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Tuesday, September 15, 2009
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Left Is Right -- Taxes Are a Moral Issue
by Dennis Prager
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One principle that all those on the left hold is that taxes constitute more than an economic issue; they are, first and foremost, a moral one. Economists on the left may argue for higher taxes on economic grounds but they and we know that at bottom, higher taxes, especially "taxing the rich," is what they believe morality demands.

Culture of Corruption by Michelle Malkin FREE

For example, there are obviously only two possible ways to reduce government deficits: reduce spending or increase taxes (or some combination of both). The left advocates the later; the right advocates the former. Left-wing spokesmen, such as New York Times economics columnist and Princeton University professor of economics Paul Krugman, may offer economic arguments for raising taxes in order to lower government deficits, but their real motivations are moral: reducing economic inequality (by redistributing income) and expanding government (because government is the most effective way to help all citizens).

Now, as it happens, not only is there is nothing wrong with being animated by moral concerns -- we should all be. The problem with the left's advocacy of higher taxes is not that it is rooted in moral concerns. The problem -- actually the two problems -- are these:

First, higher taxes are rarely morally defensible. In fact, on purely moral grounds -- in other words, even if they did effectively reduce the deficit without paying an economic price for doing so -- they are usually not moral. More on this below.

Second, higher taxes are usually economically counterproductive. This does not matter to the left, however, because economic growth is not what most interests the left. Since Karl Marx, the left has always been far more interested in economic equality than in economic growth. It is true that liberals such as John F. Kennedy were more concerned with economic growth than with economic equality -- which is why he advocated lowering taxes -- but for much of the last century, unlike today, there was a major difference between liberal and left.

Now to return to the moral arguments, my difference with the left is not that I oppose morality dictating economic policy. I believe, in fact, that virtually all social policies should be rooted in moral concerns. My difference with the left is that I am convinced that moral considerations dictate lower, not higher, taxes.

It is too bad that libertarians and conservatives rarely take on the left on moral grounds because the left's moral foundations are as weak as their economic foundations.

The very notion of an income tax is morally debatable. On what moral grounds can the state force a citizen essentially at gunpoint to give away his legally and morally earned money? Why isn't taxation a form of legalized stealing? The obvious answer is that common sense dictates that citizens have the moral right, even the moral obligation, to vote to give money to, at the very least, enable a government to fund a police force, sustain a national defense, and help those incapable of helping themselves or of being helped by others.

But at some point beyond that, taxation becomes nothing more than legalized stealing. Obviously, people will differ over where exactly that point is, but no rational person disputes that such a point exists. No one could argue that a 100 percent tax -- even if it paid for every need every member of the society had -- was moral and not simply a form of theft.

So moral problem No.1 with taxation is the morality of forcing other people -- under threat of violence -- to give their money away.

A second moral problem is having some people give at a greater percentage rate than others. The biblical notion of tithing, for example, is entirely universal -- everyone gave a tenth what he had. No one was forced to give half while others gave a tenth.

A third moral problem is allowing those who pay no tax (such as the federal income tax) to vote on how much others will be forced to pay. It is quite difficult to morally defend the fact that about half of Americans pay no federal income tax, yet they determine how much the other half will be forced to pay.

A fourth moral problem is that the higher the taxes, the more decent people become cheaters. One of the leading religious ethicists of our time, Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, author of two volumes of Jewish ethical law, told me years ago when he lived in Israel during the height of its socialism with its correspondingly high taxes that he witnessed the finest citizens, religious and secular alike, having to cheat on taxes or be rendered impoverished. I have never forgotten that.

I know no one in America today -- and I know extraordinarily honest and generous people, liberal and conservative -- who does not in some way "cheat" on taxes -- as, for example, reporting expenses as business expenses that are not really so. I place the word cheat within quotation marks because not all cheating is illegal. Some people figure out how to avoid paying what the law demands through completely legal, but ethically questionable, means.

At a certain level of taxation, virtually every honest person is reduced to cheating either legally or illegally.

A fifth moral problem is that the higher the tax rate, the lower the charity rate. This is universally true. The more people give to the state, the less they give to their neighbor -- and even to members of their family -- in need.

And sixth and only finally because of the limitations in size of a single column, the higher the taxes, the less people are inclined to work hard. Why should they? At a given point, people just conclude that work is for suckers.

And I haven't even begun to discuss the economic failings of higher taxes.

So, next time someone on the left advocates higher taxes, remember two things: He or she is coming from a moral, not an economic, position. And the moral case against higher taxes is far more powerful than the moral case for them.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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FairTax is the answer
It treats everyone exactly the same, regardless of income.


Also...
Prager would have done better to plagiarize a Walter Williams column on the subject.

For any country at a given time there is a maximum amount of revenue - a fraction of GDP -that taxes can bring in. There is no set of rates and rules that can bring in more than that. It is NOT obvious that increasing taxes will reduce government deficits if we are already near that maximum revenue point. Only a reduction in spending will work.


Finally, I don't cheat on my taxes, and the people I know don't either. Prager's obviously hanging with the wrong crowd.

Dennis
Folks, George W. Bush and the Republican controlled Congress went on a big spending binge from 2001-2007. Medicare Prescription was never paid for.

The War in Afghanistan was never paid for.

The War in Iraq was never paid for.

Those Republican mandates for ethanol use were never paid for.

When I say not paid for, I mean the country just borrowed money from abroad to pay for it.

Let's face it, the Republicans did a good job of getting this country addicted to spending more than we collect in taxes.

In 2001, we had surplus's 'as far as the eye can see' according to Alan Greenspan. Now we have deficits as far as the eye can see.

Doesn't it seem like we need a tax hike?








Great Article
I agree with this article. I wish there would be more discussion on the 3rd point made. In 1776 the cry was made "Taxation without representation is tyranny!" Today our cry should be "Representation without taxation is tyranny!"

TAXES ARE A MORAL ISSUE
No kidding.

Bush giving tax credits to the wealthy to the tune of well over 70billion, which was borrowed, and putting the greater tax burden on the middle class was a moral issue. It was completely immoral.

He may not have increased taxes, but should have. He was the first president since the Mexican-American War who started a war AND gave tax credits to rich people. He borrowed more money than 40 years of presidents before him COMBINED.

What's morally right is actually figuring out how to PAY for things as best one can. GW didn't even try. The Robin Hood effect in reverse was a way to buy more and more political points from "his base."

Immoral. Immoral. Time to get back on track, and if it means PAYING for it ourselves, so be it.

Moral Tax Cuts.

The only "moral" tax cuts are tax cuts for everyone who actually pays taxes.

Just like Bush did.

Taxes
If a private entity laundered the way Congress does, they would be in prison.
There are apparently some people on this site who don't understand that it is Congress that taxes, borrows and spends. I don't recall GWB trying to strong arm Congress the way Obama is doing, and even if he did, does it make sense to lower the debt by borrowing and spending more. What does it matter which party we blame? This has been going on since the sixties. Obama has upped the ante on borrowing and spending. People are fed up.

Tax cuts work?


Useful Idiots
Location: PA
Reply # 2
Date: Sep 15, 2009 - 4:19 AM EST Moral Tax Cuts.

The only "moral" tax cuts are tax cuts for everyone who actually pays taxes.

Just like Bush did.

>And how did those tax cuts work out? Bush inherited $4.7 trillion in debt and left Obama with $10.6 trillion. Bush was given 4% unemployment and left it at 7.6%. And now it has climbed to 9.7%, the highest numbers in 26 years. Remind me ... who was President then and didn't he also have some tax cuts?<




"My plan reduces the national debt, and fast. So fast, in fact, that economists worry that we're going to run out of debt to retire." — Bush radio address, Feb. 24, 2001



High Taxes and Cheating
Dennis mentioned Rabbi Telushkin's experience under a repressive tax structure. I too lived/worked in a social welfare state (Denmark). The marginal tax rate was 50%, all purchases had a 17% VAT, sin taxes, massive gas taxes, car taxes, etc... All told it was debilitating.
Cheating on taxes was second nature to Danes. Every discussion prior to a purchase or transaction included a plan on how best to circumvent the taxes. Nearly every personal car on the road was reported as a "company" car to circumvent the crippling car tax. There was a cheat for everything.
There was no incentive to work late, put in a few extra hours, or even put in the hours you're paid for. A sort of culture of mediocrity persisted. Entrepreneurial types were eager to move to the U.S. and start businesses in a less repressive business environment.

Jim

The Bush tax cuts worked very well. You just have to be educated to understand why.

Cut Spending
The government operates the opposite of the private sector so if we were to raise taxes on the government we would have to cut wages and benefits. (Spending)

I think it’s time to look at government the same way the private sector looks at it own operations.

Cutting out the fat, many programs that fail to move people to the real tax payer status should be cut.

Programs that trap people into poverty, prison or an early death should get the ax.
(Welfare and the public school system)

The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

What are the graduates of a public school system doing after they graduate?

How many are on welfare?
How many are in prison?
How many have died a violent of an unnatural death?

Heres what we do know.

Thanks to Barack Obama, we now know Liberals really don't care about deficit spending.


Isn't Indolence Unjust?
My solutions to the problems we face here in the USA:

1. If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em.

2. Serious application of criminal laws.


Only a Flat Tax is Fair
The only fair and morally right tax is one with a flat rate.

The so-called "Fair Tax" is just like the left-libs' beloved progressive taxation in that it is set up to punish the more productive by taxing them on the rewards they earned by that productivity while anyone who lives at the government-approved level of austerity pays nothing. People don't work to earn money to see it piled in a vault like Scrooge McDuck. They work to earn money to buy a better standard of living and shouldn't be punished for it.

An income tax with a flat, low rate is the fairest. Its the only way to make the rules the same for all. Under that system the burger-flipper at the fast-food joint and the millionaire entrepreneur pay the same percentage of every dollar earned -- no exceptions, no loopholes. That's truly fair.

ALL taxes disincentivize work. But the low, flat rate is the least disincentive because every time a person works to earn another dollar he/she knows that the same amount goes into his pocket. There is no point of diminishing returns where the effort to earn the dollar is no longer worth it because the amount pocketed has shrunk.

The low rate is fair and morally correct. Setting a rate above what is required to fund only the legitimate functions of government as enumerated in the US Constitution is morally wrong for all the reasons Prager lists above.

rebuttals for tax-hikers
zap & balanced think we can raise taxes in order to pay off the debt. It doesn't work that way - if you raise tax rates past a certain point, you slow the economy & encourage cheating which ends up reducing total revenue.

You guys are right that the GOP didn't pay for what they spent in 2001-2006. But it was the spending that was the problem.

Think about how every other entity (families, companies, etc) in the country deals with debt - you do it primarily by cutting back on spending. Some people may be able to get a second job, but that generally doesn't work well for the long haul.


Jim, to expand on UI's post, check out http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp
which shows the unemployment rate with various historical events that may affect unemployment. Note what happened after the 2003 tax cut (the 2001 was a phased approach, with most of the cuts planned toward 2006 - the 2003 cut just accelerated it). Unemployment fell, and government revenues ROSE even though rates were cut. That was one of the few things W did right.

If he and the willing GOP congress hadn't spent so dang much money, it would still be surplusses as far as they eye can see. And they'd still probably be in power...

Heres what we do know.

It is immoral to tax a working mom who can't afford healthcare for her own children to pay for healthcare for a Crack Mom.

Liberals support paying for healthcare for the Crack Mom.

Tax Cuts Create Jobs

I am so sick of Liberals arguing against tax cuts for corporations and individuals. First of all, the money does not belong to the government or them. Secondly, when corporations and individuals have more money, they spend it. This creates jobs for those with lower incomes. High rates of taxation strangle growth and "progress". Raise the tax rates and this country will regress.

In the US, we have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. Other countries, including Canada, are lowering their corporate tax rates. Unfortunately, our politicians are more interested in "social justice" rather than actual stimulating policies. The higher the tax rate the less likely corporations will employ new workers and invest in R&D.

The other day I read that both AP & McClatchy reported the fears of economists that the economy would not recover until the "rich" started spending their money because that $13 per week tax break for the lower incomes failed to stimulate. The "rich" are saving their money because they see beaucoup taxes in the future.

Liberals, please ask the poor people for jobs. Participate in that ludicrous experiment - Trickle-Up Economics.

GOP and spending
Those who cry about 2001-2006 spending will note that Obamas FIRST budget deficit is higher than all 6 of those years COMBINED.

Spare us the outrage over GOP spending if you aren't prepared to call Obama on it.

Forced charity is an oxymoron
On what part of the Constitution do you base your assertion that "citizens have the moral right...to...help those incapable of helping themselves..."? Society has a moral right to do so, but not government. Indeed, it is immoral to take from some against their will for the benefit of others, regardless of the charity of the theft. Otherwise a great article.

St. Denis,
I second your post.

I'm one of those uninsured people that Obama and his left-liberal cronies claim to be trying to help. We own a small business and our income, which had been rising until last September, has been drastically chopped. Yet the last thing I want is government medical care.

Slash taxes, both corporate and individual. Eliminate the penalties the self-employed pay. Allow interstate insurance competition. Eliminate mandated coverage for services I neither need nor want so I can buy a plan that meets my needs. And reform the tort system so that my doctor won't have to order unnecessary tests that drive up costs.

Then our business will prosper, competition will bring prices for medical care down, and I'll be able to afford the medical care I need.

I'll bet neither Obama nor his cronies ever thought to ask the "working poor" what they *actually* wanted.

balanced
I don't know where you get the idea that the Bush tax cuts weren't for everyone. My household got a substantial taxcut - everyone who pays taxes did. Maybe you don't pay taxes?

Further, I've adjusted my spending since Obama's election in anticipation of him letting the Bush tax cuts expire. Pretty much I'm one individual who adjusted household spending based upon future tax increases. What do you think businesses do?

Additionally, if the Bush tax cuts expire, I will consider leaving my job entirely as I don't see the point of having a two-income household to support an ever-growing intrusive government not to mention those who choose not to work.

Got news businesses don't exist to subsidize government and workers don't work to have their wages taken and redistributed.

People will respond accordingly.


Congressional budget-busting has NOTHING
to do with the revenues raised so much as it has to do with the spending habits of that Congress in the first place. We have deficits because we spend more than we take in. Period. It isn't possible to get out of debt by going further into it.

One does not go running to the boss to demand a raise because one has maxed out 10 credit cards. Anyone can see the moral foolishness of such an idea, for all know that there is only so much to be earned in a subordinate position. Therefore, it is wise to live within one's means and NOT spend more than one earns.

Is there any good reason Congress shouldn't be expected to exercise the same prudence with the revenues it collects? Isn't it time they got the message of the Tea Parties and quit trying to be all thing to all people, a duty for which they are not Constitutionally, much less morally, fit?

tithe arrogance
First, I would like to make a slight correction to something Dennis said in his column. According to the Old Testament, God did not require all his people to give 1/10 of what they had, but rather 1/10 of what they made, Deuteronomy 14:22: "You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year."
Second, if the Lord God in heaven only requires 1/10, by what right or moral authority does any human-created government demand more than that?

Alan
"Society has a moral right to do so, but not government."

Isn't government a product of society?

On The Deficit, Only 39% Approve
Painful personal experiences over the past year continue to dampen the outlook of many Americans. About two-thirds of those polled say they have been hurt financially by the recession, with extensive reports that job losses and pay reductions are hitting home. Most call the economic situation a source of stress in their lives, and that anxiety also stems from apprehension of what may lie ahead for their families.

Nearly six in 10 Americans are now concerned about job or pay losses in the coming months, little changed since February, and there has been no increase in the percentage who see the federal government's stimulus efforts as having an impact, even as the pace of layoffs has eased in recent months. And there is lukewarm public confidence that the government is enacting measures to stave off another financial crisis.

President Obama himself, who took to Wall Street on Monday to pitch his administration's plans to overhaul the nation's financial regulations, also gets a lukewarm 51 percent approval rating on dealing with the economy and an even lower assessment on his handling of the federal budget deficit (39 percent).

Continued high levels of concern about the downturn are taking a toll on the president's ratings: Among those who say they are concerned about future job losses or pay cuts, Obama's approval rating on handling the economy has dropped from 62 percent in February to 45 percent now, while it has remained steady among those who are less anxious.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/0 9/14/AR2009091403260.html

DavidM, I'm more mad at tGOP than Obama
because the GOP keeps claiming to be the party of limited government, of "compassionate conservatism", of fiscal responsibility. But they aren't - they say one thing, and do another.

Obama is doing EXACTLY what we knew he would do. Of course O&co must be stopped, but being angry at him is like being angry at the wind for blowing! He's just doing what liberals do.

I'm mad at the GOP for allowing Obama and the Dems to take over due to their betrayal of our trust. They were the ones who could have prevented Obama from coming to power in the first place if they had controlled themselves. I guess self-control is out of fashion these days.

Mother of 4

As we have learned in the last year, politicians care little about small businesses even though they create the overwhelming majority of jobs. The Federal government believes that slapping higher taxes, more rules and regulations, ObamaCare, cap=TRADE=tax, etc., will create jobs. That assertion is disingenuous at best. Just look at tax preparation, big corporations have loads of accountants on staff, small businesses do not. Each year it gets more and more expensive because of changes in tax law. If the Feds want small businesses to grow and thereby hire more employees, then they need to remove their boot from the neck of the backbone of the American economy.

Free up small businesses to do what they do best. This will spur economic growth and make Americans more wealthy. With increased incomes, Americans will be able to purchase their own insurance. We don't "need" the government. We need the government to get our of our way.

One Sentence is Sufficient
I am amused by Liberals who tout 'morality.' I've noticed that these same self-righteous as**s are the same ones that bray the loudest when the word 'God' is mentioned and who hasten to insert moral equivalency into every issue: The murder of unborn babies isn't murder, the Kopechne death was for a good cause, hardened criminals require understanding, pornography and filth are desirable 'artistic' expressions, men marrying men is valuable behavior, and on and on.

The simple fact is that anytime an entity, be it government or otherwise, demands that a person hand over his possessions under duress, theft occurs. If the Left truly had a moral compass, only one sentence would say it all: Thou shalt not steal.

The problem with Prager
The problem with Prager is that his logic is always filled with numerous false assumptions. There are so many examples of this in today's column it's impossible to cover them all, but here are a few:

Prager writes: For example, there are obviously only two possible ways to reduce government deficits: reduce spending or increase taxes (or some combination of both). The left advocates the later; the right advocates the former.

Phylo's response: In the current debate over health care, Democrats are proposing a cut of $500 billion dollars in waste, fraud, and abuse in Medicare and Medicaid over the next ten years. Republicans are arguing that this can't be done and will necessarily result in cuts in benefits. Apparently Republicans believe that there is no waste, fraud, and abuse to cut. So Prager is wrong. In the current debate, Republicans are fighting against cuts, Democrats are fighting for them.

to be continued


HouTex
Often it's because of a warped idea of what Divine charity (and justice) involves. Having lost Eden once, those who refuse to see that man is now not perfectible honestly believe they can yet bring about perfection, or at least some sort of 'fairness' about by making sure that no one has any more than any other. In other words, they're playing God-but in their likeness, not His. It is an idolatry of the highest order, is it not?

HouTex, the tithe and modern taxes
are apples & oranges.

The tithe was to support the Levites, who unlike the other tribes were not given land in Canaan. The closest modern analog to that would be our financial support of the pastor and staff of our local church.

Also, the tribes did their own policing and "national defense", whereas we pay the government to do it for us.


Having said that ... in my opinion, if the Federal gov't stayed within its constitutional limits, it would require a tax rate of less than 5%. Everything else should be to the local gov't, or voluntary contributions for charitable purposes.

Dennis you mock me as a Dem
with your opening debasement.

How do you get off calling all of us 'left'?

Why are we all 'left'?

You think we Dems must step aside while you conservatives who think you are the only people in America tell us we are the worst thing to ever happen and we want to destroy America?

Look, what is it with you?

I really want to know?

Are you writing and speaking to the crowd of paying supporters you've created, or do you have integrity of purpose?

I can't believe it's integrity because you are a paid talking head.

That's the catch-22. But, I can try and give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yet right this moment I read the first sentence, and this is my response. I read no further (yet).

interesting topic
Prager oddly conflates two issues here, whether taxes are high and whether they are progressive. Most of his arguments are addressed to the latter, but it is not hard to see why he can give his view the sheen of morality better by confusing the two.

We have seen shifts in how progressive the tax rates are over the last three decades, and the evidence suggests that in the range we now are, the more progressive rates have economic advantages. Anyway who wants the Bush economy over the Clinton one is welcome to it, but neither rich nor poor actually did better.

The moral arguments are more interesting here. Although not particularly convincing. (particularly since Prager leaves out the moral reasons for the alternative view, something that noone who was actual concerned about morality would do, making clear that this is more of a finding cover for an I want mine type of argument).

The argument against a progressive tax on the grounds that it should be based on equal percentages hass a kind of innumeracy at its root. One could imagine that someone would think everyone is equally protected by the government and so should pay the exact same amount, although any attempt to put such a poll tax in place shows its impossibility. But Prager does not bother to give a moral basis for everyone paying the same percentage. What would it even be based on, the fact that the state owns a certain percentage of ones labor? Presumably that is just what Prager's philosophy denies (and quite rightly that is a silly conception).

If one thinks that everyone should be making a similar sacrifice (the idea behind tithing) then an equal percentage clearly doesn't accomplish that. In fact a progressive tax does far more to capture this idea. The flat tax has the advantage of simplicity, although that is not itself a moral notion.

MikeH, yes gov't is a product of society
as are cars and MTV. This doesn't mean that those products have the same moral obligation as their creators.

God commands His people to care for those who need help, encourage those who can take care of themselves to do so, and to make that distinction. Each person has a moral obligation to do this voluntarily. Being forced to "contribute" does not make a person or a society or a gov't moral.

the other points
The other points have some interesting feature. The last three seem to largely turn on the fact that people's character suffers when taxes are too high. I assume that is a statistical claim and that Prager does not think that high taxes make one lose free will.

But, of course, poverty seems to have the same effect. And oddly, Prager does not think that public policy should be altered to keep people out of the kind of poverty that increases crime. If he was serious, wouldn't he be more concerned with addressing the kinds of circumstances that lead to needing to steal to eat, rather than those that lead to needing to cheat on ones taxes to avoid paying more than one wants.

He talks about people breaking the law to avoid falling into poverty (although the US has no tax rates anything like that) is he as sympathetic to people who break the law to get out of poverty? It seems not. His is a morality for rich people.

There are some reasons, both economic and moral, for not setting tax rates too high. But there is not a serious case here for not making taxes in the US more progressive than they currently are.

Phylo Se Fiser, on waste, fraud & abuse:
"Republicans are arguing that this can't be done and will necessarily result in cuts in benefits. Apparently Republicans believe that there is no waste, fraud, and abuse to cut."

That's idiotic. Saying that something cannot be eliminated does not imply belief that it doesn't exist.

Because gov't has no competition - and because waste, fraud & abuse are used to buy votes - they are inherent to anything government does.

Glad you used "usually"
'Second, higher taxes are usually economically counterproductive'

Yes, it can be argued with the word 'usually'.

But, let's be clear. Raising taxes has not crushed our economic growth, and actually has stimulated it.

Reagan passed one of the largest tax increases in history to correct his over zealous first year tax cuts.

Clinton passed tax increases with Republicans to control the deficit, but also used real cuts and spending controls and balanced the budget.

With some very negative workings by Gingrich, who wanted control more than he wanted to balance the budget.

Gingrich btw was hell bent on cuts to Medicare to balance the budget.

Look it up.

Your whole premise was revealed on radio
Mr. Prager, you are 100% pro letting corporations run amok.

You want nothing whatever done to see that regulations that are already on the books go enforced, rather you want total free will without concern for the corruption that is inherent in the people who run large amounts of money.

ENRON, being just one small but pure example.

Lon

What helps the poor more - welfare and food stamps or jobs?

There is one thing that you can bank on and that is this: The higher the tax rate, the higher the unemployment. Raise my taxes and I will layoff workers. I certainly will not be hiring whether the potential employees are middle class or the poor.

If you want a more permanent underclass than we have now, then go ahead and raise taxes. Hoover tried this and failed. FDR tried this and failed.

You cannot tax your way out of a recession, but you can tax your way into a depression. This was true in the 1930s and it is true now.

Please decide whether you are more interested in social justice or economic growth.

The problem with Prager continued
2) Prager writes: "...higher taxes are usually economically counterproductive. This does not matter to the left, however, because economic growth is not what most interests the left. Since Karl Marx, the left has always been far more interested in economic equality than in economic growth."

Phylo writes: This is utter nonsense. First of all, if a society has no taxes, it has no infrastructure, and a country without infrastructure cannot grow economically. See Somalia for proof. So the idea that taxes are usually economically counterproductive is false. Sometimes they can be, but every society needs taxes for infrastructure which can fuel economic growth.

Second, the left is interested in BOTH economic growth and equality of opportunity; but not equality of outcomes. No one on the left ever argues that everyone should have the same amount of wealth. No one! Prager's argument is highly over-simplified. His problem is that he assumes that the modern American left is Marxist. We are not.

But of course taxes are a moral issue. The left believes it's more fair and just to tax the rich at a higher rate because people who are living at a certain level of wealth can afford to pay more without losing anything in terms of quality of life or standard of living. At some point, another mansion does not increase your quality of life. Taxing the poor and middle class, however, usually means they have to cut back on some basic needs; like health care, for example.

Besides, if the inequality between the wealthy and the middle class gets too extreme, you end up with an oligarchy that funnels all of the wealth and power toward them leaving the middle class without power, wealth, or freedom. Look at Russia and Saudi Arabia. Prager seems to ignore the fact that economic inequality can be immoral.


You use biblical context, I will too
See it's really like this, Jesus wanted each to give according to there ability.

Recall that it was the least who gave the most, as it was all they had to give.

I'm not referring to the notion of giving Rome what is Rome's, I refer to how the poor give what portion they have, and it hurts them far more than the self-righteous rich who give so much and demand praise for their giving.

You think equality of giving is moral?

To the contrary it is very immoral.

Oh, I have erred a bit
Equality of giving was a trap.

Yes 10% does show that the poor give smaller amounts, and that the rich will undoubtedly give a larger.

But, it is still holding to my point that that 10% hurts the poor person in a huge way, while the 10% of that rich person does absolutely nothing to alter anything in their life.

So, it is my point that it is eqaul still to have the poor give 1% while the richest give 10%.
Except it is to my p.o.v. that the richest giving 40% as they did not long ago is much more fair, as they are not rich from the fruit of labor, but rather from the fruit of those who labor. That is if they invest in production, which helps our nation.

Investing purely in financial instruments leads us down a path that is not going to build jobs.

Unless one of those rich breaks away and invests in production.

So much to explain, so many traps laid.

Rick

It is interesting that you brought up ENRON, whose bankruptcy cost me several hundred thousand dollars. ENRON was the first major corporation that championed "carbon credits" to "prevent the end of the world." Now, we have Goldman-Sachs and General Electric taking up where ENRON left off. Both have already set up trading branches to handled carbon credits and stand to make more than $100bn while your energy costs and the prices that you pay for everything else will skyrocket. Further, guess who is very chummy with the Obama Administration? If you said GS and GE, congratulations. Jeffrey Immelt is one of Obama's closest advisers and sits on the board of the NY Federal Reserve Bank.

Immelt is Obama's "Kenny Boy".

Rick

Jesus was not Karl Marx. He was not a Socialist. He believed in charity. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was a tax collector or worked for Caesar? He definitely did not believe that people should be slaves to Caesar.

St. does investing help the poor?
What production increases are we having?

Unless there are production increases, or the demand that we had returns, how will we ever get back to 4% unemployment?

We have to have investment in production righ now?

Are the rich doing that or are they standing about complaining about all their financial investment losses?

They're complaining and not doing the work that will put America to work.

Show me different.

St. that's not my debate
I'm debating that Jesus acutally showed that the poorest gave more when they gave the little they had, while the richest who acted like they gave so much were not put out.

This is to counter Mr. Prager's assertion about taxing equally per his reference to the Bible.

He takes what he wanted that fit his argument, I take what I want that shows he needs to add to his argument the broader scope of what Jesus showed to be true.

I don't want Prager getting away with making a point with a one sided view, while what I show explains more fully what is important via a moral stand.

St. that news bodes ill about GS and GE
I'll ask you about it later.

I have to get off to work.

Have a very nice day.

Useless Idiot
"The only "moral" tax cuts are tax cuts for everyone who actually pays taxes."

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2008 were $2.66 trillion. The top three sources are:

* $1.25 trillion - Individual income tax
* $927.2 billion - Social Security/payroll taxes
* $314.9 billion - Corporate income tax

You may casually dismiss Social Security taxes as not a "real" tax, but $927 billion is a real number, and EVERYONE pays that on their first dollar earned.

You'll notice that the taxes paid by individuals is nearly 7 times what corporations pay. What do you think about that?

The Social Security and Medicare tax collected each year is nearly three times larger than the tax collected on corporations, and yet, you may be a 'whiner and moaner' about the dreaded corporate tax.



My tax cheat
I buy things in states with lower sales tax rates (usually while traveling), which I am supposed to declare on my state return and pay the difference to my state. I don't.

Rick

Of course, investments help the poor. When I invest in a company, my money acts in several different way. First, it allows the corporation to have working capital so that it can hire more employees. Second, it allows for the corporation to invest in technology, which helps all people regardless of "class". Third, it allows corporations to sponsor local endeavors that range from food banks to ballets.

About GE & GS, the news is very disturbing. I forgot to tell you that last spring, Obama agreed to guarantee the loans of GE, which amount to more than $70bn.

zap
we don't count ss or medicare because "supposedly" they are paying for services they will receive directly. Not at all the same thing as income taxes which almost 50% don't pay.

And corporate taxes are utimtaely paid by the consumer of their goods and services.

The truly wealthy don't pay taxes, big business doesn't pay taxes in a real sense, and the poor don't pay taxes. Who pays taxes? High achievers like doctors, professional athletes, successful small businessmen, etc. And the middle to upper middle classes.

And I thin you know this very well, it's just that it's hard to gin up class warfare with a soak the middle class rallying cry.

St. Denis In Obama's Red Amerika
"I am so sick of Liberals arguing against tax cuts for corporations and individuals. First of all, the money does not belong to the government or them."

It's exciting to constantly prattle on about tax cuts during a time of war, isn't it?

I wonder if people talked about tax cuts during WWII?

It's exciting for Republicans like Denis to talk about tax cuts while blowing pork barrel spending through the roof, adding yet another entitlement spending program, charging into wars, increasing farm subsidies up the ying-yang, doubling the size of the Department of Education and on and on and on.

Here's a suggestion, have a Tea Party to get rid of all your spending you could never be bothered to pay for; implement an action plan to remove that spending and then successfully carry out said program.

Then and only then can you prattle on about tax cuts. Hypocrite!

If you Republicans increase the size of government (two half times more adding than under Bubba) THEN PAY FOR IT!!!






Stuck On Stupid, Zappy!

In WWII, everyone worked and paid taxes. Now, 50% of Americans work so that the other half does not.

Listen up, dudey! Confiscate all of the wealth in the country. Do it now. Just remember that you have one bite at the apple and be prepared for the poor to starve and unemployment to soar higher than it was in WWII.

zapdoodat

Well I don't know about all that.

I do know the only moral tax cut is a tax cut for people who actually pay taxes.

Mr. Prager
Absolutely correct. We all have to pay some kind of tax, SS, Medicaid, Medicare, and Income tax. SS tax is a scam; we tax the young to pay the old. Medicaid, and Medicare are pay for someone else’s medical care. The rich pay fed income taxes primarily, and consumers pay corporate income taxes. And lets not even talk about the state taxes. I don’t mind paying taxes to support the military, or build roads. But I do resent section 8, welfare, food stamps, and free food at school for 45% of all student! I am a maintenance manager, and make good money, yet my kids qualify for free lunch and breakfast. Something is wrong with a system that already pays for 1/3 of Americans health/medical care. Democrats use the taxation system for control and power. That is why they hate a flat tax.
Kirk

Who is the right?
Prager says, "For example, there are obviously only two possible ways to reduce government deficits: reduce spending or increase taxes (or some combination of both). The left advocates the later; the right advocates the former."

Who are the right? I didn't notice any decrease in spending when we had a Republican president and both houses of congress controlled by the Republican party. I think what we have is not a right, but two lefts, one left of center and one far left, but we do not have a right.

There are probably members of both parties who lean further to the right that the party itself, but their voices are few and far between.

Stuck On Stupid, Zappy!

If it were up to me, the Federal government would be less than 10% of what it is now. Elect me as President and watch the size of government shrink because I would veto every bill that failed to meet my requirements. No compromises.

Zapdoodai
You can chide Denis...but let me ask you a simple factual question:

can you show me where cutting taxes has hurt reasury revenue?

Here is a hint: you can't, because every time taxes have been cut, revenue has increased.

If this fact is too hard for you to believe, let me ask you a simpler question: when your local auto dealer wants to increase car sales, does he raise or lower prices?

Ah...he lowers prices, knowing that increased sales at a lower per unit profit will bring in greater profit. Had he raised prices, he would have sold few cars, albeit at a higher margin.

Get it?

St. Denis In Obama's Red Amerika
"Elect me as President and watch the size of government shrink"

Careful folks, this is how a Republican talks. When Bubba Clinton was president the Republican party kept haranguing that the Department of Education should be abolished. All well and good for now.

Guess what, when George W. Bush became president, Denny Hastert(R) was Speaker of the House and Trent Lott(R) was Senate Majority Leader, these Republicans passed legislation that DOUBLED the size of the Department of Education.

I would have more respect for them if they said not one tax cut until I have actually cut something.


Once again, it seems like we need a tax increase just to pay for all of the Republican spending increases from 2001-2007.



Dallas
"Here is a hint: you can't, because every time taxes have been cut, revenue has increased."

All the borrowing and spending, borrowing and spending and more borrowing and spending during the George Bush years has, in itself, had the ability to raise tax revenues.

Here's how,
For example, borrow $400 million from China, then, Congress decides we need a critical infrastructure investment project like "a bridge to some island, populated with 40 people, somewhere in Alaska."

The U.S.A. borrows the money, pays the workers, and the workers pay income tax. If the construction company is unlucky, it may have to pay some corporate tax too. This is one project, now multiply all the above by 14,287. Feel free to pick another country to borrow from.

Feel free to double the size of the Department of Education. Feel free to increase entitlement spending with Medicare Prescription (part D), and free to spend $150 billion on two wars, every year, and, in general, feel free to increase domestic spending across the board. Well, sorry, I lied, cut Amtrak, but who needs mass transit when the President tells us, "we are addicted to foreign oil as never before."


Dallas
You like to pass out the cake and ice cream but will whine when it comes to taking the medicine.

It was Republicans (2001-2007) who spent more than the previous set of Democrats . They increased pork barrel spending from 3,000 to 14,000 projects a year, billed to the national credit card.

They have engaged in a seven year social engineering project in the Middle East that costs $120 billion a year and may well last another 100 years, billed to the national credit card.

They have added another layer of entitlement spending that costs $50 billion a year called Medicare Prescription, billed to the national credit card.

Mandated $4 billion a year in ethanol subsidies, as well as drastically increased cotton, sugar, soybean, corn, wheat handouts, billed to the national credit card.

Doubled the size of the Department of Education, billed to the national credit card.

How would you have paid for all this spending?

How about a gas tax to pay for the 100 year presence in Iraq?

How about a gas tax to pay for our unending naval presence in the Gulf of Hormuz?




MikeH
“Isn't government a product of society?”

Good question. Chris from AL has already given you a good answer, but please allow me to elaborate.

Point 1: As Thomas Paine wrote in “Common Sense”, “Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; It is because of mankind’s sinful nature that any government is required at all.

Point 2: We cannot delegate to government powers that we don’t have. This is best illustrated by an example, quoted from an article I wrote back in March.

“Let’s say you lived in early America and migrated to the mostly unoccupied Midwest as it was being settled. Initially, there was no one living for miles around, and so personal security was not a particular concern. But then as more and more settlers arrived, some of them decided that what was yours could be theirs. Since you didn’t have time to defend your property 24x7 because you’re working the crops, you and some of your other nearest neighbors decide to elect and pay a “sheriff” to protect your property. You delegate to the sheriff your natural right to protect your property, and he acts for you and in return is justly compensated. Thus the first government is formed in your local community. Now a key point: under natural law, you can only delegate to the sheriff powers that you possess. You cannot give the sheriff powers that you don’t have, such as the power to take some corn from farmer Jones five miles to the south, because he had a good crop, and yours was lost to insects.”

But this immoral, “legal” confiscation of personal property from some for the benefit of others whom the Federal government believes are more deserving is exactly what we have today.

The full article can be found here:
http://opinionatedoldman.blogspot.com/search/label/Coming%2 0Out%20of%20the%20Closet

Moral issues/taxation
Love it!

I am debating NOT returning to work because the lovely $250,000 + tax burden disincentive is so great- essentially I'd be paying the governments of the US and New Jersey to actually go to work! I'm less stressed raising my 4 children and keeping the house in order, so a part or full-time job will only stress this family out! Earning more would be great for the coming college bills and our economy, but working to give all of the earnings back because of the income bracket is senseless.

And yes, houses cost a fortune in NJ, so MANY NJ families must have two wage earners. Fortunately, our family can frugally make a go of it without. We haven't done what many families have, overspent to live the consumer-Hollywood-driven lifestyle.

Perhaps Hollywood liberals pushing the propaganda could ante up about 90% of their incomes! Let's hear them scream!

TV turnoff year would do wonders!


Stuck On Stupid, Zappy!

If I were a Republican, you would have a point, but since I am not, you are acting stupidly, as usual.

What kind of logic
is it that says the only way to make a poor man better off is to give him his daily bread, rather than expect him to earn it? We petition GOD to give us our daily bread, through the efforts of using the gifts He gives us. Yes, He looks even after the sparrows, but notice He NEVER throws the worm into the nest.

Jesus' story of the poor widow giving her all was a way of saying that charity ought to mean we actually sacrifice something. Nowadays that might mean a satellite/cable/internet subscription, tattoos, cigarettes, beer, eating out, and other discretionary items. For 'the rich', it might not mean much in practical terms; foregoing a yacht might not be a sacrifice when you're talking about folks who can not only buy the yacht but can also donate millions to support, say, the Shriner's hosptials. But it has never meant we impoverish ourselves.

Third Moral problem is WRONG!
"A third moral problem is allowing those who pay no tax (such as the federal income tax) to vote on how much others will be forced to pay. It is quite difficult to morally defend the fact that about half of Americans pay no federal income tax, yet they determine how much the other half will be forced to pay. "

They call us tax cheats because we choose NOT to pay the IRS extortion money. You really need to find out the facts. Like tithing, it is voluntary, not mandatory. File a 1040 and you give up your 5th ammendment rights. Fact.

http://www.w3f.com/patriots/statement.html

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last." -- Winston Churchill--

"No law compels a work eligible man or woman to submit a form W-4 or
W-9(or their equivalent) nor disclose an SSN as a condition of being
hired or keeping one's job. With the exception of an order from a court
of competent jurisdiction, no amounts can be lawfully taken from one's
pay (for taxes, fees or other charges) without the worker's explicit,
knowing, voluntary, written consent."

That includes withholding.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd26.htm

Get educated, or keep feeding the crocodile.

On March 1, 2004, the IRS issued Revenue Ruling 2004-30: "United States
citizens and residents of the United States are not subject to tax on their
wages and other income earned or derived within the United States."

I am not a tax cheat if I refuse to be extorted. Legally.


You make no sense!
"At a certain level of taxation, virtually every honest person is reduced to cheating either legally or illegally."

How are you calling someone a 'cheat' if the do it legally?

"Some people figure out how to avoid paying what the law demands through completely legal, but ethically questionable, means. "

How is it "ethically questionable" to follow the law?

"It is quite difficult to morally defend the fact that about half of Americans pay no federal income tax, yet they determine how much the other half will be forced to pay."

Totally wrong.
1. Easy to defend, if done according to the law.
2. Half know the law, the others choose otherwise.
3. Those that pay determine how much they pay in IRS extortion money, by being ignorant of the law.


FairTax is the answer? NFW!

Why a flat tax?
Why an income tax?
Why a Federal Sales Tax?

Why not cut spending?

"You can never tax a country into prosperity, only slavery." http://w3f.com/patriots

Not one dime of the graduated income tax pays for any government service in any way shape or form. Fact.


The Ostrich Media
ALERT! Charlie Gibson just told WLS Radio hosts the reason he has not reported on ACORN story "(he) didn't know about it."

The former MSM doesn't care how your tax dollars are spent or if corruption on a vast scale is going on in an organization that receives them.

Alan
Thanks for answering, or at least starting to answer, my question. I read over your coming out of the libertarian closet writing. And have a couple of more questions.

First, you seem to use the word government as a reference to the federal government. Should I infer that when you say government you are talking specifically about the federal government and not state and local governments?

Second, what are you thoughts on the respective roles of federal, state, and local governments?

Also, War Eagle!

JRBeaman, the FairTax is the answer -
because it lets people see how much their gov't costs EVERY TIME THEY BUY SOMETHING!

Ultimately this will motivate people to throw big-spenders out of office, and cut spending.

Note that the FairTax plan includes the repeal of the 16th Amendment, and the abolition of all income, payroll, estate, and corporate taxes. It is a replacement for the existing system, not an addition.

Right now there is no political will to cut spending - what do you plan to do about it?

IDIOT: zapdoodat #2 above
Your entire comment is ignorant and just petty Bush Bashing.

Facts:

1. The Income tax does not pay for war.
2. The Income Tax does not pay for any services.
3. The Income tax is extortion of the ignorant.
4. Not paying the Income tax legally is not cheating.

also:

5. It is Congress that makes the Laws, Not the president.
6. The Congress approved of all you claim above.
7. The Congress of Nancy Palosi and Harry Ried are who fleeced us, and Bush was a wimp to not veto the bills.
8. Congress is making up the Obamacare fiasco, where Obama is only trying to sell it.
9. Congress did the illegal bailout and illegal industry takeovers, not Obama.
10. Congress (Nancy Palosi) passed Obama to illegally run for president when he is obviously not eligible.

Please learn the facts, the law and the truth before spouting off with your ignorance views.


JRBeaman YES, STARVE THE BEAST !!
Reply # 67
11:40 AM EST
You are right, there are many ways to legally avoid big government's hands in our pockets.

When my son went off to college I taught him how to set up a small business in his apartment, so half of his college costs were tax deductible.

Years ago, my accountant told me, "When in Doubt, Deduct". This worked for me while operating a small business for 15 years and I paid few taxes. The tax code is very complex, but can be used to your advantage when you undertand it.

- At the beginning of the 20th century, federal taxes accounted for less than 3 percent of the nation's gross domestic product, and the entire tax code and regulations filled just a few hundred pages. Today, federal taxes account for 20 percent of GDP and federal tax rules cover more than 46,000 pages.

In 2000, the IRS estimates that Americans will spend 6.1 billion hours, more than 3 million person-years, complying with the federal tax system. As a consequence, the IRS national taxpayer advocate says the complex tax laws represent the '`most serious problem facing taxpayers.''

Charie Rangel, Tom Daschle and Timothy Geithner know the complexity of the tax codes and used it to their advantage.

The original Tea Party in Boston was about taxation. We should starve the beast, big government and maybe, just maybe, they will learn to reduce the waste of our tax dollars.

More Income Tax info for the ignorant::

The 'Income Tax' is not a tax on income!

"The income tax is, therefore, not a tax on income as such. It is an excise tax with respect to certain activities and privileges which is measured by reference to the income which they produce. The income is not the subject of the tax: it is the basis for determining the amount of the tax."
- written by a former legislative draftsman for the Treasury Department.

On March 1, 2004, the IRS issued Revenue Ruling 2004-30: "United States
citizens and residents of the United States are not subject to tax on their
wages and other income earned or derived within the United States."

If so, then why are you paying it?
The Income Tax pays for no returned services, and is only enforced by extortion.

Look up the definition of extortion.

Queensbury, NY – On January 25, 2005, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit held that taxpayers cannot be compelled by the IRS to turn over personal and private property to the IRS, absent a federal court order.

Quoting from the decision (Schulz v. IRS, Case No. 04-0196-cv),

“...absent an effort to seek enforcement through a federal court, IRS summonses apply no force to taxpayers, and no consequence whatever can befall a taxpayer who refuses, ignores, or otherwise does not comply with an IRS summons until that summons is backed by a federal court order…[a taxpayer] cannot be held in contempt, arrested, detained, or otherwise punished for refusing to comply with the original IRS summons, no matter
the taxpayer's reasons, or lack of reasons for so refusing.”

The more you parrot the ignorant lies, the more you help the downfall of our once great country.

Bush Was Not A Conservative - I
“What is this movement you keep talking about in the speech?” the president asked Latimer.

Latimer explained that he meant the conservative movement — the movement that gave rise to groups like CPAC.

Bush seemed perplexed. Latimer elaborated a bit more. Then Bush leaned forward, with a point to make.

“Let me tell you something,” the president said. “I whupped Gary Bauer’s arze in 2000. So take out all this movement stuff. There is no movement.”

Bush seemed to equate the conservative movement — the astonishing growth of conservative political strength that took place in the decades after Barry Goldwater’s disastrous defeat in 1964 — with the fortunes of Bauer, the evangelical Christian activist and former head of the Family Research Council whose 2000 presidential campaign went nowhere.

Now it was Latimer who looked perplexed. Bush tried to explain.

“Look, I know this probably sounds arrogant to say,” the president said, “but I redefined the Republican Party.”

I don’t think there’s any doubt about that last statement. Before Bush’s election, the Republican majorities in Congress had worked themselves into a role of fiscal responsibility and a check on Bill Clinton’s more expansive notions of government. After Bush took office, however, the two branches of government went on a spending spree, and not coincidentally a lobbyist lovefest, that threw out the GOP’s credibility on fiscal responsibility in six short years. Bush and his big-spending policies (and K Street strategy) set the stage for the Democrats to seize control of Congress in the 2006 midterms and a Democratic takeover of the White House last year.


Tax the rich LESS!
Whoa, Dennis-"government should help those incapable of helping themselves"? In what section of the Constitution do you find that, pray? As you allude later, that is the domain of private charities.
As far as the matter of taxing the rich; the left has sold the notion that if you have more, you owe more and if you have less-no matter what the reason-it is owed to YOU!
True fairness would dictate, however, that, since taxes are nothing more than the price we pay for government services, the rich don't owe any more than the next guy. In fact you could make a pretty good arguement that they owe less because they use less of those services! They don't use public transportation, their kids go to private schools etc.
Thank you for being a bastion of good sense in a sea of folly.

Bush Was Not A Conservative - II
“Many of us admired Bush for his stalwart policies on national security and the war. But starting in 2002, we began to figure out that Bush was no conservative on domestic policy, but instead at best a centrist, and probably more of a Rockefeller Republican, with one big exception: abortion. It started with his partnership with Ted Kennedy on No Child Left Behind, especially when he threw away school vouchers to keep Kennedy on board, and again with Medicare Part D, a brand new entitlement on an already sinking program.

However, Bush had never been considered a movement conservative before running for President.”


http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/15/bush-2008-there-is-no -conservative-movement/



MikeH,
Only left-liberals equate society with government.

Government is the least important tool in society's toolbox. It has legitimate functions that only government can do -- national defense first among them -- but it pales in comparison to what the people themselves, alone or in groups, can do.

In a free country the elected officials are our servants, not our masters.

More IDIOCY by zapdoodat

"You may casually dismiss Social Security taxes as not a "real" tax, but $927 billion is a real number, and EVERYONE pays that on their first dollar earned."

Uh, SS is a voluntary payment into a Government run retirement program, not a TAX!

The same can be said about Medicare.

You need to remove them from your equations.

Taxes on products and services is not the same as the Income Tax. You get something from them, like roads, and local services.

You are all mixing up them together and they are not related at all. Your ignorance is showing.


St. Denis,
AMEN. Preach it, Sister!


JRBeaman, isn't your "loophole" the one
Wesley Snipes got busted for, and failed to convince the court that such a loophole exists?

JRBeamon
"Uh, SS is a voluntary payment into a Government run retirement program,"

Please let me know how you opted out, my friend.




Zapdoodat?
My word, what the heck are you about?

If I told you that I believe in the ideas founding the United States, what am I to you?

It is evident to me, that you want something from me, but you have no clue who I am, why I am, or what I live by each day.

You want to spread your misery to me. I want you to leave me alone. I don't want what you work for, so why do you want what I work for?

It isn't a riddle.

More idiocy by zapdoodat

Reply # 62

"It was Republicans (2001-2007) who spent more than the previous set of Democrats . They increased pork barrel spending from 3,000 to 14,000 projects a year, billed to the national credit card."

Uh, enough of your ignorant Bush Bashing.

The Democratic majority of Congress did all the pork barrel spending, not Bush or the Republicans. You can thank Harry Reed (D) and Nancy Palosi (D), the controllers of the Democrat Senate and House for these expenditures. (And the veto-pen-wimp GWB for allowing it.)

You obviously have no clue to how our government runs.

Lon,
Once again,

Enlighten us with your stunning brilliance in explaining how treating everyone exactly alike -- this time by having them pay the exact same amount of tax on every dollar earned whether its the first dollar or the millionth dollar -- can possibly be unfair?

The concept behind progressive taxation is that it is somehow "unfair" for a person to work harder, be smarter, or apply his/her talents more effectively than another -- envy, pure and ugly. There is no possible moral argument in favor of envy.

The graduated income tax
Didn't Marx come up with the concept of the graduated income tax?

Frankly, I don't wish to have my country adopt anything Marxist at all.

Go directly to the fair tax.

Raise zero bracket to a livable threshhold. Somewhere in the 40%-60% level.

I like to read the tax law and yes, there is a certain "morality" that can be found in it, however, it sure isn't my Bible.

I'm sick to death of hearing: "soak the rich". People just don't get it that "the rich" are the employers and workers in this country. STOP MAKING HAVING MORE MONEY THAT THE GUY UNDER YOU A MORTAL SIN! It is simply unhealthy to promote jealousy. Last time I checked, it was a Cardinal sin.






Lon,
Backwards again.

Poverty does not increase crime. People who are inclined toward irresponsibility and thus are likely to commit crimes are poor because of that very irresponsibility which led them into making bad life-choices.

"Avoiding long-term poverty is not rocket science. First, graduate from high school. Second, get married before you have children, and stay married. Third, work at any kind of job, even one that starts out paying the minimum wage. And, finally, avoid engaging in criminal behavior." Walter Williams

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4223

JRBeamon
"The Democratic majority of Congress did all the pork barrel spending,"

Someone should let you know who Ted Stevens(R) was. He was the senator from Alaska who yelled and screamed for his "Bridge to Nowhere" project. Nancy Pelosi and the Democrat killed his Republican pet project.

Friends, let's not forget that the Speaker of the House was a Republican from January, 1995 through January, 2007.

Pork barrel spending increased from 3,000 to 14,000 annual projects from 2001-2006. George W. Bush was president from January, 2001 through January, 2009. When you see the overlap in leadership, that's when you see a big increase in the size of government.


Confusion,
I see that lefties, who see everything through the window of politics, still can't get their mind around the idea that there Republican and Conservative are very far from being the same thing.

JRBeamon
"Taxes on products and services is not the same as the Income Tax."

How are we paying for the Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, my friend?


Excuse me,
Typing with a rambunctious 3yo flying toy airplanes around my desk chair caused a typo.

The 12:50 post should have read,

"lefties, who see everything through the window of party politics,"

Appologies.

Too much ignorance.
chris Reply # 82

"JRBeaman, isn't your "loophole" the one
Wesley Snipes got busted for, and failed to convince the court that such a loophole exists?"

Not a loophole. Read the law.

Failure in court does not mean he was wrong. OJ Simpson won in court too. Your premise is faulty.

I have quoted you the law above, and you obviously are blinded by your ignorance. Vernice Kuglin won in court against the IRS as have many others.

--

zapdoodat Reply # 83

"Uh, SS is a voluntary payment into a Government run retirement program,"

Please let me know how you opted out, my friend.



Your signature is the most powerful thing you own. When you sign that you will agree to something, you are held to it. It is not an issue of opting out, you are not required by law to opt-in to anything you don't want.

Please read the law before spouting off your continual and irritating, and distracting ignorance.

The government can only accept your voluntary income tax or SS payments if BOTH you and your employer agree to deduct it. Unfortunately, most employers and employees think that they have to agree to it. By law, they don't.

Go read the law and quit spouting off with old wives tales that have no foundation in law.

zapdoodat must have failed the 4th grade
zapdoodat Reply # 91

"Taxes on products and services is not the same as the Income Tax."

How are we paying for the Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, my friend?


Answer: Like I said, not with the Income Tax.
Repeat: The Income Tax pays for no services.

There is an old saying: "Follow the money."
Therein lies your answer.

Your continual insults and disrespect for those that obviously know more than you is getting tiresome.

Answer for Catherine Reply # 87
" The graduated income tax
Didn't Marx come up with the concept of the graduated income tax?

Frankly, I don't wish to have my country adopt anything Marxist at all.

Go directly to the fair tax.

Raise zero bracket to a livable threshhold. Somewhere in the 40%-60% level."

Uh, how about NO 'Income Tax', no 'Flat Tax'.

Our government did just fine with other sources of revenue for over a hundred years. They do not need more money, they need to live within their means, just like us.

Fact: The 'Graduated Income Tax' does not cover the overhead of running the IRS.

As it is now, the Income Tax is not required, as stated above. The purpose is to 'hurt' the people. No more no less. It also hurts our country. Supporters of the 'income Tax' or those that parrot its requirement, do a disservice to all Americans.

If you replace it with a 'flat tax' yuo have now made this extortion legal, where before, it was not.

No, The FED does not need to tax our country into slavery, it needs to follow the Constitution.

If Bushes tax cuts got them more revenue (proven, don't ask again) then why would the democrats want to raise the Income Tax?

Sounds like Obama saying that Obama Care won't cost us anything when the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) says it will cost a trillion dollars up to 10 trillion?

You are being fooled. Please find out the facts for yourself, as is obvious on this page alone, most people including Pather have no clue, and for some reason, feel it's fun to broadcast disinformation, and are proud of doing it?






Kudos to Mother of 4
Your comments here are enlightening.
Thanks for adding a bit of sanity onto the ignorant fray.

JRBeamon
"Our government did just fine with other sources of revenue for over a hundred years."

So true friend, but the USA was not engaged in a 100 year Republican social engineering project in Iraq in those days either.

The USA did not have thousands of combat and support troops in Japan, Europe and dozens of other countries throughout the world also in those long begotten days either.





JRBeamon
"The FED does not need to tax our country into slavery,"

A casual perusal of the United States Constitution will tell you that the President and the Congress make the laws.


JRBeamon
"Answer: Like I said, not with the Income Tax.
Repeat: The Income Tax pays for no services."

You have to be a 'Birther?'



Zappy

The President does not "make" the laws. Congress "makes" law. Remember "Congress shall make no law"? The President can either sign legislation into law as it appears on his desk or he can veto it.

Tithing
Dennis, tithing has NOTHING to do with taxes. Tithing is giving back the first 10%(before taxes or anything else) of your income TO GOD. The purpose being to acknowledge GOD as the one who provides evrything and who ownes everything. We are just given a small percentage of what GOD owns to be stewards thereof. The tithe acknowledges these facts, it is NOT a tax and has nothing to do with the subject.

R.L. Reply # 77 Tax the rich LESS?

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents..." --James Madison

Like the new outrageous tax on cigarettes, the left continues to legislate morality. That is not it's job.

What has REALLY hosed us all is actually coming from the FED, and those that run this non-federal company.

"I sincerely believe... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson

Remember how Regan beat Russia? You can't beat the United States with war. We are too good technically (love the F22 Raptor) and our service men are the best, ever. No, and you can't attack the people, because we have privately owned firearms.

The way to beat us is to kill us economically.
If you look at the way our 'government' has been operating,
they are succeeding on two fronts:
1. Dumbing down of the people.
2. Ruin us financially.

We are becoming a banana republic.

I weep for our children and grandchildren, who brought up in prosperity will live as slaves to the New World Order.

Our only possible course of action is for the ignorant (only meaning not enough knowledge to discuss the subject intelligently) people to start learning and parroting facts instead of propaganda fed them by the socialists.

We are, by definition a Republic. The Democrats, by definition want to change that.

I don't want them to.

On Marxists and Taxes

You have to pinch yourself when a Marxist radical who all his life has been mentored by, sat at the feet of, worshiped with, befriended, endorsed the philosophy of, funded and been in turn funded, politically promoted and supported by a nexus comprising black power anti-white racists, Jew-haters, revolutionary Marxists, unrepentant former terrorists and Chicago mobsters, is now the President of the United States. And, apparently it's considered impolite to say

St. Denis In Obama's Red Amerika
"The President does not "make" the laws. Congress "makes" law."

Doesn't Congress pass bills and when the President signs it, it becomes law?





JRBeamon
"You have to pinch yourself when a Marxist radical..."

George W. Bush is a Marxist?

eorge Bush, Hank Paulson and the Republican party told top bankers last fall, that "they would have to accept government investment for the good of the American financial system."

Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's socialist president, found this a stunning move. He said, "Bush is to the left of me now!, Comrade Bush announced he will buy shares in private banks. Viva La Revolution!"

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE49F0K72008101 6



JRBeamon: zapdoodat
JRBeamon ---

Can you tell me what "zapdoodat" stands for, in general terms.

It seems you pinch her/his/their nerve with your volleys ....

Curiosity is my reason.

zapdoodat - enough of your ignorance
zapdoodat Reply # 98

JRBeaman "The FED does not need to tax our country into slavery,"

A casual perusal of the United States Constitution will tell you that the President and the Congress make the laws.

--

You are too casual, Congress writes all the law, it is only the Presidents duty to either sign it or veto it.

---------

zapdoodat Reply # 99
JRBeaman "Answer: Like I said, not with the Income Tax.
Repeat: The Income Tax pays for no services."

You have to be a 'Birther?'

--

What does that have to do with commenting on the facts and law on Income Taxes?

If you can't argue the subject with sufficient knowledge, the definition of ignorance, you begin attacking the messenger on a personal level. Very typical of ignorant statists. Like misspelling my name. And you only go by some childish handle, as though you were ashamed to let anyone know who you are. Your childish, ignorant rhetoric is really getting quite tiresome.

Most everyone here has responded to your rants in an honest attempt to help you understand what is really going on, and all you can do is ignore us when we obviously know more and you still continue with your childish ignorant socialist crap.

S
T
F
U


Peter, isn't it obvious?
First my name is not JRBeamon, it is JRBeaman.

Zapdoodat, in my humble opinion is an ignorant childish antagonist.

If not in true life, then it is the role he is playing here today.

Yes, I seem to egg him on,as they say.
I think the truth hurts.

But, in explaining where he is so wrong, it give me a chance to all those that believe what he spouts, to provide facts and law that show how terribly wrong this whole page is.

This page is based on false assumptions.

The problem is that you have to correct the bad assumptions before you can even debate the question at hand.

Thanks for asking.



JRBeamon
"If you can't argue the subject with sufficient knowledge,"

Let's summarize. It's time for you Republicans out there to man-up.

It was six years of Republican 'cut taxes and spend like drunken sailors' attitude that led to this debt bubble implosion. It was six years of financial industry deregulation mentality that led to Wall Street's rampant greed run amok. It's an endless social engineering project in Iraq that is and will continue to hollow out our American economy.

It was Republicans (2001-2007) who spent more than the previous set of Democrats . They increased pork barrel spending from 3,000 to 14,000 projects a year, billed to the national credit card.

They have engaged in a seven year social engineering project in the Middle East that costs $120 billion a year and may well last another 100 years, billed to the national credit card.

They have added another layer of entitlement spending that costs $50 billion a year called Medicare Prescription, billed to the national credit card.

Mandated $4 billion a year in ethanol subsidies, as well as drastically increased cotton, sugar, soybean, corn, wheat handouts, billed to the national credit card.

Doubled the size of the Department of Education, billed to the national credit card.

How would you have paid for all this spending? It took 210 years for the first $5 trillion of debt and only 7 years of Republican control to more than double it. It's nigh time for some fiscal Republicanism.



zapdoodat - all credibility gone.

zapdoodat Reply # 105

JRBeamon" You have to pinch yourself when a Marxist radical..."

George W. Bush is a Marxist?

--

Uh, George Bush is not our president any more.

Mother of 4
Poverty doesn't increase crime, but high tax rates do? That is pretty funny.

So how would you explain to Prager that he is wrong that high tax rates will make hard working people with character not work hard, and cheat on their taxes, and lose their charitable interest in their fellow man?

brilliant
A "right" upper cut by Prager and the "Left" is down for the count! Brilliant analysis of this issue, Dennis!

Mother of 4
Are you serious about your question how it could be unfair to tax someone according to a percentage of their income as long as it is the same income? Would it be fair to charge tenants in an apartment complex according to a percentage of their income with everyone paying the same part? But how could that be unfair given that everyone is being treated the same?

The point is that confusing the paying the same percentage of their income with paying the same thing is a superficial error. We don't consider those things the same in other contexts because they are not.

It would be at least a more consistent picture to demand an actual flat tax, with everyone paying the same amount, although it is pretty clear that such a system is not actually workable. It is consistent.

Once one realizes that the only workable system is one in which people pay in part according to the abiltiy to pay, then the question becomes what is the right division. And the idea that there is some magic about everyone paying the same percentage should easily be seen to be silly. It is just one of many choices requiring some kind of justification that is hard to make.

St Denis
I think that the poor would prefer jobs to welfare and food stamps. That is why the image of welfare as something that leads people to spurn jobs has always been seen to be nonsense.

But I would certainly rather have the employment rates we had under Clinton than those we had under Bush or Reagan, wouldn't you?

And for those people who do not have jobs I would rather there be food stamps and welfare available than nothing.

You do not tax your way out of a recession, but we are not likely to be in a recession for long. In general one does not balance the budget as a way out of a recession. But it is not a bad idea, although pretty un-Republican, to balance the budget, and even move towards surpluses, when the economy is growing.

Zap and Balanced, partners in idiocy
Bush this, Bush that, blah blah blah.

Once again, you two astound with your inability to grasp simple facts. Your savior has spent more money in 8 months than Bush did in 8 years. You don't drink a 12-pack, and the next day try to cure it by drinking a keg.
If you need a simpler analogy, just holler...

JRBeamon
"zapdoodat - all credibility gone."

I'll try to get some back.

How about starting to pay for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, other than issuing U.S. Debt securities to foreign countries for a change.

How about paying for Medicare Prescription Part D, which was passed when George W. Bush was president, Denny Hastert(R) was Speaker of the House and Bill Frist(R) was Senate Majority Leader?



JRBeaman
JRBeaman --- I apologize for the misspelling of your name.

I notice everyone here understand many portions of what Dennis was trying to convey, basically we live under 'confiscatory taxation' and the point where the masses decide it is "enough" has arrived.

A million became a billion became now a trillion in our discussion of federal spending.

Might as well say "gazillion" -- so my young one tell me -- as they try to grasp numbers so large they shut down the mind.

Keep fighting on in an effort to correct bad assumptions, misinformation, antagonistic banal banter, etc.

I would relish a face-to-face with anyone trash-talking my humanity, telling me what is mine is actually theirs. Words they may speak, but the courage and conviction to actually do it to me themselves, I do not think they possess. THAT is why they LOVE big government = State and Federal (and in my case, County --- ugh!)--- it does the 'taking' for them.

Gary in Illionios
Gary --- thanks ...... now I'm thirsty. :-)

Lon,
You can't tell the difference between a flat rate and a flat fee and you expect people to think that you have the answer to the question of morality and taxation?

Let me explain as I would to my 9yo.

Lay two, brand-new, unmarked dollar bills on the table. Fold them so that the serial number cannot be seen -- rendering them completely identical. One is the first dollar a minimum wage worker earned this year. The other is the millionth dollar an entrepreneur earned this year. Close your eyes while I shuffle them around.

Which dollar is which?

Point to the dollar that should go untaxed. Point to the dollar that should be heavily taxed. No, you cannot unfold them. You can't even touch them.

The dollars are EXACTLY the same. Each one holds the same value. Each one could be traded for 4 quarters, 10 dimes, or 100 pennies. Each one could buy you an identical soda in a vending machine (assuming you weren't at a highway rest area where you would need an extra quarter or two).

How can it possibly be fair to treat those dollars differently?

You're not interested in fairness at all. You're only interested in punishing success and rewarding failure.



Lon
Lon ---

Reduce the size, scope, spending, and un-delegated powers of every level of government.

Shrink the appetite. Keep more of what you EARN. Live within your means. When you have true need, visit the caring places a real community provides --- swallow your false 'pride' and ask for help, face-to-face.

It works, every time

Lon - I
"I think that the poor would prefer jobs to welfare and food stamps. That is why the image of welfare as something that leads people to spurn jobs has always been seen to be nonsense."

To a large degree, you are correct. Unfortunately, many folks have grown up in the welfare death cycle and they just assume that is the way life should be. We see a lot of evidence of this phenomenon in New Orleans where some families have been welfare-dependent since the 1960s.

"But I would certainly rather have the employment rates we had under Clinton than those we had under Bush or Reagan, wouldn't you?"

A few points: #1) Increased tax rates lower tax revenues, which is why JFK cut taxes across the board. #2) Clinton had the benefit of a Republican Congress forcing him to balance the budget. This gridlock kept spending from mushrooming. #3) It is highly unlikely that the Clinton tax rate would pay for our spending and retire the national debt. You might recall that Clinton's stimulus was considered obscene by most because it was, egads!, $30bn.

"And for those people who do not have jobs I would rather there be food stamps and welfare available than nothing."

As long as it is temporary in nature, but this should be a function of the states, not the Fed. govt.


Lon - II
"You do not tax your way out of a recession, but we are not likely to be in a recession for long."

Most recessions last an average of 18 months. We have already surpassed that time period.

"In general one does not balance the budget as a way out of a recession."

True, but Keynes and Morgenthau both considered FDR's Keynesianism spending to be counterproductive. If you look at my blog, I have an interesting article on it concerning Keynesians.

"But it is not a bad idea, although pretty un-Republican, to balance the budget, and even move towards surpluses, when the economy is growing."

First, I am not a Republican. Two, tax reductions cause increased tax revenues. We would pay off our debt faster if tax rates were reduced. The economy is not going to grow at a clip when corporations and investors are being taxed to the hilt. They sit on their money and don't spend it.

Zappy
"The President does not "make" the laws. Congress "makes" law."

Doesn't Congress pass bills and when the President signs it, it becomes law?

Zap, Congress "makes" laws. The President merely signs it into law, if he doesn't veto it. It is your use of "make" or "makes" that is the problem. The Constitution specifically uses the word "make" in conjunction with Congress alone.

JRBeamon
"zapdoodat - all credibility gone."

I'll try to get some back, one more time.

You can't increase spending the way George W. Bush and his fellow Republicans did without having a tax increase.

Let's face it, the Republicans did a good job of getting this country addicted to spending more than we collect in taxes.

In 2001, we had surplus's 'as far as the eye can see' according to Alan Greenspan. Now we have deficits as far as the eye can see.


food stamps
St. Denis, I agree with you on food stamps - that it should be a local matter, not a federal gov't matter.

But I'd take it a step further - keeping the poor from starving should be a function of the church and other charities, not any gov't.

Local churches are in a far superior position to determine who is truly in need of such help -and who just needs to get off their tail and work. Giving to someone who could work for food enables them not to work, which destroys their soul. In the long run this is a great disservice to the person.

And if we weren't taxed to death, there would be plenty of voluntary charitable contributions to cover the food, medical and housing costs of the truly needy.

Gov'ts have every incentive to give indescriminately so as to buy votes. Churches have the incentive to use contributed money wisely.

Regarding Food Stamps

I live in an area where there are a lot of people who used to live in a protectorate of the former Soviet Union. They are not only used to have their hand out all the time, but they are also used to gaming the system.

It is well known that women will pay for their groceries with Food Stamps, and then load them into their late model Mercedes in the parking lot.

These people get all kinds of handouts from the government, while living in nice houses and driving new cars.

While Dennis thinks it is immoral for poor people to take money robbed from the rich, I think it is even more immoral for well-off people to take money from people like me (who struggles to pay the rent on a one bedroom apartment) when they can easily feed and educate their children with the money they earn.

When one tries to follow the rules, in a society like the one we are becoming, one starts to feel like a chump.

Silently setting a good example only gets you ignored. It is time that we start speaking out against the lack of values in our culture, and stop grinning politely like idiots.

chris

Absolutely. I certainly agree with you that charities should take the lead, but if a government is to be involved, it should be the state.

Zippidy Doo Doo Dat

Facts:

1. cutting taxes gave the gove more revenue.
2. The democrats spent the money, not the President.
3. the financial deregulation was started by Jimmy Carter, and Clinton required the banks to provide funding to those that could not afford homes. Not Bush, but the Bush watch suffered the concequences.

The cost of the middle east has kept our gas prices from going to $8 per gallon or more. It is a bargan for the people.

Obama's has spent more than of all presidents combined, and that was in less than 100 days of the democrats controlling Congress and the Presidency. It is the Democrats that are the socialists, not the republicans.

The democrats are the one that pushed the Dept of Ed. And our school scores are the worst ever since they started meddling.

How would you have paid for all this spending?, you ask? If it was my choice there wouldn't be all the entitlements and pork spending at all. If the government ran out of money, they should do like they expect us to do, cut costs and stay within the budget as Ronald regan set up and Clinton trashed.

Regarding the Fair Tax"

I think the so-called "Fair Tax" is just another method of keeping people in the dark about exactly how much they are shelling out to the spendaholics.

For a good read on the subject, I suggest Hugh Hewitt's book The Fair Tax Fantasy.

JRBeamon
"The cost of the middle east has kept our gas prices from going to $8 per gallon or more. It is a bargan for the people."

Every point you make is from the Republican talking points memo.

Why not just drive smaller cars? How much steel do you need to be surrounded by for your daily commute?



"zapdoodat - all credibility gone."
"I'll try to get some back, one more time."

"You can't increase spending the way George W. Bush and his fellow Republicans did without having a tax increase."

The Democrat's Congress increased the spending, GWB was a wimp to not veto more of it. The President does not spend our money as you ignorantly state.

"Let's face it, the Republicans did a good job of getting this country addicted to spending more than we collect in taxes."

Again it was Clinton that got the most recent start, and then when the Democrats took over, the blocked all attempts to go on a diet. If you remember your recent history, GWB inherited a crashing economy due to the Clinton era spending spree. It was his requiring the banks to take the bad loans that cause the housing crash. And don't give him credit for the DotCom growth, it was the American people that built that, and the bankers hosed it bigtime, (Greenspan). It was Bushes tax cuts that got us out of the crash of 2000 but fueled the spending by giving the Congress more to spend, which they spent on entitlements and pork instead of costs and balancing the budget.

"In 2001, we had surplus's 'as far as the eye can see' according to Alan Greenspan. Now we have deficits as far as the eye can see."

Surplus in 2001? Uh, where do you get that?

As far as the eye can see? Well your hero Obama has spent farther than your grandchildren can see. Give it a rest.

Next you are going to blame Katrina on Bush, or 9/11.

JRBeamon
"1. cutting taxes gave the gove more revenue."

All the George W. Bush additional spending programs increased any additional revenue.

Let's not forget friends that the Speaker of the House was a Republican from January, 1995 through January, 2007.


JRBeamon
"2. The democrats spent the money, not the President."

I guess this is the Republican version of taking responsibility.


Thanks to Peter
Agreed.
Nuff said.

JRBeamon
"3. the financial deregulation was started by Jimmy Carter, and Clinton required the banks to provide funding..."

Has no one told you that the Wall Street investment banks like Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse, UBS Securities, Merrill Lynch, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley an others like American Express and AIG were outside the federal government's banking regulations?

These Wall Street investment banks got the bulk of the TARP money.


Prager...
This article is filled with vacuous logic that results in one tautology after another. Lets get real folks. If you want a country that has modern conveniences, a modern military, decent school systems, infrastructure, legal system, universities, police, fire and so on and so on, you have to find a way to pay for them. Because incomes are so unequal and have become even more unequal under right wing conservative theology, you have to go where the money is, rich folks. For instance, I pay about 25% gross Federal on my income of about 290k. Thats a bargain. My paid taxes makes up for quite a few of you who pay very little because you make very little. We can either take my money or yours. Problem is, if you paid your fair share, you would have nothing left over. As for spending, what exactly do you think our money does? It pays for people, products, services, etc. Its better to work in getting more value than about some nonsense about the size of government. What would you cut? If you said welfare, try again, its a drop in the bucket.

JRBeamon
"Surplus in 2001? Uh, where do you get that?"

Alan Greenspan wrote a book called 'Age of Turbulence.' He was appointed Fed Chairman by Ronald Reagan, remember?

He wrote this at the end of Bill Clinton's presidency.

"But now the projected surpluses were so large that debt repayment would be completed within a very few years. Yet the surpluses would continue. The CBO statisticians now envisioned the surpluses under current policy at $281 billion in 2001, $313 billion in 2002, $359 billion in 2003, and so on. Assuming no major shift in fiscal policy, the CBO expected the reducible debt to be fully paid off by 2006; any surpluses thereafter would have to be held in some form of non-federal assets. In 2006 the surplus would break $500 billion. Thereafter, more than a half trillion extra dollars would flow into Uncle Sam's coffers each year."

Conclusion, George Bush and the Republican party from 2001-2007 has brought this might country to its financial knees. It's nigh time for we Conservatives to abandon the Republican party. All those surpluses disappeared like a fart in the wind never to return, EVER!



Zippidy...
"All the George W. Bush additional spending programs increased any additional revenue."

They were not GWB's spending programs. You really need to go back and learn about how our government actually works.

Also, you obviously didn't read post #9

" Jim
The Bush tax cuts worked very well. You just have to be educated to understand why."

Many have said it. Someday maybe you will learn economics and facts, not the socialist mantra.

Give it up, you are trying to play chess with a checkers mind.

Zippidy Doo Doo Dat
"2. The democrats spent the money, not the President."

I guess this is the Republican version of taking responsibility.

--

You just admitted that congress wrote the bills and spent the money, not the president.
The Congress was dominated by Democrats then and now.

You seem to bash the Republicans and like the Marxist, Socialist Democrats and yet Obama has spent 5 times what Bush's reign did, and in Obamas first 100 days.

Frank of CA
Frank ---

Who determines what one can "afford" to be taxed?

You? Elected persons? Enacted law? Divine guidance?

Tell us all, so we can discuss further ........

Great minds blog alike
As always, Prager puts the entire issue into crystal-clear context. What a delight it is to read this man's insight.

I read another excellent piece on this very subject recently. Check it out:

http://rjmoeller.com/?p=751

JRBeamon
"The Congress was dominated by Democrats then and now."

Once again sir, let's not forget friends that the Speaker of the House was a Republican from January, 1995 through January, 2007.




Taxing issues