, eh?

Mussolini Fascists, every last one of them. You know, "...give the people the pretense of private ownership but regulate and tax them to the point of state control."

So tell me again, we fought WWII to end the scourge of
National Socialism. Looks like we lost that war after all.
Why is it we the people have no share in the benefits but all of the liabilities? Hmmm?

Wow, you Ron Paul folks astound me
I'm all for the Constitution, and the strict interpretation thereof. Ron Paul is admirable in many ways. I wish mccain gives him a job if he wins.

but we don't live in the clouds, we live in a messy democratic republic, where unfortuantely pragmatic compromises have to be made.

mccain may be lousy, but obalmy would be disastrous domestic and foreign,

do you really want obummer's election on your consciences?

Joseph - Tsk. Void for vagueness
--
Burbles Joseph:

"but we don't live in the clouds, we live in a messy democratic republic, where unfortuantely pragmatic compromises have to be made.'


Ah, yes. "Pragmatism."

By which is meant "stumblingly inept" and "abjectly uninformed" and "theoretically unsound" and "factually impracticable" and "disastrously stupid."

That's the kind of "pragmatic compromises" to which you're making reference, Joseph?

Hm. So how the phuck did we get into this mess in the first place?

Ever give any "pragmatic" thought to that, sonny?






=====
"The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of any act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups."

-- Henry Hazlitt

To the Marx Brothers
Unfortunately, whether one espouses Free-market Capitalism or Central Planning Socialism, both err in that they view everything strictly in terms of economics.

Man does not live by bread alone.

To an economic know-nothing, this sure has the feel of the piper being paid.

SJ Doc
No, actually the Democrats signed onto socialism in the 1890s with William Jennings Bryan and his “progressive movement”. In matter of fact, FDR adopted most of his positions from this progressive movement and his advisors known as the four horsemen who worshiped all things Russian.

The Republicans didn’t start adopting the ways of the Demonrats until the liberal wing came along under Dewey in the 40s and later by the Rockefeller wing in the 70s. The Rockefeller wing so pushed the liberal views that that part of the NE liberal Republican branch became known as the Rockefeller Republicans as apposed to the more conservative wing under Goldwater. Later as the Democrat Party became more and more under the anti-war anti-American influences of the old 60s radicals the liberal Democrats who believed in a real foreign policy abandoned the Democrap Party and became the liberal wing of the party known as Neocons. So now you have two fiscally liberal wings of the party. However, in voting most of the Republican do vote logically most of the time.

As I said to King Commie 5 or 10 Republicans join 45 or 50 Democrats, it ain’t a Republican problem. I will grant one thing though, with George W. Bush getting all of his conservative things blocked and all of his liberal things passed because of these RINOs, as well as refusing to veto the spending excesses, it does make the party appear to be more liberal than it really is.

That is why I was refusing to vote for McLame until he nominated Palin.

King Commie
Since you have become an increasingly illogical and insane left winger in the past year with posts that make no sense whatsoever I will make this my LAST post to you and hereafter simply scroll by anything you post.

Yes, this is a socialist action from a socialist president. The actions were necessitated by even bigger fools and communists in your party.

It appears to me that these actions are required to prevent a total collapse of the economy. If you are your kind did not exist this would never have happened.

So my word to you and your kind, adopt Buddhism, find a can of gasoline, a match, and road. With that you will make the U.S. and the world a better place.

Goodbye

SIMPLE SOLUTION FOR U.S. AUTOMAKERS

.....Declare Bankruptcy and reorganize as a non-union shop ...

.....The only difference between GM/Ford and Toyota plants is that the US plants are under the thumb of the United Auto Workers Union ...

.....All unions are socialist tools and by nature Anti-Capitalist ...nothing will drive a thriving company into insolvency faster than an oppressive union ...check out Unionfacts.com ...Public Sector and Government unions exist to milk the ever suffering taxpayers ...they should be outlawed .....COLOSSUS

Tip of the iceburg
These bailouts now at the forefront are just the beginning. Fund and hedge managers are next, just you wait and see. So America is finally broke, surprise, surprise. And our pasty faced electorial body heals the credit crisis with what? More credit. Where were these social minded love your country public servants when Joe's Bait & Tackel Shop was smashed due to hight taxes, inflation record unemployment and government regulations. I guess Joe didn't reach deep enough into his pockets to pull out the miracle that could have saved him and his family. Joe had to take what was left of his livelihood and go fish for his family's dinner. In my opinion we deserve all we get for being the passive and fearful cowards that we have become.

SJ Doc
One other thing.

As I said to someone else this morning. I watched Ron Paul on Cavuto yesterday giving his take on the bailouts. He never answered the question. All he wanted to talk about was the gold standard and fiat money, neither of which really has anything to do with this problem.

Ron Paul never gained any traction because he was a nut and he hasn't changed.

VicII - Silly non-dissent
--
Obtusely, VicII writes:

"No, actually the Democrats signed onto socialism in the 1890s with William Jennings Bryan and his 'progressive movement'. In matter of fact, FDR adopted most of his positions from this progressive movement and his advisors known as the four horsemen who worshiped all things Russian."


*Sigh!* The date I'd quoted above (vide supra) was "1896," when Bryan and his minions took over the Democrat Party, installing "progressivism" in place of the sound fiscal and political policies of Grover Cleveland (U.S. President 1893-1897 and Democratic Party leader until Bryan's nomination in 1896).

Your argument is without content, Vic. Bear in mind that "progressivism" was a cancer widespread in American politics during the later decades of the 19th Century. Whateverinhell else was Theodore Roosevelt but a "progressive," massively and malignantly intervening in the U.S. economy?

As for the "progressive" origins of the Crooner's prolonged and agonizing New Deal, pick up Jim Powell's recent (2003) *FDR's Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression*, in which the case study is covered quite adequately.


Regarding the following of your nonsense:

"The Republicans didn’t start adopting the ways of the Demonrats until the liberal wing came along under Dewey in the 40s and later by the Rockefeller wing in the 70s."


...see the 1939 movie *Young Abraham Lincoln& for John Ford's accurate reflection of Whig (foundational Republican) politics in the protagonist's congressional stump speech:


"My politics are short and sweet, like the old woman's dance. I'm in favor of a national bank, of the internal improvement system, and high protective tariff."


Inflation, pork, and protectionism. Same-old same-old.

--

PARKER

.....Not all State Governments are bankrupt ...Texas runs budget surpluses and has no State income tax ...I believe Alaska is in the same boat ....

.....The bigest State losers are the Blue Democrat controlled bastions of CA, MI, NY etc, etc ...there must be a message in there somewhere .....COLOSSUS

fannie may
Does this mean that our gov will bail out all businesses that are going under due to mismanagment?

Wake up people, it's much later than you think.

On one hand you have noboma that WILL tax us more and more.

On the other hand we have McCain with a plus in Palin.

The choice is yours, choose wisely.

What are the alternatives?
Allow the country to continue its journey to hell?
So weaken our financial systems while sending our energy dollars to other countries that Islamicists take over the world?
How about NO ALTERNATIVES!

VicII - You're an economics ignoramus
--
Maunders VicII:

"I watched Ron Paul on Cavuto yesterday giving his take on the bailouts. He never answered the question. All he wanted to talk about was the gold standard and fiat money, neither of which really has anything to do with this problem."


Witling, "fiat money" has *EVERYTHING* "...to do with this problem."

It's how we got into this bloody mess in the first place. Are you being deliberately obtuse, or is your blindness congenital?

VicII, your conduct right now is pathognomonic of the Rockefeller Republicans in general.

You're the alcohol-swilling stonehead who is enraged at the doctor who's diagnosed your hepatic cirrhosis, and you refuse to hear from him that your beloved booze is what's now causing you to bloat and bleed and will inevitably kill you.

Typical God-damned, addictive, dead-from-the-neck-up Republican.





=====
"Money, first and foremost, is a medium of communication, conveying the information we call 'price'. Government control of the money supply is censorship, a violation of the First Amendment. Inflation is a lie."

-- L. Neil Smith

It gets deeper folks
They are now talking bailouts for foreign banks

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13690.html

SJ
You sound like you're about as deranged as Ron Paul. You can join King Commie in the road.

Goodbye Paulbot

rdk
What are the alternatives?

I'm looking into buying "gold refined by fire."

Will for president..
nice thought pattern,
I totally agree with the bottom line:
"we need to watch out for our brothers and sisters"..
that is the kind of union we need..
of course, back to reality we are under the corporate golden rule: "he who has the gold, makes the rules"..
I am still optimistic we(us) can change this!

James Madison

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."


"Bailouts" are nothing more than "objects of benevolence", the government indemnifying people and companies from the results of their poor financial decisions with OUR tax dollars.

The terrible precedent was set when Lee Iacocca successfully conned the Feds into saving Chrysler. Then we had airline "bailouts" and the NYC "bailout", and now there's no end to it.

In today's papers are reports about discussions with Paulson about "protecting" homeowners from their lousy mortgage commitments. Again.

It used to the case that one man's financial folly was another man's financial opportunity. No more.

Insanity.

The problem: American ignorance...
As long as Americans keep demanding socialist remedies, we will get more socialism until the parasite kills the capitalist host.

Preceding Karl Marx' and Fredrick Engels 10-point plan toward effecting communism, they give us a clue as to their strategy:

"Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production." — Manifesto of the Communist Party — Karl Marx and Frederick Engels 1848

Essentially, our heroes are telling us: "First we'll screw it up, then use that as an excuse to fix it." Heck, folks, it's not all that hard when you already control the education system and can train the kids to be as economically ignorant as our friends on the left.

KingLib - And you're any better?
--
I have to agree that VicII and his co-religionists are both God-damned fools and catastrophic specimens of pure pathology, more like shambling ebola victims stumbling over the countryside looking for other people to infect and a place to lie down and die.

But what are you "Liberals" offering that promises anything but horrors far, far worse?

Government interventional stupidity - regulatory meddling in the marketplace - got us into this friggin' mess.

You want *MORE* government stupidity, rammed down upon us deeper, harder, and with even more ruthless dirigisme - and that's supposed to promise some kind of cure?


Those of us whom both you specimens of socialist scum condemn as "Paulbots" are feeling rather too much like the doctors who've warned responsibly and repeatedly about the character of the epidemic sweeping down upon the community, only to be treated with contemptuous ignorance.

And now we're watching you die.

It's not as much fun as you'd think it might be.





=====
"The issue is always the same: the government or the market. There is no third solution."

-- Ludwig von Mises

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson… #2
The banks give loans to people with 720 credit scores or more however “IF” for any reason you have a score lower than that you wind up with a lender… and an interest rate from 25 to 31% not the 8% “IF” you were golden in credit. This makes 100% perfect logic for me. Them that can pay get say 6% or even better yet 0% financing. Them that actually do the work and are now trying just to “LIVE” get hit with the 25% because they are a bad risk! You are getting paid not much more than minimum wage and that is all you will get. The CEO however is collecting 900% or better and saying that is the best he can offer.


This is not right that entire main stream America has got to bail out “BAD BUSINESS” when in fact Business in America cares not one bit for the American people. Statements like Pualson has pointed out is 100% proof of that. It is all about the sheep keeping the farm sound and that is the order of things.


What they are doing is nothing more than putting a band-aid on a deep gash that should have been stitched. This gash will start to bleed again in short order and for very good reason. ONE: they will now lock up the credit tight as a drum (money will not move) and no one but the wealthy will be able to get credit. That is no car and no homes loans; just as some have suggested as middle class America cannot afford them; just pay the rent on their property. Last of all: “NO JOBS” as most of the good jobs are now off shore. Yes you have Mc Donald’s or Wal Mart and the like however they have found ways to not hire full time as that would cost them benefits. Let’s face it you can’t live on what these places pay and the price of everything keeps going up as the dollar falls!


It takes a lot of BRASS to tell the American people “you are going to pay to bail us out” and by the way “Screw you at the same time” All you do is pay the bill! Who is crying now just to stay on top?


Wrong move America; do not bail anyone of them out!

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson…
… is resisting a Democratic push to add additional help for households to the $700 billion bailout bill!


I have watched about all one can on this situation and the antics the Gov. and Congress also what the Presidential candidates are spinning. Each and every time any of them have opened there mouths nothing but foul smelling words have come out. Look; what has happened is exactly what I had predicted would come to pass. Each and everyone said “YOU DOOM AND GLOOMISTS” just are mad because you are not sitting in such a position of wealth and knowing how to use your money.


Well; from where I stand it don’t look that way now does it? Words like “GREED” and “INFLATED” are coming out of even McCain’s mouth. Employees that are way over paid have taken down AIG via bad business habits and the CEO did not know or have a clue? The hedge fund is another rip off by honorable business men when they would have put my dog in a house she could never pay for! What they thought was going to happen was France would get hung with the debt. Problem is the French figured out what was about to happen and backed out.


What does this mean? Someone has got to bail out BAD BUSINESS / GREED because the French did not. What did happen is a select group like “The Bilderberg Group, Bilderberg conference, or Bilderberg Club” put pressure on Congress to bail out this bad debt. It however went from May or Mack to every bad debt any business has! Now the Automakers and Airlines even want bailed out. The auto makers charge 56K for a new auto and qualifying the price by saying “we are only making 1500 of them” (Dodge Challenger) and it gets how many miles a gallon? This car was built for the people that have money or collect autos and “WE” should bail them out?

American Cars are Junk
American auto companies are not failing because of unions, or CAFE standards or regulation (although all of these hurt auto manufacturers). They are failing because they manufacture junk.

Look at the reliability ratings of automobiles. The top ratings are Japanese and Korean. American cars fall apart faster than Alka-Seltzer tablets.

Why? Because manufacturing cars is merely a sideline for American companies. General Motors makes far more money with it credit divisions than with its auto plants. A single bean counter with GM can use federal tax laws to save more money than any ten engineers could produce by designing a better product.

General Electric was at one time the greatest manufacturing corporation on earth. Thanks to the most overrated CEO of all time, the incomparably incompetent Jack Welch, GE is now a financial services company. 70% of its profits come from loans. With the financial collapse GE stock is plummeting and it is on its way to chapter 11.

Welch was a glorified accountant with no technical understanding of the product. Instead of improving the products, he slashed his engineering staff and closed GE plants to save money.

He sure looked good for a while, but he sacrificed the future for a quick buck.

It you really want to understand why so many old American companies just can't do the job anymore then just consider this one fact:

Jack Welch is the single most honored and most revered business leader in American today.

Yet he couldn't run a hot dog stand because there is no way to look good in the short term by firing employees. He would have to improve his product and he is clueless about how this is done.

Plug those bail-outs
I believe I can speak for many. We are, unfortunately, voices in the wilderness.

1. We want accountability. 2. We want names of those who participated in, are benefiting from this global crisis and being paid by our hard earned money, who are supposed to be working for us! 3. We want prosecution of those who violated our trust, broke the laws and have created this vortex. 4. We want a voice, who will "truly" speak on our behalf, and not rhetoric to get our vote.

Evidently, the main stream media, has no balls and in my opinion, have been sleeping and copulating with the enemy, anyway.

I don't believe tax payers, are asking fellow tax payers to bail out those facing foreclosure's/bankruptcy's

But, if the Government (uncle sam, whomever)
is putting the ball in our court, "let us play!"

Untie our hands. Throw in the life preserver and let us come up for air. "Freezing Foreclosures" for let's say, one year, gives the tax payer, a chance to get it together, regroup, to breathe.

This economic crisis is overwhelming to our entire country.

Let those who are about to be thrown out of their homes, "regroup". Let us save ourselves.

I know this goes to another topic, but it is also part of the problem and bitter disdain toward our irresponsible legislators;
More is being done to help and protect, illegal aliens/invaders, (and there are millions of them), for financial assistance, to feed, clothe, house, medically treat, not to mention, credit cards, than for hard working, tax paying citizens, who most, had extenuating circumstances, ie; medical crisis, one parent families with unforeseen calamities, etc.

A miscarriage of justice, is that the very banks and unscrupulous lenders, whom in many cases, produced an avalanche effect, are being bailed out, walking away with nice pensions, living in nice mansions, aren't worried about where there next meal will come from, etc.

It's a two edged sword.

From Bank Bailouts
The bigger picture is this: Too often, the middle class ultimately gets stuck with the mess. The middle class is seen as food by the predators of the financial industry (and they are nearly all predators). These predators come up with all kind of convoluted financial schemes to, among other unsavory things, reduce/shift risk to/from themselves, maximize profit regardless who they extract it from, charge high fees for no or next to no effort, and, in cahoots with legislators and regulators, create new or circumvent the already loose laws/regulations to enable maximum predation. They’ll even resort to collectively exploit “average Joe’s” basic lifestyle needs, such as they are, and cynically find ways to enslave them further with debt. Along with the legal “profession” they are bottom feeders who have no scruples in accessing what they see as their personal playground: the collective wealth of the middle class. Execution by garrote is too good for them.

Bail out
Hey, I spend more than I make. Can I get a bail out?

'Sacrifice for the Common Good'

'Sacrifice for the Common Good' by everyone except the Elitists.

Liberals believe their goals are Noble and Righteous. They want to elevate and defend the poor and the downtrodden masses. Liberals want to help these people, but do not wish to give up their own lifestyles and privileges.

Notice that many Liberals are wealthy and priviledged and exhibit guilt complexes because of the stark contrast between them and the poor. Rather than give up their own wealth, they become politicians or support other elitists who are politicians. Most, if not all elitists use tax shelters and off shore accounts to shield their money while laying the tax burden on others.

Liberals want the government and other peoples money to solve all the woes of the poor and downtrodden and relieve their own guilt. Liberals can then make a great show of their compassion and castigate others for not paying their 'Fair Share'.

Liberals believe their call is a 'Higher Duty' and they exchange their calling with 'Real Religion' and bastardize the Golden Rule to 'Do unto others, with others money, to help the least among us'.

Liberals then call those who resist their false compassion - mean spirited, bigoted and even question their Patriotism, for not being willing to 'Sacrifice for the Common Good.


Small but significant correction joseph-
We do NOT live in a "democratic republic", we live in a Constitutional republic.
The democratic process is used to select our leaders, who then ACT as if we live in a "democratic republic".
That's the problem in a nutshell.

Fascism, not capitalism
Fascism is a system which allows the illusion of private ownership so long as government controls all the important policies and procedures. As we move from our current fascist system to socialism (like government ownership of schools, postal service, etc.), the Marxists will lose their favorite scapegoat--the evil owners. How can the dumb masses blame the "evil" owners when their "wonderful" government becomes the owner?

George I heard you on TV this morning

You have heard the question “Does a falling tree make any noise if no one hears it fall?”
_______________________________
Likewise, “If I type a few paragraphs
and no one reads them,
have I really written anything?”
_______________________________
But I enjoyed doing it.

======
You mentioned on TV this morning that you like to write. So do I. I have printed 10 books, just for fun.

When a 100 year old book store, with a millions volumes on the shelf goes bankrupt, I don't spend my time trying to sell them, I just enjoy writing them, having them printed, and give them to friends.

It is easy to get a book printed, just spend your children's inheritance.


Large Correction Airgun
We in fact now technically live in a Socialist state.It is quite clear that only profit is privatized in America, all risk is assumed by the taxpayer. As of last week we are now all on the dole. Yes that's right, everything we worked for our whole lives - reteirement,property would be worth nothing today if this were truly a capitalist society. If not for big brother we would all be in the soup line. Sad but true.

Let's put the blame
where it belongs. It started many years ago, when the traitor Eviornuts insisted that you can’t build here, and you can’t build there.

Houses, as with everything that is for sale, is a matter of supply and demand. When I was born the population of the US was 128,000,000 people, and look at it now. But still the enviornuts did not want anything to be built so they had a place to live.

In 1955 I bought a 4 bedroom house for $16,500, my income from a great job, was $6,000 a year. Using one of the Cost of Living formulas, that wage would now be $50,000, and the house would cost $127,000.

But 5 years ago that very same house, now in much need of repairs, sold for $600,000.

The wages went up 8+ times, the house went up 36+ times, only because the traitor enviornuts were able to keep the supply of homes too low.

And I do want your response, especially from any enviornut traitor.

Let’s put the blame
where it belongs

And lets remember that people who had studied economics, and people who made their living doing and saying things about the economy, each and every time said, “A financial problem is coming a financial problem is coming.”

Then they said, “See we told you so, we told you so.”

Next comes, “We can tell how to get out of it, we can tell how to get out of it.”

Next, “See we told you, we told you.”

Then “See things are booming, things are booming.”

Well, if you economists are so smart why didn’t you use your brilliance to correct the problem before it hit, rather than after?

And you lawyers, since you draw up, or at least approve each and every document and activity of a financial institution, why didn’t you say stop.

Since the economists know how to cure a recession, they must know how to stop one. Since the lawyers know they are creating documents and situations that will cause the recession, why not just stop doing it sometime.

Of course we know the economist gets paid a lot of money to make his claims, and the lawyer is only interested in the legal system, and his wallet and his ego.

Have you ever heard of a lawyer who was interested in the Justice system, that is where as a defense attorney he insists that his client is guilty and must be punished. Of course not, that doesn’t fit the pattern.

But put the blame where it belongs, on the people who created the problem in the first place.

I have been in well over 100 escrows with property and trust Deeds, and I can assure you there was no doubt in my mind that the money lenders were sitting up this mess, and I am thrilled to find them in real trouble.

Remember at Nuremberg, it was determined that if you know something is wrong, it is no excuse to say, “But I was told to do it.” Throw them in the jail.

But I am not thrilled to see the tax payer getting them out of trouble.



What is missing from this debate?
Henry Paulson is very smart and very capable and wants to do whats best for the country.But he is a cabinet appointment in for only 2 years.The president and vice-president are nearly invisible in one of the most important moments in our history.Did the House and Senate leaders meet in the White House with the president?Paulson did not even pretend that Bush was involved and neither did anyone else for that matter.Well so much for this slacker president who took a dump on the country.

They didn’t help at all.

Here is a case where education and experience are at least part of the problem.

The people who should run the financial industry, should be me and you and the man down the street.

We each know what a loan is, how it gets paid back, and what happens when you can’t pay it.

And none of us has any reason, or knowledge of how to create Wall street and all of their criminal activity.

Somehow the people on Wall Street found a way to convince people that if you want to help Ford or GM, go to Wall Street and buy shares of stock.

Didn’t it dawn on anyone that the way to solve the auto industry problem is to go buy a car. And no one told the Auto companies to build a car that served the original purpose - a drive to the store.

They not only have built the most ugly pieces of Junk, and painted them in kindergarten colors, they are so ashamed of them, they won’t even put the name of the car, or the name of the manufacturer where it can be seen.

A few years ago I mistakenly bought a small Olds, because I loved the Olds I owned years ago. GM was so ashamed of this car, the only place the word Oldsmobile appeared was in small print under the radio.

I remember that 70 years ago, on a Sunday afternoon my brother and I sat on the front porch of our farm home, and he counted Fords and I counted Chevys. We couldn’t do that any more, no way to tell one from the other.

And I am sure the publicity and advertisement agencies will be happy to hear that for the next 50 years, I bought GM cars, he bought Ford products.

So lets forget the highly educated and experienced politicians, and have the REAL people take care of everything.

As you look at the current financial mess, can you see any advantage that the people in charge for the past 50 years, were highly educated in economics, as lawyers, and elected as politicians.


understanding big numbers
There are a third of a billion people in the USA. (Give or take a kindergarten class or two). Each time the government spends $1 billion, it is spending $3 for every man woman and child in the country. The $85 billion AIG bailout, for example, cost YOU dear reader $255. The $1.2 trillion bad debt buy back boon-doggle (BDBBBD)will cost YOU dear reader $3600. So why complain? After all saving the entire auto industry is only going to cost YOU $75. And its only money! If we run out, we can print more! HA HA HA HA HA! Anyone want to buy some bonds?

THE ARK
From the clouds of credit, it rained money for 40 years flooding the globe. Americas government built an Ark to save the world. Two by two they took on board--Savings and Loan, Chrysler and Ford, TWA and American Airlines, Bill and Hillary, Greenspan and the Federal Reserve, Al Gore and Micheal Moore, Pelosi and Reed, Bernacki and Paulson, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, AIG and Wall Street. And when THE ARK took on obama and biden, the dam thing sunk!!!!!

Will spews:
Karl Marx!
Love him or hate him, he was a brilliant mind.

Well, go live in the USSR. They are headed back that way and you won't have to fight to take that which does not belong to you. Of course I am not sure they will hand you a welfare check there.
I bet you just adored Stalin huh?

God, Guts and Guns made America free! Let’s keep all three!
McCain/Palin 08!

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

Biden shoots Obambi in the foot.
What The Dem VP pick has to say about Obambi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R20pQK5KO2E

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

I am GM/UAW
For over 30 years. That's full disclosure.
Criticisms of GM and UAW duly noted. More than generally speaking the criticism are accurate. Sometimes understated. I could write a book.
I've lived in the stimulating atmosphere of global competition all my life. All that time it was hammered into my head that if we couldn't compete we'd die. If you want a description of a long time spent in a deathbed, let me know.
Now the giants of capitalism, the masters of finance are gorging at the public trough.
Indignantly and fully cognizant of the reaction it will get, I demand the same advantages as the giants of capitalism. No more, lots less.
If the taxpayer (oh, I'm one!) is going to be on the hook for $700M (is this in addition to the amounts put up before yesterday?) then my company's request won't even be noticed in comparison. And I am proud, yes, proud dang it, that we make something even if you think it is junk. It ain't no junk bond. No junk hedge, derivative, swap, or asset empty bond. WE may lose money on every one we sell but at least when we sell our junk the customer has more than a substitute for toilet paper to show for it.
Ok. RAnt over. Just give me the dough. The moral relativism has to end. AS many of you say, we're all socialist now. What a disgusting truth.
And don't prattle about how EITHER candidate is going to make it all better. It's water under the bridge already.

Lastly, since this is an automaker/UAW bashfest I'm going to plug me stuff a little.
We DO make world class products. Unhook your head from the stories of past products and give GM a shop. That's all I ask. It's in your best interest.
Mike

jim - Blaming the economists...
--
...(en bloc) in this situation is just a wee bit too much like blaming the American Society of Clinical Oncology (en mass) for the fact that you've spent your life smoking three packs a day and now have been diagnosed with lung cancer.

Says jim:

"Well, if you economists are so smart why didn’t you use your brilliance to correct the problem before it hit, rather than after?"


First, economists in general can be parsed into normative and positive practitioners.

The normative ones tend to be Keynesian or otherwise interventive types, who hold that favored outcomes can be determined and gained by dint of fundamentally violent (coercive) government manipulation of market activities.

These are the guys who argue for an "elastic money supply" (debauchment of the dollar by the Federal Reserve System), for protective tariffs and import quotas, and for measures like the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) of 1977.

Normative economists are very popular. This is because they tell people that (with a little bamboozlement, chicanery, cork-screwing, and plain jerking-off) they *CAN* get away with doing things that are nonviable, irresponsible, and suicidally stupid.

Politicians live and die on popularity, so the only economists to whom they ever listen are the normative ones.

Positive economists - like von Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, and Ron Paul - are people who approach political economics in the same way that a physician approaches the study of clinical pathology.

They'll tell you why and how you got sick, which automatically informs you about what you can do to get better.

They won't recommend (for example) treating a case of arsenic poisoning with a dosage of lead sulfate.

Which is what the normative economists have been doing, and which they're presently continuing to do.

As in medicine, you need to find the guys who are both factually sound and willing to tell you the truth.

Right now, that's Ron Paul.

--

can't edit -dang
B! Should have been a B as in 700 Billion, not Million.

para_dimz
I would say that the justification would be comparable if the auto industry was tied into every other industry in the country AND the government said that you had to sell a minimum percentage of your cars to dead beats who would not pay for them AND who said you have to finance the loans to the dead beats out of a division of your company like GMAC AND if you failed to do this they would not allow you to retool periodically AND the government provided the CEO for GMAC from friends of Bill.

Then when your company failed you would be in the same boat.

The sad fact about the auto industry is
that it would be better for them and the rest of the country for them to go bankrupt.

The new auto companies can rise from out of the ashes as non-union and they will be compeditive.

The government hasn't broken the auto companies, the unions have.

The sad fact about the auto industry is
that it would be better for them and the rest of the country for them to go bankrupt.

The new auto companies can rise from out of the ashes as non-union and they will be compeditive.

The government hasn't broken the auto companies, the unions have.

No worries
The communists with limp wrists want to add more of the same mess that started the whole problem to the bailout. In other words, contrary to what they said yesterday this bill will become a Christmas tree with “gifts” for every socialist in the country.

Ergo, no bailout will occur until after the election and then only if one side or the other gets a 60 vote margin.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13676.html


The best "bail out"
The Big Three need to look at the automotive success stories around the country and learn from the experience of auto companies that are thriving.

Kia is building a new factory in GA. VW is building a new factory in TN. Mitsubishi is looking for suitable land in GA to build a new factory. Honda, BMW, Hyundai, Mercedes are expanding. Toyota is moving production of its hybrids from CA to MS. These companies are all booming, selling their cars faster than they can build them.

Two lessons the Big Three could learn from their failures and the successes of others: (1) the factories that are thriving are in "right to work" states; and (2) those states are low tax states.

It would probably be cheaper for the Big Three to exit Michigan and move South, but that's simply stating the obvious. Instead, taxpayers are expected to pour their good money after bad.


DOC.......
Very true statement he was in a class with Einstein! Did not say I love him; just saying the statement is true!

Another truth Hard Core Liberals will not admit and that is the 1902/1903 published in the Russian newspaper MOSKOWSKIJA WIEDOMOSTI called the “Protocols” of the Learned Elders of Zion. The book published in 1905 and a copy sent to the British Museum in 1906 as true. Hard Core Liberals call it a forgery and have attempted to discredit the “protocols”. In 1933 Hard Core Liberals resorted to legal action the FJC and the BJC were seeking a judgment that the “Protocols” were a forgery and a prohibition of their publication.


The decision was given on May 14, 1935, BUT it was announced in the “Liberal” press” before” it was DELIVERED by the Court!.... Can anyone believe that? Before the court even announced its finding or ruling!


NOW THE UPSHOT!!!!! HOW MANY KNOW THIS PART???... On November 1, 1937, the Swiss Court of Criminal Appeals “QUASHED” this Liberal Press judgment in it’s entirely! Hard Core Liberals propagandists, however, still declare that the “Protocols have been “proved” to be a forgery…. Even after evidence of their existence as far back as 1895; Hard Core Liberals still declare the “Protocols” were drawn up in 1905 after the Russo-Japanese war…. Doesn’t figure does it?


Today; The Bilderberg Group, The Trilateral Commission, Brookings Institution, Council on Foreign Relations and the Ford Foundation drives the world. Now shake in this statement by: Dr. Oscar Levy, admitting that his people have destroyed the countries in which they came to power; created the 'chosen people myth', along with a twisted version of Christianity; have brought the world to a shambles having been behind the Revolutions and Wars - both intra and international - throughout history.
You then end up at this point in time and in history…

People will say however “I’m” wrong and I say to you am I????

Detroit make better cars.
Japan thinks years ahead of American auto makers.Quick fat profits from giant gas guzzlers and now sit at dealers with no buyers.We ain't gonna be coughing up 1 Trillion bucks because of sound advanced planning.We will probably be doing this again in another 10 years after we get back to business as usual.

Paulson will decide
Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency

http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/20/paulsons-blank-check/#mor e-31853


No Law, no Court, no Lawyer to worry about.
When he wants to spend money he will.

Taxpayers are responsible if any problems arise, like loosing ones house etc.

Our kids will be paying for this
We won't be paying for this as much as our kids will. They can say hello to 75% tax rates and the complete wipeout of middle-class wealth. Who is to say that the RepubliCrats don't actually want it that way.

Nationalization is NOT the Answer
Mr. Will: Thank you for your straight- forward appraisal of the former 'Big Three' Automakers' apparently successful attempt to feed at the government trough! Our government should not be deciding who the winners and losers are in the marketplace!

One wonders what will happen to the automakers' efforts to cut costs once they receive this windfall: with this kind of money where is the pressure- for example- to cut labor costs?

Keep up the great work!

(Disclosure: I am a retired GM manager)

Good News - Bad News
We have some good news and we have some bad news. The bad news is the country is about to go belly-up and back to the soup lines. The good news, Americans can start crossing the border to find work in Mexico. You know, doing those jobs that Mexicans just want do.


The worst thing about bailouts
is they lead to stagnation. Lack of job security is the best friend of the American working man and middle class. Does anybody think we should be bailing out the buggy whip makers? But in a huge way, that is exactly what we will be doing when we bailout AIG, Fannie Mae, Gm etc. Incompetence, obsolesence and technical stupidity and lack of foresight will be rewarded and maintained. We became the foremeost economy in the world because we did less of these things than our competition in Europe and Japan. Now we are following them into stagnation. Leaner meaner economies and religions will take over. I doubt i'll see it, but most Americans now alive are voting themselves into it, and can expect comfortable irrelevance as the future course of events is determined in China, India, Russia and the ME. It was great while we lasted, but nothing lasts forever.

Privatized profits/socialized losses
Dear Mr. Will: Clarity of thought, much needed and very rare amongst the leadership, exudes from every syllable of this essay.

This is a disgraceful episode in American history, when people like us, with our potty little lives, will be coerced into bearing the cost of decades of folly and corruption.

How I wish the meltdown had occurred before each nation convention! I wonder how the ground would have shifted under each party?


Doc.
Obviously you didn't know; Marx was brilliant, but Stalin was just a bad apple, and you can't judge Marx's theory by Stalin's actions.

Or the actions of Lenin, Mao, Castro, Che, Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Tito, or any of the other murderers who always seem to end up running Marxist dictatorships.

It couldn't be that Marx's theory was inherently flawed and must necessarily lead to dictatorship and mass-murder, just because every single time it was tried it led to dictatorship and mass-murder. Could it?

Constitutionality
I am now starting to regret not supporting Ron Paul, who saw this coming. He was correct that the Fed is unconstitutional.

Now we have the Fed spending taxpayers' money, a power that the Constitution specifically gives to Congress alone. This must be stopped now, for the sake of the republic.

Bill - It's not a question of ''should''
--
Observes Bill ("a retired GM manager"):

"Our government should not be deciding who the winners and losers are in the marketplace!"


It goes well beyond "should not" and into the realm of an absolute "CANNOT."

Are you familiar with the economics concept called "the knowledge problem"?

As succinctly as I can manage, it summarizes as "nobody can know everything."

And yet for the most robust, powerful, effective, and efficiently functioning economy, all knowledge must be available, must circulate without impediment, and must be used.

On the face of it, that would seem to be impossible.

But it's only impossible if you conclude that one individual - or one group or cadre or board or cabal of individuals - is responsible for knowing and acting.

What seems to puzzle most dullards about capitalism is that it is *NOT* a system in the "designed" sense of the word, but rather a process more properly called "the free market."

The term "capitalism" was deliberately devised by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels as a demonizing word - a pejorative - for what was then simply and accurately known as "the free market."

By "free" was meant "free of coercive manipulation."

Free of government intervention - politicians and their armed thugs - "deciding who the winners and losers are."

The reason why freedom works is that in a free market, the knowledge of resource availability and economic demand for goods and services is generated, transmitted, and used by myriads, millions of purposeful individuals to their own ends and according to their own capabilities.

It is not limited by the priorities and talents of popularity contest winners and manipulative conspirators, but by people held to standards of honesty in the glaring light of the open marketplace.


Freedom solves the knowledge problem.

Government cannot.

--

economics
I'm afraid that America's dalliance with socialistic economics will have to run it's course, no one is seriously worried about a national debt that will be 11 1/2 trillion dollars after the current bail outs, Government control of the housing market will give excellent opportunities to the pary in power and we will have to wait and see what this means.

IMPORTANT!
MUST SEE!

http://aclockworkobama.com/

If you question the validity of any news, video or quotes posted on this website, please feel free to check the facts at: factcheck.org

VICII - A BLUEPRINT FOR THE INSANE

.....SEMPRA ENERGY wanted to build a LNG storage facility in San Diego but the Demoobs/Envirowackos stopped them so they had to build it across the border in Mexico ...

.....So not only do the citizens of SD have to pay higher utility bills but they lost 6,000 good paying jobs to Mexico ...

.....All up and down the West Coast, from Wa to Ca, gas storage depots are nixed by the Demoboobs and offshore gas deposits are off limits to drilling ...seems like insanity or a death wish doesn't it ...

.....Yet these Blue States that are all in financial trouble keep electing the same demoboobs who keep selling their envirowacko dreams of "Clen Energy" to be paid for with "windfall" profits on Big Oil ...

.....Compared to these nut jobs the Land of OZ and Alice's Wonderland seem normal .....COLOSSUS

cleverness - What's all this about Marx?
--
This endless litany about how "Marx was brilliant" is genuinely puzzling.

Nothing I've read directly of the man's own work or in critiques produced thereupon (notably Thomas Sowell's *Marxism: Philosophy and Economics* [1986] and Ludwig von Mises' *Socialism* [1922], among many, many others) supports any conclusion that he was "brilliant" in any particular.

Clever, perhaps. Vicious, certainly. Glib and perceptive and manipulative beyond doubt.


But "brilliant"? It'd take a sick, strange, astonishingly imperceptive mind to stumble into the use of that word to describe Karl Marx.

Indeed, dispassionate and honest evaluation of his life as a husband, father, and head of a household gives one more immediately to the phrase "rotten useless lowlife sonofabitch" than any other descriptor.


Beyond that, though, I find your confession:

"I am now starting to regret not supporting Ron Paul, who saw this coming. He was correct that the Fed is unconstitutional."

...quite heartening. Beyond the truth that the Federal Reserve System is unlawful, there's also the fact - now being so vividly demonstrated - that it's malignant as well.

All central banks (and the Fed was intended as such, and functions as such) are created for one real purpose, and only one purpose.

To debauch the currency.

And the Fed has done this, precisely as Dr. Paul has described.




=====
"Government is the only institution that can take a perfectly good piece of paper, print some noble words on it, and make it perfectly worthless."

-- Ludwig von Mises

baseballdoc
California is an illustration of crooked Demoncrap politics. The voting districts have been gerrymanders to assure permanent Democrat control. The campaign laws are set up the same way. The city of LA is now mini-Mexico and most likely all of the illegals are also voting.

Not only that, but the Demoncraps running the census bureau count those illegals and include them in the census to determine the numbers of Representatives the State gets in congress. The number of reps in congress determines the number of electoral votes. So not only does it mess up CA, but it gets the rest of us too . How about that, doesn’t it make your day.

Illegals could be determining the outcome of the presidential election!

Will bank dividends pay Social Security
I hope that the government is smart enough to get ownership of these banks instead of giving money away for free. Will that fund our broke Social Security sytem? Will future dividends be enough to pay our retirement or who will bail out Social Security when the baby boomers retire?

I love this George Will article and would love to know if it is time for us to switch to the Libertarian party.

Bailouts And Blames
Not being able to understand what has happened ,why it happened and who all are to blame,I won't even try to blame anyone.

I do say,anyone who is responsible and profitted from it monetarily,needs to cough some of up. Although it may be only a drop in the ocean compared to what is lost,they should not get to enjoy their largesse,while honest,hardworking citizens must be overtaxed to pay for their theivery.

Raines,Mudd,Johnson,Gorelek are some who live the high life from this debaucle. Some of them are working for the Obama Campaign. Did he get some of this money for his coffers?

Rowly
I thought the Neil Boortz column explained it faily well. I also expanded on his in that 4 part post I did toward the end of the comments.

Sadly there are no times and post numbers on the column today.

Rowly
If you had to sum it up in a short sentence it would be:

Democrats try to legislate a free lunch and reward cronies, but unable to make the economy work using magic beans.

The Problem is the UAW
When will American commentators and politicians finally admit the naked emperor is "unionism"? As with schools, health care, steel, etc., the UAW have used their coercion to exess in this country, and now, must be stopped. All legal protections must be stripped from unions. Employers must have the freedom to tell them to pound sand when they threaten. If the auto industry had had the moral backbone to tell them where to go 50 or more years ago, we would be much better off, and the auto companies might just be surviving today.

Head Of Lehman Brothers
How it works for bankers, biggest crooks in the world



Dick Fuld

Lehman Is At $.21 Cents A Share
The stock has gone from $85.00 dollars to $.21 cents. It's a safe bet that 'insiders' had big short positions in that stock

What Happened
Lehman bought US sub-prime mortgages from banks, re-packaged them, and sold them on to global investors. They became an investment bank lending money to real estate. They would lend Abe Marovitz $200 million, who then bought Jack Gold's shopping center, and the shopping center would go bankrupt. Jack Gold got $200 million and Lehman's investors got a bad IOU

The real estate is still there, the money that bought it is still there in Abe Gold's pocket, but the thousands of investors will see their retirement go up in smoke. And Abe's next move is to buy gold because eventually the American dollar becomes worthless.


Vic11
I am not completely in the dark about it. I saw your posts,but did read them all. I will see what your take on it is,later.

I listen to Neil occasionally and read his post this week. I heard him Friday,I believe it was,explaining FM & FM. He is in real estate and knows something about it. I disagree with him on so much,it is hard to listen very often.

I have some money in AIG. Not a lot,but don't want to lose it,so I am glad it is propped up,I think.

I saw the other day how much each citizen owes for the national debt (if they had to pay it). That was before these last billions were added to it.

I knew years ago when banks started giving home loans to unqualified buyers,there would be a day of reckoning. This is it.

talent scout
Rent the documentary DVD 'American: Freedom to Fascism'. If you think the Federal Reserve is illegal, your proof is contained in that DVD.

Bailout & More Bailout
What I don't comprehend is why both candidates for President will not tell the American people WHY! This disgraceful position the economy is in, in my judgement, is the fault of a lousy Congress, both Democratic and Republican. Clinton's administration began the 140% lending practices and our laws and institutions were not held accountable. Even today, reverse mortgages are being approved with real estate appraisals brought in $30-40 thousand over the actual value in order to make the loan to "deserving" seniors. The over appraised value certainly will cover the exhorbitant fees being charged up front by the banks who handle this product. Another dismal practice reminiscent of the RTC which failed to solve problems created by banks and mortgage companies in the 1980 and 1990s. That time the appraiser was the "bad guy", rather than putting the blame where it resided. Bad congressional legislation and banking practices. I admire Mr. Will for his frank discussion of the automobile industry. Hopefully, Michigan, et al, will recognize their own management/union faux pas and save themselves. Guessing whether the best person would be Obama or McCain is a moot point because it all has ended up being the American taxpayer's buck! SueD.

Rowly
Reaganite posted this as well yesterday and it is pretty good.

It is a power point slide show (click to advance) of stick figures that give a very abbreviated explanation (some obscenity)

http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn &skipauth=true&pli=1#0

VIC
It is not so much a free lunch as a free vote.
Democrats learned long ago how to buy votes. They are experts now,while we pay the bill.

Sue
Reverse mortagages are the opposite of what these subprimes were doing.

In order to qualify you have to be within 10 years of the average death age, they will only loan 30% to 40% of the equity and that is dependent on the location. You can get lump sum, but it is even less than 30% to 40%.

The people who are making these reverse mortgages are counting on you to NOT pay it back, or I should say they are counting on the heirs to not pay it back.

They get a house for 30% of it's value. So if it is appraised for 130% and they pay only 30% of that they are still stealing it.

And elderly couple (or single) needing capitol would be much better off simply selling the house and moving into a smaller apartment somewhere.

Oh almost forgot
That doesn't count the VERY exhorbitant fees they charge.

I marvel
Summers - 5:15 PM EST
talent scout
Rent the documentary DVD 'American: Freedom to Fascism'. If you think the Federal Reserve is illegal, your proof is contained in that DVD
=====
At how easy it is to find how crooked the entire banking system, US Treasury and the illegal Federal Reserve System gets by with their theft.

People ignore the cause of this on-going rip of to argue over inconsequential details that do not even matter cause its the SYSTEM ITSELF THAT IS THE CAUSE OF IT ALL.

jim
Your post makes no sense to me. Specifically what experience are you talking about? List it, please. What does a family in the banking business making a large amount of money have to do with anything?

talent scout
The DVD is particularly precient with the 'crisis' the banking giants are having now. I just listened to Chris Wallace's interview with Hank Paulson. His answers made no sense whatsoever and were not responsive to the questions. I wanted to throttle him after he answered the first question. He said the taxpayer will be buying 'illiquid assets'. I guess that is the DC term for bad debt.

talent scout
The DVD 'America: Freedom to Fascism' also covers the IRS. One point made is there is no requirement in law for an individual to file a 1040. Since I first watched it yesterday, I have been slogging through the 16th Amendment; and, I can't find it, either. Also, the DVD gives the case names of cases where citizens refused to file 1040's or pay taxes and have won because the IRS has been unable to produce a law requiring same. Do your own research and let me know what you find. Don't try to fast-track it with Wiki; take your time and tell me what you find.

All property to become state owned
It appears whatever or whenever the first bailout was exercised, is coming back to haunt us. Now, anyone with a debt; feels they or their company is entiteled to get theirs too. We are all to blame. I never belonged to a union, but could see the folly in believing that because I was an American, I deserved 20 times more than a Japanese counterpart to assemble a car; or a pair of sneakers. Same for American CEO's; put their a@s in jail. What's next, the house I worked all my life to pay for will become state property? I'm my brother's keeper, only when he has enough intelligence to realize it's raining.

The wonder of it
Not a single elected federal soul has so much as uttered under his breath, "This may not be constitutional." They dare not.
Yet that's all you heard when Clinton was tried for impeachment. That's all you hear about Bush going into Iraq. By opposite sides for sure.
Then the constitution was waved around like the flag. This time it's rolled, stuffed into an old mason jar and buried where no one can find it.
Nobody is going to find out whodunit. Oh, there will be a scapegoat; maybe two. The brunt of the losses will hang on the neck of the stockholders and taxpayers. The innocent. Which leads me to ask; who is going to benefit from all this taxpayer largess? Will the bulk of the bailed out entities continue with mostly the same workforce; the same dirty dealing doublecrossers? Betcha they do. Now there's a heap dose of moral hazard for ya.

And I have to respond to gcalknet @ 5:01p.m.
You and others have no clue by orders of magnitude less that Bill and I what kind of crazy stuff management does at GM. My local management was just bellyaching this summer during local contract negotiations that they couldn't get the union to change this one particular work rule. The UNION had to tell them they've had the authority to impose the rule for over a decade, they just won't do it. Why? Because they're scared. Two contracts ago the union offered a plantwide major workrule change in response for the exact change mangement wanted for just part of the plant. The company declined the offer. Why? Because they're scared. The next contract they accepted the union offer and this one they changed it more. The company complained about featherbeading in a particular set of job classifications. The union pointed out that the underutilized employees were only being assinged about 1/3 the task they are supposed to do. Why didn't mgmt. assign those tasks? They're scared.

I could go on for hours. Your hair would curl.

Summers
Hi! Since so much of what is now law is unconstitutional,what would be our recourse? Who,but the Supremem Court could vote on it? Who would take it to them? Strange.

Rowly
I am beginning to read Title 26 of the USC to keep up my study on the illegality of the tax system.

Question: How did we support our country from 1779 to 1913 without income taxes?

PLEASE get the DVD and look at it. I ordered it from Netflix. You will see what some people have been doing. It is curious that people who have retired from the IRS after becoming aware of the illegality have never filed nor paid taxes. They are interviewed.

Rowly,
any taxpayer has standing to bring a suit on taxes. You have to go through the US district court, then the US Court of Appeals to get to the US Supreme Court. Then, there is no guarantee your case will be heard. However, the SCOTUS cases I am now aware of ruled that wages were not taxable.

I apologize for not previously answering your question.

Summers
I propose another 'Tea Party'!! It is clearly taxation without representation. Income tax was not supposed to be permanent,but it bought votes,so it just grew.

Government encroachment has brought us to the brink and I see nothing but more of the same in the future.

It is all too complicated,and is worrisome.




Rowly
Why did we create the Federal Reserve? It prints money and lends it to us at an interest rate. We did not have the Federal Reserve before 1913, we minted and printed our own money. It came about as a design of Paul Warburg, John D. Rockefeller, and J. P. Morgan. Needless to say, they were suddenly members of the new Federal Reserve. Tell me who is on the Federal Reserve today. Tell me where you found that information.

My sympathies
Fools and their money are soon parted.

I applaud our ruling and financial elites. They deserve all of our money. We have no right to it.

We've turned over much of our lives to them. We don't learn, can't read and are too lazy to pay attention to world and national events. We want our cheap beer, football games and reality TV. We don't want to know anything.

We demanded that all of us get cheap loans for houses we can't maintain. We reach out our arms to our messiahs and beg them to change our soiled diapers, get us good paying jobs and pay off our mortgages.

Because we refuse to grow up and stand on our own, we necessarily outsource our existence to the suits and tassled shoes in D.C. and NYC.

So, we're getting what we deserve. My house is paid off. I have no debt. I earned well, invested smartly and can now have anything I want. I got educated, didn't have illegitimate kids, didn't do drugs, get diseases or commit crimes. I'm set. I now want to watch all the other fat slob dumb moron democrat voting crap for brains serfs lose everything they have, go broke, get divorces and end up dead drunk in the ghetto because the F'ed up their lives.

I'm heating up the popcorn now and waiting for the show.

Mr. Paulson is swindling futurity!
Thomas Jefferson is saying so even from his grave: "The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the guise of funding, is but swindling futurity on a larges scale".

Did Thomas Jefferson ever dream that this present swindling would now even be praised by the very President of this United States of America, when in reality this present financial debacle has been created by the very Federal Government?

Yes, for decades this very Federal Government has more and more imposed Socialistic/Comunistic programs upon the American people without ever seeking their consent by vote.

Yes, and now with a straight and even holy face, demanding for the taspayers to pay for all of their swindling? Yes, to top is all accusations flying back and forth between parties, like a circus, blaming each other, while both parties are as guilty as hell!

Than do add insult to injury, America at the same is out all over the world spending trillions to fight against the very arms it has sold over decades and given to so called friends, whose friends in turn are mostly enemies of America, or so it seems like.

James Madison said it well: "Of all enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instrument for bringing the many under the domination of the few".

Yes, the above from a one who is only a legal immigrant of 52+ years and a staunch conservative Christian Republican. Yes for the record!

Can it happen???
Can it possibly happen that a hard core, honest, constitution following, freedom loving, conservative group that cares honestly for the legal, hard working, tax paying American citizens ever come into office?
I would really like to see such a group of quasi-political, intellegent and America first group come to power. The kind that would not pander to special interest groups such as: foreign aid, United Nations, illegal alien lobbies, special religious groups, bail outs for stupid greedy corporations, and whiners and takers of all ilk.
When confronted with these whiners, the president of this America first group would tell them to go to He1l. He or she would then be known to these whiners as "one who greets with fire".

H.D., SVARA
What do you now think of Joe Biden's comment that paying taxes is patriotic? What about Obama wanting to give out more tax incentive checks, which money we have to borrow?

It is unclear if John McCain is in favor of this bail-out. Many in Congress seem to be against it. Paulson could not say that this was a fix. It is possible, he conceded, that the government will have to ask for another $70 billion or similar amount before long.

This is the height of craziness. In the media, only Lou Dobbs on CNN has spoken out against it.

HD's Handsome Son,
You gorgeous boy! The financial crisis does touch us all, in one degree or another. You are well set, as am I, for the time being. But, we went off the gold standard and now our dollar is worth four cents.

Summers
I read that Bush appointed Ben Bernanke and Donald Kohn to the Reserve.Would that be correct?

Are you kidding

Summers Location: LA
Reply # 138
Date: Sep 21, 2008 - 6:22 PM EST
Subject: jim
Your post makes no sense to me. Specifically what experience are you talking about? List it, please. What does a family in the banking business making a large amount of money have to do with anything?
=========

Haven’t you been listening to the political debates? Both parties are accused of having a candidate who has little experience, and we are told if they had more experience, they would be better candidates because of what they would have learned by that experience.

Well, do you tell me that those tens of thousands of people with ten’s of years experience on Wall Street, shouldn’t be more qualified for their job, then someone just on the job for a couple of years?

And especially names like Morgan, Sterns, Lynch, and many more, have been around for a hundred years, so didn’t they learn anything from that experience.

If you didn’t already know they are crooks, wouldn’t you trust a banker with 40 years experience, more than you would trust someone just out of college for a couple of years.

I can’t believe you asked a serious question.


NINJA Houses
I watched a talk show host on C-Span yesterday . His name was Ric something or other. He said F & F let banks put people into Ninja homes...No income, no job or assets.

There is a filing
Rowly writes
- 6:56 PM EST Summers
Hi! Since so much of what is now law is unconstitutional,what would be our recourse? Who,but the Supremem Court could vote on it? Who would take it to them? Strange.
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September 18, 2008
WTP Brings Federal Lawsuit to Stop AIG Bailout

U.S. Lacks Constitutional Authority for Loan

On the day following the 221st anniversary of the signing of the U.S. Constitution, WTP Chairman and constitutional activist Robert Schulz today filed a federal lawsuit in United States District Court in Albany seeking to halt the execution of the emergency bailout of American International Group, Inc. (AIG) by the United States Government and the Federal Reserve.

The lawsuit asserts that the commitment of public funds and credit for the direct benefit of privately owned AIG is an ultra virus action by the United States Government and Federal Reserve, i.e., beyond the limited legal authority granted by the Constitution. The lawsuit asks for a "show cause" hearing demanding that the Government produce evidence of its legal authority to commit public funds for such a purpose, as well as emergency and permanent injunctions halting the bailout transaction.

Beyond the Constitutional deficiencies, the bailout establishes a dangerous precedent enabling the Fed and/or Government to nationalize virtually any business or property within the United States without legal authority or congressional approval.

The defendants include the Federal Reserve System, Fed Chairman Ben Bernanki, the U.S. Treasury, Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson Jr. and the United States Government.

The WTP Foundation today issued a press release citing Schulz:


http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/PROJECTS/AIG/AIG-Compl aint-9-18-08.pdf

Reinventing the auto
Both Ford and GM already manufacture 5-passenger sedans that get 65 mpg. They are selling them in Europe but not in the US.

These cars run on diesel fuel.

GM says they can't sell them in the US because of (unspecified) environmental restrictions.

Ford says they aren't selling them in the US because they don't think the public will buy them. Ford says that Americans are put off by the smell of diesel. Ford also says diesel costs more than unleaded (mostly due to a 40 cent/gallon federal excise tax), that the price of these cars would be $1,400 higher than the Prius and competing hybrids built by Honda, and that the prevailing preference in the US is for hybrids.

This is stupid.

5-passenger sedans that get 65 mpg would have a tremendous, positive impact on our transportation situation. It would reduce our consumption of crude oil, thereby lowering its price, and reducing emissions. This would please liberal enviromentalist whackos if it were possible to please them (which it's not, they would still carry on their hate affair with the automobile).

It would also really upset Obama, who says its impossible to continue using crude oil and promises to convert the entire country to non-fossil fuel energy in ten years if elected (even though he can only be Prez for 8 years).

To my knowledge the only reason there is a 'preference' for hybrids is because the enviros and the lib-media have been drumming "hybrids" into Americans' eyes and ears for nearly a decade, even though hybrids use electricity, which is made (mostly) from fossil fuel and is less efficient than gasoline (or diesel). Why am I not surprised?

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