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Thursday, January 15, 2009
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Unconstitutional Constitution
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- Last November, 13,402,566 California voters expressed themselves for or against Proposition 8, which said that their state's Constitution should be amended to define marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman. The voters, confident that they had a right to decide this question by referendum, endorsed Proposition 8 by a margin of 52.3 to 47.7.

Now comes California's attorney general, Jerry Brown -- always a fountain of novel arguments -- with a 111-page brief asking the state Supreme Court to declare the constitutional amendment unconstitutional. He favors same-sex marriages and says the amendment violates Article 1, Section 1 of California's Constitution which enumerates "inalienable rights" to, among other things, liberty, happiness and privacy.

Brown's audacious argument is a viscous soup of natural-law and natural- rights philosophizing, utterly untethered from case law. It is designed to effect a constitutional revolution by establishing an unchallengeable judicial hegemony. He argues that:

The not-really-sovereign people cannot use the constitutionally provided amendment process to define the scope of rights enumerated in the Constitution; California's judiciary, although established by the state's Constitution, has the extra-constitutional right to supplement that enumeration by brooding about natural law, natural justice and natural rights, all arising from some authority somewhere outside the Constitution; the judiciary has the unchallengeable right to say what social policies are entailed by or proscribed by the state Constitution's declaration of rights and other rights discovered by judges.

What is natural justice? Learned and honorable people disagree. Which is why such consensus as can be reached is codified in a constitution. But Brown's reasoning would make California's Constitution subordinate to judges' flights of fancy regarding natural justice. Judges could declare unconstitutional any act of Constitution-revising by the people.

In a brief responding to Brown's, Kenneth Starr -- former federal judge, former U.S. solicitor general, current dean of Pepperdine University Law School -- notes the absurd consequences of the proposition that "the people can never amend the Constitution to overrule judicial interpretations of inalienable rights." Long ago, a California court struck down a Sunday closing law because "it infringes upon the liberty of the citizen, by restraining his right to acquire property." And a court struck down a law against scalping theater tickets because it violated rights "inherent in every natural person." By Brown's reasoning, judges could declare unconstitutional any constitutional amendment revising these judicial judgments.

Passing laws by referenda is an imprudent departure from the core principle of republican government -- representation: The people do not decide issues, they decide who shall decide. But the right of Californians to make laws through the direct democracy of referenda is as firmly established as it is promiscuously exercised.

In 2000, voters passed Proposition 22, enacting a law stipulating that marriage is a heterosexual relationship. Last May, California's Supreme Court struck down the law on the ground that there is no "compelling state interest" in not recognizing same-sex marriages under the constitutional clause guaranteeing "equal protection" of the laws. Opponents of same-sex marriage quickly gathered sufficient signatures to place on the November ballot the amendment to the constitution.

The breadth and depth of California's toleration regarding sexual lifestyles refute the worry that gays are a vulnerable minority menaced by majoritarian tyranny. Proposition 8 merely restored to California law the ancient and nearly universal definition of marriage, a definition resoundingly endorsed by the U.S. Congress (85-14 in the Senate, 342-67 in the House) and written into the laws of 47 other states. California advocates of erasing the right to same-sex domestic partnerships could not even get sufficient signatures to put their measure on the November ballot.

Just eight years ago, Proposition 22 was passed 61.4 to 38.6. The much narrower victory of Proposition 8 suggests that minds are moving toward toleration of same-sex marriage. If advocates of that have the patience required by democratic persuasion, California's ongoing conversation may end as they hope. If, however, the conversation is truncated, as Brown urges, by judicial fiat, the argument will become as embittered as the argument about abortion has been by judicial highhandedness.

Brown's reasoning would establish an unassailable tyranny of a minority -- judges -- over any California majority. Brown, 70, California's former and perhaps future governor, once was a Jesuit seminarian. One American Heritage dictionary definition of "jesuitical" is "given to subtle casuistry"; one of that dictionary's definitions of "casuistry" is "specious or excessively subtle reasoning to rationalize or mislead." These definitions, although unfair to Jesuits, are descriptive of Brown's argument.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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There is a difference...
... between what is right or just and what is legal. While I believe that the state should recognize same-sex marriage contracts on the basis of property rights (as opposed to so-called "gay rights"), I don't buy Mr. Brown's argument. The amendment to the CA Constitution authorized by Prop 8 is, in my opinion, not just. It was, however, legal.

Where Do We Go From Here?
If, as Mr. Brown asserts, an amendment to a Constitution does not amend the Constituion, what then is the purpose of the Constitution providing a Constitutional process for the enactment of amendments?

Proposition 8, being an amemdment to the Constitution, by it's very nature must amend the Constitution. Article 1, Section 1, being an already existing part of that Constituion is neccessarily amended by the new amendment.

If this is not the case then what peaceful means do the people have of altering their form of government as they may from time to time have need to do?

re: Anna
Where, precisely and with documentation, has George Will ever supported this mythical "North American Union"?

Also, if you're going to call someone a "scumbag traitor", you'd better have some iron-clad documentation.

Will has been a consistent advocate for limited, Constitutional government for 35 years. You need to do better than linking him with the Council on Foreign Relations if you're going to denigrate him.

Why they want "Gay" as the new "Black"..
It's a known fact that Civil Rights law changes would have been better targeted at the "state-level"...It's also known that no Southern State would have made those necessary changes and the voting public would not have supported them if they did...There are situations in our history where "checks and balances" work with the courts stepping in..Alas, the Prop 8 thing is NOT one of those times..The pro-gay marraige crowd wants to frame this as a "civil rights" issue...It's not. The courts should stay out of it...Civil unions should be recognized but if the voters vote "no" on Gay marraige, it's game over.

Just a bi-product of Liberalism.

Just another bi-product of Liberlism. Laws no longer mean what is written. They mean whatever one side or another wants them to mean.

This is not a nation of Laws not of men.

Which each and every attack on our legal system. More and more support for the rule of law is diminished.

How can I as a Parent instruct my children to respect the laws when the Laws are not worthy of respect?

Semper Libertas
Will is a member of CFR.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44 841

"The CFR, dedicated to one-world government, financed by a number of the largest tax-exempt foundations, and wielding such power and influence over our lives in the areas of finance, business, labor, military, education and mass communication media, should be familiar to every American concerned with good government and with preserving and defending the U.S. Constitution and our free-enterprise system. Yet, the nation's right to know machinery – the news media – usually so aggressive in exposures to inform our people, remain conspicuously silent when it comes to the CFR, its members and their activities.

THE CFR IS THE ESTABLISHMENT. Not only does it have influence and power in key decision-making positions at the highest levels of government to apply pressure from above, but it also finances and uses individuals and groups to bring pressure from below, to justify the high-level decisions for converting the United States from a sovereign constitutional republic into a servile member of a one-world dictatorship."

(BTW, admission to the club is by invitation only.)

``````

I suppose endorsing Obama for president is consistant with advocating for limited, Constitutional government??? Now that's really funny.


Tolerance or Forced Sodomization?
“Just eight years ago, Proposition 22 was passed 61.4 to 38.6. The much narrower victory of Proposition 8 suggests that minds are moving toward toleration of same-sex marriage”

No so fast Mr. Will. The nazi-sodomites in America do not believe in democracy and morality. They are attacking the very foundation of freedom and justice. Intimidation is its best tool.

It is not “toleration” toward sexual perversity, AKA homosexuality that those polls show; it is the fact that Americans are being forced to accept against their will and conscience that homosexualism is “normal” and a “civil rights” issue.

Talking about the collapse of America? Legalized sodomy is one of the causes.


The Real Issue
Our ruling elites are hastening their enslavement of us with their verbal trickery. Instead of learning true law, they go to school and learn to weave new interpreations of our language and the law to mold the constitution of the country and the states.

Meanwhile, leftist elites resort to theft of congressional and senatorial seats. No longer do voters decide elections, vote counters do.

Americans are now alone against these crafty despots and their schemes. Where's the GOP? With few exceptions no elected officials are trying to save the republic. All of them, right and left, have bought into the concept of big government control over every aspect of our lives.

It will be interesting to see how the 2nd amendemnt gets neutered when the new regiemes get settled and begin their work stripping us of our last mode of defense against them. Our right to have weapons was clearly intended as that by eloquent, but plain speaking men of the 18th century, all of whom wrote extensively on the merits of gun ownership by every swinging dick in the country.

And this right was more clearly expressed in D.C. vs. Heller in which the court defined every Gauddamn word in the effing amendment and backed its argument with extensive historical writtings.

Yet, somehow, our judicial aristocracy will find some tortured logic to authorize gun confiscation by our rulers.

Then we will have a choice. Either we submit to slavery, or we revolt and hang all of their mutilated corpses upside down from lamp posts like was done Beneto Musilini in WW II.

I'm for the latter

One of the left's goals is
to change the definition of legal words, so they can change the laws.

Bad thing to do. The rule of law only works if you don't keep changing the definition of legal terms.

Let's hope this violent minority doesn't get its way in California. The People have spoken, and Jerry Brown should drop his case.

Anna makes some valid points
I do see the CFR as an enemy of the State. They do not have America's best interests in mind. I believe their actions are seditious in nature.

Yet, their membership reads like a who's who in Washington. I have come to believe the real power rests with the CFR and other shadow groups operating to control the world. I have also come to believe that Presidents have no real power anymore, they do the bidding of the CFR. Same with Congress.

I also believe the culture war in America is designed to get us focused on anything else except them.

Lastly, secular progressives give us a sneak peek at what is to come. The goal, governmental dependency = slavery. Which is why they attack the two institutions that promote independence, the church and the family.

I like George Will, but if he is a member of the CFR, he has sold his soul.

What is going wrong with our country?
Easy answer! The Jerry Browns of this country are a big part of what is going wrong with OUR country!

Nail on the Head
JD's Handsome Son 7:09AM Jan 15
Subject: The Real Issue
Our ruling elites are hastening their enslavement of us with their verbal trickery. Instead of learning true law, they go to school and learn to weave new interpreations of our language and the law to mold the constitution of the country and the states.

HighlanderJuan 7:27AM Jan 15
One of the left's goals is
to change the definition of legal words, so they can change the laws.
*********************
Change language (definition), change perception and behavior.

Agreed and thank you both.


Unconstitutional Constution
If a provision in a constitution can be ruled unconstitutional by a subordinate court, what's the point of having a constitution? Why not just declare yourself a Kritocracy (Rule by the Courts) and call it a day? That way, the judges can rule however they want, and the people have to follow those rulings. Doesn't that sound like a fantastic idea?

For more on this topic, see my blog: http://happyjake.blogtownhall.com/2009/01/06/when_the_cons titution_is_unconstitutional.thtml

Yelling it is so, does not make it so!
Anna

Thanks for the laughs! What do you think we are a bunch of dummies? Yelling it is so, does not make it so! That is an old communist trick - saying lies loud enough and often enough and soon the poeple will believe these lies! Ha! Ha!

Schools
Didn't the CA Supreme Court recently rule that parents have no rights in determining what can or can't be taught in school?

Is George A Member Of The CFR?
He is on my listing of the CFR members - although the list is not quite up to date now. Bilderberg meeting attendee 2007, 1978 and 1981. So is George a conservative or a globalist? A Constitutionalist or one world government advocate. How can one be a true conservative and a critic of Kalifornia's leftist overturn of its constitution at the same time? Hey, it is just a job and he takes off those clothes at night. .....and he has made a pile of money speaking out of the 3 sides of his mouth.

Do we need California?
Is there anything in the US Constitution that would give the other 49 states the right to toss California out of the Union?

Jerry Brown
There's a reason Jerry was called Gov. Moonbeam

My 13 year old gets it.
Why don't liberals?
I was talking to my son about God's statutes and how they are set in stone. They do not change. Neither do the laws of nature. OUr Constitution was meant to be useful in the same way.
So my son added that since Latin is a dead language it is very useful to the medical industry.

It's the same old sin as Adam's sin. They don't want anyone telling them what to do.
My hope is in change. Duh!

Gary Allen
You are so correct!

When the tax payers in this country decide to attack those crooks in DC the house will crumble and the people will rejoice. Did anyone ever study the Fall of Rome?

We are not...
...a democracy, Prop 8 should be overturned by the court.

The fundamental problem is allowing the government to define marriage in the first place. When the government offer privilege to any sub-segment of society, it disadvantages another segment of society. That violates the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution. All the sophistry in the world will not change that simple fact!

Three cheers! Representative Goverment
Thank you George Will for reminding us of the founders commitment to representative democracy rather than referendum direct democracy. The courts should not be making these types of decision, nor should be over-use (such as California) a referendum process.Conservatives need to think through what principles of the founders they want to conserve--for me, representative government is one of those principles. Read your federalist papers, study the constitutional convention--direct democracy had intrinsic problems the founders wished to avoid.

re: Anna
Again, I'll ask you for a documented reference to where George Will has advocated the so-called "North American Union". And, based on your second post, I'll ask you to provide a documented reference to where he, as you claim, endorsed Obama for the presidency.

Criticism of McCain and/or Palin is not the same as praise for Obama.

If you're going to call someone a "treasonous scumbag" then you really need to have something better than an unreferenced opinion piece from WorldNetDaily.

The better argument against Prop. 8...
...could be the constitutional guarantee of a republican form of govt for every state. The ballot initiative process is pure democracy, which directly violates this guarantee.

However, the constitution isn't really in force, anymore, so what does it really matter?

We have an unconstitutional: war, federal welfare programs (education, social security, medicare),overseas spending, overeas bases, regulations of business, monetary system, internal police forces, funding of all sorts of things they shouldn't be funding, drug war, bailouts, etc., etc., etc.

The constitution is dead, and it probably wasn't the best idea to even create a central govt to begin with.

The anti-federalists were right.

HighlanderJuan 7:27AM Jan 15
Changing words and definitions

The word "rights" was causing difficulties, so these rights were renamed to be "privileges" and eliminated or at least restricted. For example, the right to bear arms now is a privilege requiring a permit (permission).

THE NEOCON LEGACY...
...and a BIG thanks to all the idiotic, spineless, principle-less, ignorant, phony-patriot, Israel-firster, un-American cowardly Republican dogs (masqeurading as limited-govt conservatives) who rolled over for one of the worst Presidents and Congress in history.

President of the United States: Barrack Obama-D

President of the Senate: Joe Biden-D

The 111th Congress opened Tuesday with the DEMOCRAT Party in firm control of both houses. NANCY PELOSI was reelected Speaker of the House of Representatives. The DEMOCRATS hold 256 House seats to 178 for the Republicans, with one seat vacated by Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, who will be White House chief of staff in the Obama administration. The open seat in northwest Chicago will undoubtedly be filled by a DEMOCRAT in a special election, giving the Democrats a total of 257 seats.

In the Senate DEMOCRATS have a 55 to 41 majority, with two independents who vote with the DEMOCRATS, and two vacancies, both likely to be filled by DEMOCRATS. That would give the DEMOCRATS an effective 59-41 majority.


Want to know who is to blame for this fiasco, limp-wristed Republican sheeple of America? Take a long, cold, hard look in the mirror you cowards.

Long ago Marbury v. Madison
Don't be too critical of Jerry Brown because he was basically following the same specious 'logic' as the 'Father of U.S. Socialism', President Franklin Roosevelt who saw the value of an agenda driven U.S Supreme Court with his 'court packing' plan back in 1938 -- ie, if a high authority likes the decisions of the Court, all is well, but if not, then shape things or the Court to get the desired outcome.

We ceased to be a government "of the People, by the People, and for the People" and essentially became a Noation "of the lawyers, by the lawyers and for the lawyers" back in 1803 with the Marbury v. Madison decision, altthough not so apparent back then, except to the politicians who saw an advantage by NOT over-ruling that decision.

Thomas Jefferson saw the implicit dangers of Marbury v. Madison, but it has been left 'on the books' for over 200 years. So, if the US Supreme Court can 'interpret' the US Constitution to suit any agenda of the moment using what ever 'logic' it chooses, even contradicting its own 'logic', sometimes in the same decision, in order to impose a specific agenda as the law of the land, why does this power not devolve to a State Supreme Court?

The intent of the US Constitution was 'interpreted' out of existence long, long ago.


Why is the govt allowed to license ANY
marriage, in the first place?

Great point Old Timer
You highlight the problem: the Constitution means whatever the SCOTUS says it means. Congress COULD, if of a mind, overturn SCOTUS decisions, but that would lessen the federal govt's power wouldn't it?

I wonder what the Founders would say if they came back, today?

The [for all practical purposes] unaccountable SCOTUS and single-person executive have been the two biggest failures of the constitution.

People spend more time arguing over
the Constitution than really contemplating the meaning of liberty.

I'll take liberty over the constitution any old day.

SCOTUS...
has no power without the cooperation of the people. They are not the final word regarding what is law. No legislation is enforceable without aid and abatement from the citizenry.

Are we a democracy?
I don't normally disagree with Will, but I do here. We do not live in a democracy and regardless of the will of the majority, you can not take away someone's inalienable rights. We are supposed to be a nation ruled by laws, not ruled by the whims of the majority.

Constitution v. Liberty
The Constitution was designed to give individual citizens the maximum amount of liberty, but with constraints because a society can not exist without some form of government.

However, at the time it was written, with most of the attention given to constraining 'government', along with individual liberty also was imposed individual responsibility. "Insults" or "being offended" could be settled by duels -- but there were VERY strict rules on the conduct of a duel.

The underlying premise was that if one wanted to do as they pleased, they could be putting their life on the line if they stepped too far over the line, even the unwritten but understood 'line', of what was 'acceptable' by the community.

I do not say such an arrangement was fair or just, but no law or 'Constitution' can cover what is already accepted as a standard by the community at large -- often called 'tradition'.

Let's face it, no law, written or unwritten, can protect us from every conceivable vagary of human 'individualism', otherwise, simply having a law would cause fear of breaking it, especially if we knew our life was on the line.

The problem is magnified when individuals with power impose self-serving laws or rules AGAINST the will of the community at large.

Our Nation was founded on the principle that every citizen had the right to pursue happines but did not guarantee that everyone would catch it.

Some thoughts
Re THE NEOCON LEGACY... Wow, big words. You're really intimidating. Unfortunately, you've used two terms that render your opinion pretty much meaningless, "Neocon" and "Ron Paul was right". I hope they up the dosage on your meds.

Re JMG "Are we a democracy?" You can't "take away" rights from a group that never had those rights. There is no one in California that does not have the right to be married. Proposition 8 merely codifies the definition of marriage. Any of the legal "benefits" conferred upon married couples in this state are also conferred upon any couple who has registered as domestic partners, so the argument that homosexuals are denied "rights" is specious at best.

The Constitution
The Constitution no more gives the Supreme Court the authority to void acts of Congress than it does the President. The Constitution expressly states that The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Will's dilemma defined...and solved.
Without jumping into that "viscous soup" and being eaten alive by both the pro and anti-gay rights activists, I'd like to propose a solution which would simply and clearly serve the interests of Californians. Given their historical propensity for passing by referenda numerous self-destructive constitutional amendments, wouldn't it make sense to amend the state's constitution one more time to require that any such constitutional referendum be subject to a 2/3 or even 3/4 majority for passage. Such a law might have saved California's education system and prevented the passage of other ill-conceived amendments.

Rule of Law
JMG, Will's entire point was that the right of Californians to pass constitutional amendments by majority vote is established by the rule of law. In other words, the majority vote was entirely constitutional. You object to overturning the rule of law, but that is exactly what these judges would be doing if they overturned the vote on Proposition 8.

The government provides privileges

and advantages to sub-groups all of the time. Providing these privileges and advantages are not "de facto" violations of the "equal protection" clause of the 14th amendment.

There is no constitutional violation in prohibiting same-sex marriages while providing marriages to opposite-sex couples because of the relationship of opposite-sex couples to procreation and child raising.

Rocketeer:
The issue is not about "homosexual" right, or heterosexual rights. The issue is human rights. In what way are you benefited by refusing to see that simple reality?

The flaw is the referendum/initiative
process. Today this process has been used to allow any majority to create a law that just may infringe on the rights of a minority. By the way, my comment IS NOT about the issue of gay marriage! As I understand it, in a true republican form of government ininiatives ought to be used to force the legislature to bring a matter to the floor for debate and a vote. This process is used today to take the politically unpopular decision, and resulting backlash, away from the representatives who are sworn to represent the People. When something passes they can throw up their hands and absolve themselves of any responsibility by simply stating that "the People have spoken". Of course the issue then gets thrown to the courts. Who is to blame? The People and their representatives!

I'm SHOCKED and APPALLED!!!
Well, not really.

America-hating fascist "liberals" have been declaring the constitution -- both federal and state -- "unconstitutional" for generations. BY DEFINITION, these people hate any codified laws, and prefer to just make up the laws as they go along. That way they are free to use these ever changing laws to squash any form of opposition. "You're minding your own business? HOW DARE YOU! You're under arrest for violating the 'you can't mind your own business' law I just made up two seconds ago!!"

eddie too:
The fact that government gives privilege to one group at the expense of another "all the time" does not constitute justification to continue or expand the practice. If our Constitution is to have any meaning at all, its restraints on government power must be acknowledged and respected.

This is not about sexual orientation. It is about equality before the law. The government does not have a legitimate role in defining anything beyond weights and measures, and the valuation of money.

Marriage
Others have also expressed the thought that a little more time and a majority will agree to same-sex marriage. However, marriage is not the goal.
Do you really think that all of this fight and anger is aout a word when all of the rights and priveleges of marriage are already available? This is about making everyone else accept and approve of homosexuality, and nothing short of that will do.
No sooner is same-sex marriage the law of the land than there will be a requirement that all churches perform any marriage requested, or, for starters, their tax exempt status will be withdrawn. Next will be hate crimes prosecution for any written material that offends. It will go on and on until we all submit and accept their perversion as normal.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT MARRIAGE!

Words have meaning,

and different words describe items or actions that are similar, but different.

They have already screwed up the usage of words like Qu*er and Gay, now go find your own word for two homosexuals who are committed to each other, love each other, and have performed a ceremony to advertise that union.

For example the word “Gay” is no longer useful in polite conversation between normal people, by that I mean people who do not have a certain birth defect.

That new word would also apply to any two or more people of whatever sex or relationship, who wish to live together, or at least be in constant association with each other, including the right to control healthcare, and inherit goods when death occurs, and other such things.

The dictionary says the following, so get your own words, and leave these alone.

Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife

Husband: a man joined in marriage to a woman

Wife: a woman joined in marriage to a man

If two men say they are married to each other, do they have a marriage? Answer No.

Two families pay money each month to live in a house, is it the same? No, one pays rent, the other pays a mortgage.

Two wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a bike, the other a motorcycle.

Two multi-wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a car, the other is a truck.

If a man and a woman are married to each other, do you have a marriage? Yes, of course.

Homosexuality is NOT genetic.

Homosexuality is a learned behavior that is abnormal, perverted, irresponsible and extremely unhealthy physically, emotionally and spiritually.

WHAT CONSTITUTION?
THE NOBLE EXPERIMENT HAS FAILED

.....The Founders dream of a Constitutional Representative Republic is no more ...

.....There were many mileposts along the way ...the Civil War and Lincoln's power grab of Federal Government power ...TR's socialist views and "Trust Busting" ...1913 and the 16TH & 17TH Amendments and the Federal Reserve ...and then FDR's contempt for the Constitution and admiration of Soviet Communism ...

.....We have gone too far down the road of European Socialism to turn back now ...it's over folks .....COLOSSUS

Homosexuals Want to Feel Good

We live in a society in 2008 that has an educational system that is more interested in 'Self-Esteem' than survival.

Our educational system is NO longer focused on the survivability of the student in a world of Information and High Tech, but rather how the student 'Feels' about themselves.

Homosexuals want the educational system to change the curricula to teach they are 'Normal' so they can have 'Self Esteem'.

Homosexuals want to feel 'Good' about their deviant lifestyle and think ANY criticism is intolerance.

Homosexuals have 'Pride' parades and wear badges about 'Gay Pride' and yet seemingly hate their lifestyle or they wouldn't constantly try to show the world 'How Proud They Are'.

Homosexuals are intolerant of anyone who disagrees and attack them personally and viciously, all in the name of 'Tolerance' and 'Diversity'.

Homosexuals declare all they want are the same rights of every other American Citizen - yet Homosexuals have the same rights as any other American Citizen.

Homosexuals have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex just like every other American Citizen. Homosexuals have the right to have sex with another consenting adult just like any other American Citizen.

There is a 'Cure' for hunger 'Eat', there is a 'Cure' for sleepiness go to 'Sleep', there is a 'Cure' for loneliness 'Make Friends' etc.

There is a 'Cure' for sexual deviancy, choose non-deviant sex.

Homosexuals who want to feel 'Normal' and have self-esteem, change your lifestyle or accept yourself and leave the rest of us out of the equation.

smartypants
Whether any referendum is passed by 2/3 or 3/4 it will make little difference. Look at the huge margin it passed at in 2000. Majority is not the issue here. What is the issue is the ensuing temper tantrums brought on by people who never learned how to lose. What they have done is substituted a panel of judges for Mommy and Daddy so they have someone to run to when they don't get their way.

Insighting Truth

"Subject: Rocketeer:
The issue is not about "homosexual" right, or heterosexual rights. The issue is human rights. In what way are you benefited by refusing to see that simple reality?"

No it isn't, but if it is your rights are enumerated in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Reality is it isn't a right to marry anyone. You don't have the right to marry your sister, or pet, etc. Every time the electorate says "No!" and people have a fit and label it 'Human Rights' what we get is anarchy. You have no right to marry. That is also why one must obtain a license to get married but no license is required to have a child.

Prop 8
"Just eight years ago, Proposition 22 was passed 61.4 to 38.6. The much narrower victory of Proposition 8 suggests that minds are moving toward toleration of same-sex marriage."
What Mr. Will and the MSM don't tell you is that Prop 8 was reworded. It originally said:
"only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California"
Jerry Brown took it upon himself to reword it to: "eliminates the right of same-sex couples to marry." knowing full well it would change how voters read the Propostion. The Left wing SF Chronicle headlined: "If same-sex marriage survives next week's ballot challenge, it will largely be due to state Attorney General Jerry Brown."

My point is, had the wording not been changed, Prop 8 probably would have won by a larger margin. This is another attempt by the Moonbeams and libs of this country to shove their agenda down the throats of the masses.



Jameson - You missed my point
What is advocated here is that the whims of the majority override basic rights. They do not (or should not.) What's the old quote? A democracy is just to wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner.

Retired Geek:
Homosexual behavior is learned, just as heterosexual behavior is learned. The inclination to prefer men to women is genetic in both men who are so inclined, and in women. Except of course in women who prefer women.

Now I see why you are confused.

Re: Rocketeer
Let me be more clear than perhaps I was in my original post. I am not talking about the rights of homosexuals. I'm talking about the precedent Will is suggesting we set by saying judges can not override the will of the majority. I am not judging this case as to whether the courts are within the law to override the vote. What I am disputing is Will's apparent advocacy of mob rule.

Stephen WA

As you well know, because your state has the petition process, not all petitions are successful in coming before the electorate. Let us suppose for the sake of this argument that a petition to amend the state constitution becomes wildly popular with the electorate, gets on the ballot, gets passed and is indeed unconstitutional. For example:

Article IV Sec 7 of the WA constitution states,"No idiot or insane person shall be entitled to the privileges of an elector."
The ACLU gets into this and says this rule is discriminatory against idiots. The meaning of the word having been expanded over the years, (How many of us have been called an idiot on TH comments?) the people vote to amend the constitution by deletion of the word 'idiot', thus permitting people with an IQ of 29 to become electors (contrary to the obvious intent of the original document).

My question is this: who should determine if this duly passed amendment is constitutional, or un?

The obvious answer is the Washington State Supreme Court.

I gave Will one check.
Ever since George Will flexed his snobby girly man muscles to dis' Governor Palin, I've realized that this bow tie wearing weenie is not that bright.

Where has this guy been? Associate Justice Byron White's warning in Roe v. Wade of "improvident and extravagant exercise[s]" of "raw judicial power" is 36 years old.

This article is unreadable because Will struggles with simple legal principles. When he finally gets to understand the gist of the legal arguments, he acts like he has stumbled onto something a brand new. What a genius! He should stick to boring books on baseball.

John G. Malone, Esquire

So goes the slave
Will is brilliant. I love the guy. But.

My take away from him is that when it comes to changing the rights given to a minority group that it is better to let the democratic process work than the judicial. If that is the case, then it makes sense that the same rules should have applied to slavery. Following the war, blacks should not have been freed from slavery unless the majority of whites agreed with it. Or better, since with Prop 8 we are dealing with a single state in California where the majority of voters are deciding the fate of one of their state's minority populations, then to compare apples to apples, each southern state should one-by-one have decided when or if slavery should have been abolished in their state. That way, when it happened, the majority of state citizens would have been on-board. Blacks could have waited, their time would have come.

Come on, George, you don't really view minority rights this way, do you?

This is a proper area of concern.
And we as a society need to make a choice.

Do we want people to be able to pass consitutional amendments by majority rule which remove the rights of minorities or do we want judges to hold that some rights are inalienable and cannot be taken away by the majority even by consitutional amendment?

There is danger either way.

California's amendment process makes it too easy to amend the constitution, that is certain. Fixing that would alleviate the problem somewhat, but not entirely.

I am not happy with either choice, entirely. But I guess, given the history of our nation, that I would rather trust to the wisdom of nine experienced legal scholars than the majority opinion of millions of ordinary people to protect inalienable rights. I would rather overprotect than underprotect.

If rights are inalienable, then a constitutional amendment which removes them implicitly authorizes rebellion against the government.

I do disagree with Will on marriage equality - it is an equal protection issue - both at the federal and state level. At issue in California was only the name of the union.
But in most communities and states, gays are still a disfavored minority, subject to prejudice and discrimination.

But the legal arguments have ramifications for everyone and should be carefully scrutinized in a manner which is not driven by one's position on the particular issue in this case.

Lolo1:
I have many rights beyond those few enumerated in the Bill of Rights. It even says so in that same document.

I have an unlimited right to contract. I have an unlimited right of association. I have a right to enjoy the fruits of my labor. The minute the government starts labeling things as privileges, which it can bestow on select individuals, my rights are in jeopardy.

Proposition 8 violates the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution, and as I understand it the Constitution of the State of California also. Because of that, the measure is null and void anyway, but to avoid confusion the California court should overturn it.

Jesuits & rule of law…

The origin of the Jesuits is related to the Counter Reformation within the RCC to limit the influence of the Protestant Reformation.

Now the Protestants formalized the doctrine of rule of law over the rule of kings. This revolutionary idea stated that even the king is subject to law and to be resisted as an unlawful magistrate when he violated the law. Since men are to be judged by the Law of God, the Law must be the supreme authority over men. For civil law to be lawful it must not be contrary to divine law.

Jerry Brown and company are reversing the rule of law because they think the elites know better than ‘we the people’. This is nothing other than a return to tyranny and against what it is to be American.

Homosexuals should have special tax

The Homosexual tax would help defray the costs the rest of us have to pay because of their 'Chosen Lifestyle'.

Common sexual practices among gay men lead to numerous STDs and physical injuries, some of which are virtually unknown in the heterosexual population. Lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs. In addition to diseases that may be transmitted during lesbian sex, a study at an Australian STD clinic found that lesbians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV.

It is well established that there are high rates of psychiatric illnesses, including depression, drug abuse, and suicide attempts, among gays and lesbians. This is true even in the Netherlands, where gay, lesbian and bisexual (GLB) relationships are far more socially acceptable than in the U.S. Depression and drug abuse are strongly associated with risky sexual practices that lead to serious medical problems.

The only epidemiological study to date on the life span of gay men concluded that gay and bisexual men lose up to 20 years of life expectancy.

Re: The Constitution
nick38 makes a good point, but unfortunately, what the Constitution permits or doesn't permit has been circumvented by the very people who were supposed to enforce the intent.

The ULTIMATE power was SUPPOSED to be in the hands of 'the People', to which Marbury decision essentially said "B/S!"

In addition, the Constitution sets up CO-EQUAL branches to whuich the same ruling also said "B/S!"

The Constitution -- actually, the preamble to the Bill of Rights -- indicates that elected and appointed officials are supposed to be 'public servants', not 'rulers', and the elected and apointed officials have also said "B/S!". That preamble clearly seys the entire intent of the Bill of Rights was to PREVENT government officials from abusing or misconstruing the power with which they were entrusted.

Even Amendment 13 tells us that except on conviction of a crime, no citizen may have 'involuntary servitude' imposed on them, and yet we have Amendment 16 that politicians have used to impose taxes on wages, and even the Supreme Court ruled once that such taxation was "B/S", to which Congress AND the Executive Branch said was also "B/S!"

So, when one reads that our Rights are 'unalienable' -- as the Founders stated in the Declaration of Independence and hoped to codify in the Constitution and Bill of Rights -- our government officials have been saying for over 200 years that it is all just Bull S--t there is nothing we can do about it because so many of 'We, the People" have been accepting bribes for our votes for too many years.

Retired Geek:
The injustice we experience is not done to us by the behavior of gays or lesbians. It is done to us by our government. We should not be paying for the medical care of others. That includes, gays, lesbians, smokers, drinkers, joggers, eaters, and breathers. Our responsibility for the care of others ends at our own front door. If we can get that across to the rest of America, gays are no longer a concern.

JMG: "MOB RULE?"
A referendum is mob rule? Gathering signatures, campaigning for a cause and setting an election date does not seem to resemble very closely angry hordes enflamed by fiery rhetoric and more fiery rum, nor the waving of torches, firearms and pitchforks, and the wielding of tar and feathers. The TH website today features a photograph of a Prop 8 protestor in front of the Los Angeles Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As a member of that church, the people of which in the infancy of the church endured real mobocracy, complete with "blood and fire and vapor of smoke", intent upon their "extermination" or "driving" from civilization, I find the characterization of a constitutional procedure as "mob rule" ludicrous, even grotesque, little more than hysterical hyperbole. With others I ask of Governor Moonbeam, and even some participants in this discussion, how is the implementation of a constitutionally provided procedure unconstitutional, or worse, mob rule?

Censorship?
I guess saying George is a traitor......which he is, as is ANY member of CFR, skewered someone's sacred cow?

My original post has been deleted.

Will did end up endorsing Obama. Does anyone actually disagree that Obama is a Socialist?


`````````
"Socialism is usually defined as governement ownership and/or control over the basic means of production and distribution of goods and services. When analyzed this means government control over everything, including you. All controls are "people" controls. If the government controls these areas it can eventually do just exactly as Marx set out to do-destroy the right to private property, eliminate the family and wipe out religion....

The idea that socialism is a share-the-wealth program is strictly a confidence game to get the people to surrender their freedom to an all-powerful collectivist gov. While the Insiders tell us we are building a paradise on earth, we are actually constructing a jail for ourselves."

"None Dare Call it Conspiracy", Gary Allen

`````````


“For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it might cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.” Patrick Henry

Others may prefer SNL....DENIAL is not just a river in Egypt.





InsightingTruth et al

I agree with your post but unfortunately we ALL pay through higher premiums even if the Government is NOT involved.

People who build in flood zones and areas constantly hit by Hurricanes etc. cause all of our insurance premiums to go sky high.

Non smokers get special lower rates for life and health insurance, why shouldn't non Homosexuals get special lower rates for life and health insurance?

Only a lawyer
would call an 111 page document a "brief".

Because, geek, ...
... there's no correlation between being gay and higher health costs.

Lolo1 at 12:01
My rights are enumerated in the Amendment Nine to the Constitution. It says that I have them even if the Founders failed to mention them.

George Will
Why was the media and some supposedly conservatives so rabid about taking down Palin?

I can only assume it's for three reasons. She's a Christian (I doubt she believes we all pray to the same God), the establishment doesn't own her, and worst of all she excited the base.

"Conservative" Will endorsed collectivist Obama instead.

``````

"In America," Obama said, "we have this strong bias toward individual action. You know, we idolize the John Wayne hero who comes in to correct things with both guns blazing. But individual actions, individual dreams, are not sufficient. We must unite in COLLECTIVE action, build COLLECTIVE institutions and organizations."


Obama addressed the "unemployment catastrophe" among black youth, and declared any solution "must arise from us working creatively within a MULTICULTURAL,INTERDEPENDENT and INTERNATIONAL economy." (double speak for globalism)


``````````

YES WE CAN!!!!



Retired Geek:
If the government did not regulate the insurance industry, the insurers could pick and choose their customers. If you represent a low risk to the company you would likely receive the benefit of relatively lower premiums. The opposite would also be true. All would be incentivized to reduce risk to reduce their premiums, but each would pay their own way.

You last question answers itself: there are just too few homosexuals to warrant giving heterosexuals lower rates.

Dick at 9:34
Our Founders did not form a representative democracy. They rejected democracy (mob rule) and formed a republic (government of laws) in Article 4, Section 4.

Palin
I do not know all the reasons why the media and some supposedly conservatives were so rabid about taking down Palin. However, they did and that is enough to convince me to vote for her again in 2012.

poorgrandchildren

"Lolo1 at 12:01
My rights are enumerated in the Amendment Nine to the Constitution. It says that I have them even if the Founders failed to mention them."


Really? Does that mean I have the right to shoot my neighbor because he annoys me?

Not everything is a right.

De-mob-ocracy
Is it true that Californians can pass a state constitutional amendment with a simple majority vote? If so, that is a disastrous arrangement. That is democracy, a form of government which allows any group to cram anything down everyone's throats just by buying and stealing 50.01% of the votes.

Our federal constitution has enough safeguards built in to prevent that. Our only problem there is that we have changed it into a living document and ignored it. Even then, the left and right wings of Control Freaks Unanimous scream at "the other side" when it transgresses.

MellorSJ2

"Because, geek, ...
... there's no correlation between being gay and higher health costs."


Sorry but there is a whole lot of statistics out there that disprove that. Just look at AIDS. You are at higher risk of getting AIDS being a homosexual. Don't get me started on the suicide rates, shorter life span, drug abuse stats.

Lolo1 When rights conflict
Of course I do not have the right to take away the rights of others. Just because we have degenerated from a republic into a democracy, and the majority has voted away some of my rights, that does not make it constitutional.

baseballdoc
I am having a really bad day. Well, no, more like a bad month. I agree with you completely.

My mortgage company just notified me that my escrow account is short by $2,600. Why did this happen? Because there is no end to the increase in the property taxes that I am forced to pay.

Indiana spent the entire legislative session last year passing new tax laws that were suppose to lower property tax bills, but because I live in center township in Marion County, my tax bills just keep going up.

When my husband and I bought our house seven years ago, we didn’t buy something we could not afford. We were not married at the time, and both of us were paying rent on our own apartments. Our house payment was about $150 a month lower than our combined rents had been. We got a 30-year fixed rate loan and were able to refinance to a lower rate two years later. One would think we were in great shape, yes? In seven years our property taxes have gone from $800 a year to over $3,000 a year and next year they are projecting near $4,000 a year. We don’t have that kind of money.

Indiana had the highest mortgage default rate in the country a few years ago. Gee, I wonder how that happened? Seems our politicians just can’t figure it out.

When we bought our house it was a neighborhood eyesore. The roof was almost gone, the paint was peeling and inside was much worse. We have spent every weekend, holiday and vacation the past seven years working on this house to restore it doing most of the work ourselves. We are in our fifties. It sits in a historic neighborhood, and we wanted to preserve something worthwhile for future generations. This is how our hard work is rewarded.

The United States use to be a country where people could make their dreams come true with hard work and perseverance. No more. Our government is a totalitarian, money grabbing, corrupt bunch of SOB’s who care about no one but themselves. May they all rot in hell.

Ron Paul was Not right!

"Why is the govt allowed to license ANY
marriage, in the first place?"

So you wouldn't be legally allowed to marry your sister and create future burdens on society.

Government has a duty to ensure a cohesive existence of civilization.

M Sederoff
I am truly sorry for your predicament. Now you know why Prop 13 was voted in California years ago. The same exact reason.

poorgrandchildren

"Lolo1 When rights conflict
Of course I do not have the right to take away the rights of others. Just because we have degenerated from a republic into a democracy, and the majority has voted away some of my rights, that does not make it constitutional."


I think we are on the same page and are mis-communicating. What I am telling you is under the guise of 'rights' people are creating a class of victim hood to obtain that which should never be. Deeming everything a 'right', when it isn't, is what got us to the big over bloated government we have. This is what the gay community is doing. Notice when ever someone wants something it is suddenly a 'right'? Such as health care, marriage, etc.

Gays like to tell me they are born that way so they deserve marriage anyway. That argument is specious at best. There is much evidence that serial killers are born that way...should we let them be who they are? No, because it infringes on the rights of others. Well gay marriage also infringes on the rights of others as well by unraveling what built civilization in the first place.

Until gays show me and convince me how gay marriage will benefit civilization as a whole, and not just gays, I will not endorse gay marriage. Right now I am not seeing it, especially since everything that they want can be solved legislatively such as taxes. Furthermore gay marriage infringes on rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights and most especially the 1st Amendment.

Voters get's the Vote
Sorry George, the vote Trumps any Judges order. Under our Constitution when it is a National vote and is counted, then is to be implemented, it is then amended into Law. If it was amended on the State constitution the first time and then over turned by the Supreme Court it was illegal for the gay and lesbians to get married. They can’t do that under our United States Constitution, other States can get away with it because they won’t let a vote take place. The founding Fathers knew that the act of homosexuality was a sin, evil, crime, against the body and God. Not only would this immoral behavior be tolerated it would have been abolished.

poorgrandchildren
Excuse the typo!

"Notice when ever someone wants something it is suddenly a 'right'?"

Should read: Notice that every time someone wants something it is suddenly a 'right'?

Have a Nice Day!

Lolo1 # 73, et al
Please remember that the Constitution defines those things that the Gov't may do. It does not define our rights.

Amendment #9 to the Constitution says, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.". What this means is that the gov't may NOT assume authority or rights in some area simply because it wasn't detailed in the Constitution.

Our Constitution was written (1) to define how the gov't would be structured and (2) to lay out the limitations of what that gov't could do. It constrains the gov't, not we the people.

Insighting Truth


"InsightingTruth et al

I agree with your post but unfortunately we ALL pay through higher premiums even if the Government is NOT involved.

People who build in flood zones and areas constantly hit by Hurricanes etc. cause all of our insurance premiums to go sky high.

Non smokers get special lower rates for life and health insurance, why shouldn't non Homosexuals get special lower rates for life and health insurance?"


I also agree with your post but insurance companies are in business to make money at a profit first and foremost. In that industry there will always be those that have to pick up the slack. Look at car insurance in California. Good drivers get a discount but rates overall in this state are still higher due to higher population count which puts a higher portion of non insured bad drivers on the road.

Lolo1 # 82
You wrote, "Notice that every time someone wants something it is suddenly a 'right'?
".

I so agree with your thought here. I hear that alot too. It reminds me of a person I heard once define "fanatic" as a person who passionately advocates a position that you disagree with.

Lolo1 What is wanted becomes a right
You are correct, and it often means that someone wants something at the expense of someone else--a reduction of their rights. But also notice that every time someone wants to control and limit something, the something suddenly becomes a "privilege" and is no longer a "right". Those controls, when excessive, equal fascism, and fascism is far more popular among the left and right in America than socialism.

Liberty Guy
It is not saying that their are rights that are not enumerated in the Constitution, it is saying that you cannot use the Constitution to deny the rights that are enumerated.

You cannot deny the 8th amendment, and punish someone with the death penalty for petty theft, because they already had the 5th and 6th amendment.

Lolo1 Amendment 9
You need to read Amendment 9 again. Your interpretation is not correct.

OBAMA AND CFR CONSOLIDATING POWER !!

Obama and CFR/Globalist/Oligarchs are consolidating their strangle hold on
the American people and the financial
purse strings of our economy. On way
to do this is by putting a lid on our
Freedom of Speech and by placing a
muzzle on those personalities in the
media that the American people tune in
to regularly.

Its obvious by the Marxist Main Stream
Liberal Progressive Newsmedia and their
LOVEFEST with Obama that he can do no
wrong. The Noose is tightening around
our Constitution and its just a matter
of time. Of course those who will drink
the GLOBALIST KOOLAIDE will fall in line
voluntarily like sheep or cattle going to
the slaughter or the Gas chambers of the
Socialist NEW WORLD ORDER !!

Insighting Truth

"Lolo1:
I have many rights beyond those few enumerated in the Bill of Rights. It even says so in that same document.

I have an unlimited right to contract. I have an unlimited right of association. I have a right to enjoy the fruits of my labor. The minute the government starts labeling things as privileges, which it can bestow on select individuals, my rights are in jeopardy.

Proposition 8 violates the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution, and as I understand it the Constitution of the State of California also. Because of that, the measure is null and void anyway, but to avoid confusion the California court should overturn it."


PURE HORSE PUCKEY! Please show me where gays do not have the exact same rights to marry that I do. Furthermore this is going to run up against the commerce clause right into the SCOTUS, so then we get to decide whether we are once again going to infringe upon not only states rights, but have yet another tyranny by a minority. The smallest minority not only in this country but the world.

P.S. The government labels things as privileges all of the time by requiring licenses. I don't get to practice medicine simply because I want to practice medicine. Note that one must have a business license to legally open a business. Heck you have to have a license to cut hair!! If labeling something a privilege is bad, labeling a privilege a 'right' is equally as bad.

Liberty Guy -- 2:48PM Jan 15
"Our Constitution was written (1) to define how the gov't would be structured and (2) to lay out the limitations of what that gov't could do. It constrains the gov't, not we the people."
*************************
Well said.

And Folks,
this is not the last of it, ain't socialism great?

Search the web for: Illuminatti, Rothschild, Zionism & freemasons........

the alternatives.
If the people have no redress under the law, what are their options? Revolution and/or assassination. Objectively this is what AG Brown is proposing.

More from the land of fruits and nuts...
So now, the supreme court can overrule the constitution itself? Where does it's authority come from, if not the constitution?

Can the supreme court also overrule the ledge, if it should decide to impeach them? Do we have to resort the force to break judicial tyrany?

What benefits does same-sex coupling

provide society or the government?

What benefits does opposite-sex coupling provide society or the government?

Compare the answers to these two questions. That should tell you if equal protection is being violated by restricting marriage to opposite-sex couples.

Finally, couples do not have rights. Individuals have rights.

Good ol' Jerry Brown.
I used to live in California. I watched our then dear governor and knew a few people who worked for him.After listening to the stories they told me, I came to a simple conclusion...

Jerry's just a plain old fashioned nut.

Unfortunately for California, Jerry was also the governor. And now, that same Jerry is AG.

His dad was also governor... so California was hit with the plague twice.

Man, am I glad I don't live in California any more...

Insighting,

I never said anything about sexual orientation in my postings. Why do you address me and than bring up some subject that I have not addressed on this blog.

poorgrandchildren

"Lolo1 Amendment 9
You need to read Amendment 9 again. Your interpretation is not correct."



Just because you perceive something as correct, including your interpretation, does not mean it is correct. Perhaps we will dumb down society enough that one day it will be correct, such as when Rehnquist said "Miranda" was not Constitutional, but because over time, the public perceived it as Constitutional, he would let it stand.

I used to perceive it the way you and others do. Right up until I went to Stanford School of Law and a professor cleaned my clock.

By your interpretation every single solitary thing we want is a right. Simply because it is not enumerated in the Constitution matters little, and if I agreed with that interpretation, then I would have to agree to gay marriage, universal health care, and a host of things because then rights would then be unlimited and based upon whims. By your interpretation then I have to buy dinner every day for every poor person in America since they have a right to food because we all need food to survive.

Now we know the root cause of how socialism has crept into America because rights are unlimited and never ending.





A little research....
goes a long way.

The 9th Amendment relates to:

1) Travel within the states...you don't need papers to travel from state to state.

2)Government is not the facilitator or regulator of rights enumerated in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. See post at 3:02 pm about 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.

3)It is also the basis of what we define a fair trial, as in mistrial and the ability to throw out tainted evidence.

The 9th Amendment has nothing to do with the ability to marry. The Founding Fathers never saw marriage in the realm of government but the realm of religion. The traditional rules are laid down by the rules of the church. Within the rules of the church two members of the immediate family cannot marry, and you cannot marry animals, and you cannot marry someone of the same sex. The precedent established in Western Civilization for this was by Eleanor of Aquitaine, when she obtained an annulment from Louis VII, because she found out she was more closely related to him than previously thought.

Marriage licenses are a 20th century invention as well as the right to marry for love, but notice nowhere in any license does it state love is required. Marrying for love is a perceived right but not an enumerated right. Just because you love someone does not mean you have the right to marry said person, as well as just because you don't love someone doesn't mean you cannot marry them.

Now you know why activists have worked very hard at removing God from the public square as well as perpetuating the myth that we are not a nation founded under God.

CONFIRMATION OATH
CONFIRMATION OATH

It would be of interest for Jerry Brown, once a Jesuit seminarian, to reexamine his Confirmation Oath. It is a matter of ten years olds being cognizant or being retarded. I fail to consider that the Bishop confirming Brown's group of confirmicants was confirming a bunch of ten year old retards. Jerry was probably the exception.

Rumor has it a French speaking Primate of the Catholic Church in Canada has excommunicated a senior member of the US Senate but the Letter of Excommunication has yet to be delivered.

re: "Ron Paul Was Right"
quote: "Why is the govt allowed to license ANY
marriage, in the first place?"

Marriage as recognized by the government is really just a contract between two consenting adults that specifies certain property rights and other issues. It is a legitimate function of government to enforce contracts, as that is really an extension of protecting property rights.

Unfortunately, many people want the government to provide special benefits to favored groups, and in this case it is heterosexual couples who choose to marry.

In my opinion, the problem is the word "marriage", which has some religious implications for many. I believe the government should just call everything "civil unions" and recognize them equally for same-sex couples and "traditional marriages".

re: Anna
quote: "Will did end up endorsing Obama. Does anyone actually disagree that Obama is a Socialist?"

and in another post, quote: ""Conservative" Will endorsed collectivist Obama instead."

Again I'll ask you to document where George Will "endorsed" Obama for President. You keep making the claim without backing it up with any documentation.

I would also note that as far as choosing socialism, both major candidates, as well as our current president, advocate government intrusion on the economy (unfortunately). There was not a free market capitalist running for President that had a legitimate chance of winning.

re: Lolo1
quote: "Does that mean I have the right to shoot my neighbor because he annoys me?"

===
Your rights and liberties do not extend to the act of denying someone else his rights and liberties. Shooting your neighbor is certainly an infringement on his liberties; whether or not the government recognizes his same-sex marriage contract does not, however, infringe upon your liberties.
===

quote: "Please show me where gays do not have the exact same rights to marry that I do."
===
Gays do not have the right to choose whom they want to marry and have that contract recognized by the government. You, as (ostensibly) a straight person do.

Turn it around. Say that the government ONLY recognized same-sex marriage contracts. Would you then believe that you had the same right to marry that gays did?

re: Lolo1
quote: "Does that mean I have the right to shoot my neighbor because he annoys me?"

===
Your rights and liberties do not extend to the act of denying someone else his rights and liberties. Shooting your neighbor is certainly an infringement on his liberties; whether or not the government recognizes his same-sex marriage contract does not, however, infringe upon your liberties.
===

quote: "Please show me where gays do not have the exact same rights to marry that I do."
===
Gays do not have the right to choose whom they want to marry and have that contract recognized by the government. You, as (ostensibly) a straight person do.

Turn it around. Say that the government ONLY recognized same-sex marriage contracts. Would you then believe that you had the same right to marry that gays did?

re: Lolo1
quote: "Does that mean I have the right to shoot my neighbor because he annoys me?"

===
Your rights and liberties do not extend to the act of denying someone else his rights and liberties. Shooting your neighbor is certainly an infringement on his liberties; whether or not the government recognizes his same-sex marriage contract does not, however, infringe upon your liberties.
===

quote: "Please show me where gays do not have the exact same rights to marry that I do."
===
Gays do not have the right to choose whom they want to marry and have that contract recognized by the government. You, as (ostensibly) a straight person do.

Turn it around. Say that the government ONLY recognized same-sex marriage contracts. Would you then believe that you had the same right to marry that gays did?

Illegals and Sodomites
Yes, this is California, where our fabrics of indoctrination, AKA Public Schools, is full of children of illegal Mexicans, most of them, and where our politicians are implemented sodomization as the new morality in America.

Who are the senators of California? Feinstein and Boxer. These both brownshirts are more interested in advancing political agendas from groups like the ACLU, NOW, sodomites, teacher unions, and the rest of the leftist roaches, than to comply with will of the majority of the people.

Who is out governor? The girly Schwarzenegger who pretending to be republican is carrying on the democrats agenda to transform this state in the laboratory of socialism.

Everyday illegal’s children are born while sodomites are planning to corrupt those children into homosexualism. Now check this out, illegal parents are not concerned about sodomites corrupting their own children, because they only come over here to work and their women receiving welfare benefits. They do not care who is the president; after all, in Mexico black people are not taken into consideration.

Now, with Soetoro Hussein, sodomites will be sleeping with marines and copulating openly while millions of illegals will be working as gardeners, cooks and janitors “legally” while their children will be brainwashed into sodomy. What a “Golden” state.

georgy boy
Just stop by to give you your one star georgy boy.

LMFAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Palin/Jindal in 2012!

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Peso George, Pardon Ramos and Compean before you leave office!!!

Semper Libertas sayz:
Again I'll ask you to document where George Will "endorsed" Obama for President.

I can witness that he did so while bashing Palin for VP pick.


THREESOMES
What's with this couple stuff, why stop at two?

Some Hollywood Blondozoid showed up at an awards event with her two husbands. That's marriage!

Mossad, here in NYC, was father to two babies in January 2008, a boy and a girl, born only a day apart from two different "wives" (Bronx Lebonon Hospital). When asked Mossad said: "I love babies and pray Allah for many more." Back in the Bronx building he owns his third wife was pregnant with her second child. Within a month after birth the healthy girl half the weight of the male baby died of "crib death".

The three wives, Mossad is asking his Imam for more, were all under the age of 22.

re: eddie too
Where in any of our founding documents or in the Constitution is the government charged with deciding what's beneficial for society? Our liberties don't come from the government; rather, the purpose of government is to protect our liberty. Each of us is supposed to be equal before the law.

Using your logic, why should the government recognize divorce? Allow smoking? Permit porn? Allow sex outside of marriage? Permit Al Franken to remain alive? One could argue that each of these things is a detriment to society; however, so long as they involve consenting adults and don't infringe upon the liberties of others, they really aren't anyone else's business.

In terms of marriage (and divorce), the government is simply enforcing contracts. Nothing really changes if the government decides to expand the circle of recognition to include contracts between same-sex couples, except for those couples who are signatories to same-sex marriage contracts.

re: Doc.BitterOwnerClinger
"I can witness that he did so while bashing Palin for VP pick."

I'm aware of Will's criticism of Sarah Palin, but I have seen no documentation of him endorsing Obama for President. Do you have a link?

To: Semper Libertas # 104
Lolo is correct - everyone DOES have the same rights to marry. You misunderstand when you say "Gays do not have the right to choose whom they want to marry...". No one gets to "choose" whomever they want. They have the same right to marry that I do, and the same restrictions:

- They cannot marry multiple persons at the same time
- They cannot marry a person of the same sex
- They cannot marry an underage person
- They cannot marry an animal
- They cannot marry a close relative

These restrictions apply to everyone, not just gays. If I want to marry my sister, the law says no, my civil rights have not been violated. No discrimination occurs.

Not in a Republic
In a Republic, the rights of the individual are protected against the will of the majority.

Lolo1
I do not automatically accept a law professor at Stanford School of Law as an expert on constitutional law, especially when he/she (or just you?) is wrong on the Ninth Amendment.

I never said and I repeatedly deny that my rights extend to the point of infringing upon the rights of others. That is what the majority in our "wonderful" de-mob-ocracy maintain daily in spite of the efforts of our Founders to create a republic (government of laws).

A problem in our country far more dangerous than whatever leads to socialism is the severe restriction of rights (after renaming them to be only privileges) that amounts to fascism.

CONFIRMATION OATH
CONFIRMATION OATH

It would be of interest for Jerry Brown, once a Jesuit seminarian, to reexamine his Confirmation Oath. If it be a matter of ten years olds being cognizant or being retarded I fail to consider that the Bishop confirming Brown's group of confirmicants was confirming a bunch of ten year old retards. The future to be Governor Moonbeam was most likely the exception.

Rumor has it a French speaking Primate of the Catholic Church in Canada has excommunicated a senior member of the US Senate albeit the Letter of Excommunication has yet to be personally delivered.


Semper Libertas
"Gays do not have the right to choose whom they want to marry and have that contract recognized by the government. You, as (ostensibly) a straight person do."


No I don't since I cannot marry my brother although he is of the opposite sex, not that I want to but you understand exactly what I am saying. Furthermore unraveling civilization does infringe upon my rights.

Homosexual Marriage is about a license

There are restrictions on acquiring licenses.

Not everyone can acquire a 'Medical' license because there are restrictions.

Not everyone can acquire a 'Drivers' license because there are restrictions.

Not everyone can acquire a 'Pilot' license because there are restrictions.

Not everyone can acquire a 'Marriage' license because there are restrictions.

This is NOT about 'Civil Rights' it is about restrictions on acquiring a license.

Homosexuals have exactly the same rights and protections under the Constitution and Bill of Rights as every other American Citizen.

This whole controversy is about a group of people who have chosen to be deviants and want everyone else to call them normal - it has NOTHING to do with Civil Rights.

Governments Involvement in Marriage

Why did the government become involved in marriage?

Modern Marriage started in 1753 in England and Wales and it was named the Marriage Act of 1753 or Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act and it called for the couple to be at least 21 years old and if they weren't then they needed the consent of the parent.

Before this law the couple could be as young as seven years old and get married.

They also had to get married in a church or the marriage wouldn't be legal.

The original Marriage Act was the result of the many orphans being abandoned and becoming a burden on society.

The Marriage contract made men responsible for their children relieving society from the financial burden of raising those children and placing it where it belonged.

'Collectivists' always want to take the 'Bad Decisions' and actions of individuals and place the results of those bad actions and decisions on othe American Citizens in the name of 'Sacrifice For The Common Good'.

The Marriage act NEVER had anything to do with sexual preferences but rather the protection of children - which Homosexuals cannot have by definition.

Homosexuals want the rights and benefits extended to those who conceive and bear children even though they are incapable of procreation.

Society by law, decided to extend benefits to the blind.

Analogous to what Homosexuals want by 'Homosexual Marriage' is for a sighted citizen to receive the same rights as someone who is blind.

Homosexuals immediately respond by citing instances where a man and woman are married that are incapable of procreation, because of medical issues.

Present laws do NOT require a medical exam to prove the ability of a couple to procreate before marriage which of course be a violation of privacy rights.

Every American Citizen has the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex as any other American Citizen.

THREESOMES - MORESOMES
What's this couple stuff, why be restricted to the number two? Some Hollywood Blondozoid showed up at an awards event with her "two husbands", That's marriage!

poorgrandchildren

"Lolo1
I do not automatically accept a law professor at Stanford School of Law as an expert on constitutional law, especially when he/she (or just you?) is wrong on the Ninth Amendment.

I never said and I repeatedly deny that my rights extend to the point of infringing upon the rights of others. That is what the majority in our "wonderful" de-mob-ocracy maintain daily in spite of the efforts of our Founders to create a republic (government of laws).

A problem in our country far more dangerous than whatever leads to socialism is the severe restriction of rights (after renaming them to be only privileges) that amounts to fascism."


I don't give a rip what you accept or don't accept. Until you are deemed a Constitutional scholar with the credentials to back it up forgive me if I discount you. By your definition of the 9th amendment what you abhor, according to your other posts, will come to pass. As I said before, renaming privileges to become rights is equally as bad as severe restrictions on rights deeming them privileges, and is the very thing you are arguing for. Get a new argument, see beyond the end of your nose, and do some homework.

The basis of your interpretation of the 9th amendment is that rights are unlimited. You are incorrect. If we follow your logic we open the door to every single thing being a right and will use the 9th amendment as a backdoor to implement it.

Semper Libertas
"Each of us is supposed to be equal before the law."


We ceased being equal before the law a long time ago. What you are arguing is not equality but fairness. Big difference.

If we were equal before the law then the tax code would be tossed and everyone would not only have to pay taxes, they would pay the same amount of taxes in dollars or percentages.

California Judge Jerry Brown
Jerry Brown espouses the want for 'natural justice', 'natural law', and 'natural rights'; he should consider that the natural creation of opposite sexes is the natural combination of natural cohabitation in order to naturally copulate to naturally repopulate the planet after others naturally die. Get real Jerry, one of the most destructive things to the American society is free wheeling judges who create legislation from the bench instead of doing their job which is to interpret the law and apply it fairly to all. Same sex proponents charge all they want is equal protection under the law, in reality what they desire is super protection by enacting laws in deference to those established for all. All the health care issues, legal action and such by which the same sexers complain they are being unfairly treated can be addressed under laws currently on the books. Legal contracts to assure the transfer of property, tangible property and even the proceeds from insurance policies can be easily stipulated under the current laws of the United States. If same sex couples want legal protections, then just give each other legal power of attorney rights.
That is what makes the usual arguments a moot point, leaving only the desire to be legally protected in order to have deviant sexual relations with someone of the same sex as them.

Semper Libertas
"Turn it around. Say that the government ONLY recognized same-sex marriage contracts. Would you then believe that you had the same right to marry that gays did?"


That is a shallow argument since if government only recognized same sex marriage humanity would have died out a long time ago. There would be no government of men or civilization for that matter since homosexuality cannot produce children and has never built any lasting civilization, but it has brought down quite a few.

It's sold to us
Homosexuality is a *mental health* issue, always as been, just as every other fetish. Homosexual activists have normalized the abnormal. They have been selling homosexuality to the public for years. First they just wanted to be protected from violence, then acceptance of society, then adoption of innocent children, then marriage. It will not stop here. Already homosexual activist and founder of the movement; Frank Kameny says bestiality is ok if the animal likes it.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66060

Like every other activist cause, they take one step at a time to force their views on others.

It is the tyranny of the minority - it's all over the media intentionally to promote homosexual acceptance.


Lolo1 wrote:
At post #89, I believe, "Just because you perceive something as correct, including your interpretation, does not mean it is correct."

That is pretty much the conclusion reached by Thomas Jefferson when he said that unless Congress 'changed the ruling', the Supreme Court could become the 'despotic branch' of our government.

Simply because someone has their name preceded or appended by the title "Justice", "judge" or "Magistrate" does not in any way define them as not having the flaws, biases and other less than 'nice' characteristics as the rest of us 'ordinary' persons.

OK, lolo1, let's pretend
"Sorry but there is a whole lot of statistics out there that disprove that. Just look at AIDS. You are at higher risk of getting AIDS being a homosexual. Don't get me started on the suicide rates, shorter life span, drug abuse stats."

Let's pretend that these are true.

Gays are due a refund on their social security payments. And the taxes that pay to educate your brats.

Who cares what you endorse, Lolo1?
"Until gays show me and convince me how gay marriage will benefit civilization as a whole, and not just gays, I will not endorse gay marriage."

This is the thinking of a Nazi. The individual exists only to serve the state.


This can't be happening!!!!
A sane post on TownHall!

In this case from Semper Libertas: "Marriage as recognized by the government is really just a contract between two consenting adults that specifies certain property rights and other issues. It is a legitimate function of government to enforce contracts, as that is really an extension of protecting property rights.

Unfortunately, many people want the government to provide special benefits to favored groups, and in this case it is heterosexual couples who choose to marry.

In my opinion, the problem is the word "marriage", which has some religious implications for many. I believe the government should just call everything "civil unions" and recognize them equally for same-sex couples and "traditional marriages". "

Whatever next?

Lolo1 (again) blathers
"Furthermore unraveling civilization does infringe upon my rights. "

OK. So let's ban xianity, with its continuing attempts to deny science and civil liberties for our citizens.

Lolo1 is a limitless font of idiocy
"That is a shallow argument since if government only recognized same sex marriage humanity would have died out a long time ago. There would be no government of men or civilization for that matter since homosexuality cannot produce children and has never built any lasting civilization, but it has brought down quite a few."

Ever heard of people having children out of wedlock?

Are you really this insane?

MellorSJ2
"Lolo1 is a limitless font of idiocy
"That is a shallow argument since if government only recognized same sex marriage humanity would have died out a long time ago. There would be no government of men or civilization for that matter since homosexuality cannot produce children and has never built any lasting civilization, but it has brought down quite a few."

Ever heard of people having children out of wedlock?

Are you really this insane?"




And are you really that stupid? So what was society like when people had children out of wedlock and women had no recourse? How is out of wedlock birth effecting society today?

I am going to give you a quote that I gave another angry liberal today because it is appropriate.

"Contempt is the emotion we feel for an opponent whose arguments are too formidable to refute."~Ambrose Bierce

Apparently by your emotional posts and rants towards me you are feeling contempt. As to who cares what I think, I guarantee you the gay lobby cares what I think and how I vote.

Definition
"specious or excessively subtle reasoning to rationalize or mislead."

Sounds like the definition of progressive argumentation to me....


Jim

MellorSJ2...one other thing
"Gays are due a refund on their social security payments. And the taxes that pay to educate your brats."

On this you are correct since the government should have never gotten involved in those areas to begin with. We all should get a refund. But it is apparent you went to public school, as to whether you finished or not remains to be seen. I would also bet money that you have family members getting Social Security.

Your Nazi comment is an example of feeling too much and thinking too little. It also is a classic example of the 'all about me' generation that wallows in narcissism.

OldTimer
"Simply because someone has their name preceded or appended by the title "Justice", "judge" or "Magistrate" does not in any way define them as not having the flaws, biases and other less than 'nice' characteristics as the rest of us 'ordinary' persons."

Yes and no. The proof is in the pudding. Argue any cases before the SCOTUS lately? I agree that I have met some real educated idiots in my life. However I have also met some brilliant ones as well. Just because one has the title "Justice', 'Magistrate' or 'Judge' preceding or appending their name doesn't necessarily mean they are stupid either.

re: Lolo1
quote: "We ceased being equal before the law a long time ago. What you are arguing is not equality but fairness. Big difference.

If we were equal before the law then the tax code would be tossed and everyone would not only have to pay taxes, they would pay the same amount of taxes in dollars or percentages."


Actually, it is a pretty easy argument to make that a person with a larger property ownership benefits more from having the government protect that property.

Personally, I'm a believer in the flat tax, whereby a person making 5x what I make would basically pay 5x the taxes; I'm not in favor of the intricacies of the tax code that have government providing incentives for one sort of behavior at the expense of another.

But yes, I would say that the government does spend a lot of time either granting special privileges to favored groups, or else taking property from one group to give to another. Just because it happens doesn't make it right, or just, or in line with the founding principles of our nation. Nor does the fact that we've engaged in such behavior serve as a justification for doing so moving forward.

The purpose of government is to protect individual liberty and property rights, to defend our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In doing so, the government SHOULD be treating each individual equally before the law. If you believe that the government is acting justly in denying equal protection, then you'd better hope and pray that you're never in a minority.

re: Lolo1 again
quote: "if government only recognized same sex marriage humanity would have died out a long time ago. There would be no government of men or civilization for that matter since homosexuality cannot produce children and has never built any lasting civilization, but it has brought down quite a few."

Mankind existed and reproduced long before there was government recognition of marriage contracts. And quite a few homosexual couples DO produce children, using the same methods that many "traditional" couples do: sperm donors, adoption, surrogates, etc.

Again, though, my focus is on the property rights issue. I have no real horse in this race: I'm not gay, and if I choose to get married it will be to a woman. Perhaps we'll decide to have children, perhaps not. Perhaps if we decide we WANT children, we will find that one or both of us is unable, and we'll either pursue other means or remain childless. It doesn't matter, our marriage contract will still be just as valid.

And, if for some reason our marriage contract is not recognized by the government, I'll still consider her my wife. We'll get married in a church that DOES recognize the marriage.

I'm not Jewish, so a Rabbi won't perform the wedding in a synagogue; I won't sue them over it, as they are not infringing upon my liberties.

I'm not Catholic, so a priest won't perform the wedding in a cathedral, and I won't sue them over it, as they are not infringing upon my liberties.

I know little about the Amish faith, but I'm guessing it is the same story there. And so on.

Nobody's liberties are infringed upon by the government recognizing a marriage between two men or two women.

Contempt for Lolo1
And I'll give you another quote (abridged), this time from Robert C. Solomon who places contempt on the same continuum as resentment and anger.

He argues that the differences between the three emotions are that resentment is directed toward a higher status individual; anger is directed toward an equal status individual; and contempt is directed toward a lower status individual. Contempt is often brought about by a combination of anger and disgust.

-- end quote (from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt)

I'd say that sums it up very nicely. You're obviously educated and capable of constructing a sentence (amazing in itself on TownHall), so you would be of equal or lower status.

Yet you persist in a fantasy that is damaging to millions of Americans. That's fair enough--except that you claim special privileges because your sky pixie told you so.

Sure I'm angry. Who wouldn't be if they were prevented from marrying the person they love? And I can assure you I feel contempt. (Need I explain why?)

If you have an insurmountable argument, let's hear it. Or better yet, just wait for the whole issue to go to an Obama-appointed Supreme Court.

Arguement to where?
Brown is up to his usual nutty ways - the fruit fly governor when I lived in CA and always off on his logic. This same sex marriage issue is not about fairness, rights or justice. It is about gay rights advocates pushing their ideology. There are other ways to get what they want without destroying the definition of marriage if that was their real intent. I see no value added in redefining marriage nor do I see where, if gay marriage is approved, that the definition will end with just two of anything. When we leave the realm of the natural law, logic and principles for some distorted emotion, we are on a wild merrygo round to nowhere.

'Judicial' Primacy
C'mon George. Give me a break.

Social engrng is de rigeur for lib 'judges', has been for 50 yrs, at least.

What aspect of Natural Law (Moonbeam's attempts at establishing homosexual 'marriage', in opposition to Natural Law (part of it anyhow), that pertaining to the obvious and natural paring of men and women in marriage - the "...the ancient and nearly universal definition of marriage..." - this particular, latest Brownian emanation emerges from I'd like to know (has a lot in common with Brownian motion, I think).

So, c'mon George, get with it. Brown's pretty loopy, marginally nuts, and always has been. But this latest he's expressed is somehow a unique viewpoint, exclusive to the lib 'judges' comprising the majority of the judiciary?

Give me a break. Who's bs'ing whom?

There's nothing new going on here, among the libs generally, the ACLU, their 'judicial' minions, not even with the crazy Moonbeam. When have they ever thought differently? It's remarkable stupidity that people put up with it and have for so long now.

Brown's efforts in emancipating the judiciary from any sort of submission to the Constitution are a day late and a dollar short. Lib 'judges', comprising the majority of the judiciary, haven't paid any attention to the Constitution and certainly not to ideas as adolescent - in their minds - as Natural Law for as long as anyone can remember. They're lawless entities accountable only to themselves - certainly not to the Explicit and Natural Law of God, the Constitution or the enacted body of law generally. In their own minds.

Moonbeam
In addition to which Moonbeam might try doing his job. He's supposed to defend the law. Of course judges aren't supposed to make law either. But that doesn't seem to slow up either entity much. Hard to believe people are dumb enough to put up with it.

re: Al
quote: "This same sex marriage issue is not about fairness, rights or justice. It is about gay rights advocates pushing their ideology. There are other ways to get what they want without destroying the definition of marriage if that was their real intent. I see no value added in redefining marriage nor do I see where, if gay marriage is approved, that the definition will end with just two of anything."

Actually, if the government begins recognizing marriage contracts between same-sex couples, no ideology has been forced on anyone; there is no impact on "traditional" married couples -- their status has not changed, nor have the benefits of having their contract recognized by the government. Nobody has been forced to do anything. Nothing has been "destroyed".

As for whether or not you see value in same-sex marriage, I don't see where that is relevant to the discussion at all. The standard for judging government action is not whehter or not you or I find "value" in it, but whether or not it protects or expands liberty versus whether it infringes upon it. Having the government recognize same-sex marriage contracts does nothing to infringe upon the liberty or property of anyone.

UN-CONSTITUTIONAL ?
Gays must not have a very high opinion of themselves.
reminds me of little children, what he's got, i want it to....feeling leftout ?
Does the WORD marriage make you want it too?
look, you are not stupid....granting marriage,
a (ceremony) is still not going to do anything more than a "civil union" would, same legal rights, and such a fuss is made over it....

i will never understand that 'mad' urge to have what the other person has...Be happy with yourself, stop always wanting something....
life is to short to worry and keep having this
feeling like you've been left out...the door is open, bring your partner in, drink, dance, toast, enjoy, but please quit making a big fuss over a simple "hitch- up" ceremony that you could have with a civil-union, its nothing more than joining partners, both homo and hetero.....

Everybody knows about gay lifestyle, so be happy
cause the sun will shine on you just as hot as on straight folks....grow up....


re: Bigjer
So if the tables were turned, and the government ONLY recognized same-sex marriage contracts, would your advice be the same to straight people?

The issue isn't "gay rights", but property rights.
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