LARRY KUDLOW, host:
And most important, at the top, PIMCO's Bill Gross, one of America's most
famous and successful investors. He's generating big buzz today with his
superimportant and much talked about interview in The Wall Street Journal and
elsewhere. Mr. Gross says he has, quote, "lost sleep," end quote, over a bad
bet on Treasury rates. He acknowledged that selling all his funds, Treasury
holdings last February was a, quote, "mistake." And he went on to say, and I
quote, "We try to be very intellectually honest and honest with the public,"
All right, for my part, I just want to say to my old friend Bill Gross that I
have nothing but admiration for his taking ownership and admitting a mistake.
We all make them. And by the way, he's setting a very good example for the
rest of us. That's just my take.
Anyway, it is always a real pleasure, especially tonight, to welcome back to
the show a special Kudlow exclusive, Bill Gross. He's founder and co-chief
investment officer of PIMCO.
All right, Bill. You admit to a big Treasury bond miss. Rates this year went
way down, not up. Can you tell us, please, why the interviews right now and
what message are you sending?
Mr. BILL GROSS: Well, I, you know, I think at PIMCO we always try and be
open with the press and the public. I mean, isn't that what voters want from
their politicians? Mohamed El-Erian, our CEO, write several op-eds a week. I
tweet daily and publish a monthly investment outlook, which came out this
morning, by the way. So we try to give an honest answer to an honest
And by the way, in terms of the interview with the Journal and with the FT,
what I said was that--something that I think all bond and--bond managers would
say if they were honest. They would say, `Wish I'd own more Treasuries.' To
say otherwise would be to say something like you'd wished you bet on the Miami
Heat instead of the Dallas Mavericks. I mean, it's obvious who won, right?
KUDLOW: Obviously wrong. All right, well, anyway, you're very outspoken and
I respect you for it.
Listen, you were here--I looked back--June 8th we spoke. So what's that?
Three months ago. At that point, Bill, you repeated the call to get out of
bonds. Now the bonds rally more or less from 3 percent to 2 percent, today
they're at 2.20. What went wrong? How do you assess what went wrong with
your bond call?
Mr. GROSS: Well, first of all, I didn't say get out of bonds. I said get
out of Treasuries and move...
Mr. GROSS: ...and move into Canadian bonds and to Australian bonds and other
alternatives. What went wrong in terms of the Treasury call from 3 percent
down to close to 2 percent? Well, the economy slowed down dramatically. We
had a freeze-up, so to speak, in terms of Washington with the politicians and
policy options. It was recognized that fiscal stimulation, you know,
certainly wasn't going to be something undertaken for the next six to 12
months, if at all. It was recognized that the Fed was running out of policy
options and so the economy was slowing down and was--seemed to be slowing
almost permanently in terms of a 0 to 2 percent growth category.
KUDLOW: Have you basically lost confidence in the economy? You mention, I
think, in the FT article, Bill, you call it, quote, "a new normal minus." Have
you lost all confidence in our capacity to grow the economy?
Mr. GROSS: Well, no. You know, but the problem I have with the free market
capitalism, Larry, which is your philosophy, is not with the concept. In
fact, you know, PIMCO is an epitome of its historical thrust. We're very
successful and because of free market capitalism. But the problem I have is
with its apparent exhaustion in the face of three equally dynamic economic
influences. Let me mention them briefly.
First of all globalization has weakened American and developed economies by
syphoning off investment and, more importantly, jobs to emerging nations at
1/10th the wage cost. Take China, for example, Free market capitalism, in
other words, is working for China, it's working for Brazil, but it's not
working for America or Euroland.
Secondly and just briefly, free market capitalism depends on a balanced market
between labor and capital. And clearly we're reaching a point where
impoverished Main Street cannot afford to buy the goods that capitalism so
magnificently produces. So I think there's an exhaustion here in terms of
free market capitalism that has worked so well for 20 to 30 to 40, 50 years,
but now is reaching structural impediments that prevent, you know, strong
growth that we're used to.
KUDLOW: I want to come back to that towards the back end, Bill, but I just
want to narrow down for a moment. I want to drill down. According to the
reports, you are buying Treasuries. You're accumulating Treasuries. You have
a net positive exposure for the first time. Let me ask you, what if the
bond--the Treasury market has discounted a recession that doesn't happen? Are
you chasing the market? Is there a risk that the rate hikes that you foresaw
this year might still come to pass if the economy surprises on the upside?
Mr. GROSS: Well, that's possible. We read in the Fed minutes today of the
last meeting that the--that the two-year 0 percent or 25 basis point Fed funds
level is conditional, and we know that there are hawks, that there are doves,
and that should the economy recover to a 2 to 3 to 4 percent rate, that, you
know, perhaps inflation looms larger in terms of a threat. So anything is
possible. What I would say at the moment, though, is since the economy is
really moving closer to the zero level, since inflation probably will come
down gradually, you know, the Fed is at 0 percent for the next two years and
perhaps even longer than that, and that determines significantly the level of
Treasury rates in five-year space, 10-year space and even 30-year space.
KUDLOW: But, you know, it's interesting. We had Byron Wein on, a
distinguished investment guru on his own part. He predicted the S&P would
rally to 1400. OK? It's just over 1200 today, as you know, If that sort of
thing happened with better corporate profits, even consumer sentiment, which
tanked today but people are still buying washing machines and cars, retail
sales are holding up. If you had a big rally in stocks, the risk trade is
back on. That'll come out of Treasury bonds, and those could--that could
drive those bond rates back to 3 percent. You're buying bonds now. Are you
worried that there's a potential for whiplash?
Mr. GROSS: Well, I'm suggesting that the probability--that the high
probability is for interest rates to stay low for a long time. I mean, Byron
Wein basically is a a mean reversion cyclical type of--type of analyst. What
we're suggesting is that there are structural impediments to the US economy to
develop market economies that will prevent growth in the 3 to 4 percent
Let me ask you, in terms of consumerism, in terms of the US consumer, if
unemployment stays at 9 percent plus and if wage gains--if real wage gains are
nonexistent, then were is the spending power coming from? It has to come from
the consumer as opposed to businesses. Businesses are waiting on the
consumer. The consumer is waiting on business. We have what we call a
liquidity trap. So what we're suggesting is not a reversion to the mean, not
a cyclical upthrust, but basically a structural impediment that produces
growth in the 0 to 2 percent category for a long time. Not just in the US,
but in Euroland, as well.
KUDLOW: All right. So let me--have you had any trouble with your fund--I
guess the Total Return Fund, because of the bond miss this year, rates went
down instead of up? Have people withdrawn from the fund? What are your
customers saying right now?
Mr. GROSS: We have a $245 billion customer base. You know, that customer
base is growing. We just got a billion dollar contribution from a large
corporation this week. There's been no lack of confidence. You know, to
suggest that a six to seven month timeframe for the PIMCO Total Return Fund,
which has produced results for the last 20, 30 or 35 years, is, you know, a
stretch of the imagination. We continue to produce fine results for our
KUDLOW: Oh, that's what everybody says. That's--everybody I talked to today
on this story said exactly what you said. Your record down through the years
has been superb.
Let me ask you this, are you still buying some corporate bonds and are you
still buying foreign bonds? You talked to me about that when you last
Mr. GROSS: Well, corporate bonds of the highest quality, yes. And that
would be A and AA-types of corporates, not high-yield bonds because they don't
do well, you know, if we near the recessionary level of 0 percent. In terms
of foreign bonds, let me just cite the comparison: a five-year Treasury in
the United States at 1 percent, actually little bit less; in Canada 1.7
percent; in Euroland 2.1 percent; in Mexico 5.4 percent; in Brazil 11 percent.
And these are countries, by the way, Larry, which have what we call clean or
dirty shirts. Mexico has half the debt of the United States. Brazil has half
the debt of the United States and has treasury reserves as opposed to
deficits. And so these are countries with higher yields and better balance
KUDLOW: All right, last one. I'm going to come back to where you were on the
breakdown of free market capitalism, which is fair enough. I would
acknowledge that America's economy has been on the decline now for about 10
years. But I ask you, Bill, everybody is so profitable. Businesses are so
profitable, so much cash. Banks have more liquidity than they know what to do
with. Is it possible there's a buyer's strike, that there's a capital strike,
that the spending and taxing and regulatory threats out of Washington are
really the problem, not the free market capitalist system?
Mr. GROSS: Well, I'd have to say that that doesn't help. I mean, let's come
together on that point that regulation and too much of it--that taxation in
terms of the necessary reforms that probably lie ahead, you know, don't help
either in terms of the current economic environment. What I would say in
terms of corporate tax reform is, yes, let's reform taxes, let's reform
corporate taxes and let's reform individual taxes. But at the same token,
let's not lower them, because corporate taxes are 10 percent of total federal
revenues. They're at an all-time low, Larry. And to suggest that
corporations are the poor baby in this particular story, I think, is an
KUDLOW: All right. I'm going to leave that for the next discussion we have.
We have much more to discuss on corporate tax reform. But, Bill Gross, thank
you for your honesty. Thank you for your forthrightness.
Mr. GROSS: Thank you, Larry.
KUDLOW: And thanks for coming on tonight. I appreciate it.
Mr. GROSS: Yeah.
The full interview transcript and video follow below.
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